DR. STANLEY MONTEITH IS MY GUEST ON MY PERSPECTIVE INTERNET RADIO TODAY, FRIDAY, JULY 18, 2008. IT WILL BE THIS AFTERNOON - 5 P.M. EASTERN TIME, 2 P.M. PACIFIC TIME. WE WILL BE DISCUSSING HIS BOOK AND THE SUBJECT OF 'BROTHERHOOD OF DARKNESS." TUNE IN AND LISTEN LIVE AT WWW.THEMICROEFFECT.COMCONSTANCE
Most unusual earthquake activity today. Very strange that it comes on the wake of the "political earthquake" in the form of the updated Barcelona Process. This was also the case the day I first discovered Javier Solana and Company -- November 22, 1995. Only two days after Israel's Shimon Peres signed the first Treaty of Association and five days before the first Barcelona Conference was to begin, Israel, Jordan, and Egypt together with the entire North African plate were rocked by a 7.2 earthquake with 10,000 aftershocks. The press that day reported that the earthquake had come in the wake of a "political earthquake" in the form of the Barcelona Process set to conclude the Barcelona Treaty. Javier Solana would be exclusively in charge. The USA was denied participant status and was granted "observer status only." Only two days after the conclusion of that conference, on November 28, 1995, Javier Solana would be chosen as the new dark horse candidate surprise new leader of NATO. Are we seeing any parallels here? Stay tuned!
THOSE BIRTH PANGS ARE ROCKING!
Most unusual earthquake activity today. Very strange that it comes on the wake of the "political earthquake" in the form of the updated Barcelona Process. This was also the case the day I first discovered Javier Solana and Company -- November 22, 1995. Only two days after Israel's Shimon Peres signed the first Treaty of Association and five days before the first Barcelona Conference was to begin, Israel, Jordan, and Egypt together with the entire North African plate were rocked by a 7.2 earthquake with 10,000 aftershocks. The press that day reported that the earthquake had come in the wake of a "political earthquake" in the form of the Barcelona Process set to conclude the Barcelona Treaty. Javier Solana would be exclusively in charge. The USA was denied participant status and was granted "observer status only." Only two days after the conclusion of that conference, on November 28, 1995, Javier Solana would be chosen as the new dark horse candidate surprise new leader of NATO. Are we seeing any parallels here? Stay tuned!
THOSE BIRTH PANGS ARE ROCKING!
There have been many, many strong quakes in many places of the world recently. It is strange that they are getting relatively little press! Stay tuned!
159 comments:
I'm sorry to feed you so much in pictures, but the news is breaking and relatively unreported so much, we can hardly keep up except to show you. Please click on each picture to view as a whole page and then click when you are done to go on to the next.
Thanks!
Constance
The Holy Spirit seems to be working in "over drive" through you, Constance during these past two days. May God continue to guide and bless you.
GENERAL COMMENT
Wow this is very interesting. As the quakes seem to grow in frequency so too do the political events. Very good work Constance. Any ideas on Solana's global security solution(he says winking)
JD
Girl Scouts' journey to the New Age
Regarding the earthquakes - it's true that they seem to be on the increase. I've even read an article where some scientist attempted to link them to Climate Change! Delusion.
Earthquakes
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/
Total quakes More Severe
7/10 18 2
7/11 41 6
7/12 37 3
7/13 31 2
7/14 26 1
7/15 23 3
7/16 22 4
7/17 6 (incomplete information)
Maybe a re-evaluation of the information?
Tiny url for previous list
http://tinyurl.com/9odru
There was already an article about this meeting, but wanted to post the Al Jezeera version:
http://tiny.cc/QKFeP
another earthquake perhaps...
Tony Blair gives Rabbi David Rose a high profile:
http://tonyblairfaithfoundation.org/
....but there are lots of these organizations cropping up all over:
http://tiny.cc/Fw9nH
http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/cip/links.php
http://tiny.cc/6F3TR
http://www.coexistfoundation.net/trustees.htm
Look at the "patrons" for one of these organizations:
http://tiny.cc/at5bJ
This one is related to the World Economic Forum at Davos:
http://tiny.cc/Gbap7
Here's another one that plays on the similarities in the Hebrew and Arab languages and studies each others "holy books":
http://www.aauk.org/index.php
All of this fits into the AoC strategy, the Jerusalem Academy strategy, but unfortunately is preparing people for a false messiah. There are probably thousands more of these type of organizations.
The only reconciliation is what happens in Yeshua the Messiah, so these are counterfeits and undoubtedly all part of the preparation for the antimessiah.
Beware of Saudi Kings and Jordanian princes, or former Prime Ministers bearing gifts, who want everyone to get along.
The next step will be do some massive meditation together.
This one I'll send to Farmer:
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/csmeditation.html
Speaking of earthquakes, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/crystalskullexplorer
Joyce
This former minister wants to bridge the "christian and pagan world"......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00chsp9
Joyce
There are quakes and there are "shifts":
http://www.sacredearthfound.org/directors%20Message.pdf
Make sure you click around the site:
http://www.shiftingages.com/
Joyce
Joyce,
I noticed (on the last link you provided) there is a festival of the crystal skulls in Budapest.
The new Crystal Skull Festival is planned for October 4th and 5th, in Budapest in Hungary again, the 2nd International Festival to be held there. After the success of the first festival held in October of 2007, there is a new coordination team that has been setup and many more people who wish to support the new event.
Doesn't Farmer live in Hungary?
Joyce,
I noticed the name Joseph Campbell on one of the NA links you provided (Shiftingages had a link to a 2012 site). I've seen that name a lot recently, particularly with NA sites that focus on pagan or mythic characters. I'm sure Constance and Dorothy know a lot about him. I had never noticed his name before until a month ago. I saw his name in this article about Senator Obama's spirituality (someone linked to this article in one of the last threads):
http://tinyurl.com/65tm6e
So I began to research his work a little. I don't know how I had never heard of him before. It seems he has quite a cult following. I can also see why Senator Obama might be a bit confused spiritually.
Description of one of his videos at Amazon (read the reviews)
http://tinyurl.com/56yh6f
There are also all sorts of sites devoted to his works, including, of course, a non profit foundation:
http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php
And one enterprising Campbell "scholar" has written a book that has Senator Obama as a "hero" in the form of Campbell's work on mythic heroes.
http://www.amazon.com/Barack-Lance-Oprah-Rudy-Contemporary/dp/1427616124
This is probably old hat to most of you. I somehow missed it.
Deannie
World Conference on Dialoge started yesterday with about 250 religious/social leaders. ONE of the attendees - Jesse Jackson. Conference brings people of all faith together to "help to solve problems including terrorism, hunger, disease and poverty."
http://tiny.cc/6eAoN
Regarding crystal skulls
I'm reminded of Peter, Paul & Mary:
"If I had a ham-mer..."
paul
Anonymous,
I'm not sure.
Joyce
The full moon over Southeast Michigan was very reddish as I came home about 4 a.m. this morning. Eerie after all the activity I found on the internet last night.
Lucis Trust considers and classifies the Institute of Noetic Sciences as part of the New Group of World Servers. http://www.ngws.org/service/educ_adult.htm
Constance
Regards the "crystal skulls," this is AMAZING. I have had Joshua Shapiro's book since I started my original research on the New Age Movement in 1981. It was picked up on my second or third expedition to the Mayflower Bookstore. I was surprised to see that he had nice things to say about Virginia Mevis who had me come to Wisconsin and speak about the New Age Movement for her paper, THE WISCONSIN REPORTER. Evidently he had been acquainted with her since childhood. Coincidentally, I was speaking for a week in 1989 at Sedona, Arizona for the Sedona Evangelistic Association. On Saturday, towards the end of my trip, I was taken to the largest New Age bookstore, the Crystal Palace. Joshua Shapiro was in there hawking his new book, on THE CRYSTAL SKULL. I talked to him. He was very familiar with me and my work. Evidently he has never gotten it through his head that Jews are a primary target of New Age planners -- this pretty much puts him in the class of "self hating Jew" . . . too bad. So he has gotten this out worldwide. THIS IS SAD!
Constance
joseph campbell is/was good friends with George Lucas and gave him a lot of input for Star Wars and Indiana Jones on myths and heroes...as he tried to find a basic universal plot behind every fairly tale on earth...
farmer...and thanks Joyce for your input, hope to be back soon...
Very interesting about the Interfaith Conference chaired by King Abdullah with the active participation of King Juan Carlos. When I arrived home close to 4:30 a.m., CNN had scrolling news at the bottom of the screen about the event. I was still musing over the obviously red moon and when I saw that, it did nothing to get me to question the validity of my perceptions!
Constance
The Pope is now pushing "earth issues" ...
"Pope says `insatiable consumption' scarring planet"
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D91VPT6G0&show_article=1
Britain officially ratifies EU treaty:
http://tinyurl.com/5bt7hd
or
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1216288021.77
More on the interfaith conference involving King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and and King Juan Carlos of Spain.
Notice that this conference was held in Spain and NOT Saudi Arabia.
http://tinyurl.com/5wv8kz
http://tinyurl.com/6cnhcc
_____________________________
"The conference is organised by the Muslim World League following an initiative by King Abdullah.
Saudi officials said Spain was chosen as the site for the gathering because of its historical symbolism as a place where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in peace under Islamic rule between the 8th and 13th centuries.
Around 200 participants are expected, including representatives of the world's major religions: Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism.
Among them will be the secretary general of the World Jewish Congress Michael Schneider and Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, who is responsible for dialogue between the Vatican and Muslims.
After today's session with Abdullah and Juan Carlos, four closed-door round table discussions will be held before a final discussion on Friday (18.07.08).
http://tinyurl.com/6krqx3
________________________________
Thursday, July 17, 2008
Saudi King Hosts Interfaith Conference In Spain
"...A number of Jewish participants were among the 200 people invited to the Conference, including a prominent Irish-Israeli rabbi, David Rosen. More controversial was the conference invitation to Rabbi Yisrael Dovid Weiss, a representative of Neturei Karta from upstate New York. Neturei Karta believe that the creation of the modern state of Israel violates Jewish religious law. New York Jewish Week reports that conference organizers finally announced that Weiss-- who spoke at a Holocaust denial conference two years ago-- would not be one of the speakers. Objections to his appearance came not only from Jewish groups, but also from Dr. Sayyid Syeed, national director of the Islamic Society of North America. Instead the main Jewish speaker was to be New York Rabbi Arthur Schneier, founder of the interfaith Appeal of Conscience Foundation. The conference, the first of its kind initiated by the Saudis, was held outside Saudi Arabia because of conservative Wahhabi opposition to interfaith dialogue.....
http://tinyurl.com/6cdntv
_______________________________
APPEAL OF CONSCIENCE FOUNDATION
http://tinyurl.com/6yt6sc
_______________________________
ALLIANCE OF CIVILIZATIONS
"To fulfill the objective of the initiative, the UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan assembled a High-level Group (HLG) consisting of 20 eminent persons drawn from policy making, academia, civil society, religious leadership, and the media. A full range of religions and civilizations were represented.[1] Among the members were former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami, who proposed the Dialogue Among Civilizations initiative, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, South African Nobel laureate, Prof. Pan Guang, who obtained the Saint Petersburg-300 Medal for Contribution to China-Russia Relations, and Arthur Schneier, who is the founder and president of the “Appeal of Conscience Foundation” and who gained the "Presidential Citizens Medal”.....
http://tinyurl.com/68zhbm
Paul said...
"Regarding crystal skulls
I'm reminded of Peter, Paul & Mary:
"If I had a ham-mer..."
You're funny! :) As for myself,
All day as I've been checking all these great links from Deannie, Joyce, Susanna, Mac and Mary etc. I've had a little Elvis goin' in my head. "Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On. (Shiftin') I'm serious.
-Rudi
Joyce, VERY INTERESTING clicking around the Shifting Ages site. Thanks! Funny how much info is always hidden when you start to follow the trail under the "links". No end to the number of strange folks focusing on 2012/Mayan prophecies etc. I took a look at John Major Jenkins (who I've never heard of) and saw on his site his reference to an up-coming conference ("The Mystery of 2012 Predictions, Prophesies & Possibilities") he'll
be speaking at, put on by the Omega
Center for Spiritual Learning. This center is a new "updated" learning facility which will serve as the heart of The Omega Institute for Holistic Studies ongoing environmental initiatives. (Which I have heard a great deal about over the years) Two familiar names who will also speak in September at the 2012 conference are Corinne McLaughlin (Corinne McLaughlin/Gordon Davidson founders of The Center for Visionary Leadership- Constance has written about them often) and Peter Russell. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is on the faculty of the new center. Looks like the Omega Institute refers to anyone who is a frequent speaker/teacher for them as "faculty" An October 2008 conference has our friend (NOT!) Ervin Laszlo as one of it's speakers. Lots of interesting up-dates on the Omega Institute site.
-Rudi
http://www.eomega.org/
"When God spoke from Mount Sinai his voice shook the earth, but now he makes another promise: “Once again I will shake not only the earth but the heavens also. This means that all of creation will be shaken and removed, so that only unshakable things will remain." Hebrew 12: 26-27
To "Anonymous" (3:55 PM)
Regarding your statement: "The Pope is now pushing 'earth issues' ... Pope says `insatiable consumption' scarring planet."
OK, everybody, let's not get carried away and go off the deep end here.
Since "cleanliness is next to Godliness" . . . you don't necessarily HAVE to be a "New Ager" to be concerned with all of the WASTE and pollution that we consumers (all over the world) are ALL guilty of. We should ALL be concerned with all of the illegal DUMPING -- not to mention all of those plastic grocery bags, plastic cans/tops, and plastic water bottles floating in our rivers, lakes and oceans that are scaring and strangling the fish!!!
Let's all count to 10, take a deep breath, try to calm down now, and just get a grip!!!
Thank you.
I'm very much a subscriber to the fact that what is going on in the world is truly the end-time scenario that the Bible warned us about. Everything that is happening very fits the bill.
Everywhere I look people are calling for a change, a revolution.
More and more Christians everywhere are opening their eyes and becoming aware of what is happening-- there are a lot of spectators, and a lot of commentators.I just want to know:
who is leading the "back to God" revolution??
-nick
Everyone check out this article at World Net Daily:
http://tinyurl.com/57ygps
It appears Senator Obama is planning to create multiple "service corps" (a civilian national security force, increase in AmeriCorps and a new Energy Corps).
When you read it, keep these factors in mind:
1.) Constance's admonition that the New Age mirrors the Nazi movement.
2.) Susanna's links on New Age infiltration of our schools.
3.) A major push to encourage community service by our youth. Schools are really big on community service. (Look around and you'll see this is true: PSA announcements on the radio encouraging it, articles in the local papers playing up teens' service locally, I even saw Doritos chips highlighting teens with great service, and it is now a large factor in college entrance.)
4.) Susanna's link to the philosophy of Anontio Gramscii a while back:
http://tinyurl.com/3zh4ox
It is an important read, it details efforts to gain control of the culture by indoctrinating youth and separating society from its Judeo Christian roots.
So, when we tie it all together, we have a society ripped from its moorings, an entire generation indoctrinated with the New Age and primed to participate in community service projects, a past history in Nazi Germany of mobilizing its youth to serve an agenda, and a Presidential Candidate who is eager to take the reigns.
Now, how might this turn out badly one wonders.
Deannie
Deannie, I agree with you on Susanna's link, and I had sent it it to a friend with this intro.
Add to brotherly love knowledge. . . what knowledge?
Yes, the Scriptures, but also of nature and man and man in society. One very good reason is understanding that the key to health, spiritual, physical and mental, comes from God to you, then to your children and thus to your State and the world; "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done. . . The kingdom of God is within you."
Lots of important stuff coming from here. Thanks.
In a speech on Thursday to more than 200,000 pilgrims gathered in Sydney, Australia for "World Youth Day" (a 6 day festival), Pope Benedict XVI said:
"Some of you come from island nations whose very existence is threatened by rising water levels; others from nations suffering the effects of devastating drought."
"Perhaps, reluctantly, we come to acknowledge that there are also scars which mark the surface of our earth: erosion, deforestation, the squandering of the world's mineral and ocean resources in order to fuel an insatiable consumption," he said.
He also spoke about the types of "poison" afflicting the world's social environment - such as substance abuse, along with the exaltation of violence from television and the Internet.
"The concerns for nonviolence, sustainable development, justice and peace, and care for our environment are of vital importance for humanity," Benedict told the crowd.
I had a chance to check out the Omega Institute when I spoke in Massachusetts in the 1980s near the New York border. It is Sufi (mystical Moslem), but is a very important part of the "we are all one" New Age Movement. David Spangler and so many others have spoken there over the years. Interestingly, Javier Solana's mother, Nieves de Madariaga Solana Mathews (Nieves Mathews) was, per her Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh/Osho testimony, involved in Sufism her whole life.
Constance
Playing Devil's Advocate re Obama, isn't it just possible that his proposed action corps might also be a replay of FDR's CCC and WPA which was used to help extricate the country from the devastating effects of the Great Depression which we seem to be regoing right now? New England had as bad a hurricane as Katrina in 1938. It was the civilian participants in that program that helped the recovery.
Deannie,
Thanks for pointing out that connection. It wasn't "old hat" to me. We're in for quite a journey if Obama gets in. He went overseas with hundreds of advisors.
Rudi,
I need to do some more looking at the links. There was a lot there and I didn't have time to look yesterday. Today may not be any better, but I'm going to try.
Constance,
That is very interesting about Noetic Sciences, although none of us are surprised are we?
That is sad, that Joel Shapiro doesn't get it, but not surprising. I'm finding most of my Jewish childhood friends are into the New Age, and not only my Jewish friends but some of my Catholic friends. Makes me feel really privileged to know Yeshua. There but for the grace of God, go I... I can see how He protected me from this stuff. This year I am more aware than ever, how I have been plucked out of darkness and brought into His kingdom and I just want to give Him all the praise and thanks.. Our generation was deeply influence by the Beatles and the whole Vietnam war business.( a little hint about my age) I can see now, how there was a huge "shift" ( hate to use their word) that opened people to spiritual garbage. I can also see, it had nothing to do with my smarts...it was truly His protection.
There was another interesting item in today's paper about the Arab ownership of US banks. This isn't new news, but we should all but disturbing. As I have mentioned before, Prince AlWaleed bin Talal, member of the royal family has been busy, while the rest of his family is playing politics and pumping religious reconciliation, he's out there buying up assets:
http://tiny.cc/2zVVV
Besides talking about the environment, the pope like so many others, wants all the faiths to unite:
http://tiny.cc/J86eB
Bjorn,
Have a great trip. Looking forward to the sequel on H.E.B.
Relative to Constance's statement about Joel Shapiro being a "self-hater", I came across this verse in today's Torah portion about Phinehas:
“Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned away My wrath from the sons of Israel in that he was jealous with My jealousy among them, so that I did not destroy the sons of Israel in My jealousy. “Therefore say, ‘Behold, I give him My covenant of peace; and it shall be for him and his descendants after him, a covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God and made atonement for the sons of Israel.’” Numbers 25:11-13
Ancient Israel's idolatry is not really different from what we have going on today, and there aren't too many out there like Phinehas.
Shabbat shalom,
Joyce
Is anyone else having trouble opening the www.shiftingages.com site? Just curious. In the meantime, I found this one:
http://www.worldpuja.org/
Joyce
Maybe someone has posted this already, if not......
http://www.childrenofthenewearth.com/
horrible stuff.
Another Jew whose into the NA:
http://www.worldpuja.org/events.php#circle
Is it really science?
http://tiny.cc/JDYGA
...but this takes the cake:
http://www.maltadiscovery.org/
Joyce
OT - Regarding Revelations 11:3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth." Does anyone have any insight to this??? Is this after the 3 1/2 years? My thoughts are if the rapture is at the end then this would be a FOR sure sign that we are in the last days...Right?
REQUEST TO JOYCE RE JOE SHAPIRO
Joyce you wrote:
"That is sad, that Joel Shapiro doesn't get it, but not surprising. I'm finding most of my Jewish childhood friends are into the New Age,"
and
"Relative to Constance's statement about Joel Shapiro being a "self-hater"
I don't remember Constance writing that anyone is a self-hater. Could you show where she wrote this? Who is Joel Shapiro?
Since you mentioned him twice, you must feel he is important in some way.
Dorothy
Joshua Shapiro was in there hawking his new book, on THE CRYSTAL SKULL. I talked to him. He was very familiar with me and my work. Evidently he has never gotten it through his head that Jews are a primary target of New Age planners -- this pretty much puts him in the class of "self hating Jew" . . . too bad. So he has gotten this out worldwide. THIS IS SAD!
From Constance's 3:27 post
Anonymous 8:16,
Absolutely. It could be "all good".
For an alternative viewpoint on FDR check on this at the Von Mises Institute:
http://tinyurl.com/6l3xf5
Deannie
Speaking of earthquakes here is one of the political "earthquakes" that began shaking the Spanish monarchy in 2007.
I don't necessarily agree with everything posted on the "Tradition in Action" site, but the following articles posted there are interesting in so far as they collectively represent one of the more scathing assessments of the Spanish monarchy.
The closing paragraph in the first article is particularly spooky:
_______________________________
"It seems that today the Secret Forces are checking whether the Spanish people are ready to live without a king, and march on the same path as the other European republics, which, at different paces, are moving toward the One World Order: a necessarily socialist regime....."
http://tinyurl.com/5skrdl
http://tinyurl.com/66h2sn
_______________________________
Just this past June, the Spanish Parliament became something of an "animal rights pioneer" by extending special rights to apes akin to human rights.
_______________________________
"This is a historic day in the struggle for animal rights and in defense of our evolutionary comrades, which will doubtless go down in the history of humanity," said Pedro Pozas, Spanish director of the Great Apes Project...."
http://tinyurl.com/6q7g5w
______________________________
A related article "SPAIN MAKES A MONKEY OF NATURALISM" reads;
"The decision of the Spanish parliament is manifestly the triumph of sentimentality over reason. Although the leftist politicos who supported the ruling no doubt view themselves as enlightened citizens of a scientifically progressive Europe, their emoting and posturing has blinded them to the contradictions entailed by their position.
http://tinyurl.com/69d6ks
________________________________
I am reminded of the last book of C.S. Lewis' CHRONICLES OF NARNIA entitled THE LAST BATTLE.
In the story, the enlightened power hungry ape named Shift finds the skin of a dead lion and secretly proceeds to stitch it up into a lion suit with which to enable a donkey named "Puzzle" to impersonate Aslan, the "Great Lion" and true leader of Narnia - so as to fool the Narnians into thinking that Aslan has returned.
Of course, Shift has already persuaded Puzzle to go along with the scheme - promising him all the hay and other earthly comforts he could hope for in return for Puzzle's willingness to serve as Shift's front man and mouthpiece.......
So at the end of the day, who is reigning in Spain? King Juan Carlos?......Or the equivalent of an "enlightened" ape named Shift through his donkey named Puzzle?
Of course if the things being said about the so-called "Power Elite" are true, the same question could probably be asked concerning some of our Presidents.
Joyce said, "Besides talking about the environment, the pope like so many others, wants all the faiths to unite:
http://tiny.cc/J86eB"
For those who took Joyce's post at face value and didn't like to the article, the ACTUAL headline reads "Pope: All faiths should unite against violence."
Joyce, you are like the mistress in "Fatal Attraction." You lie low for awhile and then, as soon as Savvy and I disappear for awhile, here you are again, back with a vengeance, twisting words in order to spread more lies and disinformation about the Catholic Church to the readers of this blog.
Your behavior is calculated and deliberate.
Elfie
Nick, you asked, "Who is leading the "back to God" revolution??"
Not sure any one individual is "leading" it.
Josef Ratzinger (Pope Benedict), however, has been calling for it for years now in his brilliant scholarly writings. Now, he is continuing in that vein in front of millions (televised) at World Youth Day.
Here is a transcript of his address (for those who would prefer to read for themselves what the man actually said, rather than rely on the "interpretations" of certain notorious anti-Catholic posters at this site).
http://www.ewtn.com/wyd2008/Words/2007message.htm
Elfie
RE JOEL SHAPIRO
Thanks for the feedback Anonymous. I missed her comment or I just passed over it. Can't remember which. I can understand Constance making a mistake in describing Shapiro as a self-hating Jew in that he rejected her information about the New Age movement. However, using it that way would encourage any Christian involved in any aspect of the New Age movement to be called a self-hating Christian. Bad idea.
The term "self-hating Jew" has a very specific meaning which I would expect Joyce to know. "Self-hating Jew (or self-loathing Jew) is an epithet used to describe Jews, which suggests a hatred of one's Jewish identity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew
There is a difference between hating one's Jewish identity and considering the religion of Judaism as irrelevant. Almost all people involved in the NA movement see monotheism as irrelevant. NA organizations do not hold academic debates on the validity of Judaism and Christianity vs New Age beliefs because they see monotheism as irrelevant and the followers of these religions as simplistic. A second group of NAgers tries to blend ideas from both groups to make NA ideas acceptable. Only when one studies the roots of the NA movement does one see the hatred of Judaism and Christianity in the third group. This is what makes NA dangerous.
In the last 26 years I've visited many New Age bookstores, mostly in the Chicago area but also around the country. These bookstores do not openly stock obvious antisemitic or anti-Christian material. In fact there will be small sections on Judaism and Christianity in the larger bookstores. Telling NAgers that NA is anti-Christian or antisemitic is difficult under those circumstances because their eyes tell them differently. There will be no objective academic books on the history of the NA movement though there may be some on the history of paganism and occult groups. There is no history of Lucis Trust for instance. Almost all NAgers do not realize the movement has roots or where the current manifestation started. For them NA is just a new way of viewing life which they found on their own because of their intellectual superiority.
Shapiro rejected Constance's information. Other than his name I've found no signs of his Jewish connections. Here's where there is a dilemma. What is the middle ground between interfaith type meetings and situations where Jews and Christians think they have nothing to learn from each other where religion is concerned? If Shapiro is Jewish, it is probable that he thought he had nothing to learn from a Christian fundamentalist so he felt why bother to check her information out. With both Christians and Jews, everyone wants to teach and very few want to learn.
Dorothy
In my susrfing today, I read a bit about the Oxford Manifesto of 1947, of which Salvadore de Madariaga was one of the principle authors. In 1997 there was a new Oxford Manifesto, called the "Liberal Agenda for the 21st Century". The manifestos call for an international, global organization, probably with the UN in mind, and in the 1997 manifesto one of the problems of the world is "fundamentalism". I guess the know-betters have been complaining about that for a long time. I didn't see any link to Dr. JS, except for SdeM helping to author the 1947 version.
Elfie,
No, it's not calculated.....It's just what I think. The Pope is meeting with the Muslims, and the Jews and everyone else. I have the same problem with what Rick Warren is doing by the way....He's doing it under the guise of making his global P.E.A.C.E. plan. I am against all such ecumenic efforts as I believe this is ultimately the religion of antimessiah, that we become one. I do believe in a kind of oneness, but my version of that would be under Messiah Yeshua and His Word.......so before you go assigning bad motives to me, did it ever occur to you that's just what I believe. You don't have to agree with me....but lots of people happen to be trying to get together at the moment, including the Saudis...so I just find it strange.
I think the 9/11 and Iraq war business created the excuse to make an "alliance of civilizations" out of the "clash on civilizations".
Dorothy,
I call a self-hating Jew, one that doesn't recognize the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Torah... After centuries of being scattered for their disobedience and mixing with the pagan religions of the nations, if they are still doing that in the 21st century I would say they do not accept their identity as a part of Israel......
Some others might define the expression otherwise. There are Jews that simply hide or change their identity and that would fall into the "self-hating" Jew too, even though I understand after centuries of persecution why they might do that.
Jews that are deeply into New Age are self-hating in my opinion. They do not accept their identity as the "called out assembly" from Mt. Sinai.
Have a nice Shabbat,
Joyce
Willeisnthger.com offers a book called "The Plot", a graphic novel (ahem, otherwise known as a comicbook) version of the history of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion book. I only saw the preview, but it looks good. As most of you know, Eisner did the popular Spirit comic that was so long ago it was even before my time. According to the website, Will Eisner did the book because of the returning popularity of the Protocols, being alluded to by the internet anti-Semites.
Elfie-
It would be helpful if rather than responding to a comment you disagree with,with sarcasm,
You could instead, address in an intelligent way, as Sussana has, the topic at hand.
Many of us are very concerned, doctrinal issues aside, of the influence the Alliance of Civilizations and the religious aspect of the move to global governance is gradually wrapping its tentacles
around monotheism in general, and for some of us, the body of believers (in the message of the gospel), as a whole. In the end, the “spiritual area” and it’s place as the foundational support
under the New Age Movement, will be the area (in my view) where the rubber meets the road.
What I would very much appreciate, whether from yourself or another Catholic believer is
commentary on this point in particular:
At what point does participation in helping to achieve the Millennium Development Goals,
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and joining hands with the Interfaith Establishment
by the highest level members of one’s respective faith, cause the issue to become duly noted,
and addressed? Doctrine and its source are very important. I’m not raising this issue over doctrinal differences. Whether an “invitee” to the most recent interfaith conference resulted in that person becoming an “attendee” I have no way at this point of knowing.
It is no less disturbing to note that, along with “invitees” listed including Jessi Jackson, Karen Armstrong, Rabbis’, Bishops’ and Imans - also on the list was Franklin Graham.
It isn’t pleasant to read the information Constance presents regarding Paul Temple,
The Fellowship Foundation, the Gold Lake Conference, the “emergent church” and many other obvious areas of New Age/Emergent blending of pagan belief systems with “Christian” or Jewish organizations. It is very disturbing as each piece of new information comes to light. I am not attacking your faith or
any individual. I have read Pope Benedict’s January 1, 2008
World Day of Peace Speech and I am very concerned. Maybe you
and I have a different opinion on what the UN and the implementation of the MDG’s and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights mean for all of us. Time will tell what if any
consequences there will be when it comes to the involvement of the spiritual leadership of the Catholic church in these affairs.
I’m not judging anything- just making an observation. What will
be will be. Paying attention, and reporting events won’t cause them to mean anything other than what the facts if true reveal.
If a reported UN, or AOC event and participants are not true as presented by the news media, I want to know. Rudi
If any have not had the chance to read the Gold Lake Retreat article by Constance:
http://www.watch.pair.com/goldlake.html
Also, please Susanna or Elfie if someone would address this:
Pope Benedict January 1, 2008 World Day of Peace message
http://tinyurl.com/25mmtt
Anyone know why the "chat-room" is closed??
RADIO & CHAT
the chat room is finally up at
4:52pm CT
Micro Effect chatroom was "CLOSED" today but the show was excellent!!!
I listened to the radio program and it was excellent. As a new listener/blogger/reader of this site it was also fairly easy to follow.
But, are there any practicle ways to prepare for what is ahead financially...or anything? What is anyone doing out there? We have a lot of stock in the company that my husband works for(HP) it was supposed to be our retirement! What would you all do? I haven't educated my husband enough yet...he still has his head in the sand.
Also please pray for me...I have been very outspoken about all this and have had almost unbearable slander and hatred poured my way including someone actually threatening my life! But, God has been faithful and has done miraculous things but, how much can one take....I have prayed and fasted for 6 days non stop and I did have a 'breakthough' in the spiritual realm that I believed saved my family from much danger. Anyway, I would appreciate prayer! I pray for Constance all the time...what she must endure ....yikes.
MLB
Rudi,
Thanks, you articulated that better than I.....
Dorothy,
One more thing on the self-hating business. I realize that for some being a Jew is merely an identity i.e. they can say they are a Jew and dabble in the New Age, Yoga, TM, tarot cards, freemasonry,or whatever.
In the Bible, when the House of Israel/Ephraim/Northern Kingdom ceased to follow the God of Israel and worship as and where He prescribed, they were cutoff and became "not a people". See Hosea for the detailed explanation. They became just like "the nations" who at that time did not know God and were without hope as such. Okay, that was Israel, not the Jews, but the Jews or Judah do the same thing. Sometimes, like it's just easier to assimilate, but since it is a privilege to be counted among the sons of Israel, I think anyone who either hides their identity, disrespects the instructions that God gave us to be a "light to the nations" i.e. lead them towards Him is sadly lost.
Having said that, I do not believe my Jewish identity saves me. My long-promised Jewish Messiah did when He hung on a tree and paid for my sins, of which I had many..according to the Torah definition of sin. He bore our shame and justified many. The Bible says, all have fallen short of the glory of God...and anyone who says they have no sin is a liar.
Unlike some who convert to Catholicism, I, like Yeshua's earlier followers, Shimon Kefa, Rav Sha'ul, Yacov,His brother, etc, will remain a Jew and follow Him..The confusion comes when we say that those men were something other than Jews. Some of the last known words of Paul before he was beheaded by the Romans, were as follows:
Acts 28:17 ¶ After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Paul did nothing against the traditions of his fathers...so it's hard to believe that he invented a "new religion" and he was not a self-hater. He loved his countrymen and wanted them all to know Yeshua. He said in the present tense that he was a pharisee of pharisees, from the tribe of Benjamin. He just considered knowing Yeshua much greater than his tribal affiliation or his identity as a Jew, and as one who knows Yeshua I can agree with Sha'ul/Paul. When talking about what advantage it was to be a Jew, let's listen to his own words:
Rom. 9:1-5 I am telling the truth in Messiah, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Messiah for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Torah and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Messiah according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen
There is a great example of someone who knew Yeshua and did not hate his Jewishness...i.e. the opposite of a self-hater.
Joyce
JOYCE RE SELF-HATING JEW DEFINITION
""When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that's all."
Humpty Dumpty, the US Supreme Court and people that make up their own religion....they have chosen which they think is to be master.
On the other hand, I think civilized people agree on definitions of words which they use to communicate with each other.
Dorothy
REPLY TO JOYCE REGARDING HER RELIGION
(Deleted)
Dorothy
Enjoyed the radio show today, Constance.
COMMENT TO RUDI REGARDING DISCUSSION HERE
You wrote to Elfie:
"It would be helpful if rather than responding to a comment you disagree with,with sarcasm,
You could instead, address in an intelligent way, as Sussana has, the topic at hand."
Why? Is there a rule here that says if someone hijacks the thread we must follow like little sheep and discuss whatever with the hijacker?
If someone is gifted with the ability to rattle on and on, and that's what it is, why must others reply point by point to the noise?
If you want to have exchange long diatribes with others of like talent here, no one is stopping you. It's pretty clear now that's what will be allowed to go on.
Some of us are offended and/or bored when the topic is offensive. We'll say so. Some feel completed by the diatribes of others. They can give pats on the back. I guess we will all just stay.
Dorothy
Hey, Anonymous 5:46 --
You aren't doubling us back to the New Age now, are you? Please elaborate. So many New Agers talk about "God within," Just wondered where you are coming from?
MLB, I have added my prayers, to others here, for you and yours!
Though the ship be tossed to and fro, God neither slumbers nor sleeps.
Hi Rudi,
I hope I have understood your question correctly. If not, let me know.
Regarding the document
THE HUMAN FAMILY, A COMMUNITY OF PEACE
the Pope is not in any way advocating religious syncretism. He has roundly rejected syncretism on more than one occasion.
In this document, the Pope is speaking in terms of the NATURAL LAW that applies to all human beings regardless of their religious beliefs.
In terms of the natural law and natural philosophy, it is a SELF-EVIDENT TRUTH that the family is prior to the state, not the other way around. No family, no state.
I quote from the document:
_____________________________
"The rights set forth in the Charter are an expression and explicitation of the natural law written on the heart of the human being and made known to him by reason. The denial or even the restriction of the rights of the family, by obscuring the truth about man, threatens the very foundations of peace."
http://tinyurl.com/25mmtt
______________________________
As for the Pope's statement on the environment, he is simply talking about the good stewardship required of every human being with regard to the use of God's earthly gifts. He is not talking about the New Age pagan species of "environmentalism" that involves Gaia worship and demands that the well-being of "mother earth" should trump the needs of earth's human inhabitants.
With regard to ecumenism, the ecumenism espoused by the Pope is one in which people of various religious beliefs are encouraged to work together peacefully for the sake of those beliefs that they DO agree on while honestly acknowledging their differences, respecting each other's religious choices and giving each other the benefit of the doubt with regard to honesty and sincerity.
Since I have in-laws of various religious persuasions, I live this kind of ecumenism every day in my own family.
Again, no syncretism or false ecumenism is being peddled by the Pope. If it were, things like intercommunion would be allowed, but they are not.
With regard to the New Age Movement infiltrating the Catholic Church, you bet it has. It has also infiltrated every other Christian denomination as well as the Jewish faith and the gnosticised version of Islam known as Sufism.
Authentic Catholic teaching is that Jesus Christ is truly God AND truly man. As a Catholic, I have been taught that salvation is ONLY in Christ whether acknowledged by men or not. The fundamental Christological and Trinitarian teaching of the Catholic Church is embodied in the Nicene Creed:
http://tinyurl.com/2tzh3y
http://tinyurl.com/669p3y
Correct me if I am mistaken but perhaps with the exception of the statement on the "one holy catholic and apostolic church," we are pretty much in agreement.
If a person calling himself a "Roman Catholic" says he believes things that go contrary to the Nicene Creed - especially with reagard to the Person of Jesus Christ - he may be a "Catholic" but it is a "Catholicism" of his own devising.....the false kind of "Catholicism" that just might be embraced by an antichrist.
The Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica ("Gnostic Catholic Church") is just one example of such a bogus "Catholicism" that "severs Christ."
http://tinyurl.com/ytr5fg
Unfortunately, too few people have ever heard of it.
I hope that you have found this helpful.
Dear Constance: I just found your blog by searching: Earthquakes in different places--being only the first pangs as in many bibles, but basically the same words. Mark 6:3
Does this mean that people who have NOT followed the word of God will finally GET IT?
Reported only a few minutes ago on msn that an earthquake has hit Japan with a tsunami warning. I believe just yesterday, an earthquake hit Greece with one fatality! Then, before all this, China's devastating quake! God is giving us his warning, it has already been written, and nobody has listened!
The Pope doesn't say to unite the religions, he advocates praying and the first thing we do when praying is IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST in which, dare I say, that some Muslims only think that Jesus was only a man, a prophet, not the son of God!
Wake up World!
Thank you, Constance, I will continue to watch your blog...and post if you approve. Sincerely, Kathleen
Sorry, Constance, in my last post where I quoted the last verse, it was wrong. I know the scripture of the first pangs being that nation will rise against nation, and there will be famine and earthquakes in different places!
Can you quote that scripture?
Many thanks and bless you for your work with something other than politics...Kathleen
Anon 9:08
Bless you for your prayers 1000 fold. God is merciful.
"Belive also that the Lord Jesus Christ is the incarntion of mercy. His very existence is mercy to you. His every word means mercy. His life, His death, His intercession in heaven, all mean mercy, mercy, mercy, nothing but mercy...He is the Savior for you."
Charles spurgeon
Spurgeon on Prayer and Spiritual Warfare
God be with you ~MLB
http://tinyurl.com/5muswt
Senator Obama wants Europe to take a larger roll in world security (from UK Telegraph).
Deannie
http://tinyurl.com/6oeyra
WSJ Editorial about Pat Brown's war on suburban life.
Then read up on Agenda 21 or watch one of many youtube videos on it.
Deannie
http://tinyurl.com/55xyng
New EPA standards are out regarding global warming. Check out this editorial from the WSJ.
Read this and think back to Senator Obama's "energy corps".
Deannie
Thanks Susanna-
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. As with your previous comments, you have helped me to have a clearer understanding of what you believe and the reasons for your beliefs.
I have very strong convictions when it comes to compromising the message of the cross and the failure to challenge false religions with the truth of the gospel for the sake of peace. I was very thankful to hear Pope Benedict share the gospel during his message for World Youth Day. Participation in interfaith gatherings - Buddist,Hindu,Sufi, Muslim, Jews and Christians, whatever, where all faiths are recognized as acceptable, and equally valid amongst the participants, will in all likelihood result in apostasy at its worst. The ultimate purpose for these interfaith dialoges is to promote peace. The cost is compromise. The Truth of the gospel is our testimony. I'll take the liberty of quoting Constance again - she says it better than anyone:
"One is, it appears, allowed to have a religion in the “New World Order,” a/k/a “Alliance of Civilizations,” a/k/a “global governance.” One is not, however, allowed to believe it true. Nor is one allowed to tell others it is true. If somebody believes that “Maitreya is the Christ,” Rev. Moon is “the Lord of the Second Advent,” or Sai Baba is God, they may tell you their religion is true. That is called “dialogue.” If a Christian dares to suggest Jesus is the only way, that is called “proselytizing.” We are looking at what anti-Christian writer, Theosophist Gina Cerminara during her lifetime cheerfully admitted in her books was a “war of general semantics.”
Constance Cumbey
December 19, 2006
NewsWithViews.com
http://tinyurl.com/69o4jk
http://www.newswithviews.com
/Cumbey/constance.htm
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Timothy 2:5
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12
Apparently many German businessmen are tiring of the carbon trading nonsense and threatening to move to Ukraine. And this is before the new EU regulations take effect.
Der Speigel article:
http://tinyurl.com/57aqao
Deannie
MLB, thanks for the mercy reminders. “Blessed are the merciful. . . “
Rudi, Constance’s quote says it all, and the verses you mentioned are pure like silver.
Only Christians need not apply! Nibbling around the edges of the Christian culture, California and its enmity with Christ Jesus, keep trying to reduce one segment of society as inferior; all others are Okay; for NOW!
I once heard someone say that academia attempts to disprove only Christianity. Whether that is true or not I don’t know, but my experience agrees. It appears that “they” feel threatened by only the One.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69997
If the hypocrisy in our Governments isn’t obvious, and the UC is part of that system, continue down WND or paste this site.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69914
Dorothy,
Looks like my definition of "self-hating Jew" is pretty close to what others think..There is also some controversy about the term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew#Usage
Hope you are having a nice Shabbat,
Joyce
"No, it's not calculated.....It's just what I think," wrote Joyce.
Joyce,
What you did was deliberately distort the content of the story on the Pope Benedict when you reported it, and I pointed this out.
What you did is called "spin." What I did is called "counteracting spin" or setting the record straight, using the facts.
Dorothy , thanks. And an excellent analysis regarding "Self hating Jew" in the context of the relationship of NA to Judiasm and Christianity.
Elfie
With all the other conversations going on on the blog, this one might have been overlooked. Take a careful look at this site. The philosophy seems to be the same as Hitler's. The men involved happen to be German, which is an interesting coincidence:
http://tiny.cc/seHKm
I'd like to hear what you think of it Constance, when you have some time to take a careful look. There is a part in German.
Joyce
Just to put that last post in context, this woman interviewed Zeitlmair on her radio show:
http://www.jonettecrowley.com/
I was wondering if she was related to Aleister Crowley, but the name could just be a coincidence. She makes no secret of her occult associations with the Great White Brotherhood.
Joyce
I'm sorry it's not her that is a member of the White Brotherhood, but one of her demons...."Mark".
Joyce
One of the gatherings she's involved with:
http://www.lightflow.info/gathering/gathering.htm
Joyce
Another "worker" at the same conference:
http://www.lightflow.info/eng/index.php?page=listeningroom
http://tiny.cc/oLj88
Careful if you listen. It's demonic stufff.
Joyce
One quote from the site:
Andrea Mayrhofer
Organizer in Germany
She is a dedicated world server who loves to make your visit to our seminars as comfortable as possible. Contact her for information about Lightflow seminars given by Cecilia Sifontes in Germany.
Speaking of World servers.....
Joyce
To Rudi (regarding your 3:19 AM response to Susanna) . . .
Please clarify exactly what you mean by "false religions . . . for the sake of peace."
Because what is coming across (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you feel that you are being pressured to be "politically correct" and "just get along" with those "false religion Catholics" (?) for the sake of peace.
In the first place, how would it ever be possible for Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ Himself (who created His one, holy and apostolic Catholic Church before He was crucified and died for the sins of ALL mankind) to EVER create a "false" religion??? Since Jesus Christ is God, He does not make "mistakes."
I certainly HOPE and pray that I have misunderstood your meaning here. If I have, I sincerely apologize ahead of time.
Please also clarify what you mean by this statement: "The ultimate purpose for these interfaith dialogues is to promote peace. The cost is compromise."
Surely, every Bible reading Christian KNOWS that (besides dealing with our spiritual enemies, the NWO and NAM), it is written that Jesus also desires for us all to END up as "one flock and one shepherd" some day. How can we hope to achieve this goal unless we ALL open up our hearts and work TOWARD that goal???
Look at this fellows resume:
http://spiritlibrary.com/geoffrey-hoppe
Joyce
More very dark stuff:
http://www.crimsoncircle.com/
Joyce
Constance,
This fellow is teaching "death transition" and he has classes all over the world if you scroll down:
http://tiny.cc/NLyNb
This is the fellow who worked for NASA and he and the others are all directly or indirectly connected to the link on Malta, in case that is not apparent.
Joyce
I got this off the Crimson Circle site....It's pure evil:
http://www.heartwaysinc.com/
Joyce
More of this guy:
http://www.tobias-ses.com/
It seems like it's tied into kundalini yoga, but that's just a guess.
Joyce
He was in Sedona in July, so maybe you saw him Constance. Here's an awful video. I recommend praying for spiritual protection before listening to this garbage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8bZGLSbFaI
Kind of hard to understand how people buy into this..
Joyce
Hi Rudi,
You are right. There is always a risk of compromise when there are ecumenical gatherings - even where "ecumenical" is not intended to be synonymous with "syncretism" and/or "indifferentism."
During interfaith gatherings - Buddist,Hindu,Sufi, Muslim, Jews and Christians - where all faiths are recognized as being "equal" - equality should mean "equal" in the sense that all religions are "equal" under our constitution - "equal" before the law and/or in "natural law" terms of human and civil rights.
For me, as well as for official Catholicism, this does not mean that all religions are of "equal" validity in terms of the "truth" they teach or in the sight of God. I am sure you do not regard all religions as "equal" in this latter sense either....nor should you if you sincerely believe that your religion is true.
On the other hand, I have never been taught as a Catholic that any non-Roman Catholic is necessarily going to Hell in a hand basket if, through no fault of his own, he does not explicitly profess the Roman Catholic faith.
Now what do we mean by "through no fault of his own?" For example, if a person were born into another religion and professing the "faith of his fathers," then it is certainly NOT his fault that he is not a Roman Catholic.
Actually, such a person is obeying the Commandment to honor his father and his mother. This holds true for Jews, Moslems, etc.
In fact, non-Catholic Christians who were non-Catholic Christians by birth are not regarded as formal "heretics" by the Roman Catholic Church. They are called "material schismatics."
A "heretic" in the strict sense of the term is defined as a person who, after being born a Roman Catholic or freely embracing Roman Catholicism, falls away from the Roman Catholic faith.
In other words, a person born into a Protestant denomination could believe in things the Roman Catholic Church defines as "heretical" without necessarily being a formal "heretic."
Moreover, I can be respectful of the fact that from where you are sitting, this cuts both ways. A person born into the Protestant faith who defects to the Roman Catholic camp is likely regarded as a "formal heretic" from the Protestant point of view while a cradle Catholic may not be.
In the last analysis, heresy is derived from a word meaning "choice."
Catholics who are often referred to as "cafeteria Catholics" are those who have knowingly fallen ito the habit of "picking and choosing" those Catholic beliefs that happen to appeal to them and rejecting those that do not.
I wouldn't doubt that there is such a thing as "cafeteria Protestants" either.
The reason why Simon Magus is called the "father of all heretics" is because he formally apostatized from the Christian faith AFTER freely choosing to receive baptism. His story is in the Acts of the Apostles.
Regarding your quote from Scriptures:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Timothy 2:5
I couldn't agree with you more.
One more thing. Constance once pointed out that while it might give Christians a little heartburn to acknowledge this, there is such a thing as an "honest pagan." This is a person who, through no fault of his own, has never heard the Gospels but is sincerely doing the best he can with what little knowledge he does have.
Nevertheless, the Catholic Church(i.e Church Fathers, etc.) has always regarded the pagan deities as demons.
However, in his book EVIDENCE OF SATAN IN THE MODERN WORLD, Monsignor Leon Cristiani makes a distinction between "satanism as religion" and "satanism as magic."
Honest pagans ignorantly but sincerely practiced "satanism as religion" - even though they were sincerely wrong.
While honest pagans were mistaken in the "god" they worshipped, they were NOT mistaken in the idea that worship should be directed somewhere.
A perfect example of the difference between "satanism as religion" and "satanism as magic" - and the difference it made in history - is to be found in G.K. Chesterton's book EVERLASTING MAN in the chapter entitled THE WAR OF THE GODS AND THE DEMONS.
It describes two competing pagan world views in the days of the Punic Wars between what were then the two world "superpowers" - Rome and Carthage.
Here it is if you would like to check it out.
http://tinyurl.com/67hsg8
God bless and have a great weekend.
Anoymous 9:00,
I'm not sure either what Rudi is getting at either. She states she is concerned about doctrine. Because of that unique institution called "The Magesterium," there is no religion on earth with doctrine as solid or as "protected" as the Roman Catholic Church.
1. If Pope Benedict sits down at a dinner table and one of the guests is Christopher Hitchens, that does not mean the Catholic Church is teaching atheism.
2. If Pope Benedict stands on a podium with Desmond Tutu, that does not mean he believes, or that the Catholic Church is now teaching, that Angelicanism is the true church.
3. If Pope Benedict shakes hands with Billy Graham, that does not mean the Catholic Church has now abandoned the Magesterium in favor of "Sola Scriptura."
4. If Pope Benedict shakes hands with George Bush, this does not mean he, or the Roman Catholic Church now "approve" of the Iraq war and/or torture in the name of "security"/"the fight against global terrorism"
5. If Pope Benedict gives a blessing to Tony Blair, this does not mean he looks approvingly at the Blairs distinctly garish '(and deeply un-Christian) brand of materialism.
5. If Pope Benedict eats dinner with Barak and Michelle Obama, it does not mean the Catholic Church now teaches that "abortion is okay."
6. If Pope Benedict spends several hours in the day petting cats in the garden, this does not mean he believes in pantheism.
Yes, Pope Benedict talks about war and peace. Like his predecessor, he is deeply concerned with the world around him.
I will leave now with a quote from John Grasmeier, traditional Catholic blogger and veteran of "Desert Storm."
"All wars are a culmination of our collective sins. They're the result of an infection of human evils that comes to a head and proves how savage we can be to each other. Satan loves each and every one of them and they should never, ever be fought unless every imaginable alternative has been exhausted"
Elfie
BRAVO, Elfie . . . that was a brilliant response. This should help us ALL gain a much clearer perspective.
Thank you.
--"Anonymous" (from 9:00 AM)
Rudi,
You directed some specific questions at me earlier -- apologies for ignoring you. It was not an intentional snub. I should have added to my previous post, "Susanna and Anonymous seem to have that ground pretty well covered, far better than I could have."
Thanks, Susanna & Anonymous.
Elfie
P.S.
Rudi,
I read Constancs's article on the Alliance of Civilizations: War on Monotheistic Religions - especially the paragraph where, referring to THE GREAT INVOCATION, she asks rhetorically:
"I wonder further how much publicity they will give to page 548 of its co-founder, Alice Ann Bailey’s quoting her “Djwhal Khul” master suggesting that the atomic bomb could be used to keep powerful religious groups such as the Church of Rome should they not leave politics alone. I suspect none!"
http://tinyurl.com/5nk3uy
I am only too well aware that at the Alliance of Civilazionts - style gatherings, only apostate Catholics will be welcome.
I have noticed that even here in the U.S. whenever the "driveby media" is looking for an member of the Roman Catholic clergy to serve as "spokesperson" for the Roman Catholic Church, they usually call upon the more notorious dissenters to do the talking - like Father Richard McBrien and priests of his ilk.
No wonder so many non-Catholic Christians have such a distorted view of what Roman Catholics really believe!
McBrien's book CATHOLICISM was censured by our own United States Catholic Bishops Committee on Doctrine in 1996.
Hi Susanna,
You said only apostate Catholics will be welcome. You clearly have priests who are considered to teach something other than orthodoxy (you cited Father McBrien). Are there Cardinals who also embrace a faith other than orthodox Catholicism? I'm curious how pervasive and high such apostasy is in Catholicism? And do you think such apostates are vulnerable to the New Age?
In the nonCatholic Christian world, straying from the clear Biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ seems to be the third step in whole congregations becoming ripe for New Age delusions. The first two steps are: 1.) ceasing to study the Bible systematically 2.) waffling on "nonessential" doctrines because they unpleasant to present to nonbelievers. (John 6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples murmured about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?")
Eventually, the waffling grows to the essentials and Gospel is diluted or changed (step 3). When the Word is not studied and the Gospel is not proclaimed faithfully, all manner of deception is creeping in.
To what extent do you see this in Catholicism?
Deannie
ELFIE AND CATHOLICISM- MY OPINION
That was a wonderful as well as entertaining answer Elfie.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
From my experience, when a person is new to the undercurrents in the world, it is very easy to become overwhelmed and start finding bogeymen in every unreported or underreported activity. Every letterhead is given equal weight with that of long term change agents. Every spokesperson's words are screened for hidden meanings. Every gathering is assumed to have a major influence on what is happening in the world. Twenty six years ago I remember waking up in the middle of the night and pounding on my husband's chest because I was so overwhelmed with the idea of how little I knew about what the real world was about. My husband didn' like it.
Time has gone by. The world hasn't ended. I've learned not to chase every bit of new information with the same intensity. That is the way of cult groupies who wait for the new information coming from their leader.
I would suggest every person looking at the New Age movement go to the library and look at the Encyclopedia of Associations. All of these associations have meetings, seminars, leaders, goals. Our goal should to find the NA networks, interpret their goals, the note the level of their power. If we just cherry pick, finding new names and websites, reading into every statement some sign of the apocalypse, we will waste all of our energy. There will be no difference between us and the LaRouches.
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
Dorothy
QUESTION FOR DEANNIE
Using whatever guidelines by which you are asking Susanna to judge the Catholic church, why don't you tell us which Protestant denominations have succombed to the New Age agenda. I know that's a big job, but you probably are more familiar with the Protestant community. I'm not asking about individuals such as Rick Warren, but about organizations.
Your generalization about teachings is very nice, but as we know, the NA movement operates on the basis of networking, and it's the organizations that network.
Dorothy
Dorothy,
This will take a bit of work. I think of it as a continuum (steps if you like). Some denominations seem to be further along the continuum or progressed from step 2 to step 3. How long they hang out at any one place along the continuum varies. From casual observance it seems the time between steps on this continuum are speeding up, probably because of advanced communication and networking capabilities.
It would an interesting project for many of us nonCatholic Christians. I have belonged to Baptist, Bible Community, and EV Free churches - but have family and friends in other denominations. I would be interested to hear from Joyce, DouginM, Setterman, Rudi, Leanna, Paul, OldManoftheski, etc. I don't know their denominations, they could probably speak to many denominations from experience.
Deannie
Am I understanding this to be correct? That being that I believe in God, our Father, who has created this earth, and does NOT want it destroyed by Man, that I am a heretic because I am a fallen away Catholic and do not go to any Protestant Church or synagogue?
God knows every hair on every head, every star in the universe, what you are thinking before you SAY it, or write it. Remember, Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light and it is MAN who is trying to destroy this world! That I am a "heretic" because I was born a Catholic, but prefer to pray to HIM through his Son, Jesus Christ?
There is NO one true religion! I remember as a child when the priest would say at the end of the Mass, in Latin, that there will be wars and threats of wars. And, I have been afraid ever since! I had many, many dreams of the end of the world as we know it! I've been afaid, even as a child, while getting under my desk in school when we had the sound of the air raid sirens...yes, in America!
The Pope was brave and strong in bringing out the fact, to the youth and the world, in general, that we are in a time when all people in the entire world should look to some guidance from above and PRAY. The Pope is our messenger!
Satan has this whole world in his hands right now, even the www world wide web and only Jesus Christ can defeat him! These are only the FIRST pangs of distress! An awakening!
Does the Pope get more press than the war and threats of war? Did his message affect the believers and non-believers in these troubling times? What Satan has done to infiltrate the minds of the everyone on this earth, rebelling if one believes in their souls that Jesus Christ is our true savior, but we can't profess it! Satan is laughing at us, right now and is working overtime because he knows his time is getting shorter to end the greed and the system of things! God had a plan long, long ago and people blame Him for the suffering!
Read Rev. 9:11. Many people of the world think of the USA as Satanically influenced and, by all indications, we ARE powerful, but not powerful enough in faith and materialistic beyond all reason!
Man made this catastrophe happen through Satan's influence. God gave us signs of things to come by his Holy word, but has Man REALLY paid attention? Man has become lovers of money, as it is written!
I will pray for the world to come to grips with reality. I am not a heretic. I simply believe in God that he will send his Son again in all his glorious power to once and for all, end the reign of the great deceiver, the Lord of Destruction forever!
Yours, in Christ!
Kathleen
Hi Deannie (1:36 pm)
"I would be interested to hear from Joyce, DouginM, Setterman, Rudi, Leanna, Paul, OldManoftheski, etc."
I'll be praying for you. The question you've been asked, has been asked numerious times in recent months in the comments section and each of us you've mentioned has tried to answer the question based on our personal understanding of our faith, the Word of God, current events, and how we see it infiltrating the body of Christ. You may have even already responded to it yourself.
So far, none of us has been able to offer a summary that effectively
answers the question. My response can be found in the Tuesday, April 15, 2008 comments. - Rudi
Deannie, in 1985 Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon published THE SEDUCTION OF CHRISTIANITY. The book was band from the church I went to; I left. Lots of people don’t like all that these men say and I don’t agree with all they say, and at times they make me angry, but their book warned of The New Age advancement in the preaching of Copeland, Hagin, Tilton, P.Y. Cho, and many others. WEIGHED AND FOUND WANTING by Bill Randles is another book worth the read.
Less obvious, but no less dangerous is tacit reliance on materialism; an idol dominating the post modern church. What makes the Church the Church is the Spirit, and “if that same Spirit which raised Christ from the dead dwells in you. . .”
Constance:
On your radio show a few months ago, if I remember correctly you mentioned that several years ago you read something in Dave Hunt's autobiography that concerned you.
I haven't read this book myself and would appreciate if you could elaborate on what that was if possible.
I am also interested in hearing about the problems you have seen or experienced with Spiritual Counterfeits Project (SCP).
Thank you.
Hi Deannie,
As far as I know, dissent has gone at least as high as some bishops. There have been some liberal Cardinals, but I don't know of any who have crossed the line into outright apostasy.
Most recently, a retired Bishop from Australia named Geoffrey Robinson who apparently has ties with Leonard Swidler was barred by Cardinal Roger Mahoney from speaking in his Archdiocese. Constance knows who Leonard Swidler is.
Cardinal Mahoney barred Robinson from speaking in the wake of a Vatican directive.
Moreover, Cardinal Mahoney isn't the only one who has barred Robinson from speaking in his archdiocese. Here is the lowdown.
http://tinyurl.com/6qdzro
http://tinyurl.com/4jskhk
http://tinyurl.com/6ofohs
http://tinyurl.com/6qdzro
It would appear that Robinson, who is supported by a dissident group called Voice of the Faithful, is exploiting the sex abuse crisis in order to peddle his "brave new church" agenda.
You mentioned something about waffling over non-essentials and you are on the right track.
There is an old theological principal to the effect that "if you don't act the way you think, soon you begin to think the way you act."
Another old aphorism states "all heresy begins below the belt."
In the early days of the Church many Christians backslid into paganism because paganism gave free reign to sinful pleasures of the flesh.
I certainly would not presume to speak for the Protestant community, but many of the problems in the Catholic Church began with dissent over the Church's teachings on sexual morality.....sometimes even abortion as in the case of the so-called "Catholics for a Free Choice."
From there, it escalated into the more serious errors because in order to ease their guilty consciences many of the dissenters had to rationalize their wrongdoing by undermining the authority of those who taught them that what they were doing was wrong.
This came to include the Bible, since for a Catholic the Bible is part and parcel of Sacred Tradition and is inseparable from it.
For example, some members of the homosexual community have said that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed on account of the lack of hospitality on the part of the inhabitsnts of those two cities. Here is an example of the kind of Scriptural distortion I am talking about.
http://tinyurl.com/5tulr2
In the history of the Catholic Church there have even been a few "black" popes, but they never taught error in any official capacity.....they were too busy living it up to worry about teaching anything.
Fortunately for us Catholics, we are taught that Jesus made His church "Pope-proof" and His Sacraments "priest-proof."
In fact, one of the greatest comeback lines in history happened just about 200 years ago.
"The French emperor Napoleon was swallowing up countries in Europe with his armies bent on total world domination. He then said to Cardinal Consalvi, "I will destroy your Church." "Je detruirai votre eglise!" The Cardinal said, "No you won't." Napoleon, all 5'2" of him said, "Je detruirai votre eglise!" The Cardinal said with confidence, "No you won't. Not even WE have succeeded in doing that!"
http://tinyurl.com/59ck4w
Elfie- My statement if taken in the context of "interfaith" gatherings is clear. (Christian,Muslim,Jew,Hindu,Sufi, Buddist,Wiccan etc.)
"I have very strong convictions when it comes to compromising the message of the cross and the failure to challenge false religions with the truth of the gospel for the sake of peace."
To clarify:
False: Not Truth
Religion: Mankind's attempts to “know” God and find truth
Truth: “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
False Religion- A religious belief system that does not acknowledge Jesus Christ and His shed blood as the only means offered to the world by God to reconcile mankind to Himself.
REGARDING INFILTRATION OF CHRISTIANITY
It appears to me that there are several people posting here who keep trying to put the Catholic church followers on the witness stand because they don't like the organization and its belief system.
Rudi, I went back and read your April 15 comment Rudi along with my response to you. Writing a long, convoluted philisophical essay was not an answer, no matter how well meaning.
Just as there is the Catholic church, there are many major organizations of Protestant churches, each binding its followers with a set of beliefs, each holding organizational meetings, each with its own hierarchy.
Frankly I think it's just a case of attacking "the other." It's much easier for some Protestants to attack Catholics and Jews rather than looking at what is happening in the midst of their own organizations.
I have yet to see Protestants writing about the New Age practices in the Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Angelican or Pentecostal ORGANIZATIONS for instance.
Here are a few lists to work with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
Matthew Chapter 7, verses 1 - 5.
Dorothy
Deannie,
Just a little comment about denominations... I don't think denominations are a particularly Biblical concept either. I understand how they developed as Protestants protested and splintered off from the Catholic Church each of the Reformers had different ideas which led to the formation of denominations..I believe the Reformation was a necessary step leading back to Biblical truth, however it was incomplete.
God sovereignly permitted both the Catholic Church and denominations, but that doesn't mean this is His perfect plan. Can He work in the midst of imperfection? Absolutely. Even in the midst of the corruption of Second Temple Judaism, God was working. Yeshua came in the midst of a corrupt generation to die for us.
All that to say, that there signs of the apostasy to one degree or another all over. I don't believe there is a "perfect denomination" or a perfect congregation. The mainline denominations are struggling with splits over ordaining homosexual clergy for example. The Emergent churches are practicing mysticism. There is a strong push towards ecumenical movements between Jews, Christians and Muslims. There is the Pentacostal variety of deception, most recently with people like Todd Bentley....so we can see that apostasy comes in many shapes and sizes, and infiltrates all over the place.
What is the solution? I believe that in our days, God is restoring Torah. Does that mean we are saved through Torah observance? No. That means that the Torah is God's holy teaching that protects His children. The New Covenant is Torah written on our hearts, and yet people say that "Jesus fulfilled the Law, so we don't have to obey it anymore" to which I say...look at the results. What we have today in churches is a result of 1900 years of abolishing God's teachings. Antinomism, or torahlessness is evident all over the place...We have abolished God's Sabbath...He never did. We have abolished HIs teachings about what meat is edible for consumption and what is not...so where do we draw the line. The institutional churches beginning with the Catholic Church, have put their traditions above God's Torah...
Salvation comes through the blood of Yeshua, but sanctification comes through walking with Him, which we can only do when we listen to His voice.....He said "My sheep will hear My voice". His voice is the same voice as YHVH's. They are echad ( one). We have made Yeshua into a different God who doesn't follow Torah, which is absurd because He came to bring the correct interpretation of Torah. He was the Word who became flesh!
I believe that the remnant of true believers might exist in many different congregations, and ultimately He will separate the wheat from the tares...
I love the story of Josiah, when he discovers the Torah scrolls that were in the Temple all along, but they had been forgotten about. I love his response. He mourned at the level of disobedience there had been in Israel... and repented ( changed direction).
When the king heard the words of the book of the law, he tore his clothes. 2Ki2:11
There are many lessons for us in this story today. God has not changed.....The Torah scrolls are still there, but we forgot to read and obey them. They address all the issues of idolatry, apostasy, fornication, homosexuality, etc, etc. His calendar has not changed. Guess what, Yeshua will come back during the feasts ( moedim). It would behoove everyone to study the feasts of Lev 23, if they want to be watching for the "season" of His Second Coming. The Church has annulled these, so people are out of touch with the cycle that God gave us to "meet with Him".
If we take the dust off the Torah scrolls and hear the voice of God, we will not have churches or denominations. We will be echad ( one). We will be the called out assembly from the Wilderness who is built on the Rock, Yeshua, who gives us the Living Water and is the Bread of Life, the manna....
One day very soon...
Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:2-3
My whole position is that we should go back to the Hebrew roots of the faith( notice, I did not say Jewish...I said Hebrew) and see what the text of Scripture really says, not just "protest" against the Catholics, although I am a strong protester ( as you already know) against the Catholics. The Catholic Church might have started this problem, but the Bride of Messiah will be spotless. Yeshua washed us with His blood, but if you believe as I do, that His blood is precious and expensive, why would we want to go out and break His commands all over again. Thank God we are cleansed of our violations of Torah, which we do accidently, but does this mean that now we are "free in Christ" to willfully disobey God...heavens no!!
By the way, Abraham was a Hebrew, and Hebrews "cross over". We are called to step out of our familiar territory and follow the voice of God, not that of false shepherds, whether they are Popes or denominational leaders or gurus. "My sheep hear My voice"..."I am the Good Shepherd who lays His life down for My Sheep"...Do you hear His voice......if you do, you will follow Him wholeheartedly....
Sorry Deannie, I didn't really answer your question, but I did indirectly. I hope that clarifies my position on the denominations...
Resting in Yeshua...this Shabbat,
Joyce
Dorothy,
The verse in Matthew is often misquoted. That does not mean that God never wants us to examine things in light of His Word. This is the verse most often quoted to teach tolerance of everything and everyone.....Having said that, I agree with you that there are problems throughout Christianity and the Messianic Movement.
I believe the only solution is to go back to the Word. The only thing that God promises to bless is His Word..
Deut. 30:10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
Deut. 30:11 ¶ “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
Deut. 30:12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
Deut. 30:13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’
Deut. 30:14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
Deut. 30:15 ¶ “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deut. 30:16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
Deut. 30:17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
Deut. 30:18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
Deut. 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Deut. 30:20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
He says that the Torah is for the native born and the alien...
Num. 15:16 ‘There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”
In talking about Israel ( the natural branches and the nations) look what Paul says:
Rom. 11:17 ¶ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
The natural Olive Tree is Israel...
Where have we gone wrong??? We did exactly what Paul said not to do..The gentile believers became arrogant and thought they did not need to be part of the Olive Tree called Israel, whose God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.. They thought they were growing oranges not olives. Olive trees produce olives, and in order to produce olives the grafted branches need draw their nourishment from the same source, the Hebraic Roots of their faith...
This is why Jews for centuries thought that "Jesus came to make a new religion". Guess what, Yeshua was a Jew, and He did not institute a new religion. He came for the Lost Sheep of Israel....He is their long awaited Messiah, and He came as a Jew, lived as a Jew and died as a Jew. Gentiles don't need to convert to Judaism, but they do need to find their nourishment from the roots of the Olive Tree in order to live out their faith.. Religions obscure this truth of Scripture.....
Joyce
NOTE TO JOYCE
You're strange. Be happy. I know you mean well.
Dorothy
INFILTRATION of CHRISTIANITY
This as stated before is a big undertaking. You can't specifically say one denomination such as Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, Assembly of God, Calvary Chapel, etc is specifically New Age.
A lot depends on the structure of the denomination. To start this, I think you would almost have to look at if the church had a convention and what things they have adopted at that convention.
Here you could apply the criteria set forth by Deannie,
“ In the nonCatholic Christian world, straying from the clear Biblical Gospel of Jesus Christ seems to be the third step in whole congregations becoming ripe for New Age delusions. The first two steps are: 1.) ceasing to study the Bible systematically 2.) waffling on "nonessential" doctrines because they unpleasant to present to nonbelievers. (John 6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples murmured about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?")
Eventually, the waffling grows to the essentials and Gospel is diluted or changed (step 3). When the Word is not studied and the Gospel is not proclaimed faithfully, all manner of deception is creeping in.”
But even doing this there are no hard and fast rules. Take the Southern Baptist. You could look at the convention and see what things they have adopted or condemned. Seems pretty good right? Now take in account all those Southern Baptist Churches that follow Rick Warren. Where is the line drawn?
Then you have other denominations that are not governed this way, such as Church of Christ, Church of God , and Independent Christian Churches. Where do you look there except for each individual church.
What about Churches such as Life Church. This is a satellite fed all over the country. Mostly the messages are good. Where is the control over these off shoots and how about the local “Life” groups? Could New Age thinking influence many of these?
For Christian organizations it gets even harder. You have Christian organizations such as Focus On The Family. James Dobson has been linked to several New Age leaders and philosophies (such as personality testing). Does that make Focus as a whole New Age? I say no, because of their continued fight of the unborn. Now do I have concern over where that organization maybe headed? Can you see them on the slippery slope with some of the material they offer? You bet!!
What about local Metro Prayer Breakfasts? The one here locally is put on by the CBMC. Herman Reece started this organization. One could look at the website and see nothing in the language that pops out of you as New Age. They have speakers at sponsored events. Some of those speakers could be New Age and promote it in their talks. I would say unless you know the “language” these would probably not be noticed by the average Christian person. So how do separate the individual from the Organization?
I don’t even know that this could really be done from a Catholic prospective. It seems that it would be easier to follow. From my understanding, the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church. You can look at what he says and that is what true Catholic Churches should be following. Can he make mistakes? Absolutely! He is human just like the rest of us.
I know there are those Catholic Churches that split in regard to Vatican II. It may just be me. However, in my experience those who seem to hold to Vatican one have a lot less New Age teachings in them. Again, I can’t say this is a hard and fast rule, just generally speaking.
My whole point is this. You can’t look at anything at a whole you have to look at each individual Church. What kind of classes are they offering? What other books besides the Bible are being followed? Where is the Pastor getting his information for his sermons? How often is The Message being used?
Even those things are just a generalization. In my opinion although there may be some organizations that you could name, in the end you have to name individuals.
ADDITIONAL NOTE TO JOYCE
I do think a lot about you, though not about what you write. I wonder what kind of person you really are.
When in person I warn others about the New Age movement I don't keep going back and hammering the information. I am confident that what I tell them is correct and they will come to see that as events in their life confirm what I've told them.
Posting here is different as here we share information about New Age that we can take out into the community. It's not personal.
A couple who are truly in love do not keep telling their friends how much in love they are. They don't need to convince everyone how much in love they are.
I wonder if you are really comfortable with your connection to Messianic Judaism. You keep trying so hard to convince me that it's so right. Are you really trying to convince yourself?
Another thought crossed my mind, one not so charitable. Nietzsche wrote about will vs will. "Before we begin, however, it should prove helpful to explain what Nietzsche's doctrine of ‘the will to power' actually is. A psychological presupposition of Nietzsche's is that humans are always attempting to inflict their wills upon others. Every action toward another individual stems from a deep-down desire to bring that person under one's power in one way or another."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/travis_denneson/power.html
I hope this isn't the case as it would go directly against your Christian beliefs. But if it is so, you've chosen the wrong target.
Dorothy
DAWN'S ANALYSIS OF RELIGIOUS GROUPS
You are right about your comments on individual Protestant groups because they apply to Catholic and Jewish groups also.
It's easy to make gross generalizations the less a person knows about a topic. Comments about Protestant groups are no exception. The more you know about a situation, the harder it is.
Nevertheless, Protestants who see the New Age themes in the Catholic culture seem to miss the New Age themes in the religion of their choice. It's easy to make excuses for our own weaknesses.
Carrie Tomko and I have disagreements, but I must commend her for her efforts in exposing the manipulators in the Catholic community. Ingrid at Slice of Laodicea, also linked here, works at exposing Protestant weaknesses in holding to the word of God. Both have their opponents. I have had a difficult time in warning Jews about New Age infiltration. Still, perhaps it's best if the criticism comes from inside a community.
It's overall Catholic, Jew or Protestant bashing that is a tool of the New Age manipulators.
Hi Dawn,
I would just like to point out that we Catholics believe that the Pope can indeed make mistakes - EXCEPT when teaching officially ("ex cathedra") in matters of faith and morals.
When teaching "ex cathedra" in matters of faith and morals we believe that the Pope enjoys the special protection of the Holy Spirit by which he cannot err.
Can the Pope sin? Yes he can. Infallibility which is the inability to err when teaching in matters of faith and morals is not the same thing as "impeccability" which is the inability to sin. The Popes are very capable of sinning as history will attest.
I can understand and respect that if you are not a Roman Catholic you do not believe this, but this is what Roman Catholics are required to believe.
With regard to Vatican II, the problem is that the teachings of the Council were never fully implemented the way the Council fathers intended. For example, the council document on the Sacred Liturgy never mandated the abolition of the use of the Latin language in the Mass. Actually, it mandated that while there could be a wider use of the vernacular in certain parts of the Mass like the Scripture readings and the reading of the Gospel the canon of the Mass was to be preserved in Latin.
Anyone who is interested can go to the Vatican website and read the Second Vatican Council documents for themselves. As far as I know, they are all available online.
In closing, I want to say that I agree with what you said when you pointed out that exposing the New Age infiltration of the church needs to take place at the grass roots level with the naming of specific organizations and individuals. If our religious leaders do not take any action when we bring serious doctrinal aberrations to their attention and name names while backing up our claims with take-it-to-the-bank evidence, then the next best thing we can do is to "vote with our feet" and have nothing further to do with that particular parish or congregation - in addition to warning others about the danger.
Dorothy,
An uncharitable thought crossed your mind? I'm shocked!! Love that sense of humor..
Nietzsche is not one of my favorites, so I'll pass on the link, thanks but you are kind of amusing too......
I keep reminding you, Dorothy, I'm not Christian. I'm Jewish like you, well maybe not exactly like you, but I did have plenty of family who were Jewish enough for Hitler, so I guess that qualifies me as a Jew. I know that hasn't sunk in yet, but one day you'll get it....Jewish blood=Jewish. Jewish Messiah=Jewish. You see, I am not a "self-hater" like some. I love the idea of it being okay to be Jewish and love my Jewish Messiah. I don't have any conflict with that at all and neither did Shimon Kefa, Rav Sha'ul, Yacov, etc.. I don't practice the Judaism that depends on the Talmud, but I am from the House of Judah which makes me a Jew. During the Second Temple period the practices of the Jews was pretty varied. Among the Jews there was a group called "the Way" who followed Yeshua. They were originally Phariseees, and believed in the resurrection as opposed to the Sadducees who didn't. There were Essenes as well, and among the school of Pharisees, there was the School of Hillel, the School of Shimei...so you see all Jews do not agree, and therefore agreeing on who the Messiah is or isn't doesn't make one a Jew or not a Jew. Some even thought Simon Bar Kochba was messiah, but they were wrong and that didn't disqualify them from being Jews. Today the Lubivitchers think their fellow Schneerson is messiah, but they are wrong and yet they are still considered Jews. I just happen to be right about Yeshua being Messiah, so that should not disqualify me from being Jewish. It's not a matter of personal opinion, but a matter of a great crowd of witnesses who saw His resurrection and were willing to die for their faith in Him.
It's also a matter of the indwelling Holy Spirit that will convict us of truth. When Yeshua becomes part of your life, you are truly a "new creation" and it's not something that I could fabricate, it's what the power of the risen Messiah has done in some of us on this blogs life. I can't coerce or reason anyone into believe that because it is a work of God, and I am not God.. I will testify about what He did in my life, but after that each one has decide for themselves whether they will believe or not.. That is not in my hands, and I am not foolish enough to think that it is.. I will pray for you though..
Descendants from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi and all who attached to them were called "Jews" regardless of who they believed in, so I do make a distinction between the practice of Judaism as it is practiced today in Reformed, Conservative and Orthodox Synagogues and what I believe. They believe in the Torah and the Talmud, but not in Yeshua. I believe in Torah and Yeshua, but not in the Talmud.
By the way, just in case you think I am writing this only to you, I am writing to others on the blog who don't understand that. When they read the Bible they don't understand that Yeshua wasn't criticizing the leaders for following Torah. He was criticizing them for putting their own traditions above God's Torah. A lot of confusion in interpretation has been caused by verses that appear to criticize Torah, but really don't. It's usually a lack of understanding about the period of Second Temple Judaism that leads to this confusion.
Not crazy about existentialism or post-modernism and all the other vain human wisdom. If you want to talk about the Scriptures, I'm always happy to discuss them. I have read a number of the philosophers in my life, but don't find them as interesting as the Scriptures.
Blessings to you,
Joyce
By the way, Dorothy ...I posted some links on the New Age earlier, so you may want to take a look. There's some pretty interesting stuff on there if you take the time to review it. Maybe you have already come across some of it?
Joyce
DAWN'S ANALYSIS OF RELIGIOUS GROUPS.
I got so involved in writing it that I forgot to sign my name.
Dorothy
Dorothy,
One more thing, "I wonder how you really are"...
Well, I'm not all that bad...at least I have some friends that like me. I am not some "evil person" scheming about what I can do to mess up Dorothy or someone else on the blog. I do take NAM seriously, but I just think the remedy for NAM is the Scriptures, so as the Bible says, what happens if you gain the whole world but lose your soul.....or to put it another way, what happens if someone can identify every New Age guru, organization, etc, but in the end they still perish......? What good is it?
I do share my faith openly with most people I meet, and I know that many will reject Yeshua.....If I have testified to the truth, then my conscience is clear..You have heard the truth, so I don't feel any additional obligation to share anything with you.. You accept Yeshua or reject Him....it's your eternal destination, not mine.
Shalom,
Joyce
Dorothy (sorry this is so long),
I've been thinking about this all day. I would love to be able to clearly identify any New Age infiltrated denominations. But, I think Dawn is right. One can't generalize about entire denominations. Her example of the Southern Baptists is spot on. That fits perfectly with my experience with the EV Free churches. We left one that was on a rapid decline and began stocking "Christianized" New Age books in the library. But, I'm currently in another EV Free church whose Pastor routinely warns about New Age infiltration into Christianity.
I think we can point out churches who have progressed to step 3 (in my terminology) - these would be most of the mainline Protestant denominations. Although, even with those we have to be careful.
If you have followed the schism in the Episcopalian Church, you will observe some are trying valiantly to maintain their adherence to Biblical truth.
From my observations, those denominations who have, as a whole, abandoned strict adherence to the Biblical Gospel of Christ and active Bible study are the same denominations who have EXPERIMENTED with labrynths, contemplative prayer, "Christian" yoga, etc. The ones that come to mind immediately are the Episcopalians, Methodists, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. (Now, as surely as I say this, someone will tell us they go to a great church in one of those denominations. Please don't think I'm saying all do this.)
Anonymous 10:49's observation regarding Carrie Tomko and Slice of Laodicea is true. Two other sources for nonCatholic Christian sources is Kjos Ministries and Lighthouse Trails Publishing (both of which are hostile to Catholic doctrine). I find all three sites are excellent for keeping track of individual Pastors and Christian organizations. For example, Lighthouse Trails has kept a watch on the AWANA clubs when their hierarchy recommended a book on contemplative prayer.
I wish I could give you a concrete answer. I thought maybe some of the others on this site would have better information than me. It seems, they all have had the same experience - at this point it still seems grassroots and or sporadic and not hierarchical.
Deannie
Hi Joyce!
You said:
Just a little comment about denominations... I don't think denominations are a particularly Biblical concept either............. Salvation comes through the blood of Yeshua, but sanctification comes through walking with Him, which we can only do when we listen to His voice.....He said "My sheep will hear My voice".
I believe that the remnant of true believers might exist in many different congregations, and ultimately He will separate the wheat from the tares...
I totally agree with this. This is why I tried to lay out a progression. People, congregations and denominations don't just decide to embrace apostasy and the New Age. I've said before, the precursor to apostasy in the church is always Biblical illiteracy. We know our Shepherd's voice because we know His Word.
When a church loses its taste for the Word of God, by what standard will they judge ideas, information, actions, etc.? We have a local church that has installed a labrynth. They didn't just decide to do this overnight. They had quit studying the Word systematically long ago. There are three labrynths within a 25 mile radius of our house (all at "Christian" churches).
Our family moves every two years. When we need to find a new church, I don't even consider churches in denominations who have long ago abandoned the Bible as their source for truth and teaching. In the past it was because I was afraid that I could not grow spiritually in that environment. I've been learning, that the danger can be much greater than that.
Deannie
Rudi,
I remember your post in April. I agree with it and thought it was well considered.
Setterman,
Sorry to hear about your experience. I think, good, Bible teaching churches are becoming increasingly difficult to find.
Deannie
Hi Susanna,
I've been reading your posts with interest.
"Catholics who are often referred to as "cafeteria Catholics" are those who have knowingly fallen ito the habit of "picking and choosing" those Catholic beliefs that happen to appeal to them and rejecting those that do not."
And then in your reply to my question you discussed the VotF (I checked out their site), Father McBrien, and Bishop Robinson.
I remember studying Liberation Theology in political science in college and we have a friend who is an Eastern Rite Catholic. I gather from most of the Catholics who post here, they know the Bible are some sort of conservative Catholic. And then I read a post on Holly Pivec's site from a Catholic woman who was asking what a labyrinth was because her Catholic church had installed one.
I hope you don't think I'm being cheeky, but it almost seems like Catholicism has it's own denominations - maybe three distinct groups? I would find it extremely helpful if you could give an overview of groups within Catholicism. Then, I might better understand things when you, Elfie, Savvy and others post things.
Thanks for your patience with me.
Deannie
JOYCE RE HER RELIGION
Joyce, a standoff? I'm not going to convert. I don't think you are going to get converts to Messianic Judaism from the Christians who read here. If I'm judging correctly, they already believe they've absorbed what they can from what they call the Old Testament. If they cheer you on, it's because they want another convert to Christianity.
I think certain belief systems are dangerous because they lead in the long run to degenerte activity. That's why I see NA as dangerous.
Monotheistic beliefs are less open to degenerate behavior among their followers because the moral law comes from outside the individual.
Dorothy
Dear Deannie (3:25 AM)
Regarding your statement: "but it almost seems like Catholicism has it's own denominations - maybe three distinct groups? I would find it extremely helpful if you could give an overview of groups within Catholicism."
Although there are always "rebel" factions," there are no "groups" within traditional Catholicsm. However, like both Constance and Dorothy have pointed out time and time again . . . we should ALL be reminded that the New Age Movement has infiltrated and attempted to gain a foot hold in ALL religions: Catholic, Protestant and Jewish faiths.
Remember that the NAM (as well as Satan) are "equal opportunity offenders."
That would be like me asking you to please give me a break down of the groups within the Protestant sect (within the Baptist faith, within the Methodist faith, etc.)
You'd be saying, "WHAT???"
Deannie,
I know the labyrinth has become really big in US churches. That would be a prime example of not understanding what Torah says about this kind of activity. Yes, it begins with not knowing what the Bible says, or knowing what the Bible says, but explaining away as "Old Testament" not applicable, which I'm afraid started a long time ago. If the Torah or the Prophets and Writings are not applicable, then the holy standards that God taught people are no longer applicable either. What most people don't realize when they read the Gospels or Epistles is that in the First Century, the Scripture people were hearing was the Torah, Prophets and Writings and it was assumed that they would go and hear it and grow. They would understand from Torah all about Yeshua.
It's the same thing with the verses on homosexuality, which the Bible calls abomination. People have found a way to explain those away and make them "irrelevant" therefore we have whole denominations split over this issue. Jews are having the same problem as part of Judaism is marrying homosexuals. Do we hear God's voice? If we do, we would understand that heterosexual marriage is His design and His plan. Any time we explain away whole sections of Scripture or make them less important, we will begin to have problems. The Torah is foundational. If Yeshua hadn't lived out Torah, our sins would not be forgiven. If He did live out Torah, why are we not following His example. Why don't we hear the verse,
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-19.
Fulfill here, means to fill up to the full measure with meaning...not to fulfill and therefore it's not relevant. The parts that don't apply, are things that we cannot do...i.e. things pertaining to the Temple.
We need to do what the First Century believers did and interpret the Torah, Writings and Prophets in the light of Yeshua's coming, so that when we read the Tanach, we understand it is ALL about Him. This would protect us from apostasy, because we would understand He is the same, so HIs holy standard did not suddenly change. One more example, tattoos. The Torah forbids them. I'm not condemning people that have them, but someone who comes to Yeshua should not be running around tattooing themselves because the practice is pagan, and yet today we have someone like a Todd Bentley tattooed all over....Tattooes have a very demonic origin. I once heard a believer say referring to tattooes,"but that's the Old Testament and doesn't apply to us." We've done the same thing with the Sabbath. Yes, Yeshua is our Sabbath rest and it's all about Him, but He didn't say to stop and change the date......Taking that out of Hebrews 4 is a real stretch on the interpretation. First Century believers were still observing the Sabbath, going to the synagogues and hearing Torah.
Dorothy,
Not trying to convert anyone. This is a forum where people write their opinions, so I'm explaining one of the ways I believe the NAM can come into Churches, but the same holds true for synagogues, Messianic Assemblies, etc. In fact I believe there is a Messianic working with Todd Bentley but I need to confirm that.
Our protection against error is God's Word. He promises if we listen to it, He'll bless us. If we don't we can get into trouble. It's not that complicated, but we've made it complicated by theologically explaining away simple commands. This is where Eve got into trouble "did God really say".....well yes He did and He never rescinded any of His Word. Yeshua was clear about that. Somehow after the First Century and the destruction of the Temple, the apostasy had already started. Everything we have now, existed back then, Mystics, Gnostics,Ascetics, etc. The Mystery Religions had already been spread around the ancient world and this is the environment that both Christianity and Judaism grew up in. Kabbalah for example, would be strictly forbidden by Torah, and yet over the centuries it developed and was legitimized.
I'm trying to answer the question about how this error was spread, and there's nothing new under the sun. Satan, the father of lies is the same old snake asking, " did God really say?" If we can explain away so much of Scripture as irrelevant to us, of course we're going to get in trouble.
Joyce
Not to change the subject or anything, but here's some more of the "ascension transition" stuff..It's really bizarre stuff:
http://www.ashtarcommand.net/events
Joyce
Another weird:
http://www.rainbowcircle.net/
Joyce
Crimson circle mentions "new energy", so here is what the New Energy is all about:
http://www.newenergymovement.org/
Joyce
...and this:
http://www.cseti.org/index.shtml
Joyce
....and this....He's connect to the world puja network:
http://www.theorionproject.org/en/index.html
and this:
http://www.aero2012.com/en/papers.html
He sounds so scientific...but..
http://www.worldpuja.org/conversations.php
Joyce
Hi Deannie,
I have no problem at all answering your questions since I feel I can rest easy that you are not going to think that my answering your questions is an attempt to "convert" you.....not that I wouldn't be delighted to own you as a fellow Roman Catholic, of course, but that would have to be your own free choice.
:-)
But all kidding aside, to get to the point, Roman Catholics do not have "denominations" as such.
Putting it as simply as possible, the Rule of Faith for Catholics is Scripture and Sacred Tradition. For Catholics, Scripture is part of Sacred Tradition and is inseparable from it since we Catholics believe that the Christian faith has been handed down to us intact vis a vis an unbroken concrete historical Apostolic succession which began with Peter and the Apostles and is embodied today in the Pope (Benedict XVI) and those Bishops who are in full loyal communion with the Pope - also known as the "teaching authority" or "magisterium" of the Church.
In order to be a Catholic in good standing, one must be obedient to the Magisterium in matters of faith and morals. Those who are disobedient may call themselves "Catholics," but to the degree that they dissent against church teachings, they are NOT Catholic.
Even the Pope must abide by the Rule of Faith. Being Pope doesn't mean that he can teach anything he pleases.
A perfect example of this is the issue of women's ordination to the Roman Catholic priesthood. The Pope has said over and over that he does not have the right to make such a change to the Sacrament of Holy Orders which we Catholics believe is one of the Sacraments ("outward signs") instituted by Christ to serve as a channel of His grace. Those women, moreover, who have defied the Pope by attempting to be "ordained" have excommunicated themselves. So have those who have performed the bogus "ordinations."
We Catholics believe that when the Pope teaches officially "ex cathedra" ( "from the chair" of Peter )in matters of faith and morals he enjoys the special protection of the Holy Spirit and cannot err.
If I am repeating this, it is because it bears repeating so that you can understand that so-called "Catholics" who dissent against the official teachings of the Magisterium are not in full loyal communion with the Pope......and to the degree in which they are not....again...they are simply not "Catholic."
Another thing. Many people erroneously think that "excommunication" is something the Church DOES to people......just as they erroneously think that hell is a place God SENDS people. Wrong! Excommunication is something people do to themselves vis a vis their own CHOICE to knowingly and wilfully depart from Church teachings.....just as hell is the state of a person's soul who knowingly and wilfully chooses to reject God and His Commandments.
All the Church does in "excommunicating" someone is to charitably inform a person (a.k.a. "fraternal correction") what he has already done to him/herself. Usually, many private warnings are given to the person before a formal excommunication decree is made public. Two recent examples of this is the group known as the ARMY OF MARY headed by Marie Paul Giguere and a so-called "seer" named Julia Kim. Both were warned again and again that they had seriously wandered off the Catholic Christian reservation, but they nevertheless persisted arrogantly in their disobedience until the church had no choice but to declare them excommunicated for the protection of the rest of the Catholic faithful.
If everyone who grievously departs from Church teaching is not formally declared to be excommunicated, it is likely because these persons are not in a position to do serious harm to other Catholics - as a priest, religious, or Catholic lay leader might be. In such less public and/or notorious cases of dissent, the Church leaves it to the local priests and bishops to deal with such situations as they arise in various dioceses and parishes.
In closing, I would like to suggest that if you want to find out more about what Catholics truly believe, you can consult the Catechism of the Catholic church or find out what the Popes have taught by checking out the documents at the Vatican website.
Here is an online version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
For what it's worth, here is an online version of the old Baltimore Catechism in four parts that I was required by my mother to memorize when I was a child....before the Second Vatican Council.
http://tinyurl.com/56m7t5
http://tinyurl.com/5spud5
http://tinyurl.com/6l9wgm
http://tinyurl.com/6mh3fb
Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia from the CATHOLIC ONLINE site.
http://tinyurl.com/67q3gg
Here is the Vatican website:
http://tinyurl.com/67q3gg
If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. I have to go and get ready for Mass, so God bless, and have a sparkling day! :-)
Hi Susanna,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I'm curious about your comments from 9:55 and this last one where you joke about converting me.
Does official Catholic doctrine teach that all Christians outside the Catholic church are potentially heaven bound? Even if they die outside Catholicism? If not, I wonder that more Catholics are not concerned with conversion of their friends. I've never met a Catholic who has tried to convert me. I'm assuming then, official Catholic doctrine is that any Chrisian, regardless of denomination, has the same salvation as Catholics.
I'll check out the links later today. I've gotta run.
Thanks again.
Deannie
susanna,
just curious, why does the pope have "more" of the Holy Spirit as to not err than someone else having the Holy Spirit?
JB in CO
To Joyce regarding your 8:03 AM message to Dorothy, telling her:
"Not trying to convert anyone."
Joyce: Thanks for making us roar out loud with laughter over our breakfast cereal. The only people out there who believe THAT are the ones who haven't read ANY of your other previous posts over these many many months, where you were clearly "trying to convert" Dorothy . . . along with everyone else who doesn't share your views!!!
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce: you have a very "selective" memory, dear.
Hi Susanna,
I may have found my answer in your Balitmore catechism:
9. Q. What must we do to save our souls?
A. To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity;
that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our
heart.
I take this to mean that all Christians regardless of denominations can have salvation apart from Catholicism. Maybe you can correct me if I'm reading this wrong.
Thanks. Deannie
To Deannie (10:18 AM):
Regarding your statement:
"I wonder that more Catholics are not concerned with conversion of their friends. I've never met a Catholic who has tried to convert me."
Deannie: What makes you think that Catholics are not "concerned" with converting their friends? Do we have to get on CC's blog here and ANNOUNCE our attempts to you? Or maybe present you with some type of "documentation?"
As far as trying to convert you, Deannie . . . well, first you would have to express an INTEREST in wanting to be converted. Then some of us (like Susanna, Savvy, Elfie, etc.) would be more than happy to do everything to help and support your decision.
Dorothy: You are absolutely right. There are a FEW on CC's blog here who DO seem to want to put Catholics on the "witness stand."
Question: why are some of you so obsessed with Catholics? We're not obsessed with YOUR religion!!!
OK, I'm off to Mass now . . . have a nice day, everybody.
To the one who is laughing over their breakfast cereal. Maybe you did not read my blogs as carefully as you thought, or maybe you just don't understand what it means to be born again, in which case I'll pray for you too....whoever you are.
Salvation is of God. When the Holy Spirit comes and convicts someone of sin and righteousness and judgement and they realize the only hope for them is what Yeshua did on the tree, and the fact that He and He alone overcame sin and death they are born-again.
If you read the Bible you might remember what Yeshua said to Nicodemus:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:1-5
Unless the Spirit of God draws someone, they cannot be saved. I can share Scripture, but I cannot convert anyone and I know that better than anyone, because no one could have "converted" me. However, the Bible says without hearing:
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” Romans 10:14-16
We can announce a message, but what people do with it is out of my hands.. If whoever you are, you believe in the good news of the Gospel, it's pretty sad that you are criticizing me for sharing it with Dorothy or anyone else, or are you one of those who say "live and let live" and let people perish without hope of forgiveness for their sins. If you are, you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why...If I have been blessed to have the Living God touch me and change my life, why wouldn't I want to share it. Sharing is not "converting people". I am incapable of converting anyone.
Joyce
To "JB in CO" (10:22):
To those of you who are SINCERELY
searching for answers on the Catholic faith (such as the church's teaching on the Pope's "infallibility in matters of faith and morals," etc. -- which is much too long to post here) . . .
There are MANY Catholic web sites:
www.catholicencyclopedia.com
www.catholic.com
www.everythingcatholic.com
www.ewtn.com
(The last one, EWTN is a cable televison Catholic network that recently showed the Pope's "World Youth Day" LIVE for the past 6 days.)
"I've never met a Catholic who has tried to convert me."
Deannie you appear to be working from a narrow definition of "conversion." Catholics place emphasis on personal holiness. They would tend to view the example they set through how they live their lives as the key ingredient in "conversion". The rest is left to the Holy Spirit.
Many Protestants tend to take a "hard sell" approach based on talking about their religious beliefs to others. This can actually be counterproductive to the Gospel, and drive people "sitting on the fence," away from Jesus Christ, especially when one's own life is clearly at odds with the "faith" one professes verbally. I've seen this happen.
Whether one approach to "conversion" is superior to the other is a matter of opinion; whether the Bible supports one method over the other is open to interpretation.
The standards you are applying are not universal ones, and, although based on YOUR reading and itnerpretation of scripture, may have a different meaning to people outside your own religious denomination who interpret the Bible DIFFERENTLY from you.
Judging the seriousness of a person's commitment to Jesus Christ based on whether they are willing to verbally talk about it to others is something I think is ludicrous. It is no less ludicrous because it is commonplace.
But that's just my opinion....
I WROTE: "Judging the seriousness of a person's commitment to Jesus Christ based on whether they are willing to verbally talk about it to others is something I think is ludicrous. It is no less ludicrous because it is commonplace."
I SHOULD HAVE WRITTEN:
"Judging the seriousness of a person's commitment to Jesus Christ based on HOW MUCH they are willing to verbally talk about it IN A CERTAIN WAY to others is something I think is ludicrous. It is no less ludicrous because it is commonplace."
After reading some of the comments about Catholic conversion, I would just add to my previous comment, if we read Yeshua's words, He never told Nicodemus to go join a Catholic Church or any other church for that matter. He told Him that he had to be born-again, born of the Spirit or Ruach in Hebrew. What Yeshua says to him after this is also very interesting:
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:9-16
Yeshua expected Nicodemus as a Pharisee to understand the notion of being "born of the Ruach" as opposed to our physical birth as babies. In order to explain further, He references back to the story when Israel was in the desert and sinned and were dying because the firey serpents were biting them. Yeshua talks about being lifted up....as the bronze serpent was "lifted up" so would He be "lifted up" and that would be a sign, that looking up Him and believing would bring forgiveness of sin.
Gazing upon a bronze serpent is not magic..it was the faith and obedience that allowed the Israelites to live. It is the same with the new birth in Messiah Yeshua. It is an act of faith to believe when He was lifted up, that we receive new life in Him and that our sins are forgiven. There is nothing we can add to this to this atoning work. All we can do is believe.....when we believe the logical step is walking in obedience to God's commands out of love and gratitude for all He has done for us. How can we neglect such a great salvation?
We don't believe in a church or a denomination. We believe in Him, and His Spirit will guide us in all truth. We don't need a Pope. We need the Ruach HaKodesh, which is given to us the moment we believe and that is how we are "born of the Spirit" and receive new life. It is no longer, I who live, but Yeshua the Messiah living in me. Being born of the Spirit means that I no longer live just to satisfy my sin nature, but I live by His Spirit, obeying His Word. Trying to live out God's Word without His Spirit empowering us is difficult, but when we receive Him, He fills us with His Spirit and we walk in His power and can be led in all truth, therefore we do not need a Pope.
The Pope would not be entitled to any more Holy Spirit than any other human being. There is no office of Pope in the Bible to begin with. The day of Shavuot, the Ruach HaKodesh was given to everyone who was there, all 3000. Read the account in Acts. The only story where we see "extra Holy Spirit" is when Elijah is passing his mantle to Elisha and Elisha requests a double portion. The role of the Spirit prior to Yeshua's death is different than after. It was given selectively. After Yeshua, it is given to the priesthood of believers to which we all belong, when we put our trust in Him.
1Pet. 2:9 ¶ But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Joyce
Joyce
Deannie & Joyce-
Each of you, hit the bull’s-eye in your individual comments summarizing the the way a “spirit of error” gains it’s foothold in the body of believers.
Deannie:
"…I've said before, the precursor to apostasy in the church is always Biblical illiteracy. We know our Shepherd's voice because we know His Word."
Joyce:
"…Satan, the father of lies is the same old snake asking, " did God really say?" If we can explain away so much of Scripture as irrelevant to us, of course we're going to get in trouble."
As I read, my thoughts went back to what I’ve learned about “the chain of infection” in the human body. There is ALWAYS a source where infection
has its origin. In recent months we’ve heard a lot about one of the most insidious, unexpected sources for a particularly dangerous (sometimes fatal, but always damaging) bacterial infection called MERSA . It is transmitted to a susceptible host through a port of entry, in the place they least expect to find it. A place of healing, such as hospitals and other medical facilities. It is transmitted by the staff, the people who should know the most about how to prevent infections from starting and spreading in the first place. Either you go by the book or suffer the inevitable consequences. I know you both understand the comparison I’m making to the Word of God and why we emphasize our reliance on it above all as our source of Truth.
“Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.”
2 Timothy 4:2
“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”
Romans 10
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14
-Rudi
To Joyce (11;31 AM) . . .
No need to "pray for me" as I have been "born again" -- and am also completely at peace with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who was crucified and died for the sins of ALL mankind." (But, then I really don't need to PROVE anything to you, do I?)
And, you most certainly HAVE tried to "convert" Dorothy on numerous occasions . . . and you have also been reprimmanded for it!!!
To Rudi (1:08 PM)
Enjoy your little "good old boy" network and "clique" of so-called "Christians" (who DON'T "love thy neighbor as thyself")-- who constantly DEMAND that Catholics answer your questions . . . BUT DON'T REALLY WANT TO HEAR OUR ANSWERS!!!
We are NOT on trial here!!! And, we don't have to answer to ANY of you . . . only to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!!
Because Constance often takes a "hands off" and / or and "let them work it out among themselves" approach to her bloggers . . . the results are that some of you are out of control and absolutely obnoxious in your intolerance of others and their beliefs.
Just WHO do you think you ARE???
JB in CO,
In answer to your question:
"just curious, why does the pope have "more" of the Holy Spirit as to not err than someone else having the Holy Spirit?"
Since, as a Catholic, I believe that "the fullness of truth is to be found in the Catholic Church," it follows that I would also believe that the Holy spirit operates most fully in the successor of Peter. If I didn't believe this, I would have no business being or remaining a Roman Catholic - any more than you would have any business remaining a Protestant if you didn't believe the things your Protestant communion teaches or that the Holy Spirit operates most fully in your communion.
Just an observation. You have indirectly made one point that deserves to be showcased....I am sure that we both learned that there is but ONE Holy Spirit. If one were to judge by all the divisions in Christendon, it would appear that there seem to be an awful lot of "holy spirits" floating around teaching often contradictory "Christian" doctrines and each claiming that they are "true."
In any case, since God is able to "draw straight with crooked lines," the best we can do in a Christendom whose schisms are certainly no fault of ours is to try - without compromising with our own sincerely held beliefs - to cooperate with God by looking upon these divisions as an even greater opportunity to love God and neighbor than there would have been if these divisions had never occurred.
There are certainly SOME things that we are able to agree on as Christians - most importantly our Christology and Trinitarian belief!
At the end of the day, I try my best to schlepp along the best I can each day striving to love God above all things with my whole heart,soul and mind and to love my neighbor as myself out of love for almighty God.
When all is said and done, THAT's the Great Commandment and there is no other commandment greater. Mark 12:28-34
In Christ
BRAVO to you Susanna (1:41 PM):
There is NO greater commandment than to love thy God with thy whole heart, with thy whole mind, and with thy whole soul . . . and to love thy neighbor as thyself" --even if SOME of those "neighbors" don't love us back. (LOL)
Hi Deannie,
Yes you can be saved if you are not explicitly a Roman Catholic through no fault of your own....for example if you were born into your non-Catholic Christian communion.
There have been those "Catholics" who have taught otherwise like the late Father Leonard Feeney who was excommunicated and also the radical "traditionalist" Catholics many of whom are still in schism.
http://tinyurl.com/6zglla
The following is the teaching of the Second Vatican Council Decree on Ecumenism:
THE DECREE ON ECUMENISM
"Over the centuries differences between Christians have led to profound divisions, but modern times have seen a great movement towards unity; and the decree begins by saying, "Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. One of the principal concerns of this Council is the restoration of unity among all Christians."
1. All who have been "justified by faith in baptism" are members of the Body of Christ; they all have the right to be called Christian; the children of the Catholic Church accept them as brothers.
2. The Catholic Church believes that the separated Churches and communities "are efficient in some respects." But the Holy Ghost makes use of these Churches; they are means of salvation to their members.
3. Catholics are encouraged to join in Oecumenical activity, and to meet non-Catholic Christians in truth and love. The task of "Oecumenical dialogue" belongs to theologians, competent authorities representing different Churches.
4. Catholics should not ignore their duty to other Christians --- they should make the first approach. Even so, the primary duty of the Church at the present time is to discover what must be done within the catholic Church itself; to renew itself, to put its own house in order. Catholics sincerely believe that theirs is the Church of Christ; everything necessary must be done that others also may clearly recognize it as Christ's Church.
5. The ecumenical movement can make no progress without a real change of heart. Theologians and other competent Catholics should study the history, teaching and liturgy of separated Churches. All Christians have a common purpose -- to confess Christ before men. Practical expression must be given to this, by relieving the distress which afflicts so many of the human race: famine, poverty, illiteracy, the unequal distribution of wealth, housing shortage.
6. In appropriate circumstances prayers for unity should be recited jointly with non-Catholic Christians. Catholics are to be directed in this by their bishops, subject to the decisions of the Holy see.
7. Between the catholic Church and Western non-Catholic Christian communities, important differences remain; these differences are most evident in the interpretation of truth revealed by God. But the bonds of unity are already strong; their strength must be put to use. The bonds are, chiefly, the fact that Christians believe in the divinity of Christ and the fact of reverence for God's word revealed in the Bible.
8. In the cause of ecumenism, the Catholic must always remain true to the Faith that he has received. Impudent zeal in this matter is a hindrance to unity and not a help. So also is any attempt to achieve a merely superficial unity.
http://tinyurl.com/5fnuna
What #8 is saying is that there is only one reason for becoming a Roman Catholic......because you have honestly come to believe that it is true. If you have not, then it is better for you that you remain where you are and "bloom where you have been planted."
God bless!
Susanna,
Very well put. I was a RC until my late 20s, went to catholic school all my life. I just want to make it clear that there are heresies in the RCC as well as Protestant- including and all the way to the top leaders.
I was unaware that "...the Holy spirit operates most fully in the successor of Peter." I am aware of the scriptures stating with Peter He will build His rock, however if I were to take some of those scriptures as does the RCC I could also go to JW, LDS etc., and build on some of their heresies with scripture.
I am not picking on you or any RCC, I do not have "religion". I have Christ Jesus and His Word. James states it plainly that if you want religion than take care of orphans and widows. We could go back and forth on this as we all have seen in the past, just know that I love all of you as brothers and sisters in Jesus.
JB in CO
QUESTION TO JOYCE
I'd like a warning. How many two foot long comments and repeats of same will it take for you to get preaching about Messianic Judaism out of your system? Or will it be measured in years?
Dorothy
Dorothy,
I notice that you like to quote Neitzche and
Freud.
That clarifies a lot for me.
They were both of course devout atheists and Neitzche was one of Hitler's favorites. Both were also long-winded blowhards. Neitzche being the father of the 'Uberman" notion "Beyond Good and Evil" and Freud being the pedophile, coke addicted
poster boy of the Tavistock institute which is behind so much of all this New Age crap.
Do you listen to R.Wagner music as well ?
Joyce
It's a good sign when certain people call you names
like "weird".
Usually it's the name caller that's weird.
paul
Hi Kathleen,
I am so sorry if my discussion on what constitutes a "heretic" upset you. But I just wanted you to know that I was using the term strictly in an academic sense and not in any pejorative (put-down) sense.
Your reasons for becoming a "fallen away Catholic" are between you and God. Only He can judge what is in your heart.
Only He can know what you may have suffered.
I will certainly keep you in my prayers, and, again, there was no intentention on my part to insult or offend you.
In Christ,
Susanna
JB in CO
Apart from our possible denominational differences with regard to what constitutes heresy, you are right in saying that there are heresies in the RC as well as in the Protestant communions -"including and all the way to the top leaders."
To the degree that such beliefs held by members of either Christian communion are truly heretical they as well as those who embrace them are NEITHER RC nor Protestant Christian.
I am specifically referring to errors of the New Age Movement and one that is less obvious and well known but all the more dangerous because it often tends to trick itself out in all the trappings of "traditional" Christianity. This latter system is the kind of "neo-gnosticism" embodied in such groups like the "Ecclasia Gnostica Catholica."
As for your saying "just know that I love all of you as brothers and sisters in Jesus."
Right back at you, JB in CO
Susanna,
Thanks for your responses. You demonstrate knowledge, patience and kindness and I learn much from them. I'm running out the door now, but would love to be able to ask you more - perhaps offline so as not to monopolize the blog.
Deannie
NIETZSCHE AND FREUD
Paul wrote:
"
I notice that you like to quote Neitzche and
Freud.
That clarifies a lot for me."
Now I've quoted you once also, so that proves I like you. After all I only quote people I like.
Dorothy
Deannie said: "..perhaps offline so as not to monopolize the blog."
Now THAT'S a breath of fresh air around here!
Thank you Deannie, for knowing the meaning of "leading by example." Let's hope some others around here can "take the hint."
To the anonymous person who says they are "born again" and are accusing me of trying to convert Dorothy. If you are born again, you should want to see Dorothy know her Jewish Messiah, but having said that I will repeat, I can't "convert" anyone. I will echo with Rav Sha'ul who said:
Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
That would include not only Dorothy, but many others that I know lots better than Dorothy, and some dearly loved friends. When you have received the gift of salvation and are set free, you want the same for others if the Spirit of the Living God is at work in you. If you read the Book of Acts carefully, you will see the zeal that the followers of Yeshua had and they didn't let others disapproval stop them.. If you are truly born again and you don't want to share that with others my question to you would be why not? You don't need to prove anything to me at all. It's a question you should ask in private...As for myself, I don't really have a choice. Every chance I get, I want to share what Yeshua has done for me.
Dorothy,
What can I say? Just read what you want and don't read the rest. I made a number of comments on the NAM, in fact quite a few, but people persist in having religious discussions. I'm always up for a good theological discussion, although I also like talking about politics, NAM, cuisine, the arts, music, etc. I want to send you some lyrics from a beautiful song by Avraham Fried....Maybe you know him. Tried to find the song online, but I couldn't, so here are the lyrics. Maybe you already know it?
Don't hide from me, though i know that you are truly there everywhere,
Still in all i cannot see you, don't hide from me
It's been so long since last time saw You smile
Don't hide from me, where's the promise you would take my hand understand,
My life is not complete without You don't hide from me
I need to see You more than ever now,
Two thousand years is a million years to long
to search for the light that I have never known
Chorus:
Show me your face, I need Your embrace
won't You please come out of your hiding place,
Take me on your wing teach me how to sing
The on song the world wants to hear, Oh father dea.
Don't hide from me,
it seems You're hiding more and more each day, why I pray, I keep on looking, you keep hiding,
I feel so alone, I'm calling to You Father please come home.
Two thousand years is a million years to long
to search for the light that I have never known
Show me your face, I need Your embrace
won't You please come out of your hiding place,
Take me on your wing teach me how to sing
The on song the world wants to hear, Oh father dear.
Who would believe the walls of darkness finally have come down all around,
But the walls that stand between us don't want to fall,
Tell me the final secret to it all
don't hide from me, is my one and only plea,
father can't you see i'm calling desperately
(Chorus)
For all who don't know Avraham Fried, he is not a Messianic. He's a Jew, but you can see his longing in the lyrics. The melody is equally beautiful.
Joyce
To Joyce (7:00 PM):
Regarding your statement . . .
"To the anonymous person who says they are "born again" and are accusing me of trying to convert Dorothy. If you are born again, you should want to see Dorothy know her Jewish Messiah, but having said that I will repeat, I can't "convert" anyone."
What I "want" is NOT the issue here, Joyce. You can't shove your will and your ideas dowm a persn's throat. You can only "lead by example" . . . so I suggest that you try to do that!!!
Alot of dissention in the ranks today; some friendly and some less than so. All I can think of to contribute to this conversation that I confirm in my heart-for I have been very foolish at times in my life even as a follower of Christ: "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."- I Cor 1:25. In this terrible age, I rest in one thing and one thing alone: "I will lift up my eyes to the hills-from whence comes my help? My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. He will not allow your foot to be moved; He who keeps you will not slumber. Behold, He who keeps Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. The Lord is your keeper..."-Psalms 121:1-5a
Thank God for His promises. If I didn't have that to count on, I would be terrified of what is to come.
-SV
To the anonymous poster,
I thank you for your suggestion, but I have one or two suggestions for you, go to the book of Acts and read carefully and then think about your own remark of "leading by example"...Do you really think that you have?
I will repeat, "I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of salvation to all who believe, first to the Jew and then to the Greek" paraphrasing Paul here....
Joyce
SV,
Amen to that.
Joyce
I am posting this anecdote in response to the question of "how Catholics evangelize." I stumbled on it today and thought of this discussion thread:
"Met a man and his family on the flight home from the Anglican Use Conference...he was a non-denom guy, but he talked with great reverence for Catholics, and especially the Pope ("He's the only guy in Christendom calling us all to do the right thing!").
He told me that he had been diagnosed with leukemia about 5 or 10 years prior, and was in the hospital for a long period of time, and that a Catholic priest had come to sit in his hospital room, every day, never bothering him, just praying. He was very moved by it, and told me "That's why I like you Catholics." I told him he should come visit us more often, then!"
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
That is a nice story 1:27. That may be the case today of how modern Catholics evangelize. That has not always been the case. Read about the Catholic missions in California that were instituted to evangelize the heathen indians. Once indians came to the missions, they were locked inside so that they might not escape and return to their heathen ways. Maybe we protestants on this blog learned our techniques from the "mother" church?
Deannie
Anonymous 1:27 and Deannie,
The "Gun 'n Gospel" Evangelization strategy has never worked no matter WHO has used it Catholic or Protestant. If the Catholics used it first SHAME ON THEM!!!
Actually, we all learned the idea from the ancient pagan rulers of Babylon, the pagan Hellenizers like Antiochus Epiphanes IV - a type of Antichrist - and Roman Emperors who fed Christians to the lions if they refused to burn a pinch of incense to Caesar.
For the pagans war was a religious exercise done to expand the territory and power of their false gods. i.e. "My god can lick your god." :-)
Susanna, agreed. If one researches the history of bad acts performed by Catholics throughout the centuries, often in the name of Catholicism, they will find no shortage of material. If one judges the Christian religion(both Catholic and Protestant) based on the bad acts of its individual members, it will come up wanting in the most severe way.
The history to which Deannie refers is one side of the coin. With that said, it is only the tip of the iceberg, and merely affirms what the Catholic Church has always taught about the nature of evil.
I won't bother to list out sone of the torture and oppression inflicted by Protestants over the centuries on non-Protestatns. I presume readers here including Deannie know this history, so what would be the point?
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