Well, here's a Catholic version of the "Emerging Church" which appears from the tone of the brochure to be networked with the Protestant comrades in apostasy. This is exactly the type of material I was viewing back in 1981 when I first discovered the New Age Movement. The apostates were an ecumenical bunch then and they still are now -- with the benefit of broadband internet this time.Many, many thanks to Carrie Tomko for posting this information and the link to this brochure on her blogspot. Here is a link to Carrie's site. I recommend you visit it from time to time. Carrie writes from a Catholic perspective and has kept amazing pace with New Age threats with that religion.
I am praying that the incessant squabbling on my forum / comment section will soon cease. Blessed are the peacemakers!
Constance
373 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 373 of 373SUZETTE
Conversion to Judaism is not rare. Many people have found that is where their faith is after looking into its beliefs. People come to Judaism from other religions as well as from the secular Jewish community.
I'm glad you've affirmed your faith in Christianity. Anytime someone takes on the challenge of learning a new field of study, there is no guarantee it won't change a person's life. It all depends on one's standards in evaluating new information.
From a secular point of view, Judaism and Christianity must be eliminated on behalf of a one world government. It's a long term project. The effort is to destroy any opposition to forming a one world culture where everyone thinks the same. The plan is to destroy the monotheistic moral code, which people will have allegiance to over the moral code proposed by the government.
New Age proponents couldn't care less if Christians only believed that Jesus existed. It's what Christianity teaches that stands in their way. They are more concerned that Christians fight abortion than that Christians believe Jesus died for their sins. They can be tolerant of anybody's God as long it involves "spirituality" rather than morality. A long time ago I came across a website put on by some esoteric group. It ranked political, religious and cultural leaders as to where on the ascended master scale they ranked. Jesus as a human being overshadowed by the Christ figure was no biggie to them.
When Joyce makes her recommendation, keep in mind that the rabbi she is referring to will probably be a Christian recommending a version compatible with Christianity. As I posted earlier, Messianic Christians use the title for their teachers who may or may not have a knowledge of Judaism.
Dorothy
It isn't about changing one's theology. Its about our SALVATION which comes under only name under heaven, J - E - S - U - S
Joyce
Happy New Year! I am patient (sometimes). That would be great. Hope you have a great evening and may we all find ourselves closer to Yahweh and Yeshuah with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Blessings to you
Suzette
I thought Dorothy wanted no proslytizing on this forum -- that works BOTH WAYS!
From Infowars (12/31/08)
National Guard Soldiers to Usher in New Year at Times Square
Later this evening as the newfangled Times Square Ball descends in Manhattan, you may see New York National Guard soldiers patrolling with the NYPD as you watch on television. “Under orders from New York Governor David Paterson, members of the New York Army and Air National Guard will conduct additional security missions and stand ready to respond to city authorities if a man-made or natural emergency occurs,” reports Jim Kouri, who is currently fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police.
ANONYMOUS 10:23
Don't get yourself tied up in a knot. I was answering a question about a Bible used by the Jewish community. There will always be Christian missionary work on this blog and you know it. Christians do it among themselves, always offering a better branch to join.
One of these days Joyce will find a regular Christian poster here who will become a Messianic Christian as a result of all of her hard work. It will make her very happy. I would never want to stop Christians doing missionary work among Christians.
Dorothy
Constance 9:08Pm
I am so excited! I would love to! My DH is warning me to not make arrangements over the net {he's starting to sound like me :)} But I wouldn't feel comfortable going without someone like yourself who has fought this stuff first hand. I think I might be too new to go it alone and come out unscathed.
I am "psyched"! LOL
Suzette
Dorothy
Thank you. I have heard of people converting from Christianity to Judaism. While I might disagree with others choice of religion, it is my absolute belief that we are all free to choose and practice (with reasonable limitations) the religion we choose. The dilema is the nature of religion itself, how to remain true to our own beliefs and allow others whose beliefs may be completely against ours, or at least varied from our own, and still be able to say with self respect and honesty that we are as true to our belief as we say we are. As the very nature of at least Christianity is to spread The Word. It's a mandate. We are not truly following the doctrine we say we believe in if we do not wish to share it with others.
However, no matter how much I believe my own personal beliefs are right and therefore would be beneficial and righteous for all, I don't wish to have ANY religion as a matter of law (one of the reasons I'm here) because more than likely, it will be the wrong one and will be ruled by men (and consequently Satan) rather than God.
Blessings to you
Suzette
I, for one, have no intention of denying Jesus the Lord who bought me, washed me in His blood, and saved me from my sins. That IS important, at least to me!
Suzette,
I'm reading an interesting book and I recommend it to any on the blog who are interested in issues surrounding the Shoah and anti-semitism. It's called "The Twisted Cross" and among other things it shows how the Hebrew roots were cut from the faith and any connection to anything Jewish was removed.. The Church in Germany had to pretty much make their own traditions which of course were Aryan and had nothing to do with true Biblical faith which is completely found on Hebrew Scriptures.
Both Tanakh and the Apostolic writings are written by Hebrews, with the possible exception of the book of Luke and Luke is thought by some to have been either part Jewish or a god fearer. He spent his time around Jews, either way so..
Even the Greek used in the Apostles writing is not normal Greek. They use hebraisms, so I think you are really wise to try to understand the Hebrew meaning of texts. It's really impossible to understand the Bible with out understanding the Hebrew roots of the faith.
In 325 a.d. this is what Constantine tried to do and the Apostle Paul clearly warned against this.
Rom. 11:17-18 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
We are to be partakers of the "rich root" of the Olive Tree. I submit to you these roots are hebraic. A Hebrew is one who "crosses over" . Abraham left his pagan family. When are believers we are not supposed mix back in with paganism but rather attach ourselves to the "called out" people God called Israel. They are Israel, because Jacob, whose name was changed "wrestled with God and he persevered". We too have to wrestle with God, fact to face. All the great people of the Bible had face to face relationship with the Creator, not religion.. big difference.
All of the patriarchs, the prophets, the apostles, etc.
Rudi,
I made a mistake about that fellow Eddie, evidently he does come from a Jewish heritage but they consider themselves Christians according to the video of him and his wife.
http://tinyurl.com/9eq43o
It's not important what they call themselves at this point in the conversation here. It's know that Haredi harass believers in Yeshua in Israel.
There are a lot of Israelis who do not though, and I think that is important because in the Scriptures we have the same situation and when we read "the Jews" in the Apostles writing we assume it's ALL the Jews, but it never was. There was a part of the Jewish leadership who harassed Yeshua and His disciples, but many followed Him too.
Joyce
Dorothy,
No, the rabbi I know is not Christian, and does not openly profess Yeshua. You would say he is kosher.
Joyce
I do believe that God revealed Himself as Father, as Son and through His Spirit but I would say that the expression trinity is a man-made after the fact doctrine, again given by the Catholic Church that does not square up with "Hear O Y'Israel, the Lord is God the Lord is One."
God revealed Himself in the burning bush, on Mt. Sinai with blasts of thunder and lightening, in the pillar of smoke and the pillar of fire, as high and lifted up on a throne, to Abraham when He visited Him. Do we say in Torah that God is three separate people. God revealed Himself as El Shaddai, as the I will be who I will be, as YHVH. . How can we explain a God who will be what He will be? He also says He's echad (one). He never describes Himself as "three persons" so why should we? The way I see it, God is mighty enough to reveal Himself anyway He well pleases and far be it for me to try to put Him in a box.
Like so many things that people think are central to faith in Yeshua, if they go back and study the history they will learn that that might not be 100% true.
The problem is why try to put God in a doctrinal box and the concept of trinity is a handy one that the Catholic church came up with, but it has it's roots in Bablyonian paganism. God never referred to Himself as a trinity. He said He is echad.
Do I doubt what Scripture says, that Yeshua is one with His Father, that He is all of the fulness of deity in bodily form, that He is born of the Ruach Hakodesh, etc. I do, but the history of the word trinity has some pagan sources and I don't think it adequately describes who God is.
In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us is what the first chapter of John says.
That is a pretty hard thing for most of us simple people to wrap our arms around.
Not saying that I agree 100% with this article but it brings up some interesting points about this whole notion of the trinity and the historical context.
http://tinyurl.com/2sjvrg
Like a lot of other things that the Catholic Church implemented which were of questionable origin, we can examine this in the light of Scripture and Yeshua's words. There is more I can say about Matt 28:19, but I'll leave that alone for now.
What I would say to you Susanna, if you believe that we are to go into all the world and make disciples, why are you putting down people, whether they be Jewish, or Christian for doing that in Israel, or do you think the verse means, go into all the world and make Catholics? That's the main point of the verse to teach people to follow Yeshua, doing all that HE commanded, not the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church did more than any other institution in history to sever the believers from the Hebrew roots of their faith, and strangely we find this is the same thing that happened in Nazi Germany.
I dare say that if the Catholic Church had not done that the persecution of Jews for centuries including the Inquisition, the Shoah, etc. would not have happened. Because the Catholic Church did not heed the words of Paul, they became arrogant and forgot the Hebrew roots of their faith thus, divorcing the faith from the very person it's supposed to be built on, Yeshua, from the tribe of Judah.
As a Jewish believer in my Jewish Messiah, this is actually one of the things I find the most offensive about the Catholic faith. Do I hold all Catholics responsible for it? No, but I do think they owe it to themselves to open their minds and think and question a little bit instead of just parroting what was passed down to them.
I just want to post what you said:
"Given the way in which all your filibustering and "Hebrew-larded" private interpretations of Scripture to suit your own tastes have "obscured Christ,""
This is the kind of thing that Paul would have been talking about. "Hebrew-larded, "that is a very anti-semitic remark and shows your hatred toward the Hebrew roots of your faith in Yeshua the Messiah. It wasn't the Greeks after all, who wrote the Bible. I don't care, but for your own sake, you might want to do a little more research and you might want to spend a little more time reflecting on what this verse really means:
Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that ait is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you
You have once again confirmed my worst suspicions about the Catholic Church to be true. It has always try to divorce itself from the Hebrew roots of the faith and this is a very dangerous thing as we know from the Nazi regime.
For centuries the Church said that they replaced Isarel, but I promise you God is not done with Israel, and I am speaking of the physical descendants..
Hos. 3:5 Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.
Ezek. 37:12 “Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and acause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
Zeph. 3:20 “At that time I will abring you in,
Even at the time when I gather you together;
Indeed, I will give you renown and praise
Among all the peoples of the earth,
When I restore your fortunes before your eyes,”
Says the LORD.
God is restoring all Israel and if you don't realize this, all of your theology will be messed up and you might even up lining up with the antimessiah. If history repeats itself, and it always does, the followers of Yeshua who attach themselves to Israel and the Hebrew roots of their faith will be persecuted right along with Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble, but he who perseveres till the end will be saved. The apostate church won't have to worry about being persecuted along with the Jews because they will be on the side of the antimessiah as they were in Hitler's day.
The Messianics in Israel love the Jewish people, which is why they live in a place like that at great expense sometimes to their family. We are called to go first to the Jew and then to the Gentile, so you overlooked that verse too.
Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for bit is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Yeshua sent His disciples first to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel ( the whole House of Israel is all Israel, the House of Israel also means the Northern Kingdom)
Matt. 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
It's kind of interesting that for centuries the Catholics did forced conversions, like in the Inquistion ( which was horrible) and today Susanna is implying that we should not share our faith with the Jews.. What are we to make of this?
I certainly believe the forced conversions at the threat of death were terrible. In fact it is that very history that has made some Jews more hostile to the gospel, or the history of being called "Christ-killers" which they are not. It is this whole history of Church anti-semitism that needs to be repented for by those who were attached to institutions that did this.
There are verse after verse about how God will be faithful to the physical descendants of Israel. If you don't understand the Hebrew roots of your faith, you may find yourself a bit confused when this all happens.
I was blessed to see German Christians walking in the Israel March with banners saying "sorry for what our people did to you". To me that was the most powerful message of the gospel that one could give. These weren't people who were necessarily alive during the Shoah, but they wanted to acknowledge the sins of their ancestors and let Israel know that they were loved and supported. Since Neo-Nazism is alive and well in Europe, this position takes quite a bit of courage. There was a small group of Orthodox Jews that banned Jewish participation in the parade last year, but most Jews in Israel ignored them because they know these type of Christians sincerely love and pray and help Israel. I know many Jews who appreciate them, even if many of them do pray for the Jews to know Messiah or witness to them.
The Messianic movement is an extension of this. It's a group that has gone one step further and said, not only do we want to support Israel, but we want to fully attach ourselves to this Olive Tree and begin to correct the errors of history. Messianics do this to varying degrees and have many differences among them because it is a relatively new movement, although it existed 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. It was called the Way, and headed up by Yeshua and continued by His Jewish disciples.
Unlike the Reforms who protested against Rome, this group says, let's just scrap Rome's teachings altogether and go back to the Scriptural roots of the faith and in this way we can attach ourselves directly to that Olive Tree that Paul was talking about.
It's all a question of perspective.
Joyce
I agree, Joyce is a Scientologist.
TRINITY
It was Tertullian who coined the words "Trinity" and "Persons" to describe what Christ declared to be "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost" in the Bible.(Matthew 28:19)
The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God exists as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases, but is one being.[1][2] In other words he is the Triune God. The persons are understood to exist as God the Father, God the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, each of them having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Since the beginning of the third century[3] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[4] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Joyce, there were several trinities in pagan religions but bear no resemblence in concept with the biblical trinity.
The question is, is it justified from biblical perspective to use the term triunity. I think it is justified because of the teaching of the Bible as a whole (Old and New Testaments) and not because of one or two particular passages.
HistoryMaker, to your question whether I agree with Gary Novak's teaching Christian Morality:
The Christian Morality taught by Novak is based solidly on the objective lessons taught by Jesus Christ himself. From what I have seen demonstrated by some in this forum, it is far superior to what passes for morality here. My disclaimer on my home page is an accurate statement of my opinion of sites I link to. I also make it clear that what I believe or do not believe should be of no consequence to you the reader. The only way it would matter to the reader is if they ignore everything I have to say about deception, and attempt to determine truth according to their own existing beliefs, and the patterns established by liars.
Belief is not an accurate measure of truth. In fact, the discovery of a new truth condemns the belief which did not hold that truth. You would probably call that doubt. Dogmatic doctrines tell you to ignore the doubt and preserve your belief. The rejected truth creates a contradiction, and the 'believer' is forced to justify it, thereby accommodating the contradiction at the expense of the new truth.
I agree with Novak on the technicalities he presents about Paul. My perspective however, can accommodate Paul in the sense of a prophecy he himself pinned, and that is 2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12:
"His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders, and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved. And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie, that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness."
Paul is widely understood to be the founder of the Christian Church because of his influence among the territories controlled by Roman. It was that brand of Christianity which became adopted by the Nicene Creed from which All Christian religions sprang. If we consider today's Christianity in light of Revelation chapters 17 and 18, God is advising 'His' people to get out.
Who is Jesus Christ more likely to label a harlot? A world power, which he showed is Satan's domain (he doesn't expect much from them), or a religious organization which has pledged itself to him as a virgin bride, and then formed alliances (fornicated) with the "kings of the earth"?
"But they going away to buy, the bridegroom came. And those ready went in with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. And afterwards, the rest of the virgins also came, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But answering, he said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you." - Matthew 25:10-12.
PROSELYTIZING
There is a differencce between "proselytizing" and "incessant and belligerent proselytizing."
Joyce engages in the latter and in doing so damages the Body of Christ which she claims to be building up.
This does beg the question, what is Joyce's real agenda?
Joyce just gut a good night's sleep, put a battery in and like that cuteDuracell pink little bunny is ready to bang her drum for the next 18 hours.
ANON 11:02
LOL
If Joyce starts to malfunction and say "Islam is the Light" someone will have to reboot her, like a Furby.
TRINITY
Although the terms "TRINITY" and "PERSONS" were coined by Tertullian to DESCRIBE the doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine itself is not a "man made after the fact doctrine."
Moreover, it certainly DOES square up with "Hear O Israel, the Lord is God the Lord is One." (Deut. 6:4)insofar as the ONE God reveals Himself/His Being as TRIUNE.....implicitly in the Old Testament - explicitly in the New Testament.
Even though as a Catholic, my rule of Faith is Scripture and Tradition(which, by the way, is itself capable of being defended Scripturally) I am willing, for the purpose of this discussion that includes my mainstream Protestant brethren whose beliefs I respect, to defend the doctrine of the Trinity - a doctrine we hold in common - from the Scriptures.
______________________________
OLD TESTAMENT
An implicit preview of the Trinity and an allowance for its future revelation is to be found in the plural pronouns with which God refers to Himself in Genesis:
"And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness....(Genesis 1:26 )
"And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."(Genesis 3:22)
One of the most compelling examples in the Old Testament of the composite sense of "one" is found in Genesis 2:24. Two people (created in the "image" of God) become "one flesh" in the marriage union (and thus a sense of the "image" in a composite sense).
"Let US go down, and there confound their language, that
they may not understand one another's speech.(Genesis 11:7)
"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for US? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isaiah 6:8
A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm 110:1
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Prov 30:4
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Isaiah 48:16:
NEW TESTAMENT
_______________________________
1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever --
17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
In this passage, Jesus promises that He will send the Holy Spirit and who will convict the world of sin. Yet He also makes it clear that He goes to the Father. He does not become the Father, nor does He become the Holy Spirit. The book of 1 John walks us through the Trinity. Look at these verses from chapters 2 and 4:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1 John 4
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
Matthew 5
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Matthew 28
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Spirit.
__________________________________
John 8:49-59
49
Jesus answered, "I am not possessed; I honor my Father, but you dishonor me.
50
I do not seek my own glory; there is one who seeks it and he is the one who judges.
51
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death."
52
(So) the Jews said to him, "Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.'
53
Are you greater than our father Abraham, 21 who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?"
54
Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'
55
You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word.
56
Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it 22 and was glad.
57
So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?" 23
58
24 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM."
59
So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.
________________________
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Now compare the quoted Scripture passages with the
Chalcedonian Creed and the Nicene Creed where all these revelations from Scripture are summed up.
CHALCEDONIAN CREED
OR "CREED OF THE HYPOSTATIC UNION" (a.k.a. the 2-Nature Doctrine) a defense against those who would "severe Christ" and therefore have the "spirit of the antichrist."
The Council of Chalcedon is one of the seven ecumenical councils accepted by Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, and many Protestant Christian churches.
The Chalcedonian Creed is an ancient creed about the Trinity and Jesus Christ.
________________________
We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;
truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;
consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;
in all things like unto us, without sin;
begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;
one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;
the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;
as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcedonian_Creed
see also
http://tinyurl.com/a7wjpj
_______________________________
NICENE CREED
The Nicene Creed (pronounced /ˈnaɪsiːn/) is an ecumenical Christian statement of faith accepted in the Eastern Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Old Catholic Church and its offshoots, the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Communion, and almost all branches of Protestantism, including the Reformed churches, the Presbyterian Church, and the Methodist Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed
______________________________
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
http://tinyurl.com/2qyfcx
A Happy Holy Healthy Prosperous New Year to all!
Suze +1
DISAMBIGUATION
Susanna +1
As a matter of fact I didn't sleep a lot, but I do have one thing to say, for those on the blog who stay with the text of Scripture, the trinity doctrine is from Catholicism. so is celibacy, the Virgin Mary, the Pope, indulgences, sacraments, ecumenism...
Because some brave men about 400 years ago decided to go back and take a fresh look at the Scriptures, we had the Reformation. Reformation is not a one shot deal, so I encourage those of you who actually take the time to think.. There is further reformation going on in the body today. A lot of the church will end up falling back into the arms of Rome. It's already happening as we can see from the subject of this very blog.
A lot of the church will set up labyrinths and hold yoga classes. Some will just water down the gospel until it has no more power. Antinomism or anti Torah is the source of much of the error that's creeping in today.
If you start with the foundation, God said He is One.. I agree with Len on that actually. I just don't see His oneness the same way as Len does. He is so far beyond our comprehension that we cannot put him in our little god box.
He is the Word, He is the Alpha and Omega, He is the bread of Life, He is YHVH, HE is the I will be who I will be ( that in itself should tell you something) He is El Shaddai, He is Adonai Yireh, Adonai Raphe, etc, etc. .. How can we put the Creator and the Redeemer of the universe in our little box? The same way we can make a little statue of him..
If we, as humans are mind, body and spirit...could it be possible that God is revealing differnt facets of Himself.. The fact that the Catholic Church has made a trinity, that says Yeshua contradicted His Father and cancelled Shabbat, the mo'ed, etc. shows how far we have gone from truth.
If Yeshua is one with the Father, He would never contradict the Word that was given, that was passed down from century to century. He would treat it with careless disregard and just make a new calendar, because if He did what the Catholic Church did, He would make His Father a liar. We know that the Father is not a liar. The same way that He promise to restore Israel, He will accomplish everything in the Scriptures.
As Yeshua said, not one jot or tittle will pass away. The whole world will pass away, but God's Word will not pass away.
Having said all that, I pray blessings on the folks here for the New Year ahead. I won't stoop to the level of trading silly insults...I will bless those who curse me..in the name of Yeshua
Joyce
Hi Joyce,
Did you mean to say "To those who curse me, I will 'bless' you with more of my incessant and belligerent proselytizing"?
LOL
P.S.
JHVH
JHVH is an archaic Hebrew verb for being in the present tense translating more properly as "I AM WHO AM"/HE WHO IS than "I will be who I will be."
Moreover, Jesus did not say "Before Abraham came to be I will be who I will be"
in John 8:58 Jesus said "Before Abraham came to be I am."
We must never forget that a translation is also an interpretation.
In terms of the Trinity, the translation "I will be who I will be" implies an external "procession of the Trinity" that takes place "one after another" in time the same as for creatures - as opposed to the internal "procession of the Trinity" implied by "I AM WHO AM" which takes place "all at once" in the absolute NOW of eternity.
Now why would this be important?
The dissenting Catholic neo-modernist theologian, Father Hans Kung likes to translate JHVH as "I will be who I will be" (see DOES GOD EXIST? by Hans Kung) because the "one after another" procession implied by "I will be who I will be" conforms to the "evolutionary pantheism" of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin in so far as it depicts God as "becoming" instead of "BEING."
Use of the "I will be what I will be" translation appears in fact to give priority to "becoming" over BEING.
The "one after another" Trinitarian procession implied by the "I will be what I will be" translation of JHVH also provides a pseudo-theological sanction for the Arian heresy whose grievous Christological error centered on the claim that there was a TIME when Christ (His divine Nature)) did not exist.
Arius lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt in the early 4th century. The most controversial of his teachings dealt with the relationship between God the Father and the person of Jesus, saying that Jesus was not of one substance with the Father and that there had been a time before he existed. This teaching of Arius conflicted with other christological positions held by Church theologians (and subsequently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches and most Protestant Churches).
The term "Arianism" is also used to refer to other nontrinitarian theological systems of the fourth century, which regarded the Son of God, the Logos, as a created being (as in Arianism proper and Anomoeanism) or as neither uncreated nor created in the sense other beings are created (as in "Semi-Arianism").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
The "I will be who I will be" translation of JHVH is also compatible with the "emanationist" cosmogony of the gnostics.
The translation of JHVH may appear to some to be a "little matter."
But the ancient Greek philosopher, Aristotle, made and recorded a very true observation in De Caelo, I, 5 which is no less true now than when Aristotle first made the observation:
"The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold."
Joyce said:
"If we, as humans are mind, body and spirit...could it be possible that God is revealing differnt facets of Himself"
Yes, that is exactly how i perceive the triunity. Triunity; for a lack of a better word. God, His Spirit and His Word.
In the bible God communicates with us, His Son communicates with us and His Spirit communicates with us. God said..Jesus said..The Spirit said.. There's no way to comprehend this so in my opinion Triunity is the only word that poorly on one hand and best on the other describes The One God.
Trinities are as old as humanity and not something that the catholic church invented. It's likely that satan perverted the true triunity by inventing fake trinities.
Joyce,
You wrote:
This is the kind of thing that Paul would have been talking about. "Hebrew-larded, "that is a very anti-semitic remark and shows your hatred toward the Hebrew roots of your faith in Yeshua the Messiah.
No, Joyce. What it shows is YOUR OWN anti-Semitism insofar as you are willing to go so far as to disguise your non-Trinitarian ("Christian???") beliefs as Judaism in order to trick Jews into converting.
You also wrote:
"You have once again confirmed my worst suspicions about the Catholic Church to be true. It has always try to divorce itself from the Hebrew roots of the faith and this is a very dangerous thing as we know from the Nazi regime."
I will just echo what a good Franciscan priest once told me:
"There is nothing more vicious than an apostate Catholic with a guilty conscience."
And I will ask you AGAIN:
Where in the Bible does it clearly state that the "Bible only" is to be the Christian rule of faith???
To Joyce (11:32 AM):
Re: "Because some brave men about 400 years ago decided to go back and take a fresh look at the Scriptures, we had the Reformation."
_______________________________
HEy, Joyce - maybe you better go back and review your history again.
The English Reformation started in the reign of Henry VIII. The English Reformation was to have far reaching consequences in Tudor England. Henry VIII decided to rid himself of his first wife, Catherine of Aragon, after she had failed to produce a male heir to the throne. He had already decided who his next wife would be - Anne Boleyn. By 1527, Catherine was considered too old to have any more children.
PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ALL OF US:
JUST HOW "BRAVE" DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO GET SO ANGRY WITH THE POPE - BECAUSE HE WON'T GRANT YOU PERMISSION TO DISCARD YOUR WIFE FOR YOUR MISTRESS - THAT YOU DECIDE TO ABANDON THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO START YOUR OWN RELIGION???
"TAKING A FRESH LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURES" HAD NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH IT!!!
P.S.
Joyce,
You can rave on about the Catholic Church all you like, but if
you don't believe in the doctrine that goes by the name of "the Trinity," as even most main stream Protestants believe, then the Christ you claim to believe in is highly suspect and probably NOT in conformity with the Scriptures!
Anonymous 12:36
Like the other guy said, Joyce is a Scientologist.
"Spain’s Jewish Problem"
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3719
Highly recommend reading entire article.
Happy New Year!
Let's see. The Holy Trinity: Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. Doesn't seem that complicated to me. Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer; nope, not hard to understand at all. I don't see anything pagan about it. Maybe the Christmas tree in my living room, but it's going down tomorrow.
David in Battle Creek
What's next on your debunking list Joyce?
The incarnation?
Oh, come on Joyce - tell us WHO you really work for!!!
Regarding Spanish P.M. Zapatero's speechmaking abilities:
"That state of the address was the best I have heard from any leader -anywhere in the world - yet!"
http://www.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=club&op=forum&c=972&t=933066&seen=&off=50#endm
"European Socialists to Join Forces for Elections, Spring '09"
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3840126,00.html
(Note: Both Dr. Solana and Spanish P.M. Zapatero are Socialists, and according the above, "Spain's Jewish Problem" article, Zapatero borders on rabid anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism.)
Spain is also the 8th economic power in the world.
TENT LADY'S READING LIST:
At the risk of opening Pandora's Box, I would like to call attention for the people arguing here to a link that Dorothy brought to our attention a few days ago.
Dorothy wrote:
ON RAAPANA'S READING LIST
Gnostic Liberation Front
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/
As I said, if one wants to follow Raapana's leads, this is what you'll find. Not the only one.
Serious research? I don't think so. Maybe others here do.
Dorothy
*********************************
If you go to the link that Dorothy cited, which was evidently linked to Nikki's reading list, on the far left is a box that says "The Gnostics". Click on the box and you'll be on a different page called Gnostic Rebelliousness. Go down and click the first link there , 'Jewry the Father of the Gnostics' or here:
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/Gnostic%20Rebelliousness.htm#jewry
or
http://tinyurl.com/7s5feb
As many of you know, I have been very interested in Gnosticsm since I read "The Armageddon Conspiracy" which is why I followed these links. (Note: I am NOT an antisemite!)
The information in this article is very long, and is apparently written by a Gnostic that converted, which makes it interesting. I am not nearly finished, but it addresses a great many issues that are currently being discussed (argued) here, including the Trinity, the early church, the Church Fathers,the Kaballah, and even my own concerns about the Cainnites, the virile Gnostic sect that wrote the book I mentioned above. I would like some critical analysis of the information contained on this link- especially from Constance,
There are not going to be any easy answers or solutions to the bickering here, but this link does cite information that claims to be historic. For that reason, I would like some feedback from Constance, Susanna, Joyce, Dorothy , Rudi, JD and other valuable contributors here.
Anon 1:02
I told you, it's the Scientologists.
Do you think she does this for free? Heck no! She gets paid on the "writer's scale" -- not by the hour but by the word.
I said I didn't sleep last night.. Yes 400 years was a mistake..I don't count well on little sleep.. contrary to _______who said I had lots of sleep and could go on for hours.
Now as far as the other remarks I stand by them. . Yes, and how "deceptive" of me to want to see Jews know their Messiah...I "hid" the "trinity" . I'll use Susanna's logic and say "where do you see the word Trinity in the Bible and repeat that six times". Give me a verse of Scripture that uses the word "trinity".. Actually, you already said it that was after the Scriptures that men came up with these ideas and super-imposed them backwards.
I'm honest enough to say that I don't think I can put God in that box, but I know He is echad, one. Since I start my studies at Bereshit ( Genesis) not Matthew, I have to believe that God said that for a reason. Yes, aren't I terrible for want to see the son's of Abraham know their Messiah... I must really be a horrible evil person, that I don't want them to stay in darkness...
Susuanna, I have one suggestion for you. Put down your Church doctrine that you have memorized and read your Bible. You might actually learn who the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is. If that threatens you to read without the help of the "Church traditions" you might ask yourself who put that fear in you to question "the Catholic Church" because God did not give us a spirit of fear but a spirit of love, power and sound mind.
What I'm getting out of your remarks is that you would have gotten along fine with the German Christian movement in the 1930's that sought to remove every single shred of evidence of the Hebrew roots of the faith and any mention whatsover of Jews. It will be hard to prove that , Yeshua had blond hair and blue eyes and he ate pork and desecrated the Sabbath, and had pagan ideas that he mixed in with the Torah to make his beliefs more attractive to the nations. If that's what He did guess what, His atonement would not be valid.
This is what Catholicism has done with the Jew, Yeshua.. and for that reason among others, Jews will have great difficulty recognizing a Jewish Messiah.. Thank God that in spite of the Catholic Church, today many Jews are recognizing Yeshua, even if Dorothy and Len don't. My next door neighbor who is a Jew who still goes to synagogue pulled me aside and said "it's true" we blew it.. He is the Messiah, but He's a Jew.. He's not Greek!!! She is running around telling her whole Jewish community that Yeshua is the Messiah, that they missed it.. but she is telling them about the Jewish Messiah who followed Torah and who is the Word who became flesh.
Joyce
"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. Titus 1:12
What I'm getting out of your remarks is that you would have gotten along fine with the German Christian movement in the 1930's that sought to remove every single shred of evidence of the Hebrew roots of the faith and any mention whatsover of Jews. It will be hard to prove that , Yeshua had blond hair and blue eyes and he ate pork and desecrated the Sabbath, and had pagan ideas that he mixed in with the Torah to make his beliefs more attractive to the nations. If that's what He did guess what, His atonement would not be valid.
This is what Catholicism has done with the Jew, Yeshua..
Joyce you are a disgusting human being, filled with slander and lies.
I hope they are paying you well because money and your so-called "friends" (including the imaginary orthodox Jewish ones) are the only reward you are going to get.
You are having your consolations now, so enjoy them, dear....
"While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, what think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD saith unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
No, not here. I already told you I'm not wasting my time.. Just explaining a few facts to Susanna that she might not be aware of about the history of her church.
Since I am a Jew, I wanted to present my perspective on the Catholic Church from a Jewish perspective. I believe I do have the right to do that. There's another Jewish person on the blog that has no problems presenting strong opinions, so I'm in good company.
Believe me, with so much of my family killed in the Shoah, I've thought about it quite a bit. I think that gives me the right to express my views on a subject that I've pondered for years.
Joyce
Joyce,
The fact that you have the right to "express your opinions" doesn't make those opinions, or your treatment of others, any less disgusting.
Susuanna,
"There is nothing more vicious than an apostate Catholic with a guilty conscience."
Yes, can he sell me some more of those indulgences so I can "pay" to have my sins forgiven..
I got over the Catholic guilt a long time ago, now I'm working on the Jewish guilt...not.
I prefer the free gift of Yeshua's blood shed for me, thank you.. Of course he will say that...job security..
Joyce
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are"
Just want to say, I appreciate the anonymous poster who gave an honest effort to describing how they think of this notion of the different aspects of God at 12:14 p.m.
I appreciate the fact that you actually took the time to think something through..especially in light of the fact that Torah says God is echad/one. We can't simply through out these verses of the Bible. Torah doesn't say He's three gods in One. It says He is One and yet we see diverse aspects of Him even in Torah, which allows us to say that God can present Himself in different ways because after all, He is God.
I happen to believe all of Torah is true, since it is the Bible, so I have a hard time with the concept of the trinity.
Joyce
Joyce:
There are others on this blog (besides Susanna) waiting for you to answer Susanna's question of 12:17 PM:
"Where in the Bible does it clearly state that the 'Bible only' is to be the Christian rule of faith???"
_________________________________
JOYCE, YOU CAN'T EVEN GIVE A REPLY AS TO WHY YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER HER QUESTION.
COULD IT POSSIBLY BE BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER???
To Shem1777 (1:21 PM):
WHO exactly (on this blog) are you calling "hypocrites" and WHY?
You need to be more specific.
Stop being vague.
FYI to Joyce (2:20 PM):
Indulgences are no longer sold in the Catholic Church; therefore, it is entirely inappropriate for you to bring up something that no longer applies in these modern times!!!
Your argument is null and void.
Grass Hopper:
Maybe this is why Niki linked to
the GNOSTIC LIBERATION FRONT?
".....Think about it: Not only do the Zionists and their embedded clones rule the White House, they also have the political apparatus (left, liberal, center and right) to silence, insult, witch hunt and isolate any critic of their agenda, their organizations and of the State of Israel. When confronted by a critic the entire apparatus brays in unison about 'anti-Semitism' and follows up with severe civil."
But we haven't seen any of that here. Have we?
Anon 2:43:
What exactly needs to be explained about
"teachers of the law and Pharisees"?
Since Jesus Christ freed us from the Law of Moses, we are no longer under Law. Unless the Zionists get their way and enslave us and exact blood sacrifices from us again.
To Bobby Garner (3:06):
What needs to be "explained" is WHO is Shem1777 directing his/her attacks to specifically on this blog?
Maybe this was covered but I was doing some reseach this morning and found this
http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/The_Third_Eye_(TV_series)
The Third Eye (TV series)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Third Eye was an obscure mini-series anthology that aired on Nickelodeon that consisted of a variety serials from the UK and New Zealand.
When Nickelodeon premiered, The Third Eye was one of its first programs. It was a live action sci-fi/supernatural anthology that included the first season of Into the Labyrinth (1981), The Haunting of Cassie Palmer (1982), Children of the Stones (1976), and Under the Mountain (1982). A fifth serial, The Witches and the Grinnygog (1983), was added shortly before The Third Eye was discontinued.
The series depicted in the anthology were formerly released in the UK and New Zealand. However, many were produced only shortly before being added to the Third Eye line-up.
The unifying theme of the show (and hence the name of the title, and opening montage sequence) was that of children with psychic powers.
Before every episode, an on-screen announcement declared, "The following is a science-fiction program, and may contain some very startling scenes. This show is intended for older children." Whoever was responsible for developing the series for Nickelodeon is unknown, as the anthology itself went completely uncredited. The voice-over used during the opening titles, however, is reminiscent of the work of Don LaFontaine:
"Somewhere in the crowd... sometimes you find someone very special. Someone who sees light in the dark. Someone who hears the unheard. Someone who understands the mystery. Sometimes, there's someone who sees with a third eye!"
In The Haunting of Cassie Palmer, the title protagonist, the daughter............
Suzette
I might be out for a few days, still have family in for the holidays.
THE TRINITY IN SCRIPTURE:
Matthew 28:19 - "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
When demonstrating the Trinity there are four points to establish:
1) The Father is God
1 Corinthians 1:3 - "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
2) The Son is God
John 20:28 - "Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!""
Hebrews 1:8 - "But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom."
3) The Holy Spirit is God
Acts 5:3-4 - "But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.'"
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 - "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."
4) There are not three Gods, but one God.
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 - "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; 5 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." (Note that in the NT, Jesus says the same thing in Mark 12:29).
Isaiah 43:10-11 - "'You are my witnesses,' says the Lord, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. 11 I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.'"
Also, study the following biblical passages:
Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-20; John 17:3-5.
How Can We Explain the Trinity?
It's a mystery, the greatest mystery of all!!!
Here are the basics of the doctrine of the Trinity:
1. In the one divine nature, there are three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
2. No one of the persons is either of the others, each is wholly himself.
3. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
4. They are not three Gods but one God.
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’" (Ex 3:14).
And the mistery regarding the Triunity deepens...
Joyce, can you explain this?
*Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]! There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word that has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid" or "bad").
Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.*
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity.htm
I'm not familiar with the bible.ca site, just thought this was interesting.
"...The Gnostic Liberation Front is not some "revolutionary" movement to advance Gnostic concepts but is really meant to Liberate Gnostics from themselves and show them how futile all "revolutionary" concepts and "isms" really are on this planet which they mistakenly see as "evil".
"No matter how idealistic and noble the cause is, when set into practice, as we have seen in National Socialism and Communism as well as in Fascism and extreme Capitalism, it becomes just another oppressive political system of human exploitation and manipulation. There is just NO solution to the human dilemma upon this earth. Except that we clearly understand that 'evil rules this world'!"
Conmment:
In my opinion, this is a reasonable viewpoint which doesn't pose any threat of any kind to anyone. A Christian getting aroused by this, probably believes that God cannot correct the problems, or dislikes God's solution, and simultaneously denies the value of Jesus' death.
Bobby Garner,
Since when have we all been enslaved by the Zionists? I don't recall that lesson in my high school history. Are you suggesting the Zionists have a plot to take over the world? Gee, I thought they only wanted Israel, my mistake. How would they accomplish such a feat? I thought the Freemasons were planning on taking over the world. And the communitarians. And the world elite. And Pinky and the Brain. The socialists, the secular humanists, etc...
David in B.C.
Um, Joyce, why don't you start a blog. Now I agree that it is a good thing to point people to Yeshua as Messiah, I do not think that badgering folks and going off of tangents on a website such as this is appropriate. I pray for the day that Dorothy and Lem do recognize Yeshua as Messiah. I also realize there is nothing I could say or do that would change their mind. In recent posts you have gone off a deep tangent and I think you would be better served making your point on a blog of your own. All this debating back and forth off topic kind of kills what others were talking about. So it becomes a lot of negative back and forth and detracts from the intent and purpose of what is reported here. But perhaps that is what you want? :shrug:
Joyce,
I'll use Susanna's logic and say "where do you see the word Trinity in the Bible and repeat that six times".
Hey Joyce. I am not the one claiming that the "Bible only" is my Rule of faith. You are.
Ergo, I intend to ask the same question a zillion times if need be as long as you continue to avoid answering it.
And that question is:
Where in the Bible does it cearly state that the Bible only is to be the Rule of Faith for Christians?
Bobby said: "I also make it clear that what I believe or do not believe should be of no consequence to you the reader. The only way it would matter to the reader is if they ignore everything I have to say about deception, and attempt to determine truth according to their own existing beliefs, and the patterns established by liars."
It is of consequence to me, whether or not you think it should be. Thanks!
"I agree with Novak on the technicalities he presents about Paul."
Please be specific.
"Who is Jesus Christ more likely to label a harlot? A world power, which he showed is Satan's domain (he doesn't expect much from them), or a religious organization which has pledged itself to him as a virgin bride, and then formed alliances (fornicated) with the "kings of the earth"?"
Agree. However, please answer my question about what Novak says about Paul and be specific. Is Paul's writings about Jesus dying on the cross as atonement/ propitiation fraudulent?
"If we consider today's Christianity in light of Revelation chapters 17 and 18, God is advising 'His' people to get out."
Get out of what *specifically*?
Appreciate it,
~HM
Zionist 3:33
Maybe you didn't read in high school.
Go back and read it again and pay special attention to the words. If you have difficulty, crack open a dictionary.
Revelation 5:9 (from the Jay P. Green Sr. Literal Translation of the Holy Bible)
"And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation"...
~HM
HistoryMaker:
"I agree with Novak on the technicalities he presents about Paul."
That is specific. Novak makes his own argument. Go read it if your curious.
It would matter what I believe only if I was asking you to believe me, which I am not.
Believe whatever you will.
On the Trinity
If God (the Father) is Spirit (and we know that He is) and He is Holy
John 4:24 (American Standard Version)God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
then what purpose is there for The Holy Spirit as a separate being and what nature then is the Holy Spirit as different from God The Father who is a Spirit that is Holy?
Joyce,
Re:What I'm getting out of your remarks is that you would have gotten along fine with the German Christian movement in the 1930's that sought to remove every single shred of evidence of the Hebrew roots of the faith and any mention whatsover of Jews.
Actually Joyce, if as someone else here has suggested, you would go and study your history you would know that the "German Christians" were a "pressure group" and movement - something like your "pressure group/movement" - within German Protestantism, NOT Catholicism.
It formed in May, 1932 within the German Evangelical Church. Their opponents founded the Confessing Church in 1934, which condemned the German Christians as heretics and cut them off from full communion.
Dear Jolo,
Thanks again for that link:
http://www.bltresearch.com/published/burkebook.html
Here's what it generated, or should I say germinated, LOL!
Dear Constance,
I am wondering if you are familiar with the work of Dr. James Hughes? He is the author of "Citizen Cyborg: Why Democratic Societies Must Respond to the Redesigned Human of the Future". The book is a sort of Bible of trans human values. He joins a growing body of academics, bioethicists and sociologists who support large-scale genetic and neurological engineering of ourselves.
This is the newest chapter in evolution as a result of accelerating developments in the fields of genomics, stem-cell research, genetic enhancements, germ-line engineering, artificial intelligence, nanotechnology, robotics, etc.etc.
This cutting edge science has begun to intersect religion and ask the question of what it means to be human.
Just wondered if you were familiar with this man and his work, and what you thought of it.
Also, reading about the man and his work made me wonder if the President -elect could be a
transhuman, lol.
Going back to the website that Dorothy directed us to, and which is on Nikki's reading list, is a weird article and astronomical chart for Obama. I didn't read the astrology junk but this part caught my attention:
" I saw this program with an old friend at her home in Victoria, BC. I sat with her in her living room watching the show because she invited me to and was anxious to hear my response to him. You can imagine how uncomfortable I was when the interview ended and I had to tell her how "something" about him disturbed me, that I did not feel he actually was the person he was presenting to be. I had virtually NO logical reasons or clear evidence for my feeling/judgment ... but that judgment just kept building toward the negative as he continued to speak into the second hour of his interview. So I told her about my deep misgivings concerning him. She listened, as she usually does, quite sincerely and calmly.
But she had a book he'd written entitled, I think, "Dreams From My Father" and as I left she loaned it to me to read urging that if I did so maybe I'd see what a fine man he is. Well, the book like the TV persona he projected was quite literate, well-written (in a certain composite literary style hard to explain) and after reading the first 30 pages or so in strict sequence I felt this oppressive "atmosphere" surrounding me, -so I shifted gears and began jumping around here and there throughout the remaining text. I'd spend time after each "jump" reading maybe another 2-5 pages in sequence before that same "atmosphere" would again surround me like an amorphous dark cloud. I do not think Barack Obama actually writes these books ... which suddenly (during that year and next) seemed to appear in a hurry ... I think there's an "Obama Factory" of ghost writers on hand who create these books with his approval and help.
There is really only this highly crafted "composite" voice speaking in his texts ... it reminds me of texts like "Conversations With God" .... or like "A Course In Miracles" and similar mind control related, CIA infected crap (sometimes called 'channelling') issued by the likes of Deepak Chopra and J.Z. Knight via entities such as "Ramtha". Except that Obama's books are far more polished in their literary style."
********************************
Anyhow, I'm not into astrology of course, but that part of the article caught my attention, because I'd had the exact same reaction, when I'd read "Dreams of My Father".
I also wrote about it in my blog, as some of you may remember, under the title, "Dreams of My Father or a Mother's Nightmare?"
Anyhow, here's the link to the article:
http://www.starpathvisions.com/Barack%20Obama's%20Astrological%20Birth%20Chart.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/7dfshw
The link was taken from this website, which I referenced above.
http://tinyurl.com/83vuy7
Just one other small detail regarding the weird Share International Christmas miracle story...
I posted pictures last night in my blog of the planet Venus appearing in a daylight sky. I just read that Venus has been called "The Morning Star of the Evening", so some consider it a star, as well as a planet.
Interestingly, I was reading on Wikipedia that:
"Much of Venus's surface appears to have been shaped by volcanic activity. Overall, Venus has several times as many volcanoes as Earth, and it possesses some 167 giant volcanoes that are over 100 km across. The only volcanic complex of this size on Earth is the Big Island of Hawaii."
Okay, so we know the following:
Obama was born on the island of Hawaii. With the type of technology that Dr. Hughes is involved with it's remotely possible to consider that he could be some sort of transhuman experiment, (the Book of Enoch comes to mind once again, but I won't get into that here). The sun comes into Aquarius on January 20th- Inauguration Day!
Was Venus the sign in the sky that Share International was referring to? If so, Maitreya should appear on a major TV show within a week. Guess what?
Larry King is doing a show on the Obamas Saturday and Sunday night at 8:00.
One more coincidence- Obama was in Nairobi, Kenya the summer that Maitreya appeared.
I'm hoping this comment is weird enough to change the current topic for a while!
Cheers,
Maryanne
Bobby said: "...Novak makes his own argument. Go read it if your curious."
I have read it, and find it faulty. I certainly would not have it as an "Information Resource" on my blog, if I had one. But maybe that's just me. lol Carry on then...
~HM
From the Brussels Journal. Excuse me if this has already been linked. Disturbing trend...
Spain’s Jewish Problem
Interesting; something I didn't know - from the article...
But just as Spaniards get smug about their perceived racial superiority, along comes a new study which implies that many Spanish anti-Semites actually have Jewish blood. An examination of the genetic signatures of the Spanish population shows that 20 percent of contemporary Spaniards have Jewish origins. As it turns out, far more Jews than previously thought did not comply with the order to leave Spain back in 1492 and simply converted to Catholicism instead.
Many of those conversos tried to blend in by adopting surnames that indicated trades or professions. One such Sephardic name is Zapatero, which means shoemaker.
Sorry Bobby,
It's not in there. It doesn't exist. It's a myth like Bigfoot.
David in B.C.
Joyce 2:52am
Thanks for the book reccomendation and all the time and care you put into your replys.
Maryanne / YG 5:43pm
I went to your blog last night, and I loved the pics of the sunset and venus. We missed it here due to cloudy weather.
This is interresting. Thanks for putting all the pieces together.
Did anyone notice the story about the new crystal ball for Times Square?
http://www.time.com/time/
nation/article/0,8599,1869058,00.html
But the biggest overhaul was saved for the ball that would ring in the new millenium. Plumping up to 1,070 pounds, the massive new ball touted handcrafted Waterford crystal triangles, each with a design symbolizing various messages such as "Hope for Fellowship," "Hope for Wisdom" and "Hope for Abundance." With minor tweaks, that sphere remained through the 2007 fiesta.
This year's ball tops out at 12 feet in diameter (double the size of previous balls) and weighs 11,875 pounds; it sparkles with 32,256 LED lights and 2,668 crystals.
Triangle shaped chrystals...
Mac 6:07pm Just the title is frightening, hateful, and omminous.
Young Grasshopper:
Transhumanism is part Trastopianism.
I have all the information available from HERE.
Zapatero: “It is understandable that someone might justify the Holocaust.”
This is the first time I've heard that he said that. Whoa!
Ok, I'm a newbie here, so let me know if I have this straight (still sorting pieces of this puzzle). Spain will be the EU Presidency Holder in Jan-Jun 2010, and Zapatero's term expires in 2012. Could that be a concern?
Thanks in advance for any help,
~HM
David in BC:
"Since Jesus Christ freed us from the Law of Moses, we are no longer under Law. Unless the Zionists get their way and enslave us and exact blood sacrifices from us again."
This is all looking forward to what might happen. Nothing was stated or implied about your high school history. Although the history of blood sacrifice is well documented in ancient Israel.
Some of my pre school grandchildren could figure this out.
You weren't one of those high school grads who flunked remedial reading are you?
After reading the article it occurred to me that this is allot like Hitler...wasn't it said that he was part Jewish? and yet was so very antiSemitic.
That with Historymakers timeline, wow.
Suzette
9 Steps to Peace for Obama in the New Year by Deepak Chopra
http://www.alternet.org/
environment/116640/9_steps_to_peace_for_obama
_in_the_new_year/
The following is a memo to Barack Obama from Deepak Chopra
You have been elected by the first anti-war constituency since 1952, when Dwight D. Eisenhower was elected after promising to end the Korean War. But ending a war isn't the same as bringing peace. America has been on a war footing since the day after Pearl Harbor, 67 years ago. We spend more on our military than the next 16 countries combined. If you have a vision of change that goes to the heart of this country's deep problems, ending our dependence on war is far more important than ending our dependency on foreign oil.
The most immediate changes are economic. Unless it can make as much money as war, peace doesn't stand a chance. Since aerospace and military technologies remain the United States' most destructive export, fostering wars around the world, what steps can we take to reverse that trend and build a peace-based economy?
1. Scale out arms dealing and make it illegal by the year 2020.
2. Write into every defense contract a requirement for a peacetime project.
3. Subsidize conversion of military companies to peaceful uses with tax incentives and direct funding.
4. Convert military bases to housing for the poor.
5. Phase out all foreign military bases.
6. Require military personnel to devote part of their time to rebuilding infrastructure.
7. Call a moratorium on future weapons technologies.
8. Reduce armaments like destroyers and submarines that have no use against terrorism and were intended to defend against a superpower enemy that no longer exists.
9. Fully fund social services and take the balance out of the defense and homeland security budgets.
These are just the beginning. We don't lack creativity in coping with change. Without a conversion of our present war economy to a peace economy, the high profits of the military-industrial complex ensures that it will never end.
Do these nine steps seem unrealistic or fanciful? In various ways, other countries have adopted similar measures. The former Soviet army is occupied with farming and other peaceful work, for example. But comparisons are rather pointless, since only the United States is burdened with such a massive reliance on defense spending. Ultimately, empire follows the dollar. As a society, we want peace, and we want to be seen as a nation that promotes peace. For either ideal to come true, you as president must back up your vision of change with economic reality. So far, that hasn't happened under any of your predecessors. All hopes are pinned on you.
Bobby,
Although I think you are rude and condescending, I must agree that I agree with your theory, that Trastopianism/Transhumanism is the fourth phase of the dialect.
According to this website:
http://www.transtopia.org/symbolism.html
" 'transhumanism' is the belief that we can, and should, try to overcome our biological limitations by means of reason, science, and technology. Transhumanists seek things like intelligence augmentation, increased strength and beauty, extreme life extension, sustainable mood enhancement, and the capability to get off-planet and explore the universe. These goals are to be achieved with the aid of contemporary and future technologies such as genetic engineering, nanotechnology, cryonics, megascale and space-time engineering, AI, and mind uploading. In other words, (hardcore) Transhumanists seek to become posthuman (demi-)gods -- "persons of unprecedented physical, intellectual, and psychological capacity. Self-programming, self-constituting, potentially immortal, unlimited individuals." Singularity. "
Also interesting is that Dr. James Hughes, a former Buddhist monk, and proponent of a Third Way, also works at conflict resolution at Sarvodaya in Sri Lanka. This fits with what you said in part 2 of the break down of the dialectic process:
"2.The synthesis as a problem resolution period associated with the New Age/Communitarian/Third Way consensus."
Although I was half joking about Obama being a transhuman, I may have unwittingly stumbled upon something. Frighteningly, this type of technology could also account for a recovery from a "mortal head wound", since the person isn't exactly human.
I would recommend that people read the link that Bobby addressed to me at 6:39. Also be sure to Google Dr. James Hughes. This man is very frightening! You can get more info here as well, and see a "fractalized" image of him at this link:
http://www.changesurfer.com/Hughes.html
Also,
At the bottom of the Transhumanism /Trastopianism link is this quote:
* Ancient Mysteries and Rosicrucian leader Sir Francis Bacon "was informed by his guiding spirits that the kingdom that would produce the coming "Masonic Messiah," (the "Masonic Christ" who will lead the world into a new era they called the "Ancient Order of the Ages") would be an English speaking nation but not Great Britain. Rather, it would be a great nation that would arise out of the New World colonies and Queen Elizabeth and her counselors must perforce do everything in their power to bring this nation to birth."
Interesting quote, as regards the Obama phenomenon.
Bobby,
I noticed that you just discovered The Consensus Party in the UK. You may want to take a look at this one as well as I think it is much more important to your work:
http://www.meritocracy.org.uk/
The people behind this party also wrote "The Armageddon Conspiracy". They claim to be high -ranking members of the Illuminati. In my opinion they are part of the larger conspiracy I have spoken about.
By the way, Plato's concept of the ideal government presented in his Republic (see The Republic (Plato)) is innately meritocratic.
One more thing:
Be sure to read the link on Hegel:
http://www.meritocracy.org.uk/page37.htm
All,
WARNING
Just want to warn everyone that the link I gave Bobby to the meritocracy site is far worse than the anti-semitic links that have been flying around here lately. Please read the stuff on that site at your own risk. It's very evil, as it's rooted in the worst forms of Gnosticsm imaginable.
Chopra left off his list to Obama,
10. beat your swords into plowshares.
Best to you all for the New Year,
Leana
Hi Suzette:
The book THE TWISTED CROSS, if we are referring to the same one, was by Joseph Carr who was a dear friend. I first met Joe and his wife when I spoke in Virginia in 1982 and they stayed in touch with me thereafter. I believe Joe is now dead, but his brilliant work lives on. The book is an excellent resource and if people can find it, I highly recommend it.
Constance
Bobby,
I think you and Nikki are very smart and have put together some very good information. However,the main reason that I think you should take a look at this site is because I think these meritocracy people are intrinsically demonic. Without elaborating any further on that statement, I think that sites that put all blame on the Jews, as being the root behind everything from Gnosticism to heresy in the church, are neglecting to identify the real enemy.
I hope no one here, will read "The Armageddon Conspiracy" nor go to their website or spend time at the meritocracy UK website either. It's a total MIND PLUCK, if you know what I mean. But I wanted to bring this subject up again since I feel strongly that some of the blame that Bobby and Nikki and others are attributing to Jews is wrong and very dangerous.
Hope I am making sense.
Joyce, out of fairness, I think on the whole the Catholic Church has done an excellent job of affirming Jesus and his true role. They have had accretions and serious bouts of apostasy -- just as I don't think some of the attacks on you were fair, although God knows you and I have our differences, I don't think some of your dismissals of Catholic orthodox theology as contained in the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed can be accurately called "putting God in a box." If that is a "box," it sounds to me like the box the Lord himself constructed.
Constance
To Young Grasshopper:
A most excellent post on transhumanism and its increasingly obvious danger (probably not to mention that future mandating taking the mark will be posited as a transhuman advance as well as commerce facilitation).
Thanks and Happy New Year to you!
Constance
Witnesses report massacre at Congo church
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/
servlet/story/RTGAM.20081229.
wcongo1229/BNStory/International/
?page=rss&id=RTGAM.20081229.wcongo1229
GODFREY OLUKYA
Associated Press
December 29, 2008 at 12:40 PM EST
This stuff is evil. Please pray for these people.
Constance
Hello. I just got yours - The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow in this week. I will have to look for the Twisted Cross. Sounds like one for the library. With so many books to read I might have to become, what is that, transhumanist, so I can keep up! NOT!
Leane, good one. :)
Suzette
Correction - Leana,
Sorry I should have spelled your name right.
Suzette
Dear Mac:
I just pulled down the Brussels item you cited on Spanish anti-Semitism. Considering that Javier Solana is from Spain and may well harbor those attitudes, this may well be a very bleak indicator of where global governance in general and the EU in particular are headed.
Constance
To Susanna:
I read your excellent post on Hans Kung, Arian heresies, translations as interpretations with great interest. Well thought out and expressed. Thanks!
Constance
Joyce,
Do I understand you to be denying the Trinity as a "false doctrine."
Please explain. The Trinity in my opinion is a most biblical doctrine -- as Jesus said -- baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Constance
To Suzette (9:09 PM):
If you don't read another book right now, I would strongly urge you to read "The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow" ASAP -- as all of the pieces of the global puzzle will make more sense and will provide you with the spiritual "tools" that you will need for these coming dark times ahead.
Joyce, the book THE TWISTED CROSS I referred to was about Nazism and the New Age Movement. Are we talking about the same book?
Constance
To Joyce:
I've seen so many similarities between Catholic services I've observed and Jewish ones that to say the Catholic Church divorced itself from Jewish roots is hardly fair or accurate. I've had Jewish friends tell me they visited Catholic services and thought they were in one large synagogue.
Constance
I am paying attention to Niki Raapana's work because I know through my own research of the role it plays in global governance circles. That she has conclusions I and many of you disagree with does not invalidate her research -- she stumbled onto it in Seattle and started researching it. She has some important pieces of the puzzle. Take her wheat, leave the chaff, and let's have intelligent discussions on it -- not just shoot from the hip or want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day!
Constance
To Susette (5:29 PM):
Here are the basics of the doctrine of the Trinity:
1. In the one divine nature, there are three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
2. No one of the persons is either of the others, each is wholly himself.
3. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
4. They are not three Gods but one God.
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’" (Ex 3:14).
Although the Trinity is a mystery that we are obviously not meant to fully comprehend, God has given each of us the free will to choose to accept it based on faith and supported by Scripture.
Constance,
I feel I should step up to the plate and say that it may have been a comment by me that started the arguement about the Trinity that brought out so much hostility and the subsequent posting by Joyce that many take as anti-Catholic. I was asking for some input and clarification on the Trinity doctrine as I personally find it confusing. I know of Christian denominations that teach Jesus as the ONLY son of God, the only Savior and yet say He was/is not God himself, but rather that the "oneness" described is rather that of being in complete agreement with and obedience to God The Father. This does not go against the scriptures, well at least some, but clearly there were very good scriptural points made here to support Jesus being God Himself. Although to be honest some of them only reinforced the idea that He was God's Son and not God himself. This doctrine doesn't negate that Christ was preexistant, created the world, is God's only begotten Son, is the only Messiah or the existance of the Holy Spirit (but rather teached the Holy Spirit as the active force of God rather than a separate but equal personage - I have an earlier post on this question particularly). I am essentially still confused but have allot of scriptural references (and that is my ONLY basis for truth in all the world, if that is not our basis for truth I don't know what can otherwise be.) I don't care, in the sense that it doesn't negate my faith either way, this is just an issue that has perplexed me for some time. I have prayed for discernment of the truth many times but I am honestly still confused. I appreciate all the comments and references that were provided in the blog and they will no doubt provide me with a point of reference with which to study.
I feel I must be completely honest as Joyce may be bearing the brunt of a conversation I started. That's not fair and I can't feel good ignoring it. I stated that I was unclear of the Trinity doctrine and since it has come from the Catholic Church, it makes me even more suspect. In all honesty, I find Susannah to be very scripturally knowledgable, very passionate, and her posts are thought provoking and intelligent; however, I for what I see as basic Biblical reasons, do not agree with the Catholic CHURCH in general and therefore would probably have to be put into the category with Joyce, apparently deemed a Catholic-basher as some have suggested on this blog. Although that is not my intention, and I doubt anyone here really believes that is Joyce's intention either. I have a suspicion that Mary worship will play a part in the unification of the religions but have been reluctant to post information concerning this fearing the worst.
Since this blog is to try to guard ourselves, our loved ones, our world, from the New Age movement (= false doctrine), it is natural that persons with opposing religious viewpoints will see others in the community as having false doctrine. I don't think it is anyone's goal to keep the UNITY of this blog COMMUNITY intact to the point of compromising our own basic beliefs. We would in that event, become what we have come here to rail against. I question my own religious upbringing, the church I am now attending and all religious teachings and dogma that I have every been exposed to. My faith isn't in doubt, I am just searching for the absolute truth, wherever and whatever that may mean, no matter how painful the things I discover or what I must let go of. I've already had to take a good hard look at my life and what I thought was the truth about God, how He wanted me to worship Him, what was acceptable behavior, what were the lines I couldn't cross. I've found that my lines are quite often not in the same place where God drew them in The Holy Scriptures.
Although it would be nice if we could all keep it to a doctrinal issue and not a personal one. There are certainly some very immature posters here who cannot even use their names, who hurl childlike insults at whomever they choose. I guess they are best ignored.
Sorry if I opened a can of worms and created another source for bickering. I also want to say that I am not anti-person of any kind. Doctrine is the product of religion and should not be confused with people. I think the passionate way most everyone here contributes and states their faith and defends it shows how very much we are committed to God. The world could take a good lesson of us, albeit we should do it in a less accusatory and offensive manner as that is one of main arguements against fundamentalism that they are using as an excuse to abolish us.
Sincerely
Suzette
Hi Constance,
Thank you for your kind words.
By the way, I have read THE TWISTED CROSS by Joseph Carr and think it is an excellent book. In fact, I am planning on rereading it very soon.
To Susette (10:00 PM):
Just to clarify . . .
1) The Trinity is a mystery of faith that we are not MEANT to understand. We each have been given the free will to CHOOSE to accept it based on faith and supported by Scripture.
2) FYI: Catholics do not now, nor have EVER "worshiped" Mary. We HONOR her as the Mother of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God, our Father in Heaven, is the One who chose to make her special among all women.
Young Grasshopper:
Thanks for the link to the The Meritocracy Party. I will check it out. I noticed that you restated your idea that Niki and I blame the Jews.
I want everyone to pay attention here...IT IS NOT THE JEWS!
The source of the problem lies very deep within the upper ranks of the secret societies. These people are thoroughly demon possessed, and they are pure evil. They get their information from channeled sources. the names of which are familiar to you. They are of the Pharisaic tradition the same as in Jesus' day. Their evil however, comes through organizations public and private where they hold top position of power. The people are pawns in their hands because they are the masters of deception.
The quote you found about Sir Francis Bacon's "vision", is a significant key to their identity. You really have to study this yourself. I have provided the tools. Use the search tool on my home page, because it will return each and every page where a search term appears. Neither Google or Yahoo can do that because they are selective in their indexing operations. Freefind has indexed 329 pages at congregator.net. Google about half and Yahoo about two thirds. It took years for me to figure all this out, and I'm trying to make it easier for others.
I noticed that you think I'm rude and condescending, and I want you to know that I'm not offended. You are not the first to point that out, but once you get to know me I'm a soft spoken gentle old man. I've experienced a lot, and getting to an age where I need to pass that on if possible. The situation is very urgent, but we don't need to panic.
You will progress much faster if you get over your fear. A Christian has no cause to be fearful. When we confront the evil and look it in the eyes, it cowers back in a corner and will not harm you. In fact if God recognizes you as belonging to him, it has no power over you. I cannot really tell you what it looks like, but everyone needs to see it for themselves. Learning is far more effective when the eyes and hands are coordinating and focusing on the subject.
I have a short fuse for stupidity, and we've seen some of that, but I can answer questions as I have been, however I cannot spell out every detail as some seem to expect. I'm not a preacher, and I'm not selling anything, and I do this at my own expense. Your recent discoveries, and the way you went about it are a fine example of how its supposed to work.
http://www.catholic.org/
bible/book.php?id=2
Exodus 20 New Jerusalem Bible
1 Then God spoke all these words. He said,
2 'I am Yahweh your God who brought you out of Egypt, where you lived as slaves.
3 'You shall have no other gods to rival me.
4 'You shall not make yourself a carved image
or any likeness of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth.
5 'You shall not bow down to them or serve them.
For I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God and I punish a parent's fault in the children, the grandchildren, and the great-grandchildren among those who hate me;
KJV 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
graven image
Noun
Chiefly Bible a carved image used as an idol
http://www.thefreedictionary.com
/graven+image
http://www.catholic.org/
bible/book.php?id=2
New Jerusalem Bible Matthew 23
9 You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/texts/koran
/koran019.htm
Koran sura 19: Mary
16 And mention, in the Book, Mary; when she retired from her family into an eastern place; 17 and she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; and we sent unto her our spirit; and he took for her the semblance of a well-made man. 18 Said she, ‘Verily, I take refuge in the Merciful One from thee, if thou art pious.’ 19 Said he, ‘I am only a messenger of thy Lord to bestow on thee a pure boy.’ 20 Said she, ‘How can I have a boy when no man has touched me, and when I am no harlot?’ 21 He said, ‘Thus says thy Lord, It is easy for Me! and we will make him a sign unto man, and a mercy from us; for it is a decided matter.’
22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him into a remote place. 23 And the labour pains came upon her at the trunk of a palm tree, and she said, ‘O that I had died before this, and been forgotten out of mind!’ 24 and he called to her from beneath her ‘Grieve not, for thy Lord has placed a stream beneath thy feet, 25 and shake towards thee the trunk of the palm tree, it will drop upon thee fresh dates fit to gather; 26 so eat, and drink, and cheer thine eye; and if thou shouldst see any mortal say, 27 "Verily, I have vowed to the Merciful One a fast, and I will not speak to-day with a human being."’ 28 Then she brought it to her people, carrying it; said they, ‘O Mary! thou hast done an extraordinary thing! O sister of Aaron! 29 Thy father was not a bad man, nor was thy mother a harlot!’ 30 And she pointed to him, and they said, ‘How are we to speak with one who is in the cradle a child?’ 31 He said, ‘Verily, I am a servant of God; He has brought me the Book, and He has made me a prophet, 32 and He has made me blessed wherever I be; and He has required of me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live, 33 and piety towards my mother, and has not made me a miserable tyrant; 34 and peace upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised up alive.’ 35 That is, Jesus the son of Mary,-by the word of truth whereon ye do dispute!
Suzette,
Re:I feel I should step up to the plate and say that it may have been a comment by me that started the arguement about the Trinity
I am not going to get into a rehash, but I just want to let you know that the debate here on the Trinity had absolutely NOTHING to do with you or any comment you made.
Moreover, I would never regard you or anyone else as a "Catholic-basher" for merely disagreeing with me respectfully and explaining your reasons why - the key word here being "respectfully."
Also, if a non-Catholic Christian is going to disagree with me about a matter of religion, he/she should make sure that the thing he/she disagrees with is something the
Catholic Chrch actually does teach and not something he/she assumes or imagines the Catholic Church teaches.
For example, Catholics do not "worship Mary." I am not accusing you of being a bigot, but "Mary worship" is a favorite false accusation against Catholics by bigots and by those who are merely ignorant of what the Catholic church teaches.
By the way, the doctrine of the Trinity is not an exclusively Catholic doctrine. It is a central dogma of Christian theology and is embraced by most mainstream Protestants as well as Catholics.
The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God exists as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases, but is one being.[1][2] In other words he is the Triune God. The persons are understood to exist as God the Father, God the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, each of them having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures. Since the beginning of the third century[3] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."[4] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church describes the Trinity as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Be careful, Susette (10:18 PM):
Remember when you decide to make false insinuations about Catholics making "graven images" . . .
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." (Exodus 20:16)
Hi Bobby Garner,
Re:The source of the problem lies very deep within the upper ranks of the secret societies.
I tend to agree with you. Have you ever read BLOOD UPON THE ALTAR by Craig Heimbichner?
Correction:
"Be careful, Susette (10:38 PM):"
To Susanna (10:57 PM):
Thank you for being the voice of sanity and reason on this blog!!!
;~)
Suzette,
Re:This does not go against the scriptures, well at least some, but clearly there were very good scriptural points made here to support Jesus being God Himself.
Jesus is "the Word made flesh." He is God the Son, second Person of the Blessed Trinity and is both truly God and truly man.
The miracle that Jesus performed to prove that He is God was the Resurrection from the dead.
We as Christians must never forget that Christ's Resurrection is a HISTORICAL FACT. It is so important that St. Paul went as far as to say that if the Resurrection were not a historical fact then we Christians are above all men to be pitied.
This is why Creeds are important as an antidote to confusion about what we are supposed to believe as Christians.
If you go back to my post here entitled TRINITY, you will see that I posted the Chalcedonian Creed and the Nicene Creed, both of which are accepted by most mainstream Protestants as well as Catholics and Orthodox. these are the rock bottom doctrines that we need to believe as authentic Christians.
Hi Anonymous 11:14 P.M.,
Thank you for your kind words.
Happy New Year!
Wishing a most happy and holy New Year to you too, Susanna . . . and to everyone else on Constance's blog!!!
Susanna,
Hi. I felt guilty for having asked about it. I must be completely honest here because I feel it is the only way to fully understand all this and not get into a hassle.
I grew up Baptist, being taught that the Catholic Church will be the church of the antiChrist / end times. As I got older and grew away from my Baptist teachings I began to think how pig-headed that was. But as I study the Scriptures more and more I see that there is indeed several points of scripture that disagree with the doctine put forth by the Catholic church. However, not being a Catholic, my information is only of those who are Catholic (friends, family members etc.) and not from my personal experience. That means I can be totally wrong about what I THINK is actually practiced. I don't agree with many of the doctrines of mainstream Christianity, no matter what branch they are. If it's popular or comfortable, it's probably false. Jesus wasn't popular and His truths weren't confirmed by a majority vote or the fact that the masses (no pun intended) accepted it. Most of what He taught was rejected and ridiculed. Wide is the path that leads to destruction, narrow is the path that leads to life....
It's a very good eye opener for me to get the practices and teachings of current Catholicism from someone who is actually practicing. That is factual information. I found it just as beneficial to learn of some of the teachings of Islam from my friend who is a Muslim. I believed so many things that were purported by the media and learned for instance, that she (her "denomination" for lack of a better word) doesn't consider Shiite to be true Islam. Kind of how Christians view different denom. as not really being Christians. They think of Jesus as only a prophet, not the son of God but believe that all people of the Abrahamic faiths go to heaven. She said they also teach a tolerance for homosexuality because they believe that God made them that way (if I remember right). I don't agree with Islam but I find it fascinating and curious that they have some similar teachings as Christianity. They also use prayer beads as do Hindus and Buddhists. Protestants do not use prayer beads, but I believe Catholics still do (the Rosary)?
I am glad to learn the truth of your beliefs, however I will say this in as loving a way as possible, statues that are prayed to, touched in order to receive blessing from or otherwise revered is idolotry. There is no other way to view that practice. If the church has stopped using statues of Mary and bowing before them and touching them etc then I will update my view that the Catholic church practices idolotry by it's physical representations of Mary that they revere so much. Do not thousands or millions of Catholics all over the world make pilgrimages to Fatima and Lourdes to see the miraculous wonders of the Mary's there? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Susannah, you obviously have a heart for God, is it possible He has called for you to be "called out"? I am myself considering leaving the church I have been attending because they appear to be heading down the New Age road (alpha course and all that). Not to mention I have heard several remarks about the Assemblies of God with regards to the NAM and am hoping someone will give me some specifics on that so I can make an informed and accurate assessment of their true nature. I am new to that denomination.
May we all find the truth and fight the evil in this world.
In His love
Suzette
Hi Constance,
Happy New Year by the way.
I am on the run now, so I can't answer you in depth, but I don't think the trinity is a doctrine that squares with Torah. Since Torah is the foundation, that needs to be examined more carefully.
Yeshua and HIs disciples never ever used this expression so I don't see any reason why I should. I do believe that God can manifest Himself anyway He so choses, and still be one, so the deity of Yeshua is not in question here. I would never use the expression trinity to describe who God is...and He doesn't either. It's stretching the texts of Scripture..
As for Catholicism, I believe it immediately tore out the Hebrew roots of the faith and history proves this. Many people are understanding this today.
The Reformation had martyrs who were burned at the stake for holding to truth, so what I want to know is how come today the Catholics and Evangelicals can so easily join together. It's not only the Emergent Church that is promoting this unity.
To the person who complained that it's not the subject of the blog, with my respect I beg to differ. It's a huge subject and unless we are willing to look at the roots of this problem the churches will slip further and further into apostasy.. I suppose that will happen anyway, because Scripture says it will.
The Catholic Church made a "religion" that would be unrecognizable to the people that they claim it is based on. Catholics do confess Jesus, but He is not the same one that I read about in the Scriptures. They do believe in His death and resurrection, but have added much to that which we cannot even come close to identifying in the Scriptures upon a careful reading.
I've been studying the Bible for many years and am hard pressed to find the doctrines of Catholicism in the Scriptures that I read, which leads me to believe that the founders created a "new religion". God never asked us to do this.
As I said, there is much that I can say about how this relates to what is going on with the Emerging Church and the Ecumenic movement, but don't have the time.. forgive me.
I will tie it back to the subject of the blog for those who are wondering...
Joyce
I have NEVER questioned the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I only asked for some input on the Trinity doctrine, clearly stating that the teaching I heard was that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.
Obviously, this is an issue that is not 100% accepted as theologians have debated this at length and all do not agree. Most agree, not all.
I will continue to pray about this, read over the SCRIPTURAL references mentioned and believe that God and Jesus through the Holy Spirit will lay the truth in my heart without doubt.
I believe, God The Father, the Creator, the God of Abraham, gave His only begotten Son, Jesus Yeshua the Christ, The Messiah, the ONLY Messiah, who was born of a virgin, Mary, lived as a man and was crucified, took on sin, all sin of the entire world, all before and all going forward, in order to give us everlasting life, was burried, rose on the 3rd day (the real Jonah timeline, not the one practiced by Easter), and appeared to many then ascended to Heaven to sit at the right hand of The Father until He will return in THE CLOUDS, the same way He left, when the First Resurrection will occur and will usher in the Millenial Reign of Christ.
I believe all the stories of the Bible, the parting of the Red, Sea, water from a rock, manna from heaven, the burning bush, Noah and the Ark, every last bit. It's the Trinity I am confused on. But God will be faithful, I have asked for and sought truth, I have knocked and He WILL open the door.
Suzette
BTW My neighbor has a ceramic statue of Mary in her yard.
Maybe this has been seen before here or is irrelevant, but I thought it was a strange site:
http://www.the7thfire.com/index2.htm
I first came across this page of it
http://www.the7thfire.com/earthchanges/last_days_of_the_earth.htm
...while looking into the "existential risk" and "apocalyptic threats" Research Interests of Dr. Hughes that Young Grasshopper mentioned. His Trinity College Faculty Page is here...
http://internet2.trincoll.edu/facProfiles/Default.aspx?fid=1004332
His eyes are kinda freaky-looking.
~HM
Please let me say, that the notion that Jesus was "merely" the only begotten Son of God, and not actually God Himself could absolutely be a doctrine put out by satan himself. I have wondered as much. It got stuck in my head and I can't knock it out with a 2x4. I am not saying He wasn't Deity, or preexistant, or any of the other things attributed to Him, just trying to reconcile the One God, three persons, monotheistic, Trinity issue. It may just be a matter of "faith" and not for me to understand. His ways are not my ways.
Joyce's explanation made the most sense, that He can be whatever form or personage He is/ will be. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, burning bush, whatever He is or wants to be, because He is God.
I ask for your earnest prayers on a complete clarification from God in this matter.
Thank you.
Suzette
Hi Suzette,
Here are a couple of very important things you need to know about the differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant Christianity.
First of all the Roman Catholic Rule of faith is Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Scripture and Sacred tradition are inseparable from one another. Scripture is the written part of Sacred Tradition - the other part being the oral Word which is not in the Bible but cannot contradict it.
For Protestants, the rule of Faith is "Sola Scriptura" or the "Bible only" which began with Martin Luther.
Another difference is in the Bibles used by Catholics and Protestants.
The Old Testament canon for Catholics is the Septuagint - the most ancient translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek translated between the 3rd and 1st centuries B.C. in Alexandria. This was the translation of the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament.
The Septuagint was held in great respect in ancient times; Philo and Josephus ascribed divine inspiration to its authors.[4] Besides the Old Latin versions, the LXX is also the basis for the Slavonic, Syro-Hexaplar (but not the Peshitta), Old Armenian, Old Georgian and Coptic versions of the Old Testament.[5] Of significance for all Christians and for Bible scholars, the LXX is quoted by the Christian New Testament and by the Apostolic Fathers. While Jews have not used the LXX in worship or religious study since the second century AD, recent scholarship has brought renewed interest in it in Judaic Studies. Some of the Dead Sea scrolls attest to Hebrew texts other than those on which the Masoretic Text was based; in many cases, these newly found texts accord with the LXX version. The oldest surviving codices of LXX (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) date to the fourth century AD.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint
During the Reformation, Martin Luther substituted the Hebrew Bible for the Septuagint.
Some of the books found in the Septuagint are not included in the Hebrew Bible which was said to have been put together at the Council of Jamnia after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
The term Hebrew Bible is a generic reference to those books of the Bible originally written in Biblical Hebrew (and Biblical Aramaic). The term closely corresponds to contents of the Jewish Tanakh and the Protestant Old Testament (see also Judeo-Christian) but does not include the deuterocanonical portions of the Roman Catholic or the Anagignoskomena portions of the Eastern Orthodox Old Testaments. The term does not imply naming, numbering or ordering of books, which varies, see also Biblical canon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible
Here is some information on the Council of Jamnia.
Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. Nevertheless, the outcomes attributed to the Council of Jamnia did occur whether gradually or in a definitive, authoritative council. Several concerns of the remaining Jewish communities in Israel would have been the loss of the national language, the growing problem of conversions to Christianity, based in part on Christian promises of life after death. What emerged from this era was twofold:
A rejection of the Septuagint or Koine Greek Old Testament widely then in use in Hellenistic Judaism along with its additional books not part of the Biblical Hebrew/Biblical Aramaic Masoretic Text.
The inclusion of a curse on the "Minim" which probably included Jewish Christians (Birkat ha-Minim). According to the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Min: "In passages referring to the Christian period, "minim" usually indicates the Judæo-Christians, the Gnostics, and the Nazarenes, who often conversed with the Rabbis on the unity of God, creation, resurrection, and similar subjects (comp. Sanh. 39b). In some passages, indeed, it is used even for "Christian"; but it is possible that in such cases it is a substitution for the word "Noẓeri," which was the usual term for 'Christian'... On the invitation of Gamaliel II., Samuel ha-Ḳaṭan composed a prayer against the minim which was inserted in the "Eighteen Benedictions"; it is called "Birkat ha-Minim" and forms the twelfth benediction; but instead of the original "Noẓerim" ... the present text has "wela-malshinim" (="and to the informers"). The cause of this change in the text was probably, the accusation brought by the Church Fathers against the Jews of cursing all the Christians under the name of the Nazarenes."
Sociologically, these developments achieved two important ends, namely, the preservation of the Hebrew language at least for religious use (even among the diaspora) and possibly the final separation and distinction between the Jewish and Christian communities, though the separation is more complex than just a single event, see also List of events in early Christianity. (Through nearly the end of the first century, Christians of Jewish descent continued to pray in synagogues.) But see also John Chrysostom#Sermons on Jews and Judaizing Christians, dated 386-387.
Some of the books not admitted into the Hebrew canon, such as Wisdom and 2 Maccabees, gave the only textual support for the common first century Jewish belief in the after-life.[citation needed] The martyrs' prayers for the dead and the living praying and offering sacrifices for the dead motivated Martin Luther to reject these books as apocryphal because they supported Catholic doctrine and practice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia
Wikipedia is not the very best source, but I am using it with a view to being unbiased in the information I am sharing with you.
I think I will let you digest this for now. As you can see, I didn't get into any polemics over who was right and who was wrong.
My intention was to simply give you some objective factual information so that you could make your own free and fully informed choices about your beliefs.
By the way, I do not believe that God has called for me to be "called out." I believe that God has called me to "bloom where I have been planted."
Susanna-
Are you familiar with Dr. Ray Guarendi? I am not Catholic (am non-denominational), but I enjoy listening to him on Ave Maria radio and have a couple of his books and a DVD on child-rearing. I've heard him mention a DVD series he has with a priest called "What Catholics Really Believe." I've considered getting it, just to be more educated about the Catholic faith. Have you heard of it?
Thanks,
~HM
Bobby,
Thanks for your comment. I probably understand more than you think I do.
I have also sided with Joyce and Rudi in that I believe that mysticism in the Talmud and Kabbalah are dangerous.
That being said I know that Satan is a great deceiver. If you go to the sites and even read the book that I mentioned in my past comments to you, you will discover depths of deception that will make your mind swim. I do firmly believe that the top levels of the secret societies (FreeMasons, Illuminati and Mystery Cults)are behind the deception. One thing that bothered me about the Gnosticliberation.com website, that Nikki linked to, was that it placed blame for Gnosticism totally on Jews and Jews posing as Christians. My own research has led me to believe that Gnosticism originated from the Mystery Cult of Mithra, which was a mystery cult of non-semitic peoples out of Persia. They were descendants of Esau the Edomite. If I am correct, then they would certainly have a motive for blaming the spread of Gnosticism on the Jews!
I know the difference between Jews and Zionism, but Zionism is a quick easy little package in which to label many different people. And that's where it gets sticky.
Was Hitler part Jew? From what I read he was. But more than a Jew, he was one those sick people that were involved in mysticism,alchemy and sorcery, to an extent that he had no problems carrying on experiments on his own people! He was demonic, not Jewish! He was influenced by Blavatsky's teachings and Bailey's teachings, which worshiped Lucifer and seek enlightenment and becoming as Gods to avoid death.
I have read that Hitler's real intent was not world domination (though that was part of it), but rather in altering the genetic code to eventually eliminate humanity. We have all seen horrible pictures of the experiments that he carried out on his own people, and that would indicate that this is true. The book, The Armageddon Conspiracy seems to corroborate this as well, and a similar experiment is conducted in the book, in order to kill the God Of Abraham. They do this in a codified form, in typical Gnostic fashion, using much symbolism.
I'd like to take this one step further and ask you if you have read the Book of Enoch. After I read that book it filled in many blanks that had formerly confused me when reading the Bible.The Book of Jude hints at these things.
I'm too tired to write much more but I think we are on the same page in many areas. I just hate to see good research spoiled because of nuance.
Thanks for your comment and your research.
In the end only Jesus is Love and truth and that's what I am concentrating on to get me through the remainder of this difficult life.
Memo to Joyce (11:45 PM):
Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was the "founder" of the Catholic Church. The following are the words of Jesus as He made Peter the first Pope of His newly formed church:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)
So, everyone - please note:
The clear MESSAGE (from over 2,000 years ago) was that neither Satan nor the Anti-Christ will succeed in destroying the church that Jesus created!!!
Bravo, Susanna!!!
--from a fellow "bloomer"
Suzette,
Re:BTW My neighbor has a ceramic statue of Mary in her yard.
The things we Catholics believe about Mary are not important on account of what they tell us about Mary. They are important because of what they tell us about Jesus.
According to the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, just by freely consenting to be what God made her (Mother of God made man) Mary protects us from the most dangerous "antichrist" heresies that directly attack the Person of her Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Mary's humanity bears witness to Christ's humanity. Mary's virginity bears witness to Christ's divinity.
The way I learned it, according to the Bible, to sever Christ's humanity from His divinity is the "spirit of the antichrist."
Another thing....the statues of Mary are analogous to carrying a photo of a loved one. Sometimes we even kiss photos of loved ones. But at the end of the day, we know better than to think that the photo is anything more than a photo.
I would just like to add one simple thing to Susanna's extremely erudite explanation of the difference between Catholics and Protestants.
For Catholics, salvation is through faith and works.
Martin Luther believed that people did not need the authority and intercession of the church fathers and the sacraments to help them receive salvation. He believed that salvation was by faith alone.
The first time that I realized that I did not have to earn my way to heaven, I felt very relieved. I know I'm a hopeless sinner no matter how hard I try to be good.
I believe that Jesus paid the price for my sins on the cross and that makes me want to love Him, worship Him, and obey his commandments. And simple they are, though hard to obey-based simply on the Golden Rule. So I have chosen to believe that salvation is through faith alone, rather than faith AND works.
I know Susanna is correct in everything else that she has explained, but I also think that the distinction between the concept of how salvation is achieved is worth mentioning as well.
Maryanne
Susanna
Very nice information, and yes will take some time to digest, further reading. I have two copies of The New Jerusalem, one a readers edition and did notice the extra books but haven't read those extra books. They are actually two of my favorite editions as they retain the name Yahweh and the regular version has extensive notes and references.
I agree with the bloom where you're planted idea (if that is where God has told you to be, you definately should stay). I have wondered that in my own church and if I have a role there.
I so appreciate that we could bring this discussion to a calm and reasonable level. Passions do run high whenever religion is concerned. I prefer this type of exchange. There is a wealth of information for us to learn and I probably more than most.
Thanks for you calm reply and information
May Yahweh God bless you and all who are here, and strengthen our relationship to Him.
Suzette
YG/ Maryanne
Yes, I believe in salvation only by faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrafice. Works are nothing more than futile attempts to add to the sacrifice of Christ, which we humans are unable to possibly even come close to doing. "filthy rags..."
But that our love for Him and what He did, compels us to want to do good works, to be known by our fruit.
Suzette
I want to clarify, in case I leave a bad name for Baptists about something they don't teach, that it is not a Baptist teaching that Jesus is not God himself but only the Son of God. They teach the Trinity.
To Maryanne (12:50):
When "Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross" -- that does not mean that all of us have an "automatic insurance policy into Heaven" and that we don't have to work at avoiding sin and remaining in God's grace every single day of our lives!!!
I know some good, well-intentioned Protestant Christians who believe that (for example) they can continue to lie, steal and/or cheat their "neighbor" -- and it doesn't matter - because they are "saved."
Hi Young Grasshopper,
Just for the record, we Catholics define "works" as "faith in action."
Sometime you and I will have to have a discussion on the origins of the "Christian" gnostics.
The founders were neither Christians nor true Jews.
They were the descendants of the Samaritans who had formally defected to the pagan Greek camp during the Maccabeean war of independence against Antiochus IV Epiphanes - generally regarded by the Catholic Church as a type of antichrist.
The two Books of the Maccabees are not found in the Protestant Old Testament canon - unless the Protestant Bible includes what Protestants refer to as the "apocryphal books" of the Old Testament. However, the Books of the Maccabees are included in the Catholic Old Testament canon known as the Septuagint.
By the way, Happy New Year!
Hi HistoryMaker,
To be quite hionest, I am not familiar with Dr. Ray Guarendi and Rev. Kevin Fete or their program "WHAT CATHOLICS REALLY BELIEVE."
Here is their website:
http://www.ninevehscrossing.com/Order-WCRB.html
One source I CAN honestly recommend in terms of giving you facts about what Catholics really believe is the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH which you can read for free online here.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm
Happy New Year!
I find it interesting re: the dogma of the trinity that Jesus did not emphasize it nor did He say belief in it was a requirement of salvation. He said that He was the way of salvation, and that we are to repent and believe the gospel of the Kingdom of God. However, interestingly, men later set themselves up as gatekeepers, saying belief in a trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation, while not emphasizing what Jesus said was necessary, i.e., repentance from breaking God's Law and belief in the coming Kingdom of God.
To Eric (1:14 AM):
Please check my post of 3:14 PM earlier Thursday afternoon -- for all of the Scriptural references to the Trinity.
http://tinyurl.com/p23r
APOSTOLIC LETTER
ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY
AND FAITHFUL
ON THE MOST HOLY ROSARY
In the spiritual journey of the Rosary, based on the constant contemplation – in Mary's company – of the face of Christ, this demanding ideal of being conformed to him is pursued through an association which could be described in terms of friendship. We are thereby enabled to enter naturally into Christ's life and as it were to share his deepest feelings. In this regard Blessed Bartolo Longo has written: “Just as two friends, frequently in each other's company, tend to develop similar habits, so too, by holding familiar converse with Jesus and the Blessed Virgin, by meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary and by living the same life in Holy Communion, we can become, to the extent of our lowliness, similar to them and can learn from these supreme models a life of humility, poverty, hiddenness, patience and perfection”.(18)
In this process of being conformed to Christ in the Rosary, we entrust ourselves in a special way to the maternal care of the Blessed Virgin. She who is both the Mother of Christ and a member of the Church, indeed her “pre-eminent and altogether singular member”,(19) is at the same time the “Mother of the Church”. As such, she continually brings to birth children for the mystical Body of her Son. She does so through her intercession, imploring upon them the inexhaustible outpouring of the Spirit. Mary is the perfect icon of the motherhood of the Church.
The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary's side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us (cf. Gal 4:19). This role of Mary, totally grounded in that of Christ and radically subordinated to it, “in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power”.(20) This is the luminous principle expressed by the Second Vatican Council which I have so powerfully experienced in my own life and have made the basis of my episcopal motto: Totus Tuus.(21) The motto is of course inspired by the teaching of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, who explained in the following words Mary's role in the process of our configuration to Christ: “Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ. Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ”.(22) Never as in the Rosary do the life of Jesus and that of Mary appear so deeply joined. Mary lives only in Christ and for Christ!
Question for Catholics:
Is it not true that rosary devotion is not a faith requirement? One does not have to say a single rosary to be a good Catholic?
Is it not true that one must NEVER genuflect to Mary -- that is reserved to GOD alone?
Wondering how much is 'private devotion' and how much is church mandated?
To Anonymous (8:44 AM):
The Rosary devotion is strictly optional and not a requirement for being a "good" Catholic.
We Catholics genuflect before God alone, because we worship God alone.
For other questions regarding what Catholics believe, Susanna has recommended (and I concur) the following excellent web site:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm
Anonymous 2:49 A.M.
Re:Never as in the Rosary do the life of Jesus and that of Mary appear so deeply joined. Mary lives only in Christ and for Christ!
Exactly!
Moreover, in terms of Mary being purely a CREATURE who "lives only in Christ and for Christ," the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen once described Mary as "God's answer to Lucifer."
Mary's "fiat" ("Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done to me acording to thy word." Luke 1:38) was the beginning of God's judgement against Lucifer's "non serviam!" ( "I will not serve!" ). It was also the beginning of Lucifer's defeat vis a vis the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Lucifer's "non serviam" is spelled out in terms of the five "I wills" of Lucifer found in the Book of Isaias:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the amost High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15
Unlike Lucifer, the Blessed Virgin Mary would be HORRIFIED at the idea of anyone blasphemously giving to her the worship that belongs to God alone!
This quote from Isiah is most important - many "new" versions of the bible have changed - rememeber it well.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the amost High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15
Do any of you here sincerely expect to resolve the conflicts between -
Catholic & Protestant (Or other Christian groups)Jews / Christians - Messianinc Jews,,,ect -ect -???
I mean seriously - it all seems like lessons in vanity to me.
NONE of it edifying.
DouginMI
Maryanne/YG--
I echo that hope!
I used to work part-time in a bookstore and remember seeing Obama's book on the shelves.
I thumbed through it; but never actually read it. We (the employees) were able to take new books home and read them any time we liked, with the caveat that the book had to be returned in exemplary fashion (no evidence of wear).
As I gravitate towards dusty arcane history (but no history is really arcane, it it?) I don't usually pick up autobiographies. Now, I do read biographies; however.
Anyway, saw the BO book ("Dreams of My Father") and was not impressed enough to take it home!
One thing I will attest to, though. That eagle or "WHATEVER" it is on the Obama website creeps my out. I wonder why it only appears for a few seconds and then is pretty much obscured by the loading of the page?
It certainly doesn't inspire patriotism or pride, does it? I think most people's initial reaction (if they could see it more clearly for a longer time) would be: "What it that?!?"
Remarking on your topic of the push toward self-engineeering, I came across a site a while ago about a man who had implanted an RFID chif in his hand (he put in one, and had a licensed doctor implant another one).
Seems he was pretty awed with the ability to open doors electronically must by walking by them. There were some other effects, too. I think that he was enthusiastic about retooling the chip somehow so that he could supposedly "read" people's minds and elicit the particular emotions in them that he, himself, wanted them to have.
Hope that never comes to fruition.
Hi Suzette
I read with interest the statement you made:
"I am myself considering leaving the church I have been attending because they appear to be heading down the New Age road (alpha course and all that). Not to mention I have heard several remarks about the Assemblies of God with regards to the NAM and am hoping someone will give me some specifics on that so I can make an informed and accurate assessment of their true nature. I am new to that denomination."
Be very careful with the Assemblies of God. This is my first time to leave a comment but I felt I needed to when I saw your comment.
I left my church in June 2008. I have done extensive research on the New Apostolic Reformation. Some of the Assemblies of God are involved in that belief system.
I am not saying all Assembly of God churches are bad--just be careful.
In fact I just listened to a radio show this morning and the guest (an Assembly of God preacher) was talking about why he left the church.
The show will be repeated tonight at 9:30 eastern time.
Here is the website:
http://www.francesandfriends.com/
or
http://www.jsm.org/explore.cfm/sonliferadio/
Here is the website of the pastor that left the Assembly of God Church:
http://www.michianachristianembassy.com/view/?pageID=262958
To DouginMI and All,
Re:Do any of you here sincerely expect to resolve the conflicts between -
Catholic & Protestant (Or other Christian groups)Jews / Christians - Messianinc Jews,,,ect -ect -???
I mean seriously - it all seems like lessons in vanity to me.
NONE of it edifying.
Conflicts are never going to be resolved between various religious groups as long as members of said groups insist on sending each other hell over doctrinal disagreements......or accusing each other of being "tools of the antichrist."
I know that there has been a lot said here about false ecumenism and I don't agree with false ecumenism any more than anyone else here.
However, there is such a thing as a TRUE kind of ecumenism in which people are willing (out of charity) to join hands with people of other religious persuasions for the sake of what they DO agree on -while honestly acknowledging religious differences and respecting the sincerity of others who hold differing religious views.
Speaking exclusively in terms of Christianity, C.S. Lewis had this to say in the Preface to his book MERE CHRISTIANITY:
The reader should be warned that I offer no help to anyone who is
hesitating between two Christian "denominations." You will not learn from me
whether you ought to become an Anglican, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, or a
Roman Catholic.
This omission is intentional (even in the list I have just given the
order is alphabetical). There is no mystery about my own position. I am a
very ordinary layman of the Church of England, not especially "high," nor
especially "low," nor especially anything else. But in this book I am not
trying to convert anyone to my own position. Ever since I became a Christian
I have thought that the best, perhaps the only, service I could do for my
unbelieving neighbours was to explain and defend the belief that has been
common to nearly all Christians at all times.....
.... Some people draw unwarranted conclusions from the fact that I never say
more about the Blessed Virgin Mary than is involved in asserting the Virgin
Birth of Christ. But surely my reason for not doing so is obvious? To say
more would take me at once into highly controversial regions. And there is
no controversy between Christians which needs to be so delicately touched as
this. The Roman Catholic beliefs on that subject are held not only with the
ordinary fervour that attaches to all sincere religious belief, but (very
naturally) with the peculiar and, as it were, chivalrous sensibility that a
man feels when the honour of his mother or his beloved is at stake.
It is very difficult so to dissent from them that you will not appear
to them a cad as well as a heretic. And contrariwise, the opposed Protestant
beliefs on this subject call forth feelings which go down to the very roots
of all Monotheism whatever. To radical Protestants it seems that the
distinction between Creator and creature (however holy) is imperilled: that
Polytheism is risen again. Hence it is hard so to dissent from them that you
will not appear something worse than a heretic-an idolater, a Pagan. If any
topic could be relied upon to wreck a book about "mere" Christianity-if any
topic makes utterly unprofitable reading for those who do not yet believe
that the Virgin's son is God-surely this is it.....
.... The danger dearly was that I should put forward as common Christianity
anything that was peculiar to the Church of England or (worse still) to
myself. I tried to guard against this by sending the original script of what
is now Book II to four clergymen (Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman
Catholic) and asking for their criticism. The Methodist thought I had not
said enough about Faith, and the Roman Catholic thought I had gone rather
too far about the comparative unimportance of theories in explanation of the
Atonement. Otherwise all five of us were agreed. I did not have the
remaining books similarly "vetted" because in them, though differences might
arise among Christians, these would be differences between individuals or
schools of thought, not between denominations....
Read MERE CHRISTIANITY online here:
http://lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt
To Suzette, who writes:
"subsequent posting by Joyce that many take as anti-Catholic"
Suzette,
I have been reading your posts the last couple of weeks and you seem like a really kind person. Your statement above, however, is extremely condescending.
Joyce's statements about Catholicism are OBJECTIVELY SPEAKING rabid, bigoted, and extremely offensive to any Catholic who takes their religion seriously.
Your "hedging" (i.e. "sugar-coating") of those statements by describing them as postings some "may take as anti-Catholic" (emphasis mine) instead of simply describing them as they are, which is simply, ANTI-CATHOLIC, period, minimizes the harm that Joyce intentionally inflicts with such ugly remarks, implying instead that the problem is a subjective one residing with the "hearer," who interprets them as anti-Catholic.
The statements are objectively and on their face bigoted, Suzette. You should condemn them as such on their own terms, unless you agree with them, in both tone and content. If you do agree with them, have the courage to say it, instead of the spinning that you engage in above.
I realize you probably didn't realize what you were saying here, but hopefully this post will make real for you how it sounded to me.
If Joyce calls someone who is black a n*gger and someone said, in response "That black person may perceive Joyce's remarks as racist," would the latter statement bother you nearly as much as the first? I hope so.
To DouginMi (11:38 AM)
Re: Do any of you here sincerely expect to resolve the conflicts between - Catholic & Protestant (Or other Christian groups)Jews / Christians - Messianinc Jews,,,ect -ect -??? I mean seriously - it all seems like lessons in vanity to me."
__________________________________
Doug, let's look at this another way. How would you like it if Protestant Christians on this blog were "slammed" with inaccuracies about your beliefs day after dsy after day? Would you consider it "vain" to want to straighten them out?
Most of what is being said on this blog -- about what Catholics supposedly "believe" -- is untrue and often based on ignorance and prejudice that is handed down from generation to generation.
When someone "slanders" my Catholic faith, I am going to at least TRY and re-educste that person. There are many inaccuracies that are being repeated over and over again as "truth" -- and it's absolutely unfair to us Catholics for those inaccuracies to remain unchallenged!!!
Maybe, because you are not a Catholic, that's very difficult for you to empathize with.
Bottom line, we are not asking for conflict resolution so much as RESPECT for our right to continue to believe in our Catholic faith in peace.
A much better use of of our time on this blog (besides exchanging information on the NAM) should be spent on our knees asking God for the strength and guidance to endure the coming times that lie ahead for ALL of us.
DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL SECURITY
I know some good, well-intentioned Protestant Christians who believe that (for example) they can continue to lie, steal and/or cheat their "neighbor" -- and it doesn't matter - because they are "saved."
To Anon (1:07)
This is known broadly as the doctrine of "Eternal Security"
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_security
Most of the non-Catholic Christian posters at this blog (Paul, Leana, Joyce, Rudi, etc.) , from what they have said in their various posts, appear to adhere to this doctrine. (Why have I noticed this? This was an area of research for me in graduate school, so I am very "tuned into" what people say in regard to this doctrine).
Their are, however, a number of Protestants, including ones who describe themselves as "Evangelical" who do NOT adhere to it at all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_salvation
I will state that I personally believe it is a false, heretical doctrine which cannot be reconciled with either scripture or the natural law, however, I will not proselytize endlessly and belligerently to this effect, unlike some of the Protestants here do about brands of Christianity they consider "inferior."
:-)
Susannah, you obviously have a heart for God, is it possible He has called for you to be "called out"?
Suzette,
You seem surprised that a traditional Catholic would have, as you call it, a "heart for God." This suggests that you have had minimal first-hand, meaningful contact with Catholics who take their Catholic Christian faith as seriously as you take your non-Catholic Christian faith.
Maybe you should seek some of them out and "test" whether your theories about them stand up to empirical experience.
If it's not possible to find such people in your geographic area or social circle, you might consider starting to read some of the classic writings of the Christian faith, most of which were written by Catholics.
Now, as to the question of Susanna being "called out" of the Roman Catholic Church....
I can't speak personally for Susanna, but having read her posts for many months, I can say with full confidence that Susanna is no more likely to leave the Roman Catholic Church--that was founded by Jesus Christ himself to speak in time for Him in matters of faith and morals, and which He has promised the gates of hell will not prevail against--than you are to eat your hat tomorrow for dinner.
The following questions need to be asked:
Why do some so-called "Christians" (on this blog) spend so much TIME talking AGAINST other Christians???
And why do some continue to ignore the command of Jesus to "love thy neighbor as thyself"?
Why do some so-called "Christians" (on this blog) spend so much TIME talking AGAINST other Christians???
And why do some continue to ignore the command of Jesus to "love thy neighbor as thyself"?
Answer: Because they think they have the "corner" on salvation, that they have a special corner on "Christian truth," and that by failing to speak against Catholicism, which they perceive as "false doctrine," is to be "lukewarm" about their faith.
This is why the non-Catholic Christians here stay silent in the face of the verbal abuse that is poured out about Catholicism.
If you are Catholic, don't look to any of these people for help if you are persecuted for your Christian faith. I can guarantee you, absent a personal conversion experience, they will turn the other way and pretend it isn't happening.
P.S. "they will turn the other way and pretend it isn't happening," confident in their belief that they are "saved" regardless of how they choose to exercise their free will during their lifetimes.
See "DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL SECURITY" above.
To Suzette, who writes:
"http://www.catholic.org/
bible/book.php?id=2
New Jerusalem Bible Matthew 23
9 You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven."
What do your children call your husband?
Do you celebrate a holiday in June called "Father's Day"?
Anonymous 2:33 P.M.
Re:I can't speak personally for Susanna, but having read her posts for many months, I can say with full confidence that Susanna is no more likely to leave the Roman Catholic Church--that was founded by Jesus Christ himself to speak in time for Him in matters of faith and morals, and which He has promised the gates of hell will not prevail against--than you are to eat your hat tomorrow for dinner.
I will speak personally for myself anonymous. You are absolutely correct. :-)
P.S. Anonymous 2:33 P.M.
The following article just made my day. I hope it makes yours. :-)
____________________________
From the BBC:
VATICAN DIVORCES FROM ITALIAN LAW
By David Willey BBC News, Rome
The Vatican City State, the world's smallest sovereign state, has decided to divorce itself from Italian law.
Vatican legal experts say there are too many laws in Italian civil and criminal codes, and that they frequently conflict with Church principles.
With effect from New Year's Day, the Pope has decided that the Vatican will no longer automatically adopt laws passed by the Italian parliament.
All Italian laws will be examined one by one before they are adopted.
Under the Lateran treaties signed exactly 80 years ago between Italy and the Pope, and the Italian Parliamentary system, Italian laws were applied automatically.
Government confession
A senior Vatican Canon lawyer, Monsignor Jose Maria Serrano Ruiz, has gone on record as saying that Italian laws are too many, too unstable and too often conflict with the moral teachings of the Catholic Church.
The reaction from the Italian government has been that from a technical point of view, the Vatican may well be right.
An Italian government minister admitted Italian laws are often badly written and are sometimes difficult to understand.
An Italian parliamentary commission is at present working out how to delete tens of thousands of obsolete laws from Italy's civil code.
The Vatican has also decided to scrutinise international treaties before deciding whether or not to adhere to them.
It has recently refused to approve a United Nations declaration decriminalising homosexuality.
The wording went too far, Vatican officials said, in placing different sexual orientations on the same level.
Some legal observers believe that the Vatican is simply trying to assert its legal independence in cases involving for example, civil unions, divorce, living wills, or euthanasia.
If Italy were to legalise same sex marriages or euthanasia, for example, the Vatican would now be able to refuse to recognise that.
http://stlouiscatholic.blogspot.com/
SCRIPTURE DILEMMA
Suzette,
I urge you to consider the following hypothetical "puzzle" before you begin making further suggestions that Catholics should consider leaving their church (I doubt any Catholic here would ever DREAM of suggesting that you [or Paul, or Rudi, or Leana, or Joyce, or Constance, or Doug, or JD, etc.] should abandon your non-Catholic faith....but that's a question, as I see it, of "good manners")
You say you are seeking truth and continue to pray and study scripture. What makes you confident that YOUR interpretation of scripture is the correct one?
HYPOTHETICAL PUZZLE
You and a neighbor of yours who loves the Lord just as much as you do, are both pondering the same passage of scripture but she comes to a different conclusion about it which cannot be reconciled with YOUR interpretation.
How do you determine who has the correct interpretation of these two mutually exclusive interpretations--you, or your neighbor?*
Is there a "Supreme Court" of "Biblical" Christianity to whom you can appeal for a definitive answer?
*Consider for the sake of argument that the neighbor (1)is the same age as you, (2)has been reading the Bible and attending the same church as you for the same number of years, and (3) prayed as deeply and sincerely for discernment and guidance as you have.
Many of us Catholics "have a heart for God."
That's why we are quite happy and at peace with our choice to remain in the Catholic Church - the church which Jesus Christ Himself founded.
Joyce:
It seems to REALLY get under your skin that Mrs. Cumbey doesn't share your utter disdain for Catholicism. It probably gets under Rudi's skin too. I'll bet you and Rudi have talked about this on the phone, LOL.
It's apparent to anyone with half a brain who reads your semi-literate diatribes that you've never engaged in any kind of serious academic study in your entire life. You are full of "information" but it is so disordered as to be incoherent gibberish. You just throw in a phase like "Yeshua's blood" every once in a while and the tin soldiers click their heels and salute.
Constance 9:07
You're very welcome and Happy New Year to you, too!
Susanna 1:10
You said:
"Sometime you and I will have to have a discussion on the origins of the "Christian" gnostics."
I say:
That would be fun!
You said:
"The founders were neither Christians nor true Jews.
They were the descendants of the Samaritans who had formally defected to the pagan Greek camp during the Maccabeean war of independence against Antiochus IV Epiphanes - generally regarded by the Catholic Church as a type of antichrist."
That is true, but I think it is an over simplification.
Perhaps we can have a "Round table" discussion some day, lol!
Happy New Year to you, too!
Suzette,
Thanks for your comment.
This article, from a Catholic perspective, covers some interesting topics about the subject.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/faith_vs_works.htm
In the end, I believe that faith in Jesus as the Christ is a sign in those who are truly born again. So is love. It is difficult for those who are truly born again, to stay in the world, so to speak, so they naturally seek to do good works and not commit sin. Good works is certainly the by-product of being born again. But it is faith that comes first in the process. That's my viewpoint, and those who want to tear it apart can do so if they wish. I have no intention in contributing to controversy and negativity here.
Jolo,
That is a really scary story about the man who was implanted with the chip. What a wacko! Wanting to open doors and read minds? Sounds like something straight out of nanotechnology or "What women want!"
Loved Mel Gibson in that movie, by the way, especially when he was donning his nylon stockings!
Take care and thanks again for the link,
Maryanne
To Maryanne (9:13 PM):
Boy, you are a piece of work!
First, you post a statement to Susette, that you have "no intention in contributing to controversy and negativity here" - after you post a web site which starts out with the false and misleading headline: "Do Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven?"
So much for NOT contributing to "negativitiy" - but then YOU are the one who has to live with yourself each and every day!!!
And, this from the same person who announced earlier today:
"The first time that I realized that I did not have to earn my way to heaven, I felt very relieved. I know I'm a hopeless sinner no matter how hard I try to be good."
So, that is your definition of being "saved"?
Boy, you are one "messed up" woman. Is that why you have belonged to so many different religions in your life time?
At least we Catholics are confident in what we believe. Now, if we could just get rid of the "slime" on this blog that keeps attacking us!
Dear Anonymous 10:04,
If you had taken the time to really look at the link that I posted in my comment to Suzette, you would have realized that it was a pro-Catholic site. On the home page of the site, the blog author, a CATHOLIC musician says the following:
"As a worship leader and songwriter, I'm often at events with Christians from many backgrounds. I love praising Jesus with all Christians. Jesus said "wherever two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them." (Mat 18:20). An Evangelical lady approached me saying "I love your music and your heart for the Lord. What church do you attend?" I said "I'm Catholic." There was a long pause and her face fell. Then the questions started Are Catholics Christian? ... Is the Catholic Church Bible based? ...Why are you guys so into Mary?... Isn't Jesus about relationship and not religion? ... Don't you guys think you can work your way into heaven? ... and so on.
I find myself in that situation often. Some of these good Christians are surprised to learn that the Catholic Mass is all Bible, that the Rosary is a meditation on the life of Jesus, and that we have an Altar Call at every Mass (Communion). My Evangelical friends see that I've have had a life changing experience, and have surrendered all that I am to him. They say I am "born again". "
Link to the welcome page:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/index2.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/9jnavk
In an effort to create a little peace and good will on this site, I pointed out a pro- Catholic site that encourages all believers in Jesus Christ to be tolerant of one another.
Obviously, you missed the point.
Maryanne
Anonymous 10:04 said to Maryanne:
To Maryanne (9:13 PM):
Boy, you are a piece of work!
First, you post a statement to Susette, that you have "no intention in contributing to controversy and negativity here" - after you post a web site which starts out with the false and misleading headline: "Do Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven?"
So much for NOT contributing to "negativitiy" - but then YOU are the one who has to live with yourself each and every day!!!
And, this from the same person who announced earlier today:
"The first time that I realized that I did not have to earn my way to heaven, I felt very relieved. I know I'm a hopeless sinner no matter how hard I try to be good."
So, that is your definition of being "saved"?
Boy, you are one "messed up" woman. Is that why you have belonged to so many different religions in your life time?
At least we Catholics are confident in what we believe. Now, if we could just get rid of the "slime" on this blog that keeps attacking us!
Anonymous people who attack others without reason and call people names like "slime" without provocation, are certainly not setting a very good example for the newcomers on this blog.
I hope Constance will consider some rules of etiquette here before it's too late.
MARYANNE
Powerful testimony at the site you just linked to regarding New Age "spirituality" and its effect on an individual.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/new_age.htm
I hope you and everyone else gets to read it.
To Anonymous (12:28 AM):
Well, if Constance decides to "consider some rules of etiquette here before it's too late" . . .
The No. l rule should be:
"Thou shalt show respect for other posters' religious beliefs and convictions."
To Maryanne:
I was completely unfamiliar with David MacDonald's web site before today, but I understand that even though he grew up "an atheist in a secular home" - he became a convert to the Catholic Church and has remained a devout Catholic for the past 21 years.
So, I stand corrected about my first erroneous impression of his web site.
Carolynf 1:30pm (date?)
Thank you for taking the time to answer and provide some information about the AoG. I have just read your comment and still have company in for the holidays but will gratefully and earnestly read this information - again thank you. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I felt I was getting too emotionally involved and absorbed in the blog and took a couple of days off to enjoy the remaining vacation time with my family. It's pretty bad when you have to force yourself not to check the blog!
Blessings to you, and nice to "meet" you.
Suzette
Anonymoud 2:09 and evryone else for that matter -
"Maybe, because you are not a Catholic, that's very difficult for you to empathize with."
Your assumption - is inaccurate.
I was born into catholicism - was an alter bot - cathecism all that goes with it - but when the time came for confirmation - I said no -
I will leave it there -
DouginMI
For all of those here that are pursuing the "Trinity" ,I prefer the Tri-Unity of the Godhead, issue, I would suggest a book:
"The Trinity"
by Edward H. Bickersteth
It can be found online for as little as $1.99 for a used copy.
It is in my opinion an excellant work in aiding the study of the topic.
Hope this helps.
HK
Anon 3:04pm
My children call my husband Dad. Yes we have celebrated Father's Day but I am hoping this coming year, to avoid it. This afterall is just another Hallmark Holiday. I have only recently come to really get a handle on this scripture. When I find something in the Bible that I have not been previously aware of or applying to my life, I try to go forward and correct my erroneous behavior.
For instance, I have heard for many years and from different Christians, it shows up on Christian talk radio etc. about the dangers and falsehoods of many holidays. Some were obvious and were easy to get away from because they were so blatently evil - Hell-on-wheels, oh I mean Halloween. Others like Christmas, which from some scholarly work is inaccurate in it's timing, is more based on Winter Solstice and rift with paganism and symbolism, is a hard one to let go of because that's not why I celebrate it. I am not celebrating it because I am a pagan, I am celebrating it because I am celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior Yeshuah / Jesus.
However, this year just a few months ago I was doing some study and reading and there it was, the Christmas tree in the Bible. It was incredible, but there it was in Jeremiah 10:1-5 (KJV) I use that version because it is widely accepted however it is very well explained in the Amplified.
1Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Our tree went (it never came out of the box this year) to charity last week. Yes, I did have a dilema on whether to just throw it out in the trash or donate it. I decided to donate it. I've heard some people use them as play props and such, maybe that wasn't the best decision but only God can answer as to whether I should have just destroyed it.
Suzette
Anonymous 3:14 p.m. and 2:18 a.m.- I read through your Scriptural references that you say give validity to the doctrine of the trinity. It appears that you are interpreting these Scriptures to fit a notion that you have been taught according to men's theology about what God says, as opposed to what God says in Scripture, taking it as a whole to establish doctrine. Jesus condemned the teachings and traditions of men that make void the word of God (Matthew 15:6). The doctrine of the trinity is antithetical to the gospel of the Kingdom of God that Jesus preached. What is the worship that Jesus is looking for? See John 4:24. John 17:17 gives the basis for doctrine, not the traditions of men or false religion. To illustrate the falsity of the doctrine of the trinity, my question to you is this, "What is the hope of glory?"
Young Grasshopper--
Link (old) to transhumanism and the schools.
http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/1218/
or
http://tinyurl.com/77fb7y
YG--
In keeping with the thread on transhumanism, take at look at this site. Of note, the "evolutionary" graphic on the right of the page.
http://www.miqel.com/transhumanism_nano/transhuman-posthuman-uberman.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/72ls6g
Also note that the title/topic goes past transhumanism to "posthumanist."
I thought this was interesting.
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Index_view.asp?code=185600
The Enneagram was one reason I left the Catholic Church twenty years ago. It was taught at one of the parishes I attended in an attempt to find a parish which did not teach junk. I discovered that this silly New Age technique is taught by battalions of de-cloistered nuns who need a way to make a living. It was endorsed by the priest at the church I was attending, who was himself under scrutiny for participation in overt homosexuality.
At that time, I was still in the "open minded" stage, trying to find a church, either Protestant or Catholic, which was not full of junk. I was really looking.
I found many other occultic practices in the Catholic church at that time, such as meetings in the basement of one parish which were like seances (not billed as such, but where entities from the spiritual realm were entertained, most of them not even saints, certainly none of them a Person of the Trinity). I was informed at that particular parish that the Pope was a bad man. Since I was in my open-minded phase, I tried to observe all this and see if it had merit...if these people actually had found a better form of Christianity.
What really threw me straght out the door of the last parish I attended was a sinister form of psychology practiced on employees of the parish as well as anyone who dared to go to any form of "meeting". I do not know what this psychology is called, but it sounds like something from Brave New World. It is based on concensus building. The leaders have a goal in mind, such as firing a lay worker at the parish, but they want to be sure that the movement to do so comes from the "ground up". If anyone says anything which is contrary to the pre-determined concensus, that person is silenced aß quickly as possible. This form of brainwashing also tries to get the victim/opponent to accept that he/she is wrong, even though he/she is a beloved child of God (they always sugar coat the dagger).
This concensus building was just like the form used by my boss in a department of a community college, who once said, quote, "I can always force concensus."
After leaving the Catholic church I found Protestant churches which were full of similar junk, or were just lukewarm baby sitters for mobs of teenagers who liked very loud music. I sometimes wonder why I am still a Christian. Maybe Jesus has me on His mind?
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