These are two Baptist preachers telling it the way it is about the deception that has the potential to destroy the faith of so many.
I do disagree with the part about the devil still being in heaven "going back and forth" for the reason that Jesus very plainly said, "I beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven." That lines up with Isaiah 14, "how art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer . . ."
Please watch it and Stay tuned!
CONSTANCE
117 comments:
I do disagree with the part about the devil still being in heaven "going back and forth" for the reason that Jesus very plainly said, "I beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven." That lines up with Isaiah 14, "how art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer . . ."
it would depend perhaps on what is meant by heaven, there being several layers. St. Paul speaks of the devil as "the prince of the power of the air." The highest heaven is not the same as the firmament or lowest heaven, our atmosphere, and so forth.
St. Paul mentions being caught up to the third heaven.
occultic connections to pre trib origins
"The encyclopedia in describing these occultic practices and beliefs describes what is known today as the Jewish KABBALAH. Astoundingly, MacPherson reveals that the Irvingites, instead of distancing themselves from this Jewish system of mysticism, magic, and outright witchcraft, openly embraced it. In the Irvingite's main publication "The Morning Watch" they actually tout the Kabbalah for their inspiration!
Britain, home of the Druids, land of moors, mists, and mystery; land of ghosts, leprechauns, goblins, witches, castles, and village "seers," people with so called "second sight," every little village seemed to have a woman with occult powers who could predict the future. MacPherson sees this in Margaret McDonald, the Irvingite who supposedly had a revelation of a two stage second coming of Jesus Christ. McDonald's closest friend, Mary Cambell, practiced automatic writing and telepathy. McDonald, herself, according to Robert Norton, her biographer, was into levitation. No, Pretrib did not come to birth in a move of the Holy Ghost as some Pentecostal pretribs allege, but is of quite a different spirit! Pentecostal pretribs need to sharpen up their spiritual discernment, can they tell the difference between the Holy Ghost and the occult spirit of clairvoyance?...
"Back to occultic and Kabbalist influence in the development of Pretrib/Dispensationalism. The occult beliefs and practices of the Irvingites were widely known back then. Darby and his group were not able to escape being identified with it either. I have in my possession, pages from a very large old book we came across a few years ago, "TEXT BOOK OF CHURCH HISTORY," published in Philadelphia, 1881. The book is divided into sections: Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and "Anti-Christianity." Under the heading of "Anti-Christianity" it has: Mormons, Templars (Masons), IRVINGITES, and DARBYITES. Now think about that for a minute! In 1881, students of Church history knew that Mormonism, Masons, and pretribism had occult origins, termed "antichrist" by the textbook (Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, was a high mason and heavily involved in the occult. Masonry is occultic and based on the Kabbalah). Pretribs were considered in the same category with Mormons and Masons! Pretribism had a real problem, something had to be done about this. Somehow Pretrib had to be disassociated from its occultic origins.
Beginning in 1889, the cover-up began. Enter William Kelly on the scene, the editor of Darby's works, a master revisionist, theological con-man, and huckster. By the time Kelly was through (MacPherson has found over 1300 changes he made in the historical record) Darby emerged as a distinguished theologian. Kelly covered up how the Plymouth Brethren stole pretrib from the Irvingites; severing every connection of pretrib/dispensationalism with the Irvingites and the occult. Pretribism today doesn't realize how much it owes to William Kelly. Without the clever cover-up he masterminded pretribism today would still be classified along with the Mormons and Masons. Too bad for William Kelly. The truth can be suppressed for only so long .
OCCULT-KABBALIST ROOTS
The connection of Dispensationalism with the Jewish Kabbalah is becoming more obvious everyday. Just like the Irvingites, Chuck Missler, a rising star in current pretribism, in his newsletters and in pretrib prophecy conferences, regularly cites from the Kabbalah in support of Dispensationalism. Like Britain in the nineteenth century, America no longer has abhorrence for any connections to the occult. We're not surprised at this return of Dispensationalism to its roots, since Dispensationalism, at bottom, is but the prophetic scheme of apostate, Kabbalist Judaism cloaked in Christian garb - and definitely not Apostolic."
http://www.apostolics.net/kirkland/crchhst1.html
http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html
"But now it's time to analyze Pseudo-Ephraem (hereafter: P-E), the name attached by scholars to manuscripts that were possibly, but not provably, written by the well-known Ephraim the Syrian who lived from 306-373 A.D.
And what's the discovery in P-E's early Medieval sermon on the end of the world that's led pretrib promoters to see pretrib in it? It's basically these words:
"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." A pretrib rapture is seen by promoters in the phrase "taken to the Lord."
It needs to be emphasized that pretrib in P-E has been palmed off on unsuspecting Christians by promoters seeing rapture aspects in P-E's sermon where none exist and by covering up such aspects where they do exist in his 10-section sermon!
In Section 2, P-E says that the only event that's "imminent" is "the advent of the wicked one" (that is, Antichrist). Nevertheless, Grant Jeffrey in his 1995 book, FINAL WARNING, had the audacity to claim that P-E "began with the Rapture using the word 'imminent'" and added in the next sentence that "Ephraem used the word 'imminent' to describe the Rapture." (If he and other P-E promoters can look at a coming of Antichrist and see a coming of "Christ," is it any wonder that in his endtime view folks will look at Antichrist and see "Christ"?
Ephraim the Syrian, reportedly P-E's inspiration, said the same thing (SERMO ASCETICUS, I): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear...." (Nobody's ever found even a trace of pretrib in this earlier work!)
In the before-the-tribulation sections, P-E mentions neither a descent of Christ, nor a shout, nor an angelic voice, nor a trumpet of God, nor a resurrection, nor the dead in Christ, nor a rapture, nor meeting Christ.
So where does P-E place the rapture? The answer is found in his last section (10) where he writes that after "the sign of the Son of Man" when "the Lord shall appear with great power," the "angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because the hour of judgment has come!" (Like Morgan Edwards and Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo-Ephraem has the nasty, non-pretrib habit of blending the rapture with the final advent!)" http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/2001_macpherson_deceiving.html
http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/Pretrib1.htm this is a series of articles with links to the rest at the end, including this
Is the pre tribber in danger of accepting a new age christ?
http://users.stargate.net/~ejt/Pretrib8.htm
Thank you for this...I am pre-wrath believer and get extremely frustrated with people at times
"Britain, home of the Druids, land of moors, mists, and mystery; land of ghosts, leprechauns, goblins, witches, castles, and village "seers," people with so called "second sight," every little village seemed to have a woman with occult powers who could predict the future. MacPherson sees this in Margaret McDonald, the Irvingite who supposedly had a revelation of a two stage second coming of Jesus Christ."
The nonsensical pre-trib rapture might have begun in Britain but it never went mainstream there. For that, take a bow CI Scofield, whose Bible with his own footnotes notes popularised the doctrine in the USA, where its main powerhouse today is the Dallas seminary. MacPherson is a good writer against this doctrine, although my favourite critique is "First the Antichrist" by Dave Gundry.
Leprechauns are Irish not British; the last Druids in a genuine chain of tradition died out in Britain many centuries ago; claims of widespread witchcraft were most common in Germanic lands not Britain; tales of ghosts, goblins and seers are low-grade occult crap common in most lands; and what on earth does the British climate and castles from mediaeval warfare have to do with this?
Apart from that, the above comment is entirely accurate.
Again you are short on history. The origin of the piece you quotes comes from http://www.whyapostolic.com/html/jewish-church.html, people who believe that Jews were replaced by the Christian community. Don't you know that it is straight New Age? In the New Age occult they believe that Christianity replaced Judaism 2,000 years ago and the Jews should have disappeared then because the Jews held back the progress of the human race.
Sucker! Sure, believe in their plans. Get rid of the Jews by replacing them with Christianity and then get rid of Christians, the age of Pisces, because now in the New Age of Aquarius the time of Christianity is also over, to be replaced by the New Age. Only you aren't supposed to know that part yet.
By the way, the Jews are not responsible for how ignorant people use the Kabbalah just as Christians are not responsible for how others irresponsibly use the Bible or Constance's writings.
I'm not defending the Kabbalah. I'm just letting you know things are much deeper than you even realize.
Vis a vis what happened to Satan -- is he still in Heaven, I consider Jesus the FINAL AUTHORITY on the subject. Jesus said, I BEHELD [past tense] Satan fall as lightning from heaven. The Book of Revelation was the Revelation of Jesus to John. John was obviously being shown a panoramic view of history to put the past and the conflict between good and evil into historic perspective as well as future events for which God's people needed to be prepared. The pastors producing this video are interpreting all as FUTURE EVENTS. The problem, as I see it, with their interpretation, is that if Satan/Lucifer is still there, then the more deeply initiated New Agers with their fervent conviction that by being for Lucifer they are on the winning side, can hold out hope they can and will win the conflict.
As I see it,IMHO, Lucifer has lost the battle, knows it and his end game is to deprive our Redeemer of as many souls as possible.
Constance
"These are two Baptist preachers..." I only see one.
replacement theology goes back to the early church, is the standard position of RC and EO but is open to nuancing and question. It is based on things in Scripture like St. Paul saying that not all Israel after the flesh is Israel but those who are spiritual Israel which he goes on to equate with Christians.
however, he also said we should not boast against the domestic olive tree branches (the Jews) that the wild olive branches (the gentile believers) were grafted in among, for the root of that tree holds us and not vice versa.
Title in this age to a piece of real estate is not the same issue as The Kingdom of Heaven in the age to come, so I don't see any real conflict between replacement theology and zionism, though zionism has problems (even in the eyes of Orthodox Jews).
New Age tends to grab all sorts of things out of context, like synergy and lately metanoia (the Greek word translated in The Bible as repentance, means change of mind not just whining and regrets without any change in what in the person caused the sin).
replacement theology would be a case in point.
Are you saying that New Age planners interpret and write about the Christian Bible for their own benefit just as some Christians interpret and write about the Kabbalah for their own benefit? You might have something there.
The author of the Scofield Reference Bible--Cyrus Ingersol Scofield--has influenced Fundamentalists with his
Premillenial Dispensation--In producing his Reference Bible
he "sought out controversial scholars Westcott and Hort" Look up "Scofield: The Man Behind the Myth"....also Joseph M. Canfield
who wrote "The Incredible Scofield and His Book"....Something unsavory
about the beginnings of Premillennialism....lym
premillenialism, as distinct from dispensationalism, is not pretribbism.
premil is Jesus comes back and establishes the millennium (actually His reign is forever, the first 1000 years of which the devil is bound so he can't tempt the nations at all, then let loose for a final test of mankind, there is a rebellion which is put down, then the general resurrection of the rest of the dead and judgement then the new heavens and new earth, see Revelation last few chapters.)
postmil is that the Church creates the millennium by aggressive action and/or converting the world, and establishes the Kingdom of God on earth, and hands this to Jesus at His return.
This is also called dominionism in its most aggressive form. It is without biblical support, especially since Jesus says "when the Son of man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" and leaves it an open question, Luke chapter 8 I think it is.
Amillennialism or amill is no literal millennium, a mere spiritual interpretation where the fact that Jesus's reign on earth is partly begun in the presence of the Church is taken overboard to deny any millennium. Supposedly the devil is bound now - yeah, right, why the office of exorcist then? why spiritual warfare then? the devil is crippled but not so bound he can't tempt the nations and even the believers.
St. Augustine popularized this notion. Though it resembles postmil, it is not as aggressive, though when running in the Franks dominated cultures in western Europe and Italy, it got militaristic and similar to dominionism at times.
pretrib - rapture as escape before the antichrist persecutes the Church
midtrib - rapture as escape during the persecution
posttrib - rapture to meet Jesus at His return, out of the way of God's wrath on the antichrist, and after the antichrist has persecuted the Church.
heretics have always twisted Scripture, and invented forged fake gospels and so forth. Ireneaus of Lyons in AGAINST HERESIES details a lot of this action c. AD 180, and you see the same thing now. New Age and some other groups like Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses (the latter a retread of most of the early heresies) do it all the time with channeled stuff like course in miracles and the aquarian gospel and so forth.
http://www.mycrandall.ca/courses/grphil/philrel/PDFReadings/Irenaeus.pdf
I think that is only book one, but it will give you a good idea.
http://aren.org/prison/documents/religion/Church%20Fathers/Irenaeus%20Against%20Heresies,%20v2.pdf
this looks like the entire thing
The way I learned it, just being the kind of creature that the Devil has become through his own freely chosen rebellion against God is Hell. Ergo, the Devil carries Hell around with him wherever he goes - as do all the damned.
However, the Devil has yet to experience the fullness of damnation which is reserved for the Last Judgement.
P.S. The Devil, as I have indicated, is not in Heaven.
But his not being in Heaven does not mean that he and God do not communicate. The Bible records communications between God and the Devil in more than one instance.
As you pointed out, Constance, Jesus Himself said:
"I BEHELD [past tense] Satan fall as lightning from heaven." Luke 10:18
From the past.....
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
Per Bob Faulkner: "Darby, Scofield,and Pre-Tribulation Theology": "Scofield included Pre-
Tribulation Teaching in his (1917) Scofield Reference Bible Notes."
"This emboldened many other saints to trust this doctrine as though God had said it Himself. There followed the inclusion of pre-tribulationism in the curriculums of well-known and
greatly loved institutions such as Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Institute...."
I recall reading something someone wrote about his experiences in fighting pretrib or some other false doctrine, and this guy said "its right in The Bible" but when asked to show where, he pointed to the notes Scofield put in the margins. This guy thought it was part of The Bible itself!
A study Bible should have notes at the bottom of the page, very clearly not part of the text. I wonder if the structuring of the Scofield Bible was intended to give such an impression. Just thought of that.
"Rapture" and "Tribulation" are not familiar terms in Catholic teaching...(thought the local priest must have missed telling us something very important!!) We were taught Jesus would come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom would have no end. I guess different terms / words are used to describe the same thing but what isn't acceptable is that some people have added or taken away from scripture which changes it and that is something we must not do. I also have the feeling there are powerful groups out there who are keen to emmulate what has been marked down in the bible,,,,,to their own end of course.
Concerned from OZ
To move away from the religion topic and back into the New Age topic, read this to see the connection between powerful New Age leader Robert Muller (now deceased) and the Common Core Curricululm
The place where I found the information was http://www.areweawareyet.com/30582/unesco-robert-muller-david-coleman-leftist-roots-of-common-core-education-policy/ Introductory information is here. It is a great website for information.
The main article is here:
http://cherilyneagar.com/2013/04/early-roots-common-core-education-policy/
Now now Christine, don't go patting yourself on the back for knowing how to write the words Agenda 21.
Anyone who knows me knows who posted this.
"To move away from the religion topic and back into the New Age topic"
ultimately you can't really separate the two. you can talk of the political side (as in focus) of the NAM or the religious "spiritual" side of the NAM, and in Hubbard the two are obviously together.
NAM is the latest move in the effort to revive paganism, whether of the "indigenous" false religion sort or higher philosophical pagan sort and suppress or co opt Christianity (the full outworking of God's plan that was begun in the Jews) that has been going on since day one.
Agenda 21 is an effort to act out some of these spirituality = get rid of humans (made in God's image) games of late in the political scene.
The only religion as Constance points out that is unacceptable is orthodox (small o) Christianity and the rest of the Abrahamic religions in their non mystical forms.
Mystical forms whatever their original legitimacy or lack thereof, can be more easily co opted by NAM because they are potentially more subjective.
reading Muller's core curriculum it doesn't seem to provide much to help the kid deal with life early on. A kid starts out viewing things from its isolation and starts learning skills, dealing with other kids, objects, etc. and collecting and connecting dots, so to speak.
secondly, take that list of goody two shoes agencies that are supposed to be for our good. The International Monetary Fund is a monster, which lends at interest on condition that the recipient countries PRACTICE AUSTERITY, i.e., cut out the social safety net and social services and everything that can help the poor and ill and so forth, to finance the payments back. This of course means more misery and death.
anon 12:48 I have no idea who you are since you are anon.
Catholics and the Tribulation and Rapture, maybe RC doesn't talk about the antichrist much, but he does figure in RC eschatology. Rapture is a translation of a word in one of St. Paul's epistle that speaks of our rising up to meet Jesus Christ as He returns to destroy the antichrist.
Yes He comes back to judge the living and the dead, but Revelation gives more details and sequences.
Chiliasm, rejected by the united Church before the Great Schism of AD 1054 (the term Great Schism is usually used by RC to refer to rivalry over the papacy in the middle ages), claims Jesus' reign would be for a thousand years, which seems to put a limit on it, when in fact His reign will continue forever, and St. Augustine rationalizing howcome the Kingdom of God was not on earth yet, combined to get the idea of an earthly rule of Christ undermined,
however the thousand years is about the first total binding of the devil so he can't even tempt unbelievers and so forth still alive or even whisper to any believers, not the same thing as the binding better term would be crippling now.
That lasts 1,000 years he is then let out to tempt mankind one more time, and after those who fall for that lose their rebellion, the devil is permanently totally bound and there is the general resurrection and judgement. The new heavens and a new earth, is where Christ will continue His reign with The Father and The Holy Spirit and is physical not some place off in heaven with the earth nonexistent.
RC and EO tend to focus only on the last point.
Good grief, you will say anything to be the center of attention again, sensible or not.
Indeed the New Age movement is nothing new; it's essentially the same as the gnosticism which the early church fought spiritual battles against - witness Irenaeus, our greatest warrior in that battle.
The letter to the congregation at Pergamos in Rev 2/3 suggests that Satan had his base on earth there - and it is where Emperor worship originated, which took a terrible toll of the early Christians. Interestingly, in the late 19th and early 20th century it was dug up and transported to a museum in Berlin, after which Germany started two world wars and perpetrated the Holocaust on the Jews. I would very much like to know if Nazi rituals took place at it. Hitler’s architect Albert Speer based a massive podium, from which Hitler spoke at Nazi rallies, on it. Its frieze reliefs were transported after the war to the Hermitage museum in Leningrad, and were returned in 1956.
In his Exposition Of Daniel, H. Leupold raises the question of where Satan's earthly base might have been at other times in history. I'd say look for the spiritual epicentre of persecution of Jews and committed Christians. I reckon it is the Kaaba today.
Susanna, I'd say Satan caries filth etc with him, but to say he 'carries hell' with him is a bit confusing. Before he was cast out of heaven, did Satan carry hell around with him in heaven? Someday he will be consigned TO hell (meaning the lake of fire; English Bibles have caused confusion by translating 'gehenna', the lake of fire, and 'hades', the abode of the deceased, both as 'hell', although the Greek and the Latin Vulgate clearly distinguish them).
As for dispensationalism, it should perhaps be set off against a covenantal view of the history of the peoples mentioned in the Bible. The problem with dispensationalism is that it never explains WHY God 'dispenses' his relationship with different people(s) differently. You are left supposing that He has moods on timescales of centuries. But once you understand that, for instance, He treats the Israelites differently because He has a covenant with them alone, all becomes clear.
If the New Age is nothing new, then why did Constance think she discovered something new in Christian bookstores that had books with a political message, research it, write the first book which was in print for almost 20 years and was translated into several foreign languages, speak on countless radio shows, give talks around the country, take seven years off from her law practice, write a newsletter which was ripped off by the Christian community, write a second book which required a tremendous amount of effort to publish, get criticized in countless books and places, continue to go on radio shows, and continue to research for over 30 years, be told by a New Age leader her information set back the New Age movement by several years and have her materials archived at the University of Michigan at their request. Just a quick summary.
In the opinion of the last poster, that appears to be a tremendous waste of time. She could just have told people to read the Bible more and made more money using her time as a lawyer. After all, the New Age movement was nothing new.
Frankly I think people who say that haven't read the description over the blog or it needs to be changed. I think people who say that it is nothing new probably know very little about the New Age movement and just want a place to show how much they know about esoteric interpretations of that one book. They feel lucky to find a place where they can brag how much they know about esoteric interpretations of passages in the Bible written by people who don't waste their time talking about nothing new. There are so few places left to do that.
Constance, maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you should stop wasting everyone's time talking about nothing new. Just tell everyone to sit down, read their Bible and trust in Jesus. Or maybe you can just mention New Age as a tag line. After all, some think it is nothing new. It should make a lot more people happy than the amount of people who really want to know about that thing that is nothing new. In that opinion, you were just fooling yourself by doing all of the things mentioned in the first paragraph that really were about nothing new.
Christine,
Go back to the 7:47 P.M. comment from the last thread. The 235th post, for some info on how to begin getting well, then getting a job! You will be happier then!
The New Age especially in its political manifestation is new in the past several Christian dominated centuries of Europe and America, and given our combined firepower, damn dangerous.
It is also new in its ability to infect churches long used to some degree of orthodoxy.
that it was new in her experience shows it revival is comparatively new, but it contains elements that have been around since mankind fell away from worshipping YHWH to worship false gods. Genesis says that in Seth's time, men began to call on the name of YHWH, which is similar to Ea the deity credited by confused babylonian mythology with warning utnapishtim (Noah) to build the ark, and similar to the most ancient deity in Egypt, A-a of course the former got lied about and falsity brought into the Ea cultus, till Ea was unrecognizeable, and A-a ignored in favor of the proliferating everyone else.
But Ea's name was still terrifying to demons. In the babylonian poem "seven are they," there is a part in this description of seven kinds of demons, that shows they are partners with all the false gods, but are AFRAID OF EA. What does that tell you?
"If the New Age is nothing new, then why did Constance [etc etc] In the opinion of the last poster, that appears to be a tremendous waste of time."
I am Anon@5.13am to whom you refer, and you misunderstand me. I have a high opinion of Constance's work. (If I didn't then I wouldn't spend my time here.) She is one of the Irenaeuses of our day. The Bible is for all times and cultures, but for that reason needs exegesis into any given culture by Christians living in it. In contrast, Irenaeus is of the ancient Greek world and is not an easy read today. Nevertheless the particular belief system he opposed, and today's New Age movement, are fairly similar to each other, and I believe it is worth pointing that out.
Surely you're joking, 10.00am? Traditional Chinese Medicine is as New Age is it gets, although a few herbs may yet to have their active ingredients isolated and tested and some might prove valuable.
""Rapture" and "Tribulation" are not familiar terms in Catholic teaching... We were taught Jesus would come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom would have no end. I guess different terms / words are used to describe the same thing but what isn't acceptable is that some people have added or taken away from scripture"
My brother or sister in Christ, in all fellowship purgatory is in that category. Try as I might, I can't reconcile it with the biblical post-death scenario.
I suspect that Orthodox "toll houses" and RC "purgatory" are different views of the same phenomenon, which I call the escapability of hell.
There is no Biblical or early tradition basis for purgatory as a place of temporary punishment distinct from hell in the sense of the unpleasant part of hades, as distinct from gehenna the lake of fire which may not even exist yet.
Purgatory would be upper layers of hell, and people in it who think to pray to God might get out. It may also be that some hauntings are because maybe earth is the interface zone between heaven and hell. MAYBE.
Prayers for those in any part of hell then would not be without advantage for them. An early Church Father on hearing of the good things about Trajan prayed for him a lot, and was given a vision telling him that Trajan was no longer in suffering.
Jesus speaks of degrees of damnation "the outer darkness" and some other condition "where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched" and there is The New Jerusalem and there are people who are kept outside. Just like degrees of blessedness.
Purgatory doctrine got started because of some things that were perhaps misinterpreted appearances to some pope much later. It is probably just a section of hell. And not inherently temporary, but more likely to be rendered temporary by prayer.
forgot to mention, Jesus also said some would "receive the greater damnation," so by definition this implies there are lesser damnations. Also, that Sodom and Gomorrha would have it better than Tyre and Sidon, because they would have repented if they had had the wonders done in them Tyre and Sidon had, and had not repented. God is just. Also merciful.
"Purgatory... is probably just a section of hell. And not inherently temporary, but more likely to be rendered temporary by prayer."
I'd rather debate this with Catholics - then at least I know where I stand! Supposing that by 'hell' you mean Gehenna, the lake of fire, and not Hades the abode of the dead until the Day of Judgement, then what you say cannot be right. The lake of fire is forever. It might be hotter in some places but there is no escape. And certainly not by prayer. We are judged as individuals.
I already said "hell in the sense of the unpleasant part of hades, as distinct from gehenna the lake of fire which may not even exist yet"
someone once suggested that the Lake of Fire will be created for the occasion at The Last Judgement. Whatever. The final damnation of anyone is not at death, but at The Last Judgement, when ALL will be resurrected in indestructible immortal bodies, some to live happily in them some to live not so happily in them.
Nice coverup of a foolish statement 10:11. If you were correct, that's what she would have written, that what is going on is a just a repeat of the past. She would not be wasting 30 years documenting what is going on now. It could have been covered in a long article somewhere.
Dear 11.42am
I am covering up nothing at 10.11am, and I stand by my statement at 5.13am. The lengthy book "Serpent and the Cross" by Alan Morrison is all about the parallels between the gnostic movement and today's New Age movement and is my favorite single read about the New Age (although Catholics will not appreciate some passages.) Morrison even dedicated it to the memory of Irenaeus. Just because Constance hasn't commented on this parallel doesn't mean it is not accurate; she is a lawyer and a battler against today's New Age movement, not a church historian. Perhaps she is willing to give us her views on whether the gnostic movement faced by the early church faced is basically similar to the New Age movement?
By the way 10:11, how will studying what Irenaeus wrote help people fight what has been going on in the last 100 years. What are the parallels? Based on what I know about Irenaeus, New Age has incorporated a huge network of information or organizations and individuals, much, much larger than anything he wrote about. I'm willing to learn more however.
Alan Morrison has been covered on this blog. Put Constance's name and his name into a websearch and see what comes up.
There are questions about him noted by Constance when she says take the wheat and leave the chaff.
Where did I say that studying Irenaeus would help? I actually said at 10.11am that he is not an easy read today. If you want the parallels, read Morrison - plenty of good material there.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/occult_character_un.htm
and home button at the end of the page goes to
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/wake_up_america.html
this is part of a larger site that may not be too wholesome, but pleases to archive stuff that is useful.
scrolls trumps bowls,
when you read "God's Wrath" being poored out, you don't want to be there when it happens.
Fortunately I know whom I have believed in and I am persuaded He is able to keep me, regardless of what some false teaching baptist "car salesman" tells me.
You didn't say studying him would help others know about the New Age movement. You just said that information about the New Age movement was not new information and that the best source for you was Morrison's book which was dedicated to Irenaeus. Saying Irenaeus wasn't an easy read is saying that information could be gained there by people with intelligence. There are many intelligent people here.
You wrote: 'Perhaps she is willing to give us her views on whether the gnostic movement faced by the early church faced is basically similar to the New Age movement?" You are the one who is making the comparison. Why not back it up with your own information?
Or, is it as I suspect you know very little about the New Age movement and just want to go back to talking about the Bible. If so, no problem. Talking about the Bible is a nice thing. Just don't blather about how how you believe the New Age movement is not new if you can't back up your statement.
Sigh. The theology of the NAM is clearly gnosticoid. The Bible is necessary to fully understand the NAM implications. The politics of the NAM are an outworking of their theology and intentions to put the world under the control of their controllers.
simple.
any discernment site can tell you that the NAM ideas track back to early heresies and some to paganism.
They CALL themselves New Age after having their forerunners hook us on progress and newness and evolution.
Then here comes this mess calling itself "new" and arguing that Christianity in particular, and Abrahamic religions in general, are part of the expired or expiring Piscean Age, and we are moving into the Age of Aquarius (a rock song celebrated this) due to the precession of the equinoxes screwing with the old constellation sequence.
Christine, thank you for the simplified view of the New Age movement which is incorrect.
Knowing what is in the Bible is not necessary to have factual information about the New Age movement. Let's say New Age is gnosticism. Generally it is believe that the gnostic movement was developed post Jesus in the second century. So how could Jesus and the disciples have spoken about what probably did not exist. The Christian Bible warns about paganism as found in the Jewish Bible and the New Testament.
Christianity was needed for the Gnosticmovement to exist. One could say tt is more necessary to know what Gnosticism is than to know what Christianity is. Knowledge of Christianity then could be needed to explain its origins and to some 200 years later and to contrast Christianity favorably to gnosticism with its many weaknesses. For this accepted scholars are needed to do that work. However understanding of gnosticism has changed considerably over time by these scholars. And these scholars are not writing about the New Age movement in the context of gnosticism. Pop writers generally are.
Why not just go back to knowing what the New Age movement is, it's history, its components, its networks, its proponents and its criticizers. There is enough information available for anyone with half a brain to see its dangers without having to compare it with anything else.
Then again that might take some real time and energy and could warn many about its dangers. Getting involved in pre-trib and post-trib and all other manner of esoterica only leads people away from taking the time to be warned. The general public doesn't want to take the time to learn about gnosticism long before they get to know anything about the New Age movement.
Then again, it wouldn't be much fun for those who only want to show off their knowledge as taught by the local pastor, priest or rabbi.
By the way there is no such word as gnosticoid.
Dear 1.48pm,
You wrote: "You just said that information about the New Age movement was not new information and that the best source for you was Morrison's book"
It depends what you mean by "new information". Gnosticism has been around for more than 2000 years but the New Age movement has its own variations on the theme, coming as it has mainly from Indian spirituality via the hippies and their spiritual children. There were NA writers in the West before that, such as Bailey, but it went mainstream only with the hippie generation.
You also quoted back at me my comment "Perhaps she [Constance] is willing to give us her views on whether the gnostic movement faced by the early church faced is basically similar to the New Age movement?" I did that because you said that if the comparison were true then Constance would have said so - a statement which is based on many assumptions, but which implies you believe the parallel is false. So I was wondering whether Constance agreed with me or you. I would be delighted to have her opinion, if she wishes to give it.
You also wrote: "You are the one who is making the comparison. Why not back it up with your own information? Or, is it as I suspect you know very little about the New Age movement and just want to go back to talking about the Bible."
Paul’s letter to the congregation at Colosse (‘Colossians’) appears to be a corrective to gnostic New Age beliefs, and one of the church’s responses was to collect the scriptures. The early church’s greatest post-apostolic warrior in this spiritual battle was Irenaeus, in his work Against Heresies. Gnosis means knowledge, so that in gnostic belief systems people seek salvation by what they know. That is why these systems are occult – the knowledge is hidden, and revealed only to a few initiates. It is also why the New Age is diverse – knowledge comes in many forms. But to be saved what counts is not what you know, but who you know – Jesus Christ. And his followers are commanded to evangelise, the very opposite of keeping it hidden.
I'll post some relevant extracts from my essay on New Age in the next 2 or 3 posts. For more explicit comparisons, please see Morrison.
Generally it is believe that the gnostic movement was developed post Jesus in the second century. So how could Jesus and the disciples have spoken about what probably did not exist.
Gnosticism may not have been 'full-blown' in the 1st century, but I contend there were seeds of it. Cerinthus was seen as a proto-gnostic, and Eusebius records an account of the Apostle John leaving a bath house upon finding Cerinthus there around 100AD or so.
There is not much known about Cerinthus, but it has been stated that Cerinthus believed the "Christ Spirit" descended upon the man Jesus but left him before the Cross. This idea comes from the Gnostic dualistic belief that matter is evil while spirit is good; therefore, Jesus could not have been both spirit and matter simultaneously. And, some adhere to this same dualism today in their New Age beliefs.
Irenaeus specifically mentions Cerinthus in his Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies), and he makes the claim that the Gospel of John is an apologetic against the burgeoning Gnostic (or proto-Gnostic) threat of John’s day. If one believes, as I, that John's Gospel was written late in the 1st century, this makes sense.
I mention the above in a preface to one my articles (with footnote references):
http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/bill-johnsons-christology-a-new-age-christ-part-iiib/
Above should "...Cerinthus believed the "Christ Spirit" descended upon the man Jesus at Baptism but left him before the Cross.
Scripture consistently puts fallen humanity in two categories, and Jesus himself warned that he would bring the sharpest division even within families (though peace within his own) – see Matthew 10:34-36. The parable above indicates that the church and the kingdom of darkness both grow, toward final confrontation. The New Age is part of Satan’s plan to drag our culture into the kingdom of darkness. Since the so-called Enlightenment in the 18th century our ‘Western’ society has been predominantly secular, believing it is up to man to make his own way in the universe by reason. Scientific law apparently ruled the material world, and the Enlightenment aimed to extend the idea to human affairs and create a Science of Man. Karl Marx’s communist system was one such attempt. Because it accepted the Enlightened view that man is perfectible and left out human sin, it doomed millions to misery. Western Europe and its offshoots, notably America, saw a different facet of the Enlightenment: an optimistic and energetic society in which it was believed that things would get ever better. Materially speaking, they have done – we have a higher standard of living and life expectancy than mediaeval monarchs. But the West’s optimism was shattered by war – in Europe by World War I, and in America by the Vietnam war. By then people had learned that materialism was not enough; the young generation rebelled against conformity to a way of life that had failed to fulfil their parents (although they took its boons for granted). Tragically, the churches had become polluted by the Enlightenment and offered no alternative. Fuelled by drugs and rock music and proclaiming peace when there was no peace, a generation of lost sheep, posing as shepherds, forged a new spirituality. They claimed to love everybody, but their personal lives suggested that they found it difficult to love anybody, at least enduringly. From the hippies in San Francisco in 1967, the New Age went mainstream in America and Europe almost overnight. Leaders such as Bill Clinton and Tony Blair were students in this era and were clearly influenced by it.
The New Age has shifted our society from an Enlightened optimistic secular rational view (‘modernism’) to a pessimistic occult spirituality (‘postmodernism’), although man has sovereign choice in both – from secular humanism to occult humanism. Science fiction bookshelves were replaced by sword-and-sorcery fantasy. The postmodern attitude mirrors Aleister Crowley’s intent, that “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”. This leading occultist knew that evil is best furthered by abandoning man to himself. The notion that we create our own reality is related to witchcraft.
The New Age, unlike the Enlightenment, is interested in the supernatural. Secular man, accepting the immutability of scientific law, will bow to anyone performing miracles. But Satan can do miracles – the sorcerers of Egypt were able to reproduce certain divinely wrought miracles of Moses (Exodus 7&8; see also Deuteronomy 13:1-3; Revelation 13:11-15). The Enlightenment did much to dampen superstition – astrology had always been popular throughout ‘Christian’ Europe – but it also fooled much of the church into vacating the supernatural, handing supernaturalism to the enemy as the New Age sprang up.
More coming...
PS The parable spoken of above was the wheat and the tares.
The New Age is hydra-headed as fads pass. But its serious movements all lead to demonisation or being cursed. This involves deception, for the initiate is not told what is happening, and the initiators might not realise that they have themselves been deceived. But whether it is laying-on of hands in Reiki ‘healing’ (in which the practitioner silently invokes spirits), or schoolchildren being told to visualise light or ‘energy’ entering their head (God is not an impersonal force), or interaction with ‘spirit guides’ or ‘angels,’ or teenagers joining in with self-cursing heavy metal lyrics or men taking Masonic oaths packed with curses (see the warnings at Matthew 12:36 and James 3), demonisation and cursing are taking place. These practices are entering schools, hospitals and management courses. Once a spirit is in place it chips away at its host’s life, mostly unseen (occult means hidden – Hollywood portrays it wrong).
New Age theology holds that man carries a ‘divine spark’ or ‘essence of god’. Humanity is supposedly moving toward a higher plane and a ‘new age’ in which this faculty is fully awakened and activated. This mass change is often described as a transformation or a quantum jump in consciousness. Many New Agers say that we were once in touch with this inner self but fell away; their notion of a golden age in the past or future has parallels with the biblical story, but their view of the fall-away and the restoration differ totally from scripture. New Agers may also believe that the movement involves successive reincarnations, or that we have evolved through several phases or races and the next age is imminent, corresponding in astrology to the Age of Aquarius. New Agers may seek to access their ‘inner selves’ through drugs, sex, meditation or other ecstatic experience. It is a dangerous and demeaning quest. Regarding drugs, the Greek word translated as ‘witchcraft’ or ‘sorcery’ in the New Testament is pharmakeia (a mediaeval equivalent is alchemy). Sex to this end involves use of the partner rather than shared intimacy; in the East it is called tantric sex.
The New Age idea that the divine is within all people is basic to Eastern belief systems. These suggest that man is divine, and ‘I am god’ is a common New Age vanity. Such systems nevertheless take the world to be illusion, because they provide no way of relating our perceptions to reality. They instead assert that ultimate reality is monist (‘all is one’) and is purely spiritual. The Christian view is that we are made in the likeness of God who created the world, so that our perceptions of the world are like his and correspond to reality. (Stripped of this understanding, Western philosophy moved down the same dead end as Eastern philosophy; the Enlightenment figure Kant was a key mover.) The biblical distinction between creator and creation, by which the world is neither divine nor illusion, is not compatible with monism. God cares passionately about his world (John 3:16) and man answers to God for abuses that pollute it. Also incompatible with monism is God’s distinction between good and evil (so monism leads to moral indifference) and between male and female (monism is implicated in the rise of homosexuality). A further feature of Eastern systems is syncretism; the 20th century missionary Lesslie Newbigin warned that an Indian told of Jesus might simply tack an icon of him next to other ‘Holy Men.’
A feminine principle runs through the New Age, related to pantheism (‘mother nature’). Goddess worship is associated with fertility cults and promiscuity. In fact scripture speaks of a feminine principle running through creation: wisdom. (See Job 28 and Proverbs 8, which portray wisdom as feminine.) Wisdom is to be pursued as a man seeks after an attractive woman – but wisdom is not to be worshipped and is not an end in herself, for “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Psalm 111:10).
More coming...
scripture foretells an evil one-world government (Rev 13.) A world government would remove the checks which God introduced at Babel, to confound an earlier unity of man against him. Its leader will be a man whom scripture calls the beast or the Antichrist – another false messiah, on a global scale. He will demand worship as a living god, bringing a heavy toll of martyrs (like the Roman Emperors). Worship of Lucifer/Satan will also be promoted (Rev 13:4). This dictator has a henchman whom scripture calls the False Prophet, who sees to the spiritual rather than political aspects of power. Antichrist’s end comes when he brings a vast army against Israel, whose cry for help triggers Jesus’ return in power. (Jesus’ bodily return is clear from Acts 1:11.) A key passage about the rise of Antichrist comes from 2 Thess 2:
"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion…"
Today you can see these prophecies nearing fulfilment. The industrial revolution has so changed the world that people now readily travel and communicate instantly worldwide. The word ‘globalisation’ is commonplace. Already there is a one-world economic system. These activities are taking place as Old Testament prophecies of Israel’s further return to its land are fulfilled – the fig tree blossoming (Luke 21:29-31), as Jesus put it – and when almost all peoples have been offered the gospel, which is the key sign of the end of this era (Matthew 24:14, from Jesus’ same teaching). Global conflict is brewing over oil and ideology between Western secular humanism and Islam, with Israel inextricably caught up. The New Age, claiming that all religions lead to ‘god,’ is a spiritual counterpart to economic and political globalisation. The idea that all religions say the same (unspecified) thing despite radical differences in their scriptures is diabolically tailored to today’s world. All who disagree will be seen as troublemakers; repressive and politically correct laws are increasingly directed against the peaceful expression of exclusivist faiths. Schools teach ‘comparative religion’ in which the criteria for comparing faiths stem from the secular humanist spirituality of our culture – which is therefore what the lessons promote. Umbrella organisations for religions exist, such as the ‘Temple of Understanding,’ and a ‘Parliament of the World’s Religions’ has met. (To whom are prayers addressed at such gatherings?)
The world’s main religions all have a messianic aspect. Buddhists seek a ‘world teacher’ they call Maitreya. Islam, which worships a creator god, and in its Quranic form is fiercely monotheistic, has a messianic offshoot called the Ahmaddiyas. They – and many Shi’ite Muslims – look for an inspired leader called the Imam Mahdi. Many Muslims look back to unity under a leader called the Caliph. The New Age is not hostile to Islam even though Islam is exclusivist and monotheistic; New Age is hostile only to God’s covenant peoples, Christians and Jews. As the main step in spiritual unification, after such exclusivists are out of the way, it seems that the world’s religions identify the Antichrist as their messiah, influenced by the tongue and the satanic miracles of the False Prophet. Even Jews and Christians may be taken in, acting as Satan’s ‘useful idiots’. Most Jews today are secular and the New Age is making inroads among them as Kabbalah. Jesus warned Christians that “false messiahs and false prophets will appear and performs great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible” (Matthew 24:23-24). The delusion mentioned by St Paul is probably that the world must be led by these men.
Nuff said.
Why are we surrounded by the New Age movement. I'll tell you why. Christians. During the '80s and '90s, after Constance's information came out, there was a blossoming interest in it. Why? Not because most people had any idea or did any research. It was because Christians thought it was a sign of the end times. That would prove to everyone that Christianity was the one true religion.
Two decades came and went. The year 2000 came. That was to be end times for sure. Nothing happened. Christians for the most part went back to reading the Bible and watching sports. Except for a very few people no one had studied the movement in detail. I would make a guess that outside the New Age movement leaders there may be 25 people who know anything about the movement without a Christian context, and with that number I'm being generous.
In the late '80s there were 3000 groups here in the US tied to the New Age movement. How many more are there now here and internationally. Oh sure there are some academics studying the movement, but only as a new religion. Christine attempts to talk about it one group at a time and then in a gobbledigook kind of way.
The political side of the movement is the main thing. While New Age leadership may or may not be involved in the occult, the "spiritual" side is being developed to help develop a common culture for a one world government. One does not need to know anything about Christianity to know the dangers of the New Age movement.
Almost no one in the general public knows what the history or organization of the New Age movement is or if it even exists. Ask a Christian and they will tell you it's something old but that Jesus will take care of it when he returns. Ask a Jew and he will say it is something that Christians worried about in the '80s, something about crystals, but it no longer is around. Academics may write about it for the general public, but only see it as a new religion which many people are following.
Those in the Christian community who talk about gnosticism only chase people away from knowing what is going on in the world around them. The general public is too busy to take time to learn about that strange thing called gnosticism even before they learn anything about the so-called New Age movement which they are told is just a repeat of something old which went away anyway.
Oh the movement could have been halted or held back when it was resurfacing if more people really cared. Now there is no stopping it.
History does repeat itself. The Germans, Christians and Jews, saw what was growing in the '20s and '30s. The history books say they were saying the same things as Christians and Jews are saying now. Then people got killed by the millions. All of the rationalizations for not learning what was going on and countering it didn't help. Learning Christian esoterica didn't help. Nazism had moved into the stage of being too powerful for individuals and opposing organizations to counter.
Jews and Christians had far fewer excuses in the last 30 years for not doing anything than they had during the time of the New Age Nazi growth. Then communication was much more limited between everyone and every place. Now that's all one needs is a computer and the ability to press a button, learn and then do something.
When we have to give an accounting for doing nothing, I can only hope God will have mercy. Meanwhile, almost all of you will go back to being distracted from learning what may destroy you though not forever Christianity or Judaism.
OK 5:56, if you can tie those abstracts to some concrete information you might be worth listening to. Do you really think abstracts are going to convince anyone but the choir that something is going on? I don't think so. All of those generalizations have been repeated over and over again and the reality of the New Age movement hasn't been stopped by one second.
Anon 6:12,
I'm assuming you, yourself, are not Christian by your comment. Fine. As a Christian my main motivation for writing about the New Age is from a Christian perspective. With that perspective in mind, I'm confident that God's main goal is in the saving of souls - not fighting the political aspect of the New Age movement.
No, this does not necessarily mean that we sit idly by and do absolutely nothing when there is something we can do - as God instructs. When Jesus walked the earth there were those who expected him to lead a political revolt. When He did not do that, those with this expectation refused to believe in Him. Using Jesus Christ is exemplar, I'm not looking for political overthrow either. I'm focusing on the salvation of souls for those with "ears to hear".
The choir has turned you off out of boredom. They have heard preacher after preacher say the say thing in print and from the podium. Those who are not into esoterica wonder what in the heck you are talking about.
And the New Age grows.
With all the anon comments, it's hard to know who's who; so, I'll hazard a guess that Anon 6:12 is also 6:22. With that presumption, I might ask what it is you are doing in the fight for New Age rather than complaining about others who are not doing things the way you perceive they should be done.
And, please don't give the "I've already done my part and I'm tired of all those who haven't done theirs (from my perspective), so I've given up" sort of answer. It's non-productive and you yourself are wasting valuable bandwidth here. Go complain elsewhere.
Dear 6.16pm,
May I remind you of something? The New Testament makes it very clear that the church - meaning the collective of those who know and love Jesus Christ (not necessarily those who "go to church") - will always be a small minority in the world, because of the hard-heartedness of fallen man; and that despite our best efforts a world dictator of sheer evil will emerge. So please don't grumble that we haven't "done anything". If you mean political action then I would have thought that the dismal track record of political Christianity would have disillusioned you that that was the right way to go. Our task is simply to stand firm against evil wherever we bump into it in our lives and to offer an introduction to Jesus Christ.
You asked for some parallels with the early gnostic movement, and when I went into the New Age movement in such a way as to give those parallels you grumble that they are mere generalities. I'done enough kicking the ball through your moving goalposts. What do you believe, anyway?
Craig, Jesus helped the leper. He didn't just walk up and say he was interested in saving his soul. Jesus fed the multitude bread and fish. He didn't just say he was there to save their souls. Do you need more examples of how saving the bodies of followers was also important, or are you just willing to leave that to the New Age government? People will sell their souls for bread if they are hungry, therefore it is wise to be concerned about their bodies also.
I know you are a favorite here so it is hard to criticize you.
That long lecture contains essentially what I was saying. The content and the politics. NAM is twofold.
pretrib however having occult connections (and peculiar help in getting it preached initially, I recall reading once that Darby wasn't that well heeled yet somehow got all the support he needed from important people and publishers), means it is of use to the NAM.
In Nazi Germany, misapplication of the Scriptures about obeying authority was a tool that compromised church ability to resist evil.
In this day and age, in America where opposition to evil has played a big role in Christianity and American Christianity looks to a revolutionary foundation of the country, pretrib hamstrings resistance by making it unnecessary.
This is almost the end, so we should just wait for Jesus to evac us. Also, it is pointless to resist the NAM politically.
Well, even if it is preordained to succeed, it can be slowed down, and some places kept free of it. And if pretrib is false we need to prepare safe places to run to.
sure, we need to save souls. there is hardly conflict between the two issues.
but in fighting NAM encroachment, there are some parts of its more obviously totalitarian format that make many of the more individualistic minded and peace minded and back to the land and so forth uncomfortable.
There are angles to the NAM that include dumbing down and health crippling the populations and massive dieoff, things that make health minded New Agers cringe.
Such New Agers, though they might be all for a peaceful (they think) one worldism, oppose predatory type globalism since it encroaches on some of their pet concerns.
And such people incl. the massive population of irreligious people can be co opted into working against the most dangerous physical side of the NAM.
Which is the point of many of my posts.
Anon 6:40,
I hardly think I'm a 'favorite' here; it's certainly not my intention to bring any sort of accolades on myself.
Be this as it may, I do believe if you look closely at those two examples you provided that Jesus indeed was interested in the salvation of both the leper and the multitude He feed.
Jesus was the "bread of life" offering Himself as the Supreme Sacrifice for those who would believe in Him. The feeding of the multitudes was symbolic of this (just like the manna from heaven in Exodus was a foreshadowing). Physical healing was not performed merely for the sake of healing; it was to promote belief in Him, which ultimately brings eternal life.
You don't write to bring praise on yourself, yet you do write clearly and bring new information making you worthy of respect. You, the physicist, Susanna. I can't remember who else is left.
No, he didn't do it solely to feed and heal, yet he did both rather than just ignoring the imminent reality of the situation.
"Physical healing was not performed merely for the sake of healing; it was to promote belief in Him, which ultimately brings eternal life."
yes but, The Scripture says that on some occasions He was "moved with compassion" as a motive for the healing.
The whole Incarnation was out of compassion [cf. Philippians 2:1-8] for mankind as a whole.
37 If I do not do the works [miracles, signs] of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works [miracles, signs], so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father. [John 10:37-38, NASB]
The works/signs/miracles are/were proof of Who He is, and this proof was provided in order to promote belief in Him for those "with ears to hear".
Mar 6:34 And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and was moved with compassion toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.
Notice this also.........
Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mat 9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
Mat 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
A mere "social gospel" that is only temporal benefit to men is aiming way to low for what Jesus Christ came to earth to accomplish. His Mission was infinitely higher....and therein is the rub....the secular and the new age (old pagan) idea is that man can find his own way (without the One True God)to heaven or oblivion (whichever he "likes" to fancy for himself). relativisms-not absolutes. mankind is always in a state of flux without Truth and the truth is Jesus came not as the "real estate king" or the "bread king" (you can fill in the blanks)--- basically what all of coveteousness in people want--"a health-wealth-prosperity king" (and whoever that is that will seemingly promise those). No, Jesus came as The KING of Eternity trumping the temporal.
A nutshell for everyone---it is far better to be forgiven than enlightened. Forgiveness through Christ's Cross enlightens everything.........
Anonymous 10:17 A.M.
You obviously have no common sense to be found. "Isolate, and test, herbs, because SOME might prove valuable"?????? Was not this our first form of medicine? Did YHVH make a mistake of some kind? 80 percent of all pharmaceuticals are synthesized from herb discoveries you moron!!!! The Chinese have been practicing for thousands of years. There are pseudo spiritual/religious undertones to perhaps every form of healing art? Probably the most satanized form being western medicine, which for the most part is based on synthetic chemicals that have a net negative affect on our health. It really takes very little intelligence to figure out how abysmal western medicine is apart from its usefulness in caring for the injured, and stabilizing acute episodes. Plus some necessary surgeries, and at times diagnostics. While non western forms of medicine have an abundance of New Age charlatans, there are many remarkably skilled in bringing wellness to their patients. The jokers in white lab coats for the most part are no more than pimps for the multi billion dollar pharmaceutical companies.
Never the less, a good percentage of folks on disability would much rather continue on with a lifetime on the dole, and their sacred little pills which never make one well, than to seek true wellness.
the social gospel was originally the slur slung at people who took Jesus' words seriously to have mercy on the poor in the horrible days of early 1800s industrial scene in the big cities. It later became a case of social work as susbstitute for Christian doctrine and of course classy and high pay charity organizations.
I actually disagree entirely with post trib, and let me tell you this one argument, see if you can overcome this, alright?
For the post trib rapture to be true, and as an example, let's say the trib kicked off today, or tomorrow. OK, that means 1. I must refuse the mark to remain saved (obviously), 2. Still live (which is impossible since I would be killed right then), and 3. Still be saved at the same time.
Revelation 13:5
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
So that means we would all be killed before the end of the tribulation, there would be no need of a rapture. I mean with all the Christians that refused the mark being killed, why would there then be a rapture for the living in Christ?
The only way the rapture makes sense is either pre trib or mid trib. As example at the 3.5 year mark the antichrist comes to power, and we get raptured either right before or right after that.
It says we will be spared from the "hour of temptaion" also, which to mean would be either tempted with taking the mark, or tempted to worship the antichrist. Sounds like true believers in the real Jesus will be raptured before hand, or at least in just the nick of time.
Then they will use the alien thing to explain the disappearance. Obviously Tim LeHay is a liar; he says in tribulation force, some people take the mark yet remain saved in the end, a total lie from the pit.
flaw in your logic is that we would all be killed and no "need" for a rapture. The rapture refers to those still alive at Jesus' return, IF ANY.
Daniel said that Moab and I think Ammon would escape the hand of the antichrist precursor, so that is precedent for safe zones he fails to conquer, and people have hidden in forests and deserts before.
the rapture isn't about "need" in fact it is only almost an afterthought, Jesus will come with His saints resurrected and angels. Those if any still alive will be transformed into their resurrection bodies and rise to meet Him. This all occurs when He comes back real obviously (see Matt. 24 and 25) and is to greet Him, not to escape.
This is a concept based on the custom of people going out to meet and escort a visiting (or returning local) dignitary to their city. It is only mentioned once in Scripture maybe twice, hardly something to base your worldview on.
getting saved from the hour of temptation, could take the form of dying before facing this, being given the power to refuse and die, or escaping the coming threat and hiding. during extensive persecutions before Constantine put an end to this, exactly all these options occurred.
Dear 8.52pm,
Your abusive tone dos not reflect well on you and some of your words put you in grave danger; for your own sake, read Matt 5:22 and reflect.
Of course many herbs proved valuable in the past and in cultures that did not know about molecular structure. Most of the active compounds in plants that have proved to be valuable medicinally have now been isolated by the pharmaceutical industry and have inspired the synthesis and exploration of similar compounds. A few will have been missed, and it is those to which I was referring. Your comments would have been appropriate at the outset of the pharmaceutical business, but not today.
Your intemperate criticism of Western medicine is absurd. Which culture isolated and identified bacteria and defeated a myriad of diseases - which still kill in rural China today - by means of antiseptics and antibiotics? Which culture has identified individual viruses and is now on the way to defeating them using molecular tricks? In which culture would you prefer to be treated if you suffer a ruptured appendix? What are the TCM/New Age remedies for those problems?
while I applaud your response to the TCMer, I have to take issue with this one point.
"A few will have been missed, and it is those to which I was referring. Your comments would have been appropriate at the outset of the pharmaceutical business, but not today."
a. big pharma charges an arm and a leg and you have to go to overpriced doctors to get permission to use them (prescriptions) mostly.
b. they miss some. For instance, valerian has valproic acid and valerianine in it. the former is why when you go to sleep on valerian you wake up perky, instead of groggy like when you go to sleep on valium. but also why you get jitters and even heart irregularity on a valerian overdose. valerianine is a valium analog. Of these, only valproic acid has been synthesized.
this is just an example.
In addition, many herbs contain a mix of ingredients and isolating one chemical alone may not be the best thing, because it may need the presence of the rest of the stuff to work best.
c. herbalism is done in simples, single herb, and multiple herb formulas, where the purpose is enhanced by some added herbs and side effects of the main ingredient, or of some enhancers, are controlled by other herbs.
of course this is nothing paranormal, though animist mindset ascribes a "spirit" to everything.
however, when I use herbs I try to go to sources that are more commercial than spiritual. Don't want to have to exorcise influences and psychic charges from my medicine.
A Chinese medicine promoting book or article I read a few years ago, said that TCM is best for catching things when they are small, or even sometimes before modern medicine will diagnose it, but useless almost for major full blown conditions. Of course these people knew about surgery and were using opium as a pain killer, but modern surgery is far better.
TCM diagnostics includes taking the pulse at locations and with differing pressures of the finger, that show more than just the speed of the heart, and correlate to various conditions, hence the ability to catch things early. That and other things like looking at the condition of fingernails, hair, eyes and skin in various locations, things you don't run into too much in western medicine, though they are catching on to such patterns. Usually it is only when extreme, like clubbing of fingernails.
I was treating my fiance's cellulitis because he didn't want to go to a doctor, expenses and no insurance, but he finally went to the ER. In the first three days, I brought the fever and leg swelling down, and the hot feel to the touch of the foot and leg. (the latter disappeared first.) I was using Black Cumin Seed capsules, yarrow, 10,000 mg Vit. C and other stuff also some iodex on the leg. This takes iodine through the skin into the infection.
But he hates taking pills, so finally went to the ER, after which the cellulitis got a bit worse, but is getting better and he is taking the iodex goop on his leg again. I don't dare mix herbs with sulfa drugs, so have to wait.
IF he had been willing to take three times the amount of pills he was taking (and tolerate the vile tasting oil of oregano on his tongue more than once) he would probably be well by now. But thank God for western medicine, because it can do stuff with fewer pills and less gross taste than traditional medicine.
Not saying that medicines/medicine (east and west-in the many forms-coming from natural wisdom from God) does not have it's place..of course it does..but....Jesus' prescription is much much better from a first place standpoint for our understanding as Ultimate Wisdom to find the cures for our physical and/or emotional ills/depressions/heavy-heartedness/waywardness/self-absorptions, etc......
Come unto Me, all who labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take-My-yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. Matt 11:28-30.
Not overly simplistic as some may think...
indeed, looking back a series of nervous breakdowns over the past decades, I am always amazed at how much I got done during those times, but then I was always praising Jesus under my breath or in my mind.
Anonymous 5:13 A.M.
I did preface my comment with "the way I learned it."
And the way I learned it, in addition to being a place, Hell is first and foremost a state of being.
It is in this sense of Hell as a state of being that the Devil "carries Hell around with him wherever he goes."
Before the devil was cast out of heaven, he had not yet rebelled and was not yet a fallen angel. Immediately after he rebelled he was cast out.
So asking if the Devil carried Hell with him when he was in Heaven does not make sense. Before the devil rebelled, there was no Hell to be carried around by anyone.
I understand and respect that your beliefs about Hell may be a little different than mine, but my point was to communicate my agreement with Constance....namely, that wherever else he may be, the one place where the Devil is not is in Heaven.
Susanna,
I'd forgotten that you believed that about hell. I understand why you wrote that now. I respectfully disagree, though - can your viewpoint explain why the fire was "PREPARED for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41) ?
Anonymous 4:14
I can only explain what I believe as a Catholic. I understand and respect your choice to agree or disagree.
The reason why God created Hell for the devil and his angels is because they were the first of God's rational creatures to rebel against Him.
The Devil, moreover, was not tempted by anyone else. He sinned of himself.
The other angels who rebelled followed the Devil.
Since Hell is the consequence of unrepented evildoing, the creation of hell would have logically occurred at the moment the devil and his angels rebelled, because before the angelic revolt, creation was perfectly pure and good and beautiful and the creation of hell at that point would not have made sense.
Since evil came to Earth through the devil, ( Adam and Eve did not sin of themselves as did the devil ) those of the human race who imitate the diabolic attitude to "be as gods" by succumbing to the temptations of the Devil and not repenting are doomed to join the Devil in his infernal abode.
Theologically speaking, God did not "throw out" the disobedient angels. They chose to separate themselves from him. Given their superior intelligence and pure spiritual nature, their choice was permanent.
The permanent, irrevocable choice to oppose God is the very essence of hell. For humans this final, permanent, irrevocable choice is made at death.
What this means is that God did not directly create hell, he only allows for its possibility as a consequence of his choice to give angels and humans the gift of free will. In order for free will truly to be free, it must include the possibility that the free person can choose to reject God.
That rejection of God on the part of the angels is what created hell.
Susanna,
You say that hell IS the consequence of unrepented evildoing, but I believe that consignment TO hell is its consequence. I guess the last question I have on this subject is: Why does the NT, over and over again, use the language of PHYSICAL separation to denote hell? Why say near the end of Revelation that evildoers are outside the celestial city whereas the forgiven are inside? If hell is really the experience of God and his shekinah glory as experienced by those who hate him, as I think you believe, then why not just say so in the NT? It's a concept that would have been fully comprehensible to the audiences of 2000 years ago.
the idea that the evil inclined dislike the presence of God and the good inclined like the presence of God is true enough but does not go far enough. It is at most a starting point.
these ideas that weaken doctrines are cropping up in Orthodoxy as well, and
regardless of the context, Orthodox RC or protestant, one of the best counters to it is Vladimir Moss' writings. Here is one
http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/downloads/311_THE_NEW_SOTERIOLOGY.pdf
Dear Anonymous 6:07 P.M.
This is exactly the problem with the "Sola Scriptura" rule of faith and a literal interpretation.....although I would like to know where in the Bible either is mandated.
Nevertheless, it is to be commended that you are defending the sovereignty of God with regard to the doctrine of Hell.
Bravo!!!
But God's sovereignty is not diminished by saying that the damned have CHOSEN their damnation....if only because it is God who has endowed his rational creatures with the gift of free will.
God DOES send unrepentant evildoers to Hell....but He does so indirectly by creating his creatures in such a way that the consequence of their free rejection of their Creator IS Hell.
Susanna,
While I agree that the effects of your view of hell and mine are the same, I don't see an answer to my question in your response. We can discuss meta-questions relating to sola scriptura and hermeneutics if you wish, but my specific question remains: If hell is really the experience of God (and his shekinah glory) by those who hate him, then why did Jesus and Paul and others not say so explicitly in the NT? It would have been fully comprehensible to their audiences, yet the NT, every time, uses the imagery of physical separation to describe hell.
My brother or sister in Christ, in all fellowship purgatory is in that category. Try as I might, I can't reconcile it with the biblical post-death scenario.
10:39 AM
Hello Anon 10:39am , yes I see your point (re purgatory) and its fair enough that you can't reconcile it with the biblical post-death scenario. Purgatory is another one of those 'sticky' issues. I guess the various christian denominations have their differences but as a whole I believe its really important that those who believe in God stand their ground, as a whole, because the way the world is turning we will need to be united (and I don't mean as one whole new religion, or church or belief system as some are trying to encourage). It seems that even using the word God these days is frowned upon for fear of offending someone ! The "new age" is very real, very broad and all encompassing. It has a stranglehold in society at this point. Its nice to have a place like Constance's blog where people can be updated on some of the many issues tied to this New Age dilemma.
Concerned from Oz
Anonymous 3:33
If hell is really the experience of God (and his shekinah glory) by those who hate him, then why did Jesus and Paul and others not say so explicitly in the NT?
It would have been fully comprehensible to their audiences, yet the NT, every time, uses the imagery of physical separation to describe hell.
To be perfectly honest, I don't know why they did not say so explicitly in the New Testament.
But for me, the Bible is not my only source of Christian truth. My Rule of Faith is Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Therefore, I do not expect everything to be explicitly stated in Scripture like you seem to.
And please do not think that I am saying this in any way to be snarky or disrespectful.....I am just pointing out the truth.
The Bible doesn't explicitly use the word "Trinity" either and yet this is one of the central tenets of our faith.
If you ask me questions about the Christian faith always expecting me to answer them according to your rule of Faith, we need to be aware that we are simply not going to agree on everything.
Susanna,
Things ARE explicitly stated in scripture about the subject. I simply wonder what a neutral reader who looks at the relevant scriptures and then considers your interpretation vs mine would prefer. I suspect that behind your view is the philosophical preconception that omnipresence is an intrinsic property of God. If so, you win for sure. But maybe God is everywhere that He chooses to be.
The people perish without a Vision,Proverbs.A remedy to this is a focus upon what has always been given in plain sight.Love God, and serve Him alone, live by His Word &bread,do not tempt God.These responses spoken by the Word of God, Jesus Christ, are the Will of the Only Holy One, Our Father in Heaven. If we respond in loving obedience as the Christ did to the same temptations the Christ was confronted with, we maintain spiritual in the only 3 relationships that contain spiritual life. Man to man, man's spiritual nature to his physical nature, and God to man.
The great whore is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, because HERE, mankind begins to serve itself, departing from the Vision, which is the Way of Peace.This begins a process that pits man against man in fierce competitions for worldly gain, ending in making desolate the spiritual relationship of man to his fellow man in a world wide cultural mindset.
The beast is built by living for bread alone, ignoring the Royal Law in persute for material gain.Materalism in a word.This seeking coresponds with the economic system and makes desolate the relationship of the spiritual nature of man to his body, desolating the spirit.
These interpetations of symbolism contained in Revelation are precise in thier meaning, as now the great whore riding the beast means the world culture rides upon the economic system which goes into perdion.Buying and sell are economic functions, concerning the mark of the beast and can be rightly associated with the economic system.
Accepting occult/demonic/dragon spiritual power, rather than the Holy Spirit, tempts God.This makes desolate the relationship of God to man.Mankind will be cut off from the Only Holy One, but those in the Body of Christ will not be cut off from the Christ as He is with us unto the end of the age.
This final relationship made desolate is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the Christ and the prophet Daniel.
No onw will match this wisdom, with the Truth, as Truth would only just be repeating Itself, or any lie. This is proven by the commonsense that can give the right answer to the question, can you kill a dead horse? No, the horse has to be alive, and so does the spirit in the soul.It is just commonsense, and was written so the reader will understand it.As Christianity has no definition of what the abomination of desolation is, I sought to discover it, and I have successfully done so.
I will post my writing on the Holy Place, very soon here.It is all over the internet bit in blog form. I would take days to find all the site that contain the whole explaination. They only give you 500 letters to work with.
God can be omnipresent, and still there be various locations not all of which are comfortable for most life forms. Consider boiling geysers and volcanos. God's omnipresence does not have to be questioned, to recognize that one's experience of those locations would be unpleasant absent a special miracle.
Anonymous 12:54 P.M.
Re:Things ARE explicitly stated in scripture about the subject.
Then why did you just ask me why they were not at 12:38P.M. when you wrote:
If hell is really the experience of God (and his shekinah glory) by those who hate him, then why did Jesus and Paul and others not say so explicitly in the NT?
I not only believe that God is omnipresent in an ontological sense, but I also believe that
God is indeed everywhere that He chooses to be.
But that does not necessarily mean that He is everywhere that WE choose Him to be with regard to interpreting the Scriptures.
The Spirit blows wherever He will but never in a disorderd contradictory way.
the question was rhetorical to make you think twice. What IS EXPLICITLY STATE IN SCRIPTURE is that hell is a place the evil get sent to at the Last Judgement, and some predecessor of it a place they are usually sent to some degree before that.
her whole point was that the idea that you are presenting is NOT explicitly stated in Scripture.
Sure you can argue the evil choose hell, when they prefer the actions and mental precursors to actions that will bring them to hell eventually, but that is the same as saying that those who keep robbing are choosing prison IN EFFECT.
Proverbs speaks of those who lay in wait for innocent blood laying in wait for their own blood, because of consequences that will eventually overtake them, whether from the hand of man or something God arranges in this life or later.
(paraphrase on that Proverbs thing.)
Choose the ways of hell long enough, you end up in hell. Either by direct punishment or just being allowed to be grabbed by demons at death who are always out to torment mankind, not because they hate our sins which they encourage, but they encourage them to estrange us from God Who protects us from them.
Susanna (at 2.34pm),
The things that are stated explicitly about hell in the NT are that it has a location in spiritual space (as it were - the space in which the angel was held up on the way to Daniel in ch.10). So far as I am concerned the answer to the question I asked you, "If hell is really the experience of God (and his shekinah glory) by those who hate him, then why did Jesus and Paul and others not say so explicitly in the NT?", is: "Yes, they would have been explicit in saying that hell was like that if it really was - so I guess it isn't." you didn't go down that road, which is your freedom.
"I not only believe that God is omnipresent in an ontological sense, but I also believe that
God is indeed everywhere that He chooses to be."
I find that confusing, so please help me understand - Do you believe God can choose NOT to be somewhere? (Hopefully that's capable of a Yes/No answer before any explanation...)
No. God cannot contradict Himself. In the sense that God is absolute self existent uncreated Being, ( Exodus 3:14 ) He cannot choose NOT to be somewhere. God, Who is Being necessarily exists and everything else that exists, exists in Him.
If God did not consciously maintain each and every one of us us in existence for a split second, we would cease to be.
However, He can choose "not to be somewhere" from the point of view of His not revealing His presence.....
God omnipresent
Question: "What does it mean that God is omnipresent?"
Answer: The prefix omni- comes from the Latin meaning “all.” So, to say that God is omnipresent is to say that God is present everywhere. In many religions, God is regarded as omnipresent, whereas in both Judaism and Christianity, this view is further subdivided into the transcendence and immanence of God. Although God is not totally immersed in the fabric of creation (pantheism), He is present everywhere at all times.
God's presence is continuous throughout all of creation, though it may not be revealed in the same way at the same time to people everywhere. At times, He may be actively present in a situation, while He may not reveal that He is present in another circumstance in some other area. The Bible reveals that God can be both present to a person in a manifest manner (Psalm 46:1; Isaiah 57:15) and present in every situation in all of creation at any given time (Psalm 33:13-14). Omnipresence is God's characteristic of being present to all ranges of both time and space. Although God is present in all time and space, God is not locally limited to any time or space. God is everywhere and in every now. No molecule or atomic particle is so small that God is not fully present to it, and no galaxy so vast that God does not circumscribe it. But if we were to remove creation, God would still know of it, for He knows all possibilities, whether they are actual or not.
cont...
cont...
God is naturally present in every aspect of the natural order of things, in every manner, time and place (Isaiah 40:12; Nahum 1:3). God is actively present in a different way in every event in history as provident guide of human affairs (Psalm 48:7; 2 Chronicles 20:37; Daniel 5:5-6). God is in a special way attentively present to those who call upon His name, who intercede for others, who adore God, who petition, and who pray earnestly for forgiveness (Psalm 46:1). Supremely, He is present in the person of His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:19), and mystically present in the universal church that covers the earth and against which the gates of hell will not prevail.
Just as the omniscience of God suffers apparent paradoxes due to the limitations of the human mind, so does the omnipresence of God. One of these paradoxes is important: the presence of God in hell, that place unto which the wicked are departed and suffer the unlimited and unceasing fury of God because of their sin. Many argue that hell is a place of separation from God (Matthew 25:41), and if so, then God cannot be said to be in a place that is separated from Him. However, the wicked in hell endure His everlasting anger, for Revelation 14:10 speaks of the torment of the wicked in the presence of the Lamb. That God should be present in a place that the wicked are said to be departed unto does cause some consternation. However, this paradox can be explained by the fact that God can be present—because He fills all things with His presence (Colossians 1:17) and upholds everything by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:3)—yet He is not necessarily everywhere to bless.
Just as God is sometimes separated from His children because of sin (Isaiah 52:9), and He is far from the wicked (Proverbs 15:29) and orders the godless subjects of darkness to depart at the end of time to a place of eternal punishment, God is still there in the midst. He knows what those souls suffer who are now in hell; He knows their anguish, their cries for respite, their tears and grief for the eternal state that they find themselves in. He is there in every way as a perpetual reminder to them of their sin which has created a chasm from every blessing that might be otherwise granted. He is there in every way, but He displays no attribute other than His wrath.
Likewise, He will also be in heaven, manifesting every blessing that we cannot even begin to comprehend here; He will be there displaying His manifold blessing, His manifold love, and His manifold kindness—indeed, everything other than His wrath. The omnipresence of God should serve to remind us that we cannot hide from God when we have sinned (Psalm 139:11-12), yet we can return to God in repentance and faith without even having to move (Isaiah 57:16).
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-omnipresent.html
I submit that anyone adhering to the doctrine that hell is a state rather than a place would have to reconcile that with the teaching of the Rich Man and Lazarus [Luke 16:19-31]:
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
If one construes the “great gulf” as merely metaphorical, it would seem one would have to consider “Abraham’s bosom” as a state also. In any case, this would also have to be reconciled with Hebrews 11, I’d think.
Regarding omnipresence, I particularly like the way in which Thomas V. Morris [The Logic of God Incarnate. 1986, Cornell University Press, Ithaca, NY & London, UK] describes omnipresence with its close dependence on the other two ‘omni’ attributes and vice versa: “Perhaps the best understanding of the attribute of omnipresence is that of its being the property of being present everywhere in virtue of knowledge of and power over any and every spatially located object” [p 91].
Susanna,
This omnipresence issue is less closely connected to the hell-interpretation issue than I had realised, and while we differ on the interpretation of hell (though agreeing on its effect) I am grateful for that clarification.
You also wrote above: "God, Who is Being necessarily exists and everything else that exists, exists in Him."
God's creation is in God? I though we were discussing whether God was in all parts of his creation. If God is omnipresent as you say then he would be in all parts of his creation; yet your quote above suggests that all parts of his creation are in him. If A is wholly in B and B is wholly in A then A and B are equivalent, but that would imply pantheism. Comments welcome!
water contains the fish and is in the fish. Water is not the same as the fish.
St. Paul in Acts speaks of "in Him we live and move and have our being," and somewhere in the OT there is some reference to God filling and containing all things. God being infinite this makes sense. There may be a core point His Throne but His consciousness at least is everywhere. This is not pantheism, because an absolute distinction remains between God and the things He fills and/or contains.
Anonymous 5:52
Yes I wrote: "God, Who is Being necessarily exists and everything else that exists, exists in Him."
I should have added ....everything else that exists, exists in Him by way of partitipation in God"s existence.
If all creation is "in God," then how can God not be in all parts of His creation.
The difficulty in saying that God is in all parts of his creation without further qualification is that some might be led to embrace pantheism - according to which, everything in the universe is somehow all or a pert of God.
Again, let us look at the description of God as he was revealed to Moses atop Mount Horeb ( Exodus 3:14 ).
I am taught as a Catholic that JAHVEH is an archaic Hebrew verb signifying absolute self-exiatent uncreated BEING in the present tense ( a.k.a. absolute eternal NOW )
This is the primary name of God. His "secondary" name is "GOODNESS" or "LOVE" on account of the fact that before anything else can be predicated of anything "BEING" must be predicated of it. But is because of the limitations of our human intellect that we think in terms of "primary" or "secondary" when considering the names of God.
The same can apply to our human consideration of the pronouns "I" and "HE" as in "I AM WHO AM" and "HE WHO IS" which indicate the absolute PERSONHOOD of God. God is not some amorphous impersonal "force" as New Agers claim.
The reason why it is "in God that everything lives, moves, and has its being" is because creatures are not what they have.
God, on the other hand, is what He has. God not only has being. He IS being. This is what we Catholics and many other non-Catholic Christians understand as the divine simplicity.
Creatures have being, but they are not being. Unlike God, they are not what they have. They have their being by participation in God's being. To say otherwise could lead to pantheism.
Because of the limitations of the human intellect, we are only capable of considering God's divine attributes "one at a time."
But God is not composed of parts. That God is not composed of parts is what is meant by the "divine simplicity."
DIVINE SIMPLICITY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity
________________________________
NATURE AND ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm
________________________________
It must be said that every being in any way existing is from God. For whatever is found in anything by participation, must be caused in it by that to which it belongs essentially, as iron becomes ignited by fire. Now it has been shown above (Question 3, Article 4) when treating of the divine simplicity that God is the essentially self-subsisting Being; and also it was shown (11, 3,4) that subsisting being must be one; as, if whiteness were self-subsisting, it would be one, since whiteness is multiplied by its recipients. Therefore all beings apart from God are not their own being, but are beings by participation. Therefore it must be that all things which are diversified by the diverse participation of being, so as to be more or less perfect, are caused by one First Being, Who possesses being most perfectly.
St. Thomas Aquinas
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1044.htm
I'll ponder that; thank you Susanna.
Anonymous 1:08 P.M.
You are very welcome.
I just wanted to point out one other thing that I overlooked before.
Re:If God is omnipresent as you say then he would be in all parts of his creation; yet your quote above suggests that all parts of his creation are in him.
I would simply like to show you that what I have said concerning God's omnipresence is grounded in Scripture.
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’Acts 17:26-28 (NIV)
Note that the Scriptures do not say the God is "in His creatures."
But rather that it is "in Him (God)" that creatures live and move and have their being.
Steven L. Anderson also believes that he has biblical support to hate homosexuals when the bible clearly says we are to love all sinners.
Re understandings of hell, we have been looking at it only from the human point of view. But what about God's? He won't want to spend eternity moving among people - the majority, according to scripture - who detest him. He wants to dwell with those who love him. Look at the imagery in Rev 21. Surely it is insufficient to say that is refers merely to a disempowering of the rest?
There is no Biblical or early tradition basis for purgatory as a place of temporary punishment distinct from hell in the sense of the unpleasant part of hades, as distinct from gehenna the lake of fire which may not even exist yet.
Glyn Willmoth
who is Stephan White? I have twice seen statements of mine quoted as being by him, and signed Glyn Wilmoth whose link connects to facebook list of Wilmoths none of which is Glyn.
Sadly, this blog hasn't changed much. Posting Anderson's virulent video without a caveat pretty much sums it up for me. BTW, Anderson claims to be PreWrath but he presents a different version from the norm. He has other "endearing" qualities - one of which was mentioned by someone else. Here's one refutation of his video, but there are others: http://dorightchristians.wordpress.com/category/steven-anderson/
Someone mentioned Margaret MacDonald. Note that her vision has the church suffering under Antichrist. In fact she and Irving were "mild historicists" and believed the world was already in the last half of the 70th week. But don't let facts or proper research get in the way of a good ad hominem attack on Darby. MacPherson claimed to have found new evidence that MacDonald was a pretribber via a personal note. In fact the "note" was nothing more than some jumbled words describing her original vision. He lied. In fact others (who aren't pretrib) have noted this propensity in MacPherson. Get a hold of Paul Wilkinson's For Zion's sake & David Larsen's The Company of hope. The irony is that so many on this blog consider themselves researchers.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html
http://www.apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html
The vision does not preach post trib. she speaks of those alive IN Christ being caught up in Him when He comes invisible to the physical eye and that those looking for a sign of the coming of Jesus Christ that is visible to natural sight are mistaken, then after this the antichrist persecutes those who have been found worthy to go through this.
McDonald goes on and on about some secret coming of Jesus, quotes the passage about two people of whom one is taken and one is kept, "now will the WICKED be revealed," is stated after that, so apparently there is some catching up before of some and others left to be persecuted, or it is a midtrib rapture. (not using the word rapture is irrelevant, what she describes is what the word refers to.)
however,
"Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church.
Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827, three years before MacDonald had her vision.
When one closely examines MacDonald's vision, it becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulational one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist. John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine, which teaches a two-staged event - first, Christ coming for His Church and second, seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, it is difficult to see any linkage."
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html
so we now are left with Darby taking a wrong idea of his own invention, and using an ambiguous vision to help him.
McDonald CANNOT have had this vision from God, because she denies that the sign of the coming of Jesus will be visible to normal sight.
"Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people."
So the sign of the coming is His arrival, but invisible to the normal eye.
Quatum mechaniques has discovered 4 foundational wave patterns that seem to appear from nowhere, along with what they call a Higgs Boson.This does agree with Holy Scripture as there are 4 foundations creation is built upon. They are seeking to quantify the Higgs Boson and are attempting to claim it ,too is a wave/particle.I say it is time, itself, and cannot be quanitified as it's sourse is in the Eternal. It is obvious to commonsens, all creation is built upon these sub atomic quantium patterns.As the sub atomic is everywhere in creation, so must it's Source be there to animate it.God is everywhere and Omnipresent.
The powers of the 1st day of creation, the Light and the Darkness correspond with morning and evening sacrifice taken away by antichrist when the abomination of desolation is set up in the Holy Place. The powers of Heaven will be shaken, and a 3rd of the stars of Heaven will fall.In the Garden of Eden this is symbolized by the Tree of Life. This is different from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, as concieving evil is impossble in the Tree of Life.Evil is defined as the misuse of power and can destroy life if used. The Christ demonstrated this when He cursed the tree which bore no fruit.It was not evil for the Christ to do this, and this power of the tree has a function, which can only be described in this manner. Evil is that force which seeking to do evil, only accomplishes the opposite. All things work for good(good and evil) for those who love God.The Christ has the Authority and Wisdom and Righteousness to employ this power in the Will of God. We do not, none of those created in the image and likeness of God can employ this. The Only Holy One calls our use of it sin.The Tree of the knowledge af Good and Evil was places there, in His Creation because it does have a function in His creation, which we are utterly forbidden to use. We do not set little children in the cockpits of jet airlines and hand them the controls and let them take off. It is impossible that they do not crash, even if they can take off, which would be rare indeed.The fall of God 's creation ensues.Humanity crashes and burns.Don't blame Adam and Eve, every one of us would have done the same thing.Actually, we became so bad, God flooded the whole world, except Noah.Noah send out a Raven and a Dove. Here the Light and the Darkness are symbolized. The Darkness works in the night, but the Light works in the day.The Darkness is a protection, the Light is as a secure place and time to build.The Christ affirms this as He says. No man can work in the night.The Darkness protects against the power of the dragon, the fallen one, whose full power and hour the Christ faced at His Crufixition.
These Holy Power appear in the time,as the Pillar of Fire and the Cloud/Ark in the Old Testament.In the times, the reappear in the Transfiguration on the Mount, sysmbolized and actually borne in the 2 prophets, Moses and Eliajah. St Peter affirms this as he wishes to build booths for all 3, which as a practicing Jew he had done every year of his life. The feast of Booths celebrates the Pillar and Cloud.
This Transfiguration transfers the Holy Powers to Christianity and they reappear as the Holy Fire and Apostolic Authority.As St John the Baptist is Eliajah, so is Enoch Moses.These are those who will not taste death, who were standing before the Christ and heard Him speak there, before He Ascended, who will not taste death until they see the coming return of the Christ.These are also the 2 prophets killed by antichrist, who ascend into Heaven.
This can only occur in a Holy Plac that is authenicly and presently Holy, not someplace what once was Holy.That which is perfect is come, Christianity and that which was in part is done way with. A Jewish temple cannot become Holy.
The Chapel of the Holy Seplcher is the Holy Place where the Holy Fire is recieved on Pascha. The antichrist will set up the abomination that makes desolate in the Holy Place, where it ought not to be. Rev13 vs 13, foriegn fire brought down from heaven in a fullness of the misuse of the power in the tree of knowledge of good and evil.The effect is to cut off all mankind from the Only Holy One, Our Father in Heaven. Those in the Body of Christ will not be cut off from the Christ, and He is not cut off from His Father or the Holy Spirit.Those that recieve the mark of the beast, and the numder of his name accept occult worship and tempt God. This is abomination of desolation.The warning to flee is given, but it is up to the individual, where he is, and his circumstance to determine if is required of him.I will not make this call for anyone, ask the Lord.
Bring the Oil of the love of God in your lamps, and trim them with trust in God, knowng all things work for Good including the abomination of desolation, for those who love God.We are required to endure to the end, and to sacrifice ourselves for the Christ sake. The gift of Eternal Life is yours if you accept it with a contrite and broken spirit, this God will not dispise. It is God's Good Pleasure to give this Gift to all who love Him.
The raising of the living into the air occurs in concert with the raising of the dead, this occurs only once on the Great day of Judgement, after death is defeated.We are all mortal, we all have sinned,and have to reap it;s wage, death. The exception is spiritual death, which is saved by the forgiveness of sin, with genuine repentance in the Holy Sacrament of Confession.
Dear Unknown
What do you mean by "4 foundational wave patterns that seem to appear from nowhere"; what are the 4 foundations upon which creation is built; and what do you mean by saying that the Higgs boson is time itself? None of these statements has any self-explanatory meaning nor is meaningful to trained physicists.
Physicist
neither does it make much sense to me as a Bible reader. your use of the term "the Christ" instead of Christ or Jesus Christ sounds New Agey.
I am not speaking to trained physicists. The foundation claim is their finding, not mine.I have no expertice in physic's.This is thier claim I heard in one of thier videos on the net. Their conclusions on the Higgs boson are indefinite, and they don't know what it is, it is different from the rest. This is my take one what I saw.
My expertice is bible interpetation. If you care to look, Google Michael Kinsey disques utube, google. I do have a precise definition of the abimination of desolation posted on all these site. No one will match this wisdom as the scripture said.You of course may try, but you will fail.My above post is all scripture, very difficult scripture.How do you explain, how men standing before the Christ will not taste death until they see the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. Are there 2,0?? year ols men still alive, or reincarnation, is the Christ lying or goofy? He said it to mean something. I just explained what He was refering to.
Dear Unknown
Then you have been taken in, regarding those physics claims, by nonsense.
Physicist
Media/Persia are Iran,Iraq,Afganistan,1/2 Syria, and the wars there are the fulfillment of the vision of the ram and the he-goat of the Hewbrew prophet Daniel. The archangels tells Daniel , this is the beginning of the end.War against Iran is included in this vision.Russia and China will not engage in total war over the attack by the West against Iran. The nuclear arsenial of the West is to dangerious to fight.Only 7 nations were not under Basel III control in 2001, Iran,, Iraq,Afganistan,Sudan,Cuba,N.Korea and Libya.4 down, 3 to go, before total world control under Western banking is enforced.Russia and China will join under this system, which will begin the exponential acceptance of the mark of the beast, after the Iran war is over. All will say peace and safety, when Iran is removed as a threat to Israel.This is the end of the beginning of the end.
The end begins with an X-class solar flare lasting 8 hours 1/3 of the earth burnt up, and also takes out all satellites ,which orbit the earth much faster than the earth orbits. This releases China and Russia from the threat posed by Western land based missles.Russia attacks South, China marches West.This is Armageddon, the end.
To 4:22
Like it or not, the Kabbalah is occultic and was clearly on the list of forbidden spiritual practices contained in Deuteronomy 18. Time and again, there was compromise between God's chosen people, the Jews, and outside occult forces. The Bible shorthands it as 'Mystery Babylon' which corrupted all nations, tribes, etc.
Constance
I agree, that the tree of life, Kabbla Jewish teaching is fully occult.I mention the tree of life in Eden, as it is mentioned in that scripture, and do not imput any belief in the Jewish practice of the same name.
I enjoy reading the posts on this site. The bible scholarship, with excellent reading comprehension and genuine Faith, do express a good will towards men.You are all pro-life, no doubt. Country Doe, Marshall in Command, 1st National Day of Rescue, Sunnyvale Calf, Oct. 29, 1988. Operation Rescue. My pro-life brethern, include the the truely self sacrificing Joan Andrews, are among those who I count as friends, who Indeed, have a kindred spirit.I always feel like Bilbo Baggins, addressing Thorin. I cannot match her.
Constance, news on the LCWR v The Vatican :
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/the-lcwr-vs.-the-vatican-setting-the-record-straight/
from OZ
There is only one way to heaven, and that is to accept Jesus Christ as savior. No jewish sacrifying of animals will save anyone! So called Christians who support those who are jews in flesh and who works to rebuild the temple and the sacrifices there, have thrown away what Jesus did, and will therefore be lost! There is only one true Israel today, the new testament clearly tells us,and that is God's spiritual jews,born again Christians "in Christ". If you do not accept Jesus as savior and believes that he is the ONLY way to God, both for those who are jews in the flesh as well as others, you are not saved. YES, Jesus REPLACED the sacrifices of animals with a perfect sacrifice ones and for all, the only sacrifice that saves for eternity, the Bibel clearly states. Based on this I clearly see that there are a couple of enemies of Christ here, trying to deceive people. Turn away from your wicked ways before you are lost forever. And I pray that God will stop your writings until you repent.
Pastor Steve Anerson is a KJV Onlyist. I've tried to listen to him on a few occasions but he's a little off to my liking.
I'm very disappointed to see a favorite author and researcher promoting an antisemite who uses the pulpit only to spew his own hate-filled opinion with no scripture reference. People are replacing the KJV only movement with true discernment. I still respect CC although here is a better option: https://youtu.be/0r8e98AbJhk
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