Wednesday, July 09, 2008


July 17, 2008 UPDATE:  I have discovered that Lucis Trust lists the Institute of Noetic Sciences, co-founded and for many years headed by Paul N. Temple as part of the "NEW GROUP OF WORLD SERVERS."  You can find it for yourself by clicking here.

July 13, 2008: UPDATE: Farmer (Bjorn Freiberg) and Joyce supplied me with information about a Princeton University based "Global Consciousness Project." Reading the preliminary material on the link they supplied, I noticed remarkable similarities to old publications by Barbara Marx Hubbard about a "Planetary Smile." I suspected the Institute of Noetic Sciences was lurking somewhere even though Princeton is East Coast and IONS is West Coast. Following the links, here's what I found:

The budget for the Global Consciousness Project is for
equipment and running expenses. You can make tax-deductible contributions to
help with the funding by sending a check to
the Institute of Noetic
Sciences, the not-for-profit organization under whose financial aegis we
Checks may be made out to IONS-GCP, earmarking the
donation for The Global Consciousness Project, and addressed to:

Institute of Noetic Sciences
Attention: Marilyn Schlitz
101 San
Antonio Road
Petaluma, CA 94952 USA
General Inquiries (707)
Please send GCP a note too, so we can add your name to our list. If
you prefer to remain anonymous, let us know."

I decided to see if perhaps the New Age variety of the Institute of Noetic Sciences, co-founded by long-time Fellowship Foundation activist, Paul N. Temple was separate and apart from the Luciferic initiation type of David Spangler and/or Benjamin Crème and his Maitreya.

I am saddened to tell you it is not. It could hardly be more open and blatant. Here is a literal antichrist special from the latest IONS newsletter:

Saturday night's banquet speaker will be Wayne Peterson a recently retired
career US Diplomat who served the United States for 32 years. For the last 17
years of his career, Mr. Peterson directed the Fulbright Scholarship Program,
based in Washington, DC, but which is administered though US embassies
throughout the world.

Mr. Peterson started his international
service in the Peace Corps, where he founded the extremely successful S.O.S
program in Brazil, a privately funded venture which provided aid to the very
poorest citizens of that country. Melvin Laird, who later became Secretary of
Defense under Richard M. Nixon, was a direct supporter of Mr. Peterson's

At the end of his Peace Corps tour of duty, Peterson was
approached by the American ambassador in Brazil, who asked him to become a
career diplomat and to serve in the embassy in Rio de Janeiro. Mr. Peterson
passed the qualifying examinations and was accepted into the U.S. Foreign
Service before his Peace Corps term was over. For the next 13 years, he served
in various diplomatic capacities in Latin America, Southeast Asia and, finally,

In addition to being a retired US Diplomat of distinction,
Mr. Peterson is also a very spiritually evolved human being. He has led
Transmission Meditation groups for many years and is the author of the book,
"Extraordinary Times, Extraordinary Beings", in which Mr. Peterson describes his
direct encounters with spiritual masters such asSathya Sai Baba, and Maitreya, a
spirit being working to help humanity evolve. His rich life experiences as well
as his personal exploration of his own past lives promises to provide a very
fascinating talk.

Res ipsa loquitur: The thing speaks for itself! Stay tuned!


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Constance Cumbey said...

The significance of this is that obviously pressure to keep word of the New Age Movement and its deep ramifcations were generated in large part by the Fellowship Foundation also d/b/a International Foundation / aka "The Family" of Abraham Vereide/Doug Coe. It is becoming increasingly apparent that IONS Co-founder Paul N. Temple, a member of the Fellowship's inner core since 1944 (he would have only been 21 years old that year) has been aggressively pushing the entire New Age agenda and that perhaps out of fear of losing his money or perhaps out of their own hidden conviction, worked to suppress information. This is proof positive that Paul Temple's organization is actively on board on an agenda to promote a "Christ" who is NOT -- neither Jesus nor Christ, but an antichrist impostor!


Anonymous said...

That's pretty amazing to have someone in that position with such blatant connections to New Age. It looks like Alice's plan to "externalize the hierarchy" is going into fast gear. I've looked at Noetic Science's site in the past, but some how did not pay special attention to what they are offering to young people:

They are using MySpace to appeal to the media savvy of the younger generation:

Here's something on Wayne too:

Here's an excerpt from the book. Very interesting in light of some of our conversations on your last blog:

Read the first paragraph about his Marian appearance.


Anonymous said...


Is the "Wayne Peterson" event you linked to on the Catholic Church's list of approved apparitions?

I looked and couldn't find it!

Looks like "Private Revelation" to me and undoubtedly demonic. This is "interesting" only insofar as it provides YOU another opportunity to spread more disinformation about the Roman Catholic Church.

Let us know when the "Wayne Peterson" apparition receives approval and can then be spoken of in the same breath as Fatima, Knock, Lourdes, Marie Julie Jahenny, Faustina Kowalska etc.

Anonymous said...

Peterson has a link to Krishnamuti, and from a search I found a link on Jerusalem Academy's site:

Page 11

"Simultaneously we can witness a powerful movement of spiritual educators in the East, particularly in India, which envisioned education as the most powerful tool to bring about a change in Indian Society on the traditional grounds of Self- or God-Realization. We have names like Rabindranath Tagore, Sri Aurobindo and Paramahansa Yogananda each of whom founded schools, which remind us much of the educational principles of Platonic Greece.
While some advocates claim that views central to holistic education are not new but are, in fact, timeless and originate in the sense of wholeness in humanity’s religious impetus, others claim inspiration from Rousseau, Emerson, Pestalozzi, Friedrich Wilhelm August Froebel, and more recently Krishnamurti, Steiner, Montessori, Paul Tillich, Carl Gustav Jung, Maslow, Rogers, Paul Goodman, John Holt, Ivan Illich, Paulo Freire. Still others feel that the views central to holistic education are the result of a cultural paradigm shift that began in the 1960’s. We also have a number of respected scientists such as David Bohm, David Peat, Karl Pribram, Ilya Prigogine, Theodore Roszak, Fritjof Capra, Charlene Spretnak, Ken Wilber who meet this view on the basis of modern Field and Systems Theory.
What is clear is that the values and the vision of humanity in the holistic education movement and which it promotes are getting increasingly popular."

What is clear to me, is that we need to be really aware of what the young people are being taught, since they are the most vulnerable. This fits with the AoC's agenda, URI has an agenda to indoctrinate kids. In order to make the "quantum shift" the youth have to be introduced to these ideas, so that will be the focus.

One more quote from page 15 of Jerusalem Academy about Krishnamurti, who Peterson has a link for on his site:

"Another educator of world reputation is Jiddu Krishnamurti. What he describes in his books and lectures as ‘another kind of learning’ was what he felt should be the principal concern of education to be an activity that is fundamentally spiritual. This profound and life-transforming learning is certainly meant to be the focus of the schools he founded, and this is in perfect accord with what he stated in the days of their start as his central
intention in life, “I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing; to set man free.”
For this Krishnamurti started schools, and for this reason only. He never did waver from his wish for people to have a constant movement of learning, which is non-mechanical, a life of freedom, love, and truth.
We read the words of the young seventeen Krishnamurti who writes, “If the unity of life and the oneness of its purpose could be clearly taught to the young in schools, how much brighter would be our hopes for the future!”
Forty-three years later he writes, “If one becomes aware that there can be peace and harmony for man only through right education, then one will naturally give one’s whole life and interest to it.” And that is exactly what he did.
Reflecting these simple statements they seem to be rather modern – but certainly accurate and indispensable. Now the more recent approaches towards holistic education were mainly inspired by humanistic and transpersonal psychology as well as Eastern Wisdom Traditions like Yoga, Zen-Buddhism, Sufism and Vedanta. Influential personalities were Paul Tillich, Carl Gustav Jung, Abraham Harold Maslow, Carl Ransom Rogers, Paul Goodman, John Holt, Ivan Illich and Roberto Assagiogli. There thinking had mainly impact on the educational method, pedagogy".

I think we need to be deeply concerned and aware of how all of this is affecting the younger generations being educated in our schools.


Anonymous said...

To anonymous,

For me the RCC stamp of approval on Lourdes or Knock or whatever, is not of particular interest, no more than their canonization of saints, (of which the Bible says in Yeshua we are all saints), based on 3 so-called miracles. I do believe God can do miracles, but I do not believe that these Marian apparitions are from God, no more than I think alien abductions are from God.

I personally find these visions interesting and believe along with other visions they can and will lead to deception.


Anonymous said...

Benjamin Creme evidently finds them of interest too:

I put them in the same category as stigmata:

You will notice Catherine Emmerich in this article. See Farmers discussion of this on his most recent blog, and the "Passion of Christ" the Mel Gibson propaganda piece. Here's a little about her:

By the way, I do believe God is capable of miracles, but I do not believe these are of Him.


Anonymous said...

The Catholic Church requires belief in the Nicene Creed and the Eucharist. There is absolutely no requirement that one believe a single one of the apparitions or say as much as a single rosary. The Catholics HONOR Mary -- they do not worship her. That is why they lay bouquets to her, but genuflect only to God!

Anonymous said...

The only person on this blog who is "leading us to deception" is Joyce and her diatribes of disinformation!!!

Anonymous said...

Well, if you personally feel that way Joyce, it must be true. After all YOU are an infallible interpreter of God's Word!

If someone disagrees with you, it must be because they aren't blessed to know Yeshua like you are!

Anonymous said...

Constance's second book is titled Planned Deception. Much New Age writing is that, leading sceptical readers to question their original beliefs while at the same time making them feel comfortable with accepting NA ones. In addition, we are conditioned to believe others are telling the truth until someone proves they aren't telling the truth. Even then readers may give a writer the benefit of the doubt.

The feminist movement used this process.

1. Ignoring why "he" is used, they said God is neither male nor female.

2. God is all things so he must have a male and female side.

3. Women can relate to the female side of God better than the male side.

4. So prayers and rituals must be developed to make this possible.

5. Goddess is only a symbolic term so it is acceptable.

6. Wicca or witchcraft are methods of doing the same thing so they are acceptable practices.

7. Isn't it wonderful how we can identify with the women, past and present, who practice(d) witchcraft.

8. Now can you see how condemning them was one great big misunderstanding.

The planting of books on worshipping Mary are meant to confuse the innocent, leading them to accept New Ager spirituality pushers as kindred souls. Why even believe that Peterson had some sort of revelation. Because he said so?

Anonymous said...

Should have signed it..

Anonymous said...

Hi Constance and Dorothy,

I don't know what is "appearing" to Wayne Peterson. But I can tell you one ain't Mary!

Looks like these New Age critters might be trying to deploy bogus Marian apparitions in the service of their own New Age agenda.

Fortunately, since mystical phenomena such as Marian apparitions are regarded as "Private Revelations" I don't even have to believe in the ones that the Catholic Church approves of. That includes Fatima.

However, there are plenty of "apparition chasers" in the Catholic community.....many of whom are allowing these "private revelations" to trump the Roman Catholic Rule of Faith which is Scripture and gnostics did in the past and still do.

One recent example of this is the Army of Mary which I have mentioned before.

Another is Julia Kim of Naju South Korea who has also been fairly recently excommunicated.

If I am keeping Julia Kim in my crosshairs, it is out of a concern that she might hook up with people like her countryman Sun Myung Moon and/or excommunicated Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo.

In any case, the following material on the so-called "appearances" of Maitreya is instructive. There are even some photos:

It is claimed that Maitreya has made many appearances since his first sudden appearance in June 1988 at a prayer meeting in Nairobi, Kenya, with a supposed 19 appearances in 2001 alone.
“On 11 June 1988, a man suddenly appeared before a vast crowd in Nairobi, Kenya, gathered to witness healing prayers. Instantly recognizing the tall, white-robed figure as "Jesus Christ," the crowds fell down overcome with emotion. The tall figure of a barefooted white-robed and bearded man appeared from nowhere and stood in the middle of the crowd. He was walking slowly towards the new church building away from the tent. Mary walked with him, side by side. I stared at the stranger without blinking. Strange, sporadic light wafted on top of his turbaned head, his feet and his entire body….In clear Swahili, which had no traces of accent, the strange man announced that the people of Kenya were blessed, especially those who had gathered at the venue that afternoon. "We are nearing the time for the reign of heaven. But before that I shall come back and bring a bucketful of blessings for all of you," the man said” more by clicking onto second link below.....

"It is much bigger than you think!"
Interview with Wayne S. Peterson by Barbara Simpson


This is a must watch video for anyone who hasn't already seen it. Peterson claims (one year ago) to have met "Maitreya."

Looks like Wayne Peterson has made it to the Rick Ross "hall of fame" as well.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of Sun Myung Moon, here is something interesting. Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it.

Anonymous said...

I posted this two threads back, but I'll repost it now:

Bejamin Creme will be busy this summer with lectures in:

London: 12 June, 10 July

NYC:Lecture: 26 July, 7:00 pm and a transmission meditation to follow

LA: Lecture: 2 August, 7:30 pm
and a transmission meditation to follow

SF: Lecture: 10 August, 2:00 pm and a transmission meditation to follow

and into the Autumn in Europe

Just in case anyone wants to see if he has anything new to say.


Anonymous said...


If Sola Scriptura is the only valid thing, then why should we listen to your denomination's interpretation of scripture anymore than say the Anglicans who rely on Sola Scriptura too. Truth does not contradict truth.

The Canon of the New Testament was sealed in the year 393 A.D. at the councils of Hippo and Carthage. So what did Christians do for almost 400 years before they had a Bible?
The burden of proof is on you, because your basing things on subjective opinions rather than objective evidence.


Anonymous said...

Great post Savvy.

Regarding Mr C and company and his upcoming speaking engagements:

I was warned several years ago:

1. Do not watch videos of him and his "man"

2. Do not perform research on him and his "man"

3. Do not go to his website

4. Do not look at pictures of his "man"

5. Do not say his "man's" name out loud.

This comes from people who know what they are talking about, and who have good reasons for giving this advice.

If you follow your curiousity here this man can "get into your head." It doesn't matter how strong your faith is. You just don't want to risk "opening that door."

Playing with a Ouija board is far more benign.

Anonymous said...


Deannie, I was not directing that previous post to you in a negative way. I was adding to it an important warning I was lucky to get several years ago.

Such information is hard to come by. I was grateful to be given this information which is why I have posted it here. It is for you and the others here to "take it or leave it."

Anonymous said...

The latest on Iran missile test....breaking story earlier this morning:

Iran test-fires missiles in Persian Gulf

Jul 9 11:52 AM US/Eastern
Associated Press Writer

Anonymous said...

Iran reportedly test-fires 9 missiles

July 9, 2008
Iran missile test ratchets up regional tensions

Defiant Iran angers US with missile test

Jul 9 08:11 AM US/Eastern

Pentagon plumbing Iran's missile tests for clues

Jul 9 10:26 AM US/Eastern
Associated Press Writer

Jul 9, 2008 16:43 | Updated Jul 9, 2008 17:20
Ahmadinejad: War threat is a 'joke'

Anonymous said...

To the anonymous poster/posters,
I don't see anywhere in the Bible where the Catholic Church is named or given authority over Marian visions. My measuring rod of truth is the written Word. If you want to criticize me for that then what can say...there is no response to this kind of accusation. I would like to point all of you to an excellent film that a dear friend lent me called "Messages from Heaven" . The producer is Eternal Productions and the number to order it for those who are interested is 1-877-370-7770

The website is

Maybe those of you who are being critical should take a look at the film and get back to me after you've seen it...


Anonymous said...

On another note...Iran was threatening Israel today with long-range missiles acquired from Russia. Ezekiel 38 would be a good place to begin searching to understand what the Bible says about this.


Anonymous said...

Didn't see your most recent post on the missiles..

Anonymous said...

Joyce, maybe you should stop using the Cumbey this website to push the anti-Catholic propaganda you are so fond of.

After you do that, get back to us....

Anonymous said...

Obama, McCain split on Iran's missile tests

Jul 9 11:11 AM US/Eastern

....Senator McCain issued a statement following the tests implicitly criticizing Obama's engagement strategy, which Republicans argue is naive and dangerous.

"Working with our European and regional allies is the best way to meet the threat posed by Iran, not unilateral concessions that undermine multilateral diplomacy," McCain said.

"Iran's most recent missile tests demonstrate again the dangers it poses to its neighbors and to the wider region, especially Israel," McCain said.

"Ballistic missile testing coupled with Iran's continued refusal to cease its nuclear activities should unite the international community in efforts to counter Iran's dangerous ambitions."

McCain also said the tests shows the United States needs effective missile defense "now and in the future," including the planned missile defense sites in the Czech Republic and Poland....

As of the first of this month, as far as I know, Poland has not fully ratified the Lisbon treaty yet.

If it were not for the possibility of being branded a "conspiracy theorist," one could almost wonder about the possibility of the missile tests being orchestrated for the purpose of terrorizing the "holdouts" into ratify the Lisbon Treaty.

Something along the lines of a Middle Eastern equivalent of the Reichstag Fire.

And speaking of Obama,here is something from the "WHAT NERVE! dept."

Merkel warns Obama not to use landmark for 'electioneering'

Jul 9 10:13 AM US/Eastern

Anonymous said...

Moon as Maitreya...that is so funny. What's the old guy now? 88years old? She probably thought she had a ready made audience with all of the Moonies running around who want to have a hot picure on of the old coot on their walls. He's vain enough to pay good money for the original.

I just wonder what's going to happen to his empire after he dies. For sure he isn't going to resurect. We hear a lot about the cult side of his empire, but I've never read much about who is running the empire, whether there is a board,, i.e., what's the administative end of everything. Nobody can take him to court for not being the Maitreya, but it will be intersting to see who keeps carrying on the money and manipulation operations.


Anonymous said...


I'm not offended and your warning is excellent advice! I live in one of these venues, but don't have the stomach to attend.



Anonymous said...


Check out the newsletter at Share International for many more appearances of Maitreya:

Scroll down to the letters to the editor.


Anonymous said...


THAT's the website I was warning about!!!

Anonymous said...

The warning about Creme reminded me of the Youtube video on Obama that I saw the other day. It is opposing him and his cult following, but it does so by reproducing the hypnotic effect being created by Obama's managers through posters, pictures, group manipulation, etc. The idea that Obama will accept the nomination in a stadium rather than at the convention center means the effect will be created that more than the Democrats look forward to is reign.

As readers here know, I'm not into antichrist speculation, but if you want to see the techniques that may be used to manipulate emotions, watch this youtube video. or


Anonymous said...


Wasn't that picture of "Moon-over-Maitreya" a gem? I came across it purely by chance.

Correct me if I am mistaken, but as I recall, he had a couple of sons (heirs apparent) who died. I don't know if he had any other sons who could take over.

Gee, Dorothy, do you think maybe THAT is why he has been sucking up to Kim Jong Il - so that HE can assume leadership of the "Moonbats" when Moon "ascends into heaven???"

Anonymous said...

Dear Savvy,
As for the canonization of the apostolic Scriptures, it's a pretty complex discussion for purposes of this forum. Safe to say, that the Catholic Church includes the Apocrypha as canon and Jews and Protestants don't. Even some of the "Church fathers" did not accept them.

All of Scripture was already in circulation in the First Century. Scholars agree on this. Several of the books were in dispute, including the Book of Hebrews, James and Jude to mention a few but were generally accepted well before the 4th Century.

Either the Apostles or someone in close proximity to them wrote all the Scriptures we have in the Bible today.

Without engaging in complex theological discussions on this forum, I think it's fair to say that God is able to preserve His Word. Historical books are important and can be studied, but we should make the distinction between them and the inspired Word.

We should also recognize the influence of Greek philosophy and thought on people like Augustine who was deeply influence by Aristotle. Greek thinking played an important role in the development of the Church, whereas the Apostles were Hebrews. Hebrews, there is still a question of authorship, but it was written by a Hellenized Jew. While the Apostolic Scriptures were written in Greek ( although some dispute this..) the Apostles themselves were Jews, with the only possible exception being Luke, who was probably a God-fearer.

Daniel Gruber, a Messianic Jew, and a scholar, has written a very interesting book, which you can read the first few pages of online. If you like it, you can buy it and read the whole thing. It will give you a little different take on how things unfolded...

It's great to be savvy, but sometimes we can oversimplify things.


Anonymous said...

p.s. for future reference let's focus on Constance's subject. It really looks important. Sorry about the digression...

Anonymous said...




Just what we need here....someone to make the fur start flying....

Barack Obama: Iran is a great threat
US presidential candidate calls for tougher sanctions against Tehran after missile tests


I don't think the Czechs have ratified the Lisbon Treaty either:

"Russia warns over 'star wars' pact
Czechs to host radar but Poles want Patriot missiles, while Russians 'extremely upset'

Comment: Richard Weitz

Iran warns US it will retaliate if attacked

Wonder how the following will effect the accession of Turkey into the EU. I mean.....if they can't play nice with the other kids......

"Six dead in gun battle outside Istanbul's US consulate"

Interesting the things you find when you are looking for something else....

Abu Dhabi fund buys New York City's Chrysler building for $800m

Ah yes....HERE's what I was looking for.....MADE MY DAY!

US reopens $35bn air tanker deal

While Boeing has not been without sin, check out the following which was reported just this past April:

EADS probe finds insider dealing

While I do find it amusing to consider the idea of the French government helping to subsidise our defense budget, I know enough to be careful what I wish for. But one wish I do not regret....that little weasel Forgeard was arrested and is out on bail.

YIKES! Check this out. Is this the "piece de resistance" or what?

Furious French row over break-in

Supporters of French President Nicolas Sarkozy have reacted angrily to a statement by Socialist Segolene Royal linking him to a break-in at her flat.

In a TV interview on Tuesday, Ms Royal suggested that last week's burglary was connected to her recent criticism of "the Sarkozy clan's grip on France".

PM Francois Fillon said the Socialist ex-presidential candidate was "losing her self-control" and had no proof.

A spokesman for Mr Sarkozy's UMP party said Ms Royal had "blown a fuse". more....

Anonymous said...


Thanks for the link.

I think Constance has had Share International in her crosshairs since the 1980's.

I have read about Maitreya's alleged "apparitions" in other articles.

With regard to the "apparitions of the Madonna" reported in the article you linked me to, maybe some are worthy of belief, but I am more inclined to think that they are not. Maybe some are examples of Maitreya's reported "disguises" which I have also read about elsewhere.

My favorite is Maitreya in drag in New York City.

Anonymous said...

Joyce at 2:56
Thanks for the laugh. Your comment is as funny as it gets. If you can't control the threads one way, you will try another won't you.

Please read what the purpose of this blogspot it.


Anonymous said...

Missed the suggested header.

Joyce at 2:56
Thanks for the laugh. Your comment is as funny as it gets. If you can't control the threads one way, you will try another won't you.

Please read what the purpose of this blogspot it.


3:48 PM

Anonymous said...

Hey Dorothy,
Always glad to provide amusement for you!

Anonymous said...


I never said the Church Fathers wrote scripture, I said they held a council to seal the New Testament once and for all.

“If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” (but I thought the Bible was the sole foundation?)

St. Paul
1 Timothy 3:15

On the Old Testament Canon here are the writings of the Apostolic Fathers.

Of the Old Covenant: the five books of Moses--Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; one of Joshua the son of Nun, one of the Judges, one of Ruth, four of the Kings, two of the Chronicles, two of Ezra, one of Esther, one of Judith, three of the Maccabees, one of Job, one hundred and fifty psalms; three books of Solomon--Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; sixteen prophets. And besides these, take care that your young persons learn the Wisdom of the very learned Sirach." Apostolic Constitutions, 47:85 (A.D. 400).


Anonymous said...

Suzanne, showing my age I'd say that picture is a hoot.

As I said, I haven't seen the information but also I haven't tried tracking it down. If the operation is a cover for intelligence operatives and drug runners, I wonder if we will ever know who actually is running it.


Anonymous said...

Honey, I don't think you are here by accident.

Anonymous said...

I've been reading this blog for a while. Wanted just to say thank you to Joyce. Maybe I could also tell her "stay around" ! We do not hear very often people who stay firm in what the Bible teaches us.

Anonymous said...

A financier who was also a moneybag for the New Age movement has died. He was very important in funding programs to promote the link between science and religion.


Anonymous said...

Don't worry. Joyce has other reasons for staying here. If you want to hear voices that support religious beliefs, I'm sure you will find them among the millions of blogs and websites on the internet. You just may not hear their voices on blogs that are intended for other purposes. If you check your favorite recipe blog you'll see what I mean.


Anonymous said...


I must confess I don't know much about the Institute of Noetic Sciences so I did some homework on it and am sharing a few links here for the benefit of others who might also be a tad "clueless" about INS and other related New Age oriented organizations.

Please correct me if I wander too far off the reservation. :-)


INS earned itself a place in the QUACKWATCH hall of fame:


"....The Family has interlocking leadership with the New Age "Cultural Creative" Movement in the form of Paul N. Temple, a former Standard Oil executive who was also instrumental in founding the Institute of Noetic Sciences as well as the World Business Academy. In 1987, "The Family" co-sponsored a conference, "Bridging Through Christ" at the Goldlake New Age center near Boulder, Colorado. Barbara Marx Hubbard and Doug Coe co-chaired the event; David Spangler, Findhorn Community representatives, Conservative Baptist Seminary representatives including Vernon Grounds and Gordon Lewis participated. The catalyst appears to have been Paul N. Temple, who co-founded the Institute of Noetic Sciences and is a major funder of both IONS and The Family, through his "Three Swallows Foundation. Funding to "The Family" is indicated as to "International Foundation." The address of 133 C Street, SE is the mailing address for Doug Coe, which is the address given on the 990 IRS form of the Three Swallows Foundation......." ,,,read more...


Constance blogged about this on May 31. Here is the cached version with highlights to make it easier to find.

"TOTAL NUMBERS 1998 THROUGH 2006: $640,080 paid by Three Swallows Foundation to Institute of Noetic Sciences. $1,777,650 to "INTERNATIONAL FOUNDATION" which is the name under which "The Family" aka "Fellowship Foundation" aka "The Fellowship" aka "Ivanwald" does business. This explains why key evangelical leaders were so very anxious to silence my work on sounding alarms on the New Age Movement. When you consider this along with the vast sums given by Rev. Moon, much taken from 1982-through the present time now makes disturbing sense. May the Lord help us all! The figures were gleaned from the 990 forms filed by THREE SWALLOWS FOUNDATION. It appears that the New Age community obviously bought and owned this allegedly Christian operation. How much deeper does it go? ".....
....The answer is that they are among the recipients of funding from Three Swallows Foundation. What is Three Swallows Foundation? It is headed by Paul N. Temple. He is a long time activist with Doug Coe's Fellowship Foundation. He also is the very prominent co-founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences. Are these groups different? Or are they "outwardly different resonating core groups now blending and merging to do the 'one work' as Barbara Marx Hubbard reported in Spring, 2008.
Paul Temple's Three Swallows Foundation gave nearly a half million in grants in 2007 ($459,615 to be precise). Its declared worth per its 2006 IRS form was $3,755,861.00. These were among its recipients and some of the moneys they received from that source over the past few years: more....


Weren't you looking for data like this?

Doug Coe, The Fellowship, Hillary Clinton and Why You Should Care

"So, does it matter that Hillary Clinton has been deeply involved in the Fellowship and that Barack Obama and John McCain have been involved to a lesser extent?"

Anonymous said...

As I mentioned, I don't accept the Apocrypha...The Council of Nicea also decided to change God's calendar. For a short discussion, see this link:

By the 4th Century, the truth had already begun to be distorted. In fact Paul said it was happening much earlier than that:

2Th. 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

Antinomism, lawlessness, was already at work in Paul's day. The man of lawlessness will also make "alterations in the times and the law".

Dan. 7:25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

God called His appointed times the "moedim" His appointments to meet us, Shabbat, Pessah, HaBikkurim, Shavuot, Yom T'ruah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot. The Council of Nicea made sure to do away with any connection to the Jews. Here's one article explaining.

Hope that helps.

Anonymous said...

Better get to blogging as fast as we can; theological tennis anyone; never mind, Nancy Pelosi, may be seeking ways to censor congressional internet use. If that happens can we be far behind?
If this has been posted, please forgive.

Anonymous said...

More links:

Showing Faith in Discretion

The Fellowship, which sponsors the National Prayer Breakfast, quietly effects political change. It acts with the blessing of many in power.


Jesus plus nothing:
Undercover among America's secret theocrats

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
—Matthew 10:36

By Jeffrey Sharlet


August 29, 2007 News With Views

Hatfield's Realty Deals Come Under Scrutiny (August 27, 1991)


"Mitchell's interests include consciousness and paranormal phenomena. During the Apollo 14 flight he conducted private ESP experiments with his friends on Earth. In early 1973, he founded the nonprofit Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS) to conduct and sponsor research into areas that mainstream science has ignored, including consciousness research and psychic events.

As well as academic papers, Mitchell has written two books: Psychic Exploration: A Challenge for Science (ISBN 0-399-11342-8) and The Way of the Explorer (ISBN 1-57270-019-X). In The Way of the Explorer, Mitchell proposed a dyadic model of reality.

He is currently the Advisory Board Chairman of the Institute for Cooperation in Space, co-founded by Dr. Carol Rosin.

Mitchell has publicly expressed his opinions that he is "90 per cent sure that many of the thousands of unidentified flying objects, or UFOs, recorded since the 1940s, belong to visitors from other planets" and that UFOs have been the "subject of disinformation in order to deflect attention and to create confusion so the truth doesn't come out." In 2004 he told the St. Petersburg Times that a "cabal of insiders" inside the US Government were studying recovered alien bodies, and that this group had stopped briefing US Presidents after John F. Kennedy. He has said, that "We all know that UFOs are real, now the question is, where they come from."

Mitchell says that a teenage remote healer who lives in Vancouver and uses the pseudonym Adam Dreamhealer, helped heal him of kidney cancer at a distance. Mitchell said that while he never had a biopsy (the definitive test for cancer), "I had a sonogram and MRI that was consistent with renal carcinoma." Adam worked (distantly) on Mitchell from December of 2003 until June of 2004, when the "irregularity was gone and we haven't seen it since."

Today, Edgar Mitchell is also a distinguished member of INREES.

Mitchell is one of the astronauts featured in the documentary In the Shadow of the Moon."

Constance Cumbey said...

Hi Susanna,

Quite a picture of "Maitreya" cum a much younger Rev. Moon. Joseph Tully, a CAUSA/Moonie operative, the executive director of CAUSA admitted to me in December 1983 that "yes, we work with Benjamin Creme AND Tara Center . . . but we don't agree on who that new Christ is."

I had not mentioned Tara Center to Joseph tully, but that was the name of the Creme/Maitreyan operation. My retort to Tully was: Yes, but you all agree on who he isn't, dont you? You all agree he isn't Jesus and that my friend is the test of antichrist, not who's currently jockeying for power in your crummy movement."

Tully said, there was biblical support -- in the book of Revelation where it said he received a stone with a new name that nobody knew but himself. I said, "well, buddy, let me tell you what that stone didn't say -- it didn't say Reverend Moon . . ."

They then kept me under house arrest until I was escorted by five moonies keeping me under complete surveillance and walking me on the plane . . . CREEPY . . . dangerous bunch . . . and then I had a fight with Tim LaHaye about them in February 1986!


Constance Cumbey said...

Hi Deannie,

I wonder why he isn't coming back to Detroit -- THE BIG COWARD!


Constance Cumbey said...

Hi Joyce,

The clear biblical test of antichrist is a denial that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 2:22.

Catholics do not deny Jesus is the Christ . . . they affirm it, apart it is from the New Age Catholics (Matthew Fox -- now excommunicated); Thomas Berry, the Geologian, Bro. David SteindlRast (he received an award from the Institute of Noetic Sciences."

The New Agers have been working behind their version of alleged Marian apparitions for years.


Anonymous said...

Joyce, it was the original church council described in the Book of Acts that did away with having to keep the Jewish law apart from refraining from fornication and from blood . . . You aren't going to blame the Catholics for that are you? If you are going to expect brownie points from God for keeping the old Jewish law, you had better keep it all -- as Paul said, "you are from grace . . ."

Anonymous said...


Maybe you can chase him out of Sodom by the Sea (San Fran).


Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...

I made a mistake when I attached the link before. Here is the explanation on Council of Nicea:

There's lots more documentation on this, but you'll get the idea.

Anonymous said...


"Orwellian" is exactly the right description for the "un- fairness" doctrine.

The "driveby media" who are nothing but shills for the socialists have been having a conniption fit over having failed to acquire a monopoly of every news and communications forum.

If we are going to talk about "fairness," here is a little "doctrine" of my own I would like to submit for honor of some of my ancestors who were involved in the American Revolution:

"Lock and load!"

Anonymous said...


Bravo! You are spot on!

Anonymous said...

Good news everyone. Wayne Peterson says the future is bright !

Anonymous said...


House arrest...yikes! That would have sure creeped me out.

As I mentioned before, I am still in learning mode about a lot of the New Age facets of the occult.

That Fellowship Foundation sounds pretty grim.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

7:12 PM

You must be reading some other blog. I'm the only Jewish peron who posts here I think. I have no poblem with Catholics and Protestants unless, unknown to me, there is something in the New Testament about a commandment to be a blog hog. Almost all Christians here do not seem to know about such a thing either. Some who claim to be so knowledgeable about the Bible might know of it as they try to be following that commandment.


Anonymous said...

Susanna, I can't keep up with all of the links you provided though skimming them they appear to be good ones. Can you tell me how the organization goes beyond itself to influence the larger Christian community outside of the Prayer Breakfast. I'm not knowledgeable how the Protestant community works.


Anonymous said...


Looks like you never visited the links I posted. There was already a full-church in place before 100 A.D. way before the Council of Nicea and the Catholic Church's liturgical calender is very close to the time Jews celebrate their various festivals. You can read about this in the Book " Salvation is from the Jews" by Hebrew Catholic Roy Schoeman.

I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song off Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." Melito of Sardes, Fragment in Eusebius' Ecclesiatical History, 4:26 (A.D. 177).

"But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, ' ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist'[2 Maccabees 7:28]." Origen, Fundamental Principles, 2:2 (A.D. 230).

"[T]he Wisdom of Solomon, a work which is certainly not esteemed authoritative by all. In that book, however, we find written as follows: "For thy almighty hand, that made the world out of shapeless matter, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears and fierce lions'[Wisdom 11:17]." Origen, Fundamental Principles, 2:2 (A.D. 230).

"'It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two; corresponding with the number of their letters.' Farther on he says: 'The twenty-two books of the Hebrews are the following: That which is called by us Genesis, but by the Hebrews, from the beginning of the book, Bresith, which means, 'In the beginning'; Exodus, Welesmoth, that is, 'These are the names'; Leviticus, Wikra, 'And he called'; Numbers, Ammesphekodeim; Deuteronomy, Eleaddebareim, ' These are the words'; Jesus, the son of Nave, Josoue ben Noun; Judges and Ruth, among them in one book, Saphateim; the First and Second of Kings, among them one, Samouel, that is, 'The called of God'; the Third and Fourth of Kings in one, Wammelch David, that is, 'The kingdom of David'; of the Chronicles, the First and Second in one, Dabreiamein, that is, 'Records of days'; Esdras, First and Second in one, Ezra, that is, 'An assistant'; the book of Psalms, Spharthelleim; the Proverbs of Solomon, Me-loth; Ecclesiastes, Koelth; the Song of Songs (not, as some suppose, Songs of Songs), Sir Hassirim; Isaiah, Jessia; Jeremiah, with Lamentations and the epistle in one, Jeremiah[Baruch 6]; Daniel, Daniel; Ezekiel, Jezekiel; Job, Job; Esther, Esther. And besides these there are the Maccabees, which are entitled Sarbeth Sabanaiel." Origen, Canon of the Hebrews, Fragment in Eusebius' Church History, 6:25 (A.D. 244).

"[A]s is written in the book of Tobit: 'It is good to keep close the secret of a king, but honourable to reveal the works of God'[Tobit 12:7],--in a way consistent with truth and God's glory, and so as to be to the advantage of the multitude." Origen, Against Celsus, 5:19 (A.D. 248).

"But he ought tp know that those who wish to live according to the teaching of Sacred Scripture understand the saying, 'The knowledge of the unwise is as talk without sense'[Sirach 21:18], and have learnt 'to be ready always to give an answer to everyone that asketh us a reason for the hope that is in us'[1 Pt 3:15]." Origen, Against Celsus, 7:12 (A.D. 248).


Anonymous said...

On a lighter and off topic note:

17 year old diagnosed with climate change delusion in Australia:

Might it be caused from an incessant drum beat of silliness like this?

Cow farts collected in plastic
tank for global warming study

Note the quote of Professor Ross Garnaut, "Australians must pay more for petrol, food and energy or ultimately face a rising death toll . . ."

Hi Joyce. I hope your travels went well.


Rudi said...

Hi Joyce- Thanks for the links and info on the Nine Gates Youth Program.
No surprise to read the creator and founder Gay Luce is a long time friend and associate of Jean Houston. Nine Gates Mystery School is one of the organizations who are partnered with and sponsoring the 8th AGNT Awakened World Conference in Oct. Gay Luce and Deborah Jones are two of the six “master teachers” who will be working with attendees who want pre-conference training in a “more intensive setting” The conference page has a list of the last 7 conferences. I found it was interesting to note who the “presenters” have been each year. They all like to congregate at the same watering hole.

The link to info about the 2008 conference is on the list on the left side of AGNT main page.

Also, earlier today when you mentioned “Alice” and “The Externalisation of the Hierarchy” I was reminded of something I was looking at the other day. The Lucis Trust/ World Goodwill / Cycle of Conferences project (a worldwide meditation group) has a weblog of “news and quality journalism” on their current projects – what they think are important issues to focus their
“energies” on. I think the site is a good heads-up for us to zero in on important areas to be watching. One recent article I found to be of interest is titled, “This economic panic is pushing the planet right back down the agenda” by George Monbiot. After reading the proofs of a book by Oliver Tickell, “Kyoto2: How to Manage the Global Greenhouse” (published next month) Monboit says he has changed his “contraction and convergence.” view. There isn’t enough information to fully evaluate what this means, but coming from Monbiot I’m thinking he’ll go from bad to worst. The article is under the category
‘Earth Stewardship” Lots to read in the October 07-July 08 archives at the first link below. -Rudi


Cycle of Conferences:

Hi Frances- Don’t let anyone discourage you from expressing your opinion here. MANY readers share your views and Constance welcomes comments from all. -Rudi

Anonymous said...

Let me see, a woman was strangled to death by her “father” in Georgia this week; reason? She didn’t go along with a fixed marriage. Can anyone tell me where NOW is? No Jews in Saudi Arabia? What, I can’t bring my Bible there? Thousands of Muslims killed in Algeria by Muslims and hardly a glance? Palestinians manipulated into camps to breed human bombs and that’s applauded? Paris is burning; only an unemployment problem! Sharia law OK for British Muslim communities? Well wait, the tide of money and fear is proposing sharia law on a global scale.

My guess is that if that same law was applied to Christian sects we might all be in trouble for our statements here; as it is, I’m waiting to get my throat cut now.

Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, the witch of En-Dor, anyone, can you help with Republicanism?

Anonymous said...

Hi Constance,

The Advisory Board of IONS includes Maurice Strong, Desmond Tutu, Peter Russell, Deepak Chopra and Satish Kumar. They are closely linked to the World Commission on Global Consciousness and Spirituality, and also fund Princeton University's Global Consciousness Project.

IONS mission statement:
“At the Institute of Noetic Sciences, we employ the rigor of science, balanced by personal and collective wisdom, to support a shift in consciousness that transforms present global conditions into a world grounded in freedom, wisdom, and love. We serve an emerging movement of globally conscious citizens dedicated to manifesting our highest capacities.”


re: Iran's missile tests...
Did you see that they have been photoshopping their official photos.. too funny :)

Anonymous said...


Regarding Sun Myun Moon, in a previous comment you asked rhetorically:

"I just wonder what's going to happen to his empire after he dies."

I did a little snooping around and came up with a little information regarding the Moon Succession.:-)

Hyung Jin Moon is the youngest son of Rev. Sun Myung Moon and Mrs. Hak Ja Han Moon. He was born September 26, 1979 in the United States, In April 2008, Sun Myung Moon (then 88 years old) appointed Hyung Jin Moon to be the new leader of the Family Federation for World Peace (FFWP), saying, "I hope everyone helps him so that he may fulfill his duty as the successor of the True Parents." At his inaugural ceremony as the International President of the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification (FFWPU) and the President of the FFWPU Korea, Hyung Jin Moon said “I will do my best to spread the love of God and True Parents to the world.” [1]

Hyung Jin Moon holds an undergraduate degree from Harvard University and a Master’s Degree in Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity School. As a student of Buddhism for many years, he shaved his head and wore the gray robes of a monk. During that period he said, "My father really respects individual free will. He understood that I am in a course of study and growth. I am also studying Islam, Christianity, and all other religions. I want to work to build respect among all religions to bring world peace." more....

There appears to be a discrepancy in the spellings and date of birth, but I would say from the rest of the biography that this is one and the same person:

Hyun Jin "Preston" Moon (Born 4/10/1969), is the third son of Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon and Hak Ja Han. He is married to Jun Sook Kwak (Born 12/24/1967), daughter of Unification Church leader Chung Hwan Kwak, through an arranged marriage on March 31, 1987. They have eight children.

After Sun Myung Moon and Hak Ja Han Moon's oldest son Hyo Jin Moon manifested long-term problems with substance abuse, infidelity, and violence, and after Heung Jin Moon (the second oldest son) died in 1984, Hyun Jin Moon - the next oldest living son - became widely expected to become Rev. Moon's next-generation successor. He has already assumed a number of top leadership positions......

......He has been the leader of various businesses founded by Rev. Moon. He became the Vice-President of the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification (FFWPU) in 1998, and President of World CARP in March 2000. In 2006, he became President of the Youth Federation for World Peace, and that same year he was named President of Unification Church International by its more....

Here are a couple more "memory refresher" links.

Anonymous said...


Hi Frances- Don’t let anyone discourage you from expressing your opinion here. MANY readers share your views and Constance welcomes comments from all. -Rudi

Rudi we know you are part of the Joyce Paul group who attempts to intimidate everyone who disagrees with them. For a period of several weeks I left this website rather than be drawn into a bitter confrontation and anyone who has been reading here for the last several months knows that.

The fact that you made the above comment shows that you do not want anyone to disagree with the Joyce Paul group.

This website wasn't set up as a monarchy complete with competition among fawning courtiers

I've known Constance longer than anyone who posts here and that isn't her nature. Constance has always treated everyone decently, never putting her nose in the air, claiming to be superior because she knew more than anyone about the NA movement. That's why we have been friends for so many years. There are too few people like her in that regard. She has her weaknesses, as we all do, but that's not one of them.

She has stayed out of the fray because she has trust in people, hoping the best side will always show itself in them.

I'm more cynical which is why this time I'm not going to back off. Got that?


Anonymous said...

To all,

Breaking. Just heard on the TODAY show that Iran has tested more missiles in the Persian Gulf.

Will post news links later as they become available.

Anonymous said...

HI Rudi,
Thank you. That was interesting to see they'll be focusing on "Mideast Peace". Interestingly ANF is one of the sponsors of Harvard's Abraham Path, which is in turn sponsored by Alliance of Civilizations. You might know this already. I've noticed more and more the New Age and Muslims mixing openly in their efforts for Mideast Peace.

By the way, thank you Frances. Welcome...always nice to hear a few kind words.

Most of the time you make pretty good contributions, and no one asked you to leave to begin with. I don't offend easily, as you might have noticed, so I can deal with your sometimes sarcastic I probably won't leave either.

Back to our research everyone...we're living in evil days.


Anonymous said...

Good Morning!! I am not sure if this is revelant to this post BUT I found it interesting.

UN is looking to criminalize Christianity.

Anonymous said...

From the Universal Awakening project which Alex Gray is on the Board of, I linked to Princeton's Global Consciousness Project. Interesting organizations connected:

I'll post it on CC's site because it links to Noetic Sciences and a lot of other NA organizations.


Anonymous said...

error........this is Constance's site, now I have to post on Bjorn's.

Anonymous said...

One of the things I linked to off Princeton's site, is the "scientific evidence" for TM. Our universities are using garbage science to usher in the Age of Aquarius:

Evidently, you can't send the exact link, so at the top of the page look under scholarly, and you will see a list of things of which TM is highlighted.

Princeton is just blatantly promoting Hinduism, along with Mother goddess worship, along with every other kind of NA practice. If this isn't institutional preparation for mass initiation and the anti-messiah, I don't what is.


Anonymous said...

Oh, excuse me Noetic Sciences is under "Professional links". There's probably a gold mine of information on Princeton's site, if anyone wants to search.

Anonymous said...

The Princeton link is amazing. You're right about a goldmine of information. What a change, Princeton was founded by a group of Ministers to raise up Ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and also educate others for vocations. It grew out of the Great Awakening. I wonder how many other Universities are promoting such garbage. Excellent find Joyce. For those of you outside the US, Princeton is an Ivy League school: on par with Harvard and Yale.

Anonymous said...

Hi Joyce,

I was reading the Princeton site. It came about after a chance meeting at the Esalen Insitute.

I gather it's purpose is to put a scientific face on this New Age religion.

"The image for the project is drawn from that of the EEG, as this technology is used in an attempt to capture something of human consciousness in the form of brain activity measured by electrodes distributed over the surface of the head. Of course the earth is not a head, and yet, the image of a global consciousness, comprised of a complex and active layer of interconnected, intelligent creatures, is compelling, and has generated profound scientific and literary work, including that of Teilhard de Chardin."

Which reminded me of a book published by the Esalen Insitute called, "Esalen: America and the Religion of No Religion". It's about the history and influence of the organization. The description at the website says: "For so many of us, Esalen means an embodied experience of healing, personal exploration, contact and relationship, and deep transformation. Kripal's book takes this rich legacy and puts it in its context of cultural initiative and societal transformation."

The book might also have some information on the extent to which they have influenced our culture. I wonder if there are any surprises in it, other links that might be learnt.

It seems both the Princeton group and Esalen are loathe to call their "personal transformation" religion.


Anonymous said...

More In The News.

Council of Europe Resolves to Step Up Pro-Homosexual Pressure in
Poland, Greece, Latvia, Belarus, Serbia, Malta, Slovakia and Ukraine targetted.

"In many of the countries homosexual activists have noted that the continued influence of religious bodies, in most cases either Orthodox or Catholic, is a significant obstacle for their progress."

I was watching an interview with a conservative Anglican priest on BBC, yesterday and he said that the Anglican church is re-writing 2000 years of Christianity. He said they're denying the Bible is the word of God and that Jesus is the son of God.


Anonymous said...

Back to the Esalen Insitute:

Harvard is working with the Esalen Insitute to offer continuing education in psychiatry. Glad to see Harvard is lending it's medical credibility to such an organization. Read this description of a book they offer:

Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century

No activity in Esalen's history, we believe, has more potential importance than the research that produced the book described below. The book's authors, led by Ed and Emily Kelly, professors in the Department of Psychiatric Medicine at the University of Virginia, have been members of an Esalen fellowship that has since 1998 explored empirical approaches to the question of post-mortem survival (see for a description of their meetings). The world's religious traditions give us contradictory, and often fanciful answers to this perennial question, but our fellowship has worked in the spirit of science to find a solid, empirical basis from which to explore the reality of life after death. Irreducible Mind is a report from the cutting edge of this inquiry.

Once again, trying to find scientific justification for their brand of religion.


Anonymous said...


CONSTANCE: Susanna, I'd like you to meet Rudi. Rudi is a talented researcher and a regular guest on my radio show! We're not sure how she feels about gays and minorities, but we DO know she has strong feelings about the Roman Catholic Church!

SUSANNA: Hi, Rudi! (smiles and waves)

CONSTANCE: Rudi, this is Susanna, another wonderful researcher! Susanna happens to be a Roman Catholic!

RUDI glares silently at Susanna.


I agree, more fun than SNL.

Got popcorn?

Anonymous said...


The links from the Princeton are very interesting. It takes 3 or 4degrees of separation to get to this weird site in the UK about psychic children (lots on Indigo, blue-ray, crystal etc.) You get there via links on the International Conciousness Research Laboratories, by way of geomancy, archeoastronomy, sacred sites, etc. I had never heard of geomancy or archeoastronomy. Learn something new each day.


Anonymous said...


The thing that infuriates me is the fact that an organization like the U.N. (a.k.a. Woodrow Wilson "League of Nations clone") would be allowed to continue operating their little EU "fifth column" here on U.S. soil - presumably at the taxpayers expense.

Unfortunately, the same thing is happening up in Canada where a priest was investigated this past June for quoting the Bible.

And then there is the International Bacchalaureate business:

"IB Schools in U.S. Under U.N. Law

International Baccalaureate: An Analysis of Jurisdiction

By Lyn Rahman

The International Baccalaureate Organization (IBO), based in Geneva, Switzerland, offers three different International Baccalaureate (IB) programs and is responsible for assisting schools with implementation so that children learn how to become "engaged world citizens" (IBO, 2006) more.....

I personally think the U.N. should be shipped off to Brussels so that members can party there with their socialist confreres at the expense of their new host country.

But then again the fictional Mafia Godfather Don Vito Corleone may have had a point when he advised his son Michael : "Keep your friends close and keep your enemies even closer."

Of course if we shut up ALL the people who profess to be Christians here in the U.S., we might miss out on fun stuff like this:

Rudi said...

Anonymous 12:30 PM
You flit around the comments section like a pesky little fly. Buzz off.

Anonymous said...

Hey Rudi, more like a "thorn in your side"?

Anonymous said...

I just saw your link. I know there are Jews in the Catholic Church. In fact there are many in Europe due to the Inquisition the Shoah, etc, etc. Having said that, to me, is the ultimate in treason against their own people, not for accepting Yeshua as Messiah, but because the RCC, has instituted replacement theology i.e. the Catholic Church thought it replaced Israel, when the nation failed to accept Yeshua instead of seeing that the nations are grafted into the olive tree.

The changing of the moedim reflects this. Dates close to God's calendar are not the dates that God gave. The dates reflect winter solstice and the celebration of the fertility goddess Ishtar. There is no justification for changing the Passover, since Yeshua was the Passover Lamb..All this to say, I'm not going to start a lengthy discussion about how Paul's command not to be arrogant against the branches:

"and David saith, ‘Let their table become for a snare, and for a trap, and for a stumbling-block, and for a recompense to them;
let their eyes be darkened — not to behold, and their back do Thou always bow down.’ I say, then, Did they stumble that they might fall? let it not be! but by their fall the salvation [is] to the nations, to arouse them to jealousy; and if the fall of them [is] the riches of a world, and the diminution of them the riches of nations, how much more the fulness of them? For to you I speak — to the nations — inasmuch as I am indeed an apostle of nations, my ministration I do glorify; if by any means I shall arouse to jealousy mine own flesh, and shall save some of them, for if the casting away of them [is] a reconciliation of the world, what the reception — if not life out of the dead? and if the first-fruit [is] holy, the lump also; and if the root [is] holy, the branches also. And if certain of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wast graffed in among them, and a fellow-partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree didst become — do not boast against the branches; and if thou dost boast, thou dost not bear the root, but the root thee! Thou wilt say, then, ‘The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in;’ right!
by unbelief they were broken off, and thou hast stood by faith; be not high-minded, but be fearing;
for if God the natural branches did not spare — lest perhaps He also shall not spare thee. Romans 11:9-21

Sorry about attaching the long passage, but in my view, the early Church, 2nd-4th Century began to exactly what Paul said not too. By the 4th Century with Constantine, you have the real beginnings of replacement theology. Thus, we cancel all the "Jewish feasts" which I call Biblical feasts, that God said were "olam" which means eternal. They were not only for Israel, but for the alien who dwelt among Israel. Remember Jews are only 2 1/2 tribes and God wants to restore the whole family, plus anyone who wants to be "grafted into the Olive Tree". Olive Trees do not produce oranges. They produce olives.

When the body is functiong the way God intended one day, we will have the restoration of all things i.e. the bride, Israel, who God married at Mt. Sinai. Who is Israel? The House of Judah, the House of Israel, and all the nations who attach themselves to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This will be the true unity.

I just saw your question. Thanks for asking. The travels went well. Hope you are well!!

Anonymous said...

A sad little internet journey;

From - St James's, Church of England, Piccadilly, London;

To - Alternatives ... who "We host Monday talks at St James’s Church, Piccadilly and weekend workshops in spirituality, creativity, wellbeing and self development."

Meet the 'Alternatives' team - includes early Findhorn influences (particularly John Hunt Trustee Director);

'Alternatives' speakers include,

Rupert Sheldrake, Fellow IONs


Gary Mannion, Indigo Child


An interesting Community Links page at 'Shift in Action' in association with IONs,


Young Grasshopper said...


Thank you so much for the links about sustainable development! I have been using them in my current battle of spiritual warfare which has been going on for the past 4 days!

It looks like I dropped in here just in the nick of time for material to use regarding my latest onslaught against the enemy- a New Age professor in this case, trying to make a fool of me by saying that I am implying that every educational institution in the world has bought into brainwashing our kids with new age manifestos. Is this amazing or what?

Can you or Dorothy or someone lead me to some links that shows evidence that this is so? Dorothy, I think you mentioned a book called "Weep for your children recently?"

Any pertinent links to this topic that I can use to show the people on this forum the truth would be very helpful.

I truly, truly appreciate all the research you all do!

Anonymous said...


I just saw the cow business..Wow, wonder if any of the noxious gas on the blog here would be useful for their studies on global warming.....Sorry, but I couldn't resist.


Anonymous said...


YIKES! Is this your church?

I recall first reading about Findhorn in Constance's book HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW.

Is it still kind of the "Vatican" of the New Age Movement?

Anonymous said...

Hi Susanna,

Thankfully, no, I'm hundreds of miles away in Scotland, although I do still have family down south around the London area.

As far as I'm aware Findhorn, Scotland remain the NA 'vatican'!
Constance is very knowledgable on Findhorn and recently alerted us all that they were UN Eco advisors or something like that.

Findhorn have a quiet little 'branch' locally to us,

This Erraid/Findhorn community are very close neighbours with the Isle of Iona and also have a holiday property there and also casual/neighbourly links with Iona Abbey.

It is believed that the Book of Kells was scribed by the Irish Monks who lived at Iona and this, (plus many Scottish Kings are buried here) makes Iona a Christian place of pilgrimage with visitors arriving from all over the world.


Anonymous said...

Young Grasshopper,

Glad to help. If I can be of further assistance, let me know.

For starters, you might want to check out this link I just posted in a comment to Setterman.

Here are some other links that might prove useful:


Public schools teaching occult religion?
Lawsuit challenges tax funding of New Age curriculum

New Age Teachings and Techniques Infiltrate Schools

New Age Teaching In Our Schools

Yoga causes controversy in public schools
Some parents say it violates the separation of church and state

MSNBC report

KIPP As New Age Psychological Sterilization

(Note: KIPP = "Knowledge is Power Program)

Anonymous said...

Hi Joyce,

Have you read the Cathecism of the Catholic Church even once? It does not teach replacement theology.

674 The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: "Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old." St. Paul echoes him: "For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?" The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles", will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all".

755 "The Church is a cultivated field, the tillage of God. On that land the ancient olive tree grows whose holy roots were the prophets and in which the reconciliation of Jews and Gentiles has been brought about and will be brought about again. That land, like a choice vineyard, has been planted by the heavenly cultivator. Yet the true vine is Christ who gives life and fruitfulness to the branches, that is, to us, who through the Church remain in Christ, without whom we can do nothing.

To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ", "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."

All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit."

Constantine did not invent Catholicism, he made Christianity legal. Jesus said the gates of Hell would not preserve against His Church. So Jesus lied?

Three hundred years before Constantine, Christians believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, honoured Mary, had elaborate ceremonies, believed in Purgatory, respected the Church hierarchy, baptized babies, recognized Peter as the Rock, built the Church upon him with successors and followed a rich tradition of Christianity. That was the Christianity of the early days of Christianity and that is the Catholic Church of today. Catholic means "universal."

And we have the historical evidence to Prove it!

Anonymous said...

To "Rudi," who told another poster to "Buzz off" but who wrote earlier in this VERY SAME thread to Frances:

"Constance welcomes comments from all"

It looks like "Rudi" uses "Rule A" when it suits her, and "Rule B" (the OPPOSITE of "Rule A") when it doesn't.

How convenient is THAT?

And to Anonymous 12:30 PM


Anonymous said...

Savvy ( I'm assuming this is you who wrote the last post),

Yeshua said on this rock I will build my "ekklesia". As I've explained before ekklesia is the same word as qahal in the Torah, and we can actually know this because the Greek Septuagint speaks of assembly in the wilderness as the ekklesia, and as you probably know that was written 200 years roughly before Yeshua. If the assembly is the same assembly as the one in the wilderness it is not "a church", it is the called out saints from Israel.

I do not agree that Yeshua instituted "the eucharist" . To say "eat my body" is a hebrew euphemism. He was the Passover Lamb, not the eucharist. Passover was still being celebrated in Paul's day..He is referring to the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Hag Matzah in this passage:

1Cor. 5:8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

The idea of transubstantiation just cannot be substantiated with Scripture. Nor, Peter as the head of the "Catholic Church". The rock that Yeshua was building His assembly on, started in the Wilderness. Here is the proof in Corinthians:

1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Yeshua was building His assembly on Himself..HE was there from the beginning. He was with Israel in the wilderness. I do agree that the called-out assembly will be made up of Jews and the nations, but within the nations there are physical descendants of Israel who are "the lost sheep of the House of Israel" that Yeshua sent His disciples looking for. Does He have a plan for the ones who are not the literal seed of Israel ? Absolutely. They are part of the same Olive Tree as they attach themselves to Yeshua, and receive their nourishment from the Living Torah. He lived out Torah perfectly, and showed us how to too.

As the hellenistic thinking entered in the assembly, things were changed. Tanach was called "old Testament". The covenant was renewed so that it would be written on the heart of Israel. It was renewed in the blood of spotless Lamb Yeshua, who gave us DIRECT access to the throne, without need for a priest or intermediary. The Catholic Church uses priests and saints and Mary, hinders the access to the throne that God Himself opened up. Yeshua is our Cohen HaGadol. The veil to the holy of holies was torn. So much more I could say about this, but I don't want to make the post lengthier than it already is.


Anonymous said...

I will add one more bit of historical information. The Gentile believers separated themselves from their hebrew roots pretty early on. Jewish believers began being excluded from the synagogues when they did not join Simon Bar Kochba's rebellion in about 130 a.d. As the synagogue system became more important, after the destruction of the Temple, Judaism was forced to change. No temple, no korban, no priesthood, etc.

The period between the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d. and 135 a.d. was a transitional one. As the Jewish leadership disappeared and the Gentiles had already distanced themselves from them to not get caught up in the Roman persecution against the Jews, you had a leadership that was removed from the original context of the Temple and synagogue system. The non-believing Jews began excluding the believing Jews from the synagogue by making them say a prayer renouncing Yeshua, and of course they wouldn't. They were angry when the Jewish believers would not participate in the rebellion against Rome with their "false messiah" Simon Bar Kochba.

I believe God sovereignly permitted this so that the Gospel would go to the nations. In spite of the imperfections in doctrine and so on, throughout the centuries, the message of Yeshua spread, but in these Last Days, as God is once again dealing with the Jews in a particular way, there is a restoration of the Torah that we are seeing.

Many people are asking the question, why don't we honor the Sabbath, why do we celebrate Easter and not Passover, why don't we celebrate Succot since we'll celebrate it for all of eternity. I really believe this is a prophetic move of God's spirit as we are being prepared for the ingathering. I think the Protestant Reformation, and I believe rightly so, questioned many of the things about the RCC and we had splinters of Protestant denominations like Calvanists, and Anglicans and Baptists and on and on. This splintering is not the unity of the body that the Bible speaks of.

I have experienced, along with others that unity comes when we are looking at the same texts together and studying them closely, and understanding them together in proper historical context. The unity will come through God's Word and His Spirit leading us in truth.

There is not yet a perfect assembly, I will grant you that, but as the Torah is restored to its original significance, particularly through the Jewish believers coming to faith, we are seeing the prophecies unfold in our generation:

Zech. 8:23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

The corner of the garment is the tzitzit and they represent the keeping of the commandments. The 10 men...could represent the 10 tribes who are scattered in the nations..

If you look up Ezekiel 37:15-28 in your Bible, you will see the reunification of all Israel, Judah ( the Jews, and Ephraim) the Northern Kingdom, and Jer 31:31-33, is the same, Torah being put on their hearts as they come together as one. If you don't understand this major theme running through Scripture, you're libel to think the Jews are all of physical Israel, and they're not. Israel is still scattered and hidden in the nations.

Sorry, I'm not much for the catechism. I was a Jew and didn't find out till I was older, so I went to Catholic school for 9 years and hated every minute of it. I'm sure we did some catechism there, but can't honestly say I remember it. I just didn't like it at all. After really opened my heart to Yeshua, I tried once going to a Catholic Church. I could not stay.

We do need a whole olive tree with all the branches, the natural ones and the ones that are not native born Israel. This is the beauty of God's redemption plan. Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. We blew it, but God in sovereignty already knew we would and had prepared His plan of redemption, Yeshua.


Anonymous said...

It's rather astonishing how many people here prefer to read Joyce on "Judaism" and "Catholicism" when they can read somebody Eve Tushnet.

The world is a strange place indeed...

Anonymous said...

Sorry, that should have said,

"When they can read somebody like Eve Tushnet."

Nonetheless, the world is still a strange place...

Anonymous said...

Hi -K-

I am partly of Scottish descent. My friend who lives in Heywood sends me many wonderful things from Scotland when she goes favorite being a chieftans badge for my clan.

I have been to England and want to go again, but I also want to visit Scotland and Ireland with my husband.

Up in Nova Scotia there are Highland games every year in Antigonish in which both Irish and Scottish "Gaels" participate. I have attended them on a couple of occasions. My favorite part of the competitions is the big bagpipe band tatoo. It can probably be heard for miles around.
My dream is to attend the games in Scotland sometime soon.

Have you ever been to the United states? Well if not, I wish to say to you


Anonymous said...

I love Eve Tushnet!!!!

She is an AMAZING writer!


"Oh Susanna", this is one is especially for you:

(Where Eve asks, "What is the relationship between Democracy and the greatness of soul?")

Anonymous said...


Hi Joyce - speaking of 'noosphere', I happened across the following on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881 - 1955) when reading something else, maybe it is of interest to you;

"Teilhard (pronounced "Tay-yah") developed the concept of "the noosphere", the emergence of a layer of thought and spirit that surrounds the globe - as the biosphere is a layer of life surrounding the earth, and the atmosphere the layer of air over the earth. The noosphere embodies human influence and interaction, stimulating bonds of unity and "convergence" through increasing consciousness and "spiritualization" to an ultimate consummation in what he calls "Christ-Omega". "


The late Sir George Trevelyan's website,

His Life;


Anonymous said...

Joyce talks and talks but who listens. Life is short


Anonymous said...

Thanks Susanna :)

I'm sure you'd love the Scottish Highlands and be given the warmest of welcomes ... it's a geographically amazing place with some wonderful people and ways but then I'm seriously biased and blissfully happy here. :)

"My heart's in the Highlands wherever I roam." Robbie Burns.


Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:45,

Re: Eve Tushnet

If the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen were alive today, his reply to Eve's rhetorical question "What is the relationship between democracy and the greatness of soul?" would likely be that "the greatness of soul" requires that one be both tolerant AND intolerant. Tolerant when it comes to people (demos)....but intolerant when it comes to the truth.....because insofar as something cannot simultaneously be and not-be in the same species, the truth is of itself intolerant.

Anonymous said...

Hi K,

Cape Breton Island, which I love to visit has some similarities to Scotland.

Given the poem you quoted, I thought you might also be familiar with this one. :)

"Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd,
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd,
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonour'd, and unsung.
O Caledonia! stern and, wild,
Meet nurse for a poetic child!
Land of brown heath and shaggy wood
Land of the mountain and the flood,
Land of my sires! what mortal hand
Can e'er untie the filial band,
That knits me to thy rugged strand!
Still, as I view each well-known scene,
Think what is now, and what hath been,
Seems as, to me of all bereft,
Sole friends thy woods and streams were left;
And thus I love them better still
Even in extremity of ill.
By Yarrow's streams still let me stray,
Though none should guide my feeble way.,
Still feel the breeze down Ettrick break,
Although it chill my wither'd cheek;
Still lay my head by Teviot Stone,
Though there, forgotten and alone,
The Bard may draw his parting groan."

Sir Walter Scott

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the information on the Moon corporate interests. The fact that a lot of the corporations are shell corporations and the stories about how Tongil has lost money lead me to believe that money is being infused from other sources.

We no longer have to search hard for new leads on any topic. They spill out of the computer like ticker tape of old spit out of the machines. The hard part is to analyze the material and separate the valuable from the useless. Once you opened a door that I didn't find time to open or was to lazy to open, I found many sources that led me to understand the nature of Moon's operation.



Anonymous said...


Thanks for those links on Teilhard and the other fellow. Very interesting. I need some time to read and digest them. I will also pass them to a friend who explained that Teilhard was responsible for Vatican II. Not exactly sure why she says this, but I will try to dig up some information on that because if it's true, that will say a lot about what Vatican II was really about.....

As for the other less than kind comments from those who delight in dart-throwing, I will just let those roll of the shoulder and continue to bless you in the name of Yeshua.


Anonymous said...

Hi Dorothy,

I am happy to have been able to share information you found useful.
The things done electronically by computers now, I used to do by hand when I worked for a newspaper. All new information had to be put on microfiche. Good thing I am something of a news junkie. Otherwise I wouldn't have known which end was up.

As you said, finding information is one thing. Analyzing it is quite another.

As an attempt to begin answering your question about The Fellowship Group, "Can you tell me how the organization goes beyond itself to influence the larger Christian community outside of the Prayer Breakfast?" let me first focus on its roots.

As you may recall, I mentioned the fact that there was a real fear in the late 1930's that Hitler was trying to establish a fifth column here in the U.S. and that the German American Bund was among the organizations suspected of facilitating this project. I also told you about Ravalette: The Rosicrucian's Story which was republished in 1939 by R. Swinburne Clymer who wished to make it clear that his Fraternitas Rosæ Crucis had nothing to do with the AMORC led by H. Spencer Lewis.

The reason for Clymer's concern was that the R.C. Fraternity had come into the crosshairs of the House Un-American Activities Committee after a photo of H.Spencer Lewis and Benito Mussolini appeared on the front page of the New York Times in which the two appeared to be on very friendly terms.

The following is excerpted from Wayne Madsen's THE FELLOWSHIP: "Christian" Mafia Conspiracy

It is instructive given the similarities between the New Age Movement and Nazism.
Have you ever read Joseph J. Carr's book THE TWISTED CROSS?


The roots of the Fellowship go back to the 1930s and a Norwegian immigrant and Methodist minister named Abraham Vereide. According to Fellowship archives maintained at the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College in Illinois, Vereide, who immigrated from Norway in 1905, began an outreach ministry in Seattle in April 1935. But his religious outreach involved nothing more than pushing for an anti-Communist, anti-union, anti-Socialist, and pro-Nazi German political agenda. A loose organization and secrecy were paramount for Vereide.

Fellowship archives state that Vereide wanted his movement to “carry out its objective through personal, trusting, informal, unpublicized contact between people.” Vereide’s establishment of his Prayer Breakfast Movement for anti-Socialist and anti-International Workers of the World (IWW or “Wobblies”) Seattle businessmen in 1935 coincided with the establishment of another pro-Nazi German organization in the United States, the German-American Bund. Vereide saw his prayer movement replacing labor unions.

A student of the un-Christian German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, Vereide’s thoughts about a unitary religion based on an unyielding subservience to a composite notion of “Jesus” put him into the same category as many of the German nationalist philosophers who were favored by Hitler and the Nazis.

Nietzsche wrote the following of Christianity: “When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a Jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God’s son? The proof of such a claim is lacking.”

One philosophical fellow traveler of Vereide was the German Nazi philosopher Martin Heidegger, a colleague of Leo Strauss, the father of American neo-conservatism and the mentor of such present-day American neo-conservatives as Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. Strauss’s close association with Heidegger and the Nazi idea of telling the big lie in order to justify the end goals – Machiavellianism on steroids -- did not help Strauss in Nazi Germany. Because he was Jewish, he was forced to emigrate to the United States, where he eventually began teaching neo-conservative political science at the University of Chicago.

It is this confluence of right-wing philosophies that provides a political bridge between modern-day Christian Rightists (including so-called Christian Zionists) and the secular-oriented neo-conservatives who support a policy that sees a US-Israeli alliance against Islam and European-oriented democratic socialism. For the dominion theologists, the United States is the new Israel, with a God-given mandate to establish dominion over the entire planet.

Neither the secular neo-conservatives nor Christian fundamentalists seem to have a problem with the idea of American domination of the planet, as witnessed by the presence of representatives of both camps as supporters of the neo-conservative Project for a New American Century, the neo-conservative blueprint for America’s attack on Iraq and plans to attack, occupy, and dominate other countries that oppose U.S. designs.

What bound all so-called “America First” movements prior to World War II was their common hatred for labor unions, Communists and Socialists, Jews, and most definitely, the administration of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Vereide’s Prayer Breakfast Movement, pro-Nazi German groups like the Bund, and a resurgent Ku Klux Klan had more than propaganda in common – they had an interlocking leadership and a coordinated political agenda.

Anonymous said...

There is one anonymous comment I'd like to respond to because of my theological convictions, so I'll post it because it was on here a while ago:

anonymous said...
"Joyce, it was the original church council described in the Book of Acts that did away with having to keep the Jewish law apart from refraining from fornication and from blood . . . You aren't going to blame the Catholics for that are you? If you are going to expect brownie points from God for keeping the old Jewish law, you had better keep it all -- as Paul said, "you are from grace . . .""

7:10 PM

Never saw this remark, but if you read those passages in Acts 15 carefully, you will note that what they were talking about is eating kosher. Most Jews who are honest recognize this immediately. After they explained what things would be required for initial fellowship i.e. so they could eat together...and wouldn't have people participating in idolatry and sexual immorality, James said this:

Acts 15:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Another words the new believers would go to the synagogue, where the Torah was read and grow and learn. It's kind of like today when someone comes to Yeshua, and they are living with their boy or girl friend. The first thing you do is tell them to deal with the sin problem, but later on they will grow and be sanctified.

Another error in your statement is "Jewish law". It was not the Jewish law. It was God's law given to all Israel, not just the Jews. Check the book of 1Kings and you will see there were more than just Jews. It was also given to the alien who dwelt among Israel.

Israel was never "saved" by keeping Torah. Torah was God's holy instructions given for our benefit and protection. Abraham, Moses and all the rest were saved by faith. Read Hebrews 11, and you will understand this. The Torah teaches us how to live. It doesn't save us. I was saved when I put my trust in Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of my sins. Now because of His death for my sin, out of love and obedience want to walk in His ways, and learn all that I can about His Word.

If you ask most Jews, they will tell you they do not believe they are saved by keeping Torah.

Glad I found your comment. Hard to keep up with all of them.


Anonymous said...


Jul 10 12:07 PM US/Eastern
Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran test-fired more long-range missiles overnight in a second round of exercises meant to show that the country can defend itself against any attack by the U.S. or Israel, state television reported Thursday.
The weapons have "special capabilities" and included missiles launched from naval ships in the Persian Gulf, along with torpedoes and surface-to-surface missiles, the broadcast said. It did not elaborate.

A brief video clip showed two missiles being fired simultaneously in the darkness trailed by red plumes of fire and smoke.

The report came hours after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice warned Iran that Washington will not back down in the face of threats against Israel. more...

Anonymous said...

Susanna and others,
This are the paragraphs that caught my attention from Susanna's link.

"When the Founders of our nation constitutionally separated Church and State, the idea of the Fellowship taking over the government would have been their worst nightmare. The Fellowship has been around under various names since 1935. Its stealth existence has been perpetuated by its organization into small cells, a pyramid organization of “correspondents,” “associates,” “friends,” “members,” and “core members,” tax-exempt status for its foundations, and its protection by the highest echelons of the our own government and those abroad."

"According to Time magazine, after Bush’s re-election, a group of evangelicals, not surprisingly known as “The Arlington Group,” wrote Karl Rove a letter signed by former presidential candidate Gary Bauer, Don Wildmon, Focus on the Family’s James Dobson, Paul Weyrich and Jerry Falwell demanding that Bush not waver and support a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage."

"But more importantly, the Fellowship had links to the election machine companies that would be crucial to fixing election results in Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, Nevada, and other states – ensuring that Fellowship core member George W. Bush had four more years to put a practically indelible fundamentalist stamp on the United States."

"The political and religious dynasties who have embraced the Fellowship, Vereide, Fascism, Moon, Buchman, Moral Rearmament and all of their current and past manifestations, hatreds, and phobias show no sign of ceding power any time soon. There are many such father-son dynasties that hope to ensure a continuation of their shameful racketeering and political chicanery under the corporate “logo” of Jesus: George H. W. Bush to George W. Bush; Douglas Coe to David Coe; Billy Graham to Franklin Graham; Oral Roberts to Richard Roberts, Pat Robertson to Gordon Robertson; Jerry Falwell to Jonathan Falwell; Jeb Bush to George P. Bush; Robert Schuller Sr. to Robert Schuller, Jr., and Sun Myung Moon to at least nine sons (who are known about)."

Tell me if I'm off base here. What is being called to our attention is a fascist political group that has infiltrated the Christian community, influencing it to move toward the direction of the New Age movement. It works to gather individuals under a moral umbrella that is valid while pushing a political agenda that is a danger. It is particularly dangerous because the Christian community is so large that those affected can constitute a majority of citizens in the US.

The Christian community, being suceptable, like all other communities seem to be, has not been aware enough to develop a viable subculture who are knowledgeable enough to take a stand against Fellowship activity. This is because so many of the individual ministers have been influenced so much by the leadership of their organizations that they no longer think for themselves.

Serious question: Why is it their knowledge of Christianity does not protect them from the fraud perpetrated by the Fellowship?

While disinformation specialists yammer away about Kabbalah and Judaism as being the sole cause of the evils of the world, other things are going on.

As a Jew I am not excusing Jews who do not expose things such as the Fellowship as well as all things associated with the New Age movement. Unfortunately the Jewish community operates in the same way as the Christian community. See the above.

The only thing we here can continue to do is warn our respective communities of what is happening. Christians warn other Christians. Jews warn other other Jews. We should share what we learn to protect the members of our respective communities rather than being distracted by whose beliefs are the best way to get to the afterlife.

We can disagree about whose religious beliefs are the best while helping each other to fight a common enemy.


Anonymous said...


Over the years I've told countless people about NA. I told the man at the tourist bureau at Sedona. I talked to the nurse at the hospital. I posted links back to this blog. The other day I talked to a woman and in the course of saying what I was involved with as a retired person, I told her about NA. I would never have made contact with the Orthodox Jewish community except for the fact that every time I talked with someone I asked if they knew anyone Jewish who might be interested. Because I know how important it is that individuals need information in order to use their free will correctly, I've stuck my neck out knowing that many will see me as strange.

I know that it will take time for most people to encounter something that will cause them to look at other explanations for the problems that our communities are encountering.

Constance has had other come to her because of her writings. I've had to make my own opportunities.

You can also. Here are some suggestions on how to approach people who are not familiar with ideas those who read here consider important
. or


Anonymous said...

Interesting headlines this morning.

US is going to bail out the mortgage agencies. This would cost US taxpayers millions. The alternatives don't look very good either. It looks like the imminent collapse of our financial system is being orchestrated. Some people think this is just greed, but it really looks well-crafted.

Next, Olmert is facing still more corruption charges. Will he be able to keep his job?

Next, OPEC is saying any military action against Iran will mean that oil prices can go to any level.

Last but not least, and this one I will post. Javier Solana is coming to the rescue in negotiations with Iran:

In the meantime it looks like Jordan is quietly preparing to having nuclear power in a few years without any intervention from the West.
MATTHEW 24;3-6
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. “You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

I've sat on the Mt of Olives, and looked toward the East Gate and imagined the day He will return.

If you read the entire chapter of Matthew 24 it is very clear. You don't have to have a Doctorate in Theology,

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. vs 23, 24

The real Messiah, will not have us guessing:
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.vs 29, 30

Dorothy, we don't have to be anxious. We just have to point people to the truth. Not everyone will listen and this is just frustrating, but we are not responsible for that. Look what God said to Ezekiel:

But I have sent you to them who should listen to you; yet the house of Israel will not be willing to listen to you, since they are not willing to listen to Me. Surely the whole house of Israel is stubborn and obstinate Eze 3:6b-7

We must warn them, and leave them in God's hand. That is the only way I'm able to rest in Yeshua, this Shabbat.

Shabbat shalom,

Anonymous said...
Now I'm no longer anxious.


Anonymous said...

Evidence of Teilhard de Chardin's influence on Pope John Paul II:

For those who don't know Chardin, he is considered a "father of the New Age".


Anonymous said...

Based on the last comment in the last thread, it appears there are no standards for this blog. Anything goes as long as the poster produces a hot link occasionally. Good to know.

Constance Cumbey said...

I did a two hour program with Dr. Montieth last night -- most about "The Family" -- we touched lightly upon Solana towards the end as well. He is going to be offering the disks as a set on it. Tonight, I iwlll probably, in addition to my own show at 5 p.m., do a two hour program with Manhattan pastor Leighton Smith, starting at 11:20 p.m. Eastern Time.

THanks for listening!


Constance Cumbey said...


The Prayer Network Breakfast is a vast political influence group with links and tentacles to all levels of power -- they pass themselves off as fundamentalist Christian, but their inner core appears to be decidedly New Age -- what Barbara Marx Hubbard wrote "now all the RESONATING CORE GROUPS with OUTWARDLY DIFFERENT PURPOSES are now merging and blending and coming togetehr to do the ONE WORK.

Now that we have uncovered the inextricable links between the prayer breakfast network and Institute of Noetic Sciences, the answer to your question is becoming increasingly obvious.


Constance Cumbey said...

Personally, I have always been deeply disturbed by the "Hate Constantine" segments --

Up until Constantine, it was perfectly legal to persecute and crucify Christians. I am always very suspicious of people who blame him for ruining Christianity. Most definitely he was not perfect, but then again, neither are the rest of us.


Constance Cumbey said...


That's not fair -- I did erase Bernard Shaul proclaming his Viagra selling "Canadin pharmacy" from here!


Constance Cumbey said...

I am very happy that these fine researchers are on my blogspot although they and sometimes me have serious points of disagreement:


and others

I would be very unhappy if any of them thought they had to leave!

Anonymous said...

Hi Joyce,

I agree with the prophecies you mentioned. We do agree with them. The Eucharist is not the Passover, it's the Pashal Mystery. It's offering up the fruits of the sacrifice. If I say I am washed in the blood of the Lamb, it doesn't me I am re-sacrificing Jesus.

I understan where ur coming from. I grew up Catholic, but never knew much about the faith until recently. We can't expect to be spoonfed. We have to make an attempt to learn to. There are three kinds of Catholics. Conservative, Liberal and Orthodox. We Orthodox are hit by the other two all the time, because we actually know what we believe.

You'r refusal to read the Cathecism/Early Church fathers is not based on lack of evidence, but a hard-heart. We all go through this. The first step is forgiveness.

BTW Martin Luther accepted Marian doctrines and the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. These were only taken out around a 100 years ago, with the birth of denomination after denomination, Christianity began tossing out things.


Anonymous said...

Hi Constance

Wanted to share this information for the record - in light of allegations that the Roman Catholic Church has changed its position on the HERETICAL teachings of Teilhard de Chardin (i.e. evolutionary pantheism, etc.):

I can understand how people can sometimes be misled since the news media - even in Rome - can sometimes slant a story - by way of omission. :-)

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, "Father of the New Age":

"Controversy with Church officials

In 1925, Teilhard was ordered by the Jesuit Superior General Vladimir Ledochowski to leave his teaching position in France and to sign a statement withdrawing his controversial statements regarding the doctrine of original sin. Rather than leave the Jesuit order, Teilhard signed the statement and left for China.

This was the first of a series of condemnations by certain church officials that would continue until long after Teilhard's death. The climax of these condemnations was a 1962 monitum (reprimand) of the Holy Office denouncing his works. From the monitum:

"The above-mentioned works abound in such ambiguities and indeed even serious errors, as to offend Catholic doctrine... For this reason, the most eminent and most revered Fathers of the Holy Office exhort all Ordinaries as well as the superiors of Religious institutes, rectors of seminaries and presidents of universities, effectively to protect the minds, particularly of the youth, against the dangers presented by the works of Fr. Teilhard de Chardin and of his followers.".

Teilhard's writings, though, continued to circulate — not publicly, as he and the Jesuits observed their commitments to obedience, but in mimeographs that were circulated only privately, within the Jesuits, among theologians and scholars for discussion, debate and criticism.

As time passed, it seemed that the works of Teilhard were gradually returning to favor in the church. For example, on June 10, 1981, Cardinal Agostino Casaroli wrote on the front page of the Vatican newpaper, l'Osservatore Romano:

"What our contemporaries will undoubtedly remember, beyond the difficulties of conception and deficiencies of expression in this audacious attempt to reach a synthesis, is the testimomy of the coherent life of a man possessed by Christ in the depths of his soul. He was concerned with honoring both faith and reason, and anticipated the response to John Paul II's appeal: 'Be not afraid, open, open wide to Christ the doors of the immense domains of culture, civilization, and progress."

However, shortly thereafter the Holy See clarified that recent statements by members of the church, in particular those made on the hundredth anniversary of Teilhard's birth, were not to be interpreted as a revision of previous stands taken by the church officials. Thus the 1962 statement remains official church policy to this day."

Here is the text of the original 1962 monitum v. Teilhard, followed by
a 1981 confirmation. Apparently neither Ratzinger nor JP II have
approved of Teilhard sufficiently to reverse previous Vatican

Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office

On June 30, 1962, the Holy Office issued a monitum (warning) regarding
the writings of Father Teilhard de Chardin. In 1981 the Holy See
reiterated this warning against rumors that it no longer
applied. Following is the text of both the monitum and the 1981

"Several works of Fr. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, some of which were
posthumously published, are being edited and are gaining a good deal
of success.

"Prescinding from a judgement about those points that concern the
positive sciences, it is sufficiently clear that the above-mentioned
works abound in such ambiguities and indeed even serious errors, as to
offend Catholic doctrine.

"For this reason, the most eminent and most revered Fathers of the
Holy Office exhort all Ordinaries as well as the superiors of
Religious institutes, rectors of seminaries and presidents of
universities, effectively to protect the minds, particularly of the
youth, against the dangers presented by the works of Fr. Teilhard de
Chardin and of his followers.

"Given at Rome, from the palace of the Holy Office, on the thirtieth
day of June, 1962.

Sebastianus Masala, Notarius"

Communiqué of the Press Office of the Holy See (appearing in the
English edition of L'Osservatore Romano, July 20, 1981)

"The letter sent by the Cardinal Secretary of State to His Excellency
Mons. Poupard on the occasion of the centenary of the birth of
Fr. Teilhard de Chardin has been interpreted in a certain section of
the press as a revision of previous stands taken by the Holy See in
regard to this author, and in particular of the Monitum of the Holy
Office of 30 June 1962, which pointed out that the work of the author
contained ambiguities and grave doctrinal errors.

"The question has been asked whether such an interpretation is well

"After having consulted the Cardinal Secretary of State and the
Cardinal Prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the
Faith, which, by order of the Holy Father,(Pope John Paul II) had been duly consulted
beforehand, about the letter in question, we are in a position to
reply in the negative. Far from being a revision of the previous
stands of the Holy See, Cardinal Casaroli's letter expresses
reservation in various passages^×and these reservations have been
passed over in silence by certain newspapers^×reservations which
refer precisely to the judgement given in the Monitum of June 1962,
even though this document is not explicitly mentioned."

A Catholic Opinion Newsletter
580 South Pear Orchard Road No. 101
Ridgeland, Mississippi 39157


....Not surprisingly, Teilhard apologists and neo-pagans have tried to legitimize their views by misstating the Pope's (John Paul II) October 1996 speech on evolutionary theories to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences entitled `Truth Cannot Contradict Truth' (available on the Internet at -

The Pope, speaking to a group of scientists, stated that `there are arguments in favor of this (evolutionary) theory' but he dismissed such theories apart from a creator. The Pope dismissed Darwinian evolution (i.e. evolution without God). The speech is anti-Darwinian. The speech was not an Encyclical or dogmatic statement but simply an encouragement to scientists to be faithful to God as they pursued "several theories".

Pope John Paul, unlike Teilhard, believes in Original Sin, the existence of Adam, and that Jesus Christ is not a `force of nature' but the God Man who literally died on the Cross and rose again. He told the scientists they were free to pursue `theories' of evolution as long as they realized that God's relationship with man was key. The Pope said, "Man is the only creature on earth that God has wanted for it's own sake" and, "The human individual cannot be subordinated as a pure means or instrument either to a species or a society; he has value per se. He is a person." The Pope reasserted that each person is an independent creation and not merely a cosmic cog in some grand evolutionary scheme. The media of course, reported the opposite...."

Teilhard de Chardin: Rogue Theologian

The French Jesuit Pere Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955) was one of the most well-known theologians of the 20th century. However, his writings were condemned several times by the Holy See. In this essay I shall give a list of the various admonitions received by this author, whose books still enjoy wide circulation.

De Chardin, who attempted to create a fusion of Christianity and evolutionary theory, taught not so much Catholicism as New Age Hinduism, as his teachings were to all in intents and purposes, pantheism (the belief that God is everything). De Chardin was a New Ager, possibly one of the first Catholic clerics to fall into this error, and certainly the most influential. Clearly this view is in no way compatible with Catholic doctrine, and the history of his disputes with Rome bears this out.
( more...)

Anonymous said...

I asked the question to see what others might say.

My answer to the question is that while Christianity or Judaism may tell us how to conduct our lives, they do not fill us in on the details of the world around us. The very fact that the Bible exists should tell us that God saw the need for specifics, for knowledge that can be turned to, for details that can be reviewed, for guidance in determining how to conduct our lives. We are not to get guidance through intuition or from the ether in the air.

So it is with the communities in which we live. We are to work at knowing, to get specifics, to analyze, to face realistically the world around us as the stories used in the Bible are realistic examples of life in those times.

In the Bible we are told somebody did something right, a community did something wrong, specifics.

Why haven't good Christians or Jews caught on to what is happening with the Fellowship or the Institute or New Age? Because they ponder the same stories over and over, never using the guidelines in the Bible to examine the morality of the situations in which they live. They learn about the Bible. They don't learn from the Bible as they don't learn from history.

The New Age movement has hijacked the Bible successfully to make huge numbers of religious people think that the Bible supports the NA cultural agenda. They could do this because the "good" people stopped doing it themselves, stopped applying Biblical lessons to determine what is moral and what is immoral in the world around them, something they stopped doing because they stopped questioning the world around them.


Anonymous said...


Teilhard de Chardin's was excommuincated. Read the Vatican's paper on the New Age.

Joyce, I can post all the evidence in the world, but if you prefer to believe in conspiracy theories and lies, there's nothing else I can do.


Anonymous said...



A Christian reflection
on the “New Age”

GOOD FIND!!! I had completely forgotten about that one!

Anonymous said...


My "refusal" to read the Church Father links, is not a hard heart.... I have read some of the Church Fathers,not from your posts necessarily and also it's a question of time and priorities. I have a busy life outside of this blog and if I read every link and answered every comment, I wouldn't get much else done....

We just have a totally different point of view on the way we see Scripture and history, and it's not likely that we will agree. I don't think that God intended for us to cancel the moedim, but rather to understand them in the light of Yeshua.

BTW, I am not as impressed with Luther, as you may think. He was an anti-semite by the end of his life, and Hitler quoted from him to justify his atrocities. I do understand his contribution, as far as breaking the stranglehold of the RCC though.

As my time permits, I'll try to respond to more of your posts...

I have serious questions about Constantine's conversion and motives. Again, this is a difference in the way I view the historical account of him. Clearly, he did not like Jews.

I'm with Constance. I don't think people need to leave for differences in opinion. Expressing differences, as long as we are polite seems quite normal to me. There are people on the blog who are just a little more sensitive.

I will send some more Teilhard documentation later, maybe not today but soon...


Anonymous said...


Thanks for that great summary of the "straight facts" on Teilhard's standing in the Roman Catholic Church.

It's amazing the propaganda and falsehoods that otherwise "intelligent" people at this website, intent in reinforcing their own prejudices against the Catholic Church, are inclined to believe about it!

If these same people actually knew where their Bible came from, they wouldn't be so "cocky." Resisting this knowledge is far easier, from an emotional standpoint, than facing the facts squarely and rejecting the Catholic faith on its merits.

As Cardinal Newman said, "To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant." Indeed.

Anonymous said...


No one "needs" to leave this website because of a difference in opinion.

I did notice Rudi's been very quiet since she was very justly chastised the other day. Maybe this experience has given her time to reflect on her own actions.

If they stay and post, they stay and post of their own free will.

If they leave and stop posting, they do so of their own free will.

Let's stop confusing this blog with North Korea.

Anonymous said...

Has anyone seen this?

I am not pointing fingers at the RCC, because this is pervasive. It is seen in every denomination. It almost made me tear up. Those who have never known God will be saved based upon God's own judgement? Paul states that no one is without knowledge, however for a priest to agree and say that a rabi or christian that lives a good life without belief in Jesus Christ is saved is of the anti-christ.

Something is happening sooner than we could imagine.

Hope I make sense.

JB in CO

Anonymous said...

From the Economist: Europe should look south.

Anonymous said...


Catholics absolutely agree that Jesus is the only mediator between Man and God. Let us examine two scenarios of a love relationship.

Scenario 1: If someone falls in love and they say:

I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend all my time with you. I never want to talk to your mother. I never want to see your family or friends. I want you to banish them when they come around, I just want to spend my whole life with you and love you.

That's how we understand the Evangelical take on a relationship to Jesus.

Scenario 2: On the other hand he could say

I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend my time with you. Your mom is welcome to visit our home. Your family is my family, your friends are my friends. The people you love, I will love. We are one flesh and I welcome everyone you welcome.

Early Church quotes about Peter as the Rock

"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).

"There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle…In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement's epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: To-day we have passed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.' Dionysius of Corinth, To Pope Soter (A.D. 171).

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

You can also see Catholic Timeline:20-500 A.D.


Anonymous said...

JD, not to question your sincerity but I just can't take that website seriously. It's just too much theological silliness devoid of any analysis.

It reminds me of a comment I heard by Ingrid Schlueter a couple of months ago. She was speaking on the radio about the topic (I paraphrase from memory) of "Protestants who are converting to Catholicism: A Bewildering Trend."

In her penetrating analysis, Ingrid concluded something to the effect that "These people just seem to prefer rituals, long robes, and pointy hats to the Truth."

Not a particularly penetrating theological analysis.

Anonymous said...

Sorry that should have been to "JB" not "JD"

Apologies JB in Co.

Anonymous said...


Great post. Personally speaking I don't care if someone is Protestant or Catholic, but it really gets under my skin when people spread false information about the Catholic Church, like "Catholics worship a dead woman named Mary" (as one of the posters here claimed a couple of months back).

I suppose the idea that "Jews have horns" is equally plausible to these highly irrational people?

I don't know if you've heard of Dawn Eden. She is a recent convert to Catholicism, and she wrote beautifully about her experience of hearing the Litany of Saints read out at the funeral of Pope John Paul II. I cannot find it the article on the internet (should have archived it at source!) but I will keep looking for it.

Nonetheless here is a post Dawn wrote around the same time about how she struggled with the notion of the saints. It is not as good as the "litany" one but it gives a very straightforward theological explanation of the role of the saints, and dovetails nicely with your excellent analogy.

Anonymous said...


I'll refer to you to "Copernicus and the Jews" by Daniel Gruber again. Until we can clear up some of differences in vocabulary, we are not speaking the same language. The very premise that you base your trust in the RCC is flawed from the beginning, in my opinion. You can quote me Church fathers, but this won't change my opinion. I quoted you Scripture, not historical writings. You are not quoting from the Scriptures, so lets go back to the Scriptures and see what Rav Shaul says about "the rock" and he says it's Yeshua. The reason that Moses didn't get to go into Israel is because he hit the rock instead of speaking to it...Now why would HaShem want Moses to speak to the Rock unless the Rock would produce the Living Water? On the Rock who producing the Living Water, Yeshua will build His called-out assembly and the gates of hell will not prevail..

Simon Kefa was apostle mainly to the Jews and Paul mainly to the nations....They were never called fathers in the Scriptures and Clement's writings are not authoritative. By the time the Apostles die and Jews are kicked out of the synagogues, the new believers lose the hebraic understanding of the faith and have strong influences from Greek culture. If the "church fathers" were inspired, their writings would have been called Scriptures, but the fact is they are not.

The assembly at Jerusalem was where Yacov the brother of Yeshua made some of the decisions about how the believers coming from the nations, most of whom by the way were already god fearers and as such were familiar with the Temple and synagogue system. They were going to go to the synagogue on Shabbat and hear Torah. At a certain point, believers were thrown out of synagogues, but God never told them to stop honoring Sabbath and the rest of His commands. You cannot not show me one Scripture that says the fourth commandment was canceled or changed, and the Catholic Church knows this.

If you want to start quoting to me from the Dead Sea Scrolls and Josephus, we might have a more fruitful discussion. I'm not saying that all that the "church fathers" said was wrong. I'm saying it was flawed because of the hellenistic thinking. The further the faith moved from the original context of Jerusalem, the more difficult it was for the early believers to understand Torah. The dividing wall was broken through Yeshua, ( see Ephesians 2) was quickly re-established by the gentile believers.

Yeshua lived out Torah perfectly. He didn't establish a church. He went to the Temple. He taught at the synagogues. He ate kosher. He observed the moedim perfectly, by doing the good works God intended us to on Shabbat, etc. He rejected the traditions of the Jews who had added to the Word of God, in the same way that He would reject the traditions of the church fathers who did the same thing about a century later. The Jews of 2nd Temple Judaism, at least the leaders, had added quite a bit of tradition. We can see this kind of tradition in some of Judaism today too. We'll all have our traditions, but when the traditions distort the message of truth, instead of enhancing it then they are no longer good....or when the salt loses its saltiness it is no good..Salt preserves. It doesn't destroy and distort.

Unfortunately, some of the Jewish leaders zealousness for their traditions, prevented these corrupt leaders from recognizing the Torah, that had come in the flesh. In Catholicism the traditions have themselves become a religion. Yeshua didn't come to bring religion. He came to bring us into relationship with the Father, to cleanse us from sin and to give us a new identity in Him. This is very different from religion. Religion is our human efforts to clean ourselves up. Yeshua's blood was all that was necessary. In Him we have life. Life is not dead religion. When I walk into a Catholic church with all of its statues ( forbidden in Torah) and see all the candles and holy water and the crucifix with Yeshua ( if that's even what He looked like) still on it, I frankly get the creeps. Europe is filled with this cathedrals, many designed by the Templers or Masons. I could go on and on and on.

Savvy, you may believe in Yeshua's atoning work for your sins, to which I will say great, but If you do, then allow God's Spirit to work in your life and lead you in all truth..As Him does He really want you bowing before statues, and calling the pope the Holy Father and praying to Mary. All you have to do is read the Bible and you will find the answers to these questions. You are so attached to the traditions, you may not be hearing God's Word and His Voice. I'm not against you, but I do pray that rather than sending me a bunch of articles defending Catholicism, you would ask the question.....who is the Rock of our Salvation. It's Yeshua.
2Sam. 22:47 “The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock;
And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,

Psa. 28:1 ¶ To You, O LORD, I call;
My rock, do not be deaf to me,
For if You are silent to me,
I will become like those who go down to the pit.

"Oh Lord, my rock." much clearer does it get? If the foundation is flawed, the whole house will be, so just keep that in mind. YHVH and Yeshua are echad (one). He is the rock of our salvation. His name means salvation. Yeshua ( salvation is of God).

1Cor. 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

to the anonymous person who wrote a remark about Rudi, maybe Rudi is just busy. Did that ever occur to you?


Anonymous said...

JB in CO

I recall that story and there was a big flap over well there should be if Cardinal Tauran meant what many thought he meant.

What Cardinal Tauran did mean was that all religions should be regarded as "equal" similar to the way in which they are regarded as "equal" in this country.....equal before the law and in terms of civil rights.("render unto Caesar....")

But in terms of objective truth, to say that all religions are "equal" - apart from said equality before the law - is to fall into the error of "religious indifferentism." - i.e. "one religion is as good as another."

And that is simply not true.

Here is the context of Cardinal Tauran's statement:

At the end of the day, one may not agree with DOMINUS JESUS, but neither can he accuse the encyclical's author of peddling religious indifferentism.

Anonymous said...

One more quick comment...Today's Torah portion is about Balak trying have Balaam curse Israel. If you remember the donkey saw the "angel of the Lord" and stopped Balaam. Balaam could not curse because God would not let him. In the end what happens....Israel mixes with Moab and "plays the harlot". In the Book of Revelations, God is speaking to the assembly at Pergamum and says that He has this against them:

Rev. 2:14 ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

Point of the story is that Balaam could not curse Israel because God wouldn't let him, but if he got Israel to mix with the people, he knew they would begin to worship different gods. Whenever we mix God's Word, with other things, even if they seem good....we get into trouble..

In Catholicism, and some of Protestantism, there's been a lot of mixing....We are called to be a holy set apart people. That's what the ekklesia's not a building with a steeple or a pope, etc. It's a people who have been called out to worship the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who sent Yeshua to give us access to His throne, by forgiving our sins.

Shabbat shalom,

Anonymous said...

Please do not put my contributions regarding the New Age movement equal to those of Joyce. I find that insulting.


Anonymous said...

Don't sweat it. I'm not in competition with you. You can have all the glory...


Anonymous said...


Have you gotten through all the links yet that I posted for you on The Family?

Here is another piece of information on The Family I thought you might find interesting.....a "French Connection"......Hmmmmmmmm

"Edmond Michelet (Paris, October 8, 1899 – October 9, 1970 in Brive) was a French politician.

He helped many victims of the Nazis in occupied France, including Catholic philosopher Dietrich von Hildebrand. In 1943 he was arrested and incarcerated at the Dachau concentration camp where he assisted other prisoners during a typhus epidemic and was infected himself. When Dachau was liberated he was still aiding the sick and the last to leave.

He was made minister of the Army by Charles de Gaulle in 1946.

He served as Minister of Justice from 1959 to 1961.

Michelet was the main collaborator of Abraham Vereide, the leader of the Family fundamentalist organisation, based in the United States.

But in his thirties, my father came to know a great Norwegian immigrant
named Abraham Vereide, who finally prevailed on him to "pioneer" in Europe
the strange new idea of a "Prayer Breakfast," a gathering of lay and
episcopal leaders of all Christian denominations to pray together and
discuss Christ in their practical lives. This very ecumenical movement led
my father to contact the retired Queen Wilhelmina of The Netherlands and
begin adapting this idea to European culture.

He was involved in many of the political developments of Europe following
the Second World War, a friend of government officials throughout the
continent before, during, and after they were in office. He brought Edmond
Michelet together with the struggling Prime Minister of France, Pierre
Pflimlin, in May of 1958, using their common devotion to Jesus as a bridge
toward reconciliation. The fact that Edmond Michelet convinced Pflimlin to
resign in favor of de Gaulle was a political result of the intervention of

Now why would a French politician have been the main collaborator of Abraham Vereide in a religious organization based in the United States? Inquiring minds want to know.

Anonymous said...


There are many people who are finely tuned to the sins of others but perfectly indulgent regarding their own serious faults.

Just something for you and Rudi to think about while you are keeping busy.

Anonymous said...

Joyce, It's interesting that you think in terms of glory while I think in terms of important contributions. No glory comes from the hard work involved in researching the New Age movement. Perhaps you are too new to the community of researchers to know that.


Young Grasshopper said...

Hi everyone,
Thanks Susanna for your help with the links yesterday. I used every one of them!

When you get into battles with these New Age people, it absolutely consumes all of your time. I lost a whole week of productivity!

Haven't had a chance to read the comments here yet, but I rec'd this in an email over a week ago (just reading my mail, too!) and wondered if anyone else here (especially Constance since she's an attorney) knew if it were true or had heard anything about it?

If some else has already brought it up, I apologize.


It seems that Barack Obama may not be qualified to be president after all, for
the following reason:

Barack Obama is not legally a U.S. natural-born citizen according to the law
on the books at the time of his birth, which falls between "December 24,
1952 to November 13, 1986.

U.S. Law very clearly stipulates: "If only one parent was a U.S. citizen at
the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States
for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of
16." Barack Obama's father was not a U.S. citizen and Obama's mother was
only 18 when Obama was born, which means though she had been a U.S. citizen
for 10 years, (or citizen perhaps because of Hawaii being a territory) the
mother fails the test for being so, for at least 5 years **prior to** Barack
Obama's birth, but *after* age 16. It doesn't matter *after* .

In essence, Obama's Mother was not old enough to qualify her son for automatic U.S.
Citizenship. At most, there were only 2 years elapsed since his mother
turned 16 at the time of Barack Obama's birth, when she was 18, in Hawaii. His
mother would hav e needed to have been 16+5= 21 years old, at the time of
Barack Obama's birth for him to have been a natural-born citizen. As
aforementioned, she was a young college student at the time. Barack Obama
was already 3 years old at that time his mother would have needed to have
waited to have him as the only U.S. Citizen parent. Obama instead should
have been naturalized, but even then, that would still disqualify him from
holding the office.

*** Naturalized citizens are ineligible to hold the office of President. ***
Though Barack Obama was sent back to Hawaii at age 10, all the other info
does not matter because his mother is the one who needed to have been a U.S.
citizen for 10 years prior to his birth on August 4, 1961, with 5 of those
years being after age 16. Further, Obama may have had to have remained in
the country for some time to protect any citizenship he would h ave had,
rather than living in Indonesia . Now you can see why Obama's aides stopped
his speech about how we technically have more than 50 states, because it would have led to this discovery

This is very clear cut and a blaring violation of U.S. election law. I think
the Gov. of California would be very interested in knowing this if Obama
were elected President without being a natural-born U.S. citizen, and it
would set precedence.

Stay tuned to your TV sets because I suspect some of this information will
be leaking through over the next several days.

Thomas Sowell
Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow
The Hoover Institution
Stanford University
Stanford, California 94305

Anonymous said...

I think your question is answered later on in the link.

:In preparation for going to Europe, Dr. Abraham Vereide gave Wallace a
direct and simple charge-Go to a city, see what God is doing there, relate
yourself to what He is doing. Then repeat the same approach in another
city, and in time relate the persons involved in each place to one another.
By this process, a web of relationships developed around Jesus throughout
Europe, both on the continent and in the United Kingdom."

I found an interesting book that I would recommend to others.
French Connections: Networks of Influence (Paperback)
by Sophie Coignard (Author), Marie-Therese Guichard (Author), Keith Torjoc (Translator)

Not everyone connected with a network is completely aware of the goals of the founders of a network. Some are courted and used because of the contacts they have.


Anonymous said...


I understand where ur coming from. The Dead Sea Scrolls tell us a lot about Judaism, but not a lot about the early church, and there was a Church. The fathers are not the final word, however due to their close proximity to the events they should be consulted and also since they decided what books should be in the Bible. Many of them were trained by the disciples themselves. Ignitius of Antioch was the disciple of John, Polycarp was a disciple of Peter and Paul.

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

"And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."

In these verses, we see the following. First, Jesus builds His Church (“ecclesia”) upon the person of Peter. As we learned in the previous link on The Church, Jesus changes Simon's name to "Kepha," and says that on this "Kepha" He will build the Church. Kepha, in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), means a massive rock formation, and Jesus' use of Kepha to rename Peter signifies Peter's foundational leadership in the Church. (See also Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 where Jesus renames Simon "Cephas" which is a transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha.").

1 Timothy 3:15
"If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

Most Protestants believe that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and no knowledge outside of the Bible is necessary for our salvation. But then why does Saint Paul write that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth? This is a powerful text that refutes the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) which erroneously holds that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth (a theory which cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures). Instead, Saint Paul says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

III. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

As we have discussed, Protestants believe that Christians are to follow the Scriptures alone as their sole source of Christian truth (sola Scriptura). But then why does Saint Paul tell us to follow both the Scriptures and the oral word? Isn't Paul adding something else to follow in addition to the Bible?

John 20:22-23
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

Protestants believe that Christians should confess their sins privately to God, and not to a priest. Why, then, does Jesus give the apostles the authority to forgive and retain sins?

VI. John 6:53-58, 66-67
"So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.' After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, 'Will you also go away?'"

Most Protestants believe that the bread and wine offered by the Catholic priest in the Holy Mass are only symbols of Christ's body and blood. They do not believe that Christians have to actually eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life. They do not believe that Christ's flesh is actual food, and His blood actual drink. Why, then, does Jesus repeatedly say in these verses that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood or we have no life in us? Why does Christ say that His flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed, if His flesh and blood really aren't food and drink indeed?

Anointing of the Sick

VIII. James 5:14-15
"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

While Protestants usually have some type of rebuttal for most Scriptures that support Catholic teaching (which can always be disproved), they generally have little to say about James 5:14-15. Most Protestants tuck this verse away, never to deal with it again. This is because there is no place to put it in their Protestant theology. It doesn't fit anywhere.

I can give you more Biblical evidence for Catholicsm, just ask me the questions. The only thing is we might be here for a very long time, so I'll recommend a website, where you can find the answers.


Anonymous said...

Can anyone find any of these words in the Bible ?

holy See
Mother of God ( wouldn't that make her God? )
Marian theology
Marian apparition

Anonymous said...


Dawn Eden is awesome. I read her blog from time to time.


Anonymous said...

Ok - may I ask a question of all?
Is there a position that perhaps some of "us" can take and establish between each other that we do not agree with one another's positon regarding subject __insert issue here____ ? And perhaps not until it is explained to both of us by the Lord Jesus Christ?
If I know and remember that whomever believes "X" - then a discussion may occur regarding that - but not a pervasive continual overtone of finding a bigger rock - and, for the record, I am not catholic (but I am not "protesting" anything so would you still call me a "prodestant"? - joke - just kidding - )
I was raised catholic and was even an alter boy, cathecism - the whole 9 yards, I left it by my own choice.
I trust and beleive in the risen One, Lord jesus Christ and His sacrafice on the cross He bore for my forgiveness - praise His Holy Name - and I can still be friends and friendly to those who believe otherwise.
NOW - that is my starting point - and :-)


Anonymous said...

Hi Paul

Looks like another battle of "good versus evil" (or, as Setterman might say, "us versus them.")

Got popcorn?


Anonymous said...

Doug, anyone that reads here with any regularity knows you are a former Catholic. That doesn't make your past bad behavior toward Catholics at this blog "OK."

You have by no means been the worst offender, but you have exhibited a real lack of charity toward Catholics here on more than one occasion. You have not been "friendly" and you have stood by either in silence, or with encouraging words, while others were downright mean and nasty.

Anonymous said...

To Dorothy 3:13 regarding Constance's post:

See "All Must Have Prizes" by Melanie Phillips.

Anonymous said...

Your lieing about Doug. He does not have a mean spirit as you do. You and your pals are the ones who've tried to isolate anyone who believes the Holy Bible.
You've tried to isolate Joyce and Rudi.
You are subversive and it's you that drives wedges (or attempt to ) into these discussions.
You've never been persecuted. Your name is Anonymous. No one has ever persecuted anonymous.
Yet you cry foul.
What about Protestant baiting ?
What about fundamentalist bashing ?
Fundamental Protestants are the ones that the New Agers really hate and they've made it clear.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:10
Checked it out through a websearch. Your response was very succinct. You got it. Thanks.


Anonymous said...


I've never seen an Anonymous here claim they were being "persecuted." Someone reminded Joyce earlier today, don't confuse this blog with North Korea. That's something to keep in mind.

"Persecution" and religious bigotry are not the same things but they are both sinful, and they both diminish the one who engages in them.


Anonymous said...

Religious and spiritual criticism
"Some adherents of traditional disciplines from cultures such as India, China, and elsewhere; a number of orthodox schools of Yoga, Tantra, Qigong, Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda and martial arts (the traditional Taijiquan families, for example), groups with histories reaching back many centuries in some cases, eschew the Western label New Age, seeing the movement it represents as either not fully understanding or deliberately trivializing their disciplines, or as outright distortions.[45]

"Much of the strongest criticism of New Age eclecticism has come from American Indian writers and communities. The Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality[46] is one of the strongest statements of opprobrium from traditional tribal religious leaders...."

No mention of Christians or Jews criticizing the New Age movement. What happened? In the '80s the Christian community was alive with concern about the growing paganism. No longer. Even here where Christians have a chance to expose the growing paganism, what do we see? Major arguments about theology.

The only hope we have in fighting the NA movement is understanding where the battle is and exposing it. In Germany a group of Christians knew this and fought the Nazi movement because they recognized the paganism in it. Not enough people joined with them.

The book:
Like a Mighty Army: Hitler Versus Established Religion (Hardcover)
by George N. Shuster (Author) 1935

History is repeating itself.


Anonymous said...


You are right in so far as it partly answered my question, but I was hinting at the possibility of a hidden agenda for which devotion to Jesus was merely used as a front......

The Hieron du Val'D'Or operated similarly.

You got it right in saying:

"Not everyone connected with a network is completely aware of the goals of the founders of a network. Some are courted and used because of the contacts they have."

This is similar to the way in which some of the more sinister Masonic organizations work. It is possible for a decent man to join the Blue Lodge in good faith without being aware of the Masonic agenda in the higher "red" or "black" degrees.

Anonymous said...

"What about Protestant baiting ? What about fundamentalist bashing ?"

What about it Paul? No doubt it exists, but not at this particular blog. Heaven knows the temptation must be there though when you make yourself such an easy target.

Hats off to the Catholics who post here for their self-control in not allowing Paul to provoke them.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:51

Does this mean that Roman Catholics should avoid this comments section as a "mere occasion of sin" ?


Anonymous said...

Young Grasshopper,

Interesting that you found that law. As far as I know, it is true. I am a naturalized citizen because my father is not a US citizen and my mother who is was 16 when they married and left the country. I was not able to claim citizenship through her, and had to be naturalized.

However, this is only because I was not born in the US. If Obama was born in the US, then I believe no matter what his parents citizenship is, he is automatically a born citizen.

Very interesting loopholes there are.


Anonymous said...

Can anyone find any of these words in the Bible ?

holy See
Mother of God ( wouldn't that make her God? )
Marian theology
Marian apparition
Paul can you find the Words

Sola Scriptura
etc in the Bible?


Anonymous said...

There has been much discussion about Obama's birth certificate on the net. Some have said the one produced is a phoney. Over at lgf they say no, it's a valid copy. So far Obama has not produced a valid copy of his birth certificate. Just put "Obama birth certificate" into a websearch.

This is not the only information that Obama refuses to make public. I'll find the information later.


Anonymous said...

Fundamental Protestants are the ones that the New Agers really hate and they've made it clear.
Nope, you need to read Deepak Chopra's book "The Third Jesus". He calls the Age of Aquarius the 3rd reformation, since the Protestant was the 2nd vis-a-vis Judaism. He goes on to add that things like abortion, homosexulaity, are not found in the Bible. He blames Catholic Church for Christian opposition to them and for imposing the Jewish Law on moral issues.


Anonymous said...


You said:

"In Germany a group of Christians knew this and fought the Nazi movement because they recognized the paganism in it. Not enough people joined with them."

Those were the good Christians but have you ever studied the history of the "German Christian Movement" of Nazi Germany?

"In a further attempt to synchronize religious thought with state policy, the Nazis sought, unsuccessfully, to establish a unified national church. Hitler appointed a Reich Bishop, Ludwig Mueller, who led a "German Christian" movement within the church. Mueller sought to synthesize Nazi ideology and Protestant tradition and to agitate for a "people's church" based on "good Aryan blood." This movement had gained 600,000 adherents by the mid-1930s. The Nazi government also attempted to supplant Christian worship with secular Nazi party celebrations which adopted many symbols of religious ritual but instead glorified the party and the Fuehrer. Efforts were also made to dilute clerical influence on religious instruction in the public schools, as well as to curb the activities and influence the curricula of religious schools.

In 1933, a small group of Protestant clergy formed the Pastors' Emergency League. Founded by Martin Niemöller, the league took a stand against Nazi domination of the church. In 1934, the League's leaders founded the Confessing Church, representing a minority of all Protestant pastors in Germany. Its ideology was to resist Nazi coercion and to expose the moral hollowness of the pro-Nazi "German Christian" movement. The Confessing Church did not, however, protest Nazi racial or social policies. Although a very small number of individual German theologians--such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer--opposed the regime, throughout the Nazi era the vast majority of the Protestant church leadership did not challenge the state's discriminatory legislation and more...

I have Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book THE COST OF DISCIPLESHIP. Bonhoeffer's discipleship cost him his life. He is included among the "Flossenberg Martyrs."

Anonymous said...


I will answer you within your text, which is the only way to keep track of what you said:

I understand where ur coming from. The Dead Sea Scrolls tell us a lot about Judaism, but not a lot about the early church, and there was a Church. The fathers are not the final word

my response:
No one said that the "church fathers" should not be read. They provide historical information, especially about what went wrong by the 2nd & 3rd century. What I am saying is that you should compare what the apostles did and said to what developed, and you will see big differences.. I believe in God sovereignly permitted this, but that doesn't mean it's ideal. Just like Second Temple Judaism was not ideal. Papal authority just as one small example, is TOTALLY unsubstantiated by any Biblical texts.

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22
"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

my response:
I've already answered the "on this rock business" in my last post. Yeshua is the Rock....There are over 100 passages in the Bible with the word rock, most are speaking directly about the LORD. The problem is that the "qahal" had already started back at Mt. Sinai, and the rock was already there too...Moses had the gospel preached to him and he looked forward.. The apostles saw His day.

"And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."

my response:
"Binding and losing" was a Jewish expression for determining halacha. Yeshua and Peter were first century Jews and would have understood this...

In these verses, we see the following. First, Jesus builds His Church (“ecclesia”) upon the person of Peter. As we learned in the previous link on The Church, Jesus changes Simon's name to "Kepha," and says that on this "Kepha" He will build the Church. Kepha, in Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke), means a massive rock formation, and Jesus' use of Kepha to rename Peter signifies Peter's foundational leadership in the Church. (See also Mark 3:16 and John 1:42 where Jesus renames Simon "Cephas" which is a transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha.").

my response:
Again, this is a big leap. If "the Lord" was the Rock, did he suddenly give Peter the same status as Himself? I won't post all 80 or 90 of them, but you can look for yourself.

1 Timothy 3:15
"If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

my response:
I'm not sure what this proves. We know that church = ekklesia= assembly and Paul is writing an epistle which is simply a letter to discuss a particular situation in a particular place. We need to be careful not to take Paul's epistles out of context. Interpreting that as a mandate for the Catholic Church is really stretching the normal grammatical/historical rules of interpretation.

Most Protestants believe that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and no knowledge outside of the Bible is necessary for our salvation. But then why does Saint Paul write that the Church, and not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth? This is a powerful text that refutes the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) which erroneously holds that the Bible is the sole source of Christian truth (a theory which cannot be found anywhere in the Scriptures). Instead, Saint Paul says the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

my response:
Paul talks about the traditions or customs in this way:

Paul lived like a Jew, although he would not have said following Judaism was a means of salvation.

That's just plainly not true. There is verse after verse about keeping God's Word.

Psa. 1:2 But his delight is in the Torah of the LORD,
And in His Torah he meditates day and night.
Psa. 1:3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.

Rev. 22:18 ¶ I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

III. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

As we have discussed, Protestants believe that Christians are to follow the Scriptures alone as their sole source of Christian truth (sola Scriptura). But then why does Saint Paul tell us to follow both the Scriptures and the oral word? Isn't Paul adding something else to follow in addition to the Bible?

my response:
If Paul were following the oral word, it would be the traditions of his fathers. Read the following:

Acts 28:17 ¶ After three days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “Brethren, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

John 20:22-23
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

Protestants believe that Christians should confess their sins privately to God, and not to a priest. Why, then, does Jesus give the apostles the authority to forgive and retain sins?

my response:
Only God can forgive sin. Again, this doesn't mean that the Apostles themselves forgave the sin. God did, but used them as ministers of reconciliation, which we all are if we walk in the truth.

VI. John 6:53-58, 66-67
"So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.' After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, 'Will you also go away?'"

my response:
"eat my flesh and drink my blood" is a Jewish euphemism.

Most Protestants believe that the bread and wine offered by the Catholic priest in the Holy Mass are only symbols of Christ's body and blood. They do not believe that Christians have to actually eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life. They do not believe that Christ's flesh is actual food, and His blood actual drink. Why, then, does Jesus repeatedly say in these verses that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood or we have no life in us? Why does Christ say that His flesh is food indeed, and His blood is drink indeed, if His flesh and blood really aren't food and drink indeed?

my response:
There is no such thing as a Mass, in the very carefully. Yeshua was performing the Passover meal....not "Eucharist".
Anointing of the Sick

VIII. James 5:14-15
"Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."

my response:
I believe we should anoint the sick with oil. Just don't believe that it is a "sacrament". No problem with elders anointing the sick and praying for them.

While Protestants usually have some type of rebuttal for most Scriptures that support Catholic teaching (which can always be disproved), they generally have little to say about James 5:14-15. Most Protestants tuck this verse away, never to deal with it again. This is because there is no place to put it in their Protestant theology. It doesn't fit anywhere.

I can give you more Biblical evidence for Catholicsm, just ask me the questions. The only thing is we might be here for a very long time, so I'll recommend a website, where you can find the answers.

my response:
you cannot. I do not believe in the validity or authority of the Catholic Church. I'm not interested in Catholicism. I think it is a bit cult-like in many respects. I was brought up in it and did all the things that one does early in life, but when I arrived at the age where I could made my own decisions, I utterly rejected it and still do. The Bible I read, has nothing to do with a Roman Catholic Church, but any time you would like to learn about the Hebrew roots of your faith and attach yourself to the Olive tree called Israel, the called out assembly.....feel free to ask me questions. I'll be delighted to answer. For now, I think we've taken up enough of the blog with this discussion though. Joyce

Anonymous said...


A few points on the early church. Messianic Judaism groups are around 50 year old, their theology does not fit the one in the early church. Most of the Early Church Fathers were Jews.

You can't accuse them of hijacking Christianity, because they Were the only Christianity, until the Gnostics came and all.

We see in the book of Acts a powerful movement to establish the Church in Rome. That is where the book of Acts finishes. St. Luke states, “This is how we finally came to Rome” (Acts 28:14).

Meanwhile in Jerusalem in 70 AD a great persecution made the Church almost completely inactive there until about 130 AD.

"...'for in him we live and move and have our being.'
As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' "
(Acts 16:28)

Here Paul quotes the Greek poet Epimenides (500BC) and Aratus (300 BC)

Yes, Greek philosophy is found in the Bible!

Paul quotes the Greek Philosopher Aratus in Titus 1:12 when he was trying to convert the Greeks. "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons."

Let's examine Paul's dialogue with the Greek philosophers.

In Athens ...[Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, ...A group of Epicurean and Stoic [Greek] philosophers began to dispute with him ... brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean."(Acts 17:18-20)

So Paul answered them.

..."Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you...From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. (Acts 17:22-28)

A lot of Greek Philosophers were Proto-Christian. They were on a quest for God and Paul understood this. Yeshua completes ALL philosophy.

Paul often talks to the Jews and Greeks in his midst together. (Rom 10:12, Gal 3:28, Col 3:11)

Rejection of all Greek philosophy because non Christians stumbled on these Truths before the time of Christ would be ridiculous.

Augustine and Aquinas recognized the truth in some of these philosophies such as there cannot be morals without absolutes. They rejected what was wrong.

The de-hellenization of Christianity is the reason why so many Christians are so irrational today. Aquinas could argue his opponents positions better than they could argue their own. They were thus won over and converted to Christ.

God is not stupid and is not against reason.


Anonymous said...


I will respond to your questions.

"Binding and losing" was a Jewish expression for determining halacha. Yeshua and Peter were first century Jews and would have understood this...

22:15 (Shebna) you have cut out a tomb here for yourself ... in the rock? ...I will thrust you from your office....22:20 On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah, 21 and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him. I will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and no one shall shut; he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his ancestral house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his ancestral house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons.

In the Isaiah passage, Shebna was the Chancellor (like a Prime Minister) under King Hezekiah. This Prime Minister had a special role above the cabinet. He got the keys to the kingdom. Shabna messed up and was unfaithful so God appointed Eliakim to Prime Minister and gave him the keys. In Mat 16:18, Peter got the keys just the way Eliakim got them in Isaiah 22:15-24.

Next to Jesus, Peter is mentioned more than any other apostle in Scripture (152 times).

He stood up and spoke on behalf of the apostles (Mt 19:27, Acts 1:15, 2:14)

He stood up at the birth of the Church at the Pentecost to lead them. (Acts 2:14)

The disciples were referred to as Peter and the Apostles. (Acts 2:37, 5:29)

Peter was given the authority to forgive sins before the rest of the apostles. (Mat 16:18)

He was always named first when the apostles were listed (Matthew 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13) -- sometimes it was only "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32);

John ran ahead of Peter to the tomb but upon arriving he stopped and did not go in. He waited and let Peter go in. (Jn 20:4)

Peter stepped out of the boat in the middle of the storm, even though they were all afraid they would die in the storm. (Mat 14:29)

Jesus told Peter to "feed my lambs...tend my sheep... feed my sheep." (Jn 21:15-17) The difference between a sheep and a lamb might be significant. A lamb is a baby, a sheep is an adult. Perhaps Jesus was asking Peter to take care of both the general people (the lambs), and the apostles (sheep). Regardless of that interpretation of sheep and lambs, is is clear Jesus is asking Peter to feed and tend his flock. That is what a shepherd does. It appears to me that he is asking Peter to shepherd his Church on earth, on his behalf.

Only God can forgive sin. Again, this doesn't mean that the Apostles themselves forgave the sin. God did, but used them as ministers of reconciliation, which we all are if we walk in the truth.

It's true that only God can forgive sins. However the presence of a priesthood is found even in the Old Testament.

Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

There is no such thing as a Mass, in the very carefully. Yeshua was performing the Passover meal....not "Eucharist".


The entire Mass format of the Mass is taken from the Bible. Read all these verses in order.

Mt 28:19
I Chron 16:36
II Cor 13:13

James 5:16
Rom 12:16; James 3:6

I Thes 5:25

I Jn 1:9

Tobit 8:4; I Tim 1:2;Psm 51

Lk. 2:14

Rev 19:6
Rev 22:9; Eph 5:20; Rev 7:2

II Jn 3; Phil 2:11; Jn 1:29

Rom 8:34
Lk 4:34; Lk 1:32

Jn 14:26
II Cor 1:2

Deut 6:4 Gen 14:19 Gen 1:1
Jn 3:16 Acts 2:36
Lk 1:35
Matt 1:22-23
Jn 19:1-2
Jn 19:17-19
I Pe 3:18-19
I Cor 15:3-4
Mk 16:19

Acts 10:42. II Tim 4:1
Acts 2:17 Rom 5:5
Mt. 16:18. Rom 12:5
Rev 7:9
Jn 20:23
Rom 8, 11
Rev 22:5
Rev 22:20

I Tim 2:1-2

Acts 4:35 - II Cor 9:12-13

Eccl 3:14 Sirach 17

Jn 6:35
Psm 68, 36

Lk 22:17-18

Psm 68:36

Heb 12:28

Psm 50:23

II Cor 1:2
Lam 3:41
Col 3:17
Col 1:

Is 6:3 . Rev 4:8

Mk 11:9-10

II Mac 14:36
Phil 2:8 Jn 10:17-18

Mk 14:22-25 Mt 14:22-25 Lk 22:19-20. I Cor 11:23-25

Acts 2:23-24 / I Cor 15, 3-4
Rev 22:17 22:20

Jn 6:51

I Cor 10:17

Eph 6:18

II Mac 12:45-46
I Cor 15, 20-23. 29-30

2 Tes 1:4-5.
Rev 7:9-15

Heb 9:15
I Cor 12:12-13
Rev 7:12

Mt. 6:9-13
Jn 17:15

Rev 5:12-13

Jn 14:27
Jn 20.19

Rom 16:16

Jn 1:29

Rev 9:9

Mat 8:8

II Cor 1:2

Lk 24:51

Lk 7:50

II Cor 9:15

you cannot. I do not believe in the validity or authority of the Catholic Church. I'm not interested in Catholicism. I think it is a bit cult-like in many respects. I was brought up in it and did all the things that one does early in life, but when I arrived at the age where I could made my own decisions, I utterly rejected it and still do. The Bible I read, has nothing to do with a Roman Catholic Church, but any time you would like to learn about the Hebrew roots of your faith and attach yourself to the Olive tree called Israel, the called out assembly.....feel free to ask me questions. I'll be delighted to answer. For now, I think we've taken up enough of the blog with this discussion though.
...................................If you don't won't to believe in something that's your personal choice, just don't blame it on the lack of Biblical/historical evidence for it.Or because the interpretations of your particular denomination contradict factual evidence.

Since ur not willing to be intellectually honest. This discussion is pointless.


Anonymous said...

So Dorothy;
what else on Obama?
I have read and heard about the muslim connection and a few other things - I have not really dealt with his history or connections other that the blatant and obvious.
Since I do not intend to vote for either the "poison pill" on 1 hand or the "gun to my head" on the other - I do not spend alot of time searching for info, but I do read articles.


Alf Cengia said...

Speaking of Obama, has anyone seen this one? Don't know how true it is, but interesting never the less.

Barack Obama: The first Arab-American president

Young Grasshopper said...

To anonymous 6:44 (Dorothy),
I agree with you that many Christians seem to have given up fighting this New Age paganism. I just had first hand experience all week as to what it is like trying to get through to a large group of people who think YOU are the wacko.

On the art forum of the online gallery where I am a member, another member (a college professor) proposed that we all paint paintings with the theme of sustainable development for the entire month of August and then promote the site bigtime with lots of press. He even said he had written his friend Al Gore about the new exhibit! I tried to explain why I was against the theme and suddenly I became the enemy of our beautiful planet and a contributor to everything from global warming to sowing fear among the other 140 artists. Then I was accused of bringing politics and religion into an art forum where it didn't belong. I had to try to defend myself by explaining that the other artist's agenda was politically motivated and grounded in paganism. (All of his paintings and messages have themes of death and reincarnation and Zen and aliens and the rest of the stuff we know about here.)It was very exhausting and although I tried to make as many points as I could to make people aware of what the globalist agenda and universal one-world religion really are, I think it went right over their heads! That or they just thought I was nuts. The one person who responded positively to my comments was turned off when I told her I was suspicious of Todd Bentley, who she thinks has been sent by God.

Back in the 90's I had a similar situation with a pagan new age teacher that taught in my dance school. She was bringing my students to her house for chanting and meditation sessions. She had altars there and other nasty stuff. When I found out about it I promptly fired her so she could no longer affect these kids and that's when all hell broke loose. My house and family were under demonic attack for two months until I finally brought a pastor of a fundamentalist church to the house to pray with us.

I had been Catholic up until that point, but unfortunately the priests at my parish weren't interested in listening to my wacky tale so I had to leave the church and go get help elsewhere. It was a nightmare.

I felt incredibly guilty about leaving the Catholic church but in the end I guess I won't go to hell, lol, and hopefully everyone here knows I mean that without being critical of anyone else's faith.

At any rate, Dorothy, that is why people (who know what's going on) keep their mouths shut about the New Age. My personal experiences have shown me that it would have been much easier in both circumstances to just close my eyes and look the other way.

It's very, very hard to stand up to situations when you know you are going to open yourself to ridicule.

I kind of skipped over the rest of the debate in here. I don't like to pass opinions on different churches or faiths. I just think it is important to look for a pure message in whatever church you happen to be in. I am in a very small church right now that is non-denominational, but the pastor has a very pure message and he is truly a missionary for trying to win souls around the world to Jesus Christ, from Sweeden to the Phillipines, to Cuba and Viet Nam and India. That's good enough for me. He is not in good health but he goes to these places all over the world and preaches the gospel. So I believe he is sincere.


Anonymous said...


How can Catholic "bashers" continue to justify calling themselves "Christian" when they are clearly disobeying their Savior, Jesus Christ's command to "love thy neighbor as thyself"?

And it doesn't seem to matter that the very church they are bashing was created by Jesus Christ who said, "And I say unto you, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build MY church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

And why do a few individuals on this blog clearly have an unhealthy obsession toward this Catholic Church that Jesus created nearly 2,000 years ago? They are not threatened by Mormons, or Hare Krishnas or Scientologists, etc. - only Catholics!!!

There are many people who quietly read this blog. They observe, but rarely post comments.

Just a reminder: your behavior toward others is most revealing and speaks volumes (for better or worse). Just food for thought.

Anonymous said...

Yes Maryanne,
It is very hard, and most of time I felt like I was shoveling sand when I tried to tell others. Someone has to break ground with people who don't know what is going on. If someone didn't take the time to break ground with me, I wouldn't be here. Not everyone can write a book that breaks ground with a lot of people at the same time, so some of us have to do it the hard way.

The way it goes is you break ground. Then if it's meant to be the listener will run across a piece of information elsewhere and will remember what you said. As I wrote to another poster, there is no glory in doing this. It takes a lot of time, money and energy, but if one wants to be a responsible member of the community, you do it.

I posted this earlier. It really is good advice on how to speak with others about things they may oppose. or


Anonymous said...


Other missing documents: or


Anonymous said...

Mark Morford who wrote the SFGate column titled
Is Obama an enlightened being?
Spiritual wise ones say: This sure ain't no ordinary politician

has now written one of the more vicious columns against the religious right that I've seen in a long time.
"Totally Gay Happy Meals
It is the end of the nutball Christian right. Here is your proof.
"Hey, remember the angry evangelicals? The quivering clan of militant Christoholics who propelled Bush into office and seized the national narrative for a few terrifying moments about five years back, ran deep into the woods with it and rubbed it all over their naughty bits in a frenzy of fear and confusion and lust for all things homophobic and saccharine and spiritually denigrating?

"Dying. Nearly dead. Gasping their last. Very soon to be a footnote, a caricature, a gag, a punch line, blasted to the dustbin of history like dried housefly limbs after a sneeze. You should know this now. ....." (more at link)

New Age supporters might be intelligent and witty, but they have no sense or morality or class. Know your enemy.


Anonymous said...

It says much that we only learn of the ruling from a gay newspaper.

"Posted: July 11, 2008 - 5:00 pm ET
(London) An employment tribunal has ruled that an Islington city clerk in North London was the victim on job discrimination when she was told she could be fired for refusing to perform civil partnerships for gay couples.

"Lillian Ladele, 47, filed the discrimination case alleging she had been harassed and threatened with dismissal when she said her Christian belief opposed same-sex unions." (more at the link)

Now why didn't our mainstream papers carry the story? They do carry international news. Could it be because they don't like to see a precedent set?


Constance Cumbey said...

That's quite a story, Dorothy. Too bad New Mexico, Canada, and California people didn't get the news!


Constance Cumbey said...

Hi Maryanne,

My pastor when I discovered the New Age Movement was Joseph Stowell (Highland Park Baptist) who went on to be the head of Moody Bible Institute. I will tell you right now I got the word out no thanks to him. There are Catholic priests who are aware of the New Age Movement and are conscientiously fighting it. Fr. Pacwa is NOT one and he is teamed with the worst of my Evangelical enemies as well to redefine the New Age Movement and give some aspects of it a clean bill of health. I started educating my clientele on the New Age Movement and it was their ministers and priests who came forward and helped starting in 1981 -- particularly helpful was a Fr. Eduard Perrone who was then a young priest. It seems the apathetic Protestants and apathetic Catholics are pretty evenly distributed and so are the honest spirits fighting it!


Constance Cumbey said...

Re the Sola Scriptura arguments:

I believe that God can and sometimes does speak to us any way he wants -- but without getting into the sola scriptural debate, here's how I believe it is all sorted out:


So, on one day, it is not Jesus is Lord and on the next day "Maitreya Buddha is Lord." On one day it is not "it is appointed unto man once to die and then the Judgment" and the next day "reincarnation".

That's how the early Church fathers sorted it out -- it should work for us as well.


Constance Cumbey said...


If you do a search in the Alice Bailey and Foster Bailey books you will see that Jews, Christians (the Vatican and "fundamentalists", and even Moslems are clear targets. It is not true that they hate Protestants more than Catholics. That was my preconception when I started, but when I got deeply into their literature, especially to page 548 of the EOH with its "nuke the Vatican" message, I started to see things very differently.


HK-91 said...

After a review of the comments section of the last five of Constance's posts, perhaps these two points would help on an overall perspective.

Point #1:

Why Critical Thinking?

The Problem

Everyone thinks; it is our nature to do so. But much of our thinking, left to itself, is biased, distorted, partial, uninformed or down-right prejudiced. Yet the quality of our life and that of what we produce, make, or build depends precisely on the quality of our thought. Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life. Excellence in thought, however, must be systematically cultivated.

A Definition

Critical thinking is that mode of thinking - about any subject, content, or
problem - in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking
by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and
imposing intellectual standards upon them.

The Result

A well cultivated critical thinker:

* raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and
* gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to
interpret it effectively comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;
* thinks openmindedly within alternative systems of thought,
recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
* communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.

Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking. It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem solving abilities and a commitment to overcome our native egocentrism and sociocentrism.

Point #2:

cognitive dissonance — n. a state of psychological conflict or anxiety resulting from a contradiction between a person's simultaneously held beliefs or attitudes.
[Encarta World English Dictionary, St. Martin's Press, 1999] Simply stated, cognitive dissonance occurs when a logical contradiction occurs in the mind. It is an internal mental paradox, if you will. These contradictions can occur for a variety of reason. Sometimes the dissonance is transitory when one can quickly explain, discover, or resolve the contradiction. Often, however, the contradiction lingers and becomes a mental black hole.

It is said that one obstacle for computer scientists to overcome in the creation of artificial intelligence is the ability for a computer to be able to function in a state of cognitive dissonance. We humans are quite capable of walking around believing one thing while the facts continue to prove us wrong.

The more that comments exemplify the first point,this forum will be effective. The more they exemplify the second point we flirt with a defeating endeavor.

When one examines all of what the New Agers consider their "holy scriptures" the prevailing foundational premise is an existential experience which provides fertile "mental ground" to reap a harvest of Point #2 above.

When one studies the Holy Scriptures that God has has provided, His propositional communication to man, a propositional being, one would hope to reap a harvest of Point#1.

If the Bible cannot be understood, then we all should be reading the "Yellow Pages", or contemplating the texture of fuzz in our collective navels.

Truth is communicated by facts. Facts can be evaluated and verified.

To equate "traditions" with facts provides a slippery slope away from Truth, in effect sowing the seeds of existentialism which blossom in the fields of Point #2.

As the inscription on the monument in Paris to the French
Huguenots reads: “Hammer away, ye hostile hands; your hammer
breaks; God’s anvil stands.”

Calvary changed everything.


Pierre Georlette said...

Dear Constance,
You might have received these comments in a slightly different version but I want to make sure its essence reaches you.
I was very surprised to hear some of your statements about "Friends of Earth" and alike. The reason is that using possibly very different ways I came, it seems to me, to the very same conclusion as yours. My basic source to judge info is the Bible and I understand that to some extent you are also a believer in its high value. So combining biblical info with professional info I am collecting for my chemical company, I found last year that some German politician with roots in the Nazism was deeply involved with the foundation in the early 90ies of what became the CGG (Commission on Global Governance).
The principle at the base of the work of this Commission in order to get a Global power on earth (apparently their goal), they encourage the wide use of all NGOs that can act everywhere in the world and in usually a non democratic way. By NGOs, we mean groups like those you mention, Friend of Earth or other similar ones like Green Peace, WWF and so many others who can destroy anyone or anything simply by spreading lies via their propaganda (like the Nazis did with the Jews) and acting scandalously, violently and so-doing attracting automatically the press/news who are starving for this kind of stuff to attract their listeners/readers.
What was very surprising for me is the fact that for instance "Friends of earth" were more or less openly Satanic as I understood from one of your speech making reference to some of their booklets. I am ready to believe this but will need to crosscheck like Bereans. I was also surprised about the kind of satanic power or hypnotism that was used in large meetings to impose behaviour on people and you were lucky to escape this influence in order to testify about the event.
I am also convinced about the danger European Union is bringing to the world as indeed, it seems to be the resurrection of the Beast via its seventh head, the previous ones being Rome (the one existing during the time of John), Greece/Macedonia, Persian Empire, Babylon, Assyria and Egypt (5 which did exists before John). Europe etymology is Erebos which means "Tenebres" in French and probably darkness in English (sorry about my poor English) and this word means in fact the place where the Devil is located. In Hebrew and Aramaic, Erev (same as Erebos) means still today evening.
Europe received a formal order from the pope John Paul 2 to stand up and become again the dominant power it used to be (I understand when the beast was still living under the Roman Empire) and this order of the pope seems to be fulfilled as Europe is the power which is followed by all the other territories as an dominating example and which is influencing the rest of the world. It is the first time in history that Europe is a political power as in the past, European countries were always fighting against each other.
Europe (if indeed it is the seventh head of the beast) is expected be short in duration as just after comes the beast itself as the eighth and last worldwide power of this world and here I see the work of the CGG dominated by German speaking countries and with the man whose name makes 666…that you can identify easily if you invest some time to do the calculation using Greek letter to write his name and using a very basic rule about German names and letter. Moreover the meaning of the German name of this person is in line with what is written about him the book of Revelation.
This is maybe a too long the message I wanted to share with you in exchange of your very interesting message I got about the "Friends of Earth".
I am living in Israel since more than 25 years now and came here with my family simply because I found the right info in the Bible that it was good to come here, provided the Lord would accept you as it is His Land.
I wish you the best.
Pierre Georlette.

Anonymous said...

Attention, everyone:

It is rumored that Bush, McCain and Obama are planning to attend this year's Bohemian Grove gathering on Sunday, July 27th in Northern California.

The annual July gathering of the over 2,000 NWO power elite movers and shakers takes place 70 miles north of San Francisco, near the town of Monte Rio on the Russian River (in Sonomo County), hidden deep within the Redwood forest.

Among their bizarre rituals, Bohemians, dressed in red-hooded robes, stand at the base of a 40-foot concrete owl and burn an effigy in a "Cremation of Care" ceremony. Some have asserted that the owl represents Moloch, a bloodthirsty deity of the ancient Phoenicians which demanded child-sacrifice. Other "rituals" are sexual in nature and can not be posted here.

Since the 1890's, these meetings have taken place. Former Presidents Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan have even attended. It is said that the Manhattan Project was nurtured here.

And, so remind me again, why we wonder why this world is going to hell in a hand basket???

Anonymous said...

so many topics covered here on this theme of NA...As someone who has had very thorough training for some 40 plus years in every aspect of NA thought - I can most assuredly testify that it is in fact a religion , which like most lies told by the father of lies has beauty and partial truth with which to beguile the comes at you from every direction now where before one had to really go looking for it - now it is part of our everyday is indeed "walking naked" in our midst...However, Yeshua had my back because in all this time I NEVER fell for the whole Maitreya charade - or the Bailey crowd - they always had a bad smell even to my jaded nose...

So thanks to Constance for this blog which I check in with every week and to all of you who contribute comments - I learn so much from the different points of view - even your slightly caustic exchanges are informative and handled with grace for the most part...Thank you all
with great love in Christ

Anonymous said...

I love you guys.

Anonymous said...

I'll just put one of your quotes down and let people mull on it:

"The de-hellenization of Christianity is the reason why so many Christians are so irrational today. Aquinas could argue his opponents positions better than they could argue their own. They were thus won over and converted to Christ."

Alexander the Great spread Hellenism, and it's pagan philosophies, including Platonism. Much of what is pagan today is influenced by Greek philosophy.

You are right, this is a fruitless discussion because the Mass, cannot be found in Scripture and this is central to Catholicism, the fact that the priest changes a little wafer into supposedly "the body and blood of Christ".

This power of the priest to change a little wafer into "Jesus' literal body" is pretty amazing. Coming up with that out of the celebration of Passover, which is the Bible account of what Yeshua was doing with His disciples is probably the most creative piece of Bible interpretation ever done.

If you do some further study, you will find links between Catholicism and Mithraism.. for an interesting discussion, see this article:

The Roman empire of Yeshua's day had been filled with pagan influence and we as believers are called out to be a "holy set apart people" and to not mix with the nations. We are not called to vain human wisdom, but God's wisdom.

I do agree with you that it's time to end the discussion, but encourage anyone who is curious to do their own research into this matter.


Anonymous said...

Young Grasshopper,

In terms of the "Satanic Art" that seems to be getting some press out there in the trenches where you are apparently struggling to do battle for Christ, I want to share a little information with you based on the research I have been doing since the 1980's on the occult revival of the 19th century.

First of all, in most totalitarian regimes, art is regularly used as propaganda. Here are some examples of Nazi propaganda art.

The Nazi equivalent of promoting "sustainable development" was defined in terms displacing what they considered to be racially and ethnically "inferior" populations in order to acquire "living space" ("lebensraum")for the "master race."

Here are some examples of Chinese Communist propaganda art:

Do you have a scanner?

Maybe you could contribute to the little "propaganda-party-disguised -as-art" being peddled by the illustrious "Professor Quack" by presenting a picture of the GRIM REAPER as a symbol of the so-called "terminator technology" I told you about with "demonic bees" cross-pollinating the terminator seeds with the natural seeds.
It could be protrayed as "sustainable development" in terms of further "developing" the monopoly that greedy laissez faire capitalists - like the creatures at Monsanto - apparently hope to acquire over the world's food supply. How's that for "art?" Do you think the "professor" would give you an "A" for that one? :-)

But getting back to Peladan....

In the 19th century there was a man named Josephin Peladan who established a so-called
"Catholic" Rosicrucian order which sponsored a salon featuring only works of art that depicted his philosophy. He and others - including Papus - were the heirs of the apostate Catholic Eliphas Levi who is generally credited with launching the occult revival in 19th-century France.

Although they had their "demonological differences" :-) there were ties between Levi and Blavatsky and Blavatsky was probably involved with the early founders of O.T.O.

Here is an interesting article in which Blavatsky is accused of plagiarism.

Eliphas Levi's "magnetic luciferianism," Peladan's "Catholic Rosicrucianism" and other similar groups were included in those secret societies that Msgr. Leon Cristiani described as "modern forms of satanism" in his book EVIDENCE OF SATAN IN THE MODERN WORLD.

Here are some examples of what I am talking about.

Salon de la Rose-Croix:
Art Movement or Art Cult?


The Plastic Ideal:
The Androgyne In fin de Siecle Occulture

Scroll down to

2. Joséphin Péladan and the “War of the Roses.”


Among the more interesting things about Peladan and others of his ilk was his near-obsession with "androgyny."
Many are not aware that androgyny is the pagan ideal and that another name for Lucifer is "the divine androgyne." (same article possibly longer )

If you take a look at the third book of C.S. Lewis' science fiction trilogy THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH, you will find a chapter in which "the sinister Frost begins to give young professor Mark Studdock a systematic training in what Frost calls “objectivity.” This is a training designed to kill in Mark all natural human preferences.
Mark is placed into a room that is ill-proportioned; for example, the point of the arch above the door is not in the center. On the wall is a portrait of a young woman with her mouth open, and with her mouth full of hair. There is a picture of the Last Supper, distinguished especially by beetles under the table. There is a representation of a giant mantis playing a fiddle while being eaten by another mantis, and another of a man with corkscrews instead of arms. Mark himself is asked to perform various obscenities, culminating in the command to trample a crucifix.

One is almost reminded of the so-called "objectivist epistemology" of Ayn Rand which was espoused by the late Church of Satan founder, Anton Szandor LaVey, and has about as little to with "objectivism" as it has to do with "epistemology."

"...LaVey's most well known written work, The Satanic Bible relied heavily on many writers of a philosophical nature, most notably Ayn Rand, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Aleister Crowley. LaVey has stated that his religion was “just Ayn Rand’s philosophy, with ceremony and ritual added", though many say that he should be given credit for his creative synthesis of the thought of others into what has become the most influential statement of modern Satanism. LaVey has denied claims of plagiarism in The Satanic Bible.

There, Young Grasshopper. Now, hopefully I have been able to provide you with you some more useful ammunition.


Anonymous said...

Denomination Blues ( Washington Phillips 1928 )

I'm gonna tell you the natural fact
Every man don't understand the Bible alike
*(chorus) And that's all, I'll tell you, that's all
But you'd better have Jesus
I'll tell you that's all

Denominations have no right to fight
They ought to just treat each other right
*(chorus every time )

Now the Primitive Baptists, they believe
You can't get to heaven 'less you wash the feet
The only Primitive that has a part
Is the one that after washing is pure at heart
Now the Missionary Baptists they believe
Go under the water and not to wash the feet
Now the AME Methodists they believe
Sprinkle the head and not to wash the feet
Now the African Methodists believe the same,'cause
You know a denomination ain't nothin' but a name
Now the Holiness people when they came in said
Boy, you get to heave by living above sin
Now the Church of God has it in mind that they can get to heaven without the sacrament of wine
_Yes you'd better have Jesus
I'll tell you, that's all.

Anonymous said...

Susanna, great information there. Thanks.

Grasshopper, hang in there. Your courage is an inspiration.

Anonymous said...

Constance, in the absence of knowing another way to contact you, I will thank you here for your work and a television series you did in Kansas City, in the early '80s, which I taped and gave to my mother. As a result, she abandoned her new age beliefs and practices and accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as her Saviour; she passed into His presence last year. You can imagine how grateful I am to you for being a vessel fit for His use and to the Lord for His grace and mercy.

I will also say that I'm heartened to see a few of your readers exposing in the comments section entire religions -- not individuals -- which call themselves Christian, yet are rife with pagan symbols and practices and are clearly on a path to aid the ushering in of, and worship of, the Antichrist.

Perhaps I'm under-exposed or inattentive, and I'm definitely not of a scholarly persuasion, but simple things sometimes catch my attention; it appears to me that Bible believing Christians are the only widely hated group of people on the earth today. Jesus said, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." This has seemed an infallible test of famous, antichrist, religious leaders (of several persuasions), as the world embraces them and reveres them and seeks their counsel.

Conspiracies (n.) exist, and that outside of attaching the word to theory, as the media has grown fond of doing, in order to marginalize and cast aspersions on those who are able to discover what is happening in the shadows.

May our studies, discoveries, discussions, prayers, and work be entirely about leading others to Jesus, to the God of the Bible, as time grows so very short. His children's citizenship is in His kingdom, and He, only, is worthy of our praise and allegiance. What He said would happen is happening. God's will be done.

Anonymous said...

HEy Paul,
I am a bass player - maybe we can set it to music -
I have read about Obaama and his "57 states" comment - wgich some tseem to think was a slip and a reference to the 57 muslim countries that exist - speculative is all.
I think thete also needs to be some focus brought to McCain.
Fighting the new age in the church, yeah, I still engage in that battle, but I do it at the individual level. Speaking rith people who want to dialogue and listen and look at evidence. Although even then, many will simply choose to igmore. It is supposed to get that way - but be encouraged and continue to speak as directed by the Master - Lord Jesus Christ.
Those who refuse to sign their post do not merit a response - for some reason, I can not get the blogger id thing to let me sign in.
Maybe the blog can be nicknamed little Belfast?" for those who still have a sense of humor.


Anonymous said...

Sorry -
that should read


Anonymous said...

Dougie Doug

4/4 not too fast

//A /A /A /A7 /

/D /D /A /A /

/E /E7 /A /A //

( basic blues )

__Little Belfast ! LOL

Anonymous said...


"Those who refuse to sign their post do not merit a response - for some reason, I can not get the blogger id thing to let me sign in."

I suspect the reason you have yet to say "I'm sorry" to the Catholics on this blog whom you have treated badly is because you are not sorry.

You actually think you are justified.

How sad is that?


Anonymous said...

Hi Elfie -
I am seeking to remeber at what point I treated some for being catholic "badly" - perhaps you have that sin of mine on your record book and would like to remind me?
By the way - I do apologize up front for not being perfect and sinless - of that I am 100% guilty.
I have not bash, I have no baited I have only sought discussion between people and if my comments have been taken otherwise I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
I also try to express my thoughts (not emotions) in such a manner as if we were all sitting together in a room where we may actaully look each other in the eyes, understanding that we are simply human beings who make mistakes - and yes, sin. This is not a licnse to sin, but my own personal failings and weakness, which I am not proud of - but humbled by, knowing they exist.


Anonymous said...


The exchanges are in the archives. You are far from the worst at this place when it comes to Catholic-baiting, but you have supported and encouraged it in others.

You have also stood silent while individuals like Paul have behaved in a most egregious way. In this regard you have a lot of company here at this blog. The fact that
"everyone here does it" though does not make it okay. The commonplace bad behavior of others around us can never be a justification for sin. The individual is always responsible, regardless of what his friends are doing.

Nonetheless, you seem genuine in your willingness to consider and reflect and for this you have regained some credibility and respect in my eyes. I will be watching and hoping for the best, and wishing you the best.


Anonymous said...


Catholicism rejects Platonism. What we agree with Socrates, Aristotle and Plato is that truth is absolute, not relative.

I just gave you scripture verses for the format of the Catholic Mass. You choose to reject them.

The Early Church refuted each and every pagan charge against Christianity including Mitaraism. See a letter against that here.

The whole thing bogs down to our interpretations of Scripture. So the Question is Who decides what interpretations of scripture are right and what are wrong?

In a court of law, 30,000 and more Protestant denominations would not be able to make up their mind on just one thing. What the Bible says?

If you'r interested in learning more about the Mass. I would recommend reading Scott Hahn's book, The Lamb's Supper.

And if you'r not interested in Catholicsm, stop posting lies and conspiracy theories about my faith.


Anonymous said...


To sign in, first click onto "Name/URL".

After you do, you will find two boxes below "Name/URL."

Type whatever screen name you want to use into the top box.

Hit "preview" to test.

If your comment needs no further editing, hit "publish this comment," and you are good to go.

Anonymous said...

Bravo, Savvy!

Right on!!!

Anonymous said...

"And if you'r not interested in Catholicsm, stop posting lies and conspiracy theories about my faith."

Boy oh boy, Savvy, you sure hit THAT nail right on the head.

Anonymous said...

Young Grasshopper,

While I was away from my computer, I was able to flesh out the idea I shared with you about the subject for your "work of art."

This is in addition to depicting the GRIM REAPER and the demonic bees.

"Revelation 6:5-6, “...and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, ‘A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!’
The third horseman of the apocalypse refers to a great famine that will take place, likely as a result of the wars from the second horseman.(including economic wars???)

Food will be scarce, but luxuries such as wine and oil will still be readily available.”

Anonymous said...


I so admire your straightforward but scholarly style of apologetics.


Anonymous said...

To Melinda (6:37 AM):

The New Age is more of an ANTI-religion since it is one and the same with the ANTI-Chist movement.

It is also the worship of self -- insisting "I am God; you are God." (I still have trouble wrapping my brain around how anyone with logic and intelligence can fall for that though!!!)

You are right about it "coming at you from every direction" . . . as it is a complex world wide network of networks (organizations) with various "levels" of power (rungs of the ladder, so to speak). While the upper levels are privy to their goals and agenda, the lower levels are often used to achieve those goals and agenda.

We must never forget that Satan was once "an angel of light" who, unfortunately for us, has not lost his superior intelligence (along with his immortal soul).

I constantly calm myself down though with the knowledge that God is still in charge . . . and will be the ultimate VICTOR in the end in the final battle of good over evil no matter how long that takes.

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