News and views of Constance Cumbey concerning "Radical Middle", New Age Movement, Communitarianism, "planetary humanism," "global governance," European Union, Javier Solana, Jeremy Rifkin, "New Age Politics," law in the USA, combined with life in general -- sometimes humorous, sometimes not!
Tuesday, September 25, 2012
PLEASE WATCH THIS: REV. E. W. JACKSON!!!
Please, please watch this amazing Press Club delivery by the Rev. E. W. Jackson!
No they didn't actually fly. That was a false impression they had due to some psychoactive drugs they were using and probably bounded some using poles. Also bilocation is likely. Some very strange experiences were had by people who tested belladonna.
The demon per se is a spirit, the effects, the residuum, the growing ickyness and especially if it be from a not directly demon but human source, the interface between spirit and matter, that is the point I am talking about.
Eventually I had to get the house I was living in blessed two or three times by an Orthodox priest. This made a big difference.
The witches at issue were not always mere social pariahs. I have read a lot during the days of my teens when I wanted to practice this stuff, though I didn't want to sell my soul or strike bargains like that, and I have read the Malleus Maleficarum.
Modern witches, well, what were you dealing with? wicca? traditional witchcraft? what?
When the medieval accusations strongly parallel actual beliefs and practices in East Anglia and the Ozarks, obviously it is a case of where there is smoke there is fire.
A Spanish Inquisition judge got some of the flying ointment and smeared it on a dog. dog didn't go anywhere. judge concluded something was wrong with the usual picture painted.
The canon episcopi denounced the belief in the reality of such escapades as a heresy.
But going to meetings and engaging in specific acts to cause harm or other things and keeping demon familiars, and so forth? and some bilocation activity thought to be physical under the influence of drugs? yes.
Transformation? did any of the witches you dealt with speak of the socalled "fetch?"
Again, an astral extension or a bilocation with transformation in the astral body not the physical.
Some people could probably be such strong telepathic senders that they could create an illusion of change to the physical eyes of the viewer.
I doubt the physical body ever did any changing, or not much.
there is no contradiction in what I said. Yes, probably many BUT NOT ALL were innocent. torture got some details and more names. But the reasons people were arrested aside from being named, were for stuff that would get anyone into spiritual warfare to sit up and take notice now.
a ludicrous note, some modern witch got mad at someone and turned him into a frog, or so the spell was supposed to do.
the target didn't visibly turn into a frog, but he spent two or three weeks hopping about and croaking. Seems it had quite an impact on his mind.
Perhaps in a less Christian influence soaked geographic environment, some illusion of physical change would have occurred as well. The early church dealt with some such incidents and concluded the physical change was an illusion, not a reality.
"The witches at issue were not always mere social pariahs."
You say it. Now prove it.
"I have read a lot during the days of my teens when I wanted to practice this stuff, though I didn't want to sell my soul or strike bargains like that, and I have read the Malleus Maleficarum."
And it's nonsense, isn't it? All I know has come from repented witches and other occultists who are now Christians, and what they got up to is nothing like the MM which was clearly written by medieval men who had prior conceptions and wild torture confessions before them.
"Modern witches, well, what were you dealing with? wicca? traditional witchcraft? what?"
Various. Including in London, USA and South Africa.
"When the medieval accusations strongly parallel actual beliefs and practices in East Anglia and the Ozarks, obviously it is a case of where there is smoke there is fire."
Seven out of the last eight posts are from you Christine. All have nothing to do with the New Age movement. From your previous posts it's obvious you know little, if nothing, about the New Age movement. On another note, has anyone followed up on their own on what John Rupp and another anonymous poster wrote about the New Age meeting? Can you share what you've found? I have some things I would like to post, but unless there are more people knowledgeable about the movement, sharing what I've found is rather a waste of time. Serious posting takes effort. That's why.
get specific - torture of toads to get the toad bone. various folk magic practices - I do not want to turn this post into a grimoire for everyone. sexual practices in initiations. cross roads locations. concepts that add up to invocations of or offers to the devil. some rather specific. dumb supper which on at least one occasion caused a man great trauma, and years later when he met the woman who had done the dumb supper and acquired some object from the man who was dragged in (forced astral projection) and he recognized it, he said "you are the witch who did that to me, I walked through hell that night" and stabbed her. This was in the Ozarks.
the fetch - you did not answer me as to whether this was mentioned by your repentant ex witches. Witchcraft is two things, a false religion (which dominates in the modern scene) and a technology some of which is directly dependent on demonic involvement.
No Christine, they did not mention the Fetch to me. But if I wanted to learn about witchcraft - which I don't - then, based on what you have written on this blog, I would go to them rather than to you.
Why don't you put more of your writing on your own blog and less here?
sending the fetch - it is a kind of mental projection or outright bilocation. Most modern witches don't even know about this stuff that much. This is the source of the idea of witches becoming cats or rats or whatever. Either such a person riding on one, seeing through their eyes and maybe being noticed by a sensitive, or out and about in that form, but not a physical transformation, but might be visible in some cases.
I put a lot of stuff on my blog. some things I think are not a good idea to go into in depth.
I have at least two embedded Constance Cumbey videos there. What you will get from modern witches is only a little bit relevant to the traditional scene, which often scoffs at wiccans as "fluff bunnies," and work at redefining the do as you will so long as it harm none "rede" to eliminate the no harm, either outright or by redefining harm out of existence.
if you want to learn more, go lurk on some yahoo egroups.
that doesn't mean modern wicca isn't a conveyorbelt to and ennabler for the devil, but that the medieval stuff was closer to overt devil worship, and real. Also, the medieval witches often had high class connections and participants, and political agendas. Look for a book by skeptic but historian Kittredge on the subject, Witchcraft in Old and New England. you would be surprised.
Even now, the illuminai Bohemian Grove and New World Order elites are into devil worship some of them, and have occultism agendas back of their political games, which by the way are not limited to stuff on the left. They control left and right and play us for fools (the so called third position fascism is just another of theirs also). In the US alone, there are networks overlapping interests in the occult, pedophilia, and politics that run from thugs to elected and appointed officials even at the federal level, some police and judges and so forth. One of the guys with the ATF who insisted on continuing the raid at Waco, after the cover was blown (probably a deliberate leak) and thus guaranteed the conflagration, was recognized by someone I know as having been at a human sacrifice even that person I know had attended, years ago.
Christine, it is important that you admit you were wrong when you claimed that Ecclesiastes talks about or alludes to chakras. You even specified verses (16, 17, 18)which do not exist in Ecclesiastes Chapter 12, which has only 14 verses.
Can you admit this Christine or I must ask you to examine yourself regards spiritual pride.
It is a shame that you have chosen to continue to lean on your own understanding and gnosis.
Meddling with the powers that lyingly pertain to chakras (there's no such thing as chakras) is witchcraft. You need to turn away from all beliefs which do not edify you and are contrary to Christianity. I say this for your soul's sake.
Listen to other Christians, do not push them into having to treat you as a heathen and therefore have nothing to do with you.
Christine, you asked me if my repented ex-occultist acquaintances had told me about the Fetch. I said No, and that I didn't want to learn more about witchcraft than I already knew. You then blurted out your knowledge of the Fetch - knowledge which my acquaintances might know but not have shared with me, and which I also find I could readily have got via Google. I suspect you were driven to blurt by a need to show your knowledge to readers of this blog. Do you post so copiously here because you are driven by a need to interact, which you would not get on your own blog?
IF people really can do remote viewing, perhaps through the eyes of animals, then it is intrinsically a demonic phenomenon. Humans simply cannot do that in their own strength. On what grounds are you so confident it can be done? I recall that you once claimed here that that you could develop the capacity to have conversations with animals. But it's not you that would need to develop that capacity, it's the animal - and it can't, because its much simpler brain is not wired for speech and the concepts conveyed in verbal conversation. These are some of the things that comprise the image of God in us but not in animals.
Hello Anon 5:50 PM, you wrote: "IF people really can do remote viewing, perhaps through the eyes of animals, then it is intrinsically a demonic phenomenon."
Hello Anon 5:50 PM, you wrote: "IF people really can do remote viewing, perhaps through the eyes of animals, then it is intrinsically a demonic phenomenon."
No Christine. I'm not taking the bait. In the past you linked to several very superficial sites about the New Age movement. If you knew, you wouldn't have to link. You would write as fluidly about the New Age movement as you try to write about the occult. In fact, you know little about the occult except for strange bits and pieces about practices. The occult part of New Age is probably be way over your head. For example, Solana's mother was into the occult. I doubt if she was swinging cats around and looking through their eyes. Constance now lets anyone post here what they want to. That doesn't mean what is written has anything to do with the New Age movement.
The last paragraph in your post at 5:12 is so much like what is found at crazy conspiracy sites that are meant to pretend knowledge of scary things. Is there some reason we should trust what you write as if you know what you are talking about? Are you some kind of authority on factual instances of occult behavior? You read crazy things and then carry them over to here like a cat carries a dead mouse trying to please an owner.
Do I want you to stop posting? Of course not. You are comical material for those who are intelligent. We all need a good laugh at times.
i was going from memory wrong move, It is Eccles. 12: 6, 7, 8 should not have had those extra 1 in there.
"Or ever the silver cord be loosed or the golden bowl be broken or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern,
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it."
The Septuagint refers to the wheels running together, which might indicate that a great confusion of the chakras or perhaps an initial hyperactivity goes on at death. Both would be a bad mark on the kundalini practices, which frankly strike me as a labor intensive style of suicide.
I repeatedly stated the reason for bringing up the fetch, that the average wiccan you might meet often does not have the knowledge or terms in earlier use, yet thinks they are the legitimate ancient tradition. The more legitimate is in fact the dark side stuff.
Studying chemistry won't tell you much about the occult or paranormal, unless you were in a very strange school indeed.
However, almost invariably, the chemicals and herbs and oils that are reputed to repel entities and break up influences, are also antimicrobial, and/or antifungal and/or insecticidal. Which tells me, that when something is operating in a beginning quasi physical form, it has something in common with those life forms if it (in its physical format) is susceptible to chemicals that kill such. Of course the spirit being itself is unaffected, but its ground of operation is affected.
Up to a point. Holy Water is better usually, but that can take a soak down sometimes that is bad for some papers and ink and so forth, and may not last as long. There is also more of the other stuff around and less Holy Water, so I like to not waste the latter.
I NOTICE SOMEONE, LIKE ALWAYS, WHENEVER CLAIMING I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE NEW AGE, HAS NOT ANSWERED MY CHALLENGE TO TELL ME WHAT IT IS.
Frank, it appears you haven't followed the blog since the beginning. Constance in the past was very discriminating about the use of her blog. She would challenge posters who were off topic. She would keep up to date with information. Over the years things have changed. She has gotten older and is probably tired of the battle. Her time is more valuable when spent on her legal practice. Yet, she wants to keep her hand in, keeping her reputation intact as a valuable researcher. Example: she said she was writing a book about Solana in 1995. That was 15 years ago and information about Solana is no longer as important as it once was. She said she is writing a new book now.
The fact is the more one knows about New Age, the harder it is to present the information in a way that the average person can understand it. The harder it will be to summarize all of the details, past and present. She will not be writing just for those who have followed the movement all of these years.
Maybe she should just be writing for an audience of people like you Frank. Tell everyone to skip all of the information about the New Age movement and follow a particular Christian group. That sure would make you happy Frank.
Frank, it appears you haven't followed the blog since the beginning. Constance in the past was very discriminating about the use of her blog. She would challenge posters who were off topic. She would keep up to date with information. Over the years things have changed. She has gotten older and is probably tired of the battle. Her time is more valuable when spent on her legal practice. Yet, she wants to keep her hand in, keeping her reputation intact as a valuable researcher. Example: she said she was writing a book about Solana in 1995. That was 15 years ago and information about Solana is no longer as important as it once was. She said she is writing a new book now.
The fact is the more one knows about New Age, the harder it is to present the information in a way that the average person can understand it. The harder it will be to summarize all of the details, past and present. She will not be writing just for those who have followed the movement all of these years.
Maybe she should just be writing for an audience of people like you Frank. Tell everyone to skip all of the information about the New Age movement and follow a particular Christian group. That sure would make you happy Frank.
And by the way, since she lets everyone, including you, post here what they want to post, I'm sure she will have no problem with my comments.
Christine, I trust my Christian ex-occultists a lot more than I trust your claims to know all about witchcraft and the occult. You have talked nonsense on so many other subjects here. PLEASE restrict yourself to New Age here and put your other stuff on your own blog. Then this would not, as was said here a few days ago, be like a dinner party at which one of the guests takes over every conversation.
As I said Christine, I'm not taking your bait. Those who know me understand what I know. I don't have to justify myself to someone who knows nothing about the New Age movement. Do the hard work of learning about the New Age movement from scratch on your own.
"The fact is the more one knows about New Age, the harder it is to present the information in a way that the average person can understand it."
Lol, I understand that, so no need for the patronizing tone from you.
No, we should not 'skip info about the New Age. We should also examine our reasons for posting information and not be duplicitous. One cannot truly stand against 'New Age' ideas and yet not renounce kabbalah-Zohar for instance. Yes I do have a Christian agenda, thank you for the compliment.
If you want a blog that follows the strict dictates of you, create one! Perhaps d th and y would figure strongly in the title of it, or maybe that should be blotted out and you could try something else instead.
Stop insulting the host of this blog and show some cordial etiquette!
Frank, that's your style alright. You insult rather than write in a civil manner. If you know so much about New Age, why don't you ever contribute something along those lines to the blog. If you are a Christian, you aren't like any I know who follow the commandments.
Nothing I wrote about Constance was insulting. We are all affected in some way by age. Nothing I wrote takes away from the research she has done in the past. Go over her posts in the last several years and you can see the change. I know she likes using the picture of a younger Constance, but if she wasn't a realistic person, calling the shots as she saw them, she could never have done the research she did.
Well at least I'm not hiding in the weeds. Over 30 years and you're still a coward... is that it?
My comments stand as they are and in the manner they are. If you don't like it, like I said create your own blog. Otherwise D, which I suppose you've written on your coned hat, SHUT UP!
cute evasion not willing to explain the New Age. I DID NOT ASK YOU TO INFORM ME AS IN TEACH ME, I ASKED YOU TO SHOW WHAT YOU KNOW, SHOW HOW YOU DEFINE IT,
and you ducked the challenge, so you are a FRAUD. I first encountered the accusation of knowing nothing about the New Age when I had just posted material classically relevant to it. I know a lot about it, and everything I have said about it fits Constance's writings and wikipedia and some others. the occult is a big part. politics is a big part. devil worship is a big part. nicey nice fake lovey dovey appeal to the more peaceful but self indulgent side of the flesh is a big part.
it is complex.
What I notice, is that over and over, whenever someone does the kind of research that Constance did, that person comes under intense attack. Dorothy's limited very very limited superficial kabbalism had no relevance to the value of her posted research, and was discovered some time AFTER the attacks on her began.
I think I just may use the collapse feature and ignore some of you people. I recall someone sneering about fighting Agenda 21. Yet that is a BIG part of the NWO side of the New Age game.
I think some people here are working for the NWO.
I always thought Solana was a red herring Constance fell for, but didn't bother to argue about it. Indeed, as time passed, he became less important, perhaps in part because of attention focussed on him that resulted in some political action here and there I don't know I don't follow EU politics.
However, I do think it is an odd coincidence, when extremely bad idea laws get a 666 tag on their serial number, like that thing Solana had to do with getting into EU law or policy or something.
you can read this for free at scribd.com or download for a fee. This writer invented the crystal therapy skubala, then got a revelation of the evil behind the veil of pretend love of the New Age, and turned Christian. for a while he made the same mistake I did of trying to see what could be retrieved out of his stuff to Christianity, but most if not all is a nonstarter. (noting what works against witchcraft and using it is another matter.)
Most likely murdered in Santa Fe, where he was lecturing against all this, and there is big money in this New Age stuff of the popular variety. Big money to lose if he was listened to too much. The car over the cliff left no skid marks, he was flung through the windshield but left no blood, so he was dead a while before he went through that windshield, and his briefcase was broken open.
The next thing he was going to work on was the demonic side of the UFO phenomenon, apparently, which thank God is already being revealed by some researchers.
to the person who thinks the medieval writers didn't know what they were talking about, though the MM is a bit silly at times, it is the modern witches and the purveyors of the myth of the burning times (as one article on this was titled) who do not know what they are talking about.
Wicca was invented as a whitewashed version to act as a conveyorbelt into darker stuff. Gardner was a friend of Crowley's as was Sybil Leek. Pettingill papers tell a lot of course it is poo pooed by the modern white light wicca crowd.
this google search page will give you a lot of information and also an article on Andrew Chumbley. That fellow and the Clan of Tubal Cain and the Anderson Feri crew are a lot closer to the real thing than the wiccans are.
http://www.pickingill.com/
the claim of pickingill meeting with nine groups 17 times a year and so forth may be bloated. the core of the material is consistent with the cunning man traditions.
The horse whisperers in England originally were a cult that sold their souls to the devil to get information on manipulating animals, most of which had nothing to do with the occult but with psychology and animal response to some smells, etc.
The Knights of the Golden Circle seem to have had some connection to this on the part of at least one of their founders, and they were instrumental in founding the KKK and in the Confederate drive in the first place, the golden circle referring to the imperialistic plan the Confederacy would have embarked on if they had won.
James Webb THE OCCULT ESTABLISHMENT and THE OCCULT UNDERGROUND detail occult connections to a lot of modern establishment stuff.
Occult government. Starts with examining Nazi Germany as a model to use to recognize similar things in governments today, then goes on to The Order aka Skull and Bones halfway down the page.
note regarding that article, it is excellent but it links to notions not so excellent. Always treat ANYTHING with discernment. Do not be simple minded, no one and nothing but The Bible can be treated as authoritative, incl. Christian writers. Always read with discernment. Many New Agers have gotten on the anti Illuminati anti NWO bandwagon, probably because they don't like increasing govt. controls that might interfere with their freewheeling self deified status. Some of them have excellent information, but they always promote their New Age pseudo spirituality as a solution. One of the best videos ever, connecting dots and drawing on laboratory tests of poisons being dumped on us and morgellon's disease and other things, ends with such "spirituality" garbage. As St. Paul said, test or prove or examine all things, hold fast what is good. Obviously what is not good is to be jettisoned, and this and the good to be kept can be in the same document. St. Paul quoted pagan writers a few times, when the bit in question was of use to The Gospel.
"to the person who thinks the medieval writers didn't know what they were talking about, though the MM is a bit silly at times, it is the modern witches and the purveyors of the myth of the burning times (as one article on this was titled) who do not know what they are talking about. Wicca was invented as a whitewashed version to act as a conveyorbelt into darker stuff."
Christine you are addressing me, although you have distorted what I said. I wrote that the author-inquisitors who wrote the Malleus Maleficarum didn't know what they were talking about (ie, witchcraft in their times) and I stand by that statement. Stop posing as a great expert, because compared to the people I have spoken extensively to, you know little. They PRACTISED witchcraft AND learned its history, and one is an expert on African witchcraft because he lived there.
Everybody knows that Satan ensnares people with milder occult practices and seeks to draw them deeper. True but hardly news.
"it is the modern witches and the purveyors of the myth of the burning times (as one article on this was titled) who do not know what they are talking about."
Nobody is saying that everybody who was burnt as a witch was innocent, 100%. But once accused you were invariably convicted, and if you denied it you were tortured until you either died or admitted it. The Inquisitors were mainly mendicants who lived off the proceeds of confiscation of their victims, which is hardly impartial procedure. These facts are well documented; see, for instance, Europe's Inner Demons by Norman Cohn. So who does not know what they are talking about?
Well congratulations Christine. You know more about witchcraft than most witches know. You claim to be a Christian, which is why I've tried and tried to give you the benefit of the doubt all this time. But you show no inclination to burn those books or repent of your own deep involvement with the occult. You say you've read the Bible more than once, but your comments reveal you to be an expert on magic and every form of satanic deception, and what you do know about the Bible always seems to get twisted into lies. The Lord rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ.
sedotma 43Christine, regarding your 12:42 comment - discernment is such a fudgy word with you. You put everything out on the table and tell readers to evaluate it. You know darn well that most people don't have enough background to do that. That leaves them to believe nonsense while putting you in some sort of catbird seat, able to tell people, "Well I didn't tell you to believe that" when they point out your comments are stupid.
More people are needed to show what you are up to. When will more people show up? When more people know what New Age is about.
Paul, you, like Frank, like to think you are channeling Jesus. That's what all of this speaking in Jesus' name is about. Because you are not struck by lightning you are sure you are right. Good luck.
No, Paul and I do not 'channel', and be careful in making sure you do not commit the unpardonable sin, Dorothy, it is you is it not! Paul and I have both committed our lives to Jesus Christ and, although we make mistakes through our own frailties,have surrendered our lives to the Him who is both Lord and Savior for ever and ever.
Will you deny once again this is you Dorothy, you sorceress, you friend to no-one, you whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones, you child of the viper hissing from the weeds again.
And Dorothy, if you dabble in Kabbalah , as even Christine implies at 9:04 PM ["Dorothy's limited very very limited superficial kabbalism"](let alone support it which you've definitely done on this blog before, which is damnable enough) then you are not of the ilk of those Jewish people who reject such things for you have given up your inheritance and are of the synagogue of Satan. One day you too will bow before the Lord Jesus Christ whether you like it or not Dorothy and declare Him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
You will also bow before Christians and Messianic Jews whom you have persecuted and will be made to apologize! (If you want Holy Scriptural references for what I'm saying, I'll give them to you.)
And Dorothy, if you dabble in Kabbalah , as even your sycophant Christine implies at 9:04 PM ["Dorothy's limited very very limited superficial kabbalism"](let alone support it which you've definitely done on this blog before, which is damnable enough) then you are not of the ilk of those Jewish people who reject such things for you have given up your inheritance and are of the synagogue of Satan. One day you too will bow before the Lord Jesus Christ whether you like it or not Dorothy and declare Him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
You will also bow before Christians and Messianic Jews whom you have persecuted and will be made to apologize! (If you want Holy Scriptural references for what I'm saying, I'll give them to you.)
Frank, if you believe that somebody called Dorothy is posting anonymously then why not just ask, courteously but explicitly, "Dear Anon@TIME, are you Dorothy?" The answer or perhaps lack thereof may tell you more than you can learn by writing angry words.
The style, the amount of venom how it's aimed, worded, and who it's aimed at, when analized even fleetingly, undeniably all fit the behavior of a certain anti-Christian poster.
The style, the amount of venom used, how it's aimed, worded, and who it's aimed at, when analyzed even fleetingly, undeniably all fit the behavior of a certain anti-Christian poster known for supporting the evil Kabbalah.
The style, the amount of venom used, how it's aimed, worded, and who it's aimed at, when analyzed even fleetingly, undeniably all fit the behavior of a certain anti-Christian poster known for supporting the evil Kabbalah.
May the Lord Jesus Christ convict and rebuke that poster.
I am an expert on the dark stuff because in the 1960s and less in the 1970s I studied for no good reason. I knew about Jesus and turned to Him or rather "God" meaning the God of Abraham not some impersonal brahman blur, when I got a scare. Later in 1977 I got baptized in a swimming pool. In 2000, when I bumbled into a situation that required knowing what was going on I got quite an education online, confirming here and there some of what I was being told. I often got into disputes in some of those egroups, got kicked out and returned with an alias. Some of the stuff they prate about regarding Christianity is the most ignorant garbage imaginable.
I also began to recognize some points about myself and my biological so called mother and began to put two and two together regarding her.
regarding people here not having the background to sort stuff out, if they have read Constance's writings, then they DO have the background, because she writes about the same New Age occultism, politics, AND pseudo spirituality that someone here pretends is not the New Age. And some of these things are also dealt with in some posts.
"I also began to recognize some points about myself and my biological so called mother and began to put two and two together regarding her."
Forgive your mother of her trespasses Christine. If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us because we are commanded by Him to do so and if we do not, then we sin.
Forgiveness is a painful process, I understand that, the angers, the disappointments, the hurt, doesn't usually disappear overnight but we keep giving it over to the Lord.
Forgiveness is a decision to let go, it doesn't necessarily mean all our emotions will be immediately fine but again I say, keep giving it over to the Lord.
We are to honor our parents, and sure, they're supposed to not irritate their children to anger, but let the Lord deal with it Christine.
I'm sorry for the way I do things sometimes but I don't apologize for exposing and rebuking you where you promote those things pertaining to false beliefs and withcraft. However, I am not out to get you just because you're Christine, please understand that.
May God bless and comfort you in this, and heal your pains.
Honoring parents is presupposing they are godly, notice that the promise attaches about keeping the land God gave the Israelites. Jesus also points to taking care of them as a form of this. = Forgiveness also presupposes repentance, but it is good to overlook stuff that is not repented because how much stuff do we not repent of or even recognize?
But define forgiveness - is this supposed to incl. acceptance and forgetfulness and vulnerability to an evil influence? Did not Jacob and Esau, once they made peace, separate and avoid further trouble? Did not Abraham and Lot separate to keep the peace?
I am not going to tie up the blog with a longwinded beginning description of her evil ways. Simply put, she was a witch by instinct and maybe a bit by blood. After I became Christian and started praying, her power seems to have diminished considerably. I didn't even realize what I was dealing with. The extent of her lies I didn't even know until after she was dead. I strongly suspect she murdered someone also, but I can never prove it.
Christine, you have written at 12:37 PM: "I also began to recognize some points about myself and my biological so called mother and began to put two and two together regarding her."
Forgive your mother of her trespasses Christine. If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us because we are commanded by Him to do so and if we do not, then we sin.
Forgiveness is a painful process, I understand that all this baggage, the angers, the disappointments, the hurt, doesn't usually disappear overnight but we keep giving it over to the Lord.
Forgiveness is a decision to let go, it doesn't necessarily mean all our emotions will be immediately fine but again I say, keep giving it over to the Lord.
We are to honor our parents, and sure, they're supposed to not irritate their children to anger, but let the Lord deal with it Christine.
I'm sorry for the way I do things sometimes but I don't apologize for exposing and rebuking you where you promote those things pertaining to false beliefs and withcraft. However, I am not out to get you just because you're Christine, please understand that.
May God bless and comfort you in this, and heal your pains.
It's good you post here. Constance needs to learn that she is not the only one targeted by evil people. Others who speak truth will be the target of evil people.
I don't agree that honoring parents presupposes that they are godly. That's why the Commandment is not unconditionally to OBEY them. I know a bit about this myself.
Christine you wrote: "Honoring parents is presupposing they are godly ..."
No, it isn't Christine. We are to honor our mother and father.
You then wrote: "Forgiveness also presupposes repentance ..."
Yet in Luke 23:24, of those who haven't repented and were in the very act of crucifying and mocking the Lord Jesus Christ, we read:
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
Christine, no servant is greater than his Master! To forgive does not necessitate reconciliation.
Reconciliation is what shouldn't happen until there is repentance.
We, however, must forgive regardless. Forgiveness is a letting go, it allows us to heal.
Forgiveness is not seeking vengeance, it is choosing (however difficult a process) not to harbor ill feeling towards others. It does not mean we forget to the extent that we continue to allow ourselves to be put in a position of reconciliation, which may further harm us, where no repentance is forthcoming. We are, in the end, to wipe the dust off our feet if necessary. Nor does it mean we do not rebuke, correct, or be passive but it does mean letting go of anger and hurt done to us.
There is nothing worthwhile we can do without Jesus Christ our Lord, nothing!
Only the price paid by our Lord and Savior upon the cross can redeem us from death, which is the wages of sin, and all have fallen short of the Glory of God and have sinned apart from He Who shed His blood and gave His life for us, and Who rose from the death, conquering the power of sin.
It is up to us to accept Him for as Romans 10:09 states: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
We however, in true belief must hear His voice and obey His Commandments, and we are commanded to forgive others their trespasses.
That law about honoring our parents is referred to as the first commandment with a promise and it reads, "honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, " Ex. 20:12 and the latter depends on being godly and keeping His commandments. Elsewhere the Israelites are commended for forsaking the errors of their fathers.
Now, granted, there is a difference between "f... you bitch and NO!" and "with all due respect I must refuse this request/order/tradition/whatever."
Yes, Jesus prayed for those not yet repentant and perhaps never were but that this particular thing not be held against them. I think what I said about overlooking tresspasses against us that are not repented of because there are things we haven't repented of or even properly if at all understand (yet) would be under this heading.
I AM GLAD YOU DRAW A DISTINCTION BETWEEN FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION. That is of critical importance in forgiveness not being exploited as a doctrine to further evil and enslavement.
I pray for her soul. When I think her ghost is up to something, I curse at it. At least once I stabbed it In The Name of Jesus. But that is defensive. I don't go looking for trouble.
I realize you probably think that there is no hope after death, but Jesus said "with God all things are possible," and also specified some people would have "the greater damnation," so obviously there are lesser damnations, and said that Sodom and Gomorrha would have it better at The Last Judgement than Tyre and Sidon because they would have repented if given the signs and opportunities the latter two were given and did not repent.
So it is not a simple picture like protestants usually paint. I Maccabees, no one disputes as correct history just not inspired holy writ, and it shows the Jews at the time sometimes prayed and made sacrifices for the dead that their sins not be held against them at The Last Judgement. Luther arbitrarily removed this from being in The Bible because RC was making a racket out of purgatory (an unbiblical concept as distinct from the escapability of hell) at the time.
Christina, you may find these two links help in understanding the command to honor your parents. This does not mean we accept the wrongs they've done to us as though those wrongs were okay to do nor does it mean that we obey them or their desires when such go against God's Will and Commandments, for we should obey God rather than man.
On your second point, firstly we are commanded to not use coarse and foul language:
http://www.openbible.info/topics/foul_language
Secondly, I agree with you that there is a vast difference when we say, and that rather than resort to foul language it is better to use: "with all due respect I must refuse this request/order/tradition/whatever."
I am glad you make this point, and thank you, because I am convicted by it to apologize to Dorothy and all here for calling her a child of a viper and other angry speech. Sorry Dorothy, and also that despite my deep suspicion that she has posted the anonomus posts, I accused without real proof that this is the case.
I am sorry for that also Dorothy and I acknowledge that the Lord knows everything and will repay, not me. Sorry to you Christine for referring to you as her sychophant.
I do not apologize for standing against kabbalah and its promotion because such is witchcraft and must be refuted. I do not, however, know whether Dorothy is a practitioner of such (I sincerely hope not) yet her support of it in times past, or attacking those exposing it as wicked, cannot rightly be accepted.
Christine, you continue by writing: "I AM GLAD YOU DRAW A DISTINCTION BETWEEN FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION. That is of critical importance in forgiveness not being exploited as a doctrine to further evil and enslavement."
Thank you, and yes, I agree with you here.
I do not, however, agree with your next point, which refers to ghosts. In Luke 16: 26 we learn:
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
I believe that demons can and do mascarade themselves as ghosts of past loved ones. Perhaps the intent of such in your case is to cause you confusion. Such should not be cursed, but should be commanded to leave in Jesus Christ's Name, and we should state: "The Lord rebuke you."
Christine, you then write: "I realize you probably think that there is no hope after death."
I think Judgement is in the hands of the Almighty. I do believe I should spread the Gospel, call others to repent, and urge them to believe and confess that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again from the dead and be saved, and that He, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the Only Way and that no man comes to the Father but by Him.
I agree I Maccabees is an historical document and is NOT inspired Holy writ. Therefore, it has no place in the Holy Canon, second place or not. You say it is correct, I understand what you mean but it is not inspired so let us not forget that we should let God be True and every man a liar! Also, because something is reported to have happened does not mean that what has happened is acceptable, and because it is not Inspired Holy writ we should scrutinize anything in it. Let us be as the Berean Greeks and test it by searching the Holy Spirit Inspired canon and seeing if it is contrary or in agreement with Holy Scripture. I personally do not agree with the practice of praying for the dead as mentioned in I Maccabees.
The gulf fixed was between the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead. Abraham did not say he could not send Lazarus to the living, merely that it would be useless, and by implication, why put him to such trouble for no results.
Also note, the dead man did not call to God but to Abraham. Typical of his way in life also.
The only place in The Bible that indicates finality, is in the last few verses of Revelation, and the context has to be after The Last Judgement (as it indeed appears to be), or else it would mean no repentance could be done from c. AD 90 when it was written.
When the Apostles thought Jesus was a ghost He didn't say a. there are no such things or b. there are only demons pretending to be ghosts, He showed them He was not a ghost.
The reference to Peter's angel when he had been released from prison by an angel and was knocking at the door and the men thought it was only his angel not him, though it looked like him, would relate to what the Swedes call a doppelganger, which ranges from a creepy lookalike you meet yourself, to mostly a bilocation, or a last minute visitation right after death. These things seem to have been just taken for granted and ignored or feared.
Luther was not the first to say that what protestants call the Apocrypha - including Maccabees - is non-canonical. St Jerome himself, translator of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into the Latin Vulgate, said the same more than 1000 years earlier. None of the Apocryphal books asserts divine authority (as do the law and prophets). Here are some details from them:
• The Letter of Jeremiah (often printed as the 6th chapter of Baruch) says (in verse 2) that the Jews would be in Babylon for seven generations, whereas Jeremiah (25:11) stated (correctly) 70 years. • Supposedly Tobit was alive when the Assyrians invaded Israel in 722BC (Tobit 1:3), and also alive more than 200 years earlier when Jeroboam’s revolt against Jerusalem (Tobit 1:4-5) divided Israel into northern and southern kingdoms. Yet he is said to have lived less than 130 years (Tobit 14:2)! • Sirach has this to say on bringing up children: “He who loves his son will whip him often… If you play with your child, he will grieve you; do not laugh with him, or you will have sorrow with him… give him no freedom in his youth… make his yoke heavy” (ch. 30). Is this consistent with the loving discipline proposed in Proverbs, or Paul at Ephesians 6:4, or Jesus talking tenderly of children in Matthew 18:1-10?
It is very clear from the Bible that where we end up after the final judgement is settled at the moment of our death. However it is also clear that the dead experience a period of waiting between death and final judgement. I do not rule out that our prayers might influence their state in the meanwhile, and that they might be made to appear to us by occult means (as with the witch of Endor episode), although it is totally forbidden to actively solicit any such interaction. (NB It is eisegesis to say that a demon impersonated Samuel.)
Christine, Jesus doesn't say there are such things as ghosts (as in human spirits roaming the Earth without bodies, which have died) in that passage either, or elsewhere for that matter. Yet there is plenty to refute such phenomena in the Holy Bible. Therefore I stand by what I have written and I do believe Luke 16: 26 is sufficient to dispel the myth of ghosts in the way you've spoken of and declared to be of your mother.
The messenger in Acts 12 that frees Peter is an agel of the Lord. Later, Peter arrives at the Mother of John, whose surname is Mark, and is mistaken for being "his angel". What is meant by this is not exactly clear. This is however no basis for a Biblical inclusion of what is otherwise an occult belief in doppelgangers. Again, you concern me and I cannot strive with you and your gnostic notions forever. Search the Holy Scriptures to see if a matter is true or not.
Btw, doppelganger is German (literally meaning double/twin walker or double/twin wayfarer, not Swedish.
It is appointed once for a man to die and then the Judgement comes. We cannot make it into Heaven if we have rejected Jesus Christ in this life.
Granted this is the sitcom era. Problems solved in an hour. Christine's personal problems are interesting, but not interesting enough to replace research on the New Age movement. Frank's personal view on life is also not a replacement for that kind of research. IS ANYONE OUT THERE INTERESTED IN THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT?
Not exactly in that way. I do not persecute the saints and havent deliberately done so to any because they were Christians or Jews ever in my life. Have you Anon 6:58 PM? I have been a believing Christian ever since I was a small child.
Smiles,
Frank.
"Frank, on the road to Damascus you've found Christianity..."
Yes 7:28 PM, Im interested in refuting the New Age, everything about it and all linked to it, including kabbalah and chakras, are you? Please point out your "exposing the New Age" contributions to this page here.
Frank, go back and read all of the posts since the beginning of this blog. You might learn something about New Age that can't be taught to you in 100 words or less. I've read and have posted since the beginning of this blog. I am only looking for people to contact who have also done so. We will recognize each other by the content of what we post.
I specifically said to "contributions this page here" because the reply youve just given was to be expected. I am right in thinking so, am I not?
Moreover, have you stood against all things pertaining to "New Age" and witchcraft, such as kabbalah for instance? Or have you stood against those exposing kabbalah in all its forms?
You see, I do not like bullying nor bullies, and I stand up against them even if I did not always do so straight away before.
You may see me as one yourself, but you would be wrong.
I agree with your next point: "We will recognize each other by the content of what we post."
Jesus didn't say there were such things, neither did He contradict such superstitions. Why not? He didn't hesitate to contradict other stuff that was wrong.
the Last Judgement is over a thousand years after the Second Coming.
"Granted this is the sitcom era. Problems solved in an hour. Christine's personal problems are interesting, but not interesting enough to replace research on the New Age movement. Frank's personal view on life is also not a replacement for that kind of research. IS ANYONE OUT THERE INTERESTED IN THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT?"
at this point, I agree. my experiences may be of help to some here and elsewhere I have discussed them.
Perhaps someone should go over the past few months, collect the posted links they think should be looked at again or might have been missed, and repost them in a big post, probably in the next blog post Constance makes because this one is probably running out of time.
Here's an article explaining how the so-called emergent church is replete with kabbalist filth.
http://www.letusreason.org/curren76.htm
And on this next blog, http://www.celebrate-life.info/2012/en/archive/speakers.html , (caution, this is a New Age blog link) we see the likes of Barbara Marx Hubbard and others, including Michael Laitman. It states:
"Michael Laitman is a Professor of Ontology and the Theory of Knowledge, Doctor of Philosophy and Kabbalah, and has a Master of Science of Biocybernetics. He gives lessons for 30 years and founded the public education and research center Bnei Baruch, which has more than 2.5 million students and holds the world's most comprehensive educational materials about the Kabbalah. He has written more than 30 books, translated into 27 languages. His lessons to his students can attend free of charge every day live on the Internet."
"As a scientist and global thinker, Laitman is a sought-after lecturer on the topic of authentic Kabbalah. He is frequently invited to participate in prestigious international meetings such as the World Wisdom Council and the Club of Budapest, and in the last two years he has been in numerous meetings in the United States, Canada, Europe , Russia, and Latin America. Most recently, as the founder and president of the Ashlag Research Institute (ARI), he has established ties with UNESCO on the subject of global education."
www.laitman.de www.kabbalah.info [DANGER AHEAD ON THIS SITE!]
A REPORT TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE ABOUT NEW AGE ANTISEMITISM by Hannah Newman -- freeway@netvision.net.il
Here's a report that shows the Anti-Judaism and Anti-Christianity of the New Age Movement. I state alot against Kabbalah, yet emphasise that I am not anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic although I believe Kabbalah, used by many new agers is anti-Judaism.
I do believe the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ of Nazareth, yes, however, this post clearly shows the hatred of the New Age Movement for Judaism, whether the Messiah Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is recognized or not.
I do not want readers to misinterpret my position and do not want them to end up believing the Tex Marrs of this World. Therefore, although the article is a basic overview of the obvious for seasoned Anti-New Agers, I see it as a necessary post for those not so well aquainted with the New Age Movement's rabid and vicious Anti-Judaism.
"In the Kabala God is in everything and everything is in God (The Kabalah, p.18). This is called pantheism, it is a non Judaic/Christian view. It also says Creation was not made out of “nothing” (The Kabalah p. 115). Creation was fashioned from the four elements-water, fire, earth and ether. This concept is also found in some ancient nature religions, but not in Judaism. In the Kabala it teaches that the soul is pre-existent, before conception (The Kabalah, p. 17). That one may recollect their previous existence. “The pure soul becomes present among the emanantions(10) who control the world. An impure soul must be reborn in another body, and the process continues until it has been made pure” (Evangelical Dictionary of Theology by W. Elwell, p.598)."
Indeed, this is not Torah Judaism or anything like it. Genesis and a few other places point to creation out of nothing. To say that God created everything out of these elements, after saying it was not created out of nothing, is to say that these elements are coeternal with and alongside God, since they are not themselves said to be created!
The description of everything IN God and God IN everything is not however pantheism. This is in fact biblically correct, "in Him we live and move and have our being," this still makes a distinction between God and the creation He contains all being larger than all, and can be everywhere, but pantheism - and this tendency is encouraged by kabbalism - holds that God made everything out of Himself and/or that the universe is itself God.
(the divine spark idea is a straight steal out of gnosticism, that the soul is trapped in mere matter, gnosticism held that the physical creation is inherently evil and a lesser being not The Most High made the physical creation. However, "divine spark" can be interpreted as "image and likeness of God," but it probably won't be.
Reincarnation is totally alien to OT, there is not a hint of it. Resurrection of the dead someday, giving them new bodies but that a one time thing that lasts forever, and it is the same person and general form, a restoration not a reincarnation.
All this stuff is totally pagan in origin. A holdover from the influence of overly hellenized Jews.
A pretty good review Christine. However, it is too ecumenical, too one religion for the world, for me when two Christians decide what Kabbalah is about, who is following it and what should others think about it. It could only be matched by two Jews, neither one a rabbi, deciding what the Christianity of St. Augustine or Rick Warren is about, who is following it and what should others think about it.
I don't see the difficulty. first off, in Judaism kabbalism has been referred to by one rabbi as the soul of Judaism and by another as a disease of the mind.
Secondly, in both scenarios, you are dealing with religions that have written permanent core standards. It is quite possible to be a non believer or an atheist even, and to look at the core writings of Christianity, the early church traditions, that derive from the Apostles and The Bible, and then square that against Rick Warren and other such like, and say, do these later people fit the core doctrines and writings or not? Does St. Augustine go off base at some points while remaining a great fighter against paganism and at least one specific heresy, (as Eastern Orthodoxy says) or not?
Likewise, especially since within Judaism there is great disagreement, and even among those who supported kabbalism it was a rule that no one should study it below the age of I think 40 and some other precondition, which added up to, the student should not be of a frame of mind to blindly accept it all and go hog wild.
There are some key points in the Torah, which some points of kabbalism goes against. (There are some problems in the Talmud also, but the Talmud is full of conflicting opinions anyway.)
One big problem Torah wise with kabbalism is precisely that it tries to probe into the unseen and unknown and unrevealed, and Moses said that God has kept the hidden things for Himself, but the revealed things are for us and our children to keep.
kabbalism attempts to probe where you can't go with any certainty, and uses tools that come from pagan philosophy and magic, both of which are dubious at best, prohibited at worst.
I can look at the history and development of Buddhism, and say, yes, the Theravada (called Hinayana or lesser vehicle by the self styled Mahayana or greater vehicle)is in fact the original Buddhism, and this other stuff is a deviation from it. Zen attempted in its fast track way to get back to basics though is technically counted as Mahayana because of its pedigree.
I am not a Buddhist. I don't have to be. In fact, being an outsider with no dog in that fight, just might give an objectivity that can cut through obscurantism and confusion and presuppositions and loyalties that obscure the core issues of what did Buddha teach and what didn't he teach? which is the real buddhism which is syncretistic and invented deviation?
Back to Judaism. Torah and Talmud are not considered potentially destabilizing. Kabbalah IS so considered. Modern ease of access to it would horrify the old teachers.
That in itself should tell you something is wrong with it, something is ungodly.
I would add though that the blasphemous talmud is also not true Judaism, which is really found in the Tanakh (Old Testament)and is fulfilled in Jesus Christ in the New Testament through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ, that is, Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is called yeshu in the Talmud (meaning no-name or that His Name is blotted out). Yet God would never blot out Himself! He is also referrred to as an illegitimate offspring (though a coarser word is used to descrtibe this) of a Roman soldier. His earthly mother (He has no Heavenly mother of course) is called a whore, and many more disgusting writings are written in the unedited version of the Unholy Babylonian (this should give you a clue as to its origins)talmud.
There are many Jews who rightly reject both the kabbalah in all its forms (therefore including zohar) and the talmud in all its forms, even if many sadly have not accepted eternal life (although all men are appointed once to die of course) and salvation because they have not yet accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and are blinded in general until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
Those who meddle in kabbalah, which shows how to cunjure demons (and supposedly control them to do one's bidding), are of the Synagogue of Satan, and although they may or may not be Semitic they have given up their inheritance and should not therefore be called Jews.
Great post anyway Christine, full of intelligent reasoning and holding to the traditions once delivered unto the Saints. Keep fighting for the Faith.
"Emory University issued a formal apology to Jewish dental students who attended the school between 1948 and 1961 and faced anti-Semitism."
"University President James Wagner delivered the apology at a special event Wednesday night that included 32 former students, now in their 70s and 80s, of the Atlanta school. The students had received failing grades, were thrown out of school or were forced to repeat classes only because they were Jewish."
I must add though Christine, and I'm not saying you're promoting it, that Buddhism is evil.
What it teaches regards karma (the concept of karma is a lie from Hell)leads to the evil conclusion that innocent children that died in the holocaust or starve to death in parts of Africa and elsewhere, suffer such because of something they did wrong as individuals in a past life. Karma, such as in mainstream Hinduism (from which Buddhism is generally derived) even teaches that you should not help the lame, the poor, the destitute and hungry, etc, because they are in that position because of wrongs they've supposedly committed in so-called past lives, and that if you help them you are merely prolonging the agony of experiencing the fruits of bad karma for them.
Such concepts held by Buddhism and Hinduism are in reality evil lies straight from the pit of Hell!
Any Buddhist or Hindu with an inkling of honesty in them won't deny such are the results of the teaching of Karma in these (dis)respecive false religions, i.e., Buddhism and Hinduism.
They also teach implicitly or expressedly that lie first told in the Garden of Eden, that you shall be as God or Divine (Spark) as the Kabbalists and New Agers (who draw much of their belief system from Kabbalah, Hinduism and Buddhism, and other lies of the Devil)
I must add though Christine, and I'm not saying you're promoting it, that Buddhism is evil.
What it teaches regards karma (the concept of karma is a lie from Hell)leads to the evil conclusion that innocent children that died in the holocaust or starve to death in parts of Africa and elsewhere, suffer such because of something they did wrong as individuals in a past life. Karma, such as in mainstream Hinduism (from which Buddhism is generally derived) even teaches that you should not help the lame, the poor, the destitute and hungry, etc, because they are in that position because of wrongs they've supposedly committed in so-called past lives, and that if you help them you are merely prolonging the agony of experiencing the fruits of bad karma for them.
Such concepts held by Buddhism and Hinduism are in reality evil lies straight from the pit of Hell!
Any Buddhist or Hindu with an inkling of honesty in them won't deny such are the results of the teaching of Karma in these (dis)respecive false religions, i.e., Buddhism and Hinduism.
They also teach implicitly or expressedly that lie first told in the Garden of Eden, that you shall be as God or Divine (Spark) as the Kabbalists and New Agers also claim(who draw much of their belief system from Kabbalah, Hinduism and Buddhism, and other lies of the Devil).
In fact, a few years ago Dorothy (if my memory serves me well) rightly posted stuff exposing Buddhism.
It is a shame she has been less forthcoming in exposing the evil Kabbalah (including Zohar), but rather has spent her time attacking the exposers therof.
It's not karma that is an evil concept. The concept that sin will subsequently cause you misery is absolutely right. The problem is the linking of that concept with reincarnation (repudiated at Hebrews 9:27).
Buddhists also worked out in their own strength, correctly, that we should be attached to nothing in this world. Their problem is that they don't acknowledge their Creator to cling to.
By the way, in case someone thinks I'm bashing Jewish people, I am not!
Disobedience to God is such no matter who does it, and should be exposed! Kabbalah has also been dabbled in by some that have called themselves Christians (cabala). Just as much as those who say they are Jews but do and believe things truly Anti-Jewish by following Kabbalist teachings break God's Commands in Deuteronomy 18 and elsewhere in Holy Scripture, so do those who claim to be Christians but do and believe things truly Anti-Christian by also following Cabalist teachings break God's Commands in Deuteronomy 18.
Deuteronomy 18: 9 "When you enter the land ADONAI your God is giving you, you are not to learn how to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through fire, a diviner, a soothsayer, an enchanter, a sorcerer, 11 a spell-caster, a consulter of ghosts or spirits, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to ADONAI, and because of these abominations ADONAI your God is driving them out ahead of you.
This link has an interesting overview of why Kabbalah is wrong. I'm not familiar with the site as I have only just found it, and there are a few things I may differ on from them(such as still having to keep the Saturday Sabbath [I believe our rest in now in Jesus Christ]).
However, I have read and agree with the contents of the following article exposing Kabbalah, by the way, this, in so far as I've seen, is a Messianic Jewish website.
http://therefinersfire.org/kabbalah.htm
God willing, I'll refrain from any immediate further posts (unless I find something very pertinent or it is needed to respond to another poster for whatever reason)so that I'm not blog-hogging.
I did say, "unless I find something very pertinent or it is needed to respond to another poster for whatever reason", as anon 10:10 AM stated something I feel is right to respond to now.
The idea of Karma in Buddhism from Hinduism, of which I specifically wrote, is always related to reincarnation.
Of course, also, the Devil likes to counterfeit the things of God ( such as unpleasant things happening as a result of sin), yet the Buddhist and Hindu notions, known as karma, twist this, even when referring to things we may suffer in this life because of things we've done in this life.
I did not use the word sin in my post at 9:31 AM, and deliberately used the word 'wrongs', and followed by the words 'supposedly committed', because somethings the Buddhist and Hindu claim are wrong to do or not to do, are often the opposite to what Judeo-Christianity claims about doing or not doing certain things, such as feeding or helping someone in need.
Karma is a deception and a counterfeit and distorted notion. Yes, under karma, doing something in this life may have consequences in this life, the next, or both.
However, despite its clever deception, it is not the same as the recompense spoken of in Holy Scripture. Also, the terrible results of Sin suffered by a person or persons is not always due to sins that committed by the suffering individual or group. The sins committed against innocent children during the Holocaust was due to evil adults in power, such as camp guards, Nazi soldiers and politicians, as not because of something the children had done. To claim otherwise is a grave sin.
I did say, "unless I find something very pertinent or it is needed to respond to another poster for whatever reason", as Anon 10:10 AM stated something I feel is right to respond to now.
The idea of Karma in Buddhism from Hinduism, of which I specifically wrote, is always related to reincarnation.
Of course, also, the Devil likes to counterfeit the things of God.
Yes, unpleasant things happen as a result of sin, yet the Buddhist and Hindu notions, known as karma, twist the truth, even when referring to things we may suffer in this life because of things we've done in this life.
I did not use the word sin in my post at 9:31 AM, and deliberately used the word 'wrongs', followed by the words 'supposedly committed', because somethings the Buddhist and Hindu claim are wrong to do or not to do, are often the opposite to what Judeo-Christianity claims about doing or not doing certain things, such as feeding or helping someone in need.
Karma is a deception and a counterfeit and distorted notion.
Yes, under karma, doing something in this life may have consequences in this life, the next, or both.
However, despite its clever deception, it is not the same as the recompense spoken of in Holy Scripture. Also, the terrible results of Sin suffered by a person or persons is not always due to sins that may have been committed by the suffering individual or group. The sins committed against innocent children during the Holocaust were due to evil adults in power, such as camp guards, Nazi soldiers and politicians, and not because of something the children had done. To claim otherwise is a grave sin.
Frank: I am Anon@10.10AM. I am a committed evangelical Christian and I have never been a Buddhist. I also agree with you that what is and is not sin sometimes needs explaining to people; that is why God gave laws to Israel. But you criticise the notion of karma without defining what you understand by it - and this in a debate in which the meaning of the word is a key issue. Please clarify. In particular, are you certain that karma is not equivalent to what we call "the wages of sin"? If it is, then missionaries in Buddhist lands might legitimately talk of karma once they have preached against reincarnation.
12:58 PM, I believe I have both clarified and stated what I believe to be the case regards Karma, my belief that is is deceptive and a fraudulent counterfeit of "the wages of sin" and refer you to the points I've already made on this issue to study them a little more closely.
Anon at 12:08 PM, (STUDYING THE TIME OF YOUR POST A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY, lol.) I believe I have both clarified and stated what I believe to be the case regards Karma, my belief that is is deceptive and a fraudulent counterfeit of "the wages of sin" and refer you to the points I've already made on this issue to study them a little more closely.
P.S., anon 12:08, I believe in reaching out to such Buddhists, etc, the best approach would be to compare and contrast karma, showing it as a deception, to the concept of the wages of sin, and the Command of loving our neighbors as ourselves as shown in the Holy Bible, along with the concept of forgiveness and repentance and the hope we have in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior: "Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25).
It is not for us to preach a compomised version of the Good News, just because we in our human understanding might think it easier for others to stomach. We may offer milk only to babes, yes, but it should never contradict or deviate from God's Holy Word.
Frank: I couldn't agree more that one should not compromise on the message of the gospel. All I'm saying is that the choice of words to be used when preaching in a language different from that of the gospels, to people in a culture that has not been shaped by the gospel, is not a trivial matter.
A buddhisdt or Hindu I forget which, one understanding the Gospel and I think accepting it, said, "Jesus took our karma on the Cross."
The problems of the doctrine of karma mixed with reincarnation are exactly as Frank has described. It is considered evil to help those suffering because it will interfere with them working out their karma from a previous life, thus I guess condemning them to more working out of it in the next life so giving them a respite now is seen as hurting by helping.
St. Paul used points out of pagan thought when it served to help them see a point.
I recall reading once that a Christian university student was debating with another student who was hindu, and finally held a pot of hot coffee over his head and said, "is there anything in your religion that would prohibit pouring this on you?" the hindu had to admit there wasn't, as contrasted with the Christian standards that DO prohibit this. OF course the pot wasn't poured, it was just to make a point.
Talmud consists mostly of stuff of no relevance pro or con to Jesus only interpreting points in Torah that were not spelled out, how to deal with unclarified disputes.
Rabbi Akiva was rabidly anti Christian, and ran the Jamnia or Yavneh school sometimes called the Council of Jamnia but it was more like a yeshiva. This was a bottleneck in the development of Judaism as we have this now.
The Masoretic text we have now, all came through his copyists, and he tweaked some stuff a little that was in use at the time to convert Jews. The Septuagint, the Torah being translated into Greek c. 200 BC and the rest of The Bible at various times later BC, was replaced with another Greek translation for use by Greek speaking Jews.
The Septuagint is what the Apostles used, which is why you almost never get a proper match, when looking up in Masoretic OT an OT quote in the NT.
Buddha tried to get to the root of all problems, and decided that all things take their arising from something else, even the so called gods of hinduism, so threw them out. Prohibiting worship of the false gods, and limited to the concepts of hinduism, he focussed on stopping the round of rebirths by stopping generating karma in the first place. this was as far as he could go in climbing OUT of the morass of hinduism.
For there to be a true God, He would have to take His arising from nothing and no one but Himself. Since no one in the hindu pantheon fit the bill, Buddha left the idea of does God exist or not an open question and essentially was agnostic.
YHWH fits the bill. The Self Existent Eternal Creator does not take His arising from anyone or anything but Himself. But Buddha had no one to tell him about this.
Buddhism in its original form was a step in the right direction. the Mahayana forms are a step back.
This is a point I would use in witnessing to Buddhists.
I am not a Buddhist, but I appreciate Buddha's efforts to escape the theological and social evils around him and to correct them.
Buddhism was eventually driven out of India by hindus, except for Sri Lanka.
One does not have to alter the Gospel in order to use the occasional compatible point in a false system, to draw people out of the false system and to Christ.
Christine, some musings on your post of 3.29pm about Buddhism. Its biggest problem is that its sense of the transcendental is impersonal. It is totally committed to monism, to the extent that all differentiation is regarded as illusion.
A useful way round the "If God created the world then who created God?" issue is to point out that God created time, just as he created space (which his easier to grasp). The question as phrased presupposes a notion of time and so is not a meaningful question.
"Talmud consists mostly of stuff of no relevance pro or con to Jesus only interpreting points in Torah that were not spelled out, how to deal with unclarified disputes."
Indeed it started out as commentaries on the Torah, but the problem is that it has been elevated in Orthodox Judaism to a source of knowledge of equal authority to the OT. The rabbis claim that it was given to Moses orally by God at the same time as the written Law, with instructions that it should be transmitted orally and not written down. This claim cannot account for the fact that the Talmud refers to the OT thousands of times but not vice-versa. Beware of Jews who talk about the "oral Torah", because although the literal translation is just "oral teaching" the phrase is invariably used by those who take the rabbinical view of it.
"The Septuagint is what the Apostles used, which is why you almost never get a proper match, when looking up in Masoretic OT an OT quote in the NT."
That can't be the explanation. The discrepancy should be healable in translations of the Bible into other languages (such as English) except in the very few places where LXX and Masoretes differ in meaning rather than idiom.
There are places online that track rate of agreement. In some quotes the parallel is closer to Masoretic on others it is LXX. What do you think the reason is?
Yes Saint Paul did use points out of pagan thought when it served to help them see a point, such as when he declared their 'unknown God' knowable in Acts 17. However, we do not read of him saying or agreeing with anything contrary to Holy Scripture.
Anon 2:28 PM, telling the truth where people are used to a language of lies is like shining the light in the dark. There are many who do not want that light shone because their evil deeds will be exposed. It is the same with the evil deception of karma, when we shine the light of Gospel truth on it and compare and contrast it and show it as darkness and rot, (rather than compromising and pretending it is similar and thereby agreeing with the deception), there is a chance for the blind to see, repent, and come into the light found only in Jesus Christ.
If we choose to say anything contrary to Holy Scripture (and karma is contrary to Holy Scripture as I've already shown in previous posts) we do lie and make ourselves blind. Do you not know that if the blind lead the blind both shall fall into a ditch? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
"Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?" (Mark 8:18)
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." (Matthew 13:16)
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15)
You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them. (Isaiah 6:9-10)
Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." (John 9:39)
He who has eyes, let him see, he who has ears let him hear!
karma separated from reincarnation and with the proviso that everything that happens is NOT a matter of justice (this was the error of Job's comforters) and that judgement may fall entirely in the afterlife, does pretty much eviscerate karma as understood by the hindus and buddhists. however, starting with a concept they understand and tweaking it to Gospel compatibility is not speaking against the Gospel.
However, what offends your conscience, don't do. "when in doubt, don't." Also, some things regardless of what you do with them can be triggering of stuff in your heart you don't need, often it is best to make a clean break with the past.
It is vital that we be as the Berean Greeks and search the Holy Scriptures diligently. God tells us that His people have gone astray through lack of knowledge, and that we should reason but not lean on our own understanding but trust Him rather than vain philosophies.
If we are handled counterfeit money and do not know the hall-marks, water-marks, and details of the genuine article we may become bankrupt and lose everything, and if we're messing with the Mafia we may lose our lives as in having our physical bodies killed. How much more important is it therefore that when we are talking about the souls of men, we do not accept or offer a counterfeit option but stand firm in preaching the Holy Gospel: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
To be read in conjuction with my other posts on this matter.
Please be a little slower on the trigger. I wrote at 2.28pm the following words:
"I couldn't agree more that one should not compromise on the message of the gospel. All I'm saying is that the choice of words to be used when preaching in a language different from that of the gospels, to people in a culture that has not been shaped by the gospel, is not a trivial matter."
I can't imagine that you disagree with any of that. Perhaps you are unhappy that I am not acquiescing to your view that karma is intrinsically a demonic or deluded concept. You reply as follows:
"If we choose to say anything contrary to Holy Scripture (and karma is contrary to Holy Scripture as I've already shown in previous posts) we do lie and make ourselves blind. Do you not know that if the blind lead the blind both shall fall into a ditch?"
If karma means simply "the wages of sin" then it is appropriate for missionaries to use the word - they simply have to replace reincarnation with hell. If karma means something else then the situation is different. All I am saying is that I don't know exactly what karma means in (say) Bhutan, and I suspect that you don't either. I believe this is is not a theological disagreement between us, but a difference over how to preach in places like Bhutan. We cannot strand Christian missionaries with inadequate vocabulary to preach to pagan peoples in their own tongue. We are having this dialogue in English and the inhabitants of what is now England were once pagan!
It's not about me, it's about speaking the truth. If, as I assume, by language you refer not to Hebrew and Greek et cetera but to the substance of that which is being spoken about infused with beliefs, then I say to you I do not agree with preaching in a language different to the Gospel.
For my reasons please see my posts and Biblical references above. I have made my position clear.
Following the reasoning being promoted here by Frank, we should just throw out all of the lawbooks in the US and base all court decisions on the Constitution. What is forgotten is the the issues spoken about in the Talmud were used to determine what was legal in the Jewish communities of the time as in the past Jews lived in their own communities and had to determine the laws by which they lived. The Talmud was used to determine legal determinations and how they came about, giving different approaches to the same situation. Even now it is studied in the same way law books are studied in the US.
Nobody is asking you to live by Talmudic laws, so mind your own business Frank. You are more of a "know it all" than a recognized authority in anything.
4:00 pm You are wrong about the Talmud. Moses set up courts to determine the law. It's on that basis that the Talmud exists. When Jews start telling Christians which version of the Bible they must use and whether or not to accept the New Testament, then you'll have a quid pro quo. Let us know your credentials if you claim to be an authority on Judaism.
Frank, let me gladly clarify that wherever I used the word 'language' at 5.04pm I meant 'tongue' eg Hebrew, Greek, English, Hindi etc. With that understood, I do wish to stand by my statement that if karma means simply "the wages of sin" then it is appropriate for missionaries to use the word - they merely have to replace reincarnation with hell. If, however, karma means something else then the situation is different, and (depending on what it means) I might counsel missionaries to avoid it. But I don't know exactly what karma means in (say) Bhutan, and I guess that you don't either. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) In that case it is a little hasty to say that the word is never appropriate. Some scholarship is needed in order to go further.
This is Anon@4.00pm. You wrote these words to me: "You are wrong about the Talmud. Moses set up courts to determine the law. It's on that basis that the Talmud exists." I am mystified because that's exactly what I said - my words were "it started out as commentaries on the Torah". Because Torah contained Mosaic Law, commentaries on its interpretation in court cases sprang up.
I stand by my statement that Talmud "has been elevated in Orthodox Judaism to a source of knowledge of equal authority to the OT. The rabbis claim that it was given to Moses orally by God at the same time as the written Law, with instructions that it should be transmitted orally and not written down. This claim cannot account for the fact that the Talmud refers to the OT thousands of times but not vice-versa."
If this is wrong then you should be able to crush me with facts, not ask me for my qualifications. But I'll gladly tell you my background and sources: I am a gentile Christian who supports the existence of the State of Israel as the partial fulfilment of certain Tanakh prophecies. I pray for Israel in a monthly prayer group friendly to it (safety from its enemies, integrity of its borders, and - yes - that individual Jews should know Yeshua as divine Messiah). I have a close personal friend who is a secular Jew brought up Orthodox Jewish in Russia. Among the books I've read are "The rebirth of the State of Israel: Is it of God or men?" by Arthur Kac, a messianic Jew. My friend and Kac both say what I wrote above.
I understand what you are saying about linguistics and points of reference, Anon, but there is always possibility of expressing something, even by use of pictures, and things around us to get across a true Biblical view without compromise. The words already available to them are not the only means of communication and introduction of new words for those concepts. I believe God always provides a way without us having to compromise. If, hypothetically speaking, in Bhutan (which follows Buddhism in general and is known for its persecution of Christians) kharma (which I seriously doubt) were to be an identical concept to that of 'the wages of sin', which I'm sure it is not, that would be made apparent as the discourse progressed. However, I believe I have exposed kharma correctly.
Moreover, we can do nothing without God and all our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. We are saved by grace not works. Yet the evidence of true belief is to bear fruit that we remain in the Vine we show our faith by our works and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, yet we are really only saved by the Grace of God. That is, we are saved from the wages of sin, which is death, only by repenting and therefore believing in and obeying the Lord Jesus Christ: "Whom God has set forth to be a Propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25).
"Following the reasoning being promoted here by Frank, we should just throw out all of the lawbooks in the US and base all court decisions on the Constitution"
You sound like Obama, Anon at 5:24 PM, he also doesn't understand Christianity.
'Obama mocks God and the Bible in speech of religion, obama overrides congress'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntuIDNXYoPw
The talmud? In all, nothing more than the deceptive traditions of men, many blasphemous, leading men astray:
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:13
The Unholy talmud has been called oral torah by its promoters, yet it is contrary to the Holy Torah (Pentateuch) found in the Holy Tanakh (Old Testament), it is another torah: 'another gospel'.
The Talmud cannot have been given to Moses, because everyone cited in it are post Babylonian Captivity and some are AD or nearly.
The Talmud is NOT the thing that is alleged to be ancient oral tradition given to Moses, that is the Kabalah. The various Midrashim or commentaries incl. ancient legends and so forth may have some historical validity. But nothing in the Talmud, except for quotes from the Torah, dates from anywhere near Moses' time.
If the Midrash incl. materials from Jubilees, Jashar, Wars of YHWH or Enoch, then this material would be closer to Moses' time. but I am not expert so I can only speculate.
I have read the Talmud. Most of it is entirely harmless from a Christian perspective.
Some has been severely misquoted or mishandled by anti semities. For instance, in the argument about whether or not to fine a man who rapes his daughter, the antisemites argue that that was the only punishment considered, when in fact the Talmud says he was to die, and the issue of the bride price was, since one is not to punish someone twice for the same sin as to whether the bride price was interpreted to go to the girl or to the father.
The issue of the rape of a child under a certain "not counting" was NOT that it didn't count against the perpetrator, but that it didn't count against her being considered a virgin who could marry a priest later.
I might add, that since God through the Prophets condemned judges who made unrighteous decisions, it follows that anything in the Talmud should be weighed carefully because it might include such wrong judgements passed along with good ones in the tradition that the later rabbis may have used.
An example of something that cannot come from Moses' time, because it deals with the circumstances of Jews in captivity, AND that shows a wrong judgement, is the statement that if ordered to privately engage in idolatry it is okay, but to do something publically that was even so much as a tiny deviation from some Jewishness identity declaring practice like something about shoes or whatever was prohibited.
On the contrary, God condemned those who secretly kept their idols with them. Secret sins brought divine wrath down on the people as well as overt public sinning.
There are other problems here and there.
In any case, the bulk of the Talmud details arguments between people like Gamaliel, Hillel and others who are very close to Jesus' time.
It is not Mosaic in origin.
In Ruth's time, you can see the beginning of problems, and this was from the time of the Book of Judges which begins and ends with the complaint that lacking a king every man did what was right in his own eyes. Some right wing semi anarchist writer took this as a good thing, but rather, it is bad, and the Book of Judges shows what happened as a result.
Before Ruth could marry Boaz, he had to get a release from a nearer relative to her dead husband. Naomi had targetted Boaz because of his relationship.
But what does the Torah say? In Deuteronomy, a widow can only claim the brother (term could mean half brother or first cousin) IF he had been living with the couple at the time of the husband's death.
NO ONE had a claim on Ruth or vice versa. However, the way the people had come to interpret it, such a claim existed and had to be dealt with.
The Sephardic Jews developed the rule that a woman HAD to release the man she would have a claim on. (See Adam Wouk, THIS IS MY GOD.)
The infamous rapist gets to marry his victim rule in Deuteronomy, is not like this, but seems supported by the Talmud. Deuteronomy puts this in context of the whole issue of adultery and so forth, a married woman is FOUND WITH her lover they are both to die. A betrothed girl ditto, she didn't cry out and the man humbled by seduction the wife of another, betrothal being equivalent to marriage then.
A betrothed virgin if seized and forced where she cannot be heard if she cried for help, is not to be punished, but the man is to die and she is compared to a murder victim, not to a robbery victim or to a stolen cow or something.
This similitude makes the act a crime against her person, not against her husband or fiance's property.
Now, the unbetrothed virgin is descried as seized or laid hold on, but THE HEBREW WORDS for seize are TOTALLY DIFFERENT not even the same root, and it also says, same wording as with the willing adulteress whose case starts this section of Deuteronomy, AND THEY ARE FOUND.
So this is a seduction, not a forcible rape. The bride price must be paid but the marriage is dependent on her father's approval,
Now, you can see how some judge whose son or other relative is in trouble might play this. or bribery.
The reason I don't like modern translations, especially paraphrases, is that they invariably miss this, though KJV and NKJV use different English words for seize one is seize one is lay hold on I forget which, and of course the "and they are found" is a clue.
Another problem would be where the perpetrator is among the Levites or other indispensable people. Similar to the problem of some Afghan anti Russian (we should have left them alone, they are all no good) rebels, who had the problem of, this guy stole a gun and has to have his hand cut off, but they need him in one piece to fight the war. How it was resolved the article didn't say.
Christine, Moses set up courts since he couldn't make all of the decisions himself when all of the people were coming to him. Just what do you think the Sanhedrin is. Read up http://sagavyah.tripod.com/id59.html
Of course it was Oral law. Just how do you think it was passed down. By scratching on rocks? When the temple was destroyed and the body of law was large, then it was that it was written down.
Again, no one is asking you either to live by the Talmud. You are not an Orthodox Jew.
This kind of reasoning is just a precursor to belief in a one world religion where everybody's religion has to fit into some large mold that the state can find acceptable.
Orthodox Jews are going after your hides because they follow the law in the Talmud. What's it to you what they believe?
That should have read Orthodox Jews are not going after your hides because they follow the Talmud. They aren't killing Christians as the Muslims are.
If you have so much spare energy, start telling the Muslims what they are doing to Christians is not really what is meant by the Koran as the peaceful ones try to tell you is the case.
As far as the Oral Law is concerned, more primitive tribes had leaders who committed to memory tremendous amounts of information. They in turn picked followers who they judged to be able to learn. My belief is that IQs haven't gone up in thousands of years. The brain was used then to store a very large body of information which the community needed to know to live in the conditions they found themselves in. Progress was more a matter of what was valued by the community than the the size of the brain.
We are just so hotshot full of pride, not because we accomplish more than the primitives did, but because there are individuals who have progressed the information about the material world.
_"Orthodox Jews follow the law in the Talmud." ??? What ? What law ? What is the law in the Talmud ? I thought that the Talmud was supposed to be a commentary and an interpretation of the Law of God in Moses; in other words the Torah. How do Orthodox Jews follow that, seeing as there is no Temple in Jerusalem ? What daily sacrifice? What sacrifice of Atonement? What Ram of Consecration ? What sin offering ? What peace offering ? What meal offering ? Where? How ?
I have already refuted the claim the Talmud is Mosaic, because of the people named within it as contributors. Very little could go to that time. As for primitive tribes committing tons of stuff to memory, there is no way to check that they got it right. And one anthropologist found that a traditional story told one way was being told another way by someone else in the tribe, and on asking was told "he tells it that way, I tell it this way."
God and His prophets always committed things to WRITING which is harder to corrupt on purpose or by accident.
Where in the Torah is oral tradition mentioned as a valid issue? Where in the Prophets?
As for not being asked to abide by Orthodox Jewish law, that is irrelevant. Perhaps you don't know this, but lots and lots of Christians look to precedent in The Bible to handle ethical and other practical issues.
Now, that is a very good point the last poster made.
Without The Temple and priesthood, you can't really practice your religion except as Adam Wouk described as "as if," thus charitable works substitute for sacrifices. Which is probably closer to the original intent anyway. and for Yom Kippur you got mourning and self examination, which was the intent of the Law in the first place.
But still, you lack a priesthood, you lack the holy water of the red heifer, without which you cannot be cleansed if you ever touched a dead human, and I think other things are at issue, and there are details that mean you can never have everything kosher in reality.
I never heard of Talmud claiming to date from Moses until you said this. That claim goes for the hellenizing gnostic and magical stuff of Kabbalah, not Talmud.
The people named in the Talmud are from the first centuries before and some centuries after Christ (Greek for Messiah).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14213-talmud longwinded and detailed overview, no reference to Mosaic origins of the Talmud itself. That the Talmud INCLUDES CONTRADICTORY OPINIONS FROM DISAGREEING REPRESENTATIVES OF VARIOUS SCHOOLS OF TORAH shows that it is human not divine, and while it may be viewed by many Jews as on a par with Torah, it isn't.
I don't have to have a dog in this fight to be able to read. Torah your system says is boss. Talmud your system says also is boss because it is incredibly ancient and explains Torah.
Talmud says itself it is not as ancient, and records the total disagreement between experts regarding the Torah on several matters. Also, I can read. Here and there I can see where there is divergence between Torah and Talmud.
Okay? I have objectivity. you don't. I think that gives me an advantage, were I trying to figure out what to submit myself to (should i convert to Judaism from agnosticism if so which branch? but that decision has been made already, I am Christian and within that category Eastern Orthodox but unlike many and because of points in Scripture OT and NT some have forgotten, I am mostly pro Israel.
St. Paul said that the Jews have been blinded until the fulness of the gentiles have been brought in, but we are the wild olive branch grafted in among the domestic olive branches - the Jews - and we should not boast against the root - you guys - and they are still beloved by God for the fathers' sake. Its in Romans.
Peace in Messiah (Greek is Christos both mean Anointed One) Jesus.
"God and His prophets always committed things to WRITING which is harder to corrupt on purpose or by accident."
OK. Maybe you know something I can document. In what language and in what year was Genesis recorded in writing? I presume you are saying that God wrote down the creation process on something that never disintegrated and gave it to someone. Do you know how silly that sounds?
You write: "because of the people named within it as contributors. Very little could go to that time." Now you claim to be an expert in ancient languages who has studied for years in Jewish archives? Does the word delusional have any meaning in your world?
Would you share the anthropologist's name? Or did you just make up the information which I suspect.
Judaism has its authorities just as Christianity does. I prefer to use them rather than to think about things you make up on the spot, particularly things of which you know nothing. I don't have the physicist's patience.
Stick to writing the fiction you do about occult practices. There are people who will believe you and make you feel good about yourself because they haven't studied much. You can't do much damage because no one here is going to start getting involved in the occult. You won't make them look stupid if they ever start quoting you. You are entertaining, but not much else. Your mind is very much like an encyclopedia that has been torn to shreds and you come along and say you make sense of the shreds of paper that are flying around by putting them together.
"Who is this that darkeneth counsel without knowledge"? (says the Lord out of the whirlwind. Job 38:1)
Does that "shoe" seem like it fits more than a few posts on this blog? And another thing,in the multitude of words there lacketh not sin the Word also says.
first off, i don't go by Christian authorities when they go against The Bible.
Second, as for Genesis, by the time God arranged for Moses to have written things to compile, and/or revealed all that was needed, it was written in Hebrew, c. 1545 BC.
Prior to that, writings existed in Mesopotamia discussing The Flood, but warped due to the development of paganism and no sense of holy responsibility to keep a record pure of error.
Abraham came out of Ur of the Chaldees, which was literate. Writing was around even before that the Sumerians.
Abraham's family apparently kept pretty much to the Ya or YHWH (north Semitic version of the the name of Ea the only god in the Mesopotamian pantheons that the demons feared and the one who warned Utnapishtim, so this has to be a memory of YHWH before He was forgotten by most) faith, and would have had some records however parse.
Now, I NEVER claimed to be an expert in languages. you ask about delusion on my part, on the basis of things I never wrote or thought. How does lying sound as a problem of yours? Where did I even HINT I can speak any language other than English?
I don't need to do so, only to read what those who DO know this stuff have said.
Now, following authorities in one's religion is all very well, but you must always check them against the core material for they can go wrong.
Their only basis for authority is that they are correctly expounding your faith. So they should be able to prove it, or rather, what they say should stand up against what is written earlier.
As for Islam, sorry, but the fanatics in fact are closer to the dictates of the koran than the moderates, though you can treat the koran as giving fanatic violent recommendations only for some contexts.
In fact, the fanatics DO exceed the koran which says to not harm those who follow a religion of the book, incl. Christians, as long as they pay the dhimmi tax and don't try to harm moslems.
There are things in Shariah law which are contrary to koran and hadith, but not much. however, those that are, are damn serious for the wellbeing of moslems and non moslems.
I repeat, follow no authority in your religion beyond what the documents that authority claims to represent in fact support that authority.
By the way, how do you deal with this one. In Genesis, Jacob blesses his sons and says that the scepter and a lawgiver will not depart from Judah until Shiloh (he whose right it is to rule or something like that) comes.
Who is Shiloh? ask as many rabbis as possible about that one. Sooner or later one is bound to admit that that refers to the Messiah.
Now, Judah was ruled by Judaean lineage rulers spec. Davidic lineage, even the puppet rulers appointed by foreign kings, UNTIL HEROD, an Idumaean, not Judaean, not even Hebrew.
Guess Who else turned up about that time. The prophecies of the suffering servant in Isaiah are nowdays interpreted to mean the Jewish people, but how then is this person called all sorts of names like Prince of Peace and so forth, and takes our sins and so forth on him, and the rulership prophecies and dying prophecies about the Messiah can only be reconciled by a resurrection! and a second coming to fulfill all this.
"They will look on Him Who they have pierced" Zechariah I think it is, relevant to the Second Coming when the Jews will recognize Jesus is the Messiah.
I read that there was in some Jewish Messianic speculation the idea that there were two Messiahs, one that would die a Messiah ben Joseph and one that would rule forever, a Messiah ben David, to reconcile the two streams of Messianic prophecy. Another rabbi noted the strong hints of divinity about the Messiah in the OT, and rejecting this cursed any who said He is divine, that this would have to be a misinterpretation of these passages.
Do the research. A lot of Jews have done the research, and many converted to Christianity of one sort or another.
For those who want to know what the Talmud is about, there is an abridged version on the internet. English translations are sold through Amazon, so there are write ups there also. There are different compilations of the information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud "The whole Talmud consists of 63 tractates, and in standard print is over 6,200 pages long. It is written in Tannaitic Hebrew and Aramaic. The Talmud contains the opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including law, ethics, philosophy, customs, history, theology, lore and many other topics. The Talmud is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature."
The instant experts writing here probably can't pronounce the words much less understand what is written.
Those who want to have faith that all there is to know about the study of religion can be found in some translation or other of the New Testament and their particular interpretation are welcome to have faith wherever they can put it together. I won't tell them what to think.
I said Old Testament - that is Torah, Prophets, Writings, Psalms, etc. AND New Testament.
I have read several books of the Talmud some years ago. Granted it wasn't all 6300 pages. That wasn't available anyway, but several volumes were. I don't remember most of it, just the stuff that got my attention.
Ever heard of the Karaite Jews? I think the Jewish Encyclopedia online article I posted a link to mentions them. They rejected the Talmud as too removed from Torah. Too much innovation, too many removes in terms of authorities quoting authorities and (to use protestant terminology to describe what they wanted) the pure word of God was to be focussed on.
so you see, my remarks are not without precedent in Judaism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
they consider each Jew must study and decide its interpretation for himself. they got established in the early 7th century AD.
I might add, this is the same flaw in Christian circles as the Karaites saw in rabbinic circles.
Protestants draw heavily on various protestant writers of times past and modern hot shot prophecy experts and preachers to explain the Bible. RC depends on its traditional pile on pile the same sort of house of cards of authorities building on authorities. EO to a lesser extent falls into this, though the unchangeableness of liturgy and creed put a brake on this if the listener is paying attention and is hearing in their own language. These in turn derive directly from the Hebrew Scriptures mostly and some from the New Testament.
I might add, this is the same flaw in Christian circles as the Karaites saw in rabbinic circles.
Protestants draw heavily on various protestant writers of times past and modern hot shot prophecy experts and preachers to explain the Bible. RC depends on its traditional pile on pile the same sort of house of cards of authorities building on authorities. EO to a lesser extent falls into this, though the unchangeableness of liturgy and creed put a brake on this if the listener is paying attention and is hearing in their own language. These in turn derive directly from the Hebrew Scriptures mostly and some from the New Testament.
Did you realize that if a rabbi were to preach a sermon in Greek about the Messiah he would have to use the word Christos? That is Greek for Messiah.
So why don't you go find a list online of all the ways Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecy, then go to those points in the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) and try to prove it wrong.
Go find some ex rabbi online who converted to Christianity and find out why.
I am stating here firmly that I know a certain poster here who is a 10'6" red headed male who lives in a hut behind Burger King in the middle of Croatia. I know that. Trust me. She writes on papyrus which she rushes to the nearest Fedex and it appears quickly at this site. I know all about Fedex and papyrus so you know I'm telling the truth. I've written before about huts and have studied them in detail.
I know you all believe me because I am trustworthy and care deeply about my fellow woman. And I know all about the New Age movement because I trust Alex Jones, sometimes. However you have to be very careful not to trust everything he says. You know that.
I can't wait to share more about what I know with you. When I tell you about that Czekoslovakian Grove that is worse than Bohemian Grove, I'm sure you will thank me.
I can go on like this for many posts and just may if the mood strikes me and if the moon is high enough in the sky. After all I know all about ghosts and UFOs and wolves and what a witch told me once about Christine.
Evidently there are some here **!who know more than God!**so must post and post and post only to strain at gnats(pointless junk info)and swallow camels(choke on the Truth that would cut to the chase to discern the old old lies).
A catastrophic fail at helping people get to the actual Truth because the wade through %&*^)@%#$ is neck-deep and getting higher....
"Orthodox Jews are [not] going after your hides because they follow the law in the Talmud. What's it to you what they believe?"
The Christian answer is that the salvation of the Jews is tied up with the salvation of the whole world - which is not surprising given that the Jews remain a covenant people.
Talmud includes much that is good, but it is of man not of God, as proven by the fact that it references Torah thousands of times but not vice-versa.
The origins of the Book of Genesis came up in discussion above. Easily the most convincing view is that of the appropriately named PJ Wiseman, a member of the Brethren who served in the British Armed Forces in the Middle East between the wars. (His son became a professor of Assyriology at London U.) He recognized from his knowledge of how the ancients signified headings and "to be continued" at the top and bottom of ancient tablets that Moses compiled Genesis fro such tablets; Genesis preserves those indicators, also indicating its integrity as an unchanged text. Moreover there are no anachronisms within each of the segments of Genesis that he discerns according to the word TOLEDOTH ('generations'), strongly suggesting that the source tablets were contemporary with the events they describe. This hypothesis also gives a good explanation of the different names of God appearing in the Genesis compilation - different authors. Wiseman wrote his ideas up in several books as his understanding deepened; the best is "Ancient records and the structure of Genesis". For a summary, see:
Christine you have written, erroneously trying to correct me on something you obviously no nothing about (6:29 PM) : “The Talmud is NOT the thing that is alleged to be ancient oral tradition given to Moses, that is the Kabalah.”Christine, even wikipedia tells you the talmud is known [erroneously, I confess] as oral torah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah
You say you've read it? If so, well done, for it is very volumnous indeed!
There is much which is offensive to Christian and truly Tanakh following Jew alike.
There are two versions of talmud, the Jerusalem(Yerushalmi)Talmud and the Babylonian (Bavli) Talmud.
Many of editions of those which are written in English are edited so as not to cause controversy.
The talmud has some very unsavoury things to say about gentiles. That is why, without batting an eyelid, people such as Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro feel justified to write: "It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder."
Does this mean all Jews think like 'Rabbi' Yitzhak Shapiro? Certainly not! Neither is there any cause to be against Jews. For me, this evidences the truth, rather than take away from the truth that we are informed of in Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I am bored with your know-it-all atitude and Gnosis, Christine. I’ve tried with you, I really have, but you’re more interested in strutting about like a peacock, pretending your oh-so knowledgeable.
I shall try and refrain from posting too often, will you Christine?
I refer readers to Frank's comment that he knows little about Judaism, which is why he has to depend on his let's say very strange friends for things to write about it.
Readers who want the truth do not have to depend on what is posted here by anyone.
Put the ideas you want to learn more about into a search. Read as many links as you have time for.
The best use of this blog is to get leads for further information on the New Age movement. However, do searches to see whether what is posted here actually has something to do with the New Age movement or if it is just some topic another person finds interesting. Constance's posts are the only ones that should be understood clearly as being connected with the New Age movement as she is an expert on the topic.
Regarding Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, several things must be taken into account. His school is located in the West Bank which is a place where there have been many brutal killings of Jews by Palestinians. It is a war zone. The number of missiles sent into Israel by Palestinians has necessitated bomb shelters where Jews can go on a moment's notice.
One cannot expect Israelis to sit by and allow themselves to be killed without retaliation. In the retaliation there will be civilian killings. His comment was to answer the question whether retaliation can take place where there is a chance that innocent lives will be taken. In that Palestinians deliberately set up missile sites out of civilian areas, how should it be answered.
Note his comment about seven commandments. Those are the Noahide commandments which Jews believe were given to all mankind, not the 613 by which Orthodox Jews attempt to live or the ten commandments usually referred to.
Now New Age comes into the picture here. New Age demonizes Orthodox Jews in particular. There are New Age Jews, although they probably don't know themselves by that label, in Israel and the rest of the world. They use every opportunity to demonize Orthodox Jews for the same reasons all New Agers do. Then there are those who believe peace can be reached if one side, the Jewish side, is peaceful, because then the Palestinians and Muslims will automatically become peaceful. Then you have the standard antisemites who will attack Jews, hiding their agenda while pretending to be gentle folk. It's a standard propaganda practice these days.
One quote from an Orthodox Jew, taken out of context, gets much publicity from these sources as shown by a Google search. It's as if a quote from a Dominion Christian would be taken out of context to show all Christians have a power hungry political aspect to their agenda.
Christine, you also stated: "Where in the Torah is oral tradition mentioned as a valid issue? Where in the Prophets?"
Earlier, Christine, I showed you a verse (13) from Mark 7. If you’d been as the Berean Greek, you’d have known that just preceding this verse the Lord Jesus Christ tells us the prophet Isiaiah shows how the traditions of men (oral tradition – often now written) contradict the word of God. Remember our discussion about honoring one’s parents? Well, the Fifth Commandment (from the Torah, that is, the genuine one) is what is being discussed in verses 10 to 12 of Mark 7. Showing how the stench of gnostic pompous laws of the oral traditions, which happens to be what the talmud is full of, contradict the laws of God.
Isaiah 29:13-16(KJV)
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Mark 7 (KJV)
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Do you believe Jesus Christ's words on this Christine?
I don't ask you to trust me, but re-iterate St. Paul in emploring all to be as Berean Greeks and search the Holy Scriptures diligently to see if a matter is true or not. I personally believe Jesus Christ's words and also believe Him where in Matthew 5, verses 17 -18, He says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
And remember Romans 3:3 -4 :
"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
I suggest you also check out the so-called Noahide laws not found anywhere in the Holy Bible, which the Unholy talmud advocates, and how they contradict the Torah and Prophets as well as the New Testament. Under these laws (which some look fine on the surface of things – but dig deeper, because they’ve clauses and clarifications) Christians are called Idolaters, the punishment of which, is death by beheading!
P.S., 1:01PM (I’m sure regular posters know who you are, spitting venom from the weeds – coward!) The more you do this, the more I will expose and shine the light of truth in those vile crevices of man made tradition, gnosticism and darkness.
"comment about seven commandments. Those are the Noahide commandments which Jews believe were given to all mankind, not the 613 by which Orthodox Jews attempt to live or the ten commandments usually referred to. Now New Age comes into the picture here. New Age demonizes Orthodox Jews in particular. There are New Age Jews, although they probably don't know themselves by that label, in Israel and the rest of the world. They use every opportunity to demonize Orthodox Jews for the same reasons all New Agers do. Then there are those who believe peace can be reached if one side, the Jewish side, is peaceful, because then the Palestinians and Muslims will automatically become peaceful."
I regard this as a mixture. No Jew or Christian could possibly object to the Noahide commands, but I doubt that they were given to all the world or they would be in the parts of the Book of Genesis that relate to all mankind, prior to the dispersion and the covenant with Abraham. This claim is in the same apocryphal category as the notion that God offered the Law to all the peoples of the world and only the Jews said Yes, which is an obvious example of Jewish pride. (In case you suspect I am antisemitic - I am not ashamed that my Messiah was and is a Jew.)
New Age demonizes Orthodox Jews AND CHRISTIANS - people who have accurate scriptures about the true God. As for the New Age Jews who don't know themselves by that label, aren't they the Kabbalists?
Finally, I totally agree that the Jewish nation has the right of self-defense in the Holy Land from the people of Islam, an aggressive creed as the koran makes clear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws "Noachide Laws comprise the six laws which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8] and a seventh one, which was added after the Flood of Noah. Later, at the Revelation at Sinai, the Seven Laws of Noah were re-given to humanity and embedded in the 613 Laws given to the Children of Israel along with the Ten Commandments,
The Hebrew Bible does not explicitly mention the Law in connection with Noah, nor that there were seven laws.
After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9):
Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it], you shall not eat." (9:4)
Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5–6)"
Until the giving of the commandments on Sinai, humanity was bound by the laws given in the Garden of Eden. To say there were no laws given by God to humanity in general would suggest that lawlessness was God's method for humanity that did not specifically receive commandments.
2:23 New Age Jews are not kabbalists any more than Christian New Agers are. (You do know there is something called Christian Kabbalah don't you?) They are people who believe they have a better way for humanity to live by than that which is found in the Bible. New Age ideas are those they follow.
Christians are target, but not all who call themselves Christian are targeted. Only fundamentalist Christians. Social justice Christians fit right in as do Jews who have left their religion behind.
I don't want to go into a belief in Christian mystical beliefs. They do not make someone a Christian New Ager.
To suggest that most of the Noahide laws can be derived from Genesis 2:16 is nonsensical eisegesis. There was only one law in the Garden of Eden: Do not eat the fruit of a particular tree.
There was no need for any other laws at that point, because it never entered Adam and Eve's heads to murder or to do other bad things before they ate the forbidden fruit.
After that unhappy event, laws were needed, and God moved to provide them in His own time. He made it clear that murder was a bad thing in the tale of Cain and Abel even though no legislation yet existed. He added the no-murder law after the Flood, and the no-undrained-meat law (which too few Christians today understand applies to them). Why no laws immediately after the fruit-eating? Well, what do you think Adam and Eve's reaction would have been once God had issued those curses?
It would have been counter-productive for God to issue laws until people were willing to take them seriously. But everybody was hard-hearted since Genesis 3. So He waited until He had rescued a set of people from an impossible situation, and they were then willing to listen to Him.
Anon at 2:54 PM, you have written very succinctly and truthfully indeed: "OK, 2.40pm, not all New Age Jews are Kabbalists, but all Kabbalistic Jews are New Age Jews."
"Christian Kabbalists? There's a guy in a nearby town who calls himself a "Christian agnostic" and picks and chooses his verses and doctrines. People can call themselves what they like but it is Christ who will decide."
I agree with you entirely.
However, I will add something very important to this discussion and that is that NOT all Jews follow the Talmud, or know precisely what it entails even if they do, and that the Unholy talmud contradicts the Holy Tanakh.
Many Jews do not have anything to do with kabbalah nor even remotely understand what dangers and evil is contained therein (even though quite a few Rabbis sadly practise it).
And of course, there are Jews, both Messianic and sadly not yet, who know both the dangers in the talmud and the kabbalah (including zohar) and they oppose both.
What I post I post in a love for God and His Truth, and a love for both Jew and Gentile alike.
2:49 PM, I agree entirely with you: "To suggest that most of the Noahide laws can be derived from Genesis 2:16 is nonsensical eisegesis. There was only one law in the Garden of Eden: Do not eat the fruit of a particular tree... It would have been counter-productive for God to issue laws until people were willing to take them seriously. But everybody was hard-hearted since Genesis 3. So He waited until He had rescued a set of people from an impossible situation, and they were then willing to listen to Him. "
Hi Frank, this is Anon@2.54pm and in fact I'm the guy who was discussing karma with you earlier. Greetings in Christ and thank you for your kind words at 4.49pm.
Talmud is partly good, partly bad, but the point is not whether it is good or bad but whether it is of God or man. We agree that it is of man.
New Age aint so new either - Irenaeus gave it a good beating when it was called Gnosticism shortly after Christ.
"according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8]"
Instead, why don't you write, according to the gnostic traditions of men?
For that's all the talmud's position on this is, and the talmud contradicts the Holy Tanakh! So what will it be? Will you be hard-hearted in pride and follow the teachings of men in the Unholy Talmud, or give God's Word and Truth a try as told by Moses and the Prophets, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the Holy Tanakh!
2:49 - Since what is called the Old Testament is the Jewish religion, I will listen to those authorities. Why oh why should I listen to an anonymous person who documents nothing. The Bible has a history. I don't disregard that history in favor of personal speculation.
Frank - forget it. You have no idea what information sensible people share among each other. Others may listen to you. Free will and all that.
"according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8]"
Instead, why don't you write, according to the gnostic traditions of men?
For that's all the talmud's position on this is, and the talmud contradicts the Holy Tanakh! So what will it be? Will you be hard-hearted in pride and follow the teachings of men in the Unholy Talmud, or give God's Word and Truth a try as told by Moses and the Prophets, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the Holy Tanakh!
5:02 PM, we want you to listen to the authorities of the Holy Tanakh (otherwise known as the Old Testament), rather than the evil gnosticism and traditions of men found in the Unholy Talmud and Unholy Zohar aka Unholy Kabbalah!
Why not try Proverbs ["MÃshlê Shlomoh"] written down by Solomon, I like Chapter 30 verse 4 (KJV) myself:
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His Fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the Earth? What is His Name, AND WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, IF THOU CANST TELL?"
Isaiah is another favorite of mine, in Chapter 7 Verse 14 (KJV) we read:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel".
(Immanuel means God with us by the way).
Or how about Isaiah Chapter 9, Verses 6, 7, & 8:
6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
7 "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."
8 "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel."
1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"
2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."
4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."
5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
7 "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."
8 "He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."
9 "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."
10 "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."
11 "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
12 "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Furthermore, I challenge you, turn from the evil traps set in the wicked talmud and accept the wisdom, more precious than silver, to be found throughout the Holy Tanakh (Old Testament), including the conclusion that an honest reader and earnest seeker must come to, that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and that the Messiah is divine and God the Son as illustrated by the Prophets! The importance of doing this is reiterated in what Ezekiel, inspired by the Holy Spirit, has written down, where we find the Lord God pleading in love:
Ezekiel 18:31
"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
Ezekiel 33:11
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
There are many many more of great interest, including that which I posted earlier. So, go on -give it a try, you can't lose!
You wrote, in response to mine of 2.49pm, "Since what is called the Old Testament is the Jewish religion, I will listen to those authorities. Why oh why should I listen to an anonymous person who documents nothing. The Bible has a history. I don't disregard that history in favor of personal speculation."
If you don't want to listen to me then why do you reply? And if you reply then why do you insult rather than refute?
Sure the Tanakh has a history, and we probably agree about it. So does the Talmud, and that is where we differ.
A point made in my challenge to you, 5:02 PM, should read: 'Messiah is Divine'. You see, only God is Divine, we ourselves are NOT Divine Sparks. To claim otherwise is blasphemy!
Why do I reply Frank? It's because you distort what Judaism is about to those who read here. You view Judaism not in a neutral manner, but through what you have read and believe. I can see you have done no research on your own.
There is no difference between how you view Judaism and how some uninformed Jews view Christianity. I have seen written reports of the ugly things Christians have done to Jews. These timelines go on for many, many pages. Those who put these timelines together believe that Christians cannot be trusted as they will turn on Jews in an eye blink. They believe it is because of what Christians believe. In the last 100 years millions of Jews were killed in Christian countries. All of the research showing that it was not believing Christians who did these things will not change the minds of people whose minds are set on the historical record. That these things were done in the name of Christianity means nothing to them.
There are many beliefs in Christianity that have been challenged by those outside that faith. Because you have not heard them does not mean they do not exist. Would you hearing them change your faith? I doubt it. I'm not about to present them here.
I see Christianity in another light. Those who believe firmly in Christianity follow it.
You have your faith and I have mine. Except at the academic level these challenges to each other's faith are never heard. That's important. Uninformed people talking away to other uninformed people only leads to confrontation. In my opinion what would be the purpose?
Christians contribute in a positive manner to a community moral belief system that I support, I'm not about to go head to head on theological, historical differences. Judaism believes that an individual owes a responsibility to God and to other members of the community. I am trying to live up to that without attacking Christian beliefs.
It's not my role to pat you on the head for accepting some Jewish beliefs. I do not in turn have to accept Christian theological beliefs. Christianity is based on Jewish beliefs which continued on after Christianity took political hold. I can just agree with you on moral beliefs that affect community members that we hold in common. That's as far as I will go. Your distortion of what Judaism is about hurts that alliance.
I know you cannot accept this. For you knowing that you are right about your religion is more important than anything else. I feel no need to go in that direction.
"There is no difference between how you view Judaism and how some uninformed Jews view Christianity. I have seen written reports of the ugly things Christians have done to Jews. These timelines go on for many, many pages. Those who put these timelines together believe that Christians cannot be trusted as they will turn on Jews in an eye blink. They believe it is because of what Christians believe. In the last 100 years millions of Jews were killed in Christian countries. All of the research showing that it was not believing Christians who did these things will not change the minds of people whose minds are set on the historical record. That these things were done in the name of Christianity means nothing to them."
I can tell that this is not your own position, and I am glad of that. I too have read those horrendous reports, although anybody who thinks that the New Testament encourages such behavior needs to read it for themselves. I am not convinced that the maltreatment of Jews at the hands of self-proclaimed Christians makes that less likely, for if someone is oppressing me I want to know what drives them. For instance, Islam is going to be a real threat to my land in a generation's time and that is precisely why I looked at the koran. I'd never have bothered if Islam had remained in the Middle East rather than colonising European cities.
Two points:
1. The phrase "In the name of Christianity" makes no sense. You can have "In the name of Christ" or "In the name of the church." There is a big historical difference between the two, unhappily.
2. There is no such thing as a "Christian country". There never has been and there never will be until Christ returns. The New Covenant is with the individual believer. Christians have often influenced the laws of their lands for the better but no gentile nation has a national covenant with God. That is Israel's unique privilege.
where is oral law considered a valid issue - I said a VALID ISSUE that is something true and worthy and from God, not merely that it exists. No the Talmud is NOT "full" of contradiction to the Torah but it does have some contradiction.
the existence of traditions of men going astray from Torah is as you point out mentioned in the prophets and exemplified in the wrong extension of the law that tolerated levirate marriage (which first appears in Judah's family with Canaanite women then caught on) to incl. men not living with the couple at the husband's death see Book of Ruth.
As for such discussions not being heard outside of academia, that is ridiculous. I see you are unable to answer the claims of Christ/Messiah or afraid to research them lest you find you can't answer them, and are falling back on social propriety (what pettiness).
you have your faith and we have ours?
We have our faith many of us because we examined our previous WRONG faiths and found the right one, whether they be gnosticism variants, overt atheism some formal religion, or whatever, those of us who converted to Christianity and weren't raised in it.
Faith isn't about make believe and social identity. It is about matters as serious as electronics.
suppose you took your attitude about faith and applied it to wiring a house, and insisted on using the inadequate and electrocution causing no grounding wires etc. rules of long ago?
I distort nothing! It is sad you cannot see the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha'Mashiach) the Only Begotten Son of God through Whom all things were made, so brilliantly prophesied and spoken of throughout the Tanakh, as illustrated by the Holy Scripture from the Holy Tanakh I have just shared with you. Go back, read them again, I urge you.
I do not agree that the talmud and zohar-kabbalah are true Judaism, in fact I believe that such have led Jews astray, and have sadly and wrongly helped result in much Jewish suffering, including that of Tanakh believing and Messianic Jews. The talmud is Pharisaism (also spelled phariseeism) not true Judaism.
[ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Phariseeism ]
I believe Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha'Mashiach) on this issue, He's a Jew too you know!
I have cousins who racially are half German-Jewish and who had family members suffer during the Holocaust, I feel very humble to write this but is is true. They themselves believe in Jesus Christ and folllow Him. I love them very dearly and would give my own life not only to defend them but any Jew that was in danger. I despise Anti-Semitism, but I see not telling the truth as adding to Anti-Semitism.
[Very long sentence following]
When ignorant people, especially those ignorant of God's Love, find out about the evil things in kabbalah and in talmud, such as the Noahide (Noachide) laws and how such describe worshipping Jesus Christ as idolotous for which they should be put to death by beheading, yet don't understand this is a spiritual battle and we fight not flesh and blood,and that the Devil has tricked Jewish people into promoting this because he wants to destroy both Christians and Jews spiritually and / or physically, when ignorant people discover this, and then are told they're being Anti-Semitic or dangerous for exposing it, this SADLY and WRONGLY helps to cause many of them to become Anti-Semitic.
Sadly, not all who profess ot being Chrisitans are able to rightly spiritually discern (such discernment comes by following what is written in Holy Scripture and by being guided by the Holy Spirit).
These too may find out about the Noachide laws, the blasphemies contained in the talmud against Jesus Christ, and the witchcraft of Kabbalah. I repeat not all of those Christians realise that this is a spiritual war, and that we fight not flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places, and furthermore not all of those Christians realise that many Jews do not realise the filth contained within the talmud, its Noachide laws, and the Zohar Kabbalah, and many others who do, reject talmud, its Noachide laws, and Zohar-Kabbalah, such as the followers of Karaite Judaism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism ), and Messianic Jews.
Romans 2:28-29 :
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
I have made clear in my posts so far that I understand many Jewish people even practitioners do not see the evil involved in Zohar-Kabbalah, just as many practising New Agers see no harm in practising their false beliefs, but such are wrong.
If you're aware, poster, of those contents contained within the sub-clauses of the seven Noachide laws which call Christians idolaters and call for their death by beheading, and if you're aware of the blasphemous things said against the Messiah within talmud and yet deny they are there, then you must realise that such denial sadly assists the WARPED THINKING OF SOME THAT MAY SAY THEY ARE CHRISTIANS yet are unable to rightly spiritually discern. Such may still discover the contents of the Noahide laws and learn about the dangerous and disgusting things against Christians contained in the so-called Noahide Laws (which have many sub-laws, not just the original 7 which at first glance don't seem too bad).
They, and others reading there comments online who may not be Christians even in name, may see this as a fleshly threat coming from the Jews (not even distinguishing at all), rather than recognizing it as a spiritual one for which the Devil and his fallen angels and only those deliberately diseminating it are to blame. Yet even those who say they are Jews, but are only one outwardly, and are of the Synagogue of Satan, intent on murdering Christians should not be hurt physically at all. For as Christians we are to love our enemies, and not fight flesh and blood but fight spiritually, expose, exhort, rebuke and refute, encourage or discourage, but never raise a violent hand!
I have made clear in my posts so far, and repeat here that I understand many Jewish people even practitioners do not see the evil involved in Zohar-Kabbalah, just as many practising New Agers see no harm in practising their false beliefs, but such are wrong.
My position as a Christian towards others is to love them.
Suppose there's a man called Fred on the block who looks out his slightly ajar window on the second floor every morning, and he loves to be spoken gently and politely to, and loves to receive a gentle wave every morning from his neighbors passing by, and doesn't like to hear things that may worry him. Suppose one morning Flames and smoke are seen rising from Fred's home. Passers by notice it yet Fred hasn't realised the great danger that he may perish in the flames. George passes by and gives him his usual friendly wave and gentle greeting, he sees the danger but says nothing (hoping it'll go away) not wanting to worry Fred, yet steven rushes up and shouts at Fred, 'FRED! GET OUT NOW! YOUR HOME'S ON FIRE! OR YOU'LL PERISH!, Steven's waving is not gentle but is vehement. Please tell me, who has shown love? Surely Steven!
I am commanded by God to spread the Gospel, sound the trumpet where danger lurks, to shine the light of the Gospel and expose and rebuke wickedness hiding in the darkness.
I will continue to warn of danger, stand up against bullies and false doctrines, and if I won't (which I will not) support false teachings even by silence elsewhere, why should I stay silent about those false teachings which do now distort much of the Jewish people's thinking. I love Jews and believe they have a right to hear the Gospel too. Besides, I am to please God rather than man.
It is not my intention to hurt you, poster, and I am saddened if that is so, but it is my intention to rebuke bullying and false teachings which come against Holy Scripture. Many, many Jews and Christians have been murdered throughout history - often by those who pretend they belong to either group and evidently there actionsa show they do not!
I beseech people, research the Noahide laws, and the Lubervitcher Chabad, as well as Rabbi Schneerson and their influence on US Government policy making. The Noahide laws are in part already US law, since George Bush Snr signed them into law, for whatever reason.
Revelation 20:4 :
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Kabbalah... The Perpetuated Evil 1/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frw6W1UiLjk
Kabbalah... The Perpetuated Evil 2/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKh8iZRFA40
Kabbalah... The Perpetuated Evil 3/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88mqj-ID7dg
Kabbalah Secrets Revealed! An Expose 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70P_13nVG0w
Kabbalah Secrets Revealed! An Expose 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COPWJeMV7AU
Madonna's Kabbalah Center Exposed !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nyJAj-4AUM
Revelation 3:9
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you."
Ephesians 6:12: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
No Christine, not merely some of the talmud but much of the talmud's content is contrary to God's Law in the Holy Tanakh (and New Testament too, this contains books inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by Jews too you know). Moreover, the whole notion of the talmud, spiritually speaking, and the talmud's legalism are totally contrary to God's Law.
You continued in 11:17 AM, and here I totally agree with you: "As for such discussions not being heard outside of academia, that is ridiculous. I see you are unable to answer the claims of Christ/Messiah or afraid to research them lest you find you can't answer them, and are falling back on social propriety (what pettiness)."
"You have your faith and we have ours?"
"We have our faith many of us because we examined our previous WRONG faiths and found the right one, whether they be gnosticism variants, overt atheism some formal religion, or whatever, those of us who converted to Christianity and weren't raised in it."
Very well put!
Frank.
Faith isn't about make believe and social identity. It is about matters as serious as electronics.
suppose you took your attitude about faith and applied it to wiring a house, and insisted on using the inadequate and electrocution causing no grounding wires etc. rules of long ago?
I signed in the midst of the citation of Christine's comment on last post. I'll try again:
No Christine, not merely some of the talmud but much of the talmud's content is contrary to God's Law in the Holy Tanakh (and New Testament too, this contains books inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by Jews too you know). Moreover, the whole notion of the talmud, spiritually speaking, and the talmud's legalism are totally contrary to God's Law.
You continued in 11:17 AM, and here I totally agree with you: "As for such discussions not being heard outside of academia, that is ridiculous. I see you are unable to answer the claims of Christ/Messiah or afraid to research them lest you find you can't answer them, and are falling back on social propriety (what pettiness)."
"You have your faith and we have ours?"
"We have our faith many of us because we examined our previous WRONG faiths and found the right one, whether they be gnosticism variants, overt atheism some formal religion, or whatever, those of us who converted to Christianity and weren't raised in it."
"Faith isn't about make believe and social identity. It is about matters as serious as electronics."
"Suppose you took your attitude about faith and applied it to wiring a house, and insisted on using the inadequate and electrocution causing no grounding wires etc. rules of long ago?"
I have just posted some videos and am immediately reposting 2 of them because I want to reiterate the importance of watching them. I URGE all to see the excellent expose posted by a brave Christian, whose videos I follow, Susan (SEK4110).
She exposes the evil kabbalah by showing the admissions made by Doreen Dotan, a kabbalist who calls herself a jew but is of the synagogue of Satan. Very important expose, friends.
Btw, I would defend (by housing and hiding, feeding etc, and by speaking out against false doctrines and beliefs)Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, even New Agers if I thought their lives were in danger.
I would not encourage false belief and practise though and would defend their right to hear the truth of the Gospel and rebuke and correct them even unto the death, because they or others may even kill my body for doing so.
I believe that apart from Jesus of Nazareth, who is both God and Messiah, all men have fallen short of the Glory of God and their righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. The only way to Father God is through His Son Jesus Christ, by the Great Price the Messiah God the Son Jesus of Nazareth paid for us all by becoming a propitiation, as was foretold by Isaiah:
Isaiah 53 Verses 3 -
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for OUR transgressions, he was bruised for OUR iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Wake up Dorothy! And repent! For God is not a respecter of persons, God is not racist! For why will you die in your sins? Stop defending Kabbalah witchcraft, which is condemned in Deuteronomy 18, believe in Jesus Christ, that He died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead, and be saved!
For there is no difference between Jew or Greek [Gentile] for those in Christ Jesus. For those who remained in God and obeyed Him He protected, and those who did not obey Him perished, just look at the disobedient in Exodus versus the obedient. Also, Ruth who was a Gentile became a great prophet under God, so much so that what she wrote, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is prominently included in the Holy Tanakh! God is Unchanging and is Just and Faithful and True.
I do not boast against you but I do plead with you to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, for their is Salvation in no other, we are not saved just by virtue of our genes.
Stop defending Kabbalah, that is witchcraft which the Lord abhors!
Read Isaiah 53, if you cannot see that all of this chapter clearly speaks about the crucifixion, and the propitiation of Jesus Christ shedding His blood to pay for OUR transgressions then you are blind and should pray for the Lord God to reveal Himself and His Word to you through His Holy Spirit, the Person of the Holy Spirit.
I mistakenly wrote: 'I do not boast against you but I do plead with you to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, for their is Salvation in no other, we are not saved just by virtue of our genes.'
I should have written:
'I do not boast against you but I do plead with you to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, for there is Salvation in no other than Him, we are not saved by 'virtue' of our genes.
What I've just written is clearly illustrated in Holy Scripture (If you search the Holy Tanakh you will also find the truth of the New Testament written there also (as much of the text below clearly indicates).
You see, I believe what God shows me is true Judaism, through the Holy Tanakh (Old Testament) and the New Testament. I do not believe Phariseeism is true Judaism, just as Jesus Christ the Messiah didn't, and I believe Him, for we should trust and believe God rather than man.
There is no point in exposing the New Age Movement if you are double minded because you support the practice of Kabbalah:
Romans 2
http://kingjbible.com/romans/2.htm )
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."
"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."
"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "
Matthew 15:22 - 28
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh."
Romans 10:4 -13
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
You see, I believe in the charge given to all Christians in 2 Timothy
2 Timothy 4: 1 to 8
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
I also believe that which is written in Titus 2:15 :
"These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
In 1 Timothy 4: 16, it is written:
"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."
And remember Proverbs 30 verse 4 which I cited earlier?:
Proverbs 30:4
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
Well, in Proverbs 30 verses 5 to 6 we read:
"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
I suggest you read the whole chapter:
http://kingjbible.com/proverbs/30.htm
Hopefully, you will then pray in humble earnest honesty that which is written in Proverbs 30 verses 7, 8, & 9:
"Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."
Ephesians 5: 11 to 14
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."
Anon, 11:27 AM, I respect the fact that this is Constance's blog.
However, I am clogging nothing, neither am I diverting from the subject of her current topic.
In case you hadn't realised, today is October 17th, 2012 and I have been posting AT LENGTH on the pages of Constance's previous topic, "PLEASE WATCH THIS: REV. E. W. JACKSON!!!", posted September 25th, 2012, which is this page right here!
Constance has already posted a new topic: "Texas school punishes microchip tracking dissenters".
I am very grateful to Constance, as I initially posted about this as a comment on this previous topic's pages, although I failed to sign it:(about 4th post from bottom of 1st page: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=11772087&postID=2080129696587127873 ) 'Texas schools punish students who refuse to be tracked with microchips'
Constance posted this new topic on Monday October 15th 2012 (although obviously my comment regards it was made earlier, here on the pages of the previous topic, which I point out only to show that sticking to topic is important yet doesn't exclude posting other important material).
So you see, much of what I've written here, has been on or after the 15th of October, 2012, on the previous topic's page. Therefore, I am not clogging the site so as to hijack the current topic. Also, the posts just now are continuations as I quite clearly have indicated, I had finished writing those particular comments, which we all needed in conjuction with one another to put my points into context, and then came your comment.
Moreover, you should realise that I shall obey God rather than man!
Pay attention:
Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
I correct this clause of the previous post: '...which we all needed in conjuction with one another to put my points into context...'
I should have written and meant to write, 'were' not 'we', so that the clause would read: '...which were all needed in conjuction with one another to put my points into context...'
Yes, that's who I am and have legally used the name Francis also, for which Frank is an abbreviation. So you do know me Dorothy, don't you!
By the way, I thought I'd just add that when God is about to make mankind, He refers to Himself in the plural:
Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
To Whom then does the Us refer to?I tell you God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. These Three are One and in total agreement eternally. Praise be to God in the Highest and peace to His people on Earth.
Yes, that's who I am and have legally used the name Francis also, for which Frank is an abbreviation. So you do know me Dorothy, don't you!
By the way, I thought I'd just add that when God is about to make mankind, He refers to Himself in the plural:
Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
To Whom then does the Us refer to? I tell you God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These Three are One and in total agreement eternally. Praise be to God in the Highest and peace to His people on Earth.
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372 comments:
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EPA can do secret dangerous experiments on non volunteers because of exemptions in the rules that in theory prohibit this.
No they didn't actually fly. That was a false impression they had due to some psychoactive drugs they were using and probably bounded some using poles. Also bilocation is likely. Some very strange experiences were had by people who tested belladonna.
The demon per se is a spirit, the effects, the residuum, the growing ickyness and especially if it be from a not directly demon but human source, the interface between spirit and matter, that is the point I am talking about.
Eventually I had to get the house I was living in blessed two or three times by an Orthodox priest. This made a big difference.
The witches at issue were not always mere social pariahs. I have read a lot during the days of my teens when I wanted to practice this stuff, though I didn't want to sell my soul or strike bargains like that, and I have read the Malleus Maleficarum.
Modern witches, well, what were you dealing with? wicca? traditional witchcraft? what?
When the medieval accusations strongly parallel actual beliefs and practices in East Anglia and the Ozarks, obviously it is a case of where there is smoke there is fire.
A Spanish Inquisition judge got some of the flying ointment and smeared it on a dog. dog didn't go anywhere. judge concluded something was wrong with the usual picture painted.
The canon episcopi denounced the belief in the reality of such escapades as a heresy.
But going to meetings and engaging in specific acts to cause harm or other things and keeping demon familiars, and so forth? and some bilocation activity thought to be physical under the influence of drugs? yes.
Transformation? did any of the witches you dealt with speak of the socalled "fetch?"
Again, an astral extension or a bilocation with transformation in the astral body not the physical.
Some people could probably be such strong telepathic senders that they could create an illusion of change to the physical eyes of the viewer.
I doubt the physical body ever did any changing, or not much.
there is no contradiction in what I said. Yes, probably many BUT NOT ALL were innocent. torture got some details and more names. But the reasons people were arrested aside from being named, were for stuff that would get anyone into spiritual warfare to sit up and take notice now.
a ludicrous note, some modern witch got mad at someone and turned him into a frog, or so the spell was supposed to do.
the target didn't visibly turn into a frog, but he spent two or three weeks hopping about and croaking. Seems it had quite an impact on his mind.
Perhaps in a less Christian influence soaked geographic environment, some illusion of physical change would have occurred as well. The early church dealt with some such incidents and concluded the physical change was an illusion, not a reality.
"The witches at issue were not always mere social pariahs."
You say it. Now prove it.
"I have read a lot during the days of my teens when I wanted to practice this stuff, though I didn't want to sell my soul or strike bargains like that, and I have read the Malleus Maleficarum."
And it's nonsense, isn't it? All I know has come from repented witches and other occultists who are now Christians, and what they got up to is nothing like the MM which was clearly written by medieval men who had prior conceptions and wild torture confessions before them.
"Modern witches, well, what were you dealing with? wicca? traditional witchcraft? what?"
Various. Including in London, USA and South Africa.
"When the medieval accusations strongly parallel actual beliefs and practices in East Anglia and the Ozarks, obviously it is a case of where there is smoke there is fire."
Get specific Christine. What practices?
Seven out of the last eight posts are from you Christine. All have nothing to do with the New Age movement. From your previous posts it's obvious you know little, if nothing, about the New Age movement. On another note, has anyone followed up on their own on what John Rupp and another anonymous poster wrote about the New Age meeting? Can you share what you've found? I have some things I would like to post, but unless there are more people knowledgeable about the movement, sharing what I've found is rather a waste of time. Serious posting takes effort. That's why.
get specific - torture of toads to get the toad bone. various folk magic practices - I do not want to turn this post into a grimoire for everyone. sexual practices in initiations. cross roads locations. concepts that add up to invocations of or offers to the devil. some rather specific. dumb supper which on at least one occasion caused a man great trauma, and years later when he met the woman who had done the dumb supper and acquired some object from the man who was dragged in (forced astral projection) and he recognized it, he said "you are the witch who did that to me, I walked through hell that night" and stabbed her. This was in the Ozarks.
the fetch - you did not answer me as to whether this was mentioned by your repentant ex witches. Witchcraft is two things, a false religion (which dominates in the modern scene) and a technology some of which is directly dependent on demonic involvement.
Did they mention sending out a "fetch"?
I have posted several things that are new age movement in its new world order format relevant.
you say I know nothing about the New Age Movement.
Please tell me what you think it is?
(I suspect you will limit yourself entirely to its political manifestations.)
No Christine, they did not mention the Fetch to me. But if I wanted to learn about witchcraft - which I don't - then, based on what you have written on this blog, I would go to them rather than to you.
Why don't you put more of your writing on your own blog and less here?
sending the fetch - it is a kind of mental projection or outright bilocation. Most modern witches don't even know about this stuff that much.
This is the source of the idea of witches becoming cats or rats or whatever. Either such a person riding on one, seeing through their eyes and maybe being noticed by a sensitive, or out and about in that form, but not a physical transformation, but might be visible in some cases.
I put a lot of stuff on my blog. some things I think are not a good idea to go into in depth.
I have at least two embedded Constance Cumbey videos there. What you will get from modern witches is only a little bit relevant to the traditional scene, which often scoffs at wiccans as "fluff bunnies," and work at redefining the do as you will so long as it harm none "rede" to eliminate the no harm, either outright or by redefining harm out of existence.
if you want to learn more, go lurk on some yahoo egroups.
that doesn't mean modern wicca isn't a conveyorbelt to and ennabler for the devil, but that the medieval stuff was closer to overt devil worship, and real. Also, the medieval witches often had high class connections and participants, and political agendas. Look for a book by skeptic but historian Kittredge on the subject, Witchcraft in Old and New England. you would be surprised.
Even now, the illuminai Bohemian Grove and New World Order elites are into devil worship some of them, and have occultism agendas back of their political games, which by the way are not limited to stuff on the left. They control left and right and play us for fools (the so called third position fascism is just another of theirs also). In the US alone, there are networks overlapping interests in the occult, pedophilia, and politics that run from thugs to elected and appointed officials even at the federal level, some police and judges and so forth. One of the guys with the ATF who insisted on continuing the raid at Waco, after the cover was blown (probably a deliberate leak) and thus guaranteed the conflagration, was recognized by someone I know as having been at a human sacrifice even that person I know had attended, years ago.
Christine, it is important that you admit you were wrong when you claimed that Ecclesiastes talks about or alludes to chakras. You even specified verses (16, 17, 18)which do not exist in Ecclesiastes Chapter 12, which has only 14 verses.
Can you admit this Christine or I must ask you to examine yourself regards spiritual pride.
It is a shame that you have chosen to continue to lean on your own understanding and gnosis.
Meddling with the powers that lyingly pertain to chakras (there's no such thing as chakras) is witchcraft. You need to turn away from all beliefs which do not edify you and are contrary to Christianity. I say this for your soul's sake.
Listen to other Christians, do not push them into having to treat you as a heathen and therefore have nothing to do with you.
Concerned,
Frank.
Christine, you asked me if my repented ex-occultist acquaintances had told me about the Fetch. I said No, and that I didn't want to learn more about witchcraft than I already knew. You then blurted out your knowledge of the Fetch - knowledge which my acquaintances might know but not have shared with me, and which I also find I could readily have got via Google. I suspect you were driven to blurt by a need to show your knowledge to readers of this blog. Do you post so copiously here because you are driven by a need to interact, which you would not get on your own blog?
IF people really can do remote viewing, perhaps through the eyes of animals, then it is intrinsically a demonic phenomenon. Humans simply cannot do that in their own strength. On what grounds are you so confident it can be done? I recall that you once claimed here that that you could develop the capacity to have conversations with animals. But it's not you that would need to develop that capacity, it's the animal - and it can't, because its much simpler brain is not wired for speech and the concepts conveyed in verbal conversation. These are some of the things that comprise the image of God in us but not in animals.
P.S., Christine, normally a '?' is required where I've punctuated with a full-stop.
You decide through your repentance or rebellious nature where the exclamation mark, '!', should go here.
Frank
Hello Anon 5:50 PM, you wrote: "IF people really can do remote viewing, perhaps through the eyes of animals, then it is intrinsically a demonic phenomenon."
I completely agree with you on this.
Christian love,
Frank.
Hello Anon 5:50 PM, you wrote: "IF people really can do remote viewing, perhaps through the eyes of animals, then it is intrinsically a demonic phenomenon."
I completely agree with you on this.
Christian love,
Frank.
No Christine. I'm not taking the bait. In the past you linked to several very superficial sites about the New Age movement. If you knew, you wouldn't have to link. You would write as fluidly about the New Age movement as you try to write about the occult. In fact, you know little about the occult except for strange bits and pieces about practices. The occult part of New Age is probably be way over your head. For example, Solana's mother was into the occult. I doubt if she was swinging cats around and looking through their eyes. Constance now lets anyone post here what they want to. That doesn't mean what is written has anything to do with the New Age movement.
6:08 PM, you wrote: "Constance now lets anyone post here what they want to."
Why are you attacking Constance? This is her blog after all!
Frank.
The last paragraph in your post at 5:12 is so much like what is found at crazy conspiracy sites that are meant to pretend knowledge of scary things. Is there some reason we should trust what you write as if you know what you are talking about? Are you some kind of authority on factual instances of occult behavior? You read crazy things and then carry them over to here like a cat carries a dead mouse trying to please an owner.
Do I want you to stop posting? Of course not. You are comical material for those who are intelligent. We all need a good laugh at times.
i was going from memory wrong move, It is Eccles. 12: 6, 7, 8 should not have had those extra 1 in there.
"Or ever the silver cord be loosed or the golden bowl be broken or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern,
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God Who gave it."
The Septuagint refers to the wheels running together, which might indicate that a great confusion of the chakras or perhaps an initial hyperactivity goes on at death. Both would be a bad mark on the kundalini practices, which frankly strike me as a labor intensive style of suicide.
I repeatedly stated the reason for bringing up the fetch, that the average wiccan you might meet often does not have the knowledge or terms in earlier use, yet thinks they are the legitimate ancient tradition. The more legitimate is in fact the dark side stuff.
Studying chemistry won't tell you much about the occult or paranormal, unless you were in a very strange school indeed.
However, almost invariably, the chemicals and herbs and oils that are reputed to repel entities and break up influences, are also antimicrobial, and/or antifungal and/or insecticidal. Which tells me, that when something is operating in a beginning quasi physical form, it has something in common with those life forms if it (in its physical format) is susceptible to chemicals that kill such. Of course the spirit being itself is unaffected, but its ground of operation is affected.
Up to a point. Holy Water is better usually, but that can take a soak down sometimes that is bad for some papers and ink and so forth, and may not last as long. There is also more of the other stuff around and less Holy Water, so I like to not waste the latter.
I NOTICE SOMEONE, LIKE ALWAYS, WHENEVER CLAIMING I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE NEW AGE, HAS NOT ANSWERED MY CHALLENGE TO TELL ME WHAT IT IS.
Frank, it appears you haven't followed the blog since the beginning. Constance in the past was very discriminating about the use of her blog. She would challenge posters who were off topic. She would keep up to date with information. Over the years things have changed. She has gotten older and is probably tired of the battle. Her time is more valuable when spent on her legal practice. Yet, she wants to keep her hand in, keeping her reputation intact as a valuable researcher. Example: she said she was writing a book about Solana in 1995. That was 15 years ago and information about Solana is no longer as important as it once was. She said she is writing a new book now.
The fact is the more one knows about New Age, the harder it is to present the information in a way that the average person can understand it. The harder it will be to summarize all of the details, past and present. She will not be writing just for those who have followed the movement all of these years.
Maybe she should just be writing for an audience of people like you Frank. Tell everyone to skip all of the information about the New Age movement and follow a particular Christian group. That sure would make you happy Frank.
Frank, it appears you haven't followed the blog since the beginning. Constance in the past was very discriminating about the use of her blog. She would challenge posters who were off topic. She would keep up to date with information. Over the years things have changed. She has gotten older and is probably tired of the battle. Her time is more valuable when spent on her legal practice. Yet, she wants to keep her hand in, keeping her reputation intact as a valuable researcher. Example: she said she was writing a book about Solana in 1995. That was 15 years ago and information about Solana is no longer as important as it once was. She said she is writing a new book now.
The fact is the more one knows about New Age, the harder it is to present the information in a way that the average person can understand it. The harder it will be to summarize all of the details, past and present. She will not be writing just for those who have followed the movement all of these years.
Maybe she should just be writing for an audience of people like you Frank. Tell everyone to skip all of the information about the New Age movement and follow a particular Christian group. That sure would make you happy Frank.
And by the way, since she lets everyone, including you, post here what they want to post, I'm sure she will have no problem with my comments.
Christine, I trust my Christian ex-occultists a lot more than I trust your claims to know all about witchcraft and the occult. You have talked nonsense on so many other subjects here. PLEASE restrict yourself to New Age here and put your other stuff on your own blog. Then this would not, as was said here a few days ago, be like a dinner party at which one of the guests takes over every conversation.
As I said Christine, I'm not taking your bait. Those who know me understand what I know. I don't have to justify myself to someone who knows nothing about the New Age movement. Do the hard work of learning about the New Age movement from scratch on your own.
"The fact is the more one knows about New Age, the harder it is to present the information in a way that the average person can understand it."
Lol, I understand that, so no need for the patronizing tone from you.
No, we should not 'skip info about the New Age. We should also examine our reasons for posting information and not be duplicitous. One cannot truly stand against 'New Age' ideas and yet not renounce kabbalah-Zohar for instance. Yes I do have a Christian agenda, thank you for the compliment.
If you want a blog that follows the strict dictates of you, create one! Perhaps d th and y would figure strongly in the title of it, or maybe that should be blotted out and you could try something else instead.
Stop insulting the host of this blog and show some cordial etiquette!
Frank
My last comments at 6:42PM are in reply to 6:29 PM, the Anon coward, who sounds like a very bitter old lady indeed!
P.S., if your heart gets any harder we'll end up calling you Pharoah (or should that be pharisee?), you'd like that wouldn't you!
Frank
Frank, that's your style alright. You insult rather than write in a civil manner. If you know so much about New Age, why don't you ever contribute something along those lines to the blog. If you are a Christian, you aren't like any I know who follow the commandments.
Nothing I wrote about Constance was insulting. We are all affected in some way by age. Nothing I wrote takes away from the research she has done in the past. Go over her posts in the last several years and you can see the change. I know she likes using the picture of a younger Constance, but if she wasn't a realistic person, calling the shots as she saw them, she could never have done the research she did.
Well at least I'm not hiding in the weeds. Over 30 years and you're still a coward... is that it?
My comments stand as they are and in the manner they are. If you don't like it, like I said create your own blog. Otherwise D, which I suppose you've written on your coned hat, SHUT UP!
Smiles,
Frank
cute evasion not willing to explain the New Age. I DID NOT ASK YOU TO INFORM ME AS IN TEACH ME, I ASKED YOU TO SHOW WHAT YOU KNOW, SHOW HOW YOU DEFINE IT,
and you ducked the challenge, so you are a FRAUD. I first encountered the accusation of knowing nothing about the New Age when I had just posted material classically relevant to it. I know a lot about it, and everything I have said about it fits Constance's writings and wikipedia and some others. the occult is a big part. politics is a big part. devil worship is a big part. nicey nice fake lovey dovey appeal to the more peaceful but self indulgent side of the flesh is a big part.
it is complex.
What I notice, is that over and over, whenever someone does the kind of research that Constance did, that person comes under intense attack. Dorothy's limited very very limited superficial kabbalism had no relevance to the value of her posted research, and was discovered some time AFTER the attacks on her began.
I think I just may use the collapse feature and ignore some of you people. I recall someone sneering about fighting Agenda 21. Yet that is a BIG part of the NWO side of the New Age game.
I think some people here are working for the NWO.
I always thought Solana was a red herring Constance fell for, but didn't bother to argue about it. Indeed, as time passed, he became less important, perhaps in part because of attention focussed on him that resulted in some political action here and there I don't know I don't follow EU politics.
However, I do think it is an odd coincidence, when extremely bad idea laws get a 666 tag on their serial number, like that thing Solana had to do with getting into EU law or policy or something.
That should raise an eyebrow.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34781548/Baer-Inside-the-New-Age-Nightmare-Former-New-Age-Leader-Exposes-the-Movement-1989
you can read this for free at scribd.com or download for a fee. This writer invented the crystal therapy skubala, then got a revelation of the evil behind the veil of pretend love of the New Age, and turned Christian. for a while he made the same mistake I did of trying to see what could be retrieved out of his stuff to Christianity, but most if not all is a nonstarter. (noting what works against witchcraft and using it is another matter.)
Most likely murdered in Santa Fe, where he was lecturing against all this, and there is big money in this New Age stuff of the popular variety. Big money to lose if he was listened to too much. The car over the cliff left no skid marks, he was flung through the windshield but left no blood, so he was dead a while before he went through that windshield, and his briefcase was broken open.
The next thing he was going to work on was the demonic side of the UFO phenomenon, apparently, which thank God is already being revealed by some researchers.
to the person who thinks the medieval writers didn't know what they were talking about, though the MM is a bit silly at times, it is the modern witches and the purveyors of the myth of the burning times (as one article on this was titled) who do not know what they are talking about.
Wicca was invented as a whitewashed version to act as a conveyorbelt into darker stuff. Gardner was a friend of Crowley's as was Sybil Leek. Pettingill papers tell a lot of course it is poo pooed by the modern white light wicca crowd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pickingill
http://www.controverscial.com/Old%20George%20Pickingill.htm
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pickingill+papers+pdf&oq=pickingill+papers&gs_l=serp.1.1.0i30l2j0i5.6759.14628.0.19239.18.13.5.0.0.0.186.1094.10j3.13.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.O0dd7WACvRc
this google search page will give you a lot of information and also an article on Andrew Chumbley. That fellow and the Clan of Tubal Cain and the Anderson Feri crew are a lot closer to the real thing than the wiccans are.
http://www.pickingill.com/
the claim of pickingill meeting with nine groups 17 times a year and so forth may be bloated. the core of the material is consistent with the cunning man traditions.
The horse whisperers in England originally were a cult that sold their souls to the devil to get information on manipulating animals, most of which had nothing to do with the occult but with psychology and animal response to some smells, etc.
The Knights of the Golden Circle seem to have had some connection to this on the part of at least one of their founders, and they were instrumental in founding the KKK and in the Confederate drive in the first place, the golden circle referring to the imperialistic plan the Confederacy would have embarked on if they had won.
James Webb THE OCCULT ESTABLISHMENT and THE OCCULT UNDERGROUND detail occult connections to a lot of modern establishment stuff.
http://markswatson.com/occultgov.html
Occult government. Starts with examining Nazi Germany as a model to use to recognize similar things in governments today, then goes on to The Order aka Skull and Bones halfway down the page.
note regarding that article, it is excellent but it links to notions not so excellent. Always treat ANYTHING with discernment. Do not be simple minded, no one and nothing but The Bible can be treated as authoritative, incl. Christian writers. Always read with discernment. Many New Agers have gotten on the anti Illuminati anti NWO bandwagon, probably because they don't like increasing govt. controls that might interfere with their freewheeling self deified status. Some of them have excellent information, but they always promote their New Age pseudo spirituality as a solution. One of the best videos ever, connecting dots and drawing on laboratory tests of poisons being dumped on us and morgellon's disease and other things, ends with such "spirituality" garbage. As St. Paul said, test or prove or examine all things, hold fast what is good. Obviously what is not good is to be jettisoned, and this and the good to be kept can be in the same document. St. Paul quoted pagan writers a few times, when the bit in question was of use to The Gospel.
"to the person who thinks the medieval writers didn't know what they were talking about, though the MM is a bit silly at times, it is the modern witches and the purveyors of the myth of the burning times (as one article on this was titled) who do not know what they are talking about. Wicca was invented as a whitewashed version to act as a conveyorbelt into darker stuff."
Christine you are addressing me, although you have distorted what I said. I wrote that the author-inquisitors who wrote the Malleus Maleficarum didn't know what they were talking about (ie, witchcraft in their times) and I stand by that statement. Stop posing as a great expert, because compared to the people I have spoken extensively to, you know little. They PRACTISED witchcraft AND learned its history, and one is an expert on African witchcraft because he lived there.
Everybody knows that Satan ensnares people with milder occult practices and seeks to draw them deeper. True but hardly news.
"it is the modern witches and the purveyors of the myth of the burning times (as one article on this was titled) who do not know what they are talking about."
Nobody is saying that everybody who was burnt as a witch was innocent, 100%. But once accused you were invariably convicted, and if you denied it you were tortured until you either died or admitted it. The Inquisitors were mainly mendicants who lived off the proceeds of confiscation of their victims, which is hardly impartial procedure. These facts are well documented; see, for instance, Europe's Inner Demons by Norman Cohn. So who does not know what they are talking about?
Well congratulations Christine.
You know more about witchcraft than most witches
know.
You claim to be a Christian, which is why I've tried
and tried to give you the benefit of the doubt all
this time. But you show no inclination to burn those books or repent of your own deep involvement with
the occult.
You say you've read the Bible more than once, but your comments reveal you to be an expert on magic and every form of satanic deception, and what you do know about the Bible always seems to get twisted into lies.
The Lord rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ.
sedotma 43Christine, regarding your 12:42 comment - discernment is such a fudgy word with you. You put everything out on the table and tell readers to evaluate it. You know darn well that most people don't have enough background to do that. That leaves them to believe nonsense while putting you in some sort of catbird seat, able to tell people, "Well I didn't tell you to believe that" when they point out your comments are stupid.
More people are needed to show what you are up to. When will more people show up? When more people know what New Age is about.
Paul, you, like Frank, like to think you are channeling Jesus. That's what all of this speaking in Jesus' name is about. Because you are not struck by lightning you are sure you are right. Good luck.
No, Paul and I do not 'channel', and be careful in making sure you do not commit the unpardonable sin, Dorothy, it is you is it not! Paul and I have both committed our lives to Jesus Christ and, although we make mistakes through our own frailties,have surrendered our lives to the Him who is both Lord and Savior for ever and ever.
Will you deny once again this is you Dorothy, you sorceress, you friend to no-one, you whited sepulchre full of dead men's bones, you child of the viper hissing from the weeds again.
Frank
And Dorothy, if you dabble in Kabbalah , as even Christine implies at 9:04 PM ["Dorothy's limited very very limited superficial kabbalism"](let alone support it which you've definitely done on this blog before, which is damnable enough) then you are not of the ilk of those Jewish people who reject such things for you have given up your inheritance and are of the synagogue of Satan. One day you too will bow before the Lord Jesus Christ whether you like it or not Dorothy and declare Him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
You will also bow before Christians and Messianic Jews whom you have persecuted and will be made to apologize! (If you want Holy Scriptural references for what I'm saying, I'll give them to you.)
Frank.
And Dorothy, if you dabble in Kabbalah , as even your sycophant Christine implies at 9:04 PM ["Dorothy's limited very very limited superficial kabbalism"](let alone support it which you've definitely done on this blog before, which is damnable enough) then you are not of the ilk of those Jewish people who reject such things for you have given up your inheritance and are of the synagogue of Satan. One day you too will bow before the Lord Jesus Christ whether you like it or not Dorothy and declare Him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
You will also bow before Christians and Messianic Jews whom you have persecuted and will be made to apologize! (If you want Holy Scriptural references for what I'm saying, I'll give them to you.)
Dorothy, perhaps I've overdone it, I should say, the Lord rebuke you in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Frank
Frank, if you believe that somebody called Dorothy is posting anonymously then why not just ask, courteously but explicitly, "Dear Anon@TIME, are you Dorothy?" The answer or perhaps lack thereof may tell you more than you can learn by writing angry words.
Yawn, 9:32 AM.
The style, the amount of venom how it's aimed, worded, and who it's aimed at, when analized even fleetingly, undeniably all fit the behavior of a certain anti-Christian poster.
Gentle smiles,
Frank
Yawn, 9:32 AM.
The style, the amount of venom used, how it's aimed, worded, and who it's aimed at, when analyzed even fleetingly, undeniably all fit the behavior of a certain anti-Christian poster known for supporting the evil Kabbalah.
Gentle smiles,
Frank
Yawn, 9:32 AM.
The style, the amount of venom used, how it's aimed, worded, and who it's aimed at, when analyzed even fleetingly, undeniably all fit the behavior of a certain anti-Christian poster known for supporting the evil Kabbalah.
May the Lord Jesus Christ convict and rebuke that poster.
Gentle smiles,
Frank
I am an expert on the dark stuff because in the 1960s and less in the 1970s I studied for no good reason.
I knew about Jesus and turned to Him or rather "God" meaning the God of Abraham not some impersonal brahman blur, when I got a scare. Later in 1977 I got baptized in a swimming pool. In 2000, when I bumbled into a situation that required knowing what was going on I got quite an education online, confirming here and there some of what I was being told. I often got into disputes in some of those egroups, got kicked out and returned with an alias. Some of the stuff they prate about regarding Christianity is the most ignorant garbage imaginable.
I also began to recognize some points about myself and my biological so called mother and began to put two and two together regarding her.
regarding people here not having the background to sort stuff out, if they have read Constance's writings, then they DO have the background, because she writes about the same New Age occultism, politics, AND pseudo spirituality that someone here pretends is not the New Age. And some of these things are also dealt with in some posts.
"I also began to recognize some points about myself and my biological so called mother and began to put two and two together regarding her."
Forgive your mother of her trespasses Christine. If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us because we are commanded by Him to do so and if we do not, then we sin.
Forgiveness is a painful process, I understand that, the angers, the disappointments, the hurt, doesn't usually disappear overnight but we keep giving it over to the Lord.
Forgiveness is a decision to let go, it doesn't necessarily mean all our emotions will be immediately fine but again I say, keep giving it over to the Lord.
We are to honor our parents, and sure, they're supposed to not irritate their children to anger, but let the Lord deal with it Christine.
I'm sorry for the way I do things sometimes but I don't apologize for exposing and rebuking you where you promote those things pertaining to false beliefs and withcraft. However, I am not out to get you just because you're Christine, please understand that.
May God bless and comfort you in this, and heal your pains.
In Christian love,
Frank
Honoring parents is presupposing they are godly, notice that the promise attaches about keeping the land God gave the Israelites. Jesus also points to taking care of them as a form of this.
=
Forgiveness also presupposes repentance, but it is good to overlook stuff that is not repented because how much stuff do we not repent of or even recognize?
But define forgiveness - is this supposed to incl. acceptance and forgetfulness and vulnerability to an evil influence? Did not Jacob and Esau, once they made peace, separate and avoid further trouble? Did not Abraham and Lot separate to keep the peace?
I am not going to tie up the blog with a longwinded beginning description of her evil ways. Simply put, she was a witch by instinct and maybe a bit by blood. After I became Christian and started praying, her power seems to have diminished considerably. I didn't even realize what I was dealing with. The extent of her lies I didn't even know until after she was dead. I strongly suspect she murdered someone also, but I can never prove it.
Christine, you have written at 12:37 PM: "I also began to recognize some points about myself and my biological so called mother and began to put two and two together regarding her."
Forgive your mother of her trespasses Christine. If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us because we are commanded by Him to do so and if we do not, then we sin.
Forgiveness is a painful process, I understand that all this baggage, the angers, the disappointments, the hurt, doesn't usually disappear overnight but we keep giving it over to the Lord.
Forgiveness is a decision to let go, it doesn't necessarily mean all our emotions will be immediately fine but again I say, keep giving it over to the Lord.
We are to honor our parents, and sure, they're supposed to not irritate their children to anger, but let the Lord deal with it Christine.
I'm sorry for the way I do things sometimes but I don't apologize for exposing and rebuking you where you promote those things pertaining to false beliefs and withcraft. However, I am not out to get you just because you're Christine, please understand that.
May God bless and comfort you in this, and heal your pains.
In Christian love,
Frank
http://bible.cc/isaiah/32-6.htm
It's good you post here. Constance needs to learn that she is not the only one targeted by evil people. Others who speak truth will be the target of evil people.
I don't agree that honoring parents presupposes that they are godly. That's why the Commandment is not unconditionally to OBEY them. I know a bit about this myself.
Christine you wrote: "Honoring parents is presupposing they are godly ..."
No, it isn't Christine. We are to honor our mother and father.
You then wrote: "Forgiveness also presupposes repentance ..."
Yet in Luke 23:24, of those who haven't repented and were in the very act of crucifying and mocking the Lord Jesus Christ, we read:
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
Christine, no servant is greater than his Master! To forgive does not necessitate reconciliation.
Reconciliation is what shouldn't happen until there is repentance.
We, however, must forgive regardless. Forgiveness is a letting go, it allows us to heal.
Forgiveness is not seeking vengeance, it is choosing (however difficult a process) not to harbor ill feeling towards others. It does not mean we forget to the extent that we continue to allow ourselves to be put in a position of reconciliation, which may further harm us, where no repentance is forthcoming. We are, in the end, to wipe the dust off our feet if necessary. Nor does it mean we do not rebuke, correct, or be passive but it does mean letting go of anger and hurt done to us.
There is nothing worthwhile we can do without Jesus Christ our Lord, nothing!
Only the price paid by our Lord and Savior upon the cross can redeem us from death, which is the wages of sin, and all have fallen short of the Glory of God and have sinned apart from He Who shed His blood and gave His life for us, and Who rose from the death, conquering the power of sin.
It is up to us to accept Him for as Romans 10:09 states: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
We however, in true belief must hear His voice and obey His Commandments, and we are commanded to forgive others their trespasses.
Frank.
That law about honoring our parents is referred to as the first commandment with a promise and it reads, "honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, " Ex. 20:12 and the latter depends on being godly and keeping His commandments. Elsewhere the Israelites are commended for forsaking the errors of their fathers.
Now, granted, there is a difference between "f... you bitch and NO!" and "with all due respect I must refuse this request/order/tradition/whatever."
Yes, Jesus prayed for those not yet repentant and perhaps never were but that this particular thing not be held against them. I think what I said about overlooking tresspasses against us that are not repented of because there are things we haven't repented of or even properly if at all understand (yet) would be under this heading.
I AM GLAD YOU DRAW A DISTINCTION BETWEEN FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION. That is of critical importance in forgiveness not being exploited as a doctrine to further evil and enslavement.
I pray for her soul. When I think her ghost is up to something, I curse at it. At least once I stabbed it In The Name of Jesus. But that is defensive. I don't go looking for trouble.
I realize you probably think that there is no hope after death, but Jesus said "with God all things are possible," and also specified some people would have "the greater damnation," so obviously there are lesser damnations, and said that Sodom and Gomorrha would have it better at The Last Judgement than Tyre and Sidon because they would have repented if given the signs and opportunities the latter two were given and did not repent.
So it is not a simple picture like protestants usually paint. I Maccabees, no one disputes as correct history just not inspired holy writ, and it shows the Jews at the time sometimes prayed and made sacrifices for the dead that their sins not be held against them at The Last Judgement. Luther arbitrarily removed this from being in The Bible because RC was making a racket out of purgatory (an unbiblical concept as distinct from the escapability of hell) at the time.
Christina, you may find these two links help in understanding the command to honor your parents. This does not mean we accept the wrongs they've done to us as though those wrongs were okay to do nor does it mean that we obey them or their desires when such go against God's Will and Commandments, for we should obey God rather than man.
http://www.gotquestions.org/honor-father-mother.html
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/family
On your second point, firstly we are commanded to not use coarse and foul language:
http://www.openbible.info/topics/foul_language
Secondly, I agree with you that there is a vast difference when we say, and that rather than resort to foul language it is better to use: "with all due respect I must refuse this request/order/tradition/whatever."
I am glad you make this point, and thank you, because I am convicted by it to apologize to Dorothy and all here for calling her a child of a viper and other angry speech. Sorry Dorothy, and also that despite my deep suspicion that she has posted the anonomus posts, I accused without real proof that this is the case.
I am sorry for that also Dorothy and I acknowledge that the Lord knows everything and will repay, not me. Sorry to you Christine for referring to you as her sychophant.
I do not apologize for standing against kabbalah and its promotion because such is witchcraft and must be refuted. I do not, however, know whether Dorothy is a practitioner of such (I sincerely hope not) yet her support of it in times past, or attacking those exposing it as wicked, cannot rightly be accepted.
Christine, you continue by writing: "I AM GLAD YOU DRAW A DISTINCTION BETWEEN FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION. That is of critical importance in forgiveness not being exploited as a doctrine to further evil and enslavement."
Thank you, and yes, I agree with you here.
I do not, however, agree with your next point, which refers to ghosts. In Luke 16: 26 we learn:
"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
I believe that demons can and do mascarade themselves as ghosts of past loved ones. Perhaps the intent of such in your case is to cause you confusion. Such should not be cursed, but should be commanded to leave in Jesus Christ's Name, and we should state: "The Lord rebuke you."
Christine, you then write: "I realize you probably think that there is no hope after death."
I think Judgement is in the hands of the Almighty. I do believe I should spread the Gospel, call others to repent, and urge them to believe and confess that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again from the dead and be saved, and that He, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the Only Way and that no man comes to the Father but by Him.
I agree I Maccabees is an historical document and is NOT inspired Holy writ. Therefore, it has no place in the Holy Canon, second place or not. You say it is correct, I understand what you mean but it is not inspired so let us not forget that we should let God be True and every man a liar! Also, because something is reported to have happened does not mean that what has happened is acceptable, and because it is not Inspired Holy writ we should scrutinize anything in it. Let us be as the Berean Greeks and test it by searching the Holy Spirit Inspired canon and seeing if it is contrary or in agreement with Holy Scripture. I personally do not agree with the practice of praying for the dead as mentioned in I Maccabees.
Christian love,
Frank.
P.S., Christine, for further detail on where I stand regards Maccabees versus Inspired Holy Scripture please see:
http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm
Frank.
The gulf fixed was between the righteous dead and the unrighteous dead. Abraham did not say he could not send Lazarus to the living, merely that it would be useless, and by implication, why put him to such trouble for no results.
Also note, the dead man did not call to God but to Abraham. Typical of his way in life also.
The only place in The Bible that indicates finality, is in the last few verses of Revelation, and the context has to be after The Last Judgement (as it indeed appears to be), or else it would mean no repentance could be done from c. AD 90 when it was written.
When the Apostles thought Jesus was a ghost He didn't say a. there are no such things or b. there are only demons pretending to be ghosts, He showed them He was not a ghost.
The reference to Peter's angel when he had been released from prison by an angel and was knocking at the door and the men thought it was only his angel not him, though it looked like him, would relate to what the Swedes call a doppelganger, which ranges from a creepy lookalike you meet yourself, to mostly a bilocation, or a last minute visitation right after death. These things seem to have been just taken for granted and ignored or feared.
Frank, on the road to Damascus you've found Christianity. Maybe that's what Christine was meant to be in your life.
Christine,
Luther was not the first to say that what protestants call the Apocrypha - including Maccabees - is non-canonical. St Jerome himself, translator of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into the Latin Vulgate, said the same more than 1000 years earlier. None of the Apocryphal books asserts divine authority (as do the law and prophets). Here are some details from them:
• The Letter of Jeremiah (often printed as the 6th chapter of Baruch) says (in verse 2) that the Jews would be in Babylon for seven generations, whereas Jeremiah (25:11) stated (correctly) 70 years.
• Supposedly Tobit was alive when the Assyrians invaded Israel in 722BC (Tobit 1:3), and also alive more than 200 years earlier when Jeroboam’s revolt against Jerusalem (Tobit 1:4-5) divided Israel into northern and southern kingdoms. Yet he is said to have lived less than 130 years (Tobit 14:2)!
• Sirach has this to say on bringing up children: “He who loves his son will whip him often… If you play with your child, he will grieve you; do not laugh with him, or you will have sorrow with him… give him no freedom in his youth… make his yoke heavy” (ch. 30). Is this consistent with the loving discipline proposed in Proverbs, or Paul at Ephesians 6:4, or Jesus talking tenderly of children in Matthew 18:1-10?
It is very clear from the Bible that where we end up after the final judgement is settled at the moment of our death. However it is also clear that the dead experience a period of waiting between death and final judgement. I do not rule out that our prayers might influence their state in the meanwhile, and that they might be made to appear to us by occult means (as with the witch of Endor episode), although it is totally forbidden to actively solicit any such interaction. (NB It is eisegesis to say that a demon impersonated Samuel.)
Christine,
Jesus doesn't say there are such things as ghosts (as in human spirits roaming the Earth without bodies, which have died) in that passage either, or elsewhere for that matter. Yet there is plenty to refute such phenomena in the Holy Bible. Therefore I stand by what I have written and I do believe Luke 16: 26 is sufficient to dispel the myth of ghosts in the way you've spoken of and declared to be of your mother.
The messenger in Acts 12 that frees Peter is an agel of the Lord. Later, Peter arrives at the Mother of John, whose surname is Mark, and is mistaken for being "his angel". What is meant by this is not exactly clear. This is however no basis for a Biblical inclusion of what is otherwise an
occult belief in doppelgangers. Again, you concern me and I cannot strive with you and your gnostic notions forever. Search the Holy Scriptures to see if a matter is true or not.
Btw, doppelganger is German (literally meaning double/twin walker or double/twin wayfarer, not Swedish.
It is appointed once for a man to die and then the Judgement comes. We cannot make it into Heaven if we have rejected Jesus Christ in this life.
Frank.
Granted this is the sitcom era. Problems solved in an hour. Christine's personal problems are interesting, but not interesting enough to replace research on the New Age movement. Frank's personal view on life is also not a replacement for that kind of research. IS ANYONE OUT THERE INTERESTED IN THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT?
Anon 6:58 PM,
Not exactly in that way. I do not persecute the saints and havent deliberately done so to any because they were Christians or Jews ever in my life. Have you Anon 6:58 PM? I have been a believing Christian ever since I was a small child.
Smiles,
Frank.
"Frank, on the road to Damascus you've found Christianity..."
Yes 7:28 PM, Im interested in refuting the New Age, everything about it and all linked to it, including kabbalah and chakras, are you? Please point out your "exposing the New Age" contributions to this page here.
Frank.
Frank, go back and read all of the posts since the beginning of this blog. You might learn something about New Age that can't be taught to you in 100 words or less. I've read and have posted since the beginning of this blog. I am only looking for people to contact who have also done so. We will recognize each other by the content of what we post.
I specifically said to "contributions this page here" because the reply youve just given was to be expected. I am right in thinking so, am I not?
Moreover, have you stood against all things pertaining to "New Age" and witchcraft, such as kabbalah for instance? Or have you stood against those exposing kabbalah in all its forms?
You see, I do not like bullying nor bullies, and I stand up against them even if I did not always do so straight away before.
You may see me as one yourself, but you would be wrong.
I agree with your next point: "We will recognize each other by the content of what we post."
Frank
Jesus didn't say there were such things, neither did He contradict such superstitions. Why not? He didn't hesitate to contradict other stuff that was wrong.
the Last Judgement is over a thousand years after the Second Coming.
Most ghosts are probably not roaming the earth.
"Granted this is the sitcom era. Problems solved in an hour. Christine's personal problems are interesting, but not interesting enough to replace research on the New Age movement. Frank's personal view on life is also not a replacement for that kind of research. IS ANYONE OUT THERE INTERESTED IN THE NEW AGE MOVEMENT?"
at this point, I agree. my experiences may be of help to some here and elsewhere I have discussed them.
Perhaps someone should go over the past few months, collect the posted links they think should be looked at again or might have been missed, and repost them in a big post, probably in the next blog post Constance makes because this one is probably running out of time.
Here's an article explaining how the so-called emergent church is replete with kabbalist filth.
http://www.letusreason.org/curren76.htm
And on this next blog, http://www.celebrate-life.info/2012/en/archive/speakers.html , (caution, this is a New Age blog link) we see the likes of Barbara Marx Hubbard and others, including Michael Laitman. It states:
"Michael Laitman is a Professor of Ontology and the Theory of Knowledge, Doctor of Philosophy and Kabbalah, and has a Master of Science of Biocybernetics. He gives lessons for 30 years and founded the public education and research center Bnei Baruch, which has more than 2.5 million students and holds the world's most comprehensive educational materials about the Kabbalah. He has written more than 30 books, translated into 27 languages. His lessons to his students can attend free of charge every day live on the Internet."
"As a scientist and global thinker, Laitman is a sought-after lecturer on the topic of authentic Kabbalah. He is frequently invited to participate in prestigious international meetings such as the World Wisdom Council and the Club of Budapest, and in the last two years he has been in numerous meetings in the United States, Canada, Europe , Russia, and Latin America. Most recently, as the founder and president of the Ashlag Research Institute (ARI), he has established ties with UNESCO on the subject of global education."
www.laitman.de
www.kabbalah.info [DANGER AHEAD ON THIS SITE!]
Frank
The Rainbow Swastika by Hannah Newman
A REPORT TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE
ABOUT NEW AGE ANTISEMITISM
by Hannah Newman -- freeway@netvision.net.il
Here's a report that shows the Anti-Judaism and Anti-Christianity of the New Age Movement. I state alot against Kabbalah, yet emphasise that I am not anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic although I believe Kabbalah, used by many new agers is anti-Judaism.
I do believe the only way to the Father is through Jesus Christ of Nazareth, yes, however, this post clearly shows the hatred of the New Age Movement for Judaism, whether the Messiah Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is recognized or not.
I do not want readers to misinterpret my position and do not want them to end up believing the Tex Marrs of this World. Therefore, although the article is a basic overview of the obvious for seasoned Anti-New Agers, I see it as a necessary post for those not so well aquainted with the New Age Movement's rabid and vicious Anti-Judaism.
http://www.lermanet.com/rainbow-swaztika/naD.htm
Frank.
"In the Kabala God is in everything and everything is in God (The Kabalah, p.18). This is called pantheism, it is a non Judaic/Christian view. It also says Creation was not made out of “nothing” (The Kabalah p. 115). Creation was fashioned from the four elements-water, fire, earth and ether. This concept is also found in some ancient nature religions, but not in Judaism. In the Kabala it teaches that the soul is pre-existent, before conception (The Kabalah, p. 17). That one may recollect their previous existence. “The pure soul becomes present among the emanantions(10) who control the world. An impure soul must be reborn in another body, and the process continues until it has been made pure” (Evangelical Dictionary of Theology by W. Elwell, p.598)."
Indeed, this is not Torah Judaism or anything like it. Genesis and a few other places point to creation out of nothing. To say that God created everything out of these elements, after saying it was not created out of nothing, is to say that these elements are coeternal with and alongside God, since they are not themselves said to be created!
The description of everything IN God and God IN everything is not however pantheism. This is in fact biblically correct, "in Him we live and move and have our being," this still makes a distinction between God and the creation He contains all being larger than all, and can be everywhere, but pantheism - and this tendency is encouraged by kabbalism - holds that God made everything out of Himself and/or that the universe is itself God.
(the divine spark idea is a straight steal out of gnosticism, that the soul is trapped in mere matter, gnosticism held that the physical creation is inherently evil and a lesser being not The Most High made the physical creation. However, "divine spark" can be interpreted as "image and likeness of God," but it probably won't be.
Reincarnation is totally alien to OT, there is not a hint of it. Resurrection of the dead someday, giving them new bodies but that a one time thing that lasts forever, and it is the same person and general form, a restoration not a reincarnation.
All this stuff is totally pagan in origin. A holdover from the influence of overly hellenized Jews.
"Indeed, this is not Torah Judaism or anything like it."
Exactly Christine!
Frank
A pretty good review Christine. However, it is too ecumenical, too one religion for the world, for me when two Christians decide what Kabbalah is about, who is following it and what should others think about it. It could only be matched by two Jews, neither one a rabbi, deciding what the Christianity of St. Augustine or Rick Warren is about, who is following it and what should others think about it.
I don't see the difficulty. first off, in Judaism kabbalism has been referred to by one rabbi as the soul of Judaism and by another as a disease of the mind.
Secondly, in both scenarios, you are dealing with religions that have written permanent core standards. It is quite possible to be a non believer or an atheist even, and to look at the core writings of Christianity, the early church traditions, that derive from the Apostles and The Bible, and then square that against Rick Warren and other such like, and say, do these later people fit the core doctrines and writings or not? Does St. Augustine go off base at some points while remaining a great fighter against paganism and at least one specific heresy, (as Eastern Orthodoxy says) or not?
Likewise, especially since within Judaism there is great disagreement, and even among those who supported kabbalism it was a rule that no one should study it below the age of I think 40 and some other precondition, which added up to, the student should not be of a frame of mind to blindly accept it all and go hog wild.
There are some key points in the Torah, which some points of kabbalism goes against. (There are some problems in the Talmud also, but the Talmud is full of conflicting opinions anyway.)
One big problem Torah wise with kabbalism is precisely that it tries to probe into the unseen and unknown and unrevealed, and Moses said that God has kept the hidden things for Himself, but the revealed things are for us and our children to keep.
kabbalism attempts to probe where you can't go with any certainty, and uses tools that come from pagan philosophy and magic, both of which are dubious at best, prohibited at worst.
I can look at the history and development of Buddhism, and say, yes, the Theravada (called Hinayana or lesser vehicle by the self styled Mahayana or greater vehicle)is in fact the original Buddhism, and this other stuff is a deviation from it. Zen attempted in its fast track way to get back to basics though is technically counted as Mahayana because of its pedigree.
I am not a Buddhist. I don't have to be. In fact, being an outsider with no dog in that fight, just might give an objectivity that can cut through obscurantism and confusion and presuppositions and loyalties that obscure the core issues of what did Buddha teach and what didn't he teach? which is the real buddhism which is syncretistic and invented deviation?
Back to Judaism. Torah and Talmud are not considered potentially destabilizing. Kabbalah IS so considered. Modern ease of access to it would horrify the old teachers.
That in itself should tell you something is wrong with it, something is ungodly.
An excellent post Christine, 2:30 AM! Thank you.
I would add though that the blasphemous talmud is also not true Judaism, which is really found in the Tanakh (Old Testament)and is fulfilled in Jesus Christ in the New Testament through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ, that is, Yeshua Ha'Mashiach is called yeshu in the Talmud (meaning no-name or that His Name is blotted out). Yet God would never blot out Himself! He is also referrred to as an illegitimate offspring (though a coarser word is used to descrtibe this) of a Roman soldier. His earthly mother (He has no Heavenly mother of course) is called a whore, and many more disgusting writings are written in the unedited version of the Unholy Babylonian (this should give you a clue as to its origins)talmud.
There are many Jews who rightly reject both the kabbalah in all its forms (therefore including zohar) and the talmud in all its forms, even if many sadly have not accepted eternal life (although all men are appointed once to die of course) and salvation because they have not yet accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and are blinded in general until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
Those who meddle in kabbalah, which shows how to cunjure demons (and supposedly control them to do one's bidding), are of the Synagogue of Satan, and although they may or may not be Semitic they have given up their inheritance and should not therefore be called Jews.
Great post anyway Christine, full of intelligent reasoning and holding to the traditions once delivered unto the Saints. Keep fighting for the Faith.
Christian love,
Frank.
Emory University apologizes for anti-Semitism
By JTA
10/12/2012
"Emory University issued a formal apology to Jewish dental students who attended the school between 1948 and 1961 and faced anti-Semitism."
"University President James Wagner delivered the apology at a special event Wednesday night that included 32 former students, now in their 70s and 80s, of the Atlanta school. The students had received failing grades, were thrown out of school or were forced to repeat classes only because they were Jewish."
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=287562
Frank
I must add though Christine, and I'm not saying you're promoting it, that Buddhism is evil.
What it teaches regards karma (the concept of karma is a lie from Hell)leads to the evil conclusion that innocent children that died in the holocaust or starve to death in parts of Africa and elsewhere, suffer such because of something they did wrong as individuals in a past life. Karma, such as in mainstream Hinduism (from which Buddhism is generally derived) even teaches that you should not help the lame, the poor, the destitute and hungry, etc, because they are in that position because of wrongs they've supposedly committed in so-called past lives, and that if you help them you are merely prolonging the agony of experiencing the fruits of bad karma for them.
Such concepts held by Buddhism and Hinduism are in reality evil lies straight from the pit of Hell!
Any Buddhist or Hindu with an inkling of honesty in them won't deny such are the results of the teaching of Karma in these (dis)respecive false religions, i.e., Buddhism and Hinduism.
They also teach implicitly or expressedly that lie first told in the Garden of Eden, that you shall be as God or Divine (Spark) as the Kabbalists and New Agers (who draw much of their belief system from Kabbalah, Hinduism and Buddhism, and other lies of the Devil)
Frank
I must add though Christine, and I'm not saying you're promoting it, that Buddhism is evil.
What it teaches regards karma (the concept of karma is a lie from Hell)leads to the evil conclusion that innocent children that died in the holocaust or starve to death in parts of Africa and elsewhere, suffer such because of something they did wrong as individuals in a past life. Karma, such as in mainstream Hinduism (from which Buddhism is generally derived) even teaches that you should not help the lame, the poor, the destitute and hungry, etc, because they are in that position because of wrongs they've supposedly committed in so-called past lives, and that if you help them you are merely prolonging the agony of experiencing the fruits of bad karma for them.
Such concepts held by Buddhism and Hinduism are in reality evil lies straight from the pit of Hell!
Any Buddhist or Hindu with an inkling of honesty in them won't deny such are the results of the teaching of Karma in these (dis)respecive false religions, i.e., Buddhism and Hinduism.
They also teach implicitly or expressedly that lie first told in the Garden of Eden, that you shall be as God or Divine (Spark) as the Kabbalists and New Agers also claim(who draw much of their belief system from Kabbalah, Hinduism and Buddhism, and other lies of the Devil).
Frank
In fact, a few years ago Dorothy (if my memory serves me well) rightly posted stuff exposing Buddhism.
It is a shame she has been less forthcoming in exposing the evil Kabbalah (including Zohar), but rather has spent her time attacking the exposers therof.
Frank
Frank,
It's not karma that is an evil concept. The concept that sin will subsequently cause you misery is absolutely right. The problem is the linking of that concept with reincarnation (repudiated at Hebrews 9:27).
Buddhists also worked out in their own strength, correctly, that we should be attached to nothing in this world. Their problem is that they don't acknowledge their Creator to cling to.
By the way, in case someone thinks I'm bashing Jewish people, I am not!
Disobedience to God is such no matter who does it, and should be exposed! Kabbalah has also been dabbled in by some that have called themselves Christians (cabala). Just as much as those who say they are Jews but do and believe things truly Anti-Jewish by following Kabbalist teachings break God's Commands in Deuteronomy 18 and elsewhere in Holy Scripture, so do those who claim to be Christians but do and believe things truly Anti-Christian by also following Cabalist teachings break God's Commands in Deuteronomy 18.
Deuteronomy 18: 9 "When you enter the land ADONAI your God is giving you, you are not to learn how to follow the abominable practices of those nations. 10 There must not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through fire, a diviner, a soothsayer, an enchanter, a sorcerer, 11 a spell-caster, a consulter of ghosts or spirits, or a necromancer. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to ADONAI, and because of these abominations ADONAI your God is driving them out ahead of you.
This link has an interesting overview of why Kabbalah is wrong. I'm not familiar with the site as I have only just found it, and there are a few things I may differ on from them(such as still having to keep the Saturday Sabbath [I believe our rest in now in Jesus Christ]).
However, I have read and agree with the contents of the following article exposing Kabbalah, by the way, this, in so far as I've seen, is a Messianic Jewish website.
http://therefinersfire.org/kabbalah.htm
God willing, I'll refrain from any immediate further posts (unless I find something very pertinent or it is needed to respond to another poster for whatever reason)so that I'm not blog-hogging.
Frank.
I did say, "unless I find something very pertinent or it is needed to respond to another poster for whatever reason", as anon 10:10 AM stated something I feel is right to respond to now.
The idea of Karma in Buddhism from Hinduism, of which I specifically wrote, is always related to reincarnation.
Of course, also, the Devil likes to counterfeit the things of God ( such as unpleasant things happening as a result of sin), yet the Buddhist and Hindu notions, known as karma, twist this, even when referring to things we may suffer in this life because of things we've done in this life.
I did not use the word sin in my post at 9:31 AM, and deliberately used the word 'wrongs', and followed by the words 'supposedly committed', because somethings the Buddhist and Hindu claim are wrong to do or not to do, are often the opposite to what Judeo-Christianity claims about doing or not doing certain things, such as feeding or helping someone in need.
Karma is a deception and a counterfeit and distorted notion. Yes, under karma, doing something in this life may have consequences in this life, the next, or both.
However, despite its clever deception, it is not the same as the recompense spoken of in Holy Scripture. Also, the terrible results of Sin suffered by a person or persons is not always due to sins that committed by the suffering individual or group. The sins committed against innocent children during the Holocaust was due to evil adults in power, such as camp guards, Nazi soldiers and politicians, as not because of something the children had done. To claim otherwise is a grave sin.
I hope this clarifies things.
Frank.
Sorry! Poor editing on my part.
I did say, "unless I find something very pertinent or it is needed to respond to another poster for whatever reason", as Anon 10:10 AM stated something I feel is right to respond to now.
The idea of Karma in Buddhism from Hinduism, of which I specifically wrote, is always related to reincarnation.
Of course, also, the Devil likes to counterfeit the things of God.
Yes, unpleasant things happen as a result of sin, yet the Buddhist and Hindu notions, known as karma, twist the truth, even when referring to things we may suffer in this life because of things we've done in this life.
I did not use the word sin in my post at 9:31 AM, and deliberately used the word 'wrongs', followed by the words 'supposedly committed', because somethings the Buddhist and Hindu claim are wrong to do or not to do, are often the opposite to what Judeo-Christianity claims about doing or not doing certain things, such as feeding or helping someone in need.
Karma is a deception and a counterfeit and distorted notion.
Yes, under karma, doing something in this life may have consequences in this life, the next, or both.
However, despite its clever deception, it is not the same as the recompense spoken of in Holy Scripture. Also, the terrible results of Sin suffered by a person or persons is not always due to sins that may have been committed by the suffering individual or group. The sins committed against innocent children during the Holocaust were due to evil adults in power, such as camp guards, Nazi soldiers and politicians, and not because of something the children had done. To claim otherwise is a grave sin.
I hope this clarifies things.
Frank.
Frank: I am Anon@10.10AM. I am a committed evangelical Christian and I have never been a Buddhist. I also agree with you that what is and is not sin sometimes needs explaining to people; that is why God gave laws to Israel. But you criticise the notion of karma without defining what you understand by it - and this in a debate in which the meaning of the word is a key issue. Please clarify. In particular, are you certain that karma is not equivalent to what we call "the wages of sin"? If it is, then missionaries in Buddhist lands might legitimately talk of karma once they have preached against reincarnation.
12:58 PM, I believe I have both clarified and stated what I believe to be the case regards Karma, my belief that is is deceptive and a fraudulent counterfeit of "the wages of sin" and refer you to the points I've already made on this issue to study them a little more closely.
Frank.
Anon at 12:08 PM, (STUDYING THE TIME OF YOUR POST A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY, lol.) I believe I have both clarified and stated what I believe to be the case regards Karma, my belief that is is deceptive and a fraudulent counterfeit of "the wages of sin" and refer you to the points I've already made on this issue to study them a little more closely.
Frank.
P.S., anon 12:08, I believe in reaching out to such Buddhists, etc, the best approach would be to compare and contrast karma, showing it as a deception, to the concept of the wages of sin, and the Command of loving our neighbors as ourselves as shown in the Holy Bible, along with the concept of forgiveness and repentance and the hope we have in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior: "Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25).
Frank
It is not for us to preach a compomised version of the Good News, just because we in our human understanding might think it easier for others to stomach. We may offer milk only to babes, yes, but it should never contradict or deviate from God's Holy Word.
Those who will hear let them hear.
Frank.
Frank: I couldn't agree more that one should not compromise on the message of the gospel. All I'm saying is that the choice of words to be used when preaching in a language different from that of the gospels, to people in a culture that has not been shaped by the gospel, is not a trivial matter.
A buddhisdt or Hindu I forget which, one understanding the Gospel and I think accepting it, said, "Jesus took our karma on the Cross."
The problems of the doctrine of karma mixed with reincarnation are exactly as Frank has described. It is considered evil to help those suffering because it will interfere with them working out their karma from a previous life, thus I guess condemning them to more working out of it in the next life so giving them a respite now is seen as hurting by helping.
St. Paul used points out of pagan thought when it served to help them see a point.
I recall reading once that a Christian university student was debating with another student who was hindu, and finally held a pot of hot coffee over his head and said, "is there anything in your religion that would prohibit pouring this on you?" the hindu had to admit there wasn't, as contrasted with the Christian standards that DO prohibit this. OF course the pot wasn't poured, it was just to make a point.
Talmud consists mostly of stuff of no relevance pro or con to Jesus only interpreting points in Torah that were not spelled out, how to deal with unclarified disputes.
Rabbi Akiva was rabidly anti Christian, and ran the Jamnia or Yavneh school sometimes called the Council of Jamnia but it was more like a yeshiva. This was a bottleneck in the development of Judaism as we have this now.
The Masoretic text we have now, all came through his copyists, and he tweaked some stuff a little that was in use at the time to convert Jews. The Septuagint, the Torah being translated into Greek c. 200 BC and the rest of The Bible at various times later BC, was replaced with another Greek translation for use by Greek speaking Jews.
The Septuagint is what the Apostles used, which is why you almost never get a proper match, when looking up in Masoretic OT an OT quote in the NT.
Buddha tried to get to the root of all problems, and decided that all things take their arising from something else, even the so called gods of hinduism, so threw them out. Prohibiting worship of the false gods, and limited to the concepts of hinduism, he focussed on stopping the round of rebirths by stopping generating karma in the first place. this was as far as he could go in climbing OUT of the morass of hinduism.
For there to be a true God, He would have to take His arising from nothing and no one but Himself. Since no one in the hindu pantheon fit the bill, Buddha left the idea of does God exist or not an open question and essentially was agnostic.
YHWH fits the bill. The Self Existent Eternal Creator does not take His arising from anyone or anything but Himself. But Buddha had no one to tell him about this.
Buddhism in its original form was a step in the right direction. the Mahayana forms are a step back.
This is a point I would use in witnessing to Buddhists.
I am not a Buddhist, but I appreciate Buddha's efforts to escape the theological and social evils around him and to correct them.
Buddhism was eventually driven out of India by hindus, except for Sri Lanka.
One does not have to alter the Gospel in order to use the occasional compatible point in a false system, to draw people out of the false system and to Christ.
However, it is easy to slip into doing that.
Christine, some musings on your post of 3.29pm about Buddhism. Its biggest problem is that its sense of the transcendental is impersonal. It is totally committed to monism, to the extent that all differentiation is regarded as illusion.
A useful way round the "If God created the world then who created God?" issue is to point out that God created time, just as he created space (which his easier to grasp). The question as phrased presupposes a notion of time and so is not a meaningful question.
"Talmud consists mostly of stuff of no relevance pro or con to Jesus only interpreting points in Torah that were not spelled out, how to deal with unclarified disputes."
Indeed it started out as commentaries on the Torah, but the problem is that it has been elevated in Orthodox Judaism to a source of knowledge of equal authority to the OT. The rabbis claim that it was given to Moses orally by God at the same time as the written Law, with instructions that it should be transmitted orally and not written down. This claim cannot account for the fact that the Talmud refers to the OT thousands of times but not vice-versa. Beware of Jews who talk about the "oral Torah", because although the literal translation is just "oral teaching" the phrase is invariably used by those who take the rabbinical view of it.
"The Septuagint is what the Apostles used, which is why you almost never get a proper match, when looking up in Masoretic OT an OT quote in the NT."
That can't be the explanation. The discrepancy should be healable in translations of the Bible into other languages (such as English) except in the very few places where LXX and Masoretes differ in meaning rather than idiom.
There are places online that track rate of agreement. In some quotes the parallel is closer to Masoretic on others it is LXX. What do you think the reason is?
Yes Saint Paul did use points out of pagan thought when it served to help them see a point, such as when he declared their 'unknown God' knowable in Acts 17. However, we do not read of him saying or agreeing with anything contrary to Holy Scripture.
Anon 2:28 PM, telling the truth where people are used to a language of lies is like shining the light in the dark. There are many who do not want that light shone because their evil deeds will be exposed. It is the same with the evil deception of karma, when we shine the light of Gospel truth on it and compare and contrast it and show it as darkness and rot, (rather than compromising and pretending it is similar and thereby agreeing with the deception), there is a chance for the blind to see, repent, and come into the light found only in Jesus Christ.
If we choose to say anything contrary to Holy Scripture (and karma is contrary to Holy Scripture as I've already shown in previous posts) we do lie and make ourselves blind. Do you not know that if the blind lead the blind both shall fall into a ditch? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
"Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?" (Mark 8:18)
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." (Matthew 13:16)
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15)
You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them. (Isaiah 6:9-10)
Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." (John 9:39)
He who has eyes, let him see, he who has ears let him hear!
Frank.
karma separated from reincarnation and with the proviso that everything that happens is NOT a matter of justice (this was the error of Job's comforters) and that judgement may fall entirely in the afterlife, does pretty much eviscerate karma as understood by the hindus and buddhists. however, starting with a concept they understand and tweaking it to Gospel compatibility is not speaking against the Gospel.
However, what offends your conscience, don't do. "when in doubt, don't." Also, some things regardless of what you do with them can be triggering of stuff in your heart you don't need, often it is best to make a clean break with the past.
It is vital that we be as the Berean Greeks and search the Holy Scriptures diligently. God tells us that His people have gone astray through lack of knowledge, and that we should reason but not lean on our own understanding but trust Him rather than vain philosophies.
If we are handled counterfeit money and do not know the hall-marks, water-marks, and details of the genuine article we may become bankrupt and lose everything, and if we're messing with the Mafia we may lose our lives as in having our physical bodies killed. How much more important is it therefore that when we are talking about the souls of men, we do not accept or offer a counterfeit option but stand firm in preaching the Holy Gospel: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
To be read in conjuction with my other posts on this matter.
Frank
Frank,
Please be a little slower on the trigger. I wrote at 2.28pm the following words:
"I couldn't agree more that one should not compromise on the message of the gospel. All I'm saying is that the choice of words to be used when preaching in a language different from that of the gospels, to people in a culture that has not been shaped by the gospel, is not a trivial matter."
I can't imagine that you disagree with any of that. Perhaps you are unhappy that I am not acquiescing to your view that karma is intrinsically a demonic or deluded concept. You reply as follows:
"If we choose to say anything contrary to Holy Scripture (and karma is contrary to Holy Scripture as I've already shown in previous posts) we do lie and make ourselves blind. Do you not know that if the blind lead the blind both shall fall into a ditch?"
If karma means simply "the wages of sin" then it is appropriate for missionaries to use the word - they simply have to replace reincarnation with hell. If karma means something else then the situation is different. All I am saying is that I don't know exactly what karma means in (say) Bhutan, and I suspect that you don't either. I believe this is is not a theological disagreement between us, but a difference over how to preach in places like Bhutan. We cannot strand Christian missionaries with inadequate vocabulary to preach to pagan peoples in their own tongue. We are having this dialogue in English and the inhabitants of what is now England were once pagan!
Christine, there's no point tweaking a lie. We can, however, compare and contrast, and expose.
A lie, no matter how much you try, will never be compatable with the Truth.
Frank
It's not about me, it's about speaking the truth. If, as I assume, by language you refer not to Hebrew and Greek et cetera but to the substance of that which is being spoken about infused with beliefs, then I say to you I do not agree with preaching in a language different to the Gospel.
For my reasons please see my posts and Biblical references above. I have made my position clear.
I am not angry with you.
Frank
Following the reasoning being promoted here by Frank, we should just throw out all of the lawbooks in the US and base all court decisions on the Constitution. What is forgotten is the the issues spoken about in the Talmud were used to determine what was legal in the Jewish communities of the time as in the past Jews lived in their own communities and had to determine the laws by which they lived. The Talmud was used to determine legal determinations and how they came about, giving different approaches to the same situation. Even now it is studied in the same way law books are studied in the US.
Nobody is asking you to live by Talmudic laws, so mind your own business Frank. You are more of a "know it all" than a recognized authority in anything.
4:00 pm
You are wrong about the Talmud. Moses set up courts to determine the law. It's on that basis that the Talmud exists. When Jews start telling Christians which version of the Bible they must use and whether or not to accept the New Testament, then you'll have a quid pro quo. Let us know your credentials if you claim to be an authority on Judaism.
Frank, let me gladly clarify that wherever I used the word 'language' at 5.04pm I meant 'tongue' eg Hebrew, Greek, English, Hindi etc. With that understood, I do wish to stand by my statement that if karma means simply "the wages of sin" then it is appropriate for missionaries to use the word - they merely have to replace reincarnation with hell. If, however, karma means something else then the situation is different, and (depending on what it means) I might counsel missionaries to avoid it. But I don't know exactly what karma means in (say) Bhutan, and I guess that you don't either. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) In that case it is a little hasty to say that the word is never appropriate. Some scholarship is needed in order to go further.
Dear Anon@5.30pm,
This is Anon@4.00pm. You wrote these words to me: "You are wrong about the Talmud. Moses set up courts to determine the law. It's on that basis that the Talmud exists." I am mystified because that's exactly what I said - my words were "it started out as commentaries on the Torah". Because Torah contained Mosaic Law, commentaries on its interpretation in court cases sprang up.
I stand by my statement that Talmud "has been elevated in Orthodox Judaism to a source of knowledge of equal authority to the OT. The rabbis claim that it was given to Moses orally by God at the same time as the written Law, with instructions that it should be transmitted orally and not written down. This claim cannot account for the fact that the Talmud refers to the OT thousands of times but not vice-versa."
If this is wrong then you should be able to crush me with facts, not ask me for my qualifications. But I'll gladly tell you my background and sources: I am a gentile Christian who supports the existence of the State of Israel as the partial fulfilment of certain Tanakh prophecies. I pray for Israel in a monthly prayer group friendly to it (safety from its enemies, integrity of its borders, and - yes - that individual Jews should know Yeshua as divine Messiah). I have a close personal friend who is a secular Jew brought up Orthodox Jewish in Russia. Among the books I've read are "The rebirth of the State of Israel: Is it of God or men?" by Arthur Kac, a messianic Jew. My friend and Kac both say what I wrote above.
I understand what you are saying about linguistics and points of reference, Anon, but there is always possibility of expressing something, even by use of pictures, and things around us to get across a true Biblical view without compromise. The words already available to them are not the only means of communication and introduction of new words for those concepts. I believe God always provides a way without us having to compromise. If, hypothetically speaking, in Bhutan (which follows Buddhism in general and is known for its persecution of Christians) kharma (which I seriously doubt) were to be an identical concept to that of 'the wages of sin', which I'm sure it is not, that would be made apparent as the discourse progressed. However, I believe I have exposed kharma correctly.
Moreover, we can do nothing without God and all our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. We are saved by grace not works. Yet the evidence of true belief is to bear fruit that we remain in the Vine we show our faith by our works and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, yet we are really only saved by the Grace of God. That is, we are saved from the wages of sin, which is death, only by repenting and therefore believing in and obeying the Lord Jesus Christ: "Whom God has set forth to be a Propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Romans 3:25).
Frank.
"Following the reasoning being promoted here by Frank, we should just throw out all of the lawbooks in the US and base all court decisions on the Constitution"
You sound like Obama, Anon at 5:24 PM, he also doesn't understand Christianity.
'Obama mocks God and the Bible in speech of religion, obama overrides congress'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntuIDNXYoPw
The talmud? In all, nothing more than the deceptive traditions of men, many blasphemous, leading men astray:
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." Mark 7:13
The Unholy talmud has been called oral torah by its promoters, yet it is contrary to the Holy Torah (Pentateuch) found in the Holy Tanakh (Old Testament), it is another torah: 'another gospel'.
Frank
The Talmud cannot have been given to Moses, because everyone cited in it are post Babylonian Captivity and some are AD or nearly.
The Talmud is NOT the thing that is alleged to be ancient oral tradition given to Moses, that is the Kabalah. The various Midrashim or commentaries incl. ancient legends and so forth may have some historical validity. But nothing in the Talmud, except for quotes from the Torah, dates from anywhere near Moses' time.
If the Midrash incl. materials from Jubilees, Jashar, Wars of YHWH or Enoch, then this material would be closer to Moses' time. but I am not expert so I can only speculate.
I have read the Talmud. Most of it is entirely harmless from a Christian perspective.
Some has been severely misquoted or mishandled by anti semities. For instance, in the argument about whether or not to fine a man who rapes his daughter, the antisemites argue that that was the only punishment considered, when in fact the Talmud says he was to die, and the issue of the bride price was, since one is not to punish someone twice for the same sin as to whether the bride price was interpreted to go to the girl or to the father.
The issue of the rape of a child under a certain "not counting" was NOT that it didn't count against the perpetrator, but that it didn't count against her being considered a virgin who could marry a priest later.
I might add, that since God through the Prophets condemned judges who made unrighteous decisions, it follows that anything in the Talmud should be weighed carefully because it might include such wrong judgements passed along with good ones in the tradition that the later rabbis may have used.
An example of something that cannot come from Moses' time, because it deals with the circumstances of Jews in captivity, AND that shows a wrong judgement, is the statement that if ordered to privately engage in idolatry it is okay, but to do something publically that was even so much as a tiny deviation from some Jewishness identity declaring practice like something about shoes or whatever was prohibited.
On the contrary, God condemned those who secretly kept their idols with them. Secret sins brought divine wrath down on the people as well as overt public sinning.
There are other problems here and there.
In any case, the bulk of the Talmud details arguments between people like Gamaliel, Hillel and others who are very close to Jesus' time.
It is not Mosaic in origin.
In Ruth's time, you can see the beginning of problems, and this was from the time of the Book of Judges which begins and ends with the complaint that lacking a king every man did what was right in his own eyes. Some right wing semi anarchist writer took this as a good thing, but rather, it is bad, and the Book of Judges shows what happened as a result.
Before Ruth could marry Boaz, he had to get a release from a nearer relative to her dead husband. Naomi had targetted Boaz because of his relationship.
But what does the Torah say? In Deuteronomy, a widow can only claim the brother (term could mean half brother or first cousin) IF he had been living with the couple at the time of the husband's death.
NO ONE had a claim on Ruth or vice versa. However, the way the people had come to interpret it, such a claim existed and had to be dealt with.
The Sephardic Jews developed the rule that a woman HAD to release the man she would have a claim on. (See Adam Wouk, THIS IS MY GOD.)
The infamous rapist gets to marry his victim rule in Deuteronomy, is not like this, but seems supported by the Talmud. Deuteronomy puts this in context of the whole issue of adultery and so forth, a married woman is FOUND WITH her lover they are both to die. A betrothed girl ditto, she didn't cry out and the man humbled by seduction the wife of another, betrothal being equivalent to marriage then.
A betrothed virgin if seized and forced where she cannot be heard if she cried for help, is not to be punished, but the man is to die and she is compared to a murder victim, not to a robbery victim or to a stolen cow or something.
This similitude makes the act a crime against her person, not against her husband or fiance's property.
Now, the unbetrothed virgin is descried as seized or laid hold on, but THE HEBREW WORDS for seize are TOTALLY DIFFERENT not even the same root, and it also says, same wording as with the willing adulteress whose case starts this section of Deuteronomy, AND THEY ARE FOUND.
So this is a seduction, not a forcible rape. The bride price must be paid but the marriage is dependent on her father's approval,
Now, you can see how some judge whose son or other relative is in trouble might play this. or bribery.
The reason I don't like modern translations, especially paraphrases, is that they invariably miss this, though KJV and NKJV use different English words for seize one is seize one is lay hold on I forget which, and of course the "and they are found" is a clue.
Another problem would be where the perpetrator is among the Levites or other indispensable people. Similar to the problem of some Afghan anti Russian (we should have left them alone, they are all no good) rebels, who had the problem of, this guy stole a gun and has to have his hand cut off, but they need him in one piece to fight the war. How it was resolved the article didn't say.
Similar problem here.
Christine, Moses set up courts since he couldn't make all of the decisions himself when all of the people were coming to him. Just what do you think the Sanhedrin is. Read up
http://sagavyah.tripod.com/id59.html
Of course it was Oral law. Just how do you think it was passed down. By scratching on rocks? When the temple was destroyed and the body of law was large, then it was that it was written down.
Again, no one is asking you either to live by the Talmud. You are not an Orthodox Jew.
This kind of reasoning is just a precursor to belief in a one world religion where everybody's religion has to fit into some large mold that the state can find acceptable.
Orthodox Jews are going after your hides because they follow the law in the Talmud. What's it to you what they believe?
That should have read Orthodox Jews are not going after your hides because they follow the Talmud. They aren't killing Christians as the Muslims are.
If you have so much spare energy, start telling the Muslims what they are doing to Christians is not really what is meant by the Koran as the peaceful ones try to tell you is the case.
As far as the Oral Law is concerned, more primitive tribes had leaders who committed to memory tremendous amounts of information. They in turn picked followers who they judged to be able to learn. My belief is that IQs haven't gone up in thousands of years. The brain was used then to store a very large body of information which the community needed to know to live in the conditions they found themselves in. Progress was more a matter of what was valued by the community than the the size of the brain.
We are just so hotshot full of pride, not because we accomplish more than the primitives did, but because there are individuals who have progressed the information about the material world.
_"Orthodox Jews follow the law in the Talmud."
???
What ?
What law ?
What is the law in the Talmud ?
I thought that the Talmud was supposed to be a commentary and an interpretation of the Law of
God in Moses; in other words the Torah.
How do Orthodox Jews follow that, seeing as
there is no Temple in Jerusalem ?
What daily sacrifice? What sacrifice of Atonement? What Ram of Consecration ? What sin offering ?
What peace offering ? What meal offering ?
Where? How ?
I have already refuted the claim the Talmud is Mosaic, because of the people named within it as contributors. Very little could go to that time. As for primitive tribes committing tons of stuff to memory, there is no way to check that they got it right. And one anthropologist found that a traditional story told one way was being told another way by someone else in the tribe, and on asking was told "he tells it that way, I tell it this way."
God and His prophets always committed things to WRITING which is harder to corrupt on purpose or by accident.
Where in the Torah is oral tradition mentioned as a valid issue? Where in the Prophets?
As for not being asked to abide by Orthodox Jewish law, that is irrelevant. Perhaps you don't know this, but lots and lots of Christians look to precedent in The Bible to handle ethical and other practical issues.
Now, that is a very good point the last poster made.
Without The Temple and priesthood, you can't really practice your religion except as Adam Wouk described as "as if," thus charitable works substitute for sacrifices. Which is probably closer to the original intent anyway. and for Yom Kippur you got mourning and self examination, which was the intent of the Law in the first place.
But still, you lack a priesthood, you lack the holy water of the red heifer, without which you cannot be cleansed if you ever touched a dead human, and I think other things are at issue, and there are details that mean you can never have everything kosher in reality.
I never heard of Talmud claiming to date from Moses until you said this. That claim goes for the hellenizing gnostic and magical stuff of Kabbalah, not Talmud.
The people named in the Talmud are from the first centuries before and some centuries after Christ (Greek for Messiah).
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14213-talmud longwinded and detailed overview, no reference to Mosaic origins of the Talmud itself. That the Talmud INCLUDES CONTRADICTORY OPINIONS FROM DISAGREEING REPRESENTATIVES OF VARIOUS SCHOOLS OF TORAH shows that it is human not divine, and while it may be viewed by many Jews as on a par with Torah, it isn't.
I don't have to have a dog in this fight to be able to read. Torah your system says is boss. Talmud your system says also is boss because it is incredibly ancient and explains Torah.
Talmud says itself it is not as ancient, and records the total disagreement between experts regarding the Torah on several matters. Also, I can read. Here and there I can see where there is divergence between Torah and Talmud.
Okay? I have objectivity. you don't. I think that gives me an advantage, were I trying to figure out what to submit myself to (should i convert to Judaism from agnosticism if so which branch? but that decision has been made already, I am Christian and within that category Eastern Orthodox but unlike many and because of points in Scripture OT and NT some have forgotten, I am mostly pro Israel.
St. Paul said that the Jews have been blinded until the fulness of the gentiles have been brought in, but we are the wild olive branch grafted in among the domestic olive branches - the Jews - and we should not boast against the root - you guys - and they are still beloved by God for the fathers' sake. Its in Romans.
Peace in Messiah (Greek is Christos both mean Anointed One) Jesus.
Christine, you wrote
"God and His prophets always committed things to WRITING which is harder to corrupt on purpose or by accident."
OK. Maybe you know something I can document. In what language and in what year was Genesis recorded in writing? I presume you are saying that God wrote down the creation process on something that never disintegrated and gave it to someone. Do you know how silly that sounds?
You write: "because of the people named within it as contributors. Very little could go to that time." Now you claim to be an expert in ancient languages who has studied for years in Jewish archives? Does the word delusional have any meaning in your world?
Would you share the anthropologist's name? Or did you just make up the information which I suspect.
Judaism has its authorities just as Christianity does. I prefer to use them rather than to think about things you make up on the spot, particularly things of which you know nothing. I don't have the physicist's patience.
Stick to writing the fiction you do about occult practices. There are people who will believe you and make you feel good about yourself because they haven't studied much. You can't do much damage because no one here is going to start getting involved in the occult. You won't make them look stupid if they ever start quoting you. You are entertaining, but not much else. Your mind is very much like an encyclopedia that has been torn to shreds and you come along and say you make sense of the shreds of paper that are flying around by putting them together.
"Who is this that darkeneth counsel without knowledge"? (says the Lord out of the whirlwind. Job 38:1)
Does that "shoe" seem like it fits more than a few posts on this blog?
And another thing,in the multitude of words there lacketh not sin the Word also says.
Isn't the Bible great?
first off, i don't go by Christian authorities when they go against The Bible.
Second, as for Genesis, by the time God arranged for Moses to have written things to compile, and/or revealed all that was needed, it was written in Hebrew, c. 1545 BC.
Prior to that, writings existed in Mesopotamia discussing The Flood, but warped due to the development of paganism and no sense of holy responsibility to keep a record pure of error.
Abraham came out of Ur of the Chaldees, which was literate. Writing was around even before that the Sumerians.
Abraham's family apparently kept pretty much to the Ya or YHWH (north Semitic version of the the name of Ea the only god in the Mesopotamian pantheons that the demons feared and the one who warned Utnapishtim, so this has to be a memory of YHWH before He was forgotten by most) faith, and would have had some records however parse.
Now, I NEVER claimed to be an expert in languages. you ask about delusion on my part, on the basis of things I never wrote or thought.
How does lying sound as a problem of yours? Where did I even HINT I can speak any language other than English?
I don't need to do so, only to read what those who DO know this stuff have said.
Now, following authorities in one's religion is all very well, but you must always check them against the core material for they can go wrong.
Their only basis for authority is that they are correctly expounding your faith. So they should be able to prove it, or rather, what they say should stand up against what is written earlier.
As for Islam, sorry, but the fanatics in fact are closer to the dictates of the koran than the moderates, though you can treat the koran as giving fanatic violent recommendations only for some contexts.
In fact, the fanatics DO exceed the koran which says to not harm those who follow a religion of the book, incl. Christians, as long as they pay the dhimmi tax and don't try to harm moslems.
There are things in Shariah law which are contrary to koran and hadith, but not much. however, those that are, are damn serious for the wellbeing of moslems and non moslems.
I repeat, follow no authority in your religion beyond what the documents that authority claims to represent in fact support that authority.
By the way, how do you deal with this one. In Genesis, Jacob blesses his sons and says that the scepter and a lawgiver will not depart from Judah until Shiloh (he whose right it is to rule or something like that) comes.
Who is Shiloh? ask as many rabbis as possible about that one. Sooner or later one is bound to admit that that refers to the Messiah.
Now, Judah was ruled by Judaean lineage rulers spec. Davidic lineage, even the puppet rulers appointed by foreign kings, UNTIL HEROD, an Idumaean, not Judaean, not even Hebrew.
Guess Who else turned up about that time. The prophecies of the suffering servant in Isaiah are nowdays interpreted to mean the Jewish people, but how then is this person called all sorts of names like Prince of Peace and so forth, and takes our sins and so forth on him, and the rulership prophecies and dying prophecies about the Messiah can only be reconciled by a resurrection! and a second coming to
fulfill all this.
"They will look on Him Who they have pierced" Zechariah I think it is, relevant to the Second Coming when the Jews will recognize Jesus is the Messiah.
I read that there was in some Jewish Messianic speculation the idea that there were two Messiahs, one that would die a Messiah ben Joseph and one that would rule forever, a Messiah ben David, to reconcile the two streams of Messianic prophecy. Another rabbi noted the strong hints of divinity about the Messiah in the OT, and rejecting this cursed any who said He is divine, that this would have to be a misinterpretation of these passages.
Do the research. A lot of Jews have done the research, and many converted to Christianity of one sort or another.
For those who want to know what the Talmud is about, there is an abridged version on the internet. English translations are sold through Amazon, so there are write ups there also. There are different compilations of the information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
"The whole Talmud consists of 63 tractates, and in standard print is over 6,200 pages long. It is written in Tannaitic Hebrew and Aramaic. The Talmud contains the opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects, including law, ethics, philosophy, customs, history, theology, lore and many other topics. The Talmud is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature."
The instant experts writing here probably can't pronounce the words much less understand what is written.
Those who want to have faith that all there is to know about the study of religion can be found in some translation or other of the New Testament and their particular interpretation are welcome to have faith wherever they can put it together. I won't tell them what to think.
I said Old Testament - that is Torah, Prophets, Writings, Psalms, etc. AND New Testament.
I have read several books of the Talmud some years ago. Granted it wasn't all 6300 pages. That wasn't available anyway, but several volumes were. I don't remember most of it, just the stuff that got my attention.
Ever heard of the Karaite Jews? I think the Jewish Encyclopedia online article I posted a link to mentions them. They rejected the Talmud as too removed from Torah. Too much innovation, too many removes in terms of authorities quoting authorities and (to use protestant terminology to describe what they wanted) the pure word of God was to be focussed on.
so you see, my remarks are not without precedent in Judaism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism
they consider each Jew must study and decide its interpretation for himself. they got established in the early 7th century AD.
I might add, this is the same flaw in Christian circles as the Karaites saw in rabbinic circles.
Protestants draw heavily on various protestant writers of times past and modern hot shot prophecy experts and preachers to explain the Bible. RC depends on its traditional pile on pile the same sort of house of cards of authorities building on authorities. EO to a lesser extent falls into this, though the unchangeableness of liturgy and creed put a brake on this if the listener is paying attention and is hearing in their own language. These in turn derive directly from the Hebrew Scriptures mostly and some from the New Testament.
I might add, this is the same flaw in Christian circles as the Karaites saw in rabbinic circles.
Protestants draw heavily on various protestant writers of times past and modern hot shot prophecy experts and preachers to explain the Bible. RC depends on its traditional pile on pile the same sort of house of cards of authorities building on authorities. EO to a lesser extent falls into this, though the unchangeableness of liturgy and creed put a brake on this if the listener is paying attention and is hearing in their own language. These in turn derive directly from the Hebrew Scriptures mostly and some from the New Testament.
Did you realize that if a rabbi were to preach a sermon in Greek about the Messiah he would have to use the word Christos? That is Greek for Messiah.
So why don't you go find a list online of all the ways Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecy, then go to those points in the Old Testament (Hebrew Scriptures) and try to prove it wrong.
Go find some ex rabbi online who converted to Christianity and find out why.
I am stating here firmly that I know a certain poster here who is a 10'6" red headed male who lives in a hut behind Burger King in the middle of Croatia. I know that. Trust me. She writes on papyrus which she rushes to the nearest Fedex and it appears quickly at this site. I know all about Fedex and papyrus so you know I'm telling the truth. I've written before about huts and have studied them in detail.
I know you all believe me because I am trustworthy and care deeply about my fellow woman. And I know all about the New Age movement because I trust Alex Jones, sometimes. However you have to be very careful not to trust everything he says. You know that.
I can't wait to share more about what I know with you. When I tell you about that Czekoslovakian Grove that is worse than Bohemian Grove, I'm sure you will thank me.
I can go on like this for many posts and just may if the mood strikes me and if the moon is high enough in the sky. After all I know all about ghosts and UFOs and wolves and what a witch told me once about Christine.
We are again into disappearing posts, so I will leave. Why bother writing a response if it disappears.
Evidently there are some here **!who know more than God!**so must post and post and post only to strain at gnats(pointless junk info)and swallow camels(choke on the Truth that would cut to the chase to discern the old old lies).
A catastrophic fail at helping people get to the actual Truth because the wade through %&*^)@%#$ is neck-deep and getting higher....
"Orthodox Jews are [not] going after your hides because they follow the law in the Talmud. What's it to you what they believe?"
The Christian answer is that the salvation of the Jews is tied up with the salvation of the whole world - which is not surprising given that the Jews remain a covenant people.
Talmud includes much that is good, but it is of man not of God, as proven by the fact that it references Torah thousands of times but not vice-versa.
The origins of the Book of Genesis came up in discussion above. Easily the most convincing view is that of the appropriately named PJ Wiseman, a member of the Brethren who served in the British Armed Forces in the Middle East between the wars. (His son became a professor of Assyriology at London U.) He recognized from his knowledge of how the ancients signified headings and "to be continued" at the top and bottom of ancient tablets that Moses compiled Genesis fro such tablets; Genesis preserves those indicators, also indicating its integrity as an unchanged text. Moreover there are no anachronisms within each of the segments of Genesis that he discerns according to the word TOLEDOTH ('generations'), strongly suggesting that the source tablets were contemporary with the events they describe. This hypothesis also gives a good explanation of the different names of God appearing in the Genesis compilation - different authors. Wiseman wrote his ideas up in several books as his understanding deepened; the best is "Ancient records and the structure of Genesis". For a summary, see:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/Toledoth.html#key
The story of creation is complex and fascinating. http://www.setterfield.org/Havilah.html
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/Genesis_texts.html
nahttp://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6580-genesis-the-book-of
Christine you have written, erroneously trying to correct me on something you obviously no nothing about (6:29 PM) : “The Talmud is NOT the thing that is alleged to be ancient oral tradition given to Moses, that is the Kabalah.”Christine, even wikipedia tells you the talmud is known [erroneously, I confess] as oral torah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah
You say you've read it? If so, well done, for it is very volumnous indeed!
There is much which is offensive to Christian and truly Tanakh following Jew alike.
There are two versions of talmud, the Jerusalem(Yerushalmi)Talmud and the Babylonian (Bavli) Talmud.
Many of editions of those which are written in English are edited so as not to cause controversy.
The talmud has some very unsavoury things to say about gentiles. That is why, without batting an eyelid, people such as Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro feel justified to write: "It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder."
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/west-bank-rabbi-jews-can-kill-gentiles-who-threaten-israel-1.4496
Does this mean all Jews think like 'Rabbi' Yitzhak Shapiro? Certainly not! Neither is there any cause to be against Jews. For me, this evidences the truth, rather than take away from the truth that we are informed of in Ephesians 6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I am bored with your know-it-all atitude and Gnosis, Christine. I’ve tried with you, I really have, but you’re more interested in strutting about like a peacock, pretending your oh-so knowledgeable.
I shall try and refrain from posting too often, will you Christine?
The Lord rebuke you.
Frank.
Christine is afflicted with a gnosis neurosis and an "aptitude" with attitude............sad.
I refer readers to Frank's comment that he knows little about Judaism, which is why he has to depend on his let's say very strange friends for things to write about it.
Readers who want the truth do not have to depend on what is posted here by anyone.
Put the ideas you want to learn more about into a search. Read as many links as you have time for.
The best use of this blog is to get leads for further information on the New Age movement. However, do searches to see whether what is posted here actually has something to do with the New Age movement or if it is just some topic another person finds interesting. Constance's posts are the only ones that should be understood clearly as being connected with the New Age movement as she is an expert on the topic.
Regarding Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, several things must be taken into account. His school is located in the West Bank which is a place where there have been many brutal killings of Jews by Palestinians. It is a war zone. The number of missiles sent into Israel by Palestinians has necessitated bomb shelters where Jews can go on a moment's notice.
One cannot expect Israelis to sit by and allow themselves to be killed without retaliation. In the retaliation there will be civilian killings. His comment was to answer the question whether retaliation can take place where there is a chance that innocent lives will be taken. In that Palestinians deliberately set up missile sites out of civilian areas, how should it be answered.
Note his comment about seven commandments. Those are the Noahide commandments which Jews believe were given to all mankind, not the 613 by which Orthodox Jews attempt to live or the ten commandments usually referred to.
Now New Age comes into the picture here. New Age demonizes Orthodox Jews in particular. There are New Age Jews, although they probably don't know themselves by that label, in Israel and the rest of the world. They use every opportunity to demonize Orthodox Jews for the same reasons all New Agers do. Then there are those who believe peace can be reached if one side, the Jewish side, is peaceful, because then the Palestinians and Muslims will automatically become peaceful. Then you have the standard antisemites who will attack Jews, hiding their agenda while pretending to be gentle folk. It's a standard propaganda practice these days.
One quote from an Orthodox Jew, taken out of context, gets much publicity from these sources as shown by a Google search. It's as if a quote from a Dominion Christian would be taken out of context to show all Christians have a power hungry political aspect to their agenda.
Christine, you also stated: "Where in the Torah is oral tradition mentioned as a valid issue? Where in the Prophets?"
Earlier, Christine, I showed you a verse (13) from Mark 7. If you’d been as the Berean Greek, you’d have known that just preceding this verse the Lord Jesus Christ tells us the prophet Isiaiah shows how the traditions of men (oral tradition – often now written) contradict the word of God. Remember our discussion about honoring one’s parents? Well, the Fifth Commandment (from the Torah, that is, the genuine one) is what is being discussed in verses 10 to 12 of Mark 7. Showing how the stench of gnostic pompous laws of the oral traditions, which happens to be what the talmud is full of, contradict the laws of God.
Isaiah 29:13-16(KJV)
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Mark 7 (KJV)
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/otesources/02-exodus/Text/Articles/Bailey-5thCommand-ResQ.pdf
Frank
Do you believe Jesus Christ's words on this Christine?
I don't ask you to trust me, but re-iterate St. Paul in emploring all to be as Berean Greeks and search the Holy Scriptures diligently to see if a matter is true or not. I personally believe Jesus Christ's words and also believe Him where in Matthew 5, verses 17 -18, He says: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
And remember Romans 3:3 -4 :
"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
I suggest you also check out the so-called Noahide laws not found anywhere in the Holy Bible, which the Unholy talmud advocates, and how they contradict the Torah and Prophets as well as the New Testament. Under these laws (which some look fine on the surface of things – but dig deeper, because they’ve clauses and clarifications) Christians are called Idolaters, the punishment of which, is death by beheading!
http://christian-wilderness.forumvi.com/t68p300-the-noahide-laws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foFsFOV42pI
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=848
Do your own research!
P.S., 1:01PM (I’m sure regular posters know who you are, spitting venom from the weeds – coward!) The more you do this, the more I will expose and shine the light of truth in those vile crevices of man made tradition, gnosticism and darkness.
Frank.
"comment about seven commandments. Those are the Noahide commandments which Jews believe were given to all mankind, not the 613 by which Orthodox Jews attempt to live or the ten commandments usually referred to. Now New Age comes into the picture here. New Age demonizes Orthodox Jews in particular. There are New Age Jews, although they probably don't know themselves by that label, in Israel and the rest of the world. They use every opportunity to demonize Orthodox Jews for the same reasons all New Agers do. Then there are those who believe peace can be reached if one side, the Jewish side, is peaceful, because then the Palestinians and Muslims will automatically become peaceful."
I regard this as a mixture. No Jew or Christian could possibly object to the Noahide commands, but I doubt that they were given to all the world or they would be in the parts of the Book of Genesis that relate to all mankind, prior to the dispersion and the covenant with Abraham. This claim is in the same apocryphal category as the notion that God offered the Law to all the peoples of the world and only the Jews said Yes, which is an obvious example of Jewish pride. (In case you suspect I am antisemitic - I am not ashamed that my Messiah was and is a Jew.)
New Age demonizes Orthodox Jews AND CHRISTIANS - people who have accurate scriptures about the true God. As for the New Age Jews who don't know themselves by that label, aren't they the Kabbalists?
Finally, I totally agree that the Jewish nation has the right of self-defense in the Holy Land from the people of Islam, an aggressive creed as the koran makes clear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws
"Noachide Laws comprise the six laws which were given to Adam in the Garden of Eden, according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8] and a seventh one, which was added after the Flood of Noah. Later, at the Revelation at Sinai, the Seven Laws of Noah were re-given to humanity and embedded in the 613 Laws given to the Children of Israel along with the Ten Commandments,
The Hebrew Bible does not explicitly mention the Law in connection with Noah, nor that there were seven laws.
After the flood, God sealed a covenant with Noah with the following admonitions (Genesis 9):
Food: "However, flesh with its life-blood [in it], you shall not eat." (9:4)
Murder: "Furthermore, I will demand your blood, for [the taking of] your lives, I shall demand it [even] from any wild animal. From man too, I will demand of each person's brother the blood of man. He who spills the blood of man, by man his blood shall be spilt; for in the image of God He made man." (9:5–6)"
Until the giving of the commandments on Sinai, humanity was bound by the laws given in the Garden of Eden. To say there were no laws given by God to humanity in general would suggest that lawlessness was God's method for humanity that did not specifically receive commandments.
2:23 New Age Jews are not kabbalists any more than Christian New Agers are. (You do know there is something called Christian Kabbalah don't you?) They are people who believe they have a better way for humanity to live by than that which is found in the Bible. New Age ideas are those they follow.
Christians are target, but not all who call themselves Christian are targeted. Only fundamentalist Christians. Social justice Christians fit right in as do Jews who have left their religion behind.
I don't want to go into a belief in Christian mystical beliefs. They do not make someone a Christian New Ager.
Anon@2.23pm,
To suggest that most of the Noahide laws can be derived from Genesis 2:16 is nonsensical eisegesis. There was only one law in the Garden of Eden: Do not eat the fruit of a particular tree.
There was no need for any other laws at that point, because it never entered Adam and Eve's heads to murder or to do other bad things before they ate the forbidden fruit.
After that unhappy event, laws were needed, and God moved to provide them in His own time. He made it clear that murder was a bad thing in the tale of Cain and Abel even though no legislation yet existed. He added the no-murder law after the Flood, and the no-undrained-meat law (which too few Christians today understand applies to them). Why no laws immediately after the fruit-eating? Well, what do you think Adam and Eve's reaction would have been once God had issued those curses?
It would have been counter-productive for God to issue laws until people were willing to take them seriously. But everybody was hard-hearted since Genesis 3. So He waited until He had rescued a set of people from an impossible situation, and they were then willing to listen to Him.
Anon at 2:54 PM, you have written very succinctly and truthfully indeed: "OK, 2.40pm, not all New Age Jews are Kabbalists, but all Kabbalistic Jews are New Age Jews."
"Christian Kabbalists? There's a guy in a nearby town who calls himself a "Christian agnostic" and picks and chooses his verses and doctrines. People can call themselves what they like but it is Christ who will decide."
I agree with you entirely.
However, I will add something very important to this discussion and that is that NOT all Jews follow the Talmud, or know precisely what it entails even if they do, and that the Unholy talmud contradicts the Holy Tanakh.
Many Jews do not have anything to do with kabbalah nor even remotely understand what dangers and evil is contained therein (even though quite a few Rabbis sadly practise it).
And of course, there are Jews, both Messianic and sadly not yet, who know both the dangers in the talmud and the kabbalah (including zohar) and they oppose both.
What I post I post in a love for God and His Truth, and a love for both Jew and Gentile alike.
Christian love,
Frank.
Anon 2:23 PM, you say:
"according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8]"
Why don't you just say, according gnostic to the traditions of men? For that's all the talmud's position on this is.
Frank
2:49 PM, I agree entirely with you: "To suggest that most of the Noahide laws can be derived from Genesis 2:16 is nonsensical eisegesis. There was only one law in the Garden of Eden: Do not eat the fruit of a particular tree... It would have been counter-productive for God to issue laws until people were willing to take them seriously. But everybody was hard-hearted since Genesis 3. So He waited until He had rescued a set of people from an impossible situation, and they were then willing to listen to Him.
"
Christian love,
Frank.
Hi Frank, this is Anon@2.54pm and in fact I'm the guy who was discussing karma with you earlier. Greetings in Christ and thank you for your kind words at 4.49pm.
Talmud is partly good, partly bad, but the point is not whether it is good or bad but whether it is of God or man. We agree that it is of man.
New Age aint so new either - Irenaeus gave it a good beating when it was called Gnosticism shortly after Christ.
Anon 2:23 PM, you write:
"according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8]"
Instead, why don't you write, according to the gnostic traditions of men?
For that's all the talmud's position on this is, and the talmud contradicts the Holy Tanakh! So what will it be? Will you be hard-hearted in pride and follow the teachings of men in the Unholy Talmud, or give God's Word and Truth a try as told by Moses and the Prophets, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the Holy Tanakh!
Frank
2:49 - Since what is called the Old Testament is the Jewish religion, I will listen to those authorities. Why oh why should I listen to an anonymous person who documents nothing. The Bible has a history. I don't disregard that history in favor of personal speculation.
Frank - forget it. You have no idea what information sensible people share among each other. Others may listen to you. Free will and all that.
Anon 2:23 PM, you write:
"according to the Talmud's interpretation of Gen 2:16,[8]"
Instead, why don't you write, according to the gnostic traditions of men?
For that's all the talmud's position on this is, and the talmud contradicts the Holy Tanakh! So what will it be? Will you be hard-hearted in pride and follow the teachings of men in the Unholy Talmud, or give God's Word and Truth a try as told by Moses and the Prophets, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in the Holy Tanakh!
Frank
5:02 PM, we want you to listen to the authorities of the Holy Tanakh (otherwise known as the Old Testament), rather than the evil gnosticism and traditions of men found in the Unholy Talmud and Unholy Zohar aka Unholy Kabbalah!
Why not try Proverbs ["MÃshlê Shlomoh"] written down by Solomon, I like Chapter 30 verse 4 (KJV) myself:
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His Fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the Earth? What is His Name, AND WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, IF THOU CANST TELL?"
Isaiah is another favorite of mine, in Chapter 7 Verse 14 (KJV) we read:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel".
(Immanuel means God with us by the way).
Or how about Isaiah Chapter 9, Verses 6, 7, & 8:
6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
7 "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."
8 "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel."
Frank : Continued ...
... Continued here
Another that is amazing and true is Isaiah 53:
1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"
2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."
3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."
4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."
5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."
6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
7 "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth."
8 "He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."
9 "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth."
10 "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."
11 "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
12 "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Furthermore, I challenge you, turn from the evil traps set in the wicked talmud and accept the wisdom, more precious than silver, to be found throughout the Holy Tanakh (Old Testament), including the conclusion that an honest reader and earnest seeker must come to, that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, and that the Messiah is divine and God the Son as illustrated by the Prophets! The importance of doing this is reiterated in what Ezekiel, inspired by the Holy Spirit, has written down, where we find the Lord God pleading in love:
Ezekiel 18:31
"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
Ezekiel 33:11
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
There are many many more of great interest, including that which I posted earlier. So, go on -give it a try, you can't lose!
Frank.
Dear 5.02pm,
You wrote, in response to mine of 2.49pm, "Since what is called the Old Testament is the Jewish religion, I will listen to those authorities. Why oh why should I listen to an anonymous person who documents nothing. The Bible has a history. I don't disregard that history in favor of personal speculation."
If you don't want to listen to me then why do you reply? And if you reply then why do you insult rather than refute?
Sure the Tanakh has a history, and we probably agree about it. So does the Talmud, and that is where we differ.
A point made in my challenge to you, 5:02 PM, should read: 'Messiah is Divine'. You see, only God is Divine, we ourselves are NOT Divine Sparks. To claim otherwise is blasphemy!
Frank
Why do I reply Frank? It's because you distort what Judaism is about to those who read here. You view Judaism not in a neutral manner, but through what you have read and believe. I can see you have done no research on your own.
There is no difference between how you view Judaism and how some uninformed Jews view Christianity. I have seen written reports of the ugly things Christians have done to Jews. These timelines go on for many, many pages. Those who put these timelines together believe that Christians cannot be trusted as they will turn on Jews in an eye blink. They believe it is because of what Christians believe. In the last 100 years millions of Jews were killed in Christian countries. All of the research showing that it was not believing Christians who did these things will not change the minds of people whose minds are set on the historical record. That these things were done in the name of Christianity means nothing to them.
There are many beliefs in Christianity that have been challenged by those outside that faith. Because you have not heard them does not mean they do not exist. Would you hearing them change your faith? I doubt it. I'm not about to present them here.
I see Christianity in another light. Those who believe firmly in Christianity follow it.
You have your faith and I have mine. Except at the academic level these challenges to each other's faith are never heard. That's important. Uninformed people talking away to other uninformed people only leads to confrontation.
In my opinion what would be the purpose?
Christians contribute in a positive manner to a community moral belief system that I support, I'm not about to go head to head on theological, historical differences. Judaism believes that an individual owes a responsibility to God and to other members of the community. I am trying to live up to that without attacking Christian beliefs.
It's not my role to pat you on the head for accepting some Jewish beliefs. I do not in turn have to accept Christian theological beliefs. Christianity is based on Jewish beliefs which continued on after Christianity took political hold. I can just agree with you on moral beliefs that affect community members that we hold in common. That's as far as I will go. Your distortion of what Judaism is about hurts that alliance.
I know you cannot accept this. For you knowing that you are right about your religion is more important than anything else. I feel no need to go in that direction.
"There is no difference between how you view Judaism and how some uninformed Jews view Christianity. I have seen written reports of the ugly things Christians have done to Jews. These timelines go on for many, many pages. Those who put these timelines together believe that Christians cannot be trusted as they will turn on Jews in an eye blink. They believe it is because of what Christians believe. In the last 100 years millions of Jews were killed in Christian countries. All of the research showing that it was not believing Christians who did these things will not change the minds of people whose minds are set on the historical record. That these things were done in the name of Christianity means nothing to them."
I can tell that this is not your own position, and I am glad of that. I too have read those horrendous reports, although anybody who thinks that the New Testament encourages such behavior needs to read it for themselves. I am not convinced that the maltreatment of Jews at the hands of self-proclaimed Christians makes that less likely, for if someone is oppressing me I want to know what drives them. For instance, Islam is going to be a real threat to my land in a generation's time and that is precisely why I looked at the koran. I'd never have bothered if Islam had remained in the Middle East rather than colonising European cities.
Two points:
1. The phrase "In the name of Christianity" makes no sense. You can have "In the name of Christ" or "In the name of the church." There is a big historical difference between the two, unhappily.
2. There is no such thing as a "Christian country". There never has been and there never will be until Christ returns. The New Covenant is with the individual believer. Christians have often influenced the laws of their lands for the better but no gentile nation has a national covenant with God. That is Israel's unique privilege.
where is oral law considered a valid issue - I said a VALID ISSUE that is something true and worthy and from God, not merely that it exists. No the Talmud is NOT "full" of contradiction to the Torah but it does have some contradiction.
the existence of traditions of men going astray from Torah is as you point out mentioned in the prophets and exemplified in the wrong extension of the law that tolerated levirate marriage (which first appears in Judah's family with Canaanite women then caught on) to incl. men not living with the couple at the husband's death see Book of Ruth.
As for such discussions not being heard outside of academia, that is ridiculous. I see you are unable to answer the claims of Christ/Messiah or afraid to research them lest you find you can't answer them, and are falling back on social propriety
(what pettiness).
you have your faith and we have ours?
We have our faith many of us because we examined our previous WRONG faiths and found the right one, whether they be gnosticism variants, overt atheism some formal religion, or whatever, those of us who converted to Christianity and weren't raised in it.
Faith isn't about make believe and social identity. It is about matters as serious as electronics.
suppose you took your attitude about faith and applied it to wiring a house, and insisted on using the inadequate and electrocution causing no grounding wires etc. rules of long ago?
Anon 1:07 AM,
I distort nothing! It is sad you cannot see the Messiah, Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha'Mashiach) the Only Begotten Son of God through Whom all things were made, so brilliantly prophesied and spoken of throughout the Tanakh, as illustrated by the Holy Scripture from the Holy Tanakh I have just shared with you. Go back, read them again, I urge you.
I do not agree that the talmud and zohar-kabbalah are true Judaism, in fact I believe that such have led Jews astray, and have sadly and wrongly helped result in much Jewish suffering, including that of Tanakh believing and Messianic Jews. The talmud is Pharisaism (also spelled phariseeism) not true Judaism.
[ http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Phariseeism ]
I believe Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha'Mashiach) on this issue, He's a Jew too you know!
I have cousins who racially are half German-Jewish and who had family members suffer during the Holocaust, I feel very humble to write this but is is true. They themselves believe in Jesus Christ and folllow Him. I love them very dearly and would give my own life not only to defend them but any Jew that was in danger. I despise Anti-Semitism, but I see not telling the truth as adding to Anti-Semitism.
[Very long sentence following]
When ignorant people, especially those ignorant of God's Love, find out about the evil things in kabbalah and in talmud, such as the Noahide (Noachide) laws and how such describe worshipping Jesus Christ as idolotous for which they should be put to death by beheading, yet don't understand this is a spiritual battle and we fight not flesh and blood,and that the Devil has tricked Jewish people into promoting this because he wants to destroy both Christians and Jews spiritually and / or physically, when ignorant people discover this, and then are told they're being Anti-Semitic or dangerous for exposing it, this SADLY and WRONGLY helps to cause many of them to become Anti-Semitic.
Sadly, not all who profess ot being Chrisitans are able to rightly spiritually discern (such discernment comes by following what is written in Holy Scripture and by being guided by the Holy Spirit).
These too may find out about the Noachide laws, the blasphemies contained in the talmud against Jesus Christ, and the witchcraft of Kabbalah. I repeat not all of those Christians realise that this is a spiritual war, and that we fight not flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places, and furthermore not all of those Christians realise that many Jews do not realise the filth contained within the talmud, its Noachide laws, and the Zohar Kabbalah, and many others who do, reject talmud, its Noachide laws, and Zohar-Kabbalah, such as the followers of Karaite Judaism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism ), and Messianic Jews.
Romans 2:28-29 :
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
I have made clear in my posts so far that I understand many Jewish people even practitioners do not see the evil involved in Zohar-Kabbalah, just as many practising New Agers see no harm in practising their false beliefs, but such are wrong.
Frank Continued:...
Frank's previous post continued here:
If you're aware, poster, of those contents contained within the sub-clauses of the seven Noachide laws which call Christians idolaters and call for their death by beheading, and if you're aware of the blasphemous things said against the Messiah within talmud and yet deny they are there, then you must realise that such denial sadly assists the WARPED THINKING OF SOME THAT MAY SAY THEY ARE CHRISTIANS yet are unable to rightly spiritually discern. Such may still discover the contents of the Noahide laws and learn about the dangerous and disgusting things against Christians contained in the so-called Noahide Laws (which have many sub-laws, not just the original 7 which at first glance don't seem too bad).
They, and others reading there comments online who may not be Christians even in name, may see this as a fleshly threat coming from the Jews (not even distinguishing at all), rather than recognizing it as a spiritual one for which the Devil and his fallen angels and only those deliberately diseminating it are to blame. Yet even those who say they are Jews, but are only one outwardly, and are of the Synagogue of Satan, intent on murdering Christians should not be hurt physically at all. For as Christians we are to love our enemies, and not fight flesh and blood but fight spiritually, expose, exhort, rebuke and refute, encourage or discourage, but never raise a violent hand!
I have made clear in my posts so far, and repeat here that I understand many Jewish people even practitioners do not see the evil involved in Zohar-Kabbalah, just as many practising New Agers see no harm in practising their false beliefs, but such are wrong.
My position as a Christian towards others is to love them.
Suppose there's a man called Fred on the block who looks out his slightly ajar window on the second floor every morning, and he loves to be spoken gently and politely to, and loves to receive a gentle wave every morning from his neighbors passing by, and doesn't like to hear things that may worry him. Suppose one morning Flames and smoke are seen rising from Fred's home. Passers by notice it yet Fred hasn't realised the great danger that he may perish in the flames. George passes by and gives him his usual friendly wave and gentle greeting, he sees the danger but says nothing (hoping it'll go away) not wanting to worry Fred, yet steven rushes up and shouts at Fred, 'FRED! GET OUT NOW! YOUR HOME'S ON FIRE! OR YOU'LL PERISH!, Steven's waving is not gentle but is vehement. Please tell me, who has shown love? Surely Steven!
I am commanded by God to spread the Gospel, sound the trumpet where danger lurks, to shine the light of the Gospel and expose and rebuke wickedness hiding in the darkness.
Frank Continued: ...
Third Part of Frank's previous 2 posts here:
I will continue to warn of danger, stand up against bullies and false doctrines, and if I won't (which I will not) support false teachings even by silence elsewhere, why should I stay silent about those false teachings which do now distort much of the Jewish people's thinking. I love Jews and believe they have a right to hear the Gospel too. Besides, I am to please God rather than man.
It is not my intention to hurt you, poster, and I am saddened if that is so, but it is my intention to rebuke bullying and false teachings which come against Holy Scripture. Many, many Jews and Christians have been murdered throughout history - often by those who pretend they belong to either group and evidently there actionsa show they do not!
I beseech people, research the Noahide laws, and the Lubervitcher Chabad, as well as Rabbi Schneerson and their influence on US Government policy making. The Noahide laws are in part already US law, since George Bush Snr signed them into law, for whatever reason.
Revelation 20:4 :
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Kabbalah... The Perpetuated Evil 1/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frw6W1UiLjk
Kabbalah... The Perpetuated Evil 2/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKh8iZRFA40
Kabbalah... The Perpetuated Evil 3/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88mqj-ID7dg
Kabbalah Secrets Revealed! An Expose 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70P_13nVG0w
Kabbalah Secrets Revealed! An Expose 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COPWJeMV7AU
Madonna's Kabbalah Center Exposed !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nyJAj-4AUM
Revelation 3:9
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you."
Ephesians 6:12: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Frank.
No Christine, not merely some of the talmud but much of the talmud's content is contrary to God's Law in the Holy Tanakh (and New Testament too, this contains books inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by Jews too you know). Moreover, the whole notion of the talmud, spiritually speaking, and the talmud's legalism are totally contrary to God's Law.
You continued in 11:17 AM, and here I totally agree with you: "As for such discussions not being heard outside of academia, that is ridiculous. I see you are unable to answer the claims of Christ/Messiah or afraid to research them lest you find you can't answer them, and are falling back on social propriety
(what pettiness)."
"You have your faith and we have ours?"
"We have our faith many of us because we examined our previous WRONG faiths and found the right one, whether they be gnosticism variants, overt atheism some formal religion, or whatever, those of us who converted to Christianity and weren't raised in it."
Very well put!
Frank.
Faith isn't about make believe and social identity. It is about matters as serious as electronics.
suppose you took your attitude about faith and applied it to wiring a house, and insisted on using the inadequate and electrocution causing no grounding wires etc. rules of long ago?
I signed in the midst of the citation of Christine's comment on last post. I'll try again:
No Christine, not merely some of the talmud but much of the talmud's content is contrary to God's Law in the Holy Tanakh (and New Testament too, this contains books inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by Jews too you know). Moreover, the whole notion of the talmud, spiritually speaking, and the talmud's legalism are totally contrary to God's Law.
You continued in 11:17 AM, and here I totally agree with you: "As for such discussions not being heard outside of academia, that is ridiculous. I see you are unable to answer the claims of Christ/Messiah or afraid to research them lest you find you can't answer them, and are falling back on social propriety
(what pettiness)."
"You have your faith and we have ours?"
"We have our faith many of us because we examined our previous WRONG faiths and found the right one, whether they be gnosticism variants, overt atheism some formal religion, or whatever, those of us who converted to Christianity and weren't raised in it."
"Faith isn't about make believe and social identity. It is about matters as serious as electronics."
"Suppose you took your attitude about faith and applied it to wiring a house, and insisted on using the inadequate and electrocution causing no grounding wires etc. rules of long ago?"
Very well put!
Frank.
I have just posted some videos and am immediately reposting 2 of them because I want to reiterate the importance of watching them. I URGE all to see the excellent expose posted by a brave Christian, whose videos I follow, Susan (SEK4110).
She exposes the evil kabbalah by showing the admissions made by Doreen Dotan, a kabbalist who calls herself a jew but is of the synagogue of Satan. Very important expose, friends.
Kabbalah Secrets Revealed! An Expose 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70P_13nVG0w
Kabbalah Secrets Revealed! An Expose 2/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COPWJeMV7AU
Frank.
Btw, I would defend (by housing and hiding, feeding etc, and by speaking out against false doctrines and beliefs)Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, even New Agers if I thought their lives were in danger.
I would not encourage false belief and practise though and would defend their right to hear the truth of the Gospel and rebuke and correct them even unto the death, because they or others may even kill my body for doing so.
I believe that apart from Jesus of Nazareth, who is both God and Messiah, all men have fallen short of the Glory of God and their righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. The only way to Father God is through His Son Jesus Christ, by the Great Price the Messiah God the Son Jesus of Nazareth paid for us all by becoming a propitiation, as was foretold by Isaiah:
Isaiah 53 Verses 3 -
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for OUR transgressions, he was bruised for OUR iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Wake up Dorothy! And repent! For God is not a respecter of persons, God is not racist! For why will you die in your sins? Stop defending Kabbalah witchcraft, which is condemned in Deuteronomy 18, believe in Jesus Christ, that He died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead, and be saved!
For there is no difference between Jew or Greek [Gentile] for those in Christ Jesus. For those who remained in God and obeyed Him He protected, and those who did not obey Him perished, just look at the disobedient in Exodus versus the obedient. Also, Ruth who was a Gentile became a great prophet under God, so much so that what she wrote, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is prominently included in the Holy Tanakh! God is Unchanging and is Just and Faithful and True.
I do not boast against you but I do plead with you to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, for their is Salvation in no other, we are not saved just by virtue of our genes.
Stop defending Kabbalah, that is witchcraft which the Lord abhors!
Read Isaiah 53, if you cannot see that all of this chapter clearly speaks about the crucifixion, and the propitiation of Jesus Christ shedding His blood to pay for OUR transgressions then you are blind and should pray for the Lord God to reveal Himself and His Word to you through His Holy Spirit, the Person of the Holy Spirit.
Frank
I mistakenly wrote: 'I do not boast against you but I do plead with you to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, for their is Salvation in no other, we are not saved just by virtue of our genes.'
I should have written:
'I do not boast against you but I do plead with you to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved, for there is Salvation in no other than Him, we are not saved by 'virtue' of our genes.
Frank
What I've just written is clearly illustrated in Holy Scripture (If you search the Holy Tanakh you will also find the truth of the New Testament written there also (as much of the text below clearly indicates).
You see, I believe what God shows me is true Judaism, through the Holy Tanakh (Old Testament) and the New Testament. I do not believe Phariseeism is true Judaism, just as Jesus Christ the Messiah didn't, and I believe Him, for we should trust and believe God rather than man.
There is no point in exposing the New Age Movement if you are double minded because you support the practice of Kabbalah:
Romans 2
http://kingjbible.com/romans/2.htm )
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."
"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
"Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."
Frank: Romans 2 continued & more ...
Romans 2 continued & more ...
"For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. "
Matthew 15:22 - 28
"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
Frank: Continued...
Continued ...
Ephesians 2: 13 to 17
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh."
Romans 10:4 -13
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Frank: Continued ...
You see, I believe in the charge given to all Christians in 2 Timothy
2 Timothy 4: 1 to 8
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
I also believe that which is written in Titus 2:15 :
"These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
In 1 Timothy 4: 16, it is written:
"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."
And remember Proverbs 30 verse 4 which I cited earlier?:
Proverbs 30:4
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"
Well, in Proverbs 30 verses 5 to 6 we read:
"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar."
I suggest you read the whole chapter:
http://kingjbible.com/proverbs/30.htm
Hopefully, you will then pray in humble earnest honesty that which is written in Proverbs 30 verses 7, 8, & 9:
"Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."
Ephesians 5: 11 to 14
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."
Frank.
Steady on Frank! Who's blog is this?
Anon, 11:27 AM, I respect the fact that this is Constance's blog.
However, I am clogging nothing, neither am I diverting from the subject of her current topic.
In case you hadn't realised, today is October 17th, 2012 and I have been posting AT LENGTH on the pages of Constance's previous topic, "PLEASE WATCH THIS: REV. E. W. JACKSON!!!", posted September 25th, 2012, which is this page right here!
Constance has already posted a new topic: "Texas school punishes microchip tracking dissenters".
I am very grateful to Constance, as I initially posted about this as a comment on this previous topic's pages, although I failed to sign it:(about 4th post from bottom of 1st page: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=11772087&postID=2080129696587127873 ) 'Texas schools punish students who refuse to be tracked with microchips'
' http://rt.com/usa/news/texas-school-id-hernandez-033/ '
'12:29 PM'
Constance posted this new topic on Monday October 15th 2012 (although obviously my comment regards it was made earlier, here on the pages of the previous topic, which I point out only to show that sticking to topic is important yet doesn't exclude posting other important material).
So you see, much of what I've written here, has been on or after the 15th of October, 2012, on the previous topic's page. Therefore, I am not clogging the site so as to hijack the current topic. Also, the posts just now are continuations as I quite clearly have indicated, I had finished writing those particular comments, which we all needed in conjuction with one another to put my points into context, and then came your comment.
Moreover, you should realise that I shall obey God rather than man!
Pay attention:
Joshua 24:15
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Smiles,
Frank.
I correct this clause of the previous post: '...which we all needed in conjuction with one another to put my points into context...'
I should have written and meant to write, 'were' not 'we', so that the clause would read: '...which were all needed in conjuction with one another to put my points into context...'
Frank
God bless you Frank.
God bless you too Paul. Thank you for making me smile gently and for your courage in speaking out in truth.
In Christian love,
Rob.
Yes, that's who I am and have legally used the name Francis also, for which Frank is an abbreviation. So you do know me Dorothy, don't you!
By the way, I thought I'd just add that when God is about to make mankind, He refers to Himself in the plural:
Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
To Whom then does the Us refer to?I tell you God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. These Three are One and in total agreement eternally. Praise be to God in the Highest and peace to His people on Earth.
Rob
Yes, that's who I am and have legally used the name Francis also, for which Frank is an abbreviation. So you do know me Dorothy, don't you!
By the way, I thought I'd just add that when God is about to make mankind, He refers to Himself in the plural:
Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
To Whom then does the Us refer to? I tell you God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These Three are One and in total agreement eternally. Praise be to God in the Highest and peace to His people on Earth.
Rob
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