Dear Friends:
The doctors have told my husband that his procedures today went well -- he can even go home tonight, BUT, not until 8:30 p.m. Eastern time which runs right into my THEMICROEFFECT.COM showtime. Sarah Leslie always does a brilliant and capable job of guest hosting for me and tonight she will be interviewing Dennis Cuddy. Those are TWO SUPERSTARS so tune in, stay tuned, and God willing, I'll be back on the air next Tuesday night. Thank you for your prayers for my husband, Barry!
Constance
373 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 373 of 373See 2:52 Anonymous comment
Buckle up everyone.
It looks like "Brother Eric" is back.
Dear Joyce,
I had no idea you were Jewish. I also had family murdered in the Holocaust. I would love to hear your background and how you came to become Christian. I see you do not consider yourself as such but the definition of a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus’ messianship and/or divinity. Such a belief is inimical to Torah. So you are a Jewish Christian or “Messianic Jew.” I have heard other such stories that usually boil down to someone having led a dissolute life till they were rescued by Christians.
You have narrated how Judaism has evolved over the millennia and all this is largely correct. Jews today are the product of those on whose shoulders we stand. I am delighted that you understand the interaction of the Jewish sects in Jesus’ time and that saves me some work. I would like to propose for your consideration that Jesus being “hard on the Pharisees” may have been more in the editing of the New Testament than in actuality. In his book, “The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity,” Hyam Maccoby provides chapter and verse, many pages, showing how Jesus was basically a Pharisee based on the New Testament itself. The gospels attacked the Pharisees as hypocrites and would-be murderers: yet they convey an impression of the Pharisees as figures of immense authority and dignity. This ambivalence reflects the attitude of Christianity to Judaism itself; on the one hand, as allegedly outdated ritualism but, on the other, a panorama of awesome history, a source of authority and blessing, so that at all costs the church must portray itself as the New Israel, the true Judaism.
The motive for the Pharisee/Sadducee New Testament flip was to discredit the Pharisees who were the Jews’ chief religious authorities; not the Sadducees. By the time the Christian Bible was redacted the Sadducees had lost all influence. It was important for the Gospels to represent Jesus as a rebel against the Jewish religion.
Jesus may have lived Torah perfectly as you say (I wasn’t there:-), but Paul represented Torah as impossible to live perfectly so humanity must consequently be saved from the curse of the Torah (Rom. 3:28).
You wrote “that Yeshua, gave correct interpretation to Torah, because He was the Word, that became flesh and dwelt among us.” There is an interesting book, “A Rabbi Talks With Jesus,” by Jacob Neusner. He analyzes what are arguably Jesus’ most Jewish statements like the Sermon on the Mount. and concludes that even these are philosophically contradictory to Judaism because of nuances like “But I say ---.”
Incidentally, the Acts verse you cite, “ that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. “ are four of the Noahite laws. Some have noted that there were many gentile Noahites who lived among the Jews in Jesus’ time and that Paul (in this case probably Luke) was simply preaching them and not Christianity. See also Romans 11:9.
Continued:
HAHAHAHAHAH!
Anonymous 3:15
I knew it!
My theory has been proven correct thanks to you.
Anonymous said:
"Don't you think it's time for all of this manipulation and "head game playing" to cease and desist?
This is a major "turn off" to the rest of us out there who are simply trying to learn everything we can about the New Age Movement, which SHOULD be the main reason why we are all here.
Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to vent."
The blog administrator holds the key.
The Idiot Savante
Constance Cumbey 6:19 said:
"It's an old game -- establish oneself as the "expert" and then attack those who dare go beyond the pre-defined perimeters to actually uncover the truth!"
I lovvvvvvvve ITTTTTTT!!!!
to everyone here, this websight would be helpful to all It is the Nostra Aetate.
http://www.adl.org/main_Interfaith/nostra_aetate.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_7
As a Noahide myself I believe that the laws of Noah, a convenent never broken in old or new testament are the univeral means to God.
To Connie (NOT Constance, but "Connie" the poster)
I'm afraid you have been "Brother Eric'd" (@ 3:15 today).
Since you're new here I wanted to give you a "heads up."
http://www.zionistchampions.com/constance_cumbey_jesuit.htm
I'm sure that if Connie decides to stick around long enough, she has the brains and common sense to gain a perspective and see the TRUTH for herself . . . without anyone trying to pounce on, sway or manipulate "the new kid on the block."
Your transparency and your desperation are clearly showing!!!
anonymous 4:34
Transparency?
Mirror mirror on the wall,
who sees clearest of them all?
Smoke and mirrors. Smoke and mirrors.
The truth about this blog has finally revealed itself.
"The truth about this blog has finally revealed itself."
That's very cryptic.
For those of us who are "uninitiated" would you explain what you mean?
Thank you!
Anonymous Dumbie
Hey everyone, we can get a calander of Obama on every page now, wow just $35 buck.
This came in email today.
Also another email with a video on the house parties is out, but sad for me I have no video ability.
YS
Friend --
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We can't do it alone, and we can't do it in a single day.
But thanks to supporters like you, change is coming.
Show your support for our ongoing movement with an Obama four-year calendar -- or share one as a holiday gift.
Make a donation of $35 and get a limited edition, full-color calendar featuring photos of President-elect Obama and his family from the campaign trail:
Anonymous 5:15:
I am of the opinion that the Idiot Savante deserves a large bonus.
It is very difficult in these times to determine the amount the Idiot should receive. If I were brought in to do the job that he was, I would want at least $10M as a bonus.
With that said, I disapprove of your spelling.
Dear Joyce,
This is a continuation of the prior message.
I wrote that your view that "Torah does not equal Judaism" is partly true because Torah is explained by the Talmud and many other works. But that does not seem to be what you meant. You said "Torah without the revelation of Yeshua as the Living Torah, has its limitations," and that you “can quote you hundreds of verses and stories that point to Him.” Joyce, I have been involved in interreligious dialogue on the Internet for 15 years now and I have yet to see such verses that were not either mistranslated from the Hebrew, or simply metaphoric/allegoric interpretations and distortions of the original meaning. In fact there are several messianic prophecies where it can be shown that exactly the opposite occurred during Jesus’ era. You said you know of hundreds such verses and stories. I don’t want to go through them either but I have probably seen many if not most of them.
Others better than I have gone through the major ones and you can see responses to many of them, for instance, on this site:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html
In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer has brought many Messianic Jews back to Judaism with his profound, incisive, articulate analysis of missionary claims. He has a set of 18 CDs including a 423 page study guide. I personally know a former Southern Baptist pastor with a doctorate in theology, former professor in a Baptist seminary, who converted to Orthodox Judaism after listening. FWIW here are websites of two other former Christian clergy who have converted to Orthodox Judaism; both brilliant people as you can see from their web sites.
http://www.asherwade.com/show.asp?PID=5
http://www.ministersjourney.blogspot.com/
For example, where is it cited that Jesus performed what is stated in your quote: “Zech. 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. “ This is proof????
Or your citation of: “Zech. 12:10 ¶ “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, 1the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. “
This is simply a mistranslation of the Hebrew which actually means: “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to Me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.”
You do have a fine appreciation for the significance of Jewish history but do not realize how profound and important its influence on the world has been even discounting Jesus; especially discounting Jesus.
I agree with you “that Jews [cannot] accept a "torahless" Messiah but disagree that Christians have misinterpreted “some of the verses in the Apostles writings” to form a "new religion". You don’t give Christians enough credit. Perhaps they see what you don’t; what Paul or his editors intended. Following are highlights from Maimonides’ “Mishneh Torah” relevant to the Messiah.
Ch. 11
3. Do not suppose that King Messiah will have to perform signs and wonders, --- revive the dead or similar acts. It is not so. --- Basically, things are as follows: This Torah of ours, its statutes and laws, will never be subject to change. Nothing is to be added to or taken away from them.
Ch. 12
1. Do not suppose that --- any of the laws of nature will cease to exist ---. The world will continue its normal course. Re, Isaiah 11:6, [The wolf/lamb statement] should be understood figuratively. It signifies that the Israelite people will dwell securely among the world’s evil men who are likened to wolves and leopards, as it is written, “Wolves of the desert ravage them, leopards keep watch around their cities (Jer. 5:6). They will all turn to the true religion and neither plunder or destroy; they will eat what is permissible, gently, along with Israel, as it is written: “The lion shall eat straw like any ox (7)." So too all similar biblical passages relating to the Messiah are metaphorical. During the messianic era their precise metaphorical significance will become known to all.
2. The sages have declared: “ The only difference between the present world and the messianic era is our present subjugation to foreign powers (Talmud Berakhoth 34b). --- Some sages declared that Elijah the prophet will appear before the --- Messiah (Re: Malachi 3:23). No person is in a position to know how all these things will happen until they take place. The prophets mention them vaguely, not explicitly. [There is disagreement among the sages on this subject]. At any rate, NEITHER THE SEQUENCE OF THESE EVENTS OR THEIR MINUTE DETAILS ARE OF BASIC IMPORTANCE IN RELIGION. One should never deal with legendary topics, or stretch midrashic statements ---. One should not consider them essential because they do not lead to love of and reverence [for God].
4. The prophets and sages longed for the messianic days NOT in order to dominate the nations of the world, or to rule over them, or to be exalted by them, or to eat, drink and rejoice, BUT to be free to study Torah, with no one to oppress or disturb them, so as to deserve life in the world to come ---.
5. In that era there will be no famine, war, envy or strife. Prosperity will prevail and all kinds of luxuries will be available like dust (Like the Internet?). The universal preoccupation will be to know the Lord. ---
Postscript:
Maimonides’ statement that the Messiah will be human has a basis in the bible. Moses is prototypical as he was kind of messianic in his time. Note the similarity between the words, Moshe and Moshiach. Did he do it all himself? Certainly not! In fact, during the Passover Seder Moses’ name is mentioned only once to emphasize Gods role, and as a precaution against worship of Moses. (Note also Moses’ simple birth as described in scripture, his faults of speech and behavior, the latter precluding his entering the Promised Land, and the hiddeness of his grave).
As the Exodus occurred in history, so will the Messianic age remain in history (Ref. “The Jewish Way,” Pg.37, by Rabbi Irving Greenberg). “This idea is in contrast to the development of Christian messianism. The early Christians experienced Jesus as the redeemer in their midst. Having experienced the Messiah’s ‘actual presence,’ the Christians were tormented by the contradictions between his coming, which should have brought the Exodus for all, and the reality of a world still unredeemed. one way to resolve this was by denying --- . But for some the experience of his coming was too strong to deny. Another interpretation was then explored. --- the true messiah was not in the external physical world but in the internal spiritual world.--- Christians ended up changing the very notion of messianism. They translated the concept --- into a state of personal salvation, thus removing it from the realm of history. they were acting on the Jewish Exodus model but resolving its tensions in a manner that eventually turned them away from Judaism.
Rabbi Greenberg also points out that the Sabbath is a model of the Messianic time to come and, at its highest level, a fantasy of the perfect world. On this day prayer consists of praise of God and thanksgiving, but not request. We pray as if there is nothing lacking. No work, no shopping and no constructive labor is required. The whole earth is at rest in observance and memory of the seventh day of creation as well as the Exodus.
Notwithstanding all the above, Christianity (and Islam) are great (in the sense of worthwhile, as well as populous) religions. We have a lot more in common with respect to the meaning of life, and on social issues, than either of us has with atheists. Nearly two thousand years ago Paul started a process that brought a majority of the earth’s pagans to worship a monotheistic God, the God of Israel. I hope you forgive me when I say that, while Christianity represented a great leap forward for those pagans and for the world, it would represent a step backward for Jews.
“Through you shall the whole world be blessed.” This is the essence of God’s promise to the Jews and to all mankind; the promise that ties us together in what should be cooperation, not dissonance. Jews were chosen, not for privilege but for duty; to bring the world to worship of the One God. To the extent of Christianity and Islam, both of which arose from Judaism, we’ve been partly successful. Maybe, as some wag said, “Pluralism is the will of God.” We’ll find out. Stay tuned in.
Anonymous 5:29
Money is not important to the Idiot. Truth is.
I'm sure I know why you disapprove of the Idiot's spelling. But you're not going to catch me on that one!
Au revoir!
Thanks, Anonymous (4:29 PM):
for sending this eye-opening link!!
http://www.zionistchampions.com/constance_cumbey_jesuit
LEN
You did a great job in explaining the Jewish view of Judaism, information most Christians do not have access to. Academics do. Religion is such a huge and complex topic with information for both the layman and the academics as any wall of books in religion sections of libraries and bookstores will show.
There must be a full moon out there or winds whistling making eerie sounds. First there was the weird warning that somehow I run the blog. It did sound like Phelps who gave Constance a grandiose title of something connected with the Jesuits which was noted by an anonymous. The reality is there is a Constance Cumbey who has written books. She runs this blog. She has a radio show and is a lawyer who is in the phone book. Her material is so important it is archived at a unversity library. She gives orders. She doesn't take them.
That led to a series of comment exchanges straight out of a Bond movie. Speaking in code stuff.
Then someone linked to Zionist Champions which suggests Phelps is a Zionist and diamond merchant secretly working for Israel, that he probably is some kind of agent provateur, not a raving antisemite.
That website led to some guy claiming he has been smeared, that the pagan Illuminati is behind everything and that there is no Jewish religion.
Connie and anyone else new to this blog. Please stay around. The full moon does go away and the winds die down. People go back to
posting what they have found on the New Age movement which is not a white energy ball illusion we are chasing but something that can be documented in the political papers of the world's governments.
Dorothy
To Connie:
Please don't allow ANYONE to influence you on this blog.
I always consider it a huge "red flag" when someone (such as the anonymous poster of 2:52 PM today) tries to "warn" a new blogger about other bloggers.
It sounds so desperate, so childish and so manipulative as to be laughable.
Connie, make up your own mind. You will figure out the truth soon enough.
Meanwhile, welcome aboard.
Yes, Dorothy - there must be a full moon. LOL
Hi Dorothy,
Boy you really know your way around don't cha?
"Then someone linked to Zionist Champions which suggests Phelps is a Zionist and diamond merchant secretly working for Israel, that he probably is some kind of agent provateur, not a raving antisemite."
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
Smoke and mirrors , smoke and mirrors!
Hi Joyce,
I read your discussions of the Shema and your opinions about “echad” meaning a composite unity. IMHO you have been reading too much missionary propaganda. The only thing you omitted is the comparison with yachid. Similarly, you have corrupted the concept of a “plural” Elohim that you got off that web site. The guy who wrote that just showed the tip of the iceberg of meaning. In this message I will attempt to clarify both words.
The words, echad and yachid are simply two forms of the same word; just as in english, where “go” and “went” are two forms of the same verb. Your “general rule” that echad is a corporate word, indicating a compound unity, is without foundation. The best way to understand what the word "echad" means is to understand that it is synonymous with the English word "one" which can be either singular or compound depending on context. I am sure you can come up with both kinds of examples for “one.”
The basic meaning of echad (achat for feminine forms), is the ordinal number, one. One day is yom echad (Gen. 1:5), and one year is shanah achat (don’t ask me why day is masculine and year feminine). Now these are simple unities unless one wants to contemplate his navel and consider that a year is made of days and, a day, of hours. By the same token one could say that a second is made of microseconds ad infinitum. However, echad can also be used in a sense that means none (af echad lo), or together (compound unity) (k’echad, literally, as one).
The basic meaning of the form, yachad, on the other hand, is “to be united, joined, attached.” Yichud is used to describe a man and woman alone together, indicating a compound unity; also yachad, yachdov, or yachadov mean together, jointly. A declaration of the unity of God is stated, yichud ha’Ayl, or yichud Ha’shem, and the word for monotheism is emunat ha’yichud (faith in the Oneness). It is clear that context is everything and drawing conclusions from the word form is a slippery slope unless one is expert in Hebrew usage and idioms.
Finally, The Second Principle of Maimonides: I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is unique, and their is no uniqueness like His in any way, and that He alone is our God, Who was, Who is and Who always will be. This is a different form than the one I wrote last time; something I did on purpose to show that there are different ways to say the same thing. In the Hebrew, the words yachid and y’chidut are used here for unique and uniqueness respectively. But if you look at the hymn, Yigdal, based on the Thirteen Principles, you will see that the second stanza includes forms of echad and yachid, reading, “*Echad* v’ayn *yachid* *k’yichudow*; ne’lam v’gam ayn soof *l’ach-du-tow*, meaning, “He is One - and there is no unity like His Oneness. Inscutable and infinite is His Oneness.
The significance of all this is that it is the context that counts. Here Jews and Christians clearly differ but Christians should not be telling Jews how to understand Hebrew.
Elohim, Singlar or Plural?
You will be surprised that the plurality/singularity of “Elohim” was discussed in the Talmud 2000 years ago.
From Talmud Sanhedrin 39b: “R’ Yochanan said: Whenever heretics have used [a verse in scripture as support] for their heresies, the rebuttal [to their challenge can be found in a] nearby [verse]. [As examples, R’ Yochanan cites several references to God in the plural form, which give rise to the heretical argument that there is more than one deity He shows that, next to each such reference, the Torah speaks of God in the singular, thereby rebutting their argument].
Let us (plural form) make man in our (plural) image (Gen. 1:26). But [the next verse] says: Elohim created (singular) man in His (singular) image (1:27).
Let us (plural) descend and confuse (plural) their speech (ibid. 11:7). [But two verses earlier:] the Lord descended (singular) to the city and tower (ibid. Vs. 5).
[Jacob built and alter in Beit El] because there haElohim had appeared (plural) to him (ibid. 35:7). [But four verses earlier it is written, Jacob directed his household to build an alter in Beit El] to God who answered (singular) me in the day of my distress (ibid. Vs 3).
For who is a nation so great that Elohim (God) are close (plural) to them (Deut. 4:7)? [But that very verse continues:] like the Lord our God (Elohaynu) whenever we call Him (singular).
There are more examples in the Talmud but you get the point! You are perpetuating a line of argument that was bankrupted thousands of years ago.
Elohim is used in scripture to denote the true God of all mankind; but it is also used to denote judges and false gods. Here are rules for determining which is which, along with examples from scripture:
False gods:
**When used for false gods or idols, elohim is used in its plural form:** “Beware lest your heart be swayed and you turn astray, and you worship other gods and bow to them (Deut. 11:16).” In Hebrew, “alien gods” is written, “elohim a’chay-rim.” “Gods” and its adjective, “alien” are both plural in accordance with standard Hebrew usage.
“Awesome is He above all gods,” in Hebrew is written, “V’norah hoo al kol elohim (Chronicles 16:25).” Note that the true God is referred to as He (Hoo in Hebrew), not “They”. The word, “kol” means “all,” definitely a plural form for the false gods.
The Real God:
**In most cases in scripture, Elohim is treated as a singular noun when it denotes the true God.** Gen. 1:1 is the most famous example. “In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth.” Here the conjugation for “created,” ba-rah, is singular. More dramatically, scripture is full of the expression, “*hoo* Elokim,” which means *HE* is God (Deut. 4:39, 1 Kings 18:39, Ps. 100). If “They are God” was intended, the phrase “haym Elohim” would be used: but this form is NEVER used in reference to the true God.
In Psalm 100, A Psalm of Thanksgiving, Verse 3 reads, “D’ooh kee the Lord *Hoo* Elokim,” meaning, “Know that the Lord; *He is* God.”
The Psalm 100 quote is derived from the basic quote in Deut. 4:39: “And you shall know this day and take into your heart that the Lord, He is Elohim in the heavens above and upon the earth below; THERE IS NOTHING ELSE.
Nechemiah 9:7 reads, “Atah *hoo* the Lord ha-Elohim,” meaning, “You are *He*, the Lord our God.”
Etymology of Elohim:
Dr. J. H. Hertz’s commentary to Gen. 1 explains, “Elokim is the general designation of God in the bible as the fountain and the source of all things. Elohim is a plural form, which is often used in Hebrew to denote plenitude of might. Here it indicates that God comprehends and unifies all the forces of eternity and infinity. The Hebrew [conjugation] for “created” is singular thus precluding any idea that the subject, Elohim, is to be understood in a plural sense.”
The etymology of Elohim is given in commentary to Gen. 1 by Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (Ramban or Nachmanides). “The word, Elohim, means ‘the master of all forces,’ for the root of the word is ei-l, meaning force, and the word Elohim is a composite consisting of the words ei-l heim, as if the word ei-l is in a construct state, and heim, [literally] ‘they’ alludes to all other forces. Thus Elohim means, ‘the force of all forces.” And in his commentary to Exod. 20:3, “You shall have no other gods before my face,” Nachmanides further states, “The correct interpretation [is that the verse] is similar to the expressions: ‘and the eternal shall be my God (Gen. 28:21)’ and, ‘to be your God (Lev. 11:45).’ The verse here states that excepting the Eternal only, we are not to have other gods, neither from all the angels above nor from all the host of heaven who are called *elohim* (small e). This is something like [Gen. 22:19], ‘he that sacrifices *la-elohim*, unto the gods, except for the Eternal only, shall be utterly destroyed. It is prohibited to believe in ANY of these beings, to accept them as gods, or to say to them, ‘You are my god. (Ps. 140:7).’”
Duet. 6: 4 is not only a statement of the basic Jewish faith. It is also a declaration that the God of nature and the personal God who loves us is the same God. To paraphrase it, “Hear O Israel, the Lord IS Elohaynu (OUR God of nature), the Lord the One and ONLY.” EElohim is used exclusively for God in Gen. 1.Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis are connected by the words, “Yom Ha-shishi. Va-yichulu Ha-shamayim” (1:31-2:1), meaning “the sixth day. Thus the heaven” [and the earth and all their host were completed]. The initials of the four Hebrew words that connect the two chapters, YHVH, form the Name, the Lord. This is not only the Lord’s autographing His creation, like an artist signing a painting. It also confirms the plain meaning of Deut. 6:4, connecting the God of creation as the personal God of Adam.
Peace ande blessing,
Len
Dorothy wrote:
"Let those who wish to stay anonymous do so without attack. They just don't want to put up with the kind of personal attention I've had to deal with because I'm Jewish."
Then she wrote:
"Maryanne is set for a fight against anonymous posters, yet supports Joyce who we know nothing about...her full name, her affiliated organizations, her location, and where she goes on all of those trips."
Sounds like a double standard to me. Dorothy seems to want to have it both ways- allow the nasty anonymous posters free reign but reign in Joyce whose last name has not been revealed .
Thanks anonymous 2:52. It's all starting to make sense now.
As a lurker here for a while it seems to me that there are a lot of people being attacked on this blog for no reason, other than they disagree with certain key people.
Thanks anonymous 2:52 for the heads up.
Oh there are a few of you posters with "names" who can out-nssty anyone on this blog!!! LOL
Go take a LONG look in the mirror.
The TRUTH is that the Jews and the Catholics just got sick and tired of being targets -- and decided to do something about it and fight back.
THAT's what some of you just can't seem to handle. You had such a "free reign" for awhile anyway.
We got tired of turning the other cheek -- and are now turning another "cheek." LOL
Now, just get over it!!!
As anotehr lurker here that has been afraid to speak up I'll just say that I thought it kinda unlikely that someone like Constance who is a laywer , researching New Age stuff and Javier Solana and who has a fancy MAC computer with good secutiry would not know who is posting on this site at all times.
I think anonymous 3:38 is trying to tell us that Constance has our Ip addresses and loccations and therefore knows who is posting what here.
the discouraging thing is that with all the people that have been maligned here,for reasons that didn't make sense to me, there was always a way to stop it but it didn't happen.
It doesn't seem like this is a healthy place for Christians, although I do like sarah and Rudi and a couple others here like SV who seem kind and without a MO.
Thank-you anonymous 2:52 for making us more aware that this is not necessarily a good place for Chrisitans who love Jesus.
Jews and Catholics being maligned?
Joyce is a Jew. No one is picked on more here than Joyce.
Maryanne mentioned a while back that she's a Quaker and a Jew.
Why are you picking on her?
Dorothy isn't the only Jew here and she doesn't have a right to criticize others since there is still something called freedom of speech last time I looked!
This website is very odd but now it's starting to make sense.
A great big thank-you to anonymous 2:52 for opening up my eyes to what I long suspected!
To Anonymous (7:43 PM)
This is a very "healthy place" for TRUE Christians who follow the command of Jesus to "love thy neighbor as thyself" (not love ONLY thy Protestant evangelical "neighbor" -- but NOT thy Catholic or ORTHODOX Jewish neighbor.
"None are so blind as those who can not see" . . .
People who refuse to see who is being "maligned" on this blog are either clueless, insensitive, or dishonest with themselves.
It's really quite simple actually.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it all out, people!!!
It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out people.
You'll know them by their fruits.
To Anonymous (7:50 PM):
Joyce's arrogance often makes her a "target." All of us could learn a little more humility on this blog.
Let's see Maryanne is a "Quaker, a Jew" (and she once said also a FORMER Catholic) -- so, you would think that she would be more tolerant and less combative toward others on this blog.
Okay lets review some of the fruits that have reared their head on this blog thread against the Messianic Jews and evangelicals here:
Dorothy says:
YG
For all of the wisdom some claim to see in Joyce's comments, I have yet to see anyone become a Messianic Jew as result of her comments. I am presuming you will be the first.
Dorothy
JOYCE
Maryanne a Jew, and by extension a already a Messianic Jew? I'll bet that's news to her. Since she likes your themes so much I am sure you can direct her to a meeting place where she will feel very much at home. Then you can work on find a Messianic Jewish home for Paul. He's just too shy to ask this for himself.
************************************************************************
PAINTDANCER
Pray all you want. It's good for your soul. Religious belief requires faith because it requires a person to believe the words of others without concrete proof. I do not have faith in Christianity. I do not accept the words in the New Testament as God inspired although they may contain some brilliant advice.
If it was my way or none, I would work to take apart Christian beliefs, but there is no point in doing that because for all of its weaknesses, Christianity has a good effect on its followers. Without it there would be more paganism, and that's not a good thing. Judaism is too intellectually demanding. Muslim belief can lead too easily to fanaticism. Moral people can be found among atheists, agnostics, pagans, and even occultists, but there is no community of advisors or a common belief on what is moral, so temptation toward immoral behavior has a field day.********************************************************************
Anonymous says:
MARYANN
"so convince me that Jesus is not who he says he was and then I won't have to pray for you to be saved anymore."
???
Are you for real? You are so full of yourself it simply beggars belief.
I thought you were leaving this blog because it was "bad" for you spiritually. Maybe you would reconsider that impulse? Or at least post something about the New Age movement instead of typing into the computer screen like you are talking to your therapist?
Dorothy says:
MARYANN
"so convince me that Jesus is not who he says he was and then I won't have to pray for you to be saved anymore."
???
Are you for real? You are so full of yourself it simply beggars belief.
I thought you were leaving this blog because it was "bad" for you spiritually. Maybe you would reconsider that impulse? Or at least post something about the New Age movement instead of typing into the computer screen like you are talking to your therapist?
Anonymous 12:16 said:
To Maryanne/YG (8:27 PM & 10:34 PM)
WOW . . . it looks like I have really missed out on a lot being away from this blog for a few days (both reading as well as posting).
Now, that I've caught up - you need to know that even though you and I debated a few threads back, I am NOT the anonymous poster from either 1:47 PM or 9:54 PM.
So, it looks like maybe you have two new anyonmous posters who you believe are "harassing" you? I guess maybe they're all evil "Freemasons" who are simply out to get you. LOL
Dear, have you considered therapy? You seem to have a problem with both reason and logic.
There are many people who choose to post anonymously on Constance's blog . . . and none of us feel the need to explain or apologize to you for doing so.
Have a nice day.
Dorothy says:
TO EVERYONE WHO READS HERE
Joyce doesn't understand Judaism though she pretends she does. She is no longer a Jew as she has converted to Christianity.
Anonymous said:
Young Grasshopper:
Are the techniques you exhibit on this forum something they teach at your church for converting "non-believers," or did you come up with them yourself?
Anonymous said:
"GOLDFISH BRAIN?"
Maryann,
Someone did use the simile that Paul had the "memory of a goldfish" but no one here has ever called Paul a "goldfish brain." If you disagree with me, and have read something that I didn't, produce the link.
With your self-described sensitivity to the arts, one would think you would be capable of understanding the difference between the terms "goldfish brain" and "memory of a goldfish."
Anonymous said:
Joyce (2:20),
Who exactly have you "converted" with your testimony in the many months you have been giving it here?
I'd be curious about your rate of success.
Anonymous said:
I would like to get something off my chest.
As an outsider and frequent reader of this blog, I have noticed something very disturbing. There is a clear lack of RESPECT from certain posters (e.g. Joyce, Maryanne, Paul) toward others' religious beliefs on this blog.
The end result is that the "offended" posters justifiably feel the need to defend themselves against their antagonizers. Next, "the big 3" tend to step up their antagonism, play the "victim" role, and try to manipulate and influence the rest of the bloggers.
**********************************
Good stuff people. by their fruits they will be known.
In defence of Maryann/ Young Grashopper I must say that you people are on a total witch hunt!
I have spoken to her on the phone and she is one of the kindest , sympathetic and most tolerant people I have ever met!
If you persecute people for no reason other than they question what you say, you are the hypocrites!
To anonymous 8:23
No one said this blog is controlled by one person. In fact, the village idiot alluded to a conspiracy.
Smoke and mirrors - smoke and mirrors.
Hey Noahide,
Your days are numbered too!
To Anonymous (8:40 PM)
And your point is . . .???
How do you figure that people who choose to defend themselves are on a "witch hunt"???
That absolutely makes no sense whatsoever!!!
But, let's not let "logic" enter the picture here.
Hmmmmmmmm.....
Seems based on the comments of anonymous 5:29 and anonymous 6:01, that the Idiot is smarter than we think.
Seems the mutant (can't tell if it's male or female based on the French) has breached the code.
Houston, we have a problem here.
anon 8:04
I'm with you,to many do not know when they are maligning anothers religion, And thank you Len for setting so much straight from the jewish religion,
For others Joyce was a jew now she is not, you can not have two gods and be a jew, Same for Maryann.
YS
To Anonymous (8:45 PM)
Regarding your quote: "No one said this blog is controlled by one person."
The Anonymous poster of 2:52 PM said something very similar:
"Dorothy runs the blog and acts as the Gulag here against anyone who disagrees with her way of thinking."
And I believe that I know Dorothy well enough to say that she has absolutely no desire to either "run" or "control" this blog.
YS has spoken!
YAyyyyy!!!!!!!!!
MAryann and Joyce are worshiping false Gods since they can't be Jewish and accept Messiah too!!
Wow this is heavy YS!
Burn them at the stake! Burn them at the stake!
So glad I turned off the TEVO!
This is entertainment that money can't buy!
MH
To YS (9:07 PM)
Thank you so much for your support. It was starting to feel "lonely" here tonight. LOL
God bless you.
To MH (9:14 PM):
We're happy when you're happy.
Glad to have you join us.
To Anonymous (9:12 PM)
"Burn them at the stake"???
Maybe you've been watching too many bad movies lately.
Don't you think you're over-reacting -- just a little? LOL
Anonymous 9:15
Sixth and Green is the one place in November
When the air is cold and the leaves blow on the ground
And I don't think that I can even remember
Why it was that I came to this town
'Cause I just wanna be lonely tonight
Just me and my maker in this cold moon light
yeah yeah, oh yeah, alright
This is me on the eve of an ending
It's what i've known is constant for a year
I'm so scared this pain that I will be sending
Sometimes I just wanna run away in fear
'Cause I just wanna be lonely tonight
Just me and my maker in this cold moon light
yeah yeah oh yeah alright
Matt Wertz fan
To Matt Wertz fan:
Amen brother!
Oh, please help me . . .
the paranoids are out to get me!!!
anon 8:47
Would you happen to know what that number is, it would be helpful.
YS-Noahide
ANONYMOUS 7:36 PM
It's Maryanne who is so interested in getting others to divulge information on themselves, yet she pairs with who has not publicly given out any information on herself. Frankly I couldn't care less about Joyce's background. I never asked for that information. Frankly it would be information of no use to me. She can call herself Santa Claus, but without documentation I don't have to believe it.
ANONYMOUSE 7:16 PM
Smoke and mirrors? Cute. Anyone who has ever researched communist front activity knows about infiltration. Phelps can be working for any number of intelligence agencies, setting up front operations gathering names and information; he can be a kook who loves to play "Let's pretend"; or he can be something in between.
All this is no thing. It probably goes back even further than the story of the Trojan horse.
ANONYMOUS 7:50
You can call a car a table, but it remains a table. Joyce and Maryanne are not Jews. Joyce may have her country of origin on common with some Jews, but she doesn't have a religion in common with them.
Maryanne wrote: "On dad's side I've recently found out I'm Jewish." Maryanne is a proud Christian as anyone who reads what she has written on her website. The generational connection in Judaism is through the mother.
The only Jewish posters here are YS, Len and me, and until recently I was the only one. Get your facts straight buster.
ANONYMOUS 7:43
I don't criticize Christians or Christianity, but I will speak up when information about Jews and Judaism is distorted. It's freedom of speech as you say.
Dorothy
To anonymous 9:24;
Please don't be paranoid, just take the Redeemer's hand...
"Take my hand to the promise land
And on You I want to stand
‘Cause I cannot do it on my own
You're what I need and I need to be
Right by Your side ‘cause I cannot hide
Lord, I know that I need You
Na na na na na na na na na, I need You
Na na na na na na na na na, I need You
Without You I'm so alone
I am weak but You are strong
You pick me up when I'm falling down
And I am crying
Out to You inside of my heart
I need You, Lord, oh so, for the part
I want You to have my life, Jesus
I fall to my knees
And I'm begging You, please, oh, Lord
Won't You change me
Make me new from the inside out
I want to shout out Your name"
Love in Him,
Another anonymous coward that agrees with Anonymous 2:52.
What's with all of the conversion efforts. Is there a prize of $100 out there for every Jew that is converted? Is there some kind of tipping point that says if there is a certain number of Christians in the world the Messiah will come?
Actually, there is: "Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not think you are superior: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in"
Anyway, this blog seems to have lost its focus. Instead of reporting on major events and developments, we now get a news flash every time Solona sneezes. Book-length comments about who's a real Jew are beginning to sound a lot like the debate over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The pots and kettles are calling each other black. It's a soap opera, and I never did like those.
And what progress has been made, toward what goal? I originally came here to read about major events in the relentless march toward the global government, since I'm an avid student of Bible prophecy and it's fascinating to watch it all play out. But now, it's post after post about every little thing, and comment after comment shooting messengers and burning straw men. I can't keep wading through all this to find what I'm really interested in.
I'm an Occam's Razor kind of Bible student, so I don't try to ram every day's news into Revelation and Daniel. I believe that anything as monumental as the AC's confirmed treaty wouldn't be happening in the dark corners of the internet, but splashed on the drive-by media's home pages and on all the talk shows. It won't be done in secret or obscurity. But I already know how such a contrary view is received here, and I won't belabor it.
I see the disintegration of evangelical Christianity as no different than that of the endless infighting of all the other religions. What matters, from what I see in the Bible, is not liturgies or histories or chains of command, but a restored relationship with God:
2 Cor. 5:14-21 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
That's what matters. That's what Jesus came to do. This isn't religion but relationship, not performance but purification, not legalism but love. If anyone is interested, here are two documents I've written that I hope convey the essentials of the gospel:
simple
detailed
All those centuries of religion, and many enjoy the structure, but this is what matters.
Farewell.
Hey guys,
Just wanted to show how anonymous postings have nothing relevant to say about truth because they hide behind their anonymity.
Hope I made my point.
I am DEFINITELY done here.
Good luck all. I do love you all in spite of what you may think of me.
Hope we had some fun here while pursuing truth, and may the truth set you free.
Love in Jesus,
The Idiot Savante.
PS: Whatever hateful things you have to say about me- I am done here and will not be coming back now that I have a grip on the MO here. You're in my prayers tonight!
Hallelujah!
To Anonymous (9:44 PM)
Well, aren't you also hiding behind your "anonymity"???
Signing a "name" does not make one poster any more credible than any other poster.
I could call myself "Linda" and it may make you feel more comfortable like you KNOW me, but the truth is that you wouldn't know me at all.
You say, "in spite of what you think of me" -- but exactly which "anonymous" are you for us to even form an opinion of you???
Dear Judy,
You wrote: Judaism has take things from Torah and added the rabbis opinions to them.
I would have liked to see an example. But do you know who was the first to add his “opinions” to Torah? Moses; that’s who!
The sages of blessed memory were following the command of God by interpreting things for people that they did not understand. While I don't usually use Jesus as a citation, he himself said, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. (Matthew 23:2&3)" What does it mean to sit in Moses' seat? Isn't it ironic that Christians accuse Jews of making things up about law at the same time they do not follow it whatsoever???
You may recall that, soon after the Decalogue at Sinai, Moses was wearing himself out as magistrate settling disputes (Ex. 18:13-16). His father in law (a Gentile, BTW) suggested that he set up an organization to help (Ex. 8:17-26). Moses did *not* respond: "No; that would be making up our own traditions and customs and replace them for God's word." Moses thought Jethro's advice good and followed it, delegating authority to others for deciding what God's written word meant.
Then God said to Moses, "Come up to The LORD, with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel." The Sanhedrin was instituted by Moses himself (Ex. 24:1), pursuant to God's direction. "Sanhedrin" is the Greek word for the Hebrew "zekaynim," meaning elders, used in this verse. And, in Num. 11, "[Moses] gathered seventy of the people's elders and stationed them around the tent, Then The LORD came down in a cloud and spoke to him; He drew upon the spirit that was on [Moses] and put it on the seventy elders." (Vs. 24-25)
What kind of God-given authority did these elders have?
"You shall appoint magistrates (or judges) and officials and they shall govern the people with justice." (Deut. 17:18) This is exactly what the Sanhedrins were, with the Great Sanhedrin of 71 elders being the equivalent of the Supreme Court, sitting over a time span of many hundreds of years. The Talmud is the result of their adjudications; ie, the Supreme Court's deliberations, including the minority as well as majority opinions. All these judgments became what is known as the Oral Law. They all derive from Sinai and, it is said, that God gave Moses the entire Oral and written law at that time. This means that the Oral Law is nothing more than an explanation and elaboration for the Written Law. This is similar to the way the US works. The courts are co-equal to the executive and legislative branches of government, and they decide what the law means when there is disagreement.
"If a case is too baffling for you to decide you shall promptly repair to the place that The LORD your God will have chosen and appear before the levitical priests or the magistrate *in charge at the time*, and present your problem. When they have announced their verdict in the case, you shall carry out the verdict that is announced to you from the place that The LORD chose, observing scrupulously all their instructions to you. You shall act in accordance with the instructions given you and the ruling handed down to you; you must not deviate from the verdict that they announce to you either to the right or to the left. Should a man act presumptuously and disregard the priest ... or the magistrate, that man shall die. Thus will you sweep out evil from Israel." (ibid., 17:8-12)
Most people do not connect these verses with the Talmud. it is easy to misunderstand the written law. It is, in many places, very general rather than very detailed. For example, exactly what constitutes murder? What if it's accidental? What if injury, not death, was intended? What if death was intended, but the wrong person died? What if someone dies because of my carelessness, rather than my intent to commit harm? If two of us are wandering in a desert, and there is only water for one, has the survivor murdered the other?
How should one observe the Sabbath? Should one avoid "work" in the physicist's sense of the word? In the labor economist's sense? Is it "work" if one enjoys doing it? If I do it without pay, is it "work"? If a priest or rabbi works, is it work? The commandment is very vague, as are many others.
Some laws are even written in ways that appear to contradict their true meaning; "an eye for an eye" for example, which was always interpreted to mean monetary compensation, but which on a surface reading seems to call for physical revenge of the cruelest sort. In Deut. 12:20-27, where we are given permission to slaughter animals and eat meat outside the context of sacrifice, v. 21 says we may slaughter "as I [God] have commanded you" but that command giving instructions for the method of slaughter is nowhere to be found in the *written* Torah; the instructions are detailed in the oral law. Yet the written Torah says explicitly that we are to slaughter following the rules we have been given, referring to the rules of slaughter given only in the oral law.
Remember the incident of the inheritance of the daughters of Tzelafchad, who ask Moses whether they can inherit from their father, who left no sons (Num. 27:1-11)? Moses asks God and comes back with an answer. If the written law is supposed to be complete, and no oral law is necessary, why does Moses have to ask God.
Finally consider Daniel, who would not eat the king's food or drink his wine (Dan. 1:8), and said his prayers thrice daily while facing Jerusalem. (Dan. 6:11) Where did he learn all this? It is not in the Pentateuch but it is in the Oral Law.
So next time you consider criticizing “the rabbis” or the Talmud please be aware that you are also criticizing the Torah. That does not mean rabbis can do no wrong. Just as in US law there is a Halakhic system for responding to inquiries and settling disputes.
Peace and blessing,
Len
To Anonymous (9:44 PM):
Is that YOU, Maryanne / Young Grasshopper -- "hopping" in and out of this blog.
How many times have you said "good-bye" to us lately???
We just know that you'll be back, because you can't seem to stay away from us.
To Len:
I haven't had a chance to tell you yet, but you are like a "breath of fresh air" with your very intelligent postings.
Welcome aboard.
Dear Judy,
You observed that “Judaism doesn't have a Temple, animal sacrifices, a Holy of Holies where the High Priest goes once a year to make atonement for the people.” Are you bragging or complaining? It seems like the former because of your follow-up assertion that “Judaism is what developed when the Jews were punished by God for their disobedience and scattered among the nations.”
Of course Jews were scattered twice; after the destructions of both the first and second Temples. Then you wrote: “They developed a synagogue system, the oral traditions which they claim go back to Moses but have no proof of.”
The implication of your comments is that you prefer the sacrificial system and are unhappy with “inauthentic” synagogues, and oral traditions. I discussed the oral tradition in the previous message and showed you how it was exactly in accordance with Torah. In His wisdom God provided for such contingencies. Let me review the historic record relating to the end of sacrifice and the rise of rabbinic Judaism:
Introduction
The transition of Judaism from a temple/priest/sacrifice-oriented religion to its present form is described below. First I want to preclude any possible impression that we’re glad to be rid of sacrifice. Many are horrified at the thought of resuming them. Unless one is a vegetarian, however, sacrifices were not so horrible when you consider the items below. I owe much of the thought on this to Dennis Prager who discussed sacrifice in his cassette-audio-taped lecture series, “The Case For Judaism.” You can obtain a list of his tapes at http://www.dennisprager.com/.
1. Most of the sacrifices were eaten (Jer. 7:21). At least, then, people were aware that the food they were getting came from God. Nowadays, people get it in McDonald’s or in shrink-wrap in a supermarket and never think twice about where the meat came from, let alone offer thanks for it. While it seems barbaric to shed blood, compare the sacrificial bloodshed with what people do now. The average person watches thousands of murders on television, and in the movies, during his lifetime; and for no purpose other than entertainment. At least, then, people recognized the bloodshed as a means of survival, and performed the sacrificial ritual as a rite of thanksgiving.
2. In view of (1), sacrifices may be considered to be for the benefit NOT of God, who certainly doesn’t need them, but for the human. This is an analogous view to that of prayer. God doesn’t benefit when we testify that He is blessed; we do. The Hebrew word for prayer is, l’hit-palayl, which is in the reflexive form. Prayer is considered as an operation on *oneself*. As for many other commandments, prayer and sacrifice were partly for the purpose of increasing awareness in the individual. This comparison is significant because prayer has replaced sacrifice in Judaism, and most of the services are at the same time as, and in remembrance of, corresponding sacrificial services.
3. Sacrifice is also beneficial as an antidote to acquisitiveness, selfishness and self-centeredness. It is analogous to the commandment not to glean the corners of the field, but to leave it for the poor.
Sacrifice in Temple Only
While the laws of sacrifice are given in the Torah, and sacrifice may someday be reinstituted, it had very limited use, even when practiced regularly. Dr. J. H. Hertz summarizes this in his commentary (The Soncino Chumash (Pentateuch), Pg. 409): “With very few exceptions (Lev. 5:1, 20-26), deliberate sins are excluded from the sphere of sacrifice; and in all cases, repentance and restitution of the wrong done must precede the sacrificial act.”
Moreover, sacrifice was restricted to places of God’s choosing. This was not always in the Temple, but there was no such place after its destruction.
“These are the law and rules that you must carefully observe in the land that The Lord, God of your fathers, is giving you to possess --- . You must destroy all sites at which the nations, you are to dispossess, worship their gods ---. Do not worship The Lord your God in like manner, but look only to the site that The Lord, your God, will chose amidst all your tribes as His habitation, to establish His Name there. --- Take care not to sacrifice your burnt offerings in any place you like. --- You shall not act at all as we act here, every man as he pleases, because you have not yet come to the allotted haven that The Lord your God is giving you. When you cross the Jordan and settle in the land that The Lord your God is allotting you --- then you must bring everything that I command you to the site where The Lord your God will chose ---; your burnt offerings and other sacrifices ---. Take care not to sacrifice your burnt offerings in any place you like, but only in the place that The Lord will chose in one of your tribal territories (Deut.12:1-14).”
The land is located in present day Israel, but the site is in the Holy Temple. Instituting sacrifice anywhere else would therefore be a violation of the above commandment. Therefore, Jews presently follow the laws of sacrifice exactly.
Weaning from Sacrifice
Rabbi Reuven Kimelman, in his article “Leadership and Community in Judaism (Tikkun, Vol. 2, No. 5) provides the history of the weaning process, and the rise of rabbinic Judaism. The following is excerpted from this article:
“The fall of Judea and the destruction of the Temple by Babylon in 586 BCE were watersheds in biblical religion. No other ancient culture survived the destruction of its temple, the devastation of its capital, and the exile of its leadership. --- Lacking authority to offer sacrifices on foreign soil, however, the priests’ special status and authority weakened. Since priestly mediated atonement was no longer available, alternative schemes for reinstatement into God’s good grace could make headway.
“The major alternative was that of the prophets and teachers. They not only had an explanation --- but a tradition and a literature from which to ferret out ways of reconciliation. Thus, the quest for atonement and expiation led to the study of sacred teachings as the indispensable religious activity. --- Books tended to displace the cult as the source of the sacred for the people.---
“As intrinsic holy space was no longer available, intrinsic holy time gained in prominence. --- The Sabbath assumed greater significance than it had before the exile. --- The [exile] sowed the seed which allowed Judaism to germinate into a book-teacher-Sabbath-community-centered religion in contrast to a sacrifice-priest-temple-land-centered religion. --- A territory-limited national religious culture was transmuted into a world-portable religious community.
“When the Jews returned to Jerusalem these differences --- caused conflict ---[with respect to] the locus of the sacred. --- The returnees obliged all in the knowledge of Torah by having a public reading and explication of Scripture. {This] led to the development of Scriptural hermeneutics, [which], in turn, worked to undermine the belief that Scripture is limited to its literal meaning. --- These developments were all in the direction of enlarging the community subject to Torah and increasing [its] application to life.
Beginning Rabbinic Judaism
“Once it became apparent that the priesthood’s access to the sacred need not be exclusive, the path leading to its obsolescence was embarked upon. Isaiah --- foresaw the day when people would be called “priests of the Lord --- (Isa. 61:6).” The public reading of the Torah [around 444 B.C.E.] marks the transformation from the exilic period into a permanent theological reality. The critical stages of this change are documented in three chapters of the Book of Nehemiah. Chapter Eight reports that care was taken to render the Torah comprehensible to all the people. Chapter Nine describes the public ceremony of atonement. --- No priestly confirmation was required. --- Chapter Ten emphasizes that, besides the priests and Levites, all the rest of the people undertook to walk according to the Law of God and to observe and practice all His commandments.
“Although it is true that Rabbinic Judaism emerges full-blown only centuries later, [as a result of] the destruction of the Second Temple, --- its seeds were already sown by the prophets ---. [Jeremiah] was --- the prophet most anxious to point out the contingency of the Temple in the scheme of biblical religion by proclaiming that God had not originally intended to require the sacrificial system (Jer. 7:22, cf. Lev. 23:37). Instead, Jeremiah held to the position, as did others, that Israel’s adherence to God’s word [in other respects] and covenant suffices for them to become His people (Jer. 7:23, 11:4; cf. Exod. 19:5).---
“The rabbis used the language of the past --- only to endow them with new meaning. The language of the Temple cult was enlisted in the service of the rabbinic programs of piety, which dared nothing less than the sanctification of a whole people. In this way the rabbis turned the world into the Temple by making all of life a religious experience. They hammered this idea into Jewish consciousness by forming new blessings. These blessings were for the performance of mitzvot (commandments), the enjoyment of the world, the washing of hands, and the study of Torah. --- All Israel was obliged to --- assume heretofore priestly roles --- patterned after Temple ritual ---. ‘Holiness was not given to the priests alone,’ the rabbis believe, ‘but to the priests, to the Levites and to the rest of Israel, [as it is said], ‘Speak to the community of Israel and say, You shall be holy (Lev. 19:10)’” ---
“Domestic life, according to the rabbis, should take on the importance of the Temple cult. Just as the Temple served as the locus of the indwelling presence of God and a place of atonement, domestic peace --- draws in the Divine Presence and the [dining-room] table functions as an alter: ‘As long as the Temple stood, the alter atoned for Israel, but now a man’s table atones for him [in two senses].’ One context [is] feeding the poor [which involves showing them hospitality]. Extending hospitality could be on a par with the daily sacrifice (Talmud, Berakhot 10b). --- Washing before eating became a requirement just as priests ‘washed upon entering the tabernacle and upon approaching the alter.’”
Study of Torah/Sacrifice
“[Study] was considered tantamount to participation in the Temple cult. This, and prayer--- equivalent to the daily sacrifice. Studying the [biblical] --- laws of the sin offering was accredited as if one had actually offered the required sacrifice. --- It is no wonder that ‘a sage’s public exposition of Torah was as if he had offered fat and blood on the alter (Abot deRabbi Natan 4).’ Indeed the study of Torah could elevate one to the level of the High Priest. One rabbi went so far as to assert that “one who occupies himself with [study] has no need of the burnt offering, the sin offering, the meal offering or the guilt offering (Midrash Tanhuma, aherei 10).” --- In the eyes of some, the expiation of Torah study exceeded that of prayer, fasts, good deeds and, --- sacrifices.
“[Christianity also] came up with replacements for the Temple cult ---. It laid claim to a purer cult [and] a more perfect sacrifice. This approach, [clinging] to cultic imagry --- held that sacrifice-expiation required death, whereas the remission of sins required the shedding of blood. Only one victim could become the lamb of God, and the high priesthood was limited to a singular victim. Locked into a biblical cultic imagery, it was impossible to go beyond the assumption that mediation is required to approach the Divine. It rested its claim only on the superiority of the mediation.
“The rabbis, however, transcended cultic imagery by promoting the centrality of Torah study. For them, language and thought serve as the equivalents of alter and sacrifice. Once logology replaces ontology, Torah study can be substituted for the sacrificial cult. By transforming language and thought into portals of the sacred, Torah study opened up the high priesthood of learning.
“What is the biblical basis for the cult of Torah replacing that of sacrifice? [The principal prophetic passages] extol the value of obedience and heartfelt prayer. The answer lies in the capacity of Torah study to obviate the need for mediation by recreating the pre-sanctuary reality of Sinai. --- Being the Holy of Holies, the Torah enables the shimmering of the Divine to be refracted through the human mind. --- Unsurprisingly, the rabbinic doctrine of life doubles as its doctrine of salvation (Abot 2:8, 6.9). Thus, we have the following Talmudic quotes: ‘Whoever reviews the [laws] may be assured of inclusion in the world to come.’ Moreover, ‘Whoever teaches Torah in this world will get to teach it in the next. For just as there are halakhic deliberations below, so are their halakhic deliberations above.’ ---The future life can be envisioned as a vast academy for the study of Torah with God Himself overseeing the deliberations.”
Peace and blessing,
Len
Dear Joyce,
I apologize for getting your name wrong in the prior message.
I have reviewed the Oral Law, end of sacrifice and rise of rabbinic Judaism. So when you say: “God meant for Israel to be a people under Torah,” I trust you understand that we still ARE under Torah – never left it as Christians did. Now I see a new criticism; that Judaism is intellectually demanding. Of course that is exactly why Christianity became so popular. It is sometimes called “Judaism light.”
In my Christian Bible the “Old Testament” occupies 1340 pages and the New Testament 340. That is a ratio of four. Then there is the Talmud’s 63 tractates that occupy about four feet of book shelves when translation is not included, the Midrash (exegetic parables), Responsa, the Code of Jewish Law, and the great philosophic works such as Maimonides and many others.
Traditionally, Judaism placed a premium on intellect and study. Children learned Hebrew soon after weaning and were thoroughly familiar with Scripture by the time of their bnai mitzvah. Even today in my synagogue a bar mitzvah boy, having a day school education, leads the entire service at age thirteen including perfectly chanting several chapters of a Torah scroll.
Yes, Judaism is intellectually demanding, but not too much so. In fact the Torah says: “Deut. 30:11 For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?" 14 Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it. “
At the same time, as the Talmud says: “An ignoramus cannot be pious.” One of the sad facts about too many of today’s non-Orthodox American Jews is their abysmal lack of Jewish education. (Are you among them?) Those are the ones who generally become secular (most of them) or Christian.
They have the intelligence but lack the education. Our problem is less “Jews for Jesus” than “Jews for Medicine” or “Jews for the Stock Market” (at least till this year:-) Do you think it’s an accident that Jews, who consist of about a quarter percent of world population, have over 20 percent of the Noble prizes, and are over-represented in the nation’s finest colleges and the professions?
If you want an easy non-demanding religion you went to the right place. But as the Talmud says,”In accordance with the effort is the reward.”
Peace and blessing,
Len
Dear Joyce,
I see you have brought out the old warhorse against Judaism: Isaiah Chapter 53. Isaiah 53 is one of my favorites. Please keep Jewish tragic history in mind while reading Isaiah 53. Also consider the chapters before and after 53 to keep it in context. If you can do all this you'll see the chapter the major way it was intended; a description of God's suffering servant, Israel. Several chapters leading up to 53 make this obvious. Similarly, several sentences make it clear that 53 is NOT referring to Jesus; that God is not planning for another god to enter history.
Isaiah 53 is the last song of the four "Servant Songs". These, found in Ch. 41-53, are so called because throughout these soothing chapters, the prophet foretells the glorious redemption of the righteous remnant of Israel who is repeatedly identified as God’s servant. Isaiah 53 is the culmination of Isaiah’s narrative which describes the Almighty’s servant-nation who, after a brutal and seemingly endless exile, is elevated and redeemed in the eyes of its former Gentile oppressors.
ISAIAH'S LEAD-IN
1. 41:8 "But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham My friend."
2. 41:9 "You whom I drew from the ends of the earth and called from its far corners, to whom I said, 'You are My servant; I chose you; I have not rejected you."
3. 42:1 "This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one in whom I delight. I have put My spirit on him. he shall teach the true way to the nations." If you have any doubt about whom this refers proceed to:
4. 42:6 "I, the Lord, in My grace have summoned you and I have grasped you by the hand. I created you and appointed you a covenant people, a light of nations." And, two sentences later, Verse 8 belies the claim that Isaiah is about to prophecy the advent of a God incarnate.
5. 42:8 "I am the Lord, that is My Name; I will not yield My glory to another, nor my renown to idols."
6. Of the suffering Israel, 42:22 says, "It is a people plundered and despoiled. All of them are trapped in holes, imprisoned in dungeons. They are given to plunder, with none to rescue them; to despoilment with none to say, 'Give back!' More in 43:1ff:
7. 43:1ff "Who created you O Jacob, who formed you O Israel: Fear not, for I will redeem you. I have singled you out by name. You are Mine. When you pass through water I will be with you; through streams, they shall not overwhelm you. When you walk through fire you shall not be scorched; through flame, it shall not burn you. For I, the Lord, am your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior."
8. 43:10-12 "'My witnesses (note plural form) are YOU,' declares the Lord. 'My servant, whom I have chosen. To the end that you may take thought, and believe in Me, and understand that I am He: before Me no god was formed, and after Me none shall exist; none but Me, the Lord. Besides me NONE can grant triumph. I alone foretold the triumph and I brought it to pass. I announced it, and no strange god was among you. So you are My witnesses,' declares the Lord."
9. 44:1,2 "Hear now, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!"
10. 44:6,8 "Thus said the Lord, the King of Israel, their Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is NO god but Me.--- There is no other rock; I know none."
11. 44:21,22 "Remember these things O Jacob, for you, Israel, are My servant. I fashioned you; you are my servant. O Israel, never forget me. I wipe away your sins like a cloud, your transgressions like mist. Come back to me for I redeem you."
12. 45:4-6 "For the sake of My servant, Jacob, Israel My chosen one, I call you by name; I hail you --- I am Hashem and there is NONE ELSE. Besides Me there is NO god."
13. 49:3,6 "And He said to me, 'You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.' --- 'It is too little that you should be My servant in that I raise up the tribe of Jacob and restore the survivors of Israel: I will also make you a light of nations, that My salvation may reach the ends of the earth."
14. 52:4,6,13,14 "'For thus,' said the Lord, 'you were sold for no price, and you shall be redeemed without money. --- Of old, My people went down to Egypt --- but Assyria robbed them, giving nothing in return. --- My people shall learn that I, the One who promised, am now at hand. --- Indeed My servant shall prosper, be exalted, raised to great heights. Just as the many were appalled at him; so marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, his form beyond human semblance."
After all the above, it is beyond credulity, and defies logic, that Isaiah would suddenly go off in a completely different direction with respect to:
1. Who the servant is.
52:13 says, "My servant shall prosper." Did Jesus ever prosper? Israel did during the subsequent reign of Hezekiah, and during other periods. See Is. 61:6-7, below.
2. That the newly defined servant is to be a god incarnate.
This would be an about face from all the statements that there would be no God but the Father.
Is. 53 paints the image of Israel suffering for the sins of the other nations, in their eyes. This is why the amazed kings introduce the chapter.
Isaiah 52:25 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.
Isaiah 53:1..."To whom is the Arm of the Lord revealed"?
Answer: To those gentile nations and those kings:
Isaiah 52:10
The LORD has bared His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and the ends of the earth shall see our God’s salvation.
Note that whenever Scripture talks of God's "arm" it is referring to saving Israel as in the Exodus where he brought Israel out "with a strong hand and outstreched arm." (Ie, Exod 6:6, Deut. 4:34,5:15, 7:19, 9:29, 11:2, 26:8, 2 Kings 17:36, Jer 32:21, Ezek 20:33-34, Ps. 136:11-12)
We do not believe that someone is punished for another's sins. Isaiah 53:4-5, 10 are therefore metaphoric; it is *as if* Israel was suffering vicariously for the other nations sins. Verse 11 pursues this theme: "My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears." But God will make it up to Israel for this suffering by giving them the land and causing them to prosper. Notice that the same idea is used in the following Ezekiel:
Ezek. 34:29 And I shall establish for them a plantation for renown, and they will no longer be hidden because of hunger in the land, and they will no longer bear the [iniquities] of the nations. 30 And they will know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they are My people, the house of Israel, says the Lord God. 31 And you are My flocks, the flocks of My pasture, you are man; I am your God," says the Lord God.
ISAIAH'S FOLLOW-UP
If, after all this, there is any doubt about who the righteous servant is, it should be dispelled by 60:21 and 61:6-9: "And your people, *all of them righteous*, shall possess the land for all time; they are the shoot that I planted, my handiwork in which I glory.... you shall be called 'Priests of Hashem,' and 'servants of our God.' You shall enjoy the wealth of nations and revel in their riches. Because your shame was double -- men cried, 'Disgrace is their portion' --Assuredly they shall have a double share in their land... Their offspring shall be known among the nations, their descendents in the midst of the peoples. All who see them shall recognize that they are a stock that Hashem has blessed."
And don't overlook the follow-up in Is. 54:
"The Holy One of Israel will redeem you--- the Lord has called you back as a forlorn and forsaken wife. Can one cast off the wife of His youth? says the Lord. For a little while I forsook you, but with vast love I will bring you back. In slight anger, for a moment, I hid My face from you; but with everlasting kindness I will take you back in love -- says the Lord your Redeemer.--- For the mountains may move and the hills be shaken, but My loyalty will never move from you, nor My covenant of friendship be shaken -- says the Lord Who takes you back in love."
Is. 53 makes Christians think of Jesus because of the following: -- that his appearance was marred, that he had no stately form, that he was despised and forsaken of men, that he was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief/sickness, that he was like one from whom men hide their faces, that he was oppressed and afflicted, that he did not open his mouth, that his grave was assigned to be with wicked men, that he was with a rich man in his death, that he interceded for transgressors, etc. All this sounds like a prophesy about an individual, not a metaphor.
But it need not apply to Jesus. He was quite handsome, from everything I have heard and from the depictions I have seen. "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and in physical growth, and in favor with God and men." (Luke 2:52) He was tall, wise and popular, often attracting crowds, and loyal followers (Luke 8:4, 7:11, 8:19, 45, 23:27, Matthew 4:25, 21:9). He was "glorified by all (Luke 4:14-15)."
The descriptions apply much more to the suffering Jewish nation, the (not always) righteous servant of God. Israel suffered partly as a result of God's punishment for their sins (Deut. 32:15-25), and partly as a means of refininement (Zech. 13:8-9, Malachi 3:2-3). "I will not leave you unpunished but will chastise you in measure." (Jer. 30:11)
ISAIAH WORKED OVER DEUT. 32
All this should not be surprising as it confirms the "swan song" of Moses in Deut. 32, for which Isaiah is a direct parallel. It describes, concisely, the entire story of Israel's sins, punishment and redemption, just as does Isaiah.
"So Jeshurun grew fat and kicked -- you grew gross and course -- He forsook the God who made him ... They sacrificed to demons, no-gods, gods they had never known, new ones who came but lately, who steered not your father's fears... [God] said, I will hide my countenance from them ... I will sweep misfortunes on them ...(Deut. 31:15-25)
"I might have reduced [Israel] to naught, made their memory cease among men, but for fear of taunts of the foe, their enemies who might misjudge and say, 'Our hand has prevailed...Were [Israel] wise, they would think on this...'How could one have routed a thousand, or put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, the Lord had given them up?' For their rock is not like our Rock, in our enemies own estimation." (ibid., 31:26-35)
"For the Lord will vindicate His people and take revenge for His servants, when He sees their might is gone... See that I am He; there is no god beside Me... O nations acclaim His people! For He will avenge the blood of His servants, wreak vengeance on His foes, and cleanse His people's land." (ibid., 31:36-43)
Peace and blessing,
Len
Idiot Savante,
I hope you find a more accommodating blog with link-minded individuals where you can feel at home. Or better yet, stay off the internet and commune with "real people."
Clearly this wasn't the blog for you.
Godspeed.
Dear Len,
Not sure I have the time to respond to all your posts..but I'll answer some of what you said.
I had no idea you were Jewish. I also had family murdered in the Holocaust. I would love to hear your background and how you came to become Christian. I see you do not consider yourself as such but the definition of a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus’ messianship and/or divinity. Such a belief is inimical to Torah. So you are a Jewish Christian or “Messianic Jew.” I have heard other such stories that usually boil down to someone having led a dissolute life till they were rescued by Christians.
****I was raised Catholic because our background was hidden. I rejected Catholicism when I was quite young. I turned to Yeshua when I was older, but never turned back to Catholicism because it was not the truth to me. I watched a number of people around me miraculously have their lives transformed by their relationship with Yeshua too ( who I still called Jesus at that time). Much later on I was sick and crying out for healing and wisdom and I discovered my Jewish roots, and the whole family history. I began to ask God a lot of questions as I was studying His Word.. He responded to my questions...I have actually had lots of miracles in my life, too numerous to describe here.. and I don't feel like this blog is the place to go into all these details. My relationship with Yeshua is not just based on theory.. He has touched my life in profound ways and the lives of many of my loved ones. I am a descendant of the House of Judah on both sides, I follow Torah, and I follow the Living Torah Yeshua.. Don't see any contradiction in my calling myself a Jew. I don't hold the rabbis up as experts on everything, since they don't follow my Jewish Messiah...Rabbinic authority doesn't conform to Torah. IN Torah, there are priests, prophets and Kings, not rabbis... If you want to say I am not part of the Talmudic system, I will agree with you, but I am a Jew.
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You have narrated how Judaism has evolved over the millennia and all this is largely correct. Jews today are the product of those on whose shoulders we stand. I am delighted that you understand the interaction of the Jewish sects in Jesus’ time and that saves me some work. I would like to propose for your consideration that Jesus being “hard on the Pharisees” may have been more in the editing of the New Testament than in actuality. In his book, “The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity,” Hyam Maccoby provides chapter and verse, many pages, showing how Jesus was basically a Pharisee based on the New Testament itself. The gospels attacked the Pharisees as hypocrites and would-be murderers: yet they convey an impression of the Pharisees as figures of immense authority and dignity. This ambivalence reflects the attitude of Christianity to Judaism itself; on the one hand, as allegedly outdated ritualism but, on the other, a panorama of awesome history, a source of authority and blessing, so that at all costs the church must portray itself as the New Israel, the true Judaism.
*****No, I believe Yeshua was hard on the Pharisees because they were putting their traditions over Torah. In the series of talks called the Sermon on the Mount. Yeshua reveals the heart of Torah. IT was said, that.....but I say...
I don't believe the Church is the New Israel either. I believe God will be faithful to the physical descendants of Jacob as He promised, but because the Northern Kingdom became "not a people" and because the Jews weren't perfect either, we need redemption. I believe the word "ekklesia" which is used in the Greek Septuagint was wrongly translated "church" in the Gospels and Epistles. The called out assembly and the qahal and the ekklesia are one in the same. I believe God was dealing with the physical descendants of Jacob, but there were ALWAYS foreigners who attached themselves. In fact Moses, Joseph and others were married to foreign women. Rahab was a Cananite, but she attached herself to Israel and she and her household were saved.
In the book of Ezekiel, chapters 48 for example which talks about the Millennial Kingdom. Israels tribal inheritances are intact, but aliens dwell among them Israelite tribes. In the Second Temple period there were God fearers who attached to Israel, prior to Yeshua's death and resurrection.. I believe this is the model for the kehila or qahal. We will ultimately be "echad". The problem is right now until Mashiach comes back and straightens everyone out..there is too much division for us to be one.
You have not addressed ( at least as far as I can see) the need for blood to forgive sin. What have all these generations of Israelites done without a Temple and the functioning priesthood. This is a a fundamental problem which Judaism deals with by saying people can do good works?
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The motive for the Pharisee/Sadducee New Testament flip was to discredit the Pharisees who were the Jews’ chief religious authorities; not the Sadducees. By the time the Christian Bible was redacted the Sadducees had lost all influence. It was important for the Gospels to represent Jesus as a rebel against the Jewish religion.
******I don't think Yeshua was a rebel against the Torah, but I think He rejected the corruption that existed in 2nd Temple Judaism and some of the hypocrisy of the leaders, not to mention some of the bad interpretation of the word. He called people to the heart of Torah..which was to follow God with all your heart, like the rich young ruler who obeyed all the commandments. Yeshua said, there is one thing he needed to do, to give up all his possessions and follow Him. The young man couldn't do this. He didn't ask everyone to do that, but because He was God and saw that young man's heart was too attached to his possessions, He required that of him. That would fall into idolatry, and Yeshua could see through him that he could not put God first.
Most of his followers if not all came from the Pharisees. There is no recorded record of a Sadducee who believed in Yeshua. It's possible that there were, but none known.
Jesus may have lived Torah perfectly as you say (I wasn’t there:-), but Paul represented Torah as impossible to live perfectly so humanity must consequently be saved from the curse of the Torah (Rom. 3:28).
*****Yeshua lived Torah perfectly because while He was human, He is also God born of the Ruach HaKodesh. Humans cannot and do not live Torah perfectly. At least I know I can't...
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You wrote “that Yeshua, gave correct interpretation to Torah, because He was the Word, that became flesh and dwelt among us.” There is an interesting book, “A Rabbi Talks With Jesus,” by Jacob Neusner. He analyzes what are arguably Jesus’ most Jewish statements like the Sermon on the Mount. and concludes that even these are philosophically contradictory to Judaism because of nuances like “But I say ---.”
*****I don't doubt Yeshua contradicted Judaism. He was God and was able to give full meaning to the Torah. What He was saying was...here are the rules, don't kill, but I'm telling you if you you insult your brother by calling him an idiot you have "killed". I was just studying Torah with a rabbi recently and he agreed that the command "thou shall not kill" is much more than just the taking of someone's life. If someone's husband is looking at porn, has he not commit adultery in his heart? Of course he has. This is what Yeshua was saying. He knew that sin starts in the heart..
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Incidentally, the Acts verse you cite, “ that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. “ are four of the Noahite laws. Some have noted that there were many gentile Noahites who lived among the Jews in Jesus’ time and that Paul (in this case probably Luke) was simply preaching them and not Christianity. See also Romans 11:9.
*****That is a subject of great controversy. I don't believe there are "Noachide laws". I know rabbis say this, but again. The dietary laws of Leviticus say to not eat blood. Pig was not considered food, so it wouldn't have even been discussed, same with other "unclean animals". In fact Noah knew the difference between "clean and unclean" animals because when he filled the ark, he took 7 sets of clean animals and only pairs of unclean, so even Noah made the distinction. How did he know this? Evidently, God had revealed it. It's interesting on the one hand before Torah the rabbis say this, but then they say that when Abraham sat down and offered his guests milk and meat there was a six hour gap.. Now Torah had not been given to Abraham, ( even though Torah doesn't say not to eat any meat with milk, just not to cook the calf in the milk of it's own mother) so there is an inconsistency here in what the rabbis say. Torah either was or wasn't revealed prior to Mt. Sinai to the men who were righteous like Noah. My understanding is that strangling was also a method used to kill pigs. I don't agree that there is such a thing as Noachide Laws... there is Torah period.
Continued:
Joyce
Dear Joyce,
You wrote: “The Jews are supposed to be a light to the nations and teach Torah, along with the rest of Israel which has now lost it's identity due to exile and assimilation ( the other 10 tribes).“ On the Other hand the Torah also says of Israel: “For from their beginning, I see them as mountain peaks, and I behold them as hills; it is a nation that will dwell alone, and will not be reckoned among the nations. (Num. 23:9)”
This is the normative, though not exclusive, Orthodox view. It is why Orthodox Jews will rarely be found in a milieu like this. The Fall, 1990 issue of the Orthodox Union publication, Jewish Action, was devoted to a symposium, Israel and the Nations. I will briefly excerpt some quotes from it on both sides of the issue.
Rabbi Emmanuel Feldman
Can the vision of the prophets -- that the truths of Torah will ultimately be recognized by the nations -- be fulfilled if Israel remains a people apart? If we do not even talk to them, how can we guide them? ... Is the Messianic vision to come about through a cosmic miracle, with no effort on [our] part, so that at the end of days God presses a Divine button and Israel’s light suddenly shines on a darkened world? The question ... is vexing and paradoxical. On the one hand we are separated.... ‘I have separated you from the Nations to be Mine’ (Lev. 20:26), to be a kingdom of priests (Ex. 19:6); ... and we are described as ‘a people dwelling alone which does not reckon among the nations,’ (Num. 23:9), with an entire Halakha designed to keep us apart, including warnings about ... intermingling ... and ... intermarriage. On the other hand, we are told that we will be a “light unto the nations,’ and that they will ultimately join Israel in acceptance of the truths of the One God and His teachings (Is. 2:2-4); and as we read the Rosh Hashanah liturgy, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
“These opposing tendencies are not contradictions. They underscore the concept that it is precisely its apartness that enables Israel to bring its influence to bear on the world. Apartness has as its purpose the preservation of Israel, so that it can remain the kingdom of priests which brings sanctity to an unsacred world. Through our separateness -- one of the meanings of the word, kadosh -- we are able to teach mankind. This is the great paradox of Jewish existence.
“All this is clearly adumbrated in the Alaynu prayer that we recite thrice daily, and that is the centerpiece of the High Holy Day Musaf service. It refers to tikun olam, the “correcting” or “mending” of the world; it expresses hope for the time when mankind will bow before God as they concede the truths of His teachings; and it is climaxed by the famous prophecy of Zechariah 14:9 that, “in that day God will be One and His Name will be One.” But a careful reader will note an apparent contradiction: all this seems to fly in the face of the preceding section of the Alaynu, in which we praise God for not having “made us like the Nations of the earth, and not having made our portion like theirs.” Clearly the Alaynu is an expression of this paradox: the tikun olam can only come about when Israel realizes and maintains its separateness. The task of becoming a kingdom of priests *precedes* the task of becoming a light unto the Nations.
“Nor do I think that the prophetic ‘light unto the Nations’ was ever meant to be an overt, direct-action concept in which we were directed to go forth and teach the nations about holiness. [It] was meant as a prophecy, not as a “thou-shalt” commandment. The day will yet come when Torah will become the light for all mankind, for they will have perceived the truths of Torah. The idols -- i.e., any thing other than God to which a person gives ultimate allegiance -- will have been destroyed by the living model of Jewish sacred living.”
Rabbi Shlomo Aviner
“Our uniqueness does not develop at the expense of our relationship with the nations of the world and it does not connote their denigration. In the words of R’ Israel Salernter: “If you wish to be greater than all the others do not dig a ditch for them, but rather make a mountain for yourself.” ... The Divine pronouncement to Abraham was that the blessing to all families of the earth would come from a “great nation;” ... a great nation that has “God intimate with it and laws that are righteous (Deut. 4).” Not only righteous and perfect individuals detached from society can live according to the light of God’s word, but also an entire people, a whole national entity made up of all social and economic strata; farmers and industrialists, the military and police, politicians and diplomats. All can be a holy people.
“This is the ultimate purpose of the Torah of Israel: sanctification of God’s Name in the life of the kingdom. Maimonides [underscores] that the Divine light should flow from the source of abstract faith to the most basic aspects of practical life within the state. In contrast to those who separated soul from body, spirit from substance, the world to come from the present world and said: ‘Render unto heaven what belongs to heaven and to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.’ No! There is only one domain: the private domain of the One of the universe. ...
“It is self-evident that we are [not there yet.] Therefore we must truly reinforce our internal structure, and as every honest and sincere teacher who is not plagued with terrible hypocrisy, we will not venture to correct our fellow man before we correct ourselves.”
Rabbi S. E. Danziger:
“In relation to the forgotten theme of the Torah’s universalism, ... should we ... follow the traditional approach of internal improvement and thereby serve as an exemplary model to others? Or should we develop our ‘own approaches to contemporary problems based on our world view and value system and press our Weltanschauung directly on our non-Jewish neighbors? My own view embraces neither alternative completely, but rather an intermediate opinion.
“[According to Maimonides], “...so that (because of his actions) all praise him, love him and desire to imitate his behavior, such a person has sanctified the Divine Name, and of such a person it is written, ‘You are My servant, Israel, through whom I will be glorified (Is. 49:3)’” It is clear from the context, especially the following verses (“I will also make you a light unto the nations” -Vs. 6), that the Divine Name is to be glorified through Israel, in relation to the gentiles. See also Ezek. 36:16-27.
“In the Torah itself we find concern for the gentile perception of the laws of the Torah and the people of the Torah: ‘Observe therefore and do them for this is your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the nations, who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely a wise and understand people is this great nation (Deut. 4:6).‘“ When the Torah is properly understood by us and carried out with the spiritual dignity and good taste befitting the Divine commands, there must be a positive impact on the nations who sooner or later will ‘hear all these statutes’ and come to learn about them without our *direct* effort to inform them. This is especially true today. .To the [sage’s] words (Abot 2:1) that ‘all your deeds are recorded in the Book,’ we may add, ‘and in the media, on the talk shows, [the internet], etc. ... Today there is even more scrutiny of Jewish practice and, through publication of English Torah books, greater awareness of our religious views with greater possibility [to sanctify God’s Name] or, Heaven forbid, to desecrate God’s Name. ... We are *always* in the presence of our gentile neighbors. ... Most importantly, our religious acts must not be perceived as a casual exercise in Jewish ethnicity, which is too often the case. To have a [sanctifying] impact they must reflect an inner spirituality, not to be confused with external fervor and frenetic activity.
“One should always be astute in his religious practice. He should answer softly, turning away wrath (Prov. 15:1); foster peace with his brothers, his relatives, and with all, including a gentile on the street, so that he will be beloved above and desirable here below. Through this kind of internal improvement we may hope to be instrumental in the Divine purpose taught by our sages (Talmud Pesachim 87b): ‘The Holy One, blessed be He, did not exile Israel; to live among the nations but so the gerim (proselytes) be joined to them.”
Peace and blessing,
Len
HI LEN,
Sorry the format of a blog is a little difficult..Hope it's not too difficult for those who read to know whose saying what. I will start my comments with ***** and put lines of separation.
Dear Joyce,
This is a continuation of the prior message.
I wrote that your view that "Torah does not equal Judaism" is partly true because Torah is explained by the Talmud and many other works. But that does not seem to be what you meant. You said "Torah without the revelation of Yeshua as the Living Torah, has its limitations," and that you “can quote you hundreds of verses and stories that point to Him.” Joyce, I have been involved in interreligious dialogue on the Internet for 15 years now and I have yet to see such verses that were not either mistranslated from the Hebrew, or simply metaphoric/allegoric interpretations and distortions of the original meaning. In fact there are several messianic prophecies where it can be shown that exactly the opposite occurred during Jesus’ era. You said you know of hundreds such verses and stories. I don’t want to go through them either but I have probably seen many if not most of them.
*****I'm sure that you will do with Isaiah 53 what some rabbis do and say the "suffering servant" who was pierced for our transgressions..was Israel, not Yeshua, but that is not true. I have friends who are experts in Hebrew ( I'm not) that say it is impossible that Isaiah 53 could describe anyone but Yeshua. Has Israel suffered? Yes, but if you look at the passage it is very clear it's about Yeshua.
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Others better than I have gone through the major ones and you can see responses to many of them, for instance, on this site:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html
In fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer has brought many Messianic Jews back to Judaism with his profound, incisive, articulate analysis of missionary claims. He has a set of 18 CDs including a 423 page study guide. I personally know a former Southern Baptist pastor with a doctorate in theology, former professor in a Baptist seminary, who converted to Orthodox Judaism after listening. FWIW here are websites of two other former Christian clergy who have converted to Orthodox Judaism; both brilliant people as you can see from their web sites.
http://www.asherwade.com/show.asp?PID=5
http://www.ministersjourney.blogspot.com/
*******I have no doubt he is an anti-missionary who is very persuasive, but on the converse, I have many friends who were raised in Judaism, experts on Torah who have done the reverse. They have come to believe in Yeshua.
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For example, where is it cited that Jesus performed what is stated in your quote: “Zech. 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. “ This is proof????
Or your citation of: “Zech. 12:10 ¶ “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, 1the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. “
*****Interesting that you chose this. I just returned from Jerusalem recently, where I met a rabbi who took me to the Mount of Olives and told me that. When I asked him how he knew all of this. ( He also quoted many verses from the Apostolic Scriptures) He said, I quote"You will be surprised what we are talking about in the yeshivas here in Jerusalem". The other statement he made was that some are just not open to looking. A friend who studied in a yeshiva in Jerusalem told a story about how the rabbis found a text that pointed them to Yeshua, and the chief rabbi said, "Okay, we're all seeing the same thing, but we're not going to discuss it right now, but if we would ONLY read the text, if we would ONLY read the text." So there you go, there are rabbis discovering Yeshua. A famous 106 year old kabbalist who died 2 years ago left a death bed letter to opened a year after his death. It was posted on internet for a while but I think it's been removed. Something's going on out there. At the same time numerous Christians I know are discovering Hebrew roots of their faith or discovering that they are Jews whose family hid their roots. I'm sure you understand this. Question is, why now? I think there's prophetic significance to all of the personally and I think we will see perhaps the 2 sticks of Ezekiel 37, which will be Jewish believers in Yeshua and Gentiles some of whom may be from the 10 scattered tribes become
one stick. . I can't prove it will happen in my lifetime, but I think it might...
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This is simply a mistranslation of the Hebrew which actually means: “And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to Me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.”
****that's not what the rabbi I met in Jerusalem said, and many other native Hebrew speakers that I know.
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You do have a fine appreciation for the significance of Jewish history but do not realize how profound and important its influence on the world has been even discounting Jesus; especially discounting Jesus.
I agree with you “that Jews [cannot] accept a "torahless" Messiah but disagree that Christians have misinterpreted “some of the verses in the Apostles writings” to form a "new religion". You don’t give Christians enough credit. Perhaps they see what you don’t; what Paul or his editors intended. Following are highlights from Maimonides’ “Mishneh Torah” relevant to the Messiah.
****I believe God sovereignly allowed Christianity to develop, but there is a mystery that Paul mentions in the book of Romans. He says a "partial hardening has come to Israel until the "fulness of the nations" The fulness of the nations is the same expression as the blessing that Israel gave to Ephraim in Gen 48. He said that he would have a "double portion" and become the "melo ha goyim" . I believe that what Paul was saying is that the gospel would go out to the nations and that "lost Israel" in the nations would receive the Gospel. As the tribes of Israel are gathered up with the nations we will see the "fulness of the nations" come in. Paul and Peter both quote from Hosea, when he talked about Israel become "not a people". I believe God in His mercy scattered Israel into the nations as both a punishment but a blessing. Remember when Joseph went into exile. Joseph had the food that brought life, but his brothers couldn't recognize him because he looked like an Egyption, but he had the "bread of life" . I believe the scattered tribes in the nations are like Joseph. Judah doesn't recognize his brother, but Joseph has the bread of life. Judah has Torah, but Joseph is a type of Yeshua. Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, Yeshua for 30. Joseoph was despised by his brothers, so was Yeshua. Joseph didn't sin with Potiphers daughter, Yeshua was sinless. Joseph saved the everyone, so did Yeshua. Joseph was reconciled to his brothers, so will Yeshua...It was Judah who offered to step in as a "substitute for Benjamin" That too is a sign of Messiah. When he did that Joseph revealed himself.
Abraham goes to sacrifice his son, a hint about Messiah. Father giving up his "one and only son".
The seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpant..sign of Yeshua defeating Ha Satan.
Only one door to the ark of Noah...Yeshua is the door if anyone knocks they can come in and dwell with Him and he'll give them life, etc.
He will be born in Bethlehem. Moses predicted one greater than he. Moses went up and down, up and down. Yeshua ascended and descended and will come again.
Yeshua is the Lamb of Pesach, With His blood the angel of death passes over us. He is the atonement of Yom Kippur. He gave the Ruach HaKodesh on Shavuot and 3000 were saved. . See the book of Acts, and on and on and on..
Len the seeing of Yeshua is spiritual. When God opens your eyes, you see. My life has been changed by Him. I know He's real. I've had miracle after miracle after miracle in my life...He answers my prayers. He meets me at the moments in my life where I need Him and cry out to Him.. always, always, always.. what can I say?
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Ch. 11
3. Do not suppose that King Messiah will have to perform signs and wonders, --- revive the dead or similar acts. It is not so. --- Basically, things are as follows: This Torah of ours, its statutes and laws, will never be subject to change. Nothing is to be added to or taken away from them.
**** Rambam may have been a smart guy but he didn't know Yeshua...He was what in the 12 th century when Judaism had already rejected Yeshua for many years.
Ch. 12
1. Do not suppose that --- any of the laws of nature will cease to exist ---. The world will continue its normal course. Re, Isaiah 11:6, [The wolf/lamb statement] should be understood figuratively. It signifies that the Israelite people will dwell securely among the world’s evil men who are likened to wolves and leopards, as it is written, “Wolves of the desert ravage them, leopards keep watch around their cities (Jer. 5:6). They will all turn to the true religion and neither plunder or destroy; they will eat what is permissible, gently, along with Israel, as it is written: “The lion shall eat straw like any ox (7)." So too all similar biblical passages relating to the Messiah are metaphorical. During the messianic era their precise metaphorical significance will become known to all.
*****I don't thnk they are metaphorical.I believe the covenant of peace under Yeshua will be a total restoration of Gan Eden. That's what the book of Revelations says too.
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2. The sages have declared: “ The only difference between the present world and the messianic era is our present subjugation to foreign powers (Talmud Berakhoth 34b). --- Some sages declared that Elijah the prophet will appear before the --- Messiah (Re: Malachi 3:23). No person is in a position to know how all these things will happen until they take place. The prophets mention them vaguely, not explicitly. [There is disagreement among the sages on this subject]. At any rate, NEITHER THE SEQUENCE OF THESE EVENTS OR THEIR MINUTE DETAILS ARE OF BASIC IMPORTANCE IN RELIGION. One should never deal with legendary topics, or stretch midrashic statements ---. One should not consider them essential because they do not lead to love of and reverence [for God].
*****Judaism lifts up the "sages" but if they knew that much God would have made them prophets. There are no prophets since Yeshua.
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4. The prophets and sages longed for the messianic days NOT in order to dominate the nations of the world, or to rule over them, or to be exalted by them, or to eat, drink and rejoice, BUT to be free to study Torah, with no one to oppress or disturb them, so as to deserve life in the world to come ---.
****Tanach says the Lord will rule the nations, yes so we can learn Torah and have shalom:
Is. 2:2 ¶ In the days to come, The Mount of the LORD’s House Shall stand firm above the mountains And tower above the hills; And all the nations Shall gaze on it with joy.
Is. 2:3 And the many peoples shall go and say: “Come, Let us go up to the Mount of the LORD, To the House of the God of Jacob; That He may instruct us in His ways, And that we may walk in His paths.” For instruction shall come forth from Zion, The word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Is. 2:4 Thus He will judge among the nations And arbitrate for the many peoples, And they shall beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks: Nation shall not take up Sword against nation; They shall never again know war.
5. In that era there will be no famine, war, envy or strife. Prosperity will prevail and all kinds of luxuries will be available like dust (Like the Internet?). The universal preoccupation will be to know the Lord. ---
****The Bible doesn't say anything about internet.
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Postscript:
Maimonides’ statement that the Messiah will be human has a basis in the bible. Moses is prototypical as he was kind of messianic in his time. Note the similarity between the words, Moshe and Moshiach. Did he do it all himself? Certainly not! In fact, during the Passover Seder Moses’ name is mentioned only once to emphasize Gods role, and as a precaution against worship of Moses. (Note also Moses’ simple birth as described in scripture, his faults of speech and behavior, the latter precluding his entering the Promised Land, and the hiddeness of his grave).
****Moses was another "type of Yeshua" . Yeshua was fully human, but also fully God. His name means that God is our salvation..Joshua who shares the same name is also a type of "Yeshua" He took Israel into the promised Land. It requires "crossing over" . Being a Hebrew is not always as easy as it looks..
As the Exodus occurred in history, so will the Messianic age remain in history (Ref. “The Jewish Way,” Pg.37, by Rabbi Irving Greenberg). “This idea is in contrast to the development of Christian messianism. The early Christians experienced Jesus as the redeemer in their midst. Having experienced the Messiah’s ‘actual presence,’ the Christians were tormented by the contradictions between his coming, which should have brought the Exodus for all, and the reality of a world still unredeemed. one way to resolve this was by denying --- . But for some the experience of his coming was too strong to deny. Another interpretation was then explored. --- the true messiah was not in the external physical world but in the internal spiritual world.--- Christians ended up changing the very notion of messianism. They translated the concept --- into a state of personal salvation, thus removing it from the realm of history. they were acting on the Jewish Exodus model but resolving its tensions in a manner that eventually turned them away from Judaism.
*****I believe Messiah will come and establish His reign on planet earth for a thousand years, and we will have a "shabbat rest" .
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Rabbi Greenberg also points out that the Sabbath is a model of the Messianic time to come and, at its highest level, a fantasy of the perfect world. On this day prayer consists of praise of God and thanksgiving, but not request. We pray as if there is nothing lacking. No work, no shopping and no constructive labor is required. The whole earth is at rest in observance and memory of the seventh day of creation as well as the Exodus.
***I agree that there awaits a Sabbath rest for the people of God, as the author of Hebrews says.
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Notwithstanding all the above, Christianity (and Islam) are great (in the sense of worthwhile, as well as populous) religions. We have a lot more in common with respect to the meaning of life, and on social issues, than either of us has with atheists. Nearly two thousand years ago Paul started a process that brought a majority of the earth’s pagans to worship a monotheistic God, the God of Israel. I hope you forgive me when I say that, while Christianity represented a great leap forward for those pagans and for the world, it would represent a step backward for Jews.
*****I can understand why you say this, but remember Paul did not bring Christianity per say. That was later after the death of the disciples. Paul spread the news of Yeshua, but not a religion that was hostile to Jews. On the contrary, sometimes the Jews who didn't believe in Yeshua were hostile to the believing Jews, especially when they would not follow the false Messiah Simon Bar Kochba. From that time on the Jews in the synagogues began making Jewish believers in Yeshua recite a prayer which would have been anti-Yeshua. That and the fall of the Temple where Gentile believers in Yeshua did not want to undergo Roman persecution with the Jews began to distance themselves.
Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 ad made horrible rules where believers in Yeshua could no longer observe the correct days of worship...the mo'ed. This did not help relations between Jews and believers in Yeshua at all.
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“Through you shall the whole world be blessed.” This is the essence of God’s promise to the Jews and to all mankind; the promise that ties us together in what should be cooperation, not dissonance. Jews were chosen, not for privilege but for duty; to bring the world to worship of the One God. To the extent of Christianity and Islam, both of which arose from Judaism, we’ve been partly successful. Maybe, as some wag said, “Pluralism is the will of God.” We’ll find out. Stay tuned in.
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5:55 PM
******Islam has changed so much of the Scriptures, I don't see it as a good thing at all. I know Mohamed wanted to spread monotheism, but Islam also tries to usurp the idea that Isaac is the son of promise, and distorts the timelines and stories in the Bible. Just because they claim they descend from Abraham ( which is part true and part not true...not all Muslims are from the line of Ishmael and there are Christian Arabs that could be descended from Ishmael as welll) does not mean that Islam is a religion of "peace" . I think most Muslims don't know the Quran and that is a blessing. It tells them to kill Christians and Jews.
I know Christians also persecuted Jews over the centuries, but the Bible didn't tell them to do that. They did it by jealousy or hatred or thinking they were standing up for Yeshua, or I don't know what. The Inquisition and anything done in the name of Yeshua is evil. Yeshua would not even let Peter defend Him when He was arrested, so He never condoned killing to spread His Name.
Forcing people to change their faith by a sword is not a Biblical idea. Faith is a matter of free will and choice. Islam doesn't allow for the free choice. If you are born in a Muslim country, you are not given an option. If you leave, you are an apostate and worthy of death. There are many other problems with Islam, but I think we can stick to the Yeshua/Jewish discussion and that will keep us quite busy for a long time.
I do not believe pluralism was ever, or will ever be the will of God. There is one way, and it is Yeshua. He says, I am the truth, the light and the way and no man comes to the Father except by Me.. One door on Noah's ark, one way to the Kingdom. Yeshua!
There's a lot more to say, but I have to run for now.
Shalom and blessings,
Joyce
MARYANNE
To Anonymous 8:43, who wrote:
In defence of Maryann/ Young Grashopper I must say that you people are on a total witch hunt!
I have spoken to her on the phone and she is one of the kindest , sympathetic and most tolerant people I have ever met!
I don't doubt that Maryann is a sweet person. I heard her on the radio earlier this year where I warmed to her immediately. Based on some of her recent posts at this blog, however, it appears that Maryanne has a "split personality."
From an earlier post by Maryanne on this same thread:
Hi Dorothy,
You're a piece of work aren't you? I get a kick out of you, too- you're like the feisty old grandmother that comes to visit and the kids love because she's feisty and will tell you that your feet stink and your gravy has lumps in it. You bite your tongue the whole time she visits out of respect, and when you finally get the nerve to retort to one of her insults you're sorry you did it because there is no reasoning with her. It's her way or none.
I can only imagine what would happen if Dorothy (or someone else here) called Maryanne a "piece of work."
The rules regarding good manners apply to everyone here including Maryanne. No special exemption applies to her. If pointing out the breach of those rules (by Maryanne or anyone else) constitutes a "witch hunt," where do I sign up to get my broom?
Len,
I think you have one or two other comments that I haven't gotten to yet. I will do my best to do that later. I appreciate the time and thought you have put into your comments, although I know we fundamentally disagree on many things. There are some areas of agreement.
Shalom,
Joyce
POST TO LEN
I want to concur with the earlier poster who said that your intelligent present is a "breath of fresh air." I haven't had time yet to read your posts on this thread carefully (although I have bookmarked the Jewish websites you recommended, and the book at Amazon for exploration at a later date) but I will do so soon.
I am very interested in learning more about what Orthodox Jews actually believe. I am very gratified that someone has come to this blog who can give a constructive and critical assessment of Joyce's theologically-oriented postings.
I think this "balance" has been missing for a very long time here at this blog, and that it will have a positive effect.
Sorry that should read "intelligence presence" not "intelligent present."
That might have been a Freudian slip however, since your presence most certainly appears to be a "gift."
To Lurker at 7:43:
the discouraging thing is that with all the people that have been maligned here,for reasons that didn't make sense to me, there was always a way to stop it but it didn't happen.
If that was going to happen, it would have happened many months ago when the religious bigotry that sometimes crops up here reared its ugly head in a most vicious way. Constance did not stop it then.
The series of "incidents" to which I refer, BTW, were instigated and supported by a core group of Evangelicals at this blog, many of whom still post here. I should add that as a believer in free will, I do not judge "all Evangelicals" at this blog by the actions of these particular people.
It doesn't seem like this is a healthy place for Christians, although I do like sarah and Rudi and a couple others here like SV who seem kind and without a MO.
Thank-you anonymous 2:52 for making us more aware that this is not necessarily a good place for Chrisitans who love Jesus.
If your theory is correct and that a watershed for "Christians" has occurred here, then very soon we will see everyone--Rudi, Paul, Joyce, SV, Deanie, Dawn, DouginMi, etc.--follow suit and disappear from this blog apart from Dorothy and Len.
Hi to all,
I have no intention of going anywhere -
If anyone has been doing any form of this research and speaking about it for any length of time (25 years now for me) then your skin has grwon as thick as mine.
If I were that timid - or not that grounded in what I know, what I understand and I believe, I would have stopped many years ago.
I can sit and have discussions with the new agers - satanists - witches - people of other faiths - whatever andand not get upset by what they think and/or believe.
My faith rests firmly upon the conerstone that the builders rejected -
the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
If I go away - it is becaue - I am gone from earth - or the Lord tells me not to comment, andf yes - I will admit to commenting when not directed to. I am still human - like the rest of us.
DouginMI
Hi again Len,
I have a few minutes here, so I'll address your next post..Don't think I missed any?
Dear Joyce,
You wrote: “The Jews are supposed to be a light to the nations and teach Torah, along with the rest of Israel which has now lost it's identity due to exile and assimilation ( the other 10 tribes).“ On the Other hand the Torah also says of Israel: “For from their beginning, I see them as mountain peaks, and I behold them as hills; it is a nation that will dwell alone, and will not be reckoned among the nations. (Num. 23:9)”
****Yes, there is a paradox..Israel is supposed to be a light to the nations, but also to be "set apart". In keeping God's commandments they would bring glory to His name and be victorious over the nations around them. As soon as they disobeyed God, we know punishment was severe, but I believe the ultimate goal of this was to draw the nations to the God of Israel.. Now let's see what the rabbis say.. I haven't read these comments below yet.
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This is the normative, though not exclusive, Orthodox view. It is why Orthodox Jews will rarely be found in a milieu like this. The Fall, 1990 issue of the Orthodox Union publication, Jewish Action, was devoted to a symposium, Israel and the Nations. I will briefly excerpt some quotes from it on both sides of the issue.
Rabbi Emmanuel Feldman
Can the vision of the prophets -- that the truths of Torah will ultimately be recognized by the nations -- be fulfilled if Israel remains a people apart? If we do not even talk to them, how can we guide them? ... Is the Messianic vision to come about through a cosmic miracle, with no effort on [our] part, so that at the end of days God presses a Divine button and Israel’s light suddenly shines on a darkened world? The question ... is vexing and paradoxical. On the one hand we are separated.... ‘I have separated you from the Nations to be Mine’ (Lev. 20:26), to be a kingdom of priests (Ex. 19:6); ... and we are described as ‘a people dwelling alone which does not reckon among the nations,’ (Num. 23:9), with an entire Halakha designed to keep us apart, including warnings about ... intermingling ... and ... intermarriage. On the other hand, we are told that we will be a “light unto the nations,’ and that they will ultimately join Israel in acceptance of the truths of the One God and His teachings (Is. 2:2-4); and as we read the Rosh Hashanah liturgy, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
“These opposing tendencies are not contradictions. They underscore the concept that it is precisely its apartness that enables Israel to bring its influence to bear on the world. Apartness has as its purpose the preservation of Israel, so that it can remain the kingdom of priests which brings sanctity to an unsacred world. Through our separateness -- one of the meanings of the word, kadosh -- we are able to teach mankind. This is the great paradox of Jewish existence.
“All this is clearly adumbrated in the Alaynu prayer that we recite thrice daily, and that is the centerpiece of the High Holy Day Musaf service. It refers to tikun olam, the “correcting” or “mending” of the world; it expresses hope for the time when mankind will bow before God as they concede the truths of His teachings; and it is climaxed by the famous prophecy of Zechariah 14:9 that, “in that day God will be One and His Name will be One.” But a careful reader will note an apparent contradiction: all this seems to fly in the face of the preceding section of the Alaynu, in which we praise God for not having “made us like the Nations of the earth, and not having made our portion like theirs.” Clearly the Alaynu is an expression of this paradox: the tikun olam can only come about when Israel realizes and maintains its separateness. The task of becoming a kingdom of priests *precedes* the task of becoming a light unto the Nations.
“Nor do I think that the prophetic ‘light unto the Nations’ was ever meant to be an overt, direct-action concept in which we were directed to go forth and teach the nations about holiness. [It] was meant as a prophecy, not as a “thou-shalt” commandment. The day will yet come when Torah will become the light for all mankind, for they will have perceived the truths of Torah. The idols -- i.e., any thing other than God to which a person gives ultimate allegiance -- will have been destroyed by the living model of Jewish sacred living.”
****** I think Israel is supposed to teach by example, but that does not exclude teaching. If I give a lesson to my kids but don't practice what I preach then my kids will see my hypocrisy and reject my words. The sense of separation is that Israel should not "go the way of the nations" i.e. worship their gods, eat unclean foods, etc. in a nutshell obey Torah. To date, Israel, my people have failed to do that consistently. Sometimes the things Jewish people to do to look separate have more to do with tradition than Biblical mandates..i.e. the fellows who dress like Polish aristocracy. They look different enough, but is that what Torah means..
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Rabbi Shlomo Aviner
“Our uniqueness does not develop at the expense of our relationship with the nations of the world and it does not connote their denigration. In the words of R’ Israel Salernter: “If you wish to be greater than all the others do not dig a ditch for them, but rather make a mountain for yourself.” ... The Divine pronouncement to Abraham was that the blessing to all families of the earth would come from a “great nation;” ... a great nation that has “God intimate with it and laws that are righteous (Deut. 4).” Not only righteous and perfect individuals detached from society can live according to the light of God’s word, but also an entire people, a whole national entity made up of all social and economic strata; farmers and industrialists, the military and police, politicians and diplomats. All can be a holy people.
“This is the ultimate purpose of the Torah of Israel: sanctification of God’s Name in the life of the kingdom. Maimonides [underscores] that the Divine light should flow from the source of abstract faith to the most basic aspects of practical life within the state. In contrast to those who separated soul from body, spirit from substance, the world to come from the present world and said: ‘Render unto heaven what belongs to heaven and to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.’ No! There is only one domain: the private domain of the One of the universe. ...
****Maimonides did not understand the story, and attributed to Yeshua a kind of Greek mindset.. The key to understand the phrase, "render unto Caeser is this little phrase....( won't attach the whole story, but your welcome to read it in Matt 22:
Matt. 22:18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
That's why He answered as He did...He saw their hearts.. Same way when they tried to get him to stone a woman who was set up as an adultress, and He knew their wickedness. He said, "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" and they all went away. He started writing on the ground and theologians speculate He was writing the names of those they committed adultery with. He was God, so He knew...
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“It is self-evident that we are [not there yet.] Therefore we must truly reinforce our internal structure, and as every honest and sincere teacher who is not plagued with terrible hypocrisy, we will not venture to correct our fellow man before we correct ourselves.”
******Amen, brother, preach it...
Rabbi S. E. Danziger:
“In relation to the forgotten theme of the Torah’s universalism, ... should we ... follow the traditional approach of internal improvement and thereby serve as an exemplary model to others? Or should we develop our ‘own approaches to contemporary problems based on our world view and value system and press our Weltanschauung directly on our non-Jewish neighbors? My own view embraces neither alternative completely, but rather an intermediate opinion.
“[According to Maimonides], “...so that (because of his actions) all praise him, love him and desire to imitate his behavior, such a person has sanctified the Divine Name, and of such a person it is written, ‘You are My servant, Israel, through whom I will be glorified (Is. 49:3)’” It is clear from the context, especially the following verses (“I will also make you a light unto the nations” -Vs. 6), that the Divine Name is to be glorified through Israel, in relation to the gentiles. See also Ezek. 36:16-27.
“In the Torah itself we find concern for the gentile perception of the laws of the Torah and the people of the Torah: ‘Observe therefore and do them for this is your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the nations, who will hear all these statutes and say, ‘Surely a wise and understand people is this great nation (Deut. 4:6).‘“ When the Torah is properly understood by us and carried out with the spiritual dignity and good taste befitting the Divine commands, there must be a positive impact on the nations who sooner or later will ‘hear all these statutes’ and come to learn about them without our *direct* effort to inform them. This is especially true today. .To the [sage’s] words (Abot 2:1) that ‘all your deeds are recorded in the Book,’ we may add, ‘and in the media, on the talk shows, [the internet], etc. ... Today there is even more scrutiny of Jewish practice and, through publication of English Torah books, greater awareness of our religious views with greater possibility [to sanctify God’s Name] or, Heaven forbid, to desecrate God’s Name. ... We are *always* in the presence of our gentile neighbors. ... Most importantly, our religious acts must not be perceived as a casual exercise in Jewish ethnicity, which is too often the case. To have a [sanctifying] impact they must reflect an inner spirituality, not to be confused with external fervor and frenetic activity.
“One should always be astute in his religious practice. He should answer softly, turning away wrath (Prov. 15:1); foster peace with his brothers, his relatives, and with all, including a gentile on the street, so that he will be beloved above and desirable here below. Through this kind of internal improvement we may hope to be instrumental in the Divine purpose taught by our sages (Talmud Pesachim 87b): ‘The Holy One, blessed be He, did not exile Israel; to live among the nations but so the gerim (proselytes) be joined to them.”
******I think this last comment has great wisdom, but fails to take into account an important aspect of Torah. God said that blood had to be shed:
Lev. 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have assigned it to you for making expiation for your lives upon the altar; it is the blood, as life, that effects expiation. ( Jewish Publication Society)
Israel is not a kingdom of priests because most of Israel is assimilated in the nations, either through Divine punishment or choice. Israel does not have a Temple. Israel was supposed to be a nation of priests but when they sinned with the golden calf the Levites were chosen to act as priests and thus Israel does not have a role as a nations of priests for the moment and does not have access to the kadosh kadoshim. The fact that the Yom Kippur sacrifice hasn't been performed for almost 2000 years means that Israel cannot be the nation that God called it to be unless....God provided a "newer way".. God did not, as the rabbis say, give Israel good works as atonement.. or even just plain repentance, the fast of Yom Kippur etc.. Without the shedding of blood there is NO REMISSION OF SIN. How can Israel act as priests when their sin has not been atoned for? I'll tell you how, according the book of Hebrews there is a High Priest, who is the ultimate High Priest because He has access to the mercy seat of the throne in Heaven. That is Yeshua HaMashiach...a priest on the order of Melchizadek..Sorry to do this. You quoted the rabbis, so I'm going to quote the writer of Hebrews:
Heb. 7:22-28 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to cmake intercession for them. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
Heb. 8:1-12 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a ahigh priest, who has taken His seat at bthe right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a aminister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who aoffer the gifts according to the Law; who serve a copy and bshadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the 2tabernacle; for, “dSEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.” But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the amediator of ba better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. For aif that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says,
“aBEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
1WHEN I WILL EFFECT bA NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
“AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM 1THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
“FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
bAND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”
The way, I understand the Scriptures, Jews have only one way to atone for there sins and that is through the shedding of blood. To expect Israel or the Jews to be a light to the nations, without a means of atonement seems inconsistent with the Scriptures.. I know that the hope is to rebuild the Temple, but remember, the last 30 years that the Temple was standing the Yom Kippur sacrifice was not accepted. The red cord did not turn white, according to the historical account, signifying that the High Priest's offering was not accepted.
We can know for sure why the Yom Kippur offering wasn't accepted between 30 ad and 70ad, but I can venture a guess. Perhaps, this was because Yeshua's blood was adequate expiation for sins, so the blood of the bulls and goats was no longer required.
I do believe, according to Ezekiel, the sacrificial system will operate in the Millennium, however it will serve a different function and will not be the sacrifices that are for the expiation of sin.
Israel will be restored fully to its place, but at the moment without Mashiach, it has not been restored.. When the Jews cry out from Jerusalem "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" Yeshua will come..
His words, not mine:
Matt. 23:39 “For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”
Blessings and shalom,
Joyce
I meant to say the last 40 years the Temple was standing , not 30.
Nice post, Doug.
Dear Anon 7:43PM & all concerned,
As an evangelical Christian, I've visited plenty of blogs whose emphasis are strictly for evangelical purposes, and "flair-ups" such as these occur regularly amongst denominations within the evangelical community themselves. Considering all of the faiths represented here at this blog, I think we're doing pretty good! :-) My hope is that those who've needed to have their say have done so; my joy is that we can have these "flair-ups" and yet continue each week with the business at hand; and my passion remains steady for the love of my God and for my friends & family, and for you, my extended family.
I respect the fact that serious differences, or feelings of disrespect must be addressed from time to time, but I sincerely hope that we can come together and continue our support of one another, as well as, continuing to fight the worthy battle of bringing deception to light, and warning families, their children and friends about evil things.
It has been rightly stated that I have no MO, other than to do my part in researching, preparing material that is understandable, and sharing this info with all who will listen and who will do their best to be action oriented when action is possible.
I share with you my heart and my prayers today, friends.
Love,
-SV
12/11/2008
Dear Joyce,
In response to your request this message is about blood; or more generally about sin and atonement. You make a leap from Lev. 17:11 to infer that sin cannot be forgiven without blood and then make a second leap to conclude that Jesus, by shedding his blood became a permanent sacrifice, like a Passover lamb according to you, to forgive all sins of those who worship him.
Let’s look at the verse in context:
Lev. 17: 8 --- Any man of the House of Israel or of the strangers who will sojourn among them, who offers up a burnt offering or [any other] sacrifice, 9 but does not bring it to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting to make it [a sacrifice] to the Lord, that man shall be cut off from his people. 10 And ANY MAN OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL OR OF THE STRANGERS THAT SOJOURN AMONG THEM, WHO EATS ANY BLOOD, I WILL SET MY ATTENTION UPON THE SOUL WHO EATS THE BLOOD, AND I WILL CUT HIM OFF FROM AMONG HIS PEOPLE. 11 FOR the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have therefore given it to you [to be placed] upon the altar, to atone for your souls. For it is the blood that atones for the soul. 12 Therefore, I said to the children of Israel: None of you shall eat blood, and the stranger who sojourns among you shall not eat blood. 13 And any man of the children of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who traps a quarry of a wild animal or bird that may be eaten, and sheds its blood, he shall cover it [the blood] with dust. 14 For [regarding] the soul of all flesh its blood is in its soul, and I said to the children of Israel: You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the soul of any flesh is its blood all who eat it shall be cut off.
Now, Joyce, where does it say that atonement REQUIRES blood? Saying that blood atones is not the same as saying that there is no atonement without it. Rather, the gist of this chapter is to warn that blood can be used ONLY for atonement and must not be eate, thereby confirming God’s the Noahite covenant (Gen. 9:8) that you wrote does not exist:
Gen. 9: 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be yours to eat; like the green vegetation, I have given you everything. 4 BUT, FLESH WITH ITS SOUL, ITS BLOOD, YOU SHALL NOT EAT. 5 But your blood, of your souls, I will demand [an account]; from the hand of every beast I will demand it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of each man, his brother, I will demand the soul of man. 6 Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man. --- 16 And the rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will see it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and between every living creature among all flesh, which is on the earth." 17 And God said to Noah: "This is the sign of the covenant that I have set up, between Myself and between all flesh that is on the earth."
Lev. 17 gives strict restrictions concerning sacrifices. Some of these are:
1. Do not slaughter outside the camp; only at the Tent of Meeting.
2. Burn all the fat.
3. Throw the blood on the altar.
4. Do not sacrifice to demons.
5. Do not drink the blood.
Blood is merely incidental to some offerings and the people were warned not to eat the blood. There are many other kinds of animal offerings, shedding blood, that have nothing to do with sin or atonement. For example, the Communal Peace Offering (Lev. 23:19), the personal Peace Offering (Lev. 3:10, 31, 35), The Thanksgiving Offering, (Lev. 7:12-16), the First-Born Offering (Num. 18:17-18), the Tithe Offering (Lev. 27:32) and, finally, the Passover Offering ((Exod. Ch. 12).
Isn’t it ironic that your prototype for the Crucifixion is the “Passover lamb” when this has nothing to do with sin or atonement?
The animal offerings just described involve blood but are not for atonement. Therefore your view is false on its face.
The idea here is that the person bringing the offering may have deserved to die and he should look on the animal’s blood and say, “There but for the grace of God go I.” The person is at least giving up something valuable of his. What do YOU give up if Jesus dies for your sin? Absolutely nothing at all; no restitution, no animal, nothing of value.
Jesus couldn’t have atoned for a sin committed by the entire community -- let alone the world -- because genuine communal sacrifices were *always* burned (Lev. 4:13, 21), and Jesus was never burned.
“Rescue me from blood guilt - O God of my salvation. Lord, open my lips so my mouth may declare Your praise. For You desire no offering, else I would give it; a burnt offering You do not favor. The offerings of God are a broken spirit. A heart broken and crushed O God, you will not despise. (Ps. 51:16-19)”
Judaism has a different viewpoint on blood. It is seen as a symbol of life/life force, and therefore is forbidden to Jews as a food. To this day, those of us who keep kosher go to great lengths to remove blood from our food.
It is forbidden to have sex with a menstruating woman. If blood were nothing but an atonement, having sex with a bloody partner would be something holy. Instead, Judaism teaches that it is a vile act.
A table where one eats is compared to an altar, in Judaism. If blood were nothing but atonement, we would eat bloody food. But instead, this is strictly forbidden.
NON-BLOOD ATONEMENT:
The Bible provides several non-blood means of atonement; the simplest being repentance alone.
Repentance worked just fine for the people of Ninevah in the Book of Jonah. God forgave them without a single drop of blood being shed. Right?
Aside from repentance, prayer and charity here are other BIBLICAL means of atonement:
1. MONEY AND SILVER: God wants His people to collect money and silver to be used for atonement.
Exodus 30:12 "When you take the sum of the children of Israel according to their numbers, let each one give to the Lord an atonement for his soul when they are counted; then there will be no plague among them when they are counted. 13 This they shall give, everyone who goes through the counting: half a shekel according to the holy shekel. Twenty gerahs equal one shekel; half of [such] a shekel shall be an offering to the Lord. 14 Everyone who goes through the counting, from the age of twenty and upward, shall give an offering to the Lord. 15 The rich shall give no more, and the poor shall give no less than half a shekel, with which to give the offering to the Lord, to atone for your souls. 16 You shall take the silver of the atonements from the children of Israel and use it for the work of the Tent of Meeting; it shall be a remembrance for the children of Israel before the Lord, to atone for your souls."
2. JEWELRY: Consider the soldiers returning from battle who donated all their jewelry to atone.
“We therefore wish to bring an offering for the Lord. Any man who found a gold article, be it an anklet, a bracelet, a ring, an earring, or a body ornament, to atone for our souls before the Lord. (Num. 31:50)
3. INCENSE
Num. 17:11 Moses said to Aaron, "Take the fire-pan and put on it fire from upon the Altar and place incense -- and go quickly to the assembly and provide atonement for them, for the fury has gone out from the presence of The Lord; the plague has begun!" 12 Aaron took as Moses had spoken and ran to the midst of the congregation, and behold! the plague had begun among the people. He placed the incense and provided atonement for the people:
4. FLOUR:
Lev. 5:11 But if he cannot afford two turtle doves or two young doves, then he shall bring as his sacrifice for his sin one tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He shall not put oil over it, nor shall he place frankincense upon it, for it is a sin offering. 12 He shall bring it to the kohen, and the kohen shall scoop out a fistful as its reminder, and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires of the Lord. It is a sin offering. 13 Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin that he committed in any one of these [cases], and he shall be forgiven.
I will discuss sacrifice and atonement in the next message.
Sacrifice:
The Bible has lots to say about how sacrifice is often not required for atonement or even desired. Even when it was so used, was only effective for unwitting sins (Num. 15:22-24). In all cases repentance and restitution of the wrong done must precede the sacrificial act (Lev. 5:2126). Someone who sinned willfully was cut off from among his people (Num. 15:30).
The Hebrew word for sacrifice, korbon, does not even mean sacrifice. The concept of a hungry god needing sacrifices is foreign to Judaism. God needs absolutely nothing at all. The word, “korbon,” is from the root, KRV, that means, “to draw close.”
Sacrifices must be for *our* benefit, to allow us to draw close to God. This is an analogous view to that of prayer. God doesn’t need our prayers either. He does not benefit when we testify that He is Blessed; *we* do by drawing closer to Him. The Hebrew word for prayer is, l’hit-palayl, which is in the reflexive form. Prayer is considered as an operation on oneself. As for many other commandments, prayer and sacrifice were partly for the purpose of increasing awareness in the individual. When someone sinned, and brought a korbon, he would realize that, but for the grace of God, the sinner would be dead; not the animal.
The analogy between prayer and sacrifice is significant because, in the absence of the Temple, prayer replaced sacrifice in Judaism. Most of the worship services are at the same time as, and in remembrance of, corresponding sacrificial services. We read about the sacrifices instead of doing them pursuant to Hosea.
“Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to Him: ’Forgive all guilt and accept what is good. Instead of bulls, we will pay [the offering of] our lips (prayer and repentance).” (Hosea 14:2,3)
Samuel said, “Has The Lord as much desire in burnt offerings and peace offerings, as in obeying the voice of The Lord? Behold, to obey is better than the fat of rams. (1 Sam. 15:22)”
“With what shall I come before The Lord...? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings and yearling calves? Will The Lord be pleased with thousands of rams...? He has told you, O man, what is good and what The Lord demands of you: but to do justice, love loving-kindness, and to walk discretely with your Gd. (Mica 6:6-8)”
“Performing charity and justice is preferred by God to a sacrifice. (Prov. 21:3)”
“For I desire loving-kindness, and not sacrifices, and knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (Hos. 6.6)”
So said The Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel: Add your burnt offerings upon your sacrifices and eat the meat. For neither did I speak with your forefathers nor did I command them, on the day I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning a burnt offering or a sacrifice. But *this* thing did I command them saying: Do My bidding so that I may be The Lord your God and you may be My people; walk only in all the ways that I command you. (Jer. 7:3-11,21-23)”
HOW JEWS ATONE FOR SIN
Following are several verses that form part of the Scrptural basis:
Ezekiel 33:11, 14-20
“As I live - declares the Lord, The Lord, it is not my desire that the wicked shall die, but that the wicked turn from his [evil] ways and live. Turn back turn back from your evil ways so that you not die. When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall die,’ and he turns back from his sinfulness and does what is just and right - if the wicked man restores a pledge, makes good what he has taken by robbery, follows the laws of life, and does not commit iniquity he shall live; he hall not die. None of the sins that he committed shall be remembered against him; since he does what is just and right, he shall live. Your fellow countrymen say, “The way of the Lord is unfair.” But it is their way that is unfair! When a righteous man turns away from his righteous deeds and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. And when a wicked man turns back from his wickedness and does what is just and right, it is he who will live by virtue of these things. ‘The way of the Lord is unfair?’ I will judge each of you according to his deeds, O House of Israel.”
Jeremiah 36:3
“Perhaps when Judah hears of all the disasters I intend to bring upon them they will turn back from their wicked ways, and I will pardon their iniquity and their sin.”
We believe that, all year long, “God in near to ALL who call on Him (Psalms 145:18).” This is in contrast to the Christian belief that people can come to God only through Jesus.
We don’t need anyone to die for our sins because God tempers justice with mercy and substitutionary sacrifice of a human is unjust and unmerciful. God has provided the vehicle of repentance and this, along with prayer, charity and God’s grace yield atonement. Repentance can happen anytime but is especially practiced on Rosh Hashanah, with atonement being granted by God on Yom Kippur.
Lev. 16
29 And [all this] shall be as an eternal statute for you; in the seventh month, on the tenth of the month (Yom Kippur), you shall afflict yourselves, and you shall not do any work neither the native nor the stranger who dwells among you. 30 For on this day He shall effect atonement for you to cleanse you. Before the Lord, you shall be cleansed from all your sins. 31 It is a Sabbath of rest for you, and you shall afflict yourselves. It is an eternal statute. 32 And the Kohen who is anointed or who is invested to serve in his father's stead, shall effect [this] atonement, and he shall don the linen garments, the holy garments; 33 And he shall effect atonement upon the Holy of Holies, and he shall effect atonement upon the Tent of Meeting and upon the altar, and he shall effect atonement upon the kohanim and upon all the people of the congregation. 34 [All] this shall be as an eternal statute for you, to effect atonement upon the children of Israel, for all their sins, once each year. And he did as the Lord had commanded Moses.
EXODUS 34:6,7
“The Lord, The Lord is a merciful and gracious God, slow to anger and abounding in kindness and truth. He keeps kindness to the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and acquitting the penitent
“He, being merciful, forgives iniquity and does not destroy; frequently he turns His anger away and does not stir up all his wrath (Ps. 78:38; 20:10)
PSALM 130.
This psalm opens every public service during the High Holy Day season. “A song of ascents. Out of the depths I call to You, The Lord. Lord, listen to my cry; let your ears be attentive to my plea for mercy. If You keep account of sins, Gd, Lord, who will survive? Yours is the power to forgive so that You may be held in awe. I look to The Lord; I look to Him; I await His word. I am more eager for my Master than watchmen for the morning; watchmen for the morning. Israel, wait for The Lord; for with The Lord is steadfast love and great power to redeem. It is He who will redeem Israel from all its iniquities.”
Now, Joyce, if God forgives, why do you need Jesus???
Len,
I have been looking for the information you have just posted for a very long time.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
To SV (2:42 PM):
Thank you so much for sharing your very beautiful thoughts, words and perspective.
Teshuvah (Repentance)
Definitions:
Shuv, 1.To return, 2.To repent
Kapayr, To atone
Repent, To feel pain, sorrow, or regret for something done or left undone by one's self; to experience such sorrow for sin as produces amendment of life
Atone, [Compounded of at and one] To be at one; to agree to make reparation, amends, or satisfaction, as for an offense or crime
Shana, 1.Year; 2.To change, 3.To study, learn, teach, inculcate
Repentance
Rambam (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon----Maimonides)
Mishneh Torah
Chapter 1
1. If a person has transgressed any Torah precept, affirmative or negative, willfully or unitentionally, he must confess before God, blessed be He, when repenting and turning away from his sin...(Numbers 5:6-7). This means verbal confession. How does one confess? He says, "Lord, I have sinned; I have rebelled against You and have done [such and such]. I regret and am ashamed of my act. I will never do it again."
3. [People used to bring sin or guilt offerings to the Temple but since it] no longer exists... there is nothing left but repentance. Even if one is wicked to just before the end of his life, but then repents, we must not mention his wickedness to him (Ezekiel 33:12). Yom Kippur itself atones for those who repent; as it is written, "Atonement shall be made for you on this day" (Leviticus 16:30).
Chapter 2
1. Perfect repentance is where an opportunity presents itself to repeat the offense, and he refrains from committing it because of his repentance and not out of fear or physical inability. If one repents only in old age, when he can no longer do what he used to do, the repentance, though not the best, will still do him some good. Even if a person transgressed all his life and repented on the day of his death, dying during repentance, all his sins are pardoned.
3. Anyone who makes a verbal confession without resolving in his heart to abandon his sin is like one who takes a ritual bath while grasping a defiling object. The bath is useless unless he first casts the reptile away.
9. Repentance and Yom Kippur accomplish atonement only for sins against God, as when one has eaten forbidden food; ...sins against a person...are not pardoned unless he compensates the person and makes an apology...
10. One must not exhibit cruelty by not accepting an apology... He should forgive wholeheartedly. Even if he was caused much trouble, wrongfully, he must not avenge himself or bear a grudge...
Chapter 3
1. Every human has virtues and sins. One whose merits [substantially] exceed his sins is a tzadik (righteous person). One whose sins exceed his merits is a rasha (evil person). In the intermediate region is the bainoni [most of us].
3. ...Good and bad deeds of each individual are weighed on Rosh Hashanah: The tzaddikim are marked for life; the rashaim for death. The fate of the bainonim are held in suspense till Yom Kippur. Those who repent are marked for life; the others for death.
4. Though the sound of the shofar on Rosh Hashanah is a biblical commandment, it has an intimation, as if to say, "Arise from your slumber,...: search your deeds and repent; remember your creator..." Everyone should regard himself, throughout the year, as a bainoni [on the margin]. ...i.e. lf he then commits one additional sin he weighs the balance of merit against himself causing his destruction. If he performs a good deed he weighs the balance in his favor and is saved...As it is written, "The just man is the foundation of the world" (Proverbs 10:25). For this reason Clal Yisrael [engages] in increased tzedakah and good deeds between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.
Chapter 5
1. Free will is granted every human. ... It is written, "Man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22). Humans are unique in ... intelligence and reason. No one prevents man from doing... as he pleases..."
2. Do not think that God decrees, at a person' birth, that he be good or evil, [a very common notion]. Every human is capable of becoming righteous like Moses or wicked like Jeroboam, wise or foolish, merciful or cruel, niggardly or generous; and so on... The sinner causes his own ruin...
4. ...If a person's destiny had been decreed from birth, or his innate makeup [orientation] draws him to something he cannot escape, what room would there be for the entire Torah?...
Chapter 7
2. A person should always consider himself as if he is about to die. ... He should therefore repent of his sins immediately. ... Solomon in his wisdom said, "Let your garments always be white." (Ecclesiastes 9:8)
3. Repentance is not limited to sinful acts, like...stealing... Just as one should repent of these, so he must search out bad traits, and repent of anger, hatred, envy, scoffing, greed, excessive pride, gluttony, etc. Bad traits are worse than sinful acts because of their addictive nature.
4. The repentant person should not imagine that, because of his sins, he is far removed from the merit of the righteous. He is tenderly loved by the Creator as if he had never sinned. Besides, his reward is great because he had tasted sin and got rid of it by suppressing his evil inclination. Hazal said, "Where a repentant sinner stands, the thoroughly righteous cannot stand" (Berakhot 34b). His merit is superior to that of one who never sinned because the great effort required to suppress the impulse.
8. A repentant should be humble. If a fool insults him by dredging up a past ignoble deed... the repentant should pay no attention but should rather rejoice knowing that his repentance is to his credit....It is a flagrant sin to say to a repentant person, "Remember your past deeds" or ...embarass him [with specific recollections]....As it is written, "You must not vex one another" (Leviticus 25:17).
Excerpt from the chapter, Repentance, in the book, “The Thirteen Petaled Rose,” by Adin Steinsaltz: (Basic Books, 1980). (My choppy excerpts don’t do the original justice.)
“Repentance is one of the ultimate spiritual realities at the core of the Jewish faith. Its significance goes far beyond the narrow meaning of contrition or regret for sin, and it embraces a number of concepts considered fundamental to the existance of the world. --- It is the highest expression of [free will]- it is a manifestation of the divine in man. Man can extricate himself from the binding web of his life, from the chain of causality that otherwise compels him to follow a path of no return.
“Repentance --- [provides man] with a measure of control over his existence in all dimensions including time. Time flows in one direction; it is impossible to undo or even to alter an action after it has occurred ---. Though the past is fixed, repentance admits the possibility of changing its significance in the context of the present and future. The Hebrew word for repentance is teshuvah.
“Teshuvah has three meanings. First it denotes “return,” a going back to Gd or to the Jewish faith. Second, it can mean “turning about,” adopting another orientation in life. Third Teshuvah signifies “response.” --- In spite of the vast range of ways in which a Jew can alienate himself from his past and express himself in foreign cultural forms, he nevertheless retains a metaphysically, almost genetically imprinted image of his Jewishness. To use a [botanic] metaphor; a change of climate, soil [etc.], can induce marked alterations of the form and functioning of a plant, and even the adoption of characteristics of other species, but the unique paradigm or prototype persists.
“A person’s spiritual development, whether he has sinned or not, is in a sense a path of repentance. It is an endeavor to break away from the past and reach a higher level. Notwithstanding the complexity and deeply felt difficulties involved, there is clear simplicity in the elemental point that is the point of turning.--- The starting point is precicely this fulcrum upon which a person turns himself about, away from the pursuit of what he craves, and confronts his desire to approach Gd; this is the moment of conversion, the crucial moment of repentance.
“It is rare for repentance to take the form of a sudden dramatic conversion, and it generally takes the form of a series of small turnings. --- When response is direct and immediate, the process of repentance cannot continue, because it has in a way arrived at its goal; whereas one of its essential components is an increase of tension, the tension of the ongoing experience and the yearning. Jewish thought pays little attention to inner tranquility and peace of mind. The feeling of “I’ve arrived” could undermine the capacity to continue.”
The Talmud states; “In the place where a repentant person stands, even the most saintly cannot enter;” because the penitent has at his disposal not only the forces of good in his soul and in the world, but also those of evil, which he transforms into essences of holiness.”
12/11/2008
Dear Joyce,
Following are: Some Events Associated With the Messianic Age.
THE COMING WILL LIBERATE FIRST THE JEWS, WHO WILL RETURN TO ISRAEL, AND THEN ALL HUMANITY.
“He will display a signal to the nations, assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the Four Corners of the earth. (IS. 11:12)
"Thus says The Lord: Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob, and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt upon its mound, and the palace shall stand where it used to be. Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving, and the voices of those who make merry. I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will make them honored, and they shall not be small. Their children shall be as they were of old, and their congregation shall be established before me; and I will punish all who oppress them. (Jer 30:18-20)”
THE TEMPLE WILL BE RESTORED
“The mount of The Lord’s House shall stand firm above the mountains --- and all the nations shall gaze on it with joy. And all the peoples shall go and say: ‘Come, let us go up to the mount of The Lord, to the House of the God of Jacob; that He may instruct us in His ways, and that we may walk in His paths. For instruction shall go forth from Zion, the word of The Lord from Jerusalem. (Is. 2:2,3)”
THE COMING WILL USHER IN AN ERA OF UNIVERSAL PEACE AND JUSTICE.
“Thus He will judge among the nations and arbitrate for the many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation; they shall never again know war. (Is. 2:4).”
“[The Messiah] shall judge the poor with equity --- and slay the wicked with the breath of his lips (Is. 11:4, 5).”
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard lie down with the kid; the calf, the beast of prey, and the fatling together, with a little boy to herd them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together; and the lion, like the ox, shall eat straw. A babe shall play over a viper’s hole, and an infant pass his hand over an adder’s den. In all of My sacred mount nothing evil or vile shall be done; for the land shall be as filled with knowledge of The Lord as water covers the sea. In that day the stock of Jesse --- shall become a standard to peoples. Nations shall seek his counsel and his abode shall be honored. (Is. 11:6-10).”
THE WORLD WILL OBEY ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE TORAH ENTHUSIASTICALLY.
“Such is the covenant I make with the House of Israel after these days [periods of disaster in Jewish history, when Israel was sinful and God was hidden] declares The Lord. I will put My Teaching into their inmost being and inscribe it upon their hearts. Then I shall be their God and they shall be My people. No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, ’Heed The Lord,’ for all of them from the least to the greatest shall heed Me, declares The Lord. For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more. (Jer. 31:33, 34).
“The Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Lord with one name (Zech. 14:9)”.
Please tell us which of these Jesus fulfilled. That is a rhetorical question. Not only did he fulfill none of them but consider: Jesus not only failed to fulfill the prophecies of messianic events (virgin birth, rising and resurrection not being among them), but exactly the opposite happened.
** Instead of the Temple being rebuilt a la Ezekiel it was destroyed.
** Instead of the Jews returning to the land they were dispersed.
**Instead of everyone recognizing and internalizing the eternal Torah, Jesus believers call it the "Old" Testament.
** Instead of peace and justice we have had continual war and injustice.
** Instead of everyone recognizing the One God with One Name we have a plethora of false gods, Jesus being just one of them.
Clearly none of the prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus and exactly the opposite occurred. Christians get around this by invoking a second coming but there is nothing about this in either the Greek Scriptures or the Tanakh. In fact, Jesus says that his apostles will see him crowned in their lifetimes. (Mat. 16:28, Mark 9:1, 13:30, Luke 9:27)
That didn’t happen either. So he did not even fulfill this New Testament prophecy.
Instead of prophecies of action, missionaries create prophecies of identity. That allows allegoric spinning that I have seen a lot of here. Jesus’ name is nowhere in the Tanakh. Yet, Joyce, you see him in every nook and cranny of a favorable adjective. When the Messiah finally arrives, may it be soon, we will not have to see his resume to recognize him. It will be by his actions, not his vita. Using this criterion Jesus’ score is zero so far.
You consider Jesus to be divine; part of the Trinity. But this also contradicts the Tanakh which clearly states that the Messiah will be a human human – not a divine human. That is as plain from Scripture as the nose on your face. The Messiah is described in Isaiah 11.
"But a shoot shall grow out of the stump of Jesse (Ruth's grandson and father of King David, Ruth 4:17), a twig shall sprout from his stock. (Is. 11:1)"
Will God grow out of the stump of Jesse? Will King David's Lord be his descendent? Absurd! Also, It does NOT say, "A shoot will sprout out of the stump of God ---." Either way you look at it, it makes no sense whatsoever to consider these verses as foretelling a Messiah who will also be God. Why would God need a Messiah when He can do perfectly fine without one as He did by rescuing the Israelites from Egypt?
"The spirit of The Lord shall alight upon him: a spirit of wisdom and insight, a spirit of counsel and valor, a spirit of devotion and reverence for The Lord. (Is. 11:2)"
Does this sound like the Messiah will be God? Why would the Bible say that the spirit of God will alight on Himself? Why would it say that God will be devoted and have reverence for Himself???
In fact the entire genealogies of Matthew and Luke are absurd if they are referring to God. What does God need a genealogy for??? He preceded all there is and will survive all that will be. Isaiah, and use of a genealogy, proves that the authors (Isaiah, Matthew and Luke) considered the Messiah to be a human, and *not* God. I know that Christians consider Jesus to be both, but this makes no sense whatsoever in the context of Is. 11:1-2. It confirms that, while Matthew and Luke may not have considered Jesus to be God (only the human Messiah, a more pardonable offence), the later editors distorted the NT manuscripts.
“God is not a man that He should lie, neither the son of man that He should change His mind. (Num. 23:19)"
Repeat for emphasis: "God is not a man ... neither the son of man." That leaves Jesus out on two counts; Jesus *is* a man and he is also called "son of man."
"When thy days are fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, that shall proceed out of thy body, and I will establish his kingdom." (2 Sam. 7:12)
This sounds like a human to me. How could you think otherwise?
Peace and blessing,
Len
To Dorothy,
I want to apologize for calling you a feisty old lady who tells people that their feet stink and that they have lumps in their gravy and whatever else I said that might have offended you. In truth, I thought I had a good enough relationship with you, and knew you well enough that I could kid around with you that way and that you'd even get a kick out of it. I guess I was wrong.
I also want to apologize to anyone else I may have offended here- Constance, Suzanna, and all the anonymi who have basically let me know they don't care for my attitude.
Frankly, I honestly still think I have been very unfairly maligned here by some,for reasons I am not sure about other than that I was evidently proselytizing too much and attempting to defend myself against being called full of myself (that's a joke by the way, as I am one of the most unconfident people in the world!)as well as needing therapy, etc, but that being said, we are called to forgive and to ask for forgiveness.
I do not wish to make excuses for myself but I have been going through a very hard time lately with my mother, who's been in and out of hospitals for the past two months and not expected to live, as well as my son, who is in a severe depression and can't seem to cope any more. The disc I slipped in my back a few years ago has also been causing me constant pain, so perhaps I have been overly aggressive and disagreeable here. I just don't know and it's hard for me to be subjective about myself anymore.
I suppose I do need therapy, as all I do is cry anymore, but trust me that my tears have nothing to do with this blog.
That being said it bears repeating that I am very sorry for whatever it is that I have done wrong.
I had at least hoped my Shirley Temple song would make people smile but that didn't work either;0(
I also want you all to know that I won't pollute you all with my presence here, but nonetheless I felt that as a Christian I'd somehow set a bad example that needed to be rectified, and so I came back to do that.
Thanks for hearing me out folks.
Peace,
Maryanne
Len,
I tried to stay out of this as long as I could. However, this verse seems to jump out at me. When considering the son of man Isaiah 9:6-7 seem appropriate for explaining how the son will be God himself/ Eternal Father and yet will reign in the throne of David.
9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
9:7
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore *. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
Also is the prophecy of the timing of the Messiah's arrival in Daniel 9 in the prophecy of the weeks. From the time the decree goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem even in times of distres with plaza and moat until Messiah the prince there will be 7 sevens and 62
sevens. (Easily to be understood as sevens of years- quick math- 483 prophetic years (360 days to a year) works out to the time of Jesus when you consider the decree of the Artexerxes.
Yes, the prophecies of the Messiah that you quoted were not fulfilled in Jesus's first appearance. He had to suffer and die in order to redeem humanity. He will come back as promised as the Messiah ben David in order to fulfill the promise of salvation which has been sealed with the arrival of the Holy Spirit.
I believe that the Torah covenant is important, mostly as far as it was necessary to hold in place the Abrahamic covenant until the promised seed could come to fulfill it. Once Jesus came to fulfill Abraham's covenant, the newer covenant was put forth, sealed with the blood of the passover cup.
The purpose of the genealogies is not necessarily only to confirm Jesus as a descendent of the line of David, but also to confirm that he is the seed of Abraham, one who is worthy to redeem the nations.
If Jesus's miracles were not enough to convince, and his resurrection as attested by the Roman guards, the apostles, the 500 witnesses, I am not sure how much more proof you require.
Jesus's death was a way to justify the people who will believe and walk uprightly against their sin. A redemption speaks of something yet future, not only when our souls are redeemed but when our bodies will be also.
Leana
Dear Leana,
Beautifully stated.
By His Grace,
-SV
So how will we know if the messiah to come is the christian one or the Jewish one?
YS
YS
Funny, but to me, it should be one and the same. The returning Messiah is coming to be crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
He should fulfill both the Christians anticipation of a second coming and for the Jewish people on the Earth he should fulfill the prophecies about rescuing them from the hands of the evil king who has sent them into exile again.
The two concepts are not at odds with each other.
Leana
Len,
I'm not going to post your whole post because it's long, but I am going to answer you on the subject of blood with part of the book of Hebrews.. Read it carefully and bear in mind that it is written by a Jew of the 2nd Temple Period who knew Torah..The writer of Hebrews says, "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin".
Heb. 9:Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and bthe earthly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,
having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was ca golden jar holding the manna, and dAaron’s rod which budded, and ethe tables of the covenant;
and above it were the aherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests aare continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, but into athe second, only bthe high priest enters conce a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the 1sins of the people committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly aboth gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
But when Christ appeared as a ahigh priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect 2tabernacle, dnot made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
and not through athe blood of goats and calves, but bthrough His own blood, He centered the holy place donce for all, having obtained eeternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
how much more will athe blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, dcleanse 2your conscience from dead works to serve fthe living God?
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of fthe eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the cblood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may aalmost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and bwithout shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but athe heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ adid not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as athe high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since athe foundation of the world; but now bonce at cthe consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this bcomes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
I think this says it all. If there were no need for blood, God would not have put animal skins on Adam and Eve, foreshadowed Yeshua' death with Abraham taking "his one and only son" to sacrifice.
The blood-stained garment of Joseph is another shadow of Yeshua's garments remembering Joseph is an image of Yeshua ( 20 pieces of silver/30 pieces of silver) saves his family and everyone else and on and one, the High Priest bringing korban into the Kadosh Kadoshim. etc, etc. Look Yeshua's garments were bloodied:
If there were no need for a Temple, why did God have Moses build "according to the pattern in heaven" first the Tabernacle and then Solomon the Temple. If there was no need for the altar, the sacrifices why do Jews like Temple Institute want to see the Temple rebuilt complete with a priesthood.
Yes of course repentance and restitution are necessary, and of course we are not supposed to eat blood, because the "life is in the blood" but from the beginning we see Noah offer animals, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon.
In Ninevah, it doesn't say God forgave them.. It says
He relented and didn't bring tragedy:
Jonah 3:10 ¶ When God saw their deeds, that they aturned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it.
We don't know if He ultimately forgave them because a short 50 years later there is the Assyrian exile...
The story of Jonah is an interesting one, because he was called "to act as a priest for Ninevah" and Yeshua has something to say about the Jonah story:
Look at His words:
Luke 11:29-32 As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. “For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation. “The Queen of the South will rise up with the men of this generation at the judgment and condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. “The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because athey repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
and one more of His words:
Luke 11:45-53 One of the 1alawyers *said to Him in reply, “Teacher, when You say this, You insult us too.” But He said, “Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. “Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and it was your fathers who killed them.“So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. “For this reason also athe wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute,so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,from athe blood of Abel to bthe blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.’ “Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; byou yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.”When He left there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to be very hostile and to question Him closely on many subjects, plotting against Him to catch Him in something He might say.
It sounds like Yeshua didn't have much use for these religions leaders and the lawyers...The teachers of the Law...Look at His accusations.
And look at what happened to Stephen for telling the truth:
Stephen was stoned to death for saying the truth. Here's part of his discourse:
Acts 7:51-60“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. “Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of bthe Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers cyou have now become; you who received the law as aordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.” Now when they heard this, they were acut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and bthe Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. When they had adriven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and bthe witnesses claid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. They went on stoning Stephen as he acalled on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
The Saul or Paul or Rav Shaul, however you like, a student of Gamaliel, who was watching on with approval at this stoning ended up being struck on the road to Damascus, had a face to face encounter with Yeshua after His resurrection and ascension and became one of the most prolific writers and brought the news about Yeshua all throughout the Roman Empire, faced beatings, imprisonments, ridicule etc. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees from the Tribe of Benjamin, circumcised on the 8th day, all of which he counted as rubbish compared to knowing Yeshua.
How does one turn from a persecutor of the believers of Yeshua to one of His most devoted followers, without some miraculous encounter. In fact, al of Yeshua's disciples practically went to difficult painful deaths. Paul was behead, others crucified etc. They would have to have been a bunch of lunatics to go through that.....either that or they saw the resurrected Messiah and death no longer had any hold over them...
Paul knew Torah, like no other. When you read him it's clear that he is a very educated man...Why would a Pharisee like Paul go from killing believers in Yeshua to being a disciple.....? He knew what Torah said about the "shedding of blood".. strange, that all of Yeshua's followers were Jews..
Well I could go on and on about this, but it doesn't sound like the religious leaders of Yeshua's day among the Jews "got it " so safe to assume some of the people who speak against Him today may be misinformed too...Just some food for thought?
Remember how stiff-necked our people are Len..Even Moses ended up getting frustrated with them:
Num. 20:10 and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?”
What I'm saying is our ancestors did not always get it right...so it's safe to assume they still might not be getting it right...All the prophets were sent to correct them and finally, Yeshua came to die for them...
John 1:9014There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and athe world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and dwe saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I know you read the rabbis and the "sages" , but read about the greatest rabbi whoever lived, Rabbi Yeshua, who happens to be God incarnate.. You must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God. Yeshua told Nicodemus this who as a "teacher of the Law'. Nicodemus ended up following Yeshua..
Blessings and shalom,
Joyce
12/12/2008
Welcome Leana,
I am always glad to meet someone new, and for the opportunity to explain misunderstood Jewish Scriptural verses. Isaiah 9:6-7 (5-6 in Jewish Bibles) and similar verses that are easily modified to fit the Christian perception of Jesus are commonly quoted by missionaries. Your way is the:
Christian translation:
9:6 For a child *will be born* to us, a son *will be* given to us; And the government *will* rest on His shoulders; And His name *will be* called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There *will be* no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore *. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.
Jews must be either stupid or witless because we annually read these particular verses publicly in our synagogues on the same Shabbat when we read, of all things, the description of the revelation of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai. How could we all miss the “obvious” meaning? How do Jews read and interpret these verses (5 and 6 in Jewish Bibles)? Here is how:
Actual translation:
5 For a child *has been born* to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, *called his name* Sar Shalom, (the prince of peace). 6 To him who increases the authority, and for peace without end, on David's throne and on his kingdom, to establish it and to support it with justice and with righteousness; from now and to eternity, the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.
Do you notice the scrambling and changing of the words? The scrambling completely changes the meaning in two ways.
1. Actually it is the Father, the Mighty God, Who is doing the calling rather than being called. The son’s is referred to simply as Sar Shalom: “the prince of peace.”
2. The Christian retranslation changes the tense from past to future. For example: “has been born” to “will be born.”
As an important aside, please notice the phrase in both the Christian and Jewish versions, a phrase we will use in deciphering what is going on: “the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall accomplish this.”
Who is the birth story referring to? Not someone who will not be born till hundreds of years later but to Hezekiah, the previously born son of King Ahaz of Judah. Ahaz was introduced in 2 Kings 15:38 when HIS father King Jotham died. Ahaz is also described by Isaiah in Vs. 7:1:
Isaiah 7: 1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz son of Jotham son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin, king of Aram (Syria), and Pekah son of Remaliah, king of Israel, marched on Jerusalem to wage war against it, and he could not wage war against it.
Who is the actual son that was born? Hezekiah, not Jesus! We first met Hezekiah in:
2 Kings 16:20: And Ahaz slept with his forefathers and was buried with his forefathers in the city of David, and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead.
Isaiah introduces Hezekiah at the very beginning of his work so that those reading the Book of Isaiah are introduced to him early, Vs. 1:1, although we next see Hezekiah in Ch. 36.
Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
The Book of Isaiah spans many generations, is full of names, places and events, and is difficult to follow. I will try to explain the key events and show the key verses. King Hezekiah had the job of fighting Assyria, and its King Sennacherib, which had previously defeated and exiled the northern kingdom of Israel. In Ch. 9 Isaiah interrupted his prophecy to address God. The salvation Isaiah refers to in Ch. 9:1-3 is the miraculous defeat of Assyria’s siege of Jerusalem by Hezekiah. Vs. 3 compares Hezekiah’s rout of the Assyrian army to the miracle granted Gideon and his small force against Midian (Judges Chs. 7-8). However, the description and results of this fight are in Isaiah Chs. 36 and 37. Here are key verses:
Isaiah 36:1 And it came to pass in the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, that Sennacherib the king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and seized them. 2 And the king of Assyria sent Rabshakeh from Lachish to Jerusalem to King Hezekiah with an army of a great [multitude], and he stood near the conduit of the upper pool, on the road of the washer's field. --- 13 And Rabshakeh stood and called in a loud voice in Judean, and he said, "Listen to the words of the great king, the king of Assyria! 14 So has the king said, 'Let not Hezekiah deceive you, for he will not be able to deliver you. 15 And let not Hezekiah make you rely on the Lord, saying, 'The Lord will save us, and this city will not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria.' 16 Do not listen to Hezekiah. --- 37: 1 And it was when King Hezekiah heard, that he rent his garments, and covered himself with sackcloth, and came to the house of the Lord. --- 5 And King Hezekiah's servants came to Isaiah. 6 And Isaiah said to them, "So shall you say to your master, 'So has the Lord said, "Have no fear of the words you have heard, that the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me.” --- 15 And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, saying, 16 "O Lord of Hosts, God of Israel, Who dwells between the cherubim, You alone are the God of all the kingdoms of the earth. You made the heavens and the earth. 17 O Lord, incline Your ear and listen, O Lord, open Your eyes and see, and listen to all the words of Sennacherib, who sent to blaspheme the living God. 18 Indeed, O Lord, the kings of Assyria have destroyed all the countries and their land. 19 And committing their gods to fire, for they are not gods, but the handiwork of man, wood and stone, and they destroyed them. 20 And now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that You are the Lord alone."
21 And Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, "So has the Lord God of Israel said, 'What you prayed to Me concerning Sennacherib, king of Assyria 22 This is the word that the Lord has spoken about [Sennacherib]: 'The virgin daughter of Zion has despised you and has mocked you. The daughter has shaken her head at you. 23 Whom have you reviled and blasphemed, and upon whom have you raised [your] voice? And you have lifted your eyes on high against the Holy One of Israel. --- 29 Because you have raged against Me, and your tumult has ascended into My ears, I will place My ring in your nose and My bit in your lips, and I will return you by the road by which you have come. --- 31 And the remaining survivors of the house of Judah shall continue to take root below and they shall produce fruit above. 32 For from Jerusalem shall come forth a remnant, and survivors from Mt. Zion; *the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall do this.'*
Notice the repeat of the phrase of Isaiah 9:6 (7): “the zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall do this.'” Isaiah 9:6 (7) and 37:32 (along with a repeat of the identical story and verse in 2 Kings 19:31) are the only places in the Bible where this phrase appears. This phrase is the link that ties together Isaiah’s prophecy of Ch. 9, his description of Hezekiah’s prior birth, with his miraculous victory against Assyria in Chs. 36-37. The culmination is described as follows:
Isaiah 37: 36 And an angel of the Lord went forth and slew one hundred eighty-five thousand of the camp of Assyria. And they arose in the morning, and behold they were all dead corpses. 37 And Sennacherib, the king of Assyria, left and went away, and he returned and dwelt in Nineveh. 38 And he was prostrating himself in the temple of Nisroch his god, and Adra-melech and Sharezer, his sons, slew him by the sword, and they fled to the land of Ararat, and his son Esarhaddon reigned in his stead.
End of story! You may have to read the context of my excerpts to get the full picture but, when you do, it will be apparent that your original mistranslated verses have no significance except when correctly translated and referred to the great King Hezekiah of Judah.
Daniel will be discussed in another message.
Peace and blessing,
Len
LEANA AND OTHERS
I know Len has presented the Jewish position on the Bible and has done a very good job of it. The Christian community needs to hear the logical progression as Jews see it. This doesn't mean it is an effort to get Christians to convert to Judaism.
A while back I said it was a matter of faith. There are thousands of years of explanations of the words in the Bible. No individual could cover all of the explanations and extensions of the words. Jews will read what other Jews have written. Christians will read what Christians have written.
From everything I've known, being a Jew or a Christian doesn't always lead individuals to immoral behavior or always moral behavior. Overall knowledge of Judaism or Christianity only leads to better decisions.
Inside the communities there are battles about what to believe are taking place, Christian against Christians, Jews against Jews where politics and cultural change are influencing members of the community.
Does that mean there are no guiding differences between both sides? Of course there are differences, but these are discussions about the supernatural which cannot be resolved logically or in any simplistic manner. We are all full of questions as to what being human means, when life began, what happens after we die. The physical world is full of questions we try to answer but only finally accept on faith.
The biggest question is how our religious beliefs affect our relationship to God and our fellow man. Each person has to deal with this in their own soul based on what they have been taught. If this wasn't important, there would be no commandments. The commandments tell us how we are to form community. I know of nothing in the New Testament that throws the Decalog into the trash.
It seems to me that the differences between Judaism and Christianity are exaggerated based on what is expected in the future. Should what Jews or Christians believe will happen in the future affect how they act toward God and their fellow man right now? If Jews believe as they do and Christians believe as they do, will this mean that the future is changed in some way? I think not.
If Christians or Jews act badly toward others based on their religious beliefs, that should be questioned. But because there is a difference in what is believed, that is no cause for animosity.
Dorothy
Dear Anonymous,
Thanks for bringing Dorothy's comments to our attention. I just want to highlight one part and comment on it:
As for Len's recent comment, I don't have time right now, but might get to it later:
DOROTHY:
The Creator gave us the Holy Land thousands of years ago. Yet, when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.
All I can say to you Dorothy is Messiah has already come. Not only did He come, but He paid for your sins in full. Your inability to receive or believe will keep you in the "galut" instead of in face to face relationship with Him.
I unlike Dorothy am a Torah-believing Zionist. I don't know if such a name exists, but I'll coin it now. There are the secular Zionists like the man mentioned on Farmers blog today who has turned completely now, against Israel..because his ideals were founded on the wrong principals.
My Zionism is based on the Biblical promise. I know there are Jews that think they can't go into the Land until Mashiach comes, but if Mashiach has already come, we do not have to wait in the "galut" for Him, we just have to recognize Him...
You are right in saying He will establish peace under the covenant of shalom...
Just don't confuse Him with the anti-messiah who will make a cheap counterfeit. Yeshua is coming in the clouds, and all the tribes will see Him. If you know who to look for, it will keep you from being deceived..
Shalom,
Joyce
I should add a postscript to the previous story about Hezekiah, originally referred to as Sar Shalom (prince of peace). This will further tie things together.
After his victory over Assyria (with God’s help) he is taken ill (Ch. 38). He prays, God adds 15 years to his life, and protects Jerusalem assuring its peace for the remainder of Hezekiah’s reign.
Isaiah 38: 17 *Behold [my longing for] for peace*, it was bitter for me, yea it was bitter. But You desired my soul not decay in the grave, for You have cast behind You all my sins. 18 For the grave cannot thank You, nor can death praise You; those who descend into the pit cannot hope for Your truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall thank You, as I do today; a father shall inform his children of Your truth. 20 The Lord [has promised] to save me, and we will play my hymns all the days of our life in the house of the Lord."
12/12/2008
Dear Joyce,
In your reprimand of Dorothy you wrote that “when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.”
You sound like a Satmar Hasid. They are the group that believes Jews had no business recreating a state before the Messianic era. I would have thought you knew that God helps those who help themselves.
But then you wrote: “Messiah has already come. Not only did He come, but He paid for your sins in full. Your inability to receive or believe will keep you in the "galut" instead of in face to face relationship with Him.”
If the Messiah came 2000 years ago why did it take so long??? The Bible says that the Jews will return to the land when they return to God (the Father).
“When all these things befall you -- the blessing and the curse that I have set before you -- and you take them to heart amidst the various nations to which The Lord your God has banished you, and you return to The Lord your God, and you and your children heed His command with all your heart and soul ... then The Lord your God will restore your fortunes and take you back in love. He will bring you together again from all the peoples where The Lord your God has scattered you. ... And The Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will make you more prosperous and more numerous than your fathers.” (Deut. 30:1-5)
Those mystics among us may be interested in noting that one of the verses just cited, Deut. 30:3, is the 5708th verse in the Bible. ‘And The Lord, your God, will restore your fortunes and take you back in love. He will bring you together again from all the peoples where The Lord your God has scattered you.’ The year 1948, which saw the dream come to pass and the prediction become reality, was none other than the year 5708 from Creation, on the Hebrew calendar. Perhaps that is the first installment of the final redemption.
Joyce, you also wrote that you, unlike Dorothy, are a Torah-believing Zionist. I consider you at best a Jewish-Christian Zionist. No Jew who believes in the entire Torah, as opposed to parts of it, would worship Jesus. I also don’t know how you know Dorothy well enough to accuse her of not being a Torah-believing Zionist. I have known her for a long time and your comment seems to border on slander.
Secular Zionists who turn against Israel can no longer be considered Zionists. The state was founded by secular Zionists.
God often works in ways that appear strange on the surface. Consider that the Holy of Holies, the inner sanctum of the Jerusalem Temple that could be entered only by the high priest and only annually on Yom Kippur, was constructed by common workmen.
If your Zionism is based on the Biblical promise, your religion should also be; but it isn’t. The promise I speak of is this one:
Deut. 30: 15 Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil, 16 inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.
17 But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and you will be drawn astray, and you will prostrate yourself to other deities and serve them, 18 I declare to you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof.
19 This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live; 20 To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them.
So choose life, Joyce, make teshuvah! L’chayim!
Peace and blessing,
Len
JOYCE
I never wrote those words. Someone anonymous says I wrote them and you accept that I did? Even though it brought on an interesting discussion, it reflects on how you deal with information.
Len, don't trust strangers so easily.
Dorothy
Anon at 2:03am wrote: If your theory is correct and that a watershed for "Christians" has occurred here, then very soon we will see everyone--Rudi, Paul, Joyce, SV, Deanie, Dawn, DouginMi, etc.--follow suit and disappear from this blog apart from Dorothy and Len.
Are you kidding? Do you really think that7 etc, Christians could be chased away by two Jews? That sounds almost biblical -- Gideonesque.
Stay a while. I have been very respectful, factual and non pejorative except in kind. Sometimes it is impossible to respond to strong criticisms simply defensively.
I deeply apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings or sensibilities. My main objective is to teach and make people aware of stereotypes; false views of Judaism. Since the false views come primarily from Christians or messianics, friction is sometimes unavoidable. Correcting false notions of Judaism inherently involves taking Christian ideas down a peg because that is where the false notions arise.
As I said in my first message I support Christians and am deeply thankful for their support of Israel. But such thankfulness stops at proselytizers doors.
There is a so-called Eleventh commandment which is, "Do not give Hitler a posthumous victory by apostasizing."
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/12/2008
Dear Leana,
You assert that the timing description in Daniel 9 supports the Jesus-arrival chronology but this is based on a misunderstanding of Daniel. Following is your claim:
“ the prophecy of the timing of the Messiah's arrival in Daniel 9 [is] in the prophecy of the weeks. From the time the decree goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem even in times of distres with plaza and moat until Messiah the prince there will be 7 sevens and 62 sevens. (Easily to be understood as sevens of years- quick math- 483 prophetic years (360 days to a year) works out to the time of Jesus when you consider the decree of the Artexerxes.”
Did you ever wonder why it says 7 and 62? Why not simply “69?’ Don’t you think Daniel knew how to add? They are separate time periods not to be simply added. Here is the correct verse in context:
Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
25 And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.
Think about it and, God willing, I will solve the puzzle over the weekend (not a vow).
Why did Jesus have “to suffer and die in order to redeem humanity.”
Why can’t God redeem, as He did before Jesus, without a “divine messiah” suffering and dying? Did anyone have to suffer and die when God redeemed Nineveh in the Book of Jonah?
You talk of the Abrahamic covenant. That was important but it is not the latest covenant. You forgot about the covenant at Sinai implemented by the giving of the Torah.
The genealogies, the conflicting genealogies, of Jesus do not confirm him as a descendent of the line of David because, for one thing, they disagree. Apologists say that Luke’s is of Mary but nothing in the NT says anything other than that they are both of Jesus. Actually neither is of Jesus because Joseph was presumably not Jesus’ father. Since tribal identity goes by the father, Jesus is not of Judah as is said. These are not the only problems with the genealogies but they will do for now. As far as the seed of Abraham is concerned, all Jews are such.
Jesus’ miracles do not convince because God the Father warned us in no uncertain terms not to believe in miracles if these cause us to worship another god; that God the Father is testing us. I wrote a message on this. 500 witnesses pale by comparison to the two-million-plus witnesses at Sinai.
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/12/2008
Dear Leana,
Since you focused on the Abrahamic covenant I thought you and others might be interested in the Jewish view of the three major covenants, and how normative Jews intepret them.
The Torah tells us of three covenants made by God. The first, made after the flood, was with all humanity; Jews didn't exist yet (Gen. 9:1-17). In exchange for man's observance of the Noahide covenant God would never flood the entire world again. This covenant stipulates the Seven Noahide laws.
In the second covenant, made with Abraham, God promised, "to make you a great nation ... to bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you; and in you *ALL* the families of the earth shall be blessed." This blessing incorporates the principle that the Lord of Israel is also the Lord of the world. The covenant with Abraham, like that with Noah, is also for the benefit of ALL humanity.
The third covenant was with Israel. This covenant involved the giving of the Torah on Mt. Sinai (Exod. 19:1-8) At this time God told Moses to say to Israel, "You have seen what I did to Egypt, how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Me. Now then, if you hearken to My voice indeed and keep My covenant, you shall be My treasured possession among all peoples. Indeed, ALL THE EARTH IS MINE, but you shall be to Me a kinGodom of priests and a holy nation."
God selected and delivered the Jews, and gave us the Torah to educate us. But while He did all this for our benefit it was NOT ONLY for our benefit. "... all the earth is Mine, but you shall be to Me a kinGodom of priests and a holy nation." Like the other covenants this one has a strong UNIVERSALISTIC component. We were chosen NOT for privilege but for DUTY; to set an example. "It is not because you are the most numerous of peoples ... indeed you are least of the nations ... (Deut. 7:7)."
The Revelation at Sinai is the historic midpoint between creation and redemption. The Torah is our road map; a guide to facilitate the constructive outcome of this journey.
God, in His wisdom, has assigned roles to different entities just as, in a family, each member has a different role. The husband is not any better than the wife just because he may work outside full time while she works inside full time and a half. I do not call Judaism a family because, if it were, it would be closed to outsiders; yet the Covenant is open. While we do not prosyletize, anyone is welcome to join, if they are willing to assume the yoke of Torah. A convert and a born Jew are exactly on the same level.
I hope this helps,
Peace and blessing,
Len
Priase God Maryanne,
if the Lord can forgive you - could any of us do any less?
DouginMI
To Maryanne (9:43 PM):
I also wish to echo DouginMI's thoughts (in his 7:31 AM post).
Maryanne, your latest post sounds like the "old" Maryanne who we have all come to know and like. You always contributed many well-researched posts in the past.
Please also forgive me for any offensive, uncharitable, or sarcastic comments I have made to you on previous threads (no need to rehash them again).
I will be happy to keep your mother (and you) in my prayers.
May God's peace be with you.
--From one of the "Anyony-mice"
Maryanne:
I meant to add that I will also pray for your son. (I went through something similar with my daughter years ago.)
I am somewhat perturbed at the references to PAUL THE MYTHMAKER. One very large characteristic of the New Age Movement's thought leaders is unabashed hatred of St. Paul. I give little or no credibility to much of that book's contents. The book was sold and used at Fuller Seminary.
Constance
The "blog administrator" has a full time law practice in which she is probably by now hopelessly behind. The "blog administrator" posted at least two articles since this one which also have discussions going. I wish that people would simply state their case, their evidence, and otherwise cease personal attacks!
We can, I hope, disagree without being disagreeable!
I will also state here for the record that I am an unashamed, unapologetic and unabashed Christian and hope that my sensitivities as such are respected!
Constance
Constance has none of your IP addresses. I appreciate the posters here, wish they got along a little better. I appreciate good satire and all the talented writers here. But there are BIG things going on in the world right now. Joan Veon will be on my internet radio program next Tuesday night to talk with me about them and let's not have our lives consumed in this blogspot tempest in a teapot!
I love you all!
Constance
THANKS!!! to those of you putting me on to the Lowvehm links of Bro. Eric Jon Phelps! He is more of a New Ager than even I suspected.
Constance
Len,
I think you misunderstood my post. That was a quote from Dorothy ( or someone who said they were Dorothy) on a site called News with Views. I would never say the following. Here's the link it came off of:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter120.htm
http://tiny.cc/QZIk5
Whoever imitated Dorothy on this site, did one heck of a good job.. It sounds very much like Dorothy's tone...
HERE's what you said, but you were mistaken thinking you were talking to me. It was Dorothy's comment that I cut and pasted.
"In your reprimand of Dorothy you wrote that “when we sinned, He took it away and sent us into exile. Since that time our task is to wait for Him to send the Messiah. At that time, the Creator alone, without any human being lifting a hand or saying a word, will bring us together and take us out of exile. He will likewise establish universal peace among all mankind and all will serve Him in good will.”"
......So you cannot compare me with that fellow whose name you mentioned. Dorothy says she didn't write this comment on News with Views, but the woman who runs the site claims to have written back to Dorothy, so that's kind of funny?
I haven't slandered Dorothy, but I have shared the truth of Scripture and I do that unapologetically.
Now as far as your perspective on the "mistranslations" I would say in recent years more than ever Jewish and Christian scholars have worked together...
I would like to recommend to SV "the Jerusalem Perspective as one of the places where Christians can learn more about the Hebrew Roots of the Faith. I will send more, but this group is scholarly:
http://jerusalemperspective.com/
It's not Messianic, but Christian.
There are no perfect translations out there and some are better than others. As for your perspective on the verse from Isaiah, I would have to disagree.. I'm guessing you are taking your materials from Rabbi Singer?
Here's an article in response to that:
http://www.geocities.com/nakdimonspage/trinitypt1rts.html
http://tiny.cc/n0hmi
http://tiny.cc/UFUYB
Again, this is not something I've carefully scrutinized but at a quick glance he seems to address the issues raised by you.
I know there are lots of anti-missionary types out there, but there are many Jews who are native Hebrew speakers ( Sabra) who love Yeshua, know the Hebrew language well, including some who are rabbis..and these folks understand perfectly from the Hebrew Torah that it's all about Yeshua.
It is all a question of spiritual "seeing".
Here are some more Messianic Jewish response to antimissionaries:
http://www.hadavar.org/antimissionary.html
http://www.messianicassociation.org/ezine03gibson.htm
http://www.nccg.org/antimissionaries.html
By the way, I just found all of this with a quick search. I'm aware of the"anti-missionary" movement but haven't paid a whole lot of attention, until I happened to notice that your material looked a lot like theirs.
The problem is today all kinds of Jews are coming to faith in Messiah, Survivors of the Shoah, Israeli Military, Rabbis, secular Jews, Religious Jews it's endless...so all these people are not meshuganah...
They have all had an encounter with Yeshua. By the way, this is happening among Muslims, Buddhists, Animists, Hindus. I think one of the most offensive things to all these different groups is the Gospel of Yeshua HaMashiach!
I have done teshuvah, and I know that my transgressions have been paid for in full by the blood of the spotless Passover Lamb...I would encourage you to pray and ask HaShem if Yeshua is Mashiach. He will answer you, I promise...You will find life in Him..and you can still be a Jew... We don't become a goy just because we find our Messiah.. even if He doesn't meet the rabbis expectations. ..who ever thought God would reveal Himself in a burning bush, or in a column of smoke or a column of fire...God is not limited by our imagination...thankfully!!
I probably didn't address all of your or Rabbi Singer's remarks, because I have things to do to prepare for Shabbat...so you'll excuse me. We've probably monopolized a fair amount of space for this discussion too, and I think there are enough websites now that people can go to to see what the anti-Yeshua movement is about.. Nothing new under the sun.. There have always been those that oppose Him, but let me just quote Gamiliel in the book of Acts:
Acts 5:33 ¶ But when they heard this, they were acut 1to the quick and intended to kill them.
Acts 5:34 But a Pharisee named aGamaliel, a bteacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in cthe Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.
Acts 5:35-39 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. “For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. “After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of athe census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who 1followed him were scattered. “So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or 1action ais of men, it will be overthrown;
but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found afighting against God.”
I think he was so wise, "not to fight against God"..
As it stands, all the false messiahs disappeared. We don't hear anything about Simon BarKochba anymore or Isaac Luria or Shabbatai Zevi or Jacob Frank or even the "rebbe" from Brooklyn. He has not come back from the dead...
One more small point...I don't like the expression trinity. I prefer to say God is echad... Yeshua and His Father are echad...
Shabbat shalom,
Joyce
P.S. We may have broken a record here on this thread for the most comments...and the longest ones...
Blessings,
Joyce
Len,
I appreciate your academic approach to explaing how the two faiths understand and are different on the texts. You are very good at interreligious dialog as you stated you have conducted for 15 years.
I wouldn't dream of being arrogant enough to explain Hebrew to a Jewish person, but I expect that the Holy Spirit can still speak to my soul and my mind the proper interpretation no matter the translation.
I didn't interrupt your conversation with Joyce for any missionary purposes. It seemed at the time a good idea to present the argument based on what I know.
The texts and verses I use to understand the coming of Jesus as the Messiah, while they might be mistranslated in English were quoted in the the Greek texts. I assume that the writers of the New Testament, being both Jew and versed in Koine Greek, would know which scriptures were appropriate and use them correctly.
I have utmost respect for the Jewish faith, as they have endured and persevered to keep their faith for thousands of years.
My belief is that there are mysteries at work here. Somethings that make no sense in one age will be revealed in the next. How God will choose to redeem the nations and unite the world in peace and dwell amonst us will be a magnificent thing to behold.
Thanks for the opportunity to converse on this topic. I will make note of your passages, and keep that in mind as I seek God and truth.
Blessings to you,
Leana
12/12/2008
Dear Joyce and Constance,
One of problems with thhis blog is the great number of Anonymous posters. I have asked Dorothy why she posts under Anonymous and then signs her name. I usually post on Delphi Forums where there are also anonymous posters who change their screen names frequently so this is a pervasive problem. But at least there each post has a screen name. Here I cnnot tell one Anon from another.
Also administratively I have begun putting dates above my messages, as well as addressing them to individuals. Many mmessages have neither and this makes it hard to navigate.
Thirdly, is there any way to make the text column wider? Some of the links I entered were simply truncated.
As far as Paul and the Mythmaker is concerned, the only thing I recall mentioning from that book was that Jesus was probably a Pharisee. Do you consider that disrespectful to Paul (or Jesus)? I consider the book very scholarly and well documented with the New Testament itself being the primary source.
In any event I hasten to again apoloigize sincerely for any offence notwithstanding some of the offensive things I have read here about the sinning Jews who don't deserve salvation unless they believe in Jesus.
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/12/2008
Dear Joyce and All,
Tanakh translations are a tricky thing and all vary from each other. None is perfect. The best I have found, also easily accessible on-line, is the Judaica Press version.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm
I hve a CD ROM of this that contains a marvelous search capability, Hebrew and English, as well as the commentary of the classic exegete Rashi.
Peace and blessing,
Len
Sorry that links are truncated here. If anyone wants to contact me directly please do so at
len613@verizon.net.
Constance Cumbey said:
"I am somewhat perturbed at the references to PAUL THE MYTHMAKER. One very large characteristic of the New Age Movement's thought leaders is unabashed hatred of St. Paul. I give little or no credibility to much of that book's contents. The book was sold and used at Fuller Seminary."
Thank -you Constance for bringing that fact to light!
JOYCE
You certainly are not very thorough. Let's get it straight regarding News With Views, an issue someone brought up which you didn't bother to research before ou commented on it.
Paul Walter runs News With Views. Lynn Stuter is one of his many columnists. There is no comments section on that website, so I couldn't have written anything anything directly there. Walter proudly linked with Republic Broadcasting and I was appauled b what I found. I tried to speak with him and was brushed off, so I let columnists who wrote for NWV know what I found so they would know what they by extension were linking to.
Lynn Stuter wrote back to me with a question, copying a large section of RPB material and asked why I was concerned. The only words of mine in that column were
"“I have no problem with criticism of Israel, Judaism or Jews as long as it honestly presents the position of the majority in the Jewish community. Zionism is used by hardcore antisemites as a way to covertly criticize Jews. The equivalent is criticizing all Christians on the basis of Rick Warren's or Shuller's teachings.”"
As a result of the position I took regarding RPB and its links I was slandered in many places on the internet by people who never contacted me and was also threatened with a lawsuit, so I don't want to go further into this issue.
Joyce, you need to learn how to read more carefully.
Dorothy
LEN,
Those who post anonymously do so because they don't want to get into personalities rather than ideas. It's something that happens easily and causes a lot of friction while taking attention off the issue at hand.
You used a book as a source. You are Jewish. For Christians who follow the New Testament, the title puts their back up even though they may never have looked at the book. They are not in the academic stream where they could discuss such ideas in a neutral setting. So based on the title of a book and your reference to it, you become someone who spouts New Age ideas in the mind of at least one person. In spite of all of your serious commentary, someone will be saying "there is this Jewish New Age guy...." A huge leap, but these kinds of leaps are made here and elsewhere which is why many remain anonymous.
How to respond to a particular anonymous? Use the time of their comment which appears at the end of every comment.
Dorothy
12/12/2008
Dear Joyce,
I checkecd out the Jerussalem Perspective site and, while I am sure to have problems with it, I found the following discussion of the virgin birth amusing. Thanks forf the refe4rral. I have bookmarked it in my Christianity file.
boomer
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 151
Location: US
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject:
About 5 or 6 years ago, I started to ponder if the Virgin Birth teaching was valid. What troubled me then about the doctrine has firmed my disbelief in it today. It was then that I challenged from a good friend with this question; if Mary was betrothed to Joseph, did G-d commit adultery? Sure, one could say there was no sexual intercourse, but to dispute any legality or moral questions, why didn't the Holy Spirit impregnate Mary before she was betrothed to Joseph? Why did G-d choose to impregnate Mary while see was already promised to her husband.
Please realize, in a Jewish wedding, a man and women are considered married during the betrothal stage and can not break if off unless a 'get' (written divorce decree) is given to the women. Therefore, Mary and Joseph would have been consider married during the time the Holy Spirit visited Mary.
Last edited by boomer on Sat May 17, 2008 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
smadewell
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 373
Location: Amerikan Federal Empire
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject:
I'll go you one further, boomer. Jesus replaces YHVH in the mind of the Church by becoming his own Father in order to impregnate his own earthly mother, who there after becomes a Vestal Virgin. Oedipus Rex, much? Seen from that POV ... the Mythicists are correct about Christianity being little more than the product of religious syncretism.
Dorothy,
If you had a bad experience with the situation at News with Views, I'm sorry to hear that and sorry to bring back something that might have been difficult for you..It was an anonymous poster who originally put the link and you are right. I should have asked you first before I assumed it was written by you. My sincere apologies.
Len,
I figured you would have some problems with Jerusalem perspective. I am not sure that 100 % of what is on there represents my views accurately, nor the other sites I pasted. I am not a subscriber to Jerusalem Perspective although I do respect the fact that there are Christians out there trying to learn more about the Hebrew roots of the faith. As for your comments on that...I am in preparation for Shabbat and will pass on further discussion for the moment.
We could probably write a few thousand comments and not resolve the differences here, so at some point we need to decide whether it's worth continuing. I know that short of a direct revelation from God, you will not agree with any of what I say...nor will Dorothy. I really understand this from first hand experience both personally and with others, so I will pray for both of you. . You seem like a nice man, very sincere and I think Dorothy is a woman of great conviction and in her way, she tries to do what she believes is right in the eyes of God, so no questions about anyone's sincerity..
It is helpful for believers in Yeshua, especially from Christian background to know how Jews think. There is a book called the "Preacher and the Teacher" ...the author's name escapes me at the moment, but it is this kind of dialogue.. How do you see Messiah? How do you see this or that verse?
I do agree with Leanna who said there is a mystery. I also believe that Paul speaks of this at the end of Romans 11, right after he says, "in the fulness of the nations, all Israel will be saved" God did set the boundaries of the nations in accordance with the number of the sons of Israel, so there is a relationship between the two.
I believe the scattered tribes are in all these nations and will come to the Messiah through the spreading of the gospel and eventually be reunited with their brother Judah. This is my firm conviction because we serve a God of shalom ( wholeness) who will reunite the family, and be glorified in the process. I think all the world will be blown away when they see that the sons of Israel are truly more numerous than the sands of the sea, just like He said, and not "spiritual descendants" but literal seed of Abraham.
There are those from the nations who will attach themselves to Israel and those who will turn against Israel. I would NOT want to be on the wrong side of this issue. The God of Israel is still the God of Israel and to turn against His election is not a wise thing to do.. I think the mystery will be when we discovery just exactly WHO are all these members of Israel, which we will in the end because Amos says , that He will shake them from the nations and not one grain will fall to the ground...
Or to quote Rav Shaul, and no I'm not offended that you said Yeshua was from the school of the Pharisees.. I think He's much more than that, but I think their theology in some ways aligned more closely with His:
He was speaking to the goy here:
Rom. 11:28 1From the standpoint of the gospel they are aenemies for your sake, but 2from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for bthe sake of the fathers;
Rom. 11:29 for the gifts and the acalling of God bare irrevocable.
Rom. 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom. 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom. 11:32 For aGod has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rom. 11:33 ¶ Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom. 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Rom. 11:35 Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM 1THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
Rom. 11:36 For afrom Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory 1forever. Amen.
HIs ways are unsearchable and there are mysteries...but His calling is irrevocable...and that would be to Israel.
Hope all have a blessed Shabbat,
Joyce
JOYCE
No excuse. The NWV column you referenced is very clear as to what I said.
Now your comments are modified, but it was your bullying tactics toward me as a Jewish person that started this entire dialogue. As a Christian it is understandable that you feel the need to do missionary work, but how you chose to go about it brought all of this down on your head. In your off-board life your tactics might work, but here you will encounter stronger opposition. The Jewish community has not folded because there are persons like Len who will intellectually challenge your rants. As I said, there is a long history of academic debate, and you are right in using Christian sources to support your suppositions. But know in the academic world the debates are much more nuanced based on researched information.
But know this. Jews are not stupid, and we have our own intellectual support system to validate what we believe. We are not sitting here waiting for your arguments to convince other Christians that Christians have all of the correct answers and that anyone who thinks differently is foolish or evil.
Have faith in what you want to have faith in based on what you know. Others do the same. The only thing that should concern you and anyone else is what comes about as a result of what they believe.
Nothing like that is happening in the US. Where it is taking place is in Israel where there is a clash between Jews and Muslims based on what they religiously believe. There is an attack on the Jewish community through the New Age movement and the AOC. You cannot protect the Christian community while destroying the Jewish one because in the long run the opposition plans they will go down together.
While you may feel you are supporting Christianity, know that you are planting the seeds of your own destruction.
Dorothy
Anon at 2:03am wrote: If your theory is correct and that a watershed for "Christians" has occurred here, then very soon we will see everyone--Rudi, Paul, Joyce, SV, Deanie, Dawn, DouginMi, etc.--follow suit and disappear from this blog apart from Dorothy and Len.
To Len,
I am truly overjoyed to see you here and I am profiting a great deal, in many ways, from your magnificent posts which I find both scholarly and soulful.
1. I am the "anonymous" who wrote the above comment. I deeply regret that it was entirely misconstrued as an insult against you and Dorothy, which was the opposite of what I intended. That was my own fault for being cryptic and not being clear with my language, thus leaving myself open to misinterpretation.
My objective in posting thus was to try to shake off the toxicity that had descended on this thread after the very dangerous and manipulative "Brother Eric" and his friends tried to take advantage of certain grievances and inflict significant damage on this blog. I wanted to call his bluff. I also wanted to challenge the good Evangelicals who post here to take a stand against Brother Eric's ugly comments. I was hoping to counteract some of his divisiveness.
That explanation probably won't make sense to you since you don't know the history of the personal dynamics at this blog (especially around proselytizing by Evangelicals, and that of Evangelicals who try to pit other Evangelicals here against Catholics and Jews.) I'm not explaining this well at all so I will have to ask you to trust me when I say that the comment you quoted "did not mean what you think it meant, or imply what you thought it implied." All of this was my fault.
Please accept my sincere apology for the ambiguity and subsequent misunderstanding. I am more than a little distressed about it, but am hopeful that you will accept what I write here after you have considered it.
2. A few of us here have tried to do the best we can to support Dorothy (anonymously) against the proselytizing that has erupts from time to time at this blog. On more than one occasion I have clearly named it as antisemitism. This is a lonely job. The antisemitism at this blog is like the "elephant in the room" that no one wants to name because....well, I really don't understand why some of the Evangelicals here allow it to continue without comment (all the while having "scriptural love-ins" with Joyce...telling her how wonderful she is, what a light she is for Christ, blah blah blah). I have some theories, but that's a question for another day.
Although not Jewish, growing up I was taught to stand up, always, against antisemitism. I am, however, defenseless against Joyce's claims when she starts quoting scripture and using Hebrew terms because of my limited knowledge of Judaism. I don't have the background to assess let alone challenge her arguments, all of which I am wary of because I have seen her manipulative and immoral tactics at work which has damaged the credibility, in my eyes, of nearly anything she says.
I am therefore grateful-- for everyone here but most especially for Dorothy, who has carried the can on her own far too long--that you have come here to share generously your extensive knowledge with us and set the record straight about Judaism.
Dorothy,
BRAVO!
In response to your comment:
The biggest question is how our religious beliefs affect our relationship to God and our fellow man. Each person has to deal with this in their own soul based on what they have been taught. If this wasn't important, there would be no commandments.
I think it may have been C. S. Lewis who once said that every religion at its very best involves love of God above all things and love of neighbor as self out of love for God.
Jesus said much the same thing in His summary of the Law when asked what was the "greatest commandment."
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And [Jesus] said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it: 'You shall love you neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:34-40
To Susanna (3:55 PM)
I echo your sentiments.
I have always felt that if ALL of us would follow our Lord's command to "love thy neighbor as thyself" - we would have peace and harmony here on this blog.
Of course, we should always be free to debate and disagree on our particular differences - as we can all learn from each other - but without the arrogance and condemnation that often comes with it. ("Judge not lest ye be judged.")
Maryanne
I am sorry to hear you are going through such a difficult time in your family and that it is causing endless tears. That is a lot to bear along with everything else going on in the world.
I hope you will reconsider your participation at this blog. There are a lot of people here who have said how much they like and appreciate you. Everyone can go off the rails from time to time. People are generally speaking more understanding about human frailty than we realize. I think you might be able to draw some strength from participating here.
You need to get a thicker skin and try to be a little more philosophical sometimes and less emotional. And please don't put yourself down so much.
Len,
It looks like the Catholics are all upset about us sharing Yeshua with Dorothy and you. If we could just learn to "dialogue" and be more understanding then we could invite the Muslims in too, and we could all get along.. That sounds like a plan!
The Catholics on the blog feel threatened every time we quote from the Bible, but they are happy to hear you try( and I do mean try) to prove that according to the Rabbis Yeshua wasn't God..Saying Yeshua is God likens someone to Hitler, according to Len:
LEN'S Comment:
As I said in my first message I support Christians and am deeply thankful for their support of Israel. But such thankfulness stops at proselytizers doors.
There is a so-called Eleventh commandment which is, "Do not give Hitler a posthumous victory by apostasizing.""
Yes, for a Jew to believe in Yeshua is giving Hitler a victory posthumous....Hmmm. Maybe you ought to read the history a little better. The true believers in Yeshua in WWII were saving Jews.. So let me understand, my belief in Yeshua is "apostasy" and I am helping Hitler because I reject the traditional Rabbinic position on Yeshua? That's a clever way to keep Jews from the Messiah.
And the Catholics on the blog who post anonymously and are happy to see Dorothy not know her Messiah. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Do you understand anything about the Bible at all? Where in the Bible does it say not to offend people with the truth of Yeshua? It proves that you really don't understand the gospel.
BACK TO LEN:
So let me follow your logic You're saying if a Jew comes to Yeshua it gives Hitler a victory.. That's a very interesting remark...Wonder how the others on the blog feel about that? Far as I'm concerned Hitler was not a believer in Yeshua, so drawing this conclusion is not quite accurate.
Dorothy it looks like another fellow over at News With Views is against you too. He called you a troller. Did you see this one?
http://www.newswithviews.com/NWV-News/news34.htm
It's funny because some "Anonymous poster: jumped on me about the Lubivitchers because I said they were Zionist, and you seemed very careful to correct me while you were defending them. Is that more of that "Delphi stuff"?
Let's look at Len's post from the other day:
" Len said...
12/12/2008
Dear Joyce and Constance,
One of problems with thhis blog is the great number of Anonymous posters. I have asked Dorothy why she posts under Anonymous and then signs her name. I usually post on Delphi Forums where there are also anonymous posters who change their screen names frequently so this is a pervasive problem. But at least there each post has a screen name. Here I cnnot tell one Anon from another."
It looks like Len is familiar with the Delphi Technique too. Do you want to share more about that Len, since your on all those interfaith forums. Maybe you could help us here on CC's blog understand?
Now let's look at the "Delphi Technique"
http://www.iror.org/delphi_info.asp
I'll just pull out one quote from the link which I think is worthy of your attention:
Most people have no idea, when they become involved in consensus circles, what their purpose is in the larger picture, that they are being assessed, that their belief system is being targeted, that they are being used.
Hmmm are we being targeted here on CC's blog? Could be.. I'm going to really study that Delphi thing, cause it looks like someone's trying to build a consensus here. Catholics and Jews...now that would be funny. That leaves the Messianics and Evangelicals out...hmmm.
Len, I'd love to see some of your other interfaith discussions.
One thing I'm really confused about Dorothy, weren't you writing about the Delphi Technique that Lynn Stuter brought up and now she's mad at you for trolling.. The whole thing is just so confusing to me I'm having a hard time tracking with what happened. Maybe you could explain to us here on CC's, just to clarify a little. I know it's painful but we'd really like to stand behind you. Maybe we could write to News with Views on your behalf and clear your reputation or something...I don't know, but I'm sure we can do something.
So did you write about the Delphi Technique here and Lynn is mad about it or something?
http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter120.htm
http://tinyurl.com/6djdry
Or is she just mad because of your accusations. It's funny that she and you both wrote about Delphi though, isn't it? Is that one of those bizarre coincidences? ....but you said you didn't write to Lynn...very strange. I will never understand how those things happen.
By the way Len, you can use tinyurl to shorten links.. and one more think Isaiah 53 is Yeshua... and many Jews already know this..
Shalom,
Joyce
Joyce:
Len's been here less than a week and, seeing that he does not agree with you, already you've moved into the anger and aggression stage.
The "word-distorting" stage is part of your ordinary MO when you attempt to rally the troops.
Maryanne:
I too am very sorry to hear about the awful personal circumstances in your life at the moment and my heart goes out to you.
I would like to make a couple of observations that I hope will give you a slightly different perspective on recent events at this blog.
1. You were very selective in the quotations about Dorothy that you cited. The comments you cited were very benign. You left out the things you have said here to Dorothy and others that were not nice at all. I think the statement that you were "full of yourself" was made in direct response to some of your "not nice" statements. However sarcastic and unkind the comment was, I didn't read it as a blanket statement about you, or about your character, but rather as the result of frustration that had built up at some of your frankly offensive statements about others.
2. Related to this is the fact that if you read through this thread, there have been a number of complements written about you, and expressions of good will, even from people who find some of your statements offensive. I noticed that you have ignored these expressions of kindness and instead have focused only on the criticisms (which, as I explain above, I think you have internalized much more than is merited). I also noticed that as on a previous thread, you did not take time to thank the people who have said these nice things to you.
People have taken the time to reach out to you here, some anonymously and others by name. Have you thought about returning this kindness and good will by saying "Thank you?" I believe that if you want to show Christ's love in the world, this is perhaps best accomplished by thinking about others and focusing less on yourself. This is a "good" kind of proselytizing.
You strike me as at the core a very sensitive and kind person. I would have been very heartened to see a post from you that acknowledged the kindness on this board toward you along with the hurtful things. Building up other people can be a great antidote to combatting negativity and personal hardship. I think you have missed an opportunity in this regard.
I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is meant.
To the anonymous poster who sounds like Dorothy and said this:
"Len's been here less than a week and, seeing that he does not agree with you, already you've moved into the anger and aggression stage."
Actually, I thought Len's "innocent" remark about equating Jews who are "apostate" because they receive Yeshua, as giving a Hitler a victory is a very offensive remark. Hitler killed my family and by the way he killed Jews that had "coverted" to try to save their backs too, so it was the blood that mattered to Hitler. I think you're familiar with his Aryan religion which has nothing to do with the Son of Man who did not kill people but gave His life as a ransom for many. In fact it's the opposite.
Hitler had the spirit of anti-messiah and Yeshua is the MESSIAH!!! Big difference..
On Isaiah 53:
Israel's suffering was a judgement from God for our "apostasy" way before Yeshua came on the scene. Don't blame Yeshua for Israel's apostasy because the exiles are many years before His birth. I'm a Jew, but very aware of the sins of my people, that were committed for centuries. Yes, we killed the prophets. If someone brought the truth we turned against them. There are some among my people who are doing this today, and I won't mention any names. You can venture a guess..
Seems to me that the words of Lord were fulfilled:
Deut. 28:14 and ado not turn aside from any of the words which I command you today, to the right or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Deut. 28:15 ¶ “aBut it shall come about, if you do not 1obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
Deut. 28:16 ¶ “aCursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the 1country.
Deut. 28:17 ¶ “aCursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
Deut. 28:18 ¶ “aCursed shall be the 1offspring of your 2body and the 1produce of your ground, the increase of your herd and the young of your flock.
Deut. 28:19 ¶ “aCursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
Deut. 28:20 ¶ “aThe LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and brebuke, in all 1you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until cyou perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me.
Deut. 28:21 “aThe LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land where you are entering to possess it.
Deut. 28:22 “aThe LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation and with fiery heat and with 1the sword and bwith blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until cyou perish.
Deut. 28:23 “1The heaven which is over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you, iron.
Deut. 28:24 “aThe LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.
Deut. 28:25 ¶ “aThe LORD shall cause you to be 1defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will bbe an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
Deut. 28:26 “aYour carcasses will be food to all birds of the sky and to the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away.
Deut. 28:27 ¶ “aThe LORD will smite you with the boils of Egypt and with btumors and with the scab and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.
Deut. 28:28 “The LORD will smite you with madness and with blindness and with bewilderment of heart;
Deut. 28:29 and you will 1agrope at noon, as the blind man gropes in darkness, and you will not prosper in your ways; but you shall only be oppressed and robbed continually, with none to save you.
Deut. 28:30 “aYou shall betroth a wife, but another man will violate her; byou shall build a house, but you will not live in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but you will not 1use its fruit.
Deut. 28:31 “Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will not eat of it; your donkey shall be torn away from you, and will not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you will have none to save you.
Deut. 28:32 “aYour sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and yearn for them continually; but there will be nothing 1you can do.
Deut. 28:33 “aA people whom you do not know shall eat up the produce of your ground and all your labors, and you will never be anything but oppressed and crushed continually.
Deut. 28:34 “You shall be driven mad by the sight of 1what you see.
Deut. 28:35 “aThe LORD will strike you on the knees and legs with sore boils, from which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head.
Deut. 28:36 “aThe LORD will bring you and your king, whom you set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you shall serve other gods, bwood and stone.
Deut. 28:37 “aYou shall become a horror, a proverb, and a taunt among all the people where the LORD drives you.
Deut. 28:38 ¶ “aYou shall bring out much seed to the field but you will gather in little, for bthe locust will consume it.
Deut. 28:39 “aYou shall plant and cultivate vineyards, but you will neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm will devour them.
Deut. 28:40 “aYou shall have olive trees throughout your territory but you will not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives will drop off.
Deut. 28:41 “aYou shall 1have sons and daughters but they will not be yours, for they will go into captivity.
Deut. 28:42 “aThe cricket shall possess all your trees and the produce of your ground.
Deut. 28:43 “aThe alien who is among you shall rise above you higher and higher, but you will go down lower and lower.
Deut. 28:44 “aHe shall lend to you, but you will not lend to him; bhe shall be the head, and you will be the tail.
Deut. 28:45 ¶ “So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you auntil you are destroyed, because you would not 1obey the LORD your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.
Deut. 28:46 “They shall become aa sign and a wonder on you and your 1descendants forever.
Deut. 28:47 ¶ “aBecause you did not serve the LORD your God with joy and a glad heart, for the abundance of all things;
Deut. 28:48 therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, ain hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He bwill put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.
Deut. 28:49 ¶ “aThe LORD will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, bas the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand,
Deut. 28:50 a nation of fierce countenance who will ahave no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young.
Deut. 28:51 “Moreover, it shall eat the 1offspring of your herd and the produce of your ground until you are destroyed, who also leaves you no grain, new wine, or oil, nor the increase of your herd or the young of your flock until they have caused you to perish.
Deut. 28:52 “aIt shall besiege you in all your 1towns until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout your land, and it shall besiege you in all your 1towns throughout your land which the LORD your God has given you.
Deut. 28:53 “aThen you shall eat the 1offspring of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will 2oppress you.
Deut. 28:54 “The man who is 1refined and very delicate among you 2shall be hostile toward his brother and toward the wife 3he cherishes and toward the rest of his children who remain,
Deut. 28:55 so that he will not give even one of them any of the flesh of his children which he will eat, since he has nothing else left, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will 1oppress you in all your 2towns.
Deut. 28:56 “aThe 1refined and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground for delicateness and 2refinement, 3shall be hostile toward the husband 4she cherishes and toward her son and daughter,
Deut. 28:57 and toward her afterbirth which issues from between her 1legs and toward her children whom she bears; for ashe will eat them secretly for lack of anything else, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will 2oppress you in your 3towns.
Deut. 28:58 ¶ “If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to 1afear this honored and awesome bname, 2the LORD your God,
Deut. 28:59 then the LORD will bring extraordinary plagues on you and 1your descendants, even 2severe and lasting plagues, and miserable and chronic sicknesses.
Deut. 28:60 “aHe will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you.
Deut. 28:61 “Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you auntil you are destroyed.
Deut. 28:62 “Then you shall be left few in number, awhereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, because you did not 1obey the LORD your God.
Deut. 28:63 “It shall come about that as the LORD adelighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will bdelight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be ctorn from the land where you are entering to possess it.
Deut. 28:64 “Moreover, the LORD will ascatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall bserve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known.
Deut. 28:65 “aAmong those nations you shall find no rest, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there bthe LORD will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul.
Deut. 28:66 “So your life shall 1hang in doubt before you; and you will be in dread night and day, and shall have no assurance of your life.
Deut. 28:67 “aIn the morning you shall say, ‘Would that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Would that it were morning!’ because of the dread of your heart which you dread, and for the sight of your eyes which you will see.
Deut. 28:68 “The LORD will bring you back to Egypt in ships, by the way about which I spoke to you, ‘You will never see it again!’ And there you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.”
Again in the book of Isaiah, Hosea, Ezekiel, Jeremiah....etc. All the prophets warned Israel about apostasy.
Israel is not the suffering servant because Israel SINNED!! Yeshua did not sin and therefore is the only one who fits the description of the suffering servant..
And today, our people, some of them have the same problem:
Is. 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of 1sorrows and acquainted with 2grief; And like one from whom men hide their face
He was cdespised, and we did not esteem Him.
If I sound angry, I am. Yeshua paid the sins of Dorothy and Len. Israel did not pay for your sins...give me a break:
Is. 53:5 But He was pierced through for aour transgressions,
He was crushed for bour iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
As far as miracles having nothing to do with Messiah...I beg to differ with you. If Moshe Rabainu
saw the Red Sea open and Yehoshuah crossed the Jordan on dry land, I dare say Messiah was expected to perform miracles. As for the miracle of the restoration of Israel...it will not happen until my stiff-necked people say:
"Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"
IN the meantime Dorothy, nice diversion, but you seem to be changing the subject about the Delphi Technique and focusing attention on me, instead of yourself. Len seems to know Delphi too. I never heard of it till you mentioned it on the blog here, but I am familiar with the Heglelian dialectic.
FOR LEN,
There is no 11th Word or Commandment because God is perfect and He sent us the One who paid for our violations for the 10...Thankfully He did or we would all be in trouble. There are those of us who are still in trouble because they have not appropriated the provision of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, and if my people reject Him, as the writer of Hebrews says..
Heb. 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb. 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean cthe blood of the covenant dby which he was sanctified, and has einsulted the Spirit of grace?
Equating Jews who accept Yeshua with giving Hitler a victory is darn close to trampling under foot the Son of God, but there's probably still hope if you do teshuva...I wouldn't wait too long though.
A full generation of Israel perished in the Wilderness and never entered into the Promised Land. Don't envy those who refuse to believe in the promises of God...
Now Dorothy, you have succeeded in insulting all of the good people on this blog to the point where you have driven some of them off, but I think the people at News With Views might have a point.
If I were you, and I were innocent, I would try to clear my good name with the folks over there, unless it's too late unless that's impossible because they know it was you.. I haven't seen News with Views publish anything saying that they made a mistake, so did they?
Follower of Yeshua
I wish to highlight for all a very important point Dorothy made earlier on this lengthy thread:
LEANA AND OTHERS
I know Len has presented the Jewish position on the Bible and has done a very good job of it. The Christian community needs to hear the logical progression as Jews see it. This doesn't mean it is an effort to get Christians to convert to Judaism.
To Follower of Yeshua, who wrote:
Now Dorothy, you have succeeded in insulting all of the good people on this blog to the point where you have driven some of them off, but I think the people at News With Views might have a point.
What facts do you have to back these claims?
Please provide the following:
A list of the people who have been "driven off" by Dorothy, and a list of the "good people" at this blog all of whom you claim Dorothy has insulted. This way, I can check with each of them and confirm the accuracy of your claims.
Sorry, I meant to write:
A list of the people who have been "driven off" by Dorothy, and a list of the "good people" at this blog all of whom you claim Dorothy has insulted. This way, at least in the case of the latter, I can check with each of them and confirm the accuracy of your claims.
Dear Maryanne:
I just want to let you know that you are not alone.
I can recall periods in my own life (sometimes lasting an entire year) when everything that could possibly go wrong DID go wrong (whether it was my job, finances, family or health problems).
Often, I remember trying to "put on a happy face" for the outside world (while crying myself to sleep every night). I remember trying to use my sense of humor to cover up my depression and rage. But, often, that "rage" would come through; and, like you, I would be surprised and shocked when I felt people were not perceiving me the same way that I was perceiving myself. You DO feel misunderstood . . . like you're downing in quicksand and can't seem to keep a perspective and don't fully understand what is happening.
Now, I can jokingly look back on one year in particular (during the 1990's) as the year "I couldn't seem to s - - - in the right direction." LOL
Anyway, I wanted to tell you that your last post really touched my heart. I identified with those various circumstances in life which often cause one to feel like things are spinning out of control. Things WILL get better. Always remember the saying . . . that when you are flat down on your face, you have nowhere to go but UP.
Meanwhile, try to stay strong and rely on your faith in God. You know that HE will never let you down.
May God bless you and grant you His peace.
-- From one of the "Anony-mice"
Leanna,
I just want to point out that some of the translations Len is using are the Bibles Christians use ironically enough:
I happened to check this one:
Num. 23:19 ¶ God is not man to be capricious, Or mortal to change His mind. Would He speak and not act, Promise and not fulfill?
This one above is the Jewish Publication Society...
Now here's the New American Standard:
Num. 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
The verse that you were looking at in Isaiah:
This is also the Jewish Publication Society:
Is. 9:5 For a child has been born to us, A son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler” —
Not exactly what Len posted before.. I just bring this up to say that translation is an art and while I was studying with a rabbi who was quite good at Hebrew, we would jump around to different translations. Even the Jewish translations did not always do a perfect job..
The irony is in the case of the Leviticus quote that Len used to try to prove that Yeshua is not Messiah, the Jewish version doesn't prove his point.
I'm not going to go through every quote because I don't actually have time or inclination. What is being done in the name of "inter-faith" dialogue is actually blasphemy against Yeshua.
Another post that was bothersome to me was the one where Len equates Yeshua with the pagan gods.. and says in that day His Name will be One (a quote from Scripture which is fine) Here's what Paul says in the book of Philemon:
I'm sure you are familiar with the verse, but when Yeshua's name is blasphemed, I feel obliged to proclaim truth:
Phil. 2:8-11Being found in appearance as a man, aHe humbled Himself by becoming bobedient to the point of death, even cdeath 1on a cross.
For this reason also, God bhighly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him cthe name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of bthose who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The name that will be lifted up, in that day is Yeshua!!
I would also add that both of the genealogies of Yeshua to fulfill the Scriptures with regards to His Davidic lineage and His lineage back to Adam but He was born of the Ruach HaKodesh, which is what makes His birth, His life, His death and His resurrection something that defies normal human understanding, but with God all things are possible.
The bottom line is:
Cor. 1:26-31 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of athe world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
Rav Shaul was heartily approving to the persecution of Jewish believers in Yeshua. He was trained by Gamaliel a member of the Sanhedrin who was the grandson of the great Jewish teacher Hillel ( who synagogues are still named after this day). Shaul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, circumcised on the 8th day who NEVER did anything against the traditions of his fathers, contrary to what people think that he became a "Christian" and started violating Torah. Look at his words:
Acts 28:17 After three days Paul called together those who were athe leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, cthough I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Look what Shaul/Paul did:
Acts 28:23-29 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at ahis lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly btestifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe. And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, saying,
‘aGO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“1bYOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, 2BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND 3YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’
“Therefore let it be known to you that athis salvation of God has been sent bto the Gentiles; they will also listen.”
When he had spoken these words, the Jews departed, having a great dispute among themselves.]
Shaul, who was probably a superior Torah scholar to Len ( no offense at all Len) taught Yeshua from Moses and the Prophets.. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees...who used to persecute Jewish believers.
Now one more and I'll rest my case because Torah says by the testimony of two or three witnesses the Word is confirmed:
One of my favorite stories:
Luke 24:13-27 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. But atheir eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. And He said to them, “What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?” And they stood still, looking sad.
One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, “Are You 1the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?” And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about aJesus the Nazarene, who was a bprophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, and how the chief priests and our arulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. “But we were hoping that it was He who was going to aredeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. “But also some women among us amazed us. aWhen they were at the tomb early in the morning,
and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. “Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.” And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that athe prophets have spoken! “aWas it not necessary for the 1Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Yeshua OPENED THEIR EYES to all that was said about Him in MOSES and the PROPHETS..
So we are left with this decision, Paul a student of one of the greatest teachers of his day, member of the Sanhedrin says that Yeshua is the promised one of Torah and the Prophets.
Yeshua Himself, says He is the Messiah of Israel, one with His Father...
Either these two are the biggests liars who ever lived or they have the truth. The fact that people have tried to discredit Yeshua for centuries, and He still hasn't gone away says a lot.
I agree that traditional Christianity has taken the Jewishness out of the gospels, which has put greater obstacles in the path of Jews seeking, but in spite of that today, by the work of the Ruach HaKodesh, many Jews are coming to know Yeshua. Some of them are very educated with rabbinic training and have a good handle on the Biblical Hebrew, so it's not just "secular Jews" as Len wanted to imply earlier. It is a work of the Ruach HaKodesh ( Holy Spirit) who "opens ones eyes" to give spiritual seeing, which as Maryanne and I talked about on her blog is different than physical seeing.
In spite of the fact that I am annoyed at the ridiculous comments that I hear sometimes on this blog, not naming any names (some I can't) I pray that eyes of Len, YS, Dorothy and a few others might be opened to the Scriptures.
Shalom and blessings,
Joyce
To Joyce (11:39 AM):
Regarding your statement: "In spite of the fact that I am annoyed at the ridiculous comments that I hear sometimes on this blog, not naming any names (some I can't) . . . "
Now, there's the condescending Joyce we have all come to know and love (LOL).
So, why don't you just name the "content" of the posts that you find so "ridiculous"?
Because the truth is the "names" on the posts are irrelevant. The "content" is all that really does and should matter.
To anonymous,
"Now, there's the condescending Joyce we have all come to know and love (LOL)."
You're hurting my feelings now..
kidding..
Joyce
To anonymous 7:31 AM and others,
Thank you for your comment and constructive criticism. In truth, I actually had no intentions of coming here again after I posted my last apology to Dorothy. I really have not wanted to be in a place where I was not wanted, nor to impose my presence (cyber or not) on anyone that can't stand me, or thinks I'm a wacko or full of myself, and whatever else was said about me. (I think Paul said I was shrill and scattered). And so I have not been back here since Thursday night, when I posted my apology.
It does appear that in the past 48 hours a lot of people have said many kind things to me and I sincerely appreciate that with all my heart and soul.
I want everyone to know that I do not intentionally ignore people's kind words about me, and if people have said other kind things about me on other threads, I am simply not aware of them, and was not deliberately trying to ignore or slight anyone.
I have been in constant pain (with my back) for what seems like a month now or more. I have not been doing much painting, writing in my blog, checking my emails, and have not even done any Christmas shopping. My one email address keeps filling up to limit because I have not been checking it regularly.The other two email addresses I check once every three or four days. When I do check my mail, I only read the messages that are critical. The only way I am comfortable is in bed with a heating pad on my back. Since I have a desktop computer and not a laptop, I have really not spent much time on the computer at all. I took a trip with my husband earlier in the week and deeply regretted it, as the long ride aggravated my condition. In addition, my internet access is down more than it's up lately. Today, it was down from the time that I got up this morning until about 3 this afternoon.This has become fairly typical and there's nothing I can do about it.
So coming here has not been a priority for me, and I hope no one will take that as an insult in any way.
I do want to take the time now to thank Doug in MI and all the anonymice for their very kind comments and concerns. They are very deeply appreciated. If I have missed someone with a specific name other than Doug, I am very sorry. It was unintentional.
Today I took the time to do another blog post in my blog, and combined with the time spent on it yesterday, I suspect I was working on that post for at least 6 or 7 hours. I have felt a nagging in my heart to write about the occultic dangers to today's youth, and although I was uncomfortable the entire time I was pounding away at the keyboard, I forced myself to do it anyway.
What I am trying to say is that I have not spent a lot of time on the computer -period, other than to write my blog post, and so coming here to check messages has not been a priority at all for me. Again, I was not deliberately ignoring anyone. I am sorry if I offended anyone.
I have friends right now, whose phone calls I have not returned, and I have many things that I have not done to prepare for Christmas. I simply can't do what I want to do at this point in time.
To anonymous 11:03- yes, I do feel that things are spinning out of control lately. It's so good to know that others have gone through that and life eventually gets normal again. However, I do feel the peace of God is with me right now, and I know in my heart that he is working on my problems, especially my son's problems and my mother's health as well as my back, and that the victory is already there, albeit in his time frame and in his particular format.
So I have peace right now in the Lord, and I am grateful for the support I have received here today and yesterday.
I have been hurt here,though, and since I evidently caused it, I deserved to suffer. But whenever I am hurt I always run away until it stops hurting. Hope everyone will understand if they don't see me around much in upcoming days. I just need some time to get my head and body back in order, so I can return as the person that was once liked and accepted here.
I hope I haven't said anything just now that offended anyone. If I did I am sorry.
The other night I did pray at length for those of you I know by name. For those of you known only as anonymous, it was more difficult to be specific. I think the prayers were important to my healing process because I felt extremely hurt by some of the things that were said to me,as well as deeply regretting what I might have said to hurt others. I often try to make jokes when I get upset. Usually they don't go off well and and then yes, I conclude I am misunderstood. Seems as though some of you would make good therapists, as you've helped me take a closer look at my shortcomings, which are many.
Thanks for all your help, friends.
God bless,
Maryanne
I also want to thank Dorothy for taking the time to call and talk with me personally this afternoon.
We had a very good chat in spite of the phone problems!
Hi Maryanne,
You are more "liked" here than you realize. Do the best you can to get the back problems looked after. I have them myself and they are awful to deal with.
Please note: I don't REALLY think you are full of yourself. Maybe it's best to explain this with a story:
Have you ever found yourself watching Martha Stewart on TV and saying to yourself, "I just want to SLAP HER!!!" Well, that's how I felt about you the other day when I read another one of your "CONVERT NOW OR DIE!" posts to Dorothy.
I hope you can forgive me for my nasty comment (however justified it may have, arguably, been. LOL). You are really quite a treasure when you are not channeling "Judy" (AKA Joyce).
Signed,
Another human being with many shortcomings (and a bad back)
Maryanne:
Take good care of yourself and please stop beating yourself up.
All of us on this blog are quire human with many weaknesses and faults . . . with several people here who enjoy reminding us of them.
Correction: that was "quite" human.
12/14/2008
Dear Joyce,
You contradicted my translation of Isaiah 9:5 by quoting the Jewish Publication Society version.
First, I did not make up the translation I used. It is the Judaica Press translation and is considered more authoritative than the JPS one which originally borrowed heavily from the King James and has been upgraded since but not completely. Her3e is a link to the Judaica Press Isaiah 9:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm
Second, even the JPS agrees with the JPS in its use of the past tense "has been born" and "has been named."
Third, the Orthodox ArtScroll Tanakh agrees with the Judaica Press.
While "a peaceable ruler" might be part of a man's name, "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" are far fetched even for Jesus.
Isaiah Ch. 10 is an epilogue to the events concerning Hezekiah described briefly in Ch. 9 and in great detail in Chas. 36-38. In the sister chapters, 9-10, Isaiah summarizes God’s saving of Hezekiah and the Jews from Sannacherib’s massive attack. That is the gist of the summary of 9:1:
Is. 9:1 The people who walked in darkness, have seen a great light; those who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, light shone upon them.
Ch. 10 continues to tell of Hezekiah’s miraculous victory and Assyria’s defeat. Compare 9:3 and 9:5 with 10:5, 21, 24, 26 and 27: Words repeated are in asterisks emphasized for comparison!
Is. 9:3 For, the *yoke* of his *burden* and the *staff* of his *shoulder*, the *rod* of the one who oppressed him have You broken, *as on the day of Midian*. --- 5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the *mighty God*, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
Is. 10: 5 Woe that Assyria is the *rod* of My wrath, and My fury is a *staff* in their hand[s]. --- 21 The remnant shall return, the remnant of Jacob, to the *mighty God*. --- 24 Therefore, so said the Lord God of Hosts, "Fear not, my people who dwell in Zion, Assyria; with a *rod* may he smite you, and his *staff* may he bear over you in the way of Egypt." --- 26 And the Lord of Hosts shall stir up a scourge against him, like the smiting of *Midian* at the Rock of Oreb, and His staff on the sea, and He shall carry him off after the manner of Egypt. 27 And it shall come to pass on that day, that his *burden* shall be removed from upon your *shoulder*, and his *yoke* from upon your neck, and the *yoke* shall be destroyed because of oil.
I previously noted the identical phrase “The zeal of the Lord shall do this” in Isaiah 9:6, 37:32 and 2 Kings 19:31; the only times the phrase appears in the Tanakh. They all describe the identical event, Hezekiah’s miraculous victory over Assyria.
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/14/2008
Dear Joyce,
You wrote that, “in the case of the Leviticus quote that Len used to try to prove that Yeshua is not Messiah, the Jewish version doesn't prove his point. I'm not going to go through every quote because I don't actually have time or inclination. What is being done in the name of "inter-faith" dialogue is actually blasphemy against Yeshua. “
Without the quote in question I cannot defend myself. Is this in my extensive message that conclusively disproved the missionary position that sin can be forgiven ONLY by bloodshed? That was a very extensive proof with many, many Scriptural quotes; not just Leviticus. I would appreciate your analyzing this important message instead of ignoring it.
You also said that I equated Jesus :with the pagan gods.” The only thing I recall saying about pagans is “Nearly two thousand years ago Paul started a process that brought a majority of the earth’s pagans to worship a monotheistic God, the God of Israel. I hope you forgive me when I say that, while Christianity represented a great leap forward for those pagans and for the world, it would represent a step backward for Jews.
How is that what you said? I said Paul REMOVED paganism from pagans. The second sentence simply means that, while normative Jews do not consider worship of Jesus as idolatry for gentiles it would be so for Jews, That Jews have tighter monotheistic standards than gentiles comes from:
Deut. 4: 19 And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them. 20 But the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron crucible, out of Egypt, to be a people of His possession, as of this day.
You may consider this Torah quote also blasphemous to Jesus and, if so, it is one of the milder ones I could quote.
I would also appreciate your explaining how one person can have two different genealogies (both of which contradict the Tanakh). Just one of the problems (this with Luke’s) is that the Messiah must not only be descended from David but also through Solomon (2 Sam. 12-16). Solomon appears nowhere in Luke’s genealogy.
Joyce said that Paul “was trained by Gamaliel a member of the Sanhedrin who was the grandson of the great Jewish teacher Hillel ( who synagogues are still named after this day). Shaul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, circumcised on the 8th day who NEVER did anything against the traditions of his fathers, contrary to what people think that he became a "Christian" and started violating Torah.”
Yes Paul is described as a Pharisee. But he and his father are also described (by Paul himself) as Roman citizens. He was born in Tarsus which is in present-day Turkey. (Acts 9:11, 21, and 21:39, and 22:3) His parents were Gentiles and he himself was evidently a convert. Note that in 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 he admits he was no above deception about his identity in the interest of his missioniziing. In Paul’s own words:
"I made myself a Jew to the Jews to win the Jews."
Look what Shaul/Paul did:
Joyce said that Paul “was probably a superior Torah scholar to Len ( no offense at all Len)”
Should I be honored by the comparison; especially by use of the word, “probably:-?
Joyce asserts that “Torah says by the testimony of two or three witnesses the Word is confirmed:” This is only in the case of a trial in a court. On the contrary, when it comes to belief idolatry by two, three or more people does nopt make it true. Even miracles do not prove anything. Here is what the TOrah says:
Deut. 13: 2 If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 3 and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," 4 you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul. 5 You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. 6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. 7 If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known." 8 Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; 9 You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him. 10 But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 11 And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 12 And all Israel shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer do any evil such as this in your midst. 13 If you hear in one of your cities which the Lord, your God, is giving you to dwell therein, saying, 14 "Unfaithful men have gone forth from among you and have led the inhabitants of their city astray, saying, 'Let us go and worship other gods, which you have not known.' " 15 Then you shall inquire, investigate, and ask thoroughly, and, behold, it is true, the matter is certain, that such abomination has been committed in your midst: 16 You shall surely strike down the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroy it with all that is in it and its livestock, with the edge of the sword.
Joyce said “that traditional Christianity has taken the Jewishness out of the gospels, which has put greater obstacles in the path of Jews seeking, but in spite of that today, by the work of the Ruach HaKodesh, many Jews are coming to know Yeshua.” The fact is that it is not Jews but missionaries who have put Jewishness in the Gospels because, they decided, this is a better way to entice Jews than beating them over the head with Christianity. You pretend to Judaize the Gospels by using lots of Hebrew words (I do not). But, by your own admission, you were raised in a Christian environment, not a Jewish one. The only way you could have learned those words is from messianic missionary tracts of which many exist.
Joyce said that “[some Jews] are very educated with rabbinic training and have a good handle on the Biblical Hebrew, so it's not just "secular Jews" as Len wanted to imply earlier. It is a work of the Ruach HaKodesh ( Holy Spirit) who "opens ones eyes" to give spiritual seeing,”
Not so at all! The Tanakh is full of stories of rogue kings who forsook God to worship idols. No one is immune from bad influences. For every one you show me I can show you two Christians who became Orthodox Jews or messianics who returned to Judaism; including pastors/ministers.
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/14/2008
Dear Joyce,
As I said in my first message I support Christians and am deeply thankful for their support of Israel. But such thankfulness stops at proselytizers doors. There is a so-called Eleventh commandment which is, "Do not give Hitler a posthumous victory by apostasizing.""
Joyce responded: Yes, for a Jew to believe in Yeshua is giving Hitler a victory posthumous....Hmmm. --- So let me understand, my belief in Yeshua is "apostasy" and I am helping Hitler because I reject the traditional Rabbinic position on Yeshua? That's a clever way to keep Jews from the Messiah.
Yes, Joyce, that is exactly what you are doing. Hitler’s main goal was to rid the world of Jews. A Jew who becomes a Jewish Christian will have descendents who are eventually Christian Christians. Most people in messianic, or “Jewish Christian” congregations are not even Jews even if they use Hebrew words. Jewish members are often married to Christians (foolishly thinking that such membership satisfies both spouses), and are ignorant about Judaism except for what the messianic “rabbis” tell them.
Joyce asked: “Where in the Bible does it say not to offend people with the truth of Yeshua?”
Right in Deut. 13:7-12, which I quoted in the prior message. Not only this, Jews are not even allowed to pronounce the names of other gods according to Scripturer.
What is “tinyurl?”
You concluded that “Isaiah 53 is Yeshua... and many Jews already know this,” but said not a single word about my extensively documented message on the subject. This is a classic missionary technique: avoid the issue and just repeat the mantra like a robot.
12/14/2008
Dear Leana,
You wrote: “The texts and verses I use to understand the coming of Jesus as the Messiah, while they might be mistranslated in English were quoted in the the Greek texts.”
By “the Greek texts” I assume you mean the Septuagint.
This version of the “Old Testament,” the Five Books of Moses part, was originally by Jews but this, as well as the other books, have become so corrupted, that Jews no longer consider them valid.
You also wrote: “I have utmost respect for the Jewish faith, as they have endured and persevered to keep their faith for thousands of years.”
Right! More specifically we have presered the authentic Jewissh Scriptures.
Peace and blessing,
Len
Len,
You are the one who persists in saying that I'm not a Jew, thus trying to do what Hitler did. Look what the Bible says:
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
Look what Paul says, and notice he doesn't talk in the past tense, but in the present:
Acts 22:3 ¶ “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of dCilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.
I didn't become a Christian and neither did Paul, so the fact that you think you can contradict the Scriptures proves that you are the one who is trying to eradicate the world of Jews that don't agree with you. The rabbis who follow Talmud do not have a monopoly on the interpretation of the Scriptures.
Even Judas who sold Yeshua for 30 pieces of silver knew he had made a mistake:
Matt. 27:3 ¶ Then when aJudas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty 1pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
Matt 3-6, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” But they said, “What is that to us?aSee to that yourself!” And he threw the pieces of silver into athe temple sanctuary and departed; and bhe went away and hanged himself. The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” ( these were the corrupt priests who handed Yeshua over to PIlate)
Thus fulfilling the prophecy of Jeremiah:
Matt. 27:9-10 Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel; AND 1THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER’S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME.”
Eye witnesses understood who HE was:
Matt. 27:54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him bkeeping guard over Jesus, when they saw cthe earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
The day of His death:
Mark 15:38 And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
The veil into the Holy of Holies was completely torn from top to bottom, signifying the grief of the the Father...looking upon His Son.
Here's how some rabbis reveal Yeshua:
http://www.bethmessiah.com/rabbis.htm
A famous rabbi before his death who had revelation of Yeshua:
http://www.yeshuahamashiach.org/Kaduri_names_Messiah.htm
http://tiny.cc/CQHdT
The Israeli news calls us Jews:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sEBAldf4L0
Rabbi Pertmuller, and Orthodox Jew who lived in the desert who believes in Yeshua:
http://tinyurl.com/6lv6pm
He is dead now, but all of his videos are on line and he looks pretty Jewish to me.. I suppose he's helped Hitler too....
There are Jews who have not yet publicly proclaimed their faith but are waiting for the moment when they will reveal this to the world. There are a whole group of rabbis in Israel, that are believers who follow Torah and know Yeshua.
I think Yeshua summed it up well when He was speaking to the religious leaders:
Matt. 15:1-9 Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they ado not wash their hands when they eat bread.” And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? “For God said, ‘aHONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’ “But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” he is not to honor his father or his mother1.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you: ‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”
Len, as Yeshua said and Isaiah said "your heart is far from Him and you worship in vain because you teach as doctrine the precepts of men..
You still have a chance to do teshuvah, but as I said before, I would not wait to long...
You can be like Judas, who betrayed Yeshua for 30 pieces of silver or like the corrupt religious leaders of His day or you can turn to Him in humility and turn from all the rubbish that is vain human wisdom and turn to the Living God.
Blessings and shalom ( which can only be had in Yeshua),
Joyce
Len,
I'm not going to address all of what you said because I have things to do and this would be a full-time job, but I just want to laugh that you said Paul was a Gentile convert...He was from the tribe of Benjamin, circumcised on the eighth day...
Having been trained by Gamiliel and been and having been a Pharisees of Pharisees who was standing by approving of the stoning of Stephen the first Jewish martyr who believed in Yeshua , Paul must have had quite a transformation to have become one of the most dedicated disciples...so there's hope for you too! Still praying...
Blessings,
Joyce
On the genealogy question:
http://www.matsati.com/genealogy.html
On the blasphemy question I dont have the time to go back to the pages and pages that you have wrote, but I hope you turn from that before Yeshua comes back. He is your only hope of salvation. All the "knowledge" of Talmud will not save you, only the Son of God can save you which is why His name is salvation. It's funny that the Jews do not really know the right pronunciation for YHVH.
My theory about this, which I cannot prove is that God gave us the only name we can be saved by and that is Yeshua. The Jews stopped saying the name because of the commandment to not make God's name "empty" . For the Christians on the blog's information...the High Priest would say it one time a year on Yom Kippur when he went into the Kadosh Kadoshim. Well there is no where to do that anymore...and over the years the pronunciation has been lost..
Perhaps God left the name under which you could be saved and you just haven't found it yet? Paul says a "partial blinding" would come to Israel, so...listen to Rabbi Paul and you might learn a thing of two.
Prov. 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has destablished all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His son’s name?
Surely you know!
I would say, His son's name is Yeshua!
Acts 4:10-12 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that 1aby the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom bGod raised from the dead — by this name this man stands here before you in good health.
“He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. “And there is salvation in ano one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
He is the Rock of our salvation, the chief cornerstone, the bread of life, the living water, the Alpha and Omega...If you reject him because you believe you will lose your Jewishness in believing in the Son of God, you will be the one to lose..The rabbis will not save you, or all their writings and arguments, and vain human wisdom and traditions which seek to annul the Word of God.. If you cannot see Yeshua, pray that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would open the eyes of your understanding... As I'm sure you are aware the word "raah" is about spiritual seeing to..
The point is Len, the rabbis have bought the lie that following Yeshua makes one lose their Jewishness..If you reject the Torah and the Living Torah, then you have lost your Jewishness. It's not by following the "traditions of man" that you will save one hair on your head, so cry out to God and ask Him and stop trying to persuade the people on this blog. Most of them, except Dorothy and perhaps a couple of others who call themselves "Christian" do understand who Yeshua is.
Dorothy may think she sent you here to prove she's right, but I will just add you to the list of people I'm praying for and May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob hear my prayers.
Shalom,
Joyce
12/14/2008
Dear Dorothy,
You wrote "Jews tend to be more successful than other groups, so in large numbes they identify with whoever is in power or who is a winner. Hot shot Jews like doing business with powerful others in and outside of the Jewish community, so ideals can go out the window. "
Like so many dangers, Judaism anticipated this one. That is why the Torah says:
Deut. 16:18 You shall set up judges and law enforcement officials for yourself in all your cities that the Lord, your God, is giving you, for your tribes, and they shall judge the people [with] righteous judgment. 19 You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show favoritism, and you shall not take a bribe, for bribery blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts just words. 20 Justice, justice shall you pursue, that you may live and possess the land the Lord, your God, is giving you.
Lev. 19:15 You shall commit no injustice in judgment; you shall not favor a poor person or respect a great man; you shall judge your fellow with righteousness.
And from the Talmud: 3.Be cautious with the ruling authorities, for they befriend a person only for their own needs. They appear to be friends when it is beneficial to them, but they do not stand by a person at the time of his distress.
That does not make it foolproof because we know of even Orthodox Jews that got into trouble such as Jack Abramoff. We consider such a desecration of God's Name. Just because some violate the Torah that doesn't make the teaching any less valid; in fact more so.
Have a great week,
Len
12/14/2008
To: "Follower of Yeshua"
I have no clue hy “follower of Yeshua” doesn’t want to give his/her name, and I do not usually respond to anonymous posts, but I will make an exception here.
>>Actually, I thought Len's "innocent" remark about equating Jews who are "apostate" because they receive Yeshua, as giving a Hitler a victory is a very offensive remark. Hitler killed my family and by the way he killed Jews that had "converted" to try to save their backs too, so it was the blood that mattered to Hitler.”
Hitler murdered Jews having at least Jewish three granparents. As I noted, Jewish Christian descendents quickly become Christian Christians.
On Isaiah 53 you sid: “Israel's suffering was a judgement from God for our "apostasy" way before Yeshua came on the scene. Don't blame Yeshua for Israel's apostasy because the exiles are many years before His birth. I'm a Jew, but very aware of the sins of my people, that were committed for centuries. Yes, we killed the prophets. If someone brought the truth we turned against them. “
What does this have to do with Isaiah 53???
The Jewish Bible is the only religious work that criticizes its own people. That is one of the reasons it is more believable than the others. We read biblical criticisms in the synagogue all the time. But the Bible also contains many redemptive passage like the ones in Isaiah Ch. 53 and 54 that are coupled to the bad deeds:
Is. 53: 10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. 11 From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. 12 Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
Is. 54:7 "For a small moment have I forsaken you, but with great mercy will I gather you. 8 With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord. 9 "For this is to Me [as] the waters of Noah, as I swore that the waters of Noah shall never again pass over the earth, so have I sworn neither to be wroth with you nor to rebuke you. 10 For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you. --- 17 Any weapon whetted against you shall not succeed, and any tongue that contends with you in judgment, you shall condemn; this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their due reward from Me, says the Lord.
Deut. 28:is another of the chapters read publicly annually in our synagogues so you are not telling me anything new.
>>Again in the book of Isaiah, Hosea, Ezekiel, Jeremiah....etc. All the prophets warned Israel about apostasy.
And they contiunue to warn about it but some Jews, including some right here, talk but do n ot listen.
>>Israel is not the suffering servant because Israel SINNED!! Yeshua did not sin and therefore is the only one who fits the description of the suffering servant..
If you did not read or comment on my very extensive message on Isaiah 53 that gives the lie to your assertion you have no standing to comment on the issue.
Len
Len,
It's not that I didn't read your message...It's that I didn't agree with your message..Friends that have superior knowledge of the Hebrew than I believe it's about Yeshua, so I'm not going to try to convince you any further.
A Sabra I know read it and her face just went blank...She read it in her Hebrew Bible..she could not explain it.. She did not have an answer to who the Suffering servant was other than Yeshua and she was raised by Orthodox rabbis, educated as an Orthodox.
As I said, this blog is not a full-time job so I can't and won't devote hours to answering all of the things that you have written. We have some fundamental differences of opinion and I will pray that your eyes are opened, as I did for one of the Jewish members of my family who did receive Yeshua, finally before they died..
I know that God loves the people of Israel, including the Jews and wants them to be justified, so I think He will answer this prayer one day.
Joyce, believer in Yeshua.
JOYCE
Now I'm puzzled. You say you are Jewish yet you say you were raised as a Catholic because your background was hidden. Now you say you helped a Jewish member of your family to convert. It could only have been hidden if you knew no other members of this family.
Since so much of your message rests on your claim to be Jewish, when were you a practicing Jew?
By the way if your family was Jewish you would know that the statement that conversion of a Jew gives Hitler another victory is a statement that conversion means a Jew is lost to the Jewish community, a loss just as profound as if they had been killed.
Maybe in your Messianic world a Jew can be a Christian and a Christian can be a Jew, but it doesn't work that way in either the Jewish or Christian communities.
Dorothy
Dorothy,
My whole family left Catholicism quite a long time ago ..but came to know Yeshua. They were/are all strong supporters of Israel.
Here's your statement:
"Maybe in your Messianic world a Jew can be a Christian and a Christian can be a Jew, but it doesn't work that way in either the Jewish or Christian communities."
I don't think Jews who believe in Yeshua are Christians..Some Jews may decide to be Christian and those assimilated Jews one might say are no longer truly Jews..but God knows who they are just like He knows where the assimilated tribes of the Northern Kingdom are.
Jews, that remain attached to their idenity as Jews and follow Torah are exactly what we find in the Gospels and Epistles. What gets confusing is the terminology and the translation of words. For example I don't believe Yeshua said "on this rock I will build my church" because the Greek word for church is ekklesia which is used in the Greek Septuagint to refer to the qahal in the Wilderness.
The word "Christian" was used by the Romans to insult the believers in Yeshua, but the Jews themselves considered them a sect of Judaism, just like the numerous other sects of Second Temple Judaism. Simon Bar Kochba was considered the Mashiach by some Jews of Second Temple Judaism. That did not make them any less Jewish. Some Lubivitchers consider the "rebbe" a Mashiach, we don't say they are not Jews.
The issue at stake here is not whether Yeshua was or wasn't a Jew, or whether He did or didn't follow Torah. The issue at stake here is, is He the Messiah or isn't He. Your a Jew who doesn't think so ( for the moment) I'm a Jew that does.
I believe that the Torah is still valid. I observe Biblical dietary laws, the mo'ed, etc. I am completely from a Jewish ancestry, so why am I any less Jewish than you? I don't follow Rabbinc Talmud Judaism. I follow Yeshua's teaching on the Torah. I just don't have the same rabbi as you. My rabbi is rabbi Yeshua, who happens also to be God incarnate, King, Priest, Savior, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Emmanual...God with us...etc. the Bread of life, the Living Water, the Rock that was with Moses in the Wilderness.
The only way I recognize Yeshua is because of the Torah and Prophets, or I wouldn't even know who He is. He is born in Bethlehem as Micah said He would be. None of His bones were broken as the Pslamist said, even though His garments would be divided. He is a the "son" that God would provide when Abraham was not required to slay Isaac. He is the the brother from Israel whose brothers betrayed Him and yet He provided the Bread of Life and will reconcile His brothers one day under the Covenant of Shalom. In spite of what Len says, He's the suffering servant of Isaiah. He is the one who was born of a virgin ( He was born of the Ruach HaKodesh) He is the Lamb of Pessah, He is the bread with out levain ( sinless) He is the Firstfruits of the resurrection. He healed the lame, the blind the lepers, He sets the captives free. He laid down His life so we could have Life eternal, He will come one day and set His feet down on the Mt. of Olives and the Jews will look upon Him whom they pierced and weep as one weeps for an only begotten Son. He will crush the head of the serpant.. He is the seed of the Woman in Genesis ( Bereshit). He is a prophet greater than Moses who ascends and descends. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all Creation. He is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. He is One with His father, He is the Prince of Shalom, He is wonderful redeemer, Mighty Counselor, and of His kingdom there is no end.
I don't know what your awaited Messiah looks like, but mine is perfect and blameless, the spotless Lamb, He will restore all Israel, He will restore Gan Eden , He will reign from Jerusalem, He will put His enemies under His feet. He sits at the right hand of God the Father, He was circumsized on the eighth day, He is from the line of David. His name will be above all others. He is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. He is the davidic King who will bring the two houses of Israel together.
On the day that He comes back, you will not want to be on the wrong side of this issue:
Rev. 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that bwith it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
I think the traditional church ( won't say the name but you don't like them either according to your comments on the Israel forum) did a terrible disservice to my people. There were myriads of Jewish followers of Yeshua, and as the Gentiles came to know Yeshua they did not follow Paul's advice which was to not be arrogant.
The nations were supposed to attach themselves to the olive triee, but what happened instead was they formed a "new entity" called "a church" . Okay, God sovereignly permitted this, but according to my Bible in the Book of Revelations to get into the New Jerusalem you have to enter by the gates who have the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. There is no "church" gate. I don't believe there will be two separate entities called "the Church" and "Israel". I believe there will be one people under Torah, and under King Yeshua who is the Living Torah.
Because I see things this way, that doesn't fit into your model of how you see Jews, Judaism, Israel, Messiah etc. but whose to say that you are right.?
Whose to say, that I'm not right. You see Dorothy, when God called me, I wasn't looking for Him. I wasn't seeking Him and I certainly wasn't trying to be Jewish. He gave me my new Creation Identity in Yeshua and He restored my Jewish roots which indirectly probably because of Hitler, pograms, the Inquisition and any other number of antisemitic events had been removed, but He showed me that it is not a contradiction to believe in the Jewish Messiah and to be a Jew, which is something that just goes over your head..
I understand that you don't get this because it is revelation. Revelation is not intellectual it is from God and I have always sought God with all my heart. I was never just satisfied with "religion". My relationship with my Abba father is being in the place of HaMaqom...face to face... You should know if you studied the parachat this week and studied how Jacob's name was changed to Israel.
God changed my name. I wrestled with Him and at the place of my deepest need He met me and spoke to me. I have had many trials and things in my life that have only made my faith in Him stronger. I love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and I consider that I was there at Mt. Sinai ( as the Jews say) when Moses received Torah. I am attached to my people Israel.
It is for that reason that I continue to write on this blog to testify to this spiritual reality. You can bring the biggest rabbi in and he will not convince me otherwise because I have seen God face to face and I lived...He gave me the name and I am a true descendant of my distant grandfather Israel, and you cannot take that away and neither can the rabbis because God gave it to me and He also showed me that He and Yeshua are the same. Yeshua was there in the Wilderness with our people. He has always been there. He just didn't manifest in the flesh. He was there at the foundations of the world, which is to say, He is also the Creator.
God is the most righteous judge that could ever live, but one day, He came down off of His throne to redeem a lost and fallen world. This is one of the greatest mysteries that could ever be and that is why we can only receive it by faith and by His revelation, so I continue to pray that you could join the ranks of the Jews who have found their Messiah. You don't have to give Hitler any credit because you will still be a Jew, just one that already knows who Messiah is and knows who they're looking for to come back.
Sorry for the long response, but I could speak and write about Yeshua all day and night long..
Shalom,
Joyce
ps Dorothy, I'm praying for you that God's will would be don't in your life. Please feel free to send any Jewish friends here that you want because I will pray for them too as I am now praying for Len and YS..I do have a great burden for my people. That's not to say I don't pray for non-Jews..I do, but I do have a special burden for my people.
Joyce
pps One more thing about Yeshua. He is Lord of the Shabbat and give us rest from our labors and will give us Shabbat rest in the Millennial Kingdom..I could probably come up with a lot more, but I have to run now...
JOYCE
You never answered my question. Your story doesn't make sense. However, it could be like Obama's first book...it may not be the truth but that's how he says he remembered it.
I supposed on a website where Protestants, whatever denomination, feel free to say and pray, anything should be expected without criticism. Saying Jesus is a "Get out of jail free" card.
It's a free blog and a free country Joyce. Enjoy! Thanks to you I keep growing in patience and tolerance.
Dorothy
JOYCE
PS Thanks to you I may even get to be very tolerant and patient with Obama supporters.
Dorothy
One more last thing...I feel like Peter Falk in Colombo..
( for those who are old enough to remember him)...
The Christian world is far from unified, so there are many Christians who do recognize Jews who stay Jews and believe in Messiah. Then there is a whole other camp of Gentiles who want to observe Torah. They want to attach themselves not only to Yeshua but to Torah.
There are believers from the nations who want to join to the olive tree, Israel...maybe some of these are from the scattered tribes, maybe not? Whatever this is, it is a group of people who are not Jews but have decided they do not want to be "a church" but part of the qahal..Israel. When the mixed multitude left Egypt with Israel, they were treated exactly like Israel. They had the same obligations and privileges. If we read the Scriptures carefully, there are many peoples that attached to Israel over the centuries who were from the nations, but chose to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...This group today, also recognizes Yeshua, and acts like Israel.
The other group are the Christian Zionists who usually hold to dispensational theology and do see a separation between the Church and Israel, but they love Israel and support fully the right of Israel to the land. Some of their motives are sometimes self-serving, they want to be raptured, but this is not always true. I have met many Christian Zionists who truly love the Jewish people and Israel and they are strong supporters in the political arena of Israel. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the John Hagees of the world, they stand for Israel.
So there you go...not so neat and clean. Among the Messianics there is such a gamut I'm not going to take the time to explain right now, but similar to Talmudic Judaism, they don't all agree by any means...
A traditional Christian would accuse me of being a Judaizer, but that's cause most of the time they don't understand who the Judaizers were. They were people who were trying to "earn " their salvation by works of law, which is not exactly what it might sound like, but according to some scholars it is sectarian observance required to enter the particular community. Another words, circumcision would be required for salvation.
Clearly Abraham was justified by faith, not by circumcision,... Abraham looked forward to Yeshua's coming and believed. Ciricumcision justifies no one. It's an outward sign, but not a means of justification.
Among scholars who now have access to the Dead Sea Scrolls, there is wide spread disagreement today about what Paul was really saying. There are more scholars seem to be saying that Paul was not against Torah. One of the great difficulties of the Apostolic Scriptures is what you do with Paul. If Paul was for Torah, that changes everything.
There are many of these kind of scholarly debates going on and so some of the perceptions of who Paul really was has not been settled. With Jews coming to faith in Yeshua, much of the Hebrew mindset which was previously unrecognized by Christians is coming to light.
I think what we actually look like in the kingdom under Messiah is going to be very different than most of us think. We are probably all in for a few surprises..
Joyce
Dorothy,
Glad to help you build character...
I'll try to explain my history a little some other time. I thought I did explain it though..Right now I have to run. I've already spent more time on any blog than I care to today.
Joyce
12/15/2008
Dear Joyce,
When quoting Acts to praise the Law you should also look at Galatians:
3:10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12: And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:
When Paul was arrested we read in Acts 16:
37 But Paul said to them, “They have beaten us in public without trial, men who are Romans, and have thrown us into prison; and now are they sending us away secretly? No indeed! But let them come themselves and bring us out.”
In a sppech to the Jews afterr his arrest we read in Acts 22:
25 But when they stretched him out with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, “Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?”
26 When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and told him, saying, “What are you about to do? For this man is a Roman.”
27 The commander came and said to him, “Tell me, are you a Roman?” And he said, “Yes.”
28 The commander answered, “I acquired this citizenship with a large sum of money.” And Paul said, “But I was actually born a citizen.”
29 Therefore those who were about to examine him immediately let go of him; and the commander also was afraid when he found out that he was a Roman, and because he had put him in chains.
The Ebionites assert that Paul's parents were Gentiles. Saul was the first in his family to convert. If Paul's father was also a Roman or Tarsian he must have been a member of a native phyla or tribe and participated in pagan worship. Then Paul could not have been born a Jew.
At the very least you have to admit that Paul's origin is hazy.
Joyce accused me of advocatinhg “the precepts of men” but all my citations have been from the Bible; citations that you cannot answer; so you don’t, claiming it is because of lack of time. But you have plenty of time to quote the New Testament, knowing that I doi not accept it as authoritative.
12/15/2008
Joyce wrote “My theory about this, which I cannot prove is that God gave us the only name we can be saved by and that is Yeshua. --- Perhaps God left the name under which you could be saved and you just haven't found it yet? Paul says a "partial
Let me help you, Joyce, to find the identity of our savior.You are giving Jesus the credit that belongs to God alone.
[Hosea 13:4]
I am the Lord your God, Who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but Me, no Savior except Me!
[Deuteronomy 4:35]
You are the ones who have been shown, so that you will know that God is the Supreme Being, and there is none other besides Him!
[Deuteronomy 4:39]
Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other!
[Deuteronomy 32:39]
See, now, that I, I am He -- and no god is with Me . . . .
[I Samuel 2:2]
There is none holy as the Lord. There is none beside Thee; neither is there any Rock like our God.
[I Kings 8:27]
For will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Thee; how much less this house that I have built?
[I Kings 8:60]
So that all the nations of the earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other!
[II Kings 19:19]
Now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand, so that all kingdoms on earth may know that You alone, O Lord, our God. [ also Psalm 113:5]
[Isaiah 40:18]
To whom then will you liken God? To what likeness will you compare Him?
[Isaiah 40:25]
“To whom then will you liken Me, that I should be his equal?” says the Holy One.
[Isaiah 42:8]
I am the Lord, that is My name, and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images!
[Isaiah 43:10-11]
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor will there be one after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
[Isaiah 44:6-8]
This is what the Lord says, Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty, “I am the first and I am the last; apart from Me there is no God! Who then is like Me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare it and lay it out before Me . . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
[Isaiah 44:24]
Thus said the Lord, your Redeemer, the One who formed you from the womb, “I am the Lord Who makes everything, Who stretched forth the heavens alone, Who spread out the earth by Myself.”
[Isaiah 45:5-6]
I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God . . . . I will strengthen you . . . in order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other!
[Isaiah 45:21-22]
. . . Who announced this from before, who declared it from the distant past? Is it not I, the Lord, and there is no God apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other!
[Isaiah 46:5]
To whom shall you liken Me and make Me equal and compare Me that we may be alike?
[Isaiah 46:9]
Remember the first things of old, that I am God and there is no other; I am God and there is none like Me.
[Isaiah 48:11]
. . . and My honor I will not give to another.
[Joel 2:27]
You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and I am the Lord your God, there is no other; and My people shall never be ashamed.
[Malachi 2:10]
Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why should we betray, each one his brother, to profane the covenant of our forefathers?
[Psalm 73:25]
Whom have I in heaven but You? The earth has nothing I desire besides You.
[Psalm 81:8-9]
Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you; O Israel, if you would listen to Me! Let there be no strange god among you; nor shall you worship any foreign god.
[Nehemiah 9:6]
You alone are the Lord; You made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens and all their host, the earth and all that is upon it, the seas and all that is in them, and You give life to all, and the heavenly host bow down before You.
[I Chronicles 17:20]
O Lord, there is none like You, neither is there any God beside You, according to all that we have heard with our ears!
12/15/2008
Dear Joyce,
Since you are telling me about rabbis who love Jesus you may be interested in a real life example from a Southerrn Baptist pastor I met on line about 15 years ago and have stayed in touch with. Following are two on-line messages from him; in 1999 and 2002:
For a starter I thought you might be interested in two of Tim’s old messages before and after he converted. They were both posted publicly so I am not invading his privacy.
Subj: My story
Date: 11/06/1999 6:27:53 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: TEClontz
To: Ze rabbi, SuzanneU, Tiyrah, Hutchmor, PatiGreene
To: Len613, Rwnn40, MiriamL613, PistisinJC
To: Annietread, Baruchabba, Brettcole, D1453R
To: Hebroot, JoeWallack, KumiOriOH, KYG in SAC
To: LuvMercy, Sasdi, STSJDEL, Tukalah, Unicornes
I don't believe there is a drop of Abraham's natural blood flowing through my veins.
I became a Christian when I was 11. I had wanted to read a book over a 1000 pages long, and the Bible was a handy one to pick. At the time I did not believe in G-d, but by the time I reached Leviticus G-d had convinced me that He was real. I continued reading, and as I read the New Testament I came to believe in Christ, and confessed my sins to him and asked him to forgive me and come into my life. From that time on until this year I was a Christian. I have led Bible study groups, taught seminary, and pastored for 8 years in several Baptist churches. My Christianity was never questioned, and people from around the country would be referred to me for spiritual guidance. I realize that none of these external things "makes one a Christian", but it is necessary to show that I was not only accepted, but sought out for counsel.
I even received fan mail from several high ranking Jews for Jesus (and I'll make those on my "side" miffed for saying this, but these are really nice guys and their heart is in the right place, although I disagree with them).
When I started becoming "Jewish" in my understanding, the instant assumption is that "he was never a Christian" or "he just is uninformed." A coworker even brought me a 4 Spiritual Laws tract -- when I used to be asked to WRITE tracts.
To this day I get calls from the local Christian radio station asking me to record more Christian devotionals for them.
To this day I get calls from the local Christian TV station begging me to host some more shows for them.
I understand that it is comforting for some to say that I never knew Christ, since it is so obvious to them that Jesus is the Messiah, and only someone totally blind could fail to see it. Surely someone who has understood, who's spirit was made alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit... surely such a person could never stop understanding! Something must be wrong! He must be unstable, or a liar, or ignorant, or beguiled, or snared by Satan, or, or, or...
It is comforting to think that, but the truth is that as I worked on my New Testament I researched the passages cited from the Tanakh, and found them one by one distorted, twisted in wording, meaning, and application, ripped out of context, and sometimes turned completely opposite from the original passage.
I was also asked by a Messianic publishing house to write a book detailing the past and future of Messianic doctrine. In the process, again, I found the Jewish side to be true and the Christian side to be mistaken.
I have tremendous respect for Christians and Christianity. Many of the most profound and beautiful words ever penned are found in the New Testament. Some of the most godly men in the world are Christians.
I do not leave in anger. I leave with great fondness and admiration.
But I also leave to grow in greater truth.
G-d truly is a just and loving G-d -- holy and merciful -- not acquitting the guilty but showing mercy to ten thousand generations of those who repent.
Tim
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
From: TECLONTZ
Jan-24, 2002 1:16 pm
To: RIVKAAIDEL (34 of 84)
52.34 in reply to 52.1
A friend of mine forwarded me a link to the forum. Most of them I ignore, but this one struck a chord.
So, here's my story.
Why/how did you become interested in Judaism at first? For future converts, why are you interested in Judaism?
I don't know why or when exactly my interest in Judaism started, to be perfectly honest. When I was 11 I wanted to read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich because I had heard about the holocaust and wanted to know what happened. My mother confiscated it because she didn't want me to read about human ugliness at that age.
I read the Bible instead. Yes, a Christian one -- but I started in Genesis and went straight through. I was a G-d fearer long before I was a Christian, and I identified with the people of the book.
By the time I was 14 I had read the Bible a couple of times, and my church youth group was visiting different religious groups. One was Greek Orthodox (which I thought was interesting). Another was a Reform temple. Okay, so it was Judaism-lite. But I felt at home in an unidentifiable way. I continued to read what I could. By the time I was 18 I had found a Hebrew teacher and was terrifying my parents by practicing gutturals upstairs in my bedroom. They've been fearful about Judaism for most of these 23 years of my quest.
During the next few decades I read the Bible nearly a dozen times, created my own edition of the New Testament (you can find it at Project Gutenberg online). I also earned a doctorate in theology and pastored three Southern Baptist churches in GA and NC.
I loved Jews as Jews and Judaism as Judaism. I would argue theology, but for the most part just wanted to be a friend. Sure, I had the New Testament belief in the way of actually BEING Jewish. But I didn't believe in trying to convert Jews. I couldn't see people who followed G-d's own Torah as being destined for "hell" and definitely couldn't say "you're the chosen people" and "you're going to hell" in the same breath. Those are mutually exclusive statements. They cannot both be true -- and I knew it.
Three years ago I was researching the footnotes for my New Testament edition and studied the places the NT quotes the Tanakh. I had READ these things over and over again -- but I couldn't SEE until I did a focused study. I knew what I was looking for, and I found it. The New Testament claims to fulfill the "Old Testament" over and over, but each of those places are ripped out of context, misapplied, and often misworded.
There was no longer any barrier to becoming Jewish.
It took three years, and multiple trips back and forth across the country, but this 29th of Tevet I completed my conversion with an Orthodox Beit Din in New York (which is even more complicated since I live in GA and work in CA on a government contract).
So, uh, I'm less than two weeks old! lol
Why did (do) you want to be Jewish?
I was asked that last week by a fellow who was saying "You only had to fulfill 7 mitzvot and now you have 613!" My answer was, "why do the least you can do instead of the most?" Also in that vein -- once I knew the truth I couldn't stay as far away from it as possible. That's nonsense. I've always wanted to be ever closer to G-d. My heart has never changed about that.
What was (is) the hardest part of your decision to become Jewish?
My family. My kids are fine with it. It was the last nail in the coffin to a marriage. My father spent two hours a few weeks ago trying to convert me back. Everyone is constantly trying to get me to eat ham. It's tough. Plus -- imagine being a Jewish convert in the Bible belt where you used to be a Southern Baptist pastor! Yikes!
What was (is) the easiest part?
Truth.
What is the greatest thing about being Jewish?
Honesty. My physical actions, my life, my time, and my beliefs are in harmony with each other and with Torah.
Len,
I have never heard anyone say that Paul's origins were in question. Here's what he says:
Rom. 11:1-2 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? bMay it never be! For cI too am an Israelite, 1a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He bforeknew. cOr do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
We have no means of knowing how Paul acquired his Roman citizenship. Some speculate though his father for some act he had performed, or his grandfather, but the Greek word used to say Paul descended from Benjamin is very specific. it's "sperma" which has the same meaning as the Hebrew word "zera" Thayer's lexicon definition:
4690. spe÷rma; sperma, spermatos, to (speiroœ, which see), from Homer down, Hebrew zera{, the seed (from which anything springs); a. from which a plant germinates; a. properly, the seed
...so he was not a god-fearer or convert of which there were many. If someone had done a full conversion and been circumcised at that time they would have had the full rights and responsibilities as a native born Israelite, including access to the court which was not the "Gentiles" Court. The separation between Jews and Gentiles by the dividing wall at the Temple was for the god-fearers who had not undergone ritual circumcision.
As for this man who was a Baptist and turned to Judaism, I can actually understand it in one way, if he was not born-again. He would see that the Scriptures were given to Israel, God promises to continue to work with Israel through to the end and he asked very logical questions. I don't agree with his conclusion however, to convert to Judaism.
I think that historical Christianity has obscured many of the verses that speak specifically of God's dealings with Israel, by putting the new covenant on their heart.. The historical church has appropriated these promises in what is called "Replacement theology" i.e. the Jews rejected Jesus so the Church inherits the promises to Israel. That would make God a liar and we know He is not, so I do not see the Scriptures this way.
I see rather that God has always been dealing with Israel, but there was always room for those from the nations to enter into the covenant if they attached themselves to the God of Israel and to His people. The easiest example of that is Ruth of course who is a Moabite and who King David comes through. Now the rabbis will try to say she converted to Judaism, but that's a stretch because Judaism did not exist at that time. She did however attach herself to God, and to His people.
The Bible says that Israel was divided into two kingdoms, which you and I agree on, but the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom are mixed with the nations now to such a degree that they are unrecognizable except to God, Himself who is all knowing.. This split according to the book of Kings was from God. I believe the birthright was actually divided between Judah and Ephraim.
The reason that I say this is because when Israel is blessing Ephraim, who is only a grandson, but was elevated to level of son through adoption ( had an Egyptian mother btw) and was given the double portion., He blesses him even though he was the younger brother that Ephraim will become the melo hagoyim, which I believe is fulfilled in the scattering of the tribes, which Ephraim represented. Another words the seed of Ephraim ( and the other northern tribes) is mixed with the nations. Judah on the other hand was promised the position of kingship and we know that thanks to Judah, we still have Torah. Had Judah not been faithful to preserve the Torah scrolls over the centuries, we would be in trouble.
However God said He will restore ALL of Israel. I believe that when the tribes committed spiritual harlotry by once again worshipping the golden calf and the baals, etc. God literally divorced Ephraim. I believe the book of Hosea is very clear on this subject. However, there is a future promise of restoration, where God will bring the two houses into the Land, unite them, put Torah on their heart and they will be ruled by a Davidic King.
I believe in order for Israel to become the "bride" that it was meant to be the spouse had to die.i.e Yeshua. God could not marry Israel who had violated the marriage contract of Torah, but God also provided a means where Torah could be put on Israel's heart. Sin had to be cleansed at the mercy seat in heaven. It would not be adequate for the High Priest to come year after year and "cover" the sins with the blood of bulls and goats, but rather, Yeshua cleansed the sins of His people once and for all.
It's very interesting that the nations have believed in Yeshua, another words they recognize Him as Messiah, but the Jews don't. When Joseph was in exile providing the nourishment for his people, His own brothers could not see who he was. I believe this story points us directly to Yeshua. Judah is the one who stepped up to the plate and stepped in for Benjamin whose name coincidently means "son of my right hand". In so doing, Joseph was able to reveal himself to Judah, and to his brothers.
I believe this will story will be repeated. Yeshua was betrayed by His own brothers, but He will reveal Himself to the Jews and is already doing this today one by one. The reconciliation of the two sticks will happen.
From the part of the historic church, I think a lot of damage has been done. The church became arrogant because they recognized Yeshua and the Hebraic roots of our faith have been hidden and replaced with things that are not from Torah. Now look at what Ephraim did. They didn't want to go worship in Jerusalem anymore under Jerohboam so they went to Samaria., Little by little they went into idolatry and replaced the feasts of the Eternal in Jerusalem with other things in Samaria. I believe there are people from the Northern Tribes from all the nations where the gospel has gone that could be in the churches. God said He would make Israel as numerous as the "sands of the sea". Certainly the 15 million Jews ( even with all the killing over the centuries) do not represent all Israel.
The Lord revealed this to me when I discovered my own Jewish roots ( I am from Judah, not Ephraim). I was praying and studying the Scripture and He revealed to me the plan for these two sticks. It will take two things. Yeshua and Torah. We cannot have one and not the other. The nations, with Ephraim who became the melo hagoyim, have the bread of life - Yeshua, just like Joseph. Without Joseph there would be no Israel.. no food, no life!
Judah has Torah, and King Yeshua is from Judah. We need both parts of the first-born blessing to come together to have Shalom... another words for all Israel to be saved. The nations are part of this plan to, but they must first see that God has never stopped dealing with Israel, so they must attach themselves to the God of Israel, His Torah, and His living Torah Yeshua. This is the Peace Plan.
Everyone has a peace plan today, but there is only one peace plan, and that is Yeshua. I am not going to give you all the Scripture references because I've already done it on this blog and I know you know the stories by heart.. You love Torah and so do I.
I have met my Messiah. I have had a name change from being "a goy" to Israel. There is more to my life story which I don't feel free to share here for a variety of reasons, but I have encountered the Living God. I have had my "burning bush" experience, but I won't go into that here either.
You will just have to open your heart and make a leap of faith if you want to see your Messiah. He's in the Scriptures. You just have to look for Him..
You don't believe Isaiah 53 is Yeshua. I will quote you an ancient rabbi:
The meaning of " He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities " is that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of Him being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that this is the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities must endure and suffer them for himself. Rabbi Elijah de Vidas
Rabbis with one voice, accept and affirm this opinion that the prophet is speaking of King Messiah. Rabbi Moshe Alshekh.
There is proof after proof confirmed by rabbis that I could write here, but it will just go in one ear and out the other. I can give you a list of Tanakh prophecies and their fulfillment but if your heart is closed, I will be wasting my time.
I will pray for your Len and Dorothy, and YS. I'm sure you are a very nice and sincere man who is convinced with all of his heart that he is on the right path. In a sense you are because Torah could not be a wrong path as some Christians think. God gave us Torah, as Paul did not deny Torah or annul it. The problem is that Torah itself cannot save us.
God saved the Israelites before He gave them Torah. He delivered them by His strong right hand. It wasn't their own righteousness that saved them. He brought them out as a bunch of slaves and we too are slaves, slaves to sin. I don't care who you are and how good you think you are, no one is righteous, not one. All have fallen short of the glory of God.
We have never kept Torah...We can't keep Torah perfectly. We can aim at the target, but we will never be holy in our own righteousness. Only God is Holy. He is so Holy, we cannot approach Him on the basis of our righteousness. This is why He made a priesthood, to show us. This is why only Moses could go up to Mt. Sinai and dwell with Him in the cloud. If anyone else drew close to the mountain except the elders who went part way, they would die..
God was teaching us that there was only one way to come, just like with Noah and the door to the ark the door to the Tabernacle, etc. He always sent intermediaries to teach us about and point us to Yeshua. There's so many hints about what He was going to do, but the question is, "do we hear His voice?" We cannot draw near to him, as Isaiah said "because I am a man of unclean lips". Isaiah who was pretty darn good was a man of "unclean lips".
Have you been into the Holy of Holies lately Len? That is relationship.. You and I cannot go there on our own merit.
The pillar of smoke by day and fire by night was a manifestation of God's presence. God is able to manifest His presence among us anyway He wants. It doesn't not mean Yeshua is another God. He is the Lord. This is not a contradiction.
Rom. 5:6 ¶ For while we were still helpless, bat the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom. 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom. 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom. 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified 1aby His blood, we shall be saved bfrom the wrath of God through Him.
Rom. 5:10 For if while we were aenemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved 1bby His life.
Rom. 5:11 aAnd not only this, 1but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received bthe reconciliation.
Rom. 5:12 ¶ Therefore, just as through aone man sin entered into the world, and bdeath through sin, and cso death spread to all men, because all sinned —
Rom. 5:13 for 1until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned ain the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a 1btype of Him who was to come.
Rom. 5:15 ¶ But 1the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of athe one bthe many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by cthe grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom. 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand athe judgment arose from one transgression 1resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions 2resulting in justification.
Rom. 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned athrough the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will breign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom. 5:18 ¶ So then as through aone transgression 1there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one bact of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom. 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience athe many bwere made sinners, even so through cthe obedience of the One athe many will be made righteous.
Rom. 5:20 1The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom. 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now don't be "stiff-necked" like our forefathers, Len, but speak to the Rock. The Rock is Yeshua. He was there in the desert with Moses, cost Moses entry to the Promised Land that He didn't intercede and teach Israel to talk to the Rock. Instead Moses the great leader that he was, did not act as an intercessor and lost his temper with Israel.
1Cor. 10:1 ¶ For aI do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all bunder the cloud and all passed through the sea;
1Cor. 10:2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Cor. 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
1Cor. 10:5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for athey were laid low in the wilderness.
1Cor. 10:6 ¶ Now these things happened as aexamples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as bthey also craved.
1Cor. 10:7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “bTHE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO cPLAY.”
1Cor. 10:8 Nor let us act immorally, as asome of them 1did, and btwenty-three thousand fell in one day.
1Cor. 10:9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
1Cor. 10:10 Nor grumble, as some of them 1did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
1Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and bthey were written for our instruction, upon whom cthe ends of the ages have come.
These things happened for our instruction upon who has come the End of the Age...There is a generation that died in the Wilderness and did not enter the Promised Land. I do not intend to be among those who do not enter..
Rav Shaul was an amazing theologian, but sometimes, as Peter said in his letter, "he says things that are hard to understand".
Shalom,
Joyce
JOYCE
Sorry Kiddo, but you seem about as programmed as any cult member I've run across. You have time to write these long messages but you decide ....
"I have had a name change from being "a goy" to Israel. There is more to my life story which I don't feel free to share here for a variety of reasons, but I have encountered the Living God."
Your story still doesn't make sense, yet you base your whole set of programmed messages on something you can't verify for others.
I skim what you write. I wonder if anyone besides Len takes the time to read your repetitive postings. Maybe you should be glad he is here so that you get some kind of audience. You obviously want to divert this blog from research on the New Age movement to the story of Joyce's beliefs.
You really aren't up to countering Len's research, so you constantly repeat your same set of beliefs, foot after foot, after foot.
I understand you. I also understand I have no responsibility to read anything you write, and I like it that way.
Dorothy
Dorothy, Dorothy, Dorothy,
One thing that I like about you is that you're predictable..
May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, bless you in His Son, Yeshua,
Joyce
12/15/2008
Dear Joyce,
You keep saying that the ancient Israelites were not Jews but that does not make you right. Sure, Judaism was not called as such till after the demise of the northern kingdom, but that did not change the practice. Nor did elimination of sacrifice or redaction of the Talmud affect our obeying of the Torah’s commandments. Elimination of sacrifice in absence of the Temple was following the Torah exactly. The Talmud simply explained ambiguities in the written law. You are beating a dead horse: I don’t know why.
Joyce wrote that “the rabbis will try to say [Ruth] converted to Judaism, but that's a stretch because Judaism did not exist at that time. She did however attach herself to God, and to His people.”
Ruth is also the paradigm for the present conversion process. As she was rejected three times but persisted, so are current candidates similarly turned away three times. The Gematria, numerology, of Ruth’s name is 607. Resh = 200, Vav = 7 and Tav = 400. If you add 607 to the original number of commandments she was bound by as a Noahite, seven, you get 613; the number incumbent on Jews. We read the Book of Ruth publicly in the synagogue each year on Shavuot; the anniversary of the Revelation at Sinai.
in the Code of Jewish law, the amount of material on Shavuot is minimal; less than that for any other major holy day. This is because, of all the festivals, Shavuot is unique in that it lacks a particular ritual symbol. Pesach has matzo, Succoth the succah as well as the etrog and lulav. Rosh Hashanah has the shofar (ram's horn), and Yom Kippur is associated with fasting. The nature of, and treatment, of these symbols occupies much of the festivals. All these holy days we observe are the same ones given Moses; none of which ae observed by Christians.
For Shavuot, however, the symbol is the Torah itself. "Incorporation of an alternative symbol might have conveyed the impression that it was the way to honor the Torah, whereas the Torah should be studied and applied to peoples' daily lives throughout the year. It should be applied in the home and in the workplace as much as in the synagogue. Accordingly, the tradition decided not to cloud Shavuot with a holiday-specific symbol so as to focus on the centrality of Torah. It is Torah, not ethnicity, which has enabled Jews to survive as a people for thousands of years. Without Torah Jews would not be a people and Judaism not a religion."
We mark the seven-times-seven intervening days by formally counting each one, in accordance with Lev. 23:15, much as one does when anticipating an exciting event. As the event approaches the excitement intensifies to the point that sleep becomes impossible the night before. The Torah was given in a no-man’s land, the desert of Sinai, rather than in the promised land. The Jewish Sages reasoned that the purpose was to emphasize that the Torah did not belong to Jews alone but is available for all people. A world that is a desert, with respect to law, can be transformed into a garden of harmony among peoples by following the Guide of guides of human relationships.
In the same vein, the story of Moses’ father in law, Jethro, and the Book of Ruth, both of which are traditionally read on Shavuot, emphasize universal themes. Jethro and Ruth were not born Jews. Both, however, came to worship the God of Israel, who is also the God of all humanity. According to the Bible, the Messiah will be descended from Ruth, the convert, who was the great grandmother of King David.
The last verse of the Tanakh (in 2Chronicles) features King Cyrus, also a non Jew. “Thus said King Cyrus of Persia: The Lord God of Heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and has charged me with building Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Any one of you of all His people, the Lord his God be with him and let him go up (2Chron. 36:23).” When the non-Jewish king, Cyrus, proclaims God as the God of Heaven and of earth, the Scriptures may come to their proper conclusion. ... That recognition marks the dawn of the day when the Lord of Israel will in fact be the One God of the entire world, as recited for generations in the Sh’ma.
Joyce wrote that Ephraim, --- is only a grandson, but was elevated to level of son through adoption
Ephraim was not adopted but was Joseph’s son (the younger) along with Manasseh. The two got portions equal to each of Jacob’s other sons so Joseph in effect received a double portion. Why do you bring this up-?
Joyce also speculated: “I believe in order for Israel to become the "bride" that it was meant to be the spouse had to die.i.e Yeshua. God could not marry Israel who had violated the marriage contract of Torah”
Nonsense; and without a semblance of foundation like everything else you say about Jesus. God through Isaiah give the lie to this in Ch. 54:
Is. 54: 4 Fear not, for you shall not be ashamed, and be not embarrassed for you shall not be put to shame, for the shame of your youth you shall forget, and the disgrace of your widowhood you shall no longer remember. 5 For your Master is your Maker, the Lord of Hosts is His name, and your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, shall be called the God of all the earth. 6 For, like a wife who is deserted and distressed in spirit has the Lord called you, and a wife of one's youth who was rejected, said your God. 7 "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you. 8 With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord. 9 "For this is to Me [as] the waters of Noah, as I swore that the waters of Noah shall never again pass over the earth, so have I sworn neither to be wroth with you nor to rebuke you. 10 For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.
Joych asserted falsely that “Yeshua cleansed the sins of His people once and for all.”
It is the Father alone who cleanses the sins of His people and any other deserving person.
Ps. 130: 3 O God, if You keep [a record of] iniquities, O Lord, who will stand? 4 For forgiveness is with You, in order that You be feared. 5 I hoped, O Lord; yea, my soul hoped, and I wait for His word. 6 My soul is to the Lord among those who await the morning, those who await the morning. 7 Israel, hope to the Lord, for kindness is with the Lord and much redemption is with Him. 8 And He will redeem Israel from all their iniquities.
Joyce continued: “It's very interesting that the nations have believed in Yeshua, another words they recognize Him as Messiah, but the Jews don't”
That again reminds me of Deut. 4: 19 And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them. 20 But the Lord took you (Israel) and brought you out of the iron crucible, out of Egypt, to be a people of His possession, as of this day.
Everyone has a peace plan today, but there is only one peace plan, and that is Yeshua. --- You love Torah and so do I.
God said otherwise through Isaiah. We may both love Torah but you don’t love the Torah I know. Your “Torah” is Jesus.
For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter, says the Lord, Who has compassion on you. (Is. 54:10)
Joyce said, yet again: “We have never kept Torah...We can't keep Torah perfectly.”
And I need to answer once more, “Tat is why God created repentance.” Ezekiel told you but you will not listen:
Ezek. 18: 29 And yet the house of Israel say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Is it My ways that are not right, O house of Israel? Is it not rather your ways that are not right? 30 Therefore, every man according to his ways I will judge you, O house of Israel, says the Lord God: repent and cause others to repent of all your transgressions, and it will not be a stumbling block of iniquity for you. 31 Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions whereby you have transgressed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit, and why should you die, O house of Israel! 32 For I do not desire the death of him who dies, says the Lord God: so repent and live!"
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/15/2004
Dear Joyce,
I know I speak for Dorothy also in asking you to please avoid praying for us in Jesus' name.
We don't need or want that.
Peace and blessing from the one and only true God,
Len
12/15/2008
Dear Joyce,
The great Christian historian Paul Johnson, in his "History of the Jews," writing of the original schism between the apostles and
Jews said:
"What [Jews] could not accept was the removal of the absolute distinction they had always drawn between God and man, because that was the essence of Jewish theology, the belief that above all others separated them from the pagans. By removing that distinction, the Christians took themselves irrevocably out of the Jewish faith.
"Moreover, they did so in a way that made antagonism ... inevitable, irreconcilable and bitter. The Jews could not concede the divinity of Jesus as God-made-man without repudiating the central tenet of their belief. The Christians could not concede that Jesus was anything less than God without repudiating the essence and purpose of their movement. If [Jesus] was not God, Christianity was nothing. If [Jesus] was God then Judaism was false. Their could be absolutely no compromise ... Each faith was thus a threat to the other.
The quarrel was all the more bitter because ... the two faiths agreed on virtually everything else. The Christians took from Judaism the Pentateuch, the prophets and the wisdom books, ... the liturgy, for even the eucharist had Jewish roots, the notion of the Sabbath day and feast days, incense and burning lamps, psalms, hymns and choral music, vestments and prayers, priests and martyrs, the reading of the sacred books and the institution of the synagogue. ... There was nothing in the early church, other than its Christology, that was not adumbrated in Judaism. (Pg 144-5)."
From our way of looking at it, you borrowed everything but the most important Thing, as given in the first two commandments.
Peace and blessing,
Len
LEN
In this case I ask you not to speak for me. While Christians and I have different views of the place of Jesus Christ in history, I am not taking it on myself to judge Christians or Christianity. That is in God's hands. The world is not waiting for me to do this.
What Joyce chooses to pray for is in her head. That is what she has faith in. I cannot tell her what to have faith in. What God who hears all chooses to do with her prayers is not up to me. What Jews choose to pray for for is a result of their faith. Nobody should tell Jews what they can pray for.
Joyce brought the discussion with you to these threads by posting assumptions about Judaism that were not factually true. You have presented factual material which she chooses to ignore, but it has been good that other have had the opportunity to learn more about Judaism.
Thank you for that.
Before you spend much more time posting, it might be good to know how many are taking the time to go back here as many new threads have been started since your discussion with her began.
Dorothy
Len,
I disagree with you that all Israel are Jews based on Scripture. You are using current practice to prove that and that proves nothing. The Bible never calls the Northern Kingdom "Jews" only Israelites. This has confused the issue for many centuries. Judah needs to ackwowledge that Israel is in the nations, and never practiced Judaism. They didn't even follow Torah at a certain point, which is why they ended up in the nations, so what you are saying is not logical.
God sovereignly allowed Ephraim to go into exile and lose his identity and it will be for all of Israel's salvation..including the Jews. The Jews need to recognize that their brother Ephraim is a separate kingdom. The two have never reunited..but will one day soon. As long as Judah's eyes are closed on this issue and the issue of Yeshua, they will not see redemption.
The fact that the Jews have preserved the Torah is a good thing. The fact that they have changed Torah into Tamudic Judaism is not. As Yeshua said, they put the traditions of man above the commandments of God..
Ephraim was adopted according to Torah. Read Israel's words;
Gen. 48:5 “Now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as bReuben and Simeon are.
It's more than just giving Ephraim the double portion. He said "their mine" and Ruben lost his right of first-born as did Simeon and Levy, who were scattered in the tribes of Israel. Ruben slept with his father's concubine.
As for praying in the name of Yeshua, that's whose name I pray in and I don't mean to offend you but I am not going to stop praying in Yeshua's name for you or anyone else.
Dorothy,
As for your comments that I haven't answered Len's questions, I have responded to as much of it as I care to or need to. I could write you a list of the prophecies from Tanakh that Yeshua has fulfilled and rabbis quotes that concur with this...but as I have said before it's a question of spiritual "seeing" and for you to have your eyes open, it will take an act of the Ruach HaKodesh, so I prefer at this point to pray.. in Yeshua's name.
I would just give one word of advice to both of you. Don't harden your hearts...our people have done that for centuries because of historical events. I do actually understand this, but I know that this is the worst thing for the Jewish people. To harden their hearts to Yeshua is to cut off the source of their own salvation. Don't confuse historic Christianity with faith in the Jewish Messiah. These are two different things. I will continue praying for you both..and I pray to the Father, in Yeshua's name because He is the one who gives me access to the throne.
Joyce
JOYCE
I'm seeing that you are not a Christian or a Jew, just someone who is very stubborn who has come upon a newly created religion that allows you to pretend you are not excluded from either community. There are many different belief systems in the world and all of them have believers who are as sure of their systems as you are of yours.
I'm also seeing that rather than dealing logically with the information provided to you, you are using the tactic spoken about by Nietzsche which pits will vs will, and you are bound and determined to be the winner.
The more you write the less I would ever consider becoming a member of a group that encourages your manner of belief. It offers nothing but contempt for those who do not believe as you do.
Dorothy
12/16/2008
Joyce disagrees with me “that all Israel are Jews based on Scripture.” She says that I am “using current practice to prove that and that proves nothing. The Bible never calls the Northern Kingdom "Jews" only Israelites. This has confused the issue for many centuries. Judah needs to ackwowledge that Israel is in the nations, and never practiced Judaism. They didn't even follow Torah at a certain point, which is why they ended up in the nations, so what you are saying is not logical.”
With all due respect, Joyce, your objections are completely irrelevant and off base. That is like saying the signers of the constitution were never Americans because they practiced “Thirteen-Statism” or “colonialism.” Time moves on and things change but the Jews today are essentially the Israelites of yesterday. We have the same Torah and Tanakh, the same prophets, the same Ten Commandments, the same 613 commanments with the proviso that in the absence of the Temple those related commandments are in suspension. When the Temple is rebuilt, those suspended laws will become reactivated. We follow the food laws, the ethical laws, and all the other laws you can name. We observe all the biblical holy days and use the biblical calendar.
Take off your blinders, Joyce. Having discarded the family jewels you are saying that they were only glass imitations all the time. Those jewels are still genuine and, what’s more, they are available to anyone who wants to rejoin or join the family.
Joyce said “that the Jews have preserved the Torah is a good thing. The fact that they have changed Torah into Tamudic Judaism is not.” What you cannot seem to get into your thick skull is that Talmudic Judaism and Torah Judaism are one and the same. The former merely explains and codifies the latter. Would you condemn US law as being “Supreme-Court” law and no longer constitutional law?” Would you visit a doctor for treatment when he learned his practice from textbooks and never worked in a hospital or clinic?
It is the messianics who use man-made laws instead of Torah laws. One messianic “rabbi” has his fringe strings attached to his belt. But the Torah says they must be attached to a four-cornered garment. The Torah says that matza on Passover is a reminder of the Exodus but messianics reinterpret it to be a reminder of Jesus’ body (and wine of his blood). And you have the nerve to accuse JEWS of substituting man-made laws for Torah ones???
The Torah says that the food laws are crucial but Jesus said that what comes out of your mouth is more important than what goes in. (For Judaism BOTH are important). The Torah says to honor parents but Jesus told his followers to reject their parents and follow him. The Torah says to not reap on the Sabbath but Jesus says it is OK for people to pick fruit off trees if they are so moved. The Torah says that, if you repent your sin will be forgiven but messianics say that only Jesus can forgive. So who follows Torah law; Jews or Christians?
Joyce insists that “Ephraim was adopted according to --- Gen. 48:5 “Now your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as bReuben and Simeon are.”
That did not constitute an adoption because Joseph did not stop being their father. It was merely Jacob’s manner of granting them a double portion of his estate and making them co-equal tribes with Jacob’s other sons. What Jacob did was to give Joseph the double share that would have normally been given to Reuben.
Gen. 48: 21 And Israel said to Joseph, "Behold, I am going to die, and God will be with you, and He will return you to the land of your forefathers. 22 And I have given you one portion over your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow."
Ezek. 47:13 So said the Lord God: This is the border whereby you shall divide the land for inheritance to the twelve tribes of Israel, Joseph [taking two] portions. 14 And you shall inherit it, one as another, being that I lifted up My hand to give it to your forefathers, and this land shall be to you an inheritance.
Joyce said “As for praying in the name of Yeshua, that's whose name I pray in and I don't mean to offend you but I am not going to stop praying in Yeshua's name for you or anyone else. “
You can pray in the name of whomever you wish but, under these circumstances, I would be offended it you pray for me. Dorothy made clear that I cannot speak for her.
Joyce claims to have a list of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled but I presented a more important list of those he failed to full and where exactly the opposite of the prophecies occurred. Here they are again:
** Instead of the Temple being rebuilt a la Ezekiel it was destroyed.
"And I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their God and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." -- Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)
** Instead of the Jews returning to the land they were dispersed.
“He will display a signal to the nations, assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the Four Corners of the earth. (IS. 11:12)
**Instead of everyone recognizing and internalizing the eternal Torah, Jesus believers call it the "Old" Testament.
“Such is the covenant I make with the House of Israel after these days [periods of disaster in Jewish history, when Israel was sinful and God was hidden] declares the Lord. I will put My Teaching into their inmost being and inscribe it upon their hearts. Then I shall be their God and they shall be My people. No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, ’Heed the Lord,’ for all of them from the least to the greatest shall heed Me, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more. (Jer. 31:33, 34).
** Instead of peace and justice we have had continual war and injustice.
"And he [the Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." -- Isaiah 2:4
** Instead of everyone recognizing the One God with One Name we have a plethora of false gods, Jesus being just one of them.
"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, with one Name." -- Zechariah 14:9
Joyce wrote: “Don't confuse historic Christianity with faith in the Jewish Messiah.“ You are the one confusing Christianity with Judaism; not I. The famous English Benjamin Disraeli who converted to Christianity was asked by the Queen what he was. He replied: “I am the blank page between the Old and the New Testaments.”
Peace and blessing,
Len
Dear Len and Dorothy,
You are both mistaken. I didn't invent any new anything ...There are thousands today who agree with me, and the numbers growing daily.
The early believers in Yeshua saw themselves as Jews and so do people like myself. Dorothy, when I showed you the Scriptures that indicate that you responded by saying you don't read my posts, so either you do or you don't. If you don't you don't have the right to critique them. If you do, you will see that the book of Acts plainly says myriads of Jews put their faith in Yeshua and were zealous for Torah. It never called them "Christians" nor did they consider themselves Christians. I have not "created" a new religion.
From Abraham on all the great men of faith looked forward to Yeshua's coming and now the great people of faith look back...
Len has not said anything new that Judaism hasn't said before.. I have a long list of quotes from rabbis who affirm the statements and Scriptures that I and Leana quoted from are about Messiah including Isaiah 53...so am I stubborn..?? I guess if you call stubborn if you want, but I think you are the one who is stubborn because you are holding on to religion which is a substitute for a relationship with the Living God. That and two dollars may get you on a NYC subway, but it will not gain you entrance to the Kingdom of God.
You must have your sins atoned for by the blood of Messiah and then you will be able to see, until then I am sad to say with all of your intellect you will be like some of the First Century religious leaders who rejected the Messiah when He came and dwelled among them...Do not envy them, nor do I envy you.
Your so afraid that belief in Yeshua changes your Jewish identity. If you are a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the House of Judah, it's not the belief in the Jewish Messiah that changes your identity. That's the lie that's been passed down for generations by some of your rabbis. We'll guess what, the ones that stoned the prophets were wrong and so are the rabbis. I pray that Messiah will open their eyes...
The centuries of persecution to Jews in Jesus name make you hate anything to do with Yeshua. Yeshua never told any Church to persecute Jews.. Don't blame Him for that.
And I pray for all the Jewish people, especially you Len and Dorothy in Yeshua's Name,
Joyce
12/16/2008
Joyce insists she is not a Christian.
Chris·tian (krschn)
adj.
1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.
12/16/2008
Joyce wrote: “I think you are the one who is stubborn because you are holding on to religion which is a substitute for a relationship with the Living God. That and two dollars may get you on a NYC subway, but it will not gain you entrance to the Kingdom of God.”
What does the Tanakh say about Who the Living God is?
Deut. 5: 23 For who is there of all flesh, who heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? 24 You approach, and hear all that the Lord, our God, will say, and you speak to us all that the Lord, our God, will speak to you, and we will hear and do. 25 And the Lord heard the sound of your words when you spoke to me, and the Lord said to me, "I have heard the sound of the words of this people that they have spoken to you; they have done well in all that they have spoken. 26 Would that their hearts be like this, to fear Me and to keep all My commandments all the days, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! 27 Go say to them, 'Return to your tents.' 28 But as for you, stand here with Me, and I will speak to you all the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances which you will teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess. 29 Keep them to perform [them] as the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside either to the right or to the left. 30 In all the way which the Lord, your God, has commanded you, you shall go, in order that you may live and that it may be well with you, and so that you may prolong your days in the land you will possess.
Jer. 10: 10 But the Lord God is true; He is a living God and the King of the world; from His anger the earth quakes, and the nations cannot contain His fury. 11 So shall you say to them, "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth, shall perish from the earth and from beneath these heavens.
Now who do you think Jeremiah was talking about in Vs. 11? And in the next verse Jeremiah could havre been talking top you, Joyce:
Jer. 23: 36 And --- you pervert the words of the living God, the Lord of Hosts, our God
Hos. 2: 1 And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which shall neither be measured nor counted; and it shall come to pass that, instead of saying to them, "You are not My people," it shall be said to them, "The children of the living God."
Dan. 6: 27 From before me an order is issued that in the entire dominion of my kingdom, [everyone] should quake and be awestricken before the God of Daniel, for He is a living God, He exists forever, and His kingdom will not be destroyed, nor will His dominion until the end.
Joyce, you are trying to destroy the kingdom of Daniel’s living God, Who is also my living God, and substitute the kingdom of another god who is dead. As David wrote:
Psalm 115: 2 Why should the nations say, "Where is your God now?" 3 But our God is in heaven; whatever He wishes, He does. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, the handiwork of man. 5 They have a mouth but they do not speak; they have eyes but they do not see. 6 They have ears but they do not hear; they have a nose but they do not smell. 7 Their hands-but they do not feel; their feet-but they do not walk; they do not murmur with their throat. 8 Like them shall be those who make them, all who trust in them. 9 Israel, trust in the Lord; He is their help and their shield. 10 House of Aaron, trust in the Lord; He is their help and their shield. 11 Those who fear the Lord, trust in the Lord; He is their help and their shield. 12 The Lord, Who remembered us, will bless; He will bless the house of Israel; He will bless the house of Aaron. 13 He will bless those who fear the Lord, the small together with the great. (Also Ps. 135:
Psalm 147: 19 He tells His words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He did not do so to any nation, and they did not know the judgments. Hallelujah!
Joyce further restates her mantra: “You must have your sins atoned for by the blood of Messiah” although such a requirement is nowhere in the Tanakh. On the contrary, as Ezekiel said, and I repeat:
Ezek. 18: 30 --- repent and cause others to repent of all your transgressions, and it will not be a stumbling block of iniquity for you. 31 Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions whereby you have transgressed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit, and why should you die, O house of Israel! 32 For I do not desire the death of him who dies, says the Lord God: so repent and live!"
So Joyce is calling the Prophet a liar.
Blood will not save you so let me repeat Ezekiel’s advice to you Joyce: “repent and live!"
Peace and blessing,
Len
JOYCE
When you deliberately lie in one place, which you did when you stated,
"The centuries of persecution to Jews in Jesus name make you hate anything to do with Yeshua. Yeshua never told any Church to persecute Jews.. Don't blame Him for that", it is obvious to me you are not to be trusted in anything you say.
As I said, your character which has been influenced by your messianic beliefs, is not one I would care to emulate under any circumstances.
I don't hate you either. I feel pity for you that you feel the need to pressure those who disagree with you in any way. That is a classic sign of your own insecurity.
As for the individual Jesus, what I know about him from the book makes his in my eyes an interesting individual, but no more important than any other philosopher in history. If you or others want to love him for your own reasons, it's none of my business.
LEN
You continue to speak logically to someone who is emotionally involved with the individual Christians have idealized. It provides much emotional comfort to many who need such a support system. They do not realize that not everyone loves whoever they love.
Christians who take their religion seriously and don't use it as a club to beat others on the head with, have developed a good system of morals based on extending that feeling of love. It may not be logical, but it works for a lot of people.
Dorothy
Len and Dorothy,
You agree with each other, so what can I say.
I'm not at all insecure about what I believe and I don't believe I will convince you, but the Ruach HaKodesh will. If you want to wait to bend your knee to Yeshua, if you think your own righteousness is adequate to enter the kingdom, then what can I say? Go ahead and wait...but I don't think your making a wise decision.
As for the whole argument who is a Jew...
http://www.hopeinmessiah.org/believersstilljewish.htm
I guess this guy is meshuganah too with 19 generations of rabbis in his family !
http://www.hopeinmessiah.org/index.htm
In the end, we will see who is right..
In the meantime, I bless you in Yeshua's name, the only name in heaven and on the earth in which men can be saved..
Joyce
Oh just a few words from Torah about Yeshua's name:
Gen. 49:18 “aFor Your salvation I wait, O LORD.
3444. hDo…wv◊y yeshuah [447b]; from 3467; salvation:—deeds of deliverance(1), deliverance(6), help(m)(4), prosperity(m)(1), salvation(61), save(1), saving(1), security(1), victories(m)(1), victory(m)(1).
Now for some more quotes from Tanakh:
But Moses said to the people, “aDo not fear! 1Stand by and see bthe YESHUAH of the LORD which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever.
Ex. 15:2 “1aThe LORD is my strength and song,
And He has become my YESHUAH
Deut. 32:15 ¶ “aBut 1Jeshurun grew fat and kicked — (Jeshurun is a reference to Israel)
You are grown fat, thick, and sleek —
bThen he forsook God cwho made him,
And scorned dthe Rock of his YESHUAH
1 Sam 2:1b My mouth speaks boldly against my enemies, Because I rejoice in Your YESHUAH.
1Chr. 16:23 aSing to the LORD, all the earth;
Proclaim good tidings of His YESHUAH from day to day.
2Chr. 20:17 ‘You need not fight in this battle; station yourselves, astand and see the YESHUAH of the LORD on your behalf, O Judah and Jerusalem.’ Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out to face them, bfor the LORD is with you.”
Job 13:16 “This also will be my YESHUAH,
For a godless man may not come before His presence.
Psa. 3:8 1YESHUAH belongs to the LORD;
Your blessing be upon Your people!
Psa. 9:14 That I may tell of aall Your praises,
That in the gates of the daughter of Zion
I may rejoice in Your YESHUAH
Psa. 13:5 ¶ But I have trusted in Your lovingkindness; My heart shall brejoice in Your YESHUAH
Psa. 14:7 ¶ Oh, that the YESHUAH of Israel 1would come out of Zion! When the LORD 2brestores His captive people, Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad
Psa. 21:1 ¶ O LORD, in Your strength the king will abe glad, And in Your YESHUAH how greatly he will rejoice!
Psa. 21:5 His aglory is great through Your YESHUAH, Splendor and majesty You place upon him.
Psa. 35:3 Draw also the spear and 1the battle-axe to meet those who pursue me;
Say to my soul, “I am your YESHUAH.”
Psa. 35:9 ¶ And my soul shall arejoice in the LORD;
It shall bexult in His YESHUAH.
Psa. 53:6 Oh, that athe YESHUAH of Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores His captive people, Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.
Psa. 62:1 ¶ aMy soul waits in silence for God only;
From Him is my YESHUAH
Psa. 62:2 He only is my arock and my YESHUAH,
My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.
Psa. 62:6 He only is amy rock and my YESHUAH,
Psa. 67:2 That aYour way may be known on the earth, Your YESHUAH among all nations.
Psa. 68:19 ¶ Blessed be the Lord, who daily abears our burden, The God who is our YESHUAH. Selah.
Psa. 69:29 ¶ But I am aafflicted and in pain;
1May Your YESHUAH, O God, bset me securely on high.
Psa. 70:4 ¶ Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; And let those who love Your YESHUAH say continually, “Let God be magnified.”
_________________________________________________
Psa. 78:22 Because they did not believe in God
And did not trust in His YESHUAH.
_________________________________________________
Psa. 88:1 ¶ O LORD, the God of my YESHUAH,
I have cried out by day and in the night before You.
Psa. 89:26 “He will cry to Me, ‘You are my Father,
My God, and the brock of my YESHUAH.’
Psa. 91:16 “With 1a along life I will satisfy him
And 2blet him see My YESHUAH”
96:2 Sing to the LORD, bless His name;
Proclaim good tidings of His YESHUAH from day to day.
Psa. 98:2 aThe LORD has made known His YESHUAH ;
He has brevealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations.
Psa. 98:3 He has aremembered His lovingkindness and His faithfulness to the house of Israel;
All the ends of the earth have seen the YESHUAH of our God.
Psa. 106:4 ¶ Remember me, O LORD, in Your afavor 1toward Your people;
Visit me with Your YESHUAH,
Psa. 116:13 I shall lift up the cup of YESHUAH
And call upon the name of the LORD.
Psa. 118:14 1aThe LORD is my strength and song,
And He has become bmy YESHUAH
Psa. 118:15 ¶ The sound of ajoyful shouting and YESHUAH is in the tents of the righteous;
The bright hand of the LORD does valiantly.
Psa. 118:21 I shall give thanks to You, for You have aanswered me,
And You have bbecome my YESHUAH.
Psa. 119:123 My aeyes fail with longing for Your YESHUAH
And for Your righteous 1word.
Psa. 119:155 YESHUAH is far from the wicked,
For they do not seek Your statutes.
Psa. 119:166 I ahope for Your YESHUAH, O LORD,
And do Your commandments.
Psa. 119:174 I along for Your YESHUAH, O LORD,
Psa. 140:7 “O 1GOD the Lord, athe strength of my YESHUAH, You have covered my head in the day of 2battle.
Psa. 149:4 For the LORD atakes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the afflicted ones with YESHUAH.
And now from Isaiah:
Is. 12:2 “Behold, aGod is my YESHUAH,
I will btrust and not be afraid;
For cthe LORD GOD is my strength and song,
And He has become my YESHUAH.”
Is. 12:3 Therefore you will joyously adraw water
From the bsprings of YESHUAH...( Yes, Yeshua is the Living Water)
Is. 25:9 And it will be said in that day,
“Behold, athis is our God for whom we have bwaited that cHe might save us.
This is the LORD for whom we have waited;
dLet us rejoice and be glad in His salvation.”
Is. 33:2 O LORD, be gracious to us; we have waited for You.
Be their strength every morning,
Our YESHUAH also in the dtime of distress.
Is. 33:6 And He will be the stability of your times,
A wealth of YESHUAH wisdom and knowledge;
The fear of the LORD is his treasure.
Is. 49:6 He says, “It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My YESHUAH may reach to the end of the earth.”
( It is Yeshua, the light of the world who will restore Israel)
Is. 49:8 ¶ Thus says the LORD,
“In a favorable time I have answered You,
And in a day of YESHUAH I have helped You;
And I will keep You and give You for a covenant of the people,
To restore the land, to make them inherit the desolate heritages;
Is. 51:5 “My arighteousness is near, My YESHUAH has gone forth,
And My barms will judge the peoples;
The ccoastlands will wait for Me,
And for My darm they will wait expectantly.
Is. 51:6 “aLift up your eyes to the sky,
Then look to the earth beneath;
For the bsky will vanish like smoke,
And the bearth will wear out like a garment
And its inhabitants will die 1in like manner;
But My YESHUAH will be forever,
And My righteousness will not 2wane.
Is. 51:8 “For the amoth will eat them like a garment,
And the bgrub will eat them like wool.
But My crighteousness will be forever,
And My YESHUAH to all generations.”
Is. 52:7 ¶ How lovely on the mountains
Are the feet of him who brings agood news,
Who announces 1peace
And brings good news of 2happiness,
Who announces YESHUAH
And says to Zion, “Your God 3reigns!”
Is. 52:10 The LORD has bared His holy arm
In the sight of all the nations,
That ball the ends of the earth may see
The YESHUAH of our God.
s. 56:1 ¶ Thus says the LORD,
“Preserve justice and do righteousness,
For My YESHUAH is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.
Is. 59:11 All of us growl like bears,
And amoan sadly like doves;
We hope for bjustice, but there is none,
For YESHUAH, but it is far from us.
Is. 59:17 He put on arighteousness like a breastplate,
And a helmet of YESUAH on His head;
And He put on garments of vengeance for clothing And wrapped Himself with zeal as a mantle.
Is. 60:18 “Violence will not be heard again in your land, Nor devastation or destruction within your borders; But you will call your walls YESHUAH, and your gates praise.
Is. 62:1 ¶ For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep quiet,
Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, And her YESHUAH like a torch that is burning.
and there are numerous other passages in Tanakh and in the Apostles writings:
I'll just attach one:
Rev. 19:1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of a great multitude in the heaven, saying, ‘Alleluia! the YESHUAH, and the glory, and the honour, and the power, [is] to the Lord our God;
YESHUAH IS the LORD GOD..
God is salvation and Yeshua is God.
If you don't see it, it's because you refuse to hear God's voice. It is all over Tanakh....Yeshua is who He claims to be. He proclaimed this during Hanukah:
John 10:22 ¶ At that time the Feast of the Dedication ( Chanukah) took place at Jerusalem;
John 10:23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
John 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long 1will You keep us in suspense? If You are 2the Christ, tell us plainly.”
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep ahear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 “1My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
You are not Yeshua's sheep, but after reading all that God says about Yeshua in the Tanakh, it would be good if you could hear His voice.. His sheep have eternal life and salvation..Yeshua is echad with His Father.. Yes, I am very, very stubborn..
I WILL: " Sing to the LORD, all the earth; Proclaim good tidings of His YESHUAH from day to day."
Happy Chanukah!!
Joyce
p.s Len, in case you are still reading. Yeshua's comment about "it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles you....etc." is in the context of hand washing. He's not talking about the biblical dietary laws. As for picking food on the Shabbat...even Jews recognize that the value of human life super-cedes everything else. For the same reason doctors work on Shabbat.
Anytime Yeshua was accused by the Pharisees of "breaking the Shabbat" He was either healing something or not chastising the disciples for picking food. He was Lord of the Shabbat and said
Shabbat is made for man not the reverse.
This is a discussion about halakah, not whether Yeshua broke Shabbat. It was impossible for Him since He was the Creator of it.
I just want to post your quote here. Len said:
"What you cannot seem to get into your thick skull is that Talmudic Judaism and Torah Judaism are one and the same. The former merely explains and codifies the latter."
What I say to this is rubbish. That's what the rabbis have said.. Why then does it say, Rabbi X says this but Rabbi Y says that? If you were to say that Talmud is a commentary, I could live with that..but to put it up at the save level as the revealed Word of God is just rubbish. To compare Rabbi Y and Z with the revelation of Torah to Moses up on Mt Sinai...I don't think so.. At best, it's commentary, at worst it distorts the revelation of God to Moses which is all about Yeshua.
Look what Yeshua says..but of course you'll argue with Him, I'm sure:
John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
No, I'm not the "thick-skulled" one Len...I will listen to truth when it's presented to me... Will you?
b'shem Yeshua,
Joyce
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