Tuesday, July 21, 2009



Constance Cumbey said...

We will be discussing the Harry Potter phenomenon. After I inserted and rearranged the page, it would not allow me to insert text, so I am doing it this way. The program is particularly relevant now that the Harry Potter forces are back on the prowl, all too successfully claiming our children's souls.


Digital Hero 7 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Maybe she can try to explain how J.K. Rowling is some how to be considered a christian in light of her publications -

Walt said...

Sent a youtube site to you on last thread 2:11pm. I missed this new one that you started and I would like you to see vidieo from Arab Festival in Dearborn-June 2009.
Thank-you for viewing.


Anonymous said...


Just a reminder that these are Pope Benedict XVI's clear views on Harry Potter:

In a letter dated March 7, 2003, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (before he was elected Pope Benedict XVI in 2005) thanked Kuby for her "instructive" book Harry Potter - gut oder böse (Harry Potter- good or evil?), in which Kuby says the Potter books corrupt the hearts of the young, preventing them from developing a properly ordered sense of good and evil, thus harming their relationship with God while that relationship is still in its infancy.

"It is good, that you enlighten people about Harry Potter, because those are subtle seductions, which act unnoticed and by this deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly," wrote Cardinal Ratzinger.

There was much confusion about whether "the Vatican" had given its stamp of approval on the latest Harry Potter movie . . . until Kevin P. Donovan's ended his recent article in the Christian Post Reporter with this final closing paragraph:

"While L'Osservatore is available on the Vatican’s website, the articles it contains do not always reflect the Catholic Church’s position. Vatican officials say articles in the newspaper present the personal opinion of the author."

Constance Cumbey said...

Well, if Rowlings is a "Christian," she is definitely one of the "emergent church" variety and not anything I presently recognize. She's even far out by gnostic standards as I understand them -- bad enough in and of themselves.


Anonymous said...

PLEASE, could you archive your shows?

Pretty please?


Constance Cumbey said...

To anonymous 4 p.m.

Just a reminder that these are Pope Benedict XVI's clear views on Harry Potter:

In a letter dated March 7, 2003, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (before he was elected Pope Benedict XVI in 2005) thanked Kuby for her "instructive" book Harry Potter - gut oder böse (Harry Potter- good or evil?), in which Kuby says the Potter books corrupt the hearts of the young, preventing them from developing a properly ordered sense of good and evil, thus harming their relationship with God while that relationship is still in its infancy.

"It is good, that you enlighten people about Harry Potter, because those are subtle seductions, which act unnoticed and by this deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly," wrote Cardinal Ratzinger.

There was much confusion about whether "the Vatican" had given its stamp of approval on the latest Harry Potter movie . . . until Kevin P. Donovan's ended his recent article in the Christian Post Reporter with this final closing paragraph:

"While L'Osservatore is available on the Vatican’s website, the articles it contains do not always reflect the Catholic Church’s position. Vatican officials say articles in the newspaper present the personal opinion of the author."

Those were the Pope's views as I always understood them. The L'Osservatore Romana article has caused much confusion, but then so did the Monsignor who endorsed it before the pope sent the letter also suggesting the author of that anti-Harry Potter book send a copy of it to Monsignor Poupard saying, "he needs to read it."


4:00 PM

Constance Cumbey said...

I do believe the shows are archived up at the MicroEffect.com. I will talk to Joe and try to get some clarification on them.


Constance Cumbey said...

Well, if Rowlings is a "Christian," she is definitely one of the "emergent church" variety and not anything I presently recognize. She's even far out by gnostic standards as I understand them -- bad enough in and of themselves.


Anonymous said...

The Beautiful Side of Evil is an outstanding book. Not a new one, but a great one.

Incidentally, tonight begins the 9 days of mourning prior to Tish b'Av,
by the Jewish people.


Bleedin Red White and Blue Baby! said...


Please check your gmail account for an email I just sent with the title need help/advice JD

Bleedin Red White and Blue Baby! said...

Amman revoking Palestinians' citizenship

Jordanian authorities have started revoking the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians living in Jordan to avoid a situation in which they would be "resettled" permanently in the kingdom, Jordanian and Palestinian officials revealed on Monday

The new measure has increased tensions between Jordanians and Palestinians, who make up around 70 percent of the kingdom's population.

The tensions reached their peak over the weekend when tens of thousands of fans of Jordan's Al-Faisali soccer team chanted slogans condemning Palestinians as traitors and collaborators with Israel. Al-Faisali was playing the rival Wihdat soccer team, made up of Jordanian-Palestinians, in the Jordanian town of Zarqa

more at link


paul said...

Maybe JK Rowling could ride her broom into the ongoing proceedings at Bohemian Grove this year.
She could land it right in front of a big hoot owl !

Anonymous said...

Rowlings July 29,2007 - claims to be christian - in front of an audience no less - I have also heard this same claim by radio personalites in the Detroit area and that these were nothing more than imaginative stories that mean no harm and can be catagorized with other fantasy type books.



Rudi said...

Awesome choice for a guest Constance. Johanna Michaelsen is an all time favorite of mine. I'm very much looking forward to todays program. -Rudi

Anonymous said...

Great guest Constance - thank you. I hope to be tuning in shortly.


DavidinB,C, said...

I think most people can just take something like Harry Potter as mere fantasy. However, there are those who may be led to exploring the occult. Before they know it, they're messing with those "spirit boards," tarot cards, and they're lives become totally consumed by this stuff. Suddenly, they become empty shells wondering why they can never find happiness in this life. Harry Potter does nothing to encourage or even plant Christian seeds in people, especially children. It only plants seeds for the occult.

Anonymous said...



Obama’s Pseudoscience Czar

July 18th, 2009 RWA

"DC forum member El Goodo has done some excellent detective work on Obama’s so-called economic czars, wading through dirty pools that other so-called muckrakers refuse to tread. The first person he’s looked into is “green jobs” czar Van Jones. In typical Wikipedia fashion, the checkered past and political extremism of a politically liberal public figure is almost completely discarded and that which is left is played down. As noted by El Goodo, Jones is a former communist who was radicalized by the 1992 Los Angeles riots and has continued to associate himself with groups on the far left, including the Free Press, which advocates government control of the media, and the radical Oakland community organization Speak Out Now! As extreme as these groups may be, they’re still a far cry from the “revolutionary” groups Jones used to associate himself with, such as the now defunct Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement (STORM)."

"Jones’s Wikipedia entry notes that he is a fellow of the Institute of Noetic Sciences....

"Why should we care about Jones’ affliation with these Noetic nutbars, you may ask? Because he’s been placed in charge of an assignment which requires that complex problems be solved with hardnosed facts and commitment to the scientific method, that’s why. Instead, Barack Obama has demonstrated with his choice of Jones that not only is he willing to continue placing politics above science, but he’s perfectly willing to appoint his own personal George Deutsch in a key position where science is supposed to be paramount. Don’t think that Jones is alone among the antiscience Left, either. With the Natural Law party no more, and the Green Party currently in even worse disarray than the Republicans (the official Green candidate Cynthia McKinney and Ralph Nader, who ran as an Independent, managed to receive less than 1% of the popular vote combined in November), you can expect the New Age eco-nuts to try for even closer rapproachment with the Democratic party. Which is fine by us if it helps the Republicans win more elections, but bad for the country if they actually get to implement their agenda."

Be advised that the write-up on who runs this website is humor.


Anonymous said...

Today 22 July 09 is the second in a set of three annual total solar eclipses all occuring on the 1st of Av, depending on which calendar you keep, they vary by a day or so.


Anonymous said...


URL to article: http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/22/120659/

Anonymous said...

Yet another avenue to push for a national ID card -
this one is from Schumer


Yvonne said...

WHO moves forward in secrecy to accomplish forced vaccination and population agenda
Published on 07-22-2009

By Jane Burgermeister

The WHO has refused to release the Minutes of a key meeting of an advisory vaccine group – packed with executives from Baxter, Novartis and Sanofi – that recommended compulsory vaccinations in the USA, Europe and other countries against the artificial H1N1 “swine flu” virus this autumn.

In an email this morning, a WHO spokesperson claimed there are no Minutes of the meeting that took place on July 7th in which guidelines on the need for worldwide vaccinations that WH0 adopted this Monday were formulated and in which Baxter and other pharma executives participated.

Under the International Health Regulations, WHO guidelines have a binding character on all of WHO’s 194 signatory countries in the event of a pandemic emergency of the kind anticipated this autumn when the second more lethal wave of the H1N1 virus — which is bioengineered to resemble the Spanish flu virus — emerges.

In short: WHO has the authority to force everyone in those 194 countries to take a vaccine this fall at gunpoint, impose quarantines and restrict travel.

There is verifiable, clear and unambiguous proof that WHO supplied the live bird flu virus to Baxter’s subsidiary in Austria, which was used by Baxter to manufacture 72 kilos of vaccine material in Febuary.

Baxter subsequently sent this material out to 16 labs in four countries under a false label designating the contaminated product as vaccine material, so nearly triggering a global pandemic.

Because Baxter must adhere to strict biosafety level 3 regulations when handling a dangerus virus such as the bird flu virus, the production and distribution of so much pandemic material cannot have been an accident but must have been done by Baxter with criminal intent.

The Austrian police are now investigating after I filed criminal charges in April.

It is increasingly clear that WHO and Baxter are just elements in a much bigger criminal organisation that is moving forward in a synchronised and coordinated way to fulfil the “elite” agenda of global population reduction in the coming months and years while putting in place a global government of which WHO will be an arm.

WHO, a UN agency, appears to play a key role in coordinating the activities of labs, vaccine companies and governments to achieve the goal of population reduction and political and economic take over of North America and Europe:

- First, WHO gives funds, support and cover to labs such as the CDC to bioprospect for pathogens, bioengineer them to make them more deadly, and also patent them.

- Second, WHO gives those same deadly bioengineered pathogens to companies such as Baxter in Austria, so that Baxter could use those viruses to deliberately, systematically contaminate vaccine material. If the contamination of the 72 kilos had not been detection on time by a lab technician in the Czech Republic, millions of people would have caught the “bird flu” from the injections.

- Third, in the event of a pandemic, WHO orders a compulsory vaccines for all 194 countries, following “recommendations” by an advisory vaccine group on which executives of Baxter also sit.

- Fourth, WHO awards Baxter, Novartis, Sanofi and other companies lucrative contracts to supply those vaccines.

Furthermore, WHO acquires new global authority on an unseen scale in the event of a pandemic.

Under special pandemic plans enacted around the world including the USA, in 2005, national governments are to be dissolved in the event of a pandemic emergency and replaced by special crisis committees, which take charge of the health and security infrastructure of a country, and which are answerable to the WHO and EU in Europe and to the WHO and UN in North America.

Yvonne said...

If the Model Emergency Health Powers Act is implemented on the instructions of WHI, it will be a criminal offence for Americans to refuse the vaccine. Police are allowed to use deadly force against “criminal” suspects.

Through their control of these special pandemic crisis committees with the power to enact legislation to be set up most countries, the WHO, UN and EU become the de facto government of a large part of the world.

Mass murder and death will also bring economic collapse and disruption, starvation and wars – and these events will lead to a further population reduction.

To sum up: WHO helps create, distribute and then release the deadly pandemic virus, and this pandemic virus allows WHO to assume control of governments in North America and Europe and also order forced vaccination on populations by the very same companies that have distributed and released the deadly viruses in the first place and all under under the pretext of protecting populations from a pandemic they have created.

The corporate mainstream media owned by the same “elite” group which funds WHO is systematically concealing from the general public the nature of the real danger of these H1N1 jabs by withholding from them key information concerning the interrelated activities of this group of organisations for their mutual profit.

As a result, most people still believe that the H1N1 virus is a natural swine flu when even WHO has officially dropped the term “swine” in tactic acknowledgement of its artificial origin.

Most people still believe the vaccine companies can deliver a cure when the vaccine companies are preparing a lethal series of shots containg live attenuated virus, toxic metals and other poisons.

The two-dose H1N1 shots are designed to disable the immune system and then load that system with a live virus in a process that mirrors the one described in two of WHO’s 1972 memoranda where the technical means for turning vaccines into killers is outlined.

The Strecker Memorandum also reveals that WHO has been actively searching for ways to weaken the immune system.

The best protection against the H1N1 virus that has now been released and that will inevtiably become more lethal as it mutates in autumn is colloidal silver and also vitamins to strengthen the immune system, face masks and other such measures.

Yvonne said...

continued :
However, none of the governments in North America or Europe have stocked up on colloidal silver or announced sensible health measures to contain the coming lethal wave.

Instead, there are growing signs, they will use the panic to terrify people into taking the toxic vaccines which are sure to cause injury or damage because of the presence of heavy metals alone.

This mass vaccination will moreover alllow ever more lethal strains to emerge and also provide a cover for a release of bird flu virus or other pathogens.

This is why steps need to be taken now to stop the mass vaccinations anticipated in autumn by taking legal action to block the distribution of vaccines and/or laws allowing govenrments to force people to take vaccinations.

An investigation into this international corporate crime syndicate has to be conducted in every country because it has its tentacles in every country, and to try to initiate this in the USA, I filed charges with the FBI against WHO and the UN among other defendants in June. I included President Obama among the defendants because I believe the time has come to identify and isolate the core members of this international corporate criminal group which has annexed high government office in the USA, and put them in prison once and for all, and there are reports that Obama has direct financial links with Baxter that need to be investigated by law enforcement.

There is evidence the Austrian Health Minister and other officials have been helping Baxter to cover its tracks.

Also, there is clear evidence that elements of the Austrian media are involved in actively spreading lies and misinformation to lull people into a false sense of security concerning Baxter’s manufacture and distribution of pandemic material in Austria this February.

Vital is for individuals and local authorities need to take effective measures to protect against the coming lethal wave of the H1N1 virus to minimise its impact.

To find to out about the charges I have filed so far in German and English in Austria also with the FBI, please check the wakenews website.


Yvonne said...

Is this a connection to the Pope?

Large amounts of money were recently awarded to these companies. Drudge Report 7/21/09
Clougherty Packing LLC - Hormel - farmer john brand LA CALifornia. for Pork, intended for the soup kitchens of the USA.
Miceli Dairy - Cheese-
Bongards Creameries - Cheese Minn.
Lakeside Foods Inc Wis.

Note: Miceli Owner Joseph D Miceli is also CEO of Liberty Bank
and Joseph D. Miceli is a Member of Legatus.
Other Legatus founders and members are Thomas Stephen Monaghan of Domino Pizza fame,
Tom Angott d: 2008 founding member of Legatus.
He was also on the board of every Creamery in the area.
Although Legatus appears to be working for Christ, and is a part of the Catholic church. it has simalar motto to the Family in they are the chosen,
I do find it interesting that Obama had a talk just last week with the Pope and then the funds were distributed.
How much of this is going back to the Church. and how many of the CEO or owners of the other companies are part of Legatus?

Constance Cumbey said...

Tom Monaghan is pretty much his own man. Many people cater to him because he has wealth. He is a good person. I don't always agree with his ideas or actions BUT I believe he is a man of conscience. I know there have been some who entered Legatus (remember, it is Michigan based and so am I) because they thought it would give access to money. There is one known link to THE FAMILY through the Monaghan operations and that is Michael
Timmis, a Detroit attorney, who now heads PRISON FELLOWSHIP. Timmis has probably been far more influenced by Doug Coe (who "discipled" him personally per Timmis' 2008 book) than by Tom Monaghan. Timmis said he traveled to something like 148 countries for Doug Coe.

Monaghan once fired Fr. Fessio at his university. If the Pope had been calling the shots, its doubtful this may have happened. Fr. Fessio was one of the pope's former students and is a friend. I heard Fessio express disagreement with the pope over the appointment of Cardinal Levada . . .

Things may not be quite as monolithic as they first may seemingly appear.


Anonymous said...

The 8:29 post dealing with vaccines using cells from aborted fetuses is extremely important. I read nothing in the article that said records are kept why the abortion took place. If it was taken for concern about the health of the aborted child, it seems to me that the problem could be passed on through the vaccine.

I'm not a scientist and don't claim to be one, but nothing good comes from the pro-abortion mentality.


Anonymous said...

How interesting Joyce's last two posts on a previous thread. I don't think that there will be such a leap into the New Age at once. More likely there will be a blending of religions that will be rationalized, and in fact that is already taking place.

I had difficulty answering how the Muslim population would be handled under the New Age scenario. Now I know from doing a search how it is happening on a very large scale.

Can you help with that information Joyce?


yvonne said...

With the now known connection of recieving money's from a government bent on Global Governance and the ties of the legatus to its past history of the ancient Roman Empire. as well as the Vatican of Pope Paul.
And the Power that Thomas Stephen Monaghan,its founder,has come to have in the Supreme court, and the political spheres of Florida. at the very least, should be reason to consider it in more detail, since one was influenced by Doug Coe. And there is no actual list of those that are members.
Lets remember that Gov. Bush of Florida was indeed the brother to President Bush. How far did these influences go? with Doug Coe in and out of the picture of the white house also frequently?

Anonymous said...

Robert Hormats, former Vice Chairman of Goldman Sachs was just appointed to the State Dept. under Clinton.

He will take over/run the place, and if my guess is right Hillery will just fade away or quit. She looks awful.

Hormats is a Globalist 1st class.
Watch out for him.

Also watch Gen. Jim Jones. "As the most recent National Security Advisor of the United States, I take my daily orders from Dr. Kissinger, filtered down through General Brent Scowcroft and Sandy Berger, who is also here. We have a chain of command in the National Security Council that exists today."


Joyce said...

Newspaceman had a question for you on the previous topic.. I took the liberty of answering his question. I hope you don't mind.

Dawn said...


I am not Joyce.

I have wonder the same thing about Muslims.

I know there is much speculations that their religion will be used against the other two other monotheistic religions (such as you will convert or you will be be-headed).

It would be interesting to get a perspective from a Muslim point of view. Is the New Age diluting their religion also?

I look forward to Joyce's response.

oldmanoftheski said...

Dorothy, Dawn,

Daniel Pipes has a good article on the “Islamist-Leftest Allied Menace” which may help explain how the Moslem world fits into the "new age".


Of course neither side is telling the truth in this unholy marriage of convenience, nor is either side dumb enough to believe the other side is acting honorably. It’s all about obtaining advantage.

The AOC is obviously setting the world’s religions up for dhimmi status. It’s only logical to assume that the Moslems would go along with that, since in Islam, it’s okay to lie to your enemies in order to advance jihad. I think everybody knows that the Islamists will never stop trying to dominate the world. I think many prominent Muslim leaders will make a pretense of going along with the NA plan since they would view the imposition of an AOC style dhimmi status on the rest of the world's religions as a situation advantageous to their jihadists.

Of course my view of the "New Age" involves chaos, wars, famines and upheavals, not lovey dovey gaia centered kum-by-ya.

Anonymous said...

I like the ability to access the comments at the beginning of your new posts. Nice change, thanks.

Anonymous said...


Your question to Joyce about the Muslims is partially answered by the work of de Chardin and contemplative prayer. You can read about the work of Eboo Patel in Chicago here:


He's having a conference in Chicago for youth leadership in October 2009. The other kynote speaker is Jim Wallis of the Emergent Christian Sojourners organization. You can read about the relevance of contemplative prayer (or watch videos) here at the Sojourner's site:


Contemplative prayer leads to this amorphous, one-world religion. I'll say it again, contemplative prayer leads to a blurring the lines between the faiths by emphasizing the link to God and ignoring doctrinal differences and the distinct beliefs about the very identity of God. It is that idea that all paths lead to God so long as we're all nice and well behaved.

You can reseach Patel and his role in promoting those ideas among Muslims. He has been called the Rick Warren of Islam.

This is a piece of the Muslim puzzle and I think will appeal to young Muslims who desire to fit in and not be perceived as "fundamentalists". This is just as some Christians are attracted to Emergent Christianity because it lets them pretend to follow Christ but keep their "progressive" ideas they learnt in school.

I hope I partially answered your question.

BTW, since you're in the Windy City, maybe you could attend and report on it. It's being funded by the Henry Luce Foundation, the Righteous Person's Foundation and the McCormick Foundation. If I'm not mistaken, the Righteous Person's Foundation is weighted heavily towards Jewish issues and the McCormick Foundation is a Chicago Tribune foundation.



Anonymous said...


Conincidentally, there is currently an article at Herescope which discusses the convergence of Emergent Christianity and the New Age and specifically credits Constance for seeing the potential so long ago.

I believe Eboo Patel is the Muslim equivalent. It is just in the earlier stage, maybe where Christianity was when Constance first began to sound the alarm.

Here is the link:


Notice the quote at the top of the article, it's from Teilhard de Chardin. It begins with methodologies and ends with relinquishing doctrinal distinctives.



Anonymous said...

Sorry about all the spelling errors. I've got six running around with water guns.



Craig said...


I'm on the Discernment Ministries email list; so, I saw the Herescope article you refered to. I've been telling friends of mine for about 2 years now how the emergents will merge with the Dominionists/Latter Rain/Joels Army/etc and converge with the New Agers. Bob DeWaay did a great job. I'll have to get his book.

I only found out about this Dominionist/Latter Rain stuff from a woman I met over 2 years ago who was into it. She used some codewords (and twisted scriptures) that I wasn't familiar with initially. I had to do a search online and I found quite a bit of info. I then recognized it as new age in origin having read Constance's Hidden Dangers book years ago. It's really incredible the speed with which this stuff has been coming together recently!

Anonymous said...

I'm more concerned about what is called Messianic Muslims which seems to be attracting many Muslims. Just like those involved in Messianic Judaism, this group keeps much in the way of Muslimic activity while also combining with Christianity.

This is one of several dozen websites dealing with this phenomenon.

A New Evangelism for the 21st Century
Mar 24, 2000 ... It has also been reported on this new evangelism, “Messianic Muslims” who continue to read the Koran, visit the mosque and say their daily ...
www.letusreason.org/Curren33.htm - Cached - Similar
More results from www.letusreason.org »

I've even seen references to combining with the Hindu community.

In Africa Alone Everyday, 16,000 Muslims Leave Islam.

It seems to me that this is a real precursor to the New Age blending of religions. If it is being done quietly behind the scenes, it can be brought forward as showing how everyone is getting along so beautifully. However, from what I've seen, the Muslims are not happy, as Jews are not, with this deceptive effort. New Age leaders will just ignore what is going on and present what they want the public to see.

Since Joyce was so involved with Messianic Judaism, I thought she might know something about the Messianic Muslim movement.


Joyce said...

We can see from AoC and similar initiatives that there is a blending taking place between the 3 major religions and you have Muslims like Prince Bin Talel Alwaleed working on an initiative like Abraham's Path with people like Barbara Marx Hubbard, or the Jordanian Royal family pushing Common Word and also active in AoC.

This is one aspect of this mixing. There is the other aspect of the mixing which someone pointed out that is the Messianic Muslims.. I don't think a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist can hold on to their practices and throw Yeshua into the mix. The real difference with Jews, is that Yeshua was a Jew Himself. Praying towards Mecca means that your rearend faces Jerusalem and you are praying to a different god. I do not believe the Allah of Islam is the Elohim of the Bible...

This is syncretism, and I don't believe God wants us to worship "other gods" or keep our pagan practices. I didn't hear the show, but it's the same reason that believers shouldn't read Harry Potter, or do yoga or walk a labyrinth which are also pagan practices.

Here are all the Torah reasons why we are not to do what the nations do, when we follow the God of Israel:

Lev. 18:3 ‘You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is bdone in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you; you shall not walk in their statutes.

Deut. 11:16 “Beware that your hearts are not deceived, and that you do not turn away and serve other gods and worship them.

This commandment:

Ex. 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

translates literally from the Hebrew, you shall have no other gods before my face, so if we put a mask on God as the children of Israel did when they worshipped the golden calf and called it YHVH, then we are putting a mask over the face of God.

The reason that I believe Torah is so important is because it is God's holy teaching and instructions that protect us from apostasy. Sadly, because many churches believe that the "Law has been done away with" they don't understand God's holiness and they ignore His instructions about many things. Yes, Yeshua paid for our sins, but He said He didn't come to abolish Torah.. a point overlooked by most Christian theologians. He said heaven and earth will pass away, but not His Word.

If we follow Yeshua, we will do what He did. There was something going around a few years ago WWJD, what would Jesus do? Well, He would have honored the Sabbath, eaten kosher, observered all the Biblical feasts and given proper interpretation to the Torah.. ( He did not go to Mecca or celebrate Ramadan)

I think the apostasy will come because of "torahlessness" which we translate in our Bibles lawlessness. It's lack of God's instructions, His teachings and His commands. This will lead to babel ( confusion) which is exactly what we see going on today.

There is all kind of mixing going on today, and some who will never mix because it's like oil and water, so I think we have both trends.. Those who are "extreme" in their views like Orthodox Jews, Fundamentalist Christians, or Fundamentalist Muslims.. These folks will not mix.

Then there are any number of combinations of mixing from interspiritual, to interfaith, to syncretistic practices.

There is unity around the truth. God is echad ( one) and He has one truth. It's up to us to find that truth in His Word and attach ourselves to it. This is what I would define as true unity. In the Garden there was no religion until the snake came along and created a new one...When we are back in Gan Eden there will not be religion, only the Word of God.

Rev. 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Needless to say, the Garden has not yet been restored.


Joyce said...

Just one other point. Yeshua was a Jew, but would not have necessarily adhered to all of what is practiced in modern-day Judaism, so I want to qualify my statement. Yeshua lived during a period of great division. There was no Northern Kingdom, no king, no ark of the covenant, Israel was under foreign occupation and the shecaniah glory of God was no longer in the Temple, the Jews were quite divided in their practices, similar to today, but not exactly the same. Yeshua came at a period when Israel was yearning for redemption from its foreign occupiers. He came to redeem them, but not in the way they thought.. The second time He will come as the glorious King.

Post-babylon a lot of things developed which makes you wonder what the Jews took out of Babylon with them. The whole of Israel always had difficulty just obeying the Word of God. They worshipped the baals and picked up things in exile, like in Egypt which they often had difficulty getting rid of. It's exactly the same today. If Israel were walking in perfect obedience, we would see God's glory.

I am a Jew, and I love my people Israel, but am also conscious of the fact that we haven't always gotten it right. We actually need God to write Torah on our minds because when we try to do it without Him, we always fail. For those of us who believe that the covenant has been improved with the blood of Yeshua know that the covenant is written on our minds by Him, not by our own efforts or rule following.

Yeshua kept Torah perfectly and He's our role model, but we are justified by His blood. Our good works are like filthy rags before a Holy God.

For all of you who belong to "the church" God's newer improved covenant is with the house of Judah and the house of Israel. It's open to the nations, but the nations become grafted into the olive tree of Israel:

Jer. 31:31-33 “aBehold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a bnew covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I btook them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Paul said it too:

Rom. 11:17-18 But if some of the branches were broken off, and byou, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that ait is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

The root of the olive tree is Yeshua, the olive tree is Israel...The root provides the tree with living water.

Rev. 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things 1cfor the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

He's the "root" and the "offspring" at the same time..that's because He was there from before the foundation of the world.

As a Jew on this blog, I want to say you today, regardless of your denominational affiliation, your race, etc. you have not replaced us, you are not supposed to be another entity, your all called to be part of the family. Welcome to the covenant;

Eph. 2:12-13 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having cno hope and without God in the world. But now in aChrist Jesus you who formerly were cfar off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

This is what true biblical unity looks like..
It's called the covenant of shalom ( wholeness)


Joyce said...

I just want to add one more thing to my previous comments.. Some people think we should all "practice our own religion". Each one, as long as they are sincere will find the way through their own path, be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism.

This is the great tolerance be preached today. Live and let live and lets learn how to have unity and respect in the midst of our differences. To this I want to say rubbish! We can't change anyone, only God can, but there are not 31 different varieties of truth, like Baskin and Robbins ice cream.

There is only one truth.. and if we search with all of our hearts God will reveal it to us. It's not a question of birth of race or nationality. It's a question of seeking the Holy One the Creator of heaven and earth with all of our hearts, minds and souls.. When we do, He will reveal Himself.

NO ONE today out there in the governments or the religious organizations will dare to say there is ONE truth only. This is not politically correct, so everyone either lies and pretends they respects the other's religion or tolerates another's religion and thinks the other might be right too...

This is why Jerusalem will be one of the biggest battles of our day because it's place where God has placed His Name. This is what He said to King Solomon about the Temple.

1Kings 9:3 The LORD said to him, “I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built bby putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually.

I don't have all the answers about everything that Scripture says, but one thing I do know is that God is not a God of confusion and He has only One Truth. Now, I don't think He is sitting there looking to hang people for doctrinal differences, but I do think think He is looking for worshippers who will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

John 4:23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

Folks, the hour is now...

The very wise King David said:

1Chr. 28:9 “As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

We all recognize that we live in evil days, so it would be good for all of us, without exception to be seeking the face of God, and asking Him to lead us in His truth.

In the words of my favorite rabbi and my Messiah Yeshua:

Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.


Rudi said...

AMEN Joyce. Thank You. -Rudi

Anonymous said...

AMEN, Joyce!


Anonymous said...

Joyce, you write,
"As a Jew on this blog, I want to say you today, regardless of your denominational affiliation, your race, etc. you have not replaced us, you are not supposed to be another entity, your all called to be part of the family. Welcome to the covenant;..."

Yes, I've heard very religious Jews say the same thing, but you aren't one. I'm not sure what you are. Interesting wording Joyce. Do you tell everyone you are a Messianic Jew or are you only a Jew, not even a Messianic Jew, on this blog. "No man can serve two masters..."

But Joyce, you aren't a Jew. You can call yourself one on this blog, but it really doesn't matter what you "think" you are. You left Judaism behind you and joined a very new religion, which is an offshoot of the New Age movement where religions can be blended.

You say, "I don't think a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist can hold on to their practices and throw Yeshua into the mix. The real difference with Jews, is that Yeshua was a Jew Himself."

It doesn't matter what you think. The reality is that the movement is what is being preached by some Christians, probably the same ones who developed Messianic Judaism. I didn't ask what you thought. I wondered what you knew about the actual Messianic Muslim movement. Saying what you "think" didn't answer the question. But that's OK. Maybe you know nothing about that movement.

You write, "There is all kind of mixing going on today, and some who will never mix because it's like oil and water, so I think we have both trends.. Those who are "extreme" in their views like Orthodox Jews, Fundamentalist Christians, or Fundamentalist Muslims.. These folks will not mix."

Interesting language that I believe we've heard elsewhere. I don't think all real Jews who will not become Christians are extreme, and the reality is that the Messianic movement has converted very few Jews. I believe its purpose is to convince many Christians that the two religions can be blended, just as the Messianic Muslim movement will be used over time to convince others that Christianity and Islam can be blended. It's a very New Age theme. I'll admit, I don't have full documentation on that idea, though I continue to gather it.

Joyce, you wrote another New Age theme when you wrote the following:
"Some people think we should all "practice our own religion". Each one, as long as they are sincere will find the way through their own path, be it Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism.

This is the great tolerance be preached today. Live and let live and lets learn how to have unity and respect in the midst of our differences. To this I want to say rubbish! We can't change anyone, only God can, but there are not 31 different varieties of truth, like Baskin and Robbins ice cream."

Are you telling the Christians on this blog that their truth is just like the truth of every other group of believers? One of many different paths to God? How strange you would group them with the others. You certainly are sending mixed messages. Are Messianic Judaism and Messianic Muslims and possibly Messianic Hindus just some of the other 31 flavors or is Messianic Judaism the true and only correct path, the only name you use when speaking with others off this blog?

Oh well, I'm just trying to learn more about this very organized, bought and paid for, New Age Messianic movement rather than learn what you think. As others have said when I tried to teach them about the New Age movement, "I'm not concerned. It's not what I think." I've responded, "It doesn't matter what you "think" unless you are running the world."

On to learning more about the origins of the Messianic Muslim movement.


Constance Cumbey said...

Sarah Leslie and I will be on together this evening for another interesting development on her latest research combined with mine on "emergent church" developments.


Constance Cumbey said...

I am not going to denigrate anybody here for professing belief in Jesus Christ. Hitler examined peoples' birth certificates, not their baptismal certificates. Personally, I do not subscribe to many "Messianic Judaism" beliefs and practices, but I do know that there are people who sincerely hold those beliefs and are honoring God by conformance to what they believe He requires of their life in spiritual practices.

Joyce is a Messianic Jew, meaning somebody who believes Jesus is the Christ. Here in the Detroit area there are numerous people born and raised in Orthodox and Conservative Judaism circles who belong to Messianic Judaism congregations. I spoke last year to a fine congregation of this nature in Mansfield, Ohio.

The day is coming when God will sort it all out for us, but in the meantime, I condemn no one as "inauthentic" for professing belief in Jesus or "Yeshua" as Joyce and others put it.

I understand from Joyce that she is Jewish by ancestry and birth. I will never condemn her or anybody else for professing belief in Jesus as the Jewish messiah.


Constance Cumbey said...

If there is one very strong tenet of the New Age Movement, it is that Jesus is NOT the Christ. New Agers have Jews, Christians, and Moslems all in their sights as "Peoples of the Book."


Constance Cumbey said...

Personally, I believe God is the God of the whole earth and that one does not have to bow toward Jerusalem, Mecca, Salt Lake City, Vatican City or anywhere else to honor Him. I do believe that there are probably Moslems sorting things out who advance to faith in Jesus as the Son of God who probably do mix things as they are growing in faith and knowledge. What sorts things out biblically, per 2nd Thessalonians, Chapter 2 is not PERFECT TRUTH, it is the LOVE OF THE TRUTH. As God increases our knowledge and awareness, we have to walk in the light He gives us.


Anonymous said...


I do believe Joyce is a big girl who can respond on her own if she feels the need to do so. There's always the possibility she has hired you as her lawyer to defend her on this blog, but if so, that's between the two of you.

Let's deal with the fact that part of the Christian community is supporting both the Messianic Judaism movement and the Messianic Muslim movement and is supporting the blending of these religions.

Do you really think the New Agers are so stupid that they wouldn't plan how they are going to bring about the blending of the religions? Do you really think that serious Jews and Christians will abruptly leave their beliefs behind to move to support an Earth Charter or some other put-together. No, these people will have to be shown that it is happening already and that everyone is happy with the blending.

This isn't all about Joyce, any more than all of the New Age movement is about Barbara Marx Hubbard and no one else. Joyce is small potatoes in the scheme of things. For all we know about her, she could be one of the "true believers" who has never examined who has organized her movement rather than being one of the major leaders in the movement. Right? So, rather than focusing on Joyce, let's start looking at this larger picture which I see as part of the New Age effort.

Christianity and Judaism cannot be blended as Islam and Judaism can't be blended, and yet there are people funding this effort with lots of money. The bigger question is why.

One of the key methods in promoting the New Age movement is reaching people through what they believe.
A look at the Whole Again website will show how this is being done in the secular area. Is this being done in the religious community as well?

It's completely irrational to try and sell the package that Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all just a little bit wrong and can be blended with just a little flexibility on the part of all of the three religions and that they all shouldn't be extreme. So, why is it being funded?


Craig said...

Constance wrote:

"What sorts things out biblically, per 2nd Thessalonians, Chapter 2 is not PERFECT TRUTH, it is the LOVE OF THE TRUTH. As God increases our knowledge and awareness, we have to walk in the light He gives us."

AMEN to that!

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Anonymous said...


Someday Christianity and Judaism WILL be blended.

Carefully read Zechariah Chapter 12 and tell all of us your interpetation.


Anonymous said...

Looks to me like Constance wasn't defending Joyce. She was defending JESUS. We all should!

Joyce said...

This is not quite a doctrinal statment, but close...

Dorothy was wrong in saying I can defend myself, because Yeshua is my defense, I don't need to defend anything...

Just want to clarify my comments. No 1, I have never exactly called myself a Messianic Jew. I am a Jew and I believe in Yeshua, so that's no 1. Being a Jew is a fact of heredity. I will never deny my Jewish identity. Too many of my people have hidden their identity. Esau despised his birthright. I am very aware of my birthright.

I do not believe that being a descendant of the House of Judah automatically means that I must reject the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua. On the contrary, I find it perfectly logical that I would believe in my Jewish Messiah, in spite of the fact that modern day Judaism hates this idea. In the first century there were a fair amount of Jews who considered themselves Jews and believed that Yeshua was the Messiah spoken of by the Prophets.

Not only do I believe in Yeshua but I believe that the Torah has not been cancelled and that historic Christianity erred sometime back in the 3rd Century in pat because of anti-semitism and in part because after the Simon Bar Kochba rebellion a greater schism developed between Jewish believers in Yeshua and Jews who followed Bar Kockba and fought the Romans. I believe that God will rectify this and in Yeshua one day we will have true shalom.

The other fact is that I believe there is only one way to salvation and that is through Yeshua ( thus his name.. salvation is of God) I believe all people Jews, Arabs, Greeks, Chinese, Africans, etc. all need redemption because we are all born in a state of separation from God. I believe Israel are the people chosen by God, through whom all the families of the earth would be blessed as God promised to Abraham and who would be instrumental restoring this broken relationship.

I must clarify and say that I mean all Israel,( but the visible remnant of all Israel at the moment is the house of Judah -Jews ), was called to be a blessing to the nations by walking with the God of Israel and thus being a light to the nations, pointing them to the one true and living God. The second way that Israel, specifically Judah is a blessing is by preserving the Torah, and the third way that israel is a blessing is through the birth of Yeshua the Messiah, the living Torah who was born to the 4th tribe of Israel, namely Judah.

I believe that all of God's Word from Genesis ( Bereshit) to Revelations is truth, and relevant for all people at all times, and to the extent we can follow it we should. There are many things that we cannot follow, or do not apply to us. Yeshua's blood has taken away the need for sin and guilt offerings, but other offerings will be restored in the Millennial Temple ( eze 46) I believe that the nations are called to attach themselves to Israel, but I believe Israel needs to see their Messiah Yeshua and all the problems will be cleared up.


Joyce said...

Don't have much use for religion, because religion is man's attempt to put God in a box instead of just listening to His Word and believing in it i.e. Shema Y'israel the Lord is God the Lord is echad...

I believe that the gospel of the Kingdom will be preached to the four corners of the earth and then the end will come. We're pretty close to that point in my opinion.

I believe that Yeshua is echad with YHVH, and He will reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years, after which there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem will come from above and those of us who have believed in the atoning work of Yeshua, Jew, Greek, Chinese... will no longer live in the separation that was created in Gan Eden when man/woman tried to be like God by eating of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. ( i.e. we will live in delight which is what eden is)

We were already created in His image and given dominion over everything, and the snake succeeding in deceiving us into choosing death over life. Yeshua came as the second Adam and defeated the evil one, defeated sin and death and in Him we live and breath and have our being.

I believe that all 12 tribes of Israel will one day inhabit the Land, according to their tribal boundaries, but not until Yeshua comes to reign. In the meantime, as Yeshua said we will have wars and rumors of wars and all kinds of natural disasters. Men's love will grow cold there will be many false messiah's who will come in Yeshua name and claim to be the Messiah, etc..
Without Him... the prospects are to live in separation... commonly referred to as hell.

I don't mind people being "extreme" as long as they are extreme according to the truth of Scripture.


Anonymous said...

If you don't want to clarify what you wrote, it really doesn't matter. People who think intellectually and not emotionally know what you wrote.

You're back in preacher mode with your posts. Now you want to proclaim yourself a church of one. Others like to hear you preach because you are talking to Christians who want to see Jews convert. I'm sure you've found yourself a job as a good tent preacher somewhere in the world. It's a living.

Those of us who don't want to be blended, ala Alice Bailey, will always be a thorn in the side of people like you, but I'm sure you can live with it.

You write, "I don't mind people being "extreme" as long as they are extreme according to the truth of Scripture." That's what Jew haters have been saying about Jews throughout history. May your numbers not increase!


Rudi said...

"If you don't want to clarify what you wrote, it really doesn't matter. People who think intellectually and not emotionally know what you wrote."

Yes we certainly do, very clearly in fact. Thank You again Joyce AND Constance for being overwhelmingly clear and direct.


Anonymous said...

Ok I could not help but chuckle a bit

I'm sure you've found yourself a job as a good tent preacher somewhere in the world. It's a living.

Anonymous said...


This is intellectually clear regarding blending of religions being done through the support of some in the Christian community. I would encourage everyone to read it.

Blending religions is a New Age activity no matter who is doing it. Exposing a small part of the New Age movement while supporting a much larger part of it is just another tactic of NA.


Anonymous said...

Not being a Christian I do have difficulty following all of the different branches and determining what they are saying. I knew what Constance said about the Emergent church and had no doubt her information was accurate.

You may have come across this link at Let Us Reason already, but it did help me understand better how the philosophy of came together with other parts of the New Age movement. I did a search here and saw that Leonard Sweet wasn't covered. The write up did show me how it tied in with the Chardin promotion link I posted recently. Do keep in mind there are two different types of Kabbalah, Jewish and Christian. I'm not sure which one they are talking about as I've not compared the two.
This is the directory of writing on the Emergent Church.

The Emergence of a "Mystical Church" -The Emergent church and the new age movement This is the particular piece I found very informative.

Thanks for the link about the group meeting in Chicago. I'll have to see what this old body can handle in October.


Anonymous said...

Dear Joyce

Thank you so much for your comments. I have been a believer for over 50 years and know the Bible and the inspired Word of God. You spoke exactly what the Word teaches and I am glad that someone had the strength and fortitude to speak the truth in a world that mingles half-truths and forces it on others. Keep quoting the Word and serving our Lord. Blessings.


Anonymous said...

I sent this out to my email list and someone suggested I post it here.

Bjorn Freiberg

This is to let you know how things surface if you are in touch with him or if you haven't followed what is going on. He was on my email list until all of this surfaced. Like many others I trusted him.

If you are following the discussion about Bjorn Freiberg's connection to occult blogs you might be interested in reading his new post dated July 23. The first part is standard antisemitic writing attacking and connecting Jews and Masonry.

To review, BF appeared and then started posting on his own blog information about the European Union. It appeared to be quite specific information. He appeared to be very knowledgeable about the occult. He also was posting at another Christian website, Fulfilled Prophecy, and appears to have networked with other Christian websites and individuals as a result. He developed a following. Recently a family member contacted Constance Cumbey telling of his other life, involvement in his own occult blog and other very heavily occult ones. All of this is described on Constance Cumbey's blog. I didn't see any tie to a deeper level on the blogs myself, but someone more knowledgeable than I am has traced another connection found on one of the blogs that is on the very dark side. As a result of the occult link surfacing, it was also found out that he has had quite an official extensive professional connection within the European Union.

Other than a link on his blog to a website with antisemitic views, until now there has been no overt antisemitism that anyone noted. At this point it is very easy to put the pieces together.


Constance Cumbey said...

12 minutes from AIRTIME with Sarah Leslie and self.

Join us at www. themicroeffect.com


Walt said...

Hi Constance

Tuned in late to radio show and called in at 8:54 and was told it was too late I'll try again next Tuesday.


Anonymous said...

tephAnyone who knows the Old Testament would come to the conclusion that Christianity is fulfilled Judaism.

There's no hatred in that statement, but look at the facts:

The Lord gives Israel The Feasts of the Lord in Lev.23. These are the celebrations that belong to God but given to Israel. Israel celebrate these feasts once a year and have been doing so for thousands of years.

These feasts actually portray the agenda of the Messiah, the great accomplishments that He would accomplish in the future, and, when what each feast symbolizes, when it's fulfilled, it's done so at the time the Jews are celebrating the feast. Or, in other words:

Passover symbolized the death of the Passover Lamb, and when this feast was fulfilled, Jesus was crucified at Passover.

The Feast of Unleavened Bread symbolized the sinlessness of Christ, that he would not decay in the grave; Jesus was in the grave when this was fulfilled.

The Feast of First Fruits symbolized His resurrection, and Jesus rose from the dead the day they celebrated First Fruits.

The Feast of Weeks took place 7 weeks, plus one day, later, and the Church was born.

The spring time feasts were fulfilled in Christ's first coming.

The Fall Feast will be fulfilled at His second coming, they are as follows:

Feast of Trumpets symbolizes the Rapture.

The Day of Atonement symbolizes the day that God forgives Israel for rejecting Christ and killing him.

The Feast of Booths symbolizes the day that God lives in the presence of man in Jerusalem.

Thus, Judaism is fulfilled in Christianity.

The two will kiss at the end of the age and Israel will accept Christ, Jesus will rule the earth, and all prophecy will be completed and fulfilled.

I can hardly wait, how about you?

Anonymous said...

"The two will kiss at the end of the age and Israel will accept Christ, Jesus will rule the earth, and all prophecy will be completed and fulfilled"

I'm glad it bring you comfort to believe that. Be well.


Constance Cumbey said...

Time and events will tell what the ultimate outcome will be. I cannot deny my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As the Apostle Paul tells us: "We see through glass darkly." We must all pray that God will give us the LOVE of the truth. The difference between Christian belief and New Age deception is that Christians believe Jesus will come back in power and glory in the CLOUDS of Heaven. Further, the peophecy is we MEET HIM IN THE AIR. It will not be somebody on TV or in a spectacular signs and wonder side show. When an event of that magnitude occurs, I suspect all the rational world will cheerfully accept what has come.


Joyce said...

I wasn't so much talking about people who make mistakes when they first come to the Lord as the teachers who teach them to continue in their old ways. This is the Western marketing techniques being promoted as a means to "reach people today".

Some people believe that the gospel must be made "palatable" to be accepted so they offer it to people in ways that are "culturally relevant". The problem with this is that in the process they forget that God calls us to "leave our father's house, our country, etc" . As you remember Abraham took Lot at first and it caused nothing but problems for him.

Imagine if God said to Abraham "go from Babylon and take the pagan worship of your native land and adapt it for the Promised Land".

Granted, there is a process of spiritual maturity that people go through where they learn to leave behind things of their past, but as teachers of the Bible we should not be encouraging people to deliberately "mix" pagan practices to make God seem more appealing.

This is unfortunately the motivation behind all of these movements. God created culture and there are things from culture that can be sanctified and things that can't be and as teachers of the gospel ( I'm assuming we are all called to make disciples in one way or another, as Yeshua said) we are supposed to teach all that God commanded.

God did not want the Israelites to worship a golden calf and call it YHVH. This is an example of mixing the worship of Egypt with true worship.

Ex. 32:8 “They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’”

Then there was Abihu and Nadab, Aaron's sons who offered "strange fire" to the Lord.

The Bible teaches us that there are ways and ways to worship God, in spirit and in truth. Sometimes people make mistakes so we're not talking about this, but the problem is that the methodology that's being promoted to teach people today leads them right back to Egypt and they remain as slaves.

The reason these methods are being used is because it's hard to leave Egypt. It's easier to remain slaves and drink the water from Egypt and eat the bread from Egypt, but God wants to take us into the Wilderness and teach us His ways to eat from the Tree of Life.


Anonymous said...

Constance, no one is asking you to leave your beliefs behind. There is no Jewish movement using deception to get Christians to convert. In fact conversion to join the Jewish community is very difficult and discouraged. Jews do not believe Christians need to convert to be at one with God. No one is coming after you so you can relax.


Joyce said...

I want to just add that these "methodologies" which are used to make the gospel appealing are the very ones that will lead to the mixing, and confusion, which in the Bible is called babel. When we know God, we don't want to participate in our "old ways" because He has made us New Creations and the Spirit of God will show us what brings life and what brings death. Our spiritual diet makes a difference.

Torah ( the first 5 books of the Bible) teaches a lot about separation. The word "sanctify" means to set apart. God is Holy, and the fear of Him is the beginning of wisdom, so as we come to leave our old life as slaves and learn His ways we will naturally want to leave all the things that separated us from Him from false religions, the occult, other practices that are unholy. At Passover He delivers us from Egypt, but by Shavuot ( Pentecost) we are at Mount Sinai ready to receive His Word. He has to prepare us to come into the Promised Land.

Torah teaches us that we cannot just come into God's presence any old way, which is why there was the system of offerings, a high priest, etc. God was teaching Ancient Israel, but He was teaching us too!

The Wilderness was training school and all the details in there that many people pass over and find boring to study are loaded with information about our relationship to God. Paul said, in speaking about the generation in the desert:

1Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an aexample, and bthey were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

He also said:

1Cor. 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

Didn't hear Sarah Lesie because I was busy, but I'm guessing these are the subjects of her show and Johanna Michaelsen's. They are teaching people about Biblical separation.

I think we can all think of a recent example, near and dear to us of someone who has not practiced Biblical separation and we know the consequences.
Consequences of sin is death, separation from God.

The subject of his blog has been brought up again, but those subjects can be found on all the other blogs he frequented. They are not original ideas. This is a subculture of folks that dabble in darkness. It's dangerous for them and leads to death and should be a good warning for all of us to draw careful boundaries about what we put in our minds....even in our very well- meaning research. Our minds need to be renewed daily with the truth of Scripture, and we should stay away from spiritual garbage which can lead to destruction.

Someone here accused me of preaching, but after the example of one of our fellow blogsters, I don't think we can be too cautious. God gives us reminders because we need them.

Remembering is an important part of keeping ourselves set apart. God's calendar is an annual cycle that teaches us too, if we pay attention.

Psa. 119:172 Let my tongue sing of Your word,
or all Your commandments are righteousness.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:09 pm

Awesome, thank you.

Inspiring as always.

I have many books for New Age research, I might assume you have most of them but wanted to offer. I need to clear out some space for new material and am wondering if you would be interested? I could put together a list and you could choose whichever you'd like.

Anyone else interrested is welcome, I will give them freely if you want to pay the postage to ship them.


Constance Cumbey said...

Hi Suzette,

Super idea. I should put together a list of my duplicates as well and the other researchers on this blog could share them.


Anonymous said...

For one to convert to any version of Judaism other than Joyce's apparent one, they would have to abandon Jesus. Something that should be unthinkable to any who had ever known Him.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 9:31
Joyce is a Christian. She may be a Jew by birth as one is Irish, German or Brazilian by birth. She is not Jewish by the definition the Jewish community uses.

Understanding this takes us back to the time when Jews lived separately from the larger community, by choice or by force, sharing customs, religious beliefs and identification with the people living around them. Even now there are Jewish neighborhoods as there are minority communities everywhere. People go where they can be comfortable among others like themselves. People who move to the US from let's say Poland will move among other Poles, Polish stores and Catholic churches. Mexicans will tend to move among other Mexicans where there are Mexican stores, Catholic churches.

Now because Christians are a much larger group it is easy to find or travel to Christian churches. It isn't necessary to cluster in as small an area as Jews will cluster in. In addition, even to this day, Orthodox Jews need to live close enough to a synagogue to walk there on the Sabbath, even if the synagogue is several miles away. It is part of the Jewish faith and is recognized as such by Jews.

Joyce can live comfortably almost anywhere there are Christians because that's what she believes. Put her in a Jewish community to live and she would be trying to get them to convert, arguing all of the time because she isn't Jewish. She isn't a Muslim. Put her in a Muslim community, and she would be trying to get them to convert to Christianity. She isn't a Muslim.

Where nationality is concerned, if someone is born in Ireland, they are Irish, religion doesn't matter. It's assumed that a such a person is Catholic. If someone is Irish and Jewish, they will identify as an Irish Jew. If someone is Christian in Israel, they will identify themselves as an Israeli Christian because it is assumed that Israelis are Jews. One does not say they are an Israeli Christian Jew or Israeli Jewish Christian.

When it comes to religion, there are major groupings which members identify with. Jews have one set of beliefs, Muslims follow Islam, Christians hold belief in Jesus in common. There may be differences inside what is held in common by all in that group, but the group stays together bound by what they have in common. There are hundreds, maybe thousands of exotic combinations or cults, but pretty much they stick to themselves and don't pretend to be part of the mainline religions.

Catholics who practice Santaria or voo-doo can't claim to be mainline Christians because by definition they aren't. Swinging a dead chicken inside an Episcopalean church, claiming to be a real Christian just doesn't work. Words meaning whatever the speaker says they are breaks down civilization because we communicate by definitions held in common. Words cannot have contradictory meanings no matter how much someone wants to twist them.

Joyce came out of the Jewish community and went into the Christian community. She cannot have one foot in each religious community as that would be contradictory no matter how much she twists words to say she is. Joyce's religion is not Jewish. She cannot throw thousands of years of Jewish history and theology into the garbage heap just to emotionally satisfy herself and still be taken seriously.


Anonymous said...

I just loves this -

Swinging a dead chicken inside an Episcopalean church, claiming to be a real Christian just doesn't work.


Anonymous said...

I loves this too.

But Dorothy, Rudi sez Joyce is a Jew...so it must be true right? I mean after all Rudi says it's true!!!

Joyce said...

It is sad to see that some here have bought into the myth that a Jew must necessarily be part of rabbinic Judaism or they are not an "authentic Jew". Here is the biblical definition of "Jew" from the Hebrew lexicon. The Hebrew word is Yehudi.

3064. יְהוּדִי Yhuwdiy, yeh-hoo-dee´; patronymically from 3063; a Jehudite (i.e. Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (i.e. Judah):—Jew.

3063. יְהוּדׇה Yehudah [397a]; prob. from 3034; prob. “praised,” a son of Jacob, also his desc., the S. kingdom, also four Isr.:—Jews(1), Judah(815), Judah’s(2).

3064. יְהוּדִי Yehudi [397c]; from 3063; Jewish:—Jew(10), Jewish(4), Jews(60), Jews’(1), Judeans(1).

Now a proselyte is this:

4339. prosh/lutoß proselutos, pros-ay´-loo-tos; from the alternate of 4334; an arriver from a foreign region, i.e. (specially), an acceder (convert) to Judaism (“proselyte”): — proselyte.

This is from a Greek lexicon and applies to "converts to Judaism". This was something that happened in Second Temple Judaism specifically.

Some on the blog have actually helped illustrate Paul's problem with the idea of the Judiazers. These were people that believed one had to enter the community through proselyte conversion i.e. circumcision. Abraham was justified by faith and later performed circumcision, as did Moses. The children of Israel left Egypt uncircumcised.

Because the house of Judah was terribly persecuted by Antiochus Epiphanes, ritual circumcision was thought to be the entry key into the community in the Second Temple period i.e. "ritual conversion" . Paul was not against circumcision per say, but the way it was being misused to "justify" those who had already received the Holy Spirit. Paul's point was justification was through faith in Yeshua the Messiah alone.. Obedience to God's commands was through spiritual maturity i.e. sanctification ( a process) .

Leaving Egypt was an act of God's strong right hand, and later Israel would be brought into the desert and learn to obey. It's the same with us. First salvation then sanctification. If one tries to obey without being a New Creation.. it's as though we are trying to earn our salvation. Salvation is of God, and obedience is the fruit of salvation.


Joyce said...


Unfortunately, failure to understand the historical context of the issue of "works of law" i.e. ritual circumcision for inclusion in the Jewish community has led to many misunderstandings on the part of Christian believers in Yeshua.

Paul's whole point was that through the Holy Spirit when one came to Yeshua, Greek or Jew, there was no more separation. As the person grew in the knowledge of Messiah Yeshua they would learn Torah ( the only Scriptures available in those days were the Tanakh) and grow in obedience to Him, but salvation was of faith, just as in the case of Abraham. ( see Heb. 11 for explanation of justification by faith).

It's a question of order. Once one has faith in Yeshua, they will walk in obedience to His commands and His commands have not changed. In Messiah there is no more separation between Jew and Greek and the Second Temple period as today, some Jews want to believe that the fact of being Jewish justifies them. This is false. It's faith in the Living God and in His washing of our sins that justifies us, from faith flows obedience to His Word.

As for whether Dorothy or anyone else wants to believe I'm a Jew or no, I frankly it doesn't interest me in the least. Yeshua talks about "ritual conversion in the Second Temple period and here's what HE says:

Matt. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

This problem of Second Temple Judaism has continued today. Yeshua said to make disciples ( talmadin in Hebrew) not "ritual proselytes" who would follow rabbinic Judaism, but not God. This is a pretty complicated subject for the blog, but for those of you who believe in Yeshua it's important to understand the context of the Newer Covenant writings or you will misinterpret what was going on in that period.

Shabbat shalom

Joyce said...

One more small point.. The idea that those who follow Torah with all their hearts because they are following the living Torah, Yeshua is done as a means of deception is a misnomer. I am sure there are those that do follow Judaic practices in order to "win people to Yeshua".

Personally, I am opposed to the idea of doing anything deceptively to "win converts" because I cannot "convert" anyone number 1, number 2, what I practice and what I live is out of my own convictions about what the Scriptures say and out of my relationship with Yeshua the Messiah. If someone wants to criticize me for that, let them.. it's not really my problem. I can't please everyone, nor do I try to.


Anonymous said...

Don't forget countries including Israel have germ warfare that is race, even family/group specific and can unleash it at any time, maybe flu vaccines could carry germ warfare??? I don't see the Muslims as a world problem, regionally yes as in Detroit or so I'm hearing.

Muslims in the Arab world rely on bankers and being paid royalties and are not likely to revolt as it would be cutting their own throat. Look what happened when the price of oil went down. Muslims will follow the money and what they preserve is in their best interest.

Keep in mind Muslims are just as lost as anyone else according to the Bible as are those who do not follow or add to God's word and have never been "called" to become a Saint by God.

Christians can be anyone just by attaching the label, but if you are a Saint or follower of Jesus Christ, that sets you more apart. I think it is important the words we use. The word Christian is a big tent and was to my knowledge not in the original text.

Personally I shy away from the term Christian as I don't want to be lumped in with the non christians.

little -k-

Anonymous said...

Did you ever stop to think that in Paul's day would he, or any other follower of Jesus Christ talk about blending and finding the way via or including many idol worshipers. Oh you want to keep blending the weather god with the Bible, no problem...duh.

What a joke, you want to worship Venus, Saturn and Jesus and blend them, I can see Paul doubling up with laughter as would I. It's all or nothing with God of the Bible period.

People who "think" if they do at all, that they can take a smidgen of God here, and a smidgen of God there, and they get to choose, and well, I'm slowing working around to all of the Bible someday, are playing, and being a little god themselves as they see themselves as being greater than God as they "will/are choosing what to believe", sorry, but God chooses his own, just like he chose Paul.

It is a once in a life time moment just like Paul had, but no so dramatic, but you know God is pulling/calling your to Him and you are aware of your sins, of His greatness, and your need of Him, as you say the sinners prayer in true humbleness and repentance.

After your prayer you are totally changed and if not then you weren't called and it was nothing more than an emotional experience like we see on christian TV a spectacle only fit for Hollywood.

Have you watched "Wretched" on christian TV, it's good.

Keep in mind "born again" is in the Bible and if you've never had that once in a life time forever change then its time to start running after God. He knows His own as Jesus said, I know my sheep. Jesus called each of his Disciples, true? God calls. People just don't study, get dipped or sprinkled, they have to be called/chosen by God...look it up.

I believe every word of the Bible, period.


Unknown said...

I want to comment on the Christian grafted-in by “faith in Jesus”-doctrine which was mentioned in a blog comment.

The documented fact that Netzarim, the followers of Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) form Nazareth, were in good standing in the Pharisaic communitiy implies that their teachings didn’t contradicts the Torah-teachings of subordination to a beit-din. The first leader of the beit-din ha-Netzarim was Paqid Ya’aqov ha-Tzadiq, the brother of Ribi Yehoshua. These were the minimum requirements to be included in ha-berit (pact) with ha-Sheim: “Keep yourselves from: 1.“foods over which a blessing has been recited to an image-entity,
2.[meat which has not been made kâsheir of] blood, 3.[meat of] strangled animals, and 4.sexual promiscuity. “ (Quote “Atonement in the New Biblical Covenant”; found in www.netzarim.co.il)”

The requirement of a person who believed Ribi Yehoshua was ha-Mashiakh and wanted to follow his teachings, was that that person should fulfil the above listed mitzwot (commandments), then come before beit-din ha-Netzarim and acknowledge that he would do the sincerest of his/her heart the rest of his/her life to keep Torah non-selectively.

If he did that and the beit-din ha-Netzarim judged that that person observed the minimum requirements, then that person got the status geir-ha-toshav, and was included in ha-berit (the covenant) with ha-Sheim. I.e., he was allowed entrance into the kingdom of the Creator.

The Christian grafted-in by “faith in Jesus”-doctrine ccontradicts Tan’’kh (the Jewish Bible) and the historical record of how the beit-din ha-Netzarim worked (described above) of what was required to join ha-berit (the pact) with ha-Sheim.

Anders Branderud

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