Tuesday, December 23, 2008

TONIGHT MAY WELL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT SHOW I HAVE EVER DONE!

"We must make the best use of all the resources at our disposal. Collectively these are substantial: as the world's largest aid donor we already make an important financial contribution to aid programmes and to humanitarian and reconstruction assistance. We have a global diplomatic network more than twice as big as that of the US State Department. We can use our diplomatic, economic and financial muscle to influence the behaviour of recalcitrant parties and aggressors. But until now we have been unable to add military means to the measures available. This is now changing. Our aim is to integrate our military forces into a global crisis management strategy." Javier Solana, September 2000

Dear Readers and Listeners:

I just hung up from talking with NIKI RAAPANA, tonight's guest, only 53 minutes from now on MY PERSPECTIVE. I am convinced that Niki, an Alaskan, and I have been long looking at two sides of the same elephant. She has CRITICAL pieces of the puzzle which has a political name of "Communitarianism." One of their big games is IMPLEMENTING Agenda 21 of "sustainable development." They are so very far along, as Joan Veon told us Tuesday. I don't know how I missed Niki's work before, but I am glad I found her. This show is CRITICAL! Chatroom participation would be very valuable to me tonight. It always is, but this night more than ever!

Here is a link to her basic Youtube video. Good watching before we start!

Tune in and stay tuned!

Constance

322 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 322 of 322
Anonymous said...

Another man involved with the enneagram which is being used as a personality tool. Read how he connects it with sufim, Kabbalah, the mystery schools:

http://www.arica.org/articles/trletter.cfm

more junk on the sacred geometry and ennegrams, spirals, mandalas, Kabbalah:

http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/j4selfcc.html

http://www.hurleydonson.com/origins.htm

The article connects mystical traditions..
Joyce

Anonymous said...

I can see the Catholic-haters are back again with a vengeance.

Looking forward to an eventful 2009 at this blog....

Anonymous said...

Dear Len,

What have YOU been taught about the origins of the Kabbalah....and about those who suggest that it may have originated with Elias the Prophet?

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

Until you can quote me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish" Rule of Faith there is nothing you can say that will convince me that your Rule of Faith is the correct one because your argument regarding your Rule of Faith stands or falls on whether or not you can find it CLEARLY STATED in the Bible.

In the meantime, I am going to repost the link to Mark Shea's article WHAT IS SACRED TRADITION?

http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/a783x4

By the way, before Mark Shea entered the Catholic Church, he was a Protestant. So if anyone understands where Protestants are coming from, Mark does.

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

Don't forget at the Constance Cumbey blog there are Christians and then there are Christians™

If you are confused about which group you fall into Yeshua (speaking through Joyce) will be happy to tell you.

LOL

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 11:20 A.M.

Regarding your comment If you are confused about which group you fall into Yeshua (speaking through Joyce) will be happy to tell you.

Fer Sure! :-)

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,
Excuse me but the Pope doesn't have the keys to the Kingdom and mysticism is bad, Catholic, Jewish, Messianic, Evangelical, Emergent or otherwise.

The other thing that I wonder about is, do you, if you're a Catholic think Len and Dorothy need Yeshua? The Catholics have been all over any remarks that lift up Yeshua/Jesus, which is sad. Instead of affirming Jewish mysticim, Catholics should be lifting up the Savior they claim they believe in... just a thought?

Joyce

Anonymous said...

Hey Joyce,

Anonymous here. Someone told me that you could recommend some really good vodkas.

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

Until you can quote me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish" Rule of Faith there is nothing you can say that will convince me that your Rule of Faith is the correct one because your argument regarding your Rule of Faith stands or falls on whether or not you can find it CLEARLY STATED in the Bible.

In the meantime, I am going to repost the link to Mark Shea's article WHAT IS SACRED TRADITION?

http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/a783x4

By the way, before Mark Shea entered the Catholic Church, he was a Protestant. So if anyone understands where Protestants are coming from, Mark does.

Anonymous said...

Hey Suse (11:50):

My buddy also reads this site. He and I have a bet going. He believes there is a slit carved into the side of Joyce's head (similar to the kind found in what my daughter calls a "piggy bank" or in a slot machine) and that if you feed in enough silver continental dollars, Joyce will say "Islam is the light."

Anonymous said...

Tradition

Mary Ann Collins
(A Former Catholic Nun)

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/Tradition.html

Anonymous said...

Hey you!

Anonymous 12:37!

http://catholic-converts.blogspot.com/

http://www.ancient-future.net/conversion.html

http://www.ancient-future.net/conversion.html

http://www.pathtorome.com/

http://www.catholic-convert.com/

etc. etc. etc. there are so many of these great stories my fingers would freeze from numbness and my heart overflow with warmth....

Anonymous said...

Forgot this one, very remiss of me:

http://www.chnetwork.org/index.html

Lalalalalalalalalala

Anonymous said...

Well, Susanna & Len:

Now, let that be a lesson to you - this is now "Joyce's blog" - and so every intelligent statement that either of you make will be both challenged and "corrected" by Joyce!

Constance, how long are you going to allow this OUTRAGE to continue?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:27

Scripture AND Sacred Tradition! You only had it half right.
_________________________________

Oh and by the way......

WILL THE REAL MARY ANN COLLINS PLEASE STAND UP?

Critically questioning the existence of ex-nun Mary Ann Collins

http://tinyurl.com/2q5tau

LOL Gee. I wonder if she is related in any way to Maria Monk?

Anonymous said...

Dear Susanna:

Please keep on posting and IGNORE Joyce's attempts to antagonize you.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymice" 1:10 and 1:19

All I have to say is:

"Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulez"

:-)

Anonymous said...

Joyce
I'm glad to hear from you. You are a courageous woman.
God bless you.

Anonymous said...

Off topic slightly, but wondered what Susanna and the other Catholics have to say about Nikki Rapana's attitude about Catholicism?

Since she is the subject of this thread, it might be a more lucrative discussion to explore whether or not Nikki's remarks about Catholicism are relevant, in Catholic opinion.

Anonymous said...

I just KNEW if I looked I would find this. Feast your eyes. Maria Monk is my own special "favorite."


"TRADITION" OF FAKE NUNS

A list of people who have posed as nuns to spread disinformation about the Catholic Church.

http://tinyurl.com/a4s93a

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

You are a very courageous woman. God says you will reap a harvest if you don't give up. Galatians 6:18.

Many appreciate you here, so don't give up the good work you are doing.

Anonymous said...

Susanna,
I've already had the discussion with you and I've posted all the Scriptures that explain why Peter is not the first Pope, etc. as well as the verses that are critical of putting men's traditions over God's Word.. so there's no point in going there again.

If you believe that Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah or the Savior, why are you affirming a Jew in his Jewish mysticism? Another words, you were eager to jump on the point about what you had in common with Len, but not as eager to touch the point of the clear and obvious disagreement that you should have about the way Len talks about your Savior..

That was really the point of my comment. I find Catholics on the blog are quick to criticize me for sharing about the Messiah, but never seem to to lift up the name of Yeshua/Jesus. It's just something I find very interesting. So I'm not expecting you to change your position about the Catholic faith, unless God changes your heart about that. I'm a bit surprised to hear you so quickly defend mysticism, but then again, maybe not..

I have no intention of starting a Catholicism debate with you or anyone else, but I will continue to research the subject of mysticism, so I will probably mention Catholicism along with Kabbalah, Sufism etc...

My question to you was do you think Jews need to have Yeshua in their lives, and if so, should they become Catholic...i.e. dispose of Torah and follow the teachings of the Pope, since according to your theology he is infallible.

Let me elaborate.. Do you think Jews should eat pork? Do you think Jews should worship on Sunday? Do you think Jews should celebrate Christmas. Should Jews go to synagogue or to the Mass? Should they eat the wafer, that you say has been transformed literally in Jesus' body, or should they eat matzah at Passover, in remembrance of their affliction when they were slaves in Egypt?

This was more or less the gist of my question to you, not do you agree with Catholicism.. That I already know the answer to..

Thanks,

Joyce

Anonymous said...

Anoymous at 1:52,

I agree, Joyce is the best. Can't we find out who these Catholics are and throw them in a FEMA camp or at least cut off their internet access or something?

Maybe Constance could help, she's a Bible-believer, isn't she? I'm just wondering...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1:33 bless you too.. Joyce

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

Until you can quote me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish" Rule of Faith there is nothing you can say that will convince me that your Rule of Faith is the correct one because your argument regarding your Rule of Faith stands or falls on whether or not you can find it CLEARLY STATED in the Bible.

In the meantime, I am going to repost the link to Mark Shea's article WHAT IS SACRED TRADITION?

http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/a783x4

By the way, before Mark Shea entered the Catholic Church, he was a Protestant. So if anyone understands where Protestants are coming from, Mark does.

Anonymous said...

"Why do you follow the traditions
of men, and not the commandments
of God ?" _Jesus Christ

Anonymous said...

Susanna,
It's not necessary to repeat myself. I quoted Scripture to you already, but if you want to avoid the question about Len, I most certainly understand.

A clear testimony for Yeshua is probably not the central issue anyway..

Thanks for making my point..

Joyce

Shem1777 said...

Anonymous 9:42 P.M.,

I was just using the statement to make a point of people in general thinking of communitarianism as innocuous, as communitarianism is a euphemism for communism, which has proven to be noxious. Nothing on you personally mate.

All the confusion sown by N A thinkers/planners is sown with the intent to erase the true Yahweh/Yahshua from the present kingdoms of this world. This is something Yahweh laughs at.

All the Yahweh ordained nations, and true diversity, not bumper sticker diversity, is what stands in their way to rebuilding their tower of Babylon. were they wish to practise their now less secret craft, to their own glory.

The majority of the population are attracted to this "sensual anointing", because of the conditions created by the fall.

There is no scapegoat group of people. Every definable group of people have righteous, and unrighteous in their ranks.

I do not think Niki Raapana is a person of bad intent. All our interactions of a social/political nature do not take place in the Holy of Hollies. When enough words are sown on any subject its sure to contain a thread of the impure.

Perhaps we all should not throw everyone so quickly to the lions. Rather we should with some consideration and tact,challenge the person with direct, but thoughtful questions. Considering our own imperfections, and misconceptions, that i have way more of than id like to.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and P.S. Joyce,

Nice try, Joyce, but your "victim fantasy" isn't going to fly.

As anyone reading this thread can see for themselves, I was addressing Len and not you when I asked him what he knew about the idea that the Kabbalah had its origins with the Prophet Elias.

I didn't criticize you or anything you said. In fact, I didn't even mention your name. I was discussing a form of mysticism. If you think it is totally "evil" far be it from me to rain on your parade, but don't come getting in my face when I want to have a conversation with another blogger that you happen to be trying to "convert."

As for your saying If you believe that Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah or the Savior, why are you affirming a Jew in his Jewish mysticism?

Since you yourself have stated that you are not a Christian, I would far rather affirm a Jew in his AUTHENTIC Judaism then affirm him in accepting a false "Messiah."

The Savior that I worship is Jesus Christ who is truly God and truly man. I also worship the Holy Trinity. I am beginning to have some serious doubts that the Messiah I worship is the same as the one you claim to worship.


Finally, you can claim all you want that you have "proved" from the Scriptures that Peter was not the first Pope, but since Scripture is itself the written part of the Sacred Tradition that began with Peter and the Apostles, you haven't "proven" anything. Actually, every time you use Scripture while denying Sacred Tradition, you contradict yourself.

But, like you, I am not going to get into a Catholic debate either.

I will just say once more that
until you can quote me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish?" Rule of Faith there is nothing you can say that will convince me that your Rule of Faith is the correct one because your argument regarding your Rule of Faith stands or falls on whether or not you can find it CLEARLY STATED in the Bible. And there is no such passage in the Bible.

Anonymous said...

Paul,

You keep quoting that book. I do not think it means what you think it means.

You might check with Joyce, maybe she would verify with Yeshua if it does.

Anonymous said...

Paul,

Why do you follow a religion that was founded by some fat horny old English king in in the sixteenth c. instead of the one founded by the Lord himself?

Just wondering....not that I would expect you to be able to answer that or anything. I'm just testifying to the Truth, I can't help myself.

Oh and one more thing...you seem to have a lot of unresolved anger. Sorry but I can't help notice it. I guess it's better that you take it out on a computer keyboard rather than in your "real life" lol. You know, if you ask Jesus to fill your heart with His love, he will do that you know...

Maybe you need a big fat turkey leg to chomp on or something.

Anonymous said...

Buttercup:

That wasn't very nice.

Anonymous said...

Buttercup:

That wasn't very nice.

Anonymous said...

EU's Solana condemns "unacceptable" Palestinian deaths

'The current Israeli strikes are inflicting an unacceptable toll on Palestinian civilians and will only worsen the humanitarian crisis as well as complicate the search for a peaceful solution,' EU High Representative Javier Solana said in a statement.

'I call for an immediate cessation of military actions on both sides. The EU has repeatedly condemned rocket attacks against Israel,' the statement said


http://tinyurl.com/97oohf

found this on FP.

JD

Anonymous said...

YG,

I don't see them as the center focus. I think sometimes people are conditioned to be afraid to be an antisemite. I am not against the Jews, but we also cannot ignore so much of our culture that comes from Judaism. Look at our founding fathers, (I am assuming you are in America) and look at how they set up the government. It is taken right out of the writings of Moses. Our country was formed by men that were very highly educated, most read and wrote Hebrew, Greek and Latin. Now take this into consideration of the world and the impact that christianity has had. It would not be good to be afraid to call things as they appear. I don't see anything in Niki's site declare Jesus to be King, so from her perspective I am greatful for her work and hope many will see that...something...is happening here, and what it is aint exactly clear. As followers of Yeshua we know what is happening and what will happen, it is clear. Some people choos to fight such happenings as she seems to indicate, others like myself, choose to watch and inform those around when the opputunity arises so that I may lead the to the True Truth, the great consiracy that is satan trying to stop the greater inevitable conspiracy which is The Messiah, Jesus Christ, who sits on the throne. Who, by the way, has not failed, but fulfills perfectly. As long as your faith is in the right place...It reminds me of the story of the ten lepers. Now, this is off the top of my head so forgive anything I mess up. Now it happened as Jesus was going to Jerusalem that He passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. As He was about the enter a certain city ten lepers stood afar off who were their to meet Him. Lifting their voices they said "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us." Jesus, seeing the ten lepers said "go and show yourselves to the priests" as they went, they were healed. One, realizing he was healed, returned glorifying God loudly and fell on his face at the feet of Jesus thanking Him. And he was a samaritan. Jesus said "were their not tewn of you? Where are the nine? was no one found to returned and glorify God except this foreigner? arise and go your way, your faith has healed you."

You see, when first reading this story you would think it was about faith. The truth is it is about misplaced faith by ninety percent. Only one had his faith placed where it glorifies God, and that is in The Son.

Bill

Anonymous said...

From reading the most current articles, it appears as if all parties are (at least on the surface) ready to oust Hamas. The next couple months are going to be intersting. The PA is aiming to take control of Gaza, the Arab League is ready to strike, things are certainly heating up.


http://tinyurl.com/7hrlvp

http://tinyurl.com/9demx6

http://tinyurl.com/9f9yty

JD

Anonymous said...

ISRAEL POUNDS GAZA FOR SECOND DAY

Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:31pm EST

http://tinyurl.com/axlvr7

Anonymous said...

Did any other oldsters note that article in the latest AARP Magazine suggesting some alternatives for pain control such as Reiki? The article told the story of a woman whose pain did not go away with traditional treatment. Comments on how she should have handled it?

Shem1777 said...

Maybe Obama will breathe fresh life into the covenant with many that Solana built? Good timing for that to occur soon.

Anonymous said...

Young Grasshopper,

You noted: "I have been getting a sick feeling that there are two distinct groups fighting for power and world domination."

Yes, I have addressed that question myself, and discovered the answer among the voluminous works of the New Age queen herself, Alice A. Bailey.

There is a Great Deception going on (are you with me so far?). Within that major deception there are numerous lesser deceptions, intrigues, and subterfuges, etc. Among all that there are different factions vying for power in a single anticipated outcome which the deception is intended to achieve. There are two in particular which we can easily identify along well known lines of left-right, conservative-liberal, etc. They are the customary choices which in many instances prompt us to "choose the lesser evil", understanding that evil has a different meaning among the various sides. Alice Bailey referred to this as a duality, the 'Light' and 'Dark' forces of the 'Great White Brotherhood' and the 'Lodge of Materialistic Forces' respectively. She said: "The result of this dualism is the external chaos, the differentiation of the two group ideals into the many human experiments, and the resultant ranging of the entire human family under many banners, which testify to the various viewpoints in the many fields of thought - political, religious, economic, social, educational and philosophical." — (The Destiny of Nations, Spiritual Life in the New Age).

Of course Bailey believed that the Great White Lodge is controlled by the Christ, but she does not refer to the Biblical Jesus. The Great White Lodge is an office of the Christ which New Ager's claim has been held by many Christs. This trick use of the word Christ is a liars technique of saying one thing but meaning another known as DUPLICITY; contradictory doubleness of thought, speech, or action. I cover this more fully on my home page (scroll down to find it).

Find more about deception and liars at www.congregator.net.
You should find the Tools of the Trade especially helpful, although its in need of a major rewrite.

Anonymous said...

Maryanne/YG--

Following up on the communication about pyramids (Bosnia-Hrezegovina)--here's something like the leylines you mentioned in an earlier post, here.

The seed germination was an interesting sidelight. Wonder how it will tie in with the stranglehold on the biennial sprouting capability of the seeds most of us buy at the stores?

http://tiny.cc/BGxYM

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous (1:59 PM):
Re: "Can't we find out who these Catholics are and throw them in a FEMA camp or at least cut off their internet access or something?"


WELL, HERE IS CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT CATHOLIC BASHING HAS REACHED A NEW LOW ON THIS BLOG!!!

Anonymous said...

Bjorn,

2006 article reinforcing your comment and Constance's about how Kosovo and Israel are connected:

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/kosovo_junger.htm

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous (1:52 PM):
Re: "Joyce, you are a very courageous woman."


HEY, HOW MUCH "COURAGE" DOES IT TAKE TO BE A NON-STOP OBNOXIOUS POSTER, WHO COMPLETELY DOMINATES THIS BLOG, AND WHO HAS AN EGO THE SIZE OF A BUICK???

Anonymous said...

anon 6:31 joyce is under constant assault here yet responds in kindness and the truth of Christ, a servant and I thank her for her courageous stand. blessings Joyce , connie

Young Grasshopper said...

To Bill,

Thank-you for your comment and illustration, however, I still disagree with you. You are right in what you said about our founding fathers- they were Deists-and they founded America on Deist principles. So the law of Moses would be a natural element of a government built on Deist principals, especially since Abraham was the father of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. You are also right in saying that Nikki does not mention
Yeshua, the Messiah in her posts. Actually, she openly admitted a lack of faith in one of her links.

I do not think that an unbeliever is capable of understanding the full extent of what is going on in the world without being grounded in a biblical foundation. So if an unbeliever comes to her site, I think the danger is that the over- arching tone on her blog is not about biblical prophecy, but rather a NWO with roots in anti-Semitism.

I will admit that Nikki's website has much good information on it. We may even be seeing the Hegelian Dialectic in play at this moment in the Gaza Strip, perhaps in order to escalate the peace process. Where I have a problem with her site is that she infers that Jews are the source of the problem. She does that over and over again through her references to Zionism, the Talmud, the Kabbalah, etc.

Obviously some us here on this blog disagree about Kabbalism. Some of us believe that Kabbalism can be dangerous, and a form of mysticism that will become a prominent feature of the One World religion, while others here have a greatly different opinion of the Talmud, oral tradition and the Kabbalah. No matter which side you agree with, the religion of Judaism is not the issue for those of us researching the NWO and global government. The problem for me is that Nikki is focusing her attention on Jews as a dominant source of communitarianism, and hence creating anti-Semitism as a result.

My opinion is that there are unfortunately many Jews, Christians, Moslems and even Buddhists and everything else left over that constitutes humanity who have turned to occult paganism (look at the Buddhist monks whose bodies were found with Hitler's army) and the New Age religion as their source of religious belief and link to eternity, and as such have joined the dark side, so to speak.

Take a look at the French Revolution. Google the Cult of Reason if you are not familiar with the French Revolution in order to see how a pagan conspiracy was behind that revolution. I believe it was the Illuminati, which has openly claimed to have instigated both the French and American Revolutions, that was behind this Cult as well as being behind the reign of terror. See also how this Cult of Reason desecrated the Parisian Notre Dame Cathedral as well as the Strasbourg Notre Dame ( which I have written about on my blog) in an attempt to de-Christianize the French society. They brought in a half-naked woman and put a torch in her hand and crowned her the Goddess of Reason. A French sculptor created our own Statue of Liberty from that very model! Should we blame the Jews for that? Even if there were Jews who were part of the conspiracy they were not real Jews in any sense of the word! So what were these pagan Illuminati instigators trying to do? They were trying to kill God, and I have been trying to tell people here that the people behind the NWO are into extreme paganism. By pointing too many fingers at Jews, Nikki is joining forces with the real enemy. That’s the problem that I have with that site!

Yes, there are bad people in the world and some of them are Jews. But we abet the enemy if we don’t identify the real root of the conspiracy.


Here is the link to the Cult of Reason that I just talked about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason

also click on my name to go to my blog and read more on the subject, which I need to update soon!

Young Grasshopper said...

To Bobby Garner,

Hi Bobby,
Yes I am with you in what you are saying. Thank -you for explaining it much better than I was able to do!

I will definitely go to your blog and check out what you have to say. Please go to mine as well and see what you think about my theories.

I explained some of my thoughts to Bill in the comment above, but overall, I think there is a battle between the old World order that constitutes powerful family dynasties and monarchies and probably an aspect of the traditional Church as well, that are trying to maintain power over the people. I believe they constitute a part of the conspiracy. However, I think there is a distinct group that overlaps this group for convenience sake who are much more devious in nature. Yes, I think we are on the same page. I only wish that the people here would recognize that infighting here only abets the real enemy which hates Jews, Christians, and Moslems alike!

I'll check out your site some time tonight. Thanks for helping me know I am not the only one thinking these things.

Young Grasshopper said...

Hi JOJO,

Anxious to read about seed germination as well. Thanks so much for the link. I did check out your other link and I thought it was very interesting that these pyramids exist and we never hear anything about them. It's all very fascinating in how these symbols of the occult may be interconnected!

Anonymous said...

Connie, Yes the Love of Christ is in all Joyce's comments and behaviors, thanks be to God. She is a walking testament to Christ the way she treats people and especially her humility. She builds up the body of Christ day after day after day. She is such a devoted servant of the Lord. Doubtless she brings many to the truth of the gospel she is like a sheep amongst ravenous wolves. You must have had a great Bible eduction.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous 6:21

You said:
To Anonymous (1:59 PM):
Re: "Can't we find out who these Catholics are and throw them in a FEMA camp or at least cut off their internet access or something?"


WELL, HERE IS CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT CATHOLIC BASHING HAS REACHED A NEW LOW ON THIS BLOG!!!
*********************************

My dear anonymous 6:21:
It is abundantly clear to the level-headed here that you are writing your own obituaries.

Grow up, please.

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

Though this blog is specifically not for this, good work. How can the truth be found about new age yet Len's comments be ignored.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=9zvYTpf0qC0

The Islamic Connection by Walter J Veith

Constance Cumbey said...

TO JUST CURIOUS 10.27 a.m.

I gave up on the Wikipedia bunch long ago -- they are going to say what they are going to say and I have little control over the Squeakboxes of the world as well as the "Evangelical" disinformation group that evidently were hired guns for Paul Temple, Unification Church, and those receiving moneys from same. Frankly, if those folk want to ensure that I receive bigger and better real estate in God's future Kingdom, more power to them.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

i despise Catholic bashing, but I will confess that Mark Shea is generally a point of deep aversion to me -- he has been most untruthful and unkind to me on line. He has made absolutely no attempt to learn the truth. He could have reached me by phone. I like him almost as much as Fr. Pacwa, only Pacwa probably did more serious research than Mark Shea for whom I have little respect at this time.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

Susanna, by all means PLEASE KEEP POSTING here. I consider you a voice of sanity.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

To Niki Raapana aka Tent Lady:

I have no intention of cancelling our next show and I hope you don't either.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

To Niki Raapana aka Tent Lady:

I have no intention of cancelling our next show and I hope you don't either.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

Niki Raapana and I had a very long talk. I consider her research on Communitarianism too important to discard. Barbara Marx Hubbard is from a Jewish family. When people get into this stuff, communitarianism included, they often become what James Webb called "self-hating Jews." Jews, Christians, and Moslems are clear targets of this movement that targets just about everything but blonde, blue-eyed pagans.

Constance

Anonymous said...

Constance,

Your comment about "self hating Jews" makes no sense in this context unless Raapana is Jewish. Is she? How did I miss this?

The issue is antisemitic links at Raapana's website. Why does she link and comment favorably about these websites? Maryanne has covered some of this and so has Dorothy.

Dont let the antisemitic links and comments bother you. Just pretend they don't exist.

Anonymous said...

Susanna said:
"Since you yourself have stated that you are not a Christian, I would far rather affirm a Jew in his AUTHENTIC Judaism then affirm him in accepting a false "Messiah."

...and would she affirm a Muslim in Islam,( I have actually heard a Catholic priest doing this) a Buddhist in Buddhism, etc, etc,.? It's funny that someone can use the title Christian, and yet mean something totally different than someone else who uses that same terminology.

This is a perfect example of the New World Religion that is being formed before your eyes. Catholics can be better Catholics, Jews better Jews, Muslims better Muslims, Hindus better Hindus...and if we can throw a little spirituality into the mix we can join together as one happy family. Bravo!

Some of the harder words of Yeshua:

Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

The sword He will bring is the Word of God:

Rev. 19:13-16 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has aa name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

I don't think we're doing anyone a favor at this late hour to make them better Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.

A wise person would recognize the hour.
Joyce

Anonymous said...

My computer and telephone were both down all day, or I would have replied sooner.

I think when Constance referred to self-hating Jews she must have been referring to Joyce. Although I think it is a bunch of baloney, Joyce does like to talk about "her people" while at the same time she bashes them with bricks every chance she gets.

Now if Joyce was so knowledgeable about Judaism, she would have known the failures of Jesus Len referred to were the failures to live up to the expectations of the Jewish people in general, though he lived up to the expectations of a small subset of the Jewish community.

To my mind this isn't really important because Christianity has developed a religion over the past 2,000 years that is based on a set of moral values, though not all claiming to be Christians live up to them.

I became interested in fighting the New Age movement because of the antisemitism involved. This was the most important thing that concerned me. I learned that hatred of Catholicism was also basic to New Agers. These two groups were the biggest targets of the Nazi movement, forerunner of today's New Age movement. Somehow that lesson has been lost at this blog.

Dorothy

Anonymous said...

http://www.usc.edu/schools
/college/crcc/engagement/about/

University of Southern California CRCC Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement

It might have already been covered but I thought it interesting.

Anonymous said...

CONSTANCE
Those who take the life of a pre-born infant always find justification for their act. Thieves justify stealing because they say they are justified in sharing the wealth. Murderers believe their victims have it coming. Those who are cruel to animals say the animals don't count. Even New Age leaders feel justified because they believe they are superior to the masses. Shoplifters say stores overcharge and can afford a loss. Those who lie about their neighbor also feel they have justification for their actions.

As a lawyer you learned that lesson in law school. There must be laws or there would be no end to evil on this earth. Every client is entitled to lawyer if he is charged, but the lawyer isn't the judge of the morality of the client. That's important.

Dorothy

Anonymous said...

Dorothy,

"Now if Joyce was so knowledgeable about Judaism, she would have known the failures of Jesus Len referred to were the failures to live up to the expectations of the Jewish people in general, though he lived up to the expectations of a small subset of the Jewish community."

I'm quite aware of the expectations of some of the Jewish leadership in Second Temple Judaism. That's not what Len said and he doesn't strike me as someone who requires an interpreter.

By the way, Christianity which I would prefer to call true Biblical Faith is not based on a bunch of values.. contrary to your interpretation. It is based on the person of Yeshua HaMashiach. Yeshua HaMashiach, just happens to be the Living Torah.

If some of the Jews were disappointed with Yeshua because he did not not conquer the Roman occupiers with the sword, it is simply because they didn't not correctly understand His mission the first time. He actually came to defeat something much bigger than the Romans and that would be sin and death. Sin and death were swallowed up when Yeshua became the the perfect Lamb of God, who not only died but rose from the grave.

Some of us, unlike the Catholics on the blog don't believe He should be represented by a statue with His head hanging down or as a little baby in the arms of His all powerful mother, since first of all we are not supposed to make graven images which is against Torah, but secondly He is risen from the dead and is the first fruits of the Resurrection. Because He lives, we have life and can enter into the place of HaMaqom (face to face relationship with God).

Biblical faith in Yeshua, regardless of what you call yourself is not a bunch of values. It's a relationship. It's not a bunch of traditions. It's life itself.

Religion, be it Catholic, Judaism or any other religion is all of man's efforts to man himself righteous in the eyes of God. . There is One who is righteous, and One who is holy and has no sin and that is Yeshua. The failure wasn't in Yeshua. It was in the leadership of the Jewish community in His day to see when the Messiah was among them, so lets talk about that failure.

The failure of historical Christianity, and I am speaking of an institutionalized Church that thought that they could also "codify" religion. The Catholic Church deliberately changed everything about the faith so as to distance themselves from the Jews. Read a little history about Constantine and you might understand a little better. I'm not bashing Catholics, but this is the history of the Church. Constantine changed the Biblical calendar and did all that he could to disassociate from it's Jewish roots.. This is historical fact.

You're an educated woman.. go read. I won't even talk about the Inquisition and numerous other things in its history that clearly show the heart of the Catholic Church.

I don't dislike Catholics. They are human beings who are just following what they've been raised in for the most part.. I don't like the Catholic Church at all and I make no apologies for it. It is an institution that has persecuted the Jewish people, distorted the truth of the Scriptures and lifts up a man as if he were second in line to God. There is no such office in the Bible as a Pope.

I am not discussing Catholicism however. Susanna should very well understand my comments, if she is truly a follower of Yeshua, whether she calls Him Jesus and she calls herself Christian is not the issue. His sheep know His voice..

Let me just be clear Dorothy, I don't want to see you be a better Jew, although you might be more pleasant if you were. You already are a Jew.. No one can take that away from you, and no one can take that away from me..

If you could clean yourself up from sin by being a better Jew, then you wouldn't be on this blog writing. You'd be in the synagogue day and night praying.. The point is none of us, not me, not you, not Susanna can do a thing to earn our righteousness. I just recognize that fact and recognize that there is only One who can impute this righteousness to us through His finished word on a tree. Yeshua became curse for us, that we might have life. The Torah says "cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree".

Death could not hold Him because He was not some ordinary human being. When He came forth from the grave, He accomplished His victory over sin and death. He is the Tree of Life, not Kabbalah. If we grab hold of Him, we will have Life. If not we will perish.

Religion is dead works. Yeshua is life. Through His Spirit Torah is put on our hearts, instead of on stones.

I know very well what the Catholic Church teaches and unforutnately, though they pay lip service to the fact they believe in Jesus Christ, they teach millions of other doctrines that obscure who He is and what He did. They teach religion. Religion of any kind will not save one hair on anyone's head but a relationship with Yeshua will bring Life.

He is our Shabbat rest. He was the manna come down from the sky that nourished our people in the Wilderness, the bread of Life. He was always there, even at the foundation of the world. He is not a little helpless baby. He is the all powerful creator of the universe who came in the form of a man to identify with us in our weakness. The only difference is He did not sin, we do. When He went to the cross to pay for our penalties, He said, "it is finished". The serpent was defeated, but you have to pick up the serpent by the tail and understand who gave you power over him:

Ex. 4:3 Then He said, “Throw it on the ground.” So he threw it on the ground, and ait became a serpent; and Moses fled from it.

The Son of Man had to be lifted up like the serpent in the Wilderness because that's what would put an end to death. I'm sure you know the story of Israel's sin when Moses did this:

John 3:14 “As aMoses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man cbe lifted up;

The serpent is still here, deceiving the whole world which was under a curse, but there is One and only One who overcame the curse:

Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Religion will not save you, following the Talmud will not save you, doing Kabbalah will not save you, following Catholicism will not save you, or any other religion on the face of the planet. The days are late and judgement is coming on this world. The question before you will be very simple. What have you done with Yeshua?

Rev. 12:10-11 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Messiah have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. “And they aovercame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of cthe word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

You see Dorothy, the same way the blood of the Lamb on the doorposts protected our people and brought them out of Egypt 3500 years ago roughly, the story we repeat to our children every Passover is the same story. Without the blood of the Lamb the Angel of Death will come because the Prince of this World will be judged. Pharaoh was only the ruler of Egypt, but God is coming to judge the Prince of the World and you better know what the "seal of God" is. It's the testimony of Yeshua and the keeping of His Commandments.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not one or the other, it's both:

Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The woman in this passage represents Israel.

When John tried to worship the messenger an angel, look what the angel says:

Rev. 19:10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”


Maybe my words sound like rubbish to you now, but I pray that one day the Spirit of the Living God will lead you in all truth and you will know your Messiah, who came to liberate you from sin and death. Maybe you don't think you need that, but we all sin and we're all going to die ( unless Messiah comes back within our lifetimes which is possible).

Some of us here on the blog understand our eternal security in Yeshua. We understand that because He is risen, so too will we be part of the resurrection.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

If you don't understand the legal requirements that Yeshua filled to accomplish all that Torah set before us and then to go and put His blood on the mercy seat in heaven as our High Priest, I suggest that you read Torah carefully and explain to yourself, not me...how you intend to justify yourself. You can't and I can't. No one can, Jew, Gentile or otherwise. That is why the Son of Man came to bring Life.

I don't believe Yeshua cancelled the Torah after He lived it, but He did do away with the death penalty that Torah imposes..

If Susanna doesn't know who I serve, after all I've written on this blog than I feel sorry for her. I think it's pretty evident who I answer to, and it's not the Pope.

Chose life.. that's all I can say.
Joyce

Anonymous said...

Dear Dorothy,
First of all, I hope that you took some of your wise advice and spent some time being refreshed during this Hanukkah.

Secondly, I apologize for not getting to this thread before Joyce had a chance to address your 1:31a comment at length.

If you are starting to get to know me, even a little, you probably know that I wish to address the oversimplification of your description of Christianity. You've worked hard to express your objection to individuals who oversimplify Judaism so why would I not object to the same with regards to Christianity? Christianity is no more a religion of a beneficial set of moral values than Judaism is a beneficial set of ten commandments of moral values.
It comes across as condescending and slightly slanderous coming from you because I know how intelligent you are, thus my objection.
I'm a knowledgeable, studious, logical person who believes, by faith, that Christ was who He said He was: the Son of God. Thus, I believe in the Word of God from cover to cover. That does, indeed, include the many moral values therein that you've stated. However, my faith is so much more than just values.
I promise you that I will never claim to know everything about Christianity, because I'm confident that a lifetime will never be enough time to figure it all out. I only ask that you try not to oversimlify my faith as I will always work hard not to oversimplify Judaism.

With greatest respect to you,
-SV

Anonymous said...

REPLY TO SV
http://www.questioningchristian.org/2004/07/christianity_th.html

"Christianity = The Great Commandment

The Scripture readings appointed for today include the story of Jesus announcing the core of his teaching, as recounted in Luke 10:25-37:

Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he said, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the law? What do you read there?" He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live."

(Emphasis added.) This story obviously was significant to the early Christians, because it shows up in all three of the Synoptic Gospels, at Matt. 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-34, as well as in Luke.

Matthew's version of the story seems to suggest that everything else is just details: It ends with Jesus telling his questioners, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.""

It was to this I was referring. No offense was intended.

In Judaism there are 613 commandments as found in the Torah, and yes they are the core of Judaism.

Yes, it's my opinion. I don't think we were given the Bible in order to teach us to be historians, archeologists, scientists or delvers into mysticism.

How Christians work out the Great Commandment is up to Christian religious leaders and academics. The same holds true for Jews and Jewish religious leaders and academics. Jews shouldn't be telling Christians what to do and vice versa as both groups answer to God and not to each other.

Did Joyce write something? I guess I missed it.

Dorothy

Dorothy

Anonymous said...

Hey Dorothy,
You're reading the gospels.. Glad to see it! Don't stop there. Read the the Epistles too. You'll see it is not contradicting Torah..

Yes, we are to love God with all our heart, all our soul and all our mind and love our neighbor as our self. Yeshua said He didn't come to abolish the Torah but to fulfill it ( or plethero in the Greek...fill it up o the full measure until it is overflowing).. Matt 5:17-19.

We are also called to speak truth...in love. The qualifier is "in love".

God so loved the world He sent His one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in HIm shall not perish but have eternal life, for God did not send His Son to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through Him. John 3:16-17

Yeshua ticked off the Jewish leaders so much they wanted to have Him crucified. That's why they handed Him over to the Romans to put on the tree Do you think He really deserved it? I don't. The Torah says that we are the ones worthy of death. He did no wrong. That's why He was the unblemished Lamb of Passover. Remember the korban had to be without blemish.

None of the false Messiahs of Judaism were ever crucified? That's because the Son of Man came to be a ransom for many.. He came to His own, but His own knew Him not, but to all that received Him, believed in HIs name He gave the right to be called sons of God, sons not born of flesh nor the will of man, but of God ( John 1)..

He laid down His life...to give you life...you accept it, you reject it, it's your free choice. God never imposes anything on anyone.

Joyce

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

If you think you are going to get away with filibustering my challenge off the page, you are very much mistaken.

So...Until you can quote me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish" Rule of Faith there is nothing you can say that will convince me that your Rule of Faith is the correct one because your argument regarding your Rule of Faith stands or falls on whether or not you can find it CLEARLY STATED in the Bible.

In the meantime, I am going to repost the link to Mark Shea's article WHAT IS SACRED TRADITION?

http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/a783x4

By the way, before Mark Shea entered the Catholic Church, he was a Protestant. So if anyone understands where Protestants are coming from, Mark does.

Anonymous said...

Constance,

Thank you for your kind words.

I may have some issues with Mark m Shea myself, but with regard to his article I posted about Sacred Tradition, he is spot on about Catholic teaching.

As you can see, I am not personally attacking Joyce or anyone else. Neither am I asking you to take sides. If I am unwilling to do my best to defend my own beliefs, then I am indeed a sorry witness for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and unworthy of the name "Christian."

I have simply asked Joyce to show me the Biblical mandate for her position. Until she does so satisfactorily, I intend to keep asking.

You have also seen for yourself that I am not in the habit of "sending people to hell" who do not agree with my Catholic beliefs.

Neither am I one of those bigots who is in the habit of trashing the beliefs of others under the guise of "trying to save them."

If I regard the New Age Movement as a different kettle of fish, it is on account of the fact that it is, for the most part a rehash of ancient gnostic errors. Gnosticism is NOT a religion. It is a system of thought.....a philosophy.....that has managed to worm its way into everything - beginning with the ancient pagan mystery cults.

THAT'S my story and I'm sticking to it! :-)

Constance Cumbey said...

To Anonymous 1:59 p.m.

Shades of the New Age published and backed "Bro Eric," the awful person who suggested murdering all Catholic priests.

I want nothing more of this type of suggestion! I read about it yesterday but only now wading through the most recent comments on found it -- this smacks only of the Armageddon Script plans as enunciated by Peter LeMesurier (1981 and beyond) to finish us off by dividing us.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

Look all:

I have found MANY internet sites where conversations were going where I could have made valuable input and was willing to do so. There were so many hoops to jump through -- registration, passwords, approval by the moderator, etc., ad nauseum that I gave up and I'm sure many other self-respecting observers did as well. For that and many other legitimate reasons, I am not going to succumb to pressures to make this blog a secret society.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

To 2:44 p.m. Thank you for a voice of wisdom and sanity!

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

To Anonymous 11:50

Niki Raapana's website is HUGE and her work has obviously encompassed many years. I have not yet examined every nook and cranny. I have verified enough of her work and know enough from my own research to know she is on to something that needs our further understanding and examination. She is the best qualified person I have found so far to articulate it.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

When I refer to "self-hating Jews," I am referring to those deeply in the occult who concurred in the sentiments of Alice Bailey that there needed to be a final solution to the "Jewish problem" that paid them back for their bad "national karma." This would include folk such as Arthur Koestler (he and his wife died by a double suicide), Barbara Marx Hubbard, Sol Lewis (he headed the Michigan Metaphysical Society and confessed to me that what Alice Bailey said about the Jews was 'true'), etc., etc.

Niki is exposing the Communitarian movement which appears to be a significant front of Mark Satin's "Radical Middle" aka "New Age Movement".

Constance

Anonymous said...

Paul,

While meaning no disrespect, Paul, I believe that I AM following the commandments of God. Moreover, I can more legitimately hit you with the same passage from Scripture.

"Why do you follow the traditions
of men, and not the commandments
of God ?" _Jesus Christ

On what authority do you define the difference between the "traditions of men" and the "commandments of God" in the first place?

The Bible?

And where in the Bible does it EXPLICITLY AND CLEARLY STATE that the "Bible only" is intended by God to be the Christian Rule of Faith?

Where in the Bible does it EXPLICITLY AND CLEARLY STATE that one may privately interpret Holy Writ?

When I hear this Protestant "mantra" known as "traditions of men," it occurs to me that the ones who chant it are blind to the fact that "Sola Scriptura" which was invented by Martin Luther is a "tradition of men." Where in the Bible did it say that Martin Luther had the authority to ditch the Septuagint and substitute the Hebrew Bible in its place? The Septuagint was the translation of the Old Testament in use in the time of Christ. FYI In the dead sea scrolls, portions of the Old Testament in accord with the Septuagint have been discovered - written in HEBREW!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

So you see, Paul, I know my Bible. So if you want to convince me that your version of Christianity is the "real deal," and mine isn't you are going to have to begin by answering those questions to MY (not your) satisfaction.

In the meantime, you might want to check out Mark Shea's article if you want to know what Catholics REALLY believe - as opposed to what you THINK (or WANT to think) they believe.

http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html

Anonymous said...

P.S. Paul

That was my whole point in asking Len what he knew about the origins of Kabbalah. I wanted to learn what Orthodox Jews REALLY believed
about it - as opposed to what I might THINK they believe.

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

You wrote:

If Susanna doesn't know who I serve, after all I've written on this blog than I feel sorry for her. I think it's pretty evident who I answer to, and it's not the Pope.

Given the way in which all your filibustering and "Hebrew-larded" private interpretations of Scripture to suit your own tastes have "obscured Christ," it is indeed hard to know exactly what you believe or who you "answer to."
Sounds to me like you are a "law unto yourself." A "McPope!"

You ragged on me for "affirming" Len in his Jewish beliefs.

Hey. I am not the one who is disguising my Christian beliefs as "Judaism" in order to trick Jews into hooking up with an Assembly of God satellite organization.

Where I come from, this is called lying!

Ergo, YOU are the one people need to feel sorry for.

Anonymous said...

Dear Constance,

You wrote:

i despise Catholic bashing, but I will confess that Mark Shea is generally a point of deep aversion to me -- he has been most untruthful and unkind to me on line. He has made absolutely no attempt to learn the truth.

This is news to me, and if true, I think it is a disgrace. Could you please enlighten me with regard to what you have described as Mark's untruthful and unkind behavior to you?

I don't go for Protestant-bashing any more than you go for Catholic-bashing.

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

I read that fellow Mark's link and he is so off base, I don't even know where to start. If you have been reading any of posts, you would realize that I disagree with you to begin with on the very premise of the "Church". I believe that God has one called out assembly. He always did.

Since you are insisting on discussing this, I will have to start at the beginning. As I've explained many times the Rock on which Yeshua would build His assembly is Himself. Scripture often uses plays on words, so the play on the name Petras does not mean that Yeshua is building His assembly. If you go back to the Torah, the Lord is called the Rock many times, but specifically in the story of the Wilderness when Moses was commanded to speak to the Rock. Now why did God tell Moses to speak to a Rock and why was Moses punishment so severe, that he did not get to into the promised land because he didn't speak to the Rock.

The people were going to drink from the Rock, which would bring forth Living Water. Who is it that gives us Living Water? The Lord does..

Let's look at how else the Rock is spoken of in Torah:

Deut. 32:4 “The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.

Clearly the Rock spoken of is the Lord. This expression is used throughout all of Tanakh to describe the Lord.

Again, here is the Rock who Israel ( Jeshurun) has scorned. God knew back then what would happen:

Deut. 32:15 ¶ “aBut 1Jeshurun grew fat and kicked —
You are grown fat, thick, and sleek —
Then he forsook God who made him,
And scorned dthe Rock of his salvation.

The translation of salvation in this passage is Yeshuah in Hebrew. They scorned the rock of their Yeshuah.. interesting..

Again and again, we see it used this way, but I will just post a few examples:

2Sam. 22:47 “The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,

Psa. 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and athe meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight,
O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

Here in black and white, Paul interprets for us WHO the rock is:

1Cor. 10:4 and all adrank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Okay, let's go back to the expression "church" which in Greek is ekklesia. In the Greek Septuagint written 200 years prior to Yeshua, by Jews the word ekklesia is used to translate the Hebrew word qahal, meaning "called out assembly". Now since Yeshua and His disciples were going to the Temple and to synagogues in those days and there was no such thing as "a church" what do you suppose Yeshua was talking about? I believe He was talking about the same called out assembly from the Wilderness that was drinking water from the spiritual rock, namely Himself.

You see Susanna, among Israel, there were always those who believed in God's promises and it was credited to them as righteousness, and those who did not like the entire generation who perished in the Wilderness. The "ekklesia" is those who are called out. So if Yeshua was building an assembly that went back to Sinai, which is my supposition based on normal rules of grammatical interpretation of Biblical text. There is no Catholic Church to make traditions..and certainly no Pope to rule on them.

Let's look at the expression that was used "binding and loosing" which is what Yeshua gave His disciples authority to do. Since the Sanhedrin had authority to render decisions about Torah and resolve disputes between parties, Yeshua was giving this authority to His disciples to loosen or strengthen restrictions. The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 is the perfect example of this.

Gentiles were coming into the faith and the prevailing Jewish understanding of what to do with Gentile proselytes was that to join the called out assembly, they should be circumcised. Don't forget, prior to Yeshua there were god-fearers, people from the nations who would come to Jerusalem and worship the God of Israel. Of those proselytes some became actual converts to Judaism. The difference in the way that the converts and the god-fearers were treated was that god-fearers stayed in the court of the Gentiles. This was not a Torah command that there should be a dividing wall. It was something constructed in Second Temple Judaism.

Jews believed and still do today, that circumcision was a requirement for inclusion in the the community. As a result, what was happening was they were not accepting the fact that the salvation of these Gentiles was based uniquely on faith and the Holy Spirit bringing the conviction of their need for Yeshua. Remember, gentiles were viewed as really impure people.. Now we know that Abraham was justified by faith, not by works, so prior to circumcision Abraham was justified. This is the whole basis of this discussion. It doesn't get much clearer than this:

Rom. 4:1-13What then shall we say that Abraham, 1our forefather aaccording to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified 1by works, he has something to boast about, but anot 2before God. For what does the Scripture say? “aABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” Now to the one who aworks, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but abelieves in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “aBLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
“aBLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT bTAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” Is this blessing then on 1athe circumcised, or on 2the uncircumcised also? For bwe say, “cFAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Ro How then was it credited? While he was 1circumcised, or 2uncircumcised? Not while 1circumcised, but while 2uncircumcised; and he areceived the sign of circumcision, ba seal of the righteousness of the faith which 1he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be cthe father of dall who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which 1he had while uncircumcised. For the promise to Abraham or to his 1descendants bthat he would be heir of the world was not 2through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

We cannot "work" to be justified. . We have to believe. Catholicism talks about penance and many things that are works based justification. Now if we are justified, then naturally we want to walk in obedience and with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit we can..


The Jerusalem Council set some requirements for initial fellowship. The "binding and loosing" was the decision made by James to determine how to deal with this new situation of a sudden influx of Gentiles who did not know the dietary laws, the sexual purity laws etc.. Another words, how could they even sit down at the table together if the new believers were sitting there munching on a bloody steak... We see James next comment after they set initial guidlines.. is :

Acts 15:21 “For aMoses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

These new believers were not expected to go to church. They were going to go to the synaogue and hear Moses...There weren't any other places where they would have heard the Scriptures taught..so the expectation was that they would be meeting with the Jews. The apostles expected them to come into the called-out assembly. Their learning would come directly from the Word of God, Moses and the Prophets and the Writings..

Now as for traditions, I do agree there were traditions, but they were Jewish traditions that had developed in Second Temple Judaism, but there were also laws that dated back to Moses How do we know this:

Acts 28:17 After three days Paul called together those who were athe leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

The customs that Paul was referring to were the customs that came from the Ancient Israelites concerning following Torah. Paul says he didn't do anything against these, so he certainly wasn't eating pork, or celebrating Christmas..

He was accused of this because of the great confusion about him reaching out to Gentiles, which actually is what Jews are supposed to do according to Tanakh..

Paul is being accused of breaking the customs that come from Moses:

Acts 21:21 and they have been told about you, that you are ateaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them bnot to circumcise their children nor to 1walk according to cthe customs.

Immediately following this Paul performs the rites of purification from the Torah which includes an animal sacrifice ( the Temple was still standing at the time). Why did he do this? To prove that he was not forsaking Moses. Look at what was going on:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

The Bible says thousands were obeying the Torah given to Moses and had believed in Yeshua. .

Now let's differentiate between man made traditions that were being done in the Second Temple period and God's Word:

Tradition can cover up the Word of God:
Matt. 15:2-3 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they ado not wash their hands when they eat bread.” And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

I suppose we could look at what Isaiah says on this:

Is. 29:13 ¶ Then the Lord said,
“Because athis people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,

I can very much identify with this. When growing up Catholic, there was the mandatory, sit, stand, kneel, make the sign of the cross. I remember feeling like a robot. It didn't feel reverent at all. I felt mechanical. We would respond to the priest without even thinking about what we were saying. Okay that's me...Maybe your heart is in it.

Okay, now the context of this verse is evidently the religious leaders are giving korban ( sacrifices) and neglecting their parents:

Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

Now, the accusation was putting tradition over the Commandments of God. The fourth Commandment is the keeping of the Sabbath holy, and the Catholic Church annulled that at the Nicean Council. That would be a perfect example of putting a tradition of man over the commandments of God.

http://tinyurl.com/ax5xyg

There isn't a single verse in the Bible canceling Sabbath and yet the Catholic Church did away with it and installed "the Lord's Day" which is actually another way of saying the Day of the Lord. There is no command to observe the Lord's Day and the Sabbath is the 4th Commandment, which actually all about Yeshua, but that's another story.

I won't even mention the traditons of Easter, when Yeshua was crucified on the Jewish Passover. Now, I have to say that this is the part that the Protestant Churches did not protest about when they went back to the Scriptures. There was always a remnant who observed Sabbath through the centuries, but I'm not going to try to make a case for that here... It's not the subject.

Setting aside Shabbat for Sunday is a man made tradition. It's not God's commandment and the Catholic Church knows this, but that is only one example. I remember the old days, not eating meat on Fridays, Lent, Holy Days of Obligation, etc, etc. but the mo'ed, God's appointed times the Church has annulled. I will stick with the Sabbath because that is the most obvious, given that it is the fourth commandment.

Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through bphilosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the celementary principles of the world, 1rather than according to Christ.

There are so many things that Catholicism preaches that are not in the Bible, these would fall into the tradition of men box. The Bible doesn't have "sacraments" "holy days of obligation" "indulgences" .

Don't tell me that the Catholic Church never used indulgences because I am the proud owner of an original one which was given to a family member. Now for those on the blog who don't know what an indulgence was it was something you could buy to from the Catholic Church to have your sins forgiven. Let's see what Scripture has to say about that Tradition:

Acts 8:18-22 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could aobtain the gift of God with money!
“You have ano part or portion in this 1matter, for your heart is not bright before God.
“Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, aif possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

The same principal applies here. The gift of Salvation was paid for freely by the shed blood of Yeshua our Messiah, and the Catholic Church had the audacity to try to make money by selling forgiveness of sins. If you don't believe me I can find the document and type the exact wording, but this is a well-known practice of the Catholic Church.

What about the Jubilee in 2000 when you could be forgiven by walking through certain doors of specified cathedrals including St. Peter's in Rome.. Give me a break! This is replacing the traditions of man with the Word of God. I could probably go on for another several hours.

A family member died and I heard the priest say, "so and so was forgiven because they took the sacraments, but just in case let's pray to get her out of purgatory." Sacraments never saved anyone. The thief next to Yeshua on the cross believed and Yeshua said, "This very day you will be with me in Paridise". If those traditions don't annul the Word of God, I don't know what does.

This is nothing against you Susanna. I believe you are sincere in your heart and you probably love the Lord.. I can't judge whether you do or not.. but I know lots of sincere Catholics that have swallowed this doctrine for decades and decades, never stopping to question it. You seem like a fairly intelligent woman and I think you do actually try to know a bit more than the average Catholic that I've known over the years.

I am not against you or RL or Rose or any of the anonymous Catholics who ever they might be.. I'm against what I see as centuries of deception on the part of the Catholic Church. Now I'm not saying that it is all deliberate deception. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't but it is far from the truth of Scripture. I won't get into baptizing people to make sure they're saved because that would take another five pages of typing.

If I say something against the Catholic Church, I am saying it as someone who knows it from the inside and has been set free from it. As a Jew, I won't tell you how offensive it is when I read things like the changing of Sabbath to not have anything to do with Jews. God gave the Sabbath as an everlasting ordinance. It's a sign that we are His people.

The Catholic Church preached replacement theology for years.. i.e. that they were the true Israel. That's rubbish too. Israel is hardened in part until the fulness of the nations, thus all Israel will be saved.

Last but not least, is the verse in Revelations:

Rev. 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears athe words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone badds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in dthis book;
and if anyone atakes away from the bwords of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from cthe tree of life and from the holy city, dwhich are written in this book.

The Catholic Church has done both. It has added and taken away so many things..

Yeshua said we are not to call anyone Father, but yet the Pope is called "the Holy Father".

Matt. 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

We are not to worship anyone but God. The Catholics worship their saints and Mary:


Rev. 19:10-11 Then aI fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Mary, the people that have gone before us are fellow servants. By the way, that fellow whose article you sent, misinterpreted this verse too. This woman is Israel, not Mary:

Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The other woman mentioned in the book of Revelations is thought to be by many the Roman Catholic Church. . I would encourage you to read Dave Hunt's book, "The Woman who Rides the Beast". There is actually some pretty convicting information in there. I know of one person who left the Catholic Church after reflecting on what Dave had to say.

I won't go into all of the false teachings about celibacy:

A little word on mysticism. What do you suppose Paul meant here:

Col. 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, 3taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

Again, the commandments and teachings of men:

Col. 2:21-23 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” (which all refer ato things destined to perish with use) — in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the 1appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

I can think of some of the kinds of harsh things that Catholics have done to themselves to "identify with Yeshua's suffering" over the years and this kind of self-abasement would be what Paul's talking about.


I think I have sufficiently outlined some of the problems that I have with the Catholic Church, but that doesn't mean I dislike you or have a problem with you. My initial criticism was because I was disappointed to see you affirming mysticism when the obvious need that Len has is for Yeshua.. That is in God's hands, but I would have hoped for a stronger testimony from you, since you do say that you confess Yeshua.

Just so you are clear about who I think Yeshua is, I will agree with Paul in saying He is all of the fulness of Deity in bodily form. He is the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Him will have everlasting life. I believe He is the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us, that was with God in the beginning and is God, according to John 1. I believe that He was crucified as the Passover Lamb, was without sin, and rose on the third day as the First Fruits of the Resurrection. I believe He is the promised Messiah, spoken about by the Prophets, the suffering Servant, Messiah ben Joseph, and the King who is coming back to reign, Messiah ben David. He will reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years as spoken of by the prophets and then there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth and we will dwell with Him forever. I believe that He and His Father are one, and that the Holy Spirit was sent to lead us in all truth.

I believe in the full restoration of all Israel, and the covenant of peace where there will be no more tears, no more sickness, no more pain, the old will have passed away.. in a nutshell the restoration of Gan Eden with the tree of life whose leaves will heal the nations..

I do believe that God will judge the living and the dead and only those whose names are written in the Book of life will dwell with Him. The rest will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, along with Satan and his demons.

We all have traditions, but if our traditions contradict the Word of God, or add and/or take away from it, we are violating Scripture. The Catholic Church has done this for centuries.

There's more I could say, in terms of where I stand on a number of issues but I'll leave it there for now.

Joyce

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

I'll just ignore what you said in your prior message..I hope you will read what I said and think about it instead of thinking I am personally attacking you.

I'm really not...

Joyce

Anonymous said...

Joyce

I just wanted to say that I really see your love for Scripture and Yeshuah; and your response to persecution and untruths is an example that I should take heed to follow.

I tend to respond in haste and that does no one, especially God, any good. On the other hand sometimes I avoid what I know to be Scriptural truths because I know that the person I am talking to does not in any way believe or know the topic and I don't wish to appear to be attacking them personally. Your calm, Biblically sound responses to all the negatives that get thrown at you are inspiring. "iron sharpens iron".
Thank you.

I respect your knowledge and have several areas I'd like to look at that don't necessarily fit this blog.

The first one being the Holy Trinity. I find this very confusing. I believe in Yahweh God the Father, Yeshuah Jesus Christ His only begotten son, and the Holy Spirit but the whole thing about Jesus actually being God Himself I find hard to comprehend. You touched on several scriptures that point to this in the Rock of Salvation passages. I think if I had a good grasp of Biblical Hebrew the Trinity doctrine would be clearer. However, knowing that this is a pivotal doctrine of the Catholic Church, it gives me pause. Can you reccommend a good Hebrew/English Bible? I have checked out a few and always find them lacking, for instance replacing God's Holy Name with Lord everywhere and that cannot be right.

Thank you for giving me a reality check on my walk.

Suzette

Anonymous said...

JOYCE AS A SELF-HATING JEW?

Dorothy:

I am glad you brought this up. I was thinking about this phrase in connection with Joyce and was going to ask Len about it when he got back.

I will find the post that got me thinking about this (from an earlier thread) and re-post it here for you as you may have missed it.

Anonymous said...

Suzette,
I hesitate to open another can of worms, but I don't use the expression Trinity, which came from Catholicism. I prefer to say that God is one ( echad in Hebrew) and can manifest any way He so pleases. What do we do with the pre-incarnate appearances of God wrestling with Jacob, meeting Abraham, etc. . Ruach is breath or wind in Hebrew so the Ruach HaKodesh is Holy Wind or Breath or Spirit..can we call this a "person".

I prefer to see God as echad and say that God is somewhat beyond our comprehension to put it mildly. Can God chose to manifest in flesh? Sure He can. How do we explain someone who always was, who created everything? This is the problem with trying to put human labels on God the creator and sustainer of everything. Can you explain a burning bush that doesn't burn up, a mountain with lightening, a pillar of smoke, a pillar of fire.. Can God leave our little box, or trinity...Indeed, I think He can. This is why it is perfectly understandable to me that God can manifest in flesh. Sure, He can.. He's God. Do I totally understand that.. No, I'd be lying if I said I could explain all the mysteries of the universe and of God. I do know what He revealed to us and I believe it to be true.


Don't know if that helps. I don't use a Hebrew/English Bible normally, but lexicons.. Brown Driver Briggs is a good lexicon. Halot is another.Thayer's for the Greek. It's helps to try to learn about hebraic way of thinking, rather than Greek.. There's tons of resources, but one book I've recommended before on the blog is "Copernicus and the Jews" by Daniel Gruber. I think that's a good place to begin to see how much we think in boxes...and it necessarily affects our interpretation of the Bible.

Blessings,
Joyce

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous (9:39 PM):

No, actually - some of you Protestant so-called "Christians" who are so full of hatred and into Catholic bashing (for sport) are the ones who need to GROW UP!!!

Also, you (and you know WHO you are) may be writing your own "obituaries" for your future eternal life - by your refusal to follow the command of Jesus "to love thy neighbor as thyself."

Anonymous said...

JOYCE AS SELF-HATING JEW?

Dorothy,

Here is the post from earlier this week that got me thinking about the question of Joyce as a self-hating Jew:

Len:

It is apparent to anyone who reads Joyce's rants that she has some serious "issues" as a human being.
Nearly all who post here are Christians. This leads me to conclude that Joyce's primary objective is to stir up animosity toward the Jewish religion amongst Christians.

Let me explain to you how I see this at work.

Joyce's self-proclaimed identity as a "Jew" gives the Christians here who identify with her a safety valve by which they can say, "I know Joyce, she is a Jew, and therefore my beliefs about Judaism, and my words and actions in relation to Jews, cannot be anti-semitic."

She plays off their latent guilt and ignorance about Judaism in order to manipulate their emotions. Very few Christians want to be accused of antisemitism. Having Joyce as their cheerleader allows the Christians here who follow her to "have it both ways."

Joyce avoids difficult questions and dances and weaves here way around others. Her latest stunt, which she has unveiled strategically on Christmas Day, is to try to stir up a lynch mob by accusing you of "blasphemy." It's easy for some of the dimmer bulbs here to get behind this kind of lynch mob. After all, the mob is being led by a "Jew" named Joyce, who, like them, worships Jesus (Yeshua).

Do you see the pattern here?

Her antics only works with Christians whose critical thinking skills are underdeveloped. (Since mine are overdeveloped to a fault, she can't touch me, fortunately. LOL.)

You, by contrast, will address any question that is put before you. I may disagree with some of your answers (this is inevitable given our religious differences) but I admire your straight-shooting style.

At this point numerous readers here will undoubtedly have noticed that at the Cumbey blog we now have a "war of attrition."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

Peace be with you Len.

Anonymous said...

WILL EVERYONE PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER THAT JOYCE IS THE SELF-APPOINTED "AUTHORITY" ON THIS BLOG AND, THEREFORE, WHY EVEN WASTE YOUR BREATH "DEBATING" HER???

THE ONES WHO HAVE ALLOWED IT TO CONTINUE HAVE CREATED A "MONSTER" AND DESERVE EVERYTHING THEY GET!!!

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

Until you can quote me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish" Rule of Faith there is nothing you can say that will convince me that your Rule of Faith is the correct one because your argument regarding your Rule of Faith stands or falls on whether or not you can find it CLEARLY STATED in the Bible.

Ok. We will give Mark Shea a rest for now. Instead, here are 18 more questions for you to try to answer according to your "Sola Scriptura" Rule of Faith.

http://tinyurl.com/7nqw35

Anonymous said...

Hi Susaana,

I have a life, outside of the CC website.. The only reason I've devoted this much time is because i'm a little sick this week... so I think you have all you need to know. You're welcome to read and respond or ignore it..

Joyce

Anonymous said...

Dear Dorothy,
Thank you for your clarification. I understand where you are coming from now.

With best regards,
-SV

Shem1777 said...

Suzette, 12:08 P.M.

Your open heart, and humility should touch all posters here. it did me.

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

Sure you wanted to discuss this. If you didn't you wouldn't have started it. So let's discuss.

Mark Shea may be "off base" according to your "lights," but in terms of Catholic teaching, he is spot on!

You are right. We DO disagree to begin with "on the very premise of Church," but you are never going to be able to prove your "premise" from the "Bible only."

Since I am not claiming that my Rule of Faith IS the Bible only, I am at least being consistent.

Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inseparable. Scripture is the written portion of Sacred Tradition.

I have nothing personal against you either Joyce. In fact, to give credit where credit is due, you have shared a lot of valuable information here.

But if you are going to challenge the Catholic faith, you had better be prepared to do it in a way that doesn't involve contradicting yourself - which you will inevitably do if you try to do it vis a vis "Sola Scriptura."

For example,you said:

Scripture often uses plays on words, so the play on the name Petras does not mean that Yeshua is building His assembly.

How do you know? If you are going by literal interpretation of the Scriptures, then how would you know when a "play on words" had been used?

Where in the Bible does it CLEARLY say so?

If the Bible doesn't CLEARLY say so and you are not using literal interpretation, on what authority do you interpret the Bible the way you do?

Maybe the Bible DOES use a play on words in the use of "Petros/Petra." But you can't conclusively prove it from the Scriptures alone - especially since the Gospel according to Matthew was written in Aramaic and Jesus would have used the word "kephas" for both "Petros" and "Petra."

In the absence of a CLEAR SCRIPTURAL STATEMENT, "your interpretation alone" isn't going to cut it.

Regareding Peter, according to the plain text of Scriptures, Jesus was speaking directly to the Apostle Simon bar Jonah who came to be known as "Peter." And the reason WHY the Apostle Peter is the Rock (kephas)to whom Christ delegated His authority is because it was to Peter that the Father revealed that Jesus was "the Christ the Son of the living God." In other words, Peter was repeating the revelation that he had just received from the Father declaring Jesus to be the divine Messiah.

Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, [b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of death [c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be [d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be [e] loosed in heaven." 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Matthew 16:13-20


By the way, Joyce, you claim not to belive in the Holy Trinity. Do you believe that Jesus is God?

If so, how do you explain this belief if you do not believe in the Trinity?

And how do you explain Genesis 1:26where it says "Let US make man in OUR image...."? And on what authority do you explain it?

And what about Jesus command to go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost?

Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost(Matthew 28:19)

Sounds pretty clear to me.

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

You wrote:

I won't even mention the traditons of Easter, when Yeshua was crucified on the Jewish Passover. Now, I have to say that this is the part that the Protestant Churches did not protest about when they went back to the Scriptures. There was always a remnant who observed Sabbath through the centuries, but I'm not going to try to make a case for that here... It's not the subject.

But it most certainly IS the subject, Joyce.

The reason why
most Catholic and Protestant Christians observe Sunday sabbath is because they believe it is the day on which Our Lord rose from the dead.

Moreover, we believe that there IS Scriptural precedence for Sunday Sabbath worship. LOL Protestants can simply bypass the "tradition" part if they wish.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sunday_worship.html

or

http://tinyurl.com/6cove

Anonymous said...

P.S.

Sorry to hear that you have been feeling a little under the weather, Joyce. I will pray that you are feeling better soon.

Anonymous said...

To Maryanne(8:02 pm)

A very illuminating (and erudite) analysis -- thanks for your work.

Anonymous said...

Dear Susanna:

I admire you so much. You really know your Catholic faith snd sre a true scholar.

I had 12 years of Catholic education and always thought I could debate anyone, but my knowledge pales in comparison to yours.

Thank you for being a valuable part of this blog and for sharing your "light" with the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

Correction:

"and are" a true scholar.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:38

Thank you for your kind words, but all the praise should rightfully go to God - especially God the Holy Spirit.

Without Him I am nothing and can do nothing.

May God bless you.

Have a happy healthy holy new Year!

Constance Cumbey said...

Mark Shea openly ridiculed me for my work against the New Age Movement.

Constance

Anonymous said...

Constance,

While Mark can be a good apologist, he does have a tendency to let his mouth overload his butt on occasion.

His ridiculing you for your work on the New Age Movement was one such occasion IMHO.

If Mark wanted to express his disagreements with you vis a vis an objective well-reasoned argument, that is one thing, but ridicule is an "ad hominem" attack in my book.

Besides being beyond the pale - especially since it was done openly - such an attack reveals more negative things about the attacker than it does about the one who is attacked!

Constance Cumbey said...

I did not notice the Stormfront link. Most definitely, I have been doing a lot of "skimming". Stormfront definitely concerns me and I will seek an explanation on the air tomorrow.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

I just went to Niki Raapana's blogspot to check out the Stormfront allegations. Most definitely, she does not link to them nor recommend them. She did list them as one of many, many places that had cited her work.

I then just for the fun of it googled my name with "Stormfront" and learned to my horror that they were referencing my work. I do not endorse them in any way -- but if I were going to compile a list of internet sites that mentioned my work, complete honesty would mandate their inclusion.

Most definitely they are not on her list of groups she likes.

Constance

Anonymous said...

Shem 1777 3:44pm

Thank you. I was just thinking of reading the catch up material and ending my short-lived blogging days behind. It does tend to take over your life if you're not careful. I get overwhelmed with information and links and think "how can I possibly follow up on all this", and actually eat, sleep and take care of my family? Dorothy touched on this in one of these threads, about information overload. I think really the whole global movement is just that - a 360 degree assault and it's difficult to follow all the things that they are using. I can't begin to imagine how Constance does it, other than God must have had a very special plan for her and by His Grace and her obediance, she is handling it, well.


I just wanted to say thank you. And may Yahweh and Yashuah through the Holy Spirit, bless you and protect you.

Isn't God wonderful!

Suzette

Anonymous said...

Joyce 1:43pm

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I don't want to get another problem going either. I have the Brown Driver Briggs. Time is my problem.

Your explanation about not putting God in our box made allot of sense. I know that some Christian denominations do not teach that Jesus is actually God, but rather "only" His son, and that is what confused me. I don't believe they are trying to be blasphemous at all, they are trying to maintain that Yahweh gets the highest honor, but it is only through His son, Jesus Christ that we can now approach Him. This belief doesn't change the fundamental beliefs of Christianity, that God the Father sent His only son and that the Holy Spirit is God's active force rather than a separate entity, so I thought it worth considering the possibility. I don't know what seems more awesome and inspiring, A) that God would come to live with man Himself or B) that He would send His only Son and have to watch as He took on the sin of all the world. Many of the scriptures you already mentioned do sound like they are One.

Thanks again

Suzette

Anonymous said...

http://nord.twu.net/acl/talmudiclaw.html
Well, she cerainly does keep up to date on the major antisemitic websites.
Bizarre updates:

Original ACL text: Shmais News Service-Keeping Lubavichers Informed has a lot of nice pictures... including pictures of President Bush waving to reporters on his way to his new Daf Yom Shiur (carrying his copy of the Talmud), and pictures of Menorah ceremonies in the White House and the California State Capitol with Govenor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

{Update by Niki Raapana on November 26, 2006: This picture of Bush with the Talmud and the website I found it on may be fakes. I found this on Robert Lindsay's blog:

begin quote: "The completely bizarre photo of George Bush carrying a hefty Balvi Talmud (one of the Jewish holy books) appeared originally on a website of the radical Jewish supremacist Lubavitcher faction. Although at first I thought the pic was authentic, further research shows that it may in fact be a Photoshopped fake. I apologize for anyone I mislead in the few days I reported the pic as authentic.

"Here is the Lubavitcher site on which the photo first appeared. Note that it says "Purim Spoof" next to the photo. Scroll about 1/2 way down the page to see the photo. Here is a thread, unfortunately on the White Supremacist site Stormfront, that indicates that the pic is apparently fake.

"The pic can also be found on this strange site of the Anti-Communitarian League that opposes the supposed introduction of Talmudic Law into America, which seems to be a bit of a red herring. It also shows up on the occasional blog of Jewish Talmudic scholars. There seems to widespread ignorance that the pic is actually a fake.

"The photo was originally found on the bizarre website (no longer online) of an anti-Semite named Texe Marr who runs something called Power of Prophesy Ministries. This website, while partly factual, insists that Bush is not only Jewish, but he is a practicing "crypto-Jew"!

"Although Marr has done some interesting research into the Jewish backgrounds of modern-day famous figures (he supposedly uncovered the Jewish backgrounds of John Kerry, Wes Clark and Madeline Albright) he should have done better research on this Bush-Talmud photo." end quote)"

Three major ones right here in these few paragaphs. Stormfront, Tex Marrs and Robert Lindsay's website.

Dorothy

Anonymous said...

Suzette,
I have seen the reverse where people just focus on Yeshua and disconnect Him totally from Elohim. It says:

Col. 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

The problem I see is we disconnect the Tanakh from the Apostolic Scriptures and don't see that it is one book. The more I study Torah, the more I understand about Yeshua, if that makes any sense.

The more I study the Apostolic Scriptures, the more I see that He is the realization of all that Tanakh points to. It's not like one is a contradiction of the other.

In our Western minds we have so disassociated the God of Abraham with Yeshua, we don't even see Him as a Jew. We've given Him blond hair and blue eyes and say that He breaks Shabbath and eats pork and that He was there in the beginning. When the world was created by God speaking, He was there.

The best analogy I can make is the Mishkan, the Tabernacle. God dwelled in the Tabernacle, but the Tabernacle was a complete representation of His throne in Heaven.

When Yeshua came, the same way that the Tabernacle represented the throne room, Yeshua represented the Father. God has always wanted us to be in relationship with Him, but He made a new and Living way when Yeshua died and poured his blood our on the mercy seat in heaven.

This one time event, allows us to now appropriate His righteousness and our new identity which is in Him, but He is not separate from His Father. They are one. The new and living way is that we are now the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and so if God is seated on the throne of our lives, if His Torah is on our hearts, we walk with this identity as sons and daughters of the Most High.

There's so much more to this, but just understanding that Yeshua was always there, just not in His incarnate form. I think John 1, is very clear on this subject. It brings us directly back to Genesis 1.

Joyce

Anonymous said...

Susanna,
I quoted to you from Revelations where it clearly states we are not to add to nor take away from the prophecies of this book. It is the last line of the Bible and explicitly forbids adding and subtracting. Did you read my entire post or just focus on a few lines. It helps to read it in context.

The verse in Corinthians says that the Rock is Yeshua...very clearly explains the rock. You missed my whole point about the word "ekklesia" which is used in the Greek Septuagint to describe the "Assembly in the Wilderness" I think the King James might be the only Bible ( no I'm not KJ Only ) that translates "Church in the Wilderness" so at least it is consistent. If the Church started in the Wilderness, how was it built on Peter?

I don't mind answering you, but it's a lot of work to go an pull the same Bible quotes each time, so I'd appreciate if you would reread my comments in their entirety and not pick the part out that seems to help your argument because you loose the sense of what I am saying. Another words look at the entire issue about the word "ekklesia" the numerous verses that describe the Lord as the Rock, ending with the one in Corinthians that indentifies the "rock" as "Christ" So who is the rock?

The changing of the mo'ed whether done by Catholics or Protestants, in my opinion is wrong. Yeshua went to synagogues on the Sabbath, Paul went to synagogues on the Sabbath, they all went to Jerusalem for the Feasts. What the church calls "Pentecost" was a very specific feast which is tied to the counting of the omer from the "morrow" after the Sabbath of Pessah.. It's called sometimes the Feast of Weeks or in hebrew Shavuot.

God gave Torah on Shavout and God gave His Holy Spirit to the Jews from the diaspora and the god fearers who came to Jerusalem for this pilgrim feast. The counting of the omer is tied completely to the feast of Passover. God's calendar is sacred time.

Ex. 12:24-27 “And ayou shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children forever. “When you enter the land which the LORD will give you, as He has promised, you shall observe this rite. “aAnd when your children say to you, ‘1What does this rite mean to you?’ you shall say, ‘It is a Passover sacrifice to athe LORD 1who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when He smote the Egyptians, but spared our homes.’” bAnd the people bowed low and worshiped.

The word "forever" olam in Hebrew means forever.. You're going to tell me you're not Jewish..

Remember how I told you the word qahal and ekklesia are the same according to the Hebrews who translated the Greek Septuagint. Let's look at what the alien ( non -native born is supposed to do)

Num. 15:15 ‘As for the assembly, there shall be aone statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.

The word assembly here is qahal, or ekklesia in the Greek Septuagint.

The point is that the native and the alien were not treated differently in God's eyes.

The problem with the whole concept of church is that they don't see themselves as part of the caleld out assembly.. Israel.. I'm not talking about being Jewish. I'm talking about being grafted into the Olive Tree, that we call Israel. The Church neither should replace Israel or be second to Israel. The believers in the God of Israel are to attach themselves to the olive tree..

Rom. 11:17 ¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the 1rich root of the olive tree,

This verse is specifically speaking to non-native born who are to attach themselves to Israel, and receive their nourishment from the same source.. The Torah, the Living Torah.. Yeshua never contradicted Torah. He couldn't or He wouldn't have been the perfect Passover Lamb who paid for our sins.

Let's look at what should happen if we do this:

om. 11:11 I say, then, Did they stumble that they might fall? let it not be! but by their fall the salvation [is] to the nations, to arouse them to jealousy;
Rom. 11:12 and if the fall of them [is] the riches of a world, and the diminution of them the riches of nations, how much more the fulness of them?
Rom. 11:13 For to you I speak — to the nations — inasmuch as I am indeed an apostle of nations, my ministration I do glorify;
Rom. 11:14 if by any means I shall arouse to jealousy mine own flesh, and shall save some of them,
Rom. 11:15-18 for if the casting away of them [is] a reconciliation of the world, what the reception — if not life out of the dead? and if the first-fruit [is] holy, the lump also; and if the root [is] holy, the branches also.
And if certain of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wast graffed in among them, and a fellow-partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree didst become — do not boast against the branches; and if thou dost boast, thou dost not bear the root, but the root thee!


The nations are fellow partakers of the Olive Tree. Olive trees produce olives, not tomatoes.

Let's look at another verse:

ph. 2:11-13 Wherefore, remember, that ye [were] once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world; and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ,

You have been brought into the covenant by the blood of Yeshua. You haven't replaced Israel. You are not the New Israel. If you belong to Yeshua you are one with Israel and there is no more "court of the Gentiles" . That wall of division was broken when Yeshua defeated sin and death, the enmity of the Torah...i.e. the penalty of death imposed by the Torah.

When Yeshua broke that wall down, the nations were able to partake of the renewed covenant which was in His blood. That is the beauty of the Gospel. The nations don't replace Israel, they become one with Israel in Messiah.

Now this is becoming a reality today with many Jews coming to faith and many Gentile believers joining themselves to congregations who obey the commandments of God, we are seeing the dividing wall be broken and the two become the one new man.

I am not the only one who is understanding what is happening in our day. Literally thousands upon thousands of Jews and Gentiles are worshipping together on Shabbat, celebrating Passover, etc.

This is who we are called to be as the "called-out" assembly. How do we find this unity, in the person of Yeshua and in Torah.

What God is doing today is nothing short of miraculous. He is restoring Israel. Right now it's not a huge, huge movement but it is significant and what is more significant is people are discovering the same things in different parts of the world.

They are asking the same questions about the Bible and seeing that maybe there are things they are missing. It is truly a work of the Holy Spirit and there is no one leader or pope. It's what God is doing in these last days.

Speaking of Peter, look what he says in the book of Acts:

Acts 3:19-21 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that btimes of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the 1Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

WHAT DID God speak about through the mouth of the prophets. . The Restoration of Israel. From ancient times this is what the prophets spoke of, be it Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Hosea, on and on. The Covenant of Peace is with Israel. Are you part of this called out assembly, the one that God is building on the Rock?

If there was a Catholic Church before Pentecost ( Shavuot) it could be restored, but that wasn't what need restoration. Restoration was to come to Israel.

God says He will sanctify Israel forever:

Ezek. 37:21-28 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will atake the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them aone nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and bone king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. “They will ano longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but bI will deliver them from all their 1dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God. “My servant aDavid will be king over them, and they will all have bone shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. “They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and aDavid My servant will be their prince forever. “I will make a acovenant of peace with them; it will be an beverlasting covenant with them. And I will 1place them and cmultiply them, and will set My dsanctuary in their midst forever. “My adwelling place also will be with them; and bI will be their God, and they will be My people. “And the nations will know that I am the LORD awho sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”


READ the passage carefully and see what God is doing.. He's restoring Israel, so the great question is, are you part of Israel, or part of a "church"?

If you don't know who you are, you will not be able to walk in the wonderful promises that God has prepared for you. If you don't know who you are in Messiah Yeshua, you will not be able to walk in your new identity as a "new creation".

This two things are hugely important for walking in the last days. One without the other is not good. We need both. We need to understand our identity in Messiah and how we are grafted into the Olive Tree called Israel.. not to be confused with the secular government Israel, but the Israel that God is in the process of unfolding.

God will pour out on His people a spirit of grace and supplication and they will look upon Him whom they've pierced and weep as one weeps for an only begotten Son....Zechariah 12:10


Maybe you don't think I've answered your questions, but if you read really carefully and try to track with what I'm saying...or more importantly not what I'm saying , but what the Bible is saying you will see that God of the Torah is the same, and Yeshua and He are one and there is no contradiction in any of what I have said...
Joyce

p.s. thank you for your prayers.. Still a bit under the weather. We've passed it around the house..

Anonymous said...

A friend just sent this to me from Christianity Today. It appears that the Church puts their traditions before the Word of God. I actually know this, but don't know if others are aware. Thought all would find it interesting in light of the discussion
Joyce:


9. Roman Catholic bishops revisit inerrancy compromise reached at Vatican II.
Evangelicals tuned in to see what Pope Benedict XVI and the Synod of Bishops would say about "The Word of God in the Life and Mission of the Church." The synod's recommendations echoed the pope's concern to rein in biblical criticism that assumes a "secularist, positivist" hermeneutic. But the pope reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's view that the Bible should be interpreted alongside Church tradition.

Anonymous said...

I thought Susan said she was able to delete her comment.
If anyone knows how to do this please inform me. Thanks.
Shalom,
Barb

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

You quoted a lot of passages from Scripture, but NONE of them CLEARLY STATE that the Bible only is to be the Christian rule of faith.

When you talk to me about "context" you are getting into the area of interpretation which begs the question as to who has the authority to interpret the Sacred scriptures.

Another thing. Please don't try to spin this as if you are doing me some sort of big favor digging up all these passages from Holy Writ for my edification.

What I did was to challenge you to quote me one Scripture passage to back up your little hit and run criticism of my Catholic Rule of Faith.

Is it possible that you are trying to hide behind all those Scripture passages you quoted because you know you can't find a single passage from Scripture that CLEARLY STATES that the BIBLE ONLY is to be the Christian Rule of Faith???

Let me give you a little help. The reason you can't find the passage is because no such passage exists in the Bible.

2 Tim 3:17, which some Christians quote to prove the Bible as the sole rule of faith, does not CLEARLY SAY that the Bible is the sole Rule of Faith.

Although it is profitable for our ends, the text does not say that Scripture is sufficient. It says that the Bible is indeed inspired, but it does not say that ONLY the Bible is inspired. Also the text refers to the Old Testament.

The aid of Sacred Tradition (the Oral Word, that is not in the Bible, the “ written Word”) is also required. See 2 Thess 2:15.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Lastly, St. John tells us that not everything concerning Christ’s work is in Scripture (Jn 21:25).

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

So no, Joyce. You did NOT answer my question. Instead, you hid behind your filibuster.

And since you found it necessary to mention an instance (in your opinion)of Catholic popes putting their "traditions" before the Word of God, let's talk about Martin Luther who began his own "tradition" and put it before the Word of God by inventing the notion of "the Bible only" Rule of Faith - the "man made tradition" you choose to follow.

One has to wonder at the kind of intellect that would invent a "Bible only" rule of faith that can't even be found in the Bible.

If that isn't putting a "tradition" before the Word of God, I don't know what is!

I think I'll stick with the Pope!

Anonymous said...

Susanna,
I think it's pretty clear, but if you want to stand with the Pope, far be it for me to stop you.

As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord... in the words of Yehoshuah who led Israel into the Promised Land.

Joyce

Anonymous said...

On the priest William Johnson:

http://tinyurl.com/6a6k9o

http://tinyurl.com/73u7tk

Evangelical Richard Foster quotes Catholic Mystics and spreads mysticism in the Evangelical world:

http://www.renovare.org/

Tony Jones, Emergent:

http://tinyurl.com/8uljf3

These are all people involved in mysticism from the
video.. There's a lot more out there but this is a start.

Joyce

Anonymous said...

oops wrong thread.
Joyce

Anonymous said...

Joyce,

Exactly the point. YOU think it is "pretty clear."

To others - including me - it is as clear as mud!

And if we others do not understand it this is not because there is some deficiency in our intelligence. It is because there is so very little TO understand insofar as you insist on reading meanings into Holy Writ that simply are not there.

But in the end, you STILL have not quoted me the passage from Scripture that CLEARLY STATES that the Bible only is to be the Christian Rule of Faith. And the reason why is because no such passage exists!

Moreover, that is PRECISELY what you would have to do in order to even begin to persuade me to part company with the authority of the Pope and those bishops in full loyal communion with the Pope.


15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Right back at you, Joyce.

Happy New Year!

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

A great series of posts.

It's hard for me to think of another person who manages to write as much as Joyce while at the same time saying so little of substance.

Wouldn't it be great if she would just answer the question?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 12:13 P.M.

Thanks. I was wondering if anyone else had noticed.

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