Thursday, December 03, 2015

Disturbing New Issues in the Wake of the San Bernadino Shootings

Disturbing Issues in the Wake of the San Bernadino Shootings

Names have been released of the dead shooters yesterday in the San Bernadino massacre of 14 and wouding of many more.  The names are that of an Illinois born Moslem named Syed Farook and his wife Tashfeen Malik.  They are undoubtedly Islamic names.  Syed was 28 and his wife was 27.  They had a 6 month old baby.  They were reportedly, per CNN accounts this morning, "religious."

It has not been characterized so far as "terrorism," but San Bernadino police, also per CNN reports, "have not ruled terrorism out."  Per an article by Michele Hickford Farook had recently taken a month long trip to Saudi Arabia and came back with Tashfeen as his wife.

They left their baby with grandparents, Farook went to his employer's Christmas party and then appeared to be enraged at a co-worker.  He and Tashfeen returned and the rest is very tragic history.

Now, I'm not an Islamic basher, per se.  We have many Moslems in the Detroit metropolitan area and so far the relations between Jews, Christians, and Moslems has been mostly peaceful.  While there have been arguments over Christian presence at Moslem street festivals, there is also peaceful business interaction and even social friendships.  From SE Michigan's large Arabic community, there are large groups of both Christians and Moslems.  The Chaldean community is primarily Catholic, but I've met Chaldean Baptists.  Probably the most agitated of Arabic communities in the Detroit area to my observation are the Palestinians.  I do recall seeing reports of post-911 celebrations in the Dearborn area.  As I recall the celebrants were Palestinian.

Now, the interesting part from my observation -- not of the shooters -- but of the planned "dialogue and reconciliation".  A pleasant appearing fellow appeared on CNN's morning programming within the past half hour of my writing.  He said that he represented the Ahmahdiyya Mosque and they were holding a large prayer service at their San Bernadino mosque this evening (Thursday, December 3, 2015).  He urged everybody to come and pray with them.  I somewhat blinked as I thought I heard him say it was a movement founded by "the Messiah."

I've heard of Sunni Moslems and Shia Moslems.  This was the first I had heard of the Ahmadiyya movement of Moslems.  I decided to do a little research and found much of concern that like other phases of the New Age Movement (a Movement dedicated to eliminating Jews, Christians, and Moslems) was acting in a way that could subtly channel folk into the bottom line of the New Age Movement -- acceptance of  a new "Messiah" who was neither Jesus nor Jewish.

What was the Ahmadiyya Movement about?  The following significant and disturbing material is found in the Wikipedia article on the subject and I quote it here:


Ahmadiyya . . . officially, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community[2] or the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at; . . .  is an Islamic religious movement founded in British India near the end of the 19th century.[3][4] It originated with the life and teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908), who claimed to have fulfilled the prophecies of the world's reformer during the end times, who was to herald the eschaton as predicted in the traditions of variousworld religions and bring about, by peaceful means, the final triumph of Islam as per Islamic prophecy. He claimed that he was the Mujaddid (divine reformer) of the 14th Islamic century, the promised Messiah and Mahdi awaited by Muslims.[5][6][7][8] The adherents of the Ahmadiyya movement are referred to as Ahmadi Muslims or simply Ahmadis.
Ahmadi thought emphasizes the belief that Islam is the final dispensation for humanity as revealed to Muhammad and the necessity of restoring to it its true essence and pristine form, which had been lost through the centuries.[9] Ahmadiyya adherents believe that Ahmad appeared in the likeness of Jesus, to end religious wars, condemn bloodshed and reinstitute morality, justice, and peace. They believe that upon divine guidance he divested Islam of fanatical and innovative beliefs and practices by championing what is, in their view, Islam’s true and essential teachings as practised by Muhammad and the early Islamic community.[10] Thus, Ahmadis view themselves as leading the revival and peaceful propagation of Islam.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded the movement on 23 March 1889 and termed it the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jama'at, sometimes translated as Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. Since his death, the community has been led by a number of Caliphs and has expanded to over 200 countries and territories of the world. The Ahmadis were among the earliest Muslim communities to arrive inBritain and other Western countries.[9] Currently, the community is led by its Caliph, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, and is officially estimated to number between 10 and 20 million worldwide.[11][12][13] 

So, the Ahmadiyya Movement stands for a "Messiah," clearly neither Jesus nor Jewish.  It is very interesting to me that it was founded in India at just about the same time that the Theosophists were promulgating very, very similar philosophies and preparing the world to receive a new messiah, although the Theosophical Society originally passed itself off as merely studying comparative religion.

My impressions?  That the California killings could well have been part of a Isis or radicalized equivalent "sleeper cell" and that the New Age slogan of "crisis = opportunity" is also at work.  I'm still researching this, but as Californians were urged to flock to the Mosque for the communal prayer service I suspect it is another diabolical move towards their long awaited "New World Religion" where all say "blessed be thy God" rather than "blessed be My God."

My research in this area will continue and your comments are invited.

Stay tuned!

Constance


495 comments:

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Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

anon 11:54,

why don't you leave Susanna alone? she believes in Christ but figures to obey Him
she must be part of the RCC which can go through time of having bad popes and corruption in clergy, but has a spiritual reality to it that is distinct from all
that.

Even if your worst case scenario about her is true and she isn't just trying to believe her official hero the pope isn't what he increasingly appears to be, you
can't tell that from what she has posted.

In the west we wouldn't have the Bible if the RCC hadn't preserved the documents.
the Calvinist brand of protestant made an overture to an ORthodox PAtriarch but he
rejected specific errors, and that was the end of contact with the east outside of
such eastern fathers' writings as the western church had preserved. Thanks to shared
dislike of images, Calvinists were fighting on the side of the Ottoman turks when
the latter were defeated at Lepanto near Vienna. Lutherans had less extreme errors.
I don't think any contact was attempted however.

Anonymous said...

Constance

1:49 AM

SDA is AS corrupt and in a full falling away as all the rest. At least some of them admit it openly. I have not been to a service but watched on you tube so I am no expert but they often look very post modern. From RC catechism 841 to what you mention there about SDA...what denomination is not involved somehow with the great apostasy and the building of the universal church? Name one who still thinks he bread is more important that the brotherhood? I have failed to find one.

Anonymous said...

Didn't Ellen White says her church was already infiltrated when she was alive??? I don't know, I never read her stuff, not interested enough. I have not read the Book of Mormon either (but I did see their movie ans visited the NY place he was from). I do have a copy of the RCC catechisms and I ordered cannon law, I wonder how it compares to shariah law or Agenda 21 even. Catechism 460 Jesus came so He might make men Gods. Uh, not so much I think.

Anonymous said...

"Lutherans had less extreme errors."

Luther got tired of the Jews who say they are Jews and are not Jews and wrote a book complaining about it. Jesus is tired of deception too. We all are, but mostly I am tired of relying on my own understanding, being rebellious only to then be USED to further deception. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It has become an hourly thing sometimes.... Uh Sorry Lord I believed that propaganda... They are really masters of deception. What a waste of human effort. A total and complete waste of time because in the end Luci is toast anyway.

Anonymous said...

11:54 AM

some people don't have ears that hear

Marko said...

Constance,

My apologies... sometimes my anticommunism gives me tunnel vision.

No, you shouldn't have ignored the MDMA promo just because it was on Al-Jazeera.

But, for propaganda outlets like AJ and RT, one must always be cognizant that they only allow things on their network that serves a purpose. And the main goals and purposes of both AJ and RT are not in the best interests of America.

Speaking more generally... On any media outlet, whether our own mass media, or whomever, disinformation can be disseminated and believed a whole lot easier if that disinformation is almost all (95-99%) true. Information that is obviously false might serve as propaganda, but it is of little value in deception strategies.

Anonymous said...

Christine,

Thank you Christine!!!

Despite our denominational differences, our bishops - Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic - are in the Apostolic succession.

That is why I ignore people like Anonymous 11:54 A.M. I don't have to trash his beliefs in order to validate my own.

Maybe if Anonymous 11:54 A.M. spent as much time "truly knowing the Lord Jesus as his own Savior as he does making Christianity repulsive and incredible to people by bearing false witness against his neighbor and playing the role of "accuser of the brethren," then he could more credibly lecture us all about "truly knowing the Lord Jesus as our Savior."

********************

You are absolutely correct about the Battle of Lepanto on October 7, 1571. It was the rag tag, outnumbered and outclassed Catholic fleet put together by Don Juan of Austria at the request of pope Pius V that fought ALONE against the Ottoman Turks led by Soleiman the Magnificent.

To this day, the victory of the Holy League has been seen - at least by Catholics - as miraculous.


Lepanto, 1571: The Battle that Saved Europe
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7391
____________________________________________________________________

BATTLE OF LEPANTO

....The Battle of Lepanto took place on 7 October 1571 when a fleet of the Holy League, a coalition of European Catholic maritime states arranged by Pope Pius V, decisively defeated the fleet of the Ottoman Empire on the northern edge of the Gulf of Corinth, off western Greece. The Ottoman forces sailing westwards from their naval station in Lepanto (Turkish: İnebahtı; Greek: Ναύπακτος or Έπαχτος Naupaktos or Épahtos) met the Holy League forces, which came from Messina, Sicily, where they had previously gathered.

The victory of the Holy League prevented the Ottoman Empire from expanding further along the European side of the Mediterranean. Lepanto was the last major naval battle in the Mediterranean fought entirely between galleys and has been assigned great symbolic and historical importance by several historians.....
read more....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto
__________________________________________________________________

So while people like Anonymous 11::54 A.M. are shooting their ignorant mouths off about the Pope and his "Catholic cult", they might want to consider that if it weren't for Pope Pius V and his Holy League coalition they might be living under sharia law!!!

Susanna said...

Christine,

I meant to sign the above post addressed to you. Sorry. And again.....thank you.

Susanna

Anonymous said...

Protestants proved loyal under Catholic command when the Ottomans invaded eastern Europe in the late 1520s. They simply wanted freedom to worship Christ in their own way.

Marko said...

Great post, Susanna, and yes, thanks to Christine for bringing up the topic.

Something I've read about lately that has given me much more respect for Catholics in history, is the story of the Vendee. I'll let Susanna post more about that little episode in history, for I'm sure she has some excellent sources. Ann Barnhardt has a 4-part video on it, and while she can be grating at times, the story doesn't suffer any from her telling of it.

It's obvious whose side the Evil One is on in that story, and it's not the Catholics'.

Marko said...

BTW, the "banner picture" on my Facebook page is a painting by Steuben of the "Battle of Tours" in France in 732. I'd love to see something like that as a backdrop on the latest edition of Fox News, or CNN! (Not holding my breath on that one, however...)

Many were the invasions of the Islamic hordes, and it was the Catholic Church that helped keep the flame of Christian civilization alive by valiantly fighting against them.

It's important not to lose site of the big picture, eh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

Susanna said...

Anonymous 4:26 P.M.

It wasn't until 1540 that the Reformation had begun separating the Christian nations of the north from Rome. Protestants did not fight under Catholic command against the Turks at Lepanto. For the most part their sympathies were with the Turks with whom they sought doctrinal rapprochement.

The Battle of Lepanto was the war of wars for the spread of Christianity in Western civilization. The Turks of the Ottoman Empire had overtaken all of Eastern Christendom in the Byzantine Empire and only remaining was Western Europe and now have their sites on Western Europe and the expansion of Christendom in the Americas.

Under the orders of Pope St Pius V, the Holy League was formed ( Spain, The Republic of Venice, Papal States, Republic of Genoa, Duchy of Savoy, and the Knights of Malta ) under the leadership of Don Juan of Austria. This battle was fought in the Bay of Lepanto off the coast of Western Greece. The Turks were headed straight to Western Europe primarily Spain, Rome, and Vatican City the eternal city and capitol of all Christendom. The Catholic Church had other battles going on as well, The Protestant Reformation and the spreading of Christendom and the creation of the Spanish Missions in the New World Americas. Pope Pius V continued the warnings to the reformers but they withdrew any support for the Church in the battle that with a defeat would wipe away Christianity throughout the entire world, not only to Catholics but any Protestants communities. The Moslems would have overtaken all of Europe and the elimination of the spread of Christendom in the New World Americas! Therefore, I would not be writing this blog and you would not be reading it.
......
http://jn1838.blogspot.com/2010/02/battle-of-lepanto-battle-that-saved.html
__________________________________________________________________


PROTESTANTISM AND ISLAM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam
_____________________________________________________________________

Susanna said...

Marko,


Vendée French call for revolution massacre to be termed 'genocide'

It was one of the most infamous episodes of the bloody French Revolution.

According to the historian Alain Gérard, of the Vendéean Centre for Historical Research, "In other parts of France the revolutionaries killed the nobles or the rich bourgeoisie. But in Vendée they killed the people.

"It was the Revolution turning against the very people from whom it claimed legitimacy. It proved the faithlessness of the Revolution to its own principles. That's why it was wiped out of the historical memory," he said.

While today nobody denies that massacres took place, some historians argue they cannot be called "genocide" as there were excesses on both sides in what was a civil war, and they do not fit the UN criteria of killings based on ethnic or religious identity.(?????????) "The Vendéeans were no more blameless than were the republicans. The use of the word genocide is wholly inaccurate and inappropriate," said Timothy Tackett of the University of California.

For Mr Gérard, the massacres were clearly "a deliberate policy on the part of the authorities".

For Mr de Villiers, an aristocrat whose family seat is in the Vendée, genocide does indeed apply as his forebears were killed for religious reasons: they had rebelled to protect their priests, who refused to swear an oath to the new constitution.

"It's the rare case of a people rising up for religious reasons. They did not rebel because they were hungry, but because their priests were being killed," he said.

"It is my burden – and my great honour – to defend the Vendée to the end of my days. The Vendée is not just a province of France, it is a province of the spirit. If today we enjoy the freedom to worship the way we choose, it is largely down to the sacrifice of those who died here."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3964724/Vende-French-call-for-revolution-massacre-to-be-termed-genocide.html
____________________________________________________________

Immediately following the opening chapter of the French Revolution, the "de-Christianization of France" began - first with the atheistic Cult of Reason of the Hebertists and then with Robespierre's Cult of the Supreme Being, which was the cult that prevailed during the Terror.

THE DECHRISTIANIZATION OF FRANCE DURING THE FRENCH REVOLUTION

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution
__________________________________________________________________________

CULT OF REASON

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason
__________________________________________________________________________

CULT OF THE SUPREME BEING

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_the_Supreme_Being
_____________________________________________________________________________

cont....

Susanna said...

cont..

Vendée Catholics during the French Revolution

James Bogle

.......Myths surround the story of the French Revolution. Truth has been obscured by the conventional wisdom of fashionable Marxism. The uprising in the Vendée in defence of the Catholic faith is dismissed as a "counter-revolutionary" plot hatched by the nobility and the clergy afraid of losing their power and status.

The simple truth is that the Vendean rising was begun by neither cleric nor noble. It was begun by the peasants. In the Vendée, the priests were poor and devoted and the nobility, scarcely richer than the clergy, were equally attached to the people who therefore had no desire to reform the manners of the one nor to curtail the privileges of the other.

The Vendean rising occurred when France's revolutionary government began to restrict Catholic worship. On 24 August 1790 the decisive blow came with the unfortunate King Louis XVI forced to give royal assent to the civil constitution of the clergy, by which the Church of France was turned from being Catholic into a mere national establishment, defying the authority of the Pope. The spark of insurrection was instantly lit, although more than two years passed before it burst into flames.

The regime also brought in what are now familiar revolutionary policies: a stream of arbitrary laws on nationalisation, wage and price-fixing, arbitrary powers to municipal councils, taxes, levies and ultimately requisition and expropriation. The Catholic clergy remained as a force to challenge these injustices. The regime therefore enforced their replacement by schismatic clergy who had taken the civil oath.

All this was massively rejected by the Vendée and elsewhere. Churches served by the "intruder-priests" - curés truttons as they were called - were deserted. The people went to hear Mass in the woods with their old pastors who had refused the oath and gone into hiding to avoid arrest. The government attempted to force the people to hear the Mass of the "truttons", but the people refused. BarilIon, a labourer in Lower Poitou, armed only with a fork, resisted the gendarmes of the new National Guard. "Yield," cried the officer. "First yield me my God," was the reply. He was duly bayoneted 22 times by the gendarmes.

The first insurrection arose in Brittany in February 1791 and then spread to the Vendée. It was greeted with brutal savagery. On August 10th the Tuileries Palace was stormed and the King taken prisoner. On August 16th a law was passed ordering the general deportation of Catholic priests who had not sworn the oath. At Bressuire 7,000 peasants rebelled. They were defeated and the prisoners massacred in cold blood.

In September 1792 the Republic was proclaimed and on 21 January 1793, the King and Queen were guillotined. The news was greeted with profound shock. The Republic thought it had silenced the peasants, but in fact they were preparing for all-out-war. Early in March 1793 the whole West rose, the peasants leading.
.........

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1996/jul1996p12_799.html

Anonymous said...

True Susanna, protestants were not involved at Lepanto - because no protestant nations had a Mediterranean coastline. But it is a fact that they fought loyally under Catholic command on land against the Ottoman advance in the late 1520s; check it out. And Catholic Francois I of France allied with the Ottomans against Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, whose keenness for war did no favors to either Catholic nor protestant.

Anonymous said...

Just a bit later than the 1520s, actually. In April 1531 Catholic powers asked for protestant help against the Ottomans. Luther and the protestant princes agreed, at the Peace of Nuremberg (July 23, 1532), pledging mutual religious tolerance until a General Church Council should be convened. An army of German Catholics and protestants, together with Spanish and Italian Catholics, convened at Vienna and its numbers deterred Suleiman who turned back to Istanbul.

Susanna said...

Anonymous 5:56 P.M.

I have checked it out and according to Ottoman historian Norman Itzkowitz,

the Ottomans saw their support of the Protestants against the Hapsburgs as a major component of their strategy in Europe........

.....During Ottoman rule in Hungary, Catholics left in large numbers while at the number of Protestants grew dramatically. Ian Almond attributes this to the systematic preference for Protestants over Catholics in virtually all matters and states that “the Ottomans helped the Protestants so much that some historians interpret the Turkish victory of the Battle of Mohacs as a phase of the Reformation. Philip Melanchthon was apparently so excited about the events there that he wanted to visit Hungary......
read more....

http://reimaginingcordoba.com/2013/07/03/martin-luther-on-the-turks-and-islam/
_________________________________________________________________________

However it began, the Peace of Nuremburg was more a protracted cease fire than it was an instance of Catholics actually receiving help from Protestants ( apart from their "Pater Nosters" ) against the Ottoman Empire. Catholics asking Protestants for help against the Ottoman Empire. The cease fire merely granted German Protestants freedom of religion until further notice.

The Peace of Nuremberg had included an item obliging the signatories to assist the Emperor in the defence of Europe against the Turks. Swiftly came a request, in August 1532, to Luther from Duke Joachim of Brandenburg, who was to lead a contingent of the Saxon army against the Turks. He wanted prayers for his undertaking and spiritual advice. In the old days he would have had a blessing from the local bishop and an Indulgence. In his response, serious and detailed, almost paternal, if not quite episcopal or pontifical, Luther said he wished to move out to war spiritually with our earnest prayers, to join with the dear Emperor Charles and his soldiers’ — he still thought Charles V ill-advised rather than perverse. He spoke of the dangers of useless self-congratulation: they were not to place reliance in the Turks being altogether wrong and God’s enemy while we are innocent and righteous. . . rather fight in the fear of God and in reliance on his grace alone. . . I pray that in such a war our people by no means seek honour, glory, land, booty, etc., but only the glory of God and. . . defence of poor Christians and subjects . . . May Your Sovereign Grace now go forth in God’s name, . . . Our Pater Noster shall follow you.

In the summer of 1532, the Emperor left Germany and was not forcefully present again for nearly a decade. He could not move far between November and March each year on account of weather and transport difficulties; and his pressing concerns were in areas widely separated geographically; the Turks in eastern Europe, his Spanish territories in Italy, the attempt to insist with the Pope on the calling of a Council, Spain itself, a new war with France (in conspiracy with the German Protestants), a revolt in the Netherlands, and the Turks again, in Northern Africa. In the Emperor’s long absence the Church reforms in Germany spread more widely and pushed their roots more deeply down. They went hand in hand with reforms in Switzerland and Scandinavia and to a lesser extent in some parts of France, and in England. Luther was free again to follow all the normal demands on his time, university lectures (Galatians, Psalms, Genesis) sermons in the town, Bible translation and activities in the whole field of strengthening the new or reformed Church institutions.


http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=801&C=1070
_____________________________________________________________________________

Re: An army of German Catholics and protestants, together with Spanish and Italian Catholics, convened at Vienna and its numbers deterred Suleiman who turned back to Istanbul.

The Siege of Vienna was in 1529 and is not to be confused with Battle if Vienna in 1681.

Susanna said...

Anonymous 5:56 P,M,

You might want to cite your sources, because I cannot find any indication that Catholics and Protestants fought shoulder to shoulder during the Siege of Vienna in 1529.

In the early 1500s CE the Ottoman Empire included predominantly Muslim Egypt, Palestine, Syria, and Mesopotamia as well as predominantly Christian southeastern Europe, lands that now belong to Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Hungary. On their eastern frontiers, the Sunni Ottoman rulers faced off against the Shi’i shahs of Safavid Persia, and on their western frontiers against the Catholic Habsburg rulers of Austria and the Holy Roman Empire.

Ottoman expansion into southeastern Europe reached its maximum extent just as the wars of religion were breaking out in western Europe. The struggle between the Habsburgs and the Ottomans took place deep within Christian Europe. It was and is sometimes portrayed as a contest between East and West, between Christendom and Islam, but at a time when Christendom was about to go to war with itself, when Persian shahs were sending emissaries to European kings and Ottoman sultans were sending support to Dutch Protestants, the real identity of the combatants was never so simple.

In 1529, the Ottoman Suleiman the Magnificent (1520-1566 CE) laid siege to Vienna, the eastern stronghold of the Habsburg Empire. This Ottoman illustration depicts the beginning of the siege, when massed Ottoman cannon bombarded the walls of Vienna without success. Suleiman and his richly dressed war council discuss the situation in a tent outside their fortified camp. The defenders, in fine black armor, under the black and gold standards of the Habsburgs, are apparently unaffected. The combatants are portrayed in flattering detail, accurate to the time, without any metaphorical allusions to past conflicts, and without any suggestion of brutality. Only the heavy castle-like fortifications are unrealistic versions of earthworks that defended the city.....


http://teachmiddleeast.lib.uchicago.edu/historical-perspectives/middle-east-seen-through-foreign-eyes/antiquity-modern/image-resource-bank/image-04.html

Susanna said...


Anonymous 5:56

Protestants were not involved in Lepanto because they favored a Turkish victory. Check it out......and cite your sources.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but the history lessons don't help while we are in such a late hour of almost completely formed global politics and global religion. Just be looking at how people all over the map are lining up in the for or in the against. So what if what goes around comes around? Because it is all come back much much bigger. We are so there right now with everything so corrupted none of this matters at this point. The wheels are coming off of what was left of a turn around. That is now for the history books, too.
Don't get ready...be ready.......for 2016.

Constance Cumbey said...

To Rich of Medford re 9:56 re 8:09

Thank you for calling the Cristine Gallach bio to my attention. I see with astonishment that her job now is a very highly placed one in the United Nations. Please give me a call when you can to discuss those possible ramifications.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

What SDA Ellen G. White and the Ahmadiyyah cult obviously have in common is a doctrine of CONTINUING REVELATION. I did an outline on this as a probable basis for the acceptance of a New Age "Christ" years ago. I'm going to imminently repost it here as I now think it increasingly relevant.

Constance

Susanna said...

Anonymous 8:14P.M.


RE:Sorry, but the history lessons don't help while we are in such a late hour of almost completely formed global politics and global religion.

Really??? The way I learned it, "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - George Santayana

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turco-Calvinism

accommodation to protestants by Islam and military cooperations, but

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_War_Against_the_Turk

Marko said...

Anon. 8:14....

You use phrases like "everything so corrupted none of this matters" and "the wheels are coming off". These pronouncements have a ring of inevitability and hopelessness to them. Indeed, much of what I read on prophecy boards, anti-NWO forums, etc, etc, is a kind of hopeless reservation to what is "inevitable".

A thorough understanding of history (which I don't have, but I'm trying to remedy that) will show you that (1) the period of turmoil that most of us sense is at the door is NOT unique to our time, except perhaps that it might be that final period of time that is so bad that Christ said it will be worse than any time ever experienced by Mankind, and (2) ever and always in the face of pure evil, NOTHING is inevitable, and God uses times of darkness to display bright, shining lights of goodness that bring glory to Himself and His kingdom, and (3) it is often one small deed that to our minds seems a futile effort, but that when we perform that deed for His glory, it can be magnified a hundred-fold and send ripples through the darkness, taking down enemy strongholds that to our limited human perspective seemed unshakeable.

History shows that there is never a time of complete hopelessness, so we draw strength from the stories of history, which are really "His Story" - the story of God overcoming evil at every turn, or turning what was meant for bad into good.

So I would disagree with you and say that yes, history lessons DO help us now, giving us a "great cloud of witnesses" to encourage us to "... also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:1,2)

The whole of the preceding chapter of Hebrews was a history lesson given for encouragement!

"And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets — who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two,a they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated — of whom the world was not worthy — wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth." (Hebrews 11:32-38)

If they can do it, so can we, by God's grace. We can be inspired by the stories of history to live well, to fight well, to love well, to judge well, and to die well.

Susanna said...

Constance and Marko,

On a hunch, I went in search of a connection between the Traditionalist School and the Italian Communist Antonio Gramsci.

Here is what I found.

IDENTITARIANISM
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Identitarianism
_________________________________________________________


IDENTITARIAN MOVEMENT

The movement also appeared in Germany converging with preexisting circles centering on the magazine Blaue Narzisse. Drawing upon thinkers of the New Right and the Conservative Revolutionary movement such as Oswald Spengler, Carl Schmitt or the contemporary Russian Aleksandr Dugin, it played a role for the rise of the PEGIDA marches in 2014/15.

As their symbol the Identitarian movement uses a yellow Lambda sign......


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identitarian_movement
___________________________________________________________________________

EUROPEAN NEW RIGHT
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/The_European_New_Right

__________________________________________________________________________

NOUVELLE DROITE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle_Droite
___________________________________________________________________

Since the terrorist attack in Paris Marine LePen, daughter of Jean Marie Le Pen, s gaining in popularity.

Occupy le mosque: France’s new radical nativism
November 5, 2012

http://theconversation.com/occupy-le-mosque-frances-new-radical-nativism-10368
___________________________________________________________________

Far right holds secret congress in Hungary

By Nick Thorpe BBC News, Budapest

7 October 2014

From the section Europe

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29503378
______________________________________________________________

Susanna said...

Marko and Constance,

Europe’s Neoreaction Is Scarier than You Think

By Dalibor Rohac

This article appeared on the The Umlaut on August 6, 2014.

The European neoreaction goes under different names, including ‘European New Right’,‘identitarianism’, ‘archeofuturism’ or ’Eurasianism’. Labels aside, here are the movement’s key ideas, which make it a close relative of the American Internet neoreaction:
•‘ethnopluralism’ and anti-immigration rhetoric,
•rejection of liberalism, both in its classical and modern form, and a distrust of democracy,
•rejection of egalitarianism,
•veneration of Vladimir Putin’s leadership,
•‘Eurasianism’ (i.e. building closer ties with Russia) as a substitute for fostering trans-Atlantic political ties,
•a distrust of capitalism, especially of the international variety, which is seen as corroding the tradition and sense of community,

European neoreactionaries may lack the interest in techno-futurism displayed by their American counterparts. They also emphasize Russia’s role in the world more—although, interestingly, Moldbug has a poem about Slobodan Milošević, who is typically depicted as a martyr by the Kremlin. What is more, the Europeans come with a fair amount of esoteric baggage, such as ‘traditionalism’—the idea, expounded by the French intellectual René Guénon, that the great world religions share a common root.

And what role is played in all this by Hungary? Well, it was in Hungary that “a principled, conservative and radically patriotic Christian party” has recently become the second most important political group in the country. So it is only fitting that Budapest will be the venue of this year’s ‘Identitarian Congress’ (h/t)...
read more.....

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/europes-neoreaction-scarier-you-think

Anonymous said...

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Should have already learned it is what I say.
God is allowing all of it. All of this is in very forward motion.


So, we shall see soon enough if it is indeed way too late.



Anonymous said...

Marko,
There is no hopelessness in what I am referring to.
The Lord is at hand.
The hopelessness is for the world at the end of it's age. It is perishing.
Go and shine because there is still a harvest--a real one that God has prepared. All the hope there is....is in Christ.

Anonymous said...

In fact, instead of history lessons there should be prayer sessions..........lots and lots of them.
Why isn't the weight of all these things, that the whole world is groaning louder and louder underneath, making people stop and see what time it is?
Because they are looking at this world and history and trends, etc., etc., looking back, looking sideways, looking forward too........everything but looking up.
Look up!!!!!
The Lord is at hand.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Not so fast with the pretrib or whatever assumptions. YES WE NEED PRAYER SESSIONS, and history should be studied prayerfully, everything should be done prayerfully.

But Jesus said you will hear of wars and rumors of wars and all kinds of disasters but that these are the beginning of sorrows and the end is not yet. Predict the Second Coming is around the corner, and it doesn't happen this can undermine faith and cause potential converts to lose interest.

Anonymous said...

Not a pretrib assumption.
And we shall see if I am assuming anything, won't we?
Perhaps you are doing the assuming (?), but that is not my concern. I am simply saying the hour is very very late. Prophecy is fulfilling, falling into place many pieces at a time lately because it is the end of the age.
Look up (or not, if you so choose, Christine).

Glad Rich of Medford is noting the links I posted.
Much is in the works and right on time.

Anonymous said...

"Predict the Second Coming is around the corner, and it doesn't happen this can undermine faith and cause potential converts to lose interest."

And I am talking about the end of the age, which does of course, lead up to the second coming but many things are going to happen before the Lord comes. Many things and they are highly developed and so close now for action. I'm asking: Who is ready out there?
Watch and pray and test the spirits to see if they are of God. Real believers (and those about to be) are the ones who won't be losing interest.

By the way, every time you study history or whatever or whatever you do, do you pray about it first? Because that is what you just said everyone should do.
Do you pray every time you are about to post, for instance?

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
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Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

@ 12:04 AM - If you did more praying instead of your bad attempts at mind reading, you would be a lot better poster.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
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Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
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Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

"A vibrant rural economy is viewed as an impediment to the centralization of political power. Every passing day a higher percentage of the world’s population is being concentrated into urban centers, called “MEGA-REGIONS” by global planners. The goal is to create a tightly regulated “sustainable” and highly interconnected world by the year 2050."

http://oldmanoftheski.com/2013/03/14/mega-regions-and-america-2050/

to this sort of thing I answer, "yes were are "interconnected" and "interdependent" now AND IT NEEDS TO STOP, ROLLBACK ALL THIS INTERDEPENDENCY, ONE ELEMENT GOES DOWN IT TAKES THE REST WITH IT, economic crashes have typically been on both sides of the Atlantic at once more or less, this is NOT RIGHT. "

http://politicallyunclassifiable.blogspot.com/2015/11/wolves-and-unhealthy-interdependency-of.html

Anonymous said...

Christine,

Anon 11:09 PM - I'm more in line with your assessment of this late hour.

Christine, re "empire will arise that conquers (not seduces but violently conquers) the whole world, and out of that will arise the antichrist."

I interpretation Daniel's prophecy very differently than you. Peace will be the means that brings forth destruction. This suggests people will be seduced into acceptance. Jesus also said that toward the end it would be as in the days of Noah. One characteristic that defines those days is the earth was filled with violence. I think that condition currently exists.

New American Standard Bible
"And through his shrewdness He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence; And he will magnify himself in his heart, And he will destroy many while they are at ease. He will even oppose the Prince of princes, But he will be broken without human agency.

King James Bible
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Time and events will tell.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
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Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
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Anonymous said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrm8usaH0sM

The brooms are the MK Ultra victims in my mind. Nero's sorcerer, Magus looks like he took over and made the whole operation a black magic theater operation. The Vatican is built over Nero's old place. Nero slept with his mother, (how Isis-Horrace of him), married and murdered his sister and kicked his pregnant wife to death. I understand that Francis holds the office Holy Roman Emperor same as Nero did, nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLCuL-K39eQ

Disney was a Mason and his junk is used for mind control programming. Seems to me they know what Luther confirmed the souls are sleeping until Jesus returns by that video above. Try telling a "protestant" that today they think you are nuts. Every denomination is Babylonian now. I realized yesterday that the emergent churches do the line up and sun/moon Eucharist dipping thing. Deception.. much of which really isn't working that well for now as I see it. They have to keep coming up with new lies. What did Bacon says? OH what a tangled web they weave when first they practice to deceive. What an utter waste of time.

Anonymous said...

http://babylonmysteryreligion.com/Christianity-and-SS.gif

For the continuation of the chart you can list B'nai Brith (Jewish Babylonians)
Muslims Brotherhood (Muslims Babylonians) and Free-Mansons (Protestant (and Catholic now) Babylonians, separated strictly by race black and white) from there you can see these groups operating in unions, clubs, groups and other societies. Especially the media and politics. I always keep and eye out for the MK ultra people, they are NOT as undetectable as you think and they still follow the planned life pattern of Binocci. I have a prayer notebook and add the names and pray for them ALL. May God bless them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1qnZwgQCB0

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

anon 9:38

that video is shot through with so many historical errors I couldn't debunk it in space that wouldn't be excessive. So one thing only.

There was no Roman Catholicism anywhere outside of the Roman Patriarchate, which was Italy and Europe, until after AD 1054 when you find incursions into ORthodox places. The Roman section of the Church had no authority, and no representation, and nothing to gain in Arabia. The Christians there were Coptic (monophysite) Nestorian, and likely some regular Orthodox. Tertullian in North Africa and Augustine from North Africa played a big role in the development of Latin Christianity, but not relevant much to the usual complaints, and Lutheranism in some ways and Calvinism in others are Augustine on steroids.

Arabia would have been under the Jerusalem Patriarchate. All the Patriarchates were brothers so to speak. (and all tracked directly or indirectly to Peter.)

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

"The Vatican is built over Nero's old place. " no it was built over the circus Nero built, not his palace. this was where St. Peter was martyred.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

anon 9:59

who is Binocci?

Susanna said...

Anonymous 9:38 A.M.

Re: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_qYcJ-GSZc

Susanna and Constance,
BRAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA!



Really.....sometimes, you've just gotta laugh!!!!

Anonymous said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruz

Just so we are all clear on who the next prez will be.

The word "Cruz", as well as "Vera Cruz" ("True Cross") and "Santa Cruz" ("Holy Cross") are used as surnames and topological names. Its origin as a surname particularly flourished after the Alhambra Decree of 1492 and the increasing activities of the Spanish Inquisition, when New Christian families with Crypto-Jewish, Moorish, and/or mixed religious heritage converted to the state-enforced religion of Catholicism and subsequently fashioned and adopted surnames with unambiguous religious affiliation.

I am pretty sure he is not legally eligible and his daddy was a red and his wife is goldman sachs.

oldmanoftheski said...

Islamic Timelines?

http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/12/islamic-timelines-fueling-jihad/

Anonymous said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1qnZwgQCB0

who is Binocci?

Anonymous said...

10:21 yes at you deceivers, but then I stop because I realize you believe your own lies, I guess that's how you are able to tell them with such conviction

Susanna said...

Christine,

Re: anon 9:59


who is Binocci?



LOL His real name is "Binoccio" and he is Pinoccio's brother. Both were liars.

Seriously, I am assuming that the person being referred to is Santos Bonacci.

This "guru" ( a.k.a. noted "astrotheologist who has given noted talks on Youtube like "Your Soul is Owned by the Vatican" ) lives in Australia and teaches that "syncretism is the true theology."

ABOUT SANTOS
http://universaltruthschool.com/about-santos/

http://universaltruthschool.com/
__________________________________________________________

Anonymous said...

"if people don't want to be interpreted in ways they are not, then they should choose their words more carefully"

That coming from you lol!
It appears that nobody creates more confusion by what they post than you do. It is you who is into word games---the set up for your frequent quarrels, so it is you who would be the one to stand to the last breath to even argue with wallpaper.

Perhaps it is because you might be about what the verse 2 Timothy 2:23 describes?
You can determine that for yourself.
Really, you should pray...and with a right heart before you post.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
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Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Says you @ 11:50 AM.
No one sets bait for you. You believe yourself a victim, but it's just your penchant to argue. There's your issue and Constance herself has talked about it right here, about your rambling, unconcise, confusing posts. Counterproductive 'stuff'.
So what's new?

Here's a solution for you. Disagree all you want, but don't fight and argue. Just simply disagree.
That's not so hard now is it?

Anonymous said...

There is division regarding interpretation of Daniel 7 & 8. I personally believe it applies to the "time of the end" as said in Daniel 8:17.

King James Bible
So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

http://1844madesimple.org/why-antiochus-iv-is-not-the-little-horn-of-daniel-8

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

Protestants were indeed not involved in the siege of Vienna in 1529, but aren't you aware that the Turks tried again three years later and THAT'S when the protestants fought alongside the Catholics against them after the Peace Treaty of Nuremberg.

Is it surprising that protestants welcomed the distraction that Ottoman forces brought upon their persecutors? Far worse was the fighting between Catholic Holy Roman Emperor and Catholic King of France that actualy led to an Ottoman alliance with the latter.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

I’m going to weigh in on the conversation regarding the comments section of this blog than then say no more about it.

Whenever I enter the comments section of any blog and see hundreds of posting from the same individual I press the back button. I know Constance doesn’t like to moderate and restrict free speech. I respect that. She probably doesn’t have time to do so either.

I think the comments section here gets so hostile and combative that I avoid it except when something significant happens and I want to pay attention to other researchers’ posts. Over the past few years I’ve probably glanced in the comments section maybe 5 or 6 times. When I have read through the posts I leave feeling as though I just experienced a beat down. I see no reason why every article's comments section needs to be so combative.

This criticism does not in any way reflect upon my opinion of Constance and the many really good people here. I just think this area needs to be tempered a bit.

Anonymous said...

PS Susanna, the ships involved at Lepanto - which were optimised for Mediterranean naval warfare - were largely oared galleys, and protestants simply didn't have any because galleys are not suitable for the non-Mediterranean seas off protestant lands

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

"While acknowledging (as all the schools do) that the first beast is Babylon, the preterist interpretation identifies the second and third beast of Daniel 7 as Media and then Persia, with the fourth beast being Greece (which arises after Persia) and the little horn coming out of Greece as Antiochus Epiphanes. " etc.

At the risk of excess posting, I don't think you understand me. And if in some way I am not clear I apologize. Perhaps it is because you haven't read or have forgotten other posts regarding this in months past.

Antiochus Epiphanes is I agree not the little horn. Antiochus Epiphanes is a forerunner of the antichrist, a prototype, not the big deal himself.

However, though I fit the historicist category, I do not agree with the designations given above for three reasons.

a. the statue dream ends in the setting up of the Kingdom of Heaven, but not judgement scenes. That startup was done when Jesus died and rose again.

b. Daniel is told that these prophecies are for the time of the end and relates that to when people will run to and fro and knowledge will increase. That is only the past 300 years. Therefore these cannot be empires of the past, and if they were the angel would have told Daniel that these are THREE kingdoms plus the one he was in, not FOUR kingdoms (or kings) to arise after him. Therefore no ancient kingdom is involved, and we have to look to more recent indicators.

c. The four beasts dream vision segues into the Second Coming, because here The Ancient of Days comes, the saints rule, and books are opened and there is judgement. Revelation adds more to this brief telescoped picture.

I am not alone in this, Chris White' "The Contemporaneous Beast View" first cued me to this, then I went looking on youtube for identification of these beasts, which he did not attempt to do. I found good arguments for the eagle winged lion being Britain and America, and I would add NATO, American's puppet. The Bear would be relevant to modern symbolism and that is Russia, also Ursa Major transits over Russia and Siberia every night there, this is called astrogeology, and while it may have been used in kinds of divinatory astrological speculation it is also good direction location and suchlike. you can leave out the astrology angle and you have the same thing.

The only thing I couldn't nail was the four headed leopard, China seems best and a future Kurdistan as a runner up possibility but less likely because they would have to duplicate what China is already doing in Africa.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

To be in prophecy you have to be IN the Middle East or a MAJOR PLAYER in the Middle East. Britain and America reshaped the map, created the national boundaries, and put Israel in place and supported it. The Bear could easily extend its borders into the Middle East after a war with Turkey. China and Russia are both supporting Assad and Iran. They are current major players there and no reason to expect this to lessen. MONTHS BEFORE RUSSIA AND CHINA WERE POSITIONING SHIPS WITH TROOPS AND WEAPONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, I PREDICTED THEY WOULD DO SO ON THE BASIS OF THIS ASSESSMENT. No mystical prophetic visions or dreams or voices, just looked at the prophecy and looked at how things were lining up.

Now, this could be a dry run that will fizzle out, and the real thing happen years or centuries or a thousand years later. But it looks more like the real thing.

the fourth empire does not inherit from the previous but stomps and crushes the rest. The eagle winged lion apparently remains, but reduced have had its wings pulled off it and made to stand up like a man and given a man's heart, so this sounds like we lose air and space power get a real smack down and stop being beastial and become more like a human, a major repentance will come.

The ten horns on the Revelation beast seems to relate it to this last beast, and it has the mouth not necessarily face of a lion, the body (infrastructure) of a leopard (guess whose building infrastructure in Africa) and the feet (weapons someone pointed out) of a bear (guess whose weapons are primarily those used in Africa).

Anonymous said...

I don't think it is necessary to take posts (that make plain statements written at face value) to be hounded and picked apart by assumptions that are aimed at trying to label positions (and set up arguments) based on such small information. Good discussion poses good questions to draw out more information, not stifle conversation before it can even get started. Good conversation let's someone volunteer more of their content and opinion, rather than trying to mind read (guessing their way into it) and then begin to fill in the blanks for them, which generally ends up misrepresenting another's offerings. That is hostile to good communication and I get very tired on this comments section when Christine Erikson uses those tactics. That is why she is skipped in collapse comments so often.
Also makes it harder to get at the good postings.

Anonymous said...

"...interpretation Daniel's prophecy very differently than you. Peace will be the means that brings forth destruction. This suggests people will be seduced into acceptance. Jesus also said that toward the end it would be as in the days of Noah. One characteristic that defines those days is the earth was filled with violence. I think that condition currently exists."

Exactly.

When they say 'peace and safety' (security) watch out. These very discussions are on all the tables of the globalists as we speak.

Anonymous said...

An indicator of what time it is.
Deut. 28: 43: The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.

Coming in like a flood.

Marko said...

"the fourth empire does not inherit from the previous but stomps and crushes the rest. The eagle winged lion apparently remains, but reduced have had its wings pulled off it and made to stand up like a man and given a man's heart, so this sounds like we lose air and space power get a real smack down and stop being beastial and become more like a human, a major repentance will come."

I hope you're right about that one, Christine. It does make sense in light of other visions and dreams that people have had, and the sentimental side of me just likes the idea. :^)

Anonymous said...

First beast in Daniel 7: A lion is given a man's heart... is this a good thing ie better than the heart of a ravening lion, or a bad thing because man's heart is corrupt?

Anonymous said...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-09/global-economic-reset-has-begun

Other resets are scheduled as well....

Anonymous said...

http://www.fostering-globalcitizenship.net/index.php/2-news/94-berlin-launches-a-visionary-project-for-interfaith-dialogue

Imagine if this idea was proposed for Temple Mount....


“Jerusalem the holy city of three major religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, plays a very symbolic and very powerful part in the current tensions between the Muslim world and the western world. I think it would be equally powerful as a symbol if Jerusalem were to become the center, acknowledged as the center of all of these three religions.”

Desmond Tutu, Alliance of Civilizations

Maybe he would think something like this would be a good idea?
May not be that far fetched in the mind of a globalist.

Anonymous said...

Not to be outdone by the US. Click on the circle:

http://spreadingpeace.net

It looks like things are going according to script. The problem is created and then the globalist solve it with a false solution.

ABC today had the false passports which are being used to bring in non-Syrians. Solution-biometrics or rfid.

The Donald Trump remarks are timed perfectly to create more reaction or backlash. It reminds me of 911 and also the AIDs crisis. These situations are used to create hatred at first, and then the reaction is more "tolerance".

It's a big game and we are being played.

Susanna said...

Anonuymous 2:04 P.M. and 2:21 P.M.


Sources please.

Anonymous said...

Karen Armstrong is still busy:

http://www.iipcnet.org

Anonymous said...

This is how Islam creeps in and overtakes. There were many churches back several years ago, allow Muslim Imams to come in and speak at their churches. The mosques did not reciprocate by letting Pastors come in a preach.

Islam was spread by territorial conquest and political domination. You can see how many more Muslims we have in government now, as opposed to a decade or so ago:

http://www.iipcnet.org/Blog/Post/20/Imam-Mohamed-Magid,-IIPC-Chairman-Gives-the-Call-to-Prayer-at-Washington-National-Cathedral-

Donald Trump, if he really wanted to win, should have used wisdom in his remarks. He looks more and more like a Ross Perot type, who will be used to hand the election to Hillary since the media is not willing to tell any truth whatsoever about her server, Benghazi etc. Since her advisor is tied to the Muslim Brotherhood we should expect more of this cultural transformation to take place. This is part of the NWO multiculturalism that George Soros talks about who wants the borders taken down. The only candidate who will win, will be willing to implement this multicultural, inter religious , environmental, one world economy agenda.

Regardless of who wins the election, they will only get in if they are a player in this new world order.

Anonymous said...

Rich,

I agree.

Anonymous said...

One last comment. I find it amusing that Erdogan who was a high level group member of AOC a few years back is now opening his doors to let fighters in to attack Assad. Erdogan is a very dangerous man. He is also responsible for letting oil from ISIS be funneled through his country.

Now as a result, EU wants to start having talks to include him in the EU again. That makes about as much sense as I don't know what. Why would Europe want to deal with him when Europeans are electing right wing politicians in reaction to the immigration/terrorism crisis? Again we see the dialectic at work.

The goal has been to build this multi-cultural, multi-religious empire, with eventually Jerusalem as its capital. It hasn't happened yet, but eventually we will see the battle for Jerusalem as the center of the world religions with a false peace maker. First we need madness, mayhem and destruction to convince people to accept the counterfeit peace.

Constance Cumbey said...

Has anybody seen the movie TRANSCENDENCE? I'm 1/3 of the way through watching the video. It looks to me like a propaganda attack on those opposing theories of "Co-Evolution; Kurzweil; trans-humanism; etc., ad nauseum.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

anon 12:19 I think its to get Nazis back in power as I said several days ago,

if you examine the Nazi background of the EU and how it matches exactly to the old Nazi plan for organizing Europe, then another game is in play. not as simple as clash of civilizations, but using it.

let the right wing and Europe for Europeans and closet Nazi power build up to where it can face down a threat.

bring in the threat.

the soon radicalized population joins the skinhead etc. and other uprising.

threat is eradicated.

Nazis back in power

Susanna said...

Dear Constance,

I saw the movie TRANSCENDENCE. It may very well have been a propaganda attack on those opposing the theories you mentioned.

What I thought was particularly creepy was the idea that the human mind/soul could be "downloaded" into a machine. This implies that the human mind/soul is an exclusively material entity.

The argument against this has always been - and still is - that if the human mind/soul were an entirely material entity, it would not be able to consider immaterial concepts.

Susanna said...

Christine,

Without meaning to be argumentative, I must say that I have not seen any evidence that the individual identity of a person can be copied exactly.

Computers do not "consider" anything - material or immaterial. They compute what is programmed into them by persons who are capable of considering material and immaterial concepts.

I suppose that there might be technology by which such duplication of a person's identity might be imitated.

One thing I have heard about is computer brain interface which would allow communication by those who have "locked in syndrome" and might otherwise be considered in a vegetative state. This involves brainwaves which are material ( energy) and measurable.


From Brain To Computer: Helping 'Locked-In' Patient Get His Thoughts Out
Updated October 27, 2014·10:08 AM ET ·
NPR Staff
http://www.npr.org/2014/10/26/359081510/electrode-cap-helped-locked-in-patient-get-his-thoughts-out
_________________________________________________________________

In any case, it is a fascinating subject.

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

I stated that the Turks marched again towards Vienna in 1532 after their repulse in 1529, and that in 1532 they turned back because of the strength of the forces they faced, in which protestants willingly accepted Catholic command following the Peace Treaty of Nuremberg between Catholic and protestant Germanic princes. You asked for sources. Here is the relevant passage from Will Durant's multi-volume work The Story of Civilization. vol 6: The Reformation (which is copiously referenced), section 2 of chapter 20:

While the Diet was yet in session several states formed a Catholic League for the defense and restoration of the traditional faith. Interpreting this as a martial gesture, Protestant princes and cities organized (March 1531) the Schmalkaldic League, which took its name from its birthplace near Erfurt. When the period of grace ran out, Ferdinand, now "King of the Romans," proposed to [his brother, the Holy Roman Emperor] Charles to begin war. But Charles was not yet ready. Suleiman was planning another attack upon Vienna; Suleiman's confederate, Barbarossa, was raiding Christian commerce in the Mediterranean; and Suleiman's ally, Francis of France, was waiting to pounce upon Milan the moment Charles became involved in a German civil war. In April 1531, instead of enforcing the Augsburg decree, he suspended it, and asked for Protestant aid against the Turks. Luther and the princes responded loyally; Lutherans and Catholics signed the Peace of Nuremberg (July 23, 1532), pledging united aid to Ferdinand, and mutual religious toleration until a general council should be convened. So numerous an army of Protestant and Catholic Germans, of Spanish and Italian Catholics, gathered under the Emperor's standard at Vienna that Suleiman found the omens unfavorable and turned back to Constantinople...

Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1913 wrote:

The Diet of Nuremberg, 1532, gave religious freedom at least for a time: Protestants were allowed to continue the innovations already introduced by them and all processes begun against them in the Imperial Chamber, on account of these innovations, were suspended, pending the settlement of the whole religious question by a great council to be called within the year. The aid against the Turks which the emperor and king desired was granted.

This can be found online at

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11168a.htm

In the following website is confirmation that Suleiman did indeed try again in 1532:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_wars_in_Europe#1526.E2.80.931566:_Conquest_of_the_Hungarian_Kingdom

Will Durant made passing mention in the passage reproduced above of the pact between Catholic Francois I of France and the Muslim Ottomans against Catholic Emperor Charles V. Here are the details of that alliance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance

Blame Francois if you like, but this alliance would never have happened had not Emperor Charles' armies persistently attacked his fellow Catholic monarch Francois. It is a bit much to complain about protestants welcoming the Ottoman attack on their persecutor Charles without mentioning this alliance!

I said also that protestants were absent from Lepanto because they didn't have any Mediterranean shorelines and therefore had no oared galleys, which were the best ships for Mediterranean naval warfare but which were unsuitable for the bigger seas off northern protestant coasts. (Perhaps also the Holy League would not have accepted protestant help by 1571?) The difference between Mediterranean and northern European warships in that era is detailed (with passing mention of Lepanto) in chapter 6 of the section on the Tudors of G.M. Trevelyan's History of England. All 212 ships of the Holy League at Lepanto had oars; see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto

and verify the Wikipedia definition of "galley" and "galleasse".

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:53

Technology reporter Kurt Knutsson was on Fox and Friends this morning. He said within 5 years there will be wallpaper that talks with us the same as Siri. So now Christine may actually lose the arguments she has with her wallpaper.

This wallpaper is already available on the iphone.

https://twitter.com/ar72014/status/380824921360064512

paul said...

Christine,

"I had fun trying to throw it into a loop, succeeded at least once."

That's so Christine of you.

Constance Cumbey said...

I just went to the CARM post of Matt Slick. This is the first I've heard of this one, but frankly my mouth is open and I'm appalled at the money-teering rather than "monitoring". It looks like a world class money-maker and the APOLOGETICS CRUISE is just a little more than I can personally stomach, having made the supreme financial sacrifices we did over the past 35 years to get this word out. I think their definition of what is New Age and what is not is inadequate and even misleading. Western mysticism plays just as large a role in the New Age Movement as Eastern mysticism. In fact, the name Theosophy itself came from the western mysticism of William Law. I wonder why Mr. Matt Slick never contacted me? Maybe God gave him that name with a sense of humor!

https://carm.org/cruise

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

In regards to my 9:23 comment, I need to add that the name Madame Blavatsky chose for her organization, THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, came from the Western mysticism of JACOB BOEHME as translated and circulated by WILLIAM LAW. William Law was also a personal favorite of Aldous Huxley.

Constance

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

"So now Christine may actually lose the arguments she has with her wallpaper."
hypothetical situation, having taken an adult ed course late in life to finally get my GED I was educated by Common Core. Talking to wallpaper which had to be programmed with correct math to work, I would say "2 + 2 = 5" and it would say "no, 2 + 2 = 4" I lose the argument.

""I had fun trying to throw it into a loop, succeeded at least once."

That's so Christine of you."

I'd only do that to a machine, not a human.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

"Without meaning to be argumentative, I must say that I have not seen any evidence that the individual identity of a person can be copied exactly."

bad phrasing of mine I should have phrased it more future tense, because it can't be done that well now, but what can be done now shows what is being worked on and could be done.

"Computers do not "consider" anything - material or immaterial. They compute what is programmed into them by persons who are capable of considering material and immaterial concepts. "

There is a certain similarity between how computers and the brain works.

define "consider."

define "concepts."

define "material and immaterial."

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

if immaterial includes what is not here now but could be, then computers that are designed to figure potential future from patterns in the past and present are dealing in immaterial terms. A lot of our own thinking is programmed by what we learn and subject to the same GIGO rule, garbage in garbage out. (I am sure someone will apply this to me). WE have an ability to self reflect and reexamine and choose and keep some reject some calculate new from what is there speculate, etc. so do self correcting machines. The main point about uploading consciousness (which no one has ever unambiguously defined) is that all you will have is your psychological twin, SIMILARITY EVEN TO THE SLIGHTEST EXACT DETAIL IS NOT IDENTITY.

This would simulate the leaving of someone's research library, diaries and recorded thoughts things left behind in a bequest at death, not the person him or herself. It would be far more detailed but basically it would be a robot, a Stepford person.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

by the way, I came to the conclusion long ago that philosophy is bunk. Aristotle and Plato included. Not that they didn't have some ideas of use to the Church Fathers in talking with educated pagans. Reading ancient and modern philosophers the most they can do is describe an observed thing (including consciousness, will, etc.) but however they try they can't really define it exactly they all differ about the categories within consciousness and other things. The earliest Church writers considered them useless, it was later that some used the lingo of educated paganism to defend Christianity and sometimes recruit some. St. Justin Martyr started as a philosopher, but could find no satisfaction in any system till he met an aged Christian.

Anonymous said...

Throwing loops to this blog goes on regularly, and so Christine of you.
See? You do like to play games.


Anonymous said...

Christine and Susanna,

I believe that what it is to be a conscious human being involves not just the brain with its prior structures but also the way in which the cells of the brain interlink with each other, with various linkage strengths between the myriad pairs of cells. That in turn is governed by sensory inputs - not least from millions of touch receptors - over a period of years. Consequently the idea that you can replicate a human via a computer - even a neural net computer able to tune its linkages, rather than a serial processor - is not tenable. The body and its inputs to the brain are part of what it is to be human. This matches scripture, which treats mind and body as a unity, very well.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

"Throwing loops to this blog goes on regularly, and so Christine of you.
See? You do like to play games." if you can't tell complex thought and keeping track of the big picture and its likely drivers, from playing games, then I pity you.

Anonymous said...

The biggest game of all is believing in one's own self-importance (@ 11:29).

Anonymous said...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CLIMATE_COUNTDOWN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-12-11-08-38-28


Mark Twain: “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.”

Anonymous said...

The computer would always be wrong, wouldn't it?

Anonymous said...

11:21 AM
I think you are right. People are made in God's Image. No one can totally replicate His work. (and redeemable thank You Lord so in Him we can actually upgrade).
Computers are only be a knock-off of the human mind so can only be a limited good and degrade from there.

Susanna said...

Anonymous 5:55 A.M.

Re:The aid against the Turks which the emperor and king desired was granted.

Excuse me. I already quoted an article at 7:24 P.M. that described this so-called "aid" that was "desired" and "granted" as a few "Pater Nosters" and some advice. It did not involve Protestants fighting shoulder to shoulder with the Catholics against the Turks.

Moreover, I don't agree with Durant. Here is why.

Following the Turkish conquest of Constantinople in 1453 by Mehmet II and the unification of the Middle East under Selim I, Suleiman the Magnificent, the son of Selim, managed to expand Ottoman rule to the Balkans. The Habsburg Empire thus entered into direct conflict with the Ottomans.

At the same time the Protestant Reformation was taking place in numerous areas of northern and central Europe, in harsh opposition to Papal authority and the Holy Roman Empire led by Emperor Charles V. This situation led the Protestants to consider various forms of cooperation and rapprochement (religious, commercial, military) with the Muslim world, in opposition to their common Habsburg enemy.

Early religious accommodation (15th–17th centuries)

During the development of the Reformation, Protestantism and Islam were considered closer to each other than they were to Catholicism: "Islam was seen as closer to Protestantism in banning images from places of worship, in not treating marriage as a sacrament and in rejecting monastic orders".

Mutual tolerance

The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire was known for his tolerance of the Christian and Jewish faiths within his dominions, whereas the King of Spain did not tolerate the Protestant faith. The Ottoman Empire was indeed known at that time for its religious tolerance. Various religious refugees, such as the Huguenots, some Anglicans, Quakers, Anabaptists or even Jesuits or Capuchins were able to find refuge at Istanbul and in the Ottoman Empire, where they were given right of residence and worship. Further, the Ottomans supported the Calvinists in Transylvania and Hungary but also in France. The contemporary French thinker Jean Bodin wrote:


"The great emperor of the Turks does with as great devotion as any prince in the world honour and observe the religion by him received from his ancestors, and yet detests he not the strange religions of others; but on the contrary permits every man to live according to his conscience: yes, and that more is, near unto his palace at Pera, suffers four diverse religions viz. that of the Jews, that of the Christians, that of the Grecians, and that of the Mahometans"

— Jean Bodin.

Martin Luther, in his 1528 pamphlet, On War against the Turk, calls for the Germans to resist the Ottoman invasion of Europe, as the catastrophic Siege of Vienna was lurking, but expressed views of Islam which, compared with his virulent anti-Semitism, are relatively mild. On the one hand, Luther extensively criticized the principles of Islam; on the other hand, he also expressed tolerance for the Islamic faith:


"Let the Turk believe and live as he will, just as one lets the papacy and other false Christians live."

— Excerpt from On war against the Turk, 1529.

However, this statement mentions "Turks", and it is not clear whether the meaning was of "Turks" as a representation of the specific rule of the Ottoman Empire, or as a representation of Islam in general.

Martin Luther's ambivalence also appears in one of his other comments, in which he said that "A smart Turk makes a better ruler than a dumb Christian".


cont.

Susanna said...

cont....

At one point, it sounds like Luther came close to kissing the Koran.


Martin Luther also took note of the similarities between Islam and Protestantism in the rejection of idols, although he noted Islam was much more drastic in its complete rejection of images. In On War against the Turk, Luther is actually less critical of the Turks than he is of the Pope, whom he calls an anti-Christ, or the Jews, whom he describes as "the Devil incarnate". He urges his contemporaries to also see the good aspects in the Turks, and refers to some who were favourable to the Ottoman Empire, and "who actually want the Turk to come and rule, because they think that our German people are wild and uncivilized - indeed that they are half-devil and half-man".

The Ottomans also felt closer to the Protestants than to the Catholics. At one point, a letter was sent from Suleiman the Magnificent to the "Lutherans" in Flanders, claiming that he felt close to them, "since they did not worship idols, believed in one God and fought against the Pope and Emperor".

This notion of religious similarities was again taken up in epistolary exchanges between Elizabeth I of England and Sultan Murad III. In one correspondence, Murad entertained the notion that Islam and Protestantism had "much more in common than either did with Roman Catholicism, as both rejected the worship of idols", and argued for an alliance between England and the Ottoman Empire.

In a 1574 letter to the "Members of the Lutheran sect in Flanders and Spain", Murad III made considerable efforts to highlight the similarities between Islamic and Protestants principles. He wrote:


"As you, for your part, do not worship idols, you have banished the idols and portraits and "bells" from churches, and declared your faith by stating that God Almighty is one and Holy Jesus is His Prophet and Servant, and now, with heart and soul, are seeking and desirous of the true faith; but the faithless one they call Papa does not recognize his Creator as One, ascribing divinity to Holy Jesus (upon him be peace!), and worshiping idols and pictures which he has made with his own hands, thus casting doubt upon the oneness of God and instigating how many servants to that path of error"

— 1574 letter of Murad III to the "Members of the Lutheran sect in Flanders and Spain".

Such claims seem to have been politically inspired as well, with the Ottomans trying to establish religious common ground as a way to secure a political alliance. Elizabeth I herself however made efforts to adjust her own religious rhetoric in order to minimize differences with the Ottomans and facilitate relations. In her correspondence with Murad, she stresses the monotheism and the anti-idolatry of her religion, by uniquely describing herself as:


"Elizabeth, by the grace of the most mighty God, the three part and yet singular Creator of Heaven and Earth, Queen of England, France and Ireland, the most invincible and most mighty defender of the Christian faith against all the idolatry of those unworthy ones that live amongst Christians, and falsely profess the name of Christ"

— Letter of Elizabeth I to Murad III.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam

Susanna said...


Cont.

And yes I do most certainly also blame Francis I of France who was not exactly a paragon of Catholic religious virtue. Francis I of France saw the Protestant movement as politically useful as it caused many German princes to turn against his enemy Charles V, and allowed his own lust for power to outrun his scruples. "Turco-Calvinism" which refers to the alliance or rapprochement between the Protestant Reformation and the Ottoman Empire during the 16th century and involved the Dutch in particular, was a continuation of this sorry mis-alliance.


Military cooperation between the Ottoman Empire and European powers started in earnest with the Franco-Ottoman alliance of 1535. The alliance provided strategic support to, and effectively protected, the kingdom of France from the ambitions of Charles V. It also gave the opportunity for the Ottoman Empire to become involved in European diplomacy and gain prestige in its European dominions. Side effects included a lot of negative propaganda against the actions of France and its "unholy" alliance with a Muslim power. According to historian Arthur Hassall the consequences of the Franco-Ottoman alliance were far-reaching: "The Ottoman alliance had powerfully contributed to save France from the grasp of Charles V, it had certainly aided Protestantism in Germany, and from a French point of view, it had rescued the North German allies of Francis I."

Even after the 1571 Battle of Lepanto Ottoman support for France would continue however, as well as support for the Dutch and the English after 1580, and support for Protestants and Calvinists, as a way to counter Habsburg attempts at supremacy in Europe. Various overtures were made by Ottoman rulers to the Protestants, who were also fighting against a common enemy, the Catholic House of Habsburg. Suleiman the Magnificent is known to have sent at least one letter to the "Lutherans" in Flanders, offering troops at the time they would request. Murad III is also known to have advocated to Elizabeth I an alliance between England and the Ottoman Empire.

Overall, the military activism of the Ottoman Empire on the southern European front probably was the reason why Lutheranism was able to survive in spite of the opposition of Charles V and reach recognition at the Peace of Augsburg in September 1555: "the consolidation, expansion and legitimization of Lutheranism in Germany by 1555 should be attributed to Ottoman imperialism more than to any other single factor".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_and_Islam
____________________________________________________________


Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Susanna

shoulder to shoulder or not doesn't matter, because it was a momentary alliance
nothing more. what do you mean a few pater nesters? that the protestants were praying
for the Catholics, why would the Catholics care if heretics prayed for them or not? in trying to establish protestant support for the turks I came across several articles going contrary, regarding Lepanto,
where Theodore Shoebat said they fought on the side of the Turks, but he was probably confusing that with the other fight at Vienna where apparently there was collusion like this.

most protestant support of the Turks seemed to be because they, being viewed as not
idolatrous, were given free rein in Turkish Hungary and even allowed to proselytize
in Turkish lands, but now I can't find the articles that showed opposition. I've been using Bing and the results seem to differ on the same search terms.

My guess is it was mixed, depending on how much slack they thought they'd get from
the turks and depending on whether they knew of atrocities as normative or not. But
yes, there was more support for islam than for RC by the protestants in those days.

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

I'm sorry that you heap opprobrium on Francois I of France for allying with the Ottomans while giving Holy Roman Emperor Charles V a free pass. Had Charles not continually attacked Francois, his fellow Catholic, in a pincer movement from Spain and Germany, Francois would never have dreamed of allying with Muslims. Charles, incidentally, did exactly the same: he allied with the Shi'ite Persians who would attack the Ottomans in the rear if the Ottomans deployed their forces against Charles. Your references clearly show that protestants welcomed a distraction for the Catholic powers who were persecuting them, which is scarcely surprising. If Luther came close to kissing the Quran then he was still more distant than John Paul II, who actually did. Jews also fared better under Islam than under Catholicism in late mediaeval times.

But enough catcalling; let's go deeper. Jesus never coerced anybody in belief; he simply warned of the dire consequences of wrong belief on the day of Judgement. THAT is what Charles should have done with protestant subjects, of course. (And so should protestant princes with Catholic subjects, later on; but we are discussing the early Reformation just now.)

Francois and Charles, and also their contemporary Henry VIII of England, regarded war - against Catholic, protestant or Muslim regardless - as a heady combination of sport and high-stake gambling, with added snob value deriving from its exclusivity to themselves. War is expensive to wage, but rulers aim to justify its misery by citing the benefit of victory for their peoples, while their armed classes seek to prove their prowess and their bards celebrate it. Fiends, the lot of them.

I have quoted both a secular and a devout Catholic source to the effect that in 1532 Germanic protestants stood shoulder to shoulder with Catholics against the invading Ottomans, and did so under Catholic overarching command. That had the effect of deterring the Ottomans. Your reference points out that one particular Catholic Germanic prince appealed to Luther for prayer (not for soldiers), and got it; that is not inconsistent with Durant saying that protestant princes of OTHER Germanic principalities lent their men. To maintain your assertion that protestant support was not more than a few paternosters, you need to show that that did not happen, as against the references I gave that it did. Can you do that?

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Susanna said...

Christine,

I don't know what Shoebat could be referring to, but there is nothing to indicate that Protestants fought shoulder to shoulder with the Turks in any battles- including the Battle of Lepanto.



Re:what do you mean a few pater nesters? that the protestants were praying

Exactly. The "aid" that was requested was prayers and spiritual advice" according to the article I quoted earlier. The "aid" that was given was a few "Pater Nosters" ( Latin for "Our Fathers"......a.k.a. The Lord's Prayer).

This is not merely my opinion. Here is my quote again from 7:24 PM:

The Peace of Nuremberg had included an item obliging the signatories to assist the Emperor in the defence of Europe against the Turks.

Swiftly came a request, in August 1532, to Luther from Duke Joachim of Brandenburg, who was to lead a contingent of the Saxon army against the Turks. He wanted prayers for his undertaking and spiritual advice. In the old days he would have had a blessing from the local bishop and an Indulgence.

In his response, serious and detailed, almost paternal, if not quite episcopal or pontifical, Luther said he wished to move out to war spiritually with our earnest prayers, to join with the dear Emperor Charles and his soldiers’ — he still thought Charles V ill-advised rather than perverse. He spoke of the dangers of useless self-congratulation: they were not to place reliance in the Turks being altogether wrong and God’s enemy while we are innocent and righteous. . . rather fight in the fear of God and in reliance on his grace alone. . . I pray that in such a war our people by no means seek honour, glory, land, booty, etc., but only the glory of God and. . . defence of poor Christians and subjects . . . May Your Sovereign Grace now go forth in God’s name, . . . Our Pater Noster shall follow you
.........

http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=801&C=1070
__________________________________________________________________________

Re: why would the Catholics care if heretics prayed for them or not?

Good question. Since it is Martin Luther who is widely acknowledged to have started the Reformation with his 1517 work The Ninety-Five Theses, the Reformation was still more or less in its infancy when the first Sieges of Vienna occurred. The "heretics" were mostly Catholic priests like Martin Luther who was not excommunicated until January 3, 1521. The Siege of Vienna was in 1529. So the only thing that I can think of is that the rift between Catholics and Protestants had not yet fully set in and Catholics - especially the laity - were still able to consider Protestants as "Catholic."

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Susanna,

Shoebat was saying the protestants fought AGAINST the Catholics shoulder to shoulder with the Turks at Lepanto. I could find no support for this anywhere, except a reference to this happening at an earlier or later siege of Vienna. I DID find a lot of indication of protestant siding against moslems at times, and siding with them at times, depending on what they could get from them.

I think Shoebat had Lepanto confused with Vienna.

But asking Luther for prayers instead of men is appropriate since Luther did not have an army under his command, and could at most be an influence to push protestants who DID have warriors to join the fight against the Turks.

But what little I could find I lost track of, since I was only after Lepanto information, and on redoing the searches couldn't find the reference that I read, to PROTESTANT DEAD FOUND AMONG THE TURKISH FORCES DEAD AFTER THE WAR AT ISSUE which I think was the siege of Vienna. yes, there were protestants on the Turkish side, but I couldn't find support for protestants fighting for the turks at Lepanto. It may be that protestant forces were individuals and groups who went under Catholic commanders, but were not representative of any king but rather volunteers.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

It must also be remembered, aside from the issue of the date of Luther's excommunication, that he was NOT a Calvinist. in America and some of England we are used to a Calvinist version of Protestantism. But the original Lutheranism, retained in the conservative Lutheran denominations, retained art, stained glass windows, great honor attitude towards Mary, recognition that the Eucharist does indeed contain the real Body and Blood of Christ (aka "real presence") though they differed as to whether any actually bread and wine or only appearance "accidents" of that remained, and discouraged prayers for the dead because of the racked RC had made of it, but did not deny them altogether, and was more nuanced about predestination vs. free will than Calvin, who felt they had not gone far enough away from RC.

I suspect it was Calvin and Zwingli followers who were more inclined to actively support islam.

Susanna said...

Anonymous 3:40 P.M.

Re: To maintain your assertion that protestant support was not more than a few paternosters, you need to show that that did not happen, as against the references I gave that it did. Can you do that?

Sure. All I have to do is to allow the alliances the Protestants made - and attempted to make - with the Ottoman rulers to glaringly speak for themselves. Am I to believe that after making alliances with the Ottoman rulers the Protestant signatories would turn around and fight shoulder to shoulder with the Catholics against their new "allies?" I don't think so.

As for Francoise, he does not deserve a pass. It was feared that he may have been preparing to establish a state church such as the one established in England by Henry VIII. Right from the beginning of his reign Francoise himself was a powermongering and warmongering monarch who sought election as Holy Roman emperor and lost against Charles V. Nota bene. We are talking about an election here, not a battle.

If evidence could be found that the Protestants fought shoulder to shoulder with any "Catholic," it would have likely been Francoise.

Upon becoming king, Francis embarked on the Third French Invasion of Italy to reclaim the duchy of Milan and the kingdom of Naples that his two predecessors had held and lost. He defeated the Swiss, who had established a protectorate over Milan, at Marignano (Melegnano) in September 1515. Terrified that Francis would march to Rome and depose him, Pope Leo X (reigned 1513–1521) rushed to negotiate with him. The result was the Concordat of Bologna (1516), which established the governance of the French Church as it lasted to 1789. The king was given the right to appoint French bishops, subject to papal approval. The concordat enhanced royal control over the church in France and reduced the attraction for the monarchy of the Protestant concept of the national church independent from Rome. ( i.e. the Church of England)

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Francis_I_(Holy_Roman_Empire).aspx
_______________________________________________________


In 1519 Francis sought election as Holy Roman emperor but lost out to Charles of Habsburg, who already was the king of Spain and ruler of the Netherlands. Once elected, Charles V demanded that Francis give up Milan, which he proclaimed was an imperial fief. At Francis's refusal, Charles declared war, and the rest of Francis's reign saw almost constant war with the emperor. After an imperial army captured Milan in 1522, Francis led an army into Italy, only to be defeated and captured at Pavia in February 1525. He was taken to Spain and held for ransom. Agreeing to the ransom, Francis persuaded Charles to exchange him for his two oldest sons, since only he as king could impose the taxes and transfer of lands necessary for the ransom. Once freed, he resumed the war, which ended in 1529 with the Peace of the Ladies, negotiated by Francis's mother and Charles's aunt, Margaret of Austria. Besides requiring a payment of two million gold crowns, the peace acknowledged French rule over Burgundy and Habsburg control of Flanders. Intermittent war with Charles V continued to the end of Francis's reign but with no significant results......

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Francis_I_(Holy_Roman_Empire).aspx

cont..

Susanna said...

cont.


Regarding Catholic reform, Francis's attitude was that the French Church did not need reforming, but if it did, he and his clergy would do it. He refused to support the Council of Trent when it was convoked in 1544.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Francis_I_(Holy_Roman_Empire).aspx


Turkey and France


1453–1739


‘Blood enmity’ with France: Charles V against Francis I

......The Habsburgs’ enmity with France, which had already begun under Maximilian I, was for a long time the factor that determined their policy in western Europe. For hundreds of years their ‘blood enmity’ resulted in a perpetual tit-for-tat. Even today, pro-Habsburg historians charge France with having acted wrongly in repeatedly allying themselves with Turks and Protestants.......

http://www.habsburger.net/en/chapter/blood-enmity-france-charles-v-against-francis-i?language=en

Anonymous said...

Skipping through much here again. Just looking at the number and length of MCE posts tells me to scrap it for finding anything on the blog today. The links I post only get lost in the shuffle (or scuffle)..........

Susanna said...

Christine,

Re: Shoebat was saying the protestants fought AGAINST the Catholics shoulder to shoulder with the Turks at Lepanto. I could find no support for this anywhere, except a reference to this happening at an earlier or later siege of Vienna. I DID find a lot of indication of protestant siding against moslems at times, and siding with them at times, depending on what they could get from them.

I think Shoebat had Lepanto confused with Vienna.


I could find no support for Shoebat's claim that Protestants fought against the Catholics shoulder to shoulder with the Turks either.

Re: It must also be remembered, aside from the issue of the date of Luther's excommunication, that he was NOT a Calvinist. in America and some of England we are used to a Calvinist version of Protestantism....

That is correct. In fact, Luther, at first, preserved many elements of Roman Catholicism.

Just FYI Catholics had their own heresy which was called "Calvinism" disguised as Catholicism. It was called Jansenism. But whereas the Calvinists tended to promote a "prosperity gospel" as the sign of predestination, the Jansenists tended to promote "signs and wonders" as a sign of predestination. An example of the latter was the "Convulsionaries of St. Medard."

Convulsionnaires of Saint-Médard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convulsionnaires_of_Saint-M%C3%A9dard

RayB said...

He did it AGAIN ! "Pope" Francis carries with him "at all times" a little booklet that is ... HIS WORDS ... "a history of God's FAILURE" i.e. "the way of the cross."

Those that truly know the God of the Bible, through grace & faith, would NEVER refer to Christ's sacrifice for sin on the cross as "God's failure" ... NEVER!

Is it any wonder that this man proclaims that the "god" of Islam (along with numerous other false religions' "gods") and Christianity is the "same entity" that goes by "many names?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqzqi4X617c

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

RayB

I recall hearing this before. I don't feel like watching the video it will depress me. I totally agree with you.

Anonymous said...

We "ain't seen nothin' yet" for how bad a turn all of this (done in "jesus' name" no less) will take RayB....

I agree also.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Maybe he's been reading Alliance of Civilizations High Level Group member Karen Armstrong’s Islam A Short History...

"…Where Christians discerned God's hand in apparent failure and defeat, when Jesus died on the cross, Muslims experience political success as sacramental and as a revelation of the divine presence in their lives…”

Armstrong had written she fantasized of being apostate before she entered the convent. When she and her sister were very young, her sister nearly died. Armstrong made “a deal" with God that if her sister’s life were to be spared she would become a nun. She became bitter over time that she would have to hold up her end of the bargain. But a deal's a deal; so she entered the convent a disgruntled teen and exited with even more bile.

During her youthful years, Armstrong spent much of her free time reading encyclopedias. She desired to be smarter than her peers. This clearly was a waste of time. Armstrong's writings are filled with inaccuracies. I've believe much of it is deliberate wherever it serves to portray Christianity poorly.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

My last response was directed toward RayB's 6:24 PM post.

Anonymous said...

Susanna,

Let us disentangle several strands here. First, I'll leave responding to Christine over the events of the 16th century to you. (In particular I have not mentioned Shoebat and I am not going to.) Second, I categorise all of Charles V, Henry VIII and Francois I (not "Francoise" which is a woman's name) as warmongers who would ally with their worst adversary if they thought it would give them an edge on each other. Francois and Charles were even brothers-in-law, so it was just a family tiff, really - except that the power these men wielded caused magnification of their tiffs into wars that caused the deaths of tens of thousands. Monsters, all of the three. Third, you don't seem to take the point that Germany was composed of hundreds of tiny States, and even those States which had protestant rulers acted differently. Which of them made alliances with the Turks when? To assert that some did does not prove that others did not ally with the Catholic ones under Charles against the Turks in 1532. We even know which ones: those who signed the Peace Treaty of Nuremberg in the summer of 1532. THEY are the protestant States who acted in consort with the Catholics against the Turks. In any serious study of 16th century Germany you have to take it at State level. That the Turks were deterred without a serious battle is irrelevant: so were the Soviets by the unity of NATO. The unity is the point. If you want to disprove my assertion - for which I have provided references - you have to give references showing that the protestant signatories of the Peace Treaty of Nuremberg declined to contribute to the armed force that deterred Suleiman in 1532.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

to those here who think Russia is Gog Magog http://thecometsofgod.com/dwnlds/appndx-b.pdf The idea of Russia as Gog Magog is based on an error of Josephus' at odds with ancient writers.

Anonymous said...

http://www.fostering-globalcitizenship.net/index.php/2-news/94-berlin-launches-a-visionary-project-for-interfaith-dialogue

Rich, this is from my 10:42 PM that mentions Desmond Tutu, another one of those who has his own versions of history too, and wondered your thoughts and Constance's too.

RayB said...

My take on WHY the "pope" keeps referring to God's "failure," along with his denying Christ as the ONLY way to God the Father, is that in order for the New World Religion to take root, Christ MUST take on the role as "one way" of "MANY ways via MANY names (i.e. “religions"). Jesus Christ must be severely diminished if the One World Religion is to succeed. In a real sense, this is about as New Age as it gets.

Rome no doubt sees itself as a major player in the coming One World Government, along with the One World Church. They have always played a major role in world geopolitics, as evidenced by the Lateran Treaty with Mussolini along with the Concordat with Nazi Germany. Under the Lateran Treaty of 1929, Mussolini’s fascist government agreed to give the Vatican financial support along with recognizing the Vatican as an independent STATE in return for public support for Mussolini by the Papacy. Mussolini strongly believed that his Fascist movement could not succeed in predominant Catholic Italy without the support of the Vatican.

Under the Concordat of 1933 between the Vatican and Nazi Germany, the Catholic Church agreed to constraints placed upon its clergy regarding political activity. Prior to the signing of the Concordat, there were those in the Catholic clergy who were quite critical of Hitler and the Nazis, after its signing, this vocal criticism virtually ceased. There were a few priests, to their credit, that continued to speak out against Nazism in spite of the official agreement that was sanctioned by the pope and the Vatican. The world’s media at that time were collectively outraged, claiming that the Vatican’s agreement with Nazi Germany virtually sanctioned this evil government, and by doing so, gave Nazism credibility on the world’s stage.

I bring this to your attention only with the intent to illustrate how Rome really operates in the area of geopolitics. In our day, the Climate Change movement is nothing short of an incremental attempt to bring about World Government, all under the false pretense to “save the earth.” The Papacy’s continual endorsement of this obvious fraudulent science is another illustration of Rome’s attempt to be part of the coming One World Government/Religion power structure.

Anonymous said...

Good point RayB.

So Jesus has failed and needs others "help" in that way of thinking then....

God is not mocked.
I shutter to think the outcome.

Susanna said...

Anonymous 7:26 P.M.


In September 1529, after defeating the Hungarians at the Battle of Mohacs, the Ottoman Turks and their allies laid siege to Vienna – the famous Siege of Vienna of 1529.

To repeat what I posted earlier....according to Ottoman historian Norman Itzkowitz,

the Ottomans saw their support of the Protestants against the Hapsburgs as a major component of their strategy in Europe........

.....During Ottoman rule in Hungary, Catholics left in large numbers while at the number of Protestants grew dramatically. Ian Almond attributes this to the systematic preference for Protestants over Catholics in virtually all matters and states that “the Ottomans helped the Protestants so much that some historians interpret the Turkish victory of the Battle of Mohacs as a phase of the Reformation. Philip Melanchthon was apparently so excited about the events there that he wanted to visit Hungary
......read more....

http://reimaginingcordoba.com/2013/07/03/martin-luther-on-the-turks-and-islam/
__________________________________________________________

CHAPTER VII.

THE CONFLICT OF CREEDS AND PARTIES IN GERMANY.
http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/cmh/cmh207.html#207
___________________________________________________________


As the Ottomans advanced towards Vienna, the city's population organised an ad-hoc resistance formed from local farmers, peasants and civilians determined to repel the inevitable attack. The defenders were supported by a variety of European mercenaries, namely German Landsknecht pikemen and Spanish musketeers sent by Charles V.

The Hofmeister of Austria, Wilhelm von Roggendorf, assumed charge of the defensive garrison, with operational command entrusted to a seventy-year-old German mercenary named Nicholas, Count of Salm, who had distinguished himself at the Battle of Pavia in 1525. Salm arrived in Vienna as head of the mercenary relief force and set about fortifying the three-hundred-year-old walls surrounding St. Stephen's Cathedral, near which he established his headquarters. To ensure the city could withstand a lengthy siege, he blocked the four city gates and reinforced the walls, which in some places were no more than six feet thick, and erected earthen bastions and an inner earthen rampart, levelling buildings where necessary to clear room for defences.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna
__________________________________________________________

cont.

Susanna said...

cont.

After a tremendous struggle the Austrians, under the 70-year-old Count Nicholas von Salm, were finally victorious, although Salm himself was killed during the siege.


I haven't been able to find anything to the effect the mercenary troops under the command of Nicholas, Count of Salm were Protestant. If there is nothing specific in the Peace of Nuremberg about Protestant soldiers actually being sent to aid in the siege of Vienna in 1529, it is likely because the Peace of Nuremberg wasn't concluded until 1532.

But I did find this and it does get into more detail about the Peace of Nuremberg that back your assertions....concerning the second siege of Vienna in 1532.

The accession of Göttingen, Goslar, and Eimbeck to the League, and the success of the Reformation at Hamburg, at Rostock, and in Denmark, where Christian's return to Catholicism brought 110 nearer his restoration to the throne, left the Schmalkaldic League in almost undisputed possession of north Germany ; and it became a veritable Imperium in imperio with a foreign policy of its own. It might now be reckoned one of the anti-Habsburg powers in Europe ; its agents sought alliance with France, England, Denmark, and Venice ; and it began to regard itself as a League not merely for self-defence within the Empire, but for the furtherance of the Protestant cause all over Europe. Nor were its aims exclusively religious ; theology merged into politics, and Protestantism sometimes laboured under the suspicion of being merely anti-imperialism. France and Venice had few points in common with Luther ; and Philip of Hesse's plan to utilise a Turkish invasion for the restoration of Ulrich of Württemberg outraged patriotic sentiment. On the Catholic side Bavarian objects were no less selfish; and the Wittelsbachs endeavoured to undermine Ferdinand's supports against the Turk in Germany, Bohemia, and Hungary. In both professedly religious camps there was political double-dealing ; Hesse was ready to side with either Austria or Bavaria ; while the Wittelsbachs fomented Charles1 hostility to the Lutherans and denounced his concessions as treason to the faith, at the same time that they were hand in glove with Hesse for an attack on the Habsburg power.

These extreme and unpatriotic schemes were defeated by a tacit understanding between Catholic and Protestant moderates ; and Germany presented a fairly united front to its infidel foe. Saxony and cities like Ulm and Nürnberg convinced Charles that the coming of the Turk would be used for no sectional purposes; and the Emperor in return promised the Lutherans at least a temporary peace. He turned a deaf ear to the demands at the Diet of B,atisbon (April, 1532) for the execution of the Augsburg Recess, while Luther denounced the claims of his forward friends to toleration for all future Protestants even in Catholic territories as impossible and unreasonable. At Nürnberg (July 23, 1532) an agreement was reached by which all suits against the Protestants before the Reichskammergerwlit were quashed and they were guaranteed peace until the next Diet or a General Council. The understanding was to be kept secret for fear of offending the Catholics, but it sufficed to open to Charles the armouries of the Protestant cities, and Nürnberg sent double its quota to serve in the Turkish campaign.
...read more...

http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/cmh/cmh207.html#215
_____________________________________________________________________

Susanna said...

Anonymous 7:26 P.M.

Regarding Lepanto:

http://www.returnofkings.com/38595/clash-of-steel-and-will-the-battle-of-lepanto

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

RayB

I want to talk about the 1933 Concordat for a moment.

The Corcordat is often used as a means to argue the Vatican was a co-operative partner with the Nazis or to direct shame towards the Catholics. I believe the Concordat is more complicated than that and should be considered within the context of history. We read and are horrified with the intent of the New Age, but those in Germany lived and died via the same ideology.

I’ve read of priests who, from the comfort outside of Germany, launched public criticism against Hitler’s Reich leaving the Catholic faithful within Germany’s confines to pay dearly. The Catholics then toned things down a bit. I believe the Vatican knew what was about to transpire and its intent, good or bad, was to spare its congregations.

I personally don’t believe the Concordat’s intent was to legitimize the Reich.

Whether or not one is Catholic, I think the 1937 encyclical written by Pope Pius is required reading for all Christians. This was smuggled into Germany and read to all the congregations (I believe on Palm Sunday). It infuriated the Reich. This places things in context and can take a reader to that time period where one gets a glimpse of the horrors the Christians were experiencing.

I would encourage those who haven’t read it to give it a read and, while doing so, remember the horrors of what was happening within Germany.

Paragraph 6
“At a time when your faith, like gold, is being tested in the fire of tribulation and persecution, when your religious freedom is beset on all sides, when the lack of religious teaching and of normal defense is heavily weighing on you, you have every right to words of truth and spiritual comfort from him whose first predecessor heard these words from the Lord: "I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not: and thou being once converted, confirm thy brethren" (Luke xxii. 32).”

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html

http://tinyurl.com/pjrxbg3

Susanna said...

Rich, 9:50 PM

Reichskonkordat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat

Catholic Church and Nazi Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany

Susanna said...

Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany

It wasn't only Catholics who were in Hitler's crosshairs. All authentic Christians were. In the book entitled THE PERSECUTION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE THIRD REICH, the authors state that while they were focusing on the persecution of the Catholic Church, it was nevertheless true that if they were to report all instances of Nazi persecution of Protestants/Evangelicals, a whole other book would need to be written.

Constance Cumbey said...

I just discovered this 2003 published and printed book, heretofore unread in my own personal library. You can bet I'm reading it now: ONWARD MUSLIM SOLDIERS: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West by Robert Spencer. It was published by Regnery Publishing, Inc. (Washington, D.C.)

Constance

Anonymous said...

It's interesting that the Pope doesn't believe that Jews should be "converted". All of the Apostles were Jews and they certainly thought that the Jews of Israel and the diaspora needed their "Jewish Messiah".

Has something changed in 2000 years? Conversion to Catholicism, as it was done in the Inquisition is wrong and even the word conversion is problematic, but Jesus said that he was the door and no one comes to the Father except by Him. We are to be "born again". This is what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

Is the Pope just being PC or does he really think Jews don't need their Messiah? I don't think Jews need to become Catholic or Evangelical Christian, or Lutheran, Episcopalian etc. but they do need to have their sins forgiven, and the only way that can happen is through Jesus because as the author of Hebrews says, the blood of bulls and goats does not take away sin. Even if a Temple was rebuilt, the blood of animals is simply to teach about the need for the shedding of blood for forgiveness of sin, but points to Jesus. Modern Judaism says they can bypass animal sacrifice but Scripture doesn't say that. It says those animal sacrifices were repeated year after year, but the true tabernacle in heaven was cleansed by our high priest Jesus, once and for all. The sacrifices were made as a copy of what Moses saw on Mont Sinai, which was heaven.

We can't convert anyone, but we proclaim or share the good news and then God's spirit works in the heart of a person. Salvation is ultimately of God. In the same article it sys that the Pope is against anti-Semitism, but I think not sharing the good news with Jews is a bit anti-Semitic. Paul says the Gospel goes first to the Jews. . I understand what he means by anti-Semitism but we will have to see if this carries over to his perspective on Jerusalem and the Land. He sent mixed messages on that with regards to a Palestinian State.

Though I don't follow the Pope, I recognize he does his opinion carries weight in many circles.

As Paul says,

"How can they call on him they have not believed? How would they believe in him they have not heard?How will they hear without a preacher?How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, ( quoting Isaiah 52:7) How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things."

Paul was a good shepherd because he preferred to be "cut of" for the sake of his brethren Israel, according to the flesh.

Catholics are not the only ones who espouse not sharing the gospel with Jews. I've heard Protestants say this, but I think we have to agree with Scripture, not a denomination or a man.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Thanks Susanna,

The encyclical addresses the Concordat's intent and the Reich's breaches. I've read analysis on the Concordat awhile ago and think it is used unfairly against the Catholics. That being said I think that today's Catholic Church has followed the same path as the apostate evangelicals and integrated itself into the New Age.

The encyclical is very interesting. The church then was combating exactly what we are resisting today only they were much more in the thick of things.

Anonymous said...

Thanks 11:06 PM.

Constance Cumbey said...

I will be doing the radio program tomorrow morning, 10 am to 12 noon Eastern time, 7 am to 9 a.m. Pacific time.

Please join us at TMERadio.com and/or TheMicroEffect.com. Call in number is 208-935-0094. The materials I've been shared here are so interesting, I'll be quoting some of you in the morning!

Constance

Susanna said...

Rich, 11:07P.M.

Re: That being said I think that today's Catholic Church has followed the same path as the apostate evangelicals and integrated itself into the New Age.

There is no doubt that certain elements in the Roman Catholic Church have apostatized and integrated themselves into the New Age.

While the original Protestants of the 16th century were "heretics" in the strictest sense of the term (i.e. having been baptized into the Roman Catholic faith prior to their apostasy), at least they were somewhat honest and didn't add hypocrisy to their heresy - unlike similar modern day "protestants" like Hans Kung, Matthew Fox, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Rama Coomaraswamy et al - who insist on calling themselves "Catholic" while embracing un-Catholic teachings!

Dan Bryan said...

Anonymous said...11:06 PM

It's interesting that the Pope doesn't believe that Jews should be "converted". All of the Apostles were Jews and they certainly thought that the Jews of Israel and the diaspora needed their "Jewish Messiah".

Ano 11:06, I think the whole earth groans.
The evangelical church because they see the great commission as an impossible task before Jesus returns.
The Pentecostals that believe in a pretrib rapture, because he should have come a while ago.
The Catholics who believe they are 'The Church' in the earth, but cannot help but lose their faithful to the Charismatic protestant movements.
The Charismatic because they have become infatuated with self and lost their way.
The Dominionist who now realize that they can't even take dominion over the neighbors cat that craps in the wife's flower garden.
The 'Sow your Seed' Prosperity-ites see their own wealth and world economy precipitously decline.
The mainstream church because they seek an apostasy of some past mysticism.
A post-everything church that makes it up as they go along, to get along.

The whole church has not overcome the gates of hell but seemingly has been swallowed by the same?

Regarding the Jews, God's chosen people? What do you make of Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48?
Could this be talking of a reconstituted Jewish state?
What of all the mentions of sacrifices and the like? If symbolic, none has yet to explain them? Who is the prince depicted in this section? None can define who he is, and it cannot be Jesus.

I think the Jews eyes will be opened as the gentiles go into perdition.
Interesting and fearful, yet wonderful days in which we live.





Susanna said...

P.S. Rich

Re:The encyclical is very interesting. The church then was combating exactly what we are resisting today only they were much more in the thick of things.

Give it time. Sooner or later the Church will once again be "in the thick of things."

Anonymous said...

Susanna at 9.38pm,

Yes indeed: no protestants were at Vienna in 1529 but many of them were willing to accept Catholic command vs the Ottomans when the Sultan tried again in 1532. That's what I've been saying and it is good to agree.

Marko said...

Russia still plays an important role in what is going on in the Middle East, and their name doesn't necessarily go into the "good guys" column, unlike what many in the WEst might like to think.

Latest commentary from Mr. Nyquist, on his website jrnyquist.com:

A Brief Blog Note for 7 December 2015

A few words about Russia's latest moves in Syria, and the Muslim invasion of Europe. I have multiple sources that allege ISIS is backed by the Russian special services and there is the intriguing suggestion of a Russian friend that the Turkish communists may also be involved in ISIS. More to follow, if there is more. I must also report that Gaidar Jamal, the crazy Azeri Islamist in Moscow, supposedly admitted on his website that the FSB was recruiting for ISIS in Russia. There are other Russian sources on this, and it's something that isn't getting any attention from the mainstream media. Perhaps this can be developed further in the coming days.

On the Syrian Front, I remain skeptical about Russian bombing of ISIS positions. There is nothing impossible about Russia bombing a clandestine group they created (or hijacked) themselves as part of a special operation. Yet I still recall that when the United States first proposed bombing ISIS positions in Syria, both the Syrian and Russian governments objected in principle. It would be a violation of international law, they said. This Syrian and Russian response was very strange because ISIS was supposedly a threat to the Assad regime; so why would they be upset if we bombed ISIS and helped them out? This got my attention at the time, and I have been taking careful notes ever since. Then there was the Lithuanian researcher who found links between the ISIS leadership and KGB-created Muslim structures in the old Soviet Union.

For those who understand how Moscow plays the game, the proper term for all this is "scissors strategy." It is a strategy in which both blades of the scissors are controlled by the same hand. This is nothing new to the Russians. They have played this kind of game before. It is an old trick, from a very old bag of tricks.

Now, with regard to the Muslim invasion of Europe which is presently underway, one must consider: When the Russians are able to capture organizations and religions, and when they have taken over charities and foundations in Western countries, when they have (as Diana West has shown in her book, American Betrayal) manipulated U.S. policy and strategy during the Second World War, what would be so strange about the infiltration of Mosques and Muslim schools? If Liberation theology is a problem for Christians, what is radical Islam except a Liberation theology for Islam? Of course, the original Islamic push for global conquest gives us the true and original face of the "religion of peace," so the matter of Islam's role cannot be reduced to a case of mere Russian manipulation. Russia was not behind Islam twelve centuries ago, and Moscow's present use of Islam as a weapon against the West doesn't mean Islam is, after all, a peaceful religion. It is merely that Russian agents, having infiltrated Islam, can make trouble for the West that might otherwise be directed at themselves.

According to Cliff Kincaid of American Survival, the current Ayatollah in Iran was educated in the Soviet Union. How can we reconcile the atheism of Moscow then and now with the supposedly Moscow-Tehran alliance? Is not the Iranian regime a client state of Moscow, and a client of Beijing as well? How, then, can Moscow be fighting Islamic radicals in Syria while allied with Islam in Tehran? Through all of this we discover how complicated the game actually is.


A complicated game, indeed.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Anon 10:42 PM

This looks like an extension of AoC interlinking initiatives.

Desmond Tutu's comment reflects the AoC's position re Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. They said that they had conducted an exercise to determine the truth and only extremists will reject that truth. Their truth being that the Temple Mount belongs to the international community and to all religions.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

"FSB was recruiting for ISIS in Russia" ever hear of sting operation? besides which there might be muslim infiltration or conversion in the FSB.

RayB said...

Rich,
The purpose of the Concordat was clearly an agreement entered into with the Reich government with the Vatican that sought peaceful, co-existence between the two entities (while others were being murdered). While it took nearly 5 years of negotiations with Mussolini's Fascist government, it only took several weeks to negotiate the terms of the Concordat with the Nazis. Question: where in church history, or in the Scriptures, do you find God’s people negotiating “treaties” with evil entities, such as Mussolini’s Fascists and Hitler’s Nazis? Where?

True Christians stand against evil, while mere professors seek political accommodations with evil. The early Christians were tortured and killed by the Romans for refusing to call Caesar “lord.” True Christians were again tortured and murdered for 620 years in Europe’s Inquisition for refusing to bow their knee to Papal Rome, etc.

Another infamous era of Catholic history, seldom referred to, but very much real is the holocaust perpetrated upon the Jews , Serbs and other minorities at the hands of the Nazi/Catholic puppet Ustashe Fascist state. Ante Pavelic, a Roman Catholic, was the head of the Ustashe which murdered over 30,000 Jews. The Ustache also endorsed a policy of “forced conversion to Catholicism” upon non-Catholics, including thousands of the Eastern Orthodox faith. The victims were given a choice: either covert or die. Literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS were murdered because they refused to convert.

Rome is truly “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.” Revelation 17:6

Literally entire books have been written on this subject. Here is just one article that appeared in the Jerusalem Post on this subject:

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Opinion/Time-to-confront-Croatias-hidden-Holocaust-314896

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Rich.
That is what I was seeing, too. Definitely UNAOC involvement but in the back seat.
This seems like an idea that could morph, and possibly play, into the set up for the Abomination of Desolation of Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, to me. Internationalizing Jerusalem (the burdensome stone to the nations) by force. Temple Mount hijacked for the purpose of signaling "peace" among the "big 3" religions because "fundamentalism" is the biggest reason for the world's insecurity? "When they say peace and security (safety)"...
Don't know, just thinking it out.
One world governing has it's fingers in every pie. Going for the most prized, Temple Mount being the apex?

Susanna said...

Anonymous 5:05 AM,

RE:That's what I've been saying and it is good to agree.

Indeed, it is.

Marko said...

"FSB was recruiting for ISIS in Russia" ever hear of sting operation? besides which there might be muslim infiltration or conversion in the FSB.

No doubt a possibility. That doesn't mean that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, however.

Dan Bryan said...

Marko, Rich,
Regarding the clamor for the crowned jewel Jerusalem, there is a prophetic utterance in the past which read:

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

The Catholic church (much less any other group) has read this verse and can't seem to grasp that seat to bring it to fruition.

As far as that hook that drags Russia to the Middle East, it has already been set, and the line has been pulled.
There is vast gas reserves in Israel and off the cost of Lebanon and Syria in the Mediterranean. If exploited correctly it will prove the undoing of Russia's lock on the EU for gas.

Susanna said...

Marko,

Re:According to Cliff Kincaid of American Survival, the current Ayatollah in Iran was educated in the Soviet Union. How can we reconcile the atheism of Moscow then and now with the supposedly Moscow-Tehran alliance? Is not the Iranian regime a client state of Moscow, and a client of Beijing as well? How, then, can Moscow be fighting Islamic radicals in Syria while allied with Islam in Tehran?

Perhaps it might be helpful to zero in on "Traditionalist" Aleksander Dugin and certain elements within the Moscow Patriarchate of the Russian Orthodox Church whose "Moscow the Third Rome" myth was the occasion of a scathing rebuke by Greek Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew II a few years ago.

The Traditionalist School embraces the idea of the "transcendent unity of all religions." For the Traditionalist, there is ultimately no difference between Christianity and Islam (Sufism)

For the Traditionalists, the various traditional exoteric religions are merely the "clothing" that veils the esoteric/transcendent "truth" (gnosis) that unites them all.

Up to this point Sufism has been one of the more prominent faces of Traditionalism. Dugin wants to make Russian Orthodoxy the predominant Christian face of Traditionalism and forge a Russo-Arab alliance.


The Eurasia Party, later Eurasia Movement, was officially recognized by the Ministry of Justice on 31 May 2001. The Eurasia Party claims support by some military circles and by leaders of the Orthodox Christian faith in Russia, and the party hopes to play a key role in attempts to resolve the Chechen problem, with the objective of setting the stage for Dugin's dream of a Russian strategic alliance with European and Middle Eastern states, primarily Iran. Dugin's ideas, particularly those on "a Turkic-Slavic alliance in the Eurasian sphere" have recently become popular among certain nationalistic circles in Turkey, most notably among alleged members of the Ergenekon network, which is the subject of a high-profile trial (on charges of conspiracy). Dugin's Eurasianist ideology has also been linked to his adherence to the doctrines of the Traditionalist School. (Dugin's Traditionalist beliefs are the subject of a book length study by J. Heiser, The American Empire Should Be Destroyed—Aleksandr Dugin and the Perils of Immanentized Eschatology.) Dugin also advocates for a Russo-Arab alliance.[27]

“ In principle, Eurasia and our space, the heartland Russia, remain the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution. ... The new Eurasian empire will be constructed on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us. This common civilizational impulse will be the basis of a political and strategic union.

The reborn Russia, according to Dugin's concept, is said by Charles Clover of Financial Times to be a slightly remade version of the Soviet Union with echoes of Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell, where Eurasia was one of three continent-sized super states including Eastasia and Oceania as the other two and was participating in endless war between them
....read more...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

cont.

Susanna said...

cont.

As for how the atheism of Moscow can be reconciled with this scheme, there is something in the Traditionalist School called "political Traditionalism" that might fit the wickets. The following seems to be an example of it.

TRANSITIONING FROM MODERNITY: A REVIEW OF ALEXANDER DUGIN’S "THE FOURTH POLITICAL THEORY" (PART 2)

http://www.4pt.su/en/content/transitioning-modernity-review-alexander-dugins-fourth-political-theory-part-2
_________________________________________________________________________

In any case, atheists have no problem using religion for the sake of expediency to make people behave themselves "even when nobody is looking."

One more thing. Up until the rise of the Third Reich, Iran was formerly known as Persia.

When we are talking about Iran, moreover, we are not talking about people who are of semitic ethnicity. We are talking about people of Indo-European ethnicity ("Aryan"). This is why Reza Shah Pahlavi, who was an admirer of Hitler and his Reich, changed Persia's name to "Iran" which means "land of the Aryans."

In 1935, Reza Shah requested the international community to refer to the country by its native name, Iran. As the New York Times explained at the time, "At the suggestion of the Persian Legation in Berlin, the Tehran government, on the Persian New Year, Nowruz, March 21, 1935, substituted Iran for Persia as the official name of the country."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran
_________________________________________________________________

RayB said...

Here is the official document released in 1947 by the Yugoslavian Government regarding the complicity of Catholic Archbishop Stepinac in the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the Catholic puppet Ustashi Croatian state. Note: Archbishop Stepinac was not alone. As you will read in this document, along with Stepinac, many others of the Catholic hierarchy and clergy were involved in the brutalities that resulted in the murders of literally hundreds of thousands of innocent people:

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/123.html

Note: so as not to cause any undo confusion, the spelling appears in slight variations, but all refer to the same: Ustasha, Ustashe and Ustashi.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Dan Bryan if the hook dragging Russia is about them being Gog and Magog, they aren't. this identification depends on an error of Josephus, which is at odds with
other historians of the time and the Assyrian records. Its in turkey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cq340CtbW4 (not shoebat.)

"Daniel I. Block, a professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois in The Book of Ezekiel writes,

"The popular identification of Tubal with Tubolsk in Russia (H. Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth 1970, p.53) is ludicrous . . . The popular identification of Meshech with Moscow (of Lindsey, The Late Great Planet Earth p.53) is absurd."

The erroneous belief that Russia is Magog can be traced back to a small group of 18th and 19th century theologians who wrote long before the primary evidence from the ancient Assyrian records was discovered, translated and made available to the public. Instead, they based their assertions on secondary sources, historical works written over 500 years after the time of Ezekiel, and to make matters worse some of these sources had come to be purposefully altered. These altered references include statements attributed to the first century AD Jewish historian Josephus, and first century AD Roman historian Pliny.

In his book The Antiquity of the Jews Josephus says that the Greeks called the "Magogites" the "Scythians" despite the fact that the Greeks did not call the Magogites the Scythians. In this same passage there are other errors in the identification of other ancient nations of Asia Minor. This passage shows that the author did not understand that Ashkenaz is the Hebrew word for the Scythians. (Interestingly, the Assyrian word for the Scythians, Ishkuza or Ashguza is similar to the Hebrew word for the Scythians – Ashkenaz.) This passage also comes into conflict with what the ancient Greek historian Herodotus who after living with each group wrote about the Scythians and the Lydians in his book The History. Since Josephus used Herodotus' book as a reference, one can only speculate how and why these obviously wrong statements are in Josephus' book. Were these inaccurate statements the products of Josephus' imagination, or were they the result of alterations to the few copies of Josephus' work that existed in medieval times? (Jews did not preserve the writings of Josephus because they considered him to be a traitor.) Beginning in the 11th century these surviving manuscripts were copied by Catholic monks, and obviously altered in some places to suit prevailing beliefs. Ecclesiastical acceptance of the erroneous connection between Magog and the Scythians traces back to Saint Jerome of the late fourth century AD. Unfortunately, the oft quoted statement that has Josephus connecting Magog with the Scythians is an act of document forgery."

http://blogs.christianpost.com/guest-views/debunking-the-russia-war-of-gog-and-magog-myth-8754/

now I should not have to tell grown men and women the following, but these links are for their own merit as articles, and do not imply or involve approval or even knowledge of the agendas or contents of the rest of the video maker or page site.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Perhaps Jerome did this because he could not conceive of Byzantium ever not being Byzantium. Jerome also mistranslated, and it had to be on purpose, Genesisw 3:15 as saying that the woman crushes the serpent's head, when in fact Masoretic, Septuagint, and I think the Samaritan versions, all say that the woman's SEED will crush the serpent's head. Jerome was an early extremist about Mary, so that would be a motive, like Byzantium assumptions would be about Josephus. that Gog and Magog and Mesech and Tubal could not refer to Anatolian places, so had to be father north, the general location of modern Russia and Scythians.

Most attacks on Israel would come from the north access point, regardless of origin point anyway, if not from Egypt, which complicates everything.

Anonymous said...

And so, in her 2:19 PM post, she is swooping in to lecture (to save the "stupid" again)
"now I should not have to tell grown men and women the following"


Take note, Christine, this is the type of beat down that Rich of Medford (at 2:12 PM) is referring to. You talk down to your fellow bloggers in that self-important attitude.

Stop. It.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

"Whenever I enter the comments section of any blog and see hundreds of posting from the same individual I press the back button." (and who might that be?)

"I think the comments section here gets so hostile and combative that I avoid it"

"past few years I’ve probably glanced in the comments section maybe 5 or 6 times....When I have read through the posts I leave feeling as though I just experienced a beat down"

This is from Rich Peterson's post above at 2:12 PM.

Agreed.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Susanna said...

RayB

RE:Here is the official document.....

It is a good thing that the so-called "World History Archive" has a caveat:

Hartford Web Publishing is not the author of the documents in World History Archives and does not presume to validate their accuracy or authenticity nor to release their copyright.

So much for "official".........

The fact of the matter is that Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac was beatified in 1998 by Pope John Paul II and is now known to Catholics as Blessed Aloysius Stepinac.

In Croatia, the Vatican's apostolic visitor Giuseppe Marcone, together with Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac of Zagreb pressured the Pavelić regime to cease its facilitation of race murders. In the Spring of 1942, following a meeting with Pius XII in Rome, Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac of Zagreb declared publicly that it was "forbidden to exterminate Gypsies and Jews because they are said to belong to an inferior race". In July and October 1943, Stepinac denounced race murders in the most explicit terms, and had his denunciation read from pulpits across Croatia.

When Schutzstaffel chief Heinrich Himmler visited Zagreb in 1943, indicating the impending roundup of remaining Jews, Stepinac wrote Pavelic that if this occurred, he would protest for "the Catholic Church is not afraid of any secular power, whatever it may be, when it has to protect basic human values". When deportatation began, Stepinac and Marcone protested to Andrija Artukovic. According to Phayer, the Vatican ordered Stepinac to save as many Jews as possible during the upcoming roundup. Though Stepinac personally saved many potential victims, his protests had little effect on Pavelić......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Catholics_during_the_Holocaust#Croatia
_________________________________________________________________________

Cardinal Alojzije Stepinac and saving the Jews in Croatia during the WW2

There is no doubt that one day the Croatian Archbishop (later the Cardinal) Alojzije Stepinac (1898-1960) will be included into this list.( Righteous Among the Nations ) An official request to the Israeli Yad Vashem for the posthumous inclusion of dr Alojzije Stepinac to the list of Righteous has been sent by dr Amiel Shomrony and dr Igor Primorac, now both citizens of Israel. The request has been sent twice, for the first time in 1970, and then in 1994, and both times refused. Bear in mind that only saved Jews and their descendants have the right to nominate candidates to Yad Vashem. Official Jewish organization in Croatia did not send such a request yet.......

http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html
__________________________________________________________

The Communists were no doubt as eager to portray Stepinac as a Ustashi puppet as they were when they began to perpetrate what came to be known as the "Hitler's Pope Myth." But both falsehoods are being thoroughly discredited.....and by the very people who suffered the most severe persecution......the Jewish people!!!

Only two days after the arrest of Stepinac in 1946 a protest conference was organized by Louis Breier in New York (Bronx), at that time the president of the Jewish community in the USA. He declared:

"This great man was tried as a collaborator of Nazism. We protest against this slander. He has always been a sincere friend of Jews, and was not hiding this even in times of cruel persecutions under the regime of Hitler and his followers. Alongside with Pope Pius XII, Archbishop Stepinac was the greatest protector of persecuted Jews in Europe."


http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html
___________________________________________________________

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Rich, how about getting specific. no one posts hundreds to the same blog except maybe over several months. I think you are conflating Susanna and a couple of others' with mine because of similarity of paragraphs and having to split the posts and continue, GLANCED at they look the same. Also anything addressed to me has the name Christine near the top, you may confuse some of them with mine. And how about discussing THE INFORMATION PRESENTED INSTEAD OF HOW YOU DON'T LIKE TO HAVE TO READ SO MUCH.

there are certainly not hundreds by me or anyone on a single blog post's message section for that post. And I think this entire argument is started in order to jam the blog. As for playing the victim about being baited IT WAS CONSTANCE WHO REFERRED TO YOU AS "BAITING" ME.

now to make up for all this I am going quiet again for a while.



4:44 PM
Delete

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Christine,

I will be specific. I have entered this blog multiple times only to find you dominate the blog. I press the back key because, frankly, I ignore nearly everything you post. It is not because I don't like to read--I don't like to read your posts.

Regarding Constance words, has she ever said Rich Peterson is baiting you? I find that unlikely since I only recently re-entered this blog's comment sections. I use my ID when I do and will address you directly as I am doing now.

Regardless, I find you most unpleasant and really will continue to ignore you.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

By the way Christine, I have only posted and directed a comment to you once. That post was to give you a thank you for what you said.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Christine,

Your last post illustrates why I find your discussions annoying and avoid reading most of your posts. Since I'm am a software developer by trade, I'll break it down how I logically read your last post.

if: all you understand...
then: you may not see the issues...

If: you think that libertarian economics is biblical....
then: you don't know history, or the Bible

You always do this to people. You inject suppositions upon them and then proceed to attack them for what you just said.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Rich, with all due respect, "IF" is not injecting suppositions. "since you do" would be injecting a supposition.

precisely all these issues play a role in a lot of the discussions. how well does your software work? how much of the code that works did you write?

IF...then plus IF .... then
answer no to all but here's what....
back answer flow chart your answer split section a relies on flawed premise throw it out section b if you mean this then this prime if you mean that then that prime.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

and my suppositions are usually the result of observing the content of the statements made to me. that's not supposition. that's calling a spade a spade after enough evidence piles up, consisting of a. specific statements and/or b. the kind of fire the send at me for which remarks of mine.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Your last posts further illustrate the many issues I have with you. You brought forward if statements related to things I've never mentioned yet you chose to confront me with them. So why bring them up? It was your way of attributing them to me.

And you always end your posts calling people stupid or implying it.

I've read Constance reprimand you for rambling. Your 8:13 post was rambling.

I believe one of the other posters here nailed it on the head--that you will argue with wallpaper.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Constance,

You have a pitiful situation going on with this blog's comment sections. Maybe one day when you have better control over it I will return.

Rich

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dan Bryan said...

Christine, you said:
Dan Bryan if the hook dragging Russia is about them being Gog and Magog.......

No! I specifically said the Hook is the new-found energy reserves in the Middle East and Russia has taken the bait.

'The Hook' that is dragging Russia to the table is as I expressed. They tried to negotiate with Israel for the rights to these reserves and Israel refused them. Russia intends to take them.

If Russia is not a player, how is 'the elephant in the room' to be dismissed?
If the massive gas and oil reserves found by Israel not a good example of the hook, then what is the hook? and who is it for?

There is an argument that it is not just the 'Prince of Mescheh and Tubal', but that the only appropriate translation of the phrase in Ezekiel 38:2,3 and 39:1 is 'prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal' where Rosh being that of the -STAN nations of central Asia which are still in the sphere of influence with Moscow. So Rosh as depicted in the Hebrew may very well represent Rosh.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/gtj/06-1_067.pdf

The biggest obstacle to the Obama(Nobel peace be upon him)'s community organization is Russia.
Middle East Gas reserves is the biggest threat to Russia's EU market.
Russia is the only nuclear power aligned with Syria and Persia sitting on the door step of Israel.
Russia is sending her fleet to Syria.
Russia is arming Syria with state of the art antiaircraft missiles, for what purpose?
Russia is sending troops to Syria.
The NATO stepchild Turkey is disenchanted with the West and may soon align with Russia (wait and see?)

The Arab world will rally its crescent against Israel. Russia and China are not incidental in their support to stand against the Western/NATO block.

There is a strong biblical case for Russia's involvement beside what we presently see being played out in Syria.
http://www.aletheiacollege.net/ld/d1.htm

I do not understand your last paragraph.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...

Dan Bryan,

"Christine, you said:
Dan Bryan if the hook dragging Russia is about them being Gog and Magog.......

No! I specifically said the Hook is the new-found energy reserves in the Middle East and Russia has taken the bait."

I didn't say that hook was being Gog Magog, your whole phrasing sounds like Ezekiel 38:4"...and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thing army....."

I didn't say the hook itself was anything other than oil like you said, rather that the statement that a hook was set, given the object of the hook being Russia, sounded like the Gog Magog thing. you are speaking to people who are interpreting current events in a Bible prophecy context, and you used a Bible prophecy term,

setting a hook.

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Constance Cumbey said...

CHristine, I gave you limits to your posting and you did not respect them. One of my most respected participants has just told me that he will not be coming back here because of some of your comments. It's a shame I can't take a day to attend a Christmas party with old friends without a disaster here in my absence. I don't know what he was so upset about, but he came to my email box to tell me he had major problems with my comments section -- "Christine" and he, as a result, would not be coming back.

Constance

Dan Bryan said...

Christine,

If Russia destroys Turkey, then what and where is the hook and who is it for in your world view?
I do not believe Turkey or Russia as one being mutually exclusive to the other.
We will see how it plays out.

Dan

Marko said...

So Constance, are you going to do what you really need to do?

Please, do the Donald Trump thing and ban her temporarily until we can get it all figured out....

:^)

Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Constance Cumbey said...

Christine,

Rich is a valuable friend and poster. He is also a brilliant computer programmer whose time is at a premium. The insults to him are out of order. He has an extremely heavy work load. From time to time we share valuable information via telephone and/or Skype.

Constance

Constance Cumbey said...

Christine tells me she is taking a week off to make up for the excessive posting. In the meantime, I'm deleting several of her posts that are either rambling or insulting to others here. I'm also deleting her posts using crude language.

Constance

paul said...

Ahh, fresh air. Did somebody open a window?

Marko said...

Rich,

I don't know if this will make a difference or not, but I've really appreciated and have learned much from your postings lately.

We've got another week without Christine aka Justina, let's make the most of it eh?

BTW, I work in IT as well. I've done some programming, but mostly I do just general sys admin things.

Rich Peterson - Medford said...

Marko,

I first talked with Constance back in 1998. Our history has been one of sharing information over the years. When I discovered the Alliance of Civilizations she insisted I call Herb Peters. That was when I had plenty of time to read through the UN and EU web sites.

Unfortunately I haven't had time spend on research as I had in the past. I work for a company in the housing industry. When the economy semi-collapsed, the IT staff reduced from 17 to 5 developers. Being one of the remaining staff, I don't have the time to devote to research as before. Nevertheless, what I can say about the UN's new materials I read is that the more things change the more they stay the same.

Take the 2030 Sustainable Development Agenda for example. It was a consolidation of all the previous initiatives only set with a renewed 15 year plan.

https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/conferences

The language is the same from UNESCO's very inception, only they try to hide their true agenda from the public now. They were much more open about their intentions years back so I am fortunate to have file cabinets and computers filled with archived documents.

One of the more telling documents was written by UNESCO's first director, Julian Huxley, in 1946. Read though UNESCO, Its Purpose and Its Philosophy. It contains the conscious evolution agenda (even though Huxley doesn't call it that) but it is clear they intent to control human evolution. It talks about their agenda to control every individuals career and education. Huxley talks about restricting individuals from entering politics. I believe Huxley even suggests genocide, per Huxley:

“At the moment, it is probable that the indirect effect of civilization is dysgenic instead of eugenic; and in any case it seems likely that the dead weight of genetic stupidity, physical weakness, mental instability, and disease-proneness, which already exist in the human species, will prove too great a burden for real progress to be achieved. Thus even though it is quite true that any radical eugenic policy will be for many years politically and psychologically impossible, it will be important for Unesco to see that the eugenic problem is examined with the greatest care, and that the public mind is informed of the issues at stake so that much that now is unthinkable may at least become thinkable.”

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0006/000681/068197eo.pdf

I will continue to glance through posts from the individuals whose input I value: you, RayB, Paul, Susanna, and others. I'll post supplementary info when it serves to stimulate the discussion. I will continue to avoid posts intent on creating discord.

RayB said...

Susanna said @ 4:17 PM to RayB...

“RE:Here is the official document.....

It is a good thing that the so-called "World History Archive" has a caveat:

Hartford Web Publishing is not the author of the documents in World History Archives and does not presume to validate their accuracy or authenticity nor to release their copyright.

So much for "official".........”

Susanna,

Of course the site has a caveat disclaimer. As a site that makes available literally hundreds of historical documents, not having a disclaimer would be irresponsible on their part. By you citing the DISCLAIMER as “proof” that the document is not “official” is quite lame to say the least.

But I will hand it to you Susanna, your tactic is a very nice illustration of a deflection move off of the real issue. You seem to have a well-schooled habit of doing this over and over again. What you purposely chose to ignore is the fact that what I provided was IN FACT the Official Document of the Yugoslavian Government as released through their embassy in Washington, DC in 1947 (link below to the official Government document):

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/123.html

You also write:

“The fact of the matter is that Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac was beatified in 1998 by Pope John Paul II and is now known to Catholics as Blessed Aloysius Stepinac.”

What you failed to include some other very important information about this “saint” … the “Blessed Stepinac.” After World War II, after the Nazis and their Catholic/Ustashe Fascist Government was defeated, the “Blessed Stepinac” was tried by the Yugoslavian Government and found guilty on the charge of “high treason” (for collaboration with the fascist Ustashe regime), as well as complicity in the forced conversions of Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism (under the threat of “convert or die”). He was sentenced to 16 years in prison for his crimes. So much for the “Blessed Saint.”

By the way, you also wrongly state that the Jews suffered “the most” at the hands of the Ustashe government. That is patently untrue. Even the Jerusalem Post states that “… 30,000 Jews were murdered by the Ustashe, while several hundred thousand Serbs suffered the same fate.” Estimates today run as high as ONE MILLION … murdered by fanatical Catholics that wanted to create a “Catholic Fascist State.”

The history of what really happened is out there in abundance for all to see. The problem is that one has to have, by the grace of God, the spiritual “eyes” to see the truth.

RayB said...

Video of "pope" Francis declaring that a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ is DANGEROUS ..."

Don't believe it? Watch this 3 minute video for proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmjAjrlrE10

Anonymous said...

"Pope Francis says (assuming the translation of the Spanish in that video is accurate): "There are those who believe you can have a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside of the communion and mediation of the church. These temptations are dangerous and harmful..." Nonsense: the church is the collective of those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ! Sadly these words suggest that Pope Francis is not one such.

Anonymous said...

Constance,

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you for moderating.

Marko said...

Anon. 1:34...

"Sadly, these words suggest that Pope Francis is not one such."

I'm not a Catholic, but you can't blame the Pope for representing truthfully what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught. He may be wrong, but that doesn't mean he's lost. He just thinks it's a more exclusive club than what you or I think.

If I believe that the only people who can truly be called Jeep owners are the ones that own Wranglers, Willys, or CJs, and I own a Wrangler, and tell Jeep liberty owners that theirs isn't a "proper Jeep", that doesn't make me NOT a Jeep owner.

The analogy isn't perfect, by any means, but if the Pope professes Christ as the means for his OWN salvation, then how does what he thinks about other people's salvation affect that?

Susanna said...

Ray B,


Re:As a site that makes available literally hundreds of historical documents, not having a disclaimer would be irresponsible on their part.

As a site that is CLAIMING to make available "HUNDREDS OF HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS," the DISCLAIMER is an oxymoron.

Re: What you purposely chose to ignore is the fact that what I provided was IN FACT the Official Document of the Yugoslavian Government as released through their embassy in Washington, DC in 1947 (link below to the official Government document):

Oh, I didn't ignore it.

Assuming the document is authentic, what you failed to include is the fact that in 1947, the "government" of Yugoslavia had become a communist dictatorship headed by Marshall Tito who was a little wannabe "Stalin." The Vatican saw Cardinal Stepinac's "trial" for the communist show trial it was and excommunicated Tito and the mostly Catholic Yugoslav government for sentencing Stepinac to 16 years in prison on false charges of assisting Ustaše terror and of supporting forced conversions of Serbs to Catholicism. These "conversions," by the way, were not only NOT forced, but were more often than not bogus and part of a strategy to protect Jews and Serbs from Nazi persecution.

In a confidential rescript sent to Croatian clergy in 1941, Archbishop Stepinac wrote: "The role and task of Christians is on the first place to save people. When this time of madness and wildness is over, only those will remain in our Church who converted out of their own conviction, while others, when the danger is over, will return to their faith." Archbishop Stepinac also gave another instruction to his clergy to issue the certificate of baptism to endangered Jews and Serbs whenever they asked for. This was done with all procedures maximally simplified, often with false names. To our knowledge, these efforts are unique in the occupied part of Europe.

http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html
__________________________________________________________________

Stepinac's so-called "collusion" with the Ustase has been compared by Jewish historians with the feigned "collusion" with the Nazis of Oskar Schindler.

For the record, my father was in Italy at the very beginning of Tito's reign. My dad was a WWII Veteran in the famous 88th Infantry Division, which on account of the blue shoulder patches they wore, were dubbed the "Blue Devils" by Nazi propagandist "Axis Sally" - which the 88th immediately adopted as their nickname just to get in "Axis Sally's" face.

The other reason for the nickname was because of the way in which the 88th Infantry stomped all over the Nazis in Italy. In fact, during "Operation Diadem," the 88th Infantry chased the Nazis for 30 miles - which made big news back home. The 88th was also directly involved in the capture of Naples and liberation of Rome. An element of the 88th is credited with being first to enter Rome. The 88th even had a song about it which they sang to the tune of Lily Marlene.

Immediately following the War, my father was in Trieste as a member of the "Trieste U.S. Troops" Mission (TRUST) which was part of a peacekeeping mission during the territorial dispute between Italy and Yugoslavia over Trieste! During my father's stint in Trieste, Tito was viewed as second only to Stalin in the Eastern Bloc.



But I digress.....

Susanna said...

cont.

The "show trial" of Cardinaol Stepinac by the communists was overturned after the fall of communism in Yugoslavia. And a "show trial" it was too, because nobody who would have supported Stepinac was even allowed to testify.

Cardinal Stepinac, who was made Archbishop of Zagreb in 1937,was imprisoned in 1946 by the ruling communist regime for alleged collaboration with the fascist Ustasa regime during World War II.

After five years in a Yugoslav jail, he was given the option of seeking refuge in Rome or be confined to house arrest in his home parish of Krasic. He opted for the latter.

In 1953, Pope Pius XII made him a cardinal, although he was never allowed travel to the Holy See to be officially elevated.

He died in 1960 of a blood disorder, which was said to have been caused by the conditions he endured in jail. ( i.e. slow poisoning)

After the fall of communism in Yugoslavia, the original court decision of 1946 was overturned and Pope John Paul II beatified him as a martyr for the faith in 1998.


http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal_stepinac_martyred_50_years_ago_remains_hero_in_croatia/
_____________________________________________________________________

Aloysius Stepinac was the cardinal of Croatia who was imprisoned by the communists, held under accusations of being pro-Nazi, and poisoned. (slowly poisoned while in prison.)

http://www.papalartifacts.com/2015/10/october-3-1998-the-beatification-of-cardinal-aloysius-stepinac-martyr-a-signed-holy-card/
______________________________________________________________________


CARDINAL STEPINAC, POPE PIUS XII, AND THE ROMAN

CATHOLIC CHURCH DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR

Ronald J. Rychlak

University of Mississippi School of Law

http://catholicsocialscientists.org/.../Rychlak%20-%20Special%20Section.pdf

_____________________________________________________________________________

Susanna said...

cont.

......Archbishop Joseph P. Hurley represented Pope Pius XII at Cardinal Stepinac's "show trial."

In 1945, in addition to his role as Bishop of St. Augustine, Hurley made a return to the papal diplomatic service and was appointed by Pius XII as regent ad interim to Yugoslavia. He thus became the first American to be raised to the equivalent rank of a nuncio. Relations between the Vatican and Yugoslavia had been deteriorating following the end of the war; the new communist government had been accused of murdering priests and the Church was charged with "obstructionist" activity. During his five years in Yugoslavia, Hurley negotiated with Marshal Josip Broz Tito and worked closely with U.S. officials. In 1946, he represented Pius XII at the show trial of Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac by Marshal Tito for "crimes against the people."......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Patrick_Hurley

______________________________________________________________________________

Then, there is Jewish historian Dr. Esther Gitman's book "When Courage Prevailed: the Rescue and Survival of Jews in Independent State of Croatia 1941-1945"


She began her research into the Croatian-Jewish history in 1999 with her dissertation Rescue of Jews in the Independent State of Croatia, 1941–1945. In 2002 she received a Fulbright scholarship to travel to Croatia to continue her research. In 2008, Gitman participated in a conference on Aloysius Stepinac, the senior member of the Catholic Church among the Croats in the Second World War.

Gitman has compiled databases on Jews who survived from Sarajevo and Zagreb. In 2011she published a book When Courage Prevailed: The Rescue and Survival of Jews in the Independent State of Croatia 1941–1945 with the subject of rescues and survival of Jews in Independent State of Croatia and also about the role of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac in these matters. In the interview for the Croatian daily Večernji list, Gitman said that for her: Stepinac is holy man who saved many Jews.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther_Gitman

_____________________________________________________________________________

Croatia’s Blessed Aloysius Stepinac, WWII Rescue Of Jews and Dr Esther Gitman’s Fact Finding Captivate Pages Of Prestigious US Catholic Historical Review

http://inavukic.com/2015/09/02/croatias-blessed-aloysius-stepinac-wwii-rescue-of-jews-and-dr-esther-gitmans-fact-finding-captivate-pages-of-prestigious-us-catholic-historical-review/

Anonymous said...

Marko,

He should read the New Testament about relationship with Jesus.

Susanna said...

Rich,

Like Marko and others, I hope you stay as well. I have benefitted from reading what you have to say both here and on your blog and think it would be a shame to lose you as a fellow commenter.

Susanna said...

RayB

P.S.

Re:By the way, you also wrongly state that the Jews suffered “the most” at the hands of the Ustashe government. That is patently untrue.

I was referring to the Holocaust in general and not to the particular persecution of the Jews by the Nazis in Croatia.


Anonymous said...

Ditto, Susanna and Marko.

You made your case very well in your remarks about the issue that was going on here, Rich.
Thanks for telling it like it is for all of us who have received the same treatment.
This blog deserves better than it was getting.

Susanna said...

Marko 1:52 P.M.

Re:The analogy isn't perfect, by any means, but if the Pope professes Christ as the means for his OWN salvation, then how does what he thinks about other people's salvation affect that?

It doesn't. Moreover the Pope did not in any way attempt to define the point at which one is "outside of the communion and mediation of the church."

A priest named Father Leonard Feeney once thought he could and was excommunicated for claiming that Protestants were going to hell in a handbasket JUST for being Protestant.

Only God can know the point at which one is "outside the Church" of Christ.

LOL Needless to say, I am no follower of Feeney!!!

Anonymous said...

Susanna, you wrote: "The Vatican saw Cardinal Stepinac's "trial" for the communist show trial it was and excommunicated Tito and the mostly Catholic Yugoslav government for sentencing Stepinac to 16 years in prison on false charges of assisting Ustaše terror and of supporting forced conversions of Serbs to Catholicism. These "conversions," by the way, were not only NOT forced, but were more often than not bogus and part of a strategy to protect Jews and Serbs from Nazi persecution."

I am deeply skeptical that Catholic baptismal certificates issued to (Orthodox) Serbs in wartime Croatia were a kindness to protect them from fascist persecution (by the Nazi-allied Ustase, by the way, not by the Nazis themselves). Can you provide evidence, please? The Ustase plan was, as stated publicly in July 1941 by the Ustase's Education Minister Mile Budak, to forcibly convert one-third of the Serbs in Croatia, murder one-third, and expel one-third. Many conversions took place at gunpoint. Ustase operational units had their own Catholic chaplain. Archbishop Stepinac is a misunderstood figure who was roundly against Ustase genocide, but he disastrously lost control of the Croatian priests under him. It is true that he might have made the situation worse by excommunicating the Ustase leader Ante Pavelic, but why did he not instantly defrock the ordained Catholics who were publicly on the rampage with guns?

paul said...

Aaaargh,
This morning at church our Pastor used the term "our Moslem brothers and sisters."
I almost fell out of my chair.
Now I don't know where to go, but I feel that I should go; somewhere else.
I know, I know, the aim of the New Age from the beginning has been to ultimately
pit Moslems against Christians and Christians against Jews and Jews against
Moslems, in a final world war. But how can I not be strongly opposed to Islam
when Islam is openly and clearly anti Christian. I mean, they're murdering Christians
literally as fast as they can, wherever they can get away with it, which is in Moslem
countries. To me Islam is the very definition of the spirit of Anti Christ.
So, where should I go ?
Is this the point where a person starts a new house church?
I want to hear the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And no, I don't want to
hear anti Muslim rhetoric, or anti Semite rhetoric, but I want to fellowship with
Christians.
So where should I go ?
I don't believe ANY TV evangelists, and I don't care what might be available on the
world wide web. Sure, I loiter around this website and comment sometimes, but it's
hardly my home church.
The Great Falling Away has most certainly begun. Christianity is being replaced by
attrition.

RayB said...

For those that are interested in finding out the truth regarding the Vatican’s role in the genocide that took place during World War II under the Catholic/Fascist Croatian government, please take the time to read this detailed analysis that appeared in the publication “Serbianna” (November 11, 2011). This detailed article contains an extensive amount of referenced material along with bibliography for further research on this important subject:

http://serbianna.com/analysis/archives/1182

RayB said...

Paul ...

Satan's false ecumenical movement is in full swing and will not stop until the goal of One World Religion is achieved. The only people that will NOT be welcomed in this New Religious Order will be those that truly hold to the truth that is found only in and through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rome is moving very aggressively towards this end, as evidenced by following statement by "pope" Francis:

“Jesus Christ, Jehovah, Allah. These are all names employed to describe an entity that is distinctly the same across the world. For centuries, blood has been needlessly shed because of the desire to segregate our faiths. This, however, should be the very concept which unites us as people, as nations, and as a world bound by faith. Together, we can bring about an unprecedented age of peace, all we need to achieve such a state is respect each others beliefs, for we are all children of God regardless of the name we choose to address him by. We can accomplish miraculous things in the world by merging our faiths, and the time for such a movement is now."

Anonymous said...

Christine, you wrote some way back in this thread (10:09AM):

" "The Vatican is built over Nero's old place. " no it was built over the circus Nero built, not his palace. this was where St. Peter was martyred."

There is no Biblical reference to Peter ever having even been in Romelet alone having been martyred there! In fact, it was Paul who was in Rome and he who was the Apostle who preached principally to the Gentiles.

St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch, not Rome! It is probable his remains have been discovered in Jerusalem and highly dubious, therefore, that they would be in Rome!

Marko said...

Paul,

You are not alone. There are MANY (including myself) who have left their churches for the same kind of stuff you experienced.

Maybe we can all spend some time in prayer to ask the Lord to place us where He wants us to be.

Keep the faith. Keep in the Word. Keep in prayer. Go to sermonindex.net and find some good old sermons from a time when the Gospel mattered.

BTW, I tried the home Bible study / home church thing, and ours didn't last. Not that that was a bad thing - we just all mutually decided to move on to something else.

I don't LIKE not belonging to a fellowship of believers at the local level. But I refuse to go to a "super fun rock band church" (to borrow a phrase from Ms. Barnhardt) if their only mission is to bring in the lost without telling them that's what they are - lost and in need of a savior. All those churches do is make the lost feel good as they ride the train to hell.

Maybe that's the wrong attitude though? Maybe we should stay in those churches and help get them back on track? Aren't we shirking our duty to love the Church as Christ loved it if we just up and leave?

I don't know. But I just have this sense - same as you - that the great falling away is occurring, and that many are being called out of fellowships and relationships so that we will focus on the one relationship that matters - the one we have with Jesus Christ.

I even know of marriages that have fallen apart, and because of it, one of the two that made up that partnership has gotten MUCH closer to the Lord, while the other one turned away. Maybe, MAYBE?... God is causing people to leave relationships of all kinds - even marriages - to bring His people unto Himself? I am really reluctant to even suggest something like that in regards to a marriage, because the response will be "How can you say that the Lord would break apart a marriage?!?" I don't pretend to have an answer to that, except to point to the scripture that says "Unless a person is willing to leave his mother or father or husband or wife to follow me, he is not worthy to follow me." (My paraphrase) But of course, he was using hyperbole, right? Hmmmm.

This is a time of separation. It will be painful, but the pain will be worth it in the end. As the song says, "It will be worth it all, when we see Jesus..."

Anonymous said...

Paul,

I hear you. Glad you are wanting to stay with the one sure thing....as Apostle Paul said---just Christ and Him crucified. The falling away is advancing (very well on it's way) and the Bible tells us (in Hebrews) that everything that can be shaken will be. Everything. Christ is The Divider so we must come out from among them of the world to stand with Him. Jesus told us that to follow Him is to take the narrow way, but we know is the Only Way and how will they who do not know Jesus know there is a difference if we aren't living set apart for the sake of the Gospel? So my hope and prayer is that you will not become discouraged but instead keep prayerfully seeking out those of that like mind and plug in where you can. The Lord will lead you. His is the unshakeable kingdom and not all have bowed the knee to Baal as God told Elijah. He will be faithful in this too.

Susanna said...


Anonymous 5:31P.M.


Re:I am deeply skeptical that Catholic baptismal certificates issued to (Orthodox) Serbs in wartime Croatia were a kindness to protect them from fascist persecution (by the Nazi-allied Ustase, by the way, not by the Nazis themselves). Can you provide evidence, please? The Ustase plan was, as stated publicly in July 1941 by the Ustase's Education Minister Mile Budak to forcibly convert one-third of the Serbs in Croatia, murder one-third, and expel one-third. Many conversions took place at gunpoint.

I thought I did...... at 4:15 where I posted the following:

In a confidential rescript sent to Croatian clergy in 1941, Archbishop Stepinac wrote: "The role and task of Christians is on the first place to save people. When this time of madness and wildness is over, only those will remain in our Church who converted out of their own conviction, while others, when the danger is over, will return to their faith." Archbishop Stepinac also gave another instruction to his clergy to issue the certificate of baptism to endangered Jews and Serbs whenever they asked for. This was done with all procedures maximally simplified, often with false names. To our knowledge, these efforts are unique in the occupied part of Europe.

http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html
____________________________________________________________________

But I will add:

Archbishop Stepinac denounced the atrocities against the Serbs. (Historian Michael)Phayer wrote that in July 1941, Stepinac wrote to Pavelić objecting to the condition of deportation of Jews and Serbs and then, realizing that conversion could save Serbs he instructed clergy to baptise people upon demand without the normal waiting time for instruction.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Usta%C5%A1e



According to a report of the British Naval Intelligence Division from 1944, the Croatian "Roman Catholic clergy, following the example of monsignor Stepinac, the Zagreb Archbishop, energetically protested against ustasha persecutions of Serbs and Jews, as well as against government's attempts for forced conversion to Roman Catholicism" (written by experts from Oxford and Cambridge in 1944, with note `only for official use'). See Stefan, pp. 127-131.


http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html


You might want to read the entire article by Darko Zubrinic posted immediately above.

___________________________________________________________________________________


During the time of the NDH, the Ustashi forced thousands of Orthodox Serbs to convert to Roman Catholicism.[40] The matter became such a significant issue that Archbishop Stepinac felt the need to report on it to Rome in December 1941.[41] The following month, the Holy See expressly repudiated forced conversions in a memorandum sent to Yugoslavia’s representative to the Holy See.[42]


(40) It was thought by the Ustashi leadership that Serbs would be more accepting of the government if they were Roman Catholic.

(41) L’archevêque de Zagreb Stepinac au pape Pie XII, December 3, 1941, Actes et Documents, vol. 8, page 368, no. 216.

(42) Pius quoted this in his Papal Allocution of October 6, 1946.

http://www.studiacroatica.org/revistas/165/16501.htm#_ftn42


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