Monday, December 29, 2008
To sum up, Nikki P. argues in the links on her site that "communitarianism" is the moral norm of the new world order.
Communitarianism is essentially the view that the needs/desires of the individual need to be balanced with the needs/desires of the community. (Group think, in the language of "1984"). I agree with that view, and most people would. The problem of course is that in the context of the new world order, controlled secretly by a secret elite aristocracy, truth becomes a tool to control the masses with, which is essentially the argument here.
Do we really need anti-semetism injected to prove that point?
Hegel is often referred to as the author or creator of the principle of "thesis, antithesis, synthesis," which is a way of analyzing the history/development of political views (or philosophical views, depending on the context.) The argument being presented in the Tent Lady's website is that communitarianism is the synthesis of the liberal left and conservative right. The perfect fusion of capitalism and socialism - manufactured secretly by the elites, and being pushed as the philosophical/political moral norms that will drive the governance of the new order being established.
This is quite plausible, IMHO. However, while consistantly drawing negative attention to the Jews (and the Catholics, by the way)she neglects some other more relevant comparisons. On this view, the Obama campaigns "politics of hope" (the synthesis) was "set up" to appear as the perfect solution when contrasted with Bush's unilateralist/individualistic/imperial policies and the far left (which, would presumably be equally unacceptable.)
Perhaps, you can ask her on your show what role she thinks that Obama plays in all this. That is very important.
Regarding the current Israeli conflict in the Gaza Strip:
Prediction: "Self-governing" nations (thesis) will lead to Nuclear war in 2009!!! (anti-thesis) Followed by communitarianism one world government (the synthesis).
Not that hard to put together, but as I've said before the global elite need to be identified accurately so that anti-semetism and anti-monotheism do not continue to grow around the world.
The enemies are New Age pagans, and yes- so of them are undoubtedly self-hating Jews.
Should have read: The enemies are New Age pagans, and yes- some of them are undoubtedly self-hating Jews.
Constance, with all due respect, please read my last comment to Bill 2 threads down about the French Revolution. These elite hate the God of Abraham. Nikki is aiding and abetting the enemy's agenda and raising questions in people's minds about the Jewish people. That's dangerous.
"......the average citizen’s political identity remains stubbornly local. Until somebody cracks this problem......"
Rachman's original Dec. 8 FT article was linked on Drudge which generated an onslaught of "hate" emails to the FT.
Don't miss the author's follow up post:
Great post at 8:46 AM...
Isn't the Communitarian synthesis you described, and Niki Raapana has been talking about, the same thing as the "Radical Middle"?
Over on her blogspot, Raapana now claims "our" Dorothy has been "keeping an eye on Constance" and collecting intel for Mossad. The very idea is certainly intriguing, sure to tickle itching ears, but once again, the motivation behind such accusations are to sow fear and mistrust of all Jews.
Frankly, I really don't care if Dorothy is, or is not, working for Mossad. It makes no difference to me.
I've always been a cynic at heart, but I'm also one of those "last days" nuts who thinks we should be about the business of building up our courage and conviction in order to stand firm in the day of testing.
Whether you agree or disagree with her, Dorothy has certainly exhibited both traits.
My morning reading was Psalm 27, which begins:
"The LORD is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The LORD is the strength of my life; Of whom shall I be afraid?"
Rice: 'This generation' will 'soon thank' Bush
Rice said it won't be long before Bush's contributions to the world will be acknowledged and that recognition of big achievements sometimes take a long time.
I think generations pretty soon are going to start to thank this president for what he's done," Rice said in CBS interview Sunday. "This generation will."
Asked what grade she would give the administration on foreign policy, Rice said some decisions merited an "A-plus" while others "deserve a lot less." But she remained adamant that Bush's central decision to invade Iraq was the right one.
"It's not a popularity contest," Rice said. "It is to lay a foundation for where all this will come out. I know that your business is to report today's headlines and I respect that. But my business is to lay a foundation for history's judgment."
FM spokesman in Tehran: Iran begins preparing operations against Israel
On Monday, Dec. 29, Day 3 of Israel's Gaza operation, the spokesman said Iran had embarked on preparations for operations against Israel in line with the directives laid down by supreme ruler Ayatollah Ali Khameini in his speech Sunday
and while this story is about bringing Israeli leaders up on charges of being war criminals a couple lines popped out at me.
A special message from President Ahmadinejad will also be sent to heads of other countries in this connection.
Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki told reporters at the end of the cabinet session that special envoys would be introduced within the next 48 hours to submit President Ahmadinejad's messages to the heads of other countries
One could speculate for days as to the out come of this, but for now I will simply say that our Lord is wonderfull in all that He does.
Forgive me, but I was a one time county spelling champion (Senior Spelling Champion, Huntington County, Indiana) and am sensitive to misspellings and occasionally do make spelling errors myself.
Secondly, you need to know that one of the more outspoken advocates of computer chip implants has been Amitai Etzioni. In fact, I assumed he was of Italian descent with such a name and an American professor. I have known as long as I have been tracking Javier Solana and global governance that "communitarianism" was the name they were hiding global governance behind. I have known that Mark Satin the author of New Age politics considered it part of his "radical center." Niki and I will no doubt have some interpretation differences -- but she has clearly put the information on communitarianism together much more succinctly and understandably than most others. There were elements I could not make sense of that Niki has. Most important, we are talking and sharing information. Niki is familiar with the Alice Bailey and Blavatsky books and the anti-Jewish themes of same. Just as I did much of my work virtually single-handedly (and with the assistance of Dorothy over the years), Niki has done much of her research alone, unaided and unfinanced. Her evidence deserves examination.
As Jesus said, "take the wheat and leave the chaff."
P.S. You can obtain that broadcast on the MicroEffect.com. If I can pull it down, I will put it in my presentation archives and you will be able to access it from there.
I think you are reading Niki unfairly and wrong. When she is getting attacked from so many sides, she must be doing something right.
I think probably at this point both are angry and shooting from the hip. I would like to see a truce in this one. I have been spied upon, but it was not Dorothy!
Constance, you now feel very secure in letting Joyce rule this blog with her long nonsense posts. You feel secure in having a guest whose views will only lead everyone to Jew hatred if they look for more information on her views. Then there's that other thing which is too long to go into detail about.
Perhaps this is because no one has come on the scene who is attacking you or your research, so you act as if you are sitting on a throne above the arguments of the "little people" who await your crumbs of research.
Well, join the crowd of people here who have been lectured to under your watch. Since this is such an open comments section, I know you won't mind.
I think it's because you are getting tired and just want to live on past glory, hoping all of the followers left stay around to wave palms as you come into the blog occasionally. You liked the attention you got on radio shows and at the talks you gave, so you never worked to develop a group of serious fighters against the New Age movement by name.
You aren't the only one who has spent time, money and energy beyond measure to fight the New Age movement for dozens of years plus. It isn't your battle alone.
So life is hard. You have a profession and a husband who has had the same disability, a serious one, a result of an accident, for the past almost 30 years. He has a job, gets around by himself and is supportive of you.
Life is hard for a lot of the people who post here and do serious research, and I include myself in that group.
Although this is your blog, people come here to learn about the New Age movement because of the serious research you and others have done IN THE PAST.
This blog has turned into one huge joke fight against the New Age movement, and I'm fighting back because I cannot stand to see what I've fought so hard for for so long turned into a baloney pit with no standards.
No serious researcher on any topic lets anyone post whatever garbage they want to in the books they write. No serious researcher lets yahoos stand up during the talks they give and spout whatever comes into their happy little heads. No serious researcher gives credence to every possible theory around no matter how thin the connection to the topic on which they are presumed to an authority.
What you don't seem to understand is that if everything posted here has equal value, then everything may as well have no value, and that includes your research.
GET A SPINE. You had a fine one until just recently. I don't know where you lost it.
"The idea that I have to preach salvation, follow a book I don't trust or go to a church with people I don't respect to "prove" I have a spiritual side is pretty amazing to me. My relationship with my creator is in everything I think and do. I believe our thoughts and deeds are what brings us into harmony with the universe."
Later in the same post she writes:
"When I told him I'm recconecting with the earth's natural electrons he understood it immediately and said "yeah, I always feel better when I walk outside in my bare feet."
The Tent Lady's New Age tendencies of connecting to the earth's electrons and harmonic convergence make Brother Eric's idealogy look wholesome!
In addition to accusing Dorothy of being a member of the Mossad, she makes a point of insulting the Bible as a book she cannot trust.
As some here have tried to point out, communitarianism is definitely part of the Globalist's plan for the NWO and many others have written about it without including such blatantly hostile tendencies towards Jews and Christians.
Many here agree with Nikki that Kabbalism and the Talmud are elements of Judaism that are essential parts of the Ervin Laslo/Jerusalem Academy's plans to convert people to New Age Mysticism. Many of us here also admit that the Rothschild-built structures in Jerusalem are filled with pagan symbols, and that the Fed's system of usury and unchecked power has had a very negative effect of the economy here.
But many of us also realize that the Jews did not write The Protocols of Zion, and that people like Nikki just fan the flames of those who think that they did.
Constance, I hope you won't regret your decision to align with this person somewhere down the road.
There are various ways used to spell the concept. The hyphenated way stopped being used because the argument arose that Jews aren't the only people with a Semitic heritage, and that Semites couldn't be anti themselves.
"Antisemitism (alternatively spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism; also rarely known as judeophobia) is prejudice against or hostility toward Jews as a group. The prejudice or hostility is usually characterized by a combination of religious, racial, cultural and ethnic biases. While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, since its creation it has been used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews."
"The term Semite refers broadly to speakers of a language group which includes both Arabs and Jews. However, the term antisemitism refers specifically to attitudes held towards Jews."
Thank you for drawing attention to my spelling. As I've said many times before- I am stupid, and never had the privilege to attend college as some here have done. Please excuse me for that. (thanks Dorothy for the additional spelling clarification).
I happened to be on a plane Thursday night so excuse me for that, too. I am glad that the subject of Obama came up on your broadcast.
Not long ago I left a comment here about a map that showed how the world was divided into ten political/economic regions back in 1974 by Club of Rome founder Aurelio Peccei. I mentioned that I thought that the 10 leaders that will come out of the these "Kingdoms" will be the 10 horns of the Beast of Revelation13. I used Gary Kah as a source of the map information.
Suddenly it was as though the wrath of hell opened up and descended upon me. You told me how anti-Semitic Gary Kah was because he used Eustace Mullins, a known Jew-hater, as a source in his bibliography for some of his info about the CFR. I realize that Kah is one of those evangelicals that you've exposed in your work, but nonetheless he still had much valuable information in his book, just as Nikki has valuable information on her site.
But I think you must make up your mind whether you want to hold up the same standard with Nikki that you've held up with Kah in order for dumb people like me to make sense of your standards.
I'd love for you to read the book "The Armageddon Conspiracy" by Mike Hockney. It may help you realize why I found her site so alarming.
All that being said, I'm off to paint. Never quite sure why I try to contribute here....
I have a spine and I am counting to ten on some of your posts. "Glory" "attention" "sit on your throne" -- you must know something I don't.
I am not succumbing to your pressures to throw Joyce off this site just as I have resisted similar pressures in the past to do likewise to you.
I am glad it is God who is judging me. I'm not perfect. Neither are you. Neither is Joyce. Neitheer is Niki. But we all have valuable contributions as well as irritable distractions.
I think that some of the animosity building on this site would be eliminated if we read carefully (and re-read carefully) instead of shooting from the hip, as Constance has so aptly put.
I, for one, have read enough of the arguments on both sides of the Joyce/Dorothy (or Dorothy/Joyce) debate that I don't even bother with it now. I see what it is and scroll over it.
Now we are starting a new Dorothy/Nikki/Constance debate.
A mature reader should understand that opinions expressed on this blog do not necessarily reflect the views of the owner or other bloggers. Perhaps such a statement is necessary.
And if a contrary view is expressed, I don't mind a little discussion. Healthy debate is just that--healthy. We need to look at all sides of an issue.
But incessant arguing and haranguing is unnecessary. Can we agree to disagree and then move on? Demeaning language (such as "Get a spine!") is not only poor taste, but says more about the poster, than the one being spoken to.
Can we be honorable, professional, and courteous even in our disagreements?
It has been suggested on a previous thread that disagreements be aired privately through email. Perhaps when disagreements arise, those interested in joining the debate can offer their emails so that the debaters can add them to a cc list. But PLEASE, keep the rest of us out of your wrangling.
We're really not interested--on either side.
I have highly valued the information from this site and hope that it can go on without the aforementioned argumentation (just trying out a little "legalese" here ;) )
May Yahweh God give you guidance and Yashuah give you the peace that passes understanding as you continue to work at this most important endeavor as well as trying to live your other life as lawyer and wife. My prayers are with you and all who are engaged in this battle.
Good. Now you can start to learn how others feel when being lectured to day after day, month after month by "well-meaning" people.
It didn't bother you when I was slandered all over the internet in the past by Raapana's crowd because I exposed that little nest. I was just supposed to suck it up. Standing up against Jew haters is serious business and I paid the price more than once.
I've unconditionally supported you and your research since you first began, even before your first book came out.
Now back to Raapana. Apparently there is a huge body of information on the movement called communitarianism.
I truly wonder how there could be such a large pro and con discussion about the topic without ever mentioning her name. Ask her what has she accomplished in her fight against it. Have any serious, neutral researchers used her information and put it in their bibliographies? I think she just latched on to the huge amount of information about a movement in order to further her other agenda. It's a pretty wide horse to ride.
I look forward to seeing whether you just give her a platform or whether you challenge her set of ideas and tactics. It isn't enough for her to pretend wide-eyed wonder about what is going on in the world.
Very off-topic, but a little something to "lighten" up a bit.
Spanish Town is a small city in Jamaica. I spent 5 years in Jamaica with my family as a missionary. My children who were quite young at the time played with the local children of course. Jamaican children have a playground rhyme "Yes Na Spanish Town, Mama's gonna knock you upside down..." It's roughly the equivalent of our "Nanny, nanny boo-boo, you're gonna get it!" When my now adult children set up an IM identity for me to communicate with one of them who was living abroad at the time, they chose YesNaSpanishTown as a joke on me. I like it. It tells me that I still have influence in their lives.
Many blessings to you all!
YesNaSpanishTown (or Terri in Penna.)
"To Anonymous 1:59 p.m.
Shades of the New Age published and backed "Bro Eric," the awful person who suggested murdering all Catholic priests.
I want nothing more of this type of suggestion! I read about it yesterday but only now wading through the most recent comments on found it -- this smacks only of the Armageddon Script plans as enunciated by Peter LeMesurier (1981 and beyond) to finish us off by dividing us.
Good to see some moral fibre starting to sprout from you in regard to the contents of some of the posts that appear on your blog.
I'd like to direct your attention to Joyce's posts. They are most hateful and slanderous against both the Jewish faith and the Catholic faith. She is managing to draw a lot of the Evangelicals here into her hate campaign all under the guise of "the Bible."
Joyce has not suggested throwing Jews and Catholics into a FEMA camp but, as you know, Nazism started with ideas targeting specific groups. Ideas led, very swiftly, to action. And we know how the story ended.
You need to take a look at what this woman is writing on your blog, and take a stand.
If I didn't admire your brilliance and your courage, and the integrity which has been your distinct trademark, I would not bother to take the time here to point out to you that in this instance, with this particular person, you are way way way off base in your assessment of her motives. You have a first-class legal mind--use it here.
Please note: Joyce is NOT advocating disrespect, hatred, or slander toward Catholic people or Jewish people. Her hatred and slander are directed toward the CATHOLIC FAITH and the JEWISH FAITH. You are an expert on the origins and goals of the New Age movement, so I will leave that point with you.
Joyce's words speak for themselves. Sometimes even the most intelligent, caring, and perceptive among us need to be hit over the head in order to see the obvious. Consider this post my "plonk" for the day.
Thanks for the link on Raapana from "Jewish Tribal Review."
I got taken in by that website a couple of weeks ago. I was conducting some research on the Jewish immigrant experience (not New Age related at all) and googled my way over to it. I started to read and it was fascinating -- sociology, history, social history, etc.
Then I started clicking around. Within a few minutes I realized I was on a very slick anti-semitic disinformation site that I had thought initially was a serious academic journal.
Evil is very subtle and very seductive.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth - Oscar Wilde
I only answered Susanna after her third request. I was actually not eager to enter into a discussion about Catholic doctrine, but since she insisted I did.
After three requests, I figured she really wanted to hear, so I told her what I thought based on the Scriptures..Now when Susanna asked me, she already knew darn well where I stand on Catholic doctrine, so this wasn't a real scoop to her.
Let me also correct your wording.. I don't hate a faith..I might disagree with it, and disagree strongly, but hate is not really a word in my vocabulary to be honest with you..Am I the only one with strong opinons here? Hard to believe..
It is preferable in my opinion that differences can be expressed in a civil manner rather than do the Alliance of Civilzations thing and pretend we are all in agreement. I find that rather fake,and besides that it's not something I do well.. sorry.
I can like someone regardless of their belief system, so I don't see differences as hatred. It's not a contradiction for me to love a certain people and be totally at odds with their beliefs...I genuinely love my people, the Jewish people even though there are many things I disagree with. Yeshua wept over His people, but He loved them. That should not be too difficult to understand. If you tell me that you agree with everyone, I think you're lying.. Some of us are just more outspoken about our difference of opinion.
I don't have even an ounce of hatred for Dorothy, Susanna, Len or anyone else on the blog... now they might have some for me, but I'll leave that problem with them.. A long time ago I learned that hatred and bitterness are cancer that kill and besides that my Messiah liberated me from all of that...a prerequisite to being forgiven is to forgive.
Don't worry, I'm not planning on starting the third Intifada, but you might want to pray because Hamas is.. and to be honest with you, that is a much greater concern to me than some of the petty garbage I hear on this blog..
There is quite a bit going on in the world, so the Scriptures should not be a threat, but a comfort.
Joyce claims she has Jewish friends who practice Judaism. Ron called her bluff the other day, and this is what she said:
That was awfully nice of you to give your name, but I don't think it would be wise of me to send my Jewish friends to this blog. If your a smart fella, you should be able to figure that out..
Hmmmm...doesn't sound too kosher to me, what do you all think?
I don't want to question Joycé's intentions or anything like that which is why I am posting the question again for her attention but it sounds like she is avoiding answering the question.
I would like to hear her side of the story, it was probably just a misunderstanding.
If I say something against the Catholic Church, I am saying it as someone who knows it from the inside and has been set free from it.
This is the kind of cr*p Joyce posts regularly on your blog when you are busy trying to run your law practice.
She never apologizes for it, in fact it just escalates, so the question of "forgiving others their sins" doesn't come into the picture I'm afraid!
What CAN one do with an unrepentant bigot?
"Niki is reporting honestly her perceptions and observations."
OLDMANOF THE SKI WRITES:
"Over on her blogspot, Raapana now claims "our" Dorothy has been "keeping an eye on Constance" and collecting intel for Mossad. The very idea is certainly intriguing, sure to tickle itching ears, but once again, the motivation behind such accusations are to sow fear and mistrust of all Jews."
According to Raapana and Joyce Jews have created the New Age movement and would want to destroy work against it. No Jewish organization has ever slandered Constance or her work. The damage been done by Christians. Unfortunately the Jewish community pretty much just ignores her.
Maybe Mossad is really a secret Christian organization. Maybe Joyce works for Mossad as she is always talking about "her people" and is really a Christian.
I am reporting honestly my perceptions and observation regarding Mossad I tell you. Don't doubt me. Like words coming from Raapana and Obama, it may not be the truth, but it's how I remember it so I don't have to prove it.
Thank God a lot of people reading here have common sense and street smarts.
Anyway, Constance has mentioned many different names for the New Age Movement listed in her books. Communitarianism just may be another name or shade of the same thing. Well, I better stop before my attention
Buber, Etzioni, and others who share their views are Zionists and in some cases, they are also Jewish, but I know for a fact that when Niki refers to them, she is addressing their Zionism, not their Jewishness.
In my opinion, its a very small mind which cannot wrap itself around this obvious and verifiable truth.
Zionism, the New Age, and Communitarianism are cozy bedfellows, and I have documented that fact beginning with Zionism and New Age Communitarianism
The Dialectic is also relevant to any discussion of these topics, and I have written what I believe to be the only update on the simple theory of thesis-anti-thesis-synthesis since the process came into use. I have identified four distinctive phases in the process, not just the three commonly known. I have explained why the fourth phase was not known until now, and why that particular 'ignorance' was essential to their success. Its titled "The Dialectic Tetrad and the "Third Organization of Society". There is a new update on the forty phase, so be sure to find it at the bottom of the page.
"continental government for 27 countries" might go global.
1.) The most difficult issues each individual country is confronted with, being,global warming, global financial crisis, global war on terror, are international.
These issues affecting one country affect all. Pushing national governments towards global solutions.
2.) "Global Governance" is possible because of modern technology.
3.) The "change" that has occurred (paradigm shift) in the political atmosphere, especially in the areas of the "financial crisis" and "climate change"
Most Interesting to me, the writer of the article, when he begins to discuss Barack Obama, first points out the difference between Barack Obama and the Bush administration. He quotes from "The Audacity of Hope" where Obama writes,
“When the world’s sole superpower willingly restrains its power and abides by internationally agreed-upon standards of conduct, it sends a message that these are rules worth following.”
Then article writer, Gideon Rachman, says,
"The importance that Mr Obama attaches to the UN is shown by the fact that he has appointed Susan Rice, one of his closest aides, as America’s ambassador to the UN, and given her a seat in the cabinet."
Rachman goes on in the article to clearly draw the same conclusions and obviously related
"Managing Global Insecurity" report from The Brookings Institute, as noted by Constance
in several previous blog articles. Two of the more recent blogs on this topic can be found in the archives here. Please see: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 and Tuesday, July 29, 2008. -Rudi
Link to Financial Times website with the article:
As various issues have come up, I have written about them. My hubby passed my discoveries to the pastor. I also had one in depth conversation with him.
All through this time, I have known that, while he ( Sr. Pastor) gives verbal encouragement to me, he is by and large either ignoring or opposing the information that I give him. I will not go into detail as to the remarks he has made from the pulpit on Sunday mornings, but he has postitively referenced such things as us (body of Christ) being change agents, acheiving concensus, sharing a ancient mystic that greatly impacted his life as a teenager, for example.
Today, I am writing you to ask for prayer. I would also like either your advice or for you to point me to someone who can take some time to advise me.
Yesterday, in his Sunday morning sermon, the senior pastor continued his sermon series on Samson. In it he positively referenced Rick Warren and his global P.E.A.C.E. plan. He even referenced the fact that many fundamentalist Christians opposed Warren, but that he admires him and supports him. Although, by way of caveat, he stated that at this time, he would not be joining Warren's programs, he then spent about 10-15 minutes preaching Rick Warren.
This morning I clicked on Fulfilled Prophecy and listened to the speech Warren recently gave to the Muslim Public Affairs Council. I nearly jumping out of my skin. My pastor preached the end of Warren's speech--nearly word for word. I then checked MPAC and its Islamic connections (not to mention I am well aware of the other Warren issues). I am livid. I am beside myself for what our pastor has just opened up to the sheep at our church.
I called my husband at the office and asked him to set up an appointment with our senior pastor before Sunday. I cannot, as a pastor's wife sit in another church service without speaking up. My presence in the service gives silent assent to everything he says.
My "dilemma", if you will, is that this affects our relationship with the church, obviously. My husband is not 100% on board with my beliefs, although he is sympathetic. To not attend church with my husband would be an obvious breach of faith with the church and not tolerable to the elders and pastoral staff. Yet, to continue in the pew without speaking out is something I cannot do before my Lord and my God.
In some ways I feel like an Esther or Shadrach, Meschiach, & Abednego. If I perish, I perish. If I'm thrown into the fire of unemployment and God doesn't rescue me, oh well, I will not bow my knee to this apostasy. (Our salary has already been lowered due to the economy and low offerings). Yet, I do not want to do anything that would be construed into manipulating my husband into something he is not yet ready to do.
I need prayer. I am reminded that when God healed Naaman, the general, by Elisha, he vowed to worship the Lord God of Israel. But he also told Elisha, "In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing. 19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way." 2 Kings 5:18,19
I am not looking for an excuse or a "way out". I need to walk in wisdom, and am looking for mature Christians to pray for me. If I use the principal of 2 Kings and continue at our church, I cannot keep silent. It is not a pagan king that I am serving. I serve a living Savior in a church that is supposed to be preaching His word.
Great job on the pre-broadcast research on Niki. Is that really you? Your backbone is in VERY good shape from what I can read at this blog. I know it's been giving you trouble in your "real life" and I hope it FEELS as good and strong as it looks here! ;-)
I need some help if any of you can. When I was initially researching, I found the Jan. 8, Philadelphia Inquirer article in which Warren states that Christian fundamentalism will be an enemy of the 21st century.
When I google for it, and click on the Inquirer link, I am unable to access it. Does anyone have that interview cached?
You are welcome to email it to me at firstname.lastname@example.org
Thanks so much and many blessings!
First and foremost I will be praying for you, your husband and your pastor regarding your up coming meeting. Someone who may be able to help or advise you in what you are experiencing with your pastor and church is Pastor Jeff Wittaker. Pastor Wittaker has been a guest on Constance's radio program the most recent of which was on Friday, October 24th, 2008. He relates in great detail on the Michiana Christian Embassy
website from his own personal journey when he began to question troubling developments occurring with-in his own denomination beginning in 2005. It is a long detailed account but well worth the read. Also through the site it is possible to email him. The first link below will take you to
the "Disaffiliation and Dismissal Letters" detailing what occurred.
In spite of what you are experiencing, be encouraged, you are not alone. -Rudi
"Disaffiliation and Dismissal Letters"
Michiana Christian Embassy
"If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 1 Peter 4:11-13
You have my prayers.
If you have time, you should get straight over to Ingrid Schleuter's website, Slice of Laodicea (Constance links to it). She has a TREASURE TROVE of "interesting" information about Rick Warren and some shall we say "unusual" personal dealings with one of his "key supporters", Richard Abenes.
Ingrid has many articles and links to colleagues who are doing similar work exploring and exposing Warren.
Get over there if you can, and email her if you can. Ingrid is a very bright lady, and I suspect a very kind and caring one as well.
I am wondering if you are in an Assembly of God church? I was in an AOG church outside of Philly for about 10 years after I left the Catholic church. In fact, we did a prayer devotional for 40 days using Warren's book. Maybe Warren was OK then-it was a while back- maybe money corrupted him. I just don't know.
I have tried many times over the past months to warn my own small bible church about Todd Bentley and others. Every time I bring up concerns about associations with certain people that I consider teaching heretical things, I am rebuffed or warned "lovingly" of the fact that Jesus commanded us to have respect for authority.
I have to mentally say , "Bull cr*p!"
I am only staying in this church because I am hoping I can be of some help when things really start to get ugly and people become confused. So I understand what you are going through.
I just want to say that although some may call me an evangelical I consider myself pretty much a loner in terms of a declared faith.
It was very upsetting for me to come to terms with all this, (about my church), and that doesn't even count the fact that I almost had a nervous breakdown when I originally made the decision to leave the Catholic church, as I was convinced I would go to hell. So when we face certain truths about our familiar faiths, we become very uncomfortable, and many go into denial rather than believe that their church is false in its teachings. That is why I appreciate Joyce so much.
I began reading the Old Testament after reading The Armageddon Conspiracy, because it tore apart scripture and turned it upside down-perverting everything I'd thought I'd known. I wanted to find out for myself if the horrible God depicted in that book was the same God I had been worshiping for so many years. That's why I began reading the Old Testament, and although I may not understand the Jewish faith the way Dorothy and Len understand it, Joyce has truly helped me mesh The Old Testament together with my own beliefs that arose from reading the New Testament and accepting Jesus as my personal savior years ago.
This is also why I feel so distressed by what's going on here at this blog. The Alliance of Civilizations would take every one of us- Catholics- Jews-Messianics-Evangelicals- you name it- and gladly feed us to the lions for being religious extremists if they were capable of doing it today.
I will pray for you tonight. You may need to leave your church. It's happening to many of us. Perhaps it's meant to be this way because I believe that the church is not an institution, but the love we hold in our hearts for Jesus/Yeshuah.
Actually, I liked The Shack for that reason- it took all the religious-gobbledy gook out of God and replaced it with an entity that is pure love, forgiveness and redemption. Okay, I know I am going to get into trouble for saying that, but I'm already on the black list here for being Joyce's friend and challenging Constance, so whatever. I realize the book had many flaws but in a day where we can freely download a book like The Armageddon Conspiracy off the Internet, a book like The Shack will probably do more good than harm for secular people who don't practice anything anyway.
All that being said, I'll pray for your meeting tomorrow. Just ask the Holy Spirit to speak for you and don't worry about it.
To anonymous 4:35-
Thanks for the concern. My back is still bothering me quite a bit, but less so than before Christmas. I am going to see a doctor about it.
"Over on her blogspot, Raapana now claims "our" Dorothy has been "keeping an eye on Constance" and collecting intel for Mossad. "
Please tell me you lifted this from the Onion....
My prayers are with you and your husband. This type of falling away is becoming an issue in many of the churches here locally as well. I don't know your denomination, but from what I am seeing and hearing locally it is a growing issue across the board. I have expected this to come to the forefront, just wasn't expecting for it to occur this rapidly.
Please keep us updated with how things pan out. Be bold in your faith and be prepared to go where ever He leads you.
OldMan DIDN'T lift it from the Onion. It's for real!
Quick everyone, get over to the Niki Raapana blog:
It's hysterical! Dorothy and Maryanne are being gossiped about and disparaged, Dave gets a mention. She even thinks Dorothy has guns!
Ya just can't make this stuff up, folks, really you can't...
I don't wish to increase your anxiety, but there may be a grain of truth to Warrens comments about Christian Fundamentalism becoming an enemy soon. If you follow the links I give, you will find that Fundamentalism is a strategic plot of the British Commonwealth to function in a dialectic with Communism. But since communism is dead, the role of fundamentalism has shifted some to a more proactive role in adopting the New Age Unity agenda. Like all such strategies, when its finished, it will be assimilated if possible. If not, it will be abandoned, dismantled, or destroyed by some means. Some may argue that the destruction has already begun. Your pastor has likely seen the writing on the wall, and he's going with the flow.
You need to know about The Powers Behind The Alpha Course,
Once you have reviewed that information, The Union Jack will make a lot more sense to you.
The Union Jack In Context of the New Age,
There is a later update here...
Update on The Union Jack in context of the present situation
The Pilgrim Society figures large in what is going on generally, and you will find a lot of information on them on my website. My E-mail Index is a good place to start.
Ken Silva is a pastor who works closely with Ingrid Schlueter. He's written extensively on Warren. I think he's in your neck of the woods (sorta), CT or NH.
You might want to get a hold of him and see if he could share some of his experiences with you:
I sympathize with your situation an no doubt others do as well. A lot are in "iffy" job situations down to reasons in the economy but also sometimes because of ethical dilemmas. It is a difficult situation all right, but you have been given some very sound advice here. No doubt you and your husband will come through this stronger and with a deeper faith - whatever the result.
Hope that makes sense.
Welcome to the blog Bobby. I did notice at Niki's blog she states she has a "collaborative and supportive relationship" with you.
As has been note above, Niki also says Dorothy is working for Mossad.
Are you Niki's friend?
If so, this leads me to another question: are you an agent for Mossad?
I just wanted to say that although Rick Warren seems to be leaning towards the side of "peace" he also continues to preach Jesus as Messiah as the Saviour and as God. (by the way Jesus spoke of peace many times during His ministry).
I think that there is a lot of hysteria surrounding the subject of Rick Warren and his decision to pray at Obama's inauguration as well as be involved in the "p.e.a.c.e" project.
Yes, we need to keep an eye on this project and not compromise our faith in Jesus Christ being the ONLY way to God the Father. But I do think that the objective of this project is actually a good thing and could help many all over the world. Rick Warren is basically saying that as Christians we have a huge impact in the world as missionaries, etc... and we should use this position to help those who are victims of a.i.d.s, famine, and other major problems as well as (most importantly) bring the Gospel of Jesus to those who need it.
We should test everything against scripture and also have confidence that God will reveal Truth to those who need it.... in His own time.
I'm not saying to stand by while actual heresy is being taught in your church but I really feel strongly that Rick Warren isn't teaching heresy.
As Christians we are called to care for the sick, feed the hungry and most of all bring the Gospel of Jesus to all who will listen.
Ask the Holy Spirit to guide your thoughts through this process and I pray that you and your husband would be united on the most basic and the most important facts. That Jesus is Lord and Saviour of all! And that anything that gets in the way of this is chaff in the wind.
From the Niki Raapana website, comment by Bobby Garner under the Cumbey thread:
"...I'm very disappointed that Constance tolerates Zionist shills on her blog, embracing them even as "highly esteemed contributors". Perhaps Dorothy is right that "Constance will do what she wants to do", with a little help from her "highly esteemed contributors". In the movie Braveheart, the Nobel's reveal their secret of control. Compromise."
Birds of a feather....
The three articles and comments following found on this blog are indicative of how people talk to each other at cross purposes on the topic of one world government. Each group assumes that others are working with the same set of facts when most of the time it isn't so.
If Rachman had read any Eurosceptic literature, he might have understood how intelligent individuals would oppose the a world government. That does not mean he could be convinced by individuals who were opposing it for other reasons.
What appears a confrontation between individuals characterized as "arrogant elitist" types or "crackpot types" takes place all of the time.
I'm the anon who sent you to Ingrid and Silva. Following on from Gretchen's post, however, I don't want to demonize Warren. Reasonable minds do seem to differ on him (as you seem to be seeing at your church).
He is discussed a lot at the excellent discussion board, Rapture Ready. It's a very active board, and you might get a more balanced view by perusing some of their Warren threads:
What church do you attend? I am interested in getting together with others who see whats happening in my area.
Although the New Agers usually mention me as their opposition, many Evangelical and Catholic writers plainly using my material seldom do. Usually the more on target one is the more reluctant those playing the games of silencing you are to cite you as a source. That is something I understand completely.
I did not know until this morning that Niki had mentioned you in her blogspot.
Ken is a pastor as well, and he will be compassionate regarding your specific circumstances. Email him, mark it urgent, and I assure you that he will respond with timeliness.
My prayers are with you.
By His Grace,
Gnostic Liberation Front
As I said, if one wants to follow Raapana's leads, this is what you'll find. Not the only one.
Serious research? I don't think so. Maybe others here do.
Statements of disagreement with various doctrines of various religions are not the same as personal attacks. I am seeing plenty of personal attacks to go around.
Time for all players to grow up and behave as adults! Saying one is too simple to understand Judaism, to understand Messianic Judaism, to understand Catholicism, to understand Evangelical and/or Fundamentalist Christianity is a personal insult. Stating your perceptions and disagreements with said teachings are not.
Herescope has posted extensive articles examining the blatant heresy within the writ of "The Shack". Swallowing a little deception here and a smidgen of heresy there leads to the inability to discern a broad scope of fallacy.
I caution you because I care.
I just spent the last semester going toe-to-toe (so to speak) with my Women's Ministry because they decided to make a Women's "Bible Study" out of this ridiculous material.
"O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge- by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith." I Timothy 6:20,21a
By His Grace,
Yes, I've unfortunately read this book. Just so I have a legit right to speak regarding it.
In Him Always,
Most of us here are well aware of the term Zionist and are capable of wrapping our small minds around the idea that Zionism and Judaism are separate. That being said, I believe that the knowledge that you are promoting is a conspiracy inside a bigger conspiracy, and you are leading people in the wrong direction in terms of who the enemy really is.
I hope some people here will take the time to read this link, which is from The Armageddon Conspiracy website and is entitled, "For us or Against Us?"
This site gives many clues into the book, which is totally demonic, so that you don't need to read the book itself to see where it's going. It identifies the Jews (and the Christian/Catholic Church) and their God (my God!) as part of the Old World Order that needs to be destroyed, because the god of Abraham is actually Satan. The group freely admits to being the Illuminati that started the French and American Revolution, (did anyone read the Wiki link on Cult of Reason that I left last night?) and freely admits that Hitler is a type of hero to them and that they believe that Lucifer is the True God's most beloved angel.
There is no doubt among many of us here that there were evil people down through history that have caused a great deal of grief and harm to others, and that includes all manner of people- including Jews, Christians, Moslems and Catholics who have gone to "the dark side" so to speak. But there is a conspiracy afoot that is playing out here to place most if not all the blame on the Zionists, which would include me I suppose, since I am a believer in God's promise of a homeland to his chosen people. This conspiracy within a conspiracy , I think, is the ultimate conspiracy, and what I meant yesterday when I said that it's just going to make it harder to see the truth through the fog in the days ahead.
Just my dumb thoughts.
I appreciate your concern. As I stated earlier I am not advocating the book. I'll repeat what I said earlier:
I'm not advocating it as reading material- just saying that there are times when the religious structures that house people's faiths are a great deal worse than a piece of fiction.
I know of a Methodist church in Michigan where they celebrate the solstices and Earth Day and have a Rosicrucian cross with the elements of earth, wind and fire around it. Since they call themselves a church, they are more guilty of deceit than a book that calls itself fiction. Just as Constance used a stricter form of judgment on Christian Gary Kah, than she did on New Agey Nikki.
That's what I meant. I did not know that Herescope had written what it did about the book when I bought it. I was looking for a quick read to counter balance my intense dislike of flying. So don't worry about me- I've not allowed the devil into my home.
What did you think of The Chronicles of Narnia , by the way? To me, it was just that- a work of fiction that used religious iconography to tell a story of redemption, similar to what The Shack tried to do. If it's taken as anything more than fiction- well that's a big problem.
OK, Niki is an anti-Semite, and I'm a Massod agent running a conspiracy advising everyone to believe nothing, and learn everything you can about deception and its most powerful weapon, persuasion which causes belief.
I also have published some about the importance of resolving contradictions.
I only answered Susanna after her third request. I was actually not eager to enter into a discussion about Catholic doctrine, but since she insisted I did.
After three requests, I figured she really wanted to hear, so I told her what I thought based on the Scriptures..Now when Susanna asked me, she already knew darn well where I stand on Catholic doctrine, so this wasn't a real scoop to her.
That is not quite how things played out Joyce as anyone can see by going back two threads to the one for Tuesday, December 23, 2008 entitled TONIGHT MAY WELL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT SHOW I HAVE EVER DONE.
On this thread you wrote:
There is one very big problem in Susanna applauding Len's posts and his explanation of Kabbalah even though she neatly uses it to justify Catholic tradition being added to the Scriptures:
"That is more than I can say about you who still worhips your messiah in spite of HIS failures."
Perhaps Susanna didn't see this quote from Len...I'm not trying to start anything here, just understand what Catholics think about Jews bashing Yeshua...
There is another very big problem with adding tradition to Scripture and that is the Scripture itself condemns it:......
......Of course if we leave room for the manmade traditions we can justify about anything. Glancing briefly at the article Susanna posted that talks about Evangelicals who don't mind the added traditions...I agree that this is happening within the Emergent Church. It is a paradigm shift indeed and not necessarily a good one. I think it is also part of the ecumenic deception that is going on. The Bible speaks about the deception of the Last Days so.. ...
....... agree that a segment of the Evangelical world seems to have amnesia with regards to the Reformation. The problem with the Reformation is that it did not go far enough. We should no longer just be "protesting" against Catholicism, but returning to the Scriptures. If you faith starts at the Protestant Reformation...you will always look at Scripture through the grid of "Protesting against Catholicism".....
....It's not surprising that there would be Catholic support for oral tradition and other mystical traditions, since this would affirm their claim to be the ones that hold "the keys to the kingdom".
It's like taking one lie to prove another lie is correct.
This is how YOU started the debate, Joyce, as anyone can see who read that partuicular thread. I am not the first one who talked about "lying" either.
Did you think that you would be able to get away with sweeping things under the rug by carting your version of how the debate got started over to this thread???
My response to you now is the same as it was THREE TIMES on the previous thread:
Until you can quote me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish" Rule of Faith there is nothing you can say that will convince me that your Rule of Faith is the correct one because your argument regarding your Rule of Faith stands or falls on whether or not you can find it CLEARLY STATED in the Bible.
This was not my "third request." This was my THIRD CHALLENGE which, by the way, you have not been able to answer.
Oh yes, you have done plenty of filibustering but you have not quoted me the passage from the Sacred Scriptures that CLEARLY STATES that the "Bible only" ("Sola Scriptura") is to be the Christian/"Messianic Jewish" Rule of Faith.
If you don't want to enter into a discussion about Catholic doctrine, then you would be well-advised to avoid starting said discussion by keeping your little Catholic-baiting criticisms to yourself.
Luke 12:11-12 KJV
I have said a prayer for you of strength, "being still," and that you "believe in God, believe also in Me [Him]."
I am not anonymous 5:58. I always use my moniker Young_grasshopper, though sometimes I forget which blog I'm on and accidently sign in here under Paintdancer, which has nothing at all to do with anything other than dancing with paint.
I did not call Nikki an anti-Semite, and I did not accuse you of being a Mossad agent.In fact, I said that there is very good information on her blog about the Hegelian Dialect and communitarianism, just as there is on yours, too. However, Nikki did call Dorothy a Mossad agent and Nikki does have anti-Semitic material on her blog.
I did read your link:
The Powers behind the Alpha Course, and although there is a great deal wrong with William Branham and the Kansas City Prophets I do not believe they are tied to Madame Blavatsky and occultic powers. I have seen powerful miracles in my own church and the casting out of demons in which I once saw a young man thrown backwards 5 feet. I knew the young man personally as he was the son of a friend and I knew he was very much into demonic activity and was contemplating suicide. He was completely fine after he was exorcised using the power of the Holy Spirit. You can believe it or not. It's a true story. I think it is highly unlikely that God would leave us without a Holy Spirit who can help us have armour against demonic influences. JD here has used that power of the Holy Spirit to cast demons out of his own house recently. I believe that. On your link you said the following:
"(2) Nicky(not the Tent Lady Nikki) prefers not to pray “for” the Holy Spirit, but “to” the Holy Spirit, thus rebelling against the clear ordinance of Scripture. (This issue is covered properly in our book.) Attempting to approach or invoke God in ways other than those which He has commanded in Scripture is something He curses, rather than blesses with His Spirit (see Lev. 10:1-2; 1 Sam. 28,31; 1 Chr. 13 & 15 etc)."
I respectfully disagree with you there. I do not pray "for" the Holy Spirit. Why in the world would he need my prayers? I do pray to Him so I guess I'm cursed in your book of Knowledge.
One more thing about The Shack.
What I said about liking the book demonstrates something. It demonstrates that if we alter our standards to a lower level, we create opportunities for evil to take hold. SV picked up on that and I was surprised that others didn't add to what she said.
I talked about the book on a different thread. I said it was dreadfully boring and that the Holy Ghost liked fractals. I went into a serious discussion about crystals and fractals on that thread, as the New Age connections were quite apparent to me.
Yep. Real good stuff. Just like all the anti-Semitism that's been allowed a foothold on this blog. Hope I made my point.
Here's a link to Berit Kjos analysis of the Narnia Chronicles (this particular link delves into Prince Caspian). Her in depth look into the divination, magic, and myths that are cunningly weaved into the plotline of this fiction series is brilliantly studied and written.
Her conclusion is very relevent to our discussions here regarding the dialectic process:
"Lewis knew how to make pagan fantasy sound like Christian reality. One key to his success is the dialectic process, the formula is simple: Truth (thesis) + myth, opinion or suggestion (antithesis) = a new worldview (synthesis). In this evolving process, even Christian children are drawn away from their Biblical foundations.
This is spiritual warfare, and God gave us His Armor for such a time as this. Let's train our children to put it on -- and wear it every day."
This is precisely my objection to the methodology used in the fiction book, "The Shack". The designated outcome is to create confusion, blending truth with lie wrapped around a potent emotional tale that will "open hearts and minds" to fallacy.
Satan isn't known as a slithering, slimey snake of deception for nothing.
Link to article:
Just my thoughts on this subject.
By His Grace,
I'm beginning to wonder about your reading and comprehension skills.
You didn't even post at 5:58 did you. I've checked again and I'm quiet certain that the 5:58 post was by anonymous.
The quote about praying for the holy spirit versus praying to the holy Spirit, is not mine. Nonetheless, perhaps I can help. The idea of praying for the Holy Spirit is in the sense of asking for its aid and support, whereas praying to to Holy Spirit is asking the Holy Spirit directly for help. The Bible does not support prayer addressed to anyone but the "Father in heaven", whereas the Alpha Course recommends prayer addressed to the Holy Spirit. Alleged Christians are so unfamiliar with the Bible that many of them are unable to defend themselves from this onsluaght, as the record testifies if you investigate it.
I have no problem believing that the woman was thrown 5 feet. That's what the Toronto Blessing does. But if this is what turns you on, then go for it brother!
My reading and comprehension skills?
First off you addressed me directly at 7:18, saying and I quote:
OK, Niki is an anti-Semite, and I'm a Massod agent running a conspiracy advising everyone to believe nothing, and learn everything you can about deception and its most powerful weapon, persuasion which causes belief."
I went back through the thread and saw that an anonymous poster at 5:58 said that you were a Mossad agent, not me.
So I responded with my post at 8:16, saying that I was not the one that called you a Mossad agent. What part of that is hard to understand? I know some here think I'm a pea brain, but I do make an attempt to be specific, when commenting here, since much is taken the wrong way through misunderstanding.
I think it is YOUR reading and comprehension skills that seem to be a little faulty, brother, since I specifically said that the person that was thrown across the room was a young man, not a woman.
Thanks for explaining the quote about the Holy Spirit. Yes, I always pray through the Father, so no need to knock this Christian's familiarity with Scripture.
In the end, I was not trying to have a confrontation with you, just trying to raise a level of awareness here of how certain material can have a very negative effect on people's opinions of others.
Also, just for the record, I did a lengthy blog post about the danger of Todd Bentley, and his kundalini impartations this past summer, which I believe is what you are referring to as the Toronto blessing. So this dumb-dumb agrees with you.
Berit Kjos is an extremely astute woman. Thank you for that link. You said:
"Her conclusion is very relevant to our discussions here regarding the dialectic process:
"Lewis knew how to make pagan fantasy sound like Christian reality. One key to his success is the dialectic process, the formula is simple: Truth (thesis) + myth, opinion or suggestion (antithesis) = a new worldview (synthesis). In this evolving process, even Christian children are drawn away from their Biblical foundations."
An excellent analogy! It is amazing how much of this can be seen almost everywhere, once it is recognized. I was thinking about this as I watched PBS news tonight where they transitioned seemlessly from discussing how Obama was going to need to get immediately involved in the Israeli crisis to global warming and how Alaska is suffering as a result of it.
Thanks again for the link. CS Lewis, Tolkien, Rowling and others have definitely drawn children from their biblical foundations, thanks to ignorance of spiritual warfare.
Rick Warren is a false prophet and Church leaders that follow him will go to perdition. The Purpose Driven Life is one proof of this being itself a false gospel so popular with the unsaved to whom it was sold. I do not plan on defending these statements to any one who takes issue here. If you have questions regarding this and it may become critical, read up on him. Start here.
use the drop down menu to access many carefully written articles. God bless
If it was just unacceptable to refer to individuals by name because they support a particular set of beliefs, no New Age leaders would be named on this blog.
I thought this blog was set up to fight the New Age movement because the ideas it supports are dangerous. Maybe I was wrong. Was it set up to have discussions on the value of the New Age movement versus its dangers? If so, you need to invite New Age posters over here so that there can be a balanced discussion.
As Rachman's column showed, many supporters of the New Age movement are very intelligent, can defend their beliefs and fool many. The UN and EU are full of very intelligent people who convince many others of the value of their beliefs.
There has been no attacking of Christianity here. Len and I have tried to correct the distortions of Judaism presented here. There must be hundreds of academic books attacking Christianity. If these authors started posting their views here, you would be right to stop it because readers here are not prepared to academically argue for their beliefs. Nothing good could come of it. It would only leave a void where the New Age religion could step in.
It's the same thing with antisemitism. The antisemitic community is extremely large and networked. There is nothing innocent about it. It is sick and evil because it is full of pride and distorts information in order to control others.
Readers here are not prepared to understand the size of that movement and its goals. Jews generally don't even understand what is going on.
There are many other things that are sick and evil in the world...communism, fascism, totalitarianism, New Age, dictatorships. There are flesh and blood people connected with all of these movements. I know you and know you aren't open to seeing the positive sides of these things defended here nor would I think you would want to avoid mentioning the individuals involved in them.
Judaism and Christianity both have standards saying there is no justification for things that are evil. They do not need to discussed endlessly from scratch as if the evil things are valid.
Ideas don't exist in a vacuum here or any where else. They are pushed by flesh and blood people.
This blog is primarily by good, ordinary people, not religious academics. This is the kind of fertile field where those with an agenda love to work because they will find little or no opposition.
As Hopper stated I recently had an issue with what the world would call paranormal activity. While I never had direct contact with any foul spirit outside of hearing it speak a few times, my situation was resolved through prayer to my Father. Asking Him to send His Spirit to cleanse my home. During this lengthy prayer session I was moved as only He is capable of doing. Since this prayer I have not heard, seen, or even felt the presence of any other spirit in my home, neither has a single member of my family including my unbelieving brother. Note that before this, not a single day went by when one of us (5 of us in all) didn't experience something related to it. I can testify fully to what is capable through the Holy Spirit if the Father is willing. Growing up mainly in a pentecostal church I can also fairly say that miraculous things also occur for those of faith, I can also say that I have witnessed frauds on this account.
From a Christian stand point, yes I am a strong Bible believing Christian that relies on the guidance of scripture as well as the Holy Spirit, I have to say that the J.K. Rowling books cannot be lumped together with the works of Lewis or even Tolkien.
The spirit behind her books is not that of Christ. Whereas C.S. Lewis has taken many allegory's from scripture and woven them into the Narnia books. His books made me want to find out more about who God is and who His son Jesus was.
One example from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader that mad a huge impact on me was when Eustace, who is a spoiled, selfish child, turns into a dragon due to his grabby nature. Aslan comes and slowly begins the process of peeling back the scales on his skin and bathing him in healing waters. It hurts like crazy but Eustace knows that every layer that Aslan tears off and cleans is healing him of his selfish, sinful nature. His encounter with Aslan changes his life and makes him a new person.
This is how I see my relationship with God. When I have characteristics that need to be replaced with godly ones, God strips them from me. It hurts but the process heals me. Actually this is how many people feel when they come to Christ. The Christian walk is a process that requires God's intervention and healing daily.
This is just one example from the many I could quote of redeming qualities found throughout the Narnia series.
As far as Tolkien, these are just great stories. I personally haven't found the deep spiritual meaning in the Hobbit like I did in the Narnia books. But it didn't have the same spiritual darkness that the J.K. Rowling books did.
I understand that many may disagree with me and that is o.k. But before you judge sit down and read a good work of fiction or non-fiction written by either Lewis or Tolkien and then comment.
Read all of these books dozens of times throughout my childhood. Not one of them ever had a "spiritual" impact on my life, but I read them over and over again because I just loved the characters in the stories.
My objection is this: that books like these can be the cause of a desensitization to the Biblical error cleverly weaved throught the stories.
As I've grown through the years in spiritual maturity ( I still have a lot of work to do in this process of maturing), I no longer have a desire to delight in the works of this author and many more like him (George MacDonald, etc...). Do I regret reading them as a child? No. Have my children read them? Yes. Have I pointed out the Biblical errors found throughout them to my children and to my friends and family members? Yes. Would I ever judge you or another for having read these books and enjoying them? No.
Please don't misunderstand me. I point out the truth because, by not pointing it out, does it make it less true? Facts are facts. Biblical error is error.
It's not my opinion or judgement. The lines written in the books speak volumes on their own. So please judge for yourself. I mean no disrespect to you.
Sincerely In Him,
Regarding C.S. Lewis and Tolkein. I couldn't agree with you more.
As for the Harry Potter books, I wouldn't allow a small child to see them. Nor would I allow an older child to see them unless I were certain that they knew that the Harry Potter movies were completely make believe and not to be applied to real life.
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"Hegel is often referred to as the author or creator of the principle of "thesis, antithesis, synthesis," which is a way of analyzing the history/development of political views (or philosophical views, depending on the context.)"
That may be what Hegel wanted you to believe, but is that how it works on the ground? Marx revamped the dialect and adapted it to a proactive process of dynamic social change, and that is how the dialectic must be understood if you hope to understand the interconnectedness of the various elements over many years, and see that they all fit snugly into the same game plan. David Icke et al have confused the issue, and on purpose if you ask me, by simplifying it to problem-reaction-solution which is compatible with Icke's dot connecting busywork scheme.
I have a copy of the source reference book which discusses this application of the dialectic in a 1934/1941 publication titled Social Disorganization. I have explained how it works in practice in my article "The Dialectic Tetrad and the "Third Organization of Society"", which makes it clear why this has never been fully explain.
I understand what you are saying in that no fictional book should replace Biblical truth. And I don't think that Lewis' Narnia books are by any means a Biblical road map. I'm not sure where the spiritual error is in these books but then again I never read them like a commentary either.
I do think that they are well written, fiction that contain nuggets of spiritual insight that can encourage spiritual growth. As opposed to Rowling's books that have NO spiritual redeeming value.
I guess that I had to comment because Maryanne's comment lumping Lewis and Tolkien with Rowling and saying that they all "draw children away from biblical foundation."
The Narnia books really made me more interested in the God of the Bible. It helped that I knew that C.S. Lewis had God in mind when he created the Aslan character. And I think this is what Lewis wanted to do with these books. They are for fun but have a depth that many other children's fiction doesn't contain.
It is important to read books (fiction or non-fiction) with discernment and to talk with our children about the meaning behind books. But I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water as many Christians do with ficitonal literature.
Again, I appreciate and respect your view point SV and am glad to have this discussion.
I'm a member of Chapel Hill United Methodist in Battle Creek, not Portage. I'm talking about Battle Creek, Michigan. Apparently, there are other Battle Creeks in the country. We have one of the few industries in Michigan that actually is doing well financially. I have yet to see Kelloggs beg for a bailout.
David in Battle Creek
I truly appreciate what you have said here. It is easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater , as I've said many times here.
I actually hold C.S.Lewis in esteem. His book, "Mere Christianity" had a tremendous affect on my making the decision to believe in God as a young woman.
Just to clarify my thoughts on the matter, I'll repeat what I said in an earlier thread to SV:
"What did you think of The Chronicles of Narnia , by the way? To me, it was just that- a work of fiction that used religious iconography to tell a story of redemption, similar to what The Shack tried to do. If it's taken as anything more than fiction- well that's a big problem."
I think the problem is when these types of books are taken as something other than fiction. "The Shack" has been compared to "Pilgrim's Progress", which certainly takes it out of the realm of fiction. That's where mysticism comes in but I don't really want to get into an argument with anyone on that.
The children going through the wardrobe into the snowstorm in the C.S.Lewis book was great fun to read. So was the Tolkien Trilogy and Alice in Wonderland and through the Looking Glass. Unfortunately, Alice has become a sort of symbol for occultists, perhaps because everything is reversed in the book. I just don't know. Lewis Carroll is also a little sketchy, IMHO. Was he really a pervert? I don't know. But I think that as long as children realize these books are just fiction and don't try to fly down the steps (as my brother did after reading Peter Pan), then I suppose they are fine. (Henry Potter is excluded here.)
Thanks again for your valuable imput.
I have a son who has Autism and mild MR. One afternoon, my children and I met a friend and her children (plus three children that she was watching for the afternoon) at the new MacDonald's by her house. It was on a Veteran's Day- and SUPER crowded at the awesome new MacDonald's playland! My friend had opted to fetch the nine little Happy Meals for all of our nine hungry little ones. That left me with the care of all nine little ones on my own. I was holding two precocious two-year-olds and managing pretty well, considering the odds, until my three-year-old son began to "bop" up and down to the jukebox music, occassionally whacking the back of the booth with his little head. There was an older lady with her thirteen-year-old granddaughter in the adjoining booth to ours. She kept looking irritatedly at me and my crew of little ones, and finally she pointed her forefinger at the head of my son and stated loudly, "Would you please make THAT stop? I'm still recovering from some back pain and that little boy is not helping me!"
I swiftly apologized, explained that I had my hands full momentarily, that my son is Autistic and that it would require me to physically hold him in order to make "THAT" stop, and I assured her that I would move him out of the way immediately upon the return of the other mommy- but that I would need just another moment or two of her patience in order to correct the problem. She abruptly stood up, grabbed her granddaughter by the arm, and shouted angrily, "I've worked with special-needs children for fifteen years, and I'm so sick and tired of parents, like you, who make excuses for bad behavior just because their child is 'special'!" She continued her tirade as she left the building. By now, it had grown considerably more quiet in that crowded MacDonald's, all eyes staring at me and my little ones. So I smiled a little smile of embarrassment at them and stated, "Well, I guess I didn't pick the right battle to fight according to her today."
Throughout most of my life (especially with raising a differently-abled child), I've discovered that it's a series of little day-by-day battles. We put on the full armor of God and pray that we've chosen to fight the ones that He would have us fight according to His perfect will for our lives and the lives of our children, families, friends, and communities.
Sometimes it's immediately apparent to me when I've chosen the wrong battle to fight, other times I learn later in life which would have been the more worthy of battles to take on.
When it comes to literature, I read just about anything. I don't actually choose to battle against most children's literature, but I do make sure that I've read what my children are reading, and I explain things to them that I feel convicted that they may need to be girded against if there is harmful material in the books they choose to read (or that they have to read for school).
Sometimes I wish that I were more wise than I am. It would prevent a lot of battle wounds! Unfortunately, it's a day-by-day kind of thing! ;-)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about these books, too.
By His Grace,
P.S. Sorry 'bout the longer post.
Wow! As a momma bear I don't know what I would have said to that grouchy, judgmental old lady! It sounds like you dealt with it gracefully! =)
I kind of react strongly to "religious attitudes" or what I perceive to be a spirit of judgement, because I have seen a lot of harm done in the name of "righteousness".
I guess the post from Maryanne made me want to defend good children's literature. And point out the difference between a spiritually dark series like Harry Potter (which is a riveting story) and the Narnia books that are written by a man who loved Jesus and lived a full spiritual life dedicated to Christ.
I hope no offense was taken in this exchange. =0)
Blessings to you and your family.
My daughter reminds me that it's McDonald's not MacDonald's. Guess it's been a while since I ate there! ;-)
and the Narnia books that are written by a man who loved Jesus and lived a full spiritual life dedicated to Christ.
I don't think narnia is that innocent (evil can be so subtle) and if he really dedicated his life to the biblical christ remains a question.
That may be what Hegel wanted you to believe, but is that how it works on the ground?
The way I learned it, the "dialectic" would only "work on the ground" if everything in existence were actually a "unity of opposites."
Those who peddled the "dialectic" were never able to adequately prove that this was the case. It was something they merely assumed -and on grounds that they were never able to argue from necessity or prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
Philosophically, in order for there to be such a thing as sheer "opposites" the things "opposing" each other can have nothing in common - including being.
The social "classes" that Marx and his confreres claimed were "opposites" had a great deal in common - more than Marx & company wanted to admit.
Perhaps this is putting it a bit crudely, but think about it. What is the "opposite" of "SOMETHING?"
You combine NOTHING with SOMETHING and you are going to wind up with the same SOMETHING you started out with. In terms of politics and history, this translates into "SAME CIRCUS WITH DIFFERENT CLOWNS!!!"
This is why the "dialectical materialism" which was the philosophy of Karl Marx DIDN'T "work on the ground."
Marx and Engels started with the "observation" (???) that everything in existence is a "unity of opposites."
Their "dialectic" wound up as the "SAME CIRCUS" in so far as it is little more than the ancient gnostic "dualistic" cosmogony tricked out in modern pseudo-scientific terminology.
In fact, Walter Leslie Wilmshurst in his book THE MEANING OF MASONRY - in CHAPTER IV entitled THE HOLY ROYAL ARCH OF JERUSALEM - likens the three "Blue Degrees" of Masonry to the Hegelian dialectic of thesis, antithesis, synthesis - which was morphed into dialectical materialism by Marx and Engels.
Under the stress then of the Geometrizing Principle now found symbolically integrated within the candidate's temporal organism, a re-distribution of his component powers has become effected. His repolarized condition is symbolized by an equilateral triangle with a point at its centre, and such a triangle will be found, worked in gold, upon the sash worn by the Companions of the Order. The significance of this triangle is that the tripartite aspects of him who wears it (that is, the spiritual, psychical and physical parts of him) now stand equalized and equilibrated around their common Life-Principle at the centre, fitted and equipped for Its purpose. Yet each of these three divisions, though in itself unitary, is philosophically triadic in composition when subjected to intellectual analysis. "Every monad is the parent of a triad" is another maxim of the Ancients, who anticipated the modern Hegelian proposition of metaphysics that thesis, antithesis and synthesis are the essential ingredients of a given truth. Hence it comes about that the three aspects of each of the three sides of our equilateral triangle are ceremonially personified by the nine officers of the Chapter—three in the East representing the spiritual side, three in the West figuring the soul or psychical side, and three subordinate links connecting these other two. (These will be further and more conveniently treated of later when the symbolic nature of the officers is dealt with).
The philosophy that "works on the ground" is the "moderate realism" based on the teachings of Aristotle,(founded on common sense) - not the radical idealism claiming to be based on the teachings of Plato which,in many ways,resembles Hinduism.
I was required to read The Hobbit in 7th grade and thought it was an interesting story. My family then rented the cartoon movie because of my interest. I'm really not aware of it having any spiritual influence on me, positive or negative. I didn't know of the Narnia books when I was growing up. However, I do remember in 7th grade one of my teachers read aloud to the class a book about a girl who would astral-project, which I knew was not something a Christian should be involved in! Out of all the classics she could choose from, she chose to read us that junk! (Reason #567 why we home school.)
Thanks for the web site. Interesting point made by the author. I remember reading that and wondering what C.S. Lewis was trying to convey.
Having read "Mere Christianity" and a few other non-fictions works I understand Lewis to believe as I do in Jesus Christ as God and His death making it possible to come to God and be reconciled to Him.
Instead of reading someone else's take on the author (mine as well as others) pick up Mere Christianity which is a fine example of what Lewis actually believes.
He lays out an amazing case for Christianity and discusses some of the deepest questions and objections that one could have.
Thank you for your response. I do not need to read the entire book( the few quotes i have read were more than enough) to know where Lewis is going, I've been there myself (ecumenical thinking, mysticism, occultism etc). I just want to warn the people who put their entire faith and trust in Christ and His word (the bible) alone. If you think Lewis was on the right track then you are free to think so.
*just a little disclaimer*
Not sure if I would ever have returned to Christianity as I was a pretty good example of everything that's gone down the path of destruction, had I not read "Mere Christianity" in my early 20's, and made the decision to believe based on faith alone.
Not intending to be controversial here, only to say that sometimes we do indeed throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I loved this info:
"Under the stress then of the Geometrizing Principle now found symbolically integrated within the candidate's temporal organism, a re-distribution of his component powers has become effected."
You go on to describe a fractal!
Then you said,
" Hence it comes about that the three aspects of each of the three sides of our equilateral triangle are ceremonially personified by the nine officers of the Chapter—three in the East representing the spiritual side, three in the West figuring the soul or psychical side, and three subordinate links connecting these other two. (These will be further and more conveniently treated of later when the symbolic nature of the officers is dealt with)."
See this simplistic description of a fractal:
Plato really dug himself into a cave didn't he?
All philosophical stuff aside, this is seriously interesting stuff to even the idiots among us!
Thanks for the links, Susanna.
Paul, thanks for trying but you were waaaaaayyy off!
Happy early New Year everybody! (Paul pulled the cork early!)
The Idiote Savante
(yeah I'm female, but I'm betting that Susanna already knew that!)
Big smooch inserted here! Pass the love around. Love is all we need! (In the form of a loving Saviour of course, who freed us from perdition.)
For my Orthodox Jewish friends (and especially Dorothy, or D'Authority , as Paul calls her)who haven't found their savior yet, here's a wonderful speech about agape love, that all can relate to, regardless of religion:
"At the center of our movement stood the philosophy of love. The attitude that the only way to ultimately change humanity and make for the society that we all long for is to keep love at the center of our lives. Now people used to ask me from the beginning what do you mean by love and how is it that you can tell us to love those persons who seek to defeat us and those persons who stand against us; how can you love such persons? And I had to make it clear all along that love in its highest sense is not a sentimental sort of thing, not even an affectionate sort of thing...When we talk of loving those who oppose you and those who seek to defeat you we are not talking about eros or philia. The Greek language comes out with another word and it is agape. Agape is understanding, creative, redemptive good will for all men. Biblical theologians would say it is the love of God working in the minds of men. It is an overflowing love which seeks nothing in return. And when you come to love on this level you begin to love men not because they are likeable, not because they do things that attract us, but because God loves them and here we love the person who does the evil deed while hating the deed that the person does. It is the type of love that stands at the center of the movement that we are trying to carry on in the Southland—agape."
Martin Luther King
Well said, Martin. Agape love is the answer.
In the spirit of community, (though not communitarianism) let's all try to use agape love this year, so we can get along!
I couldn't help but notice the image on the upper left hand corner of the site that you linked to about Freemasonry. The image was of a man in a Phrygian cap.
Do you think the Freemasons are connected to the Cult of Mithra?
First, if you can understand this stuff, you are certainly NOT an idiot. But then, I have always understood the term idiot savante to refer to someone who is quite brilliant.
Second, with reference to what you wrote:
Then you said,
" Hence it comes about that the three aspects of each of the three sides of our equilateral triangle are ceremonially personified by the nine officers of the Chapter....
I Just want to make it clear that I was quoting Wilmshurst's book THE MEANING OF MASONRY.
But in the end it's all "supercalla-fractalistic expialidocious!"
With apologies to Mary Poppins! (Mille pardons, Marie!)
Happy New Year!
Yes I do thing Freemasonry is connected to the cult of Mithra - especially in so far as Mithraism was a mystery cult.
Here are some links that you might find interesting.
But in the end it's all "supercalla-fractalistic expialidocious!"
(Gotta go listen to Constance!)
I understand what you're saying however i do not give credit to the work of Lewis but solely to the Holy Spirit of Jesus for your return to christianity. I wonder how many people have lost the true faith because of Lewis's false doctrine?
I'm sure there are people gaining new interest in Jesus and the bible through Rick Warren for example but the fact remains; he teaches false doctrine. I'm glad God's Spirit breaks through anything, even false doctrine.
Thanks for clarifying that. I do agree.
I agree that it was the work of the Holy Spirit that turned me around, though I do believe that God can take any situation, even if it's intended for evil, and use that situation for good.
The story of Joseph is a perfect example of that, as the fact that Joseph was sold into Egyptian slavery actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise, not just for the Hebrews, but also for the Egyptians.
God is truly amazing!
Also you can donate through the CHIP IN box on the main page of Micro Effect Radio. It's a paypal donation. Just let Joe McNeil know you are putting this toward Constance's show only.
Some have already donated. Thanks! Margie
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