NBC reported on this bankruptcy tonight and gave broad hints on the 6:30 evening news that Chicago may be facing similar crises.
It was Detroit where I discovered the New Age Movement's existence and watched powerful manifestations of it in such spectacles as Benjamin Creme speaking at the Unity Center for Holistic Living (formerly the very large Palmer Park Christian Science Church) on November 4, 1981. A few weeks thereafter David Spangler spoke at University of Michigan expense to a fairly large crowd there. I witnessed both events.
Suburban Detroit (Ferndale, Michigan) was the home of the very large Mayflower Bookstore. It was there and at Middle Earth Books in Sterling Heights, Michigan as well as the Michigan Metaphysical Society also in Berkley where I collected much of the documentation that was used in THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW released by Huntington House in 1983.
But, it was also Detroit where prominent academics such as Dr. Wesley Gould and others at Wayne State University gave encouragement and support to my research and work during the crucial incubator days of it. It was Detroit where prominent members of the Detroit City Council such as Marianne Mahaffey vouched for my credibility. It was the DETROIT FREE PRESS that did a page and a half picture story on my work that helped turn the tide and woke people to the reality of the New Age Movement.
I have deep affection for this town. It was a black female evangelist who is still living but quite elderly, Missionary Hattie Humphrey, who first summoned me to speak about the topic after I talked to her about my research on a political boat ride for our then mutual friend, Detroit City Clerk Jim Bradley. Mr. Bradley left our world in 1997.
I had crucial support from Detroiters. I was invited to present my research in 1982, even prior to the newspaper story, to the combined staffs of three members of the Detroit City Council: Marianne Mahaffey, Nicholas Hood, and John People.
I was not raised in Detroit. I grew up in Fort Wayne, Indiana and graduated from high school in Roanoke, Indiana. When I became a Detroiter in late 1965, for the first time I had access to affordable institutions of higher learning that eventually afforded me the opportunity to become an attorney -- a remote, if not impossible dream, in my original home town.
Detroit is my adopted city. It has received much bad press from many. It is a BEAUTIFUL CITY and one well worth visiting. Pray for our region. It is one where much good and much evil have seen collision, but I do believe God has had his merciful hand on it.
I'm sorry I have posted so little the past few weeks. I'm still writing and have been digesting an intensive review of my library and have been somewhat busier as a lawyer recently.
Stay tuned! There will be more and that book is definitely in the hopper.
CONSTANCE
338 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 338 of 338alain, how did the
japanese kids move the bag?
about being physicist it was irony, "à la Taleb". nasty generalization.
Famous physicist, big science editors, big science societies, have made, that is a fact, huge announce saying that LENR was impossible for theoretical reason... then called for improbable measurement artifacts, and ignored when the problems were disproven.
I am happy to see that a physicist can consider evidences even when they don't match the theory, or to be more precise, the usual assumptions of "two body"...
Coulomb barrier, gamma, neutron, arguments are based on the two body assumption (no coherence, no screening) in free space.
note about belief that I don't believe in anything, not even in quite common beliefs (sorry mum).
I'm convinced by some evidences, and I trust some claims using some human heuristics, like the improbability of conspiracies and the probability of stupidity and Hubris.
I don't value beliefs of faith, it is an illusion of the psychology.
however trust is required for normal life, but with checking and being ready to change opinion.
Robert duncan of Uni Missouri, like Dawn dominguez of US Navy Research Lab, like Celani of CERN/INFN, like Luca Gamberale of Mose SRL, like Aldo Proia, like the journalist of Radio24 started all assuming it was pure pseudo-science...
they got convinced by evidence, mostly by experiments they did, or they attend.
the beliefs is on the other side.
which bring us back to my nasty joke about physicist...
Me it is different, I started by not knowing it was pseudo-science, and I observed the data, and I get convinced, not that it was true, but that the critics were pathologic and insulting the scientific method. I lose interest because there was no application, but after few financial and scientific bubble, I realize it was a common phenomenon and that I should not be shy.
if not all physicist are like the one who claimed the horrific sentences you find here :
http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/293wikipedia.html
they should clean their profession. Quickly, because the backdraft will be terrible for science.
I anticipate an attack of conspiracy theories, pseudo-medicine, alien invasion, preacher of apocalypse, lords of fear... surfing on the lost of public confidence in scientific elite.
It frightens me. it is already happening, and some scientists and some science domains already surf on that (well funded, rewarded, mediatized) wave.
Alain, I suspect you are better at ranting than at physics.
phycisist, instead of enging in either counter rants or matheatical arguments why don't you read everything at that site, incl. the linked articles, and then comment?
about science and ranting, I admit I behave like an ex-lover ... You have to look at the history (the real). it make me angry to see people treated that way. Does not take the best of my humanity.
about the kids.
as japanese promote the kids did it ... as a single wave function.
they could have used a screening greasy product (washing dish, oil),
some transmutation as easy to move with a troley
or moved it by fractions after opening the bag... but japanese kids used the simplest way... coherence.
that is the first idea that came to Einstein mind facing the Sternglass H2 filled X-ray tube producing neutrons.
evident. especially in a lattice.
Preparata got that same idea too.
I'm sorry to be nasty, after too much talking to wall in many other places.
Back to New Age (in its occultism rather than political form), this looks like an excellent blog, several chapters discussing occult symbolism and infiltration of evangelicalism and Christian music.
http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/
here's another one.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/
Christine, in answer to your question, "Of the making of scrolls there is no end..." (Ecclesiastes 12). There are only 24 hours in each day and many other things to read and write. You too will be aware of this problem. I have educated myself about cold fusion to my own satisfaction and I keep my eyes open for further developments. (For instance, the e-cat, but the wikipedia page of its inventor Rossi is alarming, to say the least). I have not read everything ever written by anybody about cold fusion so I might not have educated myself about it to the satisfaction of others, but I regard that as their problem, and not a reason to keep quiet on blogs. I am careful not to say that it can't exist because it is contrary to theory; I say only that, after much effort, nobody has published plans enabling others to build a working cold fusion cell; nobody has presented one and let others test it; nobody has found a way to surmount the Coulomb barrier. As cold fusion would be a great boon to humanity, good luck to those trying to do those things.
Physicist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e52KGkiQsx8 watch all four parts
the UNCED meeting of 1992 world environment movement to help the NWO
a whistleblower
http://conservativeintel.com/2013/07/30/detroits-problems-end-at-its-border/
any defenders of the big-government model that’s killed Detroit try to blame the whole thing on the loss of the auto industry. And yes, of course it all began there. But Detroit isn’t the only city to lose industry, yet it is the only city to experience such a sharp and prolonged decline. It’s also the only city anywhere near its size ever to declare bankruptcy.
Just look at its neighbor, Oakland County, which only four years ago lost 60,000 auto jobs. In relative terms, the county that borders western Detroit to the north is a well-run and thriving place whose population has tripled even as Detroit’s has fallen by almost two-thirds.
Oakland County has the same lousy weather as Detroit. It shares the same historic dependence on manufacturing. So what did it do differently? Everything. It made reasonable pension and health care promises to its employees. It diversified its economy. With the exception of a couple of towns, it has kept its taxes much lower. This Bloomberg piece on County Executive Brooks Patterson tells the story:
“In the old days they’d say, ‘As Detroit goes, so goes Michigan,’ ” [Patterson] says in his office in Waterford. “That’s bulls---. As Oakland County goes, so goes Michigan.”
Patterson oversees 4,000 employees and a budget of $776 million for fiscal 2013. In the 1990s he switched county workers from defined benefit pensions to 401(k)-type plans, and new hires no longer get lifetime retiree health care—instead they receive health savings accounts. Changes like these have saved hundreds of millions of dollars and eliminated the legacy labor costs that plague not only Detroit but city and state governments all over the country. Oakland is part of a select group of U.S. counties that enjoy a Triple-A bond rating.
Patterson has also tried to shift the county away from a reliance on manufacturing toward high tech and life sciences. Since 2004, according to a county report produced in June, Patterson’s Emerging Sectors initiative has enticed 241 businesses to expand or relocate to the county and generated $2.5 billion in investment, 29,160 new jobs, and $63.9 million in taxes.
When a problem ends at a political border, it’s a pretty sure sign that politicians are to blame. That’s definitely true in Detroit.
http://simplyjews.blogspot.com/2013/07/and-theyre-surprised.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
An interesting piece showing that Israel isn't bending over for the EU.
" In effect, the EU response to the reports (if true, and they probably are) appears to suggest that EU officials can't begin to believe that the Israelis didn't immediately roll over and promise to do whatever it was that the EU wanted them to do."
And that, as Constance has said in the past, is one of the reasons that the EU, the UN and New Age target Israel and the Jews. The Jews don't tremble under every dictatorship as many others do. They fight back.
How Uncle Sam looks at your metadata, courtesy of Snowden:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
Today, terrorists; tomorrow, Christians?
For your information, the Royal baby was born on 22/7 at St Mary's hospital in London and six days's later on 28/7 we had the tragic bus crash in Italy near Avellino. The pope departed Rio de Janeiro, Brazil on 28/7 in the evening.
From Christ the Redeemer statue overlooking Rio to the bus crash site in Italy is 4,999NM = 70.7 x 70.7NM.
From Christ the Redeemer statue overlooking Rio to St Mary's is 4,999NM = 70.7 x 70.7NM. What a coincidence!
Distance from St Mary's to Avellino? 888 Nautical miles.
P.
this numerology stuff is ridiculous.
We are at the start of August 2013 -- hard to believe! You might want to consider ordering my programs from the MicroEffect archives (www.themicroeffect.com) or call Joe McNeil at 888-747-1968. I believe he has a $20 charge per month, but you can pull down everybody's and maybe all you need is one month. The reason is that last Saturday I covered Glenn Clark's 1942 book on THE MAN WHO KNEW THE SECRETS OF THE UNIVERSE. It is increasingly clear from the historical and documentary trail I have been uncovering through my detailed library review that these men were just as involved in "the New Age" as Alice Ann Bailey and by the same name - New Age -- Capital N, Capital A! They considered themselves the "enlightened ones" -- the "illuminated ones." The C Street Foundation is appearing increasingly to me to be more "illuminated" as in what some would call "Illuminati" than the "fundamentalist" operation Jeff Sharlet made it out to be. Fundamentalist New Agers, maybe? Remember GOLD LAKE!
Constance
"Cromartie said the sessions at C Street may be more secular than they seem from the outside.
“I don’t know how much they really ever get around to the Bible,” he said. “There’s a lot of sharing. It’s kind of like an AA group where people get together.”"
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25139_Page3.html
interesting comparison. Let's look at AA. It was founded by a couple of Christians who were alcoholics. The 12 steps are essentially 4 steps broken down into details. those 4 would be familiar to a serious Christian about repentance and regeneration, but though those four general points each imply their content and action, for those who don't think coherently or draw implications that to some are obvious and to others are "huh?" it is broken down into detail.
Time passed. The inmates ran the asylum.
I used to drive people to AA and I noticed stuff, in two categories. first, I recognized the Bible derived method, so to speak, and saw it was applicable to anything, not just alcoholism. even to some mental illness stuff. This only made sense after I found the founders were Christian.
Second, I noticed that some of the much much older AA people had some stuff to say about changes. The earlier system had emphasized very practical issues about diet, vitamins, and so forth, and one such woman noticed the shift from practical focus to this "spirituality" stuff.
Now, the problem is precisely what makes it possible to be used by anyone, that it does not focus on Jesus although it always closes with The Lord's Prayer. Only you have to believe in a "higher power" i.e., God. This is packaged to be presentable to unbelievers and so forth.
Originally they were not interested in drug addicts, but finally realized the dynamics were the same, and developed multiple substance abuse groups and drug oriented separate 12 step groups.
Now, this means that you have a free market of gods, so to speak. A gal I knew who was a satanist, but had been too busy "chasing the bag" (of heroin) for years to keep up with it, and was a sharp observer, told me on the phone stuff that added up to, those who take Jesus as their higher power go farther with less slips and more recovery, and when I pointed that out she admitted it. That was back in the 1980s I have no idea what is going on with her now.
But it also means, anyone of any persuasion incl. New Age can talk, can run a group and even be on what passes for a national coordinating committee.
Which is obviously why you get the shift from practical to spiritual and the disease focus is extreme. Even the idea "we are not bad people getting better, we are sick people getting well."
EVERYBODY is bad people to some extent and either getting better, not changing, or getting worse.
If you come into it with a solid Jesus commitment, you obviously will get closer to Him. Maybe even turn some you get to know to Him. But if not, then not, unless He draws you to study Him because of The Lord's Prayer being said at the end of every meeting and you get curious.
With the inmates running the asylum format applied in any context, you got a problem brewing. That is why St. Paul laid down guidelines for group operation and leadership.
Which also means, that regardless of what agenda or lack thereof is C Street Foundation at the start or later, it is going to get sloppy at best. (which may have been the intent of the founders.)
And one of the most dangerous deceptions, is when the theology is correct, the morals are correctly taught, but the GOAL is power and worldly glory on the part of the individuals involved, and the thrill of associating with and influencing such.
A thought: prayer in school or elsewhere? you don't have to get in a proper position, fold your hands and bow your head and speak out loud,
YOU CAN PRAY ANYWHERE ALL THE TIME UNDER YOUR BREATH OR IN YOUR MIND.
this is probably better for your soul anyway than just a formal moment separated so much from normal daily life, that you jump into the sphere of the sacred, then back out living essentially a double life.
No one can prevent this silent or whispered prayer. Rarely can it be monitored.
We should be teaching our children to pray like this, and conducting ourselves like this at work, in court, in the halls of govt. wherever.
CORRECTION ON THE GLENN CLARK TITLE:
It should read The Man who Tapped the Secrets of the Universe and the subject was supposedly a sculptor Walter Russell. Dr. Alexis Carrel was also an insider in occult "illuminated" circles. Interestingly, as I recall, he was also a friend of Lindbergh. Read this intriguing excerpt and pay close attention to the names:
One day Dr. Alexis Carrel sent word he wanted to see me. "The world is facing an awful crisis," he said. "The very future of humanity is at stake. Mankind can be saved only by a group of men who are so centered in God at the Source that their wisdom is a part of the AH-Wisdom, and therefore so· conscious of the cosmos and so integrated at the center that they will be able to think clearly in many fields and not be limited to one field alone. Such a group of men, if they could find each other out, and share their wis- dom, might be able to chart a course that could save the world. Can you help me find such men?"
2 The Man Who Tapped tl;e Secrets of the Universe
In the field of religion I had found several such men. Rufus Jones I would place at the head of the list, followed by such men as Frank Laubach and E. Stanley Jones and perhaps a score of others. The fact that all these men are so humble that they would shrink from making such claims for themselves is added proof that they deserve this honor that I would here bestow upon them.
To understand the significance of this, read Norman Grubb (interVarsity Founder) biography of Abraham Vereide, MODERN VIKING. Vereide was the founder of the C Street Foundation aka THE FAMILY or "The Prayer Breakfast Network":
Her husband died in 1942, and she asked God where He wanted her to go. She checked her guidance with Sam Shoe- maker and Dr. Glenn Clark, "old and new friends," and they concurred with her feeling that she was called to live in Wash- ington, take a house, and make her home a center for personal Christian work and international fellowship meetings. In 1943 she moved with her aunt, Miss Alice Preston of London, her daughter Moira, and her secretary, Miss Ann Gill, into 2523 Massachusetts Avenue. This was God's living link. Her home, with its spacious drawing room, became the center she hoped it would be, where many found fellowshitc= and light. Each New Year, "The Twelve" held a retreat ther , leaders of various Christian movements. They included Dr. E. . Stanley. Jones, Dr. Shoemaker, Dr. Rufus Jones, Dr. Frank Laubach, Dr. Glenn Clark, Starr Daily, the Rev. John Magee (the Rector of the President's church), Congressman Walte1; Judd, the Rev. Sherry Day and others. Marian Johnson first heard of Vereide at Calvary House . . .
I'm quoting from page 79 of MODERN VIKING. This was the start of Vereide's organization -- The Twelve -- appear to be illuminates.
I'll give quotes from Clark's book again to give you the flavor of this bunch in my next comment.
Glenn Clark was writing about Walter Russell. Although Clark's book was first released in 1946, his interview with Russell was, as I recall, 1942. Here is another telling portion of Clark's book:
In a locked case were contained the manuscripts of a massive masterpiece of philosophy which he is completing for New Age thinking and practice in all human relations, and a still greater work on the science of the future, to be called This Light-Wave Universe. Both of these volumes will be ready late in 1946. He has been working upon them for twenty-five years, releasing bits of them occasionally, to the consternation of the entire scientific world. . . .
REMEMBER, it was the 1920s that the Theosophist were preparing the world to accept Krishnamurti as "Christ" / Maitreya. It was the years 1919 through 1949 that were the 30 years work of Alice Ann Bailey!
More to come!
Constance
What were they doing and why did it need to wait until 1946?
"The world has not been prepared to accept or even com- prehend the new cosmology until now," he answered, "nor has it been willing or ready to accept the New Age philos- ophy. The world needed to suffer in order to understand the simplest of universal principles, the unity of man with man and with God. The world of men had to reap the harvest of its seeds of hate, selfishness and greed it had been sowing for centuries. It had to reap this harvest in order to learn that universal law is inevitable and inescapable. "The time element was not set by me, but by the Source from Whom I gain my knowledge and receive my most detailed and explicit instructions. That date was written down by me in May of 1921, at which time I was fully informed of the world carnage which was to take place during the interim as the harvest of the seeds of greed and selfishness which the world had been sowing."
(p. 6 of the Clark pamphlet
synthetic telepathy.
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/07/brain-to-brain-control-established.html
and BTW the treaty forbidding development of weather weapons does NOT prove it doesn't exist. No one makes treaties to prevent development of something that isn't already developed somewhat. consider germ warfare, chemical weapons and nuclear weapons. and treaties tend to be broken on the sly, and/or renegotiated out of existence. not to mention often unenforceable.
Christine,
Your assumptions that both AA and its methods are "Christian" in root and substance are incorrect. Sam Shoemaker was a close ally of Frank Buchman and was very much a part of the Washington, D.C. crowd that included Glenn Clark. Bill Wilson was deeply into the occult. Ditto with Dr. Bob Pierce who on my best information was into Gurdjieffianism (Russian Theosophy). Aldous Huxley was deeply into Krishnamurti. His second wife, Laura Huxley, was a big timer in the entire New Age scene.
Constance
which would explain why it was so nonspecific theologically. more intentional than adaptive.
HOWEVER, the 12 steps are a detailed breakdown of the process of repentance and finally going out to win souls that operates in practicing Christianity, as per points in NT itself, but the failure rate of AA is high, and I think this is because any old higher power will do.
An RC priest had been an alcoholic most of his life, and somehow had never thought of God as Someone to talk to take troubles to, etc., and he learned to do this in AA, BUT ONLY BECAUSE HE BROUGHT A CHRISTIAN BACKGROUND TO IT.
http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
The major weak point is "God as we understood Him," and while this is all very well in a Christian background, avoiding denominational hassles and arguments about predestination or that stuff, once non Christian and radical heretical (Unitarian etc.) elements come in, you have a problem brewing.
Now, I don't know if this friendship you mention was during or after the alcoholism, but if it was going on while the 12 steps were being worked out, my guess is those people persuaded the founders to put that kicker in there.
Due to their background they probably turned to Jesus of the Bible to get help but their friends found this too constraining and limiting and persuaded them to put that kicker in there, probably on the excuse it would make AA more useful to non Christians and semi Christians. But appealing to them, if they felt their discovery was too exclusive.
So you end up with a scenario of personal problems push you towards reality, and then a compromise is made because of worry about feelings of people or of being intolerant or whatever, and the result is a crippled walk in Christ.
Sometime in my very early 20s, after some years of the idea of God being more like Brahman the impersonal absolute, and messing with demon evocation, something started to happen and I knew I was in big trouble. I prayed to God meaning the God of Abraham I had read about as a child and the air cleared and later I did an exorcism of the house In The Name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit, having heard of this. But it took me several more years to commit to Jesus. Its like, no one is an atheist in a foxhole, but what happens after you are out of the foxhole and home? on or leave? But that was a turning point.
there is a hilarious negative take on the 12 steps, by a fellow who just decided to quit this alcohol and drugs nonsense and didn't need AA, and commented on heroin using rockers in SF as thinking its cool but only makes them easier to beat up. I can't remember how it goes except for the 8th step, which became something like "made a list of everyone we had harmed and decided they had deserved it."
there is a certain failure to address the issue of sin aka character weakness. they say it isn't about strength of will, and I would agree, because a druggie or an alkie will fight like a tiger if anyone tries to interfere. They have plenty of strength of will, it is just directed wrongly.
But while the 12 steps help you recover proper direction and recover or gain strength of character when tempted, this is not admitted. The refrain "we are not bad people getting better, we are sick people getting well," on the one hand ignores sin and original sin fallen nature that is making the mess. You CAN say that "sickness" stuff about sin as a disease that can be put in remission, but it is only a partial analogy. In this context especially it is like surrendering responsibility. Though the "fearless moral inventory" and admitting wrongs things is a step in the right direction, the overall message of the system about disease undermines this.
of course, a person with a biblical background can make the necessary corrections. And they say at the start, take what is useful and leave the rest in any meeting.
Again, if you take Jesus as your higher power - and read the Bible a lot - AA can be used by Him as a conveyorbelt back to Him, and such people stay sober longer and fewer slips apparently. But the spiritual compromise element is built into the AA system, but the anonymous angle and each running their own program helps isolate somewhat.
AA is problematic. But some people only learn there, and not in church or in the family, the crucial issues of going to God about every little thing and applying repentance in daily life.
eugenics agenda running the odd twisting of research results this article discusses?
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/science-social-control-political-paralysis-and-genetics-agenda?
Constance is on target where AA is concerned. She has more detail than I could ever provide. Granted AA has helped many people break their addiction. Many people enjoy and feel helped by New Age ideas. Is that enough though? Sacrificing the long term for help today? Christians offer help. Jews offer help. Has AA helped people go back to those communities? No it keeps followers tightly in the AA community.
AA does in your life what you let it. I agree it is problematic because it is too nonspecific theologically. And it is sloppy enough that even what it offers to help, originally much more focus on diet vitamins physical health has changed and now is more "spiritual."
HOWEVER, there is a PROBLEM in your analysis, that the value of something is does it get people into the communities they came from?
"communities" are often only nominally Christian or Jewish. IF AA because of someone's background causes them to read and APPLY things in The Bible and seek to God throughout the day and put Him first in all matters, well and good. The particular Christian or Jewish communities in any given location they come from may be into this, and they just strayed, or may be into their own existence as a demographic identity and that is useless, both to the individual and to the community itself in the long run, since it is to glorify and SERVE God and WORSHIP Him from the heart and not run separate standards so that the sacred cannot "infect" for lack of a better word the profane and reshape it.
When this walling off is effective enough, God in OT brought wrath and Jesus in NT warns "I will spew you out of my mouth."
Christine, you are wrong. AA has its own book,and it's not the Bible. Christianity and Judaism are far more valuable than just helping people with the particular problem they are having, which is what AA does. There is no difference between helpful New Age practices and AA. AA doesn't do it. The individual with his belief in it does. If people think it can help them, it does.
You really don't have the full picture of religion if you think it's purpose is to "glorify and SERVE God and Worship Him." The religious community is not a personal street between a person and God. That's too much like those who say "I worship God in my heart so I don't have to do anything else or belong anywhere else."
You really don't like being criticized or dealing with those whose opinions are not exactly like yours, do you.
those religious communities were originally based on ONE SHARED THING, their relationship to GOD. That purpose gets lost as church or synagogue becomes a mere social institution.
It is not a question of different opinions from mine. The issue is TRUTH. I have to examine my opinions at times. But if you make anything but God the central point around which everything revolves, then you get farther away from the source of life and that puts you in the direction of The Fall. Look in the Prophets where warnings are given about those who feel that because they go to the Temple they are free to do bad things because they are God' people and protected from all danger, or warnings in the New Testament against similar hypocrisies.
Now, I agree AA only helps with one problem, and do not see the bigger picture of mankind's estrangement from God, only insofar as it relates to them. Also, being willing to stop drinking for anyone's sake but one's own, is an appeal to the very selfishness at the core of the problem.
as a matter of fact, lots of people function in their communities who are in AA.
AA is a bunch of people who only interested in God because of one particular problem, but some after they stop drinking realize there is a lot more work to do on themselves.
I think AA is seriously flawed, but it is better than nothing. OBVIOUSLY IT WOULD NOT EXIST IF THE JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN "COMMUNITIES" WERE ACCOMPLISHING THE SPIRITUAL SIDE OF THEIR PURPOSE.
Now, if you are a Jew, consider, you would not even exist if it weren't for direct actions by God from Abraham through Moses and other times. So what did God say? His people are to glorify and serve Him, not walk in the imaginations of the heart and other such stuff. Go read the whole Torah and Prophets and throw in Proverbs and Psalms and see for yourself.
And if you aren't getting this kind of information in synagogue, or, if a Christian, in church, you need to ask yourself, what is going wrong in this picture?
"Also, being willing to stop drinking for anyone's sake but one's own"
should have been "not being willing to stop drinking for anyone's sake but one's own."
Christine, there is no indication that what you write is true. AA is primarily a social function, just as you say the churches and synagogues have become. Yes those organizations particularly in the last 50 years have been infiltrated by New Age plans of actions. For many after AA there is no place to go other than to be acculturated into social justice programs. At least with churches and synagogues there is more to be found that answers the questions of what life is about. Granted many don't care about or need such opening to deeper awareness. AA is a planned dead end and religious establishments are not. One of the deepest books I came across on understanding why people go into alcohol, drugs or cults is that they are trying to escape from what they see are boundaries placed around them. AA offers them that kind of escape with the social programs, endless activities and an ability to be what they are without pretense around others. That's what a lot of New Age activities are trained to do.
Unfortunately churches and synagogues seem to have moved away from personal involvement to help an individual's weaknesses without community condemnation. Confession in the Catholic church with a one on one with a priest in a booth did offer that kind of acknowledgement of weakness and a way away from that human weakness.
Again, AA has been only a half step in helping people.
"Granted many don't care about or need such opening to deeper awareness. AA is a planned dead end and religious establishments are not."
But for those who don't care or need, IF they have such a background and "higher power"
phrase causes them to knee jerk think God, THEN they will, under pressure from the problems alcoholism brings, start seeking those answers.
as for being themselves without pretense, in AA that is about admitting honestly and not lying part of the rigorous honesty with self and others, since a person in substance abuse is highly deceptive, not only to the sober people but to each other and themselves.
This is not about "being themselves" in the sense of hang loose and be degenerate. OF COURSE AA CAN BE A NEW AGE CONVEYORBELT, but it can also be a conveyorbelt back to the Bible and the God of The Bible.
No it isn't just a social institution. A social institution is something you are involved in to look good, to keep up social ties that are useful to you and can serve that purpose whether God focussed pagan or atheist. It is a means of maintaining group cohesion, national ethnic or geographic or whatever identity, and is not about standing naked before God and only provisionally with the rest of society. God first, everyone else yourself included second.
Sure AA has activities, alcohol free ones, so these people have something to do that won't involve alcohol.
I don't like AA because it has these weak points and a high failure rate. Part of the problem is catering to the fragile egos of arrogant assholes to get them to even try at all.
DON'T FORGET THAT PRIEST I MENTIONED, who grew up in an alcoholic family, became alcoholic, got ordained anyway, BUT NEVER, UNTIL HE WENT TO AA, DID HE THINK OF TAKING A PROBLEM TO GOD. Understood the idea of grace and mercy in theory, but felt he said that somehow God's supply runs out when it came to him.
Don't underestimate how off the beam a regular church member can be, and because they either take their state for granted as normal, or are afraid to talk to anyone, will stay that way until a crisis either forces him or her to turn for REAL to God, or go over the edge the rest of the way, but hopefully will eventually drag back to God. Maybe.
I don't like AA that much, but I won't write it off altogether either.
counselling from a priest? from a rare good confessor, yes. one who will ask probing questions and get the truth out of them.
For the most part it seems to be say 10 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Father's and get outta here - er, I mean, go in peace.
Oh Christine how you fail to understand human nature! "catering to the fragile egos of arrogant assholes to get them to even try at all"?
It seems obvious to me that you don't understand those who post here, AA members or church members. We probably should have expected that with your attacks on your mother who you also failed to understand. Granted you are intelligent, but other human qualities you really need to develop. Constance allowing you post here in such an uncontrolled manner is not doing you any favors in helping you to come to peace with the world in which you live.
I gradually and reluctantly came to understand that monster very well. And information that came to me after her death, as well as before, caught her in so many lies I can't begin to list them all. I don't want to think about it enough to begin.
And just because your churches operate like churches should, doesn't mean they all do.
And you obviously don't understand the alcoholic personality very well. St. Paul's list of the characteristics of the flesh, sounds like a typical alcoholic run amok, all or most of these characteristics operating in one person.
Alcoholism is the flesh on steroids.
Somewhere in Proverbs it says that he who is not wise, is deceived by wine and strong drink.
If you are willing to examine yourself and your thoughts and feelings, and when some substance is bringing up stuff that is bad, to back off, then you are wise. If not you go on from bad to worse.
I don't understand those who post here? are you all a pack of alcoholics in denial? what I was OBVIOUSLY referring to was the alcoholics, not people posting here.
The real problem of alcoholism and substance abuse in general, is NOT that it will kill you. IT IS WHAT KIND OF PERSON YOU TURN INTO UNDER ITS INFLUENCE.
Some things warp you faster than others and not all warp you in the same way.
If you do the AA 12 steps and the "higher power" that they tell you to acknowledge is in your case the God of the Bible, is there any downside?
From what I have read there is very little interest in AA in a "higher power" which can be anything. Higher power can mean anything a person wants it to mean. Higher power can mean one's next door neighbor or the coming Lucis Trust Messiah. It is a generalization and may be why people searching for help link with it, people who are looking for help. AA is a half-way step, but like most social justice activities, for many after a while it is a dead end. That is the reason for the failure rate. Why as a business it can fail. To make it seem more than it is is foolish. It gets a lot of publicity, much more than Christian or Jewish groups doing the same kind of intervention.
The problem with the 12 step model is that the person stays stuck in their old identity. The Bible says in Christ you are a new creation and the old person has died and is buried in Christ and raised up in new life. This is the significance of being immersed in water when you are baptized. Being immersed represents burial and being dead to the old self, coming out of the water symbolizes Jesus resurrection and the life we have in him.
If you always stay, a drug addict or alcoholic or an overeater, that means the gospel has no power. You are a hopeless victim. By understanding who we are in Christ, we now walk in newness of life and in his power, appropriating his truths.
Some of the principles of AA and like programs have a biblical sound to them, but being a little bit off is off.
Forgiveness, confession of sins, repentance are all biblical ideas but without the God of the Bible who are you confessing to?
12 step is a counterfeit and creates a dependency on the program instead of on God. People may have experienced sobriety as a result of going to lots of meetings, but the people I have known that do this are completely dependent on meetings and can never stop going to these meetings.
The other problem with these 12 step programs is that their literature used to contain a lot of quotes from the Bible, but in recent years, it contains quotes from Buddha, Confucious, and other sources which means that it supports the New Age idea that we can all worship our different gods and still be one. This indicates that the 12 step programs really can lead someone into the New Age philosophy and I think that is the goal of the 12 step model which is used in some of the most expensive treatment programs around the country.
The anti-AA anonymous is completely correct on this one. It is New Age to its root and core. Unfortunately, I have deep experience with it and a beloved family member -- AA becomes its own cult, a complete replacement for God -- their "higher power" which can be "a rock, a tree, or the group itself."
Constance
In every congregation there are one or two Christians with an alcohol problem. Explanation and suggestions please!
Constance I realize that about their higher power thing and it is not the only problem.
http://www.addictionrecoveryministry.org/12%20steps.pdf
addresses this point very well, says even Rick Warren is uncomfortable with the vagueness.
however, as I said, if someone in that context takes Jesus Christ as their higher power the situation functions as a renewal in Him or a conversion. If not, then not.
It has, as an old timer in the 1980s complained, become all "spiritual" in a way it wasn't before so much, so the NAM thinking has infected it and perhaps this was the ideal of some in the start.
the self centeredness of alcoholics is not helped by their coming only to solve THEIR problem instead of to stop BEING a problem, and the idea one should not stop drinking for anyone's sake but one's own merely appeals to pride, which subtly works even while learning some degree of humility.
Alcoholism in the churches - well, first off, just what do these people who are alcoholics act like? what do they become under its influence? a psychopath?
(nothing unusual.)
or just a maintenance drinker who is functional and isn't a problem to anyone?
The core issue is "the flesh" and what on the lists Paul gives do they manifest under the influence of the booze? REPENT OF THAT STUFF, AND HE OR SHE WILL HAVE LESS USE FOR THE ALCOHOL OR WHATEVER, if its function is to make it easier to be that way.
I have watched this happen.
Are they escaping some pain? What is it and what is the horrible ambivalence, do they need to get out of a situation they handle by drinking too much? Or do they need to stop being so demanding of themselves that they be rich, famous, etc. that kind of perfectionism?
St. Paul describes two kinds of sorrowing, one that is godly which leads to repentance and life, and one which is of the flesh and leads to more sin and death.
The latter is what is often called "shame" a stinging feeling one hides from in more booze and drugs, and may cause hatred towards your victims and the people who denounce your behavior.
And "behavior" here doesn't mean drinking. It means all the other stuff that is part of the spectrum of substance abuse, and is not chemical.
The focus must NOT be on their physical health so much as what they do to other people with their mood swings, lies and manipulation and what they look like to God (Bible is good guideline like a checklist in some places).
If health issues are looming, that can be used to scare them.
Some hard liquor steady diets can't just be dropped cold turkey without medical support. (In Russia, during fasting seasons, when you are to have no alcohol, the vodka-ites were given the economia of drinking beer during Lent so they wouldn't go into seizures.)
how did they get started drinking? what is the overall context? is the whole family or job scene needing an overhaul?
This approach would be better than AA
Christine, it appears if you can't convince people, you'll talk them to death. Probably in your day to day life people will agree just to shut you up. As I understand it, there have been a few people who have started heavily drinking after reading your posts.
some things are not simple, they need to be explained in detail. I agree with everyone that AA can function like a cult, and has New Age angles, BUT that it has things that are biblical in the 12 steps.
The disease concept, unless you mean mental illness plus sin as a manageable disease, is a major flaw. It undercuts a sense of responsibility for sin.
Christine, perhaps you should leave the details to the Holy Spirit-whom you are not.
AA and other entities that are New Age bent have ripped off the Bible to form their own "program".
Jesus said: the Words I have spoken to you are Spirit and Life. John 6:63
His Words are not a formulated 12 steps-not a program.
Even "seemingly good things" can rob people of what is truly best--man-centered endeavors have the propensity to get the weak to follow and have the built-in message of cults to "keep" them.
"Christine, perhaps you should leave the details to the Holy Spirit-whom you are not. "
I agree I am not, but leaving details to Him, just what is that supposed to mean? If you don't get the details and are easily deceived by apprearances, or think the only sin involved in alcoholism is drunkenness per se, rather than what they turn into under its influence, and leave out the possibility of an occult element working in the situation, then how are you going to give good counselling? God MIGHT put the right questions and words and understanding in you.
Sure AA is a conveyorbelt to trouble. But as for a program, yes, that is another problem, a potentially mechanistic quality do this that and the other and everything will work right.
However the 12 steps devolve into four segments conversion, repentance which if real involves restitution, honest humble admission of wrong, regeneration and continued working on yourself, and evangelism. This is the walk in Christ (if you are Jesus centered) and I recognized this similarity when I read the 12 steps.
The thing is, their logic about results is circular sort of. As long as you keep working the program and coming to meetings you won't drink. part of the program is don't drink.
that adds up to, as long as you don't drink, you won't drink. er.....?
the failure rate is high, so AA isn't all its credited with.
At least Christine has addressed the question that I put - if you are a committed Christian with an alcohol problem (and they do exist, for sanctification is a process whereas justification is a one-off), and if the 'higher power' you acknowledge on the AA 12 steps is Jehovah via Jesus and no-one else, then are you on safe ground? All other Christians who have written about it here since I asked the question have ducked it.
Christine, the instant expert on everything. Her hubris would indicate she thinks of herself as two steps down from God. In reality she is the neighborhood busy body. She would make a good cult leader for the stupid.
AA works for a very few people. Those are people who are able to think like the rest of the group. They fit in, are accepted. AA works for people like any cult works. It's "Hey, I can be myself here. I can tell my story, the people are nice, maybe I can fit in and won't feel so alone anymore. They understand me and I understand them." Release comes and there is no need to escape reality with alcohol.
Here is the failure rate for AA. http://voices.yahoo.com/the-ineffectiveness-alcoholics-anonymous-unconstitutional-4644205.html?cat=5
If turning to God was the sure fire escape for every reality problem, the world would be utopia. As in "Christine turn to God and stop being addicted to being a busybody."
A little rhyme I heard decades ago.
God made man
Fragile as a bubble
God made love
Love made trouble
God made the vine
Was it a sin
That God made wine
To drown trouble in
I come to this site to learn what others can intelligently share about New Age. Instead I find myself wading through postings by a world class busy body who makes the search for information into her own personal playground. Where is the support group I can turn to? Will turning to God stop me from being addicted to learning?
God made man
Fragile as a bubble
God made Christine
Christine made trouble
God made the vine
Was it a sing
That God made wine
To drown trouble in?
In a newsletter in the past, Constance showed pictures of Madam Blavatsky and Pat Robertson, both pictures showing the right hand at chest level inside a jacket or covering. I received a story showing Karl Marx with his hand in the same position. It led me to this website which might be the explanation. http://vigilantcitizen.com/vigilantreport/the-hidden-hand-that-changed-history/
Yes, I also looked at the other sites which said it was common during certain periods of time etc. Based on information I just gather on the Masons, I thought others might find the information interestsng.
"AA works for a very few people. Those are people who are able to think like the rest of the group. They fit in, are accepted. AA works for people like any cult works. It's "Hey, I can be myself here. I can tell my story, the people are nice, maybe I can fit in and won't feel so alone anymore. They understand me and I understand them." Release comes and there is no need to escape reality with alcohol."
excellent point. There are those who take group AA itself as their higher power.
However, I am not an instant expert on everything, I am 62 years old and spent most of my life digging into anything that got my attention.
I was self taught reading by age 2.
I was reading Aquinas (a confusing over blathering drag, if you think I am bad you haven't read Aquinas) and Augustine (an easier read) and hashing over the pedigree purity issues in Arabian horses when I was 15 or 16, also eastern metaphysics of the Upanishad sort and read major excerpts of various "holy books" of various religions.
I got suckered into a lot of wrong stuff running alone not joining groups, over those years. God a scare and turned back to the God of Abraham, was rescued, dithered along and committed to Jesus Christ in a swimming pool baptism in 1977.
NO, I am NOT an instant expert. I draw from my experiences and observations, and those of others.
It is significant to me, when someone who has either no axe to grind, or a contrary axe, admits that those in AA and Narcotics Anonymous who take Jesus as their higher power do better in sobriety than the rest. I was already a Christian, and needed no persuading. But it is something that shows the power of Jesus Christ even in the AA context.
Ultimately, the AA-er is supposed to work their own program individually. This can act as a shield against some b.s., and an insulation against truth.
I don't like AA for its not being Christian, and its having a huge NAM ideas infiltration. This is bound to happen when anyone can say anything. Go into it with a bible focus you can get some help you probably won't get listening to a sermon, but might in a parachurch fellowship context. YOU HAVE TO BE SELECTIVE.
Now as for information on the New Age, you don't understand its multifaceted nature if you think these various issues are not part of it. It is both political and spiritual. you can't separate them much, because the spiritual side is used to persuade people to go for the political which is presented as the practical working out of the spiritual, and conversely, to "help" people move politically in the direction of one world govt., all the "divisive" issues, like Jesus Christ and objective truth, have to be undermined, usually starting with a self as God manifested or something added on to some exercises in handling stress.
It is layer by layer.
"if the 'higher power' you acknowledge on the AA 12 steps is Jehovah via Jesus and no-one else, then are you on safe ground?"
yes, mostly, just like the situation in social, political and economic and business and family life. The same problems of distraction into spiritual death apply there also.
Consider the parable of the sower,
Matthew 13:1-23 especially 20-23.
But it would be better to get what Jesus compatible stuff you can from AA and get out. There is a lot that isn't compatible.
My 8:54 p.m. answer directly addresses the problem---why oh why are not Jesus' Words taken to heart in letting His Holy Spirit impart His Power to alll issues-you name it-every type of human need or weakness? The whole thing is about believing Him or not--either/or. He either has the Power to overcome or He doesn't in hearts and minds.
In mine He has overcome (He saved me from myself when I was born-again) some biggies and still working the process/progress (sanctification)to gain even more of my heart and life that only happens as I (sometimes daily) surrender to His Authority. Programs do not cut it---the "dynamos" of the Holy Spirit is quenched in so many and the "knock-off version" of "help" is all the man-powered programs of self-help and/or "professional" help (and more drugs). A really bad joke people are buying into.
So your question is answered but are people truly satisfied to simply trust the Word of the All-knowing-All-powerful Loving Merciful God applied by His Spirit??? (...we will not have "this Man" to reign over us..Luke 19:14)
Fergit it.
5:41 - Your post is full of nice generalizations that can be found in any glib pastor's presentation. You say that you have been helped. Specifically how were you helped. What did you change from to what did you change to? You are anonymous so you can be honest. What makes you attribute the help to Jesus. Do be specific. You are the one bringing your changeover into the public eye.
Since you asked..
What you may think of as glib is deep heart work. The Lord Jesus is the Only One Who (Scars to prove it) can truly Love the Unloveable--you know who you are--it's me--and it's you..(be honest now--what we are really like when nobody's lookin')
The heart (all people) is desperately wicked-who can know it? says jer ch 17 v 9. The first family was the micro of that and all the world's families (macro) thru time have done no better (x billions) each sinners' sin choices/responses-what we are seeing in the world right up to today..so my nice church upbringing-my decent (by reasonable standard human behavior) could not keep me from the heart-sickness of choices willingly made nor could it deal with what was out of my control---But God...He showed me how much my heart was sick (just like every other sinner) needing His Forgiveness--so could not just pray some little "fire extinguisher" prayer-and not enroll or court ordered social program of varied and only slightly effective (shallow) ritualisms-formulas-positive thinking mantras or punishments to modify mere externals but the core of motives/intentions against God-against others-against myself. Revealed to me by the Word of God and I was undone. U N D O N E and reached out to the One Who had reached down to me (acquainted with our griefs ch 53 of Isaiah) the brokenness of my crushed spirit poured out to His Listening and Waiting Heart. Jesus' Remedy Atonement did the work that freed me---from myself. This Alone God's territory in the human heart made after His Image--not to control us but let us become what He originally saw before we came to be-that is..if we willingly choose to place ourselves in His Safe Keeping by faith in Christ.
So instant relief for heart and mind right then and there in many realms of life. Literally changed from wanting to end my life to wanting to find it again in the Blood-Tie (the life is in the blood) was way to deep and Love (as in the First/Greatest Commandment) the motive to make me desire Him-the New Life He gave me. The want-to of living-not the have-to began.
Struggles continued though, in other ways---this takes time and growth. the pull of flesh is strong but His Spirit is Stronger so choose again and again to daily lay down my own thoughts and feelings to let Him rework and reclaim them----based upon What HE Says----my original point. Depths plumbed only by the Spirit of the Living God Who applies the Living Word, groaning my behalf (when I do not even find strength to pray) to make my mind and heart regenerate---I am no robot...I am Loved. It is personal..and..stripping at times because that is how Love works--but worth it-down into depths with me where no man can go. Now a restored life with a good family and home, though not problem free-but do-able, rewarding...joy-filled because He daily strengthens me and in His Presence is Fullness of Joy. (phil 4:13 & ps 16) Confidence well placed because I stand on the ROCK that is higher than I. ps 61:2. So I know what He did for me He can do for anyone-the whole world over. Human beings are all essentially alike. Being able to Love and Forgive--being able to find Joy even in the not enjoyable is a God Thing! The More Excellent Way that I pray and stay my mind upon. Failure is an option because I am still human until my (immortal) change comes-book of Job-but I don't have to take that as the option as I was driven to before. His Grace my covering, His Love is my motivator. 1 cor 13. Can anyone improve upon that?..how I know I want to live--to contribute in this world. And losing your life to gain His--laying my life down (even my rights to myself) in favor of His Better way..working Contentment deeper into my self-the new man of Romans ch 6. (no need to enumerate and specify my sins-you get the idea)
A Beautiful (on going) Exchange it is...
Not sure what it means for sure yet, but at any rate JAVIER SOLANA was one of two GUESTS OF HONOR for the swearing in of the new Iranian president. The USA was not invited to the event.
Bottom line after all of the adjectives are taken away, you were on the path to suicide because of depression and now you are joyfully on a religious high as shown by your words. You do tend to be a person of extremes. Have you looked into possibly being bi-polar?
I'm glad your life has changed and can only hope there are no more lows.
well, 3:07 am, I see you are as shallow a reader and comprehender with this guy's post as with many of mine.
No, that is not what he said. He did NOT go from one extreme to another by means of a mere mood swing but by HARD WORK at this change, which was only possible to do by getting strength and wisdom from God and The Bible and God's help in applying this.
Really, did you even pass your reading classes, or flunk literature and so forth and graduate care of math?
you can't even understand things when presented spelled out, or are you just malicious?
So that means, you are either a fool or a nasty piece of work. Take your pick. I don't see any other options.
Christine, I've know people with bi-polar problems. It's a dangerous illness and people don't go from one extreme to another as quickly as you say they do. I am not going to point to one site but there are many dealing with how bi-polar people relate to religion when they are in the high phase. Rather than go your usual I know everything there is to know route, I am suggesting you learn about that which you know nothing.
If you think that the verbal sharing that was given is normal behavior, it says a lot about you Christine. You would rather see validation for your views rather than help someone. I think you understand that you and the anonymous person have much in common, and I don't mean Christianity. Whenever I see you erupt, I can only think how the fairy tale character Rumpelstiltskin reacted when he was recognized and identified.
I didn't mean a momentary mood swing. Sure bipolar can have swings lasting months or years.
But you do not get to that high point by working hard on yourself and praying. Quite the contrary. It comes on its own, it goes away on its own, and it DOES NOT NECESSARILY INVOLVE ANY IMPROVEMENT IN ONE'S DEALING WITH OTHER PEOPLE OR IN ONE'S MORALS.
In fact, some people can get quite irresponsible and even psychopathic on the upswing.
This guy IS NOT RELATING TO RELIGION IN THE HIGH PHASE, he started relating to religion in the LOW state, and further that low was not just a mood low but the pits of being a scumbag since he speaks of sin. You can be REAL LOW morally and spiritually speaking and be full of self esteem and joy and so forth.
Maybe verbal sharing like that isn't normal behavior in your social circle, but it very normal in others.
This person answered the question you asked, you set him up so you could clobber him, but you have failed, because your analysis does not fit his statements. It does, on the other hand, fit the experiences of many others. And his sharing this is a help of hope potentially to others.
As far as recognizing and identifying, it is I who have recognized and outted you, not vice versa.
Since you asked..remember? I am not bi-polar, take no drugs whatsoever. My Wonderful Counselor is Jesus The Christ. Was in a bad marriage back then and was on the merry-go-round of the emotions at the time of hope deferred--but God---used that very thing to turn my life around and set me up for coping with further disappoints in life (that come by the dozens sometimes and don't always see them coming---however--I am able to live stable because of The ROCK I said I'm standing on. I do not live a "drama" life from one high mountain to deep valley experience but maybe it would help if you read about the demoniac of gadera--who ends up just being in his right mind--because of The Words of Healing and Power that JE S U S S P O K E. So where are you is my question? Maybe you just take exception to my way of expression (who knows or cares?)If you cannot take my words at face value without your own already pre-prescribed analysis then possibly you are just that wonderfully "whole" person able to go it without God. (if that is your case well good for you..yes just go have a nice life)...
Some of us have gotten to know our own poverty of soul and it is us whom Jesus meets with when He is invited to do so..then He wonderfully leads us out of the mire to real life in His Name.
Matthew 9:9-13 states my case. What I described is my encounter with the Great Physician. (since you asked..and truly do not care if you get my story or not--it is what it is and needs no further explaining or defense).
1:19 AM....
What a glorious testimony of the power of God to save! It is not religion that saves, as some here would imply, but Jesus Christ and the power that raised him from the dead that is our victory.
All of our own efforts are nothing. Paul counted all of his accomplishments as rubbish when compared to the work of the cross through Jesus Christ. Amen!
Anonymous, I wasn't commenting on your relationship to Jesus. Many people who are bi-polar are given stability through having something to turn to, a rock such as a religious connection. What concerned me was the emotional extremes you seemed to have gone through and still may be going through. Do some reading on the topic, and if you find yourself going low again, check it out. If you never go low again, I think that's wonderful and my idea may be wrong.
Many people have come on this website claiming all manner of changes in their life due to their acceptance of Jesus. Other than their distraction from the topic which I consider extremely important and ignoring it, I have just let it pass. This time, not knowing anything concrete about your life I asked a simple question asking for an explanation that could be tied down to facts.
Relationships with Jesus, while meaningful personally, have no connection with arming ourselves on facts about the New Age movement. The way this website discussion has deteriorated, it leaves Constance as the only living reliable authority on the New Age movement which is very destructive. And that's a very dangerous thing. Your personal recovery should not conflict by distraction with having more individuals aware and caring about a physical takeover of our lives.
I know many individuals want to share "the good news", particularly new born Christians. Now take some time to learn more about the New Age movement and share it here. It's another way to be helpful.
Christine, you are just a major busybody. Were you asked to butt into the dialogue I was having? No. As I said before, Christine, the instant expert. Add idea and stir to get instant results.
By the way anonymous, I have a deep relationship with knowledge of God, I just don't go on websites sharing it to the exclusion of the topic the discussion page is about. It has been a quiet, slow journey with continued learning. Probably because I'm part of an older generation, we do not put all of our personal problems out for public inspection. Never have. We do not consider our personal life problems unique but only as something we have to deal with as life goes on. Everybody has problems, many times severe. You did put your personal experience with religion on the table for public comment without being asked to. I can only pray that things will continue to go well for you.
"Were you asked to butt into the dialogue I was having?"
you were having the dialog IN PUBLIC. this is an OPEN FORUM and YOU DON'T OWN IT OR ANYTHING THAT GOES ON ON IT OTHER THAN YOUR OWN WORDS.
I don't need a request. You post something publically instead of private email, ANYONE CAN ANSWER.
And if your email is an egroup ALL SUBSCRIBERS RECEIVE AND READ IT AND CAN COMMENT.
That is how this works.
No of course you didn't comment on his relationship with Jesus, just his supposed emotional swing (over time).
BUT HE DID NOT DESCRIBE AN EMOTIONAL SWING, he was really down, whether suicidal thoughts were involved or not he didn't say, because of specifics, a bit part of which was lack of a relationship with God just going through the motions, but other things were in play.
The happiness now is because of change of circumstances consisting of the stuff his conscience was getting upset about he has stopped, other behavior and thinking changed, and he has gotten real with God instead of shallow hypocrisy.
This is not bipolar, this is facing how messed up you are and doing something about it, and being happy as a result.
Given your snideness about Christianity and religious opinion, I got a strong suspicion you are doing this on purpose, trying to convert so to speak a conversion story into a psychiatric event.
Desperately trying. Despite the fact that the details don't fit.
Oh, and by the way, since you are engaging in either mind games hoping I back down, or are seriously hypocritical,
DID I ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON OR BUTT INTO ANY OF THE DIALOGS I WAS HAVING WITH ANYONE OR SPEAK UP ON ANY RANDOM POSTED THOUGHT?
I do not in fact consider you need permission. BUT NEITHER DO I.
and you act like I need permission to comment on your "dialog."
"a bit part of which was lack of a relationship with God"
should have been "a big part of which was lack of a relationship with God."
"You did put your personal experience with religion on the table for public comment without being asked to." - anon 1:16 PM
YOU GOD DAMN LIAR!
YOU ASKED HIM YOUR OWN DAMN SELF!
(and I strongly suspect the only god you got a "deep relationship" with is yourself.)
If it wasn't your request it was your tone and immediately before his post which was in response to it.
Sounds to me like you either are a scatterbrain's idea of a scatterbrain or you are one evil liar and manipulator.
(Did you ever do prison time? some of the best mindfuck game players come out of that context. you do look familiar as a personality type.)
"Anonymous said...
5:41 - Your post is full of nice generalizations that can be found in any glib pastor's presentation. You say that you have been helped. Specifically how were you helped. What did you change from to what did you change to? You are anonymous so you can be honest. What makes you attribute the help to Jesus. Do be specific. You are the one bringing your changeover into the public eye.
10:36 PM
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Since you asked..
What you may think of as glib is deep heart work. The Lord Jesus is the Only One Who (Scars to prove it) can truly Love the Unloveable--you know who you are--it's me--and it's you..(be honest now--what we are really like when nobody's lookin')"
and the prior remark to which you addressed the question, ASKING FOR THE PERSONAL REVELATIONS THAT YOU THEN COMDEMNED HIM FOR MAKING,
was itself in response to my remarks, and he was comparing dealing with God to dealing with mechanistic programs and gave the practical experience he had as an example, without details YOU THEN ASKED FOR.
I suppose now you will want all the details as to how he sinned against God and against other people, and will then condemn him for those things he is already sorry for.
Christine, if you think I have time to read another of your long, meaningless commentaries, don't expect it.
Well...just to let you know 12:57--I am not stating my personal matter (about Christ and myself) here because I treat it like common fodder ("you folks will hear it or else" type exchange between us--you did ask so I indulged you) but it does have a real bearing on the topic at hand. The new age and it's non-effective "help" for human ills and outright dangerous diversion(s) to channel the unsuspecting or those who seek so-called "enlightenment" into the dirty dirty business of controlling people (making them think themselves helped as AA does for instance) is why I said what I said. What I bring to the table highlights the very thing that must be addressed. Who has the real answers for the human condition (since the fall of man in eden) and how does that translate into the normal realm of the day to day to make a life a productive one among all the ruin around us? Much of what I wrote was pertaining to the past (some decades now) in as far as the very real hardship of having no real answers for the troubles of my heart and life. For the blessings and ease I actually lived I should have had no real issues some would think-but I was born a fallen human...this i know). I found that the social programs had little concrete help because not able to address what brought on the falleness in the first place--and we can know why in the new age slant of bending minds to serve an end that gives only certain "high-minded" people political and social clout to deal with the rest of us poor slogs is what this world has been coming to for a long long while. Constance has catalogued very well-people and ideas of the modern age who borrowed heavily from the old pagan thinking (oh and others too so thanks to all of these) and there is no reason for people not to understand the facts about this--except that it serves their own ends too perhaps. It is a deceptive time in history and the Truth is out there for the taking. (God wrote a Book)....I get more concerned that people are asleep at the wheel (or busy fighting) and not even concerned or too distracted for the Trouble just up ahead in the world of global controls and the new age practices to bring that about (nearly complete too).
I told you I have in fact received great help for mind and soul and WHO is responsible for that. Yes I want the whole world to know-but my attempt is not to bludgeon them into it. I also shared that this is an on-going work of the heart in other issues for how I think and react as well as decide things of my life today--no longer grappling with those same crippling habits and heartaches that had me bound those years ago-but wrestle (sometimes on occasion fiercely in my personal thoughts) in other matters. I am a work in progress to have things now put to right use in my life so as to not waste what I learned in my troubled time of life. I find that life is not fair---But God is! and that gladdens me incredibly to know that what would have, could have, been a write-off of a life is meaningful for me now--not being wasted--making me a picture-a before and an after of God's Amazing--yes and I mean Amazing---Grace. Others need the same Grace and I can share it and yes I just did. That is my story-not a friend of new age garbage this one-no new age taint on my recovery-thanks be to God My Savior Who gets All that credit!
"This is not bipolar, this is facing how messed up you are and doing something about it"...
You are absolutely right about that Christine.
What I only did was surrender to the Authority of Christ.
The new age proports to fix the world---a truly sad fact and proudly clinging to it.....But Christ's Work on the Cross did all the heavy lifting and The Fix is available for the asking for those humble enough to know they are broken.
Dear 1:16 p.m.,
Do not worry that I am wanting to flood this blog with anything else of what I wrote to you as just responses to your questions or implications. Enough is said on my end. I know the purpose of this blog and do not want to be guilty of making it about myself...that said...yes I brought up my experience though very vaguely and you furthered the conversation with wanting specifics (which I do not disclose for multiple good and discretionary reasons). I wanted you to at least know why I was pitting my real Answer as to Who has the controls of my life vs. the control that is being fostered these days by the new age movement through various socially acceptable platforms. People can make up their own minds as to who will command the control of their lives and futures. We will all give an answer someday for what we allowed our lives to become-having placed ourselves under some control.
Anonymous, as I see it, it's not Jesus versus the New Age political system. If that was so, then no one who was emotionally against New Age could do anything to stop it. On the New AGe one world religion side I see spirituality without morality. Christianity and Judaism teach morality which is a set of very important laws showing how we should treat each other and how we treat community members. Every thing I have learned tells me that those laws could only have come from a source outside human limitations. People who follow those laws stand in the way of the moral laws the fascist/communist proponents have developed. This is not an original idea. It comes from Prof. Gene Veith's book Modern Fascism. He's a high level Christian professor. Look him up.
You say you are a follower of the teachings of Jesus, which means you accept the morality he has taught. That is so good. Stay on that path as teaching others about Christian morality is very valuable in helping the fight against New Age.
Christine, you are very proud of the gift God gave you, your intelligence. My husband was also brilliant. He was a member of Mensa. I learned that many extremely intelligent people joined Mensa because they were frustrated by the world's inability to use that gift they had been given. Think about it. He was far more intelligent than you and yet it didn't work out for him. That's life.
When people work together to seriously learn about New Age, interesting information comes out. Absolutely new to me even though I have been learning about New Age for decades is information in the following article.
http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2013/08/440hz-music-conspiracy-to-detune-good-vibrations-from-natural-432hz.html
Please comment on the accuracy of this if you have done some studying in the field.
the first loop was actually irritating but it could be because of the sharpness of the horns played. The second seems more peaceful, BUT it is also sadder in a way. Might set you up for depression and even for doing things you don't like but somehow have to be done (why? often saddening but one keeps on with it)
Perhaps it would be better to try the experiment with a better thing than that damn classical type music.
Christine, As a side note, I really don't care what you think. You foolishly do not understand how many times you have responded to an anonymous post giving more information about the New Age movement and it is me that you are responding to, the person you say has no knowledge about the New Age movement. Why don't I identify myself? It's that I hope to reach other rational people who also will post anonymously who have done research on the New Age movement. Some day, some time that person will post here I hope. In the meantime, you are a speed bump. You could be more, but your ego stands in the way.
I don't care who you are. you have never offered an explanation of what YOU think the New Age adds up to, while what you denounce as ignorant or worse is precisely the definition given by Constance and all experts, a mix of spiritual/occult and political.
Meanwhile, I deal with specific parts of it. The focus here on EU politics is based on an assumption that it is the revived Roman empire assuming that is even a correct interpretation of Revelation.
I suppose you may have posted some good stuff on New Age. And you could lie and claim ANY anon post is yours.
But it doesn't matter. BECAUSE THERE IS HARDLY ANY SUBJECT YOU CAN POST ON THAT IS NOT EITHER NEW AGE RELEVANT OR NEW AGE TARGETTED FOR USE AS A CONVEYORBELT.
I think you are the speed bump. Now I am ignoring you.
You are incapable of ignoring anything posted here. It all becomes part of Christine's world. You and I may be the only people posting regularly here. Even Constance hardly looks in because she doesn't seem to find anything much that is helpful.
Javier Solana suggests Iran and US to create communication channel
Reaching an international agreement is necessary because Iran's nuclear issue is important for the international community, Solana said. He underlined that, Rouhani`s election as president is the opportunity for achieving a solution on Iran's nuclear issue. -"I have no authority, but still have the influence which can be used for proceeding the negotiations," he said.
Anonymous 6:48
Stability in Europe’s eastern neighborhood, already precarious, is being further strained. The political prospects of several countries, including Ukraine, Georgia, Turkey and Russia, remain unclear. The region is grappling with the fallout of the economic crisis, and Russia and Turkey, in particular, are threatened by the turmoil in the Arab world.
On April 13, the Center on the United States and Europe at Brookings (CUSE) hosted former European Union High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy Javier Solana for a discussion on how the European Union (EU) and NATO should engage with Europe’s strategic partners in the East and Southeast. As a former secretary general of NATO and secretary-general of the Council of the European Union, Solana offered insight into the prospects for future EU and NATO enlargement, the potential impact of the eurozone crisis on the region and how Europeans should attempt to cooperate with their neighbors in tackling global challenges.
Brookings President Strobe Talbott provided introductory remarks and moderated the discussion.
http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012/04/13-eastern-frontiers
________________________________
From the same webpage:
Javier Solana: "Syria, Russia and Iran form a giant triangle that is linked by missile defense. We should begin to work through this volatile triangle by working with Russia to resolve issues with Iran."
http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012/04/13-eastern-frontiers
________________________________
cont.
And now a little blast from the past.....
STROBE TALBOTT: RUSSIA'S MAN IN WASHINGTON
by Kenneth R. Timmerman
April, 1998
Missiles for Iran
A mistaken sense of priorities also characterizes Talbott's handling of Russia's transfer of missile technology to Iran, an issue he has tried to sweep under the rug for more than a year. Because of U.S. inaction, the CIA now believes the Iranians will be able to field an entire arsenal of long-range missiles equipped with chemical, biological, and possibly nuclear warheads within 12 to 18 months. If they succeed, those missiles will have Strobe Talbott's name written all over them.
Israel began warning the U.S. of these transfers in October 1996, when the research director of Israeli Military Intelligence raised the subject during a routine intelligence exchange in Washington. When the Americans failed to take any action, the official, Brigadier General Amos Gilad, returned to Washington in late January 1997 with a dog and pony show. After laying out in great detail what the Israelis had gathered from their sources in Russian defense plants and in Iran, Gilad presented the Americans with an alarming conclusion: unless the transfers were stopped very soon, Iran would field an entire arsenal of these new missiles, called Shahab-3, that would give it the ability to attack Israel directly for the first time. General Gilad urged his American counterparts to use all their political capital with the Russians to stop the transfers, but his plea fell on deaf ears. "They told us they knew of a missile program that was being aided by the North Koreans and the Chinese," one official told me in Tel Aviv, "but that it was not considered to be very close to success. What we were talking about was something completely different. These contracts have been signed between industries - companies - that are at least partially-owned by the Russian government. This is not a private operation by some crazy engineers. This is seen by Russia as a strategic option." And it was all happening with breakneck speed.
Gilad shared his information with key members of Congress, and eventually the word reached the White House. Vice President Gore made an initial query about the transfers during a February 6 meeting in Washington with Russian Premier Viktor Chernomyrdin, but the Russian feigned ignorance. Because the issue involved Russia, it was officially turned over to Strobe Talbott. According to knowledgeable sources in Washington and Tel Aviv, Talbott dismissed the idea that Russia was transferring missile technology to Iran as Israeli alarmism. "Strobe basically told our people not to worry, he was taking care of it," one senior Israeli told me. "But in fact, he merely swept the whole issue under the rug."....read more...
http://www.iran.org/tib/krt/strobe.htm
I meant to sign my post at 7:34 P.M. Sorry.
Susanna
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/08/look-who-funded-and-developed-common.html
the previous article compares the pyramid of the older and present systems. the first is, evaluation then synthesis then analysis then application then comprehension then knowledge.
The writer of the otherwise excellent article things the only thing that changed was conversion of some names to verbs, which of course made it look NEW and enables its acceptance but it is packaged with propagands.
I think that a problem exists built in.
The new system starts with CREATING, then evaluating, then analyzing, then applying, then understanding, then remembering.
The writer didn't see the difference. Evaluation is looking at something out there, not creating it. Creating, however, well, I can just imagine some teaching telling them that we create our universe and that instead of looking over an objective real thing, they should now direct their attention to creating what the teacher says to create, the thing being studied.
Or some more mind numbing buzzword lecture, or just the idea that we create the subject studied just by turning to the subject. (yeah, we create the idea of it in our minds, but our minds are not the universe, oh, wait, they new agely are the universe so they say...)
Then instead of synthesizing together all the information presented by the teacher (if this is math or history) or the thing (if this is some object or animal), and THEN evaluating the combined information pieces, the new system would have us evaluate what our perception has created, then somehow or other analyze it.
Probably somewhere in this step is something deranging to normal consciousness.
Beyond the point the pyramid layers appear the same. application - you run the program the math equation the experiment or apply some trick in handling body and tools in sports or wood or metal shop. (assuming they still teach those.)
From this comes comprehension or understanding, which is fine as far as it goes. Learn by doing.
Here comes the final kicker, knowledge vs. remembering.
Knowledge is a pile of facts that you may or may not have processed, but this assumes either way you have processed it somewhat. Knowledge incl. the means of processing and the ability to reexamine, reprocess, and correct for error.
But remembering, though it has its place in earlier stages as rote learning you then should learn to apply, is like slogan think. Sure you can recite 2 times 2 is 4 without having any notion of just what that means.
If your bumper sticker mentality is laden with good stuff, that will work. But if it includes some global warming caused by humans, pro Agenda 21, pro New Age, or other problematic stuff, this "remembering" will be the grid you view all other information coming to you later.
One is to remember and not reexamine the information.
Now, a lot of people can't do much else. So hopefully you can load them with key ideas to run on that will keep them out of trouble.
But the common core pyramid as presented here (which is not quite the same as the pyramid of values and subjects it is to teach about) can leave the kid loaded with buzz phrases that are wrong or set them up for wrong, OR INSULATE THEM AGAINST RIGHT.
This apparent mere redo is more than a redo to pass off a new program of teaching complete with propaganda in the new textbooks or whatever.
It is a style that in itself is problematical.
http://www.herescope.blogspot.com/
Without Attribution
Purloining New Age Ideas
if you decide to read later, look for this title in the archives.
Marilyn Ferguson back of Talbot (not the guy we just talked about) back of Missler.
get caught up better on current events and what goes on behind them.
"Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons[6][7] and to be the sixth country in the world to have developed them.[1] It is one of four nuclear-armed countries not recognized as a Nuclear Weapons State by the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the others being India, Pakistan and North Korea.[8] Israel maintains a policy known as "nuclear ambiguity" (also known as "nuclear opacity").[9][10] Israel has never officially admitted to having nuclear weapons, instead repeating over the years that it would not be the first country to "introduce" nuclear weapons to the Middle East, leaving ambiguity as to whether it means it will not create, will not disclose, will not make first use of the weapons or possibly some other interpretation of the phrase.[11]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel go to the article and scroll down for the sources regarding Israeli nukes.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/former-mossad-chief-defends-decision-to-defy-netanyahu-on-iran/ this article is his current opinion as of AD 2013.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/ex-mossad-chief-sparks-furore-by-calling-possible-israeli-strike-in-iran-stupid
this article says he left the post, but Jewish Daily Report is more honest. http://jewishdailyreport.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/mossad-chief-fired/
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j041502.html scroll down to our nutballs and theirs. you can find more information buried in some books and articles elsewhere.
It's great this blog is around to spread irrarional fear through misinformation and ignorance. Bill W. did not set out to advance the causes of the new age movement, oh ye descendents of Salem. He wished to free people from the grips of alcoholism and addiction. He knew that only the power of God was at the heart of this. The Higher Power concept was to invite people of all faith backgrounds--no need to convert to Christianity first. I'm sure Bill W. hoped anyone struggling with alcoholism could be free, regardless of faith background. He actually contributed to God's kingdom instead of going around labeling everything as evil.
Bill W. did not spend his life looking for the antichrist. Now, through Saddleback Church in California there is an alternative to AA. However, you've branded Rick Warren a new ager, so if anyone was to listen to you, Constance, there would be no where for addicts to go if and when they hit rock bottom. Oh no, don't seek help from anything--it might be new age. It's outrageous and nothing but paranoia, making spurious connections and believing them to be true. Even Harry Potter can't compete with this level of fantasy.
This is the bullshit.
"Bubba Netanyahu is pals with one of those dominionist and/or charismatic types, I forget his name, they want WW 3 to rush The Second Coming of Christ and some extremist Jews want it also to force God to send The Messiah. What does all that tell you?"
The height of insanity is Christine telling others about Israeli politics.
bill w, I agree with you about the origin of AA. And I think it has a potential for Christian evangelism as a tool of it. And like I said, I recognized its 12 points as detailed breakdowns of 3 or 4 stages of sanctification.
the friendship of the founders' with New Age leaders may or may not have been of a dubious nature. Maybe they were being misled a bit, maybe they were trying to witness for the historic Jesus not the New Age idea of Him. Maybe it was just one of those friendships that can develop accidentally, especially if you have a substance abuse problem and you are running in "respectable" circles that often have such problems but are in denial about them.
However, at present, there seems to be a shift towards "spirituality" and away from practical issues of health and so forth, and this effort to make AA available to unbelievers though good is also what makes it infiltratable. AA is like a microcosm of the world around you, which is often "spiritual" but often not really Christian.
This dispute here is like the disputes about sources. Some people want only a perfect source and if some website is a mixed bag of tricks then anyone who uses material posted at that site is automatically a New Age agent or something. One always has to use discernment, even with "perfect" sites.
And some people would consider a site "perfect" because it holds to notions that may in fact not be Biblical, but fit with their denominational background. I am sure in this blog group one person's perfect is another's idea of a mess.
Some people seek a safe place of authority where they can leave their brains at the door.
There is no such place, on or off the web.
Time for another piece of New Age information to be posted. http://www.katinkahesselink.net/his/influence-theosophy.html
Famous People and the impact of the Theosophical Society
da
Bill, you can get all upset that someone has pointed out information showing the link between the New Age movement and AA, and my response is the truth is more important than your exaggerated feelings. The purpose of this site is to expose the New Age influence on our everyday thinking, not to make nice with every New Age connected operation.
AA doesn't stand on its own. It is part of a larger network of organizations meant to move individuals toward acceptance of one world religion where God can be any subjective, uninformed thingamabob, including Jesus on some whatever level. Yes, AA has done some good, but according to what I posted earlier, it also has some very negative results, as all things connected with NA have.
Do we hear about the negative things? Not from the state media. Starting from truth would be a good thing.
I would appreciate your directing me to the names of the Board of Directors/Trustees of AA. I would also like to see financial statements from the main headquarters, not just referrals to one of the many "central" regional offices. I have tried navigating the main websites with no luck.
http://www.aa.org/lang/en/subpage.cfm?page=258
you probably won't get names because it is all ANONYMOUS. Always has been, this is to protect people who don't want social and business associates knowing they are alcoholics which could be a problem. Also, if you don't want to show "weakness" in public by admitting you're an alcoholic, you can admit this to people who are strangers, who only know you by your first name (which might not even be your real name) and therefore don't matter.
It is a total adhocracy and a group becomes AA by contacting them and agreeing to follow the 12 steps and 12 traditions and have their pamphlets, two or three people and a pot of coffee is all you need.
Anything can function as a New Age conveyorbelt, incl. churches with a bias towards contemplative spirituality or other crap. My guess is bill w. may have been a bit New Age foggyminded but forced to turn to Jesus of The Bible because of his crisis, and went from there.
When I first turned to Jesus for help on another matter, it was years before I got my act together to exclude all trace of paganism or whatever. In Bill W's case, he could have been going through this, trying to help others, and managing his alcoholism and already in contact with people.
The format of AA makes any direction possible, but if the members on hearing the personal stories and where they are in their personal working of their program from others, notice that those who take Jesus as their Higher Power do better at sobriety this is itself a testimony.
AA is a microcosm of society, and in society at large the same thing is true, people notice you are a Christian and serious about it (or not) and notice how you deal with life (or don't deal with life).
AA gives you a context to get support if you want it, but essentially you are on your own yet not entirely.
The network of organizations thing probably does exist, in the person (as most networks do) of individuals who are in AA and in something else. (and maybe be doing the evangelism 12th step equivalent regarding the something else, in AA. Mostly I would suspect through statements while a speaker, or while being a "sponsor" which is not required to have.
This is exactly the same situation you are in at work, at school, in your neighborhood, etc.
you can go be a hermit, or you can guard your heart and mind.
katinka hesse - Glory to God for this link, thank you anon.
Generally I pay less attention to names and individuals than to ideas, but this I lately think has to change.
I thought I responded to your comments Christine, but someone it disappeared. Then again I may have thought I sent it. It doesn't matter.
As a business, non-profits have to file paperwork. One of the pages on their site said that some were alcoholics, but other board/trustees were not. I would like to see the list. I doubt if the government allows them to go anonymous completely.
I was unable to find financial statements for the international organization. If you are able to find those, please direct me and others to that information. Sometimes, just as with many other groups, knowing financial and board information is very helpful.
And as for the Theosophical influenced people link, thank you for your appreciation.
why not just ask them? Also check with the IRS if they can't help ask them to point you to who can.
I am continuing in the morning on the subject for the past two weeks -- with much more information with deeper ties to Nazism than even I ever suspected. Frank Buchman, Sam Shoemaker were a part of the scene that led up to the founding of ICL. Interestingly, big New Ager Roland Gammon was part of that group which was headed for years by Richard Halverson, chaplain of the U. S. Senate. ICL was the parent group for the Fellowship a/k/a "The Family" a/k/a "C Street Foundation", a/k/a "International Foundation", etc. Another major link to both that crowd and the Lindbergh/Alexis Carrel crowd was Glenn Clark, founder of Camps Farthest Out. Everybody needs to know that although Alexis Carrel professed to have an end of life conversion to Catholicism, that during the Hitler years, he was a prominent Eugenicist supporting Hitler and he became part of the Vichy collaborationist government of France. The links between this and the Vereide operation do exist and are telling of Barbara Marx Hubbard's claim that "now all the resonating core groups with outwardly different purposes are merging and blending and coming together to do THE ONE WORK."
Join me in the morning, please, at www.themicroeffect.com. 10 a.m. eastern time, 7 a.m. Pacific time!
Constance
Christine, I thought that since you seem to support the AA group, well hot and cold, you might have the information. I hesitate to stick my neck out continuously to find information others can do some work to find if they want to know what is going on. I'm not being paid. I'm not a social worker nor a missionary with a goal to help others. It's not my "mission" to help people who are so sure they don't need to know more. Frankly I'm bored beyond words by the intellectual laziness of most people. At this point it's nothing more on my part than intellectual curiosity.
Constance, The thing about such Christian groups as you are looking
at, is that they MAY teach correct core doctrine, but then they LINK
that at some point to how to play this out in practice beyond personal
integrity and holiness, which is not
always such a bad idea, but you have to be very careful, because things
out there in the world, are often more complex than just, vote Republican or vote Democrat.
When they make this LINK of ideas to Christianity that have nothing to do with
Christianity, or may even be opposed to it,
you can end up with people who believe the right core doctrine,
are not technically heretics in the usual sense, may be against the usual recognizeable forms of the occult
and not even into contemplative prayer but rather, they get into
A kind of mechanistic almost militarized way of seeing and going,
and/or
make specific ethnocentric or nationalist or ethnic nationalist or even globalism with America or whatever the "Christian" group's chosen nation state is, the main way "righteousness" is to play out.
At this point you have a cult.
A good example, if you look closely as I have done, is the Serbian
branch of the Orthodox Church.
Another is the development of the right wing semi fundie but closet nazoid stuff you have been looking at.
The specific theology and soteriology may be correct. But there is a joker in the deck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Organization_and_finances
http://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/philanthropy/915-a-self-supporting-tradition-alcoholics-anonymous-safeguards-its-autonomy.html?gclid=COvv3-GV8rgCFStxQgodOCsAFQ
apparently they are pretty autonomous, though Rockefeller money was involved at one point.
The general view of Frank Buchman round here is that he hung out with New Agers both nominal Christian and non-Christian so he must be one of the former himself. That is a lousy standard of argumentation. Jesus hung out with sinners and tax-collectors; did that give him a propensity to sin and to financial corruption?
There is Buchman's quote "MRA is the good road of an ideology inspired by God upon which all can unite. Catholic, Jew and Protestant, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and Confucianist -- all find they can change, where needed, and travel along this good road together." But "Hindu" and "Confucianism" could perfectly well be proxy words for "Indian" and "Chinese", etc, in the rather patronising language that Westerners used three generations ago; and Buchman could simply be speaking of the moral message of Jesus, which is available to all mankind. The difference is that the committed Christian is given help by God to become more moral, whereas the Hindu or Confucian is not.
As for Buchman's comments on Hitler, I found this from Wikipedia on the "Oxford Group" which Buchman founded:
***QUOTE BEGINS*** Buchman was convinced that without a change in the heart of the National Socialist regime a world war would become inevitable. He also believed that any person, including the German leaders, could find a living Christian faith with a commitment to Christ's moral values.
He tried to meet Hitler but was unsuccessful. He met with Himmler three times at the request of Moni von Crammon, an Oxford Group adherent, the last time in 1936. To a Danish journalist and friend he said a few hours after the final interview that the doors were now closed. "Germany has come under the domination of a terrible demonic power. A counter-action is absolutely necessary."***QUOTE ENDS***
But to set the context, here is more from Wikipedia's entry on Buchman himself:
***QUOTE BEGINS***One quote in particular always dogged Buchman, from an interview in the New York World-Telegram, 25 August 1936:
"I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism."
...Garrett Stearly, who was present when Buchman spoke to the journalist, was amazed at the story which was "so out of key with the interview.... He said that Germany needed a new Christian spirit, yet one had to face the fact that Hitler had been a bulwark against Communism there - and you could at least thank heaven for that. It was a throw-away line. No eulogy of Hitler at all." Buchman himself refused to be drawn into further public comment, which he believed could only lead to more public controversy and endanger his friends in the Oxford Group inside Germany who were already facing difficulties.***QUOTE ENDS***
It is true that the organisation founded by Buchman, known as Moral Rearmament (MRA), eventually went multifaith as Initiatives For Change. But that was several decades after Buchman died.
What's my interest? Accuracy. I am not a relative of Buchman, and I have never been in MRA or Initiatives For Change, but I know personally and well people who have been, and so far as I am aware Buchman was a committed Christian who did demonstrably good work for Christ - read those wikipedia pages. Constance, you are an attorney, so you are well aware of the standards of evidence needed to make a case. Can you provide genuine evidence that Buchman compromised Christian principles in his willingness to work with non-Christians for good causes?
Christine, thanks for trying. Unfortunately, you didn't get any further than I did in trying to get specifics. Even with the $2,000 limit, any number of people could claim to be AA and with the secrecy of the organization, there would be no way to know the truth as to whether they were or not.
I don't think AA is in the same category as more open NA connected organizations, but I have seen that same level or secrecy with many of them.
Here's an interesting website that tells another side of the story. http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch12.htm
"Property and Prestige
AA is no longer run from the bottom up (the membership), it is run by a board of trustees bent upon maintaining an approximate $11,000,000 a year business and feels threatened by the free distribution of books by stating that this free distribution violates their so-called intellectual PROPERTY.
"AA is not now, nor has it ever been fully self-supporting through its own contributions. It relies upon the sale of literature in order to maintain high salaried employees, large comfortable offices, worldwide travel (paid for by us) and other amenities. Most of these sales go to outside enterprises and thus much of AA's income is derived from outside sources."
Any other reason anyone can think of to know more about AA?
So few people care, but here's some additional information. Discover the networks is an excellent site for researchers. Here is a list of organizations covered. Now where is the information on major New Age organizations? Probably in the file drawer with Obama's birth certificate.
da
if you have people contributing anonymously then they don't have any way to exert influence do they?
Whatever goes on with the non Christian infiltration angle, it would happen no matter what the management, because of the non Christian specific bias. And the sponsor function means someone who is mentoring in sobriety can (not necessarily as a deliberate evangelist for the New Age but just sharing what works for them) bring in a lot of that stuff.
It is this openness which makes it possible, and was built in from the start. If you want to reach people regardless of their religion or lack thereof, this will always be possible.
Individual AA groups can have a theme or a focus, I think there was one that had a Jesus focus in the SF Peninsula.
Here's the link. http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/summary.asp?object=Organization&category=
da
Christine, they aren't contributing the $2,000 in unmarked bills.
most likely yes. But the open freewheeling kind of setup makes anything possible. Incl. testimony about Jesus as being real effective as your higher power. Or witnessing for new age stuff. It wouldn't matter if management was fundamentalist Christian and it was totally self supporting. With that setup, you cannot escape infiltration. period.
http://www.usenetmessages.com/view.php?c=alternative&g=5090&id=255225&p=0
"Up With People! was an offshoot of another freemason cult, the so-called Oxford Group Movement, founded by freemason Frank Buchman. The
Oxford Group Movement is the group that started AA and twelve step programs.
Here's Up With People!'s current website. Note the pentagram in the
upper corner - that's a symbol to let other freemasons know that this
is a freemason-oriented production.
http://www.upwithpeople.org/"
Christine, I'm sure Constance appreciates your advice. After all you are so much more advanced than she is. I'm sure she will try to be more careful in the future. Right Constance?
"Constance, The thing about such Christian groups as you are looking
at, is that they MAY teach correct core doctrine, but then they LINK
that at some point to how to play this out in practice beyond personal
integrity and holiness, which is not
always such a bad idea, but you have to be very careful, because things
out there in the world, are often more complex than just, vote Republican or vote Democrat."
Here's another interesting piece on AA.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot090.html
he Religious Roots of Alcoholics Anonymous
and the Twelve Steps
by A. Orange
Chapter 3:
The Religious Tenets and Doctrines of Buchmanism
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
Dear 11:12am,
This is 6.20am who asked for evidence that Frank Buchman was multifaith. You repeat a claim that he was a freemason, which is a serious allegation against a Christian and if true would certainly alter my opinion of him. What is your evidence for this claim, please?
http://www.raptureready.com/resource/hunt/dh2.html
http://endtimesandcurrentevents.freesmfhosting.com/index.php?topic=8604.0
http://mywordlikefire.com/tag/dr-bob/
http://mywordlikefire.com/2008/09/24/seances-spirits-and-12-steps/
http://www.baptistpillar.com/article_728c.html
I have another source that maintained the same thing as Buchman did about Hitler and the writer openly says he is a Mason. As the above information is enough, I prefer not to give that information out as it is part of a much longer piece on New Age.
As far as the above links, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I doubt it is a lion. I do believe many low level Masons see no contradiction between their belief in Christianity and Masonry. Buchman, if the above information is correct, would appear to be at a high level.
"Francis Hartigan was the secretary for Lois Wilson, Bill’s wife, for thirteen years. He had many conversations with Lois about Bill. He writes, “[A.A. co-founder Bill Wilson's] belief in God might have become unshakeable, but he could never embrace any theology or even the divinity of Jesus, and he went to his grave unable to give his personal idea of God much definition. In this sense, he was never very far removed from the unbelievers.” (Bill W., by Francis Hartigan, pg. 123)"
http://mywordlikefire.com/2008/09/24/seances-spirits-and-12-steps/
WELL! I retract my agreement with the idea he was Christian.
And it looks like the weak point I have noted, and that another link calls to task, about "God as we understood Him to be" was not just a way of keeping denominational disputes out and letting non Christians work with this AA stuff, with unintended side effects potentially, but was INTENTIONAL.
Sure demons can make nice and help you with stuff as long as you stay away from Jesus Christ, I recall in my more slobistic days something was offering me to keep the house clean if I agreed to the thing, I said NO.
This may be another case in point.
"As far as the above links, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I doubt it is a lion. I do believe many low level Masons see no contradiction between their belief in Christianity and Masonry. Buchman, if the above information is correct, would appear to be at a high level."
I asked for evidence that Frank Buchman was a freemason, which you or someone else asserted above. Not one of the five websites you cited even makes that allegation, let alone provides evidence for it. They either analyse Buchman or they say that somebody else was a freemason (Bill Wilson).
Unproven! I'm prepared to believe it but I would require EVIDENCE - like they do in courts. Have you any?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Buchman he doesn't sound that bad.
I am not acquainted much with The Oxford Movement or its sumbolism, so I can't compare them to some occult symbols, but some of the latter are in fact stolen from ancient traditional Christian symbols for The Trinity.
this however is more important:
"J. C. Brown in his book The Oxford Group Movement says of Buchman:
He teaches his votaries to wait upon God with paper and pencil in hand each morning in this relaxed and inert condition, and to write down whatever guidance they get. This, however, is just the very condition required by Spiritist mediums to enable them to receive impressions from evil spirits. . . and it is a path which, by abandoning the Scripture-instructed judgment (which God always demands) for the purely occult and the psychic, has again and again led over the precipice. The soul that reduces itself to an automaton may at any moment be set spinning by a Demon.7 (Emphasis his.)"
http://sparklesdelicious.blogspot.com/2007/10/alcoholics-anonymous-new-world-order.html
possibly homosexual but this may have been a morbid misinterpretation of his avoidance of women to avoid any sin, and his concerns about young men's chastity, something derided by nominal Christians and others. Nobody seems to have
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot630.html
the most this analysis can come up with is that he was a latent homosexual at war with his desires, which isn't the same thing as a practicing homosexual. Buchman did seem to like to live lavishly, and had other problems.
The lack of doctrine would in that English Christian environment one that had to do with denominational doctrines (the sort that used to cause wars) rather than openness to non Christian religion. The focus was definitely Jesus, repentance and fighting against sin, and he may have overdone it.
The writer of the orange papers seems too hostile to "homophobia" for my taste.
So far I can't find anything estabishing Buchman was a mason.
Now 4:27 what would you consider evidence? Your question reminds me of another unanswerable one that was supposedly given on a test. "Define the universe and give three examples." Can't do it, you fail.
I know Masons who privately told me they were Masons (very low level I am guessing),and yet I couldn't prove to you that they are Masons. There is no membership list open to the public. Unless a Mason states for the record that he is a Mason, forget trying to prove it. There is a level of secrecy to certain organizations, and Freemasonry is one of them. You can only see what individuals support in order to come to some kind of conclusions. Buchman ran with occult and Freemasonry believers. The AA push regarding establishment religion is the same as that of the Masons. That is clear. Believe if you want that he was out to convert them over decades. I'm not so trusting.
Freemasonry hasn't interested me enough to do in depth research to the exclusion of other things. Based on what I am seeing lately, the connection with New Age people is so strong I should be doing more. What's the point though. It would take a lot of hard work and would only be of interest to me. Few people want to know think intelligently. They just want to feel good emotionally about what they have been taught and believe.
My library has contained the book Who's Afraid of Freemasons, a rather academic approach rather than a conspiratorial approach.
If you want to identify with people who channel and do seances and take a Freemason's view of religion, go to it. It's a free country. I'm not going to say you are a bad person because of what you believe. It's only on what you do that I would challenge you, and I have no idea what you are doing.
da:
If I had the time and money and other resources, I'd put together a "New Age" version of discoverthenetworks..... It's a great piece of software that it uses, but costs quite a bit, and of course all that data needs to be entered and maintained.
I've always loved the way it works.
"Now 4:27 what would you consider evidence?" [that Frank Buchman was s freemason]
As I made clear at 4.27, evidence that would stand up in court if he were accused of being a freemason (and if freemasonry were illegal). So far I have asked for such evidence and you have cited 5 websites, none of which even makes the allegation let alone provides evidence for it. Constance would make mincemeat of that if she were cross-examining you in court about it, wouldn't she?
"If you want to identify with people who channel and do seances and take a Freemason's view of religion, go to it."
I do not. I do not want to see Buchman called a freemason, which is a grave charge against a Christian (we agree about that), on the basis of insinuation and no solid evidence. What have you done if you are wrong?
4:45 So, answer the question. What would you consider evidence and how could it be obtained?
I'm getting bored playing intellectual gotcha games.
Dear 5.03pm, if you want to play sophistry about the meaning of evidence then look up a legal textbook or go ask a lawyer. I reckon you understand the practical meaning of the word and are trying to divert form your inability to back up your allegation that Buchman was a freemason. It is absurd that the best you can do when asked for evidence is cite 5 websites none of which even asserts that Buchman was a freemason. And you say YOU are getting bored with playing intellectual gotcha games? I trust Constance's readers to see what is going on here.
there are Christians who are masons and don't see a conflict because they are blind and take the ooga booga stuff as a kind of joke or whatever and just like the social network brotherhood etc. The Bible is on the altar, right? There are lots of Bible references in the ritual, right?
Buchman may have been one of these. I don't know. However, what is more important, is that masonry has made great inroads in this kind of dual membership I described above, among American Christians, incl. the Sourthern Baptist Convention, where the issue was raised many years ago.
Seems there was too much mason money involved, and though the guy who tried to get masonic membership declared unacceptable for Baptists had a large following, it wasn't large enough and the motion to exclude masons was struck down.
Anonymous 5:36
It appears you are unable to answer the question and continue to play gotcha games. As you are anonymous, as I am, what's the point. Nothing either of us has to say is important in the long run. You don't care what I have to say and I don't care what you have to say. I've provided what I think is important information. You disregard it and continue with your beliefs. Your comments are limited to Nah Nah Nah. If any of this matter to those reading here, they would add their own comments. You haven't change my thinking and I haven't changed yours. No big deal.
Marko, yes it would be very helpful, but until then we just have to go with the old fashioned way of checking things out. Unfortunately for the future of the US and other places, so few people really care what is going on. We can share what we know, they can ignore with simplistic replies. The crowd just stands by watching what others are doing, never taking sides
Dear 10.00pm, My interest is entirely in whether Buchman was a freemason. We agree that this would be a grave charge against a Christian and interesting in view of Buchman's trajectory. You wish to discuss what would constitute evidence, whereas I am content to leave philosophy to dictionaries and lawyers and get on with evaluating what you provide. Which has not been much, to date - not even one website suggesting that he was a freemason. Tell you what. Do a bit more hunting and then give us (Constance's readers) what YOU consider to be the best evidence for it, and why.
Impugning a man's integrity with little basis is not a minor issue.
"We agree that this would be a grave charge against a Christian and interesting in view of Buchman's trajectory. "
As I said, there are many Christians who are Masons. It doesn't seem to bother them. Why should it bother me.
Kind of you to offer that I continue to do more research, but I've tried my best; it didn't convince you, and so I must move on. I thank you for this wonderful opportunity to prove myself to the world, but that's life.
"I've tried my best; it didn't convince you, and so I must move on."
OK. Forgive me for not being convinced by your failure to cite even a single website matching your allegation that Frank Buchman was a freemason, let alone saying why they thought so. Given that you can find a website saying just about anything out there, that was a real achievement as a personal best.
So kind of you to be so understanding. So unlike your mentor Frank B. who accepted whatever one wanted to believe and think. That's your world. Why would I want to change you? You are a solo individual who has no impact anywhere. I'm not a Christian missionary into saving souls. If someone else is who reads here, I'm sure they will post. If no one does,you are on your own.
"So unlike your mentor Frank B"
Another wild guess, and wrong. I have never been in any organisation founded by Buchman (nor am a relative), nor AA incidentally. Why do you find it so difficult to believe that I am in this discussion for the sake of accuracy?
If you were a cub reporter on a newspaper you would have got a very stern lecture from a senior editor about the need for standards, before you got your employer sued. If you want to conjecture that Buchman was a freemason, fine - but say it is a conjecture, don't say it is fact unless you can back it up, which you have utterly failed to do. here's another piece of no doubt unwanted (but evidently much needed) advice: when you are in a hole, stop digging.
Yes, I'm sure you are so concerned about accuracy regarding Buchman because you are a purist. Out of all of the misinformation in the media, all of the misinformation that appears on websites, you have chosen to make your stand here. Good for you. Keep holding your banner high. Keep hoping there will be an army behind you soon. You get my idealist medal for the month.
"Out of all of the misinformation in the media, all of the misinformation that appears on websites, you have chosen to make your stand here."
As you said above, we are both Anon, so you have no idea what other blogs and websites I am involved with (I assure you that I am). But I am not ashamed of seeking to uphold standards here or anywhere else. In contrast I would be ashamed if I called someone a freemason - which I take to be a bad thing - but couldn't make it stick.
Obviously you are more concerned about labels than behavior anonymous. Obviously Buchman's behavior doesn't bother you.
"Obviously you are more concerned about labels than behavior anonymous."
That's pretty good coming from someone who has impugned a man's integrity and not even found anybody online who agrees with your assertion, let alone given any reasons to back it up.
"Obviously Buchman's behavior doesn't bother you."
Wrong again. Some of it does, actually. But I decide what to believe about him AFTER I've got reliable facts about him, not before.
there are people who are hesitant to attack Masonry, and cautious about anti masons, because they think this can be a cover for antisemitism.
But within masonic teachings, which granted may be ignored or not understood by most masons, are things that should make an observant Jew think twice.
(Granted such situations have occurred, precisely because of the Old Testament focus in general, and Solomon's Temple in particular, of the Masonic rituals.)
Masonry teaches that the proper name of God is "Jah-Bul-On." they also say that all gods are the same all paths lead the same direction.
The former is blasphemy, the latter only true if you are addressing people of a Judaeo Christian background and in that context.
Jah is the short form of Jehovah, or Yah as short form of Yahweh. Check your Bible, you will see this.
Bul refers to baal, the Canaanite word for lord, as opposed to Adonai, the Hebrew word for lord. The baals were the main opponents of YHWH and their cults the main enemies and seducers of the children of Israel.
On refers to the Egyptian city On, because that was the HQ of the worship of osiris.
It is easy to disguise baal as bul, and less easy to disguise osiris, so the inventor(s) of all this crap referred to osiris' city instead of to him.
So Jah-Bul-On is saying that Jah is the same as baal and the same as osiris, and all the pagan gods and the True God are just different names for and faces of the same thing.
That should curl your hair.
Christine, I am presenting another view. Most important is the commandment that a person shall not bear false witness. Second, a little learning is a dangerous thing.
Everyone encounters gossip about some group or other regularly. Just think of what we might be surrounded by if nobody trusted anybody except people like themselves, if everyone believed the gossip they encountered.
Masons, as a label doesn't bother me. Now if as individuals they behave in destructive ways as a result of their deliberate distortion of monotheism, well, that's something else.
What I find most unacceptable in them as a group is their secrecy. It appears to me that secrecy is the soil that evil grows in. From pedophilia to humanism to the growth of the homosexual movement in history to Nazism, secrecy is the soil in which everything disasterous develops. Even the secrecy of CNP, CFR, and AA makes the world dangerous. The New Age movement is exceedingly secretive.
After secrecy the next most dangerous thing to me is human mental laziness.
This website is about the New Age movement. The movement is destroying our civilized world, yet people sit on their hands claiming how busy they are and how they have already come to the perfect state of being so nothing more need be done.
Matthew 7:16 by their fruits you shall know them. I'm sure there is something equivalent in Judaism. God gave people brains and then told them what to do with their brains. Yet how very, very few bother to learn what the fruits are of all of these secretive movements. How very, very few can come up with two solid paragraphs of factual information showing the destruction being brought about by the New Age movement.
So simple. Don't lie about individuals and groups. Keep learning. Avoid secretive movements. Know how to recognize the bad fruit of destructive movements.
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