Sunday, October 26, 2008

Errors in Sorry You Missed the Rapture Youtube and God Tube

There are some detracting errors in the "Sorry You Missed the Rapture" Youtube and Godtube video presentations. As the message is imporant, the facts need to be "spot-on" to maintain credibility. These are the errors:

1. Section 666 creating Solana's CFSP and Secretary General of the Council of the European Union (Council of Ministers) was a EUROPEAN UNION "Europa" document -- not a Western European Union one.

2. Recommendation 666 was drafted by Solana (or his staff at his direction) but it did not become law for Europe itself until the Nice, France Council of December 2000.

The message is important and the 7 year Treaty which could well be the prophesied one is well in place since January 1, 2007 and is up for midterm review in mid 2010. The message should not be easily disregarded.

the 7 year covenant mentioned in Daniel and book of revelation refers to a 360 years Jewish calender and not 365 gregarian calender.
When the bible mentions 6 days creation, it is literal 6 days, in the same way when the bible mention 2520 or 1260 days it is literally 2520 or 1260 days.
Drudge Report has link to audio of Obama in 2001 talking about his opinions regarding redistribution of wealth. They are reporting millions of hits.

This 7 year treaty that you say came into effect Jan 1 2007. What is its exact name, and where can I find documentation?

To Terry (and others):

The Treaty Name is:

European Neighbourhood Policy Treaty of Association

Here is a tinyurl link where you can get more information. The first went into effect in 2000. The RECONFIRMED and STRENGTHENED one went into effect on January 1, 2007 for a 7 year period which is set for midterm review in mid 2010.
Matthew:24- No one knows the day or coming of the Son of Man-only the Father.

Therefore rapture must be pre-trib. Mid-trib and post trib would know a date.

Anonymous 7:14 makes a valid point. Gregorian calender was not used until the 16th century.
Here is a copy of the 1st treaty which was the legal basis for the 7 year term confirmed and strengthened treaty:
Thanks. I'll look into it. Lot's of reading to do.
No one knows the day or hour is actually a direct pointing to Rosh Hashanah, the only Jewish Holiday where they have to have the announcing of it happen by two witnesses who in turn report the new moon, and thus the new year.
There is strong leaning in looking at Rosh Hashanah as to the possibility of the rapture. However, it doesn't mean per say that it is rapture. Rosh Hashanah from what I examined is about the first trumpet and alarms being sounded and time set for folks to repent up till the day of atonement.
Good info! Compelling to hear the words from his own lips.
Some excerpts from the audio/video:
"There was a tendancy to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual COALITIONS OF POWER through which you bring about REDISTRIBUTIVE change and we still suffer from that."
"This is not a discussion about whether or not redistribution of wealth is right or wrong, this is a discussion about how best to do it."
Fox Cable News Feed-
Obama:"It's not that I want to punish your success, it's just that I want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance at success too. I think when you spread the wealth around, that it's good for everybody."

Dear Terry,

The website:

to which Constance also has a link on her main webpage, is another excellent resource for all things related to the ENP.


On another note, according to the following article, a "large majority" of Icelanders now want to join EU and eurozone after their crisis as the krona "has shed more than half its value since January."

The Single Euro Payments Area (SEPA) is due to go cashless in 2010 (mid-point of the 7-year ENPI), a very possible precursor (or not) to the Mark of the Beast.

To Anon 7:14AM, read the following verses:

Dan 12:11-12 And from the time the regular sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that desolates set up, a thousand, two hundred and ninety days shall occur. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand, three hundred and thirty five days.

It looks to me that there is some extra days added to make up for Gregorian calender that is in use today. God knew that the calender timing would change. There is thus 30 to 75 days extra added to the second half of the week. I am still waiting for an explanation for the extra days, and this sound the most likely to me.
Constance - do you think it makes any difference if the UK don't go any deeper into the EU than they already are?

We're getting closer to a General Election over here which usually opens up the pro/anti Europe debate. Lord Tebbit is speaking on such tonight.

anonymous 7:14,
I can only think that you are here to be subversive.
There are of course various anonymouses who comment here but your statement is transparently an attempt to make everyone else here look like fools.
You may not know it yet because you're a victim of brainwashing, but there are a whole lot of educated, and even erudite, Christians, and there always have been, as long as there's been a Christianity. Right now there are Christians in every discipline of science, literature, medicine, and the arts.
How could the seven days of creation in the book of Genesis be a literal 24 hour days, when, on the first day, when he created light ( and darkness ) ,
there wasn't even an earth to define a 24 hour day?
If you're telling me that the Word of God is true, I agree with you. If you're saying that The Bible is God's infallable Word I agree with you. The problem is and always has been mankind's faulty interpretations of God's perfect word.
The first day of creation is most likely a time span of something like six billion years.
The second day would be something less but still not based on twenty four of our hours.

I'm writing this note to you, anonymous, because I'm pretty sure you are the same one who likes to occasionally tear into Mrs Cumby and put your words in her mouth.
I'm a person who has an appreciation for how a wedge can topple a big tree, or even split the whole thing down the middle.
If you are attempting to drive a wedge, you're
not as smart as you think you are.
If you're just overly simplistic about the Genesis account, which sums up the creation of the universe all the way to the creation of the first creature on earth to be called "man", according to God, then I say keep studying and I apologize, but the tone of your note is not humble but aggressive,
and I'm guessing New Age.
Paul & a Literal 6 day creation-
I don't want to debate 6 day creation on this forum. If you want to find an answer to your question though, I suggest that you check out
This is a New York Times story from January 2007 on Obama's Harvard years. This was a pro-Obama article in general. However, many times in the article it states that Obama delibrately wouldn't give his opinion, but would leave everybody thinking he agreed with them. Another person quoted said that when Obama spoke, it was style over substance. Manipulation rather than honesty seems to have remained his style. People still buy from the medicine men selling water in pretty bottles.

Also, he keeps talking about bringing everyone together. Close to half the people are opposed to what he stands for and aren't taken in by his duplicity. Just what is he going to do with them? Based on his campaign's actions, there is a lot of vindictiveness in his community of followers.
"Police departments in cities across the country are beefing up their ranks for Election Day, preparing for possible civil unrest and riots after the historic presidential contest."
This essay from the African Press warns of the same thing. It appears that Odinga ran under the banner of change, and when he lost there was a bloodbath until the government was changed to a coalition government. Read to see the parallels between Odinga's campaign and Obama's campaign and keep in mind they are buddies.

Could the rise in drug-resistent infections mean anything? Here's an article from Yahoo:

This really has nothing to do with the New Age Movement or Javier Solana, but could it be just another sign.
EXTREMELY DISTURBING: Skinhead plot to kill 88, decapitate 14 and assassinate Barack Obama. It sounds like it was almost right out of THE TURNER DIARIES, one of the most vicious manifestations of the New Age Aryan philosophies I have ever read. I have long said that the "New Age" might be a temporarily advantageous place to be if one were a blonde haired, blue-eyed pagan. If one were anything else, they were in deep trouble in the ultimatie New Age aganda. Willis Carto and company were encouraging the skinhead culture. What amazed me during the 1990s when we were fighting the Afrocentric education battles in Detroit was that those purveying that were indeed teamed up with the "Turner Diary" type white separatists movements -- they haed grand plans with an alliance between Willis Carto and Louis Farrakhan to divide the country 3 ways: "White Mountain Republic" (Ecotopia to the more environmentally minded New Agers); Republic of New Africa (Chicago to be renamed "New Mecca") and Balance to Whites in the East with exception of New York, New England corridor to be renamed ZOG (Zionist Occulpational Government) and New York to be renamed "Hymie Town") -- a very frightening phenomenon!

Personally, I unapologetically believe God could have created the world in six seconds, if he wanted to -- the six days of creation with the evening and the morning being the first day makes much more sense to me than Benjamin Creme and his Lucifer creating the world in 18 1/2 billion years -- but then, that's understandable -- their "God" Lucifer is far slower -- takes him much more time to get things done.

That's why prophecy is such an important indicator -- we aren't back there to see what happened, but we can verify scriptural integrity by obvious prophetic fulfillment.

According to Brown Driver Briggs, Halot and a number of other respected Hebrew lexicons, the Hebrew word for week in question in Daniel 9:27 can be days or years, but in this context it is considered to be a week of years. A Hebrew calendar is much more complicated that that because there are years that are shorter than 365 and leap years which are longer. Sometimes there are 13 months because the calendar is solar/lunar, so 360 days is not accurate, but 365 is not either, that's why it would be good for all of us to learn about the mo'ed ( God's appointed times) which will give greater insight into the return of Yeshua.

If we are watching the Gregorian calendar instead of the Feasts of the Eternal, we might miss some important points.. I agree with the poster Peacegiver who said that Rosh Hashanah or Yom T'ruah ( Feast of blowing) is the feast that requires "watching" to know the day and the hour.

I would not call these Jewish holidays because when we read the texts of Torah, there were aliens dwelling among Israel who were affected by these feasts too. Shabbat was for everyone. The servants and aliens were not supposed to work either. The Bible NEVER refers to them as Jewish feasts. They were for ALL Israel and those that want to dwell with Israel and follow the God of Israel, like Ruth the Moabite, we would be advised to listen to His voice too. This story teaches us what God expects of the attach themselves to Him and His people.

I am not saying by this, that the Jews have it all right. They are heavily influenced by Talmud, and it's important to be discerning. It is important to understand the hebraic thinking behind the Scriptures ( and I'm not talking Kabbalah either) since the Bible was primarily written by Hebrews. When we come at it with a Gentile mentality, we are bound to miss things. AFTER THE SPLIT of the kingdom and the Assyrian exile, the 10 tribes went into exile and still haven't returned, so Jews or the Southern Kingdom was the one who "guarded the Tree of Life" so to speak, although they did not always understand that the Tree of Life became flesh ( Yeshua). When we will see the two Houses of Israel become one there will be true Shalom. ( wholeness in Hebrew) God desires that we become one, but to be one we need both pieces of the puzzle, Yeshua and His Torah.

Look at this verse carefully:

Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who ckeep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

IT's BOTH, keeping of the commandments and holding to the testimony of Yeshua, not one or the other...

This is of utmost importance and please excuse me but the Christian world has missed this point because of their history, which most are unaware of. If you don't like what's going on in the Church, there's probably a reason...they have put aside the teachings or Torah of God..which God said HE would put on our hearts. That is the New Covenant!!

Jer. 31:31-33“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I btook them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But athis is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The New Covenant is with Israel!! If you don't see this read it again in Hebrews. God made His covenants with Israel and they are eternal covenants. The nations were once strangers but now they are brought near, by the blood of Yeshua:

Eph. 2:11-13 Therefore remember that formerly byou, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands — remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to bthe covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The nations have been brought into the "covenants" ( plural) including the 10 tribes who are now scattered in the nations, who are not JEWS, but are of the HOUSE of ISRAEL i.e. Northern Kingdom . Sure there was some crossing over, but Israel has become as "the sands of the sea" and when we see who is Israel, it will be bigger than the 15million will be enormous. God has not forgotten His promises and never will. When you read the Bible you MUST read this and remember this or you will think forever doesn't mean forever. It does!!

God NEVER told us to abandon His mo'ed. Yeshua was crucifed on a mo'ed, and He'll return on a mo'ed. If we "show up" during God's appointments, we are sure to be blessed, but we must first know what they are. The Jews ( Judah, Benjamin and Levy) are the only ones who preserved Torah and thus, these feasts, so if we want to learn about the feasts we must learn from the Jews and so today they are called Jewish feasts, but they did not start off that way..

Zech. 8:23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the 1nations will 2agrasp the 3garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

This verse is referring to the tzizits or fringes on a Jews garment, which represent the keeping of the commandments.

"in those days" is a direct reference to the "last days" which we are in right now. Jews are coming to know their Messiah in record numbers and as they are, they are explaining Torah in light of Yeshua...This is a prophetic move of God which the people on this blog, who are interested in prophecy should not miss.

Because we don't always understand context, we have assumed that God created a new religion called Christianity, but in reality, God doesn't create religions. He has always called us into relationship with Him. God did not create Judaism either. God gave Moses Torah and then He gave His Son. If we want to dwell with Him we must "listen to His voice".

Listening to His voice is very simple. Go back to Genesis and read the Bible ( with very good lexicons since most of our translations are biased) and read it as if He wrote all of it to you, because He did. Don't divide one part and call it "Old" because you will miss the bulk of prophecy and not understand your position as part of God's "called out assembly". I don't mean that you should "replace" Israel. I mean you should join yourselves to Israel, which entails keeping the appointments God gave to Israel, not the false appointments of Christmas and Easter...Sorry, I know they give warm fuzzies, but they are not going to prepare you to meet Him. God told us not to decorate trees...Read Jeremiah 10. He will forgive you if you did this in ignorance, but now you know, so you are no longer ignorant. We are to be a holy, set apart people which means we need to "come out of all the practices that are derived from Babylon. Read some history and you will find out that this is true, and Yeshua was NOT born on Dec 25, nor are we instructed to celebrate His birthday...probably because He wanted us to focus on His death and resurrection and return more than His birthday. Besides that Yeshua always existed...Yes, He came in the flesh to Tabernacle with us, probably during Feast of Tabernacles according to the best calculations..( Sukkot).

The point of Torah, is to teach God's people how to live. Following Torah never saved anyone, faith does. Our faith saves us, and then out of love for the one who saved us, we walk in obedience. That's all Paul was saying in his letters. We are not saved by circumcision.

What I am saying may be radical for many of you, but today many, many people all over the world are understanding this and I have met many of them. They are understanding these truths because God is revealing them, so we can continue in ignorance and be comfortable with our traditions, or we can hear God's voice in the days ahead. I submit to you, listening to His voice will be the most important thing you can do in the days we are living. His sheep know His voice.

Jews are coming to know their Messiah and Gentiles are coming to know Torah. When theses 2 things come together, you can be sure we are near the end. Within the Gentile nations are the lost sheep of the House of Israel who Yeshua said, He came to save. Does that exclude the nations? No!! Remember to get into the New Jerusalem you must pass through the gates that have the names of the Tribes of Israel according to the Book of Revelations.


Thanks so much for that post! I was exposed to that teaching last year in November and have been trying to get my head and heart around it ever since. God's ways are not Christian or Jewish--they are "olam"--old, ancient. Jeremiah 6:16, Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein."

I am preparing for my first trip to Israel. I will turn 50 four days after my return. It's close enough for me to say, "I'm spending my 'Jubilee' in Israel!" Yahoo!!!

Dear Yesnaspanishtown,

Have a blessed time in Israel!

If you can, go up on Temple Mt. and look across to Mt of Olives. Imagine what it will be like when Yeshua puts His feet down and everything splits in half. . Normally, you are allowed up only two times a day in the morning and in the afternoon, when the Muslims aren't praying. If a tour guide takes you, they'll know all of that, but you can ask a policeman the hours. They usually know.

When you go to the other side, Mt of Olives you can see the East Gate which has been sealed off. Careful with the taxi drivers. They'll try to not use meteres, unless you're renting a car there.

If you shop, make sure you bargain...walk out and they'll always offer you a better price..

There are my two cents...

That's a fabulous way to spend your 50th birthday!

As for my comments on the previous post, when we see ourselves the way, God sees us we will know how to walk. i.e. new creatures in Messiah Yeshua, and full-fledged members of the called-out assembly...which is Israel. The problem is when we see ourselves as something other than what God created us to be...we may miss some important pieces of His plan. All I can say is, if Abba's leading you in that direction keep asking and seeking Him and He'll guide you.

Blessings in Yeshua,

Thanks Joyce!

We will be with a tour group. I lived 5 years in Jamaica (hence the allusion to the Jamaican rhyme "Yes Na Spanish Town, Mama's going to knock you upside down." My kids gave me that name. It's like the playground chant, "You're going to get it!" Spanish Town is a Jamaican town. My kids--all adults--think it's funny and I love the identification of it all.)

Anyway, we learned how to barter there--called "higgling". Thanks for the tip on how to do it "Jewish style". LOL

How many 7 year covenants with Rab(in) do you think there will be?

Could you please post a link to this article? Please put link into or
so that the link isn't broken.


Never mind. I found it on the front page of fulfilled prophecy.
"Is Barack Obama the "promised warrior" coming to help the Hidden Imam of Shiite Muslims conquer the world?

The question has made the rounds in Iran since last month, when a pro-government Web site published a Hadith (or tradition) from a Shiite text of the 17th century. The
tradition comes from Bahar al-Anvar (meaning Oceans of Light) by Mullah Majlisi, a magnum opus in 132 volumes and the basis of modern Shiite Islam.

According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the prophet's cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End of Times and just before the return of the Mahdi, the
Ultimate Saviour, a "tall black man will assume the reins of government in the West." Commanding "the strongest army on earth," the new ruler in the West will carry "a clear sign" from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali.
The tradition concludes: "Shiites should have no doubt that he is with us.
Sarkozy challenges Germany also...
"French President Nicolas Sarkozy reportedly said he wants to become president of the euro zone countries once his term as EU heads expires at the end of the year.

According to the French daily Le Monde on Wednesday, Oct. 22, several advisors to the French president have confirmed this strategy.

Sarkozy's ambition is based on his firm conviction that the crisis in Georgia and the financial crisis both demonstrated that Europe was in need of a strong leader.

According to Le Monde, Sarkozy believes that without such an individual at the helm, the EU would never have been able to negotiate with Moscow or decide on an effective plan to rescue European banks.

In addition, with Ireland's rejection of the Lisbon treaty, there will be no stable presidency of the EU, elected for a period of 30 months, as the treaty had foreseen."

I've read the comment over and over left by anonymous 7:14 and I don't see how this is subversive in anyway. What are you talking about? I'm not as educated as you, so please explain how this is subversive. I'm not the same anonymous by the way.
Many religious leaders are calling for a day of prayer and fasting on Monday, November 3rd, the day before the election.

As one put it, "We are about to set a course that will affect our country for generations."

There is also intelligence information that police in major U.S. cities are preparing for the possibility of rioting on November 5th, regardless of the outcome of the election.

May God help us all.

Higgling, haggling...same idea. It will be lots simpler you first time with a group. Hope you get to do some mud packs at the Dead Sea.

Just learned something new about Jamaica, thanks.

Blessings to you,

This agreement by Rabin that you posted, actually was the footprint for much of the peace movement we see today. It also paved the way for the ENP. If you have time flip over to the fulfilled prophecy site and read Herb Peter's book Recomendation 666. It's free and it pulls many of these agreements together in a way that I can't in a short post. I see many of these seven year treaties as a means of subversion by Lucifer. if you dig deep enough you will find that many of the players on the sidelines of these agreements are the same. Just as it is with NA material, the deeper you dig the more you find the methods and actors haven't changed, just the time and place.

Hear ye! Hear ye! Hear ye!

Share International has begun to run radio ads in the U.S. re. "the coming Maitreya" (or Betraya, as Constance says so aptly).

See thread at FP, 1st and 5th posts in particular:


(5th post reads as follows:

"once i hear it again i'll post it , it had said ( from memory ) that a man would be coming into the world to unite all religions and usher in world peace and bring to people all things they need , work , shelter , health care . ( that's as close as i can remember , sorry . i'll try to post it once i hear it again. ) but , i do remember once hearing it i had gotten an earrie fealing in my back , chest , head , arms and legs and thinking to myself ANTICHRIST")
P.S. Apparently the non-Christian radio station dial position was 97.9; heard in Monroe County, Pennsylvania (radio station call letters unknown).
I had a nice chat with Doug Perry, creator of the "Sorry You Missed the Rapture" presentation. He will be putting up a supplemental presentation with the corrections very soon. I had a long, lovely email from him explaining his work.

Uh, er, Joyce, what do you do about the following scriptures:

1. Acts 15
2. Galatians 4:9-10
3. Galatians 5:1-4

Are you saying that "No man knoweth the day nor the hour" EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO READ THE SCRIPTURES IN A JEWISH CONTEXT?

Are you a better theologian than the Apostle Paul?

Just wondering
Scripture also says "you are not in darkness that that day should overtake you like a thief."
And it just keeps getting better
It's not pre-trib, mid-trib, or post trib...

The Bible clearly a "Pre-wrath Rapture"...

In summary, the rapture will take place right before God pours out His wrath during the Day of The Lord judgement (the Christian is spared from facing God's wrath by being raptured).

Notice New Testament scriptures call the "rapture" event as taking place on the Day of The Lord (see 1Thess 5:1&2, 2 Thess 2:1-3 and 2 Peter 3:10 for starters).

Very few Christians know what the "Day of The Lord" is, and sadly, many more have never even heard the term.

The Day of The Lord is a VERY IMPORTANT teaching and has it's origins in the Old Testament.

Grap a Bible concordance and do a study on the words "Day of The Lord"'ll discover that this event is the END OF THE WORLD WRATH OF GOD.

The Day of The Lord is announced or preceeded "cosmic disturbances" such as the Sun going black, the moon appearing to be blood red, and the stars fall from the sky (or they stop shinning)...

These cosmic disturbances are seen in the New Testament as well. They appear in the teaching of Christ in the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24 (Jesus is teaching about the "end of the age" as well as His return)....and they also appear in Revelation 6 when the sixth Seal is opened.

The Sixth Seal, when it is opened, the cosmic disturbances announce to the world that God is preparing to JUDGE the world, and the people of the world hide in the caves and under rocks to hide from his wrath. They also identify the cosmic disturbances as the wrath and judgement of God (see Rev. 6:16-17)

Right before God pours out His wrath (the Old Testament teaching of the Day of The Lord concentrates on the cosmic disturbances and the FIRE of His wrath, the New Testament, especially the Book of Revelation, provides all the terrible details i.e the 7 bowls, the 7 thunders, the 7trumpet judgements) and since this is the Wrath of God, CHRISTIANS ARE NOT SUBJECT TO HIS WRATH AND WILL AVOID IT BY BEING RAPTURED...

So, since the rapture takes place as the first event of The Day of The Lord, and the Sixth seal announces the beginning of the Day of The Lord, when does the Sixth Seal take place during the events of the 7 year period commonly called The Tribulation period?

The Tribulation Period is typically presented in two parts, the first three and a half years and the second three and a half years. The major event that separates the two halves is the "unvaling" of the antichrist, or sometimes called the Abomination of Desolation which is typically identified as taking place right in the middle of the tribulation period.

Starting from the middle of the Tribulation Period, the antichrist enters the rebuilt temple and claims to be God, this is when he rolls out 666 and demands the world to worship him.

This event corresponds to the opening of the Fifth Seal when the antichrist persecutes and kills Christians that will not submit to his "lordship" and he kills them by beheading (in fact, in the book of Revelation, the souls under the alter of God who are killed by the antichrist when the 5th seal is opened, they cry out to God to judge the world, God gives them white robes to wear and tells them to be patient, indicating that God isn't judging the world at this point in the tribulation period).

Since the 5th seal ocurrs at the middle of the tribulation period, this means the 6th seal must follow the 5th seal, sometime later in the second half of the tribulation period.

The 6th seal is opened sometime during the second half of the tribulation period. The 6th seal annouces to the world that God is getting ready to judge the world and the rapture is the first event of the Day of The Lord....

Sorry for being so "wordy" but here's what the Bible teaches abut the timing of the Rapture.

Study this with the scriptures and you'll see how it matches the scripture perfectly.

In the Olivet Discourse, the Lord teaches about the wars, nature diasasters and world events, then mentions the Abomination of Desolation and then He mentions the cosmic disturbances. Right after that, the world witnesses the flash of lightening from the east to the west, and the angels gather the elect from the 4 corners of the world...this is the rapture and it takes place right after the cosmic disturbances of the 6th seal...

Hope this helps......
Anonymous 3:06,

Here is a link to Apprising Ministries who had an entry about Share International's ad on a Sacramento (nonChristian station) radio station:



Thanks Deannie,
I was wanting to know more about the radio ad. There was also a
Share International News Release: NO. 86,OCTOBER 2008
with a little additional commentary
related to the financial situation.
Constance is on with Dr Stan right now. 8pm pacific time -Rudi

Read all about it here:

Night for now!

To the Anonymous poster who wants to inquire about the Scriptures:

As for your comments about Paul, I think he was a fabulous "theologian" but widely misunderstood...Even Peter said that he was "hard to understand" and that was back then, so you can imagine 1900 years later.

"No one knows the day or the hour" is a reference to Yom T'ruah, a feast which commences on the New Moon. No one does know the day or hour of the new moon. It requires watching. It's the only mo'ed that begins on a new moon.

Acts 15 is talking about what to do with the new believers from the nations coming to faith and Yacov, the brother of Yeshua, head of the Jerusalem assembly decides that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, blood, sexual immorality and things strangled ( these rules would be found in Torah)

and then he states:

Acts 15:20-21 but that we write to them that they abstain from 1athings contaminated by idols and from bfornication and from cwhat is strangled and from blood. “For aMoses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since 1he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

These new believers were going to learn Torah at the synagogues...there was no "new testament" there was the Tanach and it was fully expected that the believers ( most of whom were already God-fearers) would learn Torah at the synagogue on Sabbath.

There are many scholarly arguments about who were the "judiazers" and the arguments range from Gnostic Jews to Gentile believers.. I don't have time or space to go into that here, but I would suggest that you do some further studying of the text. I will say that God's mo'ed, are appointments that HE GAVE to us to where we are to meet with Him. This is the hebrew meaning of the word mo'ed, and I don't think Paul was referring to the mo'ed as "weak and beggerly" because that would make God a liar, and we know He's not. I have to laugh at the fact that Christianity has made the mo'ed into something of the past but has made the dates which were later taken from pagan feast days, into holidays that are so Easter from the fertility goddess Ishtar. Go back and study what the mo'ed are. Yeshua was crucified on a mo'ed. He was the Lamb of Pessach. Pentecost is Shavuot, the mo'ed when Torah was given, and then the mo'ed when the Holy Spirit was given...3000 died because of the golden calf worship, 3000 were saved in the book of Acts. Yeshua was the first fruits of the resurrection, another mo'ed. Of course He will come back on a mo'ed. Go to Genesis. When God made the sun and moon, He said this:

Gen. 1:14 ¶ Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

The word for "seasons" in this verse is mo'ed. This is why the Hebrew calendar is a solar/lunar calendar..God said this was good...

There is another key here in this verse:

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who 1are seeking to be justified by law; you have afallen from grace.

WE are NEVER justified by keeping Torah ( by the way in the Apostles writings law is not always Torah, because nomos is a general word for law, which can mean any kind of law, civil, etc. and Torah is poorly translated to mean law. It is teachings, instructions).

Abraham was justified before he was ever circumcised, so his circumcision was just an outward sign of obedience, but his faith had already justified him. Just like baptism ( mikvah) doesn't cleanse you from sin. It's an outward sign of your acceptance of what Yeshua already did for you.

This is a very in depth subject which can not be adequately covered on this blog, but if you are sincerely interested there are many resources to explain. For 1900 years, the church has been trying to replace Israel, instead of doing what Paul said and being grafted to the Olive Tree. The Tree of Life in the Garden is Torah, and Yeshua is the Torah who came in the flesh. He cannot contradict Himself.. That would be contrary to His nature.

Salvation is by faith, but sanctification is by walking in obedience to God's ordinances which we do when we have already put our faith in Him. Legalistic observance of the Torah, to achieve justification is not right. We are not justified by our own works. WE are justified by the shed blood of Yeshua the Messiah. This is the issue discussed in Galatians and it's very technical, but suffice to say, scholars today are still debating the meaning of expressions such as "works of the law" based on findings in the Dead Sea Scrolls...

One more thing...the Bible was written by Hebrews, almost exclusively with the possible exception of Luke. Even the Greek used in the Apostolic Scriptures is not pure everyday Greek, but a Hebrew kind of Greek, because it was hebraic concepts being translated. If you don't understand where the writers were coming from, it's going to be hard to understand

If you are the same anonymous who wrote about the rapture....I prefer to call the pre-wrath departure the resurrection. The word rapture confuses the issue.. At the sound of the "last trumpet" ( feast of blowing) the dead in Messiah will rise and all those who are still living will meet HIm in the clouds...Can you see how this fits with Yom T'ruah?

Hi Paul and Constance,

Your points are well taken! In the last analysis, the Bible doesn't tell us HOW God created. the Bible tells us THAT God created.

God could have created "all things seen and unseen" in six seconds, six twenty-four hour days.....or six million years.

Because as it says in the Bible:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.--Psalm 90:4

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.--2 Peter 3:8

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52

In other words, God is not confined to operating in our time zone.
This is a very possible pretext to world currency.

"IMF Nuclear Option: 'Print Money'"

nick in taiwan
Hi Constance, I see we were on the same page tonight, however in my time zone it’s too early to say goodnight. If your schedule permits could you please shed some additional light on this for us? I’m hearing some kind of alarm bell ringing but I can’t tie it together. I remember you addressing the European Union Satellite Centre (EUSC) or something similar on a past radio program, but I didn’t realize until looking at the website how thoroughly it’s function is intertwined with everything related to Javier Solana.

“The Centre shall, in coherence with the European Security Strategy, support the decision–making of the European Union in the field of the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP), in particular of the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP), including European Union crisis management operations, by providing, as appropriate, products resulting from the analysis of satellite imagery and collateral data, including aerial imagery, and related services.”

The website has a list of key documents including the 2007 ESDP Newsletter featuring
“EU Prepares for Enhanced Role: Kosovo”
Newsletter Link:

For those that aren’t familiar, EULEX (The European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo) that Constance mentioned above, is the largest civilian mission ever launched under the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP). As of October 22, 2008 the EULEX mission was joined by the United States.
The link below is the Joint Press Statement by the United States and the EU.
EULEX website for more info:

This short talk Solana gave three weeks ago is quite interesting because he connects the Kosovo crisis to the creation of the European Security and Defence Policy. It’s titled, ““National Interests and European Foreign Policy”
This last link is an October 27, 2008 Press Conference with Solana and NATO SEC GEN JAAP DE HOOP SCHEFFER 1027/08
Most of this info is way over my head. My reason for posting it is with the hope that Constance or someone else who has a clearer grasp of how these global affairs
could effect US citizens, would tie it together for us. Thanks
Hi Constance,

Regarding the "skinhead" plot to assassinate Senator Obama, I will say that while I strongly disagree with Senator Obama's politics, my disagreements will be "acted out" democratically and non-violently in a voting booth on November 4, 2008.

Not so with the "skinheads" who were involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Obama,

IMHO, these "skinheads" are no better than Timothy McVeigh who bombed the Murrah Federal Building in 1995 and murdered 168 innocent human beings of various racial and ethnic backgrounds.

My husband happens to be a Federal employee who was attending training seminars in Oklahoma City on the day of the bombing in 1995.
The reason why he is alive today is because the training seminars were conducted at another federal building. Thank God he didn't have to report to the Murrah building that morning to process any paperwork or sign in.

As for me, that was the day I got a taste of hell! It was several hours before I knew anything more than that my husband was alive.
Hi Dorothy,

In response to your comment:


"Read to see the parallels between Odinga's campaign and Obama's campaign and keep in mind they are buddies."

Not only are they buddies, but according to some reports, Odinga is claiming that he and Barack Obama are cousins.
I found your post about the hidden warrior so intriguing I mentioned it on the radio show today when I was a guest. It seems Forbes has pulled the story (Connie's now you see it now you don't), but your link still works and it still is available in cache form. I plan to follow up to the extent I can. Thanks for the find.

Dorothy, Sarah, I too found this link very interesting on a number of levels, so I sent it to a 50,000 watt radio program with hopes that J will get some of this out. Here I have copied two quotes that I found very interesting!
Tehran's penchant for Obama, reflected in the official
media, increased when the Illinois senator chose Joseph
Biden as his vice-presidential running mate. Biden was an
early supporter of the Khomeinist revolution in 1978-1979
and, for the past 30 years, has been a consistent advocate
of recognizing the Islamic Republic as a regional power. He
has close ties with Khomeinist lobbyists in the U.S. and
has always voted against sanctions on Iran.
According to the tradition, Imam Ali Ibn Abi-Talib (the
prophet's cousin and son-in-law) prophesied that at the End
of Times and just before the return of the Mahdi, the
Ultimate Saviour, a "tall black man will assume the reins
of government in the West." Commanding "the strongest army
on earth," the new ruler in the West will carry "a clear
sign" from the third imam, whose name was Hussein Ibn Ali.
The tradition concludes: "Shiites should have no doubt that
he is with us."
In a curious coincidence Obama's first and second names--
Barack Hussein--mean "the blessing of Hussein" in Arabic
and Persian. His family name, Obama, written in the Persian
alphabet, reads O Ba Ma, which means "he is with us," the
magic formula in Majlisi's tradition.
Regarding the creation in seven days, I'm just reading a book by Jean-Marc Berthoud on Creation. Bible ans Science. Message l'Age d'Homme. At page 44 he quotes Marcus Dods Expositor's Bible, T&T Clark, Edinburg, 1888 Book 1 p.4 This quote was used by Douglas Kelly, Creation and Change. Genesis 1:1-2:4 in the Light of Changing Scientific Paradigms, Mentor, Fearn 1997, p 112.

« if for example, the word day in these chapters (of Genesis) does not want to say a 24 hours period, it is straightforwardly necessary to despair of any possibility of interpretation of the Scripture. »

(...) si par exemple, le mot jour dans ces chapitres de la Genèse) ne veut pas dire une période de 24 heures, il faut carrément désespérer de toute possibilité d'interprétation de l'Ecriture.
It did say, didn't it "the evening and the morning were the first day" -- isn't that normally a 24 hour period?
Anon. 12:40
You're right.
I flew off the handle because I thought I sensed an anonymous comment which was insincere and intended to make this blog look silly.
I apologize anonymous 7:14, I'm sorry. I was in a bad mood and I'm tired of unbelievers who reduce the words of the Bible to a soundbite in order to wave it all off and insult the intelligence of Christians.
I was wrong, probably.

The universe is permeated by Background Radiation. Deep space is NOT at Absolute Zero, which is what it would be if there had not been a Big Bang. But there was a Big Bang and every scientist in the world except Stephen Hawking, knows that. The Big Bang isn't even considered a theory any more. It's a fact. That same Background Radiation also tells us that the universe is something like six billion years old. Not to mention that it's still expanding, because it started as an
explosion, when God said: "Let there be light".

But my attitude towards you, Anonymous 7:14,
was all wrong, and again , I'm sorry.
If I'm not mistaken, it is Doug in MI on this blog who consistently says it doesn't matter who you vote for because the election has already been decided. This article would substantiate Doug's theory...which I'm inclined to go along with.

I don't like Obama at all, but I'm not a fan of McCain's either. It looks like the Republican party nominated the least likely to win candidate. Sarah Pallin, may be a genuine born-again believe and very attractive, sharp lady, but she is a light weight in foreign policy experience. One really has to ask were Americans given a viable choice. If Obama is not a US citizen, which may ultimately come out according to this fellow who holds 4 degrees from Harvard, we will have an interesting dilemma:

It seems like enough Americans are under the Obama "delusion" to believe in his mantra "Change". We most certainly will have change, and while I'm still praying, I'm trusting in God's sovereignty rather than this election. This will likely mean that we will see things we have not yet seen in our our preparation needs to be in the Scriptures.

We will all need to be "hebrews". A "hebrew" is someone who "crosses over".. If we happen to be the generation who is "leaving Egypt" and going into the "Promised Land" we might look to plagues and see what God did to Pharaoh, and how He spared the Children of Ancient Israel. We might look to His provision of the manna in the Wilderness, or the water from the Rock ( the Living Water) if times get tough. It was in the "place of hearing" ( the wilderness....midbar in hebrew) that Israel became an assembly, a nation, set apart to glorify Him, so that the nations would know, Who is the God of Israel. If we remember His Word and we are strong and courageous, we will not fail the test...but if we are like the generation who whined and complained and the 10 out of 12 who said "those people are like giants" then we might perish before getting into the Promise Land.

Joshua and Caleb were the only two who were from the generation who came out of Egypt and crossed the Sea of Jordan too. Our fear should not be of men, or of politicians, but of God Himself, which the Bible calls "the beginning of wisdom".. Will He find us pleasing in His sight? Will He say to us, well done good and faithful servant...?

Most of us on this blog are believers, so I just want to focus our attention on the author and finisher of our faith, who I call Yeshua...This is for myself as much as for all of you. We will have a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night, but the most important thing is to know that these things MUST happen before the end comes. It will be like in the days of Noah...which were awful, but Noah and his family were on the ark which was lifted above the floods and they ended up on dry land (By the way, Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals, before Moses received Torah..) He will bring us out on dry land, whether we are those that are beheaded for our faith, or those that go into captivity. If this sounds dramatic to all of you, make sure you read and reread the book of Revelations. Ask the generation who survived the Shoah, how bad it can get.. but don't be fearful, be strong and courageous, as God said to Joshua:
(Jewish Publication Society translation)

Josh. 1:8 Let not this Book of the Teaching cease from your lips, but recite it day and night, so that you may observe faithfully all that is written in it. Only then will you prosper in your undertakings and only then will you be successful.
Josh. 1:9 ¶ “I charge you: Be strong and resolute; do not be terrified or dismayed, for the LORD your God is with you wherever you go.”

(notice the hebrew word Torah is translated -teaching- not law)

Paul in speaking about the generation of the Exodus says this:

1Cor. 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Words are cheap, when the rubber hits the road, will we be walking in this faith we proclaim..? Will we not turn to the left or the right, and not let these teachings depart from our mouths, so that we may be prosperous and have success..? Will we teach them to our children and put them on our doorposts...on our foreheads and on our hands...or will we be tempted to take the counterfeit mark of the antimessiah? We all know the days ahead are bad, which is why the Scriptures need to be written on our hearts. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, which is alive and sharper than any two-edged sword dividing bone from marrow.

May Abba give us all, such a profound knowledge of His Word that we may stand and keep standing when the days are evil.

It's good to pay attention to what's going on, and to be watchmen, but it's even better to keep our eyes on Yeshua because our redemption draws near. There is sooooo much wisdom in the Scriptures, and we only scratch the surface...May He give us a hunger and thirst to know Him in these days so we
can be the ekklesia ( the set apart people) that He calls us to be..

To Joyce,

If your reference to the
"Feast of blowing" is a reference to the "Feast of Trumpets", and the "Feast of Trumpets" representing the "rapture" or "ressurection", I whole heartedly agree.

And yes, it certainly helps to understand the Hebrew slant to the Greek words...

but the bottom line is that the Church will experiance the persecution of the antichrist but will be spared facing the END OF THE WORLD JUDGEMENT OF GOD by escaping it via the rapture (the living Christians called into the air/sky, the "sleeping" or dead Christians ressurected from the dead)...

Most American Christians are expecting a pre-trib rapture and will be caught off guard...

The Bible clearly teaches a Pre-Wrath rapture and I'm just trying to defend the truth, have a good rest of the week....
What's up with the McCain & Palin campaign? The Media is definitely doing a number on this one.

They're terrible!!!

Obama this and Obama that... if they would just tell us what their plan is and what they would do.

Am I the only one who is irritated by the long drawn out emphasis on Joe the plumber?

They sound like babies!!

Is the media just giving us their version of sound bites?

Because for the life of me I cannot accept that two very apt opponents could sound so childish.

Are the "forces" that be trying to see just how far they can run on the anti-abortion & gay rights train (Christians will vote for this no matter... right?)

There is a stench coming from both sides of the camp & I pray that their demonic shields of protection come down - NOW!!

God is not mocked!!


Thanks for letting me air.
To anonymous,
I wholeheartedly agree with you. The pre-trib doctrine came from Darby. There are more problems with his doctrine than that. It has to do with a whole method of "dividing" Scripture, whereby some things are for "the church" and some things are for "Israel". God has one called out people and when we correctly translate the Greek word ekklesia, we find that it is the same word as kehila in the Torah. They both mean "called-out assembly.. God has one called out assembly going back to the Wilderness and we are one people. . The believers from the nations are "grafted-in". The believers from Israel are native-born...

I also agree wholeheartedly with you that the pre-trib, Tim LaHaye gospel is very dangerous. An important point is that being "taken away" in Hebrew thinking is not a good thing ( thinking of the verses about one standing in the field and the other taken". In the days of Noah, the ones who were taken away were destroyed.

The context of that story was like in the days of Noah. Noah wasn't "taken away"...he was "left behind".

That's why it's so important to encourage people to keep standing, even if the times get tough. There is a silver lining in the cloud that Yeshua comes in on....but it's sure to get tough before He arrives, so keeping our eyes on Him and knowing what the Scriptures say is very, very important so that we are not caught without sufficient "oil in our lamps".

Those "billions" of year’s theories, or those "literal 6 days" theories are quite meaningless when one considers our Creator God is not constrained by the time domain. He created "time". He sees the end from the beginning. He is the Alpha and the Omega. For Him, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one mili-second. We can argue about "creation" until the cows come home, but understanding how long it took for God to make the universe, or what He used for "building blocks", well, I would say that's the silliest thing anyone could spend time doing.

Each new scientific breakthrough allows mankind to see a little more of creation. When Galileo peered through a lens, many false presumptions were exposed. In the 1990's the Hubble telescope again blew the doors off our understanding by expanding our vision a million fold. But who really thinks the Hadron Colider will be the final answer? If it does answer some basic physics questions, it will also undoubtedly present even more riddles, and potentially, some extremely dangerous problems. That old "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" never satisfies.

I've been reading Job again. Our most ancient of books exists to expose man's lack of "vision", and arrogance.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Khalid Rashidi appears on this video.



Joyce 10:18,

Mr. Lahaye only repackaged some of the produce.

Darby only watered the seeds that sprouted from Margaret McDonald’s vision.

Edward Irving only plowed the field that others had previously cleared.

Oh, how I hope all these “pre-trib” folks are right and that we will all be whisked off the earth before times get really bad. But then again, there is the “falling away” to consider. Seems like a late arriving "rapture", (meaning one that fails to happen by the time most expect), might be a factor.
Hi Joyce,
yes - I have said that.
I also still maintain - the transition into office will be postponed. Could be wrong - I will be the first to say I was if it does not happen, but I do think so.

Pre - Wrath, my opinoion and I think Scriptire supports that.

6 days, 6,000 years (a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day)or 6 billion - He (Lord Jesus Christ) created it all for His own pleasure.
I like some of Carl Baugh's evidence on this issue.

Intersesting post Setterman - I had read something similar elsewhere.

Palestinian Campaigning for Obama from the Gaza? This story from NewsBusters just makes me ask how is it possibly legal?!

"On Tuesday, Yahoo News published an Associated Press picture of a young Palestinian gentleman who is campaigning for Barack Obama from his home in Gaza:
Palestinian Ibrahim Abu Jayab, 24,is seen next to his computer, in his family house in Nusayrat refugee camp, central Gaza Strip, Tuesday, Oct. 28, 2008. A young Palestinian in a Gaza refugee camp is doing his part to get out the vote for Barack Obama. With a little help from the Internet, 24-year-old Ibrahim Abu Jayab is cold calling random American families from his parent's home imploring them to vote Obama."

"One would think this would be quite newsworthy especially given Obama's ever-changing position on Israel and "Palestine" as well as the controversial tape of the junior senator from Illinois at a dinner party with former PLO operative Rashid Khalidi that the Los Angeles Times is refusing to make public."

Here's the link-

The key to the timing of the rapture is...when does the wrath of God begin during the tribulation period?

We know the Church will NOT face the wrath of God and thus will be removed from the earth via rapture.

Thus the timing of when God's wrath
begins during tribulation period helps us understand when the rapture will take place.

The pre-trib position says the whole 7 year trib period is the wrath of God...but is that what the Bible really teaches?

I think the Bible is very clear about when the wrath of God begins during the trib. period, it begins when the sixth seal is opened.

And the sixth seal is opened sometime during the second half of the tribulation period.

We know that the Bible clearly teaches that the 5th seal is opened right at the middle of the tribulation period, so naturely the sixth seal must be opened after the 5th seal....
Dear Rudi,

Re. your 1:43 AM post, imho, there is a "crossover" effect currently taking place between U.N., NATO, EU and U.S. military personnel serving in various missions around the world that is starting to show itself more prominently by U.S. and E.U. military personnel serving together, under Dr. Solana's supervision, in EULEX. As Dr. Solana was head of NATO from '95-'99, he is, no doubt, very knowledgeable about how the system(s) works and would likely like nothing better than to eventually bring all U.N., NATO, European national (and yes, even U.S.) troops under his command. [Have noticed that news video briefings by U.S. commanders in Iraq have a "Multi-national Forces" emblem in the background; the push to get a timeline for a U.S. troops withdrawal agreement (between the U.S. and Iraq) by 12/31/08 is because U.N. "authorization" will expire.]

Unfortunately, a liberal U.S. president just might go along with the good doctor's wishes, in the interest of "world governance" (heaven forbid).
Anonymous 3:27 pm-
Thanks so much for your feedback.
It really helped me make the adjustment which brought the picture into clearer focus. :~)
I'll only post this one time because I know the majority are not going to change their views on rapture timing, but I must take strong issue with a lie that keeps getting repeated:

Darby only watered the seeds that sprouted from Margaret McDonald’s vision.

No pre-tribber I've ever known or heard of believes as we do for any reason outside of the Bible itself. It comes straight from scripture. You don't agree and that's fine. But please, stop spreading this blatant lie. Please.
Hi Paula,
lie is a strong word to be used regarding that stance, and I am not saying I support or deny the statement and no - I did not make it. I am not the posting police or whatever and this blog sight belongs to Constance and we participate together in its content.
Many - many - many intelligent persons hold 1 view or another regarding this issue and have some reasoning one way or another.
I would not accuse you or anyone else for that mater of basing what your perception regarding the issue on what Darby may or may not have said and/or done.
I am totally - and I mean totally aware of all sides of this issue, read each positions evidence and/or reasoning for thier stance and my personal view is pre-wrath, and yes, the pouring out of God's wrath is deliniated in the Revelation.
But please, to call some one else's position a "lie" because you disagree - especially on this subject is just wrong hearted.
The person who posted that may have thier own reasoning behind what they think, but until you know what that is to call a lie not edifying or Christ-like, and yes, that is my opinion also.

What did the Lord say through John?
John 4
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.


To clarify: I'm not calling non pre-trib views false. I'm only calling false the charge that pre-trib was invented by Darby/McDonald.

Or is it not permissible to object when a known falsehood is being spread?

You just misunderstood my post, that's all.
Then I would pose the question with regards to your pre-trib view: define "known falshood" and preferably back it up with the Word of God (always the best course when making a Biblical arguement).
I wonder what the significance is in choosing Sunrise , Florida to do his 30 minute 5 million dollar hypnotic infomercial spell on the American people? Obama that is.

It's kind of in the middle of nowhere.

The burden of proof that Darby/McDonald invented the pre-trib view is on those who make the claim. Has anyone actually asked pre-tribbers why they hold that view? This is a question of motive, of presuming why we believe this. To assert our motives without even asking any of us is at least in the category of rumors, if not lies.

As for the scriptural case for pre-trib, there are many studies available at Jack Kelley's site, such as The End Times according to Ezekiel and 7 things to know...". Another good resource is The Thomas Ice Collection. Both sites use much scriptural support in presenting the pre-trib view, and none rely on extra-Biblical visions or commentaries.
I attend a pre-trib church. I'm the daughter of a minister. I'm a seminary graduate. Many individuals question pre-trib, post-trib,and pre-wrath views all the time. It's been debated by MANY Christian scholars through the centuries who are far more theologically intelligent than I. That said, I would NEVER disrespect a fellow brother or sister in the Lord by calling them a LIAR because they took the time to study this view for themself, they sought the Word of God earnestly, they prayed diligently for His guidance to understand the truth of His Word, and they came to an HONEST conclusion regarding this theological issue.
This is the core of my discontent with your approach.
Sincerely In His Love,
I couldn't say it better. We should all read I John more; I see Rudi has, as she quoted the epistemology of I John 1:1 Yes Rudi, as they heard, we hear, as they beheld so do we, as they felt Him, our hands through them feel and rejoice: “Blessed are those who have not seen but believe.”

Being that I fall in the category of pre-trib, but prepared for the worst: it's not when you get there but 'What Spirit ye are of" as you travel there. The Darby issue has been addressed before, but the preDarby info goes unread or unheeded. Researching the archives would benefit all, but especially the new posters.

Joyce said: There is sooooo much wisdom in the Scriptures, and we only scratch the surface... Ephesians 2:7 “That in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Isaac Watts put it thus:
“The men of grace have found
Glory begun below;
Celestial fruits on earthly found
From faith and hope may grow.”

Like they say about how much of our brain we use, not much, yet the potential is great.
earthly ground, not found-shows you how much of my brain is being used :(

After my explanation, you still think I'm calling people who hold a non pre-trib rapture liars???


Do you understand what I'm saying?

For the record,
I'm pre-wrath, with the hope of pre-trib.
Just wanted to say, enough B.O. bashing, the repub party has brought plenty of heartache and death to this world over the last 8 years.

And they brought a lot of favoritism for the rich, war for profit, breaking the laws of the land, laws that they swore to up please, save your B.O. bashing for your church meetings....

Let's try to love our enemies, start by loving the gay people, they need us....

We might be able to reach them if we love them, leave the judging to God....
To Anonymous @ 9:33 PM:

You're absolutely right. We should leave any future B.O. "bashing" to all those who elect him President November 4th. Their bashing will begin AFTER he has broken his campaign promises one by one . . . when they end up feeling betrayed by the man they voted for and thought they knew!!!

Sorry, but Obama's past voting record and past associations can NOT be either dismissed or ignored.

But, hey . . . just keep right on sipping that Kool-Aide.

And yes, gays . . . and ALL Americans are going to need our love and prayers after next Tuesday!!!

The SAD and ironic part is that George W. Bush has brought all of this on and caused HALF of the American voters to run screaming in the OPPOSITE direction . . . from the frying pan straight into the fire!!!
It looks as though Barbara Marx Hubbard made a presentation at the "Big Tent" event at the DNC. She presented the incorporation of the "Citizens Solutions Council" into the office of the vice presidency. Ifthe council's recommendations are anything like Hubbard's "final solution" God help us all.
to're a perfect example of what I'm talking about, you act as if God is a republican...please...

Don"t you know it's a sin to show favoritism to the rich?

Don't you know God has a heart for the poor?

Why do you judge the Christianity of O.B.?

Probably because you look down on people that aren't like you...

The republicans are driving people away from Christianity becasue of their hate and hard heartedness...

I am so sick of Christians using politics in the Church, it only brings division and you should be ashamed of your comments made at 9:57...

But I'm sure, you won't be repentant or convicted, but you'll probably judge me and all demos, as if you really cared....

The last 8 years have been evil and wicked but you fail to see that...and you're quick to judge B.O. before he's even been elected, and I'm sure, if he wins, you'll be against him, hoping that he fails.

That's american christianity at work! It's sick and it's sad.

God help us all...

"EU Expects Anti-Piracy Mission to Somalia to Last a Year",2144,3749644,00.html


"A total of 10 EU nations have agreed to contribute to the mission. Several EU ships are already taking part in the NATO operation. Two French frigates, a Dutch warship and a Spanish aircraft have also been involved in anti-piracy duties. The EU said the force could include some of the European ships which are already taking part in the NATO anti-piracy operation."

Note: The three above-mentioned nations all belong to the Western European Union (WEU) as 3 of the 10 full members (the Netherlands/Dutch are one and the same):

Dr. Solana is Sec.-Gen. of the WEU (not to mention his many other hats in the EU defence establishment). Highly recommend reading the entire article.
To Anonymous @ 11:11 PM:

WOW, do you ever need a reality check.

Nobody is saying that God is a Republican . . . but one thing is for sure, He is NOT a Socialist!!!

And, I doubt thst God would be friends with Javier Solana either who MAY just be the Anti-Christ!!!

And, I would say to you . . .that it's a SIN to vote for a friend of the Anti-Christ.

So why don't you just calm down and do some actual research on your candidate BEFORE November 4th instead of going off the deep end attacking McCain voters?

And, you're wrong . . . I do care deeply about all of those brainwashed people who are drinking the Kool-Aide. I pray to God that you all wake up before next Tuesday.
Hey, Anonymous (11:11 PM) --

You think the last 8 years have been "evil"?

You haven't seen EVIL . . . until Barack Obama takes America on a jet plane into the New World Order!!!

Grasshopper posted some Grant Park photos on her blog. I know you drew these eye of Horus symbols from the sky to our attention recently.
Anonymous 11:11

God may not be a Republican, but He is on the side of those who speak out for all of the innocent babies of this world (who are unable to speak up for and defend themselves) -- those who are Pro-Life and against abortion (and especially late term abortions).

Obama's voting record on this issue is atrocious -- and is even to the left of most feminists!!!
Paula, et. al

Pre-tribulation rapture adherents have dug really deep trying to find the doctrine taught anywhere in the church before Darby. For some, the effort to prove that the idea did NOT originate with Darby has become an obsession.

But they miss the point.

Of course a pre-trib rapture interpretation of scripture did not start with Darby, I said as much in my post. Prior to Darby, there appears to be less than a handful of references to the doctrine in all of recorded history. It doesn't make the doctrine wrong, just quietly absent from the vast majority of church teachings.

I wrote that Darby "watered" the doctrine, and Irving "plowed". Those are historical facts. Forgive me for saying Ms. McDonald's visions were "seed". Indeed, that was careless of me. Her dreams were not the "original seed". They were merely "more seed".

As far as the scriptures go, the more I study God's Word the more I am convinced a pre-trib rapture is on thin Ice. (Excuse the pun!) But then again, I'm willing to admit that my finite mind cannot fathom, let alone pin-point, God's timing.

That said, I can readily admit that my nearly-or-at-the-end- of -the-tribulation-pre-wrath-rapture view could be wrong. And I certainly won't mind one bit if a pre-tribber says "I told you so..." on the way up.

But if the quick escape pre-tribulation "rapture" view turns out to be wrong....well then, consider the consequences.
Old Man,
Anon 9:33 & 11:11
An effigy of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama from a tree on campus; does that disturb you? How about the same kind of thing in L.A. but instead it is Sarah Palin? If in your heart you care for Obama but not Palin you have a problem. If, and that’s a big IF, you want to really ponder what and who Obama represents follow the URL below. Please keep in mind that few here are Bush supporters; I have written often as to how this President has failed, and in fact how anti-Christian Bush is.
oldman said "Pre-tribulation rapture adherents have dug really deep trying to find the doctrine taught anywhere in the church before Darby. For some, the effort to prove that the idea did NOT originate with Darby has become an obsession.

But they miss the point. "


You miss my point as well. We're not looking for our view in church history at all; the only reason we bring it up is because of this oft-repeated falsehood that we don't get it from scripture (and that we're "escapist" or fearful). Are we just supposed to sit quietly while we're lied about? I'd say the obsession is on the part of anti-pretrib to discredit us.

For the last time: I believe in a pre-trib rapture because, and only because, of what the Bible says. The whole Bible, not just Revelation and Daniel. If anyone honestly wants to understand the pre-trib view instead of merely repeating talking points from anti-pretrib sites, I provided links to two sites that are loaded with sound scriptural backing. If you read only one of the links, I'd say Jack Kelley's is the best.

In my experience, it would be truly a miracle to see an anti-pretribber actually study our view before deciding to continue bashing it. All we ask is that they drop this ridiculous charge and deal only with scripture. Truth is not a popularity contest.
To Paula @ 8:50 AM:

Only TIME (and either the occurance or non-occurance of this event) will settle this debate once and for all!!!
Yes, it's all about the issues of;


Homosexual rights


and the Supreme Court,

those are my utmost concerns, as well as any believer.

Getting our hearts prepared for the King of Kings

and praying against His enemy successfully is primary.

Watching and praying,

Yes, it's all about the issues of;


Homosexual rights


and the Supreme Court,

those are my utmost concerns, as well as any believer.

Getting our hearts prepared for the King of Kings

and praying against His enemy successfully is primary.

Watching and praying,

To Paula @ 8:50 AM:

Only TIME (and either the occurance or non-occurance of this event) will settle this debate once and for all!!!

This is NOT about which view is correct. I've tried to say this several times. It's about a FALSE CHARGE against the ROOTS of the pre-trib view. That requires no "time to tell".

One more time: I'M NOT DEBATING WHICH RAPTURE VIEW IS CORRECT. I'm only objecting to a false rumor about the ROOT of the pre-trib view.

To Paula @ 10:30 AM:

When you say (@ 8:50 AM):
"truth is not a popularity contest"
you ARE in fact "debating which rapture view is correct."


(double sigh)
Whatever you say, anon 10:47 AM. But you might want to get another gallon of gasoline for that straw man if you want to keep it burning. And take the mask of anonymity off if you don't want to be mistaken for that group of people who is notorious for burning things.
To Anonymous,

who made this remark...


Go back and reread my post instead of misquoting me...What you wrote is exactly the opposite of what I said...

To Paula @ 11:16 AM

LOL . . .

Whether I call myself "Anonymous" or "Paula" or "Tweedle Dee" . . . I have a right to my opinion without having to endure such an emotional over reaction from YOU accusing me of potential violence.

Why don't you just try sticking to the issues? It might actually give you more credibility!!!

It is the height of arrogance to assume that your interpretations of scripture, let alone the sources you sight, are without error. Do you really think the mid and/or post trib viewpoints lack valid scriptural basis?

But the point really is that you called me a liar without any evidence to back up the accusation. A “lie” is an intentional mis-representation of facts for the purpose of deception and/or personal gain. To accuse someone of being a “liar” without presenting any evidence to back up the accusation is not just libel, it is a sin.


Darby, did more to promote and popularize the pre-trib rapture viewpoint than perhaps any other figure up to Hal Lindsey and Rev. Lahaye. Darby was to the “Pre-trib Rapture” doctrine, what Don King was to boxing. His writings and sermons on the subject are extensive. By chance, have you read any of them? I have.

Excellent preacher and brilliant theologian, Darby was, but not perfect in his understanding. You, me, and many others have already noted here that time will tell if the interpretations of scripture he promoted are correct.
Let's don't mix our religous views and desires with our government.

Let's wait for Christ to set up His perfect kingdom, and He'll rule perfectly...

If your ememy is thirsty give him drink, if he's hungry give him food....

give the homosexual healthcare benefits, they need it just like everyone else...

if the woman decides she wants an ambortion, it's between her and God...

I don't want our goverenment to be a mixure of religion and politics, they need to be separate...

Changing subjects...the Bible does teach truth regarding the rapture, it's very clear about what will happen, we need to accept the truth of it's teaching and move forward....

It damages the reputation of the Bible when the church can't believe in one truth regarding the rapture, it makes the Bible appear unclear and untrust worthly to the outsider, so it would be nice if we could treat the Bible as if it teaches one truth...

Let's love the gay person as if they are created in the image of God...let's do good to our enemies, let's share our belongings and resources with those in need....

LOVE conquers all things and it never fails, we are called to will open the door so our gospel of the cross will reach the lost....
Demonic shield #1 just came down *----Click to view video.

This is a fine video. Though, it has some errors already identified, and more errors that I will hereafter discuss.

It mentions very many important things of which many people are ignorant.

Yes, Javier Solana commands Europe, as each nation state is confederated under his position declared in document 666 item 12.
Yes, he has signed a seven year peace accord with Israel in 2007.
Yes, it is reviewed in the summer of 2010. And Yes things are going to get alot worse, this year and the next until all things are accomplished.

NO, however, the rapture is not until sometime before 2012 (likely September of 2010 for reasons that I won't go into here.)

Obama is not only our next president, but our FINAL president, who hands over the nation into a merger with Canada and Mexico for seven months before the Anti-Christ puts the new merger under his foot. Obama and his presidency will remain until just after the rapture.

You will know that the rapture is shortly at hand, when you see the miraculous rescue of Israel when attacked by Russia and the Oriental enemies in league with Islamic powers.

We know that Feast of Trumpets (9/13/07) marked the beginning of the last ten days (years.)

As of this fall, only 2 years remain until the rapture, of which "nobody knows the day nor the hour." Not all believers will be raptured. Many will be left for refinement "as one escaping through the flames."

THEREFORE, repent and return to the Lord and be not left behind!
For your Thanksgiving Day dessert go to "Powered by Christ Ministries" and hit on "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers." If you want more, Google "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," and "Deceiving and Being Deceived" (all by the same "incorrect" - that is, not approved by Lindsey, LaHaye, and Ice - historian who also authored THE RAPTURE PLOT). Bret
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