UPDATE 6-30-2009: LEE PENN, AUTHOR OF FALSE DAWN IS MY GUEST TONIGHT. HE IS MAKING HIS BOOK AVAILABLE FOR FREE READING ON THE INTERNET -- WE WILL TELL YOU HOW TO GET IT ON THE AIR TONIGHT!The decline and fall of Tony Blair as an EU power appears to be rapidly advancing. The wolves are encircling him even at home in Great Britain. An article from yesterday in the Examiner.com “Insider source for everything local” is entitled “Do we need Tony Blair in the Middle East.” The conclusion, of course is, “no, we don’t.”
Last week one John Ankerburg is recognizing as a prophecy expert practically pronounced Tony Blair the first powerful president of Europe. Within 24 hours, Javier Solana announced his support of Felipe Gonzalez for that prospective post. I have had pleasant associations with John Ankerberg in the past, but I suspect he needs to do more digging to understand the subtleties of the EU issues.
Herb Peters might have interpreted this as one of three kings coming down by the roots. I’m not sure how I interpret it. Time and events will tell. I personally am continuing to watch Javier Solana and his moves/endorsements with deep fascination. Solana suggested the new EU Foreign Policy would not be implemented as a "Big Bang" once the Barcelona Treaty became law, assuming the Irish finally ratify it.
Stay tuned!
Constance
123 comments:
Things are happening at lightning speed. Two things came to mind tonight. "never let a crisis go to waste" (I think that is the right quote). How will the potential economic collapse of USA play into everything?
The other thing is Javier Solana's birthday is next month. I wonder what (if years past are any indication) "diplomatic gift" he will get himself for his birthday.
Maybe if I am not too tired from my out of town trip tomorrow I will get to hear the radio program.
Tony Blair's brilliant statement:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1095913.html
http://tiny.cc/YalFv
Blair wants to perpetuate a myth that if Israel bows down and meets all the demands of the Palestinians that that will bring peace.. He doesn't understand that they want Israel off the map period. His idea defies everything that is recorded in the Bible.
Common sense also shows that this has not worked in the past. Definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
The idea that you are dealing with reasonable people who want to live peacefully side by side is absurd. Only when we understand that it is a spiritual battle for the Biblical lands that God promised to Abraham and his "only son" Isaac and his descendants, will we understand the nature of this battle.
Blair, and all the rest of the politicians are spinning their wheels. Peace in the Middle East, without the Prince of Peace is impossible. ( or worse...they're opposing God)
Peace is only possible, when we know sin has been paid for in full.. Then true reconciliation, forgiveness and obedience to what God's Word says can follow.. When we know that Yeshua paid for sin, we can actually forgive others...He has paid for all sin, not only ours..
Their is no cure for the bitterness of the Middle East without a bloody Messiah, who redeemed us from sin, and His Word which spells out in detail who the Land has been given to..
Peace will come only through the supernatural work of God, putting His truth on the hearts and minds of men. When He does this, there is no dispute..and strangers who understand this can live in peace with Israel, and even attach themselves to Israel. God blessed all the families of the earth through the descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and yet the nations will turn against Israel...because the deceiver has convinced the nations that Israel is the enemy, instead of the source of the blessing.
The truth of this story is there are many Arabs, who believe in Yeshua and acknowledge that God gave the Land to Israel, and we never hear this in the media. Why?
The problem isn't just about land. It's about the evil in the heart of man who covets. It's the age old story of Cain and Abel, one of jealousy, one of murder, and stealing, and not really loving God, and taking Him at His Word. Politicians cannot change people's hearts, only God can.
Then we have to love our enemy and pray for those who persecute us...The failure to understand the root of the problem and try to deal with it through vain human wisdom will end in the the destruction of many according to Scripture.
When we know where the Tree of Life is, we can eat of it...and never die. We can drink of the Living Water and not go thirsty..and eat bread that we don't have to pay for with money. That's God's wisdom, not mine..
Solona, Gonzalez, Blair, the Quartet, etc..have put themselves as gods, instead listening to God's voice. Very bad idea..
All of these guys will be fading soon, if they don't turn to the Living God and ask for forgiveness.
Joyce
Iraq might be coming back to haunt Tony too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/23/public-iraq-inquiry-blair-brown
http://tiny.cc/iZ0Ig
Normally, someone who has such a controversial war connected to him would not have a been a logical choice for Middle East peace envoy, and certainly not to run the EU.. but Tony served a purpose in the overall scheme of things. He's just not the man for this job.
Joyce
Speaking of British, Charter for Compassion has a Council of Conscience:
http://charterforcompassion.com/
They also support the Three Faiths Forum, which Pave the Way Foundation promotes:
http://charterforcompassion.com/about/partners
http://tiny.cc/A2ZlM
Pave the Way says that Three Faiths Forum mirrors their objectives:
http://www.pavethewayfoundation.org/LINKS/LINKS.htm
http://tiny.cc/WHtAA
Watch the film from Three Faiths Foundation:
http://www.pavethewayfoundation.org/AudioVideo/Three_fatihs_forumi.mpg
http://tiny.cc/zCb2R
Pave the Way was founded by Gary Krupp, from the organization Humanitad, which I posted the other day..
http://www.humanitad.org/
I'm not pointing this out to pick on anyone, but to point out the error in this idea of interfaith dialogue. The other reason I point this out is to connect Gary Krupp and Humanitad with Karen Armstrong. There is also this idea that if just "get rid of the extremists" we'll all be one happy family. Again, this is vain human wisdom seeking to solve a spiritual problem and an unwillingness to acknowledge that there is such a thing as absolute truth..
This is the same work Tony Blair has been doing..
Pave the Way, may have good motives,I don't know, but the road to hell was paved with good intentions.
Joyce
There is a line in the Three Faiths Forum film, that says they want to speak with "one voice".. Now, if we examine the verse in the Tower of Babel story carefully from the original language we find that they wanted to do this too:
Gen. 11:1 Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.
There is more to this verse than just the actual language they spoke... I find there are many speaking this same language today.. It's a new, but a very old language called babel.
Joyce
and here it is "many tongues, one voice, Europe"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23866005@N07/2635724523/
http://tiny.cc/R5560
Obama also said that he and Angela Merkel were speaking with "one voice".. hmmm.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-06/27/content_11608936.htm
http://tiny.cc/TrH7E
Here he is speaking with "one voice" of USA :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmUUYo9o9eg
http://tiny.cc/dnIOJ
There is even a tee shirt from Obama that says "One Voice".. but I ask you, do we really speak with one voice?
and then there is the One Voice organization for Peace..
http://www.onevoicemovement.org/
Joyce
I'm putting up a picture I took of my dog and cat together. I call it "Peace on Earth" and I'm hoping it will give inspiration to all to get along civilly at this corner of the internet.
Refresh your browser to see it -- I took it with my own little camera.
Constance
That's a sweet witness Contance. Thanks for sharing it. I've got a couple of goldfish inside (and alot more outside) It's far less commitment and risk...but even far less returns for the labor of love spent in the time and care that is given. You've labored well here and I commend you for the years you have spent fighting this uphill battle to expose the lies while holding up the truth.
Perhaps you can take some of your own advise and collapse the comments page..... or do you already do that??? (shagrin)
Hope you are also able to find some time to relax in the sun on that couch with your friends...only I doubt there's room up at the top!!!
g'day
JC
BERLIN -- Germany's highest court rejected complaints that the European Union's reform treaty violates the country's constitution, but said the national Parliament's powers need to be strengthened before it can be ratified.
The Irish government has said it will hold a repeat referendum in the fall.
José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, the EU's executive branch, said he was confident all 27 member states would ratify the treaty by the fall.
Constance,
If only the Israelis and Palestinians could do like your dog and cat...unfortunately..they can't so everyone's scurrying around trying to figure out how to get all the religions to behave better..
From the 3 Faiths Forum site we have this:
http://www.josephinterfaithfoundation.org/mysticism
http://tiny.cc/LiJ16
and of course Tony Blair's Faith Foundation is listed, speaking of Tony.
The there is this organization:
http://www.stethelburgas.org/prayers.html
We see Jenny Cox of the Golden Sufi Center...
More from St Ethelburgas:
http://www.stethelburgas.org/meditation&servicesautumn2008.html
http://tiny.cc/trAyL
Quite a mixture, Eucharist, Centering prayer, Contemplative Fire Eucharist, early morning meditation, Buddhism.. This has the makings of an ecumenic mystical religion that one might call "babel"..
Joyce
Initiation by internet:
http://maestromonth.com/
Joyce
Sorry, I have a one track mind..here are a few highlights from Jerusalem Academy's website. I'll post the link too:
June 11th to 12th 2008: Interfaith Meeting in Delhi with Jonathan Granoff, International Security Institute (USA), Imam Ahmed Ilyasi, All India Association of Imams and Mosques (India) and Dr. Ahmed Ifthikar Khwaja, Interfaith Harmony Foundation (India)
Granoff is also part of the World Leadership, Advocates and Contributors for Humanitad:
http://www.humanitad.org/team/
Granoff has an interesting resume:
President of the Global Security Institute
Vice President of the UN NGO Committee on Nuclear Disarmament
Snr. Advisor: the American Bar Association Committee on Arms Control & National Security
Serving: Lawyers Committee on Nuclear Policy, The Jane Goodall Institute
The Bipartisan Security Group and the Middle Powers Initiative
Special Session Chair: Summit of the Nobel Peace Laureates (Rome)
rep: International Peace Bureau (Nobel Peace Laureate organisation)
http://www.jerusalem-academy.org/pageID_5849140.html
it's the same page where it talks about Benedikt's involvement at the recent Crans Montana Forum and his trip to Ethiopia..and Granoff.
Please read carefully what he says about the Chapel where the alleged Ark of the Covenant is stored..
"The chapel is surrounded by a little yard and an iron fence and is not allowed to be entered by
anyone, but the life-long guardian, who is staying in the building day and night. The team
found the whole site covered and permeated by a most sublime spiritual presence and light,
radiating from the center of the small chapel. There was no doubt that the Ark was really
posted there. Yet, it was not possible to discover what it contained. Also it seemed that the
content of the Ark was not only charged with pure divine light, but obviously also covered by
some occult energies. It seems that – in case it should come once more into use – it would
need to be newly recharged. "
Now, even though "the Ark" was not unveiled as promised last week...is it possible that we are be prepared for the unveiling when Solomon's Temple or the Monument to Humanity is built... Just a thought.
Now for those of you who didn't see my post about the Monument to Humanity on Humanitad's website.. it is a high-tech pyramid structure that uses Islamic geometry.. This is another organization that I have highlighted before which is focused on the Temple and Jerusalem which speaks of "sacred geometry" .. Folks from Hebrew University are involved with this project and it receives funding from Ford Foundation, who is involved in many interfaith projects..
http://www.thehope.org/ABOUTAOJ.htm
http://tiny.cc/jbMG8
It really looks like there is a theme here:
http://www.humanitad.org/programs/m2m/images/
http://tiny.cc/XYn8X
Now this is from Academy of Jerusalem's website...do you see a connection?
http://www.thehope.org/go_allah.htm
http://tiny.cc/a0827
There's a lot to look at on the site:
http://www.thehope.org/welcome.html
http://tiny.cc/Ggypa
Joyce
I smiled when I looked at your photo of your wonderful pets this morning. How delightful and peaceful a scene. Thankyou for the little uplift for me.
To Len:
Constance Cumbey said...
TO LEN:
Continued from last thread
GRETTA Duisenberg. I wonder if GRETTA GOELET is a possible alias for GRETTA DUISENBERG??!!
At least they are clearly think-alikes.
Constance
Monday, June 29, 2009
Justices Reject Sotomayor Position 9-0
"--- even Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's 39-page dissent for the four more liberal justices quietly but unmistakably rejected the Sotomayor-endorsed position that disparate racial results alone justified New Haven's decision to dump the promotional exam without even inquiring into whether it was fair and job-related.
"Justice Ginsburg also suggested clearly -- as did the Obama Justice Department, in a friend-of-the-court brief -- that the Sotomayor panel erred in upholding summary judgment for the city.
Complete article at:
http://tinyurl.com/nux7ce
6/30/2009
Ms Cumby wrote: " I wonder if GRETTA GOELET is a possible alias for GRETTA DUISENBERG??!! At least they are clearly think-alikes.
And they are both Dutch!
But why would she change her name?
Spanish Court Drops War Crimes Investigation of Israel...
Is the reason this???:
In May, the Israel terror victim's association, Almagor, announced that it was preparing to petition for a war crimes trial of NATO leaders and nations, including Spain, over the bombing of Serbia in the 1990s. The suit would force the court to look into wartime actions by several former and current Spanish leaders, as well as those of other NATO member states. Chief among the potential targets of the Almagor suit is European Union (EU) foreign policy chief Javier Solana, who was NATO's Secretary-General during the Serbia bombing campaign.
As with a similar initiative by Knesset Member Aryeh Eldad (National Union) earlier this year, the Almagor investigation was meant as a counterweight to the Spanish court's probe of the Shehadeh case.
http://tinyurl.com/n44krx
farmer
Yes Farmer - I think that absolutely is the reason.
It seems 2 can play that same game -
DouginMI
FALSE DAWN author LEE PENN is my guest tonight on MY PERSPECTIVE. Please join us live and in the chatroom at
8 p.m. Eastern Standard time
7 p.m. Central time
6 p.m. Mountain time
5 p.m. Pacific Time
4 p.m. Alaskan time
It should be good!
Constance
Maybe it's not a name change, but an also known as . . . maybe not, they are just two like minded evil thinking persons!
Referring to Gretta Goelet and Gretta Duisenberg, that is . . .
Just wait until the lion lays down with the lamb - - my dog and cat for the present are about the next best thing!
Constance
If you haven’t seen Z. Brzezinski on 06/29/2009 Charlie Rose show you missed him comparing the neo-cons with the Ayatollahs, Obama as just right in his Iranian diplomacy (“flexible and imaginative”) America is an evil “colonizer.” Only the French revolution can compare with the world’s political awakening and Israel’s future can only be found in ultimately losing Israel’s existence as a Jewish State, in that all the lands of pre-67 war must be negotiable.
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10425
Bjorn that was valuable information you shared regarding the Israeli case against Solana. Until you posted it, I didn't know about it. I added the link from Israel National News about Almagor. I've already shared it with others.
Thanks.
Dorothy
Thanks for picture of your dear little friends, Constance. What peace.
Len, why do people change their names, other than for secrecy? Well, they do it to gain a new persona. Looking for what "fits". Also looking for other parts of themselves which have not been expressed.
Can you explain why Jewish people have a social name and a religious name? Even when the religious name is not a social problem?
New Age people often change a name when joining a group. I became Ambha in Swami Satchidananda's group, and Aziza in Sufi group. I had to choose a new name when being baptized in the Catholic church. I was happy to get my husband's last name which I thought was romantic...how nice to get a romantic new name along with a romantic new husband. I liked Ambha, its sound and its meaning, but I disliked Aziza, both sound and meaning--however I did not choose either name, they were chosen for me.
I tried to change my name Mariel several times because few people spelled it right or pronounced it right when I was a child and young person. But now it is fun to be a unique Mariel so I don't need to use my last name most of the time, even if it is romantic.
Mariel
And notice, please, Len, how questioning we were about the name of Javier Solana's mother. Even if there were no question about secrecy, she would have changed her name if she were a Sufi. She would have used her Sufi name sometimes, and her "real" name other times. It was written here that she was given a Sufi name at birth, Nieves, I think it was; that does not ring a Sufi bell with me, it must be something that is a wheel within a wheel in the mind of the "Master" who gave it. But other people seem to have called her by other names, and even who exactly she was is in question. That is considered spiritual by some, to have no "name identity". So you can be who you really are, not a "name".
But my husband called me Mariel and so it has become a dear name to me.
after reading Constance's comment about John A. here's something she might consider:
“Be content to be nothing, for that is what you are. When your own emptiness is painfully forced upon your consciousness, chide yourself that you ever dreamed of being full, except in the Lord.”
Well this takes the cake.. The shamans flew from Alaska to Jerusalem to the Jaffe Gate for the Live H2O concert on Summer Solstice:
http://www.loversofjerusalem.org/g_w-eagle.html
http://tinyurl.com/ltxeew
http://www.whirlingrainbow.com/
On the "what's new page" you can watch a video of this..
The Mystery School has made it to Jerusalem:
http://tiny.cc/ltTUr
God help us!
Joyce
p.s. somehow I don't think this is the 144,000 spoken of in Revelations..
Joyce
I guess this really is the "externalization of the hierarchy"
http://whirlingrainbow.com/workshops.htm
http://tiny.cc/UeeiD
Joyce
http://tinyurl.com/l89rxd
Obama administration could send additional National Guard to south border
June 30, 1:55 PMPresident Barack Obama could send up to 1,500 National Guard volunteers to the U.S.-Mexico border in an effort to reinforce an existing counter-drug strategy. Critics have already bashed the plan as they say the levels of violence along the border do not require of unarmed-unpaid volunteers, but of U.S. agencies involved in National Security. (more at link)
I hear the unarmed and unpaid volunteers will be given these instructions. If they see someone crossing the border, they are to wave their arms rapidly over their heads in the air shouting, "Yoo Hoo I see you. Go on back. Don't Hide. We don't call • Ally Ally Oxen Free! You have to go back." If the people continue on, the migrants are allowed to move on into the United States, the volunteers having done their duty.
Dorothy
Mariel,
Often cults will make followers change their names. It is so the person is given a new identity and will break the identity they have with their family. When attending a Cult Awareness Network meeting many years ago, I learned that cult techniques can be used to move a woman into prostitution. The woman will be forced to change her name for the same reason. It sounds strange, but I went to the meeting in another state with parents of a young girl who was pulled in that direction. Her parents were trying to get her back.
The difference with Catholicism and Judaism is that the name change is not a full time one. The person retains their old identity and family name. Jews get a name from the Bible. Catholics get a name to add on to the string of names at Confirmation time. This helps them bond with their religion.
udaism 101: Jewish Names
Names in that form are still used in synagogue and in Jewish legal documents such as the ketubah (marriage contract), but are rare outside of the religious ...
www.jewfaq.org/jnames.htm - Cached - Similar
Dorothy
Mariel,
Sometimes God Himself gives someone a new name.. In the case of Avram, He enlarged his name, by putting the hey in Avram's name...He put Himself in Avram, making him Avraham and Sarai, Sarah. Avraham would be the father of many nations, because God would enlarge his name. It's always good when God does it and not ourselves, as in the case of Genesis 11 when they built babel and tried to make a "name for themselves"..
In the case of Yacov, which means supplanter. God changed his name to Israel, which meant that he wrestled with God and man and prevailed.
In the Bible, names are very interesting. They always mean something..but a change in name signifies a change in status. Hosea became Yehoshua. Again, God's name became part of Hosea's name indicating that He was the one who would be doing the "saving" . Hosea means salvation, but Yehoshua ( or Joshua) is YHVH saves.
God has given us all a name, and it's not always what our mother's and father's named us, although it could be. God also told people what to name their children. A person's name is much more than what you call them..
When the Bible talks about taking God's name in vain, it's much more than just pronouncing it.. In this command, God's name is not simply the pronunciation of YHVH, but it is His very character and nature.. and we can render this empty by our actions and words in many more ways than just pronouncing.
In Judaism it has been interpreted that you shouldn't pronounce the YHVH except on Yom Kippur in the holy of holies, but we can make God's name empty without every pronouncing it. The actual pronunciation is no longer really known, since there were no vowels in the original hebrew. When you see LORD written in caps in your Bible it has been substituted for YHVH. It's in our Bibles well over 6600 times, so God certainly wanted to make His Name known.
If we know our name, that is who God called us to be we can live it out.. so what's in a name? A lot!
Knowing our name is an important part of living out who we are called to be... so if we don't know it's hard to live it. It might be much more than what is written on your birth certificate.
I know this doesn't have anything to do with the New Age, but it's an interesting subject.
Damanhur, the New Age community in Turin, I noticed gives everyone bizarre new names, so I suppose this is the counterfeit of our God-given names.
We can know our God given name if our identity is rooted in Yeshua..outside of Yeshua, we risk to have a name someone else besides God has given us.
Is. 62:2 The anations will see your righteousness,
And all kings your glory;
And you will be called by a new name
Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.
Rev. 2:17 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assembly. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’
Joyce
ALERT: With Sweden today taking over Eu half year presidency: working in secrecy for Solana!:
"An Irish “no” in October would plunge the E.U. back into crisis.
But if the treaty goes through, the Swedes will have only a matter of weeks to oversee the creation of a new E.U. diplomatic service...
Advance discussions are difficult because suggestions that an Irish yes vote is being taken for granted could jeopardize the referendum. “That makes it very difficult to plan,” said one official speaking on condition of anonymity. “It has to be done in secret.”
http://tinyurl.com/latev5
I hope this article on newswithviews does not get lost in the mix -
http://tinyurl.com/lhqkxq
IsitILord,
Thanks for the link to the
Brezezinski interview.
I find that guy really irritating
when he keeps talking about
the U.S. , saying "we" this and
"we need to" that, as if he's
primarily an American and
primarily concerned about
the United States, when his
status as big shot in the
CFR and The Bilderbergers,
etc., would suggest otherwise.
His agenda is not concerned
with The United States, but
rather with establishing his
beloved New World Order,
along with his buddies Henry
Kissinger and George Shultz,
etc., who are actively working
to bring down this country.
He blames all our current
problems on George Bush,
and then says that Obama
is a good solution for the
country and that he's doing
all the right things, basically
because he's surrendering
to Zi Big New regime.
He's like Lawrence Welk's
evil twin.
Nieves' Sufi name was HAYAT. She tells about this in one of her Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh / Osho related interviews. The name "Nieves" is, I believe, Spanish for "snowflake."
Constance
I believe the guest I was referring to was a "Jimmy DeYoung" or something like that. He was a guest on the John Ankerberg Show. I did several programs with John in the 1980s about the New Age Movement.
I find the comment rather cryptic.
Constance
"The Grandmother Drum International Peace Project" "Jerusalem Hug 2009" is about as close as one can get to placing the ultimate desecration there. Not since Antiochus BC 168 has there been anything close to match it, at least at the level of my present historical understanding, that is. Len, Dorothy and Joyce might know a great deal more.
Thanks, Joyce, for bringing this one to our attention.
Constance
Speaking of "Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow" the "Grandmother's Drum" is from www.whirlingrainbow.org.
Constance
From the Whirling Rainbow home page:
"
The Vision
Among the Navaho and Hopi, the Whirling Rainbow is a prophecy and a promise of peace for all Nations and all people through the understanding that all races are one. The Whirling Rainbow vision is to unite the people of the five sacred colors; all creeds working together for the good of the whole. When all pathways to wholeness are respected by all cultures, the prophecy of the Whirling Rainbow will be realized.
The Mission
The Whirling Rainbow Foundation is an international spiritual and educational 501c3 organization which honors and celebrates the diverse cultural and spiritual paths of the human family. The foundation cultivates the universal teachings of inner peace, loving compassion, wisdom and understanding at the core of every culture and spiritual tradition.
Our mission is to awaken the spiritual intelligence (divinity) of the heart of humanity, manifesting the full potential of the human spirit to co-create a world of unity, love and peace with the self, family, community and the earth. Through its own projects and working together with like organizations, the Whirling Rainbow Foundation celebrates all paths to wholeness through the universal languages of music, dance, cultural, visual and healing arts."
Constance
The Whirling Rainbow's "Earth Pledge" comes about as close to "worship of the image of the beast" as I can currently conceive. (I have long suspected that "the image" of "the beast" is the image of "the whole earth" itself -- Barbara Marx Hubbard and so many others have referred to it as "The Image")
Here's their earth pledge as I just copied it from their site. When looking at this, review Rev. 14 -- the clearest of demarcations or dividing lines -- the line we dare not cross -- "Fear God and give glory to HIM for the hour of His Judgment is come . . ."
"I pledge Mother Earth as
my one country
I pledge Humanity as my one people
I pledge Life as my religion
I pledge Love as my prayer
I pledge Peace and Freedom
as my birthright
And the birthright of all humanity
My heart beats one with
all my Relations"
Constance
Whirling Rainbow seems to be a money making operation with no political ties. Their board isn't very impressive:
http://www.whirlingrainbow.com/board.htm
Whirling Rainbow seems to come from Navaho and Hopi legends.
For what they are charging for their adventures, they have to be pretty creative. Unless they are some kind of mail drop operations, they are just one of hundreds, if not thousands of New Age money making operations for people who want their brains tickled.
Dorothy
Looking at Whirling Rainbow started me thinking about the fact that Transitions, the largest New Age bookstore in the Chicago area closed down. It was in a trendy area in a mall strip with Whole Foods. I decided to look at how large the New Age business is these days, and it appears it is still quite large.
http://www.newagereseller.com/
The growth of the New Age movement doesn't depend on the businesses but upon its ideas appearing mainstream in the academic and political areas.
Dorothy
Be sure to check out 7:33 am's link
yes Dorothy, most New Age units of operation are money makers, often starting off with a modest fee and moving on to big fees. Take, for instance, the bio-psychologist I mentioned earlier, whose book I was urged to read by my counselor--Bruce Lipton, PH.D. I find by reading Amazon.com reviews of his book that there these complaints: the book gives theory but no implementation practices. To get the practices, one needs to read a book by a colleague, which is what the reviewers called an "infomercial" for Psych-K, a
$350 training course.
I did spend a lot of money on such things when I was employed 20 years ago, before going on disability(obviously health was not obtained through the courses, and I lost my part of the family income
generator). I would love to have that money back now when I need it.
I will not spend even the initial $25 to buy the book.
My counselor turned out (also on the web) to be a facilitator at a New Age group, giving "impartation" of techniques learned during trips to India. Will I continue with her?
Well, she's covered by Medicare, she says (hope that's true), and she has some decent insights, and there isn't anyone else available who is covered by Medicare and has a PhD. in Psychology, not in this town. But she will NOT understand, I fear, why I won't cough up the $25 for a book "I really need."
Been there, done that, told her that, but she does not yet understand. She thinks I ought to go see "Angels and Demons". I told her that was the story of my ancestors (which does NOT go back to Christ) and she "maybe it DOES go back". Well, just to fill you in on the New Age which is alive and well in what you called the academic mainstream.
I feel sad that I am reduced to this level, but really I was always at that level, just know now that there is a better level we can all aspire to.
Mariel
Mariel,
I understand (though not to your extent) feeling like a fragment of ones former self. After my injury I have come across several tasks which I am no longer able to perform. It can certainly take its toll, especially when it effects how one can provide for their family. I am happy to see you being cautious when it comes to the things your counselor is promoting, especially when they violate our relationship with our Most High Councelor.
Here is a ten minute message to bring refreshment and encourgement to those here that need a reminder of what we're figting for. I know I do.
enjoy-
http://tiny.cc/9KKDZ
Constance,
I wonder if any of the Disney inspired
feel-good New Agers know that
Pocohontas became a Christian
after some personal searching
and she never looked back, but
gave all praise and honor to her
savior Jesus Christ until her dieing
day.
I wonder if all these North American
Indian revivalists have really
considered the fact that the
many and various tribes of Indians
were in an ongoing state of
bloody war with rival tribes,
for centuries before the big
bad Europeans came over and
"ruined everything".
JD,
"Most High Councilor"...
I like that.
Joyce,
Pave the Way, may have good motives,I don't know, but the road to hell was paved with good intentions.
Really?
Then tell me. What's the difference between the "goodwill gestures" done by Gary Krupp and so-called "goodwill gestures" offered by "Messianic Jews" (Christians pretending to be Jews) to vulnerable Russian Jewish immigrants in Israel who, because of religious repression in Russia, may not be educated enough about the Jewish faith to be able to know when they are being tricked into "converting" to a religion they think is Judaism when it is clearly NOT.
In so far as your organization is collectively based on falsehood and deception, it doesn't even have the fig leaf of "good intentions" to hide behind.
ADL TO SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION: STOP EFFORTS TO CONVERT JEWS
New York, NY, September 21, 2005…The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today condemned as "insulting, disgraceful and dangerous" plans by leaders of Southern Baptist Convention – the nation's largest Protestant group - to consider forming a partnership with a Messianic Jewish group in order to missionize Jews in the United States and around the world. The League called on the Southern Baptist Convention to stop their efforts to convert Jews.
On September 20, the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention approved a proposal to study whether the SBC's North American and international mission boards should formally recognize the Southern Baptists Messianic Fellowship – a Messianic Jewish group – as "an evangelistic mission to Jewish people in the United States and throughout the world."
The executive committee's vote to recommend that the proposal be put on the agenda at next year's SBC annual convention follows the launching last year by the SBC of the Pasche Institute of Jewish Studies at Criswell College in Dallas, whose purpose is to teach Baptists leaders how to minister to Jews.
Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:
The idea of the Southern Baptist Convention using a so-called Jewish messianic group – which misrepresents two faiths – to target Jews for conversion is disgraceful, insulting and dangerous.
We are outraged over the continuing efforts by the Southern Baptist Convention to target Jews for conversion, especially by considering 'deputizing' a Jewish Messianic group, part of a deceptive movement that falsely claims they are interested in Jewish practices when the real goal is to convert Jews to Christianity. These efforts should be stopped once and for all.
Together with the establishment last year of an institute aimed at teaching Baptist leaders how to minister to Jews, the Southern Baptist leadership continues to show its disrespect and disregard for the validity of Judaism and the Jewish people.
The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/4798_31.htm
Paul said: “Pocohontas became a Christian
after some personal searching
and she never looked back, but
gave all praise and honor to her
savior Jesus Christ until her dieing
day.”
Pocohontas would say what the Apostle Peter said and what we all know is true: “Then Simon Peter answered him (Jesus) Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of life.”
Your post is great and reminded me of Oldmanoftheski, so, though someone may have posted this from Last trumpet, I think the symbols will interest him if not all.
http://lasttrumpetnewsletter.org/2009/07_09.html
“While in Saudi Arabia, Obama was presented with an over-sized medallion on a gold chain, known as the King Abdul Aziz Order of Merit. This is the highest award that can be given in Saudi Arabia, and it is given only to the closest friends of the king. (25) The medallion consists of a six-pointed star inside of a seven-pointed star, making thirteen points inside of a sunburst, with a palm tree rising out of it. Obama was also honored highly in Egypt, where medallions were struck and circulated. One circulating there had the image of an Egyptian Pharaoh and the following words: “Obama – New Tutankhamon of the World.” (26) Thus, Obama was declared the new King Tut and Pharaoh of the world. When has such a thing ever happened to a head of state? Our President is now a Pharaoh, the son of the sun-god Ra. Obama went to Egypt for spiritual reasons and came away with a spiritual title. It was all a part of the heart-hardening process. In Exodus 10:27 we read as follows: “But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go.” Pharaoh is the one who would not grant freedom to the people of the Lord but enslaved them in the world’s first society of socialism long ago. Those same demons of ancient times are still here with new human hosts in high places!”
The following is the "Messianic" version of the "interfaith dialogue" that certain "Messianics" so hypocritically condemn in everyone else. Only with them, it is not "interfaith dialogue" but predatory proselytizing.
SOUTHERN BAPTISTS RELY ON DECEPTION IN EFFORT TO CONVERT JEWS
by JewsOnFirst.org, June 25, 2007
Six million Jews and only 15 Southern Baptist Messianic Churches! A Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) official's recent juxtaposition of the US Jewish population (and, by inevitable association, the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust) with the SBC's main vehicle for converting Jews raised this question: is the SBC's objective to empty Judaism of American Jews and make them all Messianic Southern Baptists?
At its 1996 annual meeting, the Southern Baptist Convention resolved to focus on converting Jews -- specifically to "direct our energies and resources toward the proclamation of the Gospel to the Jews." This year's meeting afforded a look at how the SBC goes about evangelizing the Jews through the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship.
The "messianic" -- Jesus worshipping -- congregations endeavor to appear "Jewish" in order to provide a reassuring display of Jewish symbols to potential converts. Rabbis contacted for this report deemed the Jewish facade deceptive.
Additionally, both the rabbis and Christian clergy contacted by JewsOnFirst were critical of an effort during the meeting to inculcate the messianic Baptists with end-times beliefs known as Christian Zionism.
Messianics meet under SBC wing
During its annual meeting in San Antoinio, a meeting that dovetailed with the SBC's annual meeting, the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship (SBMF) heard a representative of the SBC say that the fellowship needed to expand to reach all the Jews in the United States. The SBC's Baptist Press reported:
... Aslam Masih of the North American Mission Board [of the SBC] addressed the group about how they can better reach Jewish people with the Gospel. Masih is a national church planting missionary for Middle Eastern and southern Asian people groups.
Masih pointed out that the United States has the largest number of people groups in the world and that success in winning the lost at home translates into reaching the world for Christ -– because those people will take the message to friends and family in their native lands.
The Jewish population in the United States numbers than 6 million, Masih said, and there are only 15 Messianic Southern Baptist churches.
Does that mean the Southern Baptist Convention wants to empty Judaism of all 6 million Jews and put them all into the messianic Southern Baptist faith? JewsOnFirst asked both the SBC and Masih.
John Revell, director of the SBC's Office of Convention Relations, told JewsOnFirst that the SBC "has not targeted any particular group" for evangelizing. Revell added: "the goal is not to get someone to abandon their faith, but to recognize who Jesus is."
Aslam Masih, who made the statement about six million Jews, professed not to immediately know what he had meant by it. Reached at his home on June 22nd, Masih took several minutes to open the web page of the Baptist Press report about his speech and locate his statement, saying that he needed to see "the context" of his statement.
As he seemed to be perusing the statement, JewsOnFirst asked: "Did you mean that all six million Jews should be removed from Judaism and converted to the messianic Southern Baptist faith?" Masih replied, "No, no, I did not say 'converted.' What I'm trying to say here, I'm trying to understand who was there. I still need to look at it in what context I said it. Let me check it out and see what context it was in."
After several more requests to comment on the statement were met with the same reply, JewsOnFirst asked Masih if his remarks had been written or off-the-cuff. He said he had not written his remarks.......read entire article....
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/07c/baptist_messianic.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/lbwjrx
JD, that is a powerful video on Tangle. Thank you. I found it awe-inspiring, but also it made me realize how tiny are our struggles compared to Him.
JD, bless your striving as a disabled person, especially in your efforts for your family.
The video made me realize that anything I've given up for Christ was worth it!
Mariel
THREE FAITHS FORUM
Let's all take a look at the Three Faiths Forum which mirrors that dastardly (by Joyce's standards) Pave the Way Foundation and the Three Faiths Forum founder Sir Sigmund Sternberg who, like Gary Krupp, happens to be Jewish.
My, my, my, my, my! Another Jewish person being trashed by Joyce! Hmmmmmmm!
Maybe the following will tell us why.
Sir Sigmund Sternberg's successes in promoting dialogue between different faiths include:
1. Relocating a Roman Catholic convent at Auschwitz. Sternberg negotiated with Poland’s Jozef Cardinal Glemp, who subsequently agreed to the move, which was eventually completed in 1993.
2. Organizing the first papal visit to a synagogue (Rome) in 1986
3. Negotiating the Vatican's recognition of the State of Israel (1993)
4. Opening Vatican war-time files relating to Nazis and Jews.
Sternberg is also a member of the Board of Deputies of British Jews which retains the privilege of personal approach to the Sovereign on state occasions, takes an active interest in the lives of fellow Jews abroad, and seeks to protect, to promote and to represent UK Jewry.
Sir Sternberg was also involved in an effort to seek restitution of assets for Nazi victims:
I thank Malcolm Rifkind, the then Foreign Secretary, for producing the first report on this issue. I thank him for agreeing to tie up—not to distribute—the residue of gold in the hands of the Tripartite Gold Commission. I thank Foreign Secretary Robin Cook for setting up the Nazi Asset Conference. He promised he would do it if Labour was elected and, as soon as it was elected, he carried out his promise. It was a remarkable gathering of 43 nations and authorities who were seeking to produce the truth and justice and some measure of restitution to victims of Nazism, even 50 years after the disaster had occurred.....
.....Other countries have moved in a way that a year ago no one would have believed possible. Countries have established commissions to ferret out how their nations profited from the assets of Nazi victims. That has happened not just in Switzerland and the USA but in Portugal, Spain, Argentina, France, Uruguay. Brazil, Sweden, Belgium, Croatia and the Czech Republic, and we are even starting to get some movement in the Vatican, following the visit paid by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, Sir Sigmund Sternberg, Janice Lopatkin and myself last weekend. Your Lordships will be pleased to know that senior Vatican officials told us that when we have researched the 12 volumes of documents produced some 30 years ago, we should come back to them with the questions which we need answering. That research has immediately begun. So in that centre of morality, we hope that light will shine soon through the curtains of darkness which have so far shrouded their archives......... read entire article.....
http://tinyurl.com/nynuan
Oh dear. I almost forgot to mention that Sir Sigmund Sternberg also has something else in common with Gary Krupp.
In 1985, Sir Sigmund Sternberg was named a Knight Commander of the Pontifical and Equestrian Order of St. Gregory the Great at the request of Pope John Paul II.
Susanna,
I think you are missing my point.. The point isn't whether these folks do "go works" or not. The point isn't whether they are Jews, or whether they've been knighted by the Pope..
The point is that they are part of the spreading the UN agenda which wants the world to unite regardless of their differences.
The point isn't what the Southern Baptists do. I have my own issues with Southern Baptists, but that's not the point either.
I guess I should ask you question so we can clarify where you stand, and it might make the discussion a little more fruitful.
Do you think a Muslim or a Jew or someone else who doesn't believe in Yeshua's/Jesus' atoning work for their sins will be redeemed?
If you think there are many roads to God like these organizations do, then you will not have a problem with their activities and you will be in agreement with the UN Alliance of Civilizations agenda.
If you believe as I do, that Yeshua is the truth, the light and the way and no one comes to the Father but by Him as Scripture states, then you will have to reject all other agendas which seek to promote a peace apart from Him.
We should never deceive people into anything, but as believers in Yeshua/Jesus we are commanded to make disciples of the nations, so telling Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus about Yeshua's atoning work and teaching them to obey all that He commanded ( Torah) is actually our responsibility as believers in this Good News of the Kingdom.. It's not optional.. .
Now if there are groups using deceptive tactics, I would not approve of that, but at the same time a Jew who believes in His Messiah does not have to become a Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Methodist, etc. Yeshua was a Jew ( born of the tribe of Judah) and His followers were too..Paul was from Benjamin which is part of Judah too.
Paul says "I am a Jew" present tense, not past tense, so you can see that there is Biblical precedent for Jews who call themselves Jews and believe in Yeshua:
Acts 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.
Personally, I understand I understand why Jews today who practice Judaism find what I am saying offensive.. It's because of years and years of history of forced conversions, of the Shoah, etc. It's because in Judaism ( I make a distinction between Judaism and Torah) they don't realize that that Yeshua is the Messiah yet. in large numbers..
There are only 15 million known Jews in the world, probably a lot more Israelites ( all 12 tribes) but in the kingdom many will know Yeshua...How God will accomplish this is mystery, but He is doing it in our day and will continue.
Put aside Catholicism for a moment, and think...you as a believer that your sins have been paid for by Yeshua must realize that the only way to the Father's presence is because you've been "born-again".. We must be born again to see the kingdom.. Yeshua said this to Nicodemus...that as a teacher of the Torah, he had to be born again.
cont'd
cont'd
Look at Yeshua's concern for the descendants of Abraham:
Luke 13:16 “And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?”
Don't you believe what Scripture says, that Yeshua came to set us free from the works of darkness, from Satan's kingdom to bring us into His kingdom? Look what Paul was send to do:
Acts 26:15-18 “And I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. ‘But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of cSatan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an enheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
Do you think we will be called to any less in these last days:
Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Believers in Yeshua, whether they are from the nations or they are Jews have the responsibility to testify to truth.. Now I don't expect Jews who don't know Yeshua to know any better so I am not shocked about either of these two men's involvement in these organizations.. The problem is they are trying to find shalom in something other than Yeshua and it will never work, and inadvertently they will help to establish the beast system.
I'm not saying they are doing it deliberately. It's by spiritual blindness. If you Susanna, don't think Yeshua is the only way to the Father, then why bother following Him? You are criticizing people who want to share about Yeshua.. Would you prefer to leave them dead in their sins and trespasses or do you not believe what the Bible says..
Eph. 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Whether or not I am a Jew, I still need Yeshua.. That's the point. if you miss that point, you miss everything..
Joyce
Thank you Joyce. Many, many silent observers are in agreement with what you have been trying to point out and praying for you. Countless Bible Believers, Jews and Gentiles alike. who are also watching events unfold, share your views and are sounding the same alarms and are alerting as many as they can.
To Susanna, and any Jewish, Muslim or any other readers who would care to comment, I would very much appreciate hearing your clear position of either support and appreciation for, or adversion and rejection of the Alliance of Civilizations and all those supporting it financially and otherwise. Does the "good" an organization does and it claims as it's foundational goals
make it acceptable alternative in your eyes to serve as a catalyst to help bring peace to the world?
This is a serious question and I am very interested in your personal
stand on the issue.
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." 1 Corinthians 3:12-14
"Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night."
Psalm 1
-Rudi
I had trouble sleeping. Usually when that happens, I suspect there are things online that I need to look at. I awoke to read two compelling new colums, both of which I urge all to read I am going to try to repost Daniel Taylor's OLD THINKER NEWS new column on the grid by grid matrix "data mining" system now obviously being implemented as part of GEOSS, Global Earth Observation System of Systems. You can link to it by clickingon OLD THINKER NEWS link at the right of my blogspot.
California has declared a "fiscal emergency."
There were MANY earthquakes in world yesterday. Meanwhile, about all the press in USA appeared to be covering was Michael Jackson.
The best wakeup call I read is LAST TRUMPET MINISTRIES. I am too tired to get the link now, but go to their site and read it carefully and prayerfully.
Constance
7/2/2009
Mariel asked: "Can you explain why Jewish people have a social name and a religious name? Even when the religious name is not a social problem? "
Dear Mariel,
Sure! But it is unrelated to the other issue.
More and more, religious or Israli Jews have just one name; like Rahm Emanuel
or Bush press secretary Ari Fleisher (who was not even religious and is intermarried).
Two names were used for assimilative reasons; a Hebrew one for tradition (or being named after an ancestor)to be used in religious rituals that require a name, and an English one for school and business.
My Hebrew name is Aryeh Leib. You are welcome to calle me Aryeh or Ari.
Rudi is asking the distilled question: can doing good really be bad? If the UN seeks the destruction of United States sovereignty and at the same times appears to be for ending war is its goal good? I will use another example;
If I am for “civil rights for “gays” and the statistics place their subsequent (often adopted) children in a much higher category of the likely sexually abused, is that good or bad? This is just a rhetorical question. When the media, when the carnally controlled information sources filter information for their perceived “good ends” the Lemmings will “die.”
I have often commented on one pillar of the New Age, evolution. I have pointed out how “Expelled no intelligence allowed” was dismissed by the media, and how the University of Vermont proved Ben Stein’s point by expelling him from speaking.
"You have no notion of the intrigue that goes on in this blessed world of science," wrote Thomas Huxley. "Science is, I fear, no purer than any other region of human activity; though it should be."
This quote is used by Pat Buchanan, who I don’t always agree with, but sums up the problem of the carnal use of so called knowledge. If good deeds means faith in non-Christian truth, then the end is so very near, and as God has always intended, we as individuals must decide “AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE WE WILL SERVE THE LORD.”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=32510
7/2/2009
Joyce asked: "Do you think a Muslim or a Jew or someone else who doesn't believe in Yeshua's/Jesus' atoning work for their sins will be redeemed?"
There you go again! Just asking the question shows you to be a fundamentalist nut case.
Unlike people like you Judaism holds with Psalm 145:18 that the Father is near to ALL who call him.
God does not require a person be Jewish to be redeemed so why should He require a priorotized idolatrous belief in an avatar over Himself.
You remind me of the clergyman who tried to get Adolph Eichmann to accept Jesus before his hanging so he would be redeemed. A reporter asked the clergyman if the six million martyred Jews had any chance for redemption and he repllied in the negative.
Len,
We don't know what happen to those 6 million Jews before they died... I have confidence in God's ability to reveal Himself to anyone He so choses, and in the last moments of life for someone to ask for Yeshua's redemption..look at the thief on the cross.
I have seen people on their death bed, convicted of their sin realize that they needed redemption..
But I will respond to your comment with Scripture since my words are not what count:
Heb. 9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “aTHIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.”
And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may aalmost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but athe heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ adid not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of bthe true one, but into cheaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since athe foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
I don't pretend to know the all the answers as to why God allowed my family and millions of others to suffer and died in the Shoah, but I do have 100% confidence in the justice of God. If Yeshua paid for our sins and we reject such a great salvation....
Heb. 2:2-4 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
You know Len, it's not by accident God called our people stiff-necked..
God is holy, and the covenant which our people disobeyed was renewed with shedding of blood...that would be Yeshua's precious blood..Anyone can come into this newer, improved covenant.. it's not limited to Jews, or as one of my favorite rabbis said:
Rom. 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of call, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Joyce
Len,
Fundementalist nut case ?
You sound just like the AOC.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
Let us post this whole scripture here. in truth
Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
priorotized idolatrous belief in an avatar over Himself
I stand with Joyce and anyone else who agrees with her as a fundamentalist nutcase. The truth is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and yes I do believe in HIM.
Wow Susanna, the ADL, does not want the gospel preached to the Jewish people???
Well you need to go back and talk to the Apostle Peter then whom you and the Roman Catholics claim as your first Pope huh???
Now today I know I have fallen into the twilight zone or the outer limits.
Bring it on Alliance of Civilizations and False Prophet and False Messiah, us fundamentalist nuts will be ready with our profession of faith in the crucifixation and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the truth.
Oh I apologize the record of what Peter preached that day in Jerusalem is in the book of Acts chapter 2. It is a real good read.
Rudi,
I think you stated the point well..
Yeshua was a little "fundamentalist Himself". Not too much wiggle room here:
Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
The problem with my people is that we have a short memory. When we rejected Yeshua ( the manna) in the Wilderness.. God was not pleased. When we rejected the Living Water, from the Rock, God was not pleased. When we rejected Moses as our leader and wanted to go back to Egypt and eat leeks and garlic, and thought Egypt was the Promised Land, instead of the Promised Land.. God was not pleased.
My people broke our covenant with God by setting up a calf, by worshipping asheroths and baals. God scattered us. We refused to obey His Sabbaths, we worshipped a golden calf again, we killed the prophets and refused their correction and finally some of us ( not all ) refused Yeshua.
Then when we got exiled a few of times, we decided to focus on Judaism..instead of walking according to His precepts and listening to His voice. So now we have Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Orthodox Judaism, etc.. We can't even agree on what we're supposed to do.. Some say build, some say, no let Messiah build..do you see my point?
Yeshua said, "My sheep, hear My voice"..The question are we willing to be His sheep..
By nature, I am stiff-necked too, but I am so thankful that Yeshua got a hold of me and put His Torah on my mind and that He redeemed me because I know myself.. I am just like the rest of the stiff-necked Israelites who were constantly complaining and disobeying in the Wilderness.. Today, we are in the Wilderness of New York, Boston, Chicago, California ,Europe, South Africa, South America, all over the globe. In the galut, as we like to say...
Some of us live in the Land of Israel, but act like we are still in slavery to Pharaoh. It's 2000 years and we're still waiting for the redeemer when He's already come and is coming back...
We are still waiting for Mashiach to rebuild the Temple, but Maschiach is waiting for my people to say "Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai" ( Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord).
One of these days soon, we'll get it and:
Ezek. 37:28 “And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”
Rev. 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear das crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street.
He wants to give us that Living Water, but just like in the midbar ( Wilderness) we reject His provision and want to go back to Egypt. In Egypt, like Babel, we can use tar and mortar... when He wants to give life..
Is. 55:1-3“Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. “Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and beat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance. “Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;
And I will make can everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.
This everlasting covenant as I told Ari ( Len) is sealed with the blood of Yeshua.
Joyce
RE "FUNDAMENTALIST NUTS"
This was written by arguably the "Original Fundamentalist Nut":
"1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which ye have also received, and wherein ye continue,
2 And whereby ye are saved, if ye keep in memory, after what manner I preached it unto you, except ye have believed in vain.
3 For first of all, I delivered unto you that which I received, how that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,
4 And that he was buried, and that he arose the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve.
6 After that, he was seen of more than five hundred brethren at once; whereof many remain unto this present, and some also are asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James, then of all the Apostles."
(1 Cor. 15:1-7)
I happen to believe that, and in all sobermindedness of conclusion, based on the verifiable space/time/historical evidence that supports these "basic" "fundamental" facts.
Conclude what you will, however conclude you must.
I guess this puts me in the catagory of "fundamentalist nut" as well. Ok, I've been called much worse. I can live with that. Most, more, importantly, I can die with that.
I'd leave you with two vital statistics: 1) 1 of 1 people posess volitionary character; 2) 1 of 1 people die.
True facts pertain to those two statistics.
HK
Constance,
I thought long and hard over your question.. Defiling Jerusalem, whether that is the worst thing since Antiochus Epiphanes or if the Muslim call to prayer which happens 5 times a day and their prayers toward Mecca, the kabba with their rear ends facing Jerusalem is just as bad. They celebrate Ishmael being offered up on Mt Moriah instead of Isaac. We know through Isaac's line, we get to Yeshua so that seems to be utter rebellion against God's Word and His plan. .
On the one hand this Whirling Rainbow, live H2O event seems more outrageous.. Sad to say, but people are used to hearing the Muslim call to prayer, but every time I have been at the kotel and hear that it makes me ill. Temple Mount is already defiled by Al Aqsa and numerous other minarets.. Here's what Temple Institute has to say about the mosque,:
http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/20-12-07.htm
http://tiny.cc/ZY9G3
...but thankfully, God has not left us without a physical testimony of His presence on planet earth and that is the body of Messiah Yeshua, the living stones all over the world that are being built into a holy Temple.
Eph. 2:19-22 So then you are no longer strangers and liens, but you are bfellow itizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the ecorner stone,in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into ba holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being abuilt together into a bdwelling of God in the Spirit.
Having said that, Jerusalem is the place where God chose to put His Name and one day, He will personally cleanse Temple Mount and reign from Jerusalem, but in the meantime I think the "defilement" of that area will only get worse and worse.. This last week the gays marched in Jerusalem again. It's just a matter of time before they will want access to the Mount to conduct their lewd demonstrations.
http://tiny.cc/TPMQq
When Yeshua comes back to reign, all the nations will go up to Jerusalem and will no longer defile themselves or Temple Mount with idols.
Zech. 14:16-17 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will ago up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
Joyce
To Ari (Len), Joyce, and everyone:
The puzzle is brought up: who is saved? Is it by Yeshua only?
Some of us who consider Yeshua our savior think that others who do not consider Yeshua their savior may be saved. This is a standard position of the Catholic faith as I learned it when I was young, and I believe it still is. It is based, I think (although poorly educated in this) on the concept that many are unable to access Yeshua in the outward world, but do access Him in the unspoken inner world. Some follow Him well, even though not acknowledging Him formally.
I think of my Jewish father-in-law often, even though I never met him.
He was the "best" man in his town. It was he who fed the town in the Depression, when some Christians would feed only themselves; this is what I was told by his descendants.
Some hard core evangelicals would say he was not saved, no matter how
good he was, for all our works are "filthy rags". Our works as filthy
rags, I believe, are only such in comparison to Yeshua's works. On an earthly scale, Ed's works were not filthy nor rags. They were the equivalent of the Good Samaritan's works, which the Lord praised.
Ed also allowed all seven of his children to be brought up Christian, even though he said his Hebrew prayers alone every night, as my husband reported to me.
Does this sound like New Age syncretism? It may, but it was not the same as what syncretism means today: approval of the worship of idols, of self, of Man as divine, of Man as god. That is the difference. Ed did not worship idols, or self. He worshiped the true God as best he could with his understanding. All of our understanding is as filthy rags compared to God's understanding. Perhaps we need a new definition of what is "filthy rags."
Well, good ol' Rick Warren says he provides that new definition, with works paramount. I give up. My mind is unequal to this task.
The "world" I grew up in was such a much better place; we had interfaith dialogue without condemnation of others to hell, and yet with reverence of God as the true Understander. People, even with strong commitments, were willing to give precedence to God's understanding, which was thought to be greater than ours. People were careful to judge. But we had not yet had the myriad of idols brought in for sampling, which came a few years later. We were parochial, provincial, and we trusted God to make it right. We were closer then, no matter what our chronological ages were, to the little children whom Yeshua said we should be like.
Mariel
Joyce,
No, Joyce, I AM getting your point.
And contrary to your Scriptural cherry-picking (non-Biblical) spin, it most certainly IS about whether or not someone does "good works" since the Bible tells us that we will be judged "according to our deeds."
As the Bible also tells us "faith without works is dead" because "works" is "faith in action."
Moreover, not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter Christ's kingdom.
As for your question
"Do you think a Muslim or a Jew or someone else who doesn't believe in Yeshua's/Jesus' atoning work for their sins will be redeemed?"
As a Catholic Christian, I believe that ALL salvation is in Jesus Christ whether anyone else believes it or not.
However, if through no fault of their own, (i.e. their having been BORN into their respective religious beliefs)a Jew or a Muslim - or any other person of good will for that matter - doesn't believe in Jesus Christ, but sincerely lives to the highest good that he DOES know, he can nevertheless be saved - although his salvation would be in Jesus Christ.
Such persons of good will are sincerely and implicitly obeying the "Great Commandment" in so far as they are obeying the Law of God that is written in their hearts and will therefore be counted as "believers."
Do you think everyone who lived before Christ was "sent to hell in a handbasket" just because they didn't believ in Christ?
The Bible tells us that sins committed against Christ will be forgiven. It is the sins against the Holy Spirit (i.e. freely and obstinately persevering in what one knows in his heart to be evil until the very end) that are unforgiven - neither in this world nor in the next.
As I recall from the Bible, Christ's words from the Cross were "Father forgive them......for they KNOW NOT what they do."
Concerning your comment:
The point is that they are part of the spreading the UN agenda which wants the world to unite regardless of their differences.
THAT is PRECISELY what YOU and your Messianic confreres are doing vis a vis your hybrid religion which consists of Christians disguising themselves as Jews in order to trick Jews into "converting"....as part of a dominionist socio-political agenda involving Israel... tricked out in religious eschatological terms like "thousand year reich....er, I mean, reign of Christ" which depends on the "conversion of the Jews" who apparently weren't "converting" fast enough before the year 2,000 when the Southern Baptist Convention decided to get things moving.
Quite frankly, it looks to me like the Anti-Defamation League regards your agenda along with your assumptions about Gary Krupp and Sir Sigmund Sternberg as anti-Semitic.
It also looks to me like the thing that REALLY sticks in your craw is the fact that all YOUR hate-mongering - including all your obsessive little schemes to peddle the "Hitler's Pope" myth are being blown to smithereens by two prominent and AUTHENTIC Jews who refuse to serve as "useful idiots" for ANYONE who might stand to benefit by driving a wedge between the Catholics and the Jews.....like the Southern Baptist Convention, for instance, and its "Messianic" mouthpieces.
I don't necessarily trust the "UN agenda" any more than you or anyone else, but there are many of us who are getting a little sick and tired - as well as a little bored - with bigots who use "spreading the UN/New Age/or "Whatever" agenda mantra when accusing people - especially Catholics and Jews - of doing the very same thing they are doing themselves!
And one more thing....while you are busy "accusing the brethren" you might want to do a little investigating in your own back yard regarding the funding of certain Messianic organizations by Paul N. Temple's Three Swallows Foundation.
Namely:
1. Congregation B'rith Hadoshah
http://www.brithhadoshah.org
2. Messianic Jewish Israel Fund"
3. http://www.mjaa.org/ (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America)
Compared to Paul N. Temple and the organizations HE is tied to, Humanitad seems like "small potatoes!"
To Rudi,
Re:To Susanna, and any Jewish, Muslim or any other readers who would care to comment, I would very much appreciate hearing your clear position of either support and appreciation for, or adversion and rejection of the Alliance of Civilizations and all those supporting it financially and otherwise. Does the "good" an organization does and it claims as it's foundational goals make it acceptable alternative in your eyes to serve as a catalyst to help bring peace to the world?...
See my comments to Joyce.
As a whole, I do not agree with the agenda of the Alliance of Civilizations, but neither am I ready to willy-nilly accuse every person who is conected with it of being "evil."
This is because I don't believe that "fighting the New Age Movement" should be used as a "fig leaf" to disguise bigotry!
Susanna,
In regards to your 10:10 a.m. post to Joyce.
You quote:
"THAT is PRECISELY what YOU and your Messianic confreres are doing vis a vis your hybrid religion which consists of Christians disguising themselves as Jews in order to trick Jews into "converting"....as part of a dominionist socio-political agenda involving Israel... tricked out in religious eschatological terms like "thousand year reich....er, I mean, reign of Christ" which depends on the "conversion of the Jews" who apparently weren't "converting" fast enough before the year 2,000 when the Southern Baptist Convention decided to get things moving."
and you quote"
"
It also looks to me like the thing that REALLY sticks in your craw is the fact that all YOUR hate-mongering - including all your obsessive little schemes to peddle the "Hitler's Pope" myth are being blown to smithereens by two prominent and AUTHENTIC Jews who refuse to serve as "useful idiots" for ANYONE who might stand to benefit by driving a wedge between the Catholics and the Jews.....like the Southern Baptist Convention, for instance, and its "Messianic" mouthpieces."
Which is , presumably in response to Joyce's 1:50 a.m. post, here, (I posted her two previous sentences,and the next sentence to what you quoted, including what you posted quoting her, for full context):
"Susanna,
I think you are missing my point.. The point isn't whether these folks do "go works" or not. The point isn't whether they are Jews, or whether they've been knighted by the Pope..
The point is that they are part of the spreading the UN agenda which wants the world to unite regardless of their differences.
The point isn't what the Southern Baptists do. I have my own issues with Southern Baptists, but that's not the point either."
Honestly, Susana, I read both what you and Joyce post, and I don't think your 10:10 post, admitedly passionate, is on a par with many if not most of your posts that contain facts, and useful links.
Furthermore, I read most if not all Joyce's posts, she is opiniated for sure, as are you, however, I don't see anything in Joyce's posts that can be legitimately characterized as harshly as you did, in addition to the ad hominum statements,in that 10:10 post of yours.
Might I suggest that since you both take a high effort to research facts of topics of your focus, and usually state them and document them well, perhaps, a dispassionate, review of the material each of you put forth would be worthy of each of you, considering your respective differences, could be reviewed for what they present, and you could both address your responses to each other with an attitude of respectful disagreement.
It might help each of you, and all others that view what you both post.
Kindest regards,
HK
Mariel,
I don't think I'm God to decide who believes what about Yeshua, so I leave that to Him. I just know that the Bible says, no one came come to the Father but by Him. Because Scripture says so, I believe that to be literal and true.. having said that we can never know what's going on in someone's heart and mind even in the last moments of life, and we shouldn't underestimate God's power to touch people no matter what their situation. I've seen miracles.
Not sure if that addresses your statement, but...
Joyce
you could both address your responses to each other with an attitude of respectful disagreement.
HK-91,
You have a track record here (albeit it a sparse one) so your post comes as no surprise to me. Your disingenuous suggestion that Joyce show "respectful disagreement" when she has, at every opportunity, proven through her actions that she has no intention of ever doing so (despite her claims to the contrary), is the height of intellectual dishonesty and hubris.
You write well, but you do not "think well."
While others distort, Susanna keeps setting the record straight about Catholicism and Judaism.
Thank God for Susanna, who both writes well and thinks well.
Elephant's Memory
HK and Joyce:
Susanna deals in facts. Joyce, you call speculation and opinion facts.
Religions are made up all of the time. Even old ones are are manipulated by people with opinions. Everyone says their own religion is the TRUTH. That doesn't make it so.
You, Joyce, belong to a made up religion which you say is the TRUTH. There are more arguments against your cockamamie beliefs than there can be reasons for it. Whenever someone points out something that is a contradiction between what you are pushing and what other who call themselves Messianics are doing, you blithely say, Well I don't believe that" or "I don't agree with that" or some other rationalization for the bull. That is when you just aren't ignoring what the other person said. Excuse me, but when have you documented that you are running the Messianic networks and that these people are dissenters from your TRUTH.
How can I say you aren't Jewish? It is against the central beliefs of Judaism to lie. The followers of your religion condone lying by saying they are Jews when they are Christians, yet you aren't proud enough of your beliefs to openly call yourself Christian.
There is no difference between what you are doing and what the pushers of New Age religions are doing. They attract by deception and so do you.
You can believe whatever cockamamie thing you want to and call it your right to practice that thing. You and the Whirling Rainbow people have the right to push your cockamamie beliefs.
But when your belief system or any other belief system starts to distort to listeners what other groups believe, that's called lying. Those pushing New Age lie by exclusion of information. They lie by covering up what they are actually doing and by acting pious and oh so helpful. They ignore what their opposition says and just press forward. They say dialogue but they don't actually dialogue.
New Age people operating through the many groups associated with the UN work to break apart people so they can bring them together under their own umbella. They turn liberal Christians and Jews against the more Orthodox believers in their own community by lying and distorting.
For centuries in countries where many religions have lived together peacefully, individuals work together on civilian issues. They didn't need an AOC or any other umbrella group to do so. They have helped each other during times of trouble. They have given each other recognition not to covert each other, but as a way for leadership to signal to their own communities that someone from another group has contributed to a group that is not their own. They point out that certain values are held in common. I do think this is a better situation than if they continually harassed each other to convert to the other's religion.
A problem that Jews have had with Christians such as you have become and those who support you present a danger for the Jewish community. Martin Luther was a clear example of this that comes to mind. First he started out by trying to logically, by his standards, convince Jews of the correctness of his beliefs. When that didn't work, he turned into a vicious antisemite. History is full of Christians who have gotten very angry at Jews for not converting. You are really starting to sound like one of them Joyce.
By the way Joyce. It's pretty clear that the Sabbatean movement has continued and is hooked up with New Age beliefs. Sabbateans joined other religions. Sabbateans believed lying and distortion were alright. Sabbateans believe Judaism should be left behind for a better belief system. I posted some links earlier.
Forgot to sign the last commentary.
Dorothy
susanna just comes across as angry and insulting please respond without resorting to name calling and mud slinging honestly there is no need for the insults not only to Joyce but to many of us who are Fundamentalist in our beliefs.
there is no need for the insults not only to Joyce but to many of us who are Fundamentalist in our beliefs.
Insults to the Catholic faith and Jewish faith have been allowed to flourish here for the longest time, by all these "nice people" like yourself.
I guess by your standards, "insults" against Fundamentalists (as you call them, and I happen to disagree with your intepretation) are a big no-no here, but insults against Catholicism and Judaism are perfectly OK. Oh wait, slandering Catholicism and Judaism is just what some people call "contending for Truth in Christ." Give me a break.
Perhaps you should clean out your own house before casting aspersions on others.
You, anonymous, come off as angry and insulting, not to mention extremely insecure.
Elephant's Memory
"You write well, but you do not "think well."
Elephant's Memory
3:17 p.m.
Elephant's Memory,
In considering your hopefully well intentioned analysis, I was complelled to read up on your chosen namesake. I found someting interesting worth noting:
"There is a strong tendency in our times to want to localize intelligence—and other capacities—in the brain. It's a very unorganismic way of viewing that leads us to seek for a "command center" in the brain. Intelligence resides just as little (or just as much) in the brain as it resides in the elephant's trunk. It would be just as correct (or incorrect) to say that the elephant has its center of intelligence in the trunk as it would be to say that it's in the brain. If the elephant's trunk becomes lame, some of its intelligent behavior will be missing, just as when part of its brain is dysfunctional. In either case it could compensate for such injuries to a certain degree by engaging other body and brain parts. Intelligence resides everywhere and nowhere. Perhaps it's best to say we discover it in the intelligent activity itself, which is carried out and made possible by the whole animal. And in the elephant this whole is most vividly embodied in the use of the trunk."
Which begged me to wonder if perhaps you might have bumped your nose in the intermittent time you read my post and created your post.
To paraphrase an historical quote from astronaut Neil Armstrong, your post to me was..."One small step (for a) man, one giant leap (backwards) for mankind"
Your opinion of me "...not "thinking well"..." is duely noted, and seeing that evidently not much of me "surprises" you the fact that I disagree with what you posted will, I am sure, not "surprise" you either.
Have a nice day...
HK
HK,
ARE YOU SERIOUS???
With all due respect, HK, if I really wanted to engage in "ad hominem attacks," believe me, there would be no doubt in anyone's mind about what I was doing.
As it is, I have researched my facts very carefully, and the fact is that Joyce is NOT being truthful when she claims that she is "Jewish."
Joyce's "Christianity" is disguised as "Judaism" PRECISELY for the purpose of tricking Jews into "converting."
If you have a problem with that, your argument is not with me. It is with the authentic Jewish community and the B'Nai Brith Anti-Defamation league. Kindly take it up with them.
As for defending my Catholic faith against smarmy little "back door"attack strategies, I will be as harsh as I feel I have to be.
Apparently you haven't read all of Joyce's comments on all the prevcious threads.
Nor are you apparently aware of how this whole debate got started. Ergo a little fact-checking on your part would be in order.
Kindest Regards
Susanna
Mariel,
The video you refrence wasn't posted by me. I appreciate your sentiment for my family, however I don't like the term disabled, (lol) I prefer the term limited physical capability, since I do still have use of all parts of my body, I just have some things I cannot do anymore. ie weight restriction, and an arm and shoulder which have some atrophy.
I am sorry to see that somethings haven't changed around here. All sides of this arguement know of my respect for them, however it pains me to see this continue, month in, month out.
Anonymous 4:05 P.M.
See my comment to HK.
The only one "slinging mud" here on this blog is Joyce.
You don't seem to be too worried about whether or not Joyce has "insulted" people.
If I came across as angry it is because I AM angry....that people like Joyce would use "fighting the New Age Movement" as a front for bigotry and predatory proselytizing.
As for Fundamentalists, I don't have any quarrel with Fundamentalists at all - except when they are trashing other religions - especially the Catholic religion....which happens to be MY religion.
Susanna,
Perhaps of short review of two recents facts concerning you might be worthwhile:
First you write:
"The only one "slinging mud" here on this blog is Joyce."
Then three sentences later you write:
"As for Fundamentalists, I don't have any quarrel with Fundamentalists at all - except when they are trashing other religions - especially the Catholic religion....which happens to be MY religion."
This sentence above paints with a rather broad brush stroke, a rather unflattering picture of posts on this blog by most posts I have read from a fundamentalist biblical position.
But of course you are "angry" and you persumably have checked all those facts, keeping in mind of course the principle of fact checking is something you do since you reminded me of in an earlier post:
"Ergo a little fact-checking on your part would be in order."
You do do fact checking I'm sure, however selective fact checking would probably better reflect what you engage in at your whim, or depending on your mood.
Respectfully,
HK
Mariel,
Regarding your comment:
Some of us who consider Yeshua our savior think that others who do not consider Yeshua their savior may be saved. This is a standard position of the Catholic faith as I learned it when I was young, and I believe it still is. It is based, I think (although poorly educated in this) on the concept that many are unable to access Yeshua in the outward world, but do access Him in the unspoken inner world. Some follow Him well, even though not acknowledging Him formally.
You are correct!
IMHO
Joyce has been tirelessly uplifting
Jesus Christ. Her rational is from the
Bible. Her reasoning is from the Bible
and centered on Jesus; ( I call him Jesus
because I don't speak Hebrew ),
and she has not engaged in name-
calling or retaliation.
She can be brief and she can be
verbose and lengthy, but the focus is
on Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible.
"By their fruits you will know them."
In contrast there are those here who
get angry at the message, but, the
message being fundamentally Bible
based, forces them to attack the
messenger, and attack her with
great venom, the exact same sort
of attack that was used against
the Apostles in Acts 24.
Nobody on earth represents all Jews,
get over it. Some may represent
the majority , but not all.
To say that Joyce is not a Jew...
well that makes you judge
and jury, but you're not that
either.
Susanne,
I have a denomination that I
belong to, too, but I've never
even begun to defend it, in and
of itself. I don't think that my
denominational affiliation
is going to save me.
But I'll say this:
we have Methods to our
evangelization, and we
shamelessly try to recruit,
and yes, prostheletize, but
mostly what we do is
lift up Jesus for people of all
stripes to consider and not
ignore any longer.
And there's no need to lie,
to achieve our ends. The Gospel
is good news to the poor in spirit
and to the sinners of the world who
have begun to see what they are.
And we're not ashamed of it.
My religion is all about Jesus.
Jesus is the reason for the season.
Jesus is my hope and Jesus is my
raison d'etre. HE IS is the Word
made flesh. HE IS the son
of the living God. HE IS a
"stumbling block to the Jews, and
to the Greeks a laughingstock."
Revelations 12:17 says:
"And the dragon was wroth with
the woman, and went to make
war with the remnant of her seed,
which keep the commandments
of God, and have the testimony
of Jesus Christ."
You know the amazing thing to me on all of this with the accusations of Joyce, Hebrew/Jewish by birth and genealogy who accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah, I have seen said about the Apostle Paul as well. Hebrew/Jewish by birth of the tribe of Benjamin, a Roman citizen, and according to my reading of the holy scriptures, he never seemed to have a problem with saying who he was as he proclaimed the gospel of Jesus Christ as written in the bible, and was able to teach that Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses, and the prophets as written to the Hebrews. And I guess that he must have been predatory then too as he states here this was his calling:
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
I have no MY Religion, neither does Joyce
and Joyce I would say this puts you in a wonderful place in my eyes, to be called out of Judaism, the religous adding to that Jesus spoke of to the Pharisees; and on very solid biblical ground
Roma,
Re:Wow Susanna, the ADL, does not want the gospel preached to the Jewish people???
Well you need to go back and talk to the Apostle Peter then whom you and the Roman Catholics claim as your first Pope huh???
WOW Roma, your comment is a perfect example of the kind of anti-Semitism the ADL is talking about - as well as the kind of anti-Catholic bigotry I have been talking about.
As for the Apostle Peter, he would NEVER have approved of Christians tricking Jews into "converting" to Christianity by disguising themselves as Jews - if only because such "conversions" based as they would be on falsehood would not be authentic.
In fact, it has been shown that a large percentage of people who have "converted" to "Messianic Judaism" wind up fully converting to Judaism.
Maybe you need to reread an article from the Jewish Voice which I posted a while back:
CATRIEL'S NOTEBOOK:"MESSIANIC SYNAGOGUES" TARGET JEWS BUT HIT CHRISTIANS, SOME OF WHOM ARE CONVERTING TO JUDAISM
By Catriel Sugarman, Researcher on Jewish Issues, Social Critic, Lecturer, acatriel@netvision.net.il
February 2009
In the last few decades, accompanied by a blaze of publicity, hundreds of so-called "Messianic synagogues" have sprung up in cities throughout the US, Europe, and Israel.
Despite their founders’ incessant denials and their unceasing attempts to worm these institutions into the mainstream Jewish community, these "synagogues" have almost always been rightly perceived to be Evangelical Christian Churches in the guise of Jewish houses of worship. Though divested of the most flagrant Christian symbols (e.g., crosses), and cleverly designed to look "Jewish," their toned down Christian message has been, nevertheless, unmistakable.
And they have not been successful in drawing large numbers of Jews. Even with the endless hype and the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars by various Christian bodies over the years, these "Messianics" have succeeded in converting only a fraction of a fraction of the vast number of Jews whom they confidently expected to reach by means of their newly minted ersatz synagogues.
Attracting Non-Jews
Instead something totally unexpected has happened. These "Messianic synagogues" have fired the imagination of countless thousands of non-Jews. Although the founding fathers of "Messianic Judaism" clearly intended the movement to be only a slick evangelical tool to reach Jews and convert them to Christianity, these fledgling "Jewish" congregations have been inundated by perhaps hundreds of thousands of non-Jews who are eager to join them.
Spiritual pilgrims, these non-Jews want to emulate what they see as the more authentic Jewish traditions in worship and lifestyle, but, at the same time, retain their belief in Jesus as their own personal messiah and savior.
According to Reverend Stan Telchin, a Jews-for-Jesus activist, non-Jews make up about 80 percent of those who attend Messianic synagogues.
Other experts suggest that, despite the pervasive "Jewish"—even "Orthodox"—image the Messianics seek desperately to project to the Jewish world, their congregations are probably 90 percent non-Jewish.
cont...
cont...
Few Jews
The vast majority of ethnic Jews who do attend "Messianic synagogues" are either intermarried or the offspring of mixed marriages in which the father is as likely as the mother to have been the Jewish parent, making the individual not necessarily halachically Jewish at all.
Most of the intermarried couples in these congregations, instead of affiliating with an "ordinary" temple or church, solve their religious conflict by compromising on a "Messianic synagogue."
"Statistically, the number of Jews that get lost to Messianic Judaism is a tiny fraction of the Jews who are lost to us through intermarriage, assimilation, and apathy," said Rabbi Maynard Bell, executive director of the Arizona chapter of the American Jewish Committee.
In Tyler, Texas, Rabbi Neal Katz of Reform Congregation Beth El considers the Messianic movement "less of a threat to us than some people might imagine."
"I think the press has to work fairly hard to find real Jews in some of these [Messianic] congregations," he said.
"Jewish Wannabes"
The abundance of Gentiles in a movement that was established to attract Jews has not gone unnoticed. In a piece entitled "Messianic Gentiles" Just Jewish Wannabes?" commentator Jessie Arcona said that, as a Gentile, she has noticed "an undercurrent of frustration" among Jewish members of the Messianic movements because it is so easy to attract non-Jewish participants and so difficult to attract Jews.
"Messianic groups attempt to give [Jews] a place to be without ‘gentilizing’ them," she said, describing the "exciting prospect" of "telling Jewish people that their Messiah has already come."
"And sometimes it works out that way. One here, one there, a few Jewish proselytes appear," she said.
But, she noted, "Embarrassingly, for every Jewish proselyte, there are many more Gentiles who see the appeal of the Messianic movement, and wish to participate. How can the Messianic movement be truly for Messianic Jewish believers, if the place is crawling with Gentiles?"
Way Station before Conversion
Sometimes, Gentiles who are genuinely attracted to Judaism, wind up in Messianic congregations, only as way stations before continuing on to full halachic conversion. Others decide to renounce Christianity and satisfy themselves as Noahides, believers in the One Jewish G-d who, because they do not convert, are mandated to obey only seven commandments instead of 613.
A good example is Patricia Power, who serves as undergraduate academic advisor in the religious studies department at Arizona State University. Four years ago, she converted to Judaism after years of intensive self-study of Torah and Biblical Hebrew while a member of a local Messianic group. Born and raised a Catholic, she joined a Bible church after getting married until friends invited her to join their "Messianic synagogue."
"Judaism spoke to me academically, intellectually, and spiritually, This was not anticipated by the Evangelical movement," she said.
Theological Challenge
The paucity of Jews affiliating with "Messianic synagogues" should not be surprising. Despite 1700 years of missionizing, persecution, pogroms, inquisitions, expulsions, kidnapping of Jewish children, forced conversions, and mass slaughter culminating in the Holocaust in the heart of Christian Europe initiated by Germany, the cradle of the Reformation, Jews, by and large, have stood firm in their beliefs and traditions.
Jewish persistence has presented no small theological challenge to church leaders and thinkers, many of whom have asked: Why has the church been so singularly unsuccessful in its past efforts to convert the Jews and what new techniques can be employed to reach them?
This realization, he explained, prompted highly motivated Christian missionaries to develop an entirely new technique.
cont....
cont.......
A Brutal Truth
Even in this "enlightened" age, those who take the Christian Bible, the "New Testament" (NT), literally, are commanded to try to convert Jews to their way of thinking, which means acceptance of their "Messiah." "Pluralism" as we understand it, cannot be on the agenda for most fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians. On the contrary, their faith requires them to be "witnesses" for their Messiah whom they believe has come and will come again.
Most traditional Evangelicals (even if they support Israel) would perforce agree—even if not out loud—with Jewish literary critic Stanley Fish, that Evangelicals are obligated, if they’re intellectually honest, to proclaim frankly that theirs is the universal truth.
"Any hemming and hawing is just pandering to ‘politically correct’ liberal sensibilities," said Mr. Fish.
This brutal truth shocks many pathetically naïve liberal Jews, who, not taking Judaism seriously themselves, find it almost impossible to believe that there are plenty of people out there who actually do take the dictates of their religion seriously.
Sharing the Gospel
In 1996, The Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, passed a resolution calling on its members to "direct our energies and resources toward the proclamation of the Gospel to the Jewish people." A 1999 prayer guide by the International Mission Board recommended conversion of Jews to Christianity during their High Holy Days "when they are most vulnerable."
Dr. Jim Sibley, Criswell College professor and former consultant on Jewish evangelism, sanctimoniously told the Baptist Press, the denomination’s official news service, "There can be no more extreme form of antisemitism than to deny Jews a chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
Asking Christians to abandon evangelism, he said, would be "akin to asking Jews to eat ham-and-cheese sandwiches."
"Through our neglect of Jewish evangelism, I believe we have actually sinned," he said.
Dr. R. Philip Roberts, president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary concurred. He called for education on the "strategic issues of Jewish evangelism because Jewish evangelism is so intrinsic to the fulfillment of the Great Commission."
It was in this spirit that Rev. Dr. Bailey Smith, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, said "G-d Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." Claiming that he loved the Jews, he made it clear that, in his opinion, only prayers offered in the name of Jesus are accepted by G-d.
Not Just Baptists
This theme is not unique to Baptists. Although Martin Luther was a rabid antisemite whose thoughts were frequently cited by the Nazis, "Apple of His Eye Ministries" is an official Lutheran mission designed to convert Jews to Christianity. Its website, which features a picture of the Kotel and a black-hatted religious Jew, includes reports from the sect’s August 2008 Berlin conference entitled, "A Declaration on the Uniqueness of Christ and Jewish Evangelism in Europe Today."
"Christians everywhere must not look away when Jewish people have the same deep need for forgiveness of sin and true shalom, as do people of all nations. Love in action compels all Christians to share the Gospel with people everywhere, including the Jewish people of Europe," the site proclaims.
Examples of this genre in Christian literature—both hardcopy and electronic—are endless, prompting the natural question: Why are Christians so concerned about the spiritual welfare of the Jewish people, especially when they should be tending their own rather weedy garden?
The root cause lies deep within Christianity itself...read more...
http://jewishvoiceandopinion.com/a/JVO20090205.html
HK,
Re:First you write:
"The only one "slinging mud" here on this blog is Joyce."
Then three sentences later you write:
"As for Fundamentalists, I don't have any quarrel with Fundamentalists at all - except when they are trashing other religions - especially the Catholic religion....which happens to be MY religion."
This sentence above paints with a rather broad brush stroke, a rather unflattering picture of posts on this blog by most posts I have read from a fundamentalist biblical position.
I will concede that I probably should have said "except for the few Fundamentalists who trash other religions.....especially the Catholic religion.....
Respectfully,
Susanna
7/3/2009
Joyce wrote:"Maschiach is waiting for my people to say 'Baruch haba b'Shem Adonai" ( Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord).'"
Dear Joyce,
A biblically literate Jew, as you pretend to be, you evidently do not know that your quotation was lifted from Psalm 118. This psalm is part of the Jewish Hallel service, the six psalms of praise 113 through 118, a psalm that Jews chant on every festival and on every Rosh Hodesh (head of the lunar month).
So if the Messiah is waiting for us to say this, he is apparently not listening very carefully.
Perhaps he is waiting for YOU to say it on your return to an authentic Jewish community instead of the counterfeit one you belong to now. Repent, Joyce, and you shall be saved. God does not want the death of the sinner, but rather, as stated by Ezekiel, that she should repent and live.
Anyone wants to take bets that Joyce will just wait until the heat passes over and then will just go on robotically pushing her belief system?
She'll spam these threads with nonsense information, pretending to be truly interested in fighting the New Age movement. This after saying fighting the New Age movement is useless because coming to Jesus is more important and must be done first.
First and foremost the Messianic movement is a business based on the fact that intermarriage was growing. Those troubled about which way to turn had to find some place to go. Russian Jews who didn't know very much about Judaism because of what happened in the Former Soviet Union are another sucker group. If Baptists want to fund this for their own reasons, it's another source of money. The Messianic agenda fits in with New Age ideas about blending religions. Then there will always be Christians who believe whatever someone Christian says. Follow the money. That's how NA pushes its agenda, through people that trust it.
Why the Cumbey blog with no Jews to convert, no intermarried couples and no Soviet Jews to sucker in? No Christians who will become Messianic Jews. Why waste time here when Joyce could be teaching Messianic Jews in great detail about the New Age movement?
I think it's to destroy the fight against the New Age movement. By dominating the threads anyone reading here can easily believe the information presented is being distorted to present some kind of missionizing Christian agenda. It's to present very weak emotional support for a fight against the New Age movement, as if anyone fighting it is some kind of kook. It's to scare off serious researchers who do not want to be associated with such weak supporters of a fight against the New Age movement. What serious academic would want to associate himself with the kind of posts Joyce presents.
This isn't a fight against some Christian belief supporter. Jews (real Jews and not pretend Jews) and Catholics take on the Protestant Christian community. We'll let od do at at a later date.
Dorothy
Joyce has been tirelessly uplifting
Jesus Christ. Her rational is from the
Bible. Her reasoning is from the Bible
and centered on Jesus
Paul,
Rick Warren makes the same claim for himself that you make about Joyce. So do Benny Hinn and Joyce Meyer. And what is the name of that guy who runs the Crystal Cathedral? There are many others who make these claims about following Jesus Christ besides you and Joyce.
It proves nothing.
Purple Monster
anony said
"Here is a ten minute message to bring refreshment and encourgement to those here that need a reminder of what we're figting for. I know I do. enjoy-"
http://tiny.cc/9KKDZ
Thank you! Very POWERFUL stuff.
It was refreshing & encouraging.
I HOPE EVERYONE WILL GIVE IT A LISTEN.
prayerful
Joyce,
The "drum conference" info you provided along with Constance's speculation of it as part of the AOD is something to really consider here.
Joyce could you in spare time take a look at and comment on
http://trajan.triadtechsys.com/17/Christ_Culture__Kingdom_Excerpts.PDF
and
http://www.wiconi.com/?cid=1024
(sorry for long url's)
There seems to be a similar thread of thought re: Jesus Christ and how a culture interprets/worships Him that parallel's to the tensions here on this blog about denominational/religious differences.
I'm interested in what YOU observe and find as you scan through this site. I'm also concerned whether they are becoming associated with the "emergent" groups.
IMO: I don't think your trying to TRICK anyone.
Thanks,
prayerful
Susanna, I am glad you concur with my interpretation of the Catholic position on non-Catholics who follow God in their hearts. I know you are a real scholar of Catholicism, and so I am relieved that I am not misinterpreting there, and I'm joyful that this IS the way the Church thinks.
Although I have attended non-Catholic churches since parting ways with a "bad" Catholic diocese,
I can never be a part of an evangelical or "mainstream" church which does not appreciate the traditions and contributions of the Catholic Church. My all-time favorite evangelical church in California had a pastor who did appreciate Catholic and "anglo-Catholic contributions, including that of C.S. Lewis. There was a contingent of Catholics in that evangelical church's Bible study; I was not the only one singing in the Catholic choir and going to the evangelical Bible study. Only in America!
I would return to the Catholic Church were it not that I believe
the hierarchy allows several different bad things to go on, and does not stop these...I tried to go back more than once, and these things would always surface.
It's why I pray for the rapture to come soon; there seems to be no adequate guidance among Christian denominations today. I am always in danger of thinking I'm the only one who knows the truth, and I know that is intellectual pride, and I don't want to fall into that.
We so badly need a true Guide.
Mariel
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Hi Roma,
The devil can do that too when it suits his agenda (See Matthew 4:6).
It proves nothing.
Purple Monster
Hi Mariel,
I appreciate your thoughtful posts on this thread, especially the one on interfaith dialogue.
Brace yourself for the inevitable attacks and insults to which you have just left yourself open by the self-appointed "spokespeople for Jesus Christ" who post here; given that you are an ex-Catholic and not a practising one, this may temper the attacks somewhat.
In fact, the more that I think about it, the elect may even refrain from attacking a fellow Protestant (pre-trib at that!) altogether and continue to go solely after Susanna.
Anyway, thanks for making me think today.
Purple Monster
Dear Mariel,
Thank you for your kind words, Mariel.
It is such a blessing to find another person here like you who actually knows what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches.
Constance is very knowledgable in that respect too....as are a few others who post here.
Unfortunately, there are all too many people who hate what they THINK is the Catholic Church.
LOL If THAT were the Catholic Church, I would hate it too!
I know others who have had the misfortune of belonging to what they have discerned as a "bad diocese." So you are by all means not alone!
You sound like a good, sincere person to me. At the end of the day, I think you can count on the fact that God will NOT leave you hanging!
I will certainly keep you in my prayers.
P.S.
Mariel, I am a HUGE fan of C.S. Lewis.
I have nearly all his books in what I have dubbed my "C.S. Lewis canon."
Have you ever read his science fiction trilogy?
Susanna, yes, I read the C.S.Lewis SF trilogy, or at least one of the books. At the time I thought it was misogynist, but now I realize the themes of the book were mostly right.
My favorite C.S. Lewis book is the one which was my evangelical pastor's "favorite after the Bible", "The Great Divorce."
Mariel
Mariel,
I have read C.S. Lewis' book THE GREAT DIVORCE... several times. :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce
For me, one of the profound truths embodied in the story is that God, who has endowed man with the gift of free will, doesn't "send" anyone to heaven or hell against his/her will.
For example, those who go to hell CHOOSE to go there.
LOL I recall a book written by the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen entitled GO TO HEAVEN (1960) in which Archbishop Sheen explained that if God were to round up all the damned souls, declare a kind of "divine amnesty" and haul them all into Heaven, this would be a great cruelty on the part of God...because, as Archbishop Sheen put it, "HEAVEN, FOR THE DAMNED, WOULD BE A GREATER HELL THAN HELL."
By the way, Archbishop Sheen was a great admirer of C.S. Lewis, and the admiration was mutual.
Lewis came to my rescue in secondary school. Fresh out of Catholic school with a firm conviction in Christ, I was confronted by the evolutionary and humanist dogma presented by my new teachers. It was refreshing to accidentally come across “The Magician’s Nephew” and then “The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe”. I love “The Great Divorce” and the “Trilogy”. Lewis wasn’t always theologically correct but I owe him a great debt.
Prayerful,
I can't devote as much time and space here to the links you forward on the indigenous people because there's a lot there. Let me just cut and paste your question and address it:
"There seems to be a similar thread of thought re: Jesus Christ and how a culture interprets/worships Him that parallel's to the tensions here on this blog about denominational/religious differences."
I don't think this is quite the same issue on the blog, because first of all there are people on the blog that simply don't believe in Yeshua, period.
There are others that believe that the ecumenism of the interfaith movement is not problematic. There are those who believe in Yeshua and have different denominational affiliations, and probably very different theology from one another.
I am a Jew, whose family was killed in the Shoah, discovered my origins later in life and a believer in Yeshua..and have prayed and studied these issues, but arrive at a slightly different conclusion. Some call this "Messianic".. Labels are tricky so I'll avoid the labels because even the world "Christian" can mean many different things to different people too. I'm a Jew who believes in Yeshua, and I'll leave it there.
The links you sent seem to be addressing the issue of "contextualization"...can we redeem things that are "pagan". This is always a discussion in circles where people are sharing the gospel with nations that previously engaged in pagan practices.
One of links you send discusses some assumptions about what Jews in Second Temple believed about salvation which I disagree with. Salvation was never through obeying "the Law".
Torah doesn't teach this. Salvation was God bringing Israel out of Egypt by His strong right hand, but maintaining the covenant relationship with God, like a marriage for example requires fidelity. If Israel would commit spiritual adultery, it was grounds for death of that relationship, just as Torah teaches about marital infidelity. Disobedience means exile.. even though God promised to bring them back. When we sin, we too break of relationship with God..
Where it gets dicey is that by Second Temple Judaism, only the House of Judah still existed as a nation and to prevent themselves from falling into the same errors that their forefathers did, they built walls in the Temple court, thus the dividing wall, and walls around the Torah, to keep from breaking it, but sometimes they missed the point of the commands, thus Yeshua's Sermon on the Mount where He interprets the commandments. "it was said.... but I say..." giving full meaning to God's instructions.
I think this is the issue we're dealing with when Peter has his vision about the unclean animals, a wrong interpretation of God's desire to see Israel be a light to the nations. The Jews had a fortress mentality, and for some good reasons. They were afraid of assimilation, which is exactly what you have today anyway. It was a question of national survival, or so they thought, but God's vision is so much larger. The story of Chanukah, and Antiochus Epiphanes, and being under Roman occupation can help us to understand a lot about the mentality of Second Temple Judaism.
Solomon, in the First Temple period knew that God's house was a house of prayer for all the nations... Solomon took this a step too far and intermarried to form political alliances and in doing so brought idolatry back into the kingdom. Post-exile there were stricter barriers between the Jews returning from Babylon and foreigners.
If we look in Torah, God's intention was not to have barrier between foreigners and Israel, but that these foreigners should attach themselves to Israel and obey the same Torah as Israel..
Num. 15:16 ‘There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”
The pagan nations who were enemies of Israel, stayed enemies of Israel, but from among them were always the rare individuals like Rahab and Ruth who attached themselves to Israel.
cont'd
cont'd
As for the concerns about the Emerging Church, I agree that this idea of contextualization and wanting to make things "relevant" is problematic.
I don't believe that believers in Yeshua have to follow "Jewish culture" but I think Torah ( God's teachings and instructions ) are for everyone. This is a subtle but important distinction. A lot of what exists in Judaism today comes from say, Eastern European culture, or Sephardic culture, even things as like what to eat for Passover for example.. Having said that, we can find Torah commands in Judaism being lived out, albeit without the revelation of Yeshua.
I believe that this is a point of confusion for the institutional church in the 2nd and 3rd centuries where they threw the baby out with the bathwater.. i.e. They threw out the Torah along with the Jewish culture.. There is no reason for a Roman believer in Yeshua to follow Jewish culture, but if they attached themselves to Israel, and God's people instead of being " a Roman church" they might have been wild branches of an olive tree. I think Paul was aware of the risk of this when he writes the letter to the Romans, and warns about this.
Paul was hard to understand as Peter said, and so people us Paul, not only to "contextualize" but they take his words as a license to break God's holy instructions. We are saved by faith, no doubt, but our sanctification comes from being hearers and doers of the Word... Following Torah was never a means to salvation, because eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil without first eating of the Tree of Life will not bring life, it will bring death, but when we eat of the Tree of Life, the knowledge of good and evil will not kill us because we already have life. The Torah is holy, but it won't save us, and we can't properly understand it without Yeshua. When we have life in Yeshua, following God's instructions is just part of being His disciples.
Having Yeshua, and being a new creation should create a desire in us to do all that He commanded.
Matt. 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least ain the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Would Paul contradict Yeshua? I don't think so..
The word fulfill is to fill up to the full measure until it is overflowing with meaning, not to fulfill and stop as many think..
The risk of having indigenous congregations filled with syncretism is what I get from these links. We know what happened to Israel when they did this. Exile...Personally, based on God's very clear instructions in Torah, I don't think we should adopt the practices of the nations. There is a difference between culture and religious practice and in some cultures it's very difficult to the draw the line ( like Islam) so this calls for discernment. The risk of not doing this is very great and can keep people enslaved to their sins.. This is why God told Abram to "leave his father's house". When put our trust in Yeshua's atonement, I think one of the first things we should do is see what "leaving our father's house means to us" i.e. put aside the practices of Babylon.
The absence of the teaching of Torah, in the light of Yeshua is probably one of the single biggest problems facing the churches today.. This will lead to apostasy because it always did in the past.. Look at what happened in the book of Judges, look at the book of Kings and it's very clear. You cannot know God, apart from His teachings and instructions. To say, "Jesus loves me, halleluyah, I'm saved" and ignore His Word is contradiction.
My sheep will hear my voice...
Joyce
"my sheep will hear My voice" should have been in parenthesis... that's Yeshua speaking, not me...
Joyce
Prayerful,
Just want to highlight one line from the site of Wiconi:
"To organize and lead international Native Dance and Performing Arts Team(s), to share the beauty of our cultures, tribal and personal stories to build bridges of peace and understanding in the global community. "
Culture in and of itself is not bad. God created different cultures and peoples, but the question is should we glorify culture or God? I see here, that culture is being emphasized to "build bridges of peace and understanding" when in reality the only one who can bring peace and "shalom" ( wholeness) is Yeshua. Global community built on the basis of cultural expression sounds a little too UN for me.
This is the great risk, we have many who want to have this syncretism as a means to building peace.. when true peace came through Yeshua's death on a tree.. What we believe and what we act on is very important.. If our doctrine is just a little off, we miss the mark, which is the definition of sin in Torah.. This group will build a false peace and compromise God's Word in order to do this..
I studied a little bit about shamanism, but am by no means an expert...It sounds to me like they want to hang on to things from native culture that have clear links to shamanism, which is nothing more than animism, and it sounds like they have just tacked on "the spirit of Jesus" as a substitute for other "spirits".
Joyce
Susanna,
You posted:
"I will concede that I probably should have said "except for the few Fundamentalists who trash other religions.....especially the Catholic religion.....
Respectfully,
Susanna
8:44 PM
Well well it would seem this quote provides a moment of agreement for us in that you as well as I understand Catholisism as a religion. However, in the interest of clarity, the fundamentalist Biblical position is not a religion, it is in point of fact a relationship to and with God, based on faith in the revealed statements of evidence presented in the Bible by God, to which each volitional human being may decide to enter in. Thus the label "fundamentalist" is usually used to describe those, like me, who communicate the importance of understanding the Truths contained in, and communicated to us,by God, in the Bible.
It is, actually, the watershed issue that provides no small amount of rather, spirited, dialogue here and elsewhere.
Calvary changed everything, that is a key issue for all to address in all it's factual implications.
How each person understands calvary is one thing, how God understands calvary, IS, the most important thing.
A key rule of thumb that was presented to me that I think is a good one, and that is to always start your theology with God and work your way towards man. If you do the reverse you in all truthfulness place yourself in the camp, knowingly or unknowingly, of what this blog is all about i.e. the New Age movement.
Thank you for the opportunity to help clarify some things that we have, of necessity been posting back and forth, between us.
Have a nice day.
Respectfully,
HK
HK,
You are right. Our respective views on Christianity as a "religion" vs. Christianity as a "relationship" IS a bone of contention between Protestant Fundamentalists and Catholics.
It is sometimes hard for people to understand why until they understand that Catholics believe that Christianity is a SUPERNATURAL RELIGION (i.e. REVEALED BY GOD).....as opposed to the "man made religion" certain people have tried to make it out to be.
RELIGION, as defined by Wikipedia,
is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, God or gods, or ultimate truth."
Since "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,(Rom. 10:17), my theology begins with my Rule of Faith (Written Tradition/Scripture and Oral Tradition/Apostolic Succession - which are inseparable and the one cannot contradict the other) as developed by the Church Fathers and Doctors - especially St. Thomas Aquinas in his famous "five proofs for the existence of God" - which in so far as the primary name of God is "BEING"(Exodus 3:14-15) - can be argued from necessity and proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
I am very well aware that Fundamentalists do not regard their position as a "religion" but as a "relationship."
I am also aware that unlike the Catholic Rule of Faith the Protestant Fundamentalist Rule of Faith is "Sola Scriptura" a.k.a. Scriptures Alone").
Since, as a Catholic, I make a distinction between the Christian "SUPERNATURAL RELIGION" (i.e. because revealed by God) and "man made religion" (because invented by man), I have no problem in saying that it is religion that defines the kind of "relationship" anyone has with God - including the nature of the "God" in whom one believes in the first place.
Religion is also the way in which a person expresses and communicates his "relationship" with God......both to God(through prayer) and to his neighbor (by actions that signify love of neighbor out of love for God)
I would even go so far as to say that according to this definition the Christian religion IS the relationship with God and His only begotten Son Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ according to the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds.
To divorce the terms "religion" and "relationship and to focus solely on the one at the expense of the other can result, on the one hand, in "religion" for its own sake" which would be a form of idolatry....or... a "relationship" without any of the material anchors into reality that Sacramental Supernatural religion provides in order to prevent a person from either hovering on the brink of "angelism" at best and at worst, hovering on the brink of gnosticism with its horror of matter which is regarded by gnostics as "evil" because (according to them) created by an "evil" god.
As you can see, I am very much aware that at the extremities, both of our positions are capable of being poisoned by erroneous beliefs that are part and parcel of the New Age Movement.
Have a Nice Day AND a Great Fourth of July Holiday!
Respectfully,
Susanna
Susanna,
[ Sorry this will be in two parts..]
While my inclination is to respond to your post to me, sentence by sentence, due to what I consider is a combination of massive disagreement and convoluted distortion, I will just post quotes from your post with a breif comment in response.
"It is sometimes hard for people to understand why until they understand that Catholics believe that Christianity is a SUPERNATURAL RELIGION (i.e. REVEALED BY GOD).....as opposed to the "man made religion" certain people have tried to make it out to be."
I understand what Catholics believe, I was raised in a Catholic family, and attended Catholic schools, primary and secondary.
People are not trying to make it out to be man made. It is either man made or it is not, an intellectually honest evaluation of historical facts can allow a person to draw their own conclusions. I have done so and have concluded (fasten your seatbelt ,please) that it is.
This next quote requires a split commentary so it will be separated by my interjected response in brackets:
"Since "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,(Rom. 10:17),[ Literally in the Greek "hearing" is "the thing heard" (in part 9A) of that verse, and "the thing heard" in part(B) of it]and my theology begins with my Rule of Faith (Written Tradition/Scripture and Oral Tradition/Apostolic Succession [ these are three things that you consider equal in substance, however, I do not, because they cannot be factually supported by a factual scriptural comparative analysis from the original languages of the Scriptures] - which are inseparable and the one cannot contradict the other)[ these three things are a contradiction in a dynamic sense] as developed by the Church Fathers and Doctors - especially St. Thomas Aquinas in his famous "five proofs for the existence of God" - which in so far as the primary name of God is "BEING"(Exodus 3:14-15) - can be argued from necessity and proven beyond a reasonable doubt. [whether you want to recognize it or not, you have just made man the source of your theological authority here]
"I am also aware that unlike the Catholic Rule of Faith the Protestant Fundamentalist Rule of Faith is "Sola Scriptura" a.k.a. Scriptures Alone").[Congratulations for a correct statement, if you mean to say that sola scriptura is a fundamentalist Protestant's only source of their faith.]
"Since, as a Catholic, I make a distinction between the Christian "SUPERNATURAL RELIGION" (i.e. because revealed by God)[ your conjecture, again a position that cannot be supported by Scripture] and "man made religion" (because invented by man),[you cannot logically make a distinction between two things that are the same, of coures I state this from my sola scriptora position.] I have no problem in saying that it is religion that defines the kind of "relationship" anyone has with God [religion does indeed define a "kind " of "relationship", however is is a "defined relationship" from man's perspective, not God's perspective as He reveals it in the Scriptures.]]- including the nature of the "God" in whom one believes in the first place.
[ The nature of God, His Person and work is of course a vital issue for evaluation in order to believe, of course, based on verfiable proofs of truth pertaining to Who He is, as He reveals Himself to us, and provides the revelation, which is in my view sola scriptora.]
I would even go so far as to say that according to this definition the Christian religion IS the relationship with God and His only begotten Son Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ according to the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds.[ Here again you replace the Bible as the source of your theology, and present man(men) as your source of authority, whether you see that or not, when the Scriptures themselves are far superior(infinately superior) as a factual, true, source of verifiable facts pertaining to God.]"
Continued below,
HK
Susanna, (part 2)
"To divorce the terms "religion" and "relationship [I do because they need separation]and to focus solely on the one at the expense of the other [ not at the "expense", but to make a vital distinction where one is needed.]can result, on the one hand, in "religion" for its own sake" which would be a form of idolatry[ well, yes, we amazingly agree here]....or... a "relationship" without any of the material anchors [ I would consider the spiritual anchor of the relationship of God and man to be the revealed truths God provides in the Scripture] into reality that Sacramental Supernatural religion [this term of yours is a human construct, no matter how you try to legitimize it with caps] provides in order to prevent a person from either hovering on the brink of "angelism" at best and at worst, hovering on the brink of gnosticism with its horror of matter which is regarded by gnostics as "evil" because (according to them) created by an "evil" god.[ again the sola scriptora view, is the only remedy here for the hypothetical that precedes; either the Bible stands alone as the only true, authorative source of God's truth as His vital communication to man for man to know who God is and who man is and what man's situation is, or we are left with human constructs, no matter what we choose to term them, or the Bible is reduced to an esoteric ancient compilation of vocabulary, at the whim of minipulation of man, to make of it what they would desire to.]"
"As you can see, I am very much aware that at the extremities, both of our positions are capable of being poisoned by erroneous beliefs that are part and parcel of the New Age Movement." [I am not certain that you are aware of "erroneous beliefs" that give me a sense of comfort with your entire post.]"
I am aware that we, in all honestly will continue to agree to disagree, on many doctrinal, theological issues. Having said that, I do think some areas of what you find in your research and share here are very helpful in some crucial areas to many others who come to this blog for awareness of the dangers that the New Age Movement which are legion. For that I thank you and the efforts you make.
My hope is that we still see the importance of helping people understand the perilous times in which we live, and can support each other in that regard. Hope you have a nice holiday weekend as well.
Best regards,
HK
I was a New Age teacher. I didn't hear Mary Jo... When one undergoes the sea change out of that mind set, one can always still sense it when it arises.
One thing we need to be just as afraid of is the censorship which will come in with students and parents who demand we conform to Islamic perceptions. We must not be
so censoring that we make a way for those people to dictate what can be taught. And they will try. Their religion says they must try. Sometimes they will agree with our perception of what should be censored, but when they do not agree, they will be much more insistent than we usually are that THEIR rule will be in effect.
Caught between a rock and a hard place.
Mariel
HK,
You are obviously not content to "agree to disagree." Otherwise you would have simply said so and moved on and I would not have continued to pursue the issue further.
Actually, I might have even let your last comments go except for the fact that you (by your own admission) also claim to be an ex-Catholic.
If you are trying to convince me that your position is correct(as you appear to be), you will have an extremely hard time doing so, because the fact is that nowhere in the Bible does it say that the "Bible only" is to be the Christian Rule of faith.
If Sola Scriptura were to be true, according to Sola Scriptura, then this statement would have to appear somewhere in the Bible in one form or another implicit or explicit. In fact it is anti-Biblical!
While 2 Timothy 3:16 explains that the entire Bible is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, etc.... it does not clearly state that "only" the Bible is God-breathed and is useful for teaching etc.....
And neither can shifting the focus of 2 Timothy 3:16 from the beginning to the end make the passage say what it doesn't say because it is “teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” that makes “the man of God” thoroughly equipped for every good work — not the Bible.
Moreover, the context makes clear that the Scripture St. Paul means is the Jewish Bible, the Christians’ Old Testament. Addressing St. Timothy in the immediately preceding verse, the Apostle reminds him, “from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 3:15). The only Scriptures that St. Timothy could have known from childhood were the Sacred Scriptures of the Jews — a clear deduction that the Protestants who appeal to this passage simply do not make.
No matter how you cut it, Sola Scriptura cannot be proved from the Bible.
Actually, the oral Christian tradition preceded the written Christian tradition.
The Church founded by Christ did not come from the Bible. The Bible has been handed down to us by the Church.
cont...
cont...
Another thing. The Bible does not interpret itself. Where in the Bible does it say that "private interpretation" is allowed?
Under the Reformation "private interpretation" system, we can see from a historical perspective that there are as many - often contradictory -"interpretations" of Holy Writ as people have faces.
Why should I beleive that your "interpretation" of the Scriptures is more correct than anyone else's?
You clearly do not understand what Catholics believe. You may have gone to Catholic school, but you were obviously not very well educated in the Catholic faith.
It would appear that the so-called "convoluted distortion" you ascribe to my reasoning is more applicable to yours than it is to mine.
You have to do some pretty fancy revisionist footwork in order to arrive at a "Biblical" rationale behind ditching fifteen hundred years of Christian history.
So when you hit me with the argument that one or more of my beliefs are not "Biblical," that doesn't really impress me very much, because historically, it is the "Sola Scriptura"
Rule of Faith that was man made in so far as it was invented by Martin Luther.
Re:I would even go so far as to say that according to this definition the Christian religion IS the relationship with God and His only begotten Son Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ according to the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds.
[ Here again you replace the Bible as the source of your theology, and present man(men) as your source of authority, whether you see that or not, when the Scriptures themselves are far superior(infinately superior) as a factual, true, source of verifiable facts pertaining to God.]"
Are you saying that you do not acknowledge the Chalcedonian or the Nicene Creeds which are most certainly Biblical and acknowledged by most Protestants as well as Roman and Orthodox Catholics?
Because if not, you may call yourself a "Christian," but it is a "Christianity" of your own or someone else's devising, and we can have nothing further to discuss.
And while I have no doubt that you sincerely believe what you believe, I believe that you are sincerely wrong if you reject the Creeds of Chalcedon and Nicaea.
Respectfully,
Susanna
Susana,
Ok, I will agree to disagree.
Best,
HK
p.s. I never made any statement to impress you, nor would I attempt to talk a hole through a stone wall...
7/5/2009
Joyce; you are using a mistranslation that falsifies the intent of Numbers 15:16. Here is the correct translation:
"There shall be one law and one ordinance for you and the proselyte who resides [with you]."
A proselyte is a converted alien; not just any alien. Correcting your mistranslation sheds an entirely different light on your thesis.
As to your other thesis; "Salvation was never through obeying 'the Law;'" from where did you get this astounding "revelation?" Here is what the Bible says:
GEN 26:4 And I will make [Abraham's] seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
GEN 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Deut 30:8. And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.---
15. Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,
16. inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, ato observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.
17. But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and you will be drawn astray, and you will prostrate yourself to other deities and serve them,
18. I declare to you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof.
19. This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live;
20. To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them.
Joyce; repentance is one of the commandments so please don't repeat the shibboleth that no one is without sin. The Law provides for sinners.
Ezek 33:10. Now you, son of man, say to the house of Israel; So have you spoken, saying: For our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and because of them we are melting away, so how can we live? 11. Say to them: As I live, says the Lord God, I do not wish for the death of the wicked, but for the wicked to repent of his way so that he may live. Repent, repent of your evil ways, for why should you die, O house of Israel!
Ps. 130:3. O God, if You keep [a record of] iniquities, O Lord, who will stand?
4. For forgiveness is with You, in order that You be feared. ---
7. Israel, hope to the Lord, for kindness is with the Lord and much redemption is with Him.
8. And He will redeem Israel from all their iniquities.
Joyce: THINK!
7/6/2009
Joyce wrote: "I'm a Jew who believes in Yeshua, and I'll leave it there."
But the Bible does not leave it there; having, as it does, stricter standards of worship for Jews than for gentiles.
Deut. 4:19. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven which the Lord your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.
20. But the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron crucible, out of Egypt, to be a people of His possession, as of this day. ---
33. Did ever a people hear God's voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live?
34. Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of a[nother] nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35. You have been shown, in order to know that the Lord He is God; there is none else besides Him.
36. From the heavens, He let you hear His voice to instruct you, and upon the earth He showed you His great fire, and you heard His words out of the midst of the fire,
37. and because He loved your forefathers and chose their seed after them, and He brought you out of Egypt before Him with His great strength---
39. And you shall know this day and consider it in your heart, that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth below; there is none else.
40. And you shall observe His statutes and His commandments, which I command you this day, that it may be well with you and your children after you, and that you may prolong your days upon the earth which the Lord your God gives you forever.
Deut. 5:3 . Not with our forefathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, we, all of whom are here alive today.
4. Face to face, the Lord spoke with you at the mountain out of the midst of the fire:---
6. "I am the Lord your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7. You shall not have the gods of others in My presence.---
9. You shall not prostrate yourself before them, nor worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a zealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.---
26. Would that their hearts be like this, to fear Me and to keep all My commandments all the days, that it might be well with them and with their children ---
29. Keep them to perform [them] as the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside either to the right or to the left.
30. In all the way which the Lord, your God, has commanded you, you shall go, in order that you may live and that it may be well with you,
7/6/2009
Joyce wrote: "The pagan nations who were enemies of Israel, stayed enemies of Israel, but from among them were always the rare individuals like Rahab and Ruth who attached themselves to Israel. '
How ironic that you praise these even as you have DETACHED yourself from Israel!
7/6/2009
Susanne wrote: "No matter how you cut it, Sola Scriptura cannot be proved from the Bible."
Dear Susanne,
More robustly, the Bible itself actually contradicts the concept of Sola scriptura:
Deut. 17:. If a matter eludes you in judgment, between blood and blood, between judgment and judgment, or between lesion and lesion, words of dispute in your cities, then you shall rise and go up to the place the Lord, your God, chooses.
9. And you shall come to the Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment.
10. And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you.
11. According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left.
12. And the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel.
13. And all the people shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer act wantonly.
Of course these verses apply only within the parameters that the explanations given do not contradict, add to, or subtract from the Bible. But God recognized that the Bible itself could ipso facto apply to any situation without exegesis.
Have a great week,
Len
6/7/2009
The last sentance should have obviously read:
But God recognized that the Bible itself could NOT ipso facto apply to any situation without exegesis.
Joyce,
At this time I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to look at and respond with your comment.
I will respond more later to day.ok
prayerful
I have missed much of the commentary on this thread and am endeavoring to catch up, HOWEVER, I believe Susanna's scriptural interpretation of who will be saved is correct. The relevant scripture is found in Romans 2 which proclaim that God is no respecter of persons -- people are judged by the knowledge they have -- at least that's how I read Romans Chapter 2.
Constance
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