RES IPSA LOQUITUR! (A Latin legal expression meaning "The thing speaks for itself")
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Barbara Marx Hubbard's blogspot about her Occupy Wall Street thoughts and happiness!
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And, her confederates profoundly agree. Here's a voice from
THE SHIFT NETWORK:
In case we forgot, this "
Conspiracy Cafe" quotes from Barbara Marx Hubbard's book, THE BOOK OF CO-CREATION: THE BOOK OF REVELATION:
I will be posting much more here. I will be talking about this (OCCUPY WALL STREET as the NEW AGE WORLD REVOLUTION) on Dr. Stanley Monteith's radio program tomorrow at 4 pm Pacific time, 7 p.m. Eastern time.
More New Age claimed
ownership of the Occupy Wall Street Movements:
Sure looks NEW AGE to me -- the guerrilla street theater and all other communal life, meditative style experiential modes, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
Tune in and STAY TUNED!
CONSTANCE
190 comments:
I read a quotation by Barbara marx Hubbard on another blog, where she said one-fourth of the world would evolve into higher consciousness and one-fourth would have to die, and by die she seemed to mean be assisted to pass on because they were occupying space uselessly.
this was the most awful New Age quote I have ever read, and I do not know if it is accurate. It is hard to believe that this smiling woman could voice such evil thoughts about the old, disabled, the "very young", the stupid, that they would have to die to get out of the way. I still am not sure it is accurate. No reference was given.
Pure evil.
Hi Mariel,
It is very real and it is from Barbara Marx Hubbard. She claims it was CHANNELED to her. I have both her unpublished manuscript which she sold publicly as same and the book published with the financial assistance of Laurance Rockefeller.
Constance
This from the SelfGov.us website re OWS:
Occupy Planet Earth: The Great Rising Up
We are witnessing the birth of a new paradigm for mankind, one that is a game-changer for the planet. What is unfolding before our very eyes, ears, hearts and minds, is the awakening of our collective consciousness.
Sounds so very "New Age" to me!
Constance
Mariel,
I have a blog post which shows these pages from Hubbard's manuscript. Click on each page to expand it. I should have scanned one more page because Hubbard continues that they intend to pull this off through a war against terrorists (referring to us).
http://pineline.blogspot.com/
2009/09/riders-of-pale-horse.html
David Spangler's October 27, 2008 is interesting considering the Occupy Movement has assigned blame to Wall Street, the rich, etc.
http://lorianassociation.com/
davidspage.html#gpm1_2
Barbara's quote is CRAZY from the pits of hell. W-O-W. And I thought I was done being shocked...
I was reading Revelation last night and felt so sad that so many people are going to face God's wrath and don't know it yet.. Then I read this and felt better, because God is just. He will give them many more chances to repent.
"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts." -- Rev 9:20-21
Yes, Mariel.
The New World Order's primary goal is to reduce the world's population from 7 billion down to 500 million...and purge the planet of all of the 'useless eaters.'
Personally, as a devout Catholic, I can't wait...as I am ready to meet my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Listen to what David Rockefeller says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5
gcZu1Pe2xk
The Georgia Guidestones
http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.
htm
Bill and Melinda Gates push new Malaria vaccine...
http://www.breakingchristiannews.co
m/articles/display_art.html?ID=9484
Reposting a link to Neale Donald Walsch's blog where he's been talking about OWS:
http://www.theglobalconversation.com/blog/?p=590
http://www.newswithviews.com/Kincaid/cliff562.htm
Again, Soros behind the scenes.
Given the topic (BMH) and the support for the Occupy groups, this should be of interest. This is the facebook and website for Worldshift movement, a sub site of the Worldshift Network, which in turn is a subsidiary of Club of Budapest.
One should notice not just support for the Occupy groups, but will find articles from the likes of Laszlo et al, but one can also find video of Deepak Chopra and the like actually participating in the Occupations.
http://tinyurl.com/3qv4lse
http://www.worldshiftmovement.org
I am reposting two that got buried in the last thread.
1)Palestine wins UNESCO seat
Palestine won full admission into UNESCO, the United Nations science, education and culture organization, in a closely watched vote in Paris Monday. Global diplomacy hands view the 107-14 vote as a benchmark carrying larger implications for the Palestinians' bid for full state recognition before the UN Security Council. Both the United States and Israel have strongly opposed that initiative.
The United States, Israel, Canada and Germany were among the 14 nations voting against the Palestinians' UNESCO bid, while 107 countries--including France, Spain, Ireland, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, India, Russia, China, South Africa and Indonesia--voted in favor. Fourteen nations--including the United Kingdom and Italy--abstained.
more at link
http://tinyurl.com/3trvmzt
2)Any help digging into the claims in these articles is appreciated.
http://tinyurl.com/3wowfqr
http://tinyurl.com/6hdgxlm
http://unifyearth.com/
Israel Test Fires Missile Amid Reports Cabinet Debating Iran
November 02, 2011, 9:50 AM EDT
Nov. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Israel test fired a missile from a base on the Mediterranean Sea amid local newspaper reports that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was lobbying his Cabinet to support possible action against Iran’s nuclear program.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-02/israel-test-fires-missile-amid-reports-cabinet-debating-iran.html
Curious?
Is anyone aware of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Nazi connection? Of which Al Qaeda is decended? And who seem to really be behind much of the "Arab Spring"?
Are there any threads on this I might have missed? Looking for more info as I continue to research.
JD,
I saw your links in the last comment thread, and went to the first one... WOW.
Did you see this page?
http://www.in5d.com/5d-earth-will-some-people-get-left-behind.html
It seems that every religion, even the New Age folk have this idea that the world is going to change and people are going to be "left behind" or something similar. The ones who aren't "good enough" or aren't willing to go with the change. To accept it.
Well, all I know is we have the Truth and the Way and all we can do is warn people of what's to come, as well as stay strong in the faith with great perseverance. Holding on to the hope we have. Even to the point of death.
Come, Lord Jesus!
Jenna,
What concerned me about the articles, is the event reportedly scheduled for 12/21/2012 at Chichen Itza being organized by Unify Earth. I have already found connections between Unify Earth and Worldshift (Club of Budapest). It appears to me that they are attempting to orchestrate the largest New Age invocation to date, and judging simply based on the individual organizers history and connections, they may be able to pull it off.
I am now looking for any further information I can gather on the event itself. So any help in this area that anyone can provide, would be greatly appreciated.
All these "New Age" personalities are coming out of the wood works. It's like a family reunion.
TD,
Hajj Amin the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who hated Jews because Islam tells Muslims to, and because he saw Jews migrating to Palestine pre-war, had close connections with the Nazis. He climbed the chain until he got on terms with Hitler himself. Arguably it is after a meeting with Hajj Amin that the top Nazis turned, from a plan to expel the Jews from the lands of the Third Reich, to a plan to exterminate them. See:
http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Clubs_Mufti_Mujahideen.Islam
Interesting upcoming event in Los Angeles.
http://www.crystalskulls.com/events/111111/hunbatz-men-pilgrimage-journey.html
TD:
Here is a long (but well-researched) article that shows the historical connection between radical Islam (green), the Nazis (brown) and Communism (red):
http://blog.alexandredelvalle.com/archives/96-The-Reds,-The-Browns-and-the-Greens-or-The-Convergence-of-Totalitarianisms.html
or:
http://tinyurl.com/6oef7m
[Wed, Nov. 2]
Wow , Marko,
That essay is a tough slog, but well
worth the time to get through it.
Thanks.
One gets the impression that the
Reds, Greens and Browns are meant
for each other, even though their
individual ideologies are so far apart.
War makes for strange bedfellows.
I guess they all have hatred in common.
"Greens" is usually the name given to the New Age political entity known as just that "The Greens" or "The Green Party" which commonly refer to themselves as "sustainables" or the environmental party.
Constance
JD,
There is A LOT of info on this page. Also explanations on why people think it is important to visit the temple itself.
http://www.adishakti.org/mayan_end_times_prophecy_12-21-2012.htm
Hi everyone, along the lines of this subject I pulled this interesting paragraph from Share International.
"Maitreya's Sword of Cleavage forces humanity to make a choice: to share or die. He states it clearly: 'Men must share or die. There is no other course'. When it dawns on us that we share or die, of course we will accept to share and that will create the conditions in which all can live in peace." (Benjamin Creme, The Art of Living: Living Whithin the Laws of Life).
This reminded me of a verse in Daniel 8:25: "And through his policy also he shall cause deceit to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many;"
By the way you can find this Maitreya deal on the Sword of Cleavage at this site:
http://share-international.org/magazine/old_issues/2011/2011-10.htm#swordof
Constance:
Yes, except in the article I linked to, Green refers to Islam. Green has been associated with Islam since its inception.
The three totalitarianisms of Nazism, Communism and Islamism will pale in comparison though to the coming world order. I wonder what its "political color" will be?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/10459
The rainbow, yes? The rainbow of initiation, the Sword of Cleavage, the color of "love"....
Mariel,
I just read that quote at that blog site you talked about from Barbara Marx Hubbard. I can hardly believe what I was reading. Wow! That is so very blunt. She doesn't even try to sugar coat it.
Yes, Benjamin Creme has been speaking about this "sword of cleavage" from the very beginning, including but not limited to the night I heard him personally at Detroit's Unity Center for Holistic Living on November 4, 1981 to an extremely large and packed enthusiastic crowd. It was frightening to see such an exercise in mass hypnosis. Until then, I did not have such a clear notion of how Hitler must have pulled things off.
Constance
The headline could also be rightly put as:
"Is "Occupy Wall Street," New Age? Is the Pope Rosicrucian? Do fish swim?"
WAKE UP - Know Your Enemy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4SvYQBBSEk
Vatican - Roman Law Rule Washington D.C.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWcw7xXsbpA
" "because the Catholic Church cannot err in matters of faith and morals"
The Catholic church used to teach as a matter of faith that the sun went round the earth, and threatened Galileo with torture for asserting the opposite. Today it accepts that Galileo as right. Therefore it has erred at least once. Therefore it is not inerrant."
Anon, 4:52 AM I salute your courage, clarity and honesty in your threads. Your reasoning is clearly scripturally, logically and historically supported.
This blog is, however, sadly heavily monitored by the Jesuits and their ilk.
5:25 AM
Excuse presumption, I'm sure you'll find this was well worth re-posting here from the last blog. It is poignant along with the other comments immediately preceding, and relevant to, it. Please see last threads under " "Has Vatican called for creation of a "World Authority" on global finance? If accurate, this is OMINOUS!" "
These need honest consideration and response.
Luciferian Fascism The New World Order 2012 Lucifers Clutches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh4Rgb1WvuQ
Rich Peterson,
Thanks for posting the Marx Hubbard source for the quotes as I've been looking for this source for an upcoming project.
OWS may esteem itself part of a world movement that incl. Arab Spring or maybe it doesn't. But while it is not specifically Christian it is targetting some very unholy stuff to take down.
Conversely, there is evidence of big money back of it, which may mean it is being used, or thought to be usable, by some element in the global monetary power at odds with a rival element, looking to gain power in the turmoil or by being seen eventually as backing a help the people thing. Our own Revolution had everything from Christians to satanists in it.
Meanwhile, maybe the thing to do is to pray a lot against the new agers, the chanellers, the spirits back of them and that God block all this and make their (and the seasonal pagan etc.) festivities fail.
these new agers are jumping on a bandwagon. Anonymous seems to be a collective not a hierarchy and so anyone and anything can be in it. Right now it is taking on the los zetas. http://mail.aol.com/34290-311/aol-6/en-us/Suite.aspx as noted in the article, only one determined Anonymous element is needed to do anything.
The New Agers shamelessly promote anything as part of their scene. A chaneller named Leider was the first to be making a stink about Nibiru, and of course setting wayyy
wrong dates, that would have those who gave up in disgust be caught out unprepared and killed likely, when it does get here. these fools who love them never get wise, harmonic convergence and ascension and crap like that. Like EO says get rid of your passions and the taste for them, and you won't be so temptable and deceivable. on nibiru see my youtube posts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oZd19q1UD0 which shows it has NOTHING to do with Exodus (Velikosvsky to modern Sitchin and 3600 year orbit argues Biblical disasters were just misinterpreted natural events) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmRUtlMF93M
Dr. Monteith thought he had scheduled me for November 9th. Usually I make the mistake and forget. Sorry for those who tried to catch him last night. We will try again on Wednesday, November 9th at 4 Pacific time and 7 Eastern time. In the meantime, I am on the air tonight on this topic of Occupy Wall Street and the New Age Movement again.
Constance
I need your help!
Anyone who can give me very direct quotes and documentation, I would be very grateful. Currently I am aware of a ministry which bases its philosophy in the following: When a person has a traumatic experience in his life, or a harsh word such as “You’ll never amount to anything!” the kingdom of darkness (Satan) implants an image on the inside of him. God wants to change that image. They minister blessing and “listening prayer” to heal these images. When God speaks directly to your heart, your self-image is transformed and you receive inner healing.
I recognize this as based in Jungian psychology. I have looked at this stuff for several years and to be honest, I just can’t wrap my head around it. I know it’s wrong and I’m sure it’s Jungian, but I need to understand why. Can anyone help me or direct me to someone who can.
Thanks a bunch.
IF ANYONE WANTS TO VIEW THE FULL TEXT OF THE VATICAN INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL GLOBAL PUBLIC AUTHORITY PAPER, YOU CAN DOWNLOAD OR READ IT AT LINK BELOW:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/70575115/Vatican-International-Financial-Global-Public-Authority-Paper-Full-Text
http://www.scribd.com/doc/
70575115/Vatican-
International-
Financial-Global-
Public-Authority-
Paper-Full-Text
Hey, found this at scribd too!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11661070/The-VaticanJesuit-link-to-the-new-world-order
http://www.scribd.com/
doc/11661070/The-VaticanJesuit-
link-to-the-
new-world-order
I am the 'last prot standing' at Constance's preceding post and I agree that the Reformation discussion there should not spill over into this thread.
Christine, please could you post on that preceding thread a reference to the story you gave there of young children being on duty at the Temple in Jerusalem? I'd not heard it before and it was most interesting to me.
If a person is healed by God in some way, it's simply through his grace. It can't really be explained how God does it. How God works is a mystery. There is no technology that can capture such a thing. Anyone that claims anything else is full of it.
I haven't discussed the Reformation, Anon 12:14 PM. I much prefer pre-Reformation Christianity. As a Christian, I protest most vehemently against not only the murderous popes but also the murderous Calvin and Luther as well. That being said, you may find the link below of use.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/society_of_jesus_jesuits.htm
http://www.thenazareneway.com/
society_of_jesus_jesuits.htm
Anon@12.44pm,
I'm replying to you on the previous thead. Let's do it there.
Anonymous said...
"because the Catholic Church cannot err in matters of faith and morals"
The Catholic church used to teach as a matter of faith that the sun went round the earth, and threatened Galileo with torture for asserting the opposite. Today it accepts that Galileo as right. Therefore it has erred at least once. Therefore it is not inerrant."
Anonymous, you must not be aware that heliocentrism is ONLY a THEORY, and has not been proven as an indisputable FACT...
http://tinyurl.com/63tsdc4
http://tinyurl.com/3v5t33l
http://tinyurl.com/galileofacts
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism.html
Very well 12:59 PM. I agree provisionally.
1 Thes 4:17 Disproves Pre-trib and Pre-Wrath Fly Away Rapture Theory.
From: SEK4110 Aug 3, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/user/SEK4110#p/u/34/3IzPYeBFslE
http://www.youtube.com/
user/SEK4110#p/u/34/
3IzPYeBFslE
I need your help;
That's actually classic Scientology
by way of the nut-job L.Ron Hubbard.
To I NEED YOUR HELP!
It sounds very, very similar to what Ruth Carter Stapleton (President Jimmy Carter's sister) was putting out in the 1970's. Although she was a claimed Christian, I learned from extremely credible sources that she had been a keynote speaker for the UNITY IN DIVERSITY COUNCIL convention. That organization had board members such as Peter Caddy (Findhorn founder), George and Joella Emery (Society of Emissaries) and was the group that brought Benjamin Creme to the USA to speak about "Maitreya"/Betraya in the late 1970s. The same group released a book THE MAITREYAN REVOLUTION in 1974. I have two copies of same.
Constance
Constance
Cathy,
Re Catholic inerrrancy and heliocentrism: please see my response on previous thread.
pre trib rapture idea didn't exist before the 1800s, that is a fact.
I don't see how straight bible teaching about this resembles Hubbardism. explain? There are
several videos and books exploding the pre tribulation rapture nonsense without this particular woman on the video.
oh i'm sorry, I got confused by the proximity of one post to another.
That's alright Christine. Don't worry about it.
Craig,
Another Hubbard book which carries the same threatening tone is Happy Birthday Planet Earth: The Instant of Co-Operation. This book is part of the larger Book of Co-Creation series. Hubbard explains that a spirit met her on a park bench one day and channeled through her an "evolutionary" interpretation of the Bible. (I see it as more of a revolutionary interpretation.)
Happy Birthday Planet Earth is about as bold as "The Revelation: Alternative to Armageddon" with chapter 7 devoted to "the selection process".
You can buy it used on Amazon.com at a fairly inexpensive price. If you do presentations on the new age this one is worth having in your library.
Rich
Rich,
Thanks for your comment/tip. I have picked up Happy Birth Day Planet Earth (2 different ones which appear to have same content); but, I really wanted the reference to the fourth seal of Revelation to compare to another book I have by William Branham which speaks of something similar as well as other books by different authors of a similar ilk.
Having looked over pp 59-61 on your site, I was intrigued by the 25% "electing to transcend" [p 59] which also parallels another teaching within hyper-charismaticism. Hmmm...
Craig:
Interesting your mentioning of "hypercharismastics".
It put in mind some of the "prophecies" I've seen on the NAR websites that talk about End Times Christians taking on "supernatural bodies" and warring against the enemy using supernatural tools they are empowered with.
I wonder if there's a connection between the NAR prophets and their followers and this "cleansing" that will take place. As in, they will be turning against Christians thinking that they are doing God's work.
The links between the NAR prophets, their visions of what is to come, and the coming deception of the New Age are more than just tenuous, yes?
Found the following article this morning. Anyone know anything about this?
The Lucis Trust behind Occupy Wall street [UPDATED]
I know it sounds crazy, but what i found out about this movement it's just unbelievable.I will try to make this short.On the 15th October 2011 begun the worldwide action. For the first time in history, upwards of 15 million people in sixty countries marched together for a "global change". Their official website is: http://15october.net/
Someone decided to find out who owns that domain name by visiting this site: http://who.godaddy.com/ (This is a database with a searchable list of every single domain currently registered in the world).
As you can see from the printscreen i took, before the 18th October the registrant was "Paulina Arcos866 United Nations PlazaSuite 516New York, New York 10017United States"
>Well... Who the hell is she? I googled her name and i couldn't find many infos, but i found out that she is Francisco Carrion Mena (permanent representative of Ecuador, chairman of the special committee at the UN) 's wife. Okay. I thought i had no more things to discover. The UN were behind this movement, that's it.
Well, i was wrong... While reading a book ("Freemasonry and Secret Societies" by Epiphanius, edition "Controcorrente" April 2008, page 620 ), i found out that the unofficial Lucis Trust's address is: 866 United Nations Plaza New York, and this information appears just on two books: the one i was reading, and on "Die Netzwerke der Insider" by Peter Blackwood.
Wait a minute.... This must be a joke....but here it comes the unbelievable part: On the 19th October, the WHOIS Information is been changed!!! In fact the registrant now is: DomainsByProxy.com15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353Scottsdale, Arizona 85260United States...as you can check here: http://who.godaddy.com/whois.aspx?domain=15october.net&prog_id=GoDadd
And now for an important money part of a whole lot of the NEW AGE MOVEMENT: Drummond Pike and his TIDES FOUNDATION. They help fund the Institute for Noetic Sciences (Paul N. Temple, Edgar Mitchell, Duane Elgin, etc.); Sojourners (Jim Wallis); LORIAN ASSOCIATION (David Spangler) and many, many others. Glenn Beck has to take some credit for bringing this out -- that's why George Soros (a financial contributor to the otherwise wealthy in its own right TIDES FOUNDATION) and Drummond Pike went to such lengths to try and shut Beck off the major media networks. The TIDES FOUNDATION is a large source of funding for OCCUPY WALL STREET and they receive extensive Soros money (as well as from many other sources). They are virtually dedicated to overthrowing our system and the New Age ties from its very beginning in 1976 are more than obvious. By the way, 1975 was the exact year the New Agers were to go public about "Maitreya"/Betraya and the "Masters of Wisdom" and their "Externalisation of the Hierarchy"!
Constance
Anxiety over upcoming test of US emergency system on November 9th...
It's only a test, but nerves are somewhat frayed over the first nationwide exercise of the system designed to alert Americans of national emergencies.
The test occurs at 1900 GMT Wednesday, November 9, and may last over three minutes -- longer than the typical 30 seconds or one minute for most broadcast test messages.
According to a message being circulated by local school and government officials, there is "great concern in local police and emergency management circles about undue public anxiety over this test."
"The test message on TV might not indicate that it is just a test," according to one email being circulated by a Washington area school district.
"Fear is that the lack of an explanation message might create panic. Please share this information with your family and friends so they are aware of the test."
The test is being conducted jointly by the US Department of Homeland Security, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Communications Commission and the National Weather Service.
"We're asking everyone to join us by spreading the word to your neighbors, co-workers, friends and family... please remember: don't stress; it's only a test," FEMA said in a blog post.
The test is part of the Emergency Alert System designed to transmit, via TV and radio, emergency alerts and warnings regarding weather threats, child abductions and other types of emergencies, according to officials.
While state and local tests already take place frequently, a simultaneous, nationwide test of the national EAS "emergency action notification" code has never occurred.
http://tinyurl.com/3fw8w4y
Marko,
You wrote,"The links between the NAR prophets, their visions of what is to come, and the coming deception of the New Age are more than just tenuous, yes?"
Absolutely!
Constance mentions this in her second book A Planned Deception with respect to the Manifested Sons of God (MSoG) doctrine, a teaching obvious in some of the NAR and much more covert in others. Here's a quote by Bill Hamon as used in a recent article on CrossWise:
“…The positive purpose of the R-T [Resurrection-Translation (Rapture)]is to enable the army of the Lord [Joel’s Army, or MSoG militant] to finalize the war against all evil. The army of the Lord will progress on in the war until they have accomplished all they can in their limited mortal bodies. The R-T is for the purpose of immortalizing their bodies. This will remove all the earthly limitations, thereby enabling the saints unlimited abilities. They will be able to travel in all space realms of the heavenlies the same as Jesus and the angels do now. They can move in and out of all dimensions of the natural and spiritual realms as Jesus did in His resurrected flesh-and-bone body.”
My comment: These fully manifested sons of God, or, Joel’s Army, will execute judgment on those who will not go along with their plans. Hamon claims Joel 2:1-11 is a prophecy for this near future ‘army of God.'
“God’s great end-time army is being prepared to execute God’s written Judgments with Christ’s victory and divine judgment decrees that have already been established in heaven. The time is set when they will be administered and executed on earth through God’s saintly army. All that is destined and needed will be activated during God’s restorational Army of the Lord Movement…”
From this article here:
http://tinyurl.com/3lnjmj6
Official press statement of Spanish dictator, Franco, published following Hitler's death.
"Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity. Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler the laurels of Victory."
Constance,
This Catholic-baiting from the previous thread is pretty sick stuff, which belongs on a white supremacist site, not on your site.
Perhaps it is time for you to think about some of the audience you are attracting here and draw a line in the sand.
Yes, Anonymous @ 3:00 PM - I totally agree with you!!!
Personally, I don't believe, given Franco's history, that Franco wrote such a thing. Franco protected Spain's Jews and all other Jews who came to Spanish embassies for sanctuary, leaving orders that they were to be issued Spanish passports immediately. He saved approximately 60,000 Jews and is given credit in the Simon Weisenthal Holocaust Encyclopedia for same. While he was doing this, the USA and Canada would not lift a finger to save the Jews, particularly Blair, the Immigration Commissioner of Canada who said NONE IS TOO MANY.
Constance
I rebutted the Franco - Hitler accusation because it was a blatant lie. It probably did come from a pagan Christian - Jewish bashing Nazi site, and so I am going to take the advice to draw a line in the sand and erase it, but I wanted the record set straight. Franco did not endorse Hitler's Jew murderings and moreover, his Catholicism was attributed as a motive to Franco to protect the Jews.
Constance
Fascinating new article by Herescope on Dominionism with many different ramifications:
http://herescope.blogspot.com/2011/11/dominion-entering-into-new-season.html
...The new shift in focus is on the environment, which is a particularly convenient "crisis" in the wake of many environmental disasters this year...
The article specifically mentions Bill Hamon, Lou Engle, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones and Mike Bickle. For those interested in IHOP, the Lou Engle quote is particularly disturbing:
...The results recorded in Luke show that history changed forever through the strength and victory the Lord gained by His obedience [in the Wilderness]. Divine power was now His!
So, Jesus had to fight for and achieve divine power in the wilderness by conducting "territorial spiritual warfare" wrestling it from Satan?! That's the classic Dominionist position that Adam lost dominion to Satan and Jesus won it back. It also points to potentially a fight to obtain not only sovereignty - which is at odds with Scripture - but, His own omnipotence.
More:
How do they intend to "cleanse" the planet? Employing some extreme allegorizing, Taylor says that in order for the church to "function in Kingdom authority" and "be qualified to rule others" that it needs to "slay all of the inhabitants of that land." What?! He spiritualizes this remark, but only partially because he then resumes his Dominionist call to "rule all nations":
The names of these nations can be related to "the works of the flesh." Thus, we also must first slay the "inhabitants" of our land (carnality) before we will be ready to partake of this promise: "we shall reign on the earth."
To Christine Erikson:
In defense of the pre-trib resurrection and rapture position, I refer you to an article written by Holly Deyo on the website Millennium Ark. It is a summary of the many church writings affirming the pre-trib rapture in the early church. The concept of the pre-trib rapture did not begin with Darby and Margaret in Scotland in modern times.
Holly's article is a great summary. The Deyo site is presents news from a Christian perspective and in particular the scientific work of Holly's husband Stan Deyo.
Her article on the early church's position on the rapture can be found by clicking on one of the archives such as "Spiritual".
To Mariel Note that that is a SUMMARY, and (to be charitable)was
probably presented to her from someone else and she took it at face value.
The plain fact is, that only ONE statement resembling a pre trib rapture can be found in the early
church or later, and that one when read carefully actually doesn't unequivocally take that position. I have been studying this a long, long time.
Now, how can still take the pretrib rapture position, after reading
II Thessalonians 2:1-4? If anything like the pre trib rapture idea existed in those days, it was among heretics so few and disorganized the false teaching was easily shut down quick by St. Paul!
Tell me, do you have any idea what tribulations the early Christians went through? the mass murders and the tortures they suffered rather than worship any of various false gods incl. the emperor?
Why do you think we are so special we would be spared what they weren't? we are called on to run and hide, or stand and die, not expect a rescue! "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." Go find that Scripture
for yourself.
The fact of the matter is that Adolf Hitler, along with Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Martin Borman, Rudolph Hess, and many, many more of the Nazi hierarchy were all members of the Catholic "church." Not one, then or now, has ever been excommunicated. This fact alone speaks volumes. But then again, being baptised into the "faith" made them all "born again Catholics," due entirely to their infant baptism!
I fail to see how it is that when one points out well documented historical facts that makes that person a "Catholic basher."
Constance,
Please see your new commentor named Ray B's further historical revisionism on the previous thread (quoted above). The obvious point is that you have attracted a reader who obviously knows nothing about the New Age movement and its history(including the occult nature of Nazism which you and Dorothy have relentlessly taught) and has either not read your scholarship, or has read it and disregarded it.
The second point is that short of linking to Stormfront, this is about as dangerous as disinformation can get.
Reasonable minds can disagree on certain points but this is disinformation that goes way beyond the pale. It is the other side of the coin of Jew-baiting, and equally as ugly and equally as dangerous.
Finally, Ray B does not believe he is a "Catholic-basher."
Adolf Hitler meeting with Philippe Pétain, Francisco Franco, and Benito Mussolini 1940
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be_Q4XEONfE
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=be_Q4XEONfE
The pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario is based selectively on scriptures saying that it will be a total surprise; but Jesus told his followers to keep watch and what signs to look for. No contradiction exists between the 'surprise' and the 'keep watch' scriptures: Jesus’ return is a surprise for the *unbelieving* world, but not for believers who are aware. He made no mention of any pre-Tribulation rapture when he gave the sequence of events leading to his return on the Mount of Olives (Matt 24,25; Mark 13; Luke 21), but he did warn of persecution. The pre-Tribulation rapture is asserted on the basis of scriptures that are ambiguous, and it is a misleading promise, of "peace, when there is no peace." That was not the experience of the martyrs in the early church, or of those in communist China and North Korea and Islamic lands today. God guides his people through trouble, not round it. Best book on the subject: First The Antichrist, by Bob Gundry.
"...As it was in the days of Noah..."
It seems to me that Noah rode out
the storm. He and his family literally
rose above it all.
It also strikes me that Lot and his
family were delivered from that
literal firestorm.
Millions of Roman Christians were
martyred in the early church and
millions have been martyred and
are today martyred in various parts
of the world.
Don't forget that there will be
144,000 of the twelve tribes of
Israel during the Tribulation who
will be persecuted and, perhaps,
executed. These are the ones
that the Bible refers to, whom
post-tribers speculate are all the
current Christians.
I don't believe that we are all
going to be martyred before the
second coming.
But I could be wrong.
However far back its origins lie (or not), the pre-Tribulation Rapture could only have become popular in a culture in which the church had forgotten what it is like to be persecuted, and become complacent. It is going to be reminded (by Satan with God's permission, just as in Job 1&2).
to those who make a point of Hitler's membership in the RC, nominal membership means nothing.
The "Hitler was a Catholic" debate is ultimately a debate about the legitimacy or not of baptising babies. Bettter to discuss that IMHO.
Annony 9:57
Please feel free to contact me. (Peacebringer@gmail.com) If you want to discuss matter privately.
This could be a lengthy discussion. I would be interested to know if that was either coming from SOZO (from bethel) or Theophostic at any rate there are issues. 1st the concerning matters.
1. Satan implanting an image. Satan has no need to do that. We take on hurts and pains of own accord. Now, actions we take as result including unforgiveness can have impact. Anything that is not founded on truth we believe can have an impact. Some people are visual and have lasting images. Images/visual memory is even at times pre-cognitive. God can and will do healing over such matters, if we hold to distorted thoughts and images but not “implanted” by satan. Parts of living in the fallen world.
2. Concern over what would involved “listening” prayer. If simply praying and listening to God one thing. If entering into a “meditative” state of emptying, that I would have an issue with. Not sure about there concept of God speaking to heart and what concept of heart they are going with.
Now what you are talking about is not necessarily Jungian, although may be rooted in some of those principles. If you want to discuss matters in more detail drop me an email.
Paul
I tend to lean towards post-trib. But I don't believe everyone will be martyred. In a pre-trib scenario - if all true believers are taken, then doesn't that leave only non-believers? Who will help convert them? There will be many converted, but I don't think all will be as a result of God's wrath.
The Bible speaks of those "who endure to the end." So, I believe many will help save others before they are martyred and many will be saved by the true believers who are still here.
I think pre-tribbers are in for a big surprise. I do not consider this to be an issue of anyone's salvation, just my thoughts.
Hi Christine. I'd like to defend Holly Deyo's article which contains summaries and quotes from early Church Fathers on the "rapture" or "catching away", including the seminal use of the word "rapture" by one of them. Holly is a scholar, not just a poster of news.
I am not sure and never have been sure that there will be a rapture. But I can think of more reasons for there being a rapture than there not being one.
My foremost reason is my observation of the technical skills now extant for brainwashing. I do not think the Lord wants his people brainwashed into accepting the mark of the beast and doing the will of the antichrist forces.
In the past, people could choose martyrdom. I do not think that will remain a possibility. No one will be able to choose, because mankind, in its wickedness, has invented the techniques to enforce compliance. Not just physical, but mental compliance.
This was hinted at presciently by Orwell in his novel "1984". He may not have known the exact techniques which would accomplish it, but he could see what was coming.
I am not a scientist but I live in one of the foremost science communities in America, and I get the picture. Like Orwell, I don't see the particulars, but I see the outlines.
This is the primary horror of the New Age. They will force compliance. They will call it forcing
concensus.
I could go on but won't take up more space now.
P.S. to my last comment. I first heard the phrase "forcing consensus" from my new dept. head at Seattle Community College about thirty years ago (hard to realize it's that long). She bragged in a faculty meeting that she could always 'force consensus". I must have looked at her with astonishment, because she looked back at me defiantly. There was nothing to say. There was plenty to realize. This was a person who had little regard for the business we were in, the promulgation of "The Humanities". To her, education was a business which could be manipulated for her goals. Her goals were not
the ones we traditionally had known. They were to manipulate herds, starting with us, down through students and the world. The other faculty members did not get it, at all. At that point, I became cut off from everyone there and just did my thing as much as I was allowed. This corresponded with the time I exited the New Age, outside of college.
I am sorry to report that I had taught somewhat in the spirit of the New Age, myself. Then I realized what I was doing. Among the books I discussed with students was "1984" and "Brave New World". And other "utopias" and "dystopias". But when I realized the underlying agenda of that part of the New Age--for it has several parts, not all as sinister as others--I realized that some of my students who were Christians understood the world better than I did. Amazing grace.
I have to defend some New Agers who are not of the Barbara Marx Hubbard ilk. Some are like I was, much more "well meaning" in our Christian sense. Some of them are very nice people who don't yet "get it."
Constance:
Are your book-writing days over?
I really think a case could be made to write a new one, pulling together some of the research that has been done over the years since your last one, and showing what is going on currently.
Specifically, I'm thinking that connections could be made between the research you've done (especially what you just mentioned about the Tides Foundation and Soros and their link to the Occupy movements), the research that Herescope is doing (NAR movement and Rick Warren and the current direction of the evangelical churches), and all the 2012 New Age / Mayan / planetary shift stuff that's out there, including Maitreya's messages about the Sword of Cleavage, etc. Kind of a "Coming age of barbarism, part 2".
There are common threads that run through them all, and I think you would be good at pulling them all together for maybe "one last warning" to those who will listen.
Craig, JD, and others who are really doing lots of their own research.... maybe they can help?
I'm just thinking out loud I guess. I just have this renewed sense of the dangers that lie just ahead, and think a book would be a good way to warn others. Or maybe a movie. :^)
11-11-11: 13 Mayan elders are headed for LA for a crystal skull celebration.
On 11:11:11, a group of thirteen Mayan Elders will arrive in LA from the Mayalan...d to come together in a Gateway Event that will be highlighted by the performance of the Mayan Crystal Skull Ceremony. The Elders, whose traditions have always been kept within their inner circle, have been instructed to perform all of their ceremonies in public from this point on; for this reason, the Ceremony of the Thirteen Crystal Skulls, a ceremony that was last performed 26,000 years ago, will be open to the general public.
Enroute from New York to Los Angeles the Elders will stop at specific power points to fulfill a prophecy which states that the time has come to reawaken the Spirit of the North American Continent so that it can reclaim itself as the sacred ground in whose soil would be sown the seeds for the enlightenment of all mankind. At each stop along the way ceremonial gatherings will be held to open the ground and raise the ancient energies that will fuel the Gateway Event in Los Angeles on 11:11:11. All of these gatherings will be open to anyone who feels called to participate.
For those of you who are unfamiliar with the significance of the Thirteen Crystal Skulls, these ancient relics are said to contain information about the history of our planet and the future of mankind. Carved out of pure quartz crystal, and other crystals such as jade, the Skulls generate an energy field that activates human consciousness in a way that expands our perceptions of reality. Ultimately they are the manifestation of Spirit in a form that is now helping to shift the magnetic frequency of Mother Earth. When the Spirits of the Skulls are ceremonially awakened, ancient wisdom, wisdom that has been preserved in a crystalline matrix for eons, enters the unified field and fills the collective consciousness with all the knowledge of everything that has happened on the planet in the last 26,000 years, and perhaps beyond. (By Cal Garrison)
More here:
http://www.cosmicmysteries.com/journey
Regarding pre-trib/mid-trib/post trib controversies, I found the following article pretty helpful, which my pastor sent out to us recently. Although I had been post-trib before, after reading all of this, it made a lot of sense in terms of validating the pre-trib position. Pay particular attention to whom the "Elect" refer to in MAtthew 24:21. It is the Jews of the 12 tribes, not the Christians that Jesus was referring to. That's important. In case you decide not to read these 13 reasons that support pre-trib, at least keep the last paragraph in mind. It says:
Whether or not you believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture will not affect where you’ll ultimately end up. If you’re a believer, you’ll be in heaven no matter what position you hold. But your viewpoint concerning the Rapture very definitely affects how you live your life this side of eternity. If you do not believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture, you cannot look for Jesus Christ because, according to your eschatological viewpoint, Antichrist must appear first. Therefore, you find yourself scanning the news, checking out current events, watching the global scene for Antichrist rather than for Jesus. And this puts believers in a “survivalist” mentality. “We’re going through the Tribulation,” they say. “We better get ready.” Is this what Jesus meant? Does He want us storing gold and guns? Or does He want us living every day in hopeful anticipation that today could be the day we go to heaven?
“I want you looking for Jesus every day,” John said, “because he who has the hope of the imminent, sudden appearing of Christ and the Rapture of the church purifies himself” (see 1 John 3:3). That is why I believe your view on the Rapture is of utmost importance. Live in constant expectancy of Jesus’ return. Be watching and be ready."
To be con't
Pre-Trib points:
The Book of Acts tells us the Berean believers were more noble than their neighbors in Thessalonica because the Bereans searched the Scriptures to validate what Paul taught them (17:11). So, too, I want our church family to be able to say, “Here’s why we believe what we do.” To this end, I would like to submit to you thirteen reasons why I believe the church will be raptured before the Tribulation.
“Well, I have friends who say the church will go through the Tribulation. Why get all concerned about this issue?” you might say. The answer is because one’s view on Bible prophecy and the timing of the Rapture will affect the way one lives out his faith. Why does the debate continue concerning the timing of this event? It is due to misunderstanding in three areas:
The Elect
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21, 22
On the basis of this verse, people say “Aha! Here we see the elect in the Tribulation”—failing to realize that the term “elect” refers to three groups of people: Christians (Colossians 3:12), Israel (Isaiah 45:4), and those who will be saved in the Tribulation (Matthew 24:21, 22).
To which of the elect does Jesus refer in Matthew 24:21? I believe the answer lies in the verse preceding it.…
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day. Matthew 24:20
Even to this day, transportation in Israel is shut down on the Sabbath. Since the Sabbath means nothing to Gentile nations, the application to Israel is clear.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect”s sake those days shall be shortened.
The final three -and -one-half years after Antichrist reveals his true nature in the temple and the Jews flee to the wilderness will be a time of disaster, destruction, and death unlike any other in history. Here, Jesus is saying that unless the days were shortened, no one would survive them. The entire world would be annihilated. But God will shorten those days for the elect’s sake. And here is where controversy arises.
There are those who say that since the church is called “the elect,” the church must be in the Tribulation period. Mark this down, students of prophecy: In passages such as Isaiah 45:4; 65:9; and Romans 11:28, God specifically calls Israel “His elect.” It’s not just Christians who are called “the elect.” In fact, there are three groups in the Bible who are called by that name: Israel, the church, and those saved in the Tribulation. Keep in mind that in verses 15–36—with references to Judaea, the Sabbath, and the temple—Jesus is still speaking to Israel.[1]
But we have to remember that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was speaking to Israel in the end times. The Greek word translated elect also means chosen, so the Jews are God’s elect as well. This is also true in Matt. 24:22 where the Lord promised to bring the Great Tribulation to a close “for the sake of the elect”. Although He intends to completely destroy the nations among which His people have been scattered, He will not destroy Israel but will only discipline them (Jeremiah 30:11).
(to be con't)
Pre-trib points continued:
ALSO - There is another way to see this, not a contradiction but a complement. Consider this article: Often the Bible will refer to Christian believers as “the elect,” meaning that they are individuals who have chosen of their own free will to accept God’s amazing free gift of salvation through Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; John 15:16; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:10; II Thessalonians 2:13; II John 1:1, 13).
Thus, anyone who is a true follower of Christ is part of the “elect.”
Therefore, believers who will be Raptured to Heaven just before the Great Tribulation begins will be a part of the “elect.” Then immediately afterwards, during the Great Tribulation, new believers in Christ Jesus (i.e., the “tribulation saints,” including the 144,000 Jews) will also become part of the “elect” group of true believers.
The Bible informs us that some of those new tribulation saints will be executed by the Antichrist and then resurrected into Heaven immediately after the Great Tribulation is concluded.
However, new believers, including the 144,000 Jews, who are not executed by the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation will be “sealed” by God to protect them during the great and terrible Day of the Lord which will begin immediately after the Great Tribulation is over.
to be con't
Pre-trib points continued:
The TrumpetsIn a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52
On the basis of this verse, people say, “Aha! According to Revelation 11, the seventh, or last trump signaling the Rapture, will take place midway through the Tribulation.” But wait a minute. The seventh trumpet of Revelation 11 is sounded by angels, whereas 1 Thessalonians 4:16 makes it clear that the last trump is sounded by God.
In Exodus 19, God sounded the first trump when the Jews were gathered at the foot of Mount Sinai to hear the law. The last trump will sound when the church is gathered to meet the Lord in the air and taken to heaven. Thus, the Jews hear the first trump; the church hears the last. The following thirteen reasons are why I believe this trump of God will sound before the Tribulation.…
1. The doctrine is to be a comforting one (1 Thessalonians 4:18). The belief that the Rapture happens after or in the middle of the Tribulation is anything but comforting because it means believers must endure unbelievable agony before they are taken to heaven.
2. The Tribulation is the outpouring of the wrath of the Lamb—and God has not appointed us to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9–11). The wrath that should have been hurled at you and poured out on me was absorbed by our Hero, our Lord, our Savior on the Cross of Calvary.
3. Rapture before the Tribulation is illustrated in Genesis 19, where we see angels delivering Lot and his family before the destruction of Sodom. How do I know this is a picture of the Rapture? Because in reference to this, Peter writes, “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations” (2 Peter 2:9). The word translated “temptations” is the same word translated “tribulation.”
4. Rapture before the Tribulation is illustrated in Enoch, who was taken to heaven prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:24). “Wrong analogy,” some protest. “The correct picture is Noah who went through the tribulation of the Flood.” But wait a minute. Noah is not a picture of the church, but of Israel, who will indeed go through the Tribulation—and will at last come to Jesus as a result.
5. Rapture before the Tribulation is illustrated in Daniel 3. When Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego refused to worship Nebuchadnezzar, they were thrown into a fiery furnace. But where was their friend Daniel? Either he did, indeed, bow to Nebuchadnezzar—which is completely contrary to the rest of the book—or, his omission is in itself a picture of the Rapture. Bible scholars believe that, very likely, he was away on official business as an emissary. All we know with certainty, however, is that he was taken out of the scene.
6. Jesus told us to pray that we would be raptured before the Tribulation. In speaking of the Tribulation in His Olivet Discourse, Jesus said, “Watch and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things” (see Luke 21:36). How are we accounted worthy? One way: We are worthy because of what Jesus did for us on the Cross of Calvary.
to be con't
Pre-trib points con't
7. Pre-Tribulation Rapture makes sense historically and scripturally. In accordance with Jewish custom, when a man came of age to marry, he would add a room on to his father’s house for himself and his bride. When the addition was complete, and when the father gave the go-ahead, a trumpet would sound, and the bridegroom would go to meet his bride. Following the wedding ceremony, the bridegroom would take his bride to his father’s house, where they would be tucked away for seven days in the newly completed “bridal suite.” At the end of seven days, the bridegroom would come out with his bride and introduce her to the community.
That’s exactly what’s going to happen with us. Jesus, our Bridegroom, is preparing a place for us in heaven, His Father’s house (John 14:2). At the appointed time known only by the Father, a trumpet will sound and Jesus will meet us, His bride, in the air to escort us up to the “Bridal Suite” He has prepared for us. We will remain with Him in heaven for seven years before we are presented to the world, where we will rule and reign with Him.
8. Pre-Tribulation Rapture follows the outline of the Book of Revelation. If you don’t embrace a Pre-Tribulation view, your understanding of Revelation becomes as twisted as a pretzel because you’ve got to put chapters 4 and 5 after chapter 11, if you hold to a Mid-Tribulation stance; after chapter 19 if you take a Post-Tribulation point of view. Only a Pre-Tribulation placement of the Rapture allows for a consistent flow of the Book of Revelation.
9. Pre-Tribulation Rapture allows for the conditional aspect of the Tribulation. To the church at Thyatira, Jesus said, “If you don’t repent, you will experience Tribulation” (see Revelation 2:22). If the Rapture won’t occur until after the Tribulation, what would be the reason for this warning of Jesus?
“Well, didn’t Jesus say in this world we would have tribulation?” you ask.
Yes, but the crushing the believer goes through in the world is from Satan. The Tribulation of chapters 6–19, on the other hand, is from God as He pours out His wrath on a Christ-rejecting world. Folks, God will not allow anyone to get hit from both sides. If we experience tribulation in the world because of our faith, we will not experience the Tribulation of those who have none.
10. Pre-Tribulation Rapture allows for the unknown time of the Lord’s return. According to Daniel’s prophecy, three and a half biblical years (a Biblical year being three hundred sixty days) from the day Antichrist enters the temple and demands worship midway through the Tribulation, the Lord will return. Consequently, if believers were on earth during the Tribulation, they would be able to predict the exact time of the Second Coming—three and a half biblical years, or forty-two months, or one thousand two hundred sixty days after Antichrist enters the temple. The problem is, 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and Matthew 24:36 make it clear that no one knows the hour of His coming. Therefore, it follows that believers must be absent at this time.
to be con't
Pre -trib points
11. The Tribulation is unnecessary for the church. Referred to as the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Tribulation targets Israel, for through it she will be awakened and at last see Jesus as the Messiah (Deuteronomy 4:29, 30). The promises God made to Abraham and to the Jewish people have not been forgotten, gang. God will work with Israel in the days of the Tribulation. He will make Himself known to them—and they shall indeed be saved.
12. Pre-Tribulation Rapture squares with the prophecy of Daniel. At the end of Daniel 9, Daniel was given the timetable for all of Jewish history in units of heptads, or weeks. It is clear from this all-important passage of Scripture that the sixty-nine weeks of Daniel refer to the time between the commandment to rebuild the temple, given in 445 B.C. by Artaxerxes, and the coming of Messiah, fulfilled perfectly on Palm Sunday when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. But Daniel was also told, “Seventy weeks are determined upon Israel.” To what does the seventieth week of Daniel refer? To the Tribulation. You see, the seventy weeks of Daniel refer to Israel. The church was not present for the first sixty-nine weeks. And the seventieth week doesn’t begin until after the church is raptured. In other words, if the church was not present in the first sixty-nine weeks, why would she be present in the last week? She won’t. She’ll be in heaven.
Those are twelve reasons I believe the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation. But the most important one is the following:
A Pre-Tribulation Rapture viewpoint makes one seek first the kingdom. “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing” (Matthew 24:45, 46). Who is the one who will have authority and purpose in eternity? He who is watching for Jesus’ coming. But this is impossible for those who believe the Tribulation precedes the Rapture because they must first watch for Antichrist, then the rebuilding of the temple, and finally the Abomination of Desolation when Antichrist demands to be worshiped as God.
Two factors kept the early church on fire: the empowering of the Holy Ghost and the belief that Jesus would return during their lifetime. “But He didn’t come back in their day,” you say. And you’re right—but do you think those early believers are in heaven now, saying, “We didn’t get bogged down in materialism or trivial pursuits. We sought the Lord. We witnessed fervently. We lived for the kingdom. If only we knew He wasn’t coming, we could have played more racquetball”? No! They’re ecstatic that they chose to do what Jesus says to do in every generation—to watch, to be ready, to live for His coming.
Finally:
Whether or not you believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture will not affect where you’ll ultimately end up. If you’re a believer, you’ll be in heaven no matter what position you hold. But your viewpoint concerning the Rapture very definitely affects how you live your life this side of eternity. If you do not believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture, you cannot look for Jesus Christ because, according to your eschatological viewpoint, Antichrist must appear first. Therefore, you find yourself scanning the news, checking out current events, watching the global scene for Antichrist rather than for Jesus. And this puts believers in a “survivalist” mentality. “We’re going through the Tribulation,” they say. “We better get ready.” Is this what Jesus meant? Does He want us storing gold and guns? Or does He want us living every day in hopeful anticipation that today could be the day we go to heaven?
“I want you looking for Jesus every day,” John said, “because he who has the hope of the imminent, sudden appearing of Christ and the Rapture of the church purifies himself” (see 1 John 3:3). That is why I believe your view on the Rapture is of utmost importance. Live in constant expectancy of Jesus’ return. Be watching and be ready.
end
I suggest reading a bit about the other eschatological (end times) views before fully settling on one of your own. Here are two books which can help in this regard:
A Basic Guide to Eschatology: Making Sense of the Millennium by Millard Erickson
and
The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views by Robert G. Clouse, editor, with contributions by George Eldon Ladd, Herman A. Hoyt, Loraine Boettner and Anthony A. Hoekema
In the latter, each position by the respective contributors are responded to by some the others to counter these views. This enables the reader to see multiple sides to the arguments put forth.
To Anonymous @ 1:53 PM:
Re: If you do not believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture, you cannot look for Jesus Christ because, according to your eschatological viewpoint, Antichrist must appear first. Therefore, you find yourself scanning the news, checking out current events, watching the global scene for Antichrist rather than for Jesus. And this puts believers in a “survivalist” mentality. “We’re going through the Tribulation,” they say. “We better get ready.”
___________________________________
Yet, at the same time, those of you who INSIST there will be a pre-trib Rapture may become so complacent....that you will be disappointed to the extent of possibly losing your faith if this does NOT happen...and we ALL end up having to go through the Tribulation together.
(As Costance has wisely pointed out, Jesus is coming back one more time....not two more times.)
Of course, I believe there will be a Rapture, but only after we ALL go through the Tribulation first.
"Jesus is coming back one more time, not two more times"==a quote from Anonymous attributed to Constance.
In the general description of the rapture, Jesus does not come to the earth proper. He calls forth the dead from his position in the clouds above the earth. He is not seen by everyone, and the trumpet is not heard by all. Then, after raising the dead and calling them to join Him, he changes the living Christians to join the resurrected ones and Himself in the clouds, and from there---I suppose they go to Heaven, although that is not specified.
In the Second Coming, Jesus comes to stand on the earth, at the Mount of Olives, which splits between His feet. Everyone sees him worldwide, we may presume this is by television? Every knee shall bow, even those who have not heretofore known Him. This is in contrast to the rapture, in which only those who have accepted Him as Lord are taken "up".
This is the way it was described to me, in any case, by all those who believe in the pre-trib rapture. Jesus will NOT remain on earth at the rapture. His real "coming" on a permanent basis will occur some years later. Most say seven years or so later. Some argue with this number of years, saying it's shorter or longer between the rapture and the Second Coming. But all agree that He will not be ruling earth with a rod of iron at that time; it's still Satan's world, in spades.
Mariel:
Re: "Everyone sees him worldwide, we may presume this is by television?"
___________________________________
Now, Mariel...you should know better than that. (Constance has written about this.)
New Ager, Pat Robertson made that same mistake on national television back in the 1980's, when he announced that "All eyes shall see Him" meant that we would all see Jesus on television.
The fact is that....
"All eyes shall see Him" means IN the air...not 'ON' the air!!!
Otherwise, we would all be assuming that Jesus would want to 'exclude' those (for example) who live in poverty in third world countries who don't have access to electricity, not to mention a television set???
No, I don't think so....Jesus wants ALL of mankind to see Him when He returns IN the air (not ON the air).
Either way...
Scripture talks about a Second Coming -- but says nothing about a 'Third' Coming.
all your arguments of pre trib rapure are shallow, or involve deftly woven misapplications of irrelevant things in OT as relevant (on a par with how heretics mishandled Scripture in early times), and in the case of flight on the sabbath being relevant to Israel, what of flight during the winter? that also is to be prayed against.
The expectation of Christ like He is due any minute has nothing to do with what He is actually expected to do, rather, it is a state of mind to be kept in order to keep in faith and in good works and be ready for Him when we die, and keep a tradition of this up so that when He DOES come those then will be ready.
All of your arguments fail, because of II Thess and because of the overall picture of Christ's Return in His own words, which has no secret rapture, and because "rapture" isn't about being caught up to STAY there, but is the word related to people coming out of a city to meet a visiting dignitary and ESCORT HIM INTO THE CITY. We
will be caught up in the air to MEET Christ, and will be with Him always and where is that? sitting up there while He rains wrath on the antichrist, all visible and near earth, and then continuing His descent with Him to take over the Earth.
Why is pretrib so damn important to you anyway? it is plain silly. seems to figure a lot with self importance and expertise in prophecy and interpretation, eager to be teachers and leaders, which Paul and John warn against. the sin of pride.
Jesus says until ALL the things He describes happen ALL AT ONCE He won't
be due back, THAT generation will see His return. It might be that the upcoming devastations on earth from crustal displacement are a part of this, they certainly fit the scene right after the four horsemen, but it might be that since there is quiet after that, for a while, that the antichrist and the Second Coming won't happen
until much much later.
Of course the NAM is writing up disasters as relating to a shift in consciousness, typical of demons wanting us to not prepare.
Now when Christ warns against lack of watchfulness, He warns against what this leads to. The steward who begins to get drunk with his fellow servants and beat them and so forth, because he figures "my lord delays his coming," and the stupid virgins who had no extra oil, and this strange story makes sense, if you consider according to one exegesis, that these are the NOMINAL Christians all those who don't know Jesus from Adam but are members of some church and think only of themselves and going to a party, they do not care about the person the party is about, nor does it cross their minds to concern themselves with anything but mere formal membership in a church or being listed on the census as "Christian" because well,
let's see, it isn't politically correct enough to be atheist, and the person asked isn't of any other major religion and is American which is a "Christian nation" so that means they should answer "Christian." whatever that adds up to. their actions lifestyle, words, expressed thought on anything, nothing about them would fit biblical descriptions of the Christian.
We must live AS IF not because IT IS the case that Jesus is due back any second.
regarding anything you want to ask yourself, "if Jesus came back right now, would I want Him to catch me
doing this? and if I think He wouldn't mind why is that? how much do I know about His standards and expectations?"
Is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory Biblical?
http://reformedonline.com/view/refo
rmedonline/rapture.htm
Christine,
Heresies are like bacteria that can cause epidemics: they are ubiquitous but usually affect only a tiny minority. More interesting is the study of why a particular heresy or epidemic takes off when and where it does. The pre-tribulation Rapture is a case in point. Such a claim of 'peace, when there is no peace' (to borrow Jeremiah's phrase) could only have become popular in a culture wherein the church had grown complacent. It could never have taken off amid the persecution endured by the early church - and in view of the absence of any explicit verse of scripture expounding it, it is not part of apostolic Christianity.
Someday the church will be purified by persecution. Let us pray that those who have been fooled by the doctrine of the pre-tribulation Rapture will not fall away as the persecution worsens and they remain in the world.
Christine, you are so right about the rapture not being seen on TV. That would leave out those who don't have access. It must be a mystery how all can see Him at once. Lots of mysteries.
You ask why am I personally hoping for the rapture?
Well, it's selfish, of course. I want to escape the pain and misery I now am in. I have three rare blood disease, and one of them makes it hard for me to take treatment for the others. I have to worry doctors constantly about this and eventually get fed up with what's gone on now for 63 years. It alienated my first husband and my parents and my son--I had one person who really loved me and he is in Heaven. I would be glad to just die and go there, but I may not do so soon. I just want to go Home. Pretty simple, huh? But I have no sure expectations of that.
My beliefs have nothing at all to do with pride in my ability to study or interpret prophecy. I lost pride in intellectualism about 17 years of age when I got Porphyria. I was at Stanford, a very good scholar, and got cut down big time and very cruelly. I have no use at present for this world, and certainly hold those who trust their intellects in some contempt--but actually I pray for them, knowing so many, especially in my family. I am alone. I don't want to be alone any more.
mariel
The Catholics would argue vis a vis infant baptism that it is equivalent to making the same covenant with God as the Jews did using circumcision on new born male babies. There was no free choice for the infant there either. Later in life they had "bar mitzvah" and now for the girls "bat mitzvah" to demonstrate mature choice and commitment. The Catholics would argue that their "confirmation" serves the same function.
Constance
Well, it would be very nice for the Pre-trib folks to be nice and I pray for same, but I am desperately afraid that many will lose their faith and think the whole thing is baloney if persecution comes before they are raptured out of here. The important message is TRUST GOD NO MATTER HOW IT COMES DOWN -- HE'S GOT THE BIG PICTURE, WE'VE GOT THE LITTLE PICTURE. NO MATTER HOW IT ULTIMATELY TRANSPIRES IT IS IN HIS PERFECT WILL AS HE SEEKS TO SAVE AS MANY AS WILL BE SAVED BEFORE THE ULTIMATE WITHDRAWING OF GOD'S CONVICTING HOLY SPIRIT OCCURS.
Constance
Constance,
I'm the guy who said that the "Hitler is a Catholic" debate is ultimately a debate about the merits of infant baptism (since he was baptised as one), to which your comment at 5.21pm is presumably a response.
I am not a Catholic but I would never tar Catholicism by stating that Hitler was one; he never practised Christianity of any sort when in power, and his interest in the Catholic church was entirely as a political entity. On the other hand, the Catholic church did assert its authority over mediaeval persons who had been baptised as babies, and it can't have it both ways.
You suggest that the Catholic defence of paedobaptism is an analogy with the circumcision of Jewish babies. I would say that this is the point where the analogy between Christianity and Judaism breaks down. Apostolic Christianity is a voluntary, opt-in religion of faith. Judaism is an opt-out religion, involving the keeping of laws.
That is why I am for believers' baptism, although I welcome debate conducted in good faith. I'm sure that there are good debates online between committed Christians who are for and against paedobaptism. In book form, there is "Infant Baptism under cross-examination" by David Pawson (anti) and Colin Buchanan (pro).
Dear Mariel (@ 5:21 PM):
May God bless you. I am so sorry to hear that you have had so many health problems and family issues.
Please never give up, and just keep close to Jesus. He will continue to watch over you.
Meanwhile, I will keep you in my prayers - and I am sure others on Constance's blog will do the same.
P.S. Although some of us may have our differences here, it is never personal.
I found this link which really seems to tie together the occupy movement with the New Age of Aquarius movement.
http://www.3ho.org/
To Anonymous @ 6:30 PM
Re: "...I am for believers' baptism, although I welcome debate conducted in good faith."
___________________________________
We Catholics believe in infant baptism, because Baptism removes the stain of original sin inherited from Adam and Eve.
Without being baptized, one can not enter Heaven. Why wait until a Christian is 'old enough' to make that decision? Since one can never assume that a person will not die in the meantime, why would anyone want to take that risk?
The Catholic Church teaches that Baptism is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons.
Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39).
We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).
These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
paedo baptism theory held by the Lutherans, is that the child is too young to reject the grace in baptism.
godparents and supposedly parents are supposed to make sure the grace implanted develops.
BUT....even as an adult who is baptized can fall away, so can a child. and too often it is all just a cultural thing you do to be acceptable and don't really believe but put on a different face in other circumstances, much like the adults do.
penance is for sins after baptism.
but the penance isn't worth much, rarely involves anything that would expose one to public knowledge or censure, all too private, totally unlike the early church. This I see as a problem in RC and EO.
I do know this, baptism must put some kind of a mark of God on you, for three reasons. 1. am ex Christian turned satanist complained online of being unable to get rid of the invisible cross on his forehead or something. 2. a girl kidnapped by fairies and observed but rescue either failed or not attempted, was in a kind of trance, but had the cross on her forehead. 3. unbaptized babies fat and blood was at a premium for medieval and later devil worshippers.
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
John 3:5 (KJV)
To the paedobaptists here:
Scripture contains not one clear baptism of a baby.
The references in scripture to household baptisms still mean that each person has to be baptised - or not.
Everybody in scripture who was baptised HAD REPENTED first. That is the key point. Babies cannot repent.
St Paul says that children are sanctified by the faith of their parents (1 Cor 7:14). When they grow up sufficient to understand the meaning of repentance, they lose that covering and they have the choice of repentance and baptism.
We are discussing what should be the norm here. There are exceptions, eg the thief on the cross, who wasn't baptised but will make it to heaven despite "unless a man is born again of water and Spirit.."
Baby baptism is, in practice, baptism into a so-called 'Christian culture' rather than into Christ.
Some protestants line up with Rome on this issue, some (like me) don't. I welcome good-faith debate.
Mariel,
I pray that the Holy Spirit fills you with the knowledge and sense that you are not alone and never will be alone.
If we abide in Jesus, and he in us, then we are never alone, even when we feel that we are. Read the words of Jesus, who prayed this prayer (and it is not a prayer that went unanswered!) in John 17. Jesus talks about being removed from suffering in this world vs. remaining in this world. I hope you find encouragement from the lips of Jesus:
John 17
Jesus Prays to Be Glorified
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
[Sat, Nov. 5]
When Jesus said these words:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5
Jesus did not say that this message was for 'adults only' - but meant it for each and every one of us (man, woman, and CHILD).
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
Matthew 19:14
Constance,
Please check ypur spam.
Anon@9.21pm,
When Jesus said that, He was addressing adults, and arguably he spoke about adults, using the phrase 'unless a man' which implies adulthood but includes women, if you look closely at Genesis 1&2. In any case if you are going to elevate John 3:5 to a no-excpetions rule then it fails for the thief on the cross. St Paul told the Corinthians that children of believers were sanctified by their parents' faith, so they are saved until they reach the age at which they are capable of understanding repentance. At that point they should be offered informed choice of baptism.
Marko, I agree with your post-would be lovely to have all the info together in one book. But wow it will be a huge task. Already Constance has blessed so many of us with her research and is still doing so with her blog. I somehow think time is so limited-as if events are compounding in their urgency.
In our little town the New Age view is close to the mainstream view of life- It is distressing to see how the churches keep themselves occupied with the experiential and contemplative ignoring ANY form or shape of prophecy. It just makes me think that that despite the knowledge of Scriptures, the Pharisees and `clergy` 2000 years ago did not spend a minute on the predictions pointing to their Savior `s birth-only two people(that we know of) watched the
signs. Is is not the same today? The mainstream clergy do not say much-
Maranatha
melinda
I just thank God that I had my children baptized when they were infants.
Why would I want to 'gamble' with their eternal life?
I mean - the very fact that this is even up for debate on this blog, in the first place, means there are doubts among you.
So why would anyone be willing to take the chance that their infant might not live (through unforeseen unfortunate circumstances) to be old enough to make an informed decision?
Jesus made an exception for the thief on the Cross, because of extraordinary circumstances on that day when He died for the sins of all mankind.
Now, the New Age Movement has infiltrated many of the Christian churches and is even offering ideas like "12 reasons why Baptism is not necessary for salvation."
I say, believe this at your own risk as it's spiritually dangerous to accept this new way of thinking.
Steady on, Anon@9.08am, were the radical Reformers of the 16th century, who insisted that baptism was for believers only, New Age?
Anon@8.46am, please read what I posted (twice!) above, about St Paul stating that children were covered by their parents' faith up to the age of responsibility. I'm not giving the verse reference this time in order to encourage you to see what has already been written on this thread.
Can anybody deny that the baptism of babies is the baptism of unbelievers?
As I said in my 8:46 AM post:
The very fact that this is even up for debate on this blog, in the first place, means there are doubts among you.
Anon@8.46am,
Your side of the debate has yet to prove here even that the apostolic church baptised babies. I regret your questioning the good faith of those who disagree with you.
Question: "What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"
Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately A.D. 30. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism...
Continued on link below.
http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html
Since people here are having biblical discussions, I wonder if someone can help me with this one.
Someone in an earlier comment mentioned the thief on the cross in Luke that asked Jesus to remember him in heaven. Then Jesus said "This day you will be with me in paradise". I noticed that the only other gospel that mentions the demeanor of the two thieves is Matthew. Yet Matthew's gospel claims that both thieves made fun of Jesus' divinity. So the two gospels contradict each other! I feel that Luke's recount is very moving and inspiring, yet it also seems to indicate that the rapture belief is not biblical truth either since the thief will be with Jesus that very day in heaven- a contradiction of the rapture doctrine where the dead will rise at the rapture. I know Luke used second hand accounts, so should we just disregard his story of the thief on the cross , since Matthew's account contradicts it?
Would love people's thoughts here, Catholic, Protestant and evangelical.
Truth-seeker
Truth-seeker,
Two possibilities:
1. If one of a group of men starts shouting at you in the street, you later say that they (plural) shouted at you even though only one of them did. Matthew's account could be like that.
2. One of the thieves at first joined the other in insulting Jesus, then repented. Matthew records the earlier part of the conversation and Luke the later. Neither gospel claims explicitly to have recorded the entire conversation.
Constance said ...
"I rebutted the Franco - Hitler accusation because it was a blatant lie. It probably did come from a pagan Christian - Jewish bashing Nazi site, and so I am going to take the advice to draw a line in the sand and erase it, but I wanted the record set straight. Franco did not endorse Hitler's Jew murderings and moreover, his Catholicism was attributed as a motive to Franco to protect the Jews."
Constance
9:22 PM
It’s pretty interesting that you would make the claim that I posted something from a “pagan – Jewish bashing Nazi site” without having any basis whatsoever for your claim. The statement that I quoted was in fact published in all of the Spanish Newspapers on May 3, 1945 ; just days after Hitler’s death. Franco was a totalitarian dictator that had complete control over Spain’s newspapers. Had he not approved of this statement, it would never have appeared in print.
Furthermore, your statement seems to imply that Franco was an opponent of Hitler. Nothing could be further from the truth. At the start of the Spanish Civil War in 1936, Franco appealed to Hitler and Mussolini for help in the war effort. Hitler and Mussolini supplied personnel, tanks, aircraft, and artillery. Not only that, the Nazi government organized a German military unit called the 'Condor Legion' the size of which varied between 5,000 and 10,000 men that fought on Franco's side. Franco remained very friendly with both Hitler and Mussolini up until the time it was apparent that the war was lost. It was only then that Franco made his overtures to British PM Churchill. From the very beginning, Franco's regime enjoyed the enthusiastic support of the Spanish Catholic Church.
Franco was a very brutal, mass-murdering dictator. Estimates run as high as 100,000 murders of his countrymen at the hands of his regime. Franco’s government had another very peculiar crime; the mass kidnapping of children, where estimates run as high as 30,000. For an account of this crime, check out this story as it appeared in a Barcelona newspaper:
http://www.barcelonareporter.com/index.php?/news/comments/franco_dictatorship_1936_-_1975_looking_for_the_stolen_children_of_spain/
Your statement that it was Franco’s “Catholicism” which provided his “motive … to protect the Jews” is, in my opinion, very convoluted logic at best. If it was the 'Catholic' Franco that acted to heroically “protect the Jews,” what was it that "motivated" Franco to murder and kidnap en masse? You can’t have it both ways. This was a very evil man. The statement that I quoted that was made upon Hitler’s death should not come as any surprise whatsoever. I would appreciate it if you would take the time to consider what you are saying before you accuse a brother in Christ as someone that would post material from a "pagan ... Jewish bashing Nazi site."
Christine E @3:56
I couldn't disagree with you more.
Your rebuttal of the pre-trib comments
by Anon. @ 1:36, 1:45, 1:47,1:49,
1:51 &1:53, were, I think, emotionally
based.
He or she used the scriptures and you
used the "I've been studying this a long
time" card.
In fact, weighing those comments
against yours makes me lean toward the
pre-tribulation view even more.
_But I could be wrong.
If we are here on earth when the A.C
is finally revealed and comes out in
the open, then we could know exactly
when Christ would return to earth,
and we could know exactly when the
great "catching-away" will occur.
But that's not how it will work.
Just like Noah and just like Lot and
just like Enoch, we will be translated
just before the Trouble comes.
Hasn't there been enough persecution
in the last 2000 years already?
Isn't there enough martyrdom going
on right now ?
It's "open season" on Christians right
now in a number of countries; most
recently Nigeria, but also Sudan, Egypt,
China, and many others.
The picture of Noah riding in an ark
( ark of safety ) above the judgment
of mankind is pretty clear to me.
But I could be wrong and please don't
take this as an insult.
God bless you.
____________________________________
Anonymous @ 2:05 (Truth Seeker)
I've long believed that the statement
that Jesus made to the repentant
man on the cross next to him, simply
has a comma in it that shouldn't be there.
Thus, instead of; "Verily I say unto you,
today you shall be with me in Paradise.",
It should read: "Verily I say unto you today,
you shall be with me in Paradise."
I don't think the original Aramaic had
commas at all, or quotation marks, and
that little comma changes the whole sense
of the statement.
But I could be wrong.
For Truth-seeker,
I'll address the two respondents in answering your question.
Paul,
You are at least partially correct. The original language of the NT was Greek and there were no punctuation marks whatsoever which made it a real challenge for translators.
As to the thief on the Cross, Anon 3:32 is correct with #2 as the Luke account complements the Matthew [27:38] (and Mark 15:27) by adding detail the two other Synoptics do not. However, note that neither the Matthew nor the Mark make a statement that either thief/robber make any comments about Jesus at all as this is only in the Luke account.
And, Paul,
Recall the Apostle Paul in Philippians 1:21-22:
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
and also keep in mind Luke 16:22-24:
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
I see I left off the most important verse in Philippians:
23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. [NKJV]
By now, can there be any doubt that Occupy Wall Street, Occupy the World, and the rest were / are thoroughly New Age operations?
I, for one, have none!
Constance
To John Rupp: The 3HO group and site has been a long time part of the New Age Movement and its networks. I believe I referred to it in my first book, HIDDEN DANGERS.
Looks like just about all the New Agers have come out to play on this one -- Occupy the World!
Constance
I just checked my spam box as requested -- it was empty!
Constance
Franco was no angel to be sure, but he did overtly act LONG BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE DID to protect the Jews that he could. He was up against some pretty rough actors. Don't forget: the ones Franco was fighting were burning down churches and monasteries with worshipers and religious in them.
Constance
To Ray B:
I just found this and I will have to do more research of my own in light of it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/20/franco-gave-list-spanish-jews-nazis
Constance
If I could make a suggestion: An excellent study tool is what is known as harmony of the Gospels which takes similar passages and groups them together. The NIV Study Bible has one of these (in my copy is near the very end of the Gospel of Johns) and so does Strong's Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible in the "Additional Features" section as a sort of appendixes. These put the Gospels in four columns with the subject on the left and corresponding book/chapter/verses next to it.
Even better are full-length books which are complete with the full texts. I found one used here locally by Orville E. Daniel which puts everything in chronological order. It's quite useful!
The Roman Catholic Church in Spain in the 1930s was as political as it had been anywhere and if you go into politics then you can't claim exemption from its rules, which unhappily include war. Playing the religion card only when it suits you is hypocritical. Jesus Christ explicitly declined to go into politics - it came to him rather than vice-versa.
Not that I approve of the atrocities committed by the communists, and I would rather have lived under Franco. The Catholic Church in Spain should have had its wings clipped in the way King Henry VIII did.
Craig,
You wrote:
"neither the Matthew nor the Mark make a statement that either thief/robber make any comments about Jesus at all as this is only in the Luke account."
See Matt 27:44.
Anon 6:44,
Yes, you are correct! I missed it as I didn't see it in the first context of the robbers/thieves in Matthew. Thanks for the correction.
This then is an example in which the Gospel writers put things in different order. We must keep in mind that these were written years after the fact.
But, this does not mean these two accounts are in opposition to one another, of course.
Thanks Paul and Craig and anonymous for your answers.
I'll accept that the one thief repented as he was suffering. I personally feel most repentant about things i have done when I am deathly sick so that makes sense. And yes the comma would change everything.
Thanks again,
Truth Seeker
The best way to compare various versions (translations) of passages of the Bible is to go to the following website:
http://www.biblegateway.com
Type in any passage (e.g. John 3-5 or Luke 23-43).
Then, click on any one of the many versions (e.g. King James, New International, English Standard, New Century, Douay-Rheims, etc.).
Ah, Henry VIII, I'm Henry the 8th I am -- and his State Church founded on his desire to dump his wife and divorce her without good cause -- truly the foundations for real sanctity!!!
Disgusted Catholic
And a real saint, Henry the 8th was - NOT - when he had Thomas More beheaded for refusing to bless his adultery!
Disgusted Catholic
Look at Henry VIII's religious fruits with UNITED RELIGIONS and BISHOP SWING of San Francisco, not to mention their "gay" bishops.
Disgusted Catholic
To Disgusted Catholic:
An adroit change of subject there! What was actually said was that the bloated and wordly Catholic church in Spain needed its wings clipping and that doing it without bloodshed, as Henry VIII did, is better than murdering people like the Spanish communists did. Nobody said that Henry VIII was an angel or raised the question of Anglican legitimacy.
Is this a move towards marginalization of the Catholic Church and the Papacy...If so, why?
Two points need especially to be stressed. First, this may not be a unique case. No one knows for sure, but there are already persistent whispers in diplomatic circles here that as many as 40 countries are considering closing their embassies to the Holy See.
http://www.spiritdaily.com/timestemplate.htm
Given disgusted cat's post, no doubt this is a relevant response at this juncture.
Question: "What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"
Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately A.D. 30. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism...
Continued on link below.
http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html
1:19 PM
Ray B. said...
Anonymous @ 1:19 PM
You are 100% correct. It's interesting that so much of the RCC doctrine, practices, symbology, and dogma is rooted in paganism. The title "Pontiff" is a direct take from paganism that was used exclusively for the pagan high priest of Rome (Pontifex Maximus):
pontiff [ˈpɒntɪf] n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) a former title of the pagan high priest at Rome, later used of popes and occasionally of other bishops, and now confined exclusively to the pope
[from French pontife, from Latin pontifex]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
There is quite a bit more; regarding the "pope's" blasphemous title of the "Holy Father." There is only ONE "HOLY FATHER" and that is God Himself. Furthermore, the "pope" usurps Christ by declaring himself to be the head of the church of Christ ... when it is Jesus Christ himself that the bible declares to be the head of his church. (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18)
The "pope" also claims to have the authority regarding the soals of mankind, when it is God alone that has this sovereign authority. (Romans 9 7-23) I could go on but I'll stop here.
Great post Anonymous!
2:42 PM
CONTINUES...
Question: "What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"
Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately A.D. 30. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism...
Continued on link below.
http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html
1:19 PM
Ray B. said...
Anonymous @ 1:19 PM
You are 100% correct. It's interesting that so much of the RCC doctrine, practices, symbology, and dogma is rooted in paganism. The title "Pontiff" is a direct take from paganism that was used exclusively for the pagan high priest of Rome (Pontifex Maximus):
pontiff [ˈpɒntɪf] n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) a former title of the pagan high priest at Rome, later used of popes and occasionally of other bishops, and now confined exclusively to the pope
[from French pontife, from Latin pontifex]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
There is quite a bit more; regarding the "pope's" blasphemous title of the "Holy Father." There is only ONE "HOLY FATHER" and that is God Himself. Furthermore, the "pope" usurps Christ by declaring himself to be the head of the church of Christ ... when it is Jesus Christ himself that the bible declares to be the head of his church. (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18)
The "pope" also claims to have the authority regarding the soals of mankind, when it is God alone that has this sovereign authority. (Romans 9 7-23) I could go on but I'll stop here.
Great post Anonymous!
2:42 PM
Continues
PARTS OF THREAD POSTED HAVE BEEN DELIBERATELY IMMEDIATELY REMOVED AGAIN!!! Tut, Tut!
Sure, Harry VIII was no saint but compared with Thomas Murderer Moore... !
Question: "What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"
Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately A.D. 30. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity with the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism...
http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/
origin-Catholic-church.html
Ray B. said...
Anonymous @ 1:19 PM
You are 100% correct. It's interesting that so much of the RCC doctrine, practices, symbology, and dogma is rooted in paganism. The title "Pontiff" is a direct take from paganism that was used exclusively for the pagan high priest of Rome (Pontifex Maximus):
pontiff [ˈpɒntɪf] n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) a former title of the pagan high priest at Rome, later used of popes and occasionally of other bishops, and now confined exclusively to the pope
[from French pontife, from Latin pontifex]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
There is quite a bit more; regarding the "pope's" blasphemous title of the "Holy Father." There is only ONE "HOLY FATHER" and that is God Himself. Furthermore, the "pope" usurps Christ by declaring himself to be the head of the church of Christ ... when it is Jesus Christ himself that the bible declares to be the head of his church. (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18)
The "pope" also claims to have the authority regarding the soals of mankind, when it is God alone that has this sovereign authority. (Romans 9 7-23) I could go on but I'll stop here.
Great post Anonymous!
2:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Absolutely right, Ray B.
Revelation 18:10-13
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and SOULS of men.
Yes, a corrupt modern version of Babylon clothed in scarlet and purple ("bishops" and "cardinals") very wealthy, a city sitting on 7 hills.
A political institution: In cohorts with the world's leaders.
A financial institution:(with its own banks, currency and stamps) trade of wheat and flour and pearls etc).
A military institution (chariots, horses, and slaves: Jesuits (underground guerilla warfare - blackwater?)Knights of Malta.
A religious organisation: Souls of men, drunk with the blood of the saints (persecution of Bible believing Christians).
Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359
http://www.remnantofgod.org/whoreofbabylon.htm
http://www.remnantofgod.org/
whoreofbabylon.htm
http://www.remnantofgod.org/flash/whore/whoremenu.html
http://www.remnantofgod.org/
flash/whore/whoremenu.html
JESUIT: Vatican Tyranny
http://members.foothills.net/ricefile/JesVat.htm
http://members.foothills.net/
ricefile/JesVat.htm
Red Mass
A Red Mass is a Mass celebrated annually in the Catholic Church for judges, attorneys, law school professors, students, and government officials. The Mass requests guidance from the Holy Spirit for all who seek justice, and offers the opportunity to reflect on what Catholics believe is the God-given power and responsibility of all in the legal profession.
Originating in Europe during the High Middle Ages, the Red Mass is so-called from the red vestments traditionally worn in symbolism of the tongues of fire (the Holy Spirit) that descended on the Apostles at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4). Additionally, Judges of the High Court of England and all doctors of law wore red robes or academic hoods.[1]...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Mass
http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Red_Mass
http://www.spirituallysmart.com/blue_mass.html
http://www.spirituallysmart.com/
blue_mass.html
http://continuingcounterreformation.blogspot.com/2011/10/red-mass-2011-for-us-supreme-court.html
Ray B. said...
Anonymous @ 1:19 PM
You are 100% correct. It's interesting that so much of the RCC doctrine, practices, symbology, and dogma is rooted in paganism. The title "Pontiff" is a direct take from paganism that was used exclusively for the pagan high priest of Rome (Pontifex Maximus):
pontiff [ˈpɒntɪf] n
(Christianity / Roman Catholic Church) a former title of the pagan high priest at Rome, later used of popes and occasionally of other bishops, and now confined exclusively to the pope
[from French pontife, from Latin pontifex]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
There is quite a bit more; regarding the "pope's" blasphemous title of the "Holy Father." There is only ONE "HOLY FATHER" and that is God Himself. Furthermore, the "pope" usurps Christ by declaring himself to be the head of the church of Christ ... when it is Jesus Christ himself that the bible declares to be the head of his church. (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18)
The "pope" also claims to have the authority regarding the soals of mankind, when it is God alone that has this sovereign authority. (Romans 9 7-23) I could go on but I'll stop here.
Great post Anonymous!
2:42 PM
You too Ray B.
Jack T. Chick tells us the following about the Knights of Columbus in his 1983 book Smokescreens: “The legions of Rome are awesome. More than one million practicing Catholics make up the ranks of the Knights of Columbus. They are fraternally pledged to the ideal of bringing America under papal rule. They are powerful, wealthy, [and] loyal.”
Has the Vatican Changed since the Inquisition? plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!
Vatican's Holocaust in Croatia!
http://www.spirituallysmart.com/croatia2.html
http://www.spirituallysmart.com/
croatia2.html
Henry VIII supposedly had a deathbed conversion back to Catholicism according to H W Crocker III in his excellent book Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church.
Nazi Germany - A Creation of the Vatican and Jesuits
http://www.youtube.com/tlthe5th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9zBX4gt0eo&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=e9zBX4gt0
eo&feature=channel
_video_title
To Anonymous 12:10
My personal opinion is that the Babylon referred to there is hardly the Church of Rome, but rather and more likely the United States of America. Babylon in scripture usually referred to the prevailing CIVIL power - hardly to a 200 acre enclove in the middle of Rome, Italy.
Constance
To Anonymous 12:10
The "Source" was Alberto Rivera who is a documented liar. He was NEVER a Jesuit, but he made a very good living pretending he had been. Ray Livesey who wanted to believe Rivera investigated him thoroughly and came forth with the truth on that phony. I refused to share a speaker's platform with Rivera in 1987 when John Barela attempted to arrange same.
http://tinyurl.com/8ytwgrf
I know Roy Livesey personally. He stayed in our house for a week in 1983.
Constance
Correction, it was 1985, not 1983 when Roy Livesey was our guest for a week.
Constance
http://tinyurl.com/8ytwgrf
"Nazi Germany - A Creation of the Vatican and Jesuits"
O yeah? Why then was a denunciation of Nazism, Mit Brennende Sorge, read out from all German pulpits, attracting considerable persecution?
There was some coincidence of views between Hitler and the Vatican - certainly about communism, to some extent about Jews - but that is no reason to make wild and unverifiable claims.
A. PROT
I looked at the part alleging a "secrety treaty of Verona." There is no real evidence there -- only statements that somebody read into a Congressional record. Anything can be read into a Congressional record, but that hardly makes it competent evidence. Where is the REAL TREATY?
Constance
I looked at the part alleging a "secrety treaty of Verona." There is no real evidence there -- only statements that somebody read into a Congressional record. Anything can be read into a Congressional record, but that hardly makes it competent evidence. Where is the REAL TREATY?
Constance
If it's "guess who is Revelation's whore of Babylon" time then I have two front runners, the endtime religious system and the endtime financial system. Note that politicians are seduced by her.
I would appeal to all exegetes who talk of the endtime religious system as "Mystery Babylon", based on Rev 17:5, to consider that this phrase makes little sense. Clearly it would be punctuated today as "Mystery: Babylon the Great, mother of Prostitutes..."
OK, here's another teaser: Why does the Antichrist world dictator destroy his own capital city in the same chapter?
I suspect we are all being diverted here from the very pressing issue of the OBVIOUSLY NEW AGE REVOLUTION in full and global progress as OCCUPY WALLS STREET and OCCUPY THE WORLD.
Constance
More on ALBERTO RIVERA:
The religious hoax of the century?
The true story of Alberto Rivera uncovered
In a recent EN book review I expressed regret that the author had been taken in by the false claims of Alberto Rivera. An overseas reader asked for more details of what was perhaps the most successful religious literary hoax of the past century.
Alberto Rivera (1935-1997) was born and brought up in the Canary Islands where harassment of Protestants was much less than in mainland Spain.
His mother died when he was nine. As a teenager he left the Roman church and was baptised in the local evangelical church at 17. After working as a fare collector on the buses, in 1955 he independently obtained a place at a Protestant seminary in Costa Rica, but was expelled in 1957. For a time he worked for the Methodist Church in Costa Rica, and in 1964-5 for the Christian Re-formed Church in New Jersey, USA, who dismissed him.
Photographed as priest
In 1967 he returned to Spain where he was employed in a Christian school and again dismissed. He then secured work with children in a Catholic parish. It was in this era that he had his photograph taken in priest's clothes on an identity card, and also obtained a certificate from the Archbishop of Madrid 'confirming' his status as a Catholic priest, which he was not.
In a brief visit to London in 1967, he encountered the Church of God in Prophecy and went to work with them in Tennessee, but was dismissed in 1968. He reappeared dressed as a priest in Puerto Rico in 1968, but returned to Florida in 1969 as a Protestant. In 1969 he functioned briefly as a priest in the Liberal Catholic Church, but left Florida suddenly and went to Seattle in Washington State. Eventually he ended up in California.
It was here that he established himself as an anti-Roman evangelist, and was also ordained as a Baptist minister. He claimed to have been a Jesuit agent, undermining Protestant churches, and to have knowledge of various atrocities, including murder, by Catholics. This message was carried around the world in millions of tracts.
Exposed as a fraud
Rivera was exposed a fraud in Christianity Today (March 13 1981) and in the Journal of Pastoral Practice the same year. He was exposed again in Forward (the magazine of the Christian Research Institute, USA) in 1983. Other exposures followed in Australia and South Africa - but some Canadian Protestants still believed in him. Roy Livesey, the British publisher of New Age Bulletin (to whom I am indebted for information) wrote a book, as yet unpublished, documenting the fraud.
In some ways Rivera was a typical confidence trickster. Accusations of theft, especially of money, constantly followed him, making a frequent change of address desirable. His employers (and, later, his employees), had cause to lament dearly the day he came to them. He usually had a hard luck story. He would tell the Protestants he had been persecuted by the Catholics or by a previous Protestant employer, and he told the Romans that he was a victim of the Protestants.
http://www.e-n.org.uk/p-1303-The-religious-hoax-of-the-century.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/44dugy9
Constance
For the record, the LIBERAL CATHOLIC CHURCH was a Theosophical Society operation under Charles Leadbetter, the apostate Anglican clergyman who abandoned the faith of his fathers to go and serve Madame Blavatsky's "Masters."
Constance
I agree with Constance.... intentional or not, we are being diverted from a growing movement that I sense more and more will be looked back on as the start of the New Age grass roots movement that takes us to a place (as a nation and as a world) that we've never been to before. Many new and strange things are about to be experienced. Hold on to your hats!
There is an interesting website called Discover The Networks, and it is run by David Horowitz, a former lefty turned righty. At that website has been for a long time now a java-based app that shows linkages between the people, groups, and funding sources of the Left. It is quite informative.
At the end of my comments is a link to Drummond Pike's page, and if you have a computer with java installed, (or a java plugin for your browser), click on "Visual Maps" on that page, and it takes you to another page with dynamic links from Drummond Pike to every other person/group/funding source that he has been linked to. Each thing he is linked to can be clicked on, and that becomes the center of the screen, showing everything *that* is linked to.
It takes a while to load, but when it does, it's really cool! (That's the geek in me saying that.... haha)
I would love to build something like that for the New Age links....
If you don't have java, the article on Drummond is interesting in itself.
Anyway, here's the link to start you off:
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1738
Even more interesting is if you go to the site I linked to above and type "ows", for Occupy Wall Street. A whole bunch of links show up on the screen - around 75-80. The funding sources are listed as:
Tides Foundation / Tides Center
Samuel Rubin Foudnation
Proteus Fund
Compton Foundation
Colombe Foundation
I haven't researched any of these yet, but it gives you an idea of how extensive the database is at their website.
How many of you are aware of the newest movement called Chrislam ?? This heresay is a combination of Christianity and Islam that is racing faster than an Arizona wildfire through many churches. In this latest craze, the Bible is on one side of the church and the Koran is on the other. June 26, 2011, seems to have been its launch date.
Could all the anti-Catholic jabber (as of late) and the OWS noise, distract the many keen eyes and ears of this blog from exposing this false religion?
Catherine
Paul, point well taken that the persecution (tribulation?) of the church is well under way.
Thousands killed in Africa for being Christian, thousands in China, perhaps millions. Hundreds in Egypt, several in Israel, lots and lots in Turkey (Armenians). Just because few have been killed for the faith in the West does not mean there are not millions suffering. We are SO Western-minded that we rarely think of those dying and suffering in the East. Millions of martyrs in modern times. God's Learning Channel said 4.5
million Christians killed by Hitler.
I only brought up the pre-trib thing because one poster assumed pre-trib ideas started in the 19th century, and I don't like to ever let that be stated as a fact without challenging it. Even though like you I am not SURE there will be a pre-trib rapture. I know several Bible scholars who think, though, that we have been in the trib ever since Jesus' time. That is also a worthy concept. Skolefield, for instance, whom many like as a Bible explicator. enta
Back to the New Age.
Mariel
Dear Constance,
Regarding Alberto Rivera of Jack chick infamy;
Concerning Rivera’s claim that he had been a priest, Christianity Today noted:
The Catholic Church denies Rivera’s most important claim, that he was a priest. To substantiate the claim, the Alberto comic book carries a picture of an official-looking document from the Archbishopric of Madrid-Alcala in Spain, dated September 1967. It identifies Rivera as a priest and gives him permission to travel abroad in his ministry. There is no other church documentation, such as an ordination certificate, shown in the book. An individual in California, who grew suspicious of Rivera in 1973, wrote to the archdiocese office in Madrid-Alcala to ask if Rivera were really a priest. The response was that no diocese in Spain had any record of Rivera as a priest. The archbishop’s office concluded that he was not a priest, and that the travel document, which was little more than a form letter, was "acquired by deceit and subterfuge" to enable Rivera to get a passport.[29]
Christianity Today further discovered that "that not only was Rivera not a Jesuit priest, but also that he had two children during the time he claimed to be living a celibate life as a Jesuit." It explained:....read more.......
http://www.catholic.com/documents/
the-nightmare-world-of-jack-t-chick
www.thewarningsecondcoming.com
"The Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ's Number 1 Target". Read the entire message in the following posting entitled "Greatest attack on My Church since My Death on the Cross"......10-28-11, 11:30 pm
"Message to priests, bishops, and cardinals about False prophet".......6-7-11, 3:15 pm
Catherine
To: Pre-Tribs, Mid-Tribs, & Everyone else,
Some details to consider. This info was first-hand from an older friend of mine who was very, very close to John Paul II during his pontificate (no their friendship WASN'T SEXUAL at any time). Also, a priest has confirmed this information:
1.) When John Paul II died, it was considered the "End of the Age."
2.) The Tribulation began with Pope Benedict XVI . Note, I said Tribulation and not The Great Tribulation.
3.) We should be reading weekly from The Gospel of Matthew and the Book of John, not to forget the Book of Revelation.
We're not the only ones who believes this, too. Check out for yourself the following site:
www.thewarningsecondcoming.com
Hit the FAQ tab and see what is meant by the terms "The Warning" and "The Second Coming".
Next, read the following messages regarding the Tribulation or Great Tribulation:
"The Great Tribulation"...12-20-10, 10 am
"Media & Other Censorships to Come"....1-1-11, 2am
"2011 Year of Purification"......1-11-11, 11:45 pm
"Honour My Father"....5-18-11, 5 pm
"You are now in the middle of the Tribulation-Latter half end of 2012".....7-20-11, 11 pm
"The Great Tribulation is being mitigated through Prayer".....8-18-11, 8:45 pm
"My Messengers are now with you to prepare your souls"......11-3-11, 9 pm
______________________
For those who doubt the Sacraments, read:
"Importance of Sacraments-Marriage and First Holy Communion.".....7-6-11 (also at the above site).
One more thing, America IS BABYLON !! Notice the part about the waters...there's the Atlantic, Pacific, Gulf of Mexico, all the massive rivers, and the
numerous lakes, too boot.
Catherine
Look, only a prophet can answer whether Occupy Wall St (and the similar camp in London) is the start of something. They are fairly NA but include a good smattering of secular materialist Old Left. And whether they will still be camped out over the winter months is most unclear.
One day something will happen. Maybe this time, maybe not. We are told to keep watch, but not to be on a hair trigger all the time.
To Saw The Light,
What are Crocker's sources for the claim of Henry VIII's deathbed return to Catholicism, please?
Oops! Sarkozy left the switch on!
You gotta love how God exposes what men say in darkness. Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
A mic switch left on at the G20 summit reveals a comment Sarkozy made to Obama, calling Netanyahu a liar.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45203597/ns/world_news-europe/
Jack Chick is so inaccurate that I sometimes wonder if he is a Catholic agent provocateur.
From Catherine's (@ 2:17 AM) link: www.thewarningsecondcoming.com
"This is according to a European visionary, a married mother of four, who says she has received over 250 messages in a series of divine revelations from the Mother of God, Jesus Christ and God the Father respectively since the 9th November 2010."
This is a very good example of "channeling," a well known practice in the Occult/New Age movement. Within Roman Catholicism, there have been many recorded instances in which "channeling" (they refer to them as "apparitions") from the "Queen of Heaven" have been claimed by the RCC. This is just another example of the RCC and the path it actually shares with the New Age/Occult movement.
Incidentally, the entire site that "Catherine" provided is full of New Age beliefs and practices ... all under the guise of Roman Catholicism. What is consistent is the denial of the sufficiency of God’s Word for all matters regarding faith, doctrine, and practices. Satan hates the authority of the Word of God. Whenever and wherever its authority is undermined, you can be sure Satan is behind it!
re rivera, I notice he kept getting kicked out of all those churches, was that for theft or some other stuff as well?
re Catholic visionaries, sounds like that Catherine person will eventually be denounced by the diocesan bishop over her location, which is the office that has the authority to make the call and allegedly the charism to tell
supernatural (above nature, i.e., from God and not from any created
source like human fraud or the devil)
from non supernatural in such matters.
Among accepted visionaries, I don't buy anything that is from a locution or voice heard inside you, that can be easily put together by one's own overactive brain and guts.
visions aren't channeling but locutions sound dangerously near that.
in any case, RC does not require that anyone believe in any vision.
yeah I just glanced at it, I don't think that God is that longwinded, generally in The Bible He isn't. might be a core of an impression she had from Him that was then expanded by her, but when I see this much verbiage and that many revelations, I figure something is wrong somewhere.
I saw some news that the Catholic Church is making some changes to its liturgy in mass. I don't understand some of the wording such as "consubstantial" It says the changes are effective November 27 this month. Could someone fill me in on what some of the changes mean? Thank you.
To John Rupp, Jr. @ 4:16 PM:
The English translation of the Catholic Church's worship service is being modified in order to more accurately reflect the Latin from which the Roman Missal is translated. The liturgical changes are within the responses and the language of the Mass and are fairly minor.
The word 'consubstantial' means the same in substance or essence.
I had a chance today to inspect "Occupy Detroit" one of the subsidiary "Occupy Wall Street" local spinoffs. I will be talking about it tonight on my radio program. I took pictures and will be posting some in a to be posted program.
Constance
Thank you anonymous 4:16 pm for your information. It makes good sense to me too. Consubstantial is a good word for Jesus and the Father as one. I am very strong in my belief of the trinity.
Lucis Trust behind Occupy Wall Street?
Apologies if already posted.
http://lalternativaitalia.blogspot.com/2011/10/lucis-trust-behind-occupy-wall-street.html
Thank you to Constance for finally taking the Occupy movement serious! Whether it fizzles or continues to build, it shows overtly that the New Age Movement is more than just some conspiracy theory. It's there and all around.
What are the ways to listen to Constance's online shows that we missed?
It's probably good to remind people here from time to time when they are, where they are archived, and how to listen to the archived shows.
For example, Constance has two shows scheduled per week, but only one scheduled rebroadcast, so which one is it that is rebroadcast?
Thanks!
[I'll give $1000 to anyone who isn't "moved" after reading all the Google articles listed in the following web goodie! Maria]
PRETRIB RAPTURE SECRETS
How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He's now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. ("The Rapture Question," by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn't dare to even list, in its scripture index, the too-hot-to-handle Acts 3:21!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends (Acts 2:34,35 echo this), the rapture therefore can't take place before the end of the trib! (The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby - the so-called "father of dispensationalism" - to list in the scripture index in his "Letters"!)
Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The "rest" for "all them that believe" is tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who'd be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel's posttrib resurrection!)
Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this "rapture" was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!).
Here are some Google articles on the 181-year-old pretrib rapture view: "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes," “Famous Rapture Watchers,” "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," “X-Raying Margaret,” "Edward Irving is Unnerving," “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” "Walvoord Melts Ice," “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" – all by the author of the extremely accurate and highly endorsed book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).
What namely you are writing is a horrible mistake.
Dear Constance, Here in the UK we have a great movement called the British Constitution Group, and a newspaper The UK Column. I call it Britain's only hope! Some people in this organisation are advocating a film and set-up called "Thrive." I am suspicious of it, having watched your filmed talk online on the New Age agenda. I notice, scrolling around the "Thrive" webpages that, under "The Twelve Sectors" if you click on 'Sprituality' they are promoting Barbara Marx Hubbard. I am highly suspicious of "Thrive." Have you heard of 'Thrive'? What do you make of it?
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