"November 3, 2008 by Niki.Reagrdless who wins the election tomorrow,
our nation, like Canada and all of Great Britian, is heading into rapid integration with the European Union. On November 15, 2008 the next president will co-host a meeting with EU leaders. Calling it a "financial necessity," the globalists are openly seeking global solutions. Whoever it is, our newly elected president will give their full support and executive clout to implementing the new global financial, economic, military and social justice system. The big lie is that Obama's "change" is any different from the GOP Doctrine. The neo-con right, the socialist left and the Third Way all agree on the principles for global sustainable development. I'm afraid what will happen if Americans cannot find a way out of this dialectical election madness. . . ."
Check it out and stay tuned!
Constance
188 comments:
UPDATE: Niki who runs this site will be my guest on MY PERSPECTIVE Tuesday night. As "communitarianism" is the official ideology of "globl governance" I am very much looking forward to hearing from her. Please join us at www.themicroeffect.com at 8 p.m Eastern USA time, 5 p.m. Pacific time, 6 p.m. Central time, and 7 p.m. Mountain time.
Constance
The Archbishop of Canterbury warns today that Britain must learn the lessons of Nazi Germany in dealing with the effects of the recession.
By Martin Beckford, Religious Affairs Correspondent (12/22/08)
Dr Rowan Williams risks causing a new controversy by inviting a comparison between Gordon Brown's response to the economic downturn and the Third Reich.
In an article for The Daily Telegraph, he claims Germany in the 1930s pursued a "principle" that worked consistently but only on the basis that "quite a lot of people that you might have thought mattered as human beings actually didn't".
Dr Williams, the most senior cleric in the Church of England, then appears to draw a parallel between the Nazis and the UK Government's policies for tackling the downturn, which he says fails to take account of the "particular human costs" to the most vulnerable in society.
"What about the unique concerns and crises of the pensioner whose savings have disappeared, the Woolworth's employee, the hopeful young executive, let alone the helpless producer of goods in some Third-world environment where prices are determined thousands of miles away?" he asks.
In an apparent reference to the Prime Minister, who has claimed to be guided by a moral compass, the Archbishop also observes "without these anxieties about the specific costs, we've lost the essential moral compass".
It follows a disagreement with the Prime Minister last week in which the Archbishop likened Government policy on spending to "an addict returning to a drug". This prompted Mr Brown to allude to the Biblical parable of the Good Samaritan by claiming he could not "walk by on the other side" as people suffered.
I would personally say that in my humble opinion, the Archbishop gave a pretty good homily/sermon!
Constance
ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY
might have been better off warning about the parallels between the growth of the promotion of the occult taking place in England and the promotion of the occult in Nazi Germany. We had a depression in the US which didn't lead to a Nazi takeover. Now what was the missing ingredient do you think?
Information
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/aug/06/religion.world
Incoming Archbishop of Canterbury becomes a druid
also
http://tinyurl.com/76f4q6
Christianity today in England embraces all manner of odds and ends
But heck, I guess he has to be an expert in something, if not Christianity to earn his salary.
Dorothy
****this from the Centre for
Research on Globalization
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11426
**** this just one paragraph of the article.
This is a very important point, as among many “well-established democracies” are the United States, which is already experiencing a massive shift away from democracy. China, which has been able to emerge rapidly as a result of Western-controlled globalization, and which remains authoritarian, can essentially be viewed as a model for the international system being shaped, as democracies take a turn toward authoritarianism and other rising powers choose to pursue development in the same manner. Essentially, the new international system will mark a move away from democracy and towards international authoritarianism.
YS
DUMBING DOWN OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO -- JUST FUN FUN FUN NOT ACADEMICS
Well, the television show Three's Company where a single guy lives with two single women in a fun filled lifestyle now comes to the University of Chicago. Note: It isn't aimed at romantic couples.
NEWS STORY
University of Chicago to allow co-ed dorm rooms
6 hours ago
CHICAGO (AP) — The University of Chicago is joining a nationwide trend of allowing male and female students to live not just on the same dorm floor, but in the same dorm room.
The school sent a letter out to parents last week informing them of the decision. The school says it was a student-led initiative that isn't aimed at romantic couples. However, the school says couples won't be banned from asking to be roommates when the program begins next month.
Nationally more than 30 campuses allow co-ed dorm rooms.
The University of Chicago program is called open housing and it won't include freshmen. Students do not need parental permission to participate. The school says students will not be assigned mixed-gender housing. Instead it's on a request basis.
Information from: Chicago Tribune, http://www.chicagotribune.com
Dorothy
YS
Thanks for the important catch. We've seen it happening. When we talk about it to others it's good to have this as a source.
Dorothy
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=17804
Headline News
Sunday, December 21, 2008 Ryan Jones
Jimmy Carter proudly becomes Hamas advisor
Former US President Jimmy Carter proudly announced on his website at the weekend that during his recent visit to Damascus he advised Hamas leader Khaled Mashal on what price to demand for hostage Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.
In a trip report posted to the website of The Carter Center, the former president described Mashal and the other Hamas men he met with as respectable, suit-wearing professionals, and pointedly suggested that none of them are religious fanatics.
Etc...
Interesting site. I want to continue to post some of the ideas on Kabbalah and the New Age Movement and connect a few dots for everyone:
Here we see Ervin Laszlo listed on Jerusalem Academy website with well known Kabbalist Rabbi Michael Laitman:
http://tiny.cc/cve6b
Scroll down on the link to see the relationship..
Now let's take a look at Rabbi Michael Laitman and the Bnei Baruch group of Kabbalists:
http://www.kabbalah.info/
and now here we have Ervin Lazlo:
http://tiny.cc/HSwo3
.....on the Bnei Baruch Kabbalah Center website..
....and the World Spirit Forum that Rudi mentioned a while back:
http://www.worldspiritforum.org/shared_downloads/Speach_SGC_HVP.pdf
http://tiny.cc/8TLVq
Please take a very careful look at these links. For those who remember what the Jerusalem Academy wants to do, who Laszlo this should be significant.
I'll add more on another post.
Joyce
Take a careful look at the players on the list at the Word Spirit Forum. As I said, I think Rudi posted it a while back, but in light of the connect to Bnei Baruch and Jerusalem Academy, pay special attention:
http://www.worldspiritforum.org/en/index.php
http://www.worldspiritforum.org/en/speakers/speakers.php
Joyce
Jimmy needs someone to pull his peanut brain out of his own personal manure pile
JOYCE
Just in case you missed it, I'd like to see what you have to say about the New Age connection to Messianic Christianity through the Assemblies of God who started 1/3 of the Messianic Christian synagogues. I'd like to see what you have to say about the statement that 90% of the Messianic Christian churches are charismatic. I posted many links to help you deal with that information.
You are so busy pointing out what you think are New Age connections to Judaism that you miss the New Age connections happening to "your people" in your own backyard, the Messianic Christians.
I notice you pass by anything you don't want to answer such as your Christian history and just when you were a practicing Jew? You just bulldoze right through, hoping no one has a good memory.
Dorothy
Now look at this new forum which is connected to the World Spirit Forum and Ervin Laszlo, Rabbi Michael Laitman, Jane Goodall and others from Findhorn, Goi, Noetic Sciences, etc...
This is a European forum for Spirituality in Economics and Society:;
http://tiny.cc/NKCVC
There is a Laszlo from Budapest in the members list.
http://tiny.cc/jqCm3
Now I am not sure what spirituality has to do with the Economy..but both this organization and the World Spirit Forum have very organized projects to touch the younger generation like the Alliance of Civilizations.
Here's what this European organization states as their mission:
Mission
The European SPES Forum is an international network of individuals and organisations with the overall aim to make spirituality accessible as a public good to as many people as possible. It focuses on experiencebased spirituality that succeeds in making a connection between day-to-day activities and the inner quest for meaning.
World Spirit Forum occurs simultaneously when World Economic Forum of Davos is taking place..
Last year World Economic Forum started talking about spirituality with Tony Blair hosting, Karen Armstrong introducing and the usual array of high level religious leaders.. It was just a nice interfaith dialogue, but when the lines of dialogue and spirituality are blurred we will get some interesting things going on...
It looks like someone things Economics needs more Spirituality..
I hope some on the blog who are reading are starting to connect some of these dots and see how the mysticism of Kabbalah and Christian and Muslim mysticism not to mention Eastern mysticism are all working together to bring "experience" and "spirituality"....and how these things along with the harmonizing of the financial markets and the removal of national boundaries little by little is how Mystery Babylon is coming to fruition before our eyes..
Kabbalah is one key, because Jerusalem will be important. Sufism and Kabbalah have a common history, so does Christian Mysticism.. The three Abrahamic faiths must be united to usher in Mystery Babylon, and people like Laszlo, Benedikt and many, many others are networking non-stop to accomplish this..
All of these things bypass the rational mind and enter into the realm of subjective experience and esoteric wisdom..
Or as the Beatles sand.."All we need is love"...
...and perhaps a little evolutionary conciousness..
Joyce
NEW AGE
I see something very clearly also...how the Messianic Christian movement's view of Judaism is similar to that of the New Age movement and the Nazi movement.
I see very clearly how someone who supposedly loves her "people" so much comes to a Christian website and attacks them behind their back.
I guess the only thing I can do is keep posting information about the Messianic Christian movement.
Dorothy
I don't even know what Kabbalah is. What is it and why should I care? Is it worth me to stop shoveling snow off the drive-way? Actually, I use a snow blower. Should I run around in a panic over it?
I think Kabballa was just fine until Madonna corrupted it.
Take your time shoveling your snow, your not missing out on anything.
Joyce you said:
"Now I am not sure what spirituality has to do with the Economy..but both this organization and the World Spirit Forum have very organized projects to touch the younger generation like the Alliance of Civilizations." and
"It looks like someone thinks Economics needs more Spirituality.."
Has anyone mentioned the movie "Beyond the Secret" yet? Hosted by CNN Larry King coming Jan.15,09
Here's a cut from the discription of the movie Beyond the Secret...
"Join an exclusive panel of motivational experts including Bob Proctor, Marcia Wieder, Christian Simpson, Les Brown, Holli Walker, Mark Moffitt, Paul Martinelli and Steve Siebold as they discuss life Beyond the Secret.
These motivational experts will demonstrate how to apply the concepts from Beyond The Secret in real, tangible ways
– including how to handle today’s turbulent economy and
- specific ways to improve your own life despite our nation’s financial setbacks.
The discussion will then be opened to the audience for an exclusive panel discussion covering topics from wealth to faith and everything in between.
This MAGICAL evening will include awe-inspiring vignettes from the Beyond the Secret DVD and comes JUST IN TIME for charting a new course for success in 2009 and beyond.
Renew your commitment to making “the law of attraction” work for you. There’s no better time than the New Year to realize your full potential, and this inspirational, informational event is sure to be life changing."
I went back for link and it vanished off the "Crosswalk.com" Christian bible tool website.
This could play a part in the whole sceme of things no?
Shalom,
Barb
ps SV-thank you for your kind comment.
I am amazed to hear that the "majority" of Messianic Christian congregations are New Age. Not at all.
I have belonged to two of these, and they were conservative, not New Age. They were outspoken against New Age. And I heard speakers from other Messianic congregations, all of whom were conservative and not New Age. And I listen to God's Learning Channel, a Christian station which has featured "Hebrew Roots" since the late 90's, and is one of the best sources on TV for Conservative news, news you can't get undistorted on CNN and sometimes not on Fox.
I believe the person who says Messianic congregations can be New Age. Anything is possible, especially now as delusion spreads.
Mariel
All,
Here is a list background and the winners of a competition for the character and makeup of Jerusalem by the year 2050.
Notice how the idea of Jerusalem as a singular, Jewish city is not encouraged. This fits in quite nicely with the NA dictum of "all-inclusiveness," (which we all know is actually discriminatory to Christians).
http://web.mit.edu/cis/jerusalem2050/
Also, note this insightful commentary (last years) on the agenda of the Director of the program:
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/3738
MARIEL
The link I gave earlier was to the history of the Messianic movement. It stated that 90% of the churches were charismatic.
I said that Messianic Christianity was New Age because it worked on the premise that Judaism should have disappeared 2,000 years ago when Christianity came on the scene because Christianity is supposed to be a fulfillment of Judaism. This is a premise of the New Age movement. It was also a premise of the Nazi movement. It is spelled out very clearly in the Lucis Trust writings.
No organization is a complete fulfillment of the entire New Age belief system.
I don't know if you belonged to a group that was founded by the Assemblies of God.
If you've ever been to a New Age bookstore you know they are full of charming, intelligent, well-meaning people who truly believe in whatever branch of the New Age movement they are involved with.
One of the attacks on Jews in Lucis Trust writings is that the Jews have always remained separatists. Jews don't blend their religion with Christianity.
Why don't you share what you feel about the Jewish religion? In your opinion is Judaism a valid, complete religion, a religion that doesn't need to be blended with any other?
I really don't want to to be making comments about any branch of Christianity, but I've been put in this position by someone who is distorting information about Judaism and I will not back off.
Dorothy
To Dorothy (8:47 PM)
Very well expressed.
Thank you also for helping us better understand the Messianic links to the new age movement.
Seems to me the best way to understand what Kabbalah is or isn't is to read and watch what the professed experts have written and defined it to be and not be. If our Jewish reader's here can recommend a better source than those who hold the most aspired positions in the largest group of Kabbalists in Israel, I'm opened to look elsewhere. Rav Michael Laitman, establish Bnei Baruch in 1991, after the death of his teacher, Rav Baruch Shalom HaaLevi Ashlag (The Rabash).
Laitman is Professor of Ontology and Theory of Knowledge, PhD in Philosophy and Kabbalah, and MSc in Medical Bio-Cybernetics. He received his PhD in philosophy and Kabbalah from the Moscow Institute of Philosophy at the Russian Academy of Sciences. He has studied Kabbalah for over thirty years, published over thirty books which have been translated into more than twelve languages, written hundreds of articles on Kabbalah, and over 10,000 hours of video/audio Kabbalah lectures.
"What is Kabbalah?"
The first sentence of the Introduction says,"
"The wisdom of Kabbalah is a SCIENTIFIC TOOL FOR STUDYING THE SPIRITUAL WORLD."
Never mind Senior Instructor Anthony Kosinec in the Bnei Baruch Kabbalah homepage introductory video saying, and I quote:
"First let's look at what Kabbalah is not. It is not and has nothing to do with religion,
magic, mysticism, witchcraft, divination, cults healing meditation, self-help, philosophy, theory, parapsychology, ESP, telepathy, clairvoyance, new age, psycho kinesis, superstition, dream interpretation, phrenology, tarot cards, mantra's, yoga, red strings, holy water, blessings, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, or anyism, past life regression, holistic medicine, numerology, faith healing, aromatherapy, secret societies, reiki, hypnosis, channeling, transmutation,
phrenology, astrology, astro travel or projection, lucid dreaming, spiritualism, communicating with the
Dead, out of body experiences, magnetism, voodoo,
Freemasonry, theosophy, reflexology, Ufo's, creationism, fanaticism, or any other belief =Although many of the above mentioned have borrowed and misinterpreted the principals of Kabbalah over the years."
Following what Kabbalah is NOT Kosinec gives his simplest explanation for what Kabbalah IS:
"It’s the users manual for reality.
It’s a map of our sensations and feelings.
It explains how our inner and outer world's are constructed and why. It’s a science so fundamental that it can only be called wisdom. We're familiar with physical forces such as gravity and electromagnetism,
and even the power of thought, but there are forces of a much higher order that act while still remaining hidden to us. Just like we know the effects of electricity, but we can't see it, and we don't know exactly what it is."
"Authentic Kabbalah has been kept hidden for 5,000 years. "
"Kabbalah studies the laws and forces hidden from our five senses."
http://www.kabbalah.info/
"When Rav Kook-the great 20th century Kabbalist and the first Chief Rabbi of Israel-was asked who could study Kabbalah, his answer was unequivocal: “Anyone who wants to.” In the last one hundred years, all the Kabbalists without exception clearly stated, and on many occasions, that today Kabbalah is open to all. Moreover, they said that it is a necessary tool in resolving the global crisis that they predicted would come, and which we are facing today.
According to all Kabbalists, Kabbalah’s hiding days are over. The wisdom of Kabbalah was previously hidden because Kabbalists feared that it would be misused, and misunderstood. And indeed, the little that did seep out evoked numerous misconceptions about it. Because Kabbalists state that our generation is ready to understand the real meaning of Kabbalah, and to clear up the past misconceptions, this science is now being opened to all who wish to learn. "
http://www.kabbalah.info/
engkab/openeng.htm
***In the left hand column on the Home page titled, "Interactive FAQ" There are many questions
covering some astonishing topics. I am finding some shocking answers to questions I would have never presumed to be inter-connected with Kabbalah, such as global governance, world peace and current events as well as prominent New Age individuals that we all have been watching and Constance has spent close to a lifetime reporting on. -Rudi
http://www.questionyourreality.com/
Dorothy, Messianic teachers I've heard have not thought Judaism should disappear into Christianity. They emphasize that Christianity (Jesus as messiah) is a fulfillment of Judaism.
The congregations of which I was a part were not connected to Assumbly of God. One leader was a former Israeli army officer who became Christian and felt he needed to move on from the kibbutz he lived in, because they were hostile to him. The other leader had been a member of Calvary Chapel; his followers belonged to various evangelical churches, and some even retained their memberships, but felt they wanted deeper Judaic studies, including studying Torah more deeply; some members of that congregation were studious Jews who had decided Jesus was indeed the messiah. There was NO charismatic element, and I can tell you that for sure because I have been around charisma, and was indeed a practicing New Ager for over ten years, longer than that if you consider the years in which I was extricating myself from the movement, which meant loss of family and friends as well as spiritual ties.
Do I think of Judaism as a complete religion? Because I am a follower (trying to follow) Jesus, I consider that a complete Judaism would accept him as messiah. Perhaps a more pertinent question, a controversial one, would be this: are Jews "saved" in the sense Christians use that word. My personal (and minority) opinion is that Jews who worship HaShem in spirit and truth are as likely to be on the "roll call" as I am, being a particular people chosen by God; but there are many Jews whose understanding of their own religion is shallow...I leave the matter of deciding about them to HaShem. I am not a judge.
This may be an incomplete answer but it's the best I can do, Dorothy.
Mariel
good post Rudi
India - Pakistan
and so it begins...
hello is there anybody out there?? this is old ozark a callin' wondering if in any of you all took the time to google project bluebeam yet. it seems to be the active ingredient in the armageddon script that will catalyze the strong delusion that perhaps Yahweh will allow satan to perform to complete his cycle of deception. bluebeam could quite possibly create the sky's BRIGHT object that will signal maitreyas up and coming event/speech/broadcast/TRANSMISSION! what do you think constance?
Barb-
Sound like to me that they may be repackaging "The Secret". The times we are in would make it very alluring. Larry King was involved in the "Rethink" conference by Robert Schuller (crystal cathedral). I think Larry has other New Age ties but at the moment I can't think of it.
If you haven't done any research on the Secret. It is very similar to what is done in the Law of Attraction.
The panel of people you mentioned sounds like the same group that promoted "The Secret" on Oprah. Not 100% sure on that.
IMHO, "The Secret" type of things are starting to slip into the charismatic movement very easily. There are lots of parallel books in the same sort of vain.
Thanks for the heads up on the new movie coming out.
that SIGNALS his TRANSMISSION of hocus pocus esoteric demonic trickery. Satan being the prince of the power of the air, and bluebeam fiddlin' round with the airwaves to create illusion/delusion with technology so advanced that the evil genius satan would certainly seen worthy of this superb falsification. this is ozark thinking wow!,what a thing to believe if we could but perceive. Perspective.......
Pakistan military on 'red alert'
Pakistan media is reporting that the country's military is on high alert over a possible strike by India. Monday's reports come after a ratcheting up of tension between the two countries following attacks in Mumbai last month which killed 163 people. The local media attributed its reports to military sources, who were confirming that the navy, air force and army were on red alert.
http://www.daily.pk/local/other-local/8686--pakistan-military-on-red-alert.html
Pakistan jets take to the skies
ISLAMABAD: Fighter jets of the Pakistan Air Force thundered over the capital, Rawalpindi and Lahore all of Monday afternoon, heightening people’s fears that a war was about to break out any minute with India. A brief statement from the Pakistan Air Force said that “in view of the current environment, the PAF has enhanced its vigilance.” The roar of the jets had people reaching for their phones to find out if something serious was afoot. Callers flooded newspapers and television stations for information.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/23/stories/2008122358040100.htm
PAF secures N-sites after tip-off
After confirmation of a report that Indian and Israeli air forces have planned an attack on Pakistan's nuclear installations, Pakistan Air Force sprang into action by sending its fighter jets into the air to thwart a possible air strike on Monday, according to reliable sources.
http://thepost.com.pk/
Indian Air Force stations in cockpit ready alert
Chandigarh-based 12 Wing of the Air Force Station has witnessed hectic activity of late, putting personnel at "cockpit ready alert",
a situation sources said was "hardly routine."
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Air_force_stations_in_cockpit_ready_alert/articleshow/3877482.cms
Perhaps it's already been posted but this says allot.
http://www.maitreya.org/
Suzette
Rudi,
Excellent, he talks about it being passed down though and "unbroken chain",meaning from Adam, that would be the "unbroken chain" of the snake...
Joyce
Barb,
Yes, exactly...I don't think it's going to help the economy to infuse it with that kind of spirituality..
The Secret is bad for sure. I didn't know they were coming out with a new version..
Shalom,
Joyce
I agree you can find new age in all religions, or not religious people. I remember having some very crazy conversations with a person who was a Jew and also was part of the OTO. A follower of Alester Crowley. Talk about weird. I personally know very well this group of people's (person, Rabbi Barney)and as a christian that is very familiar with the new age I don't see any new age in his ministry. Just like any religion their are people who are devout to what their teachers teach and their are those who cary new age definitions with stolen vocabulary words. Great teaching by the way!! http://kehilatariel.org/
This from Maitreya.org
This is another evidence (adding to the prophecies, genealogy, Revelations, Scriptures, etc.) to further prove that indeed Maitreya is from the genetic background that connects Him to the Hebrew race. The genealogy connects Him to King David (Abram/Abraham, etc.), Prophet Muhammad, and the Kings of Persia, etc. This is another evidence for humanity to consider and realize that indeed Maitreya is the Expected One of all religions to come at the End time, which we are in NOW!
http://www.maitreya.org/english/
Genealogy/Genetic%20Test%20
results/genetic_test_results.htm
Interesting that they are claiming the End time.
Suzette,
Marjorie has an interesting post on the December 12 thread (below).
There are a few new profiles on that thread. I no longer click on the profiles on new posters though, too much potential weirdness there.
Hi Barb,
Thanks for letting us know about the great beyond... I agree with Dawn in that it looks to be The Secret repackaged.
I'm thinkin' that although many who jumped on board when Oprah helped to promote this the first time around - may have been duped into thinking that manifesting their thoughts into reality would involve nothing more on their part except reading the book and snapping their fingers.Too lazy to go deep enough to find out what makes it effective. So a ton of books were sold and money was made by those who are more advanced in knowing the ancient mystery occult techniques behind The Law of Attraction. Remember when we were discussing it here when it first came on the scene? That non-human entity named Abraham, "as above so below", The Emerald Tablet etc.? This could just be a ploy to see how many people are still intrigued enough or can be manipulated into buying the book to see what lies BEYOND the Secret... I mean gosh - if Larry King is helping promote it, it must really work, right??? :~O
-Rudi
RUDI
Can you be clearer where you found this information. I went to the site map and didn't find them.
***In the left hand column on the Home page titled, "Interactive FAQ" There are many questions
covering some astonishing topics. I am finding some shocking answers to questions I would have never presumed to be inter-connected with Kabbalah, such as global governance, world peace and current events as well as prominent New Age individuals that we all have been watching and Constance has spent close to a lifetime reporting on. -
If you say this information is there, I'm sure it is. It's just that I searched for it and somehow missed it.
Dorothy
For those watching Tony Blair, Holly carries an interesting article-
http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/editorials/hc-blair1222.artdec22,0,3165516.story
Religions' Role in Global "Alliance of Values"
...
There are 10 lessons I've learned from this undertaking:
...
3. Religious faith can operate positively in support, for example, of the United Nations Millennium Development Goals to reduce poverty and advance development. Or it can operate negatively, through fundamentalism or extremism.
...
6. Faith is not the only means, but is an important means, of providing those values if faith is itself open and not closed; if it is based on compassion and help for others and not on the basis of exclusionary identity.
...
10. Organized religion should be supporting this process, and allowing through it the evolution of faith so that faith can be a positive, constructive and progressive force.
--------
Mariel,
Messianic congregations are like everything else.. It's a mixed bag. You have good and bad throughout. The statistics that were being spouted sound erroneous to me based on what I have seen. There are a lot of little Messianic congregations that are not affiliated with large organizations and the bigger organizations I know of are not affiliated with the Assemblies of God..all though I do know of some that are..
The difference in doctrine between these different organizations and congregations that call themselves Messianic is substantial, just like the Churches, so there's good and bad there.
My main criticism from what I have seen of Messianic congregations is those that are so enamored with Judaism, instead of Torah they unwittingly engage in Kabbalistic things without realizing its source.
The main motivation for people that have decided to follow this path can vary from people who are pulled by Jewish things to wanting to obey Torah, to a love for the nation of Israel...so there are a wide range of motivations and interests within what is labelled Messianic Judaism. There is no expression Messianic Christian that I have heard, at least not widely used. There is a group who call themselves Hebrew Christians and distinguish themselves from Messianic Jews. They again would be closer to the traditional Christian Church in practice.
There are some substantial differences in doctrine and practice, so one could not through them all into a neat box....or I should say, someone may try but it's inaccurate.
As much as I consider myself a Jewish believer in Yeshua, I have some of my own criticisms of things I see in the movement, and one of them would be the people who get involved or subscribe to the ideas of Kabbalah.. Kabbalah is mysticism and a believer in the God of Israel, has no business dabbling in this..
There is more stuff to dig out here because some of the initiatives to unite the religions in the Mediterranean basin, particularly in Spain where the history of Jewish, Muslim and Christian mysticism existed seems to be being resurrected today...
Anyone who engages in mysticism be it a Jew, a Messianic Jew, a Christian, etc...are eating bad fruit and have opened a door to Satan, plain and simple.
Matt. 11:25-27 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. “Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Yeshua reveals Himself to those who are like children..It's not our religious credentials that save us. I'm not against people studying, it just doesn't bring eternal life. When the studying leads someone astray into mysticism or deconstructionist philosophy as is being used in the Emergent Church movement, we can get ourselves into trouble.
I submit to you, anyone who is engaging in mysticism is filling a void in their life, and when you know Yeshua, there is not need to do that..They can intellectualize it all they want but they cannot be intimate relationship with God and do that. He will kick them out of the Garden and shut off the way of the Tree of Life.
Gen. 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the beast of the garden of Eden He stationed the ccherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
We know the way to the Tree of Life is through Yeshua, not through mysticism. He is the living Torah. and when we walk in our New Creation Identity in Him we are in face to face relationship with our Father, and there is nothing else we need.. we are satisfied. We can walk with Him and we have true shalom.
In the Holy of Holies which the High Priest entered once a year, there was the Ark of the Covenant with the tablets, with the manna ( bread of life representing Yeshua) the staff of Aaron, representing the Priesthood. The High Priest had to fill the Holy of Holies with incense to enter in and make expiation, first for himself and then for all Israel. When Yeshua entered one time for all into the heavenlies, He instituted a new and living way. Through the shedding of His blood for all, our sins were forgiven once and for all and we have access to the Father. This is why the curtain was torn in the Temple when Yeshua died, signifying we have access.
If you look at the image of the the cherubim blocking the way to the Tree of Life in the Garden, you will see that there are cherubim on the ark too, with their wings spread.. The torah inside the ark, the manna and the staff point us to Yeshua, the living Torah, the bread of life and our High Priest who shed His own blood once and for all. God was pointing the children of Israel to the way to His throne..
If we begin mixing in mysticism and other "unauthorized practices" it's a bit like what Nabihu and Adab, Aarons sons did when they brought strange fire into the Tabernacle.. which was just a portable Temple.. You saw the results. They died.
Blessings,
Joyce
I should clarify Mariel I should say those who are more enamored with Judaism than the Living Torah because when we say enamored with Torah, it gives the impression that one can be saved by their own obedience to it and I do not believe that's true. Torah is good and holy, but the main thing is it points us to Yeshua, and He didn't abolish it but filled it up to the full measure with significance..(definition of Greek word plethero which is translated in our Bibles in English to fullfill)
Just wanted to be clear.
Joyce
MARIEL
Thank you for the great set of comments. The world is a complex place and if there are Jews who have faith in any branch of Christianity and it leads to a deeper understanding of their responsibilities to God and their fellow man, and if what they have been told about Judaism and Christianity is the TRUTH they have a responsibility to check out that information. Unfortunately for both sides, salespeople for Messianic Christianity have a reputation for truth similar to that of used car salesmen or stock brokers.
I agree with you that there is shallowness in many parts of the Jewish community. Many rabbis do a very poor job of addressing the spiritual needs of their membership.
The problem is different in the Christian community. If a Christian is unhappy with a particular pastor or a particular denomination, there usually are other Christian churches around and an individual can move between churches and still stay a Christian.
In many places there is only one, maybe two, synagogues/temples in a community and the rabbi compromises his views in order to accommodate a wide variety of viewpoints, secular and Reform to Orthodox. (Think Unitarian to evangelical in one church.)
However, for example, this is not the case where Messianic Christians target newly arrived members of the Russian community who have had no chance to learn about Judaism. They don't know the difference between Jews and Messianic Christians. Members of the MC community target them and get their contributions pretending to be Jews. This has been a real problem on the North Side of Chicago where there has been a large Russian Jewish community. As a side note, all manner of New Age salespeople target this audience with their alternative health offers, charging in the hundreds of dollars for their advice and products. The Soviet Jews are not religious and tend to stay in their own communities rather than blend into already existing Jewish communities, so they don't learn what is going on in America.
I can understand how you believe MC is fulfilled Judaism. That is part of your faith. I can respect that. I also like how you handle the question very tactfully. If all of us "let it all hang out" what we thought about other religions, we would have no energy left to fight other battles. Without ever compromising our own beliefs we need to understand we are dealing with other adults not stupid children when we talk about religion. You handled it with tact. Thank you.
Dorothy
JOYCE
I think a major problem arises when you are speaking for yourself but you think you are speaking for all of the people in the world.
You do know there are many people who have tried Messianic Christianity and left it. They have formed organizations.
Are you selling others or yourself?
Dorothy
Anon 10:22pm
Gen 11:6 (ASV)
6 And Jehovah said, Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do: and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do.
God Himself said - anything man purposes to do he can accomplish. So as regards to Project Bluebeam, it's possible. This ability of man to produce anything he imagines is quite frightening when you look at todays entertainment industry, especially movies. When imagination is mentioned in the Bible, it is negative.
Genesis 6:5 (ASV)
5 And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
However, I believe that a loving and just God would not hold accountable those persons who were made to compromise their faith by mind control or any method where the person is unaware of the control and has not brought on the control by their own sin, such as drunkeness or occult indulgences. Just as I don't think He accepts the "conversion" of those individuals who confessed faith in Him at the end of a sword during the Crusades. Either He will rescue His people before this comes, He will protect them from this deception or He will judge accordingly. He, thankfully, judges the heart and only He can see it clearly.
Suzette
Anon 11:58pm
I don't think I'll be checking profiles anymore either.
Suzette
Mariel,
I know you weren't addressing me, but I guess I want to ask you what you do with a verse like this:
Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in ano one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
or this:
Acts 16:17 Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, “These men are bond-servants of athe Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.” ( referring to Yeshua)
or this:
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
or this:
Rom. 9:3 For I could 1wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and ethe giving of the Law and fthe temple service and the promises, etc., etc.. read Romans 9
but especially this:
Rom. 9:32-33 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over athe stumbling stone, just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
I agree that we cannot know what God does in the heart of someone. I truly believe my relatives, many who went to their death in the Shoah were given a chance to receive Yeshua. The reason I believe this is because God is a just and merciful God. Did they? That, I can't know..on this side of eternity.
The people of Torah, like Moses, looked forward and believed. They saw His day..and so were justified by their faith in the promises. To those who look backward...there is no excuse, but thanks to God He is able to touch the hardest of hearts even when someone is on their deathbed and I have seen this.
As believers in the power of the gospel unto salvation, we can't be ambivalent about this issue, but having said that we cannot judge what has taken place in the heart of another and whether or not that person has believed, like the thief on the cross. who realized in his last minutes of life that he was the one worthy of death, not Yeshua.
I personally believe God has a salvation plan for the physical descendants of Jacob, and it is Yeshua, and Yeshua alone. The Messianic movement, as imperfect as it is, is a testimony to that fact and I expect we will have a lot more surprises before Yeshua's return.
Here's what He asks us to do:
Acts 1:6-8 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, ais it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
The kingdom will be restored to Israel. He didn't say, no they're not getting it. They didn't accept Me. Romans 11 addresses this when it says, "in the fulness of the nations, all Israel will be saved" but the righteous requirements will be the same to enter the kingdom. You can be sure of that. God did not allow His Son, to face a painful death to redeem us from sin, so that we can reject Him on the basis of our ancestry.
If that were so, why did He say that He came first an foremost to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, but the gospel would start in Jerusalem...where you had the House of Judah.
He wants us to be His witnesses...that's our responsibility.. what happens in someone's heart is in the Lord's hands..
It's important that we, who have tasted His salvation don't stop testifying to what He has done in our life.. You never know how He might want to use you..
Blessings in Yeshua,
Joyce
"The European Union and Brazil intend to speak in the future WITH ONE VOICE" on the international finance crisis, the presidents of France and Brazil said Monday at the second EU- Brazil summit. French President Nicolas Sarkozy, the current EU president, and Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said their positions were close to one another and would be heard at the next G20 meeting on April 2 in London, when emergency talks continue in the search for a new global financial order, Sarkozy said after the meetings.
EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso also participated in the meetings."
source: earth times, today.
farmer
More from http://www.maitreya.org/
THE TEMPLE
The shape of The Greatest Sign will be built as THE
TEMPLE. Each of the seven sub-signs (symbols of the
religions of the world) will be an entrance to the temple. A
GREAT LIBRARY OF BOOKS related to all the religions
of the world will surround the center of the temple. This
temple will be another symbol TO UNIFY ALL.
Universities teaching THE NEW SCIENCES (also
other necessary topics) can be built around these
temples. The science of the Golden Age will be based
on the understanding of the deeper levels of the universe
through SPIRITUAL SCIENCE (Science Based On
Spirit*).
THE WORD
NETWORKING
Not only will Maitreya and his teaching unify
humanity, but it is THE SIGN of the coming of THE NEW
ORDER OF THE AGES. In the Age to come, science
and spirit will be combined. As it was mentioned, these
new kinds of scientific discoveries (Science Based On
Spirit) should be encouraged.
Therefore a GREAT preparation in this level also is
necessary so the new discoveries and scientific
pursuance would be coordinated and prosper.
Maitreya will work with other chosen ones (Elects, the
collective Messiah) in this regard, so humanity will
achieve the highest standard of living, and many other
UNCOUNTABLE BENEFITS. In this regard a GREAT
NETWORKING between pioneers should be provided.
SUMMARY
In brief, the objectives of the Mission of Maitreya can
be summarized as follows:
1 - World distribution of literature from the Mission
is NOW AVAILABLE: the book The Holiest Of The
Holies (THOTH); also creation of a library for all kinds
of spiritual literature.
2 - A new WORLD education program, including
networking spiritually realized teachers, volunteers,
and visionaries.
3 - And the MOST IMPORTANT part of our work:
The formation of the COMMUNITIES OF LIGHT.
Okay back to mysticism:
For all you who have read the previous posts on this subject, here is a Sufi blog with Rabbi Michael Laitman of the Bnei Baruch Kabbalah Center:
http://wulfrunasufi.wordpress.com/2008/04/
...also linked with Laszlo, Jerusalem Academy, and World Spirit Forum.
For those who don't know what sufism is, it is the mystical branch of Islam. The whirling dervishes who work themselves into a trance would be one example..Sufism, Kabbalah and Mystical Christianity grew up side by side in Medieval Spain where there were sometimes.. It appears that there was borrowing of ideas between these three traditions and I believe organizations like the AoC or Jerusalem Academy are particularly interested in seeing this kind of spiritual ecumenism eventually.
Jerusalem Academy is very open about this on their site. AoC takes a slightly different approach, but if you explore some of the focus on Spain ( Solana terroritory) you will see because of the history of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, people are looking to see how this might be applied in modern day conflicts like the Middle East conflict, and specifically how to resolve the problem of Jerusalem. We should all be watching this very carefully.
http://tinyurl.com/8xz3s7
Listen to Alice Bailey and others support Kabbalah:
http://tiny.cc/gRVg9
It's the second film down and the first 2 and half minutes are just bizarre music, so you have to get past that. I will give Barb a warning on the Alice Bailey quote. She was absolutely demonic..
Here's part 2:
http://tiny.cc/zzDew
It also talks about how the pop side of Kabbalah is being spread and also refers to back to the Middle Age..
Joyce
From the NYT, a discussion of how Yeshiva University is using the Madoff scandal as a teaching tool.
A bit off topic but then again, maybe not so much. From the article:
“It is an opportunity to convey to students that ritual alone is not the sole determinant of our Judaism, that it must be combined with humanity, with ethical behavior, with proper values, and most important of all, with regard to our relationship with other human beings.”
Read more:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/nyregion/23yeshiva.html?_r=1&hp
Sin, atonement, repentance...these are terms rarely heard let along discussed in a university classroom.
Here is a longer part of the same, parts 3 & 4:
http://tiny.cc/e7wv8
It's a little long but seems well worth watching from what I have seen. A Kabbalist on the site talks about meeting with the Dalai Lama and finding similarities..
There are more parts on Google, so you can find them easily if this series interests you. For you are shoveling snow...keep shoveling. Hope you've cleared enough snow to see the road ahead of you..
Joyce
JUST TO MAKE SURE
Those of you who are quoting from this Maitreya website should know it's not connected with Benjamin Creme. There are several different Maitreya things going on.
Read here
http://www.maitreya.org/english/antichrist.htm or http://tinyurl.com/a6peer to see the comments on Benjamin Creme.
Dorothy
This is the Bnei Baruch Kabbalah
Home Page.
http://www.kabbalah.info/
Left side of page under'Navigation'
is a list of topics. 8 down it says 'Interactive FAQ'
When you click on it the page will come up with Anthony Kosinec in a white box.You can either "skip" or wait but when he finishes talking there will be a list with a ? . Highlighting one of the five
and clicking will show a list of questions under each heading. It will self direct
if you click a question. Some answers come up automatically, others by choosing either 'audio', 'video', or 'article' at the top right of screen.
JOYCE
The link you posted at 2:32 am is such a hokey video with the title.
Another wacky source with no credibility.
Home Videos Channels Community
KABBALAH SECRETS REVEALED !! SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN !! with the tags
Now claiming to be Jewish, you have to know the Synagogue of Satan bit is part of the antisemitic lingo. Now why would you be pushing antisemtism?
Tags for the video
NEW WORLD ORDER OF FEMA CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN USA EXPOSED ILLUMINATI FREEMASON CONSPIRACY ANTICHRIST BEAst Russia War bailout passed passes house bush cheney rove mccain clinton joe biden palin obama iraq war iran russia georgia ivaw imf wto cfr world bank federal
reserve rockefeller rothschild alex jones fox vfw mason freemasons kbr halliburton economic collapse amero nafta cafta spp nau ron paul baldwin mckinney nader mike gravel dow stock market 9/11 sheehan wtc communism paulson
Real high class sources for your bibliography? No, bottom of the barrel!! What next? Eustace Mullins?
Dorothy
RUDI
That much I found on my own. I can't find any of the following which you said are there:
I am finding some shocking answers to questions I would have never presumed to be inter-connected with Kabbalah, such as global governance, world peace and current events as well as prominent New Age individuals that we all have been watching and Constance has spent close to a lifetime reporting on. -
Can you give me the exact page where there is the link to all of he prominent New Age individuals or global governance?
Dorothy
Hi Suzette,
The Maitreya link you gave us sure is an interesting site. I never saw one quite like it before. Very Interfaith looking, with all the religious symbols. As Dorothy mentioned they aren't affiliated with Lucis Trust/Creme but they do mention Benjamin Creme here on the site.(scroll down to "antichrist")
http://tinyurl.com/9zf6hv
http://www.maitreya.org/english/others_sayings.htm#Miscellaneous
Quite the logo. Same spirit- different group:
"One World, One Humanity, One Savior, One God"
Thanks.
- Rudi
Kabbalah
Bnei Baruch Kabbalah
Education & Research Institute
The 3rd World Spirit Forum in Arosa
2006 event.
All videos on this page have information supporting my earlier comment. Additional information is covered else-where throughout the site as well as documented on the And World Spirit Forum website. Additional information is found on Laitman's personal blog. Rav Laitman's lecture in the above event:
"A New United Civilization"
http://tinyurl.com/7x8xls
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/kabbalah-worldwide/3rd-world-spirit-forum
Prominent Parcicipants:
Rav Dr. Michael Laitman
Dr. Jane Goodall
Prof. Tu Weiming
Mr. James O'Dea
Prof. Moty Benyakar
Mrs. Audrey Kitagawa
Dr. Elisabet Sahtouris
Prof. Ashok Gangadean
Mr. and Madame Hiroo Massami Saionji
Mr. Van Jones
Prof Franz Josef Radermacher
Mr. Jonathan Granoff
Mrs. Lillian Holt
Photos at bottom of page show
Rav Laitman with Ervin Lazslo
Rav Laitman personal blog:
http://www.laitman.com/
Rudi said: “Quite the logo. Same spirit- different group:” and the symbol in the middle is a swastika!
Wow, you learn something new every day - today I learnt that I must be a new ager by the definition posted by Dorothy.
Dorthy said:
"I said that Messianic Christianity was New Age because it worked on the premise that Judaism should have disappeared 2,000 years ago when Christianity came on the scene because Christianity is supposed to be a fulfillment of Judaism. This is a premise of the New Age movement. "
First, to be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ - that means Jesus Christ, God Himself in human form - not a follower of a particular church. That also means that you believe the Bible to be the word of God and the truth.
If you believe the truth, then you also believe the part of the Bible when Jesus says that He is "the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6 NIV) and that He is the fulfillment of the Law "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:17-18 NIV).
Peace,
Bobbie
The video I posted is not high quality, but quotes orginal sources.. and speaks a truth. It also quotes from the Bible, and compares the texts to the Bible.
Not everyone has a big budget or a great speaking voice, but if they say the truth I'll listen to them.
The expression Synagogue of Satan is actually an expression which is used in the Book of Revelations to describe people that say they were Jews but were practicing evil. It's actually not anti-semitism.. it's anti apostasy. The Bible isn't even an ounce anti-semitic especially since it's written completely by Jews, but I do understand why someone might interpret that title this way if they don't know the context..
In the Bible, God tells us He judges the shepherds who lead people astray, much more harshly than a normal person..
I'm watching right now and he's quoting from Anchor Bible Dictionary, which comes out of Yale and is respected as far as Bible Dictionaries go. There are Jewish scholars who have contributed to it.. Earlier he quoted from the actual texts of know Kabbalists.. so for those who are interested I do think it draws links between Kabbalah and other types of mysticism.
Joyce
this has nothing to do with the video I posted:
"Tags for the video
NEW WORLD ORDER OF FEMA CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN USA EXPOSED ILLUMINATI FREEMASON CONSPIRACY ANTICHRIST BEAst Russia War bailout passed passes house bush cheney rove mccain clinton joe biden palin obama iraq war iran russia georgia ivaw imf wto cfr world ban"
FYI
Joyce
Now I know why they used to say that men had to be 40 to study Kabbalah.. there is someone explicit sexual content in the video, which he ties into Canaanite fertility rites and Kama Sutra...Just a heads up...
Joyce
Rudi,
Thanks so much for being a voice of sanity here!
Dorothy,
I really wish you would stop insulting charismatic Christians. Most are definitely NOT New Age. Gifts of the spirit are necessary when the enemy is using every trick in the book in these last days.
Peace.
JOYCE
Those were the tags used at Youtube for the video you posted. Probably for the entire disgusting video series connected to the one you posted. The tags are put up by the people who post the video. Don't pretend you don't know that.
Dorothy
RUDI
That'a a link that I gave when I pointed out that that there is no connection. According to them Creme is working with the devil. Their Maitreya was born in 1944 and Creme's was born in 1962.
It doesn't look like they have anywhere near the following Creme does. A P.O. Box in Albaquerque is not exactly hot shot. I guess where there is a buck to be made, somebody will put up a website these days. Two thousand years ago there were a lot of religious/political leaders with followings. Time doesn't change the nature of people. Probably why the New Testament warning telling people not to be gullible where pretend leaders are around.
Dorothy
JOYCE
Oh good heavens. Some more off the top of your head information about the Kabbalah left there by the garbage sites you use as sources. The warning was because there are too many people who have no idea how foolish they are. A little learning is a dangerous thing in the hands of a fool and it always has been.
Dorothy
JOYCE
Nice try. I wasn't talking about the technical quality of the video.
To help others get past your effort to explain away using he video, I will use a comparison with cooking because using a kitchen is similar to using a library. If I take ingredients that are wholesome in themselves and put them together where the only thing they have in common is that they are food, some very inedible results will occur.
It's the same thing with food for the brain only a library is much larger. Very foolish conclusions will be presented when using books and taking quotes out of context.
You've been trashing Judaism since you first came to the blog. Of course you will use any kind of trashy material to support your pre-formed conclusions.
Dorothy
BOBBIE
Since I don't know you, I have no idea whether you are a New Ager. I know you hold a belief in common with the New Age movement based on what you wrote.
Faith is why someone is willing to believe a viewpoint is truth when it may or may not be. Humans have faith in many things and will argue all day and night based on what they believe to be truth. That goes for every person, every culture, every place on the earth, every religion, every scientific fact, every opinion, every thing that can cross a person's mind.
This is why we must be as honest and as careful as we can when working with any kind of information, documenting with valid sources as much as possible. It's why serious authors use footnotes and use bibliographies so that readers can see the sources used by those authors.
You have reasons for thinking what you believe is the truth as do I. Our sources don't match. That doesn't make you wrong and it doesn't make me wrong. We just disagree on what is the truth. If we were at a seminar or in the same classroom where we had hours and hours to discuss our sources, we might agree, but until then we simply don't agree on what is the truth.
Dorothy
I will repeat for those on the blog, the video uses original source materials. The man is not a professional film maker, but the materials he presents from their original sources are quite shocking, but do appear to be quite authentic. He is giving all of his sources.
Towards the end, it is pretty tough to listen to, so that is just a warning ...I do recommend praying for protection for those who chose to listen to the end because the narrator is reading from diabolic texts.
The man is talking about many kinds of mysticism, not only Kabbalah.. From it you can begin to see the parallels.
Joyce
Last night I watched the History
Channel explain away at least three
Older Testament stories and perform
it's usual tap dance around the plain
language of the Scriptures.
As they always do, they trot out
a series of "experts" ( atheists all )
who proceed to give us a "rational
explanation",always supposedly
based on new discoveries about the
life and times of the Patriarchs.
The one thing that they all seem
to agree on is that the Bible is a
book of folklore which is never
really rational or factual. That
notion would simply not jibe with
their Liberal Arts indoctrination.
Only atheism is acceptable.
The funny thing is that what passes
for science requires more faith to
believe than the traditional view.
They ask the questions, lots and
lots of questions, and they answer
their own questions, often with more
questions in the endless psy-op
which passes for academics these days.
Thus , the Passover was a incredible
series of cataclysms which somehow
happened to Pharoh and the Egyptians
but somehow, they don't say how,
none of these catastrophes had any
effect on the Hebrews. It turns out
that it was Moses, who, it turns out,
was actually a military genius, and he
is the one who should get all the credit.
The pillar of fire and smoke was a diversion
tactic by Moses. The crossing of the Red
Sea was not a miracle at all, though the new
"scientific explanation" is a miracle,
of creative thought, by
the folks at the History Channel, where
anything is preferable to believing the
plain words of the Bible. Primitive people,
don't you know, are always attributing
everything to God. Moses and his "army"
are brilliant tacticians, and amazingly
clever enough to fool the greatest army
in the world at that time, yet at the same
time they were primitive and
superstitious...hmmm. There was no way
to explain away the crossing of the
Red Sea, so they just decided to change
it a tidal basin called
the Sea of Reeds. Sorry folks but that's
the only way we can tear it down. And
the water never really came up and
washed over the Egyptians, like the
Bible says, it was just too muddy
for them. Ah modern education.
But they don't stop there. Then this
series on History Channel,
(mystery channel ), proceeds to tear down
a number of other stories in the Bible
in the exact same manner. And the
conclusion is always a new set of
questions, which they leave off by
saying "we may never know"
Indeed.
Their consistent about one thing though.
In every case, like Joshua and the walls
of Jericho, it was not God but the
overwhelming intelligence of the
Hebrews who accomplish everything
So all the credit goes to you know who
and there really is no God.
I get it.
Then I turned the channel to the
Discovery Channel and they're
busy dismantling the New Testament.
It's the exact same mindset and
same conclusions and same loaded
questions.
Welcome to the NWO everybody.
RUDI
Thanks for the link. which I did some research. I should have been looking at the Kabbalah Worldwide link rather than the FAQ one.
The program was not run by Rabbi Laitman. He was a speaker at Goi Peace Foundation (out of Japan)functions in 2005 and 2006. He went on tour in 2007 but it was not connected with them.
It looks as if the World Wisdom Council is pretty much defunct, replaced by Shift in Action
http://www.shiftinaction.com/discover/search
which I posted information about when I was showing how Obama was supported by New Age leaders. Rabbi Laitman is not on that list.
http://www.laitman.com/2008/08/all-the-people-in-the-world-are-sick-with-the-same-illness/ or
http://tinyurl.com/97qsvr
August 2008
My (Rabbi Laitman's) Answer:
"I don’t associate myself with any organization, including the World Wisdom Council, and I have no connection with any spiritual leaders. I only participate wherever I see an opportunity to disseminate Kabbalah. Kabbalah is so vastly different from other methods at the root, that we cannot unite or work together with any earthly method or religion."
He probably should take the information off the website about his earlier participation with the Club of Budapest, but then he might be accused of hiding something by conspiracy minded people.
Dorothy
Getting back to the subject of Andalousia, there was a conference last year on the subject of these esoteric pracitices:
http://www.esotericquest.org/plenary.html
More about Ramon Lull, Christian mystic on the Theosophy Trust site:
http://tiny.cc/SSqQi
Joyce
I still don't get why I should care about Kabbalah. I'm not planning on getting involved with it. Remember, always have some degree of skepticism when you see video on YouTube. People post any ridiculous thing.
David in Battle Creek (B.C.)
12-23-08
Rudi,
Hi, I love your posts. Thanks for checking it out. I felt like I had really found something interesting, and was wondering if it was already covered and therefore I was being redundant or if it just wasn't fitting in with the topics here (but sure seemed to).
I didn't realize until I linked on the url Dorothy sent that these are not the same group as Creme, but so absolutely similar. They are even more frightening to me as they adhere much more to scripture and still have the "one" thing and the mysticism and meditation. Also reading on their take on Creme, they still say that to reach God you find yourself.
http://www.maitreya.org/
English/antichrist.htm
...........This again is against the Words of God that atman and Atman, self and Self, you and God are One, “Know thyself to know God.” Now, not only do you have to know Mr. Creme’s Maitreya, you then have to know many cosmic christs, etc. Where do all the obstacles end? You then can never reach God because there is another false christ you have to know, satisfy, worship, etc..............
The Scriptures clearly say that we are in the image of God and by knowing the self we can know God..............
I haven't read the Koran or all of the Old and New Testaments but I don't recall anywhere that it teaches that if we know ourselves we will know God. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
This group seems more subtle than Creme's...scary.
Suzette
To Dorothy (8:45 AM):
Re: "Their Maitreya was born in 1944 and Creme's was born in 1962."
Do any of you remember the famous psychic, Jean Dixon?
Along with her many other predictions (most of which did not come true), she once stated that the anti-christ was born in 1962.
So, I guess now we know that Jean Dixon was a new ager.
Joyce:
Now really Joyce - apart from Demi Moore, Madonna, and Gershon Scholem, who cares about Kabbalah?
What percentage of the population practice ANY (and I mean ANY) form of Kabbalah? (That's a rhetorical question by the way).
If you are going to post, please post something relevant.
Thank you in advance.
Paul 10:25 am
We have been watching some of these as well on National Geo channel. Noah was just a merchant with a boat, Sodom and Gammorah was a meteor storm....They've been putting allot of these out recently. I had already seen the one on Noah some time back but it seems they've stepped it up and are covering all the major Biblical events with some "scientific" explanation. It's interesting that they are so busy with these topics this time of year and with all the things that are potentially on the horizon. There's a myriad of topics in history they could cover and yet they are focusing on debunking the Scriptures.
Suzette
THE LIBERAL ARTS
Paul:
How's this for a sweeping generalization:
"No one who works with trees and bushes for a living can possibly know anything about religion or God."
The New Age belief as exemplified and expressed by Richard Falk in World Faiths & the New World Order believes that a "spiritual shift" is necessary to induce their desired political one.
Constance
12/23/2008
Joyce; you go on and on about How Jesus is at the Father's side, is the living Torah and his blood saved believers for all time but all this contradicts the very eternal Torah to which you pay lip service.
Why does God need anyone else to redeem/save when He can do it perfectly well by Himself??? God is God ALONE and is our only Savior as Scripture makes clear.
All other gods are idols and following is the unrefutable Scriptural proof: not just one verse but many, many verses. I recommernd that you print this out, hang it on the wall and study it often. It is much more authoritative than your smoke and mirrors.
[Exodus 20:]
1 God spoke all these words, to respond: 2 "I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 You shall not have the gods of others in My presence. 4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
[Deuteronomy 4:35]
You are the ones who have been shown, so that you will know that God is the Supreme Being, and there is none other besides Him!
[Deuteronomy 4:39]
Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other!
[Deuteronomy 32:39]
See, now, that I, I am He -- and no god is with Me . . . .
[I Samuel 2:2]
There is none holy as the Lord. There is none beside Thee; neither is there any Rock like our God.
[I Kings 8:60]
So that all the nations of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other!
[II Kings 19:19]
Now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all kingdoms on earth may know that You alone, O Lord, our God. [also Psalm 113:5]
[Isaiah 40:18]
To whom then will you liken God? To what likeness will you compare Him?
[Isaiah 40:25]
“To whom then will you liken Me, that I should be his equal?” says the Holy One.
[Isaiah 42:8]
I am the Lord, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images!
[Isaiah 43:10-11]
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.”
[Isaiah 44:6-8]
This is what the Lord says, Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty, “I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God! Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare it and lay it out before Me . . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are My witnesses. Is there any god besides Me? No, there is no other rock; I know not one.”
[Isaiah 44:24]
Thus said the Lord, your Redeemer, the One who formed you from the womb, “I am the Lord Who makes everything, Who stretched forth the heavens alone, Who spread out the earth by Myself.”
[Isaiah 45:5-6]
I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God . . . . I will strengthen you . . . in order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other!
[Isaiah 45:21-22]
. . . Who announced this from before, who declared it from the distant past? Is it not I, the Lord, and there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other!
[Isaiah 46:5]
To whom shall you liken Me and make Me equal and compare Me that we may be alike?
[Isaiah 46:9]
Remember the first things of old, that I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me.
[Isaiah 48:11]
. . . and My honor I will not give to another.
[Hosea 13:4]
I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no god but Me, no savior except Me!
[Joel 2:27]
You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and I am the Lord your God, there is no other; and My people shall never be ashamed.
[Psalm 73:25]
Whom have I in heaven but You? The earth has nothing I desire besides You.
[Psalm 81:8-9]
Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you; O Israel, if you would listen to Me! Let there be no strange god among you; nor shall you worship any foreign god.
[Nehemiah 9:6]
You alone are the Lord; You made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens and all their host, the earth and all that is upon it, the seas and all that is in them, and You give life to all, and the heavenly host bow down before You.
[I Chronicles 17:20]
O Lord, there is none like You, neither is there any god beside You, according to all that we have heard with our ears!
Len
Hello Len:
Happy Chanukah!
Would you be able to write a little bit about the following:
1. The Orthodox Jewish community's attitude toward/strategy for reaching Jews who are (1) of Jewish ethnic origin but non-religious (2) practice Liberal or Reform Judaism. Is there a unified attitude or strategy with regard to these two groups of people?
3. What percentage of Jews in the United States are Orthodox? Is it correct to say there is general uniformity of belief amongst Orthodox Jews?
Thank you.
Len, apologies that should have read:
"(2) practice of either Conservative or Liberal/Reform Judaism (i.e. a non-Orthodox form of Judaism)"
Suzette -
that passage does not exist in any credible version I know of in the Bible - or Koran.
The quote you have is definitively and definitel new age.
But - then again - lets look at it from the original lie:
Genesis 3 KJV
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Striking similarities -
DouginMI
Here is an interactive site with some of the who's who of the New Age and their plans to fix the world. They have links to AoC with the Abraham's Initiative where Jews, Muslims and Christians visit one another's holy sites:
http://www.consciouscollaboratory.net/#-34
There is Ashok Gangadean who is co-chair of the World Wisdom Council. World Wisdom Council is connected to Bnei Baruch Kabbalah Center so we are starting to see connections between World Wisdom Council and players in AoC.
Ashok was also a clown along with H.E. Benedikt of Jerusalem Academy and Ervin Lazlo and Rabbi Michael Laitman, so these folks run around together:
http://clownship.org/content/view/18/73/lang,de/
Here he is on Awakening Mind:
http://www.awakeningmind.org/index.php
I just want to paste a quote from one article to give you an idea of where he is coming from:
Let us call this the fundamental ((law of universal relativity)). It expresses a global truth of all hermeneutical, rational life.
This means of course that any great 'script' – whether of ((DAO)) or ((AUM)) or ((YAHWEH)) or ((CHRIST)) or ((ENERGY)) ... are all renderings of the ((Original Script of Logos)). The Text of Dao is an expression of the ((script of Logos)) ... that may to a greater or lesser extent formulate and express the ((logic of Logos)). Similarly, the Judaic biblical Script may well be an authentic expression of the ((Infinite Word)); and the Gospels may well capture the ((Living Logos made Flesh)) ... and so too with all the great 'scripts'.
The obvious point here is that if our great ((sacred scripts)) are ((expressions)) of ((Infinite Logos)) ... this would suggest that all /egocentric interpretations/ or /translations/ of these ((Scripts)) would be fatally flawed. If ((DAO)) expresses the ((Grammar of Logos)) then any /interpretation/ or /translation/ that is lodged in the /hermeneutic/, /semantic/, /logic/ of /egocentric reason/ would be compromised. ((DAO)) cannot be rendered in the hermeneutic of /Dao/. The ((Word of God)) cannot be rendered in the /egocentric word/, and is violated by reducing it to the /Word of God/ ... and so on.
It is this article if any of you want to read the whole thing:
http://www.awakeningmind.org/pages/lodarticle.php
This is not light reading, but might give some inkling as to how these folks see this evolutionary conciousness that he Ashok calls the Awakening Mind.
I'm hearing a lot of similarities between this and the Emergent Church..
...but I think this quote explains the most:
There are two ways of knowing and two kinds of knowledge. Egocentric knowing eclipses primal knowledge and is lodged in a chronic pattern of fragmentation and dualism. It cannot process the infinite structure of the unified field. In contrast, the quest for primal knowledge breaks down barriers and crosses into the play of Logos. The awakening of primal knowledge involves nothing less than the awakening of our being and participation in true Knowledge.
More later,
Joyce
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it;for the time is near.
Len said :
"Why does God need anyone else to redeem/save when He can do it perfectly well by Himself??? God is God ALONE and is our only Savior as Scripture makes clear."
I just want to add one vers :
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
Proverbes 30/4
Frences
Suzette,
In response to your comment:
However, I believe that a loving and just God would not hold accountable those persons who were made to compromise their faith by mind control or any method where the person is unaware of the control and has not brought on the control by their own sin, such as drunkeness or occult indulgences. Just as I don't think He accepts the "conversion" of those individuals who confessed faith in Him at the end of a sword during the Crusades. Either He will rescue His people before this comes, He will protect them from this deception or He will judge accordingly. He, thankfully, judges the heart and only He can see it clearly.
Well said. And you are absolutely correct.
There are degrees of sinfulness. And the degree to which any person has sinned is always proportionate to the degree of freedom with which that person sinned. A person who through no fault of his/her own sins ingorantly has not sinned freely.
AGAIN JOYCE
Joyce, anyone who reads here knows your agenda by now. You just bulldoze past information that goes against what you post no matter how factual it is compared to your nonsense. You hope they will forget.
Some might wonder why your posts are so long. I don't.
Cults primarily use two techniques to convince entrants to come in.
One is information overload and the other is information deprivation. The Moonies, one of hundreds of cult operations, were very skilled in these techniques so the most was written about their connection to them.
In information overload the victim is given so much information that he cannot process it all. He then has to make up his mind rapidly whether to accept it all or risk being wrong, making a mistake that will lead to his downfall.
You put so much up in the way of words and links that even people who are home all of the time can't keep up. It's why you've gotten so careless and feel free to use such garbage sources. You trust that readers will just accept your conclusions without checking out your sources. After all, it isn't polite to say that a person is an out and out liar without taking the time to check out every one of the links you post. And then again you invoke the name of Jesus as some sort of shield protecting you from criticism. How can anyone who professes to follow Jesus be a liar.
And you try the same with Jews. Jews aren't going to criticize someone who claims to be Jewish you think. After all we are to believe that you are just trying to help the Jewish community purify itself.
Well, you aren't Jewish and you lie very easily. And you do it anonymously so that nothing can be traced back to an identified person or an organization. You are dispicable.
The World Wisdom Council is dead.
Rabbi Laitman is not affiliated with any organization other than his.
There is no conspiracy to get people to follow the Jewish Kabbalah in order to run the world.
There is a New Age plan to destroy Judaism and Christianity, and you are helping it.
Dorothy
WHAT'S YOUR POINT CONSTANCE
Are you allowing this disinformation campaign to go on so that there will be many hits to this blog, keeping your blog on the top of hit lists?
Or do you really support Joyce's messages, conclusions, sources enough to stay out of the battle.
Joyce and Paul are dangerous people, leading readers here to believe that this is becoming a blog supporting antisemitism.
If Len and I weren't on the scene, just how far would they be taking their messages without your interference?
This blog isn't a court of law where two sides have come together to resolve an issue and the judge can be neutral until enough information is presented and the judge can make his decision.
This blog was to be a source of information on the New Age movement. If you haven't reached a conclusion as to what the New Age movement is about, how it operates and uses people to carry its message, then tell us that. Some of us already know.
Dorothy
OBAMA
I was just talking with one of the readers of this blog and we came to the conclusion that cult technique of information overload is being used as a support for the Obama cult that was developed.
We are bombarded with Obama information on a daily basis, so much it is not possible to keep up with it. There is the Obama network of millions of people. There are the calendars, the scrapbooks, the coins, the pictures and all of the cult pamphernalia.
We are told of every little thing connected with his political life, his political stance, his followers, where he is staying, even whether he smokes.
We are bombarded with information about his family, the wife, the girls, their plans for the White House, where the girls are going to school, where they will stay before they go to school.
No one is asking for all of this information. It is being shoved at us on a daily basis.
Information overload for the Obama cult.
Dorothy
I agree with what Dorothy said.
Please do something Constance this blog is becoming a joke, I am not comfortable here. This could be a great blog but there is something very sinister being allowed to happen.
Please take control of this blog.
Carrie
If Almighty God's warnings "touch not" regarding all forms of mystical, occult, esoteric practices are not enough there may be another more palatable deterrent to ignoring His command.
This article traces the modern history of Kabbalah from the early 1950's when Shlomo Shoham, who became an Israel Prize-winning author and criminologist, set out to look for Kabbalish Rabbi Yehuda Ashlag. What I found to be most alarming is the very subtle changes the author has observed over the past 50 years.
HAARETZ
Latter-day luminary
by Micha Odenheimer
The author notes that Rabbi Philip Berg, ( student of Rabbi Yehuda Brandwein, and traces his spiritual lineage to Ashlag) founder of the Kabbala Center, ( numerous branches in Israel, Europe, the United States and South America.) "seems to have crossed another line ...that veers uncomfortably close to classic anti-Semitism. "
"Despite his increasingly bizarre divergence from Ashlag's ideas, there is no doubt that Berg is devoted to one of Ashlag's primary goals: the dissemination of kabbalistic texts and ideas. Furthermore, his coterie of celebrities - Madonna, Demi Moore, Mick Jagger and the latest, Sarah Ferguson the Duchess of York - have raised Ashlag's fame to an unprecedented level. The Kabbala Center, though, is not by any means the only vector through which Ashlagian kabbala is spreading. "
"Groups studying Ashlag now meet regularly in dozens of cities and towns across Israel. In Petah Tikva, a nondescript building in the industrial area comes alive at 3 A.M. as 150 dedicated students arrive for a daily kabbala class led by Rav Michael Laitman, PhD, a Russian immigrant who was a close disciple of Rabbi Baruch Ashlag. The building is the headquarters of the Bnei Baruch group founded by Laitman, and its drab exterior opens into a sparkling new beit midrash (study hall) lined with hundreds of copies of Ashlag's books and a broadcasting studio with state-of-the-art equipment, through which kabbala classes are beamed to an international audience - consisting of many non-Jews - in Hebrew, Russian, English and Italian. While they have no exact gauge, Bnei Baruch says that they have indications that several hundred thousand people worldwide view their internet broadcasts or visit their extensive Web site on kabbala every month. "
The Rabbi concludes his
December 16, 2004 article by writing:
"For Rav Laitman, there is a metaphysical reason for the current upsurge in interest in Ashlag: "The world is reaching the final thickening of the will to receive. Look what is happening in China: Over the last 10 years, 2 billion people have begun to see themselves as consumers, hooked into a seemingly unlimited global economy. There's a huge eruption, all over the world, of the will to receive."
Only an equally deep and widespread revelation of the secrets of the Torah can offset apocalyptic destruction and bring repair. The notion that the very crudeness and selfishness of the modern world is also the vacuum drawing in, legitimating and necessitating the spreading of kabbalistic light, is not unique to Ashlag: Chabad Hasidism, for one, has used this image as well. This idea also seems to have its parallel in Marx's notion that only the cruelty of advanced capitalism itself can create the conditions for world revolution. Ashlag's unique contribution seems to be in his seamless fusion of the spiritual and the economic, the social and the personal, the intellectual study of an abstract system and the most grounded forms of praxis. What remains to be seen is how far his dream of Judaism's esoteric tradition of transforming human consciousness and society can go. "
Link to article on the Bnei Baruch Kabbalah Education & Research Institute Website
http://tinyurl.com/94knw8
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/
kabbalah-worldwide/haaretz
OR at the Haaretz archives where only 1/2 the article is still available
http://tinyurl.com/76ojua
If we KNOW the roots of the New Age Movement are anti-Semetic and we KNOW the hidden dangers for all of us, Jew or Gentile, WHERE is the WISDOM of joining and participating, under any circumstances, in any imaginable forum with Ervin Lazslo? Please see:
"From Chaos to Harmony: The Solution to the Global Crisis According to the Wisdom of Kabbalah" co-authors Rav Laitman and Ervin Lazslo
Information found on Rav Laitman's personal blog
http://tinyurl.com/8hxd2o
http://www.laitman.com/2008/04/ervin-laszlo-and-michael-laitman-from-chaos-to-harmony/
I make the observation, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" -Rudi
For information about the author Rabbi Micha Odenheimer
http://tinyurl.com/7szxud
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/authors.php?auid=3374
Dorothy wrote:
"The World Wisdom Council is dead."
"Rabbi Laitman is not affiliated with any organization other than his."
"There is no conspiracy to get people to follow the Jewish Kabbalah in order to run the world."
"There is a New Age plan to destroy Judaism and Christianity, and you are helping it."
Easily refuted lies.
Rudi:
What's your point?
Sarah Ferguson and Mick Jagger?
Who cares?
And who here is thinking about joining a forum with Ervin Lazslo?
Why should I trust anything you say about Antisemitism "out there" when you won't say a peep about the antisemitism that has been a recurring running theme at this blog for many months?
Either be part of the problem or be part of the solution, Rudi.
12/23/2008
Frences asked about some verses in Prov. 30:4:
Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you know?
The Answer to the Question "What is his name?" is given in the Tanakh, in which we see that only God, the creator of heaven and earth, is in complete control of the forces of nature.
"What is his son's name?"
Exodus 4:22 provides the answer: "Israel is My son, my firstborn"
Confirming this is: "You are the children of the Lord your God" (Deut. 14:1);
and: "It will be said to them: 'You are the children of the living God.'" (Hosea 2:1)
We find also that David and Solomon stand in a filial relationship with God (Psalms 89:27-28, 1 Chronicles 22:10, 28:6). Indeed, this will also be true of the future Messiah. But this is related to their being part of Israel. Israel is the sole bearer of the title of God’s "son" or "firstborn."
Len
Bye Bye Gretchen.
If you don't see it (anti-semitism) here, I guess that's proof that it most certainly does not exist here.
I suppose I should express disappointment that you are too busy and disgusted to follow this blog -- or, gasp, to try to do something to MAKE IT BETTER -- but I'm just too busy myself at the moment to be bothered.
Anon 6:31,
I deleted my comment because I realized I don't want to contribute to the negativity. I do wish there was less of that on here because I have enjoyed reading what others find and then doing my own research as well.
When my son goes down for a nap and I have a little quiet time I like to spend a half an hour or so catching up and part of that has been by reading comments here as well as other blogs.
I have contributed a bit but frankly it's intimidating to comment here because of the angry posts that have been flying back and forth.
I understand that there are a lot of strong feelings regarding ones religion and that is to be expected but I personally think the argument that has been going on should be dealt with in person if the two/three parties are able. It would take up less space here and maybe those involved would get some answers that they want.
12/23/2008
Joyce said, “we say enamored with Torah, it gives the impression that one can be saved by their own obedience to it and I do not believe that's true.”
If not, what did God mean when He said in: "Deut. 30:15 Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil, 16 inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, AND TO OBSERVE HIS COMMANDMENTS, HIS STATUTES, AND HIS ORDINANCES, SO THAT YOU WILL LIVE AND INCREASE, AND THE LORD, YOUR GOD, WILL BLESS YOU in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it. 17 But IF YOUR HEART DEVIATES AND YOU DO NOT LISTEN, AND YOU WILL BE DRAWN ASTRAY, AND YOU WILL PROSTRATE YOURSELF TO OTHER DEITIES AND SERVE THEM, 18 I DECLARE TO YOU THIS DAY, THAT YOU WILL SURELY PERISH, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof. 19 This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall CHOOSE LIFE, so that you and your offspring will live; 20 To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them."
Choose life and be saved, Joyce!
Len
Len ,
I get your point.
It's the exact same point that
the Muslims make: that Christians
are all infidels / idolaters who are
adding to the ONENESS of God,
making Him not one but more
than one. I get it. I hear you and
all the Muslims who say that
Christians are the worst kind of
wrong.
I would agree with you, in spirit,
because indeed God is ONE.
I agree with every verse you quoted
above. It truly is, pardon the
expression, the CRUX of the matter.
It's exactly for that reason Jesus
said in John 17:3 _"And this is
life eternal, that they might
know thee the only true God, and
Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
_and then in verse 21: "That they all
may be ONE; as thou, Father art
in me, and I in thee, that they
also may be ONE in us: that the
world may believe that thou hast
sent me.
22 And the glory that thou gavest
me I have given them; that they may
be ONE, even as we are ONE:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that
they may be made perfect in ONE,
and that the world may know that
thou has sent me , and hast loved
them, as thou has loved me."
I'm saying, there is indeed only
one God. He can have as many
dimensions as he wants.
One dimensional is, physically
speaking, no dimensional.
God has dimensions. God has a
front and a trailing backside that he
once let Moses have a glimpse at.
God is a spirit. God is ONE and God
became a man for a season and
took on a form. Man is made in
the image of God. Man has
dimensions, one two three.
John's Gospel begins with a midrash
on Genesis, chapter ONE:
1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning
with God.
3 All things were made by him;
and without him was not anything
made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was
the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in the darkness
and the darkness comprehended it
not."
Dorothy,
Thanks a lot. I love you too.
Dawn,
Sorry for the delayed response.
Yes, it does look like phase two of the Secret (repackaged).
Finding the link on the Christian website was the interesting part and then not seeing it there again having it so quickly vanish was odd.
My first thought when I read it reminded me that Wall Street article Constance posted in the past re: “THE SHARE INTERNATIONAL (BENJAMIN CREME - 'MAITREYA THE CHRIST') ANNOUNCEMENT THAT HE WILL BE 'EMERGING' AND DOING A MAJOR USA TELEVISION INTERVIEW IN THE USA 'SHORTLY AFTER CHRISTMAS.' The financial collapse seems tailor made for desperate people to fall for these anti-Christ lies. That the Wall Street Journal would lend credence by labeling it a "Christmas Miracle" is astounding.”
We’ll see. Merry Christmas
Shalom,
Barb
Len
If I have not said it before thanks, for being a true jew,and servant of the one and only G-d.
YS
Help me understand this please. I am clueless about Kabbalah. Seriously, all I know is that Madonna follows it and Brittany Spears, raised a Southern Baptist, did. I watched the video by Anthony Kosinec "Science of Kabbalah: How Does Kabbalah Explain the Origins of the Universe?" on http://www.questionyourreality.com/
site (link through "Interactive FAQ" on
http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/learning-center/learning-center).
It seemed, to me anyway, that he is walking through creation story and the fall from Genesis, without specifically saying that is what he is doing. The “vessel” is rejecting the light and "she" reaches a stage of discernment when she wants to do more than receive, wants to create, and finally has “an independent desire to be and do precisely what the Creator had placed there”, and then feels the stature of the Creator. Isn’t this essentially asserting that Eve made the right decision to eat the forbidden fruit and it’s what the Creator wanted her to do? Kosinec says a couple of times that all the Creator desired was to give the light of wisdom. So, is he saying that the Creator did not have any expectations, therefore, ignoring the verses where God commands them not to eat from the tree? So then, either God never said "do not eat" or, if he did, it was ok for them to disobey because that's what the Creator really wanted? (“Did God really say…?”)
Thanks,
~HistoryMaker
Outstanding comments Paul. Great take on your earlier History Channel observations also. -Rudi
"So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him."
Isaiah 59:19
12/23/2008
Dorothy wrote:
You do know there are many people who have tried Messianic Christianity and left it.
Would you believe a former missionary minister: Gavriel Aryeh Sanders? Here is part of his story:
Friday, October 21, 2005
What Convinced Me? - Part 2 - 300 Prophecies?
As a missionary working in Israel in the 80's, I spoke to many Jews about why I believed that Jesus was the Jewish messiah. One of the platform declarations I would make is that there were some 300 prophecies from the Jewish Scriptures which were fulfilled in Jesus' alleged virgin birth, his ministry, his death on the cross/tree, his three day burial*, his resurrection, and his ascension. I would cite many of the connected "fulfillments" between the testaments to show inquisitive Jews how these prophecies were validated.
In truth, I was unwittingly shooting an arrow, drawing a bulls-eye, and then claiming pinpoint accuracy as an archer!
About a year and a half ago, I wrote an article on this subject which was published on Jewsweek.com. You can read that here.
* No matter how you calculate it, there is no way that Jesus spent three days and three nights in the grave as he said he would. All the gospel accounts are fuzzy on this point. This is disturbing because of all the specific events Jesus said he would fulfill, being in the grave for three days and three nights was "the sign" that would be given to validate his claims. Mt. 12:38-40 says: Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The most ancient of Christian traditions tell us that Jesus supposedly died on the afternoon of Good Friday and rose before dawn on Sunday. There is no way one can derive three days and three nights from this account. There are many discussions on this serious problem. I've never read one that adequately resolves this contradiction.
Furthermore, Jesus made the claim about the three day/three night sign to "certain of the scribes and Pharisees". It would make sense by every stretch of reasonability that Jesus would return to this "certain" group following his alleged rising from the dead in order to deliver the sign. However, according to the gospel accounts, he did not. He appeared only to those predisposed to believe in him. So, how is this a sign if only a select few are entitled to see it?
When G-d delivered the Torah to the nation of Israel at Mt. Sinai, the event was witnessed by millions.
Posted by Gavriel Aryeh Sanders at 2:10 PM
www.ministersjourney.blogspot.com/
Len
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMZbs6zu5PU
Nigel Farger confront Sarkozy on the dictatorial aspects of the EU. Farger is with the small UKIP party in England.
This was posted at Atlas Shrugs, a website that looks at what is happening from a Jewish point of view.
Rather than listening to someone's interpretation of what a Jew thinks about politics, check this out.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
Dorothy
12/23/2008
Anon asks: "Would you be able to write a little bit about the following:
1. The Orthodox Jewish community's attitude toward/strategy for reaching Jews who are (1) of Jewish ethnic origin but non-religious
There is no "Orthodox Jewish community" but rather lots of communities. Some ignore the non-religious while others actively reach out to draw them in (kiruv).
The most active kiruv groups are the Chabad Hasidm, an Organization called National Jewish Outreach Program (NJOP), Aish
HaTorah (Fire of Torah) and several antimissionary groups that actively seek to educate thhose Jews drawn into messsianic and Jewish Christian organizations.
All are very effective in their own way, love and embrace all Jews from Orthodox to atheist, and are non-judgemental. Neither proselytizes to non-Jews though the Jewish Covenant is always open to such.
Chabad sends emmisaries (shlikhim)to live worldwide. The recent tragic Mumbai massacre of two such emmisaries publiciced their role in welcoming travelling Jews of all kinds and providing hospitality. Chabad has a particularly controversial branch that believed their former chief rabbi, Menachem Shneerson, isthe Messiah; a belief rejected not only by all other Jews but even by most of Chabad. It reminds os of what happened 2000 years ago.
Chabad is most effective in setting up inexpensive Hebrew schools for children whose parents do not choose to send them to expensive day schoolls.
In the USA, and for drawing in non-religious adults, I happen to prefer NJOP which began as a movement to draw in the secular by means of a very effective beginner's-service operation. They have a strong presence on the Web: www.njop.org.
NJOP sponsors, over the entire US and Canada, Hebrew Reading Crash Courses, and annual "Turn Friday Night into Shabbat" programs that are heavily advertised and have been growing like topsy.
Aish HaTorah has a very educational web presence:
www.aish.com.
You can get on their mailing list for weekly updates. Both Aish and another web group www.Torah.org,have on-line adult ed courses on various subjects.
Antimissionary groups include Jews for Judaism:
www.jewsforjudaism.org/
Outreach Judaism:
www.outreachjudaism.org/
and the Messiah Truth Project:
http://www.messiahtruth.com/
Continued:
12/23/2008
(2) practice Liberal or Reform Judaism. Is there a unified attitude or strategy with regard to these two groups of people?
No; other than the general outreach programs above. In my area of Long Island there are interdenominational adult lecture series to draw people together but these are generlly ineffective.
The Jewish Community Center movement is for all Jews and even non-Jews. I belong to one that has a first-class gym and pool. I am particularly disappointed that many, if not all of these, are open on the Sabbath and some of them have cafes that sell non-kosher food.
3. What percentage of Jews in the United States are Orthodox? Is it correct to say there is general uniformity of belief amongst Orthodox Jews?
There was a 2001 American Jewish Identity Survey that showd 8 % Orthodox with Reform having the largest percentage: 41 %.
www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=29185
There are over a dozen different Orthodox groups ranging from hassidic ones to "modern" Orthodox. All believe in the divinity of Torah and observe Jewish Law (Halakha) but they vary in customs and even in the way they dress. There are also Ashkenazi and Sefardic (European and Middle Eastern) Orthodox synagogues with different customs and varying "nusach" (order of the service) but all -- along with Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist synagogues use identical Toarah scrolls word for word.
I hope this helps.
Len
12/23/2008
Anon wrote: "Len, apologies that should have read:
"(2) practice of either Conservative or Liberal/Reform Judaism (i.e. a non-Orthodox form of Judaism)"
Aside from having identical Torahs and very roughly simailar order of the service there are big differences in approach to Halakha.
Reform services have lots of english content while Conservative and Orthodox are all in Hebrew. Reform and some Conservative use choirs and organs. Reform and many Conservative allow ordination and service of homosexual rabbis and female rabbis. Only Orthodox congregations have separate seating for the sexes which are divided by a barrier wall called a mekhitza that is at least five feet high.
Orthodox conversion rules are strictest, Conservative somewhat less so and Reform and Reconstructionist the most lax. While Judaism traditionally considers a child Jewish if he had a Jewish mother, both Reform and Reconstructionist movements permit either parent to be Jewish.
Susanna 3:30pm
Thank you
Suzette
Len 9:29 P.M.
Are you, and Dorothy trying to proselytize?
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves
Len,
Here is a good article regarding the Messianic Jew that changed his mind.
It is I must admit hard to believe that his letter is true. It would take a whole lot more than that to change someones mind. Also in the same regard if you give answer to every question and it appears true they still will not change.
http://www.new-life.net/3_days.htm
Three days. I suppose you are probably familiar with this though, the author does quote the Talmud. I have heard this from many teachers.
12/24/2008
Dear History Maker,
God made people imperfect as part of His plan. If people did not have free will we would not be people but robots or computers that do exactly as told.
Following is Rabbi Tovia Singer's take on God "causing" evil:
The Hebrew scriptures explicitly declare that the Almighty Himself places both the good and the evil that He created before mankind in order to provide His prime creation with free will. Deuteronomy 30:15 states:
See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.
In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes God's creation plan when he reports that,
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, which is a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.
These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching that it is the perfect spiritual balance of good and evil in the world that confronts every searching soul. This is the Almighty's divine sovereign plan for creation: It is through man's personal decision to turn away from evil and choose good that virtue can be attained.
A much more detailed discussion, that also contrasts the Christian and Jewish views of Satan, is here:
www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html
Len
8/24/2008
Shem,
We are responding to Joyce's proselytizing and that unavoidably requires contradicting her allegations (and those of others). I will be very happy to stop when others do.
I made plain at the outset that I respect Christianity on its own terms. Many of my friends are religious Christians. One is even a Gideon. We share comparative religion but neither of us proselytizes.
Len
SHEM
Only people who have faith in the tenets of Judaism would even consider converting. It's interesting that you would make your comment at this time of the year. People who have converted say that leaving the spirit of community and Christianity that is apparent this time of the year is the hardest to deal with.
Many many things work against someone leaving one community and joining another, particularly leaving a majority community and joining a minority one.
While they may gain a broader understanding about Judaism, I doubt if one person reading here will leave the Christian community to join the Jewish one. It's much too hard a road to travel.
Dorothy
P.S.
Watch the video of Brezinski on what Obama will focus on. Since he was the campaign's foreign policy advisor, that should give some more clues to the future.
http://abcnews.go.com/politics
Joyce
Remember, for a while Dorothy was not heard from, and so many clamored for her return, and hopefully she was well? Next time, please keep your kindness to yourself; her return has been with a vengeance as she, with a sham rage, strikes out at persons with Christian faith. She has often hounded people for hijacking Constance’s blog, but has no qualms in sinking it with her delusions of anti-Semitism.
It appears to me that the scriptures, Old and New, speak for themselves, if one should not listen to them then shake the dust from their doorway and move on.
Do you remember Primegood? A Christian forgotten? Has anyone said: “Where is Primegood?” “Above all have fervent love for the brethren.” Ultimatums toward Rudi by Dorothy? “Give me a break.”
To Dorothy -
FYI, I am a born again Jesus freak having given my life to my Lord and Savior on October 8, 2000.
I believe that we have a freewill in our choices and we can agree to disagree in those choices.
I too see alot of "Jew" bashing and "Christian" bashing going on at this site.
I thought this was a site to share info about New Age activities - but apparently it's a venue for venting between a few obvious persons - oh, just thought I'd vent that to add my two cents.
Peace,
Bobbie
Anonymous 6:16
Hi Paul, is that you?
Yeah I remember Primegood, who left of his own accord. He argued with a couple of people, but Dorothy was not the main antaganist there. It was mainly a "guy" thing about "Would you beat up so-and-so under circumstances X in a church?"
No one on this site even bothered to respond to his "goodbye" post.
Why, instead of sitting on your a**, didn't you lead by example, and lived up to the standards the absence of which you are apparently so belatedly outraged about now in others?
As to your allegation that Dorothy "strikes out at persons with Christian faith" the fact of the matter is that a number of posters (including Dorothy) are fed up with the obnoxious tactics of a small handful of people here (who happen to be Christian).
When has she (or anyone) ever said anything that could be remotely construed as "striking out against the Christian faith?"
If you are going to make these kinds of claims with any credibility, be prepared to back them up.
No Dorothy,
I don't post as anything but
"paul".
sorry, I meant to say no, anonymous.
And that wasn't intentional or
meant as a dig.
REALLY
Paul, even you are capable of playing "nice" when you want to, which illustrates the creator's gift of free will in action.
You should try it (being nice) more often.
I'm not Dorothy, and this is not meant as a dig.
REALLY.
Thursday evening: Jesus has a
preparation sedar with his disciples,
after which he becomes "troubled in
his spirit. Later that evening he is
in the garden of Gethsemane where
he is so troubled, knowing his own
fate for the next few days, he literally
sweats blood. At that point the
Father has "turned his face away"
from the son. That's also known as
HELL. He is arrested before dawn.
By Friday before sundown he is in the
tomb. Friday at sundown begins the
second day. He is in the tomb all day
Saturday. Actually he goes to hell and
liberates thousands from there. By
Saturday at sundown it's been two
full days.
On Sunday morning, early in the
morning, He arises. This is the third day
The Bible never says three full days,
but that "On the third day" he arises
from the dead and declares victory
over death itself. Saturday at sundown
until Sunday at sunrise would amount to
about half a day.
That's two and a half days in hell.
But it's apparently not enough for
some people.
It's enough for me, I'll tell you that.
It's great to know all sorts
of Gematria and number games, but
simple, very simple arithmetic is
still essential.
12/24/2008
paul said...
“ your point [is] the exact same point that the Muslims make: that Christians are all infidels / idolaters who are adding to the ONENESS of God, making Him not one but more than one.”
Wrong! You do not get my point.
I say that this is true for Jews but not necessarily for gentiles. While some Jews, notably Maimonides, considered Christianity to be idolatry this is not the normative Jewish view.
Rabbi David Berger (and his co-author, Michael Wyschograd) is more specific in the short book, "Jews and Jewish Christianity." R' Berger, a contemporary authority on idolatry, is probably the leading critic of the Lubavitcher Hassidic semi-deification of their Rebbe as messiah.
"At first glance this doctrine [of homousios, the son of one essence with the Father] sounds like abandonment of monotheism... The church, however, has traditionally rejected this interpretation and insisted that, in spite of the threefold nature of God, each person of which is the full equal of the others, there is also a oneness to God that makes the Christian triune God continuous with the one God of the [Tanakh].
"While the Christian insistence of God's Oneness ... is a source of satisfaction to Jews..., it must also be said that Judaism finds a "three that are one" doctrine virtually impossible to understand, especially in the light of the teaching that only one of these persons becomes a man. It is not our intention to impose a simplistic requirement for ‘rationality’ on religious teachings. Nevertheless such teachings must be intelligible if they are to be believed, and it is precisely this that is questionable in the teaching of the trinity. ---
"While the Nicene definition almost certainly goes much beyond the NT interpretation of Jesus' status there are some features of the NT that lay the groundwork... [Some passages] state Jesus' divinity more clearly, though [not through Jesus' words]..One such is Col. 2:9 that asserts, "it is in Christ that the complete being of the Godhead dwells embodied." It should be noted that the Pauline authorship of Colossians has been questioned specifically because of its otherwise un-Pauline Christology.
"It is difficult to determine whether the claim that Jesus was God is fully a post-NT development or whether it has a firm foundation in the NT itself. ... [M]ost Jewish and some Christian scholars believe that the teaching of Jesus' divinity came into Christianity from Gentile sources and was unknown to the original community of Jesus' followers... From the Jewish viewpoint this belief [in Jesus' divinity] is idolatrous... It is therefore important to know that a Jew who believes that Jesus [is] God in the sense asserted by the Nicene creed commits idolatry as defined by Jewish law.
"There is only one other point to be made. Does a Gentile who believes in Jesus' divinity in accordance with the Nicene Creed commit idolatry? ... [While] Gentiles are not obligated to obey all the commandments ... one of the commandments that is binding is the prohibition against idolatry...
"The answer, according to the dominant Jewish point of view, is that he is not committing idolatry.
"In Jewish literature the term ... for the Trinitarian concept ... was shittuf (partnership). The accepted Jewish view is that belief in shittuf does not constitute idolatry for Gentiles but does so for Jews. The reason for this is that the definition of what constitutes idolatry is different for Jews and Gentiles. Belief in shittuf, the belief that God shares his being in equal partnership with Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is not idolatry by the standard of idolatry demanded of Gentiles. But the very same belief held by a Jew constitutes idolatry by the standard applicable to Jews. It is for this reason that Judaism does not condemn Christian Trinitarianism as idolatry unless those holding the belief are Jews bound by the Sinai covenant."
Len directed us to the following bible verses perhaps in the hopes of confusing people, much as the Gnostics do. He said:
" In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes God's creation plan when he reports that,
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things. "
**********************************
Darkness is the absence of light. Without light, darkness does not reveal itself as a separate entity. It is only with the creation of the light that darkness is revealed for what it is-darkness, or an absence of light. Hence, when God created light, darkness was also created as a biproduct of the creation of light.
The same concept applies to the second sentence. When the Divine Peacemaker-Jesus-Yeshua came to earth to redeem man from his sinfulness, evil was disrupted. The peace and love of The Peacebringer reveals evil for what it is-evil- through the contrast.
I have been away for almost a week, and have been unable to follow the links and comments here. Unfortunately, after an abbreviated 'drive-by' visit this morning it is apparent that the divisiveness is more apparent than ever. After glancing through a handful of comments I get the gist of the conversation.
I do not wish to get into the fray again other than to affirm what I have said before here and on my own blog. Joyce and Rudi are absolutely correct in stating that mysticism is the glue that is being used by the Ervin Laslos of the world to deceive many. The Kabbalah is part of that mysticism. It is the tree of knowledge that Lucifer and his fallen angels used, (the Nephalim and demons that arose from the Nephalims mingling with humanity), in order to create the ancient mystery cults. From these cults we now have the present day mysticsm that is called the NEW AGE and which is deceiving many and destroying lives and souls. We study the New Age here on this blog to help prevent that, and to enlighten others.
Refuting the fact that Kabbalism is mysticism and therefore dangerous is very troubleing indeed, and I cannot fathom why some here are doing that.
I too miss Primegood and other fine people who have been derided here for having strong viewpoints that disagree with others here.
The common denominator seems to always comes back to accusations of anti-semetism, and that is simply unfair and untrue. I feel strongly that if we are going to point fingers at Rick Warren, and the Kansas City Prophets and others who engage in certain practices that expose their connections to the New Age, then it is counter productive to this blog's purpose to not look at the prominent rabbis who engage in Kabbalism, as this is most certainly occultic knowledge as well.
Who cares? I care.
Have a merry whatever you all practice, folks.
Peace.
'The Son of Man Will Be Three Days and Three Nights in the Heart of the Earth'
Jesus Christ plainly said He would be entombed for three days and three nights. Can this be reconciled with a "Good Friday" crucifixion and burial and an "Easter Sunday" resurrection, which allows for barely a day and a half in the tomb? Or do the Gospels spell out a surprising, simpler solution that fits perfectly with what Jesus foretold?
by Scott Ashley
In Matthew 12:38, some of the scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign to prove He was the Messiah. "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you," they told Him (New International Version).
But Jesus responded that the only sign He would give was that of the prophet Jonah: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (verse 40).
Traditional view doesn't fit
But how can we fit "three days and three nights" between a Friday afternoon crucifixion and entombment just before sundown and a Sunday morning resurrection at sunrise? This traditional view allows for Jesus to have been in the tomb for only a day and a half.
Some believe that Christ's statement that He would be "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" does not require a literal span of 72 hours. They reason that any part of a day can be reckoned as a whole day.
Thus, since Jesus died in the afternoon and was entombed just before sunset, they think the closing few minutes of that Friday constituted the first day, Friday night was the first night, Saturday was the second day, Saturday night was the second night, and a few minutes at dawn on Sunday morning made up the third day.
But where, then, is the third night? Even if a few minutes of daylight late on Friday and another few on Sunday morning constitute "days," this interpretation fails to explain how only two nights—Friday night and Saturday night—can somehow be the three nights of which Jesus spoke.
In fact, Scripture is plain that Jesus had already risen before Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early Sunday morning, arriving "while it was still dark" (John 20:1-2). So in reality, no parts of Sunday could be counted as a day, as Jesus was already resurrected well before the break of dawn.
Jonah 1:17, to which Jesus referred, states specifically that "Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." We have no biblical basis for thinking that Jesus meant only two nights and one day, plus part of another day. If Jesus were in the tomb only from late Friday afternoon to early Sunday morning, then the sign He gave that He was the prophesied Messiah was not fulfilled.
So which is it? Is something wrong with Christ's words, or is something wrong with the traditional view of when and how long He was in the tomb?
Let's carefully examine the details from the Gospels. When we do, we uncover the real story of how Jesus' words were fulfilled precisely.
Two Sabbaths mentioned
Notice the sequence of events outlined in Luke 23. Jesus' moment of death, as well as His hasty burial because of the oncoming Sabbath that began at sundown, is narrated in verses 46-53. Verse 54 then states, "That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near."
In Jewish society of that time, heavy cooking and housecleaning were done on the day before a Sabbath in preparation for it. Thus the day before the Sabbath came to be called "the preparation day" or simply "the preparation." The biblical Sabbath falls on Saturday, the seventh day of the week. According to Bible reckoning, days begin at sunset (Leviticus 23:32; compare Genesis 1:5, 8, 13), so all weekly Sabbaths start Friday evening at sundown.
Based on these facts, many people have assumed that it is the weekly Sabbath mentioned here, and that Jesus was therefore crucified on a Friday. But two types of "Sabbaths" are mentioned in the Scriptures—the regular weekly Sabbath day, which fell on the seventh day of the week, and seven annual Holy Days (listed in Leviticus 23), Sabbaths that could—and usually did—fall on days of the week other than the regular weekly Sabbath day.
Was the day after Jesus was crucified a weekly Sabbath, or one of these annual Holy Days?
John 19:31 clearly states that this approaching Sabbath "was a high day." This term does not refer to the weekly Sabbath (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset), but in this context to the first day of Unleavened Bread, one of God's annual Holy Days (Exodus 12:16-17; Leviticus 23:6-7). A number of Bible commentaries, encyclopedias and dictionaries will confirm that John is not referring to the weekly Sabbath here, but rather to one of the annual Sabbaths.
According to the biblical calendar, in that year this high-day Sabbath fell on a Thursday (meaning it began on Wednesday night at sunset). We can confirm this by looking at the details in the Gospel accounts—which show us that two separate Sabbath days are mentioned.
Luke 23:55-56 tells us that the women, after seeing Christ's body being laid in the tomb just before sundown, "returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils" for the final preparation of the body.
They would not have done such work on a Sabbath day, weekly or annual, since it would have been considered a Sabbath violation. This is verified by Mark's account, which states: "Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices [which they could not have purchased on a Sabbath day], that they might come and anoint Him" (Mark 16:1).
The women had to wait until this Sabbath was over before they could buy and prepare the spices to be used for anointing Jesus' body. Then, Luke 23:56 tells us that, after purchasing and preparing the spices and oils on Friday, "they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment"—which means they had to have acquired the spices before that Sabbath on which they rested. This second Sabbath mentioned in the Gospel accounts is the regular weekly Sabbath, observed from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
By comparing details in both Gospels —where Mark tells us the women bought spices after the Sabbath and Luke relates that they prepared the spices before resting on the Sabbath—we can clearly see that two different Sabbaths are being discussed here.
The first, as John 19:31 tells us, was a "high day"—the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread—which, in A.D. 31, fell on a Thursday. The second was the weekly seventh-day Sabbath. (To see these events spelled out day by day, see the chart.)
Sign of the Messiah
After the women rested on the regular weekly Sabbath, they went to Jesus' tomb early on the first day of the week (Sunday), "while it was still dark" (John 20:1), and found that He had already been resurrected (Matthew 28:1-6; Mark 16:2-6; Luke 24:1-3). Jesus was not resurrected at sunrise on Sunday morning. When Mary Magdalene arrived "while it was still dark" she found the stone rolled away and the tomb already empty!
When we consider the details in all four Gospel accounts, the picture is clear. Jesus was crucified and entombed late on Wednesday afternoon, just before a Sabbath began at sunset. However, that was a high-day Sabbath, lasting from Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset that week, rather than the regular weekly Sabbath that lasted from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
Since Jesus was entombed in the late afternoon just before sundown, according to His own words He would have been resurrected at around the same time three days and nights later. He remained in the tomb from Wednesday at sunset until Saturday at sunset, when He rose from the dead. While no one witnessed His resurrection (which took place inside a sealed tomb), to fit His words and the biblical evidence it had to have happened three days and three nights later, near sunset on Saturday.
This time line perfectly accommodates three full nights (Wednesday night, Thursday night and Friday night) and three full daylight periods (Thursday, Friday and Saturday). This is the only time that fits Jesus' own prophecy of how long He would be in the tomb. And, as we have seen, it fits perfectly with all the details recorded in the Gospels.
We can be assured that the entombment period Jesus gave as proof He was the Messiah was exactly the duration He foretold. Because most people do not understand the biblical Holy Days Jesus Christ and His followers kept, they fail to understand the chronological details so accurately preserved for us in the Gospels.
To Dorothy,
I understand how difficult a decision to change faith can be. No one wants to loose or strain their relationships with loved ones. However:
Matt 19:29 and everyone that hath forsaken houses or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my names sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life
Its a matter of priority
Shem,
Thank-you for this information.
Were you going to leave a link to sign of the Messiah?
Thanks again- this makes sense. What about Catholism practices of Holy Thursday, Last supper , and on Wednesday, and Good Friday?
Currious if Susanna could shed light there?
ALL of you have made some very intelligent and valid points.
The common denominator and the reason for all of the animosity here on this blog is a lack of respect and empathy for each other's religious convictions.
We can each state our personal beliefs and debate each other without tearig each other apart.
If we ALL would follow Jesus's command to "love thy neighbor as thyself" - there would be no animosity.
Judgement must be left to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ and not to any one of us.
Just remember: there may be hundreds of new people reading this blog (who are not posting) who are judging all of us - by the words that we post.
Praying for peace on this blog and more love in our hearts on this Christmas Eve.
www.ucgstp.org
Len:
Thank you for the very interesting discussion of the "Jewish view" of Christians, trinitarianism, and idolatry.
Shem 1777
The explanation on the sign of Jonah was excellent. I copied and pasted it for future reference. Just wondering was that your personal study?
Bobbie
The tone of your previous blog – peace just didn’t fit your signature line there properly. Please don’t take peace lightly.
Len
Your 11:15, 11:31, 11:45 were very enlightening thanks, but I found the 10:46 one quite beneficial for me.
You helped me articulate better the strain that’s between what shittuf (partnership) and how it relates to a Jew is perceived. I communicated that on the other thread in my own words – your explanation will be much more efficient. Again thank you.
YG
I loved how you explained Isaiah 45:7 that has been a glitch Scripture for me for a long time. Thank you.
The synopsis you wrote on the whole Kabbalah thing was extremely helpful in understanding the overall message that is trying to be conveyed throughout the masses of posts.
You asked “Refuting the fact that Kabbalism is mysticism and therefore dangerous is very troubleing indeed, and I cannot fathom why some here are doing that.” IMO - A lot (not all) of the posts that are reporting information on Kabbalism appear to have undercurrents beyond their obvious post (you know that) plus the very SUBJECT of mysticism itself is a spiritual warfare matter and brings with it the atmosphere. Thus gird your loins soldier.
Shalom,
Barb
SHEM
I was trying to put your mind at ease that Christianity wouldn't lose a follower based on what Len is posting. However if you think that Christians should consider converting to Judaism based on the quote you gave, you are much more tolerant than your other posts would indicate.
Dorothy
I'm with you anony 12:46!!!
Thanks for the link Shem.
Barb
Shalom,
No, i posted it from a web site i found in researching the suject, to respond to a post by Len. There were several web sites on the subject. This one seemed simple, and logical.
Shem,
It is a good article regarding three days. Did you read this one? I believe the article by Len is either not true or the guy never was set in his faith. This arguement is an old one and easily reconsilable.
http://www.new-life.net/3_days.htm
Bill
12/24/2008
Shem makes a scholarly and valiant attempt to reconcile Jesus' death and resurrection with the Jonah prophecy. But in doing so he flags other inconsistencies between the gospels on the Crucifixion calendar wehich he ignores.
Following iis a short synopsis of a detailed calendar analysis that takes the last supper into account. The commplete comprehensive anaalysis is here:
www.outreachjudaism.org/
resurrection.html
The Crucifixion Date:
On Which Day Was Jesus Crucified?
When examining the four crucifixion accounts as they are presented in the New Testament, it is difficult to point to a single event upon which all four Gospel writers agree. Even the date of the crucifixion is an issue of contention among the four Gospels.
A perfunctory examination of New Testament texts reveals that the Books of Matthew,1 Mark,2 and Luke3 all agree that the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder. Bearing in mind that Jesus was crucified on the very next day following the Last Supper, that would mean that according to all three synoptic4 Gospels, Jesus was crucified on the first day of Passover, or the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan (for example, if tonight were a Passover Seder, then tomorrow would be the first day of Passover5).
The author of the Book of John, however, completely contradicts the first three Gospels, and maintains that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover, or the 14th day of Nissan. The Book of John reads, "Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover . . . . Then he handed him over to them to be crucified." (19:14-16)
The implications of this stunning contradiction cannot be overstated because both claims cannot be true. In essence, this is not the sort of inconsistency that can be explained away by missionaries insisting that the reason for the varying Gospel accounts is due to different perspectives of the Gospel writers. Jesus was crucified either of the eve of Passover, which is the 14th day of Nissan, as John contends, or on the first day of Passover, which is the 15th day of Nissan, as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke maintain. Jesus could not have been crucified on both days.
Len, thanks for your response. Yes, I'm familiar with that verse from Deut. (There is a Christian song based on it, by John Waller.) I agree about God giving us free will so that we can love Him. The thing is, He gave Adam and Eve free will *before* they chose to disobey Him. He set the tree there so that they had a choice whether or not to obey His command and love Him as their Lord. They disobeyed. That's the problem I have with the way the Kabbalah video explains creation and the fall of man. He says the only desire of God was to give them the light. That's not true. God expects us to acknowledge that He is Lord, and that we are not. We are to turn to Him to meet our needs. We are responsible for how we respond to His commands. Given that one of God's attributes is omniscience, then He would have known what Eve was going to do. Thankfully, He-- being holy, loving, and merciful-- set in place a way for propitiation...*always* requiring us to make Him the Lord of our lives. But Eve was still responsible for making that choice, and it was still a wrong and sinful one.
Sincerely,
~HistoryMaker
Why does crucifixion have to be the beginning of the three day count ?
Jesus became "troubled in his spirit" during the last
supper.
The definition of hell is when God turns his face away from someone. Just like Jonah.
Have you ever had God turn his face away from you? I have. I didn't have to have nails driven in my hands for it to be official. I didn't have to have a doctor declare me dead. I was WORSE than dead when God turned his face away from me. I was in hell when God turned his face away from me.
Stop wasting time on splitting the hairs of what three days might have been.
You're not changing anything. Do you think that
two thousand years of Christian scholarship simply didn't notice that there was something wrong with the timeline ? There's nothing wrong with the timeline or the narrative. There's also NO discrepancy between the Gospels. None. Only on
History Channel do they imply that there is. The other night they said: One Gospel says Jesus and his parents went to be counted in a census, BUT this other Gospel doesn't mention it... That is supposed to be a contradiction ?
By that logic all four Gospels should say the exact same things, in the same sequence, using the same words.
There are four different accounts of the life of the Saviour, written by four different men. One of them is a Gentile doctor from Greece. One is a follower of
Jesus who was just a boy. The other two were Apostles. They all had different viewpoints and they all harmonize perfectly.
Do you think that the Apostles weren't able to add one plus one plus one ?
Of all the lame excuses for not believing the Gospels this non-debate has to take the cake.
Paul,
A very good post and thanks!
Constance
To anonymous 12:46 -- I concur and thanks for your thoughtful comments!
Constance
It is “vitally” important that the New Testament stand the test of Truth and accuracy.
“In Matthew 12:38 Jesus is asked for a sign that He’s the promised Messiah. The religious officials had just accused Him of using the power of Satan to perform His miracles, and so He described the only sign they would see.
“Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,” He said, “So will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (12:40).”
So not to take up blog space I will encourage whoever is interested to check
this site http://demo.gracethrufaith.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/solving-the-three-day-three-night-mystery.pdf
It seemed good to me in explaining the "sign of Jonah’s" controversy.
I will venture to say that diaspora plays a key role with this issue.
Shalom,
Barb
12/24/200/
Paul wrote: “One Gospel says Jesus and his parents went to be counted in a census, BUT this other Gospel doesn't mention it... That is supposed to be a contradiction ? By that logic all four Gospels should say the exact same things, in the same sequence, using the same words.
You missed the point and your objection is discussed in detail in the link I provided:
www.outreachjudaism.org/
resurrection.html
It is not a simple case, like your example, of leaving out or including a fact. It is a case of the gospels contradicting each other in a material way, as a lawyer would say. As the link says:
“In essence, this is not the sort of inconsistency that can be explained away by --- insisting that the reason for the varying Gospel accounts is due to different perspectives of the Gospel writers. Jesus was crucified either of the eve of Passover, which is the 14th day of Nissan, as John contends, or on the first day of Passover, which is the 15th day of Nissan, as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke maintain. Jesus could not have been crucified on both days.”
The date critically affects the “three-day, three—night” issue which Shem obfuscated by calling into question whether the Sabbath at issue was either the first day of Passover or the seventh-day Sabbath. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke say Jesus was crucified on the Passover “sabbath”. John says Jesus was crucified a day earlier; the day of “preparation” for the Seder; also the last supper. The only way three days and three nights could result is if BOTH types of Sabbaths were included: dying before the first and being resurrected the day after the second. But none of the gospels state this and it was just a forced assumption of Shem’s to make the math add up.
It is amazing that neither Paul or Shem mentioned the conflicting timelines of the synoptic gospels and John’s with respect to the date of death and burial; the synoptics being on the Passover Sabbath and John’s being on the day of preparation.
Len
I just happened to take a look here at some of the comments, and I want to say that there are a lot of statements here that are put forward as fact. We can find theologians. I'm speaking specifically about calling into question Pauline authorship of Colossians or calling into question, what would appear to be "descrepencies" in the gospel accounts of the the death burial and resurrection of Yeshua, the Passover Lamb, the sign of Jonah etc.
There are all kinds of theologians out there who can give a reason to not believe anything, including the Torah.. There are people that have said Torah was written in Babylon. Moses didn't write it. There are people that have said that Torah is exactly like parallel myths of its time.
The reason I'm bringing this up is because there are some on the blog trying to tear apart the account of Yeshua's death and resurrection. We can always find support to contradict this, just as we can find support to contradict the fact that the stories of Torah are true..
If you search, you will find explanations for all of the issues that have been addressed here, including the meal Yeshua ate with His disciples, including the three day, three night sign of Jonah.
I personally think it is a waste of people's time to engage with Len on these subjects, because those of us who believe have actually experienced His power and goodness in our lives.
When I accepted Yeshua, I didn't know too much theology to be very honest, but I knew I had an encounter with the Living God. It was later on that I began studying the Torah, Prophets and Writings and Apostolic texts which confirmed the faith I already had. There are many, what we call "Bible difficulties" including in Tanakh. I'm not going to bring them all up here but whole books have been written on this subject. I'm not suggesting that you don't go out and study and learn either...but faith is the hope of things unseen, otherwise it wouldn't take faith.
How do we know it was God who created the universe? How do we know that Israel really crossed the Red Sea on dry land. There is no archeological proof. Here's a quote about this:
"The majority of archaeologists today do not have enough faith in the Bible as the accurate word of God. The majority of archaeologists do not even believe in the exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt, according to Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review magazine. They are skeptical of the biblical account, perhaps because of a lack of archaeological evidence in the Sinai Peninsula and a lack of faith. We cannot look to these men to tell us where or if the exodus took place."
I happen to believe he did...so that's not the point of what I'm saying. The point is that believing requires faith.
Those of us who have faith in Yeshua and have walked with Him for a number of years, know this reality.
There are any number of explanations for the timing of the meal with Yeshua and His disciples and the timing of His death. Recently a rabbi I met in Jerusalem told me that he believed Yeshua was crucified on a "mo'ed".. I happen to agree with him..He was part of a Jerualem yeshiva...He know the Apostolic texts well.. to my amazement. He also said Yeshua was coming back and people would "look up HIm whom they pierced" when He comes to Mt. of Olives.. That was coming from someone trained as a rabbi...
The reason I think it's a waste of time to engage with Len is because he is not coming with his heart open genuinely searching. He knows the explanations as well as I do. He's been on all the antimissionary websites and knows the Jewish believers in Yeshua, who are scholars and have explanations for all of this.
He's been sent to the blog to speak against Yeshua, so I really don't think it's worth "dialoging"..My humble opinion. Len is not a professional "interfaith dialoguer" but he's an "anti-missionary type who was sent here to combat against a Jew talking about her Messiah, and now since I haven't engaged with him and others are he's being given room on the blog to try to undermine the name of Yeshua. I have just began to pray for him in the name of Yeshua and I suggest you all do the same. It's the one thing he doesn't want us to do and the very thing that he so desperately needs and doesn't know it.
There are many resources where you can find answers to these questions...The English translations of our Bibles do not always give adequate information, to do this. That's why there are lexicons, encyclopedias, dictionaries and commentaries..are important. It's great to read the Bible, but our english translations are imperfect.
My point is there are theologians out there to support any point of view you want to take, but if someone is not coming with a sincere heart wanting to find Yeshua they will try to explain the clear testimony by 500 witnesses, not to mentions His own disciples most who were martyred for their faith in Him.
Archeologists are hard-pressed to find proof of many of the events in the Torah? Do we not believe Torah because of that ? No. The Holy Spirit leads us in all truth..this is why we believe the Scriptures.
My counsel to all the believers in Yeshua on the blog would be, don't waste your time responding to Len, because all he wants to try to do is cast doubt on the death and resurrection of Yeshua and you will be giving ground to the evil one by opening this door. I wouldn't give him space to do that here.
If Len wants to tear apart the Bible, he should start at Genesis and not in Matthew.
Another thing to remember is that Jews aren't in agreement on a lot of things in Torah either it's not just Christian or Messianic theologians who disagree.
All that to say, I have responded to Len in the past but find it to be a big waste of time because no matter what explanation you will give he will try to find a way to tear it down. I suspect if Yeshua was standing in front of him, he might find an explanation for that too.
There are answers to all of the objections that Len brought up, but even if you gave them he would twist and contradict, so that is why I am saying, don't waste your time...just pray.
b'Shem Yeshua,
Joyce
JOYCE
You were the one who tried to convince me and others that yours was a logical presentation for acceptance of Christianity with all manner of quotations. Unfortunately for your presentation it's not a matter of logic, it's a matter of faith. Your anti Judaism tirade is a matter of emotions rather than logic. Your last post sounds as if it came from the fairy tale of Rumplestilskin when he was called by his real name.
Christianity is a good religion in that it teaches individuals what is owed to God and what are one's responsibilities to one's fellow man. Some have tried to present it as God died for our sins...wham bam we've no worries now. The Christianity I learned about wasn't a matter of pride in being a Christian. It was a respect for what God was and what was necessary for an individual to do to live a moral life. It had nothing to do with God taking human shape in order to reinforce these idea. I can understand why some feel it necessary to believe in God taking the shape of man before accepting the ideas. It certainly is easier to present a human model for the ideas, so if God brought forth Christianity as a way to teach humans these moral lessons, it makes sense to me. It appears to have worked as most Christians have made society a better place to live for everyone whose lives they've touched.
It's not that Judaism needed to be replaced. It's that the moral laws needed to find a presentation that was easier for humans to accept. I know this idea won't find acceptance in either the Jewish or Christian communities, but it's one that I believe. As time goes on I've found that moral Christians and Jews have more in common with each other than would appear. Pro-life. Anti-eutanasia, anti-adultery, anti-homosexuality, a deeper understanding of what God appears to be, charitable responsibilities, etc. It just becomes a matter of how to pass down these ways of acting and not allowing dilution of them.
Dorothy
Dorothy,
I (gulp) agree with you.
And particularly your last paragraph.
The Torah didn't have a "face". It was
abstract. A pure spirit doesn't have a
face or even a body.
Jesus was God incarnate.
The Torah "became flesh and dwelt
among us."
Jesus is the "author and finisher of
the faith"
When Jesus ( Yeshua ) arose from the dead
the disciples were afraid and some
said they had seen a ghost, but Jesus
said to them "touch me and see, a
spirit has no body as you see I have"
The thing is: Jesus is the first of a new
kind of creature. The body he had after the
resurrection was the New Adam. And we
Christians believe we will be given that
same kind of body one day.
Everybody knows that the Pharasees
were extremely righteous as pertained
the Torah. They followed the
commandments to the letter, as best
they possibly could. I know that I could
never follow the Law that closely. I'm just
too flawed and weak in the flesh. In fact,
even those Pharasees couldn't follow it
to perfection.
But Jesus told us all: "Unless your right-
eousness EXCEEDS that of the Pharasees,
you will in no way enter into heaven"
Where does that leave someone like me?
It would be hopeless for me.
But the Bible says that he will impart
HIS righteousness to us. Indeed we
will possess and embody HIS own
righteousness. It's the only hope.
He is the Firstfruits of a new creation.
The seven truly Holy Days were:
1) Passover
2) Unleavened Bread
3) Firstfruits
4) Pentacost
5) Trumpets
6) Atonement
7) Tabernacles
The Passover lamb was slaughtered
the day before the Passover happened.
The Israelites then put the blood on the
doorposts so that the Passover could
happen. The Last Supper was a
preparation Seder, on Thursday evening.
Jesu is the eternal Lamb of God.
The Unleavened Bread was hidden in the
folds of their clothes as they walked out of
bondage /Egypt, just as Jesus was hidden
in the earth for a time. He is the eternal
Bread of Life.
The Firstfruits of the crops were found
early in the springtime and the best
of them were consecrated and dedicated
to God. Jesus is the Firstfruits of the
new creation.He is the Resurrection
and the Life.
And Jesus was with the disciples for five
weeks before he left the earth. Hence
the word Pentacost.
These four Holydays took place in
the springtime, and have all found
their fulfillment in Jesus.
The remaining three Holydays are
very soon to be completed, also in
Yeshua the King of Kings.
I'm not trying to convert you Dorothy.
I'm just stating a little bit of the
midrash of the New Testament.
I really can't help myself
Joyce
Some Christians are more interested in understanding Judaism than others, for reasons of intellectual curiousity, etc., and this is understandable. There are many activities that are not a good use of time and for some, this type of disucussion is low on the agenda.
If anyone feels their faith in Jesus is threatened or otherwise jeapordized by engaging in religious discussion with as learned and honorable a Jew as Len, this points to a serious deficiency in that person's faith.
Your implications about Len's motives are woefully at odds with the evidence, all of which can be found on the archives in this discussion board.
I agree with Dorothy here, your posts indicate that you appear to be controlled entirely by your emotions. This character flaw (which is correctable, of course, and I will pray that such correction, through God's grace working in cooperation with your free will, occurs), which masquerades as warmth, hurts not only you, but is capable of leading others of good will astray.
Emotional experience in itself, separated from reason, is not a good foundation for religious faith.
I should sign my name Not a Scholar. But I have heard (from Missler and others) that Jesus was crucified on one of the "other" sabbaths. The 7th day Sabbath is not the only one Jews celebrate. There are others which come midweek, or even on the first day.
Concerning Firstfruits, which came on the First day of the week after Jesus' death, this is said to be not only His resurrection day but the day when many Old Testament saints were resurrected in Jerusalem. They spent the next weeks appearing to many in Jerusalem and testifying of the Lord. Some Christians think the resurrection of all remaining saints will occur on First Fruits some year. Some are pointing to 2009 as the year, because of several confluences of Jewish holy days at that time, including the Blessing of the Sun, which occurs every 28 years. This is not universally accepted, of course. But some rabbis do look to the coming of their messiah in 2009. To read about the 2009 Firstfruits concept, you could look at the website of Sal Smario. I do not know myself if this concept is true, but I am impressed with the people on the associated blog, called Daniel's Glasses.
Mariel
Anomymous poster,
My comments are based on experience spending time answering Len and recognizing that what he has done is memorize antimissionary websites.. which don't take into account that the information on those websites at times is wrong.
There are sites that have packaged all the responses to the antimissionary websites, but I have not intention of going there to give packaged responses back.
What I said is based on Len's own words pointing us to those websites and then his responses which resemble the websites he sent us to.
I have learned a lot about Judaism, but not from Len. There are lots of resources out there and I have friends who were raised in Judaism, some who still practice and some who are Messianic...
Open your eyes, if you are a believer in Yeshua and if you're not that might explain your comment too.
Joyce
Joyce
I am a devout Christian but I disagree with everything you have written in your 10:23 post.
Your tactic of questioning the faith of anyone who happens to disagree with you (whether Christian or Jew) is truly despicable. It's immoral, and I have faith in God's justice enough to know that unless you repent, you will at some point be held accountable for it before the throne of Jesus Christ himself. It is, I am afraid, a tactic taken from the playbook of cult leaders. I point this out not for your benefit, but for the readers of this blog as a warning flag about your tactics.
I do not believe you have any friends that are practicing Jews. The claim has no credibility.
So Anonymous, perhaps there is a position for you with the AoC? They are also interested in correcting our "character flaws", as well. After all the foundation of our faith is built upon emotionalism. Once our reeducation is complete, it will usher in all the fruits that a more "rational", correct, reasonable, belief system brings to the New Age of enlightenment. Im at least thankful your not judging the thoughts, or intents of anyones heart here.
Shem
You seem to have fallen for the charismatic heresy. A little Todd Bentley anyone?
Pentacost
sorry I meant to say He was with
the disciples seven weeks or
fifty days, minus one.
Dear Anonymous,
You are wrong. I do have many friends that are practicing Jews.. but I don't need to convince you of that because God knows that too.. God actually knows exactly what is in my heart. I do have a relationship with Him where we communicate and He does convict me where necessary as I presume He does with you.. if you are born-again.
Len has blasphemed the name of Yeshua on this blog. You should be addressing him, not me. .although even in this case I know that God can deal with Len better than I can. I was simply warning the true believers in the name of Yeshua, that Len is out to try to destroy His name and using know tactics from the sites that he frequents. I think your priorities are backwards, but I'll let God deal with you..It's not my place.
I think God will understand perfectly my heart and motives even if you don't. I will repeat what I said. . The kind of dialogue that Len is engaging in is attempt to destroy the name of Yeshua and we are to be as gentle as doves and as wise as serpants...so anyone who opens a door for conversation with Len about the Gospels or the Torah or whatever is perpetuating his blasphemy on the blog and is not helping Len either. We are only helping him to dig a pit for himself if you really stop and think about it. I know he won't see it that way, but I do..
Joyce
p.s. as I was composing my response to you the phone rang and it was a Jewish friend of mine, who is a survivor of the Shoah.. I guess God was getting His message across..
Joyce,
Prove that you have practising Jewish friends. Saying you got a phone call from one is not proof.
Ask one of them to come to this blog, stating what branch of Judaism they practice, and introduce themselves to the readers here.
I would find that very educational in my search to understand you.
Anonymous,
Why don't you write your name...and I might think about doing that?
Joyce
Joyce,
My name is Ron W. Call me RW if you want.
Anonymous,
Tod Bentley????? Please explain?
Thats really going out on a limb! Shirley Mclian influence?
Would that be RWL?
Anonymous 11:41,
No it's RW. I prefer not to use middle initials here but if you insist you can use R_W.
BTW I have to go for the day but I'll be back soon I support. Looking forward to meeting your Jewish friends in the future Joyce it will certainly be interesting.
Ron
Dear Ron/RW,
Thank you for addressing me by name. I do appreciate having at least a first name when someone is attempting to correct me. I would recommend that read the gospel accounts of Yeshua and His disciple's dealings with people who were against them and you might find some Biblical precedent for what I said.
I don't dislike Len. I don't think others are doing themselves or him a favor to encourage him to continue to do that here, but as Constance always says the freedom of speech is our Constitutional right and there is no censorship on this blog, so no great fear of me forming a cult here. I don't think this crowd would fall for it...most of them are pretty savvy...
As for allowing Len to continue in this fashion, it creates a hardening of the heart as he digs his heels in on his position...I am praying that his heart softens and when we defend a position it tends to be the reverse.. I know this might shock you but I am really praying for Dorothy and Len..
My comment was to pray for Len and Dorothy and anyone else on the blog who has not been born again because as Yeshua said, only when we are born again can we inherit the Kingdom of God. The new birth is not a matter of intellect.. It's a matter of Spirit..Our ability to have clever arguments can actually disqualify us from getting into the kingdom.
Blessings,
Joyce
HI Ron,
That was awfully nice of you to give your name, but I don't think it would be wise of me to send my Jewish friends to this blog. If your a smart fella, you should be able to figure that out..
Joyce
Hey Joyce,
Gotcha ;-)
Joyce
Thank you Anonymous 10:55 A.M.,
Here is a good teaching on Tod Bentley et al.
UnsealedProphecy.net, september 23 post
12/25/2008
Joyce wrote: “He's been sent to the blog to speak against Yeshua, so I really don't think it's worth "dialoging"..My humble opinion. Len is not a professional "interfaith dialoguer" but he's an "anti-missionary type who was sent here to combat against a Jew talking about her Messiah, and now since I haven't engaged with him and others are he's being given room on the blog to try to undermine the name of Yeshua.”
Merry Christmas.
Not only is Joyce wrong but she is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. I am contributing, as best I can, for one reason only: It is because she had the pulpit to herself proselytizing to Jews using pseudo-biblical reasoning.
I have made it clear, several times, that I will stop discussing religion entirely if Joyce stops proselytizing. Not only does she persist in general but is shockingly intrusive in her insistence on praying for me personally, in the name of her god, after I pleaded with her to desist.
How much more arrogant than this can someone be?
Then Joyce uses moral equivalence to attempt to drown me out. There are many intellectual “theologians” and archaeologists out there attacking the veracity of the Jewish Bible; the Tanakh. Therefore anyone who points out flaws in the New Testament is equivalent to those attackers.
Only Joyce is believable; no one else.
Joyce; I am ready to answer any of your Tanakh criticisms. Go for it.
All I ask in return is for you to deal with the issues instead of making cheap personal attacks.
Len
12/25/2008
Paul asserts: “There's nothing wrong with the timeline or the narrative. There's also NO discrepancy between the Gospels. None.”
I am always willing to learn, Paul. Here are the four KJV quotes; the synoptics, that show the last supper as a Passover seder, plus John which clearly shows, in 19:14, that he is crucified before the evening of Passover; before the seder.
What am I missing?
Mat: 26:17: Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
18: And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19: And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
20: Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. ---
27: 1: When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Mark 14: 16: And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17: And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
18: And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.---
15: 1: And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
Luke 22:1: Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
2: And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.---
13: And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
14: And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15: And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19: And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
John 12: 1: Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2: There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. ---
13: 1: Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
29: For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
18: 27: Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.
28: Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.
29: Pilate then went out unto them, and said, What accusation bring ye against this man?
19:13: When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
14: And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
15: But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priest answered, We have no king but Caesar.
16: Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
12/25/2008
Dear Barb,
I went to your recommended site:
http://content/uploads/
2008/05/
solving-the-three-day-three-
night-mystery.pdf
but got a Broken-Link message.
Len
"Not only does she persist in general but is shockingly intrusive in her insistence on praying for me personally, in the name of her god, after I pleaded with her to desist."
May Abba open the eye's of Len's understanding that he would see the Yeshua, the Light of the world, His Jewish Messiah.. In the powerful, awesome an holy name of My God, My Lord and My King, Yeshua!
The real Joyce ( not the imposter who signed in my name with ;o))
I am not ashamed of the gospel of Messiah, it is the power of salvation of all who believer, first to the Jew, then to the Greek...
Len:
It is apparent to anyone who reads Joyce's rants that she has some serious "issues" as a human being.
Nearly all who post here are Christians. This leads me to conclude that Joyce's primary objective is to stir up animosity toward the Jewish religion amongst Christians.
Let me explain to you how I see this at work.
Joyce's self-proclaimed identity as a "Jew" gives the Christians here who identify with her a safety valve by which they can say, "I know Joyce, she is a Jew, and therefore my beliefs about Judaism, and my words and actions in relation to Jews, cannot be anti-semitic."
She plays off their latent guilt and ignorance about Judaism in order to manipulate their emotions. Very few Christians want to be accused of antisemitism. Having Joyce as their cheerleader allows the Christians here who follow her to "have it both ways."
Joyce avoids difficult questions and dances and weaves here way around others. Her latest stunt, which she has unveiled strategically on Christmas Day, is to try to stir up a lynch mob by accusing you of "blasphemy." It's easy for some of the dimmer bulbs here to get behind this kind of lynch mob. After all, the mob is being led by a "Jew" named Joyce, who, like them, worships Jesus (Yeshua).
Do you see the pattern here?
Her antics only works with Christians whose critical thinking skills are underdeveloped. (Since mine are overdeveloped to a fault, she can't touch me, fortunately. LOL.)
You, by contrast, will address any question that is put before you. I may disagree with some of your answers (this is inevitable given our religious differences) but I admire your straight-shooting style.
At this point numerous readers here will undoubtedly have noticed that at the Cumbey blog we now have a "war of attrition."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy
Peace be with you Len.
...And also Abba, may the name of Yeshua be lifted up and glorified on this blog, the name that you have chosen above every other name in heaven and on the earth, that at the sound of this name every knee will bend and every tongue will confess that Yeshua is Lord to the praise and the glory of Your Name. Amen...
Thank you Abba, that Your Word is truth... and I ask your forgiveness for those who are eyes have be blinded so that they do not see the Light of the Gospel. May you open the eyes of their understanding so that they will know how high and how deep and how wide your love is...that you gave your one and only Son to be a ransom for
their sins..
Thank you Abba in advance for what You will do in Len and Dorothy and YS's life. Yeshua's Name,
I bless them all in the Your Son's Name!
Joyce
Dear Len and Dorothy,
Don't worry. .If Yeshua isn't who He said He was.. my prayers will not work, but if He is ...you will be blessed..How bad can that be..?
b'Shem Yeshua,
Joyce
12/25/2008
paul said... “The Torah didn't have a "face". It was
abstract. A pure spirit doesn't have a
face or even a body.
Jesus was God incarnate.
The Torah "became flesh and dwelt
among us."
That is a problem that EDUCATED Jews don’t face because they assimilate the view of a transcendent God with mother’s milk. But having a visible god is its own problem and is considered by the Torah as idolatry. That is why God warned at the Sinai revelation:
Deut. 4: 9 But beware and watch yourself very well, lest you forget the things that your eyes saw, and lest these things depart from your heart, all the days of your life, and you shall make them known to your children and to your children's children, 10 the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, "Assemble the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children. 11 And you approached and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire up to the midst of the heavens, with darkness, a cloud, and opaque darkness.
12 The Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of the words, but saw no image, just a voice. ---
15 And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see not any image on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. 16 Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heaven, 18 the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth.
Vss. 16-18 are a reprise of the Second Commandment.
Paul said “I'm just too flawed and weak in the flesh. In fact,
even those Pharasees couldn't follow it
to perfection.
But Jesus told us all: "Unless your right-
eousness EXCEEDS that of the Pharasees,
you will in no way enter into heaven"
Where does that leave someone like me?
It would be hopeless for me.
But the Bible says that he will impart
HIS righteousness to us. Indeed we
will possess and embody HIS own
righteousness. It's the only hope.
Do you think most Jews are any less flawed than you are? I am at least as flawed. But Jesus was not speaking for Judaism when he said that. Ezekiel, a true prophet, had a more accurate message of God’s to imperfect humans; one that says repentance and change bring salvation:
18: 27 And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive. 28 He will see and repent of all his transgressions that he has committed-he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 And yet the house of Israel say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Is it My ways that are not right, O house of Israel? Is it not rather your ways that are not right? 30 Therefore, every man according to his ways I will judge you, O house of Israel, says the Lord God: repent and cause others to repent of all your transgressions, and it will not be a stumbling block of iniquity for you. 31 Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions whereby you have transgressed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit, and why should you die, O house of Israel! 32 For I do not desire the death of him who dies, says the Lord God: so turn away and live!"
Len
12/25/2008
In a continuation of his message Paul described significant “seven” Jewish biblical holy days. Let me modify them for greater accuracy.
1) Passover
2) Unleavened Bread
These are a single festival: Passover.
3) Firstfruits
4) Pentacost
Also a single festival known as “Shavuot – (Seven) Weeks.” (Not five! Even the Christian Pentecost is The seventh Sunday after Easter, commemorating the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples. Cheeck it out.
5) Trumpets
The Torah describes this as the day of blowing of the shofar – ram’s horn. It is more commonly known as Rosh Hashana or the New Year and is the anniversary of Adam’s creation.
6) Atonement
Yom Kippur – Day of Atonement.
7) Tabernacles
Sukkot in Hebrew.
I'm not trying to convert you Paul.
I'm just stating a little bit of God’s Torah.
I really can't help myself
Len
12/25/2008
Paul wrote: "Pentacost
sorry I meant to say He was with
the disciples seven weeks or
fifty days, minus one."
I got here after my last message. The Jewish interpretation is that the revelation at Mt. Sinai occurred the 50th day after the Exodus.
Shavuot is, in this sense, connected to Pesach/Passover and is considered by many to represent the culmination of the Passover season; hence, the name, “Weeks.” The significance of the connection is that freedom, per se, is a problematic gift unless it is accompanied by transcendent meaning and purpose. These were provided at Sinai where political liberation was transformed to spiritual dedication.
In Halakha, Jewish law, the amount of material on Shavuot is minimal; less than that for any other major holy day. This is because, of all the festivals, Shavuot is unique in that it lacks a particular ritual symbol. Pesach has matza, Succoth the succah/booth as well as the etrog and lulav (four species of vegetation). Rosh Hashanah has the shofar (ram's horn), and Yom Kippur is associated with fasting. The nature of, and treatment, of these symbols occupies much of the festivals.
For Shavuot, however, the symbol is the Torah itself. Incorporation of an alternative symbol might have conveyed the impression that it was the way to honor the Torah, whereas the Torah should be studied and applied to peoples' daily lives throughout the year. It should be applied in the home and in the workplace as much as in the synagogue. Accordingly, the tradition decided not to cloud Shavuot with a holiday-specific symbol so as to focus on the centrality of Torah.
It is Torah, not ethnicity, which has enabled Jews to survive as a people for thousands of years. Without Torah Jews would not be a people and Judaism not a religion.
We mark the seven-times-seven (49) intervening days by formally counting each one, in accordance with Lev. 23:15, much as one does when anticipating an exciting event. As the event approaches the excitement intensifies.
the Torah was given in a no-man’s land, the desert of Sinai, rather than in the promised land. The Jewish Sages reasoned that the purpose was to emphasize that the Torah did not belong to Jews alone but is available for all people. A world that is a desert, with respect to law, can be transformed into a garden of harmony among peoples by following the Guide of guides of human relationships.
In the same vein, the story of Moses’ father in law, Jethro, and the Book of Ruth, both of which are traditionally read on Shavuot, emphasize universal themes. Jethro and Ruth were not born Jews. Both, however, came to worship the God of Israel, who is also the God of all humanity. According to the Bible, the Messiah will be descended from Ruth, the convert, who was the great grandmother of King David. Ruth was a convert who voluntarily added the Jewishly mandated commandments to herself.
The last verse of the Tanakh (in 2Chronicles) features King Cyrus, also a non Jew. “Thus said King Cyrus of Persia: Lord, God of Heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and has charged me with building Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Any one of you of all His people, The Lord his God be with him and let him go up (2Chron. 36:23).”
As Rabbi Benjamin Blech has written, “When the non-Jewish king, Cyrus, proclaims God as the God of Heaven and of earth, the Scriptures may come to their proper conclusion. ... That recognition marks the dawn of the day when the Lord of Israel will in fact be the One God of the entire world."
Len
12/25/2008
Joyce wrote: "Don't worry. .If Yeshua isn't who He said He was.. my prayers will not work, but if He is ...you will be blessed..How bad can that be..?"
I look at it differently, more confidently, pursuant to what King David said to Gad:
"I am greatly oppressed; let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for His mercies are great; but into the hand of man let me not fall."
Len
(2 Sam. 24:14)
Len,
Why ask me ?
The answer is in the Torah.
Exodus 12 will tell you all about the Passover.
Leviticus 23: Will show you how The Passover,
as a "memorial every year by an ordinance
forever", like all the feasts,
was to be followed the very next day by the
Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is also
a memorial of that same event.
These two Feasts were both collectively
called "Passover" and/or "Unleavened Bread",
and they still are.
It was/ is a celebration that goes on for a
whole week, (though they could work
after the First day of Unleavened Bread
until it's last day, which began Pentecost
which is fifty days long, or a jubilee of
weeks, or the Feast of Weeks.)
Matthew , Mark, and Luke referred to
that season and festival in Jerusalem
in the various ways that it was referred
to by the various people. John gave the
most accurate discription from the point
of view of a devout Jew who just
happened to be Jesus' best friend
on earth.
The "Last Supper" was a preparation
for the Passover. To correct myself from
my previous post, this would have been
just after sundown on what we call
Wednesday. And to make the same
update of my own previous post. The
three day and three night count begins
at his burial just before sundown
on what we would call Thursday.
Jesus was the Passover Lamb;
The Preparation was because the food
had to be prepared against
not only the Passover,
but it's following day, the Feast of
Unleavened Bread and in this case,
on this particular year, they would
have had to prepare against even
the third day,which was the weekly
Sabbath. ( It's relation to the weekly
Sabbath changed every year )
Then, on the "Morrow after the Sabbath"
or first Sunday following Unleavened
Bread He arose in victory over death,
which would have been "perfectly" on
the Feast of Firstfruits, which is
what he is, also.
God's Word is perfect. My words are
not, necessarily. But I would still
maintain that he suffered the pain
of hell for a whole night before they
crucified him. Such is the depth of the
Savior's love for us. The Father smote
the Shepherd and the sheep were
scattered.
But I'll bet that they had a Passover
seder that night right after he died.
They would have kept it despite
everything; their sorrow, their
disillusionment and their utter dispair.
He was "three days and three nights
in the belly of the whale" ( earth )
Thank you for pointing that out Len.
Reading the words of Jonah is a
description of his suffering:
Jonah 2:2 ..I cried by reason of
my affliction unto the Lord, and
He heard me; out of the belly
of hell cried I, and thou heardest
my voice.
( read the rest )
see also: Lev. 25 and Numbers 29
12/25/2008
Dear Paul,
Thanks for the lesson in Judaism. Close but no cigar! May I humbly suggest that, for the next lesson, you seek Jewish sources instead of a Christian one. I suggest a source like:
www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/index.htm
First, you should know that a "day" for Jewish religious purposes, begins the evening before. We can learn that from Gen. 1 where we can read: "and it was evening and it was morning, one day." (Gen. 1:5)
That is the reason your explanation says: "These two Feasts were both collectively
called 'Passover' and/or 'Unleavened Bread',
and they still are."
If you study Exod. 12:6f you will see that the Passover lamb was slaughtered at *twilight* on the
14th and eaten at night so it was essentially on the 15th; the same day as the Festival of Unleavened Bread.
Second, you wrote: "It was/ is a celebration that goes on for a
whole week, (though they could work
after the First day of Unleavened Bread until it's last day, which began Pentecost which is fifty days long, or a jubilee of
weeks, or the Feast of Weeks.)
We do not work on the last day as well as the first, pursuant to your own biblical sources: Exod. 12:16 and Lev.23:5-8.
"And on the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation; no work may be performed on them, ---." (Exod. 12:16)
Third, we refer to Pentacost as the 50th-day celebration of Weeks/Shavuot so it does not begin on the last day of Passover.
Fourth, the biblical counting of the 50 days begins on the second day, not the last, pursuant again to your source, Lev. 23:15-16:
And you shall count for yourselves, from the morrow of the rest day (of the first day) from the day you bring the omer as a wave offering seven weeks; they shall be complete. You shall count until the day after the seventh week, [namely,] the fiftieth day, [on which] you shall bring a new meal offering to the Lord.
I will not comment on your Christian stuff other than to say that, if you undestood the reasoning behind the Passover sacrifice, you would not be so anxious to call Jesus "the lamb."
It is exactly because the Egyptians worshipped sheep and did not eat them. Just as you worship the Lamb, the Egyptians similarly worshipped lambs. They also hated shepherds for similar reasons. It was Egyptian idolatry that led to their lamb worship.
When Pharaoh told Moses he would let the Jews sacrifice to their God, but within Egypt, Moses replied: “It would not be right to do this, for what we sacrifice to the Lord our God is untouchable to the Egyptians. If we sacrifice what is untouchable to the Egyptians before their very eyes, will they not stone us? (Exod. 8:22)
Rashi, the great exigate, wrote, "for all shepherds are an abomination to the Egyptians" because the Egyptians worshipped sheep." This sets the stage for the events of the Exodus.
When God tells Moses and Aaron to tell each family to draw out a lamb (Ex. 12:3), we interpet it metaphorically as drawing out from the Egyptian idolatrous environment. The Midrash states: "So it was with Israel in Egypt that they were given to idolatry and did not forsake it, for it is written, 'But they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes. (Ezek. 20:7-8)’ Said the Holy One, blessed be He, to Moses: As long as the Israelites worship the Egyptian gods they shall not be redeemed. Go and tell them to forsake their evil ways and repudiate idolatry -- as it is written, 'Draw out and take you ---' that is to say, 'Withdraw your hands from idolatry and take you a lamb, and slaughter thereby the Egyptian gods and make the Passover."
The LORD stuck it to the Egyptians by singling out their lord for sacrifice. The principle was that, if Egyptians were going to commit idolatry by worshipping a lamb, then God's people will sacrifice these false gods and objects of idolatry; exactly opposing and denigrating the Egyptian belief system. It was self assertion, on the part of the Israelites, and repudiation of their masters.
Are you still sure you want too calll Jesus "the lamb?"
Len
Len,
Try this one.
http://www.prophecyforum.com/kelley/mystery.html
http://tinyurl.com/8x7pg8
Solving the Three Day Three Night Mystery by Jack Kelley
Q. – Is anyone else finding their “google” searches not providing the proper links?
The title and the subtitle will match but the link given to the site is wrong.
Shalom,
Barb
12/25/2008
Thanks, Barb,
Again, neither of your lkiks did it for me, booth being about the "end times." But, persistent as I am, I put the title and authior in for a search and it popped up here:
http://demo.gracethrufaith.com/
wp-content/uploads/2008/05/
solving-the-three-day-three-night-mystery.pdf
For reference I will set the entire article here (I think Paul excerpted from it previously) and discuss it in the next message. It is not copyrighted.
Solving the Three Day Three Night Mystery
How long was Jesus
really in the tomb?
Tough Questions Answered
In Matthew 12:38 Jesus is asked for a sign that He’s the promised
Messiah. The religious officials had just accused Him of using
the power of Satan to perform His miracles, and so He described
the only sign they would see. “Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,” He said, “So will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
(12:40).” By this He meant that they would only know for sure after
they had put Him to death, but His response resulted in a 2000
year controversy surrounding the time of His death.
What's a Sabbath?
Actually the controversy exists largely among gentile believers.
Most Jews familiar with their religion figured it out long ago. But to a gentile ignorant of the Jewish calendar, the phrase in John
19:31 identifying the day after the Crucifixion as a special Sabbath meant that Jesus was crucified on Friday. Even gentiles know that the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday and everyone agrees that He rose again on Sunday. There isn’t any way you can put three days and three nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning. Hence the
controversy.
Sabbath means holy day. There is one every Saturday in Israel, but
there are also several during the year that are date specific. That
means they are always observed on a specific calendar date,
regardless of the weekday. Think of Christmas. It always comes on
the 25th of December no matter what day of the week that happens to be. The special Sabbath John referred to is the Feast of
Unleavened Bread, and it’s a date specific holy day; always observed on the 15th of the [Jewish lunar] month they call Nisan. So the first
thing we learn is that the special Sabbath mentioned in John 19:31 wasn’t necessarily a Saturday.
In fact there are three special Sabbaths in the month of Nisan alone; Passover on the 14th, the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th and runs through the 22nd, and the Feast of First Fruits on the Sunday morning following Passover. All have both a historical and prophetic purpose and like all days in the Jewish calendar they begin
at sundown, following the pattern of Genesis 1. This also
confuses Gentiles since our day begins at midnight.
The Passover Lamb
In Exodus 12 where the Passover is ordained, God told the Israelites
to select a lamb on the 10th and inspect it for defects until the 14th. This means through the end of the 13th. Then at twilight slaughter and roast it, eating it that same evening. Using some of its blood they were to paint their door posts red to protect them from the plague coming upon Egypt at midnight. Following our calendar, these events would
have all occurred on the night of the 13th but for them the 14th began at twilight, when the sun set.
Tradition, Tradition
Some years before the birth of Jesus the Passover celebration had
been changed and called for a brief ceremonial meal to begin the
14th followed by a great and leisurely Sabbath meal on the 15th. This tradition is still followed today. The 14th became known as Preparation Day (Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31), because on it they made ready for the great feast day beginning
at sundown. It’s also called
the first day of Unleavened
bread in Mark 14:12. Matthew
identifies the day after the
Crucifixion as the day after
Preparation Day (27:62) so all four Gospels agree. Jesus died on
Preparation day, the 14th of their month Nisan, which is Passover. He
ate the ceremonial meal with His disciples in the Upper Room, and
then was arrested, tried, convicted, and put to death; all on Passover. While we commemorate these events on Good Friday, in the year of His death, Passover fell on a Thursday.
How Do We Know This?
A little over 100 years ago a believer named Robert Anderson
was head of Scotland Yard’s investigative division. He became
intrigued by the three days and three nights issue and enlisted the
help of the London Royal Observatory to investigate the problem since astronomers can locate the exact position of the planets and stars on any date in history. Since Passover always falls on the 14th, and since
the Jewish calendar is lunar (moon) rather than solar (sun) oriented, there is always a full moon on Passover. This fulfills Genesis 1:14. Plotting the course of the Sun and Moon they documented the day and date of every full moon. The Royal Observatory discovered that
the first Palm Sunday was the 10th of Nisan, Passover, the 14th was
therefore a Thursday, and Resurrection Morning was also a Sunday, the 17th. From Thursday afternoon through Sunday morning there are three days and three nights. Both the Jewish and Gentile calendars confirm this. It was written in the stars.
So in the week Jesus died two Sabbaths were observed: The Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th, and the regular weekly Sabbath
on the 16th. In Matthew 28:1 we read that at dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday the 17th) the women who were close to Jesus
went to look at the tomb. Luke 24:1tells us they were going to anoint His body for burial. The two Sabbaths had prevented them from doing so earlier. But He wasn’t there. He had risen. Being the Sunday after Passover, at the Jewish Temple it was Feast of First Fruits. At the Empty Tomb it was Resurrection Morning.
Just a little word about Kabbalah that is being explained as "normative Judaism". Rashbi who was born in 80 a.d. and wrote the Zohar, one of the books of Kabbalah followed the failed and false messiah, Simon Bar Kokhba.. There are people that think this man is the reincarnation of people in the Tankakh ( Torah, Writings and Prophets) .
As the story goes, he hid himself in a cave for years and got the revelation of the Zohar. Now the difference between Rashbi and Yohanaon, the apostle of Yeshua, is Yohanan followed the Messiah who rose from the dead, and Rashbi followed someone that attacked the Romans but died and was never heard from again..
Okay, let's look at how Kabbalah stands up to Torah:
Deut. 18:21 “1You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?
Deut. 18:22 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
The fact that Rashbi was a follower of the failed, false Messiah Simon Bar Kokhba should be a big heads up that his very important work of Kabbalah,
"the Zohar" does not come from a true prophet of God...or he would have had the wisdom not to follow Bar Kokhba.
Let's see what Torah says about some of the other practices of Kabbalah. The Kabbalists Israel put a curse on Ariel Sharon. I'm not saying that it worked although I'm sure they think it did when he went into a coma. It looks like they tried to do the same to Olmert:
http://tinyurl.com/a78jjy
So what does Torah say about this kind of evil:
Deut. 18:10-11 “There shall not be found among you anyone awho makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one bwho practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, aor a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
Now I just want to say that I know Jews that do not consider Kabbalah "normative Judaism". Let's assume though that the Chasidic and some of the Orthodox branch do consider works by a man who followed a failed Messiah "normative Judaism".. What would Torah have to say about that?
We know that the true prophets of Tanakh predicted Yeshua's birth, death and resurrection and return. That would include Moses, David, Isaiah, Micah, Zechariah, just to name a few. In fact all of Tanakh is about Yeshua.
This week the Jews in synagogues around the world will read the story of Joseph, who was betrayed by his brothers, sold for 20 pieces of silver ( Yeshua was sold for 30 and the Prophet Jeremiah predicted this), was unrecognizable to his brothers until Judah repented and was willing to take the place of Benjamin ( son of my right hand, son of my sorrows). Joseph had the bread of life, but was despised and rejected, betrayed and given to foreigners, like Yeshua was given to the Romans for execution. Joseph was the favored son of his father, Yeshua is the one and only Son of His Father. Joseph reunited the family. Yeshua will reunite the family when He returns. This wholeness is called Shalom.
Abraham gave his "one and only son" Isaac up to be sacrificed but said "God would provide the sacrifice".
Moses said there is one coming that was greater than he. He saw God face to face..
Isaiah said that Messiah would be bruised for our iniquities and by His wounds we would be healed.
Zechariah said we would look upon He who was pierced and weep as one weeps for an only begotten Son.
Micah said He would be born in Bethlehem
John the Baptist, told us to prepare the way and make our paths straight for him.
David said not one of his bones would be broken, his garments would be divided.
He is called the second Adam because the first Adam sinned and sin entered the world.
Ezekiel said He would bring the two houses of Israel back together...which will be fulfilled in the future as Jewish believers in Yeshua and Joseph, who is in the nations and is unrecognizable to his brother will be recognized...as Judah comes to the realization that Joseph has the bread of life, even though he looks like a goy.
Folks this story is key in the reconciliation of All Israel. These are prophecies which will come to pass, but until Judah repents and stops following the false prophets...it will not happen.
Just a historical note here. The Jewish believers in Yeshua were still worshipping in the synagogues and going to the Temple till it was destroyed in 70 a.d. In 135 a.d. when the Jewish believers in Yeshua refused to follow the false prophet Simon Bar Kokhba, the real falling out between the other Jews took place. They gave a prayer in the synagogues that would have forced Yeshua's followers to renounce Him, so they stopped going to the synagogues. The other Jews thought the believers in Yeshua were traitors because they would not join forces against Rome with this false messiah.
This was the beginning of the split between the Jewish believers in Yeshua and the other Jews. Prior to that, they were considered a sect of Judaism. All the other messiahs of Judaism have failed. Shabbatai Zevi, Simon Bar Kokhba, Jacob Frank. In fact according to Jewish sources Luria, a famous Kabbalist paved the way for the false messiah Shabatai Zevi:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Luria.html
Then the Chabad movement followed another false messiah :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson
So...when we look at the history of Kabbalah and its influence on Judaism, I am hard pressed to see it either as "normative" or very useful. On the contrary, it seems to have given rise to most if not all the false messiahs. It employs curses which are forbidden in the Torah, and none of its "prophets" have amounted to anything.
Today, it seems to be giving rise to people like Rav Michael Laitman, and Eliyahu Benedikt who are total New Agers. Laitman talks about Cybernetics and mixes easily with all kinds of other "mystics" from other traditions.
We won't even talk about the sexual content of Kabbalah which is disturbing to say the least. The reason that only men over 40 can study it is somewhat understandable..but God does not hide His truths from us.. contrary to what Kabbalah says.
This is what the false prophets of Kabbalah do:
Jer. 23:16 Thus says the LORD of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the LORD.
Look what God says about these kind of "prophets"
Jer. 23:22-23“But if they had astood in My council,
Then they would have announced My words to My people,
And would have turned them back from their evil way
And from the evil of their deeds.
“Am I a God who is near,” declares the LORD,
“And not a God far off?
God doesn't have some hidden things only for 40 year old men to study:
Deut. 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but bthe things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.
Nor is it so complicated that only the Kabbalists can show it to us:
Deut. 30:11-13“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
It doesn't sound like we need some secret wisdom to know what God is talking about.
God has revealed all to us and it is plain to see who Messiah is:
Prov. 30:4 Who has aascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has cwrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His son’s name?
Surely you know!
Yes, the Name of His Son is Yeshua!
Kabbalist have supposed received special revelations and in fact they consider themselves the reincarnation of people like Moses, which is utterly absurd. There are no examples of reincarnation in the Bible, only in Hinduism. All the people that God spoke through in Tanakh and the Apostolic Scriptures spoke the truth plainly because we do not serve a God of confusion. There are no more prophets because God's Word says:
Heb. 1:1-4 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
and from Paul:
2Cor. 4:2-5 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
For we ado not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.
There is nothing hidden, that hasn't been revealed. God has spoken and He has spoke through His Son,
Yeshua the Messiah, so all of the so-called prophets of Kabbalah are false.
Joyce
Len
First you insult me and imply that
I have no education.
Then you proceed to give the
"correct" timeline based on Sir
Robert Anderson's calculations.
But your "corrected" timeline is
exactly the one which I gave you,
which proves you didn't read my
post but simply knee-jerked into
your usual superior posture.
I'm a big fan of Sir Robert
Anderson. "The Coming Prince"
is a masterpiece.
So, you can't stand me or my
inferior view, but you agree with
me ?
Is that what they call a Superiority
Complex ?
Len,
Thanks for posting the entire article I posted by Jack Kelly who quoted from Robert Anderson's calculations. I wanted to but thought it too much space to take up.
But I'm glad you did!
Although I don't understand the insult that Paul speaks of about you (and don't need to), I was blessed to hear his comment re: Robert Anderson and his opinion on the book "The Coming Prince".
Shalom,
12/26/2008
Paul,
I posted that in the interest of full disclosure. I was looking for a coherent statement of the view that all four apostles on the subject agree and this was it.
I agree with it as much as I agreed with your version.
I am preparing a response to it but will not post it for a few more days.
Have a nice weekend.
Len
In the meantime enjoy your support.
12/26/2008
Joyce,
Are you spamming; posting identical (very long) messages in two places?
Len
Shem1777 12:16pm
Thank you so much for posting the correct timeline for the burial and resurection of Christ. I had seen this explanation somewhere and was thinking of it while reading the other posts on this "contradiction". It's good to see it here.
God Bless you.
Suzette
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