Duane Elgin is a New Ager who has been on my personal radar since discovering the Movement and its direction in 1981. John Earl Fetzer was then the owner of the Detroit Tigers and a vast network of radio and television stations in mid-size cities such as Kalamazoo, Michigan where he was headquartered. Fetzer was a former Seventh Day Adventist who completely apostatized from any semblance of orthodox forms of Christianity. He was one of the New Agers of whom Marilyn Ferguson wrote in
The Aquarian Conspiracy (1980).
Duane Elgin was the author of
Voluntary Simplicity and has been a continuous and contiguous force in the "Sustainable Development" and environmental movements, including but not limited to "overpopulation" concerns.
John Earl Fetzer may have very well been a primary financier of the April 25,1982 newspaper ads run globally proclaiming "The Christ is Now Here."
At any rate, Fetzer was thoroughly on board for the "cleansing action" the 1980 through 1982 era when New Agers were prophesying doom for their Christian opposition. Files I have downloaded from the Fetzer websites conclusively prove that and I have them multiply backed up in many places in case they go back to their usual game of "now you see us, now you don't" is again played,
There has been a close working relationship between the Fetzer Institute and Duane Elgin for a very long time.
Also,interesting to my research and wonderings why Hitler's mysticism was so long concealed from all is the fact that John Earl Fetzer was in charge of media censorship during World War II. He was, per his writings, one of the first persons to enter Joseph Goebbels office after the allies took Berlin.
Duane Elgin has made two of his books available for free download from his
website. I took full advantage and downloaded
Awakening Earth (1992) and
Choosing Earth (2020).
I suggest you read the following from his Awakening Earth (pages) very carefully and with prayerful reflection on what it means to our future should the Fetzer Institute and Elgin forces get their way:
Religious Fanaticism—Because so many of humankind’s wars have been
fought between people with differing religious views and because the world is entering
a time of growing compression and proximity among people, religious differences will
present enormous challenges for humanity. Under conditions of great planetary stress,
different historical religions could coalesce around charismatic spiritual leaders and
come into conflict. The planet could then descend into religious wars, perhaps with a
new era of crusades intended to liberate the world from unbelieving infidels. Religious
fanaticism could lead to spiritual tyranny and undermine trust in a compassionate and
broadly shared spiritual ethic that can bind humanity into a single family.
Another possibility is that a significant fraction of the world may view extreme
planetary distress as a sure indication of a coming apocalypse and feel relatively little
concern for starvation, pollution, and resource depletion. If these are seen as the last
days before a miraculous spiritual transformation, then people may assume that “God”
will intervene and clean up the mess. Instead of mounting a vigorous and creative
response to the challenge of sustainability, people may simply wait for the apocalyptic
end, or abrupt transformation, of the world
Stay tuned!
Constance
1,287 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 1000 of 1287 Newer› Newest»11:07 am: Thank you for that and you are certainly forgiven for anything you directed at me. I've been a jackhole at time (and I'll probably do it again). I really wasn't correcting anyone but myself. I actually read a post on Craig's blog the other day that reminded me to try argue with ideas and not people.
12:03 pm: That's a good verse that hopefully many feel convicted by. Here's the Matthew Henry (concise) Commentary on that verse:
"Hypocrisy is wickedness, which God will judge. And it is too common, for those who declare the Lord's statutes to others, to live in disobedience to them themselves. This delusion arises from the abuse of God's long-suffering, and a wilful mistake of his character and the intention of his gospel. The sins of sinners will be fully proved on them in the judgment of the great day. The day is coming when God will set their sins in order, sins of childhood and youth, of riper age and old age, to their everlasting shame and terror. Let those hitherto forgetful of God, given up to wickedness, or in any way negligent of salvation, consider their urgent danger. The patience of the Lord is very great. It is the more wonderful, because sinners make such ill use of it; but if they turn not, they shall be made to see their error when it is too late. Those that forget God, forget themselves; and it will never be right with them till they consider. Man's chief end is to glorify God: whoso offers praise, glorifies him, and his spiritual sacrifices shall be accepted. We must praise God, sacrifice praise, put it into the hands of the Priest, our Lord Jesus, who is also the altar: we must be fervent in spirit, praising the Lord. Let us thankfully accept God's mercy, and endeavour to glorify him in word and deed."
11:13 am - very interesting. I referred to it as "MAGA ideology", not "MAGA Theology". Since there is nothing scriptural or theological about MAGA, I googled to try to understand what you might be talking about and came upon this interesting article discussing "MAGA political theology". Sure sounds like it is its own brand of white intersectionality and identity politics:
"“Trumpism” is not a coherent socio-political doctrine. Where it does cohere is in its symbolic attempts to parry the cultural shocks endured by the self-perceived victims of liberal progressivism – those who see whiteness not as a privilege, but as a state of fragility, those who also narrate this fragility as constitutive of the end of Christian America or, more broadly, Judeo-Christian civilization. The rationale for Trumpism is not simply policy-based, or economic. Rather, resonating under Trumpism and the promise to Make America Great Again (MAGA) is a white political theology which is deployed in a new “spiritual war” for the soul of America and indeed, the soul of the West. More troubling is how this “spiritual war” articulates itself in the new culture wars and, for some, the inauguration of a geo-political apocalypse which finally resolves the clash of civilizations. This article investigates how MAGA functions as white political theology both within the White House and amongst Trump’s base. Following from this, we explore this political theology as a vast ideological apparatus engendered by neo-liberalism in spiritual-racialist terms."
https://journals.openedition.org/lisa/9887?lang=en
x
💩
RayB,
A while back you stated:
I really don't want to enter into this Cessationism controversy, but would like to make the following observations:
First, the Apostolic age was unique. People were instantly healed, the blind were given their site [sic], and the dead were raised back to life. Tongues were KNOWN LANGUAGES that were spoken by people that were not of that dialect, among various groups of people, which were understood by them to be a miracle. WHERE is any of that taking place today?
So, you “don’t want to enter into this Cessationism controversy”… …yet you did. You provide your opinion with no Scripture to back it up. Here’s the bottom line: given that you are not omniscient, you cannot possibly know of all instances of spiritual gifts in action—fake/false or real/legitimate—therefore, you are merely going by your limited experiential or secondhand knowledge.
I provided an example of tongues-speaking fitting your description above, yet you criticize my terminology (“altar call”) with your comment @ 10:09 AM. Whatever one wants to term it, the calling of people to repentance is certainly Biblical, for it’s right in Acts 2:
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
When I challenged you to exegete 1Cor 13:8-12 (@ 2:39 PM), you initially state you will (@ 10:41 PM), then you cowardly change your mind and refuse to do so, as you are “not going to get into this unprofitable Cessationism debate after all” (@ 11:54 PM), yet you provide more secondhand and experiential knowledge (12:29 AM), thereby continuing in the debate.
What is “unprofitable” about discussing and exegeting Scripture?
Then you ask me to “study the scriptures for yourself” (10:09 AM) when I had already provided my exegesis (7:24 AM). Perhaps you can show me and others how my exegesis to support continuationism is wrong?
Regarding “hyper-charismaticism”, I would apply the term to individuals such as those mentioned in the Justin Peters/Costi Hinn video someone provided: Benny Hinn, Bill Johnson, Todd Bentley, and Kenneth Copeland. All these individuals hyper focus on charismaticism.
I await your exegesis of 1Cor 13:8-12 to support your cessationist stance. From the English. Just as I did to support my continuationist stance.
x @ 10:18 PM
No.
Flat no.
Of course, there is nothing Scriptural about MAGA. MAGA is a slogan. To me that slogan is like Baseball, motherhood, and apple pie, just a representation of some old fashioned American goodness that would be good to see again in this country (but it is gone--that Grace has been used up). My post was going deeper than mere sentimentality, was rather about my own personal convictions. Something that typically shallow approach of yours refuses to take into account. But that's your problem since you are trying to broad brush and categorize and label people with the intent to splinter and divide, only proving the nasty inside your own cynical head and heart. You are no brother in Jesus that is for sure.
So I was talking about what *you* try to make it out to be because you give people like me no grace for what I know, what I think, or understand, so you did not get inside my head and figure anything out. You did once again out yourself though as you read my comment to totally twist it to be something you want it to be, some kind of "ism" instead of just what I did in my choosing in voting and acting accordingly, based out of a Biblical worldview (which I have and you obviously do not)..
So nice try, jerk.
Missed me (and millions of others) by miles.
You are stupidly wrong in your guessing to pin some label or bracket on someone else, anyone else. Who do you think you are, x?
Get your own beliefs square with the Bible and we'll talk.
Otherwise, you need to repent for your over the top judgments of others.
You are a bitter person. Plain as day. That description sticks to you like fly paper. You do not even remotely look for common ground with other believers as you constantly virtue signal others. Sad to say that the Spirit bears witness that you are not a brother in the Lord, but an accuser like your father the devil.
"Hypocrisy is wickedness, which God will judge. And it is too common, for those who declare the Lord's statutes to others, to live in disobedience to them themselves.
That shoe has a nice snug fit for the fundamentally hypocritical poster X.
(I meant to tag this quote with my 12:31 AM post.)
"reminded me to try argue with ideas and not people."
Try harder.
I have told you this before.
You're batting zero in this too, X.
You see X @ 10:18 PM making the obligatory show of answering (VERY likely) his OWN 11:07 AM post. And endeavor to ingratiate himself with the readers of this blogspot by calling himself a "jackhole" to. try to make him look like just a regular guy. Then further cloaking himself with sheep's clothing by quoting Bible verses to get us to lower our defenses...
...as he then sneaks in and sticks the blade in.
Craig
"I provided an example of tongues-speaking fitting your description above"
You provided hearsay. Sorry.
Craig,
It has taken you two days of digging to come up with slandering dirt you consider a gem of evidence in your favor against RayB.
A titanic failure on your part once again. You may have gotten away with your hoodwink had you thrown a little Koine Greek in the confusion of your convolusions too, lol.
Professor Craig,
In case you're convulsing with pedantry and feel the need to correct me (with or without ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος), I do know the word I have mistyped is "convolutions".
RayB's gone very quiet.
Anon 4:51 AM/11:39 AM (3:28 AM?),
Apparently, you're yet unaware of the word you both misapplied and misused: slandering.
"Slander" is used for the spoken word; "libel" for the written. Perhaps you can show me and the rest of the readers how my words to RayB are libelous.
And, perhaps you can show me and the rest of the readers how:
(a) my exegesis of the relevant passages is incorrect
and/or
(b) you might exegete/interpret 1Cor 13:8-12 to prove cessationism.
For convenience, I'll repost the section of the comment in which I exegeted the relevant passage:
This isn’t necessarily a debate over the Greek. It’s mainly on interpretation. Though I’d begun as a cessationist, for me, doing an intellectually honest look at the Scriptures, I’ve come away a (cautious) continuationist. Some cessationists use the “perfect” (“completion”—the same verb is used by Jesus as His final words on the Cross) in 1Cor 13:10 to bolster/hinge their interpretation, claiming this was either the finalizing of the Biblical canon or the end of the Apostolic era. But I find such interpretations dubious (eisegesis instead of exegesis), as these are nowhere in the context. We must ask what/who will we (or, did we) ‘see face to face’ or ‘know fully’ (v 12)? This can only refer to the eschaton—the end of all things: thus, continuationism is in force until the eschaton.
Craig states (in part) @ 12:01 PM"
"Slander" is used for the spoken word; "libel" for the written. Perhaps you can show me and the rest of the readers how my words to RayB are libelous.
Craig also states (in part) @ 10:50 PM (to RayB):
" ... you COWARDLY change your mind ..."
I guess it would be open to debate as to whether or not calling a person a "COWARD" for simply changing one's "mind" is slanderous or not. Craig somehow neglected to state that I "changed my mind" for the purpose that I stated, which is, that such a debate is not "profitable" and "serves no purpose."
Stay tuned, I'll have more to say as to why this isn't a profitable subject to debate and why, based upon past personal experience, it is not profitable to debate with Craig. LOL !
"Though I’d begun as a cessationist, for me, doing an intellectually honest look at the Scriptures, I’ve come away a (cautious) continuationist."
I formed the very same opinion on this subject.
As an aside...
...I think this topic will only digress between two brothers who have something better to focus on right this minute than some differences here and there. God will bring us all up to speed one day shortly.
Jesus took our place on the cross>>>>>>was buried>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rose again^^^^^^^^^^^^^^and reigns forevermore!
What a Savior of sinners is our Lord Jesus Christ!!!
May He be truly praised and adoringly worshipped with humble hearts today and always. Amen.
Oh dear, Craig,
How anally retentive can you get? I am not writing a legal document here. In common parlance, regardless of whether it is written down or not, it is fine to use the word slander (even if strictly speaking it should be used only for the spoken word). No doubt you're one of those who'd be quick to play semantics between "stated" and "said" too.
You really are a pathetic little man with a bloated ego, aren't you.
Craig
FYI I am not the very charming 4:51 AM/11:39 AM poster.
3:28 AM
With great respect, 12:33 PM,
Craig is about as humble as a crocodile towards a drinking antelope. He puts on the natural man (the old man) daily and creeps like a cowardly wolf past the rams so as to set upon the lamb sleeping in the meadows of innocence.
Who cares, 12:37 PM.
You should start caring that you are filled with venom.
Craig said to RayB (in part) @ 7:24 AM:
RayB,
"This isn’t some “DEBATE” on continuationism. THIS A QUEST TO FIND OUT WHAT THE Scriptures TEACH ON THE SUBJECT." (Block lettering used for emphasis).
NOTE: For Craig, this was not "QUEST" at all, because, in his own words, he had ALREADY ARRIVED AT HIS OWN CONCLUSION regarding this issue:
Craig states (in part) @ 12:01 PM:
"Though I’d begun as a cessationist, for me, doing an intellectually honest look at the Scriptures, I’ve come away a (cautious) continuationist."
* "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." 1 Corinthians 13:10
RayB,
If you cannot see the difference between using the adverb “cowardly” in a specific instance over against calling someone “coward” in a general, categorical sense, then I don’t know what more I can say. With this particular subject my opinion is that you have consistently acted cowardly, in that you initially stated you didn’t want to enter the debate yet you de facto DID when you put forth your related anecdotal evidence and, when challenged, you subsequently agreed to exegete the relevant passage only to abruptly reverse course, changing your mind.
Methinks you have no Scriptural leg to stand on, and this is the reason you backed down. You are allowing your feelings and your subjective anecdotal evidence to determine your beliefs on this subject. That’s NOT how a true sola Scriptura Christian views ANY subject. Let’s test your/our beliefs against the Scriptures, shall we?
This isn’t some inconsequential, “unprofitable” discussion. If the Scriptures prove that tongues, prophecies, and special knowledge have indeed already ceased, then we would be able to categorically reject any instance of these. On the other hand, if the Scriptures indicate that these three will not cease until sometime in the future, then we must test any instance against the Scriptures.
----
Anon 12:37 PM (and etc.),
It’s not merely that you used the wrong word, you claim libel (“slander”) in an instance in which there is no offense given (see my response to RayB just above). Asserting someone is acting cowardly is worlds away from asserting someone is a coward categorically.
And I must note the irony in that you write this as you hide behind the cloak of anonymity and snipe others…
Perhaps you can show us all how the Scriptures prove cessationism? I double dog dare you to show us.
RayB 1:38 PM,
Then show us all how I'm wrong.
Also, note that I provided my stance on this (in a response to "J") BEFORE you began your 'I'm not going to enter this debate, but let me provide some of my anecdotal evidence, thereby actually entering the debate while pretending I'm not'.
RayB stated to Craig (in part) @ 10:09 AM:
"As I already stated, this is NOT a profitable discussion, so I really don't understand what you are attempting to accomplish."
"By the way, I'd really like to see the source of your proof regarding the miracle of "tongues" that you cited, in which, a large number of people "came forward." As far as the altar call that you described, can you cite any Scripture passage where such an event ever took place? Rather, if you carefully read the Sower and the Seeds as described in Mark Chapter 4, you will see that many that received the Word, did so on a very temporal basis, which indicates that "decisional regeneration" is not a Biblical concept."
"Altar calls were NEVER used throughout recorded church history, until the revivalist Charles Finney used a variation of it in the 19th. Century (the "mourners bench"), and then D. L. Moody made it somewhat popular. Charles Spurgeon was very much against its use. Of course, Billy Graham really ramped it up to the point that people began to believe that "answering an altar call = salvation." I always felt it was a very similar variation to the Catholic idea of "coming to the altar and receiving Christ via the wafer."
"Again, your source that proves that the "tongues" miracle actually happened, please?"
NOTE: Craig still has not provided PROOF that the miracle of "tongues" that he cited is "true." He also has not provided the source. I'm sure it is forthcoming, because Craig would never want to post anything such as this "miracle" without the proof, along with the original source. That should be very easy for you Craig. What's holding you back?
RayB,
You wrote (snip): …if you carefully read the Sower and the Seeds as described in Mark Chapter 4, you will see that many that received the Word, did so on a very temporal basis, which indicates that "decisional regeneration" is not a Biblical concept.
Hmmm. Acts 2:41 (KJV): Then they that gladly received his [Peter’s] word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Sounds like “decisional regeneration” to me.
As regards the incidence of tongues-speaking I mentioned, while I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the event from this source, you well know I cannot provide “proof”. There’s no video. But this is not much different than the anecdotal evidence you provided. This is why it will be pointless for you or me to marshal this or that “evidence”.
The proof is in the Scriptures. Show me cessationism via the Scriptures and/or show me how my exegesis/interpretation of continuationism is incorrect.
I double dog dare ya.
Allow me to provide a reason for why I choose not to enter into a debate with Craig:
My initial "experience" with Craig had to do with a discussion I was having on this blog with a person regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. I believe this person was a member of the Armstrong cult, which of course, denies the Trinity doctrine. We were going back and forth, and I kept posting Scriptures that clearly declared the Trinity to be true.
Then I posted this verse: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." - 1 John 5:7
Out of nowhere, "Craig" entered the debate and offered his contribution by stating (paraphrase, but accurate) "that verse does not belong in the Bible. All manuscript scholars are in agreement that the verse you cite is incorrect."
The discussion on the Trinity ended abruptly. Instead of Craig entering the discussion in defense of the truth of the Trinity doctrine, Craig, in effect, ended up siding with the cult member by casting doubt on the authenticity of the Trinity verse!
In subsequent discussions with Craig, I learned that he was a devotee and steadfast defender of Westcott & Hort, the two Bible INTERPRETERS that are responsible for the errors that are found in the modern manuscripts, which are ALL based upon Westcott & Hort's *work. Westcott and Hort were both heretics and they were influenced by their heresies while providing, not TRANSLATION material, but INTERPRETATIONS as to what they WANTED their Bible "manuscript" to teach.
As to the verse (1 John 5:7) in question, read how the modern translations, based on Westcott & Hort, read:
"For there are three that testify:" (what "three" ?) This is how the "verse" reads in the following "versions:"
- NIV, EIV, NASB, Amplified Bible, Berean Study Bible, Berean Literal Bible, New Living Bible (slight variation), Good News Translation, God's WORD Translation, NET Bible, International Standard Version, World English Translation, Holmann Christian Standard, etc., etc. The list goes on and on and on.
Now for the truth, minus the INTERPRETATION by Westcott & Hort:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
- King James Version (Authorized Version), also, with very slight variations, the Tyndale Bible 1526, Coverdale Bible 1535, Bishop's Bible 1568, Geneva Bible 1587 (and more)
AND ...
"And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one." Douay_Rheims Bible - Catholic Bible
* Westcott & Hort's "work" resulted in their creation of the New Testament in the Original Greek is a Greek-language version of the New Testament published in 1881. Virtually ALL of the modern translations are based upon the heretical work of Westcott & Hort.
Craig @ 1:44PM
WTF man?
Please pay closer attention to details:
You specifically addressed ME right after I just made it abundantly clear that I was NOT the 4:51 AM/11:39 AM poster, you know, the one who actually used the term 'slander' which you are taking issue with?
Kindly get your facts straight before you comment.
^^^Diversionary tactic^^^
Can't prove your cessationist stance from the Scriptures, can you, RayB?
Craig states:
"As regards the incidence of tongues-speaking I mentioned, while I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the event from this source, you well know I cannot provide “proof”."
So WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE ... the one in which you "have no reason to doubt the veracity of the event from this source ..."
It should be easy Craig, WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE so we can all read the account and judge for ourselves???
Anon 2:40 PM,
Your post came in @ the same time as the other anon.
Can you show me exactly WHERE the practice of Tongues is being done, following the Biblical mandates?
Do you believe in faith healers, Craig?
Any "proof" that these people are raising the dead and giving sight to the blind, Craig?
Going to work in my yard ... will be back later.
I fully expect to see Craig posting his answers to my questions above. (wink, wink)
A Spurious Reference to the Trinity Was Added in 1 John
Some Bible translators of past centuries were so zealous to find support for their belief in the Trinity in the Scriptures that they literally added it. A case in point is 1 John 5:7-8.
It reads in the King James Version, also known as the Authorized Version: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The words in italics are simply not a part of the generally accepted New Testament manuscripts. Regrettably, in this particular passage some other versions read essentially the same.
Most Bible commentaries that mention this addition tell us that it is a spurious comment added to the biblical text. Consider the words of The New Bible Commentary: Revised: "Notice that AV [the Authorized Version] includes additional material at this point. But the words are clearly a gloss [an added note] and are rightly excluded by RSV [the Revised Standard Version] even from its margins" (1970, p. 1269).
In the New Revised Standard Version, 1 John 5:7-8 correctly and more concisely reads, "There are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree." John personifies the three elements here as providing testimony, just as Solomon personified wisdom in the book of Proverbs.
Many other more recent Bible versions likewise recognize the spurious added text and omit it, including the New International Version, American Standard Version and New American Standard Bible, English Standard Version, New English Bible and Revised English Bible, New American Bible, Jerusalem Bible and New Jerusalem Bible, Good News Bible, New Living Translation, Holman Christian Standard Bible, Bible in Basic English and the Twentieth Century New Testament.
"The textual evidence is against 1 John 5:7," explains Dr. Neil Lightfoot, a New Testament professor. "Of all the Greek manuscripts, only two contain it. These two manuscripts are of very late dates, one from the fourteenth or fifteenth century and the other from the sixteenth century. Two other manuscripts have this verse written in the margin. All four manuscripts show that this verse was apparently translated from a late form of the Latin Vulgate" (How We Got the Bible, 2003, pp. 100-101).
The Expositor's Bible Commentary also dismisses the King James and New King James Versions' additions in 1 John 5:7-8 as "obviously a late gloss with no merit" (Glenn Barker, Vol. 12, 1981, p. 353).
Peake's Commentary on the Bible is very incisive in its comments as well: "The famous interpolation after 'three witnesses' is not printed in RSV and rightly [so] . . . No respectable Greek [manuscript] contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the Vulgate [the 5th-century Latin version, which became the common medieval translation] and finally NT [New Testament] of Erasmus [who produced newly collated Greek texts and a new Latin version in the 16th century]" (p. 1038).
The Big Book of Bible Difficulties tells us: "This verse has virtually no support among the early Greek manuscripts . . . Its appearance in late Greek manuscripts is based on the fact that Erasmus was placed under ecclesiastical pressure to include it in his Greek NT of 1522, having omitted it in his two earlier editions of 1516 and 1519 because he could not find any Greek manuscripts which contained it" (Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, 2008, pp. 540-541).
Theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson, in their book Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith, explain the unwarranted addition to the text this way: "It was added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect . . . It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament" (1980, p. 171).
Still, even the added wording does not by itself proclaim the Trinity doctrine. The addition, illegitimate though it is, merely presents Father, Word and Holy Spirit as witnesses. This says nothing about the personhood of all three since verse 7 shows inanimate water and blood serving as such.
Again, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until after the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, several centuries after the last books of the New Testament were complete.
It is actually not a biblical concept.
How Paul Surprisingly Denied the Trinity Doctrine
Most professing Christians today hold the Trinity doctrine to be true. However, do you know that Paul didn’t even mention the Trinity doctrine? In fact, he has denied it through his writings. Want to know how? Read on!
The Apostle Paul is known to be the apostle to the gentiles. He is even known to be the recorder of many theological doctrines for the early church. Yet, throughout his writings, you will never find any mention of the Trinity.
Could the Apostle Paul has been blinded to this new truth? Or is the Trinity simply a teaching not rooted in the Bible?
You need to learn the truth.
What is the Trinity?
The Trinity is among the most popular and widely accepted doctrines of mainstream Christianity. For many, you will never be considered as a Christian without accepting the Trinity doctrine. It has by some tried to be served to be a LITMUS PAPER of Christianity.
As popular as this doctrine is, the word “Trinity” is never mentioned in the Bible. The belief that God is made up of three persons coexisting in one substance or being is nowhere found in the Holy Scripture – from Genesis to Revelation.
If Trinity is not found in the Bible, where did it originate? This can be a long topic and I highly recommend you read this article to know its history.
However, just to summarize, the doctrine of Trinity was formed during the Council of Nicaea in the year 325. It was presided by Constantine – a pagan emperor who had little knowledge about Christianity.
3 Ways How Paul Denied the Trinity
If there is one person in the Bible who will teach about Trinity, it should have been Paul. However, this never happened as evidenced by his writings. Here are some of the evidence of Paul not acknowledging the existence of the Triune God.
1. SALUTATIONS IN HIS EPISTLES – throughout the letters of Paul, you will not find a single mention of the Holy Spirit as a separate being. In fact, he only mentioned two, God the Father and Yahshua (Jesus Christ). Here are some examples:
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 1:7).
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ (I Corinthians 1:3).
Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ (II Corinthians 1:2).
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:3).
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:2).
Please read Philippians 1:2; Colossians 1:2; I Thessalonians 1:1; II Thessalonians 1:2; I Timothy 1:2; II Timothy 1:2; Titus 1:4; and Philemon 1:3.
You can see in these salutations that the Holy Spirit is LEFT OUT!
If Paul recognized that the Holy Spirit is another divine being, then he should have included it in his salutations.
Failure in doing so would've meant a BIG insult to the Holy Spirit!
2. THE AUDIENCE OF PAUL – the majority of the recipients of Paul’s letters are gentiles. These gentiles have polytheistic background who had formerly worshipped different gods. Sending them letters is a golden opportunity for Paul to teach the Trinity and introduce new converts to this doctrine. However, we don’t find any of those things.
3. I CORINTHIANS 8:6 – This verse tells us, “But to us, there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” Come to think about it, if Paul really believes in the Trinity, why would he not mention it here? Instead, we consistently see only two beings, God the Father and Jesus Christ.
The ONLY mention of the Holy Spirit along with God the Father and Jesus Christ is II Corinthians 13:14. It says, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”
This does NOT support the Trinity doctrine. This only means that Christians are bonded and unified by God’s Spirit. We have FELLOWSHIP with God and Jesus through the Holy Spirit, which is their power (Luke 1:35).
Final Words
There is no doubt that Paul and other writers of the Bible did not recognize the Trinity Doctrine. In fact, they have consistently taught about God the Father and Jesus Christ.
This is one of the greatest truths in the Bible and also the most IGNORED!
If we are to worship God, it must be done in truth and spirit (John 4:24).
Therefore, we must ALWAYS examine the things we believe in and have GOD'S (not a man's) word as our ultimate authority!
It reads in the King James Version, also known as the Authorized Version: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." The words in italics are simply not a part of the generally accepted New Testament manuscripts. Regrettably, in this particular passage some other versions read essentially the same.
Most Bible commentaries that mention this addition tell us that it is a spurious comment added to the biblical text.
The Surprising Origins of the Trinity Doctrine
Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.
Few understand how the Trinity doctrine came to be accepted - several centuries after the Bible was completed! Yet its roots go back much farther in history.
The Roman emperor Constantine the Great, while himself not really a Christian, convened and played a major role in the Council of Nicaea, which laid the groundwork for acceptance of the Trinity doctrine.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).
Most people assume that everything that bears the label "Christian" must have originated with Jesus Christ and His early followers. But this is definitely not the case. All we have to do is look at the words of Jesus Christ and His apostles to see that this is clearly not true.
The historical record shows that, just as Jesus and the New Testament writers foretold, various heretical ideas and teachers rose up from within the early Church and infiltrated it from without. Christ Himself warned His followers: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name . . . and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5).
You can read many similar warnings in other passages (such as Matthew 24:11; Acts 20:29-30; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; 2 Peter 2:1-2; 1 John 2:18-26; 1 John 4:1-3).
Barely two decades after Christ's death and resurrection, the apostle Paul wrote that many believers were already "turning away . . . to a different gospel" (Galatians 1:6). He wrote that he was forced to contend with "false apostles, deceitful workers" who were fraudulently "transforming themselves into apostles of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:13). One of the major problems he had to deal with was "false brethren" (2 Corinthians 11:26).
By late in the first century, as we see from 3 John 9-10, conditions had grown so dire that false ministers openly refused to receive representatives of the apostle John and were excommunicating true Christians from the Church!
Of this troubling period Edward Gibbon, the famed historian, wrote in his classic work The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire of a "dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church" (1821, Vol. 2, p. 111).
It wasn't long before true servants of God became a marginalized and scattered minority among those calling themselves Christian. A very different religion, now compromised with many concepts and practices rooted in ancient paganism (such mixing of religious beliefs being known as syncretism, common in the Roman Empire at the time), took hold and transformed the faith founded by Jesus Christ.
Historian Jesse Hurlbut says of this time of transformation: "We name the last generation of the first century, from 68 to 100 A.D., 'The Age of Shadows,' partly because the gloom of persecution was over the church, but more especially because of all the periods in the [church's] history, it is the one about which we know the least. We have no longer the clear light of the Book of Acts to guide us; and no author of that age has filled the blank in the history . . .
"For fifty years after St. Paul's life a curtain hangs over the church, through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it rises, about 120 A.D. with the writings of the earliest church fathers, we find a church in many aspects very different from that in the days of St. Peter and St. Paul" (The Story of the Christian Church, 1970, p. 33).
This "very different" church would grow in power and influence, and within a few short centuries would come to dominate even the mighty Roman Empire!
By the second century, faithful members of the Church, Christ's "little flock" (Luke 12:32), had largely been scattered by waves of deadly persecution. They held firmly to the biblical truth about Jesus Christ and God the Father, though they were persecuted by the Roman authorities as well as those who professed Christianity but were in reality teaching "another Jesus" and a "different gospel" (2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9).
Different ideas about Christ's divinity lead to conflict
This was the setting in which the doctrine of the Trinity emerged. In those early decades after Jesus Christ's ministry, death and resurrection, and spanning the next few centuries, various ideas sprang up as to His exact nature. Was He man? Was He God? Was He God appearing as a man? Was He an illusion? Was He a mere man who became God? Was He created by God the Father, or did He exist eternally with the Father?
All of these ideas had their proponents. The unity of belief of the original Church was lost as new beliefs, many borrowed or adapted from pagan religions, replaced the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
Let us be clear that when it comes to the intellectual and theological debates in those early centuries that led to the formulation of the Trinity, the true Church was largely absent from the scene, having been driven underground.
For this reason, in that stormy period we often see debates not between truth and error, but between one error and a different error—a fact seldom recognized by many modern scholars yet critical for our understanding.
A classic example of this was the dispute over the nature of Christ that led the Roman emperor Constantine the Great to convene the Council of Nicaea (in modern-day western Turkey) in A.D. 325.
Constantine, although held by many to be the first "Christian" Roman Emperor, was actually a sun-worshiper who was only baptized on his deathbed. During his reign he had his eldest son and his wife murdered. He was also vehemently anti-Semitic, referring in one of his edicts to "the detestable Jewish crowd" and "the customs of these most wicked men"—customs that were in fact rooted in the Bible and practiced by Jesus and the apostles.
As emperor in a period of great tumult within the Roman Empire, Constantine was challenged with keeping the empire unified. He recognized the value of religion in uniting his empire. This was, in fact, one of his primary motivations in accepting and sanctioning the "Christian" religion (which, by this time, had drifted far from the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles and was Christian in name only).
But now Constantine faced a new challenge. Religion researcher Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God that "one of the first problems that had to be solved was the doctrine of God . . . a new danger arose from within which split Christians into bitterly warring camps" (1993, p. 106).
Debate over the nature of God at the Council of Nicaea
Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea in the year 325 as much for political reasons—for unity in the empire—as religious ones. The primary issue at that time came to be known as the Arian controversy.
"In the hope of securing for his throne the support of the growing body of Christians he had shown them considerable favor and it was to his interest to have the church vigorous and united. The Arian controversy was threatening its unity and menacing its strength. He therefore undertook to put an end to the trouble. It was suggested to him, perhaps by the Spanish bishop Hosius, who was influential at court, that if a synod were to meet representing the whole church both east and west, it might be possible to restore harmony.
"Constantine himself of course neither knew nor cared anything about the matter in dispute but he was eager to bring the controversy to a close, and Hosius' advice appealed to him as sound" (Arthur Cushman McGiffert, A History of Christian Thought, 1954, Vol. 1, p. 258).
Arius, a priest from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Christ, because He was the Son of God, must have had a beginning and therefore was a special creation of God. Further, if Jesus was the Son, the Father of necessity must be older.
Opposing the teachings of Arius was Athanasius, a deacon also from Alexandria. His view was an early form of Trinitarianism wherein the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were one but at the same time distinct from each other.
The decision as to which view the church council would accept was to a large extent arbitrary. Karen Armstrong explains in A History of God: "When the bishops gathered at Nicaea on May 20, 325, to resolve the crisis, very few would have shared Athanasius's view of Christ. Most held a position midway between Athanasius and Arius" (p. 110).
As emperor, Constantine was in the unusual position of deciding church doctrine even though he was not really a Christian. (The following year is when he had both his wife and son murdered, as previously mentioned).
Historian Henry Chadwick attests, "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun" (The Early Church, 1993, p. 122). As to the emperor's embrace of Christianity, Chadwick admits, "His conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear" (p. 125).
Chadwick does say that Constantine's deathbed baptism itself "implies no doubt about his Christian belief," it being common for rulers to put off baptism to avoid accountability for things like torture and executing criminals (p. 127). But this justification doesn't really help the case for the emperor's conversion being genuine.
Norbert Brox, a professor of church history, confirms that Constantine was never actually a converted Christian: "Constantine did not experience any conversion; there are no signs of a change of faith in him. He never said of himself that he had turned to another god . . . At the time when he turned to Christianity, for him this was Sol Invictus (the victorious sun god)" (A Concise History of the Early Church, 1996, p. 48).
When it came to the Nicene Council, The Encyclopaedia Britannica states: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination" (1971 edition, Vol. 6, "Constantine," p. 386).
With the emperor's approval, the Council rejected the minority view of Arius and, having nothing definitive with which to replace it, approved the view of Athanasius—also a minority view. The church was left in the odd position of officially supporting, from that point forward, the decision made at Nicaea to endorse a belief held by only a minority of those attending.
The groundwork for official acceptance of the Trinity was now laid—but it took more than three centuries after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for this unbiblical teaching to emerge!
Nicene decision didn't end the debate
The Council of Nicaea did not end the controversy. Karen Armstrong explains: "Athanasius managed to impose his theology on the delegates . . . with the emperor breathing down their necks . . .
"The show of agreement pleased Constantine, who had no understanding of the theological issues, but in fact there was no unanimity at Nicaea. After the council, the bishops went on teaching as they had before, and the Arian crisis continued for another sixty years. Arius and his followers fought back and managed to regain imperial favor. Athanasius was exiled no fewer than five times. It was very difficult to make his creed stick" (pp. 110-111).
The ongoing disagreements were at times violent and bloody. Of the aftermath of the Council of Nicaea, noted historian Will Durant writes, "Probably more Christians were slaughtered by Christians in these two years (342-3) than by all the persecutions of Christians by pagans in the history of Rome" (The Story of Civilization, Vol. 4: The Age of Faith, 1950, p. 8). Atrociously, while claiming to be Christian many believers fought and slaughtered one another over their differing views of God!
Of the following decades, Professor Harold Brown, cited earlier, writes: "During the middle decades of this century, from 340 to 380, the history of doctrine looks more like the history of court and church intrigues and social unrest . . . The central doctrines hammered out in this period often appear to have been put through by intrigue or mob violence rather than by the common consent of Christendom led by the Holy Spirit" (p. 119).
Debate shifts to the nature of the Holy Spirit
Disagreements soon centered around another issue, the nature of the Holy Spirit. In that regard, the statement issued at the Council of Nicaea said simply, "We believe in the Holy Spirit." This "seemed to have been added to Athanasius's creed almost as an afterthought," writes Karen Armstrong. "People were confused about the Holy Spirit. Was it simply a synonym for God or was it something more?" (p. 115).
Professor Ryrie, also cited earlier,writes, "In the second half of the fourth century, three theologians from the province of Cappadocia in eastern Asia Minor [today central Turkey] gave definitive shape to the doctrine of the Trinity" (p. 65). They proposed an idea that was a step beyond Athanasius' view—that God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit were coequal and together in one being, yet also distinct from one another.
These men—Basil, bishop of Caesarea, his brother Gregory, bishop of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus—were all "trained in Greek philosophy" (Armstrong, p. 113), which no doubt affected their outlook and beliefs.
In their view, as Karen Armstrong explains, "the Trinity only made sense as a mystical or spiritual experience . . . It was not a logical or intellectual formulation but an imaginative paradigm that confounded reason. Gregory of Nazianzus made this clear when he explained that contemplation of the Three in One induced a profound and overwhelming emotion that confounded thought and intellectual clarity.
"'No sooner do I conceive of the One than I am illumined by the splendor of the Three; no sooner do I distinguish Three than I am carried back into the One. When I think of any of the Three, I think of him as the whole, and my eyes are filled, and the greater part of what I am thinking escapes me'" (p. 117). Little wonder that, as Armstrong concludes, "For many Western Christians . . . the Trinity is simply baffling" (ibid.).
Ongoing disputes lead to the Council of Constantinople
In the year 381, 44 years after Constantine's death, Emperor Theodosius the Great convened the Council of Constantinople (today Istanbul, Turkey) to resolve these disputes. Gregory of Nazianzus, recently appointed as archbishop of Constantinople, presided over the council and urged the adoption of his view of the Holy Spirit.
Historian Charles Freeman states: "Virtually nothing is known of the theological debates of the council of 381, but Gregory was certainly hoping to get some acceptance of his belief that the Spirit was consubstantial with the Father [meaning that the persons are of the same being, as substance in this context denotes individual quality].
"Whether he dealt with the matter clumsily or whether there was simply no chance of consensus, the 'Macedonians,' bishops who refused to accept the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, left the council . . . Typically, Gregory berated the bishops for preferring to have a majority rather than simply accepting 'the Divine Word' of the Trinity on his authority" (A.D. 381: Heretics, Pagans and the Dawn of the Monotheistic State, 2008, p. 96).
Gregory soon became ill and had to withdraw from the council. Who would preside now? "So it was that one Nectarius, an elderly city senator who had been a popular prefect in the city as a result of his patronage of the games, but who was still not a baptized Christian, was selected . . . Nectarius appeared to know no theology, and he had to be initiated into the required faith before being baptized and consecrated" (Freeman, pp. 97-98).
Bizarrely, a man who up to this point wasn't a Christian was appointed to preside over a major church council tasked with determining what it would teach regarding the nature of God!
The Trinity becomes official doctrine
The teaching of the three Cappadocian theologians "made it possible for the Council of Constantinople (381) to affirm the divinity of the Holy Spirit, which up to that point had nowhere been clearly stated, not even in Scripture" (The HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, "God," p. 568).
The council adopted a statement that translates into English as, in part: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages . . . And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets . . ." The statement also affirmed belief "in one holy, catholic [meaning in this context universal, whole or complete] and apostolic Church . . ."
With this declaration in 381, which would become known as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Trinity as generally understood today became the official belief and teaching concerning the nature of God.
Theology professor Richard Hanson observes that a result of the council's decision "was to reduce the meanings of the word 'God' from a very large selection of alternatives to one only," such that "when Western man today says 'God' he means the one, sole exclusive [Trinitarian] God and nothing else" (Studies in Christian Antiquity, 1985,pp. 243-244).
Thus, Emperor Theodosius—who himself had been baptized only a year before convening the council—was, like Constantine nearly six decades earlier, instrumental in establishing major church doctrine. As historian Charles Freeman notes: "It is important to remember that Theodosius had no theological background of his own and that he put in place as dogma a formula containing intractable philosophical problems of which he would have been unaware. In effect, the emperor's laws had silenced the debate when it was still unresolved" (p. 103).
Other beliefs about the nature of God banned
Now that a decision had been reached, Theodosius would tolerate no dissenting views. He issued his own edict that read: "We now order that all churches are to be handed over to the bishops who profess Father, Son and Holy Spirit of a single majesty, of the same glory, of one splendor, who establish no difference by sacrilegious separation, but (who affirm) the order of the Trinity by recognizing the Persons and uniting the Godhead" (quoted by Richard Rubenstein, When Jesus Became God, 1999, p. 223).
Another edict from Theodosius went further in demanding adherence to the new teaching: "Let us believe the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgement, they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give their conventicles [assemblies] the name of churches.
"They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation, and the second the punishment which our authority, in accordance with the will of Heaven, shall decide to inflict" (reproduced in Documents of the Christian Church, Henry Bettenson, editor, 1967, p. 22).
Thus we see that a teaching that was foreign to Jesus Christ, never taught by the apostles and unknown to the other biblical writers, was locked into place and the true biblical revelation about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit was locked out. Any who disagreed were, in accordance with the edicts of the emperor and church authorities, branded heretics and dealt with accordingly.
Trinity doctrine decided by trial and error
This unusual chain of events is why theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson would summarize the story in their book Reasonable Belief: A Survey of the Christian Faith by noting that the adoption of the Trinity doctrine came as a result of "a process of theological exploration which lasted at least three hundred years . . . In fact it was a process of trial and error (almost of hit and miss), in which the error was by no means all confined to the unorthodox . . . It would be foolish to represent the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as having been achieved by any other way" (1980, p. 172).
They then conclude: "This was a long, confused, process whereby different schools of thought in the Church worked out for themselves, and then tried to impose on others, their answer to the question, 'How divine is Jesus Christ?' . . . If ever there was a controversy decided by the method of trial and error, it was this one" (p. 175).
Anglican churchman and Oxford University lecturer K.E. Kirk revealingly writes of the adoption of the doctrine of the Trinity: "The theological and philosophical vindication of the divinity of the Spirit begins in the fourth century; we naturally turn to the writers of that period to discover what grounds they have for their belief. To our surprise, we are forced to admit that they have none . . .
"This failure of Christian theology . . . to produce logical justification of the cardinal point in its trinitarian doctrine is of the greatest possible significance. We are forced, even before turning to the question of the vindication of the doctrine by experience, to ask ourselves whether theology or philosophy has ever produced any reasons why its belief should be Trinitarian" ("The Evolution of the Doctrine of the Trinity," published in Essays on the Trinity and the Incarnation, A.E.J. Rawlinson, editor, 1928, pp. 221-222).
Why believe a teaching that isn't biblical?
This, in brief, is the amazing story of how the doctrine of the Trinity came to be introduced—and how those who refused to accept it came to be branded as heretics or unbelievers.
But should we really base our view of God on a doctrine that isn't spelled out in the Bible, that wasn't formalized until three centuries after the time of Jesus Christ and the apostles, that was debated and argued for decades (not to mention for centuries since), that was imposed by religious councils presided over by novices or nonbelievers and that was "decided by the method of trial and error"?
Of course not.
We should instead look to the Word of GOD—not to ideas of MEN—to see how our Creator reveals Himself!
RayB,
So, apparently you cannot Scripturally back up your cessationist stance.
As I’ve already stated, any evidence provided by me or you will not settle the matter. The answer lies in the Scriptures. What position is correct?
Your friend Calvin (Calvin’s Commentaries (Complete), trans. John King [Edinburgh: Calvin Translation Society, 1847]) weighs in:
1Cor 13:9: We know in part. This passage is misinterpreted by most persons, as if it meant that our knowledge, and in like manner our prophecy, is not yet perfect, but that we are daily making progress in them. Paul’s meaning, however, is—that it is owing to our imperfection that we at present have knowledge and prophecy. Hence the phrase in part means — “Because we are not yet perfect.” Knowledge and prophecy, therefore, have place among us so long as that imperfection cleaves to us, to which they are helps….
10: …But when will that perfection come? It begins, indeed, at death, for then we put off, along with the body, many infirmities; but it will not be completely manifested until the day of judgment, as we shall hear presently. Hence we infer, that the whole of this discussion is ignorantly applied to the time that is intermediate.
12: We now see through a glass …In the first place, there can be no doubt that it is the ministry of the word, and the means that are required for the exercise of it, that he compares to a looking-glass. For God, who is otherwise invisible, has appointed these means for discovering himself to us. At the same time, this may also be viewed as extending to the entire structure of the world, in which the glory of God shines forth to our view, in accordance with what is stated in Romans 1:16; and 2 Corinthians 3:18. In Romans 1:20 the Apostle speaks of the creatures as “mirrors”, in which God’s invisible majesty is to be seen; but as he treats here particularly of spiritual gifts, which are subservient to the ministry of the Church, and are its accompaniments, we shall not wander away from our present subject.
The ministry of the word, I say, is like a looking-glass. For the angels have no need of preaching, or other inferior helps, nor of sacraments, for they enjoy a vision of God of another kind; and God does not give them a view of his face merely in a mirror, but openly manifests himself as present with them. We, who have not as yet reached that great height, behold the image of God as it is presented before us in the word, in the sacraments, and, in fine, in the whole of the service of the Church. This vision Paul here speaks of as partaking of obscurity—not as though it were doubtful or delusive, but because it is not so distinct as that which will be at last afforded on the final day. He teaches the same thing in other words, in the second Epistle — (2 Corinthians 5:7) — that,
so long as we dwell in the body we are absent from the Lord;
for we walk by faith, not by sight.
[cont]
[cont]
Our faith, therefore, at present beholds God as absent. How so? Because it sees not his face, but rests satisfied with the image in the “mirror”; but when we shall have left the world, and gone to him, it will behold him as near and before its eyes.
Hence we must understand it in this manner — that the knowledge of God, which we now have from his word, is indeed certain and true, and has nothing in it that is confused, or perplexed, or dark, but is spoken of as comparatively obscure, because it comes far short of that clear manifestation to which we look forward; for then “we shall see face to face”. Thus this passage is not at all at variance with other passages, which speak of the clearness, at one time, of the law, at another time, of the entire Scripture, but more especially of the gospel. For we have in the word (in so far as is expedient for us) a naked and open revelation of God, and it has nothing intricate in it, to hold us in suspense, as wicked persons imagine; 703 but how small a proportion does this bear to that vision, which we have in our eye! Hence it is only in a comparative sense, that it is termed obscure.
The adverb “then” denotes the last day, rather than the time that is immediately subsequent to death. At the same time, although full vision will be deferred until the day of Christ, a nearer view of God will begin to be enjoyed immediately after death, when our souls, set free from the body, will have no more need of the outward ministry, or other inferior helps. Paul, however, as I noticed a little ago, does not enter into any close discussion as to the state of the dead, because the knowledge of that is not particularly serviceable to piety.
[cont]
Now I know in part. That is, the measure of our present knowledge is imperfect, as John says in his Epistle, (1 John 3:1,2,) that
we know, indeed, that we are the sons of God, but that it doth not yet appear, until we shall see God as he is.
Then we shall see God — not in his image, but in himself, so that there will be, in a manner, a mutual view.
Craig,
So let me get this straight ...
You state that you have "no reason to doubt the veracity of the event from this source," of a miracle in which "tongues-speaking" was used to bring many to "come forward." Yet, you steadfastly refuse to provide the source of this account. Why is that, Craig?
Why don't you cite your source material that provided the information of this event?
I asked you the following: "Can you show me exactly WHERE the practice of Tongues is being done, following the Biblical mandate?"
Still waiting ... NO ANSWER.
I also asked you if you believe in faith healers? NO ANSWER.
I asked you for "proof" that these faith healers are raising the dead and giving sight to the blind, as was done in the Apostolic Age. NO ANSWER.
For the record, these were my posts that apparently ruffled Craig's feathers:
RayB said @ 1:14 PM:
I really don't want to enter into this Cessationism controversy, but would like to make the following observations:
First, the Apostolic age was unique. People were instantly healed, the blind were given their site, and the dead were raised back to life. Tongues were KNOWN LANGUAGES that were spoken by people that were not of that dialect, among various groups of people, which were understood by them to be a miracle. WHERE is any of that taking place today?
The RCC promotes itself along the same lines of Cessationism. Catholicism promotes itself as the true Apostolic Church, beginning with Peter as their first "pope." I often ask Catholics this question: if the Papacy is the continuation of the Apostles, and Peter was the first pope, why is it that succeeding "popes" cannot, and, do not, raise people from the dead as Peter did? Nor do "popes" perform provable miracles, such as giving sight to the blind, healing people of severe impairments and disease, etc.?
I once heard Joni Eareckson Tada give an account regarding her experience with "faith healers." Joni had become a quadriplegic due to a diving accident in 1967. Out of desperation, Joni attended a healing crusade put on by the famous "faith healer" Kathryn Kuhlman. While Kuhlman claimed to "heal" many in attendance of "ailments," such as bad knees, arthritis, hearing loss, etc. those in wheelchairs, like Joni, were left in a hidden holding area and never made it on stage. Why? Because Kuhlman's inability to "heal" those bound in wheelchairs would expose to the "believing" crowd that Kuhlman was an absolute fraud.
RayB said @ 1:25 PM:
More on tongues; the "tongues" that are commonly practiced in charismatic churches today are not done in accordance to the Biblical mandates. Read this:
"If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."
"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." - 1 Corinthians 14:27-28
NOTE: I have personally witnessed "tongues" in a charismatic church. It is utter chaos, with many in the congregation all "speaking" at once, and there is no interpreter.
Also, I've known personally "tongues" speakers. In each and every case, those that I have personally known lived very ungodly lives! Just three for illustration; one was an unrepentant homosexual, another was an admitted serial adulterer, another was a vulgar, blasphemous, lying individual that constantly used God's name in vain, and yet, all of these "spirit filled believers" "spoke in tongues."
RayB,
Did that third example you've given like to deceptively twist things round and put them in Koine Greek so as to sound important? Kinda reminds me of someone here who's mighty mad because his peacock feathers are quickly losing their luster...
RayB,
While you steadfastly refuse to justify your cessationist position from Scripture, you’ve now lapsed into logical fallacies. You can marshal this evidence and that example in an attempt to bolster your position; however, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That is, illustrating this and that example of fake ‘faith healers’ and questionable ‘tongues-speakers’ does not prove there are no examples of yielded vessels through whom the Holy Spirit works healings and tongues-speaking.
But you have erected a number of straw men that you’ve torn down. Bravo!
I’d already provided the source of my account in the 601 – 800 grouping of comments (@ 8:33 AM):
--
I know someone who works in ‘music ministry’. He was on a missions trip to China (years ago). I don’t recall the circumstances, but he was asked to speak in front of an all-Chinese audience. There was an interpreter.
Just after he placed his Bible and prepared notes on the podium, a strange light obscured the podium. He could read neither his Bible nor his notes. Understandably, he grew very anxious. So he spoke extemporaneously, as best he could.
When he was finished, he was astonished to find a large number of his audience come forward. Perplexed, he looked over at his interpreter, who had a surprised look on his face as he said, “You spoke perfect Mandarin Chinese!” He apparently did an altar call in Mandarin, as well.
This guy does not know Chinese. And he never spoke it since.
--
To be more specific, he told me and another Christian friend of mine at a local coffee shop. So—as someone already stated—technically, it’s “hearsay”. And, like I stated earlier today, there’s no “proof”, no video. You can quibble over my use of “altar call” as a paraphrase (I don’t recall Mike’s words exactly, as this was about 10 years ago). I believe him. You don’t have to. As I said, marshaling this or that example from you or me is rather pointless. Where the rubber meets the road is in Scripture. The question is whether continuationism or cessationism is Scriptural.
I’ve presented my case for continuationism. You’ve yet to present a case for your cessationist view.
Craig,
I'm glad that you finally admitted that the "source" for your "tongues-speaking" miracle was actually nothing other than, as you so aptly put it, "hearsay." It's your choice as to whether to believe that story or not. As for me, I'll kindly take a pass on it, due to the fact that the evidence that you are building your case upon is, by your own admission, "hearsay" evidence, which is not admissible in a court of law.
My Scriptural case is this: NOTHING that is observable regarding these "gifts" is being practiced in accordance to Biblical mandates. Again, your case for "continuationaism" is based upon second hand, hearsay evidence.
Over the years, I've spoken with any number of Charismatics. The vast majority of those have stated "speaking in tongues" is a sign that one has been "born again," and "when you are born in the spirit, you speak in tongues," etc. It is common for them to state "If you don't speak in tongues, you don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit," etc. As I cited in a previous post, it is common for entire congregations to "speak in tongues" during a church service, which is completely unbiblical.
Also, Charismatic "preachers" often break out into "tongues" in the middle of a sermon ... all without the Biblical mandate of an interpreter. Not once have I ever seen, or heard of, an INTERPRETATION provided of the "tongues" that were uttered before the congregation.
Furthermore, as I have already stated, the practice of "tongues-speaking" that is practiced in the Charismatic churches is in no way Biblical. They simply do not follow the mandates as clearly laid out in the Scriptures. So, if they are in conflict with what the Word teaches (which was written by the Holy Spirit), what "spirit" is influencing them to "speak in tongues?" It most assuredly is NOT the Holy Spirit !
The above is precisely why I have repeatedly asked you to provide PROOF of any "tongues speaking" that strictly follows Biblical mandates. I don't expect anything forthcoming because I don't believe Biblically mandated "speaking in tongues" exists.
As far as healing, God definitely heals individuals, when and if He so chooses. I never stated anything to the contrary. However, the question is this; does God heal people through these self-appointed, charismatic "faith healers?" You can believe that if you want .... I personally do not.
We can have a reasonable discussion about this, provided you give us concrete examples of who, what and where "speaking in tongues" is following the strict guidelines as laid out in the Scriptures.
Craig,
You have presented nothing but baloney and bluster. In your self-deluded arrogance, your grandiose and blasphemous belief in your own omniscience, you have shown how stubbonly stupid (despite your academic learning and for all your Greek) you truly are.
You your claims swirl as useless dust the hollow winds of hearsay. Or are based on the sleight of hand by Charlatans, such as Heroin Hinn, etc.
Well, you can keep your snake oil and "charms" of the Devil himself to yourself.
RayB doesn't have to prove anything to you, you disingenuous narcissist.
What you are demanding is fallicious at best. It is an argumentum ad ignorantiam, i.e., an appeal to ignorance. You are demanding evidence of absence and, as such, you have been awarded a very large F for fail.
You‘d have done better had you admitted you were wrong this time. You would have retained whatever little credibility you had left here and, who knows, you may have miraculously increased it a little had you done so.
Yet, no, your hubris has undone you and we are all watching you tumble at great speed.
Craig,
You have presented nothing but baloney and bluster. In your self-deluded arrogance, your grandiose and blasphemous belief in your own omniscience, you have shown how stubbonly stupid (despite your academic learning and for all your Greek) you truly are.
Your claims swirl as useless dust in the hollow winds of hearsay. Furthermore, your claims are based on the sleight of hand of the charlatan, such as Heroin Hinn, etc.
Well, you can keep your snake oil and "charms" of the Devil himself to yourself.
RayB doesn't have to prove anything to you, you disingenuous narcissist.
What you are demanding is fallicious at best. It is an argumentum ad ignorantiam, i.e., an appeal to ignorance. You are demanding evidence of absence and, as such, you have been awarded a very large F for fail.
You‘d have done better had you admitted you were wrong this time. You would have retained whatever little credibility you had left here and, who knows, you may have miraculously increased it a little had you done so.
Yet no, your hubris has undone you and we are all watching you tumble at great speed.
Craig,
it's your personal business but you may want to tell your embittered and venomous ex-wife to go elsewhere (like to a psychiatrist's office).
12:46 AM,
You sound like your hoping to be Craig‘s mistress, yet for all his faults, I doubt he sways that way.
Now, you no doubt need a rest on the psychiatrist‘s chair yourself. I guess my having called out Craig‘s narcissistic traits triggered you. Get help quick, you sycophantic psycho.
ROFL.
You seem really triggered there with your foul language, 3:16 AM, I obviously hit a nerve.
Seek out medical care immediately for your sociopathic tendencies.
12:46 AM / 3:16 AM ,
I repeat,
You sound like you're hoping to be Craig‘s mistress, yet for all his faults, I doubt he sways that way.
Now, you no doubt need a rest on the psychiatrist‘s chair yourself. I guess my having called out Craig‘s narcissistic traits triggered you. Get help quick, you sycophantic psycho.
ROFL.
RayB,
In your case the tail is wagging the dog. You have it exactly backwards. I’m not building a case for continuationism from this one instance of Mandarin tongues-speaking; I’m a continuationist because this is what the Bible teaches in 1Cor 13:8-12. (Even your friend Calvin affirms it.) You’ve yet to discuss—let alone exegete—the passage. Instead, you’ve taken the numerous examples of false tongues, healers, etc. and built your theological position around it. Again, exactly backwards.
It’s quite easy to provide a plethora of examples of obvious false charismaticism. But, as I stated, it is a logical fallacy to assume this somehow proves there cannot be any true charismaticism (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).
I’ve not once attempted to support any of the obvious false charismaticism you cite @ 11:51 PM. In fact, on my own blog I’ve written much against this sort of thing. Unfortunately, you have a tendency to lump this with that when it suits your ‘theology’.
I’ll pose this challenge yet again to you—and to anyone else—exegete/interpret 1Cor 13:8-12 to support cessationism. Show us all how I’m wrong on this theological point.
What will RayB do next? Looks like checkmate.
12:46 AM & 3:06 AM sure sounds Satanic. Maybe MCE's Res. Seer? There's something of the M. Tingle about him.
I think it is fitting to read the ENTIRE chapter that Craig is using to bolster his "Continuation" argument. Read it for yourself, and see if there is a conclusion to be drawn that undeniably supports his position:
1 Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT COME, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (Block lettering used for emphasis).
Notice the VAGUE language that is used in the statement "But when that which is perfect come."
Being that it is NOT SPECIFIC, the only "conclusion" to be drawn is via interpretation as to its meaning.
THAT IS PRECISELY what Craig has done.
Furthermore, the EMPHASIS of this ENTIRE chapter is not "miracles," or "gifts."
The predominant theme is CHARITY, or, LOVE, which is exactly the point that I originally made regarding this passage of Scripture.
Craig has ignored all of this and has centered his attention upon HIS interpretation of what HE believes the "perfect" is.
There's more ....
Here's the Koine Greek everyone (in case Craig tries that one).
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/13.htm
In order to bolster his OPINION, Craig even resorts to SELECTIVELY quoting my "friend Calvin," as he sarcastically puts it, in order to bolster his point. What exactly is meant by "when the perfect comes" is certainly vague enough so as not to be able to come to a concrete conclusion as to what exactly the "perfect" is. Yet, Craig jumps to the conclusion that HE knows what EXACTLY it is. Amazing. I confess I don't know, because the Scriptures itself is, in my opinion, specifically silent when it comes to defining what is meant by the "perfect."
What's even more telling is that Craig resorted to cherry picking from Calvin's Commentary regarding Calvin's thoughts on this PARTICULAR passage, while ignoring completely a far more definitive statement regarding "miracles" from his classic work "The Institutes of the Christian Religion."
In reaction to Roman Catholic claims of "miracles" of his day, Calvin maintained this:
"The gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles, which the Lord willed to be brought forth for a time, HAS VANISHED AWAY in order to make the new preaching of the gospel marvelous forever" (Institutes IV, 19, 18). (By miracles is meant any so-called supernatural manifestations such as speaking in tongues, dramatic healings, prophecy, etc.)
Centuries later, the highly respected American Presbyterian theologian, B. B. Warfield , maintained that "miracles ceased with the end of the apostolic age." (See his Counterfeit Miracles, 1918. Reprinted as Miracles: Yesterday and Today , Real and Counterfeit, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Pub!. Co., 1953, 1965.)
I find it interesting that the title of Warfield's book is "Counterfeit Miracles." That is precisely what I believe we are witnessing today, and WHY I have emphasized comparing the practice of these so-called "miracles" with the Biblical mandates. By doing so, you are "testing the spirits," as we are admonished to do:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1
In contrast to this warning from Scripture, Craig asks us to "believe" his admitted "hearsay" spirit that performed the "tongues-speaking" miracle that he wrote about.
I've asked Craig repeatedly to show me where, who and what is being done under the banner of "miracles" that follows precisely the Biblical mandates. So far, he has ignored that question.
PS: Regarding Calvin and his Commentaries, which, just so happens, I own a complete set. Calvin's Commentaries are written in such a way that he typically provides differing opinions, from other sources, and then decides what makes most sense to him. THEY ARE COMMENTARIES ... and are not now, nor were they ever meant to be, ALL KNOWING, which arrives at the complete conclusion of the matter at hand. In a very real sense, like ALL commentaries, they are a collection of opinions based upon the knowledge and understanding of the writer.
What is the REAL "fruit of the Spirit" that we should all be cultivating in our lives? Is it, speaking in tongues, prophesying, dreams, promoting the prosperity 'gospel' ? Or ... is it this?
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." - Galatians 5:22-25
"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes."
- 2 Timothy 2:23
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are UNPROFITABLE and VAIN." - Titus 3:9
So RayB what is the "Perfect" in 1 Corinthians in your opinion?
12:57 PM,
RayB has already answered that, so go back and carefully read his latest posts.
Craig said to RayB (in part) @ 9:06 AM:
"I’ll pose this challenge yet again to you—and to anyone else—exegete/interpret 1Cor 13:8-12 to support cessationism. Show us all how I’m wrong on this theological point."
Craig,
As I stated before, the charismatic movement does not follow the Biblical mandates regarding the "miracles" that they claim to be a conduit for. Therefore, my conclusion is that it is a false movement of a false "spirit."
Question to you, Craig. If a person is speaking in tongues, and there is no interpreter (as the Bible mandates), how do we know what this "spirit" is saying?
Could this "spirit" be uttering blasphemies? You bet they could. AND, if there is an INTERPRETATION, we would be able to TEST THE SPIRIT by comparing the interpretation with the teachings of Scripture.
I must be daft because I do not see RayB's interpretation of "Perfect" above. Please show it to me.
.... MORE
I never once stated that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches "cessationism." YOU are the one Craig, that claims to know the meaning of the word "perfect" in this passage, which you have authoritatively concluded that the passage teaches CONTINUATIONISM.
While I have read a number of commentaries on this subject, I personally have not come to any conclusion as to the precise meaning of "perfect" as used in this context.
As I stated previously, the REAL meaning of this entire passage was not meant to be a discourse on "gifts" and "miracles," but rather, the superior subject of "charity."
Why is it that you chose to emphasize the "miracles" instead of the "charity" aspect of this passage, is a question that only you can answer.
Anon @ 1:21 PM ...
You must be what you say you are because I already stated I don't hold to an interpretation of the meaning of the word "perfect" in this passage.
What's your opinion? Better yet, what did Herbert W. Armstrong teach on this subject?
You are daft, 1:21 PM, if you think I'd fall for that.
I did not say RayB's "interpretation of 'Perfect' ", as you have just put it, was in his latest posts. I said RayB has already answered that, so go back and carefully read his latest posts. Just because he has answered it does not mean he has given his interpretation of it.
Excellent response, RayB. I hadn't realized 1:21 PM was of the Herbert Armstrong cult of delusion persuasion, yet that sure answers why he or she is so messed up in his or her thinking.
1:21 PM,
Just in case you don't quite understand the nuances of the denotative and connotative qualities of language, someone's giving his opinion regarding something doesn't necessarily mean he has given his interpretation of it. Your attempt at playing semantics has failed.
Wrong and wrong. I am not an Armstrong devotee. Sorry I asked.
"Sorry I asked": I thought you would be.
RayB,
Charismatics don't own the Holy Spirit! Get that notion out of the way that what has been at times, sadly often, abused in that sect of Christendom, is the only thing to see regarding the operations of the Spirit of God Who is not limited or categorized by people......of any era!!!
The prophet Joel told us what Pentecost would be, would look like, and it happened, and declared by Peter at that point in time.
God's people so easily and quickly quench the Spirit and why we don't see many moves in this day and age, but God selects when He wants to "breakthrough" into the scene (anytime and way He chooses!) and He is still operating today by His Spirit because He is God He has not changed, because Jesus said the Spirit would come..and has, He is not absent in doing the works Jesus said He would do. In His full power when men get out of His Way!!! God does not share His Glory with anyone. Anyone. The American part of the church, so lukewarm, has quenched Him so much, but He is working in other parts of the world (hot or cold), places where they have not had the Word of God but in parts and pieces, but that has not stopped God from working miraculously (in many ways to manifest like He can and has done before, and brings His Word into the hands and hearts of those searching, truly longing for Him, while so so many American believers let dust accumulate on their Bibles.
So it is a caution to us to make sure He don't quench Him either, and to our shame and don't - won't allow Him to work outside of the boxes we try to keep Him in.
Thankfully God can and will and does work beyond us.
I didn't know Craig had a wife?
There's your proof RayB, that God is still preforming miracles!
RayB,
Well, we may be getting closer. You at least made a feeble attempt at exegeting/interpreting 1Cor 13:8-12. But you need to try harder. And it’s not that difficult.
You claim I rely on my own interpretation; yet, my interpretation mirrors others, including Calvin in his commentary on 1Corinthians.* I’ve consulted numerous commentaries before arriving at the interpretation (again, which mirrors others, including, e.g. Gordon Fee). Now, let me go back to a previous comment I wrote to help you reach a conclusion—at least a choice between several possible conclusions—on what “that which is perfect[/complete]” is:
----
Taking your preferred KJV, note that 1Cor 13:8 enumerates three things that will (in the future) cease: prophecies, tongues, and knowledge. Paul provides a time marker when these will cease in v. 10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part [see v 9] shall be done away.
So what is “that which is perfect” and when has it/she/he come?
Paul provides a contrast between ‘now’ and ‘then’ in v 12: For now (at the time of Paul’s writing) we see through a glass, darkly [“in part” v 9]; but then (‘when “that which is perfect is come”’) face to face: now (at the time of Paul’s writing) I know in part; but then (‘when “that which is perfect is come”’) shall I know even as also I am known.
So, again, what is “that which is perfect” and when has it/she/he come?
----
Paul juxtaposes “in part” (numerous times) with “that which is perfect”. With the former he uses “now” (present), the latter “then” (future). As Calvin notes, it’s a comparison between ‘imperfect’ (incomplete) and ‘perfect’ (complete).
Identifying the “perfect” is central to the entire chapter, which itself is sandwiched between two others on the charismata, ‘spiritual gifts’. The identity of the “perfect” is central because it indicates WHEN these ‘in part’ gifts will cease. Thus, it determines cessationism or continuationism.
[*Calvin is quite clear on this matter, despite what you, RayB, attempt in your asterisk. His commentaries are certainly his opinions, AS ARE HIS ‘INSTITUTES’.]
[CONT]
[CONT]
John MacArthur, a teacher I generally and genuinely respect, has an opinion I do not share (just like I don’t share his view on the pre-trib “rapture”): the “perfect” is the closing of the Biblical canon. Given that, he’s a cessationist.
Some Reformers apparently thought the “perfect” was the Apostolic age. Again, this implies cessationism.
The main problem I see for these interpretations is found in verse 12. That is, how is it that with the closing of Apostolic age or the closing of the canon do we see “face to face” instead of “through a glass, darkly”? How do we “know even as also I am [/we are] known.”
This is why the best interpretation is either Christ’s Second Coming or the closing of the present age.
You are partially correct in that the superiority of “charity”/”love” is a central part of the chapter. This is what will “abideth”/endure (v. 13). Endure till when? It will endure up to and most likely beyond the coming of the “perfect”.
---
As to the rest of your posts, RayB, you yet continue in erecting straw man versions of my position, and even statements I’ve recently made/clarified. I don’t know if you are purposefully mischaracterizing my stance—despite the fact that I’ve never advocated for any of the positions in the “Charismatic movement” and I’ve actually written against charismatic excesses on my own blog—or you are experiencing some sort of cognitive dissonance, which is adversely affecting your reasoning abilities. In any case, you might benefit from reading this old post of mine:
Creating Straw Men from Cognitive Dissonance
Craig,
You are being PERSONALLY dogmatic on an issue in which at best, your position is based upon a PERSONAL interpretation, as you so aptly illustrate that point with this statement of yours:
"This is why the best interpretation is either Christ’s Second Coming or the closing of the present age."
NOTE: Your "best interpretation" is based upon your own judgment. There is nothing in which anyone can state, with absolute certainty, what the "perfect" is actually referring to, because it simply is not explicit, nor does any other Scripture exist which DEFINES the meaning of "perfect" within the context of this verse.
You can quote Calvin or any other commentator on this subject, but the fact remains, the meaning of "perfect" in this context is unknown, precisely why I take the position of "I DON'T KNOW." Yet, you argue with me because I refuse to agree with YOUR PERSONAL interpretation as to the meaning of this passage.
You state: "Calvin is quite clear on this matter, despite what you, RayB, attempt in your asterisk. His commentaries are certainly his opinions, AS ARE HIS ‘INSTITUTES’.]"
NOTE: Really? Calvin is "quite clear on this matter?" Did you read what I actually posted from his "Institutes?" Here it is again:
"The gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles, which the Lord willed to be brought forth for a time, HAS VANISHED AWAY in order to make the new preaching of the gospel marvelous forever" (Institutes IV, 19, 18). (By miracles is meant any so-called supernatural manifestations such as speaking in tongues, dramatic healings, prophecy, etc.)
What I do KNOW is that the Charismatic movement is replete with unbiblical practices, yet, they claim that their "miraculous" signs are the result of the Holy Spirit, in spite of the fact that their practices those violate the clear mandates of Scripture.
Once again, regarding "miracles," can you show where, by whom and what is actually done that is in accordance with Biblical mandates?
On a personal note ... and it is with a great deal of regret that I feel it is necessary to state the following. I hope you take this as a sincere warning:
Your charge of me having "some sort of cognitive dissonance" is laughable, but, quite expected, as it is a typical tactic of yours to make such a baseless charge. Another of your favorite tactics is to plant a demeaning label upon ANYONE that offers even the slightest disagreement with your lofty, intellectual beliefs. Previously, you claimed that I was "cowardly" because I didn't want to enter into a debate on this subject. No Craig. It was not cowardly at all. The reason I changed my mind was because I recalled from experience what it is like to "debate" with a person that suffers from an enormous amount of personal pride. You clearly fancy yourself to be a person of enormous, superior intellect, precisely why you gravitate to, and defend, the likes of Westcott & Hort, both of whom "interpreted" the Scriptures in accordance with their own intellectual prejudices.
Pride is one of the abominations that the Lord HATES.
"Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished." Proverbs 16:5
I sincerely mean this; you need to do a gut check on this Craig, before it's too late.
https://duckduckgo.com/1 Corinthians 13:10's meaning
I read this at "Got Questions" and it appears to be a reasonable summation of this topic:
Question: "Is cessationism biblical? What is a cessationist?"
Answer: Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.
The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).
Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.
After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).
The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:
1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.
2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.
3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.
4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).
5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.
6) There are indications that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.
The reasons stated above are evidence for cessationism. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.
RayB,
As regards the “perfect”, one must interpret this in a way that makes sense of the entire passage (chapter 13 in its larger context of 12 and 14). The interpretation hinges on how it fits with the “face to face” and “know as I am known” of verse 12. If, like MacArthur, one wishes to interpret the “perfect” as the closing of the canon, then one would simultaneously believe that the Bible allows us to see “face to face” and “know as I am known”.
What I see is that many eisegete (read into) this passage through the lens of their cessationism. It’s somewhat understandable, given the large amount of false charismaticism. It’s a way to quell it. But it’s not intellectually honest.
As regards Calvin, he is obviously of two minds. He clearly identifies the “perfect” in his 1Corinthians commentary. He apparently changed his mind at some point, with one writing differing from the other (the commentary vs. “Institutes”). This is not all that unusual—a situation in which an extant writing of a particular individual contradicts another. People change their minds. But, again, he is quite clear in his commentary on the “perfect”.
As for the ‘cognitive dissonance’, I’m not being nasty or condescending in this regard, as it seems you are taking it. Looking at your posts on this current subject, you have quite often mischaracterized my writings, even after I’ve clarified. There are only two possibilities I can think of: either you are doing it purposefully for whatever the reason, or you are experiencing some sort of cognitive dissonance, some sort of misunderstanding. The latter is not necessarily negative—as I point out in the article, EVERYONE experiences it at times. It’s sort of like the Dunning-Kruger effect (when properly understood): many people fall victim to it, whether of lower, middle or higher intelligence levels. I’ve certainly fallen victim to each of these at various times.
For an example of why I wondered this about you, I provide the following: You wrote:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1
In contrast to this warning from Scripture, Craig asks us to "believe" his admitted "hearsay" spirit that performed the "tongues-speaking" miracle that he wrote about.
This is a mischaracterization. I gave an account provided firsthand to me by someone I know. There was even an interpreter present. And the interpreter verified the message. This fits the Biblical practice. The only reason it’s “hearsay” is that I didn’t personally witness it. But, how is that different than any other account one might read online? Unless there is video ‘evidence’, anyone can categorically reject the veracity of any of it.
In any case, the question you must answer is this: Does the Bible support cessationism? If so, there’s no need to even bother with this or that account of charismaticism, for they’d all be false. But if the Bible is either: (a) silent on the matter or, (b) actually supports continuationism, then each and every account must be measured against the Scriptures. For these reasons, I think it would behoove you to do an in-depth study on the “perfect” in 1Cor 13:8-12, within its larger context of chapters 12 and 14.
RayB,
The GotQuestions.org site is generally pretty good, but not without fault and bias. To their credit, though, they admit their bias (in this case) here:
As a preface to this article:
What is continuationism?
…the editors write this:
“Please note, as a ministry, GotQuestions.org is not in agreement with continuationism. The article below is written by someone who holds to continuationism. We thought it would be worthwhile to have an article that positively presents continuationism, as it is always good for our viewpoints to be challenged, motivating us to further search the Scriptures to make sure our beliefs are biblically sound.”
And, look at what the (guest) author writes (bold mine):
Cessationists often cite 1 Corinthians 13:8–10 to support the idea that some gifts ceased when “the perfect” came. Some believe that the “perfect” refers to the completion of the Bible. This position holds that once the Bible was in completed form there was no longer any need for miraculous works of the Holy Spirit through believers. However, verse 12 clarifies the identity of that “perfect”: “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” Since we cannot see the Bible face to face, nor can it “know” us, continuationists consider this passage a reference to the second coming of Jesus. At that time there will be no need for the Holy Spirit’s gifts, including the gift of knowledge (verse 8), as we will be in the physical presence of Jesus Himself.
---
To illustrate how it is not without fault, the following article shows a fundamental misunderstanding of grammatical gender, confusing it with personal gender. The Holy Spirit is a ‘Person’ because of the manner in which the Spirit is presented in Scripture, regardless of the fact that the Greek word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is neuter in grammatical gender. That said, a large portion of the second paragraph in the link below is wrong:
Is the Holy Spirit a person?
… First, every pronoun used in reference to the Spirit is “he” not “it.” The original Greek language of the New Testament is explicit in confirming the person of the Holy Spirit. The word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is neuter and would naturally take neuter pronouns to have grammatical agreement. Yet, in many cases, masculine pronouns are found (e.g., John 15:26; 16:13-14). Grammatically, there is no other way to understand the pronouns of the New Testament related to the Holy Spirit—He is referred to as a “He,” as a person.
Masculine pronouns are found in those verses cited because they refer to “paraclete” (not pneuma), a noun masculine in grammatical gender. But in other verses throughout Scripture, if we were to translate per grammatical gender, we would use “it”; however, that would sound odd in English, making the Spirit sound like an impersonal thing. In short, the article is wrong here.
"You at least made a feeble attempt at exegeting/interpreting 1Cor 13:8-12. But you need to try harder. And it’s not that difficult."
Just who the "expletive deleted" do you think you are, Craig. You really are a vile person.
I‘d like to hear Christine‘s take on this.
She‘s well read and I‘m confident would offer a balanced and measured approach when mediating between Craig and Ray B.
10:49 PM,
You‘re obviously the same poster as 12:46 AM, 3:06 AM and 5:14 PM.
Grow up and give us all a break！
@ 10:58 PM: AMEN!
This blogspot has a long history of a person or persons with a deep-seated neurotic compulsion to attempt to assign authorship to anonymous posts.
Not to mention quite possibly then endorsing their own anonymous post by posting another anonymous post praising THAT post.
12:13 AM,
Is that you trying to cover your tracks, 12:46 AM, 3:16 AM, 5:14 PM and 10:49 PM?
Divide and conquer now fully in play! The globalists ‘mass extermination endgame’ on with Democrats wanting to throw the unvaccinated into 21st century-style leper colonies
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-04-02-globalists-mass-extermination-endgame-is-at-hand.html
The abomination of desolation is probably not what mainstream protestants think it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4xT5naIEaM
A great cure for lymphodema is 3 cigarettes, 3 aspirin and a double expresso.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXSFg53JojM
forget dating try hanging out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSdrffnykn4
warning to the fainthearted for the above video - 3:40 onwards might be a bit graphic for snowflakes.
The poster of the 5:48 AM through 6:14 AM posts directly above posted Christine Erikson video links.
Although I'm personally a tad tempted to think that those 4 as well 10:49 PM are posted by 'Sandra' (wink, wink) I think it more likely that they are all tongue-in-cheek attempts at humor about MCE.
I can see clearly now the hair is gone - I can see all orange blobs in my way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtbt3PK9ZVM
Narcisisstic [sic] misuse of The Bible and Hollywood purveys bait
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryCxj3vltlU
We Made The Aliens, They Didn't Make Us!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NnMjnL_ee4
... "two greys and a reptoid at different times told different humans that they were originally from Earth. This fits my scenario. This video originally put on my Christine Erikson channel."
https://tinyurl.com/4edfne5b
Take the quiz!
This quiz is based on the book “A Possible History of Life on Mars: A Christian Researcher’s Perspective” by Christine Erikson
https://www.metaphysics-knowledge.com/quizzes/ufo-aliens-engineered-by-ancient-humans-quiz/
FBI Promises To Hunt Down Anyone Who Lies About Taking COVID Vax As Vaccine Passports Loom
https://nationalfile.com/fbi-promises-to-hunt-down-anyone-who-lies-about-taking-covid-vax-as-vaccine-passports-loom/
"Out! Out! You Nazis! Out! Gestapo is Not Allowed Here! - Pastor Throws Canadian Cops Out of Church House
https://www.toddstarnes.com/values/out-out-you-nazis-out-gestapo-is-not-allowed-here-pastor-throws-canadian-cops-out-of-church-house/
Hi 6:39 AM,
Who is Sandra?
National Guard soldier killed herself after being gang-raped by-colleagues:mom
nylost.com/2020/11/18/soldier-killed-herself-after-being-gang-raped-by-colleagues:mom
nylost? Maybe that's prophetic?
Should read nypost @ 11:49 AM
New Black Muppets Teaching Two-Year-Olds About 'Racial Literacy'
https://redstate.com/mikemiller/2021/03/26/nothing-to-see-here-just-new-black-muppets-teaching-two-year-olds-about-racial-literacy-n350640
11:47 AM,
A Pro-MCE poster that MCE denied was she, herself.
A North Carolina school district says White parents are a problem
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/03/a_north_carolina_school_district_says_white_parents_are_a_problem.html
NPR Attempts to Fluff Hunter Biden, and the Beclowning Commences
https://federate.com/bonchie/2021/04/01/npr-attempts-to-fluff-hunter-biden-and-the-beclowning-commences-n354219
Above @ 12:32 PM should read redstate.com
An NBC Medical Drama Took Televising Antisemitism to a Whole New Level
https;//redstate.com/brandon_morse/2021/02/24/an-nbc-medical-drama-took-anti-semitism-to-a-whole-new-level-n332001
12:11 PM,
Interesting, thanks.
Lol,
Just had a look at the 7:07 AM post. Christine is singing.
I'm sure it is no secret that I am not a Roman Catholic. However, I do have A LOT of respect for Abp. Viganò. Below is a link to a rather lengthy opinion piece penned by Abp. Viganò. In my opinion, this is nothing short of masterful. PLEASE take the time to read, and, consider what this man is saying about the many issues surrounding COVID, the vaccine, and the Great Reset.
TRUTH Over FEAR: COVID-19, the vaccine, and the Great Reset
"This crisis serves to create the conditions necessary to make the Great Reset inevitable, that is, the transition from the world based on Greco-Roman civilization and Christianity to a world without a soul, without roots, without ideals. In practice, it is the passage from the Kingdom of Christ to the Kingdom of the Antichrist."
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/abp-vigano-on-truth-over-fear-covid-19-the-vaccine-and-the-great-reset?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard
China Reportedly Imprisoning Christians In Mobile Torture And Brainwashing Facilities
By Jeffrey Swindoll/DISRN
Apr 3rd, 2021
Chinese Christians said they were imprisoned and routinely beaten by Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials in "transformation" centers designed to make them renounce Christianity, according to a Radio Free Asia (RFA) report on Thursday.
"It was a mobile facility, that could just set up in some basement somewhere," said one house church member in the Sichuan province, using the pseudonym Li Yuese.
"It was staffed by people from several different government departments. ... It had its (CCP) own political and legal affairs committee working group, and they mainly target Christians who are members of house churches."
Christianity is legal in China under the CCP's Chinese Catholic Church, and the so-called "Protestant" alternative Patriotic Three-Self Church, also run by the CCP. Many Christians reject both and instead participate in "house churches," which are often raided by CCP officials.
Li said he was confined in a windowless room for "eight or nine months." During that time, he was beaten, verbally abused, and "mentally tortured" by staff.
"You have to accept the statement they prepare for you," Li said. "If you refuse, you will be seen as having a bad attitude and they will keep you in detention and keep on beating you."
"There is no time limit for the brainwashing process."
"You can't see the sun, so you lose all no (sic) concept of time."
"I couldn't sleep; after you've been in there a week, death starts to look better than staying there. ... I bashed myself against the wall to self-harm."
RFA estimates China is home to 68 million Protestants, with 23 million attending state-affiliated churches, and nine million Catholics, with most attending state-sponsored churches.
https://disrn.com/news/report-china-imprisoning-christians-in-underground-brainwashing-torture-centers
CHILD TORTURE PAYS: Planned Parenthood Now In The Business Of Chemically Castrating Adolescents And Neutering Male Children
Sunday, April 04, 2021
By: Lance D Johnson
(Natural News) Of all the wonderful women’s healthcare services offered at Planned Parenthood, none can compare to their latest healthcare endeavor: neutering male children. That’s right, Planned Parenthood is now preying on adolescent boys to convince them to take synthetic hormones. Planned Parenthood isn’t content with their current operation — pressuring women to go under the knife as their child’s skull is cracked, organs harvested, and their bodily remains sucked out of the womb. When it comes to planning parenthood, why not destroy the reproductive systems of young boys from the start?
The world’s leading clinic for abortion coercion is entering a new market: the transgender business. Planned Parenthood wants to reach out to young people and convince them to take synthetic hormones to alter their appearance and physiology. Planned Parenthood wants to prey on the adolescent mind and convince young boys and girls to alter their hormonal expression and undergo surgical operations that make them neutered and infertile.
Planned Parenthood now preying on adolescents, turning them against their biology and chemically castrating them
Planned Parenthood wants to profit from adolescent confusion, image struggles, identity issues and natural curiosities that take place during times of great hormonal and physical change. If Planned Parenthood can diagnose more young people with gender dysphoria, they can convince them to take synthetic hormones to appease certain feelings and ideations. If Planned Parenthood can get more adolescents to identify as “gender non-conforming” they can profit off them by prescribing synthetic hormones while permanently damaging their reproductive systems. Under the spell of this diagnosis, young men and women will be readily convinced to change the way they look. This can lead to chemical and physical castration, one of the most regretful decisions a young person can make.
Planned Parenthood’s 2019-2020 annual report reveals that the women’s healthcare provider is venturing into a very abusive and coercive industry. Trans identification among adolescents is a growing trend in the 21st century. Planned Parenthood wants to capitalize on that trend, adding another layer of coercion, while pressuring adolescents to change their appearance and hormonal chemistry. The report shows that two hundred Planned Parenthood centers across thirty-one states are now accepting gender confused patients so they can be coerced into take synthetic hormones.
Planned Parenthood is leading adolescents to self destructive behaviors
Planned Parenthood is NOT offering mental health support to the teenagers or providing unbiased counseling services that help teenagers resolve underlying emotional and life issues. Planned Parenthood is only offering “gender-affirming hormone therapy” to adolescents.
These teenagers may have questions about their appearance, identity, feelings and sexuality, but instead of being encouraged to resolve issues and understand their biology, the teens are coerced to identify as gender non-conforming and seek changes to their body. The ensuing “hormone therapy” ignores underlying mental health issues and further exacerbates endocrine disruption in the child’s body. This “hormone therapy” permanently damage the young person’s physical and sexual development, and psychology entraps the adolescent into thinking that there is no turning back from this decision.
Planned Parenthood is exploiting childhood psychology and sexually harassing young people in a way that is reminiscent of pedophilia. As the predatory institution damages the health of young people, they are creating customers for life. It won’t be long before Planned Parenthood directly engages in genital mutilation surgeries.
“They seek hormones to modify their bodies, not to the extent that someone who identifies as transgender might but just for example, for a girl to have less fat and more musculature to look a little bit more masculine,” explains Attorney Mary Hasson, a fellow in the Catholic Studies program at the Washington, D.C.-based Ethics & Public Policy Center. “Instead of their underlying wounds being addressed and someone sorting out why it is,” she explained, “they’re simply medicating that and creating new customers for life in a way that’s deeply damaging to these women’s [and men’s] bodies.”
For more on this issue, check out Gender.News
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-04-04-planned-parenthood-now-chemically-castrating-adolescents-neutering-male-children.html
The Blood Of Murdered Unborn Children Cries To God From Abortion-Tainted Vaccines And Medicines
Friday, April 02, 2021
by: News Editors
(Natural News) Anti-Christian world powers that promote the culture of death are seeking to impose on the world’s population an implicit — though remote and passive — collaboration with abortion. Such remote collaboration, in itself, is also an evil because of the extraordinary historical circumstances in which these same world powers are promoting the murder of unborn children and the exploitation of their remains. When we use vaccines or medicines which utilize cell lines originating from aborted babies, we physically benefit from the “fruits” of one of the greatest evils of mankind — the cruel genocide of the unborn. For if one innocent child had not been cruelly murdered, we would not have these concrete vaccines or medicines. We should not be so naive as not to see that these vaccines and medicines not only offer a health benefit but also promise to promote the culture of death.
Of course, some argue that even if people do not take these vaccines, the abortion industry will still continue. We may not reduce the number of abortions if we stop taking such vaccines or medicines, but this is not the issue. The problem lies in the moral weakening of our resistance to the crime of abortion, and to the crime of the trafficking, exploitation and commercialization of the body parts of murdered unborn children. The use of such vaccines and medicines in some way morally – albeit indirectly — supports this horrible situation. Observing the response from the Catholic Church, abortionists and those responsible for biomedical research will conclude that the hierarchy has acquiesced to this situation, which includes an entire chain of crimes against life and indeed can aptly be described as a “chain of death.” We have to wake up to the real dangers, consequences and circumstances of the current situation.
Continued at...
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-04-02-blood-of-murdered-unborn-children-cries.html
Thanks RayB,
Here's the Pdf of the open letter from ABP to POTUS 45 regarding the Great Reset.
https://www.catholicbusinessjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/Open_Letter_to_POTUS.pdf
BREAKING NEWS
Reuters
(Washington, DC) Today at an early morning press conference President Biden was asked what his position was on the Great Reset:
"The what? The Great...oh, right. Well, my position is (and I'm surprised that y'all are that interested, but anyhow...) I love it! Nothing better than a Great RESET'S PEANUT BUTTER CUP!"
Must see video: Biden's massive illegal immigrant pipeline exposed . . .
https://www.infowars.com/posts/special-report-bidens-massive-illegal-immigrant-pipeline/
We need to keep persecuted and tortured Christians world wide in our prayers.
If this isn't the conquering we now see, then I'm perplexed!
To Anon @ 4:37 AM ...
Thanks for posting Vigano's open letter to Trump. I read it back when it was first published, and just read it again. He is a very brave man and has been consistent, and, unwavering in his quest to speak the truth. I pray for his safety.
God always has His "voices in the wilderness" that cannot keep silent when it comes to the truth. The vast, powerful, information (i.e. propaganda) apparatus of the New World Order is determined to silence these voices.
We are living in very dangerous times, where declaring the truth is perceived to be "a revolutionary act."
Can We Finally Stop Pretending that George Floyd’s Death Had Anything to Do with Racism?
After over $2 BILLION in property damage, the death of 19 innocent lives, countless people injured, businesses ruined ... all in response to the media's false narrative regarding the "murder" of George Floyd, the TRUTH, for all to see, is finally coming out in this trial:
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/04/can_we_finally_stop_pretending_that_george_floyds_death_had_anything_to_do_with_racism.html
I can see clearly now the hair is gone
I can see all orange blobs in my way
Gone is the dark seer that had me blind
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
Oh yes I can make it now the Tingle's gone,
The cause of the bad feelings has disappeared,
Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
Look what they've found, cloned aliens on Mars,
Look what they made, cloned aliens on Ma-a-ars!
I can see clearly now the hair is gone
I can see all orange blobs in my way
Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
Bli-li-li-li-light
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day...
Yeah, Yeah ...
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtbt3PK9ZVM
I can see clearly now the hair is gone
I can see all orange blobs in my way
Gone is the dark seer that had me blind
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
Oh yes I can make it now Mike Tingle's gone,
The cause of the bad feelings was the Resident Seer,
Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
Look what they've found, cloned aliens on Mars,
Look what they made, cloned aliens on Ma-a-ars!
I can see clearly now the hair is gone
I can see all orange blobs in my way
Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
Bli-li-li-li-light
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day.
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day...
Yeah, Yeah ...
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day ...
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day...
Yeah, Yeah ...
I'm gonna be a
blight, blight, blight,
Both night and day ...
People are strange when you're a stranger - Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted - Streets are uneven when you're down
People are strange when you're a stranger - Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted - Streets are uneven when you're down
When you're strange Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange HAS No one remembers your name When you're strange ANYONE Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange SEEN No one remembers your name
When you're strange Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange MIKE'S KEY ? No one remembers your name
When you're strange Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange No one remembers your name
People are strange when you're a stranger - Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted - Streets are uneven when you're down
People are strange when you're a stranger - Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted - Streets are uneven when you're down
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair has gone ----------------------I can see all blobsticles in my way
----------------------Gone is the dark seer that had me blind
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Oh yes I can make it now Mike Tingle's gone,
----------------------The cause of the bad feelings was the Resident Seer,
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Look what they've found, cloned aliens on Mars,
----------------------Look what they made, cloned aliens on Ma-a-ars!
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair is gone
----------------------I can see all orange blobs in my way
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------li-li-li-light
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
When you're strange-HAS--------------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange---ANYONE---------------------No one remembers your name When you're strange--------SEEN------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------THE----------------No one remembers your name
When you're strange-------------BLIND------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------------SEER'S-------No one remembers your name
When you're strange----------------------KEY-----Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-------------------------?----No one remembers your name
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair has gone ----------------------I can see all blobsticles in my way
----------------------Gone is the dark seer that had me blind
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Oh yes I can make it now Mike Tingle's gone,
----------------------The cause of the bad feelings was the Resident Seer,
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Look what they've found, cloned aliens on Mars,
----------------------Look what they made, cloned aliens on Ma-a-ars!
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair is gone
----------------------I can see all orange blobs in my way
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------li-li-li-light
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
When you're strange-HAS--------------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange---ANYONE---------------------No one remembers your name When you're strange--------SEEN------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------THE----------------No one remembers your name
When you're strange-------------BLIND------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------------SEER'S-------No one remembers your name
When you're strange----------------------KEY-----Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-------------------------?----No one remembers your name
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair has gone ----------------------I can see all blobsticles in my way
----------------------Gone is the dark seer that had me blind
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Oh yes I can make it now Mike Tingle's gone,
----------------------The cause of the bad feelings was the Resident Seer,
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Look what they've found, cloned aliens on Mars,
----------------------Look what they made, cloned aliens on Ma-a-ars!
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair is gone
----------------------I can see all orange blobs in my way
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------li-li-li-light
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
When you're strange-HAS--------------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange---ANYONE-----------------No one remembers your name When you're strange--------SEEN------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------THE----------------No one remembers your name
When you're strange-------------BLIND------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------------SEER'S-------No one remembers your name
When you're strange----------------------KEY-----Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-------------------------?----No one remembers your name
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair has gone
----------------------I can see all blobsticles in my way
----------------------Gone is the dark seer that had me blind
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Oh yes I can make it now Mike Tingle's gone,
----------------------The cause of the bad feelings was the Resident Seer,
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------Look what they've found, cloned aliens on Mars,
----------------------Look what they made, cloned aliens on Ma-a-ars!
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I can see clearly now the hair is gone
----------------------I can see all orange blobs in my way
----------------------Cleared out my chakras with green ether gel,
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------li-li-li-light
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day.
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
--------------------------------------------
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day...
----------------------Yeah, Yeah ...
----------------------I'm gonna be a
----------------------blight, blight, blight,
----------------------Both night and day ...
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
When you're strange-HAS--------------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange---ANYONE---------------------No one remembers your name
When you're strange--------SEEN------------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------THE----------------No one remembers your name
When you're strange-------------BLIND------------Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-----------------SEER'S-------No one remembers your name
When you're strange----------------------KEY-----Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange-------------------------?----No one remembers your name
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
People are strange when you're a stranger/Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted/Streets are uneven when you're down.
Changing the subject back to Planned Deception
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/vatican-digs-illegal-tunnel-exhume-2385593
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/vatican-digs-illegal-tunnel-exhume-23855934
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/vatican-digs-illegal-tunnel-exhume-23855934
Two teen girls accused of car-jacking and killing Uber Eats driver in D.C. 'reach plea deal ensuring they'll not be held past 21 or go to prison'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9437615/Two-teenage-girls-accused-car-jacking-killing-Uber-Eats-driver-reach-plea-deal.html
Pope Calls Coronavirus Vaccinations an Ethical Obligation
Saying he will be vaccinated himself next week, Francis described the refusal to get the vaccine as suicidal
https://www.nytime.com/2021/01/09/world/europe/pope-coronavirus-vaccinations.html
IF CHAUVIN WALKS IT'S TIME WE START CAPPING WHITE SONS & DAUGHTERS
https://i2.wp.com/www.dailycrow.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/58c00d2eb583a54c.png?
Another Day, More Evidence That Derek Chauvin Brutally Killed George Floyd Just Like We Saw With Our Eyeballs
https://www.wonkette.com/another-day-more-evidence-that-derek-chauvin-brutally-killed-george-floyd
x
💩💩
11:03 PM,
You're projecting, like a macaque throwing turds at the passing tourists. What you are posting has come straight from your heart, you 11:03 PM, are quite literally full of shit!
Leave X alone, you vile piece of shit, you bullying basturd.
Go ...k yourself!
I let it go for Easter but I still find it laughable that some anonymous poster thinks God can/has used a fallen man like Trump for good; but, God can't do the same with a fallen man like Biden. He also denied MAGA as a political theology yet claimed that anyone that votes against Trump is evil and based upon his unbiblical "works" test, not a Christian. Must be a Roman Catholic as he certainly doesn't understand the gospel. I prayed for his/her discernment and hope in time as Trump's character flaws and illegal unpatriotic actions come into the light, such brings about the gift of repentance for such seeming idolatry.
My wife and I did get the vaccine on Friday. Slight arm soreness but other than that, uneventful. In and out in 20 minutes at my local hospital. Before anyone criticizes me though, your "Apostle" Trump got vaccinated in January and recommends you get vaccinated as well.
"FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD Trump on Tuesday evening told his supporters to get the COVID-19 vaccine, saying it is a safe shot that works. "I would recommend it and I would recommend it to a lot of people that don't want to get it and a lot of those people voted for me, frankly," Trump told "Fox News Primetime."
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-03-17/trump-tells-followers-to-get-vaccinated-against-coronavirus
Here's an article you may find interesting as well about White Identity Politics and MAGA intersectionality.
Donald Trump and the Triumph of White Identity Politics:
Diagnosing the Trumpen Proletariat
"And this is borne out by what might be the most comprehensive demographic study on the Trumpen Proletariat yet. Gallup’s Jonathan Rothwell conducted an in-depth analysis which revealed something profound: Trump’s supporters are richer, not poorer, than average. Moreover, he concluded that the overriding factor determining support for Trump was not economics (NAFTA, Chinese competition, etc.) but rather segregation. Specifically, Rothwell found that the core of Trump’s support came from people living in communities mostly or entirely unaffected by immigration.
Consider that for a moment. White people living in all white communities thinking that they are under assault from immigrants, Muslims and other minorities. It is, once again, that entitativity: the feeling that white people form a cohesive and singular group that is increasingly oppressed. It is not immigrants taking their jobs, it’s the idea of immigrants taking their jobs. It’s not Muslims moving in next door, it’s the possibility that it might happen.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/12/13/donald-trump-and-the-triumph-of-white-identity-politics-2/
x
1:09 am - thanks but it's fine. She saves me a lot of time and effort when she paraphrases her opinions with 💩💩.
Did I say that out loud? D"oh.
Hi Christine,
I have seen what's been happening here and elsewhere.
Here's some information you may need to pursue any legal avenues you feel you want to.
Paul Farrar (also called: Paul Zimble)
Age:65
Tel :207 775 2159 (other numbers:207-671-8320, 317-867-5309 ).
Address: 122 Anglers Rd, Windham, ME 04062
Also (previously): 46 Deering St, Portland
Email: pfarrar@maine.rr.com
Business address: Paul Farrar Tree Service, 175 Prospect Street, Biddeford, Maine 04101"
Also, you may want to call and notify his wife, Andrea, of his extra-marital affairs.
Let me know here if you need further details,
A friend.
hi christine,
update> it appears paul is using the anglers road address fraudulently for his online infidelities. it appears to only be a place he stores equipment and no house is built on that plot.
you can use his business address to get him subpoena-ed.
don't forget to call andrea zimble farrar on the numbers I gave you.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/122+Anglers+Rd,+Windham,+ME+04062%E7%BE%8E%E5%9C%8B/@43.8567892,-70.4420754,77m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cb28b2173ab2fcf:0xd417d962303deaa5!8m2!3d43.8570058!4d-70.4415558?hl=zh-TW
your friend,
s.
oh no, i have just read up on how he tried to railroad his neighbors out of property rights and stuff. he lost the court case though, which is great news for justice
he uses his paulie email too. his pet name on those swinger sites he visits.
46 Deering Ave #2, Portland, ME 04101
his middle initial is c too ... it doesn't stand for christine, of course. i bet it's a four or five letter word, like craig or something synonymous with craig too. oh yeah, an anagram of that viking king who claimed he could hold back the sea - cnut.
i meant to write he is 64 - typo. he was born on october 13, 1956.
if you don't want to contact andrea zimble or eric ferrar, then here's a list of neighbors to choose from.
neighbors
152 Grant St
Denise Boullie, Lucas R Bowen, Scott Broad, Amy Clark, Thanht Dang, Keith Emory, Michael Flick, Julianne Harris, Alden Mc clure, Brent C Miller
44 Deering Ave
Ryan Ciriello, Erin Corica, Annie Larmon, Michael Solak
42 Deering Ave
Michael J Blanchard, Patrick G Dullea, Kevin G Egan
158 Grant St
Jason Farr, John R Gelegan, John A Kennedy, Jennifer Mc namee
40 Deering Ave
Rena M Burke, Barbara W Raisbeck, Gordon Raisbeck, Josephine C Teras, June M Teras
38 Deering Ave
David Aikins, Assunta B Kent, Ellen Richards
160 Grant St
Billy R Shawkey, Vanessa M Shawkey
159 Grant St
Samuel A Banks, Chester Choquet, David R Garciacastro, Merrell Reeves, Katherine M Sawyer, Denise Smith, Katherine Surkin, Morgan Tyo, Matthew Vittorelli, Pamela J Whitney
157 Grant St
Andrew Barbo, Jerry Boivin, S Carpenter, Nate Chesley, Thomas Coyne, Delle C Dario, Daniel J Dunham, Deena Dwyer, T Galligher, Tana Gegen
34 Deering Ave
Chandra D Carlson, Dan Cohnstaedt, F Desrochers, K Kunz, Ahmad Sadka, John A Tanguay
hope that helps,
s.
a suggestion, christine,
write a letter detailing your complaint and the stuff he's been up to, then duplicate it and send a copy to each of all the people at his neighboring addresses. if he then publicly apologizes here, let it go. if not, move to the next step - lawyer + subpoena = compensation.
his neighbors at number 48 should be able to help you with a good lawyer.
s
why not give the neighbors at number 48 a call? 207-772-4861
let them know what's been going on.
s
1) Dullea Patk G, 42 Deering St, 207-772-8104
2) Patterson Michael J, 42 Deering St, 207-772-8104
3) Byrne C, 43 Deering St, 207-773-6036
4) Maxwell Cait, 43 Deering St 207-772-7030
5) Monahan Associates, 43 Deering St, 207-771-0900
6) Furtado Communications Design, 44 Deering St, 207-699-2396
7) McMellon W, 44 Deering St, 207-775-3567
8) Wright Sandy, 44 Deering St, 207-773-0072
9) Zagarella S, 44 Deering St, 207-828-1063
10) Bausman David, 45 Deering St, 207-828-3927
11) Gates-Elston Vanessa, 45 Deering St, 207-253-5636
12) McCarten E, 45 Deering St, 207-772-4187
13) Cook Thatcher, 46 Deering St, 207-775-4730
14) Farrar P, and, Zimble A J, 46 Deering St, 207-775-2159 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15) Holmes Paige, 47 Deering St, 207-761-2582
16) Kilmartin Kellie, 47 Deering St, 207-871-1828
17) Whitelaw K, 47 Deering St, 207-775-1947
18) Griffin Charli R, 48 Deering St, 207-772-4861
19) Reed Spencer, 48 Deering St, 207-775-9916
State and Federal Stalking Laws
Federal law provides tools to combat cyberstalking.
Under 18 U.S.C. 875(c), it is a federal crime, punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000
https://cyber.harvard.edu/vaw00/cyberstalking_laws.html
x,
It is you who denies Trump could and would and was and still is used for good.
While Biden is evil to openly provoke God to His face (and so are those who support and promote him just as you have done, keep doing).
And God can and will use that known evil from your favorite regime for the good of His kingdom. Take note of that you obtuse know-it-all, virtue signaling, foolish minded coward who won't stand for the Lord while you say you do. How stupid you are to limit God. Because Biden will continue to rebel and that won't stop the Lord. His Plan is tracking like always. Trump or no Trump is not the point in the slightest and that goes entirely over you massive sized head. People are held accountable for choices that work for the Lord or against Him. Good consequences, bad consequences, and God oversees it all with His Own power to accomplish His will, men either working for or against Him. You have named your poison and you will drink from it's cup.
Your big problem is you (and others like you) are a millstone around the necks of the innocent and young, against all that is decent and moral in what you are standing with, standing proudly for (and it is not in the least Biblical justice and righteousness as you pretend),is egregious criminal behavior from the highest office of the land and the ultimate targets of the Biden administration are children, (even poor little ones being dragged {or dropped from high wall and abandoned} over the border used as pawns for the cartel loving, human-trafficking president of all time, your "big guy" Biden). So there is a consequence for you (actually this is just one occasion for you to answer for).
Read it for yourself: Matthew 18:6:
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
You will answer, x, as you slam the door in the face of righteous things, things the Bible stands for and you do not, because you are a mean spirited, sin-sick, bitter soul against the Lord and His people the church. And not a believer in the Lord of the Bible, you have created your own version of Jesus. That is verboten.
You will choke on your chuckle some day, and that day is coming..
Constance,
Please remove the stalking posts above and BAN this poster from ever posting again on this site again.
Dr. Ryan Cole Blows the Whole COVID-19 Propaganda Away
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/04/no_author/dr-ryan-cole-blows-the-whole-covid-19-propaganda-away/
Highlights:
Coronavirus infections are seasonal
Average COVID-19 age of death 78.6 years. Average annual US age of death historically 78.6 years.
Face mask wearing outdoors is absolute insanity. No study shows any super-spreader event outdoors. The best mask of all is your immune system.
There is no such thing as cold and flu season. There is only low vitamin D season.
Inflammatory (cytokine) storm cannot be controlled without adequate vitamin D levels.
Massive numbers of Americans have low vitamin D levels.
96% of ICU patients are vitamin D deficient
You cannot synthesize vitamin D from sunlight during fall and winter at 35-degrees north.
You living in northern climates you are immune suppressed if you do not supplement with vitamin D during fall and winter.
Scandinavian countries (Finland, Norway, Sweden) test their citizens twice a year for vitamin D and fortify 35 foods with vitamin D.
Our population is left vulnerable to any seasonal viral infection without a public health program to promote vitamin D adequacy.
There is not social disparity of care but the fact darker skin pigmentation inhibits sunshine vitamin D synthesis in the skin.
Fauci says he personally takes 8000-9000 units of vitamin D per day but why has this has not become a public health message?
The top three public health messages should be: 1- vitamin D; 2- vitamin D; 3- vitamin D.
By law, the federal government cannot approve a vaccine if there is a proven treatment. That would be Ivermectin.
The government is in bed with a vaccine company; both the federal government and Moderna co-hold patents on their RNA vaccine. The “fox is guarding the henhouse.”
The drug Remdesivir only works during the first 2-3 days of the infection. It does not increase survival. It is like “peeing on a forest fire.”
Four billion doses of Ivermectin have safely taken Ivermectin. Death rate decreased 70-90% in hospitals treating COVID-19 patients.
Of the half million COVID-19 deaths in North America, there would be 375,000 less deaths if Ivermectin were used! Public health officials have blood on their hands. 100% of Ivermectin-treated patients don’t get ill. Works for all genetic variants.
The vaccines are an experiment on society.
The vaccine is unproven and long-term safety data is not even being
PS: WATCH the video linked in 12:28 PM post.
Another VERY bad day for the Prosecution in the Chauvin case. Watch for yourself:
LIVE: Chauvin Trial Day 8 – Will State’s Non-MPD Use of Force Expert Save This Prosecution?
Not seen a prosecution suffer a day like yesterday since the Zimmerman trial.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-8-will-states-expert-witness-save-this-prosecution/
PS: Of course, the media has brainwashed a significant number of people to believe that Chauvin set out to, and did, murder George Floyd. Completely missing from the media narrative is the fact that Floyd had 3 TIMES the normal lethal amount of Fentanyl in his body, traces of meth, along with a very serious heart condition.
Also, Floyd was known to be a violent criminal. He had a long criminal rap sheet, which included a violent home invasion, in which Floyd held a gun to the stomach of a pregnant Black woman while his partners ransacked her home. Floyd was convicted of that crime and spent 5 years in prison for this offense.
FDA ORDERS Dr. Mercola To STOP Writing About Health Benefits Of VITAMIN D… Because KNOWLEDGE Is The ENEMY Of EVERY Totalitarian Regime!
Tuesday, April 06, 2021
by: Ethan Huff
(Natural News) The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) are on a witch hunt against Dr. Joseph Mercola, who was threatened to stop writing about the health benefits of vitamin D in warding off respiratory illnesses like the Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19).
Last summer, CSPI launched a social media campaign that aimed to put an immediate end to Mercola.com, the longtime health information website of Dr. Mercola. Not long after, the FDA issued Dr. Mercola a warning letter “to stop writing about nutritional products that can lower your risk of respiratory infections such as COVID-19.”
CSPI, in case you are unfamiliar with it, is a so-called “consumer advocacy group” bankrolled by the likes of Bill and Melinda Gates, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Rockefeller Family Fund, Bloomberg Philanthropies, and other deep state organizations advancing a global eugenics agenda.
CSPI is also partnered with Monsanto. Several years back, Gregory Jaffe, the group’s director of biotechnology, issued a statement declaring that mandatory labeling of genetically modified organisms (GMOs) should not happen because it would be “confusing” and “misleading” for consumers.
“CSPI rails against published science demonstrating certain nutrients can boost your immune function and help lower your risk of severe infection, saying it discourages mask-wearing, which has no published scientific evidence to back its universal use,” Dr. Mercola further explains.
“CSPI has a history of promoting industry science and propaganda, having supported artificial sweeteners, trans fats, GMOs, fake meat and the low-fat myth. They’ve also actively undermined transparency in labeling efforts.”
Dr. Mercola puts FDA in its place, says it has NO authority to restrict free speech
Being the fighter that he is, Dr. Mercola did not back down in the face of FDA aggression. In fact, he told the FDA off while asserting his First Amendment right to free speech, which he has been exercising for decades in the interest of promoting human health and longevity.
On June 21, CSPI issued a press release falsely accusing Dr. Mercola of making illegal claims about “at least 22 vitamins, supplements and other products available for sale on his web site.” Dr. Mercola was quick to point out that no Covid-19-related claims exist on any of the product links, thus meaning that none of them are in violation of anything outlined in the Appendix of Illegal Claims.
CSPI upped the ante by testifying in a Senate hearing against Dr. Mercola, urging the FDA and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to take “regulatory action” against him. The FDA responded by issuing a warning letter to Dr. Mercola for “Unapproved and misbranded products related to COVID-19.”
Not only did Dr. Mercola rebut the letter, but he also co-authored a peer-reviewed paper alongside Dr. William Grant, PhD, and Dr. Carol Wagner establishing a “clear link” between vitamin D deficiency and severe cases of the Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19).
“With that, I have established my medical and scientific merit, and will continue to express my professional opinions, based on the available science, and defend my freedom of speech as the U.S. Constitution provides for,” Dr. Mercola says.
“The FDA’s warning letter highlights statements in articles on my website that are fully referenced and supported by published science. I am committed to providing truthful information, for free, to anyone that wants it, and I’m all for having a rigorous scientific debate when necessary. CSPI has taken credit for pressuring the FDA to issue this warning letter to suppress free speech. The FDA’s warning letter is simply another attempt by CSPI to smear me with false accusations.”
We encourage you to read the full account from Dr. Mercola of everything that happened to him at this link:
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/03/15/fda-warns-dr-mercola-to-stop-writing-about-vitamin-d.aspx
You can also keep up with the latest news about Wuhan coronavirus (Covid-19) persecution at Pandemic.news
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-04-06-fda-orders-mercola-stop-writing-benefits-vitamin-d.html
More Natural News at:
https://www.naturalnews.com/all-posts
FDA warns against ivermectin to treat covid as India uses it successfully for health care workers!
--------------------------------------------------
The withholding of known remedies is a crime of magnitude by government!
See what you've been missing?
NATURAL NEWS
4/7/2021 1:17:05 PM
Situation Update, April 7th: ALERT – The CDC will punish states that refuse vaccine passports – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 12:46:08 PM
BOMBSHELL: Bill Gates prepped his worshipers for plandemic of bio-terrorism originating as a “virus crossover” from monkeys and bats – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 12:45:22 PM
Red states moving to defend themselves against Biden’s Second Amendment onslaught: Arizona Senate passes firearms freedom bill – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 12:44:36 PM
MLB has no problem playing games in Cuba and training in communist China, but Georgia is now the “human rights” problem – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 12:43:51 PM
Yahoo News issues public endorsement for Satanism? – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 12:43:16 PM
Fake news THOUGHT POLICE trying to ban and censor everyone who is opposed to a Communist Amerika – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 11:21:56 AM
Oxford suspends trial of AstraZeneca vaccine on children amid fears of its link to deadly blood clots – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 11:20:31 AM
Poll finds majority of Americans support voter IDs despite Democrats saying otherwise – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 11:19:38 AM
Business groups oppose Joe Biden’s “dangerously misguided” plan to pay for $2.3 trillion infrastructure bill by raising taxes – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:37:39 AM
Gov. Abbott declares no government-mandated “vaccine passports” in Texas – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:35:44 AM
ABC News endorses Satanism? Says twerking with the devil is “beautiful and inspiring”? – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:34:06 AM
Pension funds are buying up entire neighborhoods of single family homes, contributing to America’s housing crisis – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:28:11 AM
29 million AstraZeneca vaccine doses found in Italian factory amid supply problems – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:25:39 AM
Texas teen develops Guillain-Barre syndrome weeks after receiving first coronavirus vaccine dose – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:24:43 AM
South Koreans without vaccine passports will not be able to go to work and enter stores – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:23:38 AM
Portland police LEAVING in droves, exit interviews detail stories of being overworked, unappreciated by the community and ignored by city officials – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:21:46 AM
Ex-CIA director believes aliens may exist after a friend’s aircraft “stopped” mid-air – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:14:57 AM
A cowed republic is a dead republic: Forced vaccination compliance goes completely against the ‘my body my choice’ argument Democrats use for abortion – NaturalNews.com
4/7/2021 4:13:23 AM
Nolte: How the ’60 Minutes’ hit on Ron DeSantis collapsed into a steaming pile of fake news – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 11:15:28 PM
Magic Kingdom of TYRANNY: Disney now ARRESTING its own guests who refuse covid temperature checks – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 11:14:25 PM
60 Minutes is fake news garbage that was caught fabricating “pay for play” narrative against Florida’s DeSantis – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 11:13:37 PM
Feds raid Beverly Hills private mailbox business, force customers to prove who they are to get their property back – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 10:55:14 PM
South Carolina House lawmakers call on governor to ban coronavirus vaccine passports – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 10:54:59 PM
Keep up the Delta Airlines boycott – Delta cancels over 100 flights on Sunday, but cites “staff shortages” – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 10:54:11 PM
Maybe Coke should be cancelled for its Nazi past – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 9:04:18 PM
Facebook arrogantly FACT CHECKED a woman’s death, refuting her self-reported vaccine injuries – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 8:42:20 PM
Researchers explore the antimalarial properties of a little-known South American plant – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 8:41:53 PM
Post-vaccine strain? Michigan reports first confirmed case linked to Brazilian P1 coronavirus variant – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 8:39:03 PM
Immense hydrocarbon cycle discovered in the world’s oceans – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 8:38:51 PM
Exercising regularly is key to reversing Type 2 diabetes – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 8:13:28 PM
MLB boycotted Georgia a day after expanding China deal – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 8:00:19 PM
GOP establishment is silent after the financial blacklisting of Laura Loomer, even though THEY could be next – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 7:50:18 PM
Mass media lies: From outright fake news, to declaring ‘fairness is overrated’ to ‘doggy doo’ reporting, the MSM racing each other to find rock bottom – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 7:32:26 PM
The FBI is now mainly a weapon against Republicans – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 3:33:39 PM
Situation Update, April 6th: The vaccinated will DIE; the unvaccinated will be HUNTED – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 1:39:36 PM
FDA orders Dr. Mercola to stop writing about health benefits of vitamin D… because knowledge is the enemy of every totalitarian regime – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 1:38:45 PM
Over 100 fully vaccinated people in Washington state have contracted covid, showing yet again that the vaccines don’t prevent infection – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 1:38:11 PM
The MASSIVE Social Distancing Mistake – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 1:37:19 PM
IDIOCRACY: Biden’s massive new spending plan will spend $20 billion DISMANTLING roads and highways that are deemed “racist” – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 1:36:53 PM
Preservative in thousands of children’s food products found to damage immune system – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 12:54:13 PM
Florida governor bans vaccine passports, as they create TWO CLASSES of citizens – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 12:52:57 PM
Texas Senate passes bill protecting users from Big Tech political censorship – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 12:50:58 PM
London police break up Good Friday mass for supposedly violating coronavirus regulations – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:38:39 AM
ACLU caught sharing sensitive donor information with Facebook, Google – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:37:38 AM
BUSTED: Pete Buttigieg caught pretending to ride bike to work – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:35:50 AM
Merriam-Webster dictionary now says that not being racist is still “racist” – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:28:15 AM
Vaccine expert calls on WHO to immediately halt all coronavirus mass vaccinations – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:25:24 AM
Immunity to the coronavirus lasts at least 8 months after infection, study says – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:23:45 AM
CDC: Heart disease and cancer remain the leading causes of US deaths despite the coronavirus pandemic – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:22:47 AM
Russia warns of anti-white aggression in the US – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:20:25 AM
National Weather Service predicts heavy floods not likely to occur in Mississippi Delta this spring – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:12:33 AM
Understanding the importance of the human endocannabinoid system for healthy aging – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:09:54 AM
Lycopene found to inhibit pathway involved in Helicobacter pylori-induced gastric cancer – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:01:52 AM
So MLB is fine with ball games in Cuba and training in China, but Georgia is the human rights problem – NaturalNews.com
4/6/2021 4:00:42 AM
Big Tech can make sure billions of people NEVER see dissenting opinions – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 10:45:46 PM
Fascist left-wing tyrant Dr. Leana Wen says on CNN that “freedom” should be withheld from the American people until they surrender to being vaccinated – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 10:45:01 PM
These corporations need to be boycotted for supporting election fraud – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 10:44:33 PM
Texas moves to ban highly controversial “Critical Race Theory” which teaches that all white people are racist bigots and supremacists – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 9:00:00 PM
Coronavirus jabs continue killing people as homicidal governments dishonestly claim they are “safe and effective” – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 8:56:11 PM
Face masks are laced with cancer-causing toxic chemicals – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 8:50:06 PM
Health benefits and conditions improved by supplementing with CoQ10 – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 8:44:05 PM
Thousands forced to evacuate as Australia sees worst flood in decades – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 8:30:22 PM
America’s first 3D-printed neighborhood to be built in California – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 8:26:25 PM
6 Things to expect when you start a small-scale homestead – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 8:03:10 PM
The rabid left comes for Obama – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 7:39:19 PM
The new normal “reality” police – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 7:27:37 PM
The Feds’ bogus violent extremists – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:31:12 PM
WEF globalist Klaus Schwab declares unvaccinated people to be a threat to humanity – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:30:34 PM
Fauci is a dangerous sociopath who must be held accountable for committing crimes against humanity – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:29:56 PM
U.S. media quotes CHICOM-linked consultant to “debunk” former CDC chief Robert Redfield over claims COVID escaped from Wuhan lab – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:28:49 PM
Massive U.S. food shortage coming – get a backup supply ready RIGHT NOW – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:26:49 PM
USA Today pushing for ban on sale of “tactical gear” to civilians with highly slanted piece that only mentions right-leaning groups, not armed leftist anarchists – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:26:22 PM
SENILE CHINA JOE: Biden brags to the whole world that he “came to the United States Senate 120 years ago” – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:23:20 PM
Fake news corporate media is COLLAPSING, while its failed “journalists” blame independent media for gaining audience – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:56:56 AM
Governments gearing up for global vaccine passport implementation as vaxxed sheeple gladly submit to medical tyranny – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:55:33 AM
China gaining reputation as global dumping ground for Frankenstein-style experiments – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:54:56 AM
Scientists urge US to fund geoengineering research while admitting climate intervention is “dumb and risky” – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:53:45 AM
Cancer-causing chemical found in hand sanitizers made during the pandemic – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:53:13 AM
Insurers say death from coronavirus vaccination will not impact life insurance payouts – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:52:40 AM
Global efforts to reduce carbon emissions boosts demand for platinum in car industry – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:52:12 AM
Circuit Judge Laurence Silberman calls for libel laws to be revised – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:51:51 AM
Pelosi’s Capitol Police bill gaslights America – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 11:51:13 AM
Why is everyone in Texas not dying? – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:27:21 AM
NY Senate just passed a concentration camp bill to forcibly throw people in camps (just like the Nazis did in World War II) – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:26:08 AM
GET OUTSIDE: Sunlight inactivates Wuhan coronavirus 8 times faster than previously predicted, researchers found – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:25:33 AM
Twenty-three travelers in Washington state being monitored for possible Ebola infection – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:25:06 AM
Company that helps Johnson & Johnson produce coronavirus vaccines has a string of citations for quality control problems – NaturalNews.com
4/5/2021 12:24:32 AM
Critics slam Biden administration’s vaccine passport plan for being “un-American” – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:03:14 PM
CHILD TORTURE PAYS: Planned Parenthood now in the business of chemically castrating adolescents and neutering male children – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:02:34 PM
PEAK STUPID? “Woke” CNN now argues there’s no way to determine a baby’s sex at birth – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:01:35 PM
Amazon ran online army of paid propagandists to boost reputation Jeff Bezos and company – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:00:54 PM
WATCH OUT – It’s a trick! Telling Americans they can “mask off” once vaccinated is a form of coercion designed to give governments CONTROL over your health – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:00:23 PM
James Rickards warns that Bitcoin and Tether cryptocurrencies are a massive, illegal fraud that will catastrophically collapse – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 11:59:56 AM
On a NICOTINE BINGE? Welcome to the beginning of the end – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 11:59:39 AM
EMP survival: 4 Ways to protect your home from an EMP attack – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:19:32 AM
CDC extends ban on tenant evictions until June 30, once again asserting tyrannical control over private rental contracts – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:18:44 AM
Solar “superflare” could hit Earth within the next 100 years, researchers suggest – NaturalNews.com
4/4/2021 12:18:23 AM
Lockdown-defiant gym owner in NJ now offering memberships for NON-vaccinated people! – NaturalNews.com
Now see what you've been missing! https://censored.news/NaturalNews.htm
See even MORE of what you've been missing! CENSORED.news
Correction...
I will add a word Mike Adams left out of his own piece's headline:
OPINION:
The CDC will punish states that refuse vaccine passports
Top Conservative News Aggregators
Whatfinger.com
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Honorable Mentions
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Yet More Good Resources:
PreppersDailyNews.com
CitizenFreePress.com
WorldNetDaily.com
GUN GRABBING BEGINS — Biden To Announce Executive Action On Guns Thursday
https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/gun-grabbing-begins-biden-to-announce-executive-action-on-guns-thursday-plans-to-outlaw-ghost-guns
Gun Owners Of America "The ONLY no-compromise gun lobby in Washington" https://www.gunowners.org
Top Conservative News Sites To Read In 2021
Redstate.com
DailyWire.com
Reason.com
WashingtonTimes.com
TheConservativeTreehouse.com
Spectator.org
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MRC.org
NYPost.com
OANN.com
DailyCaller.com
AmericanThinker.com
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JudicialWatch.org
TheGatewayPundit.com
LibertyNation.com
Breitbart.com
TheFederalist.com
Direct 'Go To' links for all of the above at...
https://www.libertynation.com/top-conservative-news-sites
Satanic Prayer on Hating White People Included in New "Prayer Book" Being Sold at Target
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/satanic-prayer-hating-white-white-people-included-new-prayer-book-sold-target-video/
At 10:01 AM :
What are the chances that that book is on X's coffee table with a ready stash of extra copies for handing out to others to follow his leader the devil too?
Because Mr Progressive X is quite aggressive in his hating..
https://thenationalpulse.com/analysis/on-day-71-abortion-advocate-joe-biden-says-vaccination-is-the-godly-thing-to-do/
Says pro-death, anti-jobs, anti-freedom, President Puppet.
Generally, I am not a big fan of Ann Coulter, but in this particular article, she nails it:
Derek Chauvin, Human Sacrifice
https://anncoulter.com/2021/03/31/derek-chauvin-human-sacrifice/
PS: The evidence is overwhelming. Derek Chauvin did not "murder," or, "cause the death" of George Floyd. Chauvin and the other officers on the scene were ALL following the protocols of the Minn. Police Department, and that has been established by the witnesses that were called by the Prosecution. Also, one of the known side effects of Fentanyl abuse is a "racing heart" along with an "inability to breathe." According to the Official Autopsy/Toxicology Report, Floyd, a longtime drug abuser, had 11 ng/mL of Fentanyl in his body, which computes to more than 3X the amount that is considered to be normally lethal (i.e. 3 ng/mL).
Although the media has already tried and convicted Chauvin, this trial is a complete farce. So we're left with this; if Chauvin is rightfully acquitted, innocent people will lose their life and billions of dollars worth of property damage will result. This same scenario could happen as well if Chauvin is "convicted" of a lesser charge, such as "manslaughter." Either way, the monsters in the media has set this up for a chaotic situation that will no doubt cost the lives of innocent people.
Ray B,
You still haven't answered Craig's latest post to you. The empty shell of intellectual cowardice is all that is left of your strawmen.
Is Derek Chauvin really the guy MAGA wants to defend as being unfairly prosecuted? You really want to spin logic and justice into knots to defend a guy caught on camera intentionally murdering a civilian? Can't you see you're being fed MAGA white victimhood (i.e. - that "they" are unfairly prosecuting your white [ayrian] "brother")?
Under the law, you take the victim as you find him. Floyd's drug use and its potential co-morbidity COD doesn't exculpate Chauvin. [I can only imagine a world where cops kill civilians and then, instead of dropping an unregistered gun on them...they inject them with Fentanyl]
I'm not watching the trial. God will take care of justice one way or another. I do pray Chauvin is convicted in this world because I've watched the video of him intentionally killing a man. The man had troubles and behaved in a manner neither I or anyone I know would behave but that doesn't let Chauvin, a trained professional police officer off the hook for going beyond the badge with his behavior and being held accountable for such. Just as all criminals, including liberal criminals, should answer for their crimes.
It's notable that Hennepin County is the same county that held a Somali American black officer (Mohammed Noor) guilty for shooting a white Australian woman even though he claimed self-defense. Were you or Ann Coulter out there defending Officer Mohammed Noor? Chauvin's acquittal would be further evidence that had Noor been white or Noor victims non-white, Noor probably doesn't even stand trial and/or get convicted. https://theintercept.com/2019/05/02/minnesota-police-convicted-justine-damond/
Edit to add: Ann Coulter did have an opinion on Noor. What a horrible ungodly woman. No virtue-signaling defending the policeman in this piece.
https://www.app.com/story/opinion/columnists/2017/07/27/australian-women-shot-somali-cop/104046442/
As Christians, we do not ascribe to critical race theory and are supposed to believe all mankind is made in the image of God and share a common lineage back to Adam and Eve. Assuming such, how do you watch that video and still justify defending Derek Chauvin? He killed one of God's children and should be held accountable, no? Floyd could have been anyone, your child, someone from your church or an Australian white woman....."JUSTICE" should be blind to such, should it not? The outcome will be what it will be -- why make Jesus look bad by defending a monster?
If Floyd was supposed to die from a drug overdose that day, then that's how he should have died, NOT laying in a gutter with an officer exacerbating/hastening such with his knee dug into his neck for X minutes.
"Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy." Proverb 31:8-9 ESV
I'm noticing someone not about actual justice going off on the topic. This whole thing is not decided yet, the whole story is not out just yet, admits not even watching the trial, so how does this person know if justice will be served or not?...because Bible quoting 2:52 PM has already made up it's mind answering a matter before it's concluded which goes against another scripture in Proverbs 18:13.
That's the tip off.
The 2:52 post reeks.
God shows no partiality..also in scripture, another reason 2:52 PM is not really into justice.
Yeah.
And 2:52 PM also stretches things to the moon and back to attempt to blame Trump.
Sounds like hating to me too.
The tyranny is spreading: Militarized Minneapolis setup for Chauvin trial looks like D.C., which is no longer accessible to the people
https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-03-23-militarized-collapse-under-left-wing-democrat-tyranny.html
George Floyd articles
White supremacy is the root of all race-related violence in the US
https://theconversation.com/white-supremacy-is-the-root-of-all-race-related-violence-in-the-us-157566
x
p.s.- I think it has more to do with sin and turning from God but thought this might be a good perspective for my Christian friends here to review as they consider their relationship with MAGA political theology, white nationalism and all the new age participants therein.
These people are not patriotic Americans. They hate America more than any 20 year "libtard" who complains about how the historical policies of "manifest destiny" mistreated millions of native Americans over a hundred years ago. I think RayB even linked an article from the Claremont Institute recently?
The Radical Theology That Could Make Religious Freedom a Thing of the Past:Even devout Christians should fear these influential leaders' refusal to separate church and state.
https://www.texasobserver.org/dominion-theology/
“Conservatism” is no Longer Enough:All hands on deck as we enter the counter-revolutionary moment.
https://americanmind.org/salvo/why-the-claremont-institute-is-not-conservative-and-you-shouldnt-be-either/
"THE WEBS CONNECTING 'TRADITIONALIST' CATHOLICS AND WHITE NATIONALISTS"
https://sojo.net/articles/webs-connecting-traditionalist-catholics-and-white-nationalists
THE RISE OF THE CATHOLIC RIGHT:How right-wing billionaires are attempting a hostile takeover of the U.S. Catholic Church.
https://sojo.net/magazine/march-2019/rise-catholic-right
X
Hating on Catholics again aren't you, x..
Caucasians, Bible believing Christians, Trump supporters (they are of many denominations, colors and creeds), so the list of people you hate is long. You obviously hate the unborn and innocents or you would decry the policies of the current administration which is ramping it up against everything fair, right, and decent. That makes you an equal opportunity hater.
That's a lot of hate inside you. Over the top rhetoric and hyperbole, absolute fabrications, dubious, extremely biased, sources, and one-size-fits-all labels are detailing your foolishness, and lack of decent humanity.
Why do you cast so much bitter and caustic dispersion on others?
Your prayers go unheard as long as you are guilty of hate.
If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me. Psalm 66:18
The lack of grace in you is astounding.
x = De Facto Democratic Party Operative + Wolf In Sheep's Clothing Modus Operandi + Antipathetical Paranoid Delusions About Alternative Media & Opus Dei, Etc. + Obsessive compulsion to try to tarnish Trump one way or another + Race-Baiting Troll
TROLL
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts flame wars or intentionally upsets people on the Internet. This is typically done by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog), with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion. This is typically for the troll's amusement, or to achieve a specific result such as disrupting a rival's online activities or manipulating a political process.
"I am not a troll." -X
"I am not a crook." -Richard Nixon
"I am not a crack." -San Andreas
RayB,
You are still COWARDLY ignoring Craig's replies (9:35AM / 10:21AM) to you.
Why don't you just admit you are wrong?
Craig said...
RayB,
As regards the “perfect”, one must interpret this in a way that makes sense of the entire passage (chapter 13 in its larger context of 12 and 14). The interpretation hinges on how it fits with the “face to face” and “know as I am known” of verse 12. If, like MacArthur, one wishes to interpret the “perfect” as the closing of the canon, then one would simultaneously believe that the Bible allows us to see “face to face” and “know as I am known”.
What I see is that many eisegete (read into) this passage through the lens of their cessationism. It’s somewhat understandable, given the large amount of false charismaticism. It’s a way to quell it. But it’s not intellectually honest.
As regards Calvin, he is obviously of two minds. He clearly identifies the “perfect” in his 1Corinthians commentary. He apparently changed his mind at some point, with one writing differing from the other (the commentary vs. “Institutes”). This is not all that unusual—a situation in which an extant writing of a particular individual contradicts another. People change their minds. But, again, he is quite clear in his commentary on the “perfect”.
As for the ‘cognitive dissonance’, I’m not being nasty or condescending in this regard, as it seems you are taking it. Looking at your posts on this current subject, you have quite often mischaracterized my writings, even after I’ve clarified. There are only two possibilities I can think of: either you are doing it purposefully for whatever the reason, or you are experiencing some sort of cognitive dissonance, some sort of misunderstanding. The latter is not necessarily negative—as I point out in the article, EVERYONE experiences it at times. It’s sort of like the Dunning-Kruger effect (when properly understood): many people fall victim to it, whether of lower, middle or higher intelligence levels. I’ve certainly fallen victim to each of these at various times.
For an example of why I wondered this about you, I provide the following: You wrote:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1
In contrast to this warning from Scripture, Craig asks us to "believe" his admitted "hearsay" spirit that performed the "tongues-speaking" miracle that he wrote about.
This is a mischaracterization. I gave an account provided firsthand to me by someone I know. There was even an interpreter present. And the interpreter verified the message. This fits the Biblical practice. The only reason it’s “hearsay” is that I didn’t personally witness it. But, how is that different than any other account one might read online? Unless there is video ‘evidence’, anyone can categorically reject the veracity of any of it.
In any case, the question you must answer is this: Does the Bible support cessationism? If so, there’s no need to even bother with this or that account of charismaticism, for they’d all be false. But if the Bible is either: (a) silent on the matter or, (b) actually supports continuationism, then each and every account must be measured against the Scriptures. For these reasons, I think it would behoove you to do an in-depth study on the “perfect” in 1Cor 13:8-12, within its larger context of chapters 12 and 14.
9:35 PM
RayB,
And this one.
Craig said...
RayB,
The GotQuestions.org site is generally pretty good, but not without fault and bias. To their credit, though, they admit their bias (in this case) here:
As a preface to this article:
What is continuationism?
…the editors write this:
“Please note, as a ministry, GotQuestions.org is not in agreement with continuationism. The article below is written by someone who holds to continuationism. We thought it would be worthwhile to have an article that positively presents continuationism, as it is always good for our viewpoints to be challenged, motivating us to further search the Scriptures to make sure our beliefs are biblically sound.”
And, look at what the (guest) author writes (bold mine):
Cessationists often cite 1 Corinthians 13:8–10 to support the idea that some gifts ceased when “the perfect” came. Some believe that the “perfect” refers to the completion of the Bible. This position holds that once the Bible was in completed form there was no longer any need for miraculous works of the Holy Spirit through believers. However, verse 12 clarifies the identity of that “perfect”: “For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” Since we cannot see the Bible face to face, nor can it “know” us, continuationists consider this passage a reference to the second coming of Jesus. At that time there will be no need for the Holy Spirit’s gifts, including the gift of knowledge (verse 8), as we will be in the physical presence of Jesus Himself.
---
To illustrate how it is not without fault, the following article shows a fundamental misunderstanding of grammatical gender, confusing it with personal gender. The Holy Spirit is a ‘Person’ because of the manner in which the Spirit is presented in Scripture, regardless of the fact that the Greek word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is neuter in grammatical gender. That said, a large portion of the second paragraph in the link below is wrong:
Is the Holy Spirit a person?
… First, every pronoun used in reference to the Spirit is “he” not “it.” The original Greek language of the New Testament is explicit in confirming the person of the Holy Spirit. The word for “Spirit” (pneuma) is neuter and would naturally take neuter pronouns to have grammatical agreement. Yet, in many cases, masculine pronouns are found (e.g., John 15:26; 16:13-14). Grammatically, there is no other way to understand the pronouns of the New Testament related to the Holy Spirit—He is referred to as a “He,” as a person.
Masculine pronouns are found in those verses cited because they refer to “paraclete” (not pneuma), a noun masculine in grammatical gender. But in other verses throughout Scripture, if we were to translate per grammatical gender, we would use “it”; however, that would sound odd in English, making the Spirit sound like an impersonal thing. In short, the article is wrong here.
10:21 PM
Going to work in my yard ... will be back later.
I fully expect to see RayB posting his answers to the questions above. (wink, wink)
In fact I think that we ALL fully expect to see RayB posting his replies to the points made by Craig above. (wink, wink)
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