Sunday, June 14, 2009

E - M - E - R - G - E - N - C - E ? ? ?

Update: Check this latest addition as well!

SO MUCH IS HAPPENING -- SO FAST. I sure wish Herb Peters were still around to discuss this one and this one!

Stay tuned!


The full text of the just in story:

I am reprinting it here under the Fair Use Doctrine

Israel must seek security through peace: Solana
1 hour ago
CAIRO (AFP) — EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana on Sunday called on Israel to seek security through peace while warning that future talks with the European Union would depend on "Israel's behaviour."
"What's important is to work to convince Israel that its security will be better guaranteed with peace and I think that President Obama clearly explained this in his speech and when he met the Israeli prime minister is Washington," Solana told journalists in Cairo.
US President Barack Obama has been seeking to restart the stalled peace process since taking office in January, with his envoy George Mitchell having just toured the region and reaffirmed US support for a two-state solution.
"There is currently an identical approach shared by us and the new US administration concerning the Middle East's problems and the way to act to resolve these problems," Solana said following talks with Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak and Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit.
Political dialogue between the EU and Israel would continue, Solana added, "but it depends on Israel's behaviour."
Solana has previously hailed a speech by Obama in Cairo on June 4 as opening a "new page" in relations with the Arab-Muslim world and resolving the Middle East conflict.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is to unveil his Mideast peace policy on Sunday, but observers do not expect him to bow to US pressure and back a Palestinian state, the cornerstone of international efforts to end the decades-old conflict.
Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved. More »
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The vast majority in Iran believe that their election was stolen.
Hello! Finally I mastered this Blog technology with the help of my son! I have been following your blog now for many months and is grateful for all the effort and research done by everyone who participates! A friend of mine introduced your book: `Hidden Dangers of The Rainbow` to me in 1987 and it completely explained to me `The Paradigm` by Don Beck, a chart that was used by my friend`s Industrial psychologist husband to evaluate the different personality types in a work place. He had the chart in Gilded Letters! and framed on his office wall. I will scratch about and see if I can post it to you because the last paradigm holds a scary threat.

I am looking forward to contribute here. Please forgive my grammer-English is my second language!
Is there an English translation possible for the 1:58 post?
Whether Chineses or Japenese using Babel to translate - it said nothing! It was not vulgar or hateful.

Hi Constance,
the 1:58 post is Chinese spam that leads to offensive websites maybe porn. Please delete that post.
A question for Len:
I get the impressions you believe we (Jews and Goyim) should be following Old Testament rules. If so, how shall we handle adulterers and sassy children and homosexuals? Please answer.

The article said: "Solana called on the Jewish country to accept peace as a guarantee to its security.

"'What is important is that Israelis are to get convinced that their own security will be better guaranteed with peace,' Solana said.

"The Israeli strategic problems will be served better if there is peace and the global security in the region will be served better if there is peace," he added.

Bibi Netanyahu gave his speech on his conditions for a two-state solution. Under the circumstance and pressures, it was reasonable.

I am under no illusion that the other side, the EU, or even the US, will.

But what is the alternative? To let Hamas run the state and continue firing missiles at even more cities? To allow the new state to sign aa mutual defense treaty with Iran? To allow the state to kidnap more Israelis and to stop the IDF air force and El Al from overflying their territory? To allow 2 million Arab refugees to enter? To Divide Jerusalem? To evacuate all the settlements?

Here is the speech, along with a cover summary:

Sorry but even a comparatively short two-line URL gets truncated here. Here is Netanyahu speech, along with a cover summary:
The Old Testament did prescribe stoning for homosexuals, adulterers, and 'sassy children'if the father decided that was the way.

Come to think of it, we don't really like that concept, do we? Makes one think.


Anon 5:30 PM asked, “I get the impressions you believe we (Jews and Goyim) should be following Old Testament rules. If so, how shall we handle adulterers and sassy children and homosexuals? Please answer.”

1. Jews are, of course, obligated to follow all applicable Torah commandments. But non-Jews are obligated only to follow the seven Noahite laws. These are summarized as proscribing: idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, sexual immorality, eating the flesh of a living animal and, finally, they must set up a justice system to enforce the others. These laws exclude, for examply, observing the Sabbath day which is an obligation just for Jews. (Exod. 31:16-17)

A more detailed web site devoted to the Noahite laws is here:

2. Non-Jews are obligated to refrain from adultery and homosexuality pursuant to the law proscribing sexual immorality. Sassy children should be handled with common sense as they would be if they are Jewish. There is nothing wrong with teaching them to honor parents (Fifth commandment). It is common sense but it is not a commandment for them.

Peace and blessing,

Mariel wrote: "The Old Testament did prescribe stoning for homosexuals, adulterers, and 'sassy children'if the father decided that was the way."

Dear Mariel,

This is not true except under particular conditions that were very rarely applicable.

"The Mishnah (the codification of Jewish law that forms the core text of the Talmud) states that 'a Sanhedrin [Jewish governing council] that puts a man to death once in seven years is called destructive. Rabbi Eliezer ben Azariah says: even once in 70 years. Rabbi Akiba and Rabbi Tarfon say: Had we been in the Sanhedrin none would ever have been put to death.'"

Peace and blesssing,
I just linked to the Estulin reports on the comments section of the last thread. I am viewing with interest, but also with deep caution. "Veteran Reporter Jim Tucker" was named. I'll tell everybody here right now that I would not buy a used car from Jim Tucker any more than I would want one from the Bilderberg crowd. Jim Tucker was an insider with LIBERTY LOBBY and WILLIS CARTO and his SPOTLI8GHT MAGAZINE by whatever current name it may be known. Tucker was involved in a number of Washington, D.C. "holistic" (New Age) organizations and those with "out-of-body" experiences in the 1980s. I once met his ditched ex-wife, the mother of his several children. This was the RIGHT WING of the NEW AGE and anti-Semitism was their game. This was the crowd that had much to hatching the likes of James von Brunn, the 88 year old man who committed the murder of the security guard at the Holocaust Museum last week.

Thanks for the information, Len. You relieved my mind a bit.

Mariel, ( posted this accidently on the previous blog)

If you want to know what Len thinks, go back to the previous post. He thinks the gospel accounts of Yeshua's conviction by the Sanhedrin are bogus. Now I'm sure you don't think that.

I just want to correct Len's errors. The accounts of the corrupt Sanhedrin of Yeshua's day are not false and have not been invented to "persecute Jews". I am a Jew and am very grateful that Yeshua died for me. It would not be the first time in the history of Judah, or Israel where my people were "stiff-necked" and didn't hear the voice of God, so why is it so astonishing that a bunch of corrupt religious leaders sinned against the King of Glory.

Look at the book of Kings.. How many of the Kings were corrupt and evil. They were not all Josiahs or Davids. Having said this, it's not a reason to persecute Jews for "killing Yeshua" because they didn't kill Him. He willing went to His death for the sin of ALL MANKIND.

By the way, in that time many Jews followed Yeshua, so we are talking about a small corrupt leadership.. it's too bad that Len feels the need to defend that corrupt leadership. I prefer to point to the ones who did follow Yeshua besides all of the disciples.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; ( this verse is connected to Paul doing the rights of purification and is in NO way negative about Torah).

Second Temple Judaism was messy. It seems that some of their "oral interpretations" were getting in the way of Torah. Yeshua corrected these constantly and I suspect this corrupt leadership were jealous of his popularity among the common people who saw His power, His wisdom and His miracles.

Nonetheless, the Son of Man came to die, so no one took His life, He laid it down willingly. Even evil men cannot thwart God's plans.

In Acts 2, when Peter confronts them with the reality of what happened, many repented and turned to Yeshua.

As for all of our Torah violations, Len can rationalize them, but the penalty of sin is death. Yeshua paid for our violations of Torah and for this reason we are not "under the law" ... In plain English, He paid for our death penalty and therefore in Him, we are no longer subject to death.

We were born dead in our sins and trespasses, but in Yeshua, we are "born again" thus our spirit lives, and will never die. That new birth takes place at the moment we receive His atoning work for our sins. Without that we will be judged according to what Torah outlines. All have fallen short of the glory of God, and the wages of sin is death, but thanks to Yeshua the Messiah, we have life.

Now that He paid for our sins, should we go out an violate Torah? Heavens no!!! The Noachide laws are another rabbinic invention. That is nonexistent in the Bible. It is another way in which some Jews try to keep a wall of separation between the nations and Jews. The wall of separation was based on rabbinic rulings of Second Temple Judaism, not TORAH.

When most people read the Gospels and Epistles, they do not understand this historical background. I hope by reading Len's writing about "oral law" which he considers as important as written Torah ( the first 5 books of the Bible) that you will understand now some of the confusion that Yeshua was addressing in the Gospels.

Torah, the Word of God written by His finger at Mt Sinai, was not cancelled. On the contrary, it's written on our minds/hearts in the Newer Covenant, by the Spirit of God.


That's why in Zech 8:23 it says in the last days 10 men from the nations will take hold of a tzizit of a Jew, because the tzizit represents keeping the commands of God:

Num. 15:38-39 “Speak to the sons of Israel, and tell them that they shall make for themselves atassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a cord of blue. “It shall be a tassel for you 1to look at and aremember all the commandments of the LORD, so as to do them and not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you played the harlot,

It doesn't say in the last days they are going to keep all the commands except Shabbat. Shabbat is the 4th commandment and it points us to the rest we have in Yeshua.

Zech. 8:23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will 2agrasp the 3garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

The hebrew word for "garment" is known to represent the corners, which is where the tzizit was attached:

3671. כׇ ; נׇף kanaph, kaw-nawf´; from 3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed-clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle:—+ bird, border, corner, end, feather(-ed), x flying, + (one an-)other, overspreading, x quarters, skirt, x sort, uttermost part, wing((-ed)).

In the story of the woman of the condition of the blood in the Gospels, she took hold of Yeshua's tzizit.

Matt. 9:20 And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak;

This fringe was the tzizits of Yeshua.

Now I'm sure Len will try to correct me again, but the problem is without the revelation of Yeshua, his corrections will be faulty because he will always have to explain away all the clear connections to Messiah.

Jews have preserved Torah, but they have added to it with Mishna, Talmud, which are all the rabbinic discussions about interpretation.

By the way, many of these discussions are inconclusive, they go like this Rabbi so and so say... and Rabbi so and so said...

You know the old saying 2 rabbis, 5 opinions.

By the way, Orthodox Jews believe the Oral Torah was given at Sinai, which begs the question, why did it take so long to write down. It was written down well after the death of Yeshua, even though there were oral traditions that existed prior.

Still that's an awfully long time to wait to write what God said down. Don't you think? Ever played a game of telephone.. Extrapolate out 1700 years and imagine how these traditions through exile and everything else might have gotten a little skewed.

Also keep in mind that Jews, when talking about the "sages" are sometimes talking about rabbis who lived in Medieval times like Rambam and Rashi.

When reading the Gospels and Epistles also bear in mind there is only one Greek word for "law". It can mean civil law, law of sin and death etc. It is the same word used to define Torah. Torah does not exclusively mean "law" as I pointed out earlier, although there are legal aspects of Torah, they account for a smaller percentage that what comprises "teachings and instructions".

Understanding Judaism will definitely aid in your understanding of the context in which the Gospels and Epistles are written. It's something that is sadly neglected or distorted in much (not all) Church teaching.

Netanyahu's speech was politically correct. He gave Obama enough to be encouraged about, so the leader of the most powerful nation on earth is not embarrassed ( especially the nation that gives Israel billions of dollars every year, which Israel clearly cares about).

The speech was immediately dismissed by the Arabs as rubbish, so they will not go for Netanyahu's proposition to be a demilitarized state, with no rights of return etc.

I'm sure there will be endless analysis of the speech over the coming days, but the bottom line is how much pressure will US and EU put on Israel visa via economic means? EU has the Mediterranean Union, with a sliding scale of ways to treat trading partners depending on how well they behave. US has lots of nice weapons that Israel wants, not to mention the billions in annual aid.

Did Netanyahu give enough to stop folks like the King of Jordan from screaming about Israel "stealing their land"? I doubt it.

It looks like Netanyahu is buying himself time. It's a complex situation internally, with his coalition being built on a very delicate balance. Too much concession, his government falls apart and they have elections again. The US is aware of this..

No one trusted Livni to negotiation for Israel, so Netanyahu does inspire the Israelis with more confidence.

Jimmy Carter even gave a little.. He said that the the Israelis should have Gush Etzion, a settlement outside of Jerusalem. How generous of him, since God gave Israel the Land, I guess Jimmy can yield just a wee bit. Jimmy is willing to "swap" land for Gush Etzion.. One should ask the question, why Jimmy who helped usher in the Iranian revolution and was not elected for a 2nd term has anything to say about anything.

Since his advisors are the same as Obama's I would listen closely to what he says, in spite of the fact that I vehemently disagree with everything he stands for... We will get some clues as to the Obama thinking from Jimmy. They are both marching to the same drumbeat... Brzezinksi.

There is another impossible request in Netanyahu's speech, impossible for the Muslim nations I should add:

Therefore, a fundamental prerequisite for ending the conflict is a public, binding and unequivocal Palestinian recognition of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.

This request has never been met, even by the so-called moderate Fatah party, who denied ever saying that recently. There is a myth, that there is a difference between Fatah and Hamas, but the truth is they represent two sides of the same coin.. Hamas is openly militant and Fatah plays the "we are more moderate card".. but the truth is that hatred of Israel is taught on both sides, to school children, both sides reject the idea of a "Jewish state".

Personally, I would prefer if it were called a state of All Israel, so that all 12 tribes could come back.. Regardless of what it's called that will happen some day..not because of the politicians, but because of the Messiah:

Ezek. 48:22-35 “Exclusive of the property of the Levites and the 1property of the city, which are in the middle of that which belongs to the prince, everything between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin shall be for the prince. “As for the rest of the tribes: from the east side to the west side, aBenjamin, one portion. “Beside the border of Benjamin, from the east side to the west side, aSimeon, one portion. “Beside the border of Simeon, from the east side to the west side, aIssachar, one portion. “Beside the border of Issachar, from the east side to the west side, aZebulun, one portion. “Beside the border of Zebulun, from the east side to the west side, aGad, one portion. “And beside the border of Gad, at the south side toward the south, the border shall be from aTamar to the waters of Meribath-kadesh, to the brook of Egypt, to the bGreat Sea. “This is the aland which you shall divide by lot to the tribes of Israel for an inheritance, and these are their several portions,” declares the Lord GOD. “These are the exits of the city: on the anorth side, 4,500 cubits by measurement, shall be the gates of the city, named for the tribes of Israel, three gates toward the north: the gate of Reuben, one; the gate of Judah, one; the gate of Levi, one. “On the east side, 4,500 cubits, shall be three gates: the gate of Joseph, one; the gate of Benjamin, one; the gate of Dan, one. “On the south side, 4,500 cubits by measurement, 1shall be three gates: the gate of Simeon, one; the gate of Issachar, one; the gate of Zebulun, one. “On the west side, 4,500 cubits, shall be three gates: the gate of Gad, one; the gate of Asher, one; the gate of Naphtali, one. “The city shall be 18,000 cubits round about; and the name of the city from that day shall be, ‘The LORD is there.’”

Here you will see the language of the book of Revelations so you know we are talking Millennial Kingdom, and you will note that the LAND will be given EXACTLY as God said it would:

Ezek. 47:12-15 “aBy the river on its bank, on one side and on the other, will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their cleaves will not wither and their fruit will not fail. They will bear every month because their water flows from the sanctuary, and their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing.” Thus says the Lord GOD, “This shall be the aboundary by which you shall divide the land for an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel; Joseph shall have two portions. “You shall divide it for an inheritance, each one 1equally with the other; for I swore to give it to your forefathers, and this land shall fall to you as an inheritance.

There will be aliens that dwell among Israel, and they will receive an inheritance and there won't be any bickering:

Ezek. 47:22-23 “You shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves and among the aliens who stay in your midst, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. “And in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give him his inheritance,” declares the Lord GOD.

They will dwell among Israel...

And we won't have to worry about what to call the Land, because there is a name already provided:

Ezek. 48:35 “The city shall be 18,000 cubits round about; and the name of the city from that day shall be, ‘The LORD is there.’”

Re: the "murder" of the security guard at the museum. Has anyone run into the information that the guard was shot by another guard and not the accused? I picked that up recently.
oops did it again, meant to post this here, not on the last blog, sorry:

ATTENTION all those who are thinking about taking the mandatory vaccines for Swine flu:

Just a heads up...

Dear Constance,

I appreciate trhe feedback as well as the heads up on Jim Tucker.

I am no fan of Jim Tucker.

Neither am I a fan of Alex Jones.

But Daniel Estulin himself is another matter.

Actually, I had never heard of him before I saw the article about his book on Spirit Daily. This is why I decided to research Daniel Estulin and his book seperately.

I don't know what I am going to find, but as with any research, "keep the wheat and leave the chaff" are still words to live by.

With regard to the Bilderbergers in general, I think it is especially interesting to look at its pedigree beginning with the "founding fathers" of the Bilderbergers that include Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands and the Rockefellers.

Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands, who joined the Nazi Party and was a member of the elite SS - supposedly "for the sake of expediency," - also went to work at a Paris branch of I.G. Farben for a man with whom he was later involved in the Lockheed bribery scandal.

IMHO, this speaks volumes about the potential for corruption in high places on the part of those who use political power for the sake of their own self-gratification as opposed to those who govern for the benefit of those who are governed.

A similar scandal would be the relatively recent Airbus/EADS insider trading scandal involving Noel Forgeard who was a creature of Jacques Chirac.

Of course The I.G. Farben - Standard Oil ties are a matter of historical fact.

So are Paul N. Temple's ties to Standard Oil and the fact that he did a stint for a branch of Standard Oil ( Exxon) in Spain.

Interesting also is the fact that Daniel Estulin is reportedly a political commentator who lives in Madrid.

I think it would be interesting to find out where Estulin stands in relation to Javier Solana and Spanish Prime Minister Jose well as King Juan Carlos.

Here are some sample pages from Daniel Estulin's book.
Not sure I would believe the WHO:

This is a pdf file from the Gulf War Vets Assoc. worth reading:

For those of you who believe in population control and don't believe one of the main delivery systems of this Orwellian control are vaccines, think again:

Environmental medicine which treats these kind of syndromes is not covered by insurance companies..

Despite the fact that today, it is widely recognized that most cancers, neurological syndromes and many other illnesses have at least in part an environmental component, the medical and insurance industries do not reimburse or develop treatments aimed at addressing root causes of illness, but prefer to continue to develop and reimburse a host of toxic treatments that usually have a list of side effects longer than the illness that they are supposed to treat.

Developing treatments which address root cause and cure or prevent illness tends to be less profitable, and will do nothing to reduce the population.

Constance, thanks for the heads up on Jim Tucker, I had no idea of his background. I can't believe the degree to which the wheat and chaff are tangled and interwoven...we are in days of such great deception!

Susanna, thanks for the info on crop circles in the last thread, I appreciate it ;-)
Refresh your pages, s'il vous plaisez, for the newest addition.


To Anonymous 6:49:

In my opinion, HIGHLY UNLIKELY. I saw enough of Mr. Van Brunn's internet material and his confederates to suspect he was most capable of this. Also, the interviewed witnesses appeared credible to me.

I was not suggesting that the guy didn't go into the museum to inflict damage. I just meant that the guard may have been shot by another employee. But if that's so that information would be kept hush-hush because it would not help the STATE should it be the case that one State employee shot another in the exchange of fire.
Arabs are threatening a new intifada based on Netanyahu's speech:

It gets messier by the minute.

One more interesting piece of all this, is that Ahmedinejad "won" the Iranian election. Lots of question marks there, but the fact that he won over a more "moderate" Iranian, gives Israel additional reason to cry about security issues. In fact, all of Europe and Middle East should be concerned about Iran having nuclear weapons, but it seems that they want to talk to a government that has a raving lunatic in power.. The elephant in the living room is Russia, who no one really wants to talk about.

Of course Russia is supplying Iran, and Iran is supplying Syria, Hizb'allah and Hamas, so Israel's security concerns are more than legitimate. Recently Morocco cut off diplomatic relations with Iran, so a Muslim country kicked Iranian diplomats out, but the US wants to "talk" to Iran.. Go figure.

Does anyone ever get the feeling that the lunatics are running the asylum?

From a prophetic point of view, the nations that are the biggest source of concern for Israel seem to line up with prophecies in Ezekiel 38-39, so many pieces seem to be falling into place, but we will have to wait and see how all of this unfolds.

EU has had some tense moments with the Russians over the past couple of years and is not in a good position, since they are dependent on Russia for their gas supply. The EU policy of pacifying everyone has leaves them quite vulnerable to the Arab nations and Russia. The EU seems to be banking on its economic influence in the Mideast Peace process ( and perhaps some military eventually too) but until there is an EU Constitution of sorts, the EU is still somewhat limited..

A US submitted to the EU agenda, with Islamic nations controlling through their oil wealth could be interpreted as clay and iron...anyone want to speculate on that?

I'm thinking back to Obama's address at the Brandenburg Gate, and I think that was much more than just symbolic...He was speaking code.

Just some rambling thoughts about the current situation which is getting more interesting by the minute..

Is Obama a Prince Hall Freemason ?
He couldn't be any other kind of Freemason
since Freemasonry is and always was
a thoroughly racist organization which
only let the Prince Hall Lodge begin
because they couldn't keep their
racism a secret any longer.

Why any African American would
want to become a Freemason beats
me. It's like African Americans who
would want to be in the KKK...
It makes for a funny skit on a
comedy show, but in fact there
are some very well known Black
folks in the Prince Hall Lodge.
Go figure.
But it would explain Mr Obama's
eagerness to see America fall to
the New World Order, which is, after
all, a Freemason idea and a
Freemason term.
Has anyone seen this:

Florida parish defaced with swastikas

A parish in the Diocese of Orlando has been defaced with swastikas, the number 666, and the words “lies” and “Jesus sunbeam.” Our Lady of Grace Catholic Church is located in Palm Bay.
Benjamin Creme/Share International Press Release

Hey - looks like Creme's star isn't really a star but is instead a 'star' made up of 4 UFOs!!!!!

For more daft replies on Creme's site about the 'star' (note it's now in inverted commas) ... scroll down to 'Letters'.

June 15, 2009, 4:18 PM
Obama's losing streak and Israel

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's speech Sunday evening at Bar-Ilan University had one goal: To get US President Barack Obama off of Israel's back.

Netanyahu's speech was an eloquent, rational and at times impassioned defense of Israel. For Israeli ears, after years of former prime minister Ehud Olmert's and former foreign minister Tzipi Livni's continuous assaults on Israeli rights, and their strident defenses of capitulation to the Palestinians and the Syrians, Netanyahu's address was a breath of fresh air. But it is hard to see how it could have possibly had any lasting impact on Obama or his advisers.

To be moved by rational argument, a person has to be open to rational discourse. And what we have witnessed over the past week with the Obama administration's reactions to both North Korea's nuclear brinksmanship and Iran's sham elections is that its foreign policy is not informed by rationality but by the president's morally relative, post-modern ideology. In this anti-intellectual and anti-rational climate, Netanyahu's speech has little chance of making a lasting impact on the White House.

Continued here:
Up until about one hundred and fifty years ago the Church believed and insisted that Matthew was the first Gospel written because unlike Mark, it had
a beginning and ending. Now there is near unanimous agreement among
Christian Bible scholars that Mark was the first Gospel written.

Today there is a consensus among modern CHRISTIAN Bible scholars that Mark did not know Jesus (The Interpreter's Commentary On The Bible, page 644). Mark was a missionary companion of Peter and Paul and wrote his Gospel in Rome a minimum of 35 years after the events described. It is
generally accepted that Mark was written around 70 C.E. If Mark actually knew Jesus then wouldn't he have written his Gospel shortly after Jesus' death when his memory of actual events and sayings would have been much better? Why wait 35 years to try and provide credible testimony that you believe that someone that you knew was divine?

"Mark" is a Roman name, not a Hebrew name. The Gospel of Mark
represented a transition of Christianity from it's Jewish oriented beginnings in Israel, where Jesus was thought of by his Jewish followers as the
prophesied Messiah, to a new base in Rome where his Pagan followers
thought of him as divine.

Mark 1:1 starts out "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God." Some ancient manuscripts, probably in the hands of the Jewish Christians, do not have "the Son of God". The NIV has it as a footnote. This reflects the conflict at the very start of the first Gospel between the Jewish and pagan Christians over the divinity of Jesus and the willingness of each side to edit what was previously written to support their theology.

Mark 1:2 continues "It is written in Isaiah the prophet: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way.' But it's not Isaiah but rather Malachi 3:1 that says "Behold, I am sending My messenger to clear the way before Me --." Matthew incorporated most of Mark in his
Gospel (Many of the stories in Mark are simply copied word for word in Matthew.) but he corrected what he could see were obvious errors. Matthew 11:10 "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you." No mention by Matthew that this quote is from Isaiah. If you are Jewish, Joyce, and knowledgeable regarding the Tanakh, how can you take the Gospels seriously when the first sentence of the Gospels (Mark) reflects a disagreement about something as important as Jesus' divinity and the next sentence contains an obvious attribution error?



Reading through Mark you can see that it is not written in the first person and that the author makes no claim that he knew Jesus. There are two very strange things about Mark, especially, considering that it is the first Gospel.

First, there is no mention of the first thirty years of Jesus' life. Where was he born; who was his father; what tribe was he from; what was his education;
was he married? did he have children? It would seem that not only did Mark not know Jesus, he didn't even know that much about him.

Secondly, seeing as Israel was brutalized and controlled by Rome, the dominant world power of Jesus' time, why is there next to no mention of Rome or any Romans in Mark's Gospel? It only makes sense when you realize that Mark wrote and preached his Gospel in Rome and was primarily concerned about making his Gospel acceptable to the Romans.

Mark 8:31 "He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again." No mention
of any Roman involvement in Jesus' prediction of his death!

Mark 10:33 "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the GENTILES, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him and kill
him." Mark is careful to say "Gentiles" (or "pagans") and not "Romans".

Mark 12:17 (Perhaps the most profound statement in all of the Gospels) "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." Beautiful: the idea of separation of Church and State and the reason that Christianity became the dominant religion first of Rome and then of the
western civilized world. The perfect religion for Rome's future! Roman Christians would leave politics to the wealthy and the military and future
conquests of Rome would only have to change their religion and not
their nationality because all that mattered according to Christianity was a belief in Jesus.

Note that Mark, unlike Matthew, does not say "No one can serve two masters." (The author of Matthew had the luxury of living in Syria, a long way from Mark's Rome).

Mark 13:14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation'
standing where it does not belong-let the reader understand-". The
quote is from Daniel 99:27 but Mark is referring to the Roman destruction of the Temple yet he still won't mention the Romans by name.

Mark 14:43 "With him was a crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent
from the chief priests, the teachers of the law, and the elders." According to Mark, no Romans were involved in Jesus' arrest. Now look at John
18:12 "Then the detachment of soldiers with it's commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus."

Mark 15:1 "They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to
Pilate." No mention that Pilate is the Roman Governor! Check out
Matthew 27:2 "They bound him, led him away and handed him over to
Pilate, the GOVERNOR." Let's look at Pilate for a moment, the real hero of the Gospels. He's the real authority and he has God put to death (how exactly do you kill God anyway?). Yet all four Gospels portray him as innocent of Jesus' death. Now that's a tough act to follow.

Mark finally refers to "soldiers" in Chapter 15:16f abusing Jesus. But soldiers don't have to be Roman, do they? And, there is no mention of any leader of the soldiers participating. In Mark 15:39, Mark finally makes his first reference to something Roman "And when the CENTURION, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!"

So according to Mark a Roman was the first to recognize that Jesus was divine which was sure to make his Gospel a hit in Rome.

Get it?
This is a big heads up. If you remember the site on the World Commission for Consciousness and Global Spiritual was static for a while. Well it isn't any more. You have to click on the globe right away or it won't open:

From Ashkok Gangadean's site you link to it and Ashkok's site promotes openly Lucis Trust's, Vision Project and Theosophy:

While the World Commission on Global Consciousness and Spirituality is still not fully functional, there has clearly been some work on the site to update it since I looked at it a while back, so we should keep watching for further updates.

On Awakening Mind, there is a link to teach kids Theosophy through fairy tales.. sad and scary.

I guess you haven't read the Dr. Lindsey, who translated the Gospel of Mark back into Hebrew.. He worked with Orthodox Jewish scholars in Israel on this project.

The Greek syntax of Mark is not good Greek at all, but it translates into very good Hebrew, so so much for your theory. The translators preserved the Hebrew order which makes for not so good Greek.

He concluded that the undertext was Hebrew. As you might know 200 years before Yeshua, the Tanach was translated into Greek too, because a large part of the Jewish world in the diaspora was Greek-speaking.

The primary language of Yeshua and His disciples was Hebrew, a bit of Aramaic. There was a tradition, as you well know of Oral preservation, so that the Gospels would eventually be translated into Greek, but it's a Greek that is filled with hebraisms and translates better back to Hebrew than it does Greek.

Today because of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls we know much more about that period of history..

So not ALL scholars agree on the order...of the synoptic gospels. I beg to differ with you.

Len continues to try and chip away at Christianity - his despise for Christianity and the Lord Jesus Christ is evident - even the new testiment; despite claims to the contrary.
Is this a divide and conquer?
Or just the dialectic process to try and create doubt?
Len has the same issue that Saul of Tarsus had - a hardened heart, a stiff neck and scales over his eyes.
No one comes to the Father unless called - I find it amazing how Len contiues to trya and find an avenue for his dis-information campaign.
The facts are; Jesus Christ died on the cross - rose on the 3rd day and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Having you believe it or not does not make it "less true"
Can you - or any of the Rabbi's you loving quote make sense out of that one?

The Lord Jesus Christ is coming back - and boy will Len (amonand others) be surprised.
Any Christian who reads the Bible
would have to defend Judaism and
Jews tooth and nail. Why? Because God
tells us to. Because the Bible says
in no uncertain terms that we are
not to curse the children of Jacob
unless we want a curse on ourselves.
On the contrary if we want a blessing
on ourselves, we could start by
blessing the children of Jacob,
whom God loves. Bless them just
as God blesses us despite all our
rebellion and sin.
Pray for the peace of Jeruslem.
It's that simple.

So, most of us do just that,
and have done just that through
history, imposters and liars
not withstanding.

But it's an interesting dynamic:
when we see how so many Jews,
like Len, feel about Jesus; the
deep, skin-crawling hatred
that they have for Jesus, it's
a real odd situation, but it's
in God's hands and HE will
fix it, not us. He will get the
glory, not us.
It's about God, who makes
scales fall off of long blinded eyes.
Christians for their part have
enough flaws, hypocracies and
besetting sins
to keep them busy without
thinking that they need to
defend the Creator of the
If someone would rather follow
the Talmud, which has no
veracity at all; which was
orally transmitted for centuries
before it was ever printed, which
was forbidden to be translated
into other languages, (just like the
Q'ran), then that's their business.
These are "secret" books, for a
secret society and we goyem are
not allowed.

"I'd rather be a doorman in the house
of the Lord that to live sumptuously
in the house of wickedness."
Dear Joyce,

You are doing your usual dissembling. There are 25 hypotheses out there on the chronological order of Synoptic Gospel preparation. Here is a site that is devoted to sorting them out and that lists them all with the beginning reproduced below:

Synoptic Problem Website
by Stephen C. Carlson

Overview of Proposed Solutions
Owing to the complexity of the problem, many solutions have been proposed. The following is a brief explanation of some of the most important:

Two-Source Hypothesis [Mark-Q model]

The dominant source theory among scholars today, the Two-Source Hypothesis (2SH) holds that Mark was the first gospel to be composed and became the primary narrative source for Matthew and Luke (Markan priority). In addition, Matthew and Luke independently supplemented their Markan material with sayings of Jesus from a lost sayings collection, termed Q.

Wikipedia has adopted this view:

Gospel of Mark
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Gospel of Mark (Gk. τὸ εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Μᾶρκον, literally "the good news according to Mark") is the second of the four canonical gospels in the New Testament but is believed by most modern scholars to be the first gospel written, on which the other two synoptic gospels, Matthew and Luke, were partially based.[1] It was written anonymously[1] but has been traditionally ascribed to Mark the Evangelist (also known as John Mark), a cousin of Barnabas.[2]

You and Anon are making ad hominem attacks without discussing the substance of the quotes I set out. The quotes speak for themselves in a lot more than a circumstantial case; a lot, lot more than your flimsy comments on the Tanakh.

You talk about it but present no verses from Bibles to support your assertions. Where is the “Lindsey Bible?”

Anon says I am attacking Christianity but doesn't mind your supersessionist attacks on Judaism. I am merely quoting Scripture and letting the chips fall where they may. If you or anyone else can give a good reason why Mark studiously avoids mention of Rome I am all eyes.

Paul wrote: "-- we see how so many Jews, like Len, feel about Jesus; the deep, skin-crawling hatred
that they have for Jesus

Dear Paul,

Where did I say I hate Jesus? Not worshipping him is not the same as hating him. He was a good Jew and wwould fit right into the Jewish community today; the Orthodox community in fact. Paul is the foundeer of Christianity not Jesus. I do not hate Paul either.

My only purpose is defensive; to counter Joyce's prosyletizing by explaining why Jews do not worship Jesus.

You owe me an apology.

To Anon 7:46 AM

Surely you must have noticed that Joyce herself attacks Christianity as a distortion. She has her own "Biblical" religion.

“Jesus” by David Flusser

Below I am presenting a summary of the first two chapters of David Flusser’s widely acclaimed book, “Jesus. “

David Flusser was an Orthodox Jew who made a life career of studying Jesus. He was a Professor Emeritus at Hebrew University where he taught "Judaism in the Second Temple period" and early Christianity. He was a member of the Israel Academy of Science and Humanities. In 1980 he was awarded the Israel Prize in literature.

In this summary of the new 1998 edition I will emphasize things that are "off the beaten path." If you want to know more get the book . A newer posthumous 2006 edited version, “The Sage from Galilee,” has been published:

Prof. Flusser admired Jesus as a person. He wrote, "I personally identify myself with Jesus' Weltanschauung, both moral and political, and I believe that the content of his teachings and the approach he embraced have always had the potential to change our world and prevent the greatest part of evil and suffering. (Pg. 15)"

The book is not written from the Jewish point of view, but from a scholarly one.

Ch 1: Sources

"The only important Christian sources concerning Jesus are the four gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The rest of the NT tells us almost nothing about his life." (Page 19) The first three gospels are primarily historical while John is primarily theological. The first three present a faithful picture of his life as a Jew of his own time. This is about "the historical Jesus, not the kerygmatic Christ." His role, for Jewish Christians, was as a "miracle worker," teacher, prophet and messiah, rather than as the "risen lord of the kerygma."

"At an early date the emphasis began to change among the Hellenistic Christian congregations founded by the Greek Jews, and composed predominantly of [Gentiles]. In these congregations, redemption through the crucified and risen Christ became the heart of preaching. It is no accident that the writings originating in these communities - for example the letters of St Paul - scarcely mention the life and preaching of Jesus.

"It is [lucky] as far as our knowledge of Jesus is concerned, that the Synoptic Gospels were written fairly late - around 70 CE -- when the dynamic creativity within the Pauline congregations had diminished. For the most part this latter stratum of the synoptic tradition found its first expression in the redaction of the separate evangelists and was styled in Greek. If we examine this material with an unprejudiced mind, we learn … that it is concerned not with kerygmatic statements but with Christian platitudes. (Pages 20-21)"

Flusser concluded that the early non-extant documents composed by Jesus' disciples were composed by Jesus' disciples in Hebrew, were subsequently translated onto Greek, passed through various stages of redaction, and THEN were used by our three evangelists. (Page 21) They provide a more reliable picture of Jesus than is generally acknowledged.

Luke preserves, in comparison to Mark (and Matthew when depending on Mark), the original tradition. (Flusser contends that) Luke wrote before Mark. Mark then reworked the gospel material and unfavorably influenced Matthew who followed Mark's version closely. Matthew, when independent of Mark, frequently preserves the earlier sources of Jesus' life that lie behind Luke's gospel. Hence Luke and Matthew together provide the most authentic portrayal of Jesus' life and teachings.

The book does not set out to build a bridge between the Jesus of history and the Christian faith - merely to present Jesus directly to the reader.

Flusser's Jesus -- conhtinued

Chapter 2: Ancestry

The “virgin birth” is mentioned in both Matthew and Luke but nowhere else in the NT.

Both the Matthew and Luke genealogies purport to trace Jesus’ ancestry to King David to buttress their claims to his messianship in accordance with traditional Jewish belief that the Messiah will be a descendent of David. “In both these genealogies it is Joseph, not Mary, who is so descended. The most remarkable thing, moreover, is that Joseph’s genealogies are to be found in those same gospels, Matthew and Luke, that tell the story of the virgin birth. It would seem that neither of these evangelists sensed any tension between Jesus’ descent from David through Joseph, and Jesus’ conception without the aid of a human father. … the two genealogies agree only through David (diverging thereafter). The internal problems of both lists and their considerable differences leaves us with the impression that both … were constructed ad hoc, so to speak, in order to prove descent from David. (Page 25)”

With regard to Jesus’ birthplace both Matthew and Luke place it in Bethlehem, the city of David’s birth. Nevertheless there are important differences. Luke 2:4 says that “Jesus’ family traveled to Bethlehem only because of the census.” Before Jesus’ birth they lived in Nazareth to which they returned. “According to Matthew 2:23, however, the family resided in Bethlehem in Judea before Jesus’ birth and settled in Nazareth only after their return from Egypt. It would seem then that both the tradition that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, and the proof of his David ancestry, arose because many believed that the Messiah would be of David’s line and would, like David, be born in Bethlehem. This follows plainly from John 7:41-42. The passage tells of some who denied that Jesus was the Messiah, saying, ‘Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the scripture said that the Christ is descended from David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?’ John therefore knew neither that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem nor that he was descended from David. At the same time this incident shows how people demanded the fulfillment of these two conditions as legitimization of the messianic claim.” (Page 26)

“Historically, Jesus was a Galilean Jew who was probably born in Nazareth. Certainly that was where he lived for about 30 years until the time of his baptism by John [around 28 CE]. (Luke 3:23)” Based on the first three gospels it appears that his public ministry (period between his baptism and crucifixion) lasted no more than one year. According to John, it covered two or three years. “It has become fairly clear today that John, the theologian, had little intention of being a historian, and thus it would be unwise to accept his chronology or his geographical framework without careful examination.” (Page 27)

“At the same time we have to ask whether even the first three Gospels intended to provide a historical and geographical scheme, or to what extent it was conditioned by the theological presuppositions of the individual evangelists. (Page 28)”

Jesus’ Jewish education was incomparably superior to Paul’s. (Page 30)

There were internal emotion-laden tensions within Jesus’ family. Also it is not clear that he understood his divinely appointed task. (Pages 33-36) His family regarded his mission as a dangerous illusion and they did not “believe” in him till after his death.
You go Paul! Well said!
There's an article about Lindsey on the same site that you provided a link for:

He may not be in the "majority", but he may just be right.. There is a heavy Semitic influence on the text and so it was probably translated for the audience.

Now as for your accusations about Mark not speaking against the Romans or specifically using the word Roman in his text.. , in my translation that I am looking at the word Rome is added by the translators in all the Gospels and was not in any of the original text until we get to the book of Acts where the actual city of Rome is mentioned. It is never used in the original text as an adjective though.

The word used to refer to the Romans is cohert which comes from this Greek word:

4686. spei√ra; speira (on the accent cf. Buttmann, 11; Chandler sec. 161; Tdf. Proleg., p. 102), heœ, genitive speireœs (Acts 10:1; 21:31; 27:1; see (Tdf. Proleg., p. 117; WH’s Appendix, p. 156; and) machaira, at the beginning) (cognate with spuris (which see)); a. Latin spira; anything rolled into a circle or ball, anything wound, rolled up, folded together. b. a military cohort (Polybius 11, 23, 1 treis speiras. touto de kaleitai to suntagma toœn pezoœn para Roœmaiois koœrtis), i.e. the tenth part of a legion (i.e. about 600 men (i.e. legionaries), or if auxilialies either 500 or 1,000; cf. Marquardt, Römisch. Alterth. III. ii., p. 371. But surely touto to suntagma in the quotation comprehends the treis speira; hence, Polybius here makes a speira equal to a maniple, cf. 2, 3, 2; 6, 24, 5; cf. Zonaras, Lex., p. 1664, speira suntagma diakosioœn androœn. On the other hand, the later Greek writings almost uniformly employ speira as the representative of cohors (Smith, Dict. of Antiq., edition 2, under the word exercitus, p. 500); and the rise of chiliarchos (which was the equivalent of tribunus, the commander of a cohort) in connection with it (John 18:12; Acts 21:31), together with the uniform rendering of the word by cohors in the Latin versions, warrants the margin cohort uniformly added in R.V. to the rendering band): Matt. 27:27; Mark 15:16; Acts 10:1; 21:31; 27:1, and often in Josephus; a maniple, or the thirtieth part of a legion, often so in Polybius ((see above)); any band, company, or detachment, of soldiers (2 Macc. 8:23; Jud. 14:11): John 18:3,12.* I guess the disciples of Yeshua didn't feel the need to elaborate. It was understood that this expression referred to the Romans.


Your hypothesis about Mark doesn't hold together because you are basing it on faulty assumptions.

There are all kinds of Bible difficulties which we can point to, including in Tanach, but we are on a blog to discuss the New Age, not is the Bible true.

Most of the people on this blog accept that the Scriptures are true by faith, not because they are scholars, and I don't see the need to go into long scholarly debates. It's not an apologetics site here.

I do study Scripture, but when I came to know Yeshua it was truly through a miracle in my life, not because I was "born into the faith" or because I did theological studies. After I had that relationship with Him, I began to really study the Scriptures and find them to be quite coherent, even with some of the "difficulties" and errors in translation, which we all have to deal with .. Even though I am a Jew by descent, I don't have all of the hang ups about what traditional Judaism says, nor am I hung up about what traditional Christianity says. I find many things in both traditions that I have serious questions about, but having said that, I think I can understand how these two streams developed.

My belief is that the Jews will ( in increasing number) come to know Yeshua and Christians ( in increasing number) will go back to Torah. The Lord allowed this schism to take place for His reasons, but personally, I believe it's temporary.

I study, and pray and allow Abba to lead me in His Word.. He has given me His Ruach and the Scripture says the Ruach will lead us in all truth. Studying the Scriptures is a lifelong, inexhaustable undertaking and I learn every day. I don't close my mind to what Abba wants to teach me, but I also know what I know, by faith and by experience.

Yeshua has transformed my life in ways that you can't imagine.. Not only has He done this for me, but for many who I know and love. If I began to tell you the stories, it would fill pages and pages of blogs.. so..

Shalom in Yeshua,

Dear Joyce,

Please note this paragraph in the wikioedia web sie on Lindsey (who was a student of Flusser):

Despite the surprising claim that Mark depends partially on Luke, Lindsey emphasizes that his solution to the Synoptic Problem agrees substantially with the majority who hypothesize Markan Priority, since this Proto-Narrative is identical with "Ur-Markus", and that all three synoptic gospels - Luke, Mark, and Matthew - depend directly on the Proto-Narrative.

or (if the above doesn's work):

Think Oprah might be
around there somewhere?
Is that an advertisement ?
Is Drudge on board too
apparently ?

If I thought I was going to
be around long enough I'd put
Mr Flussers' writings on my
list of to-read; but there is
of course no such time left
for the miles and miles
of anti christian revisionism
(or not) that floods the
bookshelves these days.
The man sounds like a real scholar,
Maybe I should just chuck my whole
belief system and disregard
a lifetime of miraculous blessings
that I've personally enjoyed
and all the prayers that have
been answered and all the
trouble that has been "fixed"
for all these people I
know. Maybe I should forget
about the way Jesus saved
me from a world of trouble
which was way over my head.
I praise and thank Him every
day. He is the living God whom
all these people love and testify
about. Jesus and God are One.

I know, it's all just my mind
playing tricks on me.

Len, your statement that both gospels' (Luke, Matthew) genealogy of Jesus runs through Joseph is not true as I have learned it. I have learned from several Bible teachers, but most especially Chuck Missler, that the genealogy of Luke traces through His mother Mary. As you say, after David the two genealogies divide.

Mary was the daughter of Helias, or Heli, descended from David but not listed in Matthew, which traces the descent of Mary's husband Joseph from David.

Missler said that both genealogies were given because the Jews expected the genealogy to descend through the legal earthly father, Joseph, even though Genesis calls the redemptor the "seed of the woman", an unusual concept in a early patriarchal culture.

Missler said that Luke, a physician, wrote his gospel sticking to the human life of Jesus, who was born the seed of a woman, Mary, and therefore his genealogy traces back through Mary's earthly father, Heli.


Dear Mariel,

If you would show me the verse that says that Luke's genealogy is for Mary I would appreciate it.

Verse 3:23-24 specifically says that JESUS was son of Joseph, son of Heli.

Where did I go wrong?

Peace and blessing,
Paul said: “Maybe I should just chuck my whole
belief system and disregard
a lifetime of miraculous blessings
that I've personally enjoyed
and all the prayers that have
been answered and all the
trouble that has been "fixed"
for all these people I
know. Maybe I should forget
about the way Jesus saved
me from a world of trouble
which was way over my head.
I praise and thank Him every
day. He is the living God whom
all these people love and testify
about. Jesus and God are One.”

Amen to this personal (subjective) aspect of “that relationship with Jesus” that we always want to encourage one another with, and you have encouraged me.
“A three fold cord is not quickly broken” testifies that we have much more than that however; we have God’s Word, a great part of that is prophecy i.e. Psalms 22, Ias. 53 and hundreds of others; we have: “That which was from the beginning which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled of the Word of life. . .” We have black and white and the general reliability of our common consensus physical reality, but we also have the aesthetic apex of beauty (“To behold the beauty of the LORD”) in philosophy.
“Come let us reason together. . . Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you can tell? “There is more than one fulfillment of this Proverb, for the Apostle Paul says: “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all the heavens that he might fill all things.”
Getting back to our experiences, the Apostle Paul also had them, he begins from the forth chapter of Ephesians that these things he writes about are by “REVELATION.” The
Damascus road experience was the beginning of a massive display of God’s grace; I believe that according to God’s “wisdom and prudence” anyone may call out, nay cry out, and God will hear. “I cried unto the LORD with my voice and he heard me from is Holy Hill.”
Paul thanks for the testimony.
I have my own, but I’ll save that for another time.
Genealogy of Jesus, to Len: in Luke 3:21 and following. "Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi," etc. This is from New King James Bible. The footnote says "Concerning the two Gospel genealogies of Jesus, Matthew traces the lineage of Jesus from Abraham through Joseph (Matt. l:l016) although he is careful to point out that Joseph was not Jesus' actual father (Matt 1: 18).

Luke refers to Joseph being the "supposed" father of Jesus. He lists Heli as Joseph's father, although Heli was actually Mary's father. It was explained by Missler that when a man's own father was deceased, he could and usually was adopted by his father-in-law, especially if there were no other sons of that father-in-law. So Missler believes Heli adopted Joseph and thus he was his legal father, as well as Mary's father.

This may not set right with you, Len. I am just telling you what I was told by the Bible scholars I studied with.

I had an "uncle" Heli who lived in Scotland in the 12th century, a canon of the cathedral of Glasgow, a contributor to the abbeys of Paisley and Melrose, the "owner" of the living of Mearns, which he donated to Paisley. I know from a lot of genealogical sleuthing that these things can get very mixed up, but if you just stare at the material enough years, through enough sources, you finally figure it out, and by then these medieval people become "real" to you. Just a footnote as to why I remember a name not often mentioned, Heli, the father of Mary, after whom my great uncle of the 12th century was named.

Thank You Paul and IsitILORD. The Lord has greatly encouraged me today
through you both.

"...exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."


Paul wrote: "Maybe I should just chuck my whole
belief system and disregard
a lifetime of miraculous blessings
that I've personally enjoyed
and all the prayers that have
been answered and all the
trouble that has been "fixed"
for all these people I
know. Maybe I should forget
about the way Jesus saved
me from a world of trouble
which was way over my head."

Dear Paul,

Heaven forbid! Perhaps pluralism is God's will.

"For, from the rising of the sun until its setting, My Name is great among the nations, and everywhere offerings are burnt and offered up to My Name; yea, a pure oblation, for My Name is great among the nations, says the Lord of Hosts. (Mal 1:11)

In the 12th century Maimonides wrote the following in his famous "Mishneh Torah" -- "Book of Kings:"

"Even of [Jesus] who imagined that he was the Messiah but was put to death ... , Daniel had prophesied, as it is said, ‘Also the children of the violent among your people shall lift themselves up to establish the vision; but they shall stumble (Dan. 9:14).’ Has there ever been a greater stumbling than this? For all the Prophets declared that the Messiah will be the deliverer of Israel..., gathering their dispersed and confirming their commandments. But [Jesus' advent] caused Israel to perish by the sword, their remnant to be dispersed and humbled. He induced them to change the Torah and led the greater part of the world to err and serve another besides [the Father].

“No human however is capable of fathoming the designs of the Creator for their ways are not His ways, neither are His thoughts their thoughts. All these events (relating to Jesus), and even those relating to [Muhammed], were nothing but a way of preparing the way for the King Messiah. It will reform the whole world to worship God with one accord; as it is said, ‘For then I will make the peoples pure of language, so that they all invoke the Lord by name to serve Him with one accord (Zeph. 3:9).’ How can this be? The entire world has been filled with the doctrine of the Messiah, the Torah and the Mitzvot (Commandments). The doctrines have been propagated to the distant isles and among many peoples, uncircumcised of heart and flesh. They discuss these subjects which contradict the Torah. Some declare that these Commandments were true, but are abrogated presently and have lost their force; while others assert that they are of mystical significance and have no simple meaning -- that the King has already arrived and revealed their hidden significance. But when the (true) king Messiah arrives and succeeds, is exalted and lifted up, they will immediately recant and acknowledge the falsity of their assertions.”

In the Eighteenth Century, Jacob Emden was even more emphatic. “The founder of Christianity conferred a double blessing on the world: on the one hand he strengthened the Torah of Moses, and emphasized its eternal applicability. On the other hand he bestowed favor on the pagans by removing idolatry from them, imposing upon them strict moral obligation. There are many Christians of high quality and excellent morals. Would that all Christians live in conformity with their precepts! They are not required, like Jews, to observe the law of Moses, nor do they sin in associating other beings with God in worshiping a triune God. They will receive a reward from God for having propagated a belief in Him among nations that never had heard His Name: for He looks into the heart.”

Peace and blessing,

IsItLord wrote: "-- we have God’s Word, a great part of that is prophecy i.e. Psalms 22, Ias. 53 and hundreds of others; we have: “That which was from the beginning which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled of the Word of life. . .” --- “Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you can tell? "

Be blessed in your beliefs. I just want to let you know that these are all Jewish writings that we affirm without apology. There are Jewish translations of them and Jewish interpretations. If you want to khnow what they are I will be glad to oblige publicly or privately.

Peace and blessing,
Susanna said...
However, the validity of my faith does not depend upon the personal sanctity of those who I believe have been charged with the mission of preaching and teaching it. My faith depends upon the ONE LORD Jesus Christ Who has revealed it! It is Jesus Christ Who is the "WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE."
John 14:6
After this statement she quotes the NICENE CREED:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I don’t know if you get it, but I’ll let Jesus say it: Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou has hid these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes.
I believe that the scriptures speak for themselves and that they are Spiritually discerned; I believe that intellectual elitism can be a tool of Mephistopheles.
Len, you can have all the theological fun you want wrestling with Joyce, my comments were addressed to Paul as an encouragement to him, but since you saw an opportunity to parade your vast knowledge, don’t forget that Paul’s comments were fundamentally a reflection on his “I know that I know” because Christ Jesus is real to him, and that is true for me; it goes without saying that this is not true for you, I pray that it will be.
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