Wednesday, August 12, 2009

Sri Chinmoy and other Hidden Dangers of the 1960s rainbows

TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT UPDATE: This is August 18th! Tonight, Professor Jayanti Tamm is my radio guest. I have read her book and am greatly looking forward to the interview. Join us at Click "listen live" on the menu choices and if at all possible, please join me in the chatroom. If you have call in questions, the number is 888-747-1968.


UPDATE: Professor Jayanti Tamm will be my radio guest on MY PERSPECTIVE internet radio next Tuesday, August 18, 2009, 8 p.m. Eastern Time, 5 p.m. Pacific Time.


A brilliant and insightful article special to the Washington Post by Professor Jayanti Tamm, the daughter of devotees of UN guru Sri Chinmoy can be read by clicking here. I plan to obtain her book as soon as possible. Please don't beat me on the stampede to Amazon to get it! For the record, Sri Chinmoy was a key guru of Planetary Citizens / Planetary Initiative for the World We Choose organizer Donald Keys. Well, you may now go ahead and order, I just did! I heard very similar accounts to those of Professor Tamm from members of Donald Keys' family. They once contacted me to say their father had abandoned his young and growing family "to go and serve the world." Keys was also once and administrator for Lucis Trust as well as the World Federalists. He was closely allied with highly respected author/editor Norman Cousins. Cousins wrote the foreword for Donald Key's book, EARTH AT OMEGA: PASSAGE TO PLANETIZATION. Excerpting from Professor Tamm's brilliant article, we read:

"Arriving in the United States in 1964, Sri Chinmoy had vast ambitions. He aimed to infiltrate the United Nations, win a Nobel Prize and gain a worldwide following. His disciples were to lead austere, celibate lives, devoting themselves and their financial resources entirely to his mission. In 1970 when my mother became pregnant — a clear breach of the rules — the guru saved face by divining me as his chosen soul.

I was raised in the ashram of this man who declared himself an incarnation of God. Before I could walk, my parents dressed me in a sari and took me on their recruiting trips. Instead of acting in school plays and playing soccer, I distributed leaflets proclaiming the guru's divinity from parade floats that wound through city streets. I spent summers scrubbing the cages of the zoo housed in the basement of the guru's Queens home.

When Chinmoy wanted to attract more media attention, he staged elaborate weightlifting feats, hoisting elephants, helicopters and even Nelson Mandela and Mikhail Gorbachev — a smoke-and-mirrors spectacle I never understood. How could lifting elephants illuminate and ultimately transform the world? When I was a teenager, the guru's strict rules banning all contact and relationships with the "outside" world provoked questions and longings for everything he forbade — college, career and family. When he told me to neglect the mind and forever remain in the heart "like a 7-year-old," I finally realized that he was a narcissistic charlatan, shamelessly exploiting the faithful.

"At 25, older than my parents had been when they renounced the world to serve the guru, I was formally banished, losing all my connections to the community I'd known since birth. Fortunately, I was young enough to forge a life on my own terms.

"For years, I have struggled with the reckless decision of some in my parents' generation to entrust their present and future to those who claimed to be spiritually enlightened. Cultural historians today portray the '60s as a unique time. I hope they are right. That is, I hope that the cast of corrupt opportunists — gurus, prophets and messiahs — who profited from others' naive belief is indeed a unique '60s phenomenon, safely encapsulated in those glossy anniversary books."

Well, so much for "peace, light, and love." I am going to do my level best to track Professor Tamm down and interview her on my internet radio show.

Stay tuned!


Comments: 1 – 200 of 233 Newer› Newest»
I've left word with Jayanti Tamm's New York publicist's voice mail. Will keep you posted.

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I live in Penna. and was able to listen in to some of the Specter Town Hall meeting via CNN.

It was notable that the "real people" ie, the genuine citizen participants voices shook and their demeanor was visibly "nervous" as would almost anyone's would be as they voiced their concerns to the Senator before cameras.

However, it was equally obvious how eloquent and "staged" the pro Obama camp comments were.

It is also notable that such meetings are breaking out in or coming to the edge of brawls on which both sides are guilty.

As Greg quoted "We want your help to organize major union participation to counter the right-wing "Tea-Party Patriots" who will try to disrupt those meetings, as they've been trying to do to meetings for the last month. ..."

What has happened to civil exchange in the public square? It being lost as we face our freedoms being stolen from us.

Matthew 24:12 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
Blogger Baal could actually be a lot more correct than we give him credit for. It appears to me that ISIS is indeed the Goddess of this world.

Here’s just a few ISIS sightings which are connected with global information systems, science and technology, finance and banking, bio-engineering research and medical technology, integrated multi-national defense, human rights, and other so-called “secularized” aspects of our global community.
"Blogger Baal could actually be a lot more correct than we give him credit for. It appears to me that ISIS is indeed the Goddess of this world."

No - anyway you slice it - or redraw it - or recolor it - or redress it - or give it another name - it is still satan - (and his minions) destine for the everlasting fire which God created especially for him and those who follow him.
Hooray! Professor Jayanti Tamm's Random House publicist just called me and said she (Jayanti) is available for the broadcast next Tuesday and excited about doing it!

Stay tuned!

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I'm just curious. What is Obamacare and how does it apply to the New Age Movement? Is Obamacare the health care reform effort that Obama initiated? If so, I can paint a picture of what Obamacare will look like, if he gets all he wants through Congress, although I don't know how to connect it to the New Age Movement.

This is how Obamacare will look like. Exactly what is already is EXCEPT insurance companies won't bar you from coverage because of a preexisting condition. Insurance companies can't just cut you off because your illness or injury has become too costly. If you don't want the public option, you don't have to take it. If you are a small business owner and can't afford to give your employees adequate health insurance, the public option would be there to tap into.

Only one thing is to pay for it all without driving up the deficit. I can see taxes going up somewhere which is the biggest downside to this legislation.

You see, no death panels, no euthanasia, no universal health care. Although, the government will have a bigger reach in terms of making sure insurance companies comply and offer governmental insurance more than what they do already for Medicare and Medicaid.
The manipulators have always counted on opponents being polite, courteous, avoiding confrontation, passive, not raising our voices, not asking questions meant to disrupt. We even got patted on the head for being well-mannered. We were just supposed to grumble in well-mannered ways. Anything else brought forth raised eyebrows and the word OUTRAGEOUS with eight exclamation points behind it.

Pro-lifers were really the first in recent years to picket, shout, and be activists. Even the anti-ERA people did very little. We were just supposed to listen to conservative leaders, religious and secular to fill our heads.

Now the left could make a lot of noise and the game was politicians had to pacify them by going along with their agenda. After all, see the numbers in the street, all spontaneously gathered as if by the call of the sirens.

Now that activists held "tea parties" and others are speaking out against the health care package, the left can't stand it. They want to crack down on the opposition. Name calling, intimidation, physical assaults are in the playbook.

We need more and more people to speak out to DC. A long time ago I said that with the tactics Obama Democrats were using, I was afraid that an equal and opposite reaction could be ignited.

Today I read a story that the militia movement was growing again. We do not need a militia movement because of what it could lead to. We do need some successes to stop its growth.

healthcare supporter-
This is not a regulatory bill as you suggest. Have you at least read a summary of the house bill or the actual bill itself. I have read parts of the bill but not the whole bill I have read several summaries.

Obama says if we want to know what he thinks we should look at who he aligns himself with. The people that Obama is listening to is most of the problem.

Now, the other problem as you stated in your own comments is the money. Where does the money come from? What happens when there are limited funds for it? That is when you have to start "rationing" the health care.
How do they decide who gets what? The 20 year is valued more than a 70 year old.

Why put the "end of life" counseling in the bill? Because now it will be the Doctors initiation the conversation instead of the patient.

Population control is a big goal of the New Age Movement.
Dr. Grady McMurtry will be my radio guest tomorrow night about the Church of the Nazarene University evolution fiasco!

Personally, I want to READ the proposed legislation and all its proposed amendments.


So, you've read through HR3200 and were able to reach your conclusions? Or, is it that you believe what you're told on the left wing news channels run by the elites. I've got this REALLY good deal on this bridge in Brooklyn - ya know, with the economy the way it is and all. Just have your assistant call my assistant. We'll do lunch.

Here is an online pdf copy of the Health care bill - all 1018 pages of it - for you or anyone interested in reading it.
I say we DO need the militia. Our founding fathers insisted on it. Jefferson said the liberty tree needed to be watered every now and then. With blood. The government sure likes watering other countries' trees with the blood of our citizens. They lie us into war to do it.
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I checked The Micro Effect schedule. there is a rebroadcast of Constance's program at Thursday night 10 central. I don't know if it will be the same one as earlier in the day.

there are other times of rebroadcast as well you could check out.

"Blogger Baal could actually be a lot more correct than we give him credit for. It appears to me that ISIS is indeed the Goddess of this world."

No - anyway you slice it - or redraw it - or recolor it - or redress it - or give it another name - it is still satan - (and his minions) destine for the everlasting fire which God created especially for him and those who follow him.

"But alas, they are all sadly deficient, because they leave us under the domination of political and religious prejudices; and they are as inefficient as the sleepy dose of an ordinary sermon."

Adam Weishaupt

I will now begin my series of discourses on the illumination you are all sorely in need of.

Stay Tuned! and all Bow to Isis!
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I searched the blog but found no information about this New Age operation. I was trying to find more information on the Fire in the Crystal Conference where Solana gave a speech, but wasn't very lucky getting past two articles.
Front page listing organizations and individuals involved.

Read about this man's connection to the World Bank for many years and then follow with his beliefs.


Kosmos is honored to salute Alfredo Sfeir-Younis, a beloved member of the Kosmos Advisory Board and deeply respected and dedicated Global Citizen. Recently retired from twenty-nine years at the World Bank,

"...In 1947, the Council of the Supreme Spirit allowed me to return to earth. This was not a unanimous decision, but I insisted so much that they let me come. I was not the only one who attended the meeting of the Council; my four siblings were there, too. It was a group decision and all five us engaged in intense negotiations. We all felt that Chile would be the right place to be born this time around and we became part of the same family. We chose the same parents―Alberto and Ines—who came to earth before us for many important reasons. As a result of the negotiations, one sibling decided to precede me and the three remaining ones were born after me. All of these deliberations might have happened thousands of years ago...."

This guy is a follower of Urantia.
The articles and back issues lead to the Global Oneness Project, where involved people do like Obama.

Jan Birchfield writes in the current issue:

"For me, Barack Obama’s message ‘yes, we can’ represents a fundamental belief in the intelligence and goodness of Consciousness itself. It represents trust in the unfolding of Creation, regardless of whether we are in a cycle of growth or destruction."

Maybe I need to give Obama another chance. Come to think of it, this magazine has answers to so many problems in the world.

If only I had time to read all of the back issues I could solve the problems in the world.

Journey Toward World Community

Religion | Religions Today | An Integral Perspective

Economics | Beyond Bailouts

Business | Reorganizing the Future

See, answers to everything. Oh joy oh rapturous joy. But first I have to discover which planet or star is my home.
I just have to get with it.

I just received John MacArthur's new book Truth Endures which is a collection of some of his sermons over the last 40 years. I came across this quote referring to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:4:

Now of course the world is going to hate them. The New Age society is going to hate them. The people who explain the Rapture away by saying we removed all those people who were holding us back from reaching the next level of consciousness are going to hate them, especially when they preach Jesus Christ."

I find this interesting because the sermon itself is dated December 5, 1982. I'm surprised that MacArthur was this educated about the New Age movement at that time.

Now, I must tell you how I got this book. About 2 weeks ago I heard one of MacArthur's sermons on Revelation on our local talk radio which coincided with my own study of the book. At the end, he mentioned a booklet available on the Book of Revelation; so, I sent an email and ordered it.

The other day I received a standard form letter (although it had my name at the top) thanking me for my interest which included the obligatory envelope to support the ministry. Initially, I was angry as I stated in my email that I was thankful the booklet was free to first time contacts to the ministry (I'm currently on par to make less than half of last year's income due to the economy). There was no mention at all of the booklet I ordered although there was a nice glossy insert detailing another booklet. I was angry enough to contact the ministry and express my displeasure; but, I decided to wait and cool off before doing anything.

However, the next day I received in the mail a nice new hardbound book Truth Endures which contained the sermon/booklet I ordered. Inside the box was this note:

About Your Free Book

Thank you for requesting a free copy of John MacArthur's booklet, A Jet Tour Through Revelation.

Due to the unexpected death of a member of our editorial staff, production of the booklet was delayed. As a result, we've taken the liberty of sending you John's new book Truth Endures. It contains the "Jet-Tour" material you requested, as well as eleven additional, full-length messages. Please enjoy it with our compliments.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

Grace To You

Inconvenience?! I was very impressed with their generosity!

Lots of lessons learned with this incidence.

As an aside, while I respect MacArthur I do want to point out that I do not agree with his stance on everything (he has a cessationist view on spiritual gifts which I find unsupportable in light of 1 Cor 12-14, as one example) as I disagree with every single preacher I've ever heard on some points -- some more so than others. It doesn't mean I'm necesarily right on these points, however.
Thanks for the link for the health care bill, Susanna. I used Acrobat Pro to do "OCR character recognition" and it took about one minute to make the .pdf bill searchable using that tool.

Yes, John McArthur was educated at the New Age Movement in December 1982, because my national work on the subject started on May 1, 1982. I understand McArthur had publicly credited me for same about that time. A local minister here told me he heard McArthur talk about my work on the radio.

Excuse my misspelling, I blieve it is "MacArthur" not "McArthur."

Good info on the John MacArthur booklet. I've been wondering whether to order it. I must say that he has an outstanding sermon on the rapture that can be found on YouTube. A good, clean, logical explaination of the pretribulation view. Worth watching even if you don't agree. I think I'll go on and order that item from GTY.
Anon 9:59:

Yes, MacArthur's sermon on Revelation does a good job of explaining his pre-trib rapture view. I currently don't subscribe to that view; but, my mind is not closed on it.

I'm glad John MacArthur heard your work, took it seriously, and gave you credit for it.
Unlike most of the others! . . .

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We have discussed it before - now here is an article on it -
Brain Implants

It is a shame that most Christian leaders do not take the NAM/NWO seriously. I will rarely hear snippets like Pastor Leo Gionvinetti of Mission Valley Christian Fellowship mentioning the NWO recently on local radio almost in passing in his sermon; but, it's few and far between.

When I talk about it to other Christian friends most just don't want to hear it, others will listen but then go on with 'life' while still others look at me as if I've just come out of the state hospital.

What are ya gonna do?
Sri Chinmoy has had influence within music circles. Excellent guitarists John McLaughlin and Carlos Santana are devotees. So, is Alice Coltrane. I'm sure there are many others I'm just not thinking of right now.

Music in general is permeated with various New Age influences.
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A pastor by definition is to look after his flock. I feel that educating the flock about the New Age movement/apostasy will help the congregation (or ekklesia) to not fall into these traps. This knowledge can also lead to conversions to the faith.

In addition, this knowledge is especially important as many 'Christian leaders' themselves are wolves in sheep's clothing.

An ounce of prevention (foreknowledge) is worth a pound or cure (deprogramming).
Greg wrote:

As for church leadership, I beileve it is good to know the truth about the world leadership, because it can keep them calm when the attack against the church escalates. They shall know the truth and the truth shall set them free.

I must correct you on your use of John 8:32 as I see/hear this misused quite a bit. Here it is in context:

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:31-32 NIV

The truth is the Gospel Truth. Knowing various other 'truths' does not necessarily set you free.

Ghose (Sri Chinmoy) was the youngest of seven children, born in Shakpura village in the Chittagong District of East Bengal (now Bangladesh). His parents were Shashi Kumar Ghosh, a railway inspector turned banker, and Yogamaya Ghosh, an Indian homemaker of devout temperament. He lost his father to illness in 1943, and his mother a few months later. Orphaned, in 1944 the 12-year-old Ghose joined his brothers and sisters at the Sri Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry, South India, where elder brothers Hriday and Chitta had already established a presence....

The Sri Aurobindo Ashram in Pondicherry, South India was founded by Sri Aurobindo on November 24, 1926 (Siddhi Day), and in December of that year

Sri Aurobindo decided to withdraw from public view, and appointed his co-worker Mirra Alfassa, thenceforth known as THE MOTHER in charge of the ashram.

"The Mother" would have been still in charge of the ashram when Sri Chinmoy joined his brothers and sisters after the death of his parents.

Mirra (or Mira) Alfassa was born in Paris in 1878, of a Jewish Turkish father (Maurice, a banker), and a Jewish Egyptian mother (Mathilde Ismaloun).(both non-religious). She had an elder brother named Matteo. The family had migrated to France the year before she was born. For the first eight years of her life she lived at 62 boulevard Haussmann.

The Mother describes experiences she had as a child in Paris. She says that at age five she realised she did not belong in this world, and her sadhana (spiritual discipline) began then. She claims that she would lapse into bliss and go into a trance sometimes when she was placed in an easy chair or during a meal, much to the annoyance of her mother, who regarded this behaviour as a social embarrassment.

Between eleven and thirteen, she claims, a series of psychic and spiritual experiences revealed to her the existence of God, and man's possibility of uniting with Him.[6] At age 12 she was practicing occultism and claimed to be travelling out of her body...........

.........The Mother claimed that in her meditations she saw several spiritual figures, all of whom offered her help of one type or another.

Around 1904 she encountered in her dreams a dark Asiatic figure whom she called ‘Krishna’. She said that this figure guided her in her inner journey. She came to have total implicit faith in Krishna, and was hoping to meet him one day in real life (Karmayogi no date).


Around 1905 she met the occultist Max Théon, who explained her psychic experiences to her. She paid two extended visits (on the second one she was accompanied by or later joined by Morisset) to Théon's estate at Tlemcen, Algeria, to live with and learn occultism firsthand from Théon and his wife. The Mother had a very high regard for Madame Théon, whom she describes as having exceptional psychokinetic powers. Later, when she had become The Mother, she would often relate some of the extraordinary experiences she had at Tlemcen.

In 1908 the Mother divorced Morisset, and moved to 49 rue de Lévis, Paris.

Around this time the Mother had regular meetings with students and seekers who were attracted to psychical phenomena or to mysticism. In 1906, with her brother Matteo, she founded in Paris a group named l'Idée Nouvelle ("The New Idea"), which met at her home on Wednesday evenings, first at rue Lemercier and then at rue des Lévis, and later at 9 Rue du Val de Grace. Her book "Words of Long Ago" (vol.2 of the Collected Works) is the account of one of these meetings, along with talks she gave to the L'Union de Pensée Féminine, which was a new study group she had established. In a conversation with Prithwindra Mukherjee, one of the members of this group, Alexandra David-Neel, recalled those meetings and of the Mother: "We spent marvellous evenings together with friends, believing in a great future. At times we went to the Bois de Boulogne gardens, and watched the grasshopper-like early aeroplanes take off. I remember her elegance, her accomplishments, her intellect endowed with mystical tendencies. In spite of her great love and sweetness, in spite even of her inherent ease of making herself forgotten after achieving some noble deed, she couldn't manage to hide very well the tremendous force she bore within herself."

In 1912 Mirra organised a group of around 20 people named Cosmique, who had the aim of gaining self-knowledge and self-mastery. Although she had not yet met Sri Aurobindo, some of her ideas at the time paralleled his. These were later included at the start of her small book, Conversations.

In 1910 she had what she described as an experience of a reversal of consciousness in which she realised the Divine Will at the very center of her being, and from that moment onwards was no longer motivated by personal desire, but only wanted to do the Divine Will.

Around this time she married Paul Richard. Richard had travelled to India, seeking election to the French Senate from Pondicherry,[16] and while there had met Sri Aurobindo in Pondicherry in mid-April 1910. This seems to have been when Sri Aurobindo first heard about Mirra and her Idea group. Richard informed Mirra of Sri Aurobindo and Sri Aurobindo remained in "material and spiritual correspondence" with the Richards for the next four years entire article.....


Max Théon (1848-1927) perhaps born Louis-Maximilian Bimstein, was a Polish Jewish Kabbalist and Occultist. In London while still a young man, he established The Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor in 1870, but seemed to have little to do with the day to day running of the organisation, or indeed its actual teachings (Chanel et al., Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor).

There is some dispute over whether Theon taught Blavatsky at some stage; the Mother in The Agenda says he did, Chanel et al. considers this unlikely, while K. Paul Johnson argues in The Masters Revealed that the mahatma Tuitit Bey is actually Theon.

In 1885 Theon married Mary Chrystine Woodroffe Ware (Madame Alma Theon), and the following year the couple moved to Paris. In December 1887, the Theons left France for Algiers, where they were later joined by Alma Theon's friend Augusta Roife (Miss Teresa), and acquired a large estate in Zarif, a suburb of Tlemcen, Algeria. However Theon would still go on frequent visits to Paris.

Theon gathered a number of students, including Louis Themanlys and Charles Barlet, and they established the "Cosmic Movement". This was based on material, called the Cosmic Tradition, received or perhaps channelled by Theon's wife. They established the journal Cosmic Review, for the "study and re-establishment of the original Tradition". Theon stated that his wife Alma was the moving spirit behind this idea, and without her the Tradition and the cosmic philosophy would never have come about.

Louis was a friend of Matteo Alfassa, the brother of Mirra Alfassa (who would later associate with Sri Aurobindo and become The Mother), and in 1905 or 1906 Mirra travelled to Tlemcen to study occultism under Theon (Sujata Nahar, Mirra the Occultist). The Mother mentions that Sri Aurobindo and Theon had independently and at the same time arrived at some similar conclusions about evolution of human consciousness without having met each other. The Mother's design of Sri Aurobindo's symbol is very similar to that of Theon's, with only small changes in the proportions of the central square (Mother's Agenda, vol 3, p.454). more

The Kabbalism of Max Theon and The Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor is likely to have morphed out of the heretical,bowdlerized, "kabbalistic," "magickal" creations that originated with false "messiah" Sabbatai Tzvi and one of his more illustrious heretical successors, Jacob Frank, who originated the so-called "ecstatic" (a.k.a. "orgiastic") cults that were collectively called "Frankist."



Unfortunately, this heretical "Frankist" movement has often been confused with authentic Judaism - just as certain heretical elements of the "New Age Movement" are often confused with Christianity. For example:

Frankfurt am Main. Many members belonging to the Asiatic Brethren became members of a German Masonic Lodge called "L'Aurore Naissante" or The Nascent Dawn. Also, individuals and families associated with the Philanthropin school in Frankfurt. Philanthropin was what was known as a Reform School, not as we use the term today, more like what we call "Charter Schools" these days. The Philanthropin school was originally the brainchild of Basedow, an Illuminatus and educational reformer, who established one such institution at Dessau in the previous century, and which was the inspiration for many offshoots. According to some sources, the Nascent Dawn Lodge was originally chartered by the Grand Orient of France.

Frankfurt-am-Main. According to Nazi propagandist and anti-Mason, Dietrich Schwartz, in Freemasonry, Ideology, Organization, and Policy, we get the following particulars concerning the foundation of the Nascent Dawn Lodge:

"1807 Jewish Lodge in Frankfurt am Main

"A fundamental turning point occurred in 1807. Jews gathered together to found a new Lodge in Frankfurt am Main in order to:

"'Create a temple in Frankfurt am Main under the protection of the Grand Orient of France, the most powerful architect of all worlds.'

"This first tolerance lodge, which adopted the name At The Rising Dawn, soon became the entrance tunnel for Jewish Masonic burrowings.

"The famous Ludwig Baruch-Börne was a celebrated guest at this lodge and occupied the office of Brother Speaker, while playing a fateful role as a representative of the Young Germany movement along with Heine, pouring his biting scorn on all that was holy in Germany, calling Goethe a doggerelising farmhand, and the German Folk a Nation of flunkies, who fawningly brought back the royal master's lost crown at the call of Go Fetch!"

Many members belonging to the Asiatic Brethren or Fratres Lucis became members of a German masonic lodge called L'Aurore Naissante (or "the Nascent Dawn") founded in Frankfurt-on-Main in 1807.

Since the Frankists often pretended to "convert" to Christianity and Islam - and now even Buddhism - certain elements of Frankism - especially the tantric elements - have often been made manifest in those religions as well.

It was a hand-picked successor of Jacob Frank named Moses Dobrushka (a.k.a. Junius Frey, a.k.a. Franz Thomas von Schoenfeld ) who is said to have founded the Asiatic Brethren ( "Fratres Lucis") from which the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) are derived.

More on Moses Dobrushka:

Moses Dobruška (1753–1794) was a nephew of Jacob Frank, the founder of the Frankist sect who claimed to be the Jewish messiah. Dobruška was an alchemist, freemason, writer, and poet. In 1773 he converted from Judaism to the Catholic faith and took the name of Franz Thomas Schönfeld. In 1778 he was elevated to nobility in Vienna, becoming Franz Thomas Edler von Schönfeld. Together with Ephraim Joseph Hirschfeld, who did not convert, he became one of the main conspirators of the “Knights of St. John the Evangelists for Asia in Europe,” a secret society of freemasons, which was much talked about in Germany and Austria between 1783 and 1790, not least because it was the first German-speaking fraternal order to accept Jews. In 1792, in the wake of the French Revolution, he traveled via Strasbourg to Paris and became a Jacobin, changing his name, once again, to Junius Frey. He was arrested for treason and espionage and executed by guillotine in 1794.

Now what, one might ask, does all this have to do with Sri Chinmoy?
Read on.......


by Miguel Martinez

The open-armed ecumenism of the TFP - "Tradition Family and Property" - takes on surprising aspects. According to the French journalist, Serge Faubert ("Le vrai visage des sectes", L'Evenement du jeudi, 4-10.11.1993, pp. 44 ff.), Introvigne was one of the only fifteen founding members of a very secret 'Group of Thebes' (Groupe de Thèbes) which used to meet at the French Grand Orient, made up exclusively of leaders of various "Orders" (you can read a translation of most of the article here). The tiny group included quite an interesting variety of individuals:

Massimo Introvigne, who attended the very first meeting of this lodge, on June 3, 1990.

Rémi Boyer, a former Rosicrucian (AMORC) who had created Arc-en-ciel, a federation of occult and New Age groups (including Sri Chinmoy, The Grande Loge indépendante des rites unis, the Institut pour une synthèse planètaire, the Ordre chevaleresque de la Rose-Croix, the Spiritual University of Brahma Kumaris). The Groupe de Thèbes was Boyer's second creation, for a smaller, and presumably higher, group of "initiates". Boyer, by the way, claims to be an "advisor" for the French Ministry of Justice.

Jean-Pierre Giudicelli, leader of the French section of the Order of Myriam and inventor of a handy "elixir of long life", former Corsican nationalist and right-wing militant ("Ordre Nouveau" and "Troisième Voie") more..........


WASHINGTON – Key senators are excluding a provision on end-of-life care from health overhaul legislation after language in a House bill caused a furor.

Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa, top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, said in a statement Thursday that the provision had been dropped from consideration because it could be misinterpreted or implemented incorrectly.

A health care bill passed by three House committees allows Medicare to reimburse doctors for voluntary counseling sessions about end-of-life decisions. But critics have claimed the provision could lead to death panels and euthanasia for seniors.

The Senate Finance Committee is still working to complete a bill.

--From Yahoo (08/13/09)
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WASHINGTON (AP) - Amid a boisterous debate on health care reform, people flooded members of Congress on Thursday with so many e-mails that they overloaded the House's primary Web site.

Technical support issued a warning to congressional staff that the site may be slow or unresponsive because of the large volume of e-mail being sent to members.

Jeff Ventura, a spokesman for the House's chief administrative officer, which maintains the Web site, said traffic data was not available and could not be released without the lawmakers' consent.

But anecdotally, he said, the spike in e-mail volume was widely believed to be a result of the health care debate.

"It is clearly health care reform," Ventura said. "There's no doubt about it."

Lawmakers are in their home districts this month for the August recess, where a populist backlash has emerged in some quarters against President Barack Obama's plan to reform the nation's health care system.

--From MyWay (08/13/09
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New York Post/July 19, 2004

By Alex Ginsberg

A Queens guru who's been accused of seducing women despite his vow of chastity has stacked U.N. headquarters with scores of followers in a bid to promote himself as an advocate for world peace, according to ex-cult members.

As many as 60 U.N. clerical workers and mid-level managers are devotees of Sri Chinmoy, 73, a spiritual leader espousing a philosophy of vegetarianism, celibacy, meditation and extreme athletics, ex-members said.

The guru, whose actual name is Chinmoy Kumar Ghose, presides over a worldwide spiritual empire from his home in Jamaica Estates.

In recent years, the self-avowed chaste holy man has been accused of seducing female disciples, The Post reported in May.

November, 2001
Who else should be sharing information about the connection between the occult and politics? Have you forgotten about the commandment warning about idolatry, which includes a warning about the occult?

I have a book called "Like A Mighty Army, Hitler vs Established Religion, George Shuster, 1935. Do you know why these Christians fought against Hitler early on? Because they recognized the paganism in his movement.

Where are the Christians and Jews on a large scale who understand the paganism in today's political movement?


Regarding the article on the Lodge of Thebes you will notice that "L'Arc-en-ciel" stands for "Rainbow."
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Greg, you wrote:

As for other pastors, it is not up to us to judge them. They are servants of God, led by the Holy Spirit. And remember that the church belongs to Jesus Christ, the Great Shepherd of the sheep.

I do not see where I've 'judged' any pastor. I merely presented an opinion. And, further, while we are not to 'judge' hypocritically (Matthew 7:1-6), this does not mean that we cannot identify biblical error. An occasional mistake is one thing, continued outright falsehoods are another.

I don't just assume that anyone who purports to be a 'Christian' is in fact one. I look at the fruit. As I stated earlier, there are many wolves devouring the flock.

Since you feel so strongly, how often have you actually gotten down on your knees and tearfully prayed to God to cause His servants to preach more messages on NAM/NWO?

You are not 'judging' me, are you?

Here is what I did write:

"A pastor by definition is to look after his flock. I feel that educating the flock about the New Age movement/apostasy will help the congregation (or ekklesia) to not fall into these traps. This knowledge can also lead to conversions to the faith."

I didn't think I came across as being particularly 'strong' about this; but, hey it is sometimes hard to convey and interpret tone and intent with the written word. And, no I can't say I've ever once gotten on my knees to pray about this.

Greg, you wrote:

Since you feel so strongly about "educating the flock" about NAM/NWO then I encourage you to become a pastor. If the Lord confirms your ministry you will be very successful.

I've not thought about becoming a pastor as I don't think I have what it takes. I've not been a Christian very long, don't have enough Bible knowledge, nor do I have enough knowledge about the NAM/NWO.
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I agree. And since you are a young Christian then perhaps you should be more observant and not so unstructive.

The Scriptures say:

"My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.

26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

James 1:19-27

Greg D.
Concerning judgment:

"But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one."

1 Corinthians 2:15

That's "instructive" 2 posts above.
Greg, what do you want me to say. The early Christians didn't take a stand against the pagans because they were trying to missionize them. In fact they were getting more pagans to join Christianity than Jews. At that time there was a tie between pagans and politics.

They might have learned from having to run to the catacombs, being put against lions in the arena, and seeing what happened to Rome. But what's a few Christian deaths if you can get people to convert.

The commandment as a warning stands.

Greg, I should add that the advice you quote is great when you are among people who think as you do. It keeps the peace and avoids squabbling among sects. However, it can be pretty bad as the experience with Chamberlain showed. He was so passive and just wanted to be friends with Hitler.
You need to face the fact that many people think people who are so passive and gentle are potential suckers.


I'm not sure if you are intentionally being combative; but, apparently I'm not the only one here who feels you are.

The James verses you cite instruct all [not just 'young' Christians] to be doers and not just listeners of the Word. So, just what are you trying to get at?

And, what did Paul tell Timothy about his youth (mine is not youth in chronological age, but in relative length of time as a Christian at just under 10 years)?

And, just what do you mean by the 1 Cor 2:15 verses? Once again, you are taking scripture out of context. Paul here is making a point that a Christian [spiritual man] receives wisdom through the Holy Spirit as opposed to the worldly (empty) 'wisdom' of the non-Christian.

And, then you slam Dorothy with the passage you quote which, in context, is admonishing to 'walk in the Spirit.' So, you're accusing Dorothy of not walking in the Spirit? Talk about being judgmental!!

Throwing out scriptures without putting into some kind of context (explaining your meaning) is pretty much worthless.

You claim to be a minister; yet, you apparently do not have a good grasp of scripture -- or at least how to use it for correcting or rebuking (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Study to show thyself approved!

Now, I see what you were trying to say to Dorothy which I misunderstood in my post @ 12:42pm above. However, if you put it in proper context using verses 5:11 & 12:

11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.

We are told to expose the 'fruitless deeds of darkness.' Then Paul admonishes the Ephesians to 'be very careful,' to 'live as wise' and be 'filled with the Spirit' rather than do the 'fruitless deeds of darkness.'

Once again, you take scripture out of context for the passage you cite does not instruct us to turn a blind eye to the pagans. In fact, verses 11 & 12 show otherwise.

You really need to be a bit more clear with your intent rather than just throwing out scripture.
If you want to get an idea of a few of the books Constance has used to come to her conclusions, this website will help.


.....Rémi Boyer, a former Rosicrucian (AMORC) who had created Arc-en-ciel, a federation of occult and New Age groups (including Sri Chinmoy, The Grande Loge indépendante des rites unis, the Institut pour une synthèse planètaire, the Ordre chevaleresque de la Rose-Croix, the Spiritual University of Brahma Kumaris). The Groupe de Thèbes was Boyer's second creation, for a smaller, and presumably higher, group of "initiates". Boyer, by the way, claims to be an "advisor" for the French Ministry of Justice.

Jean-Pierre Giudicelli, leader of the French section of the Order of Myriam and inventor of a handy "elixir of long life", former Corsican nationalist and right-wing militant ("Ordre Nouveau" and "Troisième Voie......

I wasn't sure if you were addressing me regarding your post about Constance's books; so, I thought I'd respond just in case. I bought a copy of Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow in the late '80s. Later, I bought A Planned Deception and I found a copy of her booklet Is the Antichrist in the World Today? (B-349) from 1982 as well.

I was at least somewhat informed about the New Age Movement well before I finally became a Christian thanks to Constance's work. Last year I wrote an introductory series/overview on the NAM/NWO which was posted on a couple blogs when I found after visiting a number of blogs discussing the Latter Rain/MSoG/Joel's Army/etc heresies that most Christians had no idea of the NAM/NWO.

I also have a copy of Alice Bailey's From Bethlehem to Calvary which I quoted bits from in the series paralleling some of its contents with quotes from Mike Bickle [International House of Prayer, formerly Kansas City Fellowship], Bob Jones [Kansas City Fellowship], Rick Joyner [MorningStar Ministries] and Bill Johnson [Bethel Church, Redding, CA, who spoke at Todd Bentley's 'commissioning' last year] -- all part of the new Latter Rain aka New Apostolic Reformation.

Greg wrote to Dorothy: "always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

We give thanks to God the Father for everything directly -- in nobody's name.

"God is near to all who call on Him (Ps. 145:18):" to all who call him without an intermediary. No person needs the aid of others to approach God. Judaism frowns on choosing anyone, including angels, priests, the sun or the son, to be an intercessor for the community. A person needs no advocate or special pleader. Every person is assured that, whenever he knocks on Heaven's gate, it will open for him.

One of the thirteen principles of Judaism is "that to [God the Father] alone it is fitting to pray, and it is not fit to pray to any being besides Him."

BTW, do not neglect to fo back to the prior thread to check out my responses to your later messages there.

Hey all a new alien themed movie coming out this weekend. District 9. If anyone is going to see it and want to write a commentary, let me know.
Craig, links to the blog series you are referring to would be interesting.
Constance, this article was on Worldnetdaily this morning, perhaps you have heard of this guy.

I WOULD LOVE to know your opinion re: his claim that Europe is not what Daniel was referring to, but instead, Middle Eastern countries.

Beheadings: Old terror alive again in 21st century
Author points to biblical prophecy about fate of saints
The author of the hit prophecy book, "The Islamic Antichrist," says his thesis is supported by a wave of beheadings taking place in the Muslim world today.

Joel Richardson believes it is a foreshadowing of what is described in Revelation 20:4:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.
Richardson's thesis about who will carry out the persecution of the saints in the endtimes conflicts with the widely held theory of a Roman or European "Antichrist," popularized in the 1960s and 1970s by best-selling author Hal Lindsey and other prophecy teachers.

Read Richardson's newest commentary on the subject of the Antichrist.

"Now, while many students of prophecy have looked to Europe for an empire and a religion to emerge that will eventually legislate the beheading of Christians, many are now abandoning this notion as silly," writes Richardson in a column in WND today. "In Europe today, popular sentiment expresses an open revulsion at the wild and barbaric practices of some American states because they still continue to execute their murderers. Europe simply does not fit the many descriptions in the Bible of the iron-toothed beast-like empire that is said to overwhelm the earth in the days prior to the return of Jesus. And so, as Europe continues its slide toward a toothless effete state, so also does the slide away from the Euro-centric Antichrist paradigm also continue. The Euro-centric end time perspective is simply looking far less plausible than it once did. Instead, many are now turning their eyes toward radical Islam.

Richardson says radical Islam is using beheadings right now in various parts of the world to punish those who refuse to convert to Islam.

Just last Thursday, he points out, a Nigerian newspaper offered an account of how three Christian pastors were beheaded for refusing to submit to Islam.

"The pastors… were asked to change their faith to Islam... I think there was an argument by one of the pastors which gave the others some level of confidence to also resist accepting Islam… They came out later to the courtyard within the compound and cut their heads one after the other and thereafter, shouted allah akbar in wild celebration accompanied with several gun shots."
In "The Islamic Antichrist," Richardson, a student of Islam, exposes Western Christians to the Muslim traditions. He says most Christians have no idea of the stunning similarities between biblical Antichrist and the "Islamic Mahdi."
Article cont:

Richardson's book stands in stark contrast to most other popular prophecy books of the last 40 years.

The student of the Middle East says that after decades of reading popular prophecy books and even best-selling fiction like the "Left Behind" series, millions of evangelical Christians around the world are expecting the Antichrist to emerge from a revived Roman Empire, which many have assumed is associated with the Roman Catholic Church and the European Union.

Not so, argues Richardson. His book makes the case that the biblical Antichrist is one and the same as the Quran's Muslim Mahdi.

"The Islamic Antichrist," is a book almost certain to be greeted in the Muslim world with the same enthusiasm as Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses." The author, Joel Richardson, is prepared. He has written the book under a pseudonym to protect himself and his family.

"The Bible abounds with proofs that the Antichrist's empire will consist only of nations that are, today, Islamic," says Richardson. "Despite the numerous prevailing arguments for the emergence of a revived European Roman empire as the Antichrist's power base, the specific nations the Bible identifies as comprising his empire are today all Muslim."

Richardson believes the key error of many previous prophecy scholars involves the misinterpretation of a prediction by Daniel to Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel describes the rise and fall of empires of the future, leading to the endtimes. Western Christians have viewed one of those empires as Rome, when, claims Richardson, Rome never actually conquered Babylon and was thus disqualified as a possibility.

It had to be another empire that rose and fell and rose again that would lead to rule of this "man of sin," described in the Bible. That empire, he says, is the Islamic Empire, which did conquer Babylon and, in fact, rules over it even today.

Many evangelical Christians believe the Bible predicts a charismatic ruler, the Antichrist, will arise in the last days, before the return of Jesus. The Quran also predicts that a man, called the Mahdi, will rise up to lead the nations, pledging to usher in an era of peace. Richardson makes the case these two men are, in fact, one in the same.

I'm on the run right now; but, briefly I'll say that Europe has been recently infiltrated with Muslim populations which I believe are the fastest growing immigrant group. Some European countries are even adopting Sharia law.
Rev. 13:1
And I stood upon the sand of the sea and I saw rise up out of the sea a beast having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns and on his heads the name of blasphemy...

And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and seat and great authority.

I've begun memorizing portions of Scripture regarding the end times. This one came to mind. It occurs to me (though I am not an endtimes scholar) that Craig has a point, and it confirms something that I have been musing upon lately.

With the rapid rise of Islam in Europe and its influence in those governments, could it be that the leopard represents its Islamic nature which is being more and more represented and fueled by Iran. (Persia--the leopard--compare with Daniel prophecies)

Iran's military power is backed by Russia (feet of a bear).

It is also interesting the wrangling of the presidency of the European Union as it regards Tony Blair, who seems to be out of the picture for now. But who knows the future? Perhaps this is the "mouth", the spokesman, of the lion.

If these conjectures are true, we should be watching for a "head" that is wounded to death with a sword, and then healed.

Just something to think about...

Thank you for sharing that WND article with us!

It is indeed a very interesting perspective to consider seriously - especially in light of Craig's astute observation concerning the infiltration of Europe by Muslim immigrants and his comment about the adoption of Sharia law by certain European countries.
An argument against Joel Richardson's theory would be that Islam does not allow for making of or worshiping of images. Rev. 13:14, 15.

Does he account for that?
Peacebringer, I found the link to Craig's articles.
Where are the Christians and Jews on a large scale who understand the paganism in today's political movement?

there aren't any large numbers of them - thats why people look at us sideways when we have the converstion about these things with them -
anony, oh those are craig's then certainly have read them...

Re: Your comment

With the rapid rise of Islam in Europe and its influence in those governments, could it be that the leopard represents its Islamic nature which is being more and more represented and fueled by Iran. (Persia--the leopard--compare with Daniel prophecies)

I am not an endtimes scholar either, but you have also made a very good point.

As for the fact that Islam does not allow for the making of or the worshipping of images, isn't it possible that the "Muslims" Richardson is referring to are merely using Islam as a stepping stone to earthly power?

Similar to the way in which the late Baathist (Arab Socialist) Party member Saddam Hussein hypocritically pretended to be a model of Islamic piety in order to win the support of his "constituents?"

Iraq was formerly Babylon.

Iran was formerly Persia.

But as I said, I do not in any way pretend to be an authority on endtimes prophecy.

You have admitted that you are a new Christian. So why must you try to teach on spiritual matters?

I will explain scripture if you ask, but to blast me with insults is not very encouraging or spiritual.

Jesus, when He taught did not always explain everything so clearly. He is also not explaining everything that happens to us in the world. So just what does constitute good teaching? Is is not just sometimes to provoke thought?

I only came to this site to enjoy talking with people about a subject in which I am interested. However, judging from the way I am being spoken to, I am not sure I am welcomed, and that is the problem with many churches today; they do not make newcomers feel welcomed.

When someone who loves God and wants to share ideas with you is made to feel that they are unworthy, you run the risk of being percieved as unloving and unkind. My sincere concern here is that in all the analyzing about what is wrong with the world, we may be neglecting what is wrong with us--in our own heart. And the job of a minister (whereas the Bible says we are all ministers, those who are in Christ) is to be concerned for the heart.

Here is another verse for your consideratin: "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."(John 3:35)

I think that should be self-explanatory.

Greg D.
Here is another verse for your consideratin: "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."(John 3:35)

But that is no excuse for "sloppy agape"

As for your continued assertion that I have no business 'teaching' on spiritual matters because of my relative newness in Christ: The Word of God provided by the Holy Spirit gives me authority to speak against your taking scripture out of context. If you continue to take God's Word out of context I will continue to correct it.

In fact, when I did correct you above on John 8:32 you chose to acknowledge only by criticizing my very simple response by elaborating on just what the "Gospel" is. I saw that as a smokescreen. Whether or not you've seen/heard this used out of context has no bearing on whether or not you did in fact take it out of context.

And, you've not acknowledged that you've taken Ephesians 5:15-21 out of context in your comment to Dorothy.

You wrote:
I will explain scripture if you ask, but to blast me with insults is not very encouraging or spiritual.

As far as the insult, I'm assuming you're referring to my comments @ 12:42am. If I'm incorrect, please let me know. I admitted above that I misunderstood your intention initially with your Ephesians post to Dorothy in a subsequent comment. I caught my error soon after it was posted and I would have edited the comments; but, I do not know how.

I did ask you above to explain what you meant in my comments @ 12:42am.

Perhaps I'm just not getting it; but, from my vantage point I detect a bit of passive aggressiveness in past comments -- and not just ones directed towards me.

For the record, I'm new at posting over here as I've been doing this for only a few weeks.
...back to Jaclyn's comments of 9:00am:

Sharia law in the UK:

Sharia law in France:

Sharia in Europe:

If we are both Christians then we should love each other. We should be trying to make peace. However, we obviously do not agree, nor do we seem do have similar dispositions. So does your hostility serve any use?

Please read this my friend:

"But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned." (Titus 3:9-11)

If you do not love me, Craig, then it is important that you ask God to put love in your heart for His servants. Any further discussion with you I believe will cause you to stumble and sin against God. So unless you want to speak to me with patient love and compassionate gentleness, I think it is better that we end our contact for now.

Greg D.

Well, I'm trying to answer your concerns, yet, when I do you do not acknowledge them. Then, you accuse me of being 'unloving.' I love the Word of God (the Logos, Jesus: John 1:1-14) first and foremost; and, when it's taken out of context I will correct it. If you will not take the correction; then, that's on you.

I've attempted to make right the 'insult; but, you've not let me know if I was correct on just what the insult was/is.

You wrote: Any further discussion with you I believe will cause you to stumble and sin against God.

So, from your perspective it's about me and not you. OK...
It's all about Jesus.

We all have an obligation to serve Him. I now understand that this blog was never intended to be a Christian blog so no one has any right to expect anyone here to act Christian.

I hope all of you are attending church, praying and reading the Bible regularly. Please do not allow all the distractions of Satan by means of His elitist groups hinder your spiritual growth or or to errode the rewards you could have had in servng God His way.
Attention all:

Before anyone decides to engage with Baal, please remember the kind of person he is. This is an excerpt from what he wrote on a recent thread to Constance

You are a fraud. You prey on people who are completely dependent on their faith just to get through the day....

You collect rot sources and string them together to form the wildest theories about how peoples religious freedom is going to be striped away....

And you carry on with this nonsense, preying on people who are frightened out of their minds. And you make money off of it.

You are also a filthy and disgusting bigot....

You edit your own Wikipedia page to make yourself seem sane.

You are a liar, and a mentally ill fraud.

Here is hoping the "pagan's" destroy both your work and your religion.

This is the kind of abuse he has posted publicly on this blog. Regardless of his religious affiliation, do you really want to engage on any level with someone who acts in such a way?

I know that I don't.

I am going to post this on the other thread as a reminder to those of you who may not realize what you are actually dealing with.

He can be "charming" but he has nailed his true colors to the mast. By all means pray for him and especially his children, but please ask yourself if you want to engage with someone who acts in such a blatantly abusive manner.
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Hey Davis I'm curious. What seminary did you attend where they taught you to lay a guilt trip on people? Just what Bible verse tells you to be manipulative when dealing with others? That's some strange religion you are promoting. It's definitely not Christianity.

"Good health is the will of God for each and every one of God’s children. Death, disease, and pain did not exist in the garden of Eden, and Revelation tells of a “new heaven and new earth,” where once again they will not exist.

I can spot false humility in just over one second...
As I was reading some of the first article Dorothy posted I saw off to the side an article by Emergent Church leader (and false ecumenical practitioner) Brian McLaren:

"As a result, I sometimes think that Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, and Fox News may now influence many conservative evangelicals, charismatics, and Catholics more than Billy Graham, Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes, Pope Benedict, or even the four gospels."

I'll reserve comment on the Pope in deference to Catholic readers here; but, Warren and Jakes are both apostates -- just like McLaren.

"Now, in the debate about health care, I am similarly disheartened to see the relative silence of thoughtful Christian voices as counterpoint to the predictable rhetoric of the more reactive voices. Over the last few weeks, I’ve been getting mass e-mails and Web links from evangelical and charismatic organizations that present frightening and outlandish claims about what President Obama is planning to do regarding health care. I’ve checked into these claims, and in case after case, they are simply false. They’re based on rumors spread by certain dramatic radio and cable-tv personalities, but they are not based in truth."

I'm glad to see McLaren has deciphered HR3200. Right...
From Slice of Laodecia
Buddhism strengthens ties to church

An article showing how Buddhism has been adopted and accepted by many Christians and Jews as part of their religious practices.

If New Age leaders have their way, Buddhism will overtake both, if not in name then in practice.

As Mortimer Adler wrote, Eastern religions are acceptable for a New World Order, but Judaism and Christianity are not because they have a moral code that can't be proven scientifically.

Don't forget the comments when you read this.

Thank you for all your work on this site Constance. I thought you'd be interested to know that today's (09/08/14)Windsor Star carried the excerpt from Dr. Tamm's book.


Re: Richardson's ideas about the Islamic Anti-christ...

The Iranian leadership believes it is their sacred duty to prepare the world for the return of the Mahdi. The time is near, they say, as per "Signs to the Rightly Guided World".

Don't know if you saw my post on the previous thread.... with so much bickering, hen pecking, and theological soap box one-upmanship going in the comments section these days, is easy to overlook relevent information.

If you do open the Mahdi website, click on H. R. Wright's work as noted below.

Here's a repost:

The 5th International Conference on the Doctrine of Mahdism
4-5 August 2009, Tehran

”Thema: Society and government which prepare the ground of the appearance:
Missions and strategies”

“Peace be upon the spring of creation and the delight of era.”

1. Preparing the ground for the appearance of the savior; the main responsibility for those who await him.
2. The Savior and preparing the ground for his appearance (the savior’s management in age of occultation and his role in controlling the world's affairs )
3. Forms of preparing the ground in different eras and periods
4. Society and preparing the ground for the appearance (analysis of the world's current situation)
5. Governments and preparation the ground (evaluation of governments in occultation age)
6. The Islamic Republic and preparing the ground
Missions and strategies
1. Cultural missions and strategies
2. Social missions and strategies
3. Political missions and strategies
4. Economic missions and strategies
Opportunities and threats
1. The waiting society, its challenges and crises
2. Information and technology: threat or opportunity
3. The waiting society, the oppressed people of the world, and justice seeking movements
4. The waiting society and globalization
5. Unjust governments and international systems: threat or opportunity
6. Confrontation with world arrogance

Of particular interest to me is a paper entitled:

“Belial, Antichrist, and Dajjal: Personification of Lawlessness in Abrahamic Eschatology; Signs to the Rightly Guided World”

by H.R Wright

Source : scientific committee of the international Mahdism doctrine conference

This paper lays out a comparison of the Jewish, Christian, and Moslem perspectives re the appearance or, reappearance, of the Mahdi, Messiah (messiah), Christ (christ), World Savior (server). It’s worth a look even though obviously slanted towards the Islamic perspective. The paper concludes with the following statement:

“Our participation becomes a bright and shining sign of the preparation of the rightly guided world.”

“~Wa’Llahu a’lam: And Allah knows best.”

The H.R. Wright paper does a really good job of comparing and contrasting the eschatology of the "Abrahamic" faiths. Thanks for reposting as I saw it on the previous thread but did not read it.
I'll reserve comment on the Pope in deference to Catholic readers here; but, Warren and Jakes are both apostates -- just like McLaren.

Kudos to you Craig!!

From Slice of Laodecia
Buddhism strengthens ties to church

While I believe that Christianity and Buddhism are mutually exclusive and that a person cannot simultaneously be BOTH a Christian AND a Buddhist, I don't think that the type of "proselytizing" dipicted by the photos included in the comments section is going to be very successful in "showing anyone the error of his ways."

Insofar as such loveless, self-righteous judgemental "proselytizing" - whether Catholic or Protestant - gives scandal in terms of its implication that Jesus is an omnipotent tyrant with its focus on "sending people to hell," it only succeeds in making people dig in their heels as they consign the proselytizers to that "place of great heat" in return.

Here is the occupation force for the US.

And here is the start of the thing needed to get them into action - manditory vaccinations in Colorado -
Dorothy - what a find, thanks - it is obvious that the worst is yet to come - I can not seem to wake up even those who are not strident supports of obama, and I have already turned myself in as an enemy of the state


Re: Your comment

I'll reserve comment on the Pope in deference to Catholic readers here; but, Warren and Jakes are both apostates -- just like McLaren.

Kudos to you from me as well, Craig.

Charitably "agreeing to disagree" here is the only way that we are not going to get diverted from the main purpose for which I have been led to believe (by my friend the late Carrie Tomko)that this blog was established in the first place....a non-sectarian forum where information on the New Age Movement could be shared by all.

If I had believed that this blog was intended by Constance to be an exclusively Protestant Christian forum, then I would never have started participating in the discussions here in the first place.

Not because I have anything against Protestant Christians or do not respect their beliefs or their sincerity or believe in their goodness - but because it was never my desire to participate on a blog where I would be made to feel myself compelled to engage in denominational religious polemics with fellow Christians instead of fighting shoulder to shoulder with those same fellow Christians against New Age encroachments into ALL of Christianity - BOTH Catholic and Protestant.

I am hearing a lot about the so-called "evils" of "ecumenism.

There are two kinds of "ecumenism." There is a true kind of ecumenism described by people like C.S. Lewis in which Christians (and non-Christians) are willing to join together and fight the good fight for the sake of what they DO agree on (while honestly acknowledging and respecting each others differences, of course).

And then there is the false kind of "ecumenism" which is not "ecumenism" at all, but rather "indifferentism" (i.e. "one religion is as good as another") or "syncretism" (i.e. a fusion of dissimilar or incompatible religious beliefs such as mixing Christianity with Buddhism or paganism).

As I have already repeated many times, I will be the first one to drop the hammer on so-called "Catholics" - whether lay Catholics or members of the Catholic clergy like Hans Kung, Richard McBrien, etc. - who presume to peddle their apostate New Age beliefs as authentic "Christianity."

As for the Pope, just for the record in case you are not clear on this, I am allowed, as a Catholic, to respectfully disagree with the Pope's private opinions.

We Catholics believe that the Pope is only protected by the Holy Spirit when teaching "ex cathedra" (from the chair of Peter) in matters of faith and morals. We are not required (as some erroneously think) to march in lockstep with everything the Pope happens to say or think.

This is an important distinction because it has been shown that the Pope has already been misrepresented by the news media on more than one occasion.

If a doctrinal mandate came out of Rome that we, as Catholics, were required to obey, we would likely receive notice from our bishops vis a vis letters from said bishops that would be read by pastors to their congregations during the homily at Mass in every parish of the diocese.

LOL At the end of the day, I think it is safe to say that the Pope will not be relying on the news media as his officially delegated "teaching proxy" any time soon. And that includes L'Osservatore Romano! :-)
Susanna and anonymous,

Yes, I’m weary of the disagreements erupting from various beliefs here; so, from now on I will only challenge out of context scripture from professing Christians on this blog. ‘Nuff said.


You probably didn't view the link above that anonymous referenced; but, you may find this article I wrote of interest as it explains ecumenism (as you did) and syncretism. I provide examples of false ecumenism and its practitioners throughout the Christian community (including James A. Kowalski, Dean, Cathedral of Saint John the Divine, NY as signatory of “A Christian Response…”). I'm linking to another blog than the one above as comments go 'live' much sooner in case you wish to comment over there:

I also quote Pope Benedict XVI and show his ties to the UN. I also point out similarities in his words to Latter Rain doctrine (belief in a ‘new Pentecost,’ his desire to not let doctrine ‘divide the church’)

I was not aware that Catholics can ‘respectfully disagree with the pope’s private opinions’ as I thought the infallibility of the Pope was non-negotiable. Thanks for pointing that out.

I’ve not studied this closely – so you may correct me if I’m wrong – but, I believe the Catholic Charismatic Movement is from the same polluted stream as the New Order of Latter Rain / New Apostolic Reformation.
I thought the infallibility of the Pope was non-negotiable.


The Pope's infallibility is non-negotiable -- but only when he is speaking ex cathedra in matters of faith and morals. Susanna has explained this above.
hmm... very interesting..
Sorry to be off line this long. I am busy reading Jayanti Tamm's fascinating book and preparing for next week's presentation on the New Age Movement at St. Michael's Media's Spiritual Warfare Conference in Livonia, Michigan.

It is my understanding that "papal infallibility" is only believed to exist when a pope is speaking "ex cathedra" on matters of morals and doctrine.

Frankly, I seen more unjustified faith in "infallibility" of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Rousas John Rushdoony, Bob Mumford, Dennis Peacock, et al than any pope would ever dream of suggesting accrued to him.


Actually, the Wikipedia article on papal infallibility is pretty accurate as well as easy to understand.

I am not quoting the Wikipedia article here in order to try to get you to agree with papal infallibility, but just so that you and others will correctly understand what observant Roman Catholics actually do believe.

As a cradle Catholic, this is what I have believed all my life.


Papal infallibility is the dogma in Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state that the Pope cannot commit sin in his own personal life.

This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1870. According to Catholic theology, there are several concepts important to the understanding of infallible, divine revelation: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium. The infallible teachings of the Pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium". In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the Pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin.

In practice, popes seldom use their power of infallibility, but rely on the notion that the Church allows the office of the pope to be the ruling agent in deciding what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the Church.[2] Since the solemn declaration of Papal Infallibility by Vatican I on July 18, 1870, this power has been used only once ex cathedra: in 1950 when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith for Roman Catholics. Prior to the solemn definition of 1870, Pope Pius IX, with the support of the overwhelming majority of Roman Catholic bishops, had proclaimed Immaculate Conception an ex cathedra dogma in December 1854...

This is the article on Papal Infallibility from New Advent.

Another thing you might not be aware of is that while Catholics and Protestants might disagree on certain doctrinal issues, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't regard Protestants as being "outside the Church."

We have had - and still have - our share of Catholic bigots like the late Father Leonard Feeney who have tried to peddle this twaddle as something authentically "Catholic," but he was excommunicated "for persistent disobedience to legitimate Church authority."

One more thing you might not be aware of is that in so far as your Christology is orthodox - i.e. according to the Creeds of Chalcedon and Nicaea - and in so far as you do not sever Christ
(which is the "spirit of the antichrist"), you share in the infallible authority of the Church.


The Infallibility of the Church is the belief that the Holy Spirit will not allow the Church to err in its belief or teaching under certain circumstances. This belief is held by the Catholic Church, but is also held in certain degrees by the Eastern Orthodox churches, and some other Christian denominations.......

Moreover, your Baptisms are recognized by the Roman Catholic Church as valid - whether you are baptised by immersion or aspersion.

Your marriages are recognized by the Roman Catholic Church as valid.

And last but not least, although we may interpret the Bible differently in certain places and use different translations of the Old Testament, your belief in the inerrancy of the Bible in general is also valid.

I am as suspicious of the Charismatic Movement as your are because of its dangerous tendency to wander off the reservation into gnosticism.

I have just fairly recently been introduced to "Latter Rain" and "Manifest Sons of God."

It is my understanding that false ecumenism has been an element in the charismatic movement but I don't have time right now to get into the particulars.

Ralph Martin was becoming a problem for a while and was reined in by the Church. I think he cleaned up his act, but I have to check the facts.

I have a serious problem with the so-called "shepherding movement," which I think smacks of cult-like characteristics.

Gotta go.

Re:Frankly, I seen more unjustified faith in "infallibility" of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Rousas John Rushdoony, Bob Mumford, Dennis Peacock, et al than any pope would ever dream of suggesting accrued to him.

Thank you!
Thank you to all who responded to my question about the wnd article, interesting observations!

I do appreciate you taking the time to elucidate Catholic beliefs and their agreement with Protestantism. I believe one of the advantages for me not growing up with any particular denominational belief is that I’m not influenced – whether positively or negatively – by any tradition. I learn as I go using only the Bible as ultimate point of reference. With that said, I do not identify with any particular denomination even though I’ve gone to various denominational and non-denominational churches over the years; however, my beliefs certainly fall under Protestantism.

You wrote:

Another thing you might not be aware of is that while Catholics and Protestants might disagree on certain doctrinal issues, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't regard Protestants as being "outside the Church."

No, I wasn’t aware of that as I thought the RCC viewed its church as the ‘Church universal’ and, in view of this, all denominations should join theirs. This notion I support, at least partially, with this quote from the Pontiff from World Youth Day last year:

“The road of ecumenism ultimately points towards a common celebration of the Eucharist… we can be sure that a common Eucharist one day would only strengthen our resolve to love and serve one another in imitation of our Lord.”

As a Protestant I do not partake of the Eucharist (I do partake in Communion) as I do not believe in the doctrine of Transubstantiation. On this point we can agree to disagree.

The New Order of the Latter Rain / New Apostolic Reformation emphasizes experiential religion as much if not more so than its gnosticism. Perhaps the Catholic Charismatics believe the same?

Is 'shepherding' running in Catholic churches? It was said that it died out in Protestant/non-denominational churches; but, it seems to me that it was replaced with 'accountability partners.' I'm not saying that having another individual you can be accountable to is a bad thing -- I think it IS good to have someone you can trust to go to for counsel as you struggle with certain sin or to go to with questions about doctrine. However, some take it too far --like the idea that women in church need a male "covering." I see that as being all about 'control.'

Re: Your comment

As a Protestant I do not partake of the Eucharist (I do partake in Communion) as I do not believe in the doctrine of Transubstantiation. On this point we can agree to disagree.

I have absolutely no problem with this.

This is precisely the kind of honest acknowledgement and respect for one anothers differences that C.S. Lewis was talking about.

In fact, you are to be commended for NOT partaking of the Eucharist at a Catholic Mass, (unless given a dispensation from the local bishop in the event of a special circumstance like a wedding between a Catholic and a Protestant) because to do so would be giving a wrong signal in terms of the false ecumenism I was just talking about.

You would be pretending to agree where you do not agree, and vice versa if I were to take Communion in a Protestant Christian Church.

There are some Catholics and Protestants who simply take it upon themselves to disobey the local bishop and engage in "intercommunion" without the bishop's permission.

While it may be well intentioned, it is nevertheless just plain dishonest to let one's zeal outrun one's scruples by way of a pretense of full agreement where none actually exists.

C.S. Lewis once said that while the division of Christendom is a sin and a scandal, God is nevertheless able to bring forth a greater good out of it by using it to create greater opportunities for tolerance and charity than might have otherwise existed.

Perhaps this is one example of God's omnipotence in terms of His ability to "draw straight with crooked lines." :-)
you wrote: I hope all of you are attending church, praying and reading the Bible regularly.

Please explain, how exactly does one attend 'church'?
We are the church aren't we, Christ's body? Isn't that like saying, "did you go to/have (or do) family this weekend? I am in a family, all the time, sometimes with my brother, my mom, my dad, all of them-cousins, reunions of many more, or just me- but I never lose site of being part of the family- so whether I go to some building institution does not 'tag' me as a Christian...where two or more gather in my name there I am...I am confused by your post and terms.

Re: Your statement

I believe one of the advantages for me not growing up with any particular denominational belief is that I’m not influenced – whether positively or negatively – by any tradition.

I grew up a Catholic in a Protestant New England town.

I never went to Catholic school. I went to public school and was homeschooled by my mother in the Catholic faith in addition to attending Catechism classes at my parish.

I was only five when I began first grade. I was the "baby of the class."

My beloved first grade teacher was Protestant and she kind of took me under her wing.

Let me tell you, there is NO WAY that anyone was EVER going to convince me that my beloved Mrs. "B" was going to hell in a handbasket just because she didn't happen to be born Catholic.

LOL Little did I know that I was anticipating the teachings of Vatican II where such things would finally be clarified.

Re: Your comment

The New Order of the Latter Rain / New Apostolic Reformation emphasizes experiential religion as much if not more so than its gnosticism. Perhaps the Catholic Charismatics believe the same?

The way I learned it, gnosticism is "experiential religion" or subjective "private revelation" that seeks to trump the objective body of public divine revelation that was transmitted by Christ directly to Peter and the Apostles.

Even if, as a Protestant Christian, you do not acknowlesdge the authority of the Pope, you nevertheless acknowledge the authority of the Sacred Scriptures.

And the Sacred Scriptures must always take precedence over ANYONE claiming to have a "direct pipeline to God." Especially if their "revelations" contradict the Scriptures.
This just in on Drudge-

Swine flu jab link to killer nerve disease: Leaked letter reveals concern of neurologists over 25 deaths in America
By Jo Macfarlane
Last updated at 11:05 PM on 15th August 2009
Comments (0) Add to My Stories
Prevention: Is the swine flu jab safe?

A warning that the new swine flu jab is linked to a deadly nerve disease has been sent by the Government to senior neurologists in a confidential letter.
The letter from the Health Protection Agency, the official body that oversees public health, has been leaked to The Mail on Sunday, leading to demands to know why the information has not been given to the public before the vaccination of millions of people, including children, begins.

It tells the neurologists that they must be alert for an increase in a brain disorder called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), which could be triggered by the vaccine.
GBS attacks the lining of the nerves, causing paralysis and inability to breathe, and can be fatal.

The letter, sent to about 600 neurologists on July 29, is the first sign that there is concern at the highest levels that the vaccine itself could cause serious complications.
It refers to the use of a similar swine flu vaccine in the United States in 1976 when:


More people died from the vaccination than from swine flu.
500 cases of GBS were detected.
The vaccine may have increased the risk of contracting GBS by eight times.
The vaccine was withdrawn after just ten weeks when the link with GBS became clear.
The US Government was forced to pay out millions of dollars to those affected.
Concerns have already been raised that the new vaccine has not been sufficiently tested and that the effects, especially on children, are unknown.
It is being developed by pharmaceutical companies and will be given to about 13million people during the first wave of immunisation, expected to start in October.
Top priority will be given to everyone aged six months to 65 with an underlying health problem, pregnant women and health professionals.
The British Neurological Surveillance Unit (BNSU), part of the British Association of Neurologists, has been asked to monitor closely any cases of GBS as the vaccine is rolled out.
One senior neurologist said last night: ‘I would not have the swine
flu jab because of the GBS risk.’

There are concerns that there could be a repeat of what became known as the ‘1976 debacle’ in the US, where a swine flu vaccine killed 25 people – more than the virus itself.
A mass vaccination was given the go-ahead by President Gerald Ford because scientists believed that the swine flu strain was similar to the one responsible for the 1918-19 pandemic, which killed half a million Americans and 20million people worldwide.

Read more:

Yes, of course, I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God complete unto itself and the final authority on all spiritual matters.

I believe you know some (or perhaps most) of the following; but, I’m posting this for the benefit of all readers.

Gnosticism comes from the Greek “gnosis” meaning “knowledge.” Gnostics believe they have ‘hidden’ knowledge revealed only to the elite. New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) adherents believe in extra-biblical ‘divine revelation’ coming from their own ‘Prophets’ and ‘Apostles.’

This ‘new revelation’ trumps scripture; however, they usually will try to find bible passages that seem to fit these new ‘prophecies’ (known as eisogesis as opposed to exegesis). Of course, these will be taken out of context. That’s no matter as they usually ‘spiritualize’ biblical texts anyway.

They have their own website:

All it takes to be an ‘Apostle’ is to be recommended by more than one current member and pay the applicable annual membership dues. Their goal is to take over the ‘Church’ as the Apostles believe they have ultimate authority. For those who refuse to adhere to these extra-biblical revelations and their authority, ‘Joel’s Army’ will conquer them as per one of Rick Joyner’s ‘visions.’

As far as the ‘experiential religion’ aspect – the best way I can put this in a nutshell is that they ‘worship the Holy Spirit.’ [This is an obvious heresy as John 14:15 through 16:15 details the function of the Holy Spirit.] Most will talk of experiences such as: waves of bliss, uncontrollable laughter, uncontrollable sobbing, making animal noises, feeling heat/electricity, etc. These ecstatic experiences become like an addictive drug requiring more and more to satisfy.

These sorts of things have happened during previous ‘Christian revivals’ over the centuries. Today most of these experiences can be traced to a meeting at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (I don’t recall its former name; but, it was a Vineyard affiliated church) in 1994. This ‘move of the Holy Spirit’ also came to Pensacola, Florida in ’95 and to Lakeland, Florida last year with Todd Bentley. Check out this video:

In reality, these experiences are likely from the Eastern practice of ‘raising the kundalini serpent.’ Here’s a comparison of the Toronto-styled manifestations with kundalini:

They believe in a post-tribulation rapture in which Jesus comes back in Spirit only to inhabit the ‘body of Christ’ -- the ‘perfected’ manifest sons of God.

The doctrine is inherently anti-Semitic as they believe the ‘church’ has replaced Israel. This is known as replacement theology.

Latter Rainers talk about ‘catching the fire’ – as the above speaks. A Former friend of mine who was caught up in this – and tried to get me reeled in – first told me to read the latter part of Matthew 3:11:

…He (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

She referred to herself as ‘carrier of the flame’ and other such nonsense. Once again, I believe this ‘fire’ to be kundalini. ‘Fire’ in the scriptures is usually indicative of God’s judgment. Putting the above in context, we have:

He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Obviously this ‘fire’ is speaking of Hell – the final judgment.

Re:Your comment

These sorts of things have happened during previous ‘Christian revivals’ over the centuries. Today most of these experiences can be traced to a meeting at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship (I don’t recall its former name; but, it was a Vineyard affiliated church) in 1994.

I am willing to stand corrected if I am mistaken, but I have seen the following mentioned on this blog and it took place in 1994.


You are spot on concerning your explanation of gnosticism.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean above as I did state that Toronto was 1994. I realized after I posted that the Vineyard name came after -- is that what you're referring to?
Actually, memory served me right the first time. TACF was initially Toronto Airport Vineyard:

Actually I was suggesting that the former name of the meeting at the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship might be "Toronto Blessing." See the following.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

I know that Catholic Charismatic Ralph Martin had ties to Rick Joyner who is said to be involved with Toronto Blessing.

The term "Toronto Blessing" came from the supposed 'blessing' individuals recieved when going to TAV/TACF. Another name for it is "Father's Blessing." These names are on the video link above.
From Drudge on Saturday

Swine flu jab link to killer nerve disease: Leaked letter reveals concern of neurologists over 25 deaths in America
A warning that the new swine flu jab is linked to a deadly nerve disease has been sent by the Government to senior neurologists in a confidential letter.

Sorry anonymous, I always read from the bottom up and I didn't know you had posted the information already.


Thank you for the clarification. We are on the same page! :-)
Yer welcome! :-)
For an indepth report on the newage movement and the jews final solution read The Rainbow Swastika by Hannah Newman at
Constance said,
It is my understanding that "papal infallibility" is only believed to exist when a pope is speaking "ex cathedra" on matters of morals and doctrine.

Frankly, I seen more unjustified faith in "infallibility" of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Rousas John Rushdoony, Bob Mumford, Dennis Peacock, et al than any pope would ever dream of suggesting accrued to him.

Constance, on one hand you have demonstrated a lot of discernement by exposing the new age movement. At the same time you seem to be very sympathetic and even defensive of the catholic church, which full of idolatry and overtly unbiblical teachings. Sometimes it is difficult for me to get beyond this stark contradiction. Your rush to defend catholocism seems to confilict with your love of truth. I will always be puzzled by this.
The Rainbow is God's sign of His convenant NOT to destroy the earth again with a flood. It is not a symbol of sodomy or any other conspiracy. Love and Repentence ARE the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.
The people you think are running the country or the world for that matter are not...don't believe me? Listen to this audio and make a decision for yourself based on FACTS, not your mind. Your welcome..
Constance, on one hand you have demonstrated a lot of discernement by exposing the new age movement. At the same time you seem to be very sympathetic and even defensive of the catholic church, which full of idolatry and overtly unbiblical teachings.

Dear Anonymous,

Your criticism of Mrs. Cumbey in the light of your very unbiblical clinging to the man-made doctrine of "Sola Scriptura" is most puzzling.

You have divinized the invention of one disgruntled man, Martin Luther, and elevated it to the status of divine revelation.

THIS my friend is IDOLATRY!!
Going back to the discussion Jaclyn started a few days ago:

I saw part 2 of the Coral Ridge series on the UN Socialist agenda. In this part there was info on Muslim immigration/influence in Europe. One woman from the UK made a comment about how a particular Christian man was suspended for talking about his faith to a woman who claimed she had an incurable illness. The commentator noted how the situation would have been much different had the counselor been a Muslim.

In this same segment, there was some footage of protesting Muslims with one sign reading, "Behead Those Who Insult Islam" among other hate-filled ones.

Then, one of the commentators spoke about a film titled Fitna about radical Islam and its influence on the film's homeland of The Netherlands. Here's the only full-length version I could find on the net. Be forewarned, there is graphic content:

If my notes are correct (I scribbled on a notepad), at around 9:18 is a chart showing Muslim population of the Netherlands which was 944,000 as of 2004. In the whole of Europe the population is a whopping 54,000,000 as of 2004!
Interestingly, I was reading a bit of Constance's book A Planned Deception a bit ago and came across this:

...One half of "The Plan" is to infiltrate all segments of the opposition, weakening them from within. The other half concerns the disposition of remaining stubborn religious orthodoxies who are unmoved by the stylish infiltration [of the "New Agers"]...

Succinctly, the remaining orthodox will be pitted off against the remaining orthodox of the other target groups.
[from the chapter The Protocols of Zion pp 90-91]

Since Islam is the only religion of the three orthodox religions that is openly violent to the others (Judaism and Christianity), then it makes sense that Muslims will be allowed to infiltrate Judeo-Christian countries and the powers that be will give them privileges the others don't enjoy in order to subjugate them.
To anonymous 8:58

Have you read the people I cited to know upon which my criticism was based? Maybe if you were acquainted with those works your feelings might be even stronger than mine.

I have little patience with the false gospels of:





Quarreling over differences in belief and religious practice among believers in Jesus Christ was well covered by the Apostle Paul in Romans Chapter 14 as I recall it. Hope that is correct. My dog is on my lap bobbing under my computer as I attempt to read and write here. I am calling it a night and going to bed. Finished Jayanti Tamm's book in preparation for Tuesday radio interview.

Witchcraft in the Whitehouse

"The Obama White House is abuzz with talk of witchcraft by first grandmother, 72-year-old Marian Robinson, who lives in the White House residence. A close friend of Michelle Obama says the president is furious at his mother-in-law after learning that she was practicing Santeria, an African spirit cult, in the White House....."
Bouncing off the previous post about the White House, I found this post
Obama And Allies Moving Against Religion

"Mid-level appointees in the Obama administration and some members of Congress are secretly pushing for a 5 percent limit on tax exemptions for contributions to religious organizations as a way to hike tax revenues amid a bloated deficit as well as "get back" at some churches which are believed to have sponsored anti-gay and pro-life activities....."


Gregg wrote (on the prior thread – 1:50 PM): I do not know much about Judaism as a practicing religion nor do I discredit it except for its rejection of Jesus Christ as Messiah.

That is just one of the differences. Judaism is about law AND faith; not just faith. Someone told me that R. Catholicism is also about law. But Judaism follows all the laws in the Torah most of which are for Jews alone; such as the Sabbath and the food laws. Gentiles are not to follow all 613 of these and they generally don’t.

Gentiles are to follow only the Noahite laws which are:
Do not blaspheme.
Do not commit idolatry.
Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not commit sexual immorality.
Do not eat the flesh of a living animal.
Set up a justice system to enforce the other six.

Greg requested: “--- please, please watch this video of a Jew discussing the Messiah.

I have been talking to Christian missionaries on line for over 15 years, Greg, including discussions with the Jews for Jesus founder and his successor. As Ecclesiastes said, “There is nothing new under the sun.” (Eccl. 1:9) There is no argument you can give me that I have not heard and to which I have not responded. But if you want a response to Jews for Jesus here is a good one:

Let me provide you with a couple of web sites of former Christian clergy/missionaries who have converted to Orthodox Judaism.

Former Methodist Pastor Asher Wade:

Former missionary Gavriel Sanders:

Greg wrote: “For expedience let us call this question on whether Jesus is Messiah Item 1, or (“I1”).”

You believe he is not just the Messiah but also God. As part of a trinity that may be OK for Gentiles but it is idolatry for Jews for whom the standard is higher.

Len said: ”While you are giving with one hand you are taking away with the other. Your view lacks the universality of Judaism as well as being a not very implicit condemnation of Judaism. Psalm 145:18 says that God is near to ALL who call on Him but your view contradicts the psalm. While we have no objection to Christianity for gentiles you are condemning Judaism for Jews.”

Greg wrote: “I am just learning more about the universality of Judaism lately, that the Jews believe it is a religion open to all.”

All religions are open to all. The unique characteristic of Judaism is that we do not require a person to be a Jew to earn heaven.

Greg wrote: “However, because Judaism does not accept I1 it no longer is viable for redemption of the soul.”

Judaism brought the world the concept of the Messiah. I believe in the coming of the Messiah with a perfect faith. The messianic prophecies are from the Jewish Scriptures. We do not accept I1 because Jesus did not fulfill those prophecies. None of the prophecies said that the Messiah would be divine.

Len said: ”You are the one who raised the topic. The Bible makes clear that Korah’s disobedience was to God; not just to Moses.”

Greg wrote: “What you do not understand yet is that Jesus is the God of Moses (see I1).

What YOU do not understand, Greg, is that your view would be news to Moses and is not supported by the Jewish Scriptures.


Gregg said: “--- every Christian minister agrees that Judaism’s fundamental problem is that of not heeding God’s commandment to heed the commandments of the Lord who is Jesus Christ (ref. I1).

Not true, Greg! There are many Christian clergy, both RC and Protestant, who accept a two-valid faith situation even as the prefer Christianity for themselves.

Jerry Falwell wrote: ”I do not accept the concept that the Church has come to replace the Jews and play their role in history. God has a separate, but mutually compatible, plan and purpose for both Israel and the Church. --- As a dispensationalist I do not believe that Christians are to replace the Jews. --- God is in the process of regathering the Jew to His promised land in fulfillment of biblical promises and prophecies. There is absolutely nothing in the Christian faith, whether [covenantal or dispensationalist] which would hinder in the least Jews and Christians from living peacefully together.” (“Jerry Falwell and the Jews,” by Merrill Simon, Pg. 37, 39-40)

I can agree with Falwell even if we disagree on the details of our respective roles and on God’s plan and purpose.

John Hagee, and many other Christian Zionists, have similar views notwithstanding their different road map. He believes that the Jews are still God’s chosen people. These views reject “replacement theology” and “represent the dominant strain of Christian thinking in America.” (Standing With Israel” by David Brog, Pg. 4-5).

Greg wrote: “Jesus, who IS God, the promised Messiah, on whom Moses commanded the Jews to believe saying: ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’” (Deut 18:15)

Muslims use the same quote:-) Maimonides responded to it 900 years ago when he wrote:

“It is obviously clear that the prophet alluded to here will not be a person who will produce a new law or found a new religion. --- [Moses] assured us that no other law remained in heaven that would subsequently be revealed, nor would there be another Divine dispensation as the verse, ‘It is not in heaven, (Deut. 30:12) implies. Scripture prohibits us from making anny amendments to the Torah or eliminating anything, for we read, ‘You shall not add thereto, noir diminish from it” (Deut. 13:1).We pledged and obligated ourselves to God to abide by His Torah; we, our children and our childrens’ children, until the end of time. --- Any prophet, therefore, no matter what his pedigree, --- is perfidious if he asserts that even only one of the Torah’s precepts is void, in view of Moses’ pronouncement, ‘to us and our children forever. Such a one we would declare a false prophet and we would execute him if we had jurisdiction. We would take no notice of the miracles he might perform --- as we are enjoined in the verse, ‘and the sign or wonder happened – you shall not hearken to the words of that prophet.” (Deut. 13:3)

Gregg wrote: “Any quick search of the Old Testament prophesies about Jesus will reveal several Scriptures of Messianic prophecy.

Yes: but Jesus fulfilled none of them. That is why you need a “second coming.”

Have a great week.

Christians would believe a Christian giving up Jesus is as big a form of apostasy as any other. Jesus told us 2,000 years ago: "I come in my father's name and ye receive me not. Another will come in his own name and him ye shall receive."

Re the Obama White House first Mother-in-Law allegations.

If this is true, I am greatly encouraged as to the President, his wife and THEIR faith.

Re: Joel Richarson's assertion that the Antichrist will be a Muslim Mahdi:

I really didn't make the point I wished to make. I do not believe in the Muslim Mahdi as Antichrist as I cannot see him being a 'man of peace' given radical Islam's bent towards violence to all who will not submit to Allah.

My point about Islam's penetration into Europe and the adoption of Sharia law in these countries is that we may begin to see beheadings even there eventually pursuant to Rev 20:4 as the Great Tribulation/wrath is underway. I say this in light of my post from 6:15pm regarding "The Plan" as outlined by Alice Bailey/Master DK with regarding to orthodox groups being pitted against one another. This, of course, will keep most away from the New Age/NWO threat.

Also, as YesNaSpanishTown said, I cannot see the 'idol' in Rev 13:14-15 originating from a Muslim.
See "Good Riddance to Javier Solana" by David Cronin in

Well written. It will be interesting to watch later developments, provided Javier really plans to go, which I presently doubt.

Constance Cumbey said... “Christians would believe a Christian giving up Jesus is as big a form of apostasy as any other. Jesus told us 2,000 years ago: ‘I come in my father's name and ye receive me not. Another will come in his own name and him ye shall receive.’”

Dear Constance,

I did not ask Christians to give up Jesus. All I am doing is explaining why Jews did/do not receive him. Recall that I called attention to the universality of Judaism:

“Psalm 145:18 says that God is near to ALL who call on Him ---." We have no objection to Christianity for gentiles. ---The unique characteristic of Judaism is that we do not require a person to be a Jew to earn heaven.

My pet peeve is the never-ending aggressive attempts to convert Jews. My position is defensive although sometimes the best defense is a good offence.

Peace and blessing,
I've read this blog for years and have not commented. Now that I'm commenting I will say that it is being loaded with apostates. may be smart enough to think you are making effective attacks against Christianity. Tell me why Israel is selling itself out. Tell me why it was exiled to Babylon. Tell me what the animal sacrifices meant and why they no longer apply if your belief in the Mosaic law is still intact and you still follow it. Why is there no physical temple for the nation of Israel? Where is this in prophesy? Where does prophesy state that you should suspend the law given to Moses because you have no temple for sacrifice? You cannot see through Scripture what Scripture pointed to from the beginning of time but you ridicule those who do see it and have believed. The Church started with Jews who saw and believed. I'm sure you view them as apostate Jews. Your intellect has blinded you to truth. I'm not trying to 'witness' to you. You have been blinded to truth and religion has become an intellectual exercise to you. I am not posting to tell you to believe, I am posting to tell you to stop attempting to deceive those who may not have the knowledge and understanding necessary not to be fooled by your intellectual enterprises.

Baal..if you're still around, you have professed to be a Christian at some point in your life. You have blasphemed and stand condemned. I'm not judging you myself. God gave us His Word to judge by. I would not want your eternity. I'm baffled at those who try to witness to you or who seem to desire communication with you. You stand condemned. Had you belonged to any church, you should have been cast out. If you weren't, shame on your church. I don't know whether repentance is an option for you at this point but you should certainly reconsider your eternity and ask for it.

As for the rest, professing Christians (some claiming to be pastors) are attacking others without cause.

Look at New Age religion if you want.

But stick your noses out your front door long enough to realize that, whether you practice Christianity or Judaism, you are quickly becoming illegal. Sexual depravity has reached a level in our society that the cycle of judgement is bound to repeat as it always has. You can't point to any one particular movement in society. Society has become a moral cesspool. I won't go into politics except to ask if anyone really knows whether our President has any record of any kind that anyone can confirm. It appears he does not. Nobody knows who the guy is, where he came from, when he was born, where he was schooled, who his parents are or who he is. I'm not saying he is antichrist like others seem to suggest...but look at who we elected!!!

And in these times, it's ultimately important that we mock and discredit one another and accept outright apostasy while studying one stem in a tangled vine of immorality. It isn't new age that will bring about the end. It is spiritual blindness and lack of a Word that saves.

Last, the plan of salvation offered by Christ was for Jews and Gentiles. He didn't state that He had two for each. Anyone who stands against the message of salvation through the blood sacrifice of Christ stands against the Gospel. He died once for all, not once for gentiles and once for Jews.

I won't reply to anyone as I have not for years. I simply hope that those who know the truth will abide it in and not be taken aside by some who are here to mislead you.


RE:"I won't reply to anyone as I have not for years. I simply hope that those who know the truth will abide it in and not be taken aside by some who are here to mislead you."

Don't do us any favors!

With regard to your self-righteous uncalled for comments about Len, if you had been reading the blog "for years" as you claim, then you would know that Len is not the one who started the debate.

In fact, if you had been reading this blog for the past few months, you would know that.

HOW DARE you or any other self-righteous, Pharisaical hypocrite try to make Len OR Dorothy feel like second class citizens on this blog just because they do not happen to be Christian.

Just because you lard your speech with the name of "Jesus" doesn't necessarily make your behavior "Christian."

In fact, even though Len is Jewish, he respects our Christian beliefs a lot more than many people here respect his Jewish beliefs.

I also think his behavior has been more Christian than many of the so-called "Christians" here!

No, Len has not started the debate. He is simply defending his beliefs against the attacks of obnoxious predatory proselytizers who - as you rightly said - couldn't even argue their way out of a paper bag let alone defend their own beliefs.

Len is NOT trying to deceive those "may not have the knowledge and understanding necessary not to be fooled by his intellectual enterprises."

He is trying to prevent the deception of fellow Jewish readers of this blog who may not have the knowledge and understanding necessary not to be fooled by YOUR intellectual enterprises (and that of your co-religionists) - some of whom fit the wickets of the Scriptural warning about "those who say they are Jews yet are not but are lying." Rev. 3:9

Former Congressman and House Majority Leader Dick Armey warns that the government is planning to exploit a hyped swine flu outbreak this fall in order to reinvigorate support behind its failing Obamacare agenda.

Armey is confident that the grass roots backlash against Obamacare will cause the plan to fail, but warns that the government has one last trick up its sleeve which it is preparing to pull in the next few months.

The former House leader told the Financial Times that wavering lawmakers in both parties might be won over by an engineered crisis that the Obama administration is planning to exploit.
To Unreformed:

I didn't address Dorothy. I enjoy her posts and she hasn't done anything to attack the foundations of Christianity or to mislead Christians personally through Scripture.

I promised not to comment any further but I must say, I expected a personal attack by someone like you.

I can't be Pharasaic because I'm not Jewish. I wasn't attempting to 'behave' as a Christian although I profess that I am. Christianity is not necessarily about behavior as you may imagine. And I'm nothing like Christ. However, He didn't hesitate to offend when false doctrine was presented.

As for my time on this blog, you do not know so you obviously can't determine whether I'm telling the truth about it or not. However, I would ask why I would lie about it. There are a few on here that know me and how long I've read your comments.

A word of caution: Be careful what you defend. In including Dorothy you left out Baal. Are you going to defend him too?

I am very careful about who and what I defend.

And I can say what I WON'T defend. YOUR ATTITUDE TO LEN which is anti-Semitic to the core!

You didn't have any scruples about personally attacking Len, did you?

But when somebody pushes back and gives people like you a taste of your own medicine, you suddenly crank into your phony
"persecuted martyr mode" and are the first ones to whine about the very "personal attacks" that you inflict on others.

As for Pharisaic, you don't have to be Jewish in order to be the type of Pharisee I am talking about - by way of imitation.

And a word of caution to you: You need to be very careful about giving scandal in terms making Christianity appear repulsive to those who might otherwise be attracted to it.

There IS that little passage in the Bible about millstones......


I don't recall attacking anything you've said. You voluntarily came to the defense of someone you don't know against someone you very obviously don't know making all kinds of accusations. You call me anti semite. I challenge you to name one thing I've said that falls into that category.

Any Jewish person on this blog will tell you that Christianity and Judaism are two different religions. If they disagree with Christ being Messiah, does that make them anti-Christian?

You have not made one valid point nor was your input requested.

As for my 'persecuted martyr mode' I have no idea where you came up with that idea. I'm not claiming persecution and I stand by all that I've said.

You're one of those people who come here to witness a good fight. If there isn't one, you are obviously willing to pick it. Go away. You're a pest.
There are many Christians who believe they know all about the religion of Judaism without ever having studied it. Then when Jews don't accept their interpretation of Judaism, they become antagonistic toward the Jews. In this growing era of antisemitism, it's something that concerned Jews need to respond to.

A now Messianic Jewish woman joined this blog about a year and a half ago. She says she was raised Catholic. She distorted Jewish teachings to fit in with her new religion, and as preaching was her business, she was very skilled and ran roughshod over any opposition with posts that seemed to have no end.

I'm not a religious scholar. I don't have Bible quotations at my fingertips. I asked Len to come to the blog because he is a Jewish scholar, though not by profession but by personal study. He came and was very informative about Judaism, correcting the woman's falsehoods.

The "spiritual" side of the New Age movement is very antisemitic and very anti-Catholic. During times like these it is important that Judaism is not distorted.

The woman was also very anti-Catholic. Fortunately Susanna was posting here and was able to contend with the woman's distortions of Catholicism.

It appears to me that you think Len has stepped on your toes, or some of your arguments on behalf of Christianity and you are offended. Well, now you know how we who are Jews can be offended in the same way.

Jews, Christians, and maybe even ordinary, everyday Muslims have the same enemy. We need to keep the focus on the enemy we have in common.

That enemy means to destroy our freedom to teach our children the religion we follow. That enemy is eating away at the moral values which a community lives by. That enemy substitutes idols like Mother Earth for the things we religiously support. That enemy is seducing our children into their camp. That enemy wants to see us fighting among ourselves while the grow in power. That enemy is tied to the occult idolatry of destructive religions. That enemy wants to substitute the government as the source of morality for the belief that God gave us the laws to live by.
We agree on this.

What we don't agree on is that there in only one way out. Judaism has faced he enemy throughout history many more times than Christians have. They've faced the enemy and survived.

Len isn't trying to convince anyone to follow Judaism. I'm not either. That's a personal decision based on where a person's faith is. If Len's thoughts make you work harder to support your presentation of your faith to others, maybe it's God's will that it needs to be done.

Thanks Unreformed for your support of others although they are not of your faith. It's very easy to support someone who thinks as a person does, but much harder to to understand a larger picture.


You are welcome, Dorothy.

Len is my friend. Whoever messes with my friend, messes with me.

Reformed, whose input was likewise unrequested, has called me a "pest."

LOL Considering the source, I consider being called a "pest" by someone of Reformed's ilk to be "high praise" indeed!!! A "badge of honor," even!!!
Well said, Dorothy!

To 4:29 p.m. Thanks for your well chosen, blunt, and honest words!

"By their fruit you will know them".

This not only pertains to the one who claims the presidency right now (and his family) but also this board.

Give it a rest!

Former US presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee said Tuesday there is no room for a Palestinian state "in the middle of the Jewish homeland" and that Israel should be able to build settlements wherever it wants.
In Support of Reformed post 4:29PM

I appreciate your stand for the truth.

I will say that until recently I read the scripture as only applying to Christians who will turn away from the truth of the Gospel, but now I see that it is much worse. All religions are going to turn away from the teachings they once held. In otherwords, in the name of tolerance, all "religious doctrines" will be held lightly. No dogma allowed or off with your head. All fundamentalists of ALL so called "faiths" will not be tolerated.

This does not mean that all fundamentalists should ban together to fight what is happening. God has told us what is coming, and Christians are to stand for the truth of the Gospel alone. To love their enemies and not try to do them any harm, but not to join with them in any way.

This seems to be the purpose of this blog. All working together to fight the NAW/NWO.

All people must chose to believe or reject the Gospel which is as follows from

1 Corinthians 15

1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

The gospel declares that God took on human flesh, was crucified, dead, buried and was resurrected because God accepted His sacrifice for sin.

All men are called to respond. To accept or reject this truth.

Acts 17
30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

How will Christ judge? By the Word He spoke which is recorded in the Bible for us.

John 12

47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Romans 14:1 Who are you to judge
the servant of another? To his own
master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Who will stand? Only the Christian
who has put his faith in the
righteousness of Christ.

Praying that those with ears to hear will repent of trying to please God in their own way and put their faith in the merciful Lord Jesus Christ.
An interesting point to ponder, Jesus Christ is the only religious leader who was prophesied to come whose life fulfilled the Scriptures that were written about Him,though their complete fulfillment is yet future. Other religions like the muslims have copied this, but their Messiah has not come and when and if he does, he will be a devil.
"Who will stand? Only the Christian
who has put his faith in the
righteousness of Christ."

Could you please explain this. I have no idea what it means.

PHILADELPHIA — The Army plans to require that all 1.1 million of its soldiers take intensive training in emotional resiliency, military officials say.

The training, the first of its kind in the military, is meant to improve performance in combat and head off the mental health problems, including depression, post-traumatic stress disorder and suicide, that plague about one-fifth of troops returning from Afghanistan and Iraq.

Active-duty soldiers, reservists and members of the National Guard will receive the training, which will also be available to their family members and to civilian employees.

The new program is to be introduced at two bases in October and phased in gradually throughout the service, starting in basic training. It is modeled on techniques that have been tested mainly in middle schools.

Usually taught in weekly 90-minute classes, the methods seek to defuse or expose common habits of thinking and flawed beliefs that can lead to anger and frustration — for example, the tendency to assume the worst. (“My wife didn’t answer the phone; she must be with someone else.”)

The Army wants to train 1,500 sergeants by next summer to teach the techniques.

In an interview, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army’s chief of staff, said the $117 million program was an effort to transform a military culture that has generally considered talk of emotions to be so much hand-holding, a sign of weakness.

“I’m still not sure that our culture is ready to accept this,” General Casey said. “That’s what I worry about most.”

In an open exchange at an early training session here last week, General Casey asked a group of sergeants what they thought of the new training. Did it seem too touchy-feely?

“I believe so, sir,” said one, standing to address the general. He said a formal class would be a hard sell to a young private “who all he wants to do is hang out with his buddies and drink beer.”

But others disagreed, saying the program was desperately needed. And in the interview, General Casey said the mental effects of repeated deployments — rising suicide rates in the Army, mild traumatic brain injuries, post-traumatic stress — had convinced commanders “that we need a program that gives soldiers and their families better ways to cope.”

The general agreed to the interview after The New York Times learned of the program from Dr. Martin E. P. Seligman, chairman of the University of Pennsylvania Positive Psychology Center, who has been consulting with the Pentagon.

Let's hope Ramtha is not the inspiration for this program as he was for the Gregory May fiasco!

Global Warming ate my data

We've lost the numbers: CRU responds to FOIA requests

By Andrew Orlowski

Posted in Environment, 13th August 2009 14:35 GMT

"The world's source for global temperature record admits it's lost or destroyed all the original data that would allow a third party to construct a global temperature record. The destruction (or loss) of the data comes at a convenient time for the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in East Anglia - permitting it to snub FoIA requests to see the data...

Professor Phil Jones, the activist-scientist who maintains the data set, has cited various reasons for refusing to release the raw data. Most famously, Jones told an Australian climate scientist in 2004:

"Even if WMO agrees, I will still not pass on the data. We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it."
(more at the link)

To Anon 2:12 pm
"Who will stand? Only the Christian
who has put his faith in the
righteousness of Christ."

Could you please explain this. I have no idea what it means.
Luke 21:32-34

32“I tell you the truth, this
generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

If you have not obeyed Christ by putting your trust in His righeousness instead of your own, you will not be able to stand before Him and will be condemned.
Here is Dr. Martin Seligman's views about God in his own words.


If I were a soldier going overseas, I don't think inflicting Seligman's view of God on me "as an experiment" before I left would necessarily give me any spiritual comfort or make me feel any "happier" - unless I had a reason to wish that the traditional Judeo-Christian God did not exist.

The following interview was carried on Here is the last question of that interview.

I was reading your last chapter, and I sensed that here was a lifelong nonbeliever who seemed to be approaching some kind of view of God that he could accept. But then when I got there, I didn't quite understand what it is that you found. I was wondering if you could elucidate it a little.

It was a major change in my life, and a big discovery for me. And I would like to share it and say it in a way that's compelling for people who are secular. I have come to believe that there is a secular view that leads to God, and it leads to meaning because it's grounded outside yourself.
In most religions, God has four properties: He or She is the Creator of the universe, and also omnipotent, omniscient, and righteous.. The objections to the idea of a creator are legion. But if you accept the Big Bang theory of creation, you are left with a God who isn't a creator-but is omniscient, omnipotent, and righteous. The question is, does such a God exist? The answer would seem to be "Not now"-because you're basically stuck with the problem of why there is evil in the universe and the question of how there can be free will if God is omnipotent. But will there ever be such an entity? The answer is yes, in the longest of runs.

It more or less fell into place when I read Bob Wright's book NonZero. He describes life as a positive sum game in which complexity wins out. Evolution works strongly in favor of growth and complexity. In human history, we are going from knowledge to omniscience, from potence to omnipotence, from ethics and religion to righteousness..So, in my view, God comes at the end of this long process. This may not happen in our lifetimes or even in the lifetime of our species. But we can choose lives that are part of this pathway to God, lives that are meaningful and sacred. They're in the service of God coming at the end. That's the theology that I can accept.

Sounds like a variation of the Teilhardian "Omega Point" to me.
Anonymous 3:04
It is still unclear. Are you saying that an individual can ignore what is going on politically around him and trust that everything will turn out all right for the individual in the long run because they have faith in Jesus?

A lot of Christians who had faith in Jesus got slaughtered or burned to death. What does turning out all right mean under such circumstances?
Articles like this make people who think like this feel mainstream, marginalizing Orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Christians.
We Are All Hindus Now
By Lisa Miller | NEWSWEEK
Published Aug 15, 2009
From the magazine issue date
Aug 31, 2009

"America is not a Christian nation. We are, it is true, a nation founded by Christians, and according to a 2008 survey, 76 percent of us continue to identify as Christian (still, that's the lowest percentage in American history). Of course, we are not a Hindu—or Muslim, or Jewish, or Wiccan—nation, either. A million-plus Hindus live in the United States, a fraction of the billion who live on Earth. But recent poll data show that conceptually, at least, we are slowly becoming more like Hindus and less like traditional Christians in the ways we think about God, our selves, each other, and eternity.

The Rig Veda, the most ancient Hindu scripture, says this: "Truth is One, but the sages speak of it by many names." A Hindu believes there are many paths to God. Jesus is one way, the Qur'an is another, yoga practice is a third. None is better than any other; all are equal. The most traditional, conservative Christians have not been taught to think like this. They learn in Sunday school that their religion is true, and others are false. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me."

Americans are no longer buying it. According to a 2008 Pew Forum survey, 65 percent of us believe that "many religions can lead to eternal life"—including 37 percent of white evangelicals, the group most likely to believe that salvation is theirs alone. Also, the number of people who seek spiritual truth outside church is growing. Thirty percent of Americans call themselves "spiritual, not religious," according to a 2009 NEWSWEEK Poll, up from 24 percent in 2005. Stephen Prothero, religion professor at Boston University, has long framed the American propensity for "the divine-deli-cafeteria religion" as "very much in the spirit of Hinduism. You're not picking and choosing from different religions, because they're all the same," he says. "It isn't about orthodoxy. It's about whatever works. If going to yoga works, great—and if going to Catholic mass works, great. And if going to Catholic mass plus the yoga plus the Buddhist retreat works, that's great, too."

Then there's the question of what happens when you die. Christians traditionally believe that bodies and souls are sacred, that together they comprise the "self," and that at the end of time they will be reunited in the Resurrection. You need both, in other words, and you need them forever. Hindus believe no such thing. At death, the body burns on a pyre, while the spirit—where identity resides—escapes. In reincarnation, central to Hinduism, selves come back to earth again and again in different bodies. So here is another way in which Americans are becoming more Hindu: 24 percent of Americans say they believe in reincarnation, according to a 2008 Harris poll. So agnostic are we about the ultimate fates of our bodies that we're burning them—like Hindus—after death. More than a third of Americans now choose cremation, according to the Cremation Association of North America, up from 6 percent in 1975. "I do think the more spiritual role of religion tends to deemphasize some of the more starkly literal interpretations of the Resurrection," agrees Diana Eck, professor of comparative religion at Harvard. So let us all say "om." (end of article)

Put "diana eck" "new age" into a search engine to see her connection to the New Age movement.


Dear Constance,

I was not going to respond to those “well chosen, blunt and honest words,” but I will for your sake. The words may be blunt and honest but, far from being well chosen, they reveal total ignorance of the Bible as well as of Jewish history.

Babylonian Exile:

The second Temple was destroyed, and Judah (not Israel) was exiled to Babylon, because it had several evil kings who disobeyed the Torah with respect to idolatry and immorality and were beyond forgiveness; notably Manasseh, Jehoahaz, and Jehoiakim. The Bible has more than ample discussions of this exile. The Bible prophesies rebuilding of the Temple in the Messianic era.

Isaiah 13: 1 The harsh prophecy of Babylon which Isaiah son of Amoz prophesied. --- 11 And [God] will visit evil upon the earth, and upon the wicked their iniquity; and I will cut off the pride of the presumptuous, and the arrogance of the tyrants I will humble.

The Jewish Bible is believable specifically because we do not hide our dirty linen. The exile is discussed in detail not only in Isaiah 13 but also Ch. 14, in 2 Kings Chas. 24-25, Jeremiah’s Chas. 25-34 as well as his “Lamentations,” and the Book of Daniel. So to

But immediately after the exile (Ch. 14 – also in Ch. 48) Isaiah wrote of redemption; of Judah’s return from exile and punishment of Babylon:

Isaiah 14 1 For the Lord shall have mercy on Jacob and again choose Israel, and He shall place them on their soil, and the strangers shall accompany them and join the House of Jacob. 2 And peoples shall take them and bring them to their place, and the House of Israel shall inherit them on the soil of the Lord, for slaves and maidservants, and they shall be captors to their captors and rule over those who dominate over them.

“All of you, gather and hearken, who of them told these? The Lord loves him, who shall do His work in Babylon and [show] His arm [upon the] Chaldeans. ---Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, ‘The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob.’" (Is. 48:14, 20)

Animal Sacrifice:

Many are horrified at the thought of resuming them. Unless one is a vegetarian, however, sacrifices were not so horrible. Most of the sacrifices were eaten (Jer. 7:21). At least, then, people were aware that the food they were getting came from God. Nowadays, people get it in McDonalds or in shrink-wrap in a supermarket and never think twice about where the meat came from, let alone offer thanks for it. While it seems barbaric to shed blood, compare the sacrificial bloodshed with what people do now. The average person watches thousands of murders on television, and in the movies, during his lifetime; and for no purpose other than entertainment. At least, then, people recognized the bloodshed as a means of survival, and performed the sacrificial ritual as a rite of thanksgiving for their food as well as to draw closer to God for various reasons.

Sacrifices may be considered to be for the benefit NOT of God, who certainly doesn’t need them, but for the human. This is an analogous view to that of prayer. God doesn’t benefit when we testify that He is blessed; we do. The Hebrew word for prayer is, l’hit-palayl, which is in the reflexive form. Prayer is considered as an operation on *oneself*. As for many other commandments, prayer and sacrifice were partly for the purpose of increasing awareness in the individual. This comparison is significant because prayer has replaced sacrifice in Judaism, and most of the services are at the same time as, and in remembrance of, corresponding sacrificial services.

Sacrifice is also beneficial as an antidote to acquisitiveness, selfishness and self-centeredness. It is analogous to the commandment not to glean the corners of the field, but to leave it for the poor.


While the laws of sacrifice are given in the Torah, and sacrifice may someday be reinstituted, it had very limited use, even when practiced regularly. With very few exceptions (Lev. 5:1, 20-26), deliberate sins are excluded from the sphere of sacrifice; and in all cases, repentance and restitution of the wrong done must precede the sacrificial act.”

Moreover, sacrifice was restricted to places of God’s choosing. This was not always in the Temple, but there was no such place after its destruction. So Jews follow the Mosaic law exactly by not having sacrifice.

“These are the law and rules that you must carefully observe in the land that The Lord, God of your fathers, is giving you to possess --- . You must destroy all sites at which the nations, you are to dispossess, worship their gods ---. Do not worship The Lord your God in like manner, but look only to the site that The Lord, your God, will chose amidst all your tribes as His habitation, to establish His Name there. --- Take care not to sacrifice your burnt offerings in any place you like. --- You shall not act at all as we act here, every man as he pleases, because you have not yet come to the allotted haven that The Lord your God is giving you. When you cross the Jordan and settle in the land that The Lord your God is allotting you --- then you must bring everything that I command you to the site where The Lord your God will chose ---; your burnt offerings and other sacrifices ---. Take care not to sacrifice your burnt offerings in any place you like, but only in the place that The Lord will chose in one of your tribal territories (Deut.12:1-14).”

The land is located in present day Israel, but the site is in the Holy Temple. Instituting sacrifice anywhere else would therefore be a violation of the above commandment. Therefore, Jews presently follow the laws of sacrifice exactly.

The Bible’s View of Sacrifice:

Hosea prophesied that the Jews would be without the sacrificial system till the messianic age:

“The children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim. Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days. (Hos. 3:4-5)

There are many statements that indicate that God is fed up with sacrifices, as well as fasts, as many of them do not come with repentance or change of behavior. The latter are clearly considered more important.

Hosea 5:5-7, 6:6, 8: 13, 14:2,3

“Israel’s pride shall be humbled before his very eyes, as Israel and Ephraim fall because of their sin (and Judah falls with them). Then will they go with their sheep and cattle to seek The Lord but they will not find Him. He has cast them off [because] they have broken faith with The Lord; because they have begotten alien children.”

“I desire goodness, not sacrifice; obedience to God rather than burnt offerings. But they, to a man, have transgressed the Covenant.”

“When they present sacrifices to Me, It is but flesh for them to eat: The Lord has not accepted them. Behold, He remembers their iniquity, He will punish their sins: back to Egypt with them.”

“Return O Israel to The Lord, your God, for you have fallen because of your sin. Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to Him: ’Forgive all guilt and accept what is good. Instead of bulls, we will pay [the offering of] our lips.”

Isaiah 1:10-27, 57:7-11, 58:3-14

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to me. I’m sated with the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or of he goats. --- Bring no more vain offerings; they are incense of abomination to me. --- Your hands are full of blood. --- Wash yourselves and make yourselves clean; put away evil from before My eyes; stop doing evil and begin doing good. Seek justice; relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. --- Zion will be redeemed with justice and those that return to her with righteousness.”

In ancient times the custom of worship was to sacrifice animals, and even humans, in temples that contained certain images, to bow to the images and burn incense before them. For God to ask people to give up everything quickly would be contrary to man’s nature. God transferred the idolatrous services into services to Him; ie., to build Him a temple , to build an alter in His Name, to bring Him sacrifices, to burn incense to Him – “He who sacrifices to any god but The Lord shall be utterly destroyed. (Exod. 22:19)”

By this divine plan, idolatry was blotted out and the truly great principle of Judaism, the existence and unity of God, was firmly established. This result was obtained without confusing people by abolishing a service familiar to them.

This is similar to the biblical account of how, in the Exodus, God did not lead the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, though it was shorter, because the ensuing war would cause them to regret leaving Egypt. Instead, God led them through the wilderness. (Exod. 18:17) At the same time, another generation arose that was not used to slavery and degradation.

As the sacrificial system is not the main objective, while prayer repentance and charity are closer to what God wants, the Law was formulated accordingly. Even though sacrifices are offered in God’s Name we were commanded not to sacrifice in any place we choose, at any time we chose, or to build a temple wherever we chose, or permit any person to bring sacrifices. Only one temple has been authorized, “in the place The Lord shall choose” (Deut. 12:26). Sacrifices were forbidden anywhere else. (Ibid. Vs. 13), and members of one family only, the priestly family, were permitted to bring the offerings.

All these restrictions served to limit this kind of worship and keep it within bounds. But prayer can be offered by anyone almost everywhere at most times. Such is also true of wearing fringes, mezuzah, tefillin and similar kinds of service. Also, for this reason, the prophets declared sacrifices not very essential, and stated that God does not require them as much as other service. “Has The Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying [His] voice (1 Sam. 15:22)?” “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me (Is. 1:11)?” “For I did not speak to your fathers concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices, or commanded them, when I brought them out of Egypt. But this I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people (Jer. 7:22-23)’.”

Jeremiah said, in God’s Name, that the primary object of worship is to know God and no other god. (Lev. 26:12) The chief objectives of the Torah are to teach truths such as creation ex nihilo and foster good behavior such as elimination of injustice, and practice of kindness. Both the prophets and psalms rebuke the people when they forget the chief objectives of Judaism, and emphasize the secondary ritual practices. (Ps. 50:7-9).

Maimonides considers that the statutes have as a principle purpose the turning of people away from idolatry; a practice that included many irrational laws of its own. Many of the statutes required exactly the reverse of what the idolaters taught, the purpose being to remove all traces of idolatrous worship (Guide, Book 3, Ch. 30). Other practices, like sacrifice, were adapted to serve God rather than idols, as I noted above.

The point Maimonides was making is that all these statutes, in some less than obvious way, are for man's betterment; i.e., spreading knowledge of God and rejecting idolatry leads to man's betterment. Psalm 50:7-15 expresses this concept well viz a viz sacrifice.
Post from:Anonymous 3:04
It is still unclear. Are you saying that an individual can ignore what is going on politically around him and trust that everything will turn out all right for the individual in the long run because they have faith in Jesus?

A lot of Christians who had faith in Jesus got slaughtered or burned to death. What does turning out all right mean under such circumstances?

3:34 PM


I never said things would turn out all right, and yes we must be willing to die for the Truth and Revelation makes it clear that Christians will indeed die.

I never said to ignore what is going on around us, but we must not mistake being aware of the evils around us for thinking that we can stop what God has prophesied will happen.

God said that the Jews were going to be captured by the Babylonians and that they were to go into captivity. If they resisted, they would die.

We should be willing to give up our lives for the sake of the truth of the Gospel.

Standing before God is not talking neccessarily about our life here on earth, but when we give an account of our lives on earth before God. My only hope is in what Christ has done for me. All of my works apart from being done in faith and by the grace of God working through me will be destroyed by fire.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

The only question that will matter at the end of your life is what did you do with the truth about Jesus Christ.
To Anon 3:04

What is your background since you seem not hostile, but unsure about Christian doctrine?

Anon post at 4:31PM
was intended for Anon 3:34Pm
not 3:04PM
"So let us all say "om." (end of article)"
UM - No thanks :-)
Revelation Chapter 13

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

9 He who has an ear, let him hear.

10 If anyone is to go into captivity,

into captivity he will go.

If anyone is to be killedc with the sword,

with the sword he will be killed.

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

many Evangelicals share Len's interpretation that future Temple rites will be held in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and this will be a fulfillment of Book of Daniel prophecies. On the other hand, many Catholics I know believe equally fervently that the prophecies of the beast coming against their sacrifices and shutting them down for 3 1/2 years refer to the Catholic mass which uses the term "the host." I am extremely interested in your opinion and Susanna's opinions on this issue of interpretation.

2 hours and 13 minutes to air time on my interview with Jayanti Tamm on the Sri Chinmoy cult and her experiences with same.

The Lucis Trust people, Donald Keys, and so many others were deeply intertwined with Sri Chinmoy and it is still a powerful force in the New Age Movement.

I hadn't heard of the Catholic interpretation of Daniel 8:11-13. Interesting...
Dear Constance,

Re: On the other hand, many Catholics I know believe equally fervently that the prophecies of the beast coming against their sacrifices and shutting them down for 3 1/2 years refer to the Catholic mass which uses the term "the host." I am extremely interested in your opinion and Susanna's opinions on this issue of interpretation.

The visions of the Prophets tend to be obscure. Sometimes they refer to more than one era.

We Catholics believe that the prophecies in the book of Daniel
that mention the shutting down of the daily sacrifices refer to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which, traditionally, is celebrated daily whenever possible. For Catholics,
the Holy Mass is the perpetuation of the Sacrifice of Jesus in Calvary, but in an unbloody manner.

One reason why we believe that the Daniel prophecy refers to the Mass is because of the explicit reference to the "abomination of desolation" in the Gospel according to Matthew 24:15-18 where it reads:

"When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

then those in Judea must flee

a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house,

a person in the field must not return to get his cloak......


The "Abomination of Desolation" also refers to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes - the account of which is given in the Books of the Maccabees which are included in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament.

The Septuagint is the official Old Testament canon for the Roman and Orthodox Catholic Christian communions.

Perhaps the unique thing about the persecution under Antiochus is the fact that Judaism not only was being attacked from without, but was also being undermined from within by Jewish priests who had sold out to Antiochus and zealously collaborated with Antiochus in the attempted Hellenization (actually "paganization") of the Jewish people.

Insofar as he had assumed divine epithets (which no other Hellenistic King had done) Antiochus is a type of antichrist and in the end he was struck down by God and was eaten up of worms for his blasphemies.

While we believe the Mass will be suppressed, Antichrist himself will, according to St. Irenaeus, rule out of the Temple in Jerusalem and demand to be worshipped as God. According to the Bible antichrist will hold himself above all that is even called "god."

But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem;...

St. Irenaeus was a Church Father, the Bishop of Lyons and a martyr. He was a disciple of St. Polycarp who was also a martyr and Bishop of Smyrna. Polycarp knew the Apostles and was a disciple of St. John the Evangelist, the inspired author of the Fourth Gospel and the Book of Revelations. In fact, it is believed that St. John is alluding to the martyrdom of St. Polycarp in his Letter to the church at Smyrna in the Book of Revelations.

Because of the historical proximity of St. Irenaeus to Christ and the Apostles, it is believed that he received profound insights into the Bible - especially the prophetic books.

Irenaeus' disciple, St. Hippolytus wrote a treatise entitled "On Christ and Antichrist." Here it is in case you or anyone else here is interested in taking a look at it.


God bless you. I know why Len is here and he is brilliant. His strong argument brought about my concern for Christians because it's difficult not to second guess in light of some of his interpretations. It took me a while to post anything because he can be convincing. Joyce will have to stand for herself. I'd like to know what you say we should all know of her but I respect your position on that.

I'm not here to create enemies but when the power of disagreement is strong, it needs a strong voice. You believe that I know. Len is strong and you know he is.

Regardless, thanks for your input. I have appreciated you and learned a lot from you over the years. I can only read what you contribute but I see that you have a good and humble spirit.

I was afraid you'd get dragged into this by way of my comments regarding Len. That wasn't my intention. You may in fact notice that I never mentioned you in my original post. Unfortunately, your name was dragged into this by another poster with what I'm sure were good intentions.

I stand where I stand on the issue of religion and salvation. I'll tell you with no reservation that Christ is the Messiah and that He died for you and for me. You'll stand where you stand and you'll tell me you don't buy it but you've heard it all your life.

That's between you and God. To the best of my knowledge both of us are comfortable with our beliefs.

Take care Dorothy.

My name is Steve, by the way.
Regarding the “host” of Daniel 8:12 & 8:13:


the transliterated Hebrew word for ‘host’ is Tsaba’ defined as:

1. that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host
a. army, host
1. host (of organised army)
2. host (of angels)
3. of sun, moon, and stars
4. of whole creation
b. war, warfare, service, go out to war
c. service
In context, the most logical meaning is 1/a/1 “army: host (of organized army).” So, we have:

12 Because of rebellion, the host [army] of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host [army] that will be trampled underfoot?"
This coincides with Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:15-16:

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. NIV

Judea is southwest of Jerusalem – where the 3rd Temple will be. Clearly Jesus is speaking of the nation Israel and not another geographic area.

So, the next question is: What is “the abomination that causes desolation”? Going back to Daniel 8:13 above, “the rebellion that causes desolation” and 9:27:

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” NIV

There appears to be a correlation in Revelation 11:1-2:

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. NIV (Rev 11:2 also correlates to Rev 12:6 – the woman in 12:1-6 refers to the rebirth of the nation Israel in 1948. In addition, Rev 13:5 is a parallel passage)

This 42 months above represents the 1st half of Daniel’s ‘70th week’ from Dan 9:27. Then in Daniel 12:11:

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice [in the 3rd Temple] is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up [to ‘blaspheme and slander God’ (Rev 13:6) culminating in the ‘image of the beast’ that was ‘set up’ (Rev 13:14)], there will be 1,290 days. NIV

1290 = 1260 (42 months) + 30 days. The way I understand it the 1290 will be the end of Daniel’s ‘seven’ with an extra 30 days (at the beginning of the 2nd half of the ‘seven’ ((which would be the middle of the ‘seven’)) or at the end?) + another 45 days (Dan 12:12) presumably for the final battle of Armageddon(?).

I’m not sure if I got all this right; so, I’m quite open to correction.
To Constance (regarding your 5:47 PM post):

The "host" refers to "the Holy Eucharist" which is the most important part of every Catholic Mass.

Christ introduced the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper on the day before He was crucified and died for the sins of all mankind.

And while they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: 'Take ye, and eat. This is my body.' And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: 'Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins.' (Matthew 26: 26-28)

I have little time and will not be around for a couple of days. In view of the discussion on Daniel 8 let me provide the commentary of the great Jewish exegete, Rashi: Verse sections are in full quotes, other citations are in half quotes, and the rest is commentary. For your convenience I will add the full text of Chap. 8. This may take several messages.


Chapter 8
1 "In the third year" after the first vision that appeared to me in the beginning, i.e., the dream stated above (7:1), which appeared to him in the first year of Belshazzar. 2 "beside the river Ulai" beside the river named Ulai. 3 "and it had horns"" symbolizing the kingdom of Persia and Media. "and one was higher than the other" symbolizing the kingdom of Persia, which was greater than the kingdom of Media, for the kingdom of Media existed for only one year, as it says (9:1): 'In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus of the seed of Media,' and we learned in Seder Olam (ch. 28): 'We do not find any year ascribed to Media in the Holy Writ but this one only.' "and the higher one sprouted last" This symbolizes that the kingdom of Media will precede the kingdom of Persia. 5 "I was pondering" I was contemplating it. "a he goat and it did not touch the ground" He resembled one skipping in the air. "a conspicuous horn," a large horn visible to the eye. 7 "and it fought with it." That is an expression of bitter anger. 8 "an appearance of four" an appearance of four horns. 9 "And from one of them" and from one of these kingdoms. "emerged a...horn." The kingdom of Titus emerged from it. "small" A small and despised kingdom, as he calls it above one small horn, and that is in the manner of (Obad. 1:2): ' are very despised.' "and it became very great to the south" That is Egypt, which is to the south of the land of Israel. "and to the coveted land" The land of Israel, called àøõ äöáé, the coveted land [or the land of beauty] after the manner of (Jer. 3:19): “an inheritance of the beauty of hosts of nations.” 10 "until the host of heaven" They are Israel, who were compared to the stars. 11 "And until the Prince of the host" That is the Temple, which is the House of the Holy One, blessed be He, the Prince of the host. He blasphemed the Holy One, blessed be He. "and through him the daily sacrifice was removed" And through his troops and his armies, which he sent to Jerusalem, the daily sacrifice was abolished, for he sent there Nero Caesar, his general, as our Rabbis relate in Gittin (56a) and in Gorion.

Daniel 8 Rashi commentary

12 "And a time will be given for the daily sacrifice" A set time will be given for the daily sacrifice to be discontinued because of transgression. "And a time" time, like (Job 7:1): 'Is not man on earth for a limited time?' "and it will cast truth to the earth" It humbled the Torah of truth. 13 "one holy one" one of the angels. "and...said" that angel. "to the anonymous." This word is like two, and Jonathan ben Uziel translated it in the Book of Samuel (I 21: 3): 'covered and hidden,' like (Deut. 17:8): 'If a matter be hidden from you.' means a widower without a name, [i.e., bereft of a name] for he [the angel] did not explain to him what he was and what his name was. "to the anonymous one who was speaking" to the angel who was speaking and issuing decrees, viz. 'And a set time will be given for the daily sacrifice because of transgression.' How long will be the vision this [vision] which concerns the daily sacrifice, that it should be discontinued, and the silent abomination will be placed in its stead. The silent abomination is an idol worshipped by the pagans, which was like a mute stone, and so it is called in this Book in many places, as it says (12:11): 'And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed.' "mute", an expression of being mute and silenced, like (4:16): 'was bewildered for awhile;' (Ezek. 3:15): 'and I sat there seven days bewildered among them,' like one who is dumb. "permitting the Sanctuary and the host to be trampled" to make the base of the Sanctuary and the host of heaven, which he cast down to the earth, to be a trampling for his feet, as is stated above (verse 10): 'and it cast down to the ground some of the host and some of the stars.' "the Sanctuary and the host."

Daniel 8 Rashi commentary

14 "Until evening and morning, one thousand and three hundred" I saw an interpretation in the name of Rav Saadia Gaon for this matter, but it has already passed, and he interpreted further 'until evening and morning,' that evening about which it says (Zech. 14:7): 'and it shall come to pass that at eventide it shall be light,' and we are confident that our God’s word will stand forever; it will not be nullified. I say, however, that the erev (evening) and boker (morning) stated here are a gematria (numerology), and there is support for this matter for two reasons: 1) that this computation should coincide with the other computation at the end of the Book, and 2) that Gabriel said to Daniel later on in this chapter (verse 26): 'And the vision of the evening and the morning is true.' Now, if he had not hinted that the computation was doubtful, why did he repeat it to say that it was true? And the seer was commanded to close up and to seal the matter, and to him, too, the matter was revealed in a closed and sealed expression, but we will hope for the promise of our king for end after end, and when the end passes, it will be known that the expounder has erred in his interpretation, and the one who comes after him will search and expound in another manner. This can be interpreted [as follows]: namely, that erev boker has the numerical value of 574, (The Hebrew letters) ayin = 70; raysh = 200; bet = 2; bet = 2; kof = 100; raysh = 200. Added together, this equals 574. When added to 2,300, we have 2,874. "and the holy ones shall be exonerated" The iniquity of Israel shall be expiated to bring an end to the decrees of their being trodden upon and crumbled since they were exiled in their first exile to Egypt, until they will be redeemed and saved with a perpetual salvation by our king Messiah, and this computation terminates at the end of 1,290 years from the day the daily sacrifice was removed, and that is what is stated at the end of the Book (12:11): 'And from the time the daily sacrifice is removed, and the silent abomination placed, will be 1,290 years,' and no more, for our king Messiah will come and remove the silent abomination. The daily sacrifice was removed six years before the destruction of the Second Temple, and an image was set up in the Heichal. Now that was the seventeenth day of Tammuz, when Apostomos burned the Torah, put an end to the daily sacrifice, and set up an image in the Heichal, as we learned in [Talmud] Tractate Ta’anith (26b), but for the six years that I mentioned, I have no explicit proof, but there is proof that the daily sacrifice was abolished less than a complete shemittah(sabbatical) cycle before the destruction, for so did Daniel prophesy about Titus (9:27): '...and half the week of years [shemittah cycle] he will curtail sacrifice and meal-offering,' meaning that a part of the week of years before the destruction, sacrifices will be abolished.

Daniel 8 Rashi commentary

Vs. 14 continued

So it is explained below in this section. Let us return to the earlier matters, how the computation of 'evening and morning, two thousand and three hundred,' fits exactly with the time commencing from the descent to Egypt to terminate at the end of 1,290 years until the day that the daily sacrifice was abolished: 210 years they were in Egypt. 480 years transpired from the Exodus until the building of the Temple. 410 years the Temple existed. 70 years was the Babylonian exile. 420 years the Second Temple stood. 1,290 should be added until the end of days, totaling: 2,880. Subtract six years that the daily sacrifice was removed before the destruction, for Scripture counted 1,290 years only from the time that the daily sacrifice was removed. Here you have the computation of 'evening and morning, and 2,300' added to the computation. Fortunate is he who waits and reaches the end of days 45 years over 1,290 [years]. We may say that the king Messiah will come according to the first computation, and he will subsequently be concealed from them for forty- five years. Rabbi Elazar HaKalir established (in the concluding poem of the portion dealing with the (lunar) month of Nissan): in the foundation of his song: six weeks of years, totaling 42. We may say that the three years that did not total a week of years he did not count. And I found it so in Midrash Ruth that the king Messiah is destined to be concealed for forty-five years after he reveals himself, and proof is brought from these verses.

Daniel 8 Rashi commentary:

15 "that I sought understanding" I was longing that they should enable me to understand [the vision] from heaven. 16 "in the midst of the Ulai" in the midst of the river. and "he called" i.e., the man. "and said" to the angel, 'You, Gabriel.' "enable this one to understand the vision" explain the vision to this one. "this one" [a Hebrew] expression of esteem, as he called him one of desirable qualities. Wherever it says this it refers to a person of form, and from here they learned in the Aggadah: 'Isaac resembled his father in form and in likeness,' for he is called [such] in the section commencing, 'Now it came to pass when Isaac was old.' (Gen. 39:6): '...and Joseph was fair in form and fair in appearance.' This is the beauty enumerated among the five things that a father merits for his son. 17 "to the time of the end." For many days this vision will come about. 18 "I fell into a sound sleep" An expression of slumber and bewilderment. "and stood me up where I had been standing" Where my feet were standing. 19 "for it is the end of the time" for it is at the time of the end of many days. 20 "The kings of Media and Persia" The two horns represent two ruling nations, as I explained above. 21 "the first king" He is Alexander of Macedon who slew Darius, the son of Esther, as we find in the book of Josiphon (ch. 9). 22 "And the broken one" that you saw being broken. "in whose stead stood four" as is written in the narration of the dream above (verse 8), [there] are four kingdoms which will arise from that nation, for Alexander of Macedon divided his kingdom upon his death [into parts for] four youths, and Joseph called them four heads of a leopard in his book, and they were not the sons of the king. "but not with its strength" The last ones will not be as strong as the first king, but they will be weaker than him.

Daniel 8 Rashi commentary - conclusion:

23 "And at the end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have been destroyed" When the end arrives, and the wicked of Israel in the Second Temple will be finished, a brazen-faced person will rise; he is Titus. 24 "And his power will become strong" and not with might but with smooth talk, as is explained at the end of the Book (11:21). "and he will destroy wondrously" and with wonder upon wonder, he will destroy. "and he will prosper and accomplish" his desire. "and he will destroy the mighty" many nations. "and the people of the holy ones" Israel, who believe in the Torah. 25 "And through his intellect, he will cause the deceit in his hand to prosper" And because he is clever wherever he turns and [because] he will prosper, he will hold onto deceit with his hand. "and in his heart he will become proud," lit, he will grow larger. "and in tranquility he will destroy many" With guile and with smooth talk he will destroy many who dwell with him with a covenant and in peace. "and over the Prince of princes he will stand" He will speak blasphemously about Heaven. This is the meaning of the dream written above (verse 11): ['And until the Prince of the host it grew.'] "and without strength he will be broken" And without strength he will be broken, through a mosquito, the weakest of creatures, which entered his nose, as we learned in Tractate Gittin (56b). 26 "And the vision of the evening and the morning" which was said to you in the preceding dream, is true. "and you close up the vision" Do not explain it, but close it up in your heart, for it will come about in many days. 27 "became broken," an expression of calamity and breach; i.e., I was pained because of this trouble and I was depressed. "the king’s work" for I was appointed over the assignment of the work of the government of Belshazzar’s kingdom, for Nebuchadnezzar his father had appointed him, as is written in the beginning of the Book (2:48): '... and gave him dominion over all the capital cities of Babylon.' "and I was terrified about the vision." "but no one realized" that I was terrified because I restrained myself before the princes.
Daniel Ch 8 without commentary (Judaica Press):

1 In the third year of Balshazzar's kingdom, a vision appeared to me-I, Daniel-after what had appeared to me in the beginning. 2 And I saw in the vision, and it came to pass when I saw-and I was in Shushan the capital, which is in the province of Elam-and I saw in the vision that I was beside the river Ulai. 3 And I lifted my eyes, and I saw, and behold a ram was standing before the river, and it had horns, and the horns were high, and one was higher than the other, and the higher one sprouted last. 4 I saw the ram goring westward, northward, and southward, and no beasts could stand before it, and no one could save [anyone] from its hand, and it did according to its will, and it grew. 5 And I was pondering, and behold a he-goat came from the west over the surface of the entire earth, and it did not touch the ground, and the goat had a conspicuous horn between its eyes. 6 And it came to the horned ram that I saw standing before the river, and it ran toward it with the fury of its power. 7 And I saw it coming up to the ram, and it fought with it, and it struck the ram and broke both of its horns, and the ram had no strength to stand before it; so it cast it to the ground and trampled it, and there was no one to save the ram from its hand. 8 And the he-goat waxed exceedingly huge, and when it became strong, the great horn broke, and an appearance of four sprouted in its stead, to the four directions of the heavens. 9 And from one of them emerged a small horn, and it became very great to the south and to the east and to the coveted land. 10 And it grew until the host of heaven, and it cast down to the ground some of the host and of the stars and trampled them. 11 And until the Prince of the host it grew, and through him the daily sacrifice was removed, and the base of His Sanctuary was cast down. 12 And a time will be given for the daily sacrifice because of transgression, and it will cast truth to the earth, and it will do and prosper. 13 Then I heard one holy one speaking, and one holy one said to the anonymous one who was speaking, "How long will be the vision of the daily sacrifice and the mute abomination, permitting the Sanctuary and the host to be trampled?"

Daniel 8 without commentary - Conclusion:

14 And he said to me, "Until evening and morning, two thousand and three hundred, and the holy ones shall be exonerated." 15 Now it came to pass when I, Daniel, perceived that vision, that I sought understanding, and behold, there stood before me one who appeared like a man. 16 And I heard the voice of a man in the midst of the Ulai, and he called and said, "Gabriel, enable this one to understand the vision." 17 And he came beside the palace where I was standing, and when he came, I became frightened, and I fell upon my face. Then he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end." 18 Now, when he spoke to me, I fell into a sound sleep upon my face to the ground, and he touched me and stood me up where I had been standing. 19 And he said to me, "Behold I am letting you know what will be at the end of the fury, for it is the end of the time. 20 The ram that you saw, the one with the horns, represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the he-goat is the king of Greece, and the great horn that is between his eyes-that is the first king. 22 And the broken one, in whose stead stood four, represents four kingdoms [that] will rise from a nation, but not with its strength. 23 And at the end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have been destroyed, there will arise a brazen-faced king who understands riddles. 24 And his power will become strong, but not through his strength, and he will destroy wondrously, and he will prosper and accomplish, and he will destroy the mighty and the people of the holy ones. 25 And through his intellect, he will cause the deceit in his hand to prosper, and in his heart he will become proud, and in tranquility he will destroy many, and over the Prince of princes he will stand, and without strength he will be broken. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning that was said is true, and you close up the vision, which will be for many days." 27 And I, Daniel, became broken and ill for days, but I rose and did the king's work, and I was terrified about the vision, but no one realized it.
As non Catholics - and non Lutherans - the Lord's supper is celebrated in this thought and manner - in rememberance of the sacrafice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross -

1 Corinthians 11:24-26 (King James Version)

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
I should point out that I agree in part with Susanna's post:

"The visions of the Prophets tend to be obscure. Sometimes they refer to more than one era."

Yes, I agree that the visions of the Prophets are obscure; but, also, because their words are many times in apocalyptical language they are not easily understood. And, sometimes there are 'dual' prophecies.

"The "Abomination of Desolation" also refers to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes - the account of which is given in the Books of the Maccabees which are included in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament."

Apparently, Daniel 8:9-14 also are partially fulfilled in Antiochis IV Epiphanes.

"...Antiochus is a type of antichrist and in the end he was struck down by God and was eaten up of worms for his blasphemies."

And, I agree that Antiochus was a type of antichrist.

18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come... [1 John 2:18a NIV]

First, I agree with your interpretation of the word "host."
It is referring to a kind of army and not the consecrated "host" of the Catholic Mass.

Regarding your statement:

So, the next question is: What is “the abomination that causes desolation”? Going back to Daniel 8:13 above, “the rebellion that causes desolation” and 9:27:

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” NIV

From what I have been able to conclude, the "abomination that causes desolation" is none other than antichrist himself and possibly sacreligious sacrifices in his honor.

(Note that Antiochus sacrificed a pig in the Temple of Jerusalem in honor of Zeus. The antichrist may allow the sacrifice of unclean animals in his own honor - or even HUMAN SACRIFICE. Human sacrifices were one of the reasons for the Assyrian and Babylonian Captivities from which only Judah was allowed to return.)

This is because antichrist will hold himself "above all that is called God," and sit in the Temple in Jerusalem which is supposed to be rebuilt in the latter days.

This is not to criticize Judaism. The rebuilt Temple will be a legitimate Temple and it is very likely that the Jewish people will once again be offering THEIR daily sacrifices before the antichrist siezes the Temple.

We must not forget that antichrist will hold himself above ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD and will not allow worship of anything other than himself - whether we are talking about the authentic Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam or paganism.

So when the Daniel prophecy talks about the abolition of the "daily sacrifice," as a Catholic, I wouldn't reject the possibility that BOTH the Catholic Mass AND the Jewish sacrifices in the Temple of Jerusalem will be banned by the antichrist.

After studying the Scriptures and the writings of the Church Fathers, - especially St. Irenaeus' ADVERSUS HAERESES - it has become clear to me that the antichrist will emerge out of the false succession of gnostic heretics that has run parallel with the authentic Judeo-Christian tradition from the very beginning.
(Recall St. Paul "the mystery of iniquity is even now at work.")

If antichrist somehow "comes out of Judaism" he will be an APOSTATE Jew (not an authentic Jew) and if he does indeed emerge out of the Tribe of Dan as prophesied, it is the ultimate consequence of Dan's reprobation - the reason why mention of the tribe of Dan is omitted in Scripture. ( Recall the warnings in the Book of Revelations about "those who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying.")

At the time of the writing of the Book of Revelation, the two chief dangers to the Church were emperor worship and gnosticism. (Recall that Antiochus had blasphemously assumed divine epithets. His original name was Mithridates. His assumed name "Antiochus IV Epiphanes" means "Manifest God" "the Illustrious."

Notable events during the reign of Antiochus IV include his near-conquest of Egypt, which led to a confrontation that became an origin of the metaphorical phrase, "line in the sand" (see below), and the rebellion of the Jewish Maccabees.

He assumed divine epithets, which no other Hellenistic king had done, such as Theos Epiphanes (Greek: ΘΕΟΣ ΕΠΙΦΑΝΗΣ mean "God Manifest") and after his defeat of Egypt, Nikephoros (Greek: ΝΙΚΗΦΟΡΟΣ mean "Bearer of Victory")[2]. But his often eccentric behavior, capricious actions and even insanity led some of his contemporaries to call him Epimanes ("The Mad One"), a word play off of his title Epiphanes.[3][1]


"Christian gnosticism" is believed to have had its origins with the Samaritans who, while claiming to be "Jews" and descendants of the survivors of the Assyrian Captivity, formally broke off their ties with Judah during the reign of Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" the type of antichrist we have been discussing. They even voluntarily renamed their temple in honor of Zeus.......

Samaritan temple on Mount Gerizim
The precise date of the schism between Samaritans and Jews is unknown, but was certainly complete by the end of the 4th century BCE. Archaeological excavations at Mount Gerizim suggest that a Samaritan temple was built there c. 330 BCE.[10]

According to Samaritans,[11] it was on Mount Gerizim that Abraham offered Isaac in human sacrifice Genesis 22:2.

The Torah mentions the place where God shall choose to establish His name (Deut 12:5), and Judaism takes this to refer to Jerusalem. However, the Samaritan text speaks of the place where God has chosen to establish His name, and Samaritans identify it as Mount Gerizim, making it the focus of their spiritual values.

The legitimacy of the Samaritan temple was attacked by Jewish scholars including Andronicus ben Meshullam.

In the Christian bible, the Gospel of John relates an encounter between a Samaritan woman and Jesus in which she asserts that the mountain was the center of their worship John 4:20.

[edit] Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Hellenization
In the 2nd century BCE a particularly bitter series of events eventually led to a revolution of the Israelites against their Greek oppressors.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes was on the throne of the Seleucid Empire from 175 to 163 BCE. His determined policy was to Hellenize his entire kingdom and standardize religious observance. According to 1 Maccabees 1:41-50 he proclaimed himself the incarnation of the Greek god Zeus and mandated death to anyone who refused to worship him. A major obstacle to his ambition was the fidelity of the Jews to their historic religion and their refusal to allow their homeland to be defiled.

The universal peril led the Samaritans, eager for safety, to repudiate all connection and kinship with the Jews. The request was granted. This was put forth as the final breach between the two groups, being alleged at a much later date in the Christian bible (John 4:9), "For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans."[12]

Several centuries before the Common Era, the Samaritans had built their own temple on Mt. Gerizim to rival the Temple in Jerusalem. Here, they offered sacrifices according to the Mosaic code. Anderson notes that during the reign of Antiochus IV (175–164 BCE):[13]

“ the Samaritan temple was renamed either Zeus Hellenios (willingly by the Samaritans according to Josephus or, more likely, Zeus Xenios, (unwillingly in accord with 2 Macc. 6:2) Bromiley, 4.304). ”

Josephus Book 12, Chapter 5 quotes the Samaritans as saying:

“ We therefore beseech thee, our benefactor and saviour, to give order to Apolonius, the governor of this part of the country, and to Nicanor, the procurator of thy affairs, to give us no disturbances, nor to lay to our charge what the Jews are accused for, since we are aliens from their nation and from their customs, but let our temple which at present hath no name at all, be named the Temple of Jupiter Hellenius. ”
“ Shortly afterwards, the Greek king sent Gerontes the Athenian to force the Jews of Israel to violate their ancestral customs and live no longer by the laws of God; and to profane the Temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus, and the one on Mount Gerizim to Zeus, Patron of Strangers, as the inhabitants of the latter place had requested.—II Maccabees 6:1–2 ”

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