Friday, April 18, 2008


My guest today on MY PERSPECTIVE, will be John W. Spring. One of John's hidden talents is his extensive knowledge of events occurring and surrounding the John F. Kennedy presidency (1960-1963). John will share with us today the reasons for the building of the Berlin Wall, which may not be what you have always believed. Tune in at 2 p.m. Pacific Time and 5 p.m. Eastern Time and STAY TUNED!

According to a recent article appearing in, the gentleman at the left, Laurent Cohen-Tanugi has been delegated by the French government for its upcoming 6 month EU presidency to make plans to vastly project European power -- far beyond the "sweeping reforms" Javier Solana has declared the in ratification progress "Lisbon Treaty" will make. Msr. Cohen-Tanugi says that the "Lisbon Strategy is an inadequate answer to globalisation." I found 87 google hits of Solana's and Laurent Cohean-Tanugi's name together. I have not yet had time to analyze all. According to Euractiv:
Although the Lisbon Strategy is delivering initial results, the EU needs to "quicken the pace" and "adopt a global viewpoint" or it will be "out of the race by 2020", argued Laurent Cohen-Tanugi, the author of the report, in an interview with EurActiv France before the official presentation of the report to the government on 15 April.
It is hard to say if this is being done at Solana's behest or to upstage him. As I recall the prophecies, whoever and whatever "the beast" ends up being would trample the whole earth underfoot.
It certainly sounds like the European aspirations are decidedly global.
Stay tuned!


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Anonymous said...

Speaking of speeeding up -
I watch earthquakes via the following - in all my years - I have not seen the quantity and magnitude in the past 7 days - ever -


Anonymous said...

Doug, nope I haven't seen that much activity in awhile. Quite interesting...

As for the EU "Beast"
I also remember that they don't cleave together, like iron and clay. SO perhaps some will have one strategy and some another.


brightrose said...


Does anyone have any information on the credibility of researcher Peter Goodgame?

Many thanks,


Anonymous said...

Maybe he plays a "good game"

Many smiles late,
Anon Y. Mouse

Anonymous said...

Under Solana's watch this is what took place in Serbia. Our US leaders supported Solana.


Anonymous said...

Based on the Bible it appears that the antichrist is Jewish along with the false prophet, is this guy Jewish?

Is he an economic whiz?

Charming? He fakes out the world.

Illinois earth quake 5.2

Swarm of earthquakes off west coast very unusual.

HAARP in Alaska can cause earthquakes as can Russia, China, Japan, Israel I think, worth a google.

Jesus said that a person must be born again to go to heaven, a second, spiritual birth, then out of obedience be baptized in water as Jesus was. Follow the leader!


Dawn said...
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Dawn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

This morning's earthquake was felt in many states: Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Missouri, Michigan, Tennessee and Georgia (in Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis & Atlanta)!!!

Anonymous said...

. . . and Kentucky!!!

Dawn said...

Please forgive the length of this comment.

Some time ago, Dorothy, a highly regarded researcher in this forum, alerted us to Dr. Ron Paul as talking one game but playing another.

I for one didn’t really didn’t take her seriously. Or at least I gave Ron Paul the benefit of the doubt. I had signed up for his emails, and even given a little to his campaign. How I wish politicians would offer a money back guarantee of some sort. At least a gift card to Target or something.

Anyway, I started noticing some deception in the emails. In an email that encouraged others to go to our county convention, a Paul supporter told of their success. How when asked a question, he thought to himself, “What would a Huckabee supporter say?” Then that is what he said.

I disregarded this as an over excited supporter. Then more emails started coming in. They told us, if we went to a district or county convention, not to participate in straw polls. If we did, we were to vote for Huckabee or McCain.

I also received a call to come to a Ron Paul meeting before the district convention so that we could talk about whom to vote for. Then while at the convention, it would be advised not identify myself as Ron Paul supporter.

According to the following article, it is happening all over my state. It should be interesting to note that I got this article for being a Ron Paul supporter. That this was an example of their “success”. I draw you to the part of the email that made me further investigate Ron Paul.

“They also managed it with a certain amount of stealth. At the 1st District convention in Tulsa on April 5, a dozen or so ran for delegate. In their speeches, they never mentioned their support for Ron Paul, and they stayed away from Paul's distinctive positions. In particular, there were no mentions of the war in Iraq. They tried to come across as enthusiastic young Reaganauts, emphasizing issues held in common with mainstream conservatives.”

I started to wonder if this was happening in other states as well. In the above article I found an additional link to a blog entitled:

In this article, there are videos that refer to “the plan” going exactly as planned. There are comments and letters that refer to “successes” like Oklahoma in Missouri, Nevada, Montana, Minnesota, and Texas.

Here is a link to similar happenings in Minnesota that made it to WND.

It states that the purpose of all this was so that Paul could speak at the republican convention.

Ironically, I received a call last night while working on it from the head Paul supporter in my county. He told me that this that happened in Oklahoma was from over excited supporters. He was sure that Paul would disapprove of them being dishonest. So then I told him of the other states that it was happening as well. Finally, he told me that this had to be done in order for them to be heard.

I wanted to tell you the Webster’s 1828 Dictionary definition of a lie. As a verb, it is to exhibit false representation, to say or do that, which deceives another, when he has a right to know the truth.

They have no problem with lying and being deceptive to get elected. Could he be lying about other things as well?

Constance Cumbey said...

Personally, I cannot find a single verse in the Bible that says the antichrist will be Jewish -- however, that is the assumption of many.

If you are wondering specifically about Solana, Ron Hilton, a protege of Solana's grandfather, Salvador de Madariaga, believed him to be Jewish because of his books about Christopher Columbus being Jewish. Jorge Sampaio of the Alliance of Civilizations is, as I recall, an agnostic socialist but of Sephardic Jewish origins.

The New Age books, i.e. Blavatsky and Alice Bailey, inter alia, are decidedly anti-Jewish. Interestingly, the Bailey books say that their new "Christ" will not be Jewish -- that the Jews had forever forfeited that right by their exclusivity and bad karma. The Jews might have their own Messiah, per THE RAYS AND THE INITIATIONS, but he would NOT be the "world messiah."



Anonymous said...

An interesting article in WND about the government owning citizens'DNA:

Keep reading towards the end to find out about screening for behavioural traits.


Anonymous said...

The earthquake was centered in central Illinois about six miles from the town of Mount Carmel-

The Mount of decision.

Constance Cumbey said...

I thought the earthquake was epicentered further south in Illinois -- near Evansville, Indiana.


Anonymous said...

here is its exact location - USGS sight -

Magnitude 5.2
Date-Time Friday, April 18, 2008 at 09:37:00 UTC
Friday, April 18, 2008 at 04:37:00 AM at epicenter
Time of Earthquake in other Time Zones

Location 38.450°N, 87.890°W
Depth 11.6 km (7.2 miles) set by location program
Distances 7 km (5 miles) NNE (13°) from Bellmont, IL
9 km (6 miles) E (88°) from Bone Gap, IL
11 km (7 miles) N (350°) from Keensburg, IL
60 km (38 miles) NNW (331°) from Evansville, IN
206 km (128 miles) E (95°) from St. Louis, MO

Location Uncertainty Error estimate not available
Parameters NST=111, Nph=111, Dmin=36.4 km, Rmss=0 sec, Gp= 61°,
M-type=moment magnitude (Mw), Version=A
Source Center for Earthquake Research and Information, Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Event ID us2008qza6

DouginMI -
well aware of HAARP - amongst other things like it - including scalar, ect. - it is the marked increase not only in quantity but also strength that I highlight -


Anonymous said...


Yes, you cre corrrct . . . that earthquake was centered in Southern Illinois (although "felt" in as many as 16 states).

Constance Cumbey said...

I was disturbed at some of the television commentary of the removal of the children from the San Angelo, Texas FLDS compound. Particularly worrisome to me were assertions that the abuse could be mental and centered in their belief patterns -- which needed to be repatterned.

How long until that is said of us and our children are taken? Something to think about! Hard cases make bad law as we were taught when I was in law school.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:57 from previous April 13 postings, just a note on the far right and left, National SOCIALISM is a Left philosophy, not Right.

The American Thinker expresses very nicely the cultural problem, which gave so much authority to the NEW AGE. Oh, it is not Anti-Semitic!

Anonymous said...

Clinton, McCain and Obama New Deal For Climate.
Kyoto 2009What Barack Obama, John McCain or Hillary Clinton assumes the Presidency of the United States, it can be expected that Washington adopted in 2009 legislation to combat aggressive global warming. Each of the three candidates has sustained serious legislative proposals, despite their differences, and expressed his desire to take an active part in international negotiations. Beyond the rhetoric and promises of campaign, which of the three candidates has the better deal for Europe on climate? What support can expect the future American president to implement a climate policy at the height of European ambitions? What should the EU and its governments now to maximize the chance of forging a transatlantic consensus, and jointly develop a treaty that will succeed the Kyoto 2OO9?

They all are on board with EU

Rudi said...

Some of the readers of this blog will appreciate the following, some will not. I fully expect several of those who comment here will not see any relevance of personal faith being brought into a “secular” discussion of The New Age Movement. I disagree. From my first awareness of the New Age Movement through the reading of Constance Cumbey’s books, key to understanding the significance of the movement, and why I should be aware of it’s existence, was as Constance wrote, : “It appears to culminate in a scheme both fulfilling the prophetic requirements for the antichrist as set forth in the Bible, and also matching Nazism down to the use of swastikas.” In order to expose the influence of the New Age Movement and it’s ramifications for all of us, some of us will
present our information and necessary warnings from a un-apologetically Biblical prophetic position. No one reading is required to accept or support
these views. Disagreement is expected and for most of us, not interpreted as a personal attack - unless the disagreement is expressed in the form of personal name calling .
For the time being, in this forum , we are still permitted to speak and write freely, inclusive of, and regardless of our personal religious beliefs as they relate to any (as stated in the blog description on the main page) New Age Movement related topic. I for one will continue to take full advantage of the privilege. Should Constance specifically request that those who comment in her blog, kindly refrain from anything perceived as Christian “proselytizing” which could inadvertently offend another reader who may hold another religious viewpoint, I will respectfully comply. -Rudi

Anonymous said...

HK-91 says... In refrence to:

" Blogger Rudi said...

Some of the readers of this blog will appreciate the following, some will not."...

Well thought out Rudi and well stated, I appreciate it.


Anonymous said...

Rudi, the sky is not falling. As Constance said from the beginning, the New Age movement is a resurgence of Nazism. She was right and that's how I became involved. History shows that it was hard to be a Jew during the early years of the movement. It wasn't hard to be a Christian. That is what I see happening in the comments here. How dare a Jew say I disagree with with the missionizing comments. After years of reading missionizing comments I finally said something.

Frankly I think I earned that right after 26 years of fighting the New Age movement in many different ways. I fought for the rights of both Christians and Jews. Over all of those years Constance never had a problem with my efforts and the information I supplied.

I don't have to justify myself to anyone, including you.


Anonymous said...

Dorothy said:

Under Solana's watch this is what took place in Serbia. Our US leaders supported Solana.


2:47 PM

This doesn't shock me a bit since they all do have a common goal and a common link.
I am finding that the roots and philosophy of FreeMasonry run very deep in our world leaders today and that they are all one in purpose more than we are led to believe. As we know Americas founding fathers like George Washington, Benjamin Franklin etc. were Freemason. Watch the Atlantis Connection by Chris Pinto in the links from Connies home page," How I got into all this mess" or
The New World Order could be the Utopian society that will be the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation. I can think of no better way for this to be accomplished, than the rapture of the church.
Millions will be gone in a moment and all their assets left behind (and they won't even have to commit genocide)

Anonymous said...

Is anyone aware of this planet X stuff that has to do with Niburu & Anunnuki. This is stuff supposedly from the Sumerian Tablets. I will post a portion of what they believe and then I will post the link.

"Next we must consider the myths, which speak of the return of Jesus. Now, if you take into context the alien equation, the idea of a returning god is not so far-fetched. If the gods are truly on this 3600 year cycle, it would make sense that they've left and will return. It is also plausible that during this time we've had interaction with other alien beings who do not support the Anunnaki. The question of whether the Anunnaki are friend or foe can be debated. If we were created to be subjects of the gods, it would make sense that we wouldn't wish to be their slaves when they return. The idea of other aliens interacting within our society may be to provide us with advancements so that our awareness level would be high enough to understand the threat and our technology would be advanced enough to provide us with a means of defense."
There are many who believe this, but I think it is a pagan perspective of the great tribulation.
What I see in this is a satanic new age message to prepare the people to receive the anti-christ.
I believe that the Sumerian Clay Tablets exist but the message is from a Nimrod Babylonian perspective. These people lived right after the flood and the stories were passed down. I think these anunnuki they are talking about are the Nephilim in Genisis 6. The giants, the sons of god that were the fallen angels that had children with the daughters of man.

HK-91 said...


In the interest of clarity, and quality communication, I'd like to address some statements you posted at 12:12 AM.

Firstly you stated "As Constance said from the beginning, the New Age movement is a resurgence of Nazism." while I agree with this statement I am want to remember hearing Constance make it on a Southwest Radio Church broadcast in 1981. To add some more specifics to this, Constance made that statement in the context of presenting Nazism as a manifestation of the Occult, which Constance has always maintained as the energizing ideology/theology of Nazism. Furthermore as Constance continued her elaboration of the Occult connection to, and the identification of, Nazism revived, progressing to the factual presentation of the New Age Movement as the resurgence of the Occult, as Nazism revived on a world wide scale. She was very meticulous to always document the Occult foundation. The identification of, and proof of, supported by factual documentation, has always been to focus on the spiritual character of the New Age Movement as the most dangerous aspect of it,all temporal dangers not withstanding. Constance's frame of reference and basis for evaluating and presenting the dangerous spiritual implications of the New Age, has always been in my understanding, the Bible. It seems elementary to any purposeful evaluation of the dangers of the New Age Movement that they be spiritual/theological in their essence or be relegated to a merely benign historical documentation of how another historical human tragedy manifested itself in space time history in world events, stripped of any real substance of its nature or purpose. In sum, to not define the New Age Movement at its core as a spiritual danger is to not understand its real danger. To make a correct spiritual evaluation of it, and its dangers, without using the Bible as the only source of true understanding of spiritual truth, is to engage in a philosophical/ethical endeavor at best, or a valueless opinionated commentary at worst.

As for me I have been aware of, also thanks to Constance's efforts, and researched on my own to verify her efforts, since 1981 the New Age Movement. I have read the source documents of their "Theologians" and think I quite understand their foundation, and their goals. My understanding is a result of the comparison of their Theology to a Biblical Theology centered in a study of the Bible, not a mere reading of it. To clarify, I use the LXX or Septuagint, for the "Old Testament" and an interlinear Greek/English "New Testament" by George Ricker Berry which, in my opinion, are as true to the original languages as I can get, in order to approach the accuracy of and respect to G_d's revelation of Himself to man, in pursuit of the truth with integrity.

I can fully understand your focus on the dangers of a resurgence of Nazism to Jews in particular. I might point out however that the resurgence, precisely due to its wold wide scope, and unbridled , unprecedented power, will be unleashed upon Jews, Bible centered Christians, and unsuspecting various groups of people who do not accept the New Age agenda. The purpose of Constance's efforts and her blog site document this meticulously, as well as Rich of Medford's blog documents in great detail the AoC's state of structure and action as the New Age Movement moves to actual real time execution of its plan. Thus you and I find ourselves here sharing this forum.

Secondly if you could please help me understand this quote from your post: "That is what I see happening in the comments here. How dare a Jew say I disagree with with the missionizing comments. " I would greatly appreciate it.

As one who tries to evaluate the currency of the implementation of the New Age agenda I must needs evaluate it in the spiritual framework as I stated above. If I make a spiritual assessment of it using Scriptures as the basis of such an analysis as my source of Truth, my intent is not to "missionize" nor is it to proselytize, when I employ an honest, disciplined, factual study, and present information in a forum such as this it is primarily to communicate what my study has produced. When I state my motives I do so knowing that my statements will provide evidence for others to judge my motives, if they desire to, in order to establish any credibility to my statements and or motives. I have said before I am most concerned with truth. When I say that I understand that I am not the repository of truth just an honest pursuer of it and if I am incorrect on something I am most grateful to anyone who corrects me.
For me it is of great importance to make my statements, support them with facts, and document my resources with the intent to provide others the courtesy of checking out what I say. I realize that I may have a perspective and a belief that someone else might not share. I offer what I do for consideration, not imposition. Thus I find myself on this forum, engaging others in a disciplined forum of ideas.

Thirdly, you stated: "Frankly I think I earned that right after 26 years of fighting the New Age movement in many different ways." Frankly I have found that in many of your posts, of your research, you have earned, and rightly so, my respect as an accurate investigator of many topics for which I thank you for your efforts. I have learned much from your efforts.

What we all here share is an awareness of unprecedented perilous times. What we all respect is Truth. What we all need is more understanding.

May each of us find a place in our thinking that cherishes what is sure to be efforts, precious time, communicating, helping, sharing, and most importantly loving this opportunity to support each other.


Anonymous said...

Just wanted to thank you for continuing to recommend Paul washer in previous comment sections.
I've been meaning to check him out for a while now But kept forgetting until you posted the youtube link a few days ago (now in my favorites box)
He reminds me of Derek prince a bit, from what I've seen of them both. straight talking and not interested in impressing anyone with gimmicks etc.
Thanks :)


Anonymous said...

I have to say I was quite confused seeing Rudi's comments here in this thread..

FYI to anyone else, this was a continuation from the previous thread. I did NOT realize you all had been posting all weekend, I thought it was awfully quiet.

After I realized this, I took 2 hours to read through it all. That was an emotionally trying task, and before I make any comments on it, if I do, I need some time to digest what all was said.

For now, I will say, that when we post online, it seems that we have assumed that everyone reading what we write understands from which point of view we write with.

Also, it seems that we read into what others are writing what we think they are saying and not what they are actually saying.

I have communicated with several of you off of this forum, to know different sides of the story. Not that I agree with all that is said or anyone's particular conclusions, but perhaps we just don't have all the information.

I do wish the tone would change a little, as it makes my spirit heavy.


Anonymous said...

Magnitude 5.2
Date-Time Friday, April 18, 2008 at 09:37:00 UTC
Friday, April 18, 2008 at 04:37:00 AM at epicenter
Time of Earthquake in other Time Zones

Location 38.450°N, 87.890°W
Depth 11.6 km (7.2 miles) set by location program
Distances 7 km (5 miles) NNE (13°) from Bellmont, IL

Isn't that where Barak Hussein Obama is from?

kck said:
HAARP in Alaska can cause earthquakes as can Russia, China, Japan, Israel I think, worth a google.


I have checked out HAARP and it is quite the multipurpose machine.
They say it causes earthquakes, severe weather and intercepts icbms. I think our technology is much more advanced than we are led to believe, but the criminal thing would be the climate control, because that would mean that they can cause the global warming and hold us citizens responsible.
To be honest. It is spring here in S. Calif, and we used to have some wonderful rain. In my observance of things, my sons iphone weather says rain and it feels like it is on the brink of raining, then I can see them continueing to spray chemtrails above the clouds as they dissolve.

What is that bible verse? For a lack of knowledge my people perish. Or get sorely duped.
Hosea 4:6a My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. Says The LORD.

Anonymous said...

HK, excellent commentary, well thought out.

A point of disagreement.

I do not believe that even the most ardent reader of the Christian or Jewish Bible can find complete protection from the insideous nature of NA thinking. In fact ideas from both have been used to bolster NA programs. Think about how the ecology and sustainabiity movements have been sold inside churches and synagogues. Many alternative health ideas have their source in occult beliefs. Without someone actually doing research in other publications and documenting this, nothing in the Bible keeps people away from the practices.

Society's thinking has changed so much that warnings about the occult are dismissed. Convincing ourselves is one thing. Being able to warn others is something else.

You wrote: Secondly if you could please help me understand this quote from your post: "That is what I see happening in the comments here. How dare a Jew say I disagree with with the missionizing comments. " I would greatly appreciate it.

It's the cumulative effect rather than problems with any particular individual. Every poster that writes Jesus is the way is saying that what I believe is wrong. You have no idea how often it happens in real life. The only thing that can be done in return is silence or politeness.

A person's religious beliefs are very important. Mine are very important to me. Yet if I respond by saying Judaism is the religion that should be practiced, I would be saying that Christianity is the wrong belief. I doubt there would be converts to Judaism.

I doubt there would be many who would like to hear from strangers on a daily basis that one's husband or wife is the wrong partner for the individual.

I know a lot of individuals are happy making comparisons between symbols in the Bible with what is going on in the real world. I haven't seen this do much good in fighting the NA movement, but if it makes someone feel it justifies the validity of the Bible, I just skip by the post.


Anonymous said...

Just wanted to thank you for continuing to recommend Paul washer in previous comment sections.


Glad to know you got something out of watching Paul Washer. I think he's a fabulous cathechist--there is just something very very real about him. And unlike so many Evangelical preachers I've watched speak over the years, this guy thinks. He actually thinks. Why this guy isn't better known (or at least better promoted) among Evangelicals is a mystery to me.

I will check out Derek Prince and let you know what I think.

On a different note, I highly recommend Josef Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict's) latest encyclical, Spe Salvi. It's about, inter alia, the rational basis for Christian hope. This pope's understated demeanor belies an intellect of epic proportions.


Rudi said...

HK- I so much appreciated reading
your commentary referencing Constance's Nazi/New Age research as well as your own long term studies on the movement. I look forward to reading more from you in the future. Well done. -Rudi

Anonymous said...

To make a correct spiritual evaluation of it, and its dangers, without using the Bible as the only [emphasis mine] source of true understanding of spiritual truth, is to engage in a philosophical/ethical endeavor at best, or a valueless opinionated commentary at worst.


The tone of your post, and the effort that went into it, is much appreciated. I wish to point out that you have, in the above quote, provided an example (although a very, very benign one) of what some of us non-Protestant readers see as the problematic nature of some of the commentary that goes on here at this blog.

The Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, uses both scripture and tradition as a source of understanding of spiritual truth as written in the Bible. Thus, although your quote may apply to most Protestants, it does not reflect accurately the spiritual reality for faithful Catholics.

If I was Protestant, and posting that here, I would say something like this instead:

To make a correct spiritual evaluation of it, and its dangers, without using the Bible as the only source of true understanding of spiritual truth, is to engage, in what I believe to be a philosophical/ethical endeavor at best, or a valueless opinionated commentary at worst.

A small difference, but you'd be amazed at what a difference it makes to the reader!

As I said in an earlier post, it's not what is said, but the way it's said--with the hearer in mind and in a charitable spirit--that can make all the difference, without sacrificing the integrity of the thought.

Given your written communication skills you no doubt know this already--I am using this example for the benefit of all here who may be interested in this issue.


Anonymous said...

Hi Rose, thanks for replying.
I had a look on youtube for Derek prince, unfortunately I only found one video about Homosexuality.
If you ever want to have a look at him Check out:
or a few free videos on his website:

I will read the Josef Ratzinger piece you have mentioned.

Take care.

Anonymous said...

It's the cumulative effect rather than problems with any particular individual. Every poster that writes Jesus is the way is saying that what I believe is wrong. You have no idea how often it happens in real life. The only thing that can be done in return is silence or politeness.

A person's religious beliefs are very important. Mine are very important to me. Yet if I respond by saying Judaism is the religion that should be practiced, I would be saying that Christianity is the wrong belief. I doubt there would be converts to Judaism.


This mirrors almost exactly how I feel here as a Catholic.

The folks responding to my posts today and yesterday missed the main point that I thought I made very clearly -- that many of them tend to treat this forum like an extension of FP (which is essentially a closed forum--in other words, the posters can relax a little bit and know they are surrounded by people who agree with most of their theology; even though some of the anti-Catholicism there grates at me, I have no legitimate right to complain about it, since these folks are expressing themselves in a forum with others who share their theological bent).

This forum, however, is not a Protestant forum. It's as though a lot of the regulars at this blog "want to tell you all about their religion and share their faith with you, but don't want to know anything about yours."

When Setterman said you were going to hell if you didn't believe in Jesus Christ, that waas the last straw for me. I've never seen you try to impose your religious views on anyone, but I often feel like you as a Jew are invisible, isolated, and marginalized as a Jew and I feel that's wrong. I think you tolerate a lot in silence, for the greater good of advancing the objectives of this forum. One can only keep one's mouth shut so long sometimes before one simply loses the head. I do feel that there is some anti-Semitism at work here even if not conscious, and I do not like it at all.

I should add that I'm not labelling all Protestant posters at this board -- the last time the anti-Catholic bigotry exploded at this board it was started by one man, Bob Mitchell, and then supported by (from what I remember) Oldmanoftheski, Paul, Doug, Johnny and Rudi -- maybe Setterman but I cannot remember. The only folks who spoke up on my behalf were you (Jewish) and Constance (Protestant).

Leana, Deannie, and Bjorn, and Rich didn't jump into the fray from what I remember -- maybe they weren't around, or maybe they just chose not engage.

Everyone makes mistakes and loses the head sometimes. What I see here, though, is an unwillingness to even consider let alone accept fair criticism in the spirit in which it is given--I see no reflection, no self-examination, no self-awareness, no consideration that, "Hmmm...maybe Rose and Dorothy have a legitimate point" and a willingness to try to engage and maybe learn. Instead, raising questions of manners and fairness is perceived as an attack on oné's right to religious self-expression.

I would have hoped that your opinions on the matter of people's social skills/communication skills at this blog would carry some credibility, because you as a person have established a track record of having good judgment and discernment. Although I sometimes disagree with you--and sometimes quite strongly--your heartfelt views do carry credibility with me. Were you to criticize me, I would take it on board and at least give you a fair hearing.


Anonymous said...




Anonymous said...

Thank God, we are all free, at least for the moment, to continue sharing our perspectives, experiences, research, and yes, even our faith on this very, very, public forum.

Does any number of years of research and accumulated knowledge endow certain rights or position any individual as an unquestionable authority on any subject? I trust few here have sat in a sweat lodge with representatives of Findhorn, retired Pentagon intelligence officers, rising politicians, and various flakes from assorted UN NGO’s, listening as a Native American shaman (Sun Bear) invited demonic entity after demonic entity to come in and share the darkness. Such an experience does not make me any kind of expert on shamanism, the occult, or the NA movement. That said, I have put a few things together since 1981, but that fact does not make my own perspective any more valuable or important than anyone else posting here. If we were to add up all our accumulated years of research and experience, it would total hundreds of years of noticing how the threads of the Spider’s Web were linking together. We ought not to dismiss the value of that knowledge or take for granted the responsibility of sharing it.

I’ve often made statements that even with further, and sometimes extremely lengthy explantion, gave someone reason to fire off a contrary opinion, a critique if you will. I feel blessed to have such a critical audience, for if we were all here singing kum-buy-ya, it wouldn’t be worth a damn. The point of this forum, in my opinion, is to share our findings, facts as well as opinion, so that we can learn from, and help others, understand the perilous times we are living in.

No one sees the end from the beginning except God. However, if I were to make a prediction, I would say that perhaps in the not too distant future, a lot of us posting here might find ourselves headed towards the same “rethinking” camp, where our absolutist, intolerant, and exclusivist views will be “repatterned” to conform to the AOC anti-fundamentalist relativistic new world order politically correct belief system. Those camps will be all-inclusive, with plenty of room for practicing Jews, fundamentalist Protestants, and yes, there will even be a wing for some of you dyed in the wool Catholics.

Congratulations! You’ve all made the enemies list.

Anonymous said...

Wow Rose , now that you've got
us in our respective boxes, I feel
like I'm in very good company.

Anonymous said...


My understanding of why some Christians posting here seem to elaborate on their beliefs, is to provide a context for their comments. Christianity is often misrepresented in mainstream media. For example, news coverage of "evangelicals" often looks portrays us as sappy or crazy. As if they are more or less making fun of our beliefs. It is safe to laugh at Protestants. Not sure why. If you make fun of Jews it is considered anti-semitism, if you make fun of Catholics- you have an anti-Catholic bias. As far as I am concerned, no one cares what others say about protestant Christians.

As for the topic of this forum only being about the new age- I tend to disagree. Constance often posts about global governance, Christian apostasy, and news on the European Union and the economy.

Which brings us back to how this whole thing started. Dorothy asked a question about the Rick Warren and emergent church apostasy. I think we tried to explain the apostasy as best as we could. Dorothy, Rose and others who take offense at what has been said here: please understand the I believe the "missionizing" came in the context of explaining apostasy. Most of us had no knowledge of how much you know about our beliefs. When you say you are Jewish, or Catholic most of us expect that you don't completely know what all we believe or why. So it would make sense to explain it to show why we believe that the emergent church has departed from "the faith".

I try to not write in when I feel "provoked", as I did once, and learned my lesson. I don't like being attacked on line as much as anyone else, but to be fair, it feels like Catholics have condemned protestants to hell, in fact didn't the pope say that. I guess that puts us on the defensive.


Anonymous said...


I don't really much anti-Protestant bigotry but it's possible that I'm just not tuned into it--what I do see is a kind of a stereotype that the mainstream (secular) media does tend to portray about Southern Baptists being illiterate, bigoted, etc.

Unfortunately, it is as safe to laugh at Catholics and Jews as it is to laugh at Protestants. Most Americans will deny that either Anti-Semitism or Anti-Catholicism exist. The only reason it gets pointed out is that Catholics and Jews themselves, through the Catholic League and Anti-Defamation League, monitor these events and issue statements trying to raise awareness. Protestants, having no central authority (because there are so many branches), lack such a centralized voice to fight prejudice.

but to be fair, it feels like Catholics have condemned protestants to hell, in fact didn't the pope say that

If you are talking about Pope Benedict, I am aware of no such statement--can you give me a citation and I will research it and get back to you?

Keep in mind there is a difference between Church doctrine as protected by the Magesterium, and opinions of individual Catholics. A statement made by any individual Catholic, even a priest, bishop, or even the Pope himself, is not reflective of Catholic doctrine simply because the person said it. If you want to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches on any issue, the best resource is

I don't like everybody there, but as regards Catholic orthodoxy, they will answer anything, and they will give it to you straight. I use it all the time since I am not an expert on orthodoxy by any means.

Just wondering--do you have views on Settermen's statement to Dorothy in this forum that she is going to hell if she doesn't accept Jesus? (I'm not picking on Setterman--I rather liked a lot of his posts--but as Constance says, if he has the nerve to say it I have the nerve to quote him!)

Best wishes,


p.s. I love your name

Anonymous said...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Except for you know who, I don't think the Protestant posters were deliberately trying to irritate. Maybe I should have risked it and tried speaking up before this.

I've talked with Leana, Dawn, Bjorn and Rich off this blog. I know none of them would ever deliberately attempt to play one-up on the basis of their religious beliefs. Their beliefs are so firm that they can respect the beliefs of others even if they disagree with them. If they ever thought I was getting out of line, they would gently call the problem to my attention. From everything I've seen, they live up to the highest in Christian beliefs. This thought goes without saying about Constance who, though she's not pefect, lives by very high ideals.

I only mention them by name because you might not have had a one on one contact with them.

Readers here who don't post comments may have stands they would take, but we will never know. I would guess that many who could learn about the dangers of the NA movement have stopped following the blog thinking that only certain kinds of Christians believe this information. The information shared here can be of benefit to any individual who values his freedom, so we should continue to work to make this a user friendly blog.

Old man, of course in some ways you are more of an expert than the rest of us. We didn't have the experiences you list. You could analyze the attraction, describe what went through your head during these experiences, describe the kind of people attracted to these occult activities and then share how you view them from outside of the experience with your new knowledge. I really don't think the descriptions will tempt anyone to participate in NA activities, but it would help us to communicate with those attracted to NA activities.


Anonymous said...

HK-91 says...


I find it rather interesting how the commentary topics, and posts have focused us all on the importance of quality communication. It allows for the presentation of of many personal perspectives by we who take the information found here and measure it with what we believe, and how our beliefs address the world events around us.
A few quotes of yours pertaining to my post: "As I said in an earlier post, it's not what is said, but the way it's said--with the hearer in mind and in a charitable spirit--that can make all the difference, without sacrificing the integrity of the thought."... suggest that... " I wish to point out that you have, in the above quote, provided an example (although a very, very benign one) of what some of us non-Protestant readers see as the problematic nature of some of the commentary that goes on here at this blog." exact quote: "To make a correct spiritual evaluation of it, and its dangers, without using the Bible as the only source of true understanding of spiritual truth, is to engage in a philosophical/ethical endeavor at best, or a valueless opinionated commentary at worst." is my attempt at benign representation of "... some of the commentary that goes on here..." with the suggestion that I might have had an unfortunate oversight in the phrasing of my point. You then deduce that: "Given your written communication skills you no doubt know this already--I am using this example for the benefit of all here who may be interested in this issue." perhaps to help me with my possible oversight.

I chose my words for the statement precisely and with careful consideration, and I stand by it word for word, your characterization of it notwithstanding.

It might help you to know some things about me in the interest of clarity. I was born into a Catholic family,Polish in ancestry, which had and has a rather conservative Catholic history, theologically speaking. I attended a Catholic grammar school, Maryknoll nuns, and a Catholic high school, Irish Christian Brothers, with respect to the teaching orders. I was a practicing Catholic until the age of 26. I say that to tell you I know conservative Catholic Doctrine, and Theology quite well.

Having that said, at the age of 30 I found that what some here prefer to term "Protestants" usually with some sort of modifier, sometimes with a not very complimentary implication, or to put it a better way, fasten your seatbelt, a Biblically centered Christian, who esteems the Bible as the only source of faith and practice, the final Authority on Truth. I won't belabor you with the statement of faith, if you require it I'll email you one.

"If I was Protestant, and posting that here, I would say something like this instead:.." is another of your quotes, however you are not a "Protestant" so please, don't offer me any advise on how to post like a "good" one.

Last but not least on integrity of thought you post: "As I said in an earlier post, it's not what is said, but the way it's said--with the hearer in mind and in a charitable spirit--that can make all the difference, without sacrificing the integrity of the thought." In my 30 plus years of studying the Bible,and trying to communicate the truths contained in it to and with others, experience has taught me that "what" is said is far more important than the "way" it is said. If truth is said with thoughtless recklessness, or with the most tactful consideration
someone will find fault in the communication be it in its style or content just because truth does that. I'll leave you with this "Let God be true, and every man a lier"...I include myself as a man in that, my Judge will be my Savior ergo I do not sweat the small stuff. I as well hope our communication will benefit all here who may be interested in this issue.


HK-91 said...


I find it rather interesting how the commentary topics, and posts have focused us all on the importance of quality communication. It allows for the presentation of of many personal perspectives by we who take the information found here and measure it with what we believe, and how our beliefs address the world events around us.
A quote of yours pertaining to my post: "As I said in an earlier post, it's not what is said, but the way it's said--with the hearer in mind and in a charitable spirit--that can make all the difference, without sacrificing the integrity of the thought." suggests that... " I wish to point out that you have, in the above quote, provided an example (although a very, very benign one) of what some of us non-Protestant readers see as the problematic nature of some of the commentary that goes on here at this blog." exact quote: "To make a correct spiritual evaluation of it, and its dangers, without using the Bible as the only source of true understanding of spiritual truth, is to engage in a philosophical/ethical endeavor at best, or a valueless opinionated commentary at worst." is a benign representation of "... some of the commentary that goes on here..." with the suggestion that I might have had an unfortunate oversight in the phrasing of my point. You then deduce that: "Given your written communication skills you no doubt know this already--I am using this example for the benefit of all here who may be interested in this issue." perhaps to help me with my possible oversight.

I chose my words for the statement precisely and with careful consideration, and I stand by it word for word, your characterization of it notwithstanding.

It might help you to know some things about me in the interest of clarity. I was born into a Catholic family,Polish in ancestry, which had and has a rather conservative Catholic history, theologically speaking. I attended a Catholic grammar school, Maryknoll nuns, and a Catholic high school, Irish Christian Brothers, with respect to the teaching orders. I was a practicing Catholic until the age of 26. I say that to tell you I know conservative Catholic Doctrine, and Theology quite well.

Having that said, at the age of 30 I found that what some here prefer to term "Protestants" usually with some sort of modifier, sometimes with a not very complimentary implication, or to put it a better way, fasten your seatbelt, a Biblically centered Christian, who esteems the Bible as the only source of faith and practice, the final Authority on Truth. I won't belabor you with the statement of faith, if you require it I'll email you one.

"If I was Protestant, and posting that here, I would say something like this instead:.." is another of your quotes, however you are not a "Protestant" so please, don't offer me any advise on how to post like a "good" one.

Last but not least on integrity of thought you post: "As I said in an earlier post, it's not what is said, but the way it's said--with the hearer in mind and in a charitable spirit--that can make all the difference, without sacrificing the integrity of the thought." In my 30 plus years of studying the Bible,and trying to communicate the truths contained in it to and with others, experience has taught me that "what" is said is far more important than the "way" it is said. If truth is said with thoughtless recklessness, or with the most tactful consideration
someone will find fault in the communication be it in its style or content just because truth does that. I'll leave you with this "Let God be true, and every man a lier"...I include myself as a man in that my Judge will be my Savior ergo I do not sweat the small stuff. I as well hope our communication will benefit all here who may be interested in this issue.


Anonymous said...

Okey here's what I think about
I'm an accomplished liar since I
was a kid.
I also used to steal when I was little
and only stopped because I got
caught and scared out of it.
I am duplicitous and vindictive.
I am very competitive.
I have a high opinion of myself
and my abilities which doesn't
really jibe with the facts.
I am greedy.
I'm sneaky.
I've wasted most of my adult life
thinking that I had a musical
gift which would make me rich.
Speaking of rich, I've always
wanted to be.
I'm lazy.
I used to be a womanizer
because I thought they all
wanted me. Wrong.
I seldom speak up but when
I do it's usually to put my
foot in my mouth.
Were it not for all the corrective
influences in my life I'm sure
I would be quite wicked, as I
was in my twenties and beyond.
Being a liar, I really haven't
let on regarding the depth
of my depravity.

In 1974 I walked into a little
church service one day and ended
up getting saved from my self.
I repented and really cleaned up
but after a few years I was back
at it again for a number of years
when I finally went to another
little church and recommitted
myself to Jesus.
I BELIEVE he forgave me of all
my truly grievious sins, and I
believe he keeps me and directs
my steps when I let him. I've
begged Him to just take over
my life but he says no. He has no
use for puppets. He has used my
abilities on the electric bass
inasmuch as I've been able to
stay out of the way and he has
blessed me and comforted me
more than I can describe.

So, I love Jesus. And I love his Word
the Bible. In fact the two are
synonymous as I understand it.
When the discussion is about
the New World Order, or the New
Age and all it's complexity (network
of networks ) I think of the "great
red dragon having seven heads and
ten horns" ( Rev.12:3 ), but I'm
not a Christian who reads the book
of Revelations to the exclusion of
all the others.
I've read the Bible from front to
back more than once and hope
read it all again many times. I
get my doctrine from it, yes, but
I get my very life from it too.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.


Anonymous said...

Antisemitism is alive and growing in Europe where synagogues have been torched and people killed. In this country Jews have been killed because they are Jewish.

Have you read Paul's comments? If anyone said anything similar about Protestants the furor couldn't be contained. This doesn't even touch on the antisemitism found in the Muslim community.

Jews are portrayed on television and in films as some sort of abnormal goofs, not as religious people, big contributors to charities, activists more than just on the left, and major contributors to the advancement of civilization given all of the original research that comes out of the community. Rabbi Gertel wrote a book analyzing this, Over The Top Judaism.

All of the good done by the Jewish community is not reported just as all of the good done by Christian organizations is not reported. I was amazed to learn how good religious organizations are when the funds they raise in their own communities go to help everyone equally who applies.

Oh there is antisemitism out there as those who are Jewish know when they are around people who do not know they are Jewish. Then the unguarded remarks come out, when people feel safe in making them.


Anonymous said...


Thank you for the compliment on my name, I have my wonderful mother to thank for that. I happen to like it too.

I was being a little facetious with that remark about being condemned to hell, but it was in response to Pope Benedict's 2007 remark about us not being in the true church.

My understanding of Catholic doctrine came from a dear friend who is Catholic and told me that what the Pope says becomes doctrine as he has the authority to speak for God. That his decrees become "tradition" and that it has as much authority as the scriptures. Thank you for a link to do further research.

As I was raised a Baptist, I relate well to that reference, even though I don't live in the south. However, I was referring to when television programs show Chrisians/ evangalicals at the big churches with people and hands raised, singing,etc. Especially on the History channel documentaries. It is often portrayed in a way to margainalize their sincerity and demean their experiences.

As for Setterman's comment...
I will qualify this response that I can only assume what he meant by it. Also, realizing that I conversed with Dorothy privately about some of these matters.

My response to her is that I don't profess to know completely what God's plan is for the Jewish people. As I am not exactly clear as to how most Jewish believers view the end times and the Day of the Lord, I can only proscribe my views in light of a Christian worldview in that I take the Bible literally and only symbolically where appropriately explained in context.

The concept of Hell, as a literal place of abode for the deceased I believe is very scriptural. If you die apart from faith in Jesus, it is very clear you go there. In the Old Testament it was clear that everyone went there, some that were righteous went there as a resting place, and the unrighteous went there as a place of punishment and torment. After the death of Jesus, the New Testament describes that those who die in faith of Jesus will then reside in Paradise until our resurrection at the last trump, when the dead will rise first and will meet with Jesus in the air.

As far as I know, Jews do expect a resurrection at the end. However, I believe this is after the time of Jacob's trouble, when we would expect a time of distress unparalleled from the beginning of the world until now.

I think a case for Jesus as the Jewish messiah can be made just by using the Old Testament scriptures, as when Jesus was preaching, there was no new testament. You either believe in Him on faith or you don't.

That said, It is clear in the book of Romans, that not all Jews are cut off. We have to expect that in the end times, God will pour out His Spirit, and that when the heart of the Jewish people is softened by God, they will then be ready to examine His truth. This will only happen when the times of the gentiles have been fulfilled. At that point they are grafted back into the tree.

OK, so back to the point. The New Testament, which I believe word for word, says that every knee will bow to Jesus and profess him as Lord, or their eternal destiny is the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. This will not happen until God mercifully gives us many chances to recognize what he wants to know and come to repentance.

I am not clear if, at the end, the Jewish people will be given the opportunity by God to change their minds, or if, when they die that's it, no more chances. However, since they are the people that belong to God, the apple of His eye, I think we can expect that he will be more than fair.

So as to answer your question, I am not sure we can say. However, Revelation is very clear who WILL go to the Lake of Fire, the murderers, idolaters, etc...

If you have not professed faith in Jesus, you take your chances being judged on your deeds.

Hope that helps clarify my position. Thanks for asking.


Anonymous said...

Rose and Dorothy

I tried very hard to word my earlier post correctly. I don't believe I said there was no Catholic or Jewish defamation going on, just that at least there were words for it. It seemed to me that we often forget about the defamation of Protestant Christians.

Thanks though, for the reminder that this kind of attitude lurks everywhere.


Anonymous said...

Truth seekers.

On Dr. Deagle's radio show 4 p.m. CST or

Guest Texe Marrs (full hour it's still on) explained the Bush Jewish Scroll.

I think the show is archived at both sites try Deagles first.

New ideas/thoughts on end times.

Take what you like and leave the rest, but really, really good show.

Sarkozy could be person of interest.


Anonymous said...

Obama not liked by Jewish elite.

If it looks like he could win Presidency things could come to a head in Middle East before Bush leaves.

I am leaning more to McCain based on his trip to the Middle East including Bush and Cheney's.

Heard Pres. Carter could endorse Obama.

Life is full of surprises.


Anonymous said...

Not through comments yet, but this is about spiritual warfare, it doesn't matter what the name of any group is, you are on one side of the road or the other.

I do not trust Paul period. He acts like a Pied Piper bringing the mice out of the walls, and the tactics are like Pat Robertson's bid. Wait and see what the followers do when all is lost.

What's the old saying about fool me once? I never supported Pat.

Helicopter Ben is flying again, watch out. The tax payers are going to pay the bill and woe is us when it comes to being "TAX slaves."

Large banks can't stay in business without infusion of Fed (our)funds/dollars. ARGH. And yes I know about the Fed.

People are just walking away from homes leaving their pets!

Next bomb is credit card debt, car loans, etc.

We are watching a dead cat bouncing!

Sec. Paulson basically said "let them eat cake" when he said not to rescue those who need food, it appears there are too many useless eaters and bottom feeders anyway. It's coming here prepare.

It may not be how much money you have, it could be what's available at any price.

May God have mercy on us all, you and your family are prayed for.


Anonymous said...

In my 2004 article “Eden Revisited”, originally published on Henry Lamb’s Ecologic website, I stated what has become obvious to many….that the new age eco-centered elites are trying to create an Eden only they are competent to define.

Everything we describe as New Age is a part of the machinery designed to convince enough of the rest of the world, the proverbial "tipping point", of the rightness of the course of action they, the anti-God crowd, wants to see implemented. The philosophical foundation of all things NA is that man does not need the God of the Bible in order to govern the world and ultimately re-create Eden. That's an attractive philosophy for much of the world's population, which, as in the days of Noah, lives in open rebellion to He who created them.

Over the years I have published dozens of articles and letters sharing my experiences and opinions about the green part of the rainbow and it's occult connections. Some of what I have written is archived on the internet, yet due to multiple computer crashes before I was privy to making back ups, much of what I have written has been lost. Every once in awhile though, one of my old articles resurfaces somewhere on the internet.

I recently found "Eden Revisited" on a website I had never heard of, under the familiar topic “Agenda 21”. Take from it what you will, discard the rest, but please don’t pick it apart one sentence at a time. I would appreciate hearing your opinions on the overall theme, rather than a blow by blow critique regarding my choice of words. In re-reading the article after I found it again this morning, I really wanted to re-edit certain passages. Oh well, c’est la vie. It is what it is.

Anonymous said...


You are dead on!

Children will be taken from their home schooling parents because of mental abuse as I learned in late 80's early 90's while working hard to inform parents in WA state of OBE.

Texas is a shot across the bow and as you know is setting a precedent.

The schools believe it or not are going to be the 'HUB' of every neighborhood for just about everything including our reeducation as I've posted here before including mental health testing every six months or so.

Everyone is mentally ill at least once during any given year.

Remember the 'New Intitive' Bush tried to pass?

New Ager's including NGO's in late 80's said they controlled all neighborhoods in the US and were just waiting to come forward. I thought it was a joke at the time, wrong. Think. How politically correct and green is your area?

The secret is it's not the Religious Right that is in control, it's the PC's and Green's. Such is life.


Anonymous said...

Dorothy wrote;

"Antisemitism is alive and growing in Europe where synagogues have been torched and people killed. In this country Jews have been killed because they are Jewish."


Dorothy I live in the UK and I'm shocked and deeply saddened to read this. Are you able to say where in Europe this is happening please as I'm not hearing it through the mainstream news reports?

Many Thanks for any further info.


Anonymous said...

K, here a report which is quite detailed.

[PDF] Antisemitism in EuropeFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Antisemitism in Europe: Challenging Official Indifference .... This report examines the situation of antisemitism in Europe since mid-2002, when Fire ... - Similar pages

Just put in antisemitism and Europe into a search and you'll find many reports on the problem.


Anonymous said...

Here's a US Stae Department report dated 2005.


Anonymous said...

I started a study on Madam Blavatsky and her role in Freemasonry
"Madame Blavatsky, born Helena von Hahn, was a founder of the Theosophical Society. [1] Helena Blavatsky was also an Eastern Star Freemason,[citation needed] and wore an Eastern Star Emblem most of her life as a sign of respect to the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry."

Then her disciple Annie Besant,
"The discussions with Blavasty at the Blavatsky Lodge were collected in the Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge and contain many commentaries on the Secret Doctrine. The members of the Blavatsky Lodge were also involved in the publication of the Lucifer magazine.
After 1890, Annie Besant became president of the Blavatsky Lodge.
Then Annies involvement with the Fabian Society
She fought for the causes she thought were right, starting with freedom of thought, women's rights, secularism (she was a leading member of the National Secular Society alongside Charles Bradlaugh), birth control, Fabian socialism and workers' rights.

Then I found Tony Blairs name
The Society is affiliated to the Party as a socialist society. In recent years the Young Fabian group, founded in 1960, has become an important networking and discussion organisation for younger (under 31) Labour Party activists and played a role in the 1994 election of Tony Blair as Labour Leader. Following a period of inactivity, the Scottish Young Fabians were reformed in 2005.

Anonymous said...

Will the Heterodox Be Saved?
Archimandite (Metropolitan) Philaret, of blessed memory (+1985)

Question: "If the Orthodox faith is the only true faith, can Christians of other confessions be saved? May a person who has led a perfectly righteous life on earth be saved on the strength of his ancestry, while not being baptized as Christian?

Answer: "For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth [struggleth], but of God that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:15-16). In the Orthodox Church we have the path of salvation indicated to us and we are given the means by which a person maybe morally purified and have a direct promise of salvation. In this sense St. Cyprian of Carthage says that "outside the Church there is no salvation." In the Church is given that of which Apostle Peter writes to Christians (and only Christians): "According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 1:3-8). And what should one say of those outside the Church, who do not belong to her? Another apostle provides us with an idea: "For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth" (1 Cor. 5:12-13). God "will have mercy on whom He will have mercy" (Rom 9:18). It is necessary to mention only one thing: that to "lead a perfectly righteous life," as the questioner expressed it, means to live according to the commandments of the Beatitudes—which is beyond the power of one, outside the Orthodox Church, without the help of grace which is concealed within it.

The question: Can the heterodox, i.e. those who do, not belong to Orthodoxy—the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church—be saved, has become particularly painful and acute in our days.

In attempting to answer this question, it is necessary, first of all, to recall that in His Gospel the Lord Jesus Christ Himself mentions but one state of the human soul which unfailingly leads to perdition—i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:1-32). The Holy Spirit is, above all, the Spirit of Truth, as the Saviour loved to refer to Him. Accordingly, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Truth, conscious and persistent opposition to it. The same text makes it clear that even blasphemy against the Son of Man—i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God Himself may be forgiven men, as it may be uttered in error or in ignorance and, subsequently may be covered by conversion and repentance (an example of such a converted and repentant blasphemer is the Apostle Paul. (See Acts 26:11 and I Tim. 1:13.) If, however, a man opposes the Truth which he clearly apprehends by his reason and, conscience, he becomes blind and commits spiritual suicide, for he thereby likens himself to the devil, who believes in God and dreads Him, yet hates, blasphemes, and opposes Him.

Thus, man's refusal to accept the Divine Truth and his opposition thereto makes him a son of damnation. Accordingly, in sending His disciples to preach, the Lord told them: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk. 16:16), for the latter heard the Lord's Truth and was called upon to accept it, yet refused, thereby inheriting the damnation of those who "believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (II Thes. 2:12).

The Holy Orthodox Church is the repository of the divinely revealed Truth in all its fullness and fidelity to apostolic Tradition. Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with eternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold. It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth...* They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way.

With reference to the above question, it is particularly instructive to recall the answer once given to an inquirer by the Blessed Theophan the Recluse. The blessed one replied more or less thus: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

We believe the foregoing answer by the saintly ascetic to be the best that can be given in this matter.
* The Greek word for "heresy" is derived from the word for "choice" and hence inherently implies conscious, willful rejection or opposition to the Divine Truth manifest in the Orthodox Church.

From Orthodox Life, Vol. 34, No. 6 (Nov.-Dec., 1984), pp. 33-36.

HK-91 said...


I have read your post and determined that I need to limit my posts to 3 or less sentences. Thank you.


Anonymous said...

alleluia you can hear.

Anonymous said...


That was a sweet post. I'm the female version of that story, saved from myself by God's good grace.

In Him,


Anonymous said...

Thanks Deannie,
I'm all done writing about me, and
I know that this forum is about many
things much bigger than any individual.
It was only in response to Dorothy
calling me an antisemite twice now,
and just to point out that my
attitude is gratitude, and that I
couldn't very well harbor ill
feelings toward anyone after all
that the Lord has forgiven me
I've never been slandered before
and it's such a weird feeling !
It's a lie Dorothy, and thank you !


Nice summation of a touchy
subject. Beautiful.

I should have half of your tact,
discretion and Christian compassion
but I don't yet. Someday...
Super post.

Jacob Prasch of Moriel Ministries
points out that more Jewish
people have come to Christ in
the last twenty years that in the
previous hundred. He points
out that the Church began with
Jews and is ending with Jews.
The Gentile world is in fact
experiencing the Great Apostasy.
The "Times of the Gentiles" is
almost over. The Age of Grace,
The Christian Era, The Church Age,
is just about done.
Hear that whistle blowing ?
All aboard !


Anonymous said...

Paul, you'll never be done posting your opinions, which in actuality is more information about yourself. You like being the center of attention too much.

Try posting information about the New Age movement instead of yourself.


Anonymous said...

Just to clarify my position (from the previous blog) . . .

The Merriam Webster Dictionary's definition of the word, "proselytize" is as follows:

1) to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2) to recruit someone to join one's party, institution, or cause

So, while everyone on this blog is absolutely free to "share" his/her faith, does that also give a person the "right" to insist that certain people, who might not share one's particular view, are going to spend eternity in Hell? Does that also give that person the right to claim that he/she speaks for God, who is the final judge and jury for each and everyone of us?


Anonymous said...

I would put it this way. I wouldn't stop anyone from writing what they believe their religion says unless what they write breaks the civil law or suggests breaking the civil law.

It doesn't mean I have to believe what they say any more than I have to believe someone who is promoting the New Age movement or Buddhism for example.

I have yet to write about the viewing of the Moses Code which I sat through. At the end there was a film called I Saw God In The Street. As a young guitar playing man merrily sang, people were walking around with signs saying "I AM GOD" or "I AM THE GODDESS." I was overwhelmed by their stupidity and I didn't believe them.

I view Setterman's comment in the same way. He's not doing anything illegal. If his religious group came to power,then I would worry about the laws being changed. As it goes, he hasn't channeled God and can't send anyone to the Christian view of hell.


Anonymous said...


I have a personal story that illustrates how the NA has infiltrated the Christian Church. I was attending an Evangelical Free Church that began to embrace Rick Warren's 40 days of purpose program. Initially, the changes were very subtle: sermons switched from expository to topical, Bible studies became studies of books about the Bible - not books from the Bible, and the church library began carrying NA influenced "Christian" writers. I was a baby Christian, lacked discernment and was an avid reader - a potentially dangerous combination. I began to read some books that encouraged a closer walk with God through NA methodologies. There was no talk about changing my beliefs, only adding new methodologies. The NA doesn't begin with changing beliefs because people are on guard for that. Unsuspecting people adopt these methodologies and the change in belief surely follows. This is where the church growth group (Rick Warren, Willow Creek, as well as the Emergent Church group touch the NA. You asked about how the NA affects the Catholics and the various Christian churches. I believe it's the adoption of NA methodologies. In the Christian churches, the methodologies include meditation (distinct from Biblical meditation), mantras and many more. The Christian churches just add the name Jesus and all is accepted (as in Jesus Yoga). Rose can probably speak to how these methodologies have entered the Catholic church and you might give insight into how it affects Judaism. I have observed it entering the Muslim religion via Eboo Patel (Participant and speaker at AoC Madrid Conference - specialty: youth). He is considered the Rick Warren of Islam. He will be addressing the US Presidential candidates this Sunday on CNN at the Compassion Forum. You can check his work here:

So, what I saw in our church was the gradual adoption of these methodologies. Eventually, people who embrace them are weaned from their reliance on their doctrines. The Protestants, Catholics, Jews and Muslims all have their Bibles and Korans, respectively. The importance of separating each group from their respective doctrines can't be overstated. It is from these sources, the respective groups get their worldviews. People who hold strongly to these doctrines will be seen has stubborn, intolerant and the source of conflict in the world. In each religion we see a mystical branch (mystical Christianity, Sufism and Kabbalah). We also see a conservative, dogmatic, branch. (Bible believing - some would say Fundamentalist Christian, "Radical" Islam, and Conservative and Hasidic Jews.) These last groups CAN NOT be prepared for The Shift if they hold fast to their doctrines. This is why Rudi was measuring the Rick Warren phenomena and Emerging Church against docrine (i.e. the Bible). Each religion's conservative branch will do the same. The further away each respective religions' divisions stray from their doctrines, you will see a greater receptivity to NA deceptions.

Our EV Free church, unknown to them, was being prepared for this Shift. My dabbling in these methodologies caused me to make some very unwise decisions, for which I am still paying six years later. We have since left the church and have found a solid Bible preaching church which resists and warns about these methodologies frequently. This is why you will see most Bible centered Christians as very hostile to any deviation from Scripture. We are taught to guard the faith from false teachings. We let down our guard at our own peril. I am living proof.

I bet you will see Hasidic Jews and Tradional Catholics just as strongly holding fast to their doctrines. They will probably tell you that once people fudge on doctrine a little, the slide eventually becomes complete and those "apostates" begin to change their worldview to one of tolerance and diversity (then, for example, they embrace abortion and eventually population control sounds like a good idea and finally the NA ideas sound rather normal to their ears.) It's a subtle and cunning process that begins with separation of the group from their doctrines and especially it's source. Once that foundation is missing, those people are standing on shifting sands with no higher authority to which they might appeal.

I believe, BIBLE BELIEVING Christians (both Catholic and Protestant), conservative Jews, and Conservative Muslims will all be targets of the NA. Currently, the NA is trying to rip them from their foundations using stealth techniques. When this fails for a significant portion of each religion, they will resort to increasingly coercive measures. See Canada and Europe for a preview.

I don't know if that answers some of your questions. My advice is research the methologies. The fruits of those methodologies become aparent fairly quickly.



Anonymous said...

The False Messiah and his False Prophet
are counterfeits of the real things;
Jesus and John the Baptist who
announced his arrival.
The idea of a paradigm shift is just
a counterfeit new birth experience.
Everything about the New Age is
a mockery or imitation of the
Kingdom of Heaven.
We see in the Book of Job how
Satan is only allowed certain
parameters at certain times.
These days it's far, wide and deep.


Anonymous said...

Thank you for the very clear write-up about how change occurs. Particularly important is how you describe how the additional material comes in before the subtle shift takes place.

Most people have very short attention spans, and they look to today rather than comparing what things were even a year ago, much less ten years ago. I think it's why older people perceive more quickly the changes taking place because they can look back, look at what they see now and note what is missing.

I'm looking at a movement among some very liberal rabbis that has ties with Rick Warren. I can see where the "Jesus was just a very special man" theme would work to pull some of them into unity with liberal Christians, not realizing how they are being pulled into New Age ideas.

A long time ago Constance pointed out that NAgers have something for everyone. People will tend to believe those who have similar ideas and who they feel they can trust. Jews who would never accept what they could see as pagan beliefs are pulled in through alternative health ideas. A pretty crystal here, an angel statue there, a nice Chinese motto, a self-help book, then maybe a historical Egyptian goddess statue, then throw in a little Buddhism. What's wrong with being open-minded they would say. Pretty soon it's all emotions and all logical thinking ability goes out the door.

Thanks again for the very good write-up which carries a message for all of us.


Constance Cumbey said...

Dear Gang:

Have more to do than is humanly possible -- and have been attempting to catch up my office sans secretarial assistance -- tough blend! Then Sunday night, we had a power brown out which disabled elevators and automatic garage door at my office building -- I had to spend the night in my office -- then to court at 8:30 a.m. and then all I was good for was home and to bed -- have a federal court filing deadline by Thursday, the 24th and so, have been away.

I WILL HAVE OPEN LINES RE EARTH DAY and needless to say, I need your help online today on

Love to all,

Anonymous said...


I could detail much more about personal dynamics and the subtle ostracizing of people who hold fast to doctrine. The Hegelian Dialectic is rampant in the church growth movement. Eventually, the "recalcitrant Bible thumpers" are marginalized and leave. Once that happens, the church is ripe for The Shift. But the very first step is downplaying doctrine. It is so subtle. We used to study the Book of Romans and the Book of Isaiah for instance. Then, they offer, in addition to those, a book such as Bringing Up Boys by James Dobson. The next time, they offer those plus The Jesus I Never Knew by Phillip Yancey (or some other books that are not the Bible but are "based" on Biblical teaching.) Eventually, Isaiah gets dropped due to "lack of interest." It's Old Testament anyway, who knows that much about goes the rationale. Eventually, Romans gets dropped too and all the studies that are offered are Christian Living books. And the people are not taught doctrine - the Bible equates this to starving the flock. Eventually, only the older generation knows doctrine and the younger leadership expects them to die off anyway. Without that foundation, the congregation is asking to be deceived. Then, when books by NA inspired "Christian" writers enter the church library or are passed around by active members of the congregation, they are uncritically accepted. I think this is being replayed in each monotheistic religion. Read a little about Eboo Patel and you will find he downplays doctrine. The Muslims MUST reinterpret the Koran before any of them can make The Shift. Some will, but many will not. They will have to coerced. They are the problem. You see the letter to the Muslims signed by "Evangelical Leaders." There are Muslims who are happy to have a dialogue with them. And, as you mentioned, Jewish Rabbis too. The common denominator is the division within each religion which has most successfully released itself from the confines of their doctrine and its source. This is what allows for "ecumenism." It sounds so good. After all, who wants to fight? But in the end, the pressure is for all of us to be wishy washy about our beliefs, even embarrassed by them or embarrassed by our "recalcitrant or beligerent" attitudes. This pressure is being applied in every monotheistic religion. I would be curious to see what tension exists between conservative and Hasidic Jews and those who are liberal and secular Jews. (There is huge tension between Bible believing Christians and the Rick Warren type churches and the Emergent churches.) I personally only know secular Jews and they have no use for doctrine of any kind. I would love to know if there is any in roads into conservative and Hasidic circles such as what I found in the EV Free church. Are there any stealth means to get them to meditate (in a NA manner), do "Jewish" yoga, chant mantras, etc? What do you find?



Anonymous said...

Deenie ,
Messianic Jews believe in Jesus
as Messiah. They are a small
but rapidly growing remnant.


Anonymous said...

...or you could use this:


Rudi said...

Hi Deannie-
Thank you for your own personal, absolutely brillant, summary of how New Age theology enters an evangelical church. -Rudi

Alf Cengia said...

Dorothy said:
I'm looking at a movement among some very liberal rabbis that has ties with Rick Warren. I can see where the "Jesus was just a very special man" theme would work to pull some of them into unity with liberal Christians, not realizing how they are being pulled into New Age ideas.

Yogananda, and a host of others who went to the US to find their fortunes, would liberally sprinkle a few Bible verses here and there just to give a little "Christian" flavour to their Hindu-based beliefs. And a lot of people got sucked in (including me). It's still happening in many forms.

Anonymous said...


Thank you for your intelligent insight into the New Age Movement's "infiltration" into ALL of the religions.

As a conservative Catholic Christian, I have lived on this earth long enough to remember what the Catholic Church was like pre-Vatican II. I am not happy with the changes (post-Vatican II).

Pope Benedict VI is a very conservative scholarly Pope (although he is surrounded by some liberal "modernistic" cardinals & bishops). If "by their fruits ye shall know them," I believe that this Pope is showing (by his actions) that he is a good and holy man; who is doing his best to make positive changes and to "purify" the church. Time will tell.

Either way, my Catholic faith is rock solid . . . as my faith is in God, not in human beings.

Since I had my 12 years of Catholic school education before Vatican II (with the Baltimore Catechism), I wasn't influenced by the post-Vatican II (more liberal progressive) theology of the late 1960s.

What helps keep me "centered" today (besides daily prayer and attending Mass at a conservative parish) is Michael Brown's conservative Catholic web site: . . . and also EWTN (a conservative Catholic cable television network started by Mother Angelica in the 1980s shown in 127 countries).

Several years ago, a very wise person taught me that -- the more we pray and stay close to God -- the more God will "lift the veil from our eyes." This keeps our judgement from becoming "clouded" and helps us to more clearly "interpret" signs around us.

Back in 1983, I was flipping cable channels on my TV one night -- and heard Constance Cumbey speak and warn about the New Age Movement. The very next day, I went out and bought her book, "The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow."

I am grateful for this blog -- and the opportunity to have others share their valuable information exposing this New Age Movement . . . as we continue to take daily "baby steps" in our education.


Anonymous said...

Dorothy - Thank You for the link to the article.

The accounts I read about that are happening in the UK are, I'm sad to say, typical of what many churches, synagogues, mosques and individuals are having to endure. I sincerely hope there is not more hostility towards one faith than another ... it just feels as if we're all 'fair game' these days to whoever the instigators of these diabolical acts are.

The hatred seems to regularly overspill into other areas too not just places and people of faith ... pity the poor workers and suppliers at some of the animal testing science laboratories ... they have been undergoing some nasty personal and corporate attacks against themselves and their property.

Thanks again for the link Dorothy.


Dawn said...


I really thought that your analysis of the infiltration into churches.

I don't know if this is a stretch but often the churches that go into debt to buy their buildings that seem like they turn more quickly.

They have to get people in the pews. So they start offering more watered down messages and it follows much of what you have described. I have seen it in more than one church.

Anonymous said...

Dawn wrote;

"... the churches that go into debt to buy their buildings ..."


WOW - I didn't know churches ever did this!!!


Anonymous said...

If anyone is interested in photos of "Peace Pole" from Londonderry, you may e-mail me and I'll send them to you.

Anonymous said...


I recently heard from a close friend, who is in a position to know, that our former church is hurting financially. The church had watered down the Gospel to make "unchurched" people feel welcome. Unfortunately, a great many of them are not real believers and they do not volunteer time nor do they tithe - but the pews are full.

You may be right about the thought of those in debt....


Anonymous said...

Dorothy - I went a 'googling' and came across this interesting consultation (which you may or may not be aware of) on anti-semitism by the Church of Scotland;

You are indeed correct ... sadly it is on the rise in Europe - thank you for saying so. The report's findings also briefly mention in passing that "other racial and religious groups are also experiencing a rise in attacks, in prejudice and in discrimination."


Anonymous said...


I don't know much about Vatican II and its changes. I'm curious to know if some of the Catholic churches are using NA techniques like meditation, mantras, etc. We have a local Methodist church that has created a labrynth for its members to draw closer to God. The techniques I learned at our former church are similar to those people in the NA use to connect to their spirit guides. Do you see any of this in the Catholiic church? Constance or Dorothy can probably name all the various methods used by the NA.


Rudi said...


“Mankind is one, the United Nations is unique and we have to deal with problems in a way which attracts people to believe in the United Nations, in its basic values, in the relevance of the United Nations and its authority.” April 1, 2008 Press Conference

Thank you for sharing your expertly written article, “Eden Revisited”. In particular, I’d like to comment on the section where you wrote,
“Perhaps the ultimate question that needs to be answered is this: If we believe that God created mankind, that He put us on this earth and told us to have dominion over it, then the land rightfully belongs to us. It is a gift to be enjoyed. It is our responsibility to take good care of it. We certainly have the right to use it to meet our needs. But if the earth itself is some sort of supreme deity, and we belong to "her" as the environmental elites like to claim, then we should bow our heads and take our place as her subjects with no greater rights than the lowly amoeba.”

I thought the article was excellent, and your analysis worthy of serious consideration in relationship to all UN Climate Change initiatives currently on the global table. Perhaps some of those who read here haven't understood why I keep bringing up The Global Marshall Plan and the International Community’s efforts to see the Millennium Development Goals implemented by 2015. When I consider not simply WHO the individuals are that now occupy strategic positions of authority, but WHAT these “experts” share as their worldview, (including a universal belief in evolution, sustainable development including its application in the areas of population control, (reduction) and eugenics)it isn't hard to imagine several worst case scenarios.
One example, (MDG 1): “To eradicate extreme poverty and hunger. Target 1: Halve , between 1990 and 2015, the proportion of people whose income is less than one dollar a day. Target 2: To halve the proportion of people who suffer from hunger by 2015.”

Very worthy goals. But then consider: “The International Food Policy Research Institute (IFPRI) in it’s most recent report on the world food situation notes that even countries with high incidence of hunger GREW (my emphasis) significantly in recent years.”
See United Nations Population Fund
How do you cut in half the number of extremely hungry, sick and poverty stricken population if the world food supply can't meet the needs of an ever increasing population???
Consider this article by Walter P. Kistler (President of the Foundation for the Future)titled,
"Genetics in the New Millennium
The Promise of Reprogencis"
This group’s advisers include Barbara Marx Hubbard, Robert Mueller, and Honorary President of the Club of Rome, Ricardo Diez-Hochleitner. I'm sure with like-minded global planners over-seeing the implementation of the MDG's, our brightest days are just ahead. Yeah, right. -Rudi

Anonymous said...

keep constance in prayer at this time

Anonymous said...

Here is a list of famous Free Masons

You will be surprised.

There are some unmentioned who are some of our world leaders today.

Anonymous said...


To answer your question (10:14PM):

While I attend a Conservative Catholic Church, which remains steeped in our traditional church teachings, I have been greatly helped by Michael H. Brown's conservative Catholic web site which keeps me up on everything that is going on (the good, the bad and the ugly).

Since Vatican II . . . there is a "radical fringe element" of certain priests and nuns who do openly promote New Age beliefs and practices. Thank God that they are in the minority and not the majority.

There are some radical priests and nuns who are teaching trusting Catholics everything from Hindu meditation, to visualization techniques, to cultivating spirit guides. All of these, of course, are practices that are opposed to Catholic doctrine.

God gave me a brain, logic and common sense to KNOW to stay away from any of this . . . and to try to warn other Catholics to do the same.

There is also the homosexual problem within the church. After Vatican II, gay men were allowed to enter the priesthood. It was very unrealistic to expect a gay man to adjust to taking a vow of celibacy. As a result, we had priests having sex with young boys and a huge scandal erupted worldwide. Even though 97% of Catholic priests are good, holy men . . . 3% is still unacceptable.

Pope Benedict VI is working hard to weed out these "rotten apples" . . . sending the message that it is better to have fewer "good" priests than a large number of priests (where some ignore church teachings).

The Catholic Church has remained constant since 33 AD, so I keep going back to the words of Jesus:
"And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18 KJV)

So, I know that our church will survive, but not without going through a "purification" first. There is a lot of work to be done . . . and only time will tell who the "players" are and who will rise to the occasion.


Anonymous said...


If the reports are true, and workers are being killed trying to deliver goods to some of these famine-striken countries, and the UN has stopped some shipments of food aid due to regimes who won't distribute it,

How on earth are we going to get food to these people who need it? I really doubt the UPS or Fed EX is going to drop ship.

This food crisis is a serious problem, and I am for one glad that Glenn Beck has been covering it so thoroughly.

The MDG are worthy sounding, but seem a little too late in light of what is going on in the world now.


Anonymous said...

Dear anon. 3:32
Interesting list.
I wonder why they left out such
luminaries as John Wilkes Booth,
Timothy McVeigh, &
Saddam Hussein among others.
I wonder why they don't explain
how African Americans where
shunned for so long despite
the TOKEN Prince Hall lodge
which is still shunned by all
those Freemasons who are
also KKK, too numeous to count.


Anonymous said...

...and too secretive to know for sure.


Anonymous said...

Also, the list is deceptive of course.
They wouldn't know how to be any
thing else. For instance, though they
claim W.A. Mozart as their very own,
he in fact tried to leave, and composed
an expose of Freemasonry,
( The Magic Flute ) when he unexpectedly
turned up dead, just like Abraham Lincoln,
and John F Kennedy, both of whom
crossed the Lodge line.

George Washington was a Frier Mason
until he got elected, when he agreed
that there should be no conflict of
interest with an American president,
so he quit; a lesson that is lost on
todays presidents including the
Skull & Bones Bush brother, who
couldn't wait to pledge to the cult of
death, and now can't/won't answer any
questions about it.


Anonymous said...


The true Jewish perspective of the Messiah, Anti-Christ, tribulation and resurrection.

Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV )


Dan 11:36
"And the king shall do as he wills. He shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is decreed shall be done.
Dan 11:37
He shall pay no attention to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38
He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these. A god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.
Dan 11:39
He shall deal with the strongest fortresses with the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall load with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.


Dan 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.
Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


This is in response to a question asked by Paul a few days ago about the Jewish perspective of the anti-christ.
Obviously there are more scriptures in Daniel about him than I've written here. So seeing Dorothy's response shocked me a little.

Resident of the EU empire.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, forgot to include this verse

Dan 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Anonymous said...

Thanks Adam, very much !


Anonymous said...

Ah, It seems I miss quoted Paul and Dorothy in my memory, Sorry.

"What could possibly be the point
in studying and trying to expose
an Antichrist but not believing in
a Christ ?

"You want to know what I think about the antichrist theory? I think people tend to use it to avoid taking personal action. If people are told it's the Antichrist running things, it's too big to fight, so they just fold.


I think my comment was still relevant to the blog though :)

Anonymous said...

Paul and Dorothy, you are both in my thoughts daily.
Thanks for being here (Same to everyone else that visits the blog)


Anonymous said...


I knew that there were 3 members of the Bush family (3 generations) who were members of the Yale Skull and Bones Secret Society: Prescott, George Herbert Walker, and George W.

Was there a "brother" who was a member also? Just curious.


Anonymous said...


Since there is no copyright on the Bible, I guess Christians can feel free to interpret the Jewish Bible. That doesn't mean Jews have to accept the interpretation. Jews have their own interpretation of "false messiah" and "antichrist." I can tell you that the topic hardly ever comes up.

Jews have their own commentary on the Book of Daniel.

If you want to try and make the point that something in the Jewish Bible fits in with your beliefs, you might try using a Jewish source rather than a Christian one.


Anonymous said...

Dorothy -- I would like to hear your take on the Obama campaign. The phrase that comes into my head about is, "The first postmodern presidential campaign." Irony seems to be the undercurrent of this campaign. Voters are being played at so many levels -- one level particularly disturbing is that people are going along with it knowingly.

The Jeremiah Wright thing is huge --both for the New Age connections at the church, and the connections to Farrakahn. Obama's handlers are testing the waters, pushing the envelope further and further, wink wink nudge nudge, to see how far he can go without alienating voters.

Would a mainstream presidential candidate with ties to a New Age church and to Farrakhan have been allowed to proceed so confidently and gingerly with these ties, say, 15 years ago? What is your view of the Jewish community's response to Obama's ties to Wright?

Leana -- thank you for a very eloquent and thought provoking post. I am on my way out the door but will respond to you later today or tomorrow. You certainly have got me thinking about the way fundamentalism is portrayed in the media among other things!


Rudi said...

Leana- You wrote: "How on earth are we going to get food to these people who need it?"

I wonder about this also, and then again I don't. There is so much "dicussion" taking place about this "World Food Crisis". Like every piece of information we have access to, how much of it is factual is anyone's guess. One thing I don't accept is that this "crisis" is the result of too many people, and not enough food to go around. Common sense tells me, if those who are "minding the store" really wanted to "eradicate extreme poverty and hunger" there are pockets deep enough and technology advanced enough to transport food. There are certainly sufficient resources to convene yet ANOTHER high-level International Conference on World Food Security and the Challenges of Climate Change and Bioenergy in Rome from June 3 to 5, 2008. From the conference brochure:
“It is hoped that this major conference will mark the start of enhanced international efforts to link climate change, bioenergy and food security, aimed at strengthing existing development networks and partnerships and contributing to efforts both to save the environment and defeat global hunger.” -Rudi

Anonymous said...

So you don't class Messianic Jews as Jews at all then?
Some orthodox Jews have badly persecuted Messianic Jews in Israel and maybe other countries.

You don't have to accept my interpretation of the scriptures But you also don't have to fit into some orthodox box to be Jewish.

"If you want to try and make the point that something in the Jewish Bible fits in with your beliefs, you might try using a Jewish source rather than a Christian one."
What do you mean by that? "Christianity" came from Israel for the Jewish people, you can except it or not it's your choice.
My Messiah came to fulfill the law not to destroy it, meaning that this isn't some kind of new religion it's the fulfillment of what the prophets have said.

I don't go to "church" and I don't class myself as a "Christian" But I do believe that the Messiah has come and that I have brothers and sisters through him whatever country or clan they're from, I probably believe a lot of the same things as them But it doesn't mean it's any less Jewish.

Whatever your choice in life Dorothy, I will always respect your decision.
I thank you for reading comments about "Christianity" without being too offended, If anyone gets annoying with it please remember we mean no harm, In fact "Christians" normally talk to non "Christians" about it because they're really concerned and care for them.

I still hold by my comment of "thanks for being here"
Take care

Anonymous said...

From a very Jewish source:

"Forty years before the Temple was destroyed (30 A.D.) the chosen lot was not picked with the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe turn white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the Temple’s Holy Place swung open by themselves, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai spoke saying: 'O most Holy Place, why have you become disturbed? I know full well that your destiny will be destruction, for the prophet Zechariah ben Iddo has already spoken regarding you saying: 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).' Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Last post by: [Adam]

Anonymous said...

Talmud, Rodkinson English translation:

pdf file of Yoma.


Anonymous said...

Connie- I don't know if this aspect of the compound raid of the kids was mentioned here or not- it is hard for me to get on the net right now and I haven't been able to read each and every thing at the moment (car not working, etc, boo-hoo)- anyway, I heard on some newscast that the authorities lied to the people at first about why or where they were taking the kids. That aspect I find disturbing.

Anonymous said...

It's just my poor writing skills.
I meant ...Skull & Bones brother, Bush.


Anonymous said...

So it's called the "Jewish Bible" now?
That's odd, The word "Jewish" doesn't
show up in the Bible until the book
of Titus which is New Testament,
whoops, The word "Jews" isn't in the
sacred Torah at all but it does
come along in II Kings. The word
"Jew" finally shows up in Esther 2:5.

I just call it the Holy Bible because
it is, and it's probably the only Holy
thing on earth.


Anonymous said...

Etymology of the word bible:

Origin of the word Jew

Books in the Jewish Bible

Just a reminder that no one was speaking English thousands of years ago. Word have sounds which change the letters as the translation takes place.


Anonymous said...

Messianic Jews have left the religion of Judaism and adopted Christianity. At least that's how it is supposed to work. If it was a perfect system, Jews who practiced Buddhism would also not be considered Jews as would Jews who practiced the New Age religion. I believe what the problem is when considering Messianic Jews is that they are very aggressive and have been found to distort Judaism in many cases in an effort to get Jews to accept Christianity.

As far as sources, the Torah must be copied perfectly everytime a new scroll is written. A single error and the scroll can't be used. This means better authenticity. Although many people like the KJV of the Bible, there are many, many different translations for Christians. Meanings of words have been distorted many times as the different translations are accepted.

Although I appreciate your finding the quote from Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b I don't know what point you are trying to make. The Talmud is Oral Torah which was passed down by word of mouth until it was written down about 500 AD.

Thanks for your kind thoughts.


Anonymous said...

What do I think about Obama? Based on the occult iconography, the propaganda that he is some sort of ideal man, his connection with antisemitic, communist and terrorist background individuals, his connection with corrupt Chicago politicians, his lack of political achievements but strong liberal connections, his condescending comment about religious people, his Muslim associates in Africa, I don't like him. He is the perfect New Age candidate as like all of the NA practitioners he manipulates emotions, sells the idea of positive possibilities without a money back guarantee, and is a sweet talker.

Some diehard Jews like Obama because they are Democrats. Many others know that if he gets in, Israel will have a much harder chance defending itself against rockets.


Anonymous said...

The Bible is comprised of 66 separate books, written over 1,600 years, by 40 authors. The Old Testament contains 39 books written from 1500-400 BC, and the New Testament contains 27 books written from 40-90 AD.

The history of the "Bible" begins with the Jewish Scriptures. The historical record of the Jews was written down on leather scrolls and tablets over centuries, and the authors included kings, shepherds, prophets and other leaders. The first 5 books are called the Law, written and edited primarily by Moses in the early 1400s BC.

Beginning in 250 BC, the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek by Jewish scholars in Alexandria, Egypt. The Jewish Scriptures were copied by hand and intricate methods were used to preserve accuracy.

Jesus was born in approximately 4 BC. Throughout his teaching, Jesus often quoted from the Old Testament, declaring that he did not come to destroy the Jewish Scriptures, but to fulfill them. In the Book of Luke, Jesus proclaims to his disciples, "all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Starting in about 40 AD, and continuing to about 90 AD, the eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus, including Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter and Jude, wrote the Gospels, letters and books that became the Bible's New Testament. These authors quote from 31 books of the Old Testament, and widely circulate their material so that by about 150 AD, early Christians were referring to the entire set of writings as the "New Covenant."

Constance Cumbey said...

Checking in -- still frantically trying to finish a brief due to the federal courts by tomorrow (4-24-08) and am in court on another matter -- must now go home to bed -- little time to look in as I would like this week.

For the record, I do stand by this quote from my 1983 book, THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW:

"It appears to culminate in a scheme both fulfilling the prophetic
requirements for the antichrist as set forth in the Bible, and also matching Nazism down to the use of swastikas.”

I invoke the Bible (prophecy and all) and I invoke historical precedent -- both without apology!

Thanks to all. Please pray very har for me tonight!


Anonymous said...

The Torah is the first five books
of the Bible, also known as the
Pentateuch, or just "Moses" or
just "The Law"
The oral tradition that you refer
to is called the Mishna, and it
is Apocrypha. The words that were
memorized by scribes are the
words of the so called "sages".
They were memorized and passed
down during the seventy years
of captivity in Babylon ( they were
not allowed to write anything down),
and they
reflect a very disgruntled, bitter
defeated people. The words of
the Talmud were originally and
ostensibly meant to be a commentary
on the scared Torah, and the
Mishna was what God supposedly said
to Moses on the moutain when
he got the Law from God.
Supposedly the actual written law
was just for fools and to this
day is considered fare for children
at best. Supposedly God secretly
deposited an oral set of Law,
that was the "real thing" which
explains why
the Mishna / Talmud is so very
much different in tone and
spirit than the Torah, Jesus knew
all about the Mishna because it
was the tradition that had usurped
the authority of the Torah in his
time. The Mishna was what the
Scribes and Pharrasees operated
under. The Mishna was completely
racist and the Talmud reflects that
with it's added-on hatred for Jesus.
Jesus is called all manner of names
in the Talmud. Names that I wouldn't
call anyone ever. Mary, Jesus mother is
also slandered viciously in the Talmud.
The Talmud explains to it's readers that
the Gentiles are no better that animals,
and in fact should be considered
as such and in fact it's okey to steal
and exploit Gentiles since they are
animals and not men.
Many many Jewish people have fallen
for the Talmud, but many many Jewish
people have stayed with the Law and
the precepts and the ordinances of the
Bible. Only God knows the percentages.
The Talmud is at odds with the Torah
and there is no believing both, It's
one or the other.
Believe what you want but remember
that loyalty to your local Talmud
believer is at your own risk.
Try reading the Bible for yourself.


Anonymous said...

Dorothy: Regarding your comments on Obama- you are right on target (as usual) Many Jews, unbelievably, continue to vote Democrat, whether the candidate supports Israel or not. And many Democrats do not give a hoot if Israel is wiped off the map. As Michael Savage has said: Liberalism is a mental disorder. How else can things like this be explained? Even President Bush recently said that Israel is occupying "Arab Land"! Years ago, I had a Jewish friend who was from New York. He was very pro-PLO. At that time, I was ignorant of these issues, but know better now. And, of course, we know that NOBODY is going to wipe Israel off the map. Will

Anonymous said...

Dear God, our Heavenly Father, please watch over your humble servant, Constance Cumbey tonight in her time of need. Grant her spiritual strength, wisdom and peace of mind in continuing this important ministry.

In Jesus' name -- AMEN.

Anonymous said...

Paul: Thanks for your excellent(11:19 p.m.) commentary on Torah-Mishna-Talmud! Who Knew? Your knowledge on this is truly "Talmudic"! In Y'shua, Will

Anonymous said...

This may be off subject, but with regards to Dorothy and Paul's discussions I just want to bring something to the table.

1. Jews are not all of the physical descendants of Israel. There were 2 exiles, Southern and Northern Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom never corporately returned.

2. God promises to bring both Houses together one day ( Eze 37:15-28)
3. God promises to put His Torah on their hearts. Jeremiah 31:31-33.
4. God promises not one grain will fall to the ground when He shakes them from the nations. Amos 9.9

What does this have to do with anything? Everything. There is no such thing as a church per say in the Bible.. Now bear with me a moment. The ekklesia "the called out assembly" started in the Wilderness according to the Greek Septuagint. Yeshua said on this "rock" He would build the ekklesia. Sorry, to the Catholics on this forum, but the Rock appears for the first time in the Wilderness, remember when Moses was supposed to "speak to it" and he hits it instead.

What am I saying? God is restoring Israel. Israel had 12 sons, but the family is divided along the lines of Leah and Rachels descendants. Judah becomes the leadership from the side of Leah, and Joseph or his descendant Ephraim from the side of Rachael. Jacob is going back to meet Esau and he is scared. He splits the family in half in case one side is attacked. Later on Joseph, in Eygpt marries an Egyptian ( and the rabbis say you have to have a Jewish mother...) The family is reunited and Israel's about to die. He blesses Ephraim promising to may him a melo hagoyim ( the fulness of the nations or the multitude of the nations). To Judah he says, the sceptre will never depart.

Who leads the way to spy out the land? Caleb and Joshua ( Judah and Ephraim).
Who leads the divided kingdom? Rehoboam and Jeroboam ( Judah and Ephraim).

What does God do when He exiles the kingdoms to Assyria and Babylon. He divorces the Northern Kingdom ( Ephraim) for golden calf worship. He punishes Judah for 70 years for not observing the sabbath rest for the land. Judah comes back, Ephraim corporately does not.

In the book of Hosea, we see that the N.Kingdom will "no longer be God's people" and yet it is reversed later on and it says" they will become the sons of the living God". Paul and Peter both quote from the book of Hosea, but we assume they are talking about Gentiles ( Romans 9:25 and 1Pe2:10).

Yes and no. The N.Kingdom became as Gentiles. They lost their identity. It says so in Hosea. Can God forget His people. NO!! He will redeem them. Yeshua is the kinsman redeemer who dies for all of Israel. They don't know who they are but He knows them. As the gospel goes out among the nations, God is gathering up the lost sheep of the House of Israel among the nations.

Romans 11 says that "in the fullness of the nations"
(same promise that was given to Ephraim) all Israel will be saved. We always think that means that after the gospel goes to the nations, God will touch the Jews. Yes and no. God is touching the Jews in our day, but He has been touching the lost sheep for generations and generations.

There are only 12 entry ways into the New Jerusalem in the Book of Revelations, and the gates are named after the tribes of Israel. The foundations are the apostles. The only time before this in the apostles writings we see Tribal identification other than the Jews ( Judah, Benjamin Levi) is in Luke 2. Anna ( Hannah in heb.) is fasting and waiting for Yeshua. She's from the tribe of Asher. In the book of Samuel Hannah's husband, an Ephraimite gives her a double portion.. Ephraim was promised "a double portion"

The first-born blessing was split between Judah and Ephraim. Judah received kingship ( Yeshua's line) and Ephraim received physical multiplicity or fruitfulness. Remember the tribes did not recognize their brother Joseph when they went to Egypt. Today, the Jews don't recognize Joseph either. Joseph is the one holding the bread of life, but he doesn't look like Israel. He looks like an Egyptian. The family needs to reunite and become one house before the return of Yeshua.

When they left Egypt, it was a with a mixed multitude. Anyone who wanted to attach to Israel and their God was always welcome, remember Ruth?

All of this to say, do we know who we are in Yeshua and can we hear God's voice. Yeshua was the Torah who came in the flesh. He came to redeem His people. We are not two separate entities, the Church and Israel. We are one called out assembly made of living stones which go back to the saints of old. Abraham and Moses looked forward to Yeshua's day. We just look back at it.

Sorry about the long post. I did one & accidently erased it. We should not let our theology interfere with what the Scriptures say. If you read the text carefully ( using good lexicons) you will see that the translators have made a lot of mistakes and it effects our understanding of the Scriptures. There is no "Old and New Testament" God made covenants and He says that in Yeshua, those who were strangers are now brought near (Eph 2) into the commonwealth of Israel.

God didn't cancel out His Torah. He filled it with meaning to the full measure. Yeshua is the Word who became flesh. When we start to see Him on the pages of the Torah and realize that all of what God told Moses is for our instruction. i.e. the New Age Movement entering the church is a result of people not understanding Torah concepts of holiness and separation. Those are really strong themes that people are not being taught in many churches, thus labyrinths, and contemplative prayer,etc. We are the Temple of the living God now, but look at what Torah says about the Temple. How difficult it was to go into the Holy of Holies. Now we trample on this and say we are "free in Christ". This is a gross misunderstanding of the atoning work of Yeshua. Yes, we are free from the death penalty, but we don't use that freedom as a license to break God's Word.

Because many in the churches do not know their true identity in Yeshua, the Messiah, they don't think Genesis to Micah applies to them. Marconian tried to throw out the "Old Testament". He was labeled a heretic, but his title stuck "Old Testament". I beg to differ. There is much unfulfilled prophecy in the Tanach and it all applies to us. There is no Temple, no animal sacrifice, but according to Ezekiel even this will be restored in the Millennial Kingdom ( not to forgive sins, Yeshua did that). Well, I could say a lot more, but I think this is sufficient for now.

By the way, I am a Jew who lost my identity and was raised in the Catholic Church. I rejected that upbringing at an early age, came to know Yeshua and discovered these things by praying and seeking God's face with my many questions. I large portions of my family killed in the Shoah for being Jews.

Anonymous said...

For those of you who follow weather manipulation:


Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1:56,

That was gorgeous! I, for one, would love to hear more.


Anonymous said...

Anonymous 1:56,
As detailed and well meaning as your writeup is, the bottom line is that it is the writeup of one who follows Christianity.

Earlier on I wrote that belief is a matter of faith. Each individual will get to a level of gathered information they believe is truthful and then make the leap of faith to accept a belief system.
I do think you add to the body
of information of those who accept Christianity or who will eventually accept Christianity.

For those who wish to know how Jews interpret the Torah, there are many websites of value.

A search of antisemitic websites will show where Paul gets his information leading to the belief he has faith in, whatever it is.


Anonymous said...

To Rudi- I'm posting on a handheld, so must keep this short. Your picking up on Walter Kistler and his Foundation of the Future linking his interest in genomics and human engineering is right on. I've followed this guy for years. He is a card carrying eugenicist. He advocates that "poor people" should not procreate but rather use embryos free of their own defective DNA. This is in his autobiography. He passes out the Kistler Medal each year with a prize of $100,000 attached. He gave one to the notorious racist Arthur Jenson. He co-founded the World Future Society. He wants to direct human evolution via the ideas of transhumanism. He's a big player in rocket buisness, helped fund the Ansari X Prize, and has connections to the Seeds of Compassion crowd via Dee Dickenson an the McCaws (Skytel). He's getting very aged, but he has a busy staff at his foundation. Dias-Hochleitner ties into Solano and another AOC biggie Frederico Mayor. I think Kistler has Nazi roots because he came to the Usa with all the other Hitler rocket boys.NASA was loaded with these folks. He's my candidate for Dr. Strangelove. BEWARE his website. You will get hit with nasty computer attacks there. Btw, all of you Washingtonians, he operates out of Bellevue, WA.

Anonymous said...

I would love to tell you more. Not sure that is purpose of this forum, but I do think the Apostle Paul is the most misunderstood of all the Apostles. He never said Torah was abolished. He said that it doesn't save us. It never did. Abraham was justified by faith and all the other saints of Hebrews 11. It is about God's holiness, and it is His instruction.

Why did the Church of Constantine come along and change Passover and Shabbat, etc. ? It was because he didn't want to be associated with the so-called "Christ-killers" the Jews. He wasn't the first to make the error of disconnecting from the Olive Tree. Read some of the "church fathers" and you will see how anti-Semitic they were. Constantine just institutionalized it.

There are a lot of historical reasons why the Gentile believers ultimately split off from the Jews in the second and third centuries, which are too complex to discuss here, but safe to say it was something that happened over time.

Didn't Paul, tell us that he didn't want us to be ignorant of a "mystery". The mystery of the partial harding of Israel for the sake of the nations reminds us that we shouldn't be arrogant. (Romans 11)

I think the arrogance or spirit of "lawlessness" (torahlessness) started in Paul's day, according to his words. There were already Gnostics and mystics and all kinds of other people perverting the truth( you see there is nothing new under the sun. Satan's schemes haven't changed much since the Garden and Babel) .

When we read his Epistles, do we really understand who he is talking to? We think Judiazers are those who obey Torah. That's false. Our Master, Yeshua obeyed Torah. He interpreted it correctly. We are not saved by doing that. We are just sanctified when we walk in His ways, instead of in our own wisdom.

Do we understand God's appointments (Lev 23)? They are all talking about Yeshua. His First Coming and His Second. The Bible is filled with treasures and riches that will protect us in these days. Have we thrown them away for the sake of our vain human traditions?

I have prayed. studied and thought about this for a long time, especially after realizing what my people have gone through and how these things might have developed. How many times my people were persecuted on the basis of their Torah observance.

Do Christians really think they are going to make Jews jealous with a Jesus who eats pork, dishonors the Shabbat, etc., etc? I'm sorry to be so blunt, but Jews need to see Yeshua, the living Torah in our lives. They think we changed religions...Our Savior didn't start a new religion. He was 100% a Jew who lived out His faith.

Do not think I believe we should follow the rabbis. They have added things that are not biblical. In Talmud and Mishna you have oral tradition, which is supposedly from Sinai. Some may be, but a lot is probably not. We confuse rabbinic Judaism with Torah.

Yeshua criticized the 2nd Temple leaders of Judaism because they had replaced the Law of God with the tradition of man. When you read Him read carefully, what He is really saying. They tried to codify Moses, in reaction to the centuries of foreign occupation and Hellenization. In doing so, they could not see the Living God, who came to dwell among them. His sheep know Him and hear His voice.

When we read verses like" it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles you...." We need to understand context, context, context. He was referring to a tradition of the Jews of Second Temple Judaism of hand washing, which was not a Torah command. I could go on and on with many verses that the Christian Church has interpreted as abolishing the Torah...even though Yeshua said, "I did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it, and not one jot or tittle ( the smallest letters in the Hebrew alphabet) would pass away....heaven and earth would pass away, but not My Word. Matt 5:17-19. The fulfill here, is to fill to the full measure with significance.

A lot of people thing that Yeshua is the "end" of the Law, but the correct interpretation is "goal" of the Law. The Torah points us to Him. Every Word in the Scriptures is telling us about Him. Torah and Yeshua are not in opposition to one another.

What I am saying is, let Yeshua write the Torah on your heart. Ask Him if we've been following vain human traditions or His Word. As Him to open your eyes to the Scriptures and all that the Torah and Prophets said about Him. He is all over the pages of Torah.

Pray that God will call out His true remnant and reunite the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one stick in His hand (Eze 37:15-28). Ask what it means to take hold of a Jew's garment ( the tzizit, which represents obeying God's commandments) in the last days.( Zach 8:23)

The world will follow the spirit of Anti-Messiah, the spirit of Babylon or confusion, but God has not given us a spirit of confusion. He is a God of order and He has given us a Spirit of power and love and sound mind. We need to see how the "Greek" spirit has entered the Church from the beginning. Yes, the Bible is part written in Greek. That facilitated the spread of the gospel, ,but remember the Apostles were Jews ( with perhaps the exception of Luke who might have been part Jew or God fearer).

They wrote from a hebraic mindset and so when we interpret the Scriptures, we need to understand where the writers were coming from. We have been confused by 2000 years of historical distortions.

Today, with the nation of Israel being re-established, with the discovery of Dead Sea Scrolls, with the prophetic events we are seeing in our day, I personally believe that our Abba Father is speaking to His remnant. He's showing us the beginnings of the apostasy, thanks to people like Constance and others who are studying these trends. The apostasy will get much worse sadly. He is also restoring Torah to His people.

I am not talking about rabbinic Judaism, I am talking about the Torah which will go out from Zion (Is 2). Torah means "teachings, the goal, and in some senses Law". It is our heavenly Father's loving instructions to His children. I am so glad Yeshua paid the death penalty that I should have had, but heaven forbid if I disregard what it was He died for.

He died for my violations of the Torah. He justified me, but know I want to learn to walk in His ways so that my life will be blessed. As we obey Him, He opens our eyes to the meanings of all of these things that might seem picky to us from a 21st century perspective. There is no idle word in the Bible. It is all profitable for rebuking, reproving and training.

He came to "tabernacle" among us and He's coming again to establish His kingdom forever and ever. He is speaking to us in our day, so all who have ears, listen to what He is saying to His called-out assembly. He will walk us through these terrible days, as we listen to His voice.

As far as I can see, there is no "church gate" in the New Jerusalem,(see Revelations) so the question is are we willing to attach ourselves to the people of Israel ( whether we are a physical descendant or not) and be part of His called out assembly? I believe the true remnant will be made up of believers in Yeshua from the house of Judah, the house of Israel (Ephraim) and the nations, and we will be one assembly. This is the covenant of peace( shalom).

Sorry another long post...Shalom and blessings, may He speak to you clearly in these days..

Anonymous said...

Forgive me if I missed some of your posts or misunderstood something you said. There's a lot of posts and I haven't read all of them. Yes, I am Jewish and I believe in Yeshua. I don't consider myself Christian. I obey the Torah and have Jewish bloodline.

I don't believe in the false unity that says we can be one as the New Agers say. I believe we must have Yeshua at the center of our faith to be in true unity, the kind the Bible speaks of. In this regard bloodline is not so important. The nations come into the Covenant through the Lamb who shed His blood to purify the mercy seat in the heavens. As such they become part of Israel, not Christians. They don't replace Israel, they join into the covenants and become full heirs producing Olives, not apples or oranges. What does an Olive Tree produce? They partake of the same root, etc.

The word Christianity creates a lot confusion. Jehovah Witnesses call themselves Christians, Mormans do, Catholics do, Evangelicals, etc, etc. Even Obama's hate spewing Pastor calls himself one. I think we really define our faith in relation to the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....through the blood of Yeshua we have the right to be adopted into God's family.

Originally the name Christian was given by the Romans to insult Yeshua's followers. In the 21st Century, I prefer to make a clear distinction and let people know that I am not ashamed of being a Jew and following Torah, nor am I ashamed of following my Jewish Mashiach.

Call it semantics if you want, but Hitler wouldn't have cared about my faith in Yeshua if I was around 60 years ago when my family got killed. If I am Jewish enough for Hitler, I am Jewish enough for God.

I gather that you are a Jew, who does not believe in Yeshua? Shalom..

Alf Cengia said...

"The word Christianity creates a lot confusion. Jehovah Witnesses call themselves Christians, Mormans do, Catholics do, Evangelicals, etc, etc. Even Obama's hate spewing Pastor calls himself one."

Perhaps it isn't the word "Christianity" that creates the confusion so much as the pretenders calling themselves Christians. We are now seeing the same thing happening with the term "Evengelical" becoming hijacked by the "Emergent" types.

Anonymous said...

Hi Anonymous 4:18 AM
Welcome aboard. Maybe you can give your name or at least a nickname? There are many Anonymous posters here and it gets confusing at times.

Just to add a few of my thoughts quickly on the Torah etc.

I think if people actually study things like pork, they would see exactly why God called it an abomination, it's the most filthy thing you can eat. He didn't just deny us certain food, it was for our benefit.

I once said to Paul I'm glad he knows about the feasts of Israel But actually when you read the scriptures it says that they are the Lords feasts And believing in the Messiah only really becomes relevant to me when in connection with them, Glorifying spilt blood on a cross is a strange thing unless it's in context with the passover and the Torah For he is the lamb that covers our sin.

The seventh day sabbath was initiated by God when he created the heavens and the earth. I keep the sabbath Not out of religious exercise But with celebration, for it points to the coming millenium and is good for man to have a day of rest just like the soil we grow on needs a sabbath.

Take care everyone

Anonymous said...

To the two anonymous posts,

You mention this yourself and I'd
like to reiterate that Jesus said
"Why do you follow the traditions
of men and not the commandments
of God?"
He was referring to the Mishna, which
the Scribes and Pharrasees were based
on. It would become written Talmud
after he left this earth.
"Why do you, with your tradition, make
the Law of no effect?"

But again, Anonymous, AMEN and
thank you. Wow , the depth of it
all ! The beauty of Midrash !
Dorothy, for the umpteenth time,
I am not an antisemite, even if you,
with zero evidence, say it a hundred
times. Please stop slandering me.
I didn't say there was no
antisemitism in the world. There
surely is, and it is vile and primitive
and ugly.
I'm too grateful to the living God
to turn around and hate his beloved
people. It doesn't make sense !


Anonymous said...

Indeed hijacking is their M.O.
Think of the words; brotherhood,
spiritual, holy, and yes Christian
and you've got examples of
hijacked words.
The devil is a liar.


Anonymous said...

Dear Adam and Paul,

Thanks for your encouraging comments. I never know what to expect when I say things like that. For a nickname I'll use "J" if that's okay.

So shalom to all of you and May Abba bless you as you listen to His voice in the challenging days ahead.


Anonymous said...

How pagan is the world we live in ?
Well let's see;
The days of the week are all named
after pagan gods.
The months of the year are either
pagan gods or Roman emperors.
We have "holly"days instead of
We have phony, pseudo religions
like Sports Overboard and Art
for arts sake, and American Idol
( not much subtle about that ),
and of course the ubiquitous
TV which is so chock full
of witchcraft shows and gay
( sodomite ) shows and gambling
shows, and talk talk talk shows
like Oprah's New Age Course in
Miracles scam, and we have whole
channels with nothing but feminist
shows where men are continually
portrayed as weak, subservient,
ineffective large boys who would
be lost without the guidance of
their female handlers.
This flood of lies is come up to
our eyeballs and we are treading
water as we speak.

But, the Lord prepares a table for
us in the very presence of our
Bless the Lord all ye peoples.


Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:00,

I would love to hear more. Maybe we can talk via email. One of my best friends from college is Jewish but he can't answer my questions since it hasn't been a part of his life. We began a kosher diet more than a year ago due to health reasons (long story). Since then, we have gone through two cold/flu seasons without a sniffle (a family of 6 - 4 active school age kids). What began as a plan to help our family become more healthy has directed me to try to better understand what God was doing in the wilderness and during Jewish history. I strongly believe that God's plan of salvation can only be fully understood by understanding the ENTIRE Bible. I have been trying hard to understand Jesus' saying that He came to fulfil the law. I would love to hear more.


Anonymous said...

To Anonymous (1:56 AM) -- re: your comments below:
"There is no such thing as a church per say in the Bible."
"Sorry, to the Catholics on this forum, but the Rock appears for the first time in the Wilderness, remember when Moses was supposed to "speak to it" and he hits it instead."
"If you read the text carefully . . . you will see that the translators have made a lot of mistakes and it effects our understanding of the Scriptures."

Well, one day (maybe in the not too distant future), God Himself will settle these "debates" once and for all. In the meantime, there are certain basic "truths" that can not be ignored.

1) Jesus Christ was born on this earth as a Jew. Jesus was presented in the Jewish temple as a 12 year old boy to study and learn from his elders . . . as His teaching days were still ahead of Him.

2) In approximately 33 AD, just before Jesus Christ was crucified and died for the sins of all mankind, He created the Catholic Church and made Peter His first Pope. According to Matthew 16:18 (KJV), there is mo mistaking the words of Jesus to Peter . . .
"And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

3) The Protestant sect (of which there are numerous denominations today) began during the Reformation of the 16th century, which resulted in a break from papal authority and Catholic Church doctrine.

4) Today, there are at least a dozen different versions of the Bible (King James, Douay-Rheims, New American Standard, God's Word, etc.) Unfortunately, over the centuries, the translations have not been copied down precisely word for word. While some passages have only a slight variation, other passages have had the entire meaning altered. For example, you can do a "search" on the Internet of your favorite biblical passage. What comes up are at least a dozen different versions, along with amazement that they don't all match. One has to ask the question: WHY was even one single "word of God" changed . . . and for what purpose?

-- RL

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous (1;56 AM) . . .

You made the statement: "the New Age Movement entering the church is a result of people not understanding Torah concepts of holiness and separation." Yet, you don't acknowledge that the New Age Movement has entered ALL religions.

Sometimes, it is more subtle. For example, the "once saved, always saved" belief can also mislead some Protestant Christians into feeling comfortable that they have "an automatic insurance policy into Heaven" no matter what. I've talked to many who actually believe that once a person is "saved" - that it doesn't matter whether that person (for example) lusts after a friend's husband/wife, gets married and divorced several times, becomes obsessed with vanity, consumerism, materialism, etc.

The New Age Movement doesn't "discriminate." It is an equal opportunity offender, a movement which has pushed the doors wide open into all religions - Jewish, Catholic, Protestant.


Anonymous said...


I'm happy to chat with you on email. Do you have an address where I can contact you?


Anonymous said...

I too would like to hear more of your views "J" if you have the time to spare.
Maybe I can contact Deannie if she gives an email address and doesn't mind, Or I'll create a new one to post here.

-- RL
I agree with you on most points there. Although I see the true Church as people of God rather than any separate denomination, If you truly love God and keep his ways you are neither Roman Catholic, protestant or messianic Jew etc in his eyes.
I am of no denomination But when you start talking about papal authority and Roman Catholic doctrine that is where I become a protester (Protestant)


Anonymous said...

Oops, Deannies sorry I said "she" But don't know if that is your gender.

Anonymous said...

Deannies, Really sorry I've just realised what your name is. people usually spell it differntly over here.


Anonymous said...

Deannie, I've now dug a hole I can't really get out of. Please forgive me.


Anonymous said...

If you would possibly talk with me via email I would appreciate it.

If you want, you can contact me and I'll pass on your email address.
Once again sorry for my earlier posts, It's my birthday so you have to forgive me :)


Anonymous said...

Adam (3:45 PM):

Re: "If you truly love God and keep his ways you are neither Roman Catholic, protestant or messianic Jew etc in his eyes."

I happen to agree with you, since at the very end, it is written that we will all become "one flock and one shepherd." --RL

Re: "I am of no denomination. But when you start talking about papal authority and Roman Catholic doctrine that is where I become a protester (Protestant)"

Adam, I was merely discussing church history and time lines -- period. And the Reformation period of the 16th century was all about "protest" of papal authority and Catholic doctrine. --RL

I have absolute respect for all 3 religions. That is what being a "Christian" is all about.

Thank you for your comments, and may God bless you.


HK-91 said...


I just read your 2:22 pm post. I must say it is a most astonishing application of revisionist history, in a theological sense, that I have seen in quite a while. None of your 4 points can be substantiated by a proper hermeneutic applied to the exegesis of the scriptures, Majority Text. "Googling" for bible verses can produce anything you want that verse to say. I try to keep in mind that Al Gore invented the internet, and we can see his consistency carried out through his Nobel prize wining film on global warming...


Anonymous said...

Feel free if you want to put your address down. I'm happy to get in touch with you.


Anonymous said...

To HK (11:09 PM):

The lineage of the popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is verified by multiple ancient writings of early Christian writers, such as Eusebius' "History of the Church."

You can deny these words of Jesus all you want; we'll probably ALL get to ask Jesus about it SOON.
Matthew 16:18 -- "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Matthew 16:19 -- "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

So, nearly 2,000 years and 265 popes later, the Catholic Church is still alive and well . . . even with "the gates of hell TRYING to prevail against it."

Also, are you denying that the Protestant Reformation occurred in the 16th century? Maybe you need to go back and study why Martin Luther and Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church and what the whole reformation movement was all about.

It sounds like you are the one who may be trying to "revise" history at least in your own mind. But, wishful thinking isn't going to make it so.


Anonymous said...

Sorry, I made a mistake. It was Adam who wanted the address. You can ignore that. Sorry about the confusion. It's early here.

Adam has my email, so feel free to get it from him.

Anonymous said...

Feel free if you want to put your address down. I'm happy to get in touch with you.
(11:54 PM)

To "J" . . .

Thank you for your suggestion, but I prefer not to give out my e-mail address. Nothing personal - it's just a "safety issue" as there are a lot of "looney-tunes" out there.(LOL)

ALso, any thoughts I have, that I would share on this blog, are the same thoughts I would share with you in private -- as I have absolutely nothing to hide.

May God bless you.


Anonymous said...

Just want to mention that the Bible uses the word "rock" over a hundred times. In all cases it is referring to God. It takes a lot of creativity to use that verse to invent a Catholic Church. If you read my earlier post, the Greek work translated "church" is ekklesia. In the Greek Septuagint, written a couple of hundred yeas before Yeshua the word was used to translate the Hebrew word qahal, or the assembly in the Wilderness. Even if Yeshua had used the word church to speak to His disciples, they wouldn't have understood. Remember they were going to synagogues and the Temple in Jerusalem and continued until its destruction in 70 A.D.

The idea of a Pope is an invention of the Catholic Church. The priesthood mentioned in the Bible are the Levitical priests. Israel was supposed to be a nation of priests, but sinned with the golden calf. Believers in Yeshua are made to be a kingdom of priests. (Rev 1:6)

I am sorry to say, as a former Catholic, one who is very familiar with the doctrines of the Catholic Church, that their doctrines are founded on the Babylonian Mystery religions.

Sorry to all of you who love Christmas and Easter, but you really need to look at the origins of these feasts and see that they are rooted in pagan practices. If we are going to criticize New Age practices in the Church, we need to start at home. This is the syncretism that Catholicism established. I could go on and on. Lent is not a Biblical idea, nor is Advent, nor is praying to saints, nor is Mary worship. Mary worship is rooted in the worship of the "mother of heaven" which we find some version of in all pagan civilizations. Easter is based on fertility god worship. The Christmas tree is condemned in Jeremiah 10. These things are condemned by God in Torah.

I don't mean to be offensive, but if this is a forum to speak truth, we must look carefully at our own practices and see if they measure up with Biblical truth. The Catholic Church does say that Jesus died for our sins, but they make graven images. All over Europe there are these huge statues of Mary with the little helpless baby Jesus, not the risen Messiah. The Jesus of the Catholic Church is pictured always on the cross.

If we get into the history of "infallible" popes, it's a historical fact that many were illegitimate sons of previous popes. All men fall short of the glory of God. There is no such thing in the Bible as the doctrine of infallibility. Peter, himself made lots of mistakes. I'm so glad that Yeshua's the perfect Lamb paid for my mistakes.

Celibacy is not a biblical practice. This is why we have little kids being molested in the Catholic Church so much.I know this is not the only place this happens, but it has happened with a high frequency. Paul said if your flesh burns you should marry.

The Catholic church for centuries sold indulgences so that people could "pay" for their sins. Excuse me, but the precious blood of the Unblemished Lamb, Yeshua, was not enough?

My entire family practiced Catholicism and one by one God has graciously taken each one out of the Catholic Church. In Europe, Bible believers were persecuted for worshipping on Sabbath, for owning Bibles. These are historical facts about the Catholic Church. As for the history in WWII, I won't get into that.

As for the idea of sainthood, in Messiah we are all saints because we receive Yeshua's righteousness. No Pope or anyone else has the right to declare someone righteous. Our righeousness is like filthy rags before a Holy God...

We are not to call men "father". Kissing the Popes ring and bowing down to him as if he was anymore than a mere human being is another form of idolatry. He is leading the world into ecumenic worship. The former pope gathered Hindus, Animists Buddhists, Muslims and Christians together to pray. He sat on a throne dressed in white with a red carpet. This pope just addressed the UN and supports the UN agenda, which is founded on doctrines like those of Helena Blavatsky and Alice Bailey. I could go on and on...

I agree the Protestants have not gone far enough. They should not just be "protesting" against the Catholics, we need to go back to the Scriptures and put away all of our denominational doctrines. There will be no denominations in the Kingdom. I understand that denominations originated out of doctrinal differences. All of this should be a clue for us that we are on the wrong track. We are building on a faulty foundation. The foundation is Yeshua. Yeshua was the Word who became flesh. He was the Lion from the Tribe of Judah. He did not establish a church Catholic or otherwise. He established His "called out assembly" those who are holy and set apart. He was there at the foundation of the world. The Patriarchs knew about Him, etc., etc. He didn't start something new in the Book of Acts. He perfected His covenant that was already made with Israel. He did it with His very own precious blood. It did not cancel the other promises to Israel. It renewed an perfected them, because He did for Israel, what we could not do for ourselves ( and all who chose to join themselves to Israel i.e. like Ruth)

I am not meaning to offend anyone. I have practiced all of these things in the past and asked God's forgiveness for what I did in ignorance. I did these things in my mind because I love Yeshua, but Nadab and Abihu offered strange incense and God struck them down and killed them.

We as believers, sometimes put a mask on God. It is not only Ancient Israel who did this by worshipping the gold calf, but in the 21st century we do this too. If we are to be preserved from the apostasy, we need to pay special attention to His Word. It is all well and good to talk about the New Agers, be we too have to be beyond reproach by looking into His perfect Word which is our mirror.

Anonymous said...

p.s. RL, yes I realized it wasn't you that wanted to write. I misread Adam's post. Happy to discuss whatever you like though..

Anonymous said...

Biblical doctrines that inure to the Catholic column:

1. Eating the roasted lamb with the bitter herbs together with passover wine = "you must eat my flesh and drink my blood" (Jesus, John Chapter 6)

2. Malachi: "From East to west -- from the rising to the setting of the sun the gentiles will offer incense to me.

3. The priesthood of Aaron -- he was clearly far from perfect, but the Jews were instructed to stay together under him and his sons -- remind anybody of the sometimes less than perfect papacies?

4. "They sit in Moses seat -- therefore whatever they bid you do, do . . ."

5. "Is not the bread we eat the body of Christ? Is not the cup we drink His body?" - Corinthians -- the Eucharist?

There are more, but that will encourage RL and get may some of the others thinking!

Anonymous said...

To:: "J" (1:17 AM)

It never ceases to amaze me how a person, who professes to believe in God (who is all about LOVE), can be so filled with venom and hatred in his/her heart for another religion.

You say, "it takes a lot of creativity to use that verse to invent a Catholic Church." Yes, well our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ IS very "creative." But if you have a problem with the words that Jesus spoke -- then you need to take that up with HIM - and not with me.

You say you are "a former Catholic, one who is very familiar with the doctrines of the Catholic Church"? Evidently not . . . or you would know that Catholics do not "worship" Mary (never have and never will). That is the sort of myth you usually hear from non-Catholics who are not "familiar" with the Catholic Church.

You would also know that the "infallibility" of the Pope has nothing to do with him as a human being, but rather with matters of church doctrine.

You would also know that the reason for the clergy sexual abuse scandal had to do with the decision to admit gay men into the priesthood in the 1960s and 1970s (due to a priest shortage). That was a huge mistake, for obvious reasons.

Oh, and please don't worry -- you have not "offended" me. I'm never offended by ignorance -- just saddened by it.


Anonymous said...

to Up too Late,

Eat my flesh and drink my blood is a hebrew idiom. It is not meant literally, or we would be engaged in cannibalism, heaven forbid! The eucharist or the doctrine of transubstantiation is a twisting of this hebrew idiom.

The form of "incense" mentioned here refers to an offering, like our prayers going up as incense mentioned in the verse in Rev. that talks about the incense and prayers of the saints. Absolutely the nations will worship Yeshua. Israel's role was always to be a light to the nations. When they failed in their role, God sent His Son, Yeshua to purchase people from every tribe, tongue and nation. I don't see the connection between that and the Roman Catholic Church.

The priesthood of Aaron was indeed imperfect, which is why Yeshua became our High Priest on the order of Mechizedek, who was both a King and a Priest. In order for Yeshua to cleanse the mercy seat in the heavenlies, He spilt His very own blood, not the blood of bull and goats. His priesthood allowed the veil in the Holy of Holies to be torn so that we would have direct access to the throne in Heaven. It doesn't require sacrifices to be made year after year as the book of Hebrews clearly says, because Yeshua's sacrifice was once and for all for the forgiveness of sins.

There will be the re-establishment of the Levitical priesthood in the Millennium, according to Ezekiel ( Chap 46 I believe) but that will not serve the same function. Yeshua bore our sin and our guilt, so our consciences are now cleansed by His blood and we have direct access to our heavenly Father, which is why we not longer need an intermediary (i.e. Popes, priests, etc. ) We have shepherds who teach and minister to the flock, but they are NOT our intermediaries between us and God.

Yeshua is now at the right hand of the Father interceding for us. What better High Priest could we ask for?

I am not against Catholics, but I am against the Catholic Church. I had many sincere Catholics in my family who love Yeshua, but are bound by the false doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Church has a lot of blood on its hands, not the least of which is the blood of Bible believers in the Protestant Reformation. In France the Hugeunots were killed for the mere sin of owning Bibles. The Catholic Church has always tried to keep its authority by leaving the masses in ignorance. Keeping the Bible from being translated in their native tongues, saying only the priests could interpret.

We are the Temple of the God, when we accept the blood of Yeshua for the payment of our sins. The Holy Spirit dwells in us and leads us in all Truth, therefore we can hear from God directly through His perfect Word, not the vain traditions of men. The Catholic Priests do not sit in the seat of Moses. That is a verse badly taken out of context. The reference is to the Sanhedrin that was selected by Moses in the Wilderness. The 70 wise elders. The Sanhedrin of Yeshua's day were in cahoots with the Roman government, and as such were corrupt leaders.

You can not compare the self-appointed leadership of the Catholic Church with the Sanhedrin.

We need to be much more careful with our interpretation of Scripture. We must learn to pay attention to the texts of Scripture and not distort them for our purposes.

There is NO Biblical basis for the establishment of the Catholic Church. Catholics who love Yeshua, must seek God's face and ask Him to lead them in all Truth. When the "comforter" ( Holy Spirit) comes He will lead you in truth...the Muslims say this is Mohamed, but we know that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Jewish believers and God-fearers during the Feast of Shavuot ( Pentecost).

Shalom and blessings to you in Yeshua,

Anonymous said...

“J” 4:20, most thoughtful and concise. The battle you have engaged may be fruitless to some, but helpful to those who may need a different perspective on what they already understand. Thank you. I’m looking for you “take” on “End Times” thinking.

HK-91 said...

A well presented post. I was going to attempt one, similar to it, however it was late and I kept mine short. The response was predictable.


We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I didn't see an ounce of "venom"
in J's post.


Anonymous said...

Thank you thank you.
As for the over worked verse
in Matthew 16, it was Jesus'
response to what Peter had just
said, which is the universal
confession that leads to eternal
life. "Thou art the Christ, the son
of the living God".
Furthermore if one reads the whole
chapter instead of ripping one
verse out of context, you'll notice
that a mere seven verses later
Jesus calls Peter Satan, in a sense,
just as he called him the Rock,
in a sense. Peter was a very
fallable man. Beloved but flawed
as we all are.
And what kind of lineage is the
Papacy? Not blood. The Pope is
chosen by committee. Wasn't it a
committee that chose the new
twelfth Apostle in the book of Acts
after Judas had "opted" out ?
Was this committee choice Gods'
choice? I'd say not. I'd say they were
overruled by God when he chose
Saul of Tarsus.So much for committees.


Anonymous said...

To "up too late" (3:16 AM) . . .

Thank you so much for your words of support.

And yes, you are right . . .

Jesus Christ instituted the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper, the night before He died (in fulfillment of His promise as related in the sixth chapter of the Gospel according to Saint John).

Jesus Christ instituted the Holy Eucharist when He took bread, blessed and broke it, and giving it to His apostles, said: "Take and eat; this is My body." Then He took a cup of wine, blessed it, and giving it to them, said: "All of you drink of this; for this is My blood of the new covenant which is being shed for many unto the forgiveness of sins." Then He turned to each of His apostles and said, "Do this in remembrance of Me."


Anonymous said...

During these last few months, I noticed that there are only two devout Catholics who regularly post on this blog: "Rose" . . . and now "RL" (me).

I have read some of the "verbal bullying" that Rose has had to endure. She handled these Catholic Church "bashers" with class and dignity, refusing to be intimidated by those who were obviously trying to wear her down and/or maybe even hoping to either "convert" her or run her off.

When someone posts lengthy "rants" against the Catholic Church, that person is convinced that he or she is speaking "volumes" against the Catholic Church . . . when the reality is that person is actually only revealing "volumes" about himself or herself.

This blog is not "about" the Catholic Church. It was set up to share information about the New Age Movement and the coming Anti-Christ on the world scene. (I can only imagine how disappointed some of you must be that Constance's research is pointing to someone other than the Pope.)

When you continue these "rants" against another Christian Church, you are actually "participating" and/or unknowingly contributing to this Anti-Christ movement. Congratulations . . . Satan has got to be loving every minute of this.

Wouldn't our last "days" on Earth (and only God knows how much longer we all have left) be better spent on our knees in PRAYER rather than in "attack mode?"


brightrose said...


Thanks for your kind words--I am very behind in responding to so many of the comments over the last few days I don't even know where to start...

I do get the feeling that people are starting to recognize that this board is not a sectarian board -- it is about the New Age movement as seen from a Judeo Christian perspective. With that said, there are still some folks here who would like the Catholics to leave-- they have the Fulfilled Prophecy forum if they want to talk about the end times/give out about Catholics with likeminded people.

Your reminders about prayer are vital. Kathleen Keating (whose work you may know) has a monumental grasp of this subject at a geopolitical level--unfortunately she has been very silent over the last few months and I miss her insights more than I can say (she is most likely under attack from various directions)--but she constantly brings it back to the point of the importance of prayer, prayer, and prayer -- "getting back to God."

I haven't begun to even take in all of J's fascinating posts -- there is so much information there to digest -- but I want to add, with no disrespect meant to J, God's truths are simple ones. I don't believe we need to be scholars or PhD's to understand what he wants for, and demands of, his people.

Christ himself said that nothing was hidden and that we must become like little children. St. Paul tells us that knowledge, in the end, is nothing without love. As you know, St. Thomas Aquinas, intellectual giant that he was, gave up scholarship entirely in his last years believing that it was all as of nothing when measured against the experience of God's love.


Anonymous said...

Dear RL,
Yeshua didn't institute the "eucharist". He celebrated a pre-Passover meal with His disciples. He was about to become the Passover Lamb, so He would not be able to attend the official supper since He was about to be slaughtered at the same time the lambs were being sacrificed at the Temple.

Remember He said, He would not drink from the vine again until we say "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord".

Every time we eat the Unleavened Bread, we remember Yeshua the Messiah. We have been eating it all week long. Tonight is the last night of Pessah which happens to be a Shabbat as well this year. Tonight we are reminded in a double sense to rest in the finished work of Yeshua. From the foundation of the world, our Abba Father knew He would need to redeem us Himself.

Passover is to remember our liberation from the slavery of Egypt (sin) when the blood of the Lamb is put on the doorposts of our heart. If you put it on both sides and on top, it makes a chai, which in Hebrew means life. Yeshua came to bring us life and to bring it to us abundantly. If you look at a matzah, it has 39 "stripes" and it is pierced...sound familiar?

After the killing of the lamb (14th of Nissan) the 15th is the feast of Unleavened bread. This is a little complicated, but there are weekly Shabbats and then the Shabbat of Unleavened Bread. Another words when we read the account of Yeshua's death, we cannot assume the Shabbat is Saturday. That is too complicated for the scope of this comment.

As the children of Israel were liberated from Egypt, they were in too much of a hurry to let the bread rise. They had to leave Egypt quickly. God had just delivered them. Yeshua is the bread with out leaven. He is sinless.

After three days and three nights ( the sign of Jonah) Yeshua was the First fruit of the Resurrection. Ha Bikkurim. ( this occurs during the Passover feast) If we count 50 days from Ha Bikkurim we arrive at Shavuot, another harvest feast. After the death and resurrection of Yeshua, He appeared to His disciples and then He told them to wait until the Spirit would be given to them( We count the omer) . Shavuot ( the giving of Torah where the 3000 were killed for the worship of the golden calf) and 3000 given the Holy Spirit. See Leviticus 23 to read in detail, the appointed times that Abba gave us!

I am going through a brief but important explanation. The Catholic Church obscured these truths. They changed the times i.e. the calendar of God. He calls these important occasions His 'moedim" i.e. His appointed times where HE wants to meet with us. The Catholic church from the time of Constantine set out to hide these truths from the common people and instead instituted feasts like Christmas (Saturnelia) Easter ( Ishtar).

I am NOT criticizing you who are Catholic. On the contrary, I just want to open your eyes to the truth. You have trusted the Church authority instead of the Word of God. When He says an appointment is olam, that means forever and ever...not to be cancelled.

You have your eyes open to the New Age Movement. May Abba open your eyes to the riches of His Word, and His eternal truths. He has not changed. Welcome into the covenant with Israel. Do not accept the replacement theology of the Catholic Church.

God's appointments are His calendar which as a good friends says" is a cycle of sanctification". God has built in reminders for us every week, month, season and year. As we walk through His annual calendar in our new identity in Yeshua, we grow in the knowledge of Him and in the image of Him. All of these feasts have hidden treasures for all of us.

God blesses us when we obey His Word. I encourage you to learn about these things. Yeshua will come back at the sound of the "last trumpet" Yom T'ruah ( Rosh HaShanah) when the dead in Messiah will rise and all who are already dead will meet Him in the air. Yom Kippur will be a day of national mourning, and Succot, the Feast of Tabernacles is the wedding feast of the Lamb. All of the nations will go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Succot, which represents the ultimate goal of God dwelling among us. i.e. the restoration of the Garden of Eden, ultimately..

Yeshua was most likely born ( the Bible doesn't say, but we can calculate) during the Feast of Tabernacles ( Succot) which represents when God took Ancient Israel out of the desert and He dwell with them. He told them to build booths to remember this. The booths represent temporary dwelling, as do our earthly bodies. One day, in the twinkling of an eye, He will change us and we will receive the resurrection body.

I just want you to see the accuracy of the Word of God. Don't accept the cheap substitute of man made traditions, but go to His Word and see what He says. He is preparing a Bride. A Bride wears wedding garments.

When Moses was at Mt. Sinai, God gave Him the Torah. It was the marriage contract ( Ketubah). Read it and see what God says, remembering always that He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is holy....He does not change. He didn't like idolatry back then any more than He likes it now.

Don't forget, there was a mixed multitude who came out of Egypt, so the nations were always welcome to join into the covenants with Israel. The key was to believe in the God of Israel and to love His people. i.e. Ruth "Your God will be my God, and your people will be my people".

Think.. if people can be deceived today, don't you think it's possible that we too, could have bought lies for a couple of thousand years?

That's all for now.
Shabbat shalom ( millennial peace)
and Hag Sameach ( happy Passover!!! You have been freed from Pharoah the prince of this world). You who were strangers to the covenants have now been brought near by the blood of Yeshua the Messiah. (Ephesians 2)


Anonymous said...

I have no PhD and am not a theologian. I just love God's Word...and the Living Word Yeshua.

His truths are simple, yes, but His riches can't be measured or counted. We can accept the simple truth that we are free in Messiah, but that's just the beginning of the journey. He wants to do so much more. Don't forget, we are going to dwell with Him forever!!

brightrose said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Hi, Rose . . .

I was thinking about you early this morning. I was saying to myself, "Where's Rose? I need her support right now." :)

I agree that God wants us all to "become like little children" . . . because a child is humble and places his faith and trust in Our Heavenly Father.

Yes, they would love for us Catholics to "just go away" . . . but I must respond when people post "myths" about what they think that we Catholics actually believe.


Anonymous said...

To "J" . . .

I wish there were some "ground rules" for this blog. Each person should be absolutely free to share his or her faith . . . but should also show RESPECT for the other person's religious convictions.

I am not trying to convert you . . . and you shouldn't be trying to convert me.

When we die and pass over to the other side . . . we can both ask Jesus to settle "arguments" about the "variations" of certain biblical passages.

May God bless you.


HK-91 said...


You posted:

"I wish there were some "ground rules" for this blog." (8:19 pm)

How about this for ground rules:

Scripture, logic and common sense...

When one enters a free market place of ideas, then proceeds to put forth their ideas and engage others in theirs, one should expect to encounter the full range of human nature.

The "art of communication" or lack thereof is just another sign of the times.

I have often found that dissertations concerning "truth" are like a path that has a sign at it's start: "Enter at your own risk"...

We can all learn something from each other, hopefully we learn about ourselves.


Anonymous said...

To HK:

Regarding your statement, "When one enters a free market place of ideas, then proceeds to put forth their ideas and engage others in theirs, one should expect to encounter the full range of human nature."

Yes, and that statement applies to YOU as well.


Anonymous said...

Sorry, but this idea that if we share our ideas we are trying to convert someone is just false. First of all, I know that I cannot convert anyone, only God can do that. Secondly, the whole idea of "respecting" and "tolerating" someone's religion is one of the things that will lead to the One World Religion. Muslims don't want anyone to criticize their religion either, even if it means exercising the sharia law.

It is this kind of thinking that will lead to them implementing sharia law in Europe and ultimately US, if we don't stop being so tolerant. Should we be tolerant of priests molesting children? I still believe that we have the right and responsibility to speak up. As soon as we stop doing that we are all in trouble. You are perfectly welcome to challenge anything I said. I don't find that offensive.

If no one had ever challenged my beliefs, I don't know if I would be where I am today. Remember, I make a distinction between the person and their faith. One of the big mistakes we make today is we mix everything. i.e. we can't criticize homosexuality because that would be a "hate crime". That is utter nonsense. I have nothing against people who practice homosexuality, but the Bible calls THE ACT an abomination. We are called to love them, but love doesn't mean letting them rot in hell. The Bible says we are to speak truth in love.

As soon as we lose this freedom to freely express our beliefs and ideas we are in big trouble. Right now the Muslim countries are using the offenses about the Mohamed cartoons and the Fitna film to try to do that. I don't think it's necessary wise for people to insult Islam that way, but this is now becoming the excuse to restrict any and all criticism of their beliefs.

If my thoughts on Catholicism are strong, it's because I've been there and done that. Would love to see you set free of the Papal authority on your life and see you "yoked" only to Yeshua, but I am not stupid enough to think that I can "convert" you.

I had only hoped to point out some of the inconsistencies in the RCC that I had discovered. Don't mean to single them out. They're not the only ones, but just one of the biggest and most influential. If we are talking about the New Age Movement, I am one that personally believes the Pope is helping lead us into One World Religion. I believe I already mentioned the interfaith prayer at Assisi with animists, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus etc. That was under John Paul. The Catholic church historically is know for its syncretism. Where ever they go they absorb the local religion. This is how we ended up with many of the pagan feasts in the first place.

The history of Mardi Gras, the debauchery before the fast of Lent, comes out of ancient Druidism and has to do with human sacrifice., etc.

The Pope before him wanted Mary to have status as a "co-redeemer" with Yeshua. Miriam was a woman chosen by God for a special role, but she was a human being and she did not" hang on the tree" for our sins.

I am not insulting you. I am just pointing out things about a system, which you are free to respond to. I don't doubt that you love Jesus and want to follow him, but when we go to Catholic Church we are bound by the rituals i.e. Every Sunday they say "I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for the forgiveness of sin". It's NOT the Catholic Church that forgives sin, it's God through the death of Yeshua and His shed blood.

I was at a Catholic funeral where they said, " so and so is forgiven because she took the sacraments." Nonsense. No one is forgiven because of taking sacraments. They are forgiven because of their belief in the atoning work of Yeshua. Again the whole sacramental system of the Catholic Church is an attempt to replace the Levitical priesthood. Catholic priests don't replace anyone. That is replacement theology. Catholics DO NOT replace Israel, but believers in Yeshua are welcome into the covenant through the blood of the Lamb.

It is this very replacement theology that caused centuries of anti-Semitism. i.e. when people say "The Jews are Christ-killers and we are the New Israel". Nonsense to that too. God's promises are eternal. He doesn't change His mind, even if we fail, which we all do. The Catholics converted many of my people by force ( the Inquisition). How many hidden Jews are there because they were afraid to be persecuted under Catholicism and then Islam?

I'm sorry, the Catholic Church ( the institution, not individuals like you or others on this forum) has done lots and lots of damage and continues to by its false doctrines and saying that it is "the true church". For centuries their power was tied to the monarchies of Europe. Yeshua never set up the Vatican. He said His Kingdom is not of this world. He didn't have a big throne, like the Pope, nor gold and riches and real estate. He didn't even have a place to put His head. He didn't ask people to pay money to have their sins forgiven. Freely He gave His blood as an offering so that many would be justified.

Think a little bit about what I am saying and if you disagree, please feel free to respond, but I am not insulting you, only the Roman Catholic Church who has lead many astray.

Anonymous said...

p.s. read Bjorn Farmer's post this week with regards to guidlines to this subject of not insulting people's religions. "J"

Here's an excerpt:

Freedom of expression?
"We, however, were saying that there could be no absolute freedom. Abuse of freedoms must be subject to legal sanctions at some point," he said, adding that there has been a different stance in many European countries due to subsequent talks with EU officials and efforts at UN platforms."But this is not enough," İhsanoğlu said, emphasizing that what was important was to make sure the insults against Islam will not continue. He called for joint efforts by the EU and the OIC at the UN to set global guidelines on the issue to make sure freedoms will not be used to insult the religious values of other people." LINK

brightrose said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Leana 11:02, 2nd post on this thread

I was thinking of the 10 toes in Daniel 2 they are of iron and clay that don't mix.
Maybe the economic goals and the "spiritual" new age won't mix.

Just a thought

I am still finding how much Freemasonry is playing a big part as far as the common thread in world powers and the New World Order (The Tribulation)

brightrose said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Sometimes it is necessary to let them wear themselves out. A lot of the longwinded posters know squat about the New Age movement, so they on and on with what they consider important and what fills their lives.

Being Jewish and knowledgeable about Catholicism I find what J writes interesting, but the world is full of interesting things.

My sister successfully put me down a while back. She said I was excited by many things in succession and I wanted others to be excited by them also. The reality she said is that she had her own things to get excited about.

If I told her that I was continuously learning because I knew that I didn't have all of the answers at any given time and that she came across as being intellectually stuck in time, it would have been unkind. So these days I generally let her talk and I just listen. It works.


Anonymous said...

The God that I know and loved told Ancient Israel to destroy the baals and the asheroths, so He is not a tolerant God and doesn't share His glory with another.

I am trying to point out that there is this false idea of love where we can not hold discussions about our views, or we are accused of being intolerant. If you buy into that you will buy into the New Age agenda. That's what they say. Love is a word that is much stronger to me than that. The loving thing to do if we see someone in a lie, be it Islam, Catholicism, etc. is to point out what Scripture says. That's all I am doing. I have nothing against, you or Rose, or Dorothy ( who I think is Jewish). I must stress that what I am criticizing is a system that developed 325 years after the death and resurrection of Yeshua. It came from Rome, not Jerusalem and it had nothing to do with the faith of Yeshua and His disciples.

I am not insulting any of you, I am speaking about what the Bible says, which to me is the inerrant Word of the Living God. If you have a problem with what I am saying, go to the Word of God, don't get mad at me.

Rose, as for Mary of the seas or whatever she is Mary of. I don't see any Biblical basis for this at all. You do not have to be a scholar. Just open up your Bible and see what it says about Mary (Miriam). She was a special person chosen by God for a special role, to bear His Son. She is no longer a virgin because the Bible clearly states that Yeshua had brothers and sisters after He was born. I am not putting down God's choice of Miriam as the one who would give birth to Yeshua. There just isn't one verse in the Bible that tells us to pray to her.
We are to pray to God alone. We are not to pray to saints, or statues or use rosary beads or genuflect before crucifixes. All of this is pure idolatry.

By the way, my grandmother only knew this kind of upbringing, but she loved Jesus and I am sure that at the end of her life she was saved because of her faith in Him. At the end of her life, I remarked that her faith became much more childlike. She didn't hang on to all the rosaries and statues. It was just Jesus, her Savior that mattered. I loved my grandmother very much. All that to say, I don't have anything against Catholics. On the contrary, I feel bad for them that they don't understand the access they have to the throne of God through the blood of Yeshua.

I also believe that many Jews today, don't recognize their Mashiach because we have made Him into something He is not. When the children of Israel worshipped the golden calf, they called it LORD. That doesn't mean that it accurately represented the Lord. They had come out of Egypt with a lot of ideas which were a result of their slavery. They did not really understand yet, who God was.

We do this too, with all of our religions. We put a face on God ( a mask) that is not Him. God did not give us religion. He gave us relationship. He gave us His Son. He gave us life. Religion is all of man's efforts to do something for God, when He already did it all for us. "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed." We don't have to come under the bondage of a religious system. We just need to walk with Him and know Him as He revealed Himself to us in His Word.

By the way, what I am saying has everything to do with the New Age Movement. If we know God's Word and really know Him and make disciples, we can prevent people from falling into the deception of the New Age Movement. People are falling into a lot of this because they are tired of religion and they are seeking spiritual experiences. They are empty. The only thing that can really fill us to full measure is the living Torah, Yeshua. When we know Him we are no longer hungry or thirsty. We don't see thrills elsewhere. He is sufficient.

I wish the three of you with all my heart blessings and shalom that come from the Prince of Peace, Yeshua.

Anonymous said...

I have one more suggestion for you. Instead of thinking what I am saying is so hard to understand, open your Bible and begin reading it from cover to cover and do this over and over again. When you do this pray and ask God to reveal to you what He is saying in His Word, because He didn't design to be mysterious. He reveals Himself to ALL those who sincerely seek Him and He is not respecter of men.

After you read your Bible, and try to match what it says with what you have been taught in Catholicism if you still think that the RCC is on the right track, Praise God, but if it raises some questions in your mind about some of the inconsistencies between their practices and what the Word says then you have to decide whether you believe the Bible or the Catholic Church.

As a Catholic we were never encouraged to read the Bible, in fact when I was younger the Mass was still performed in Latin, which seemed kind of bizarre to me since most people who went didn't speak Latin. Nowadays, I understand there are more Catholics beginning to read the Scriptures. Praise God for this! If they read with their minds open they will have to have some questions about the system they belong to.

Taking one verse of Scripture and misusing it as a basis to say that Peter was the Pope really shakey. The Bible says by two or three witness My Word is established. There was a lot of political motivation for Constantine to start the Catholic Church. Read the history. He was a sun-god worshipper and it is doubtful that he was ever truly converted to anything but it was politically expedient to make a State religion.

Don't forget at the time true believers were being persecuted for their faith but the faith kept spreading anyway, so Constantine had a big problem on his hands. He hated the Jews, and this is obvious from reading his own words. You can find them if you look. He changed Shabbat, Pessah, etc. This is why Catholics celebrate Easter and not Passover...God never said to do this in His Word.

I just want to make you think. I'm sorry if this rattles you, but I am not against you. On the contrary, I just want you to discover the riches of the Bible and it's eternal truths and the Messiah, Yeshua and to see you set free from the Roman system. Sure, for some time it might have been the only "visible" remnant of Christianity, but there were always true believers in spite of the Catholic Church. God being who He is was always able to touch people regardless of the circumstances.

The European Catholic churches are a bunch of museums. Europe is "post Christian" or "neo-Pagan" because the Catholic Church could not keep its influence with years of corruption. It's hard for people to even hear the gopsel there because of the history of the Popes, etc. of course the Freemasons have a hand in this too with the French Revolution and the Enlightenment.

Don't believe me, read and study the history, read the Bible and then come back and we'll talk. You don't have to be a scholar, you just have to have a love for truth. If you know the truth, it will set you free. "J"

Anonymous said...

Rose, another thought. You don't see anyone here joining a messianic group. You don't see Constance joining a messianic group based on the postings of J. When these people go after Jews to get them to convert, they use the same tactics as you see J using here against Catholicism. They distort Judaism in the same way.

Whoever J is, it's pretty obvious that the person is trained. So much information is thrown out n such long rant, only a scholar would be able to refute the comments point by point.

Any belief system that leads to such ill-mannered behavior is not one to take seriously.


Anonymous said...

To "Anonymous" (12:42 AM) . . .
"J" - is that you in disguise? Your writing is very similar -- or maybe "J" has a "twin"? :)

1) Re your statement: "this idea that if we share our ideas we are trying to convert someone is just false."

But, then later on - you turn around and tell me, "Would love to see you set free of the Papal authority."

2) Re your question: "Should we be tolerant of priests molesting children?."

Absolutely NOT -- and we Catholics are more outraged than you. Even though 97% of Catholic priests are good, holy men of God . . . even 3% is unacceptable. Pope Benedict VI is taking action to weed out all of these "rotten apples" with the goal that it is better to have a fewer number of GOOD priests.

3) Re your statement: "the bible says we are to speak truth in love."

Well, are you arrogantly assuming that we are not doing the same? People can argue Matthew 16:18 (KJV) until they are blue in the face. But, have you ever considered the POSSIBILITY that when you meet Jesus some day, that He just MIGHT tell you that He did, in fact, create the Catholic Church and make Peter His first Pope just before He was crucified? Only TIME will tell though, won't it?

Also you have NEVER seen me post the statement that the Catholic Church is "the one true Church." (Those words came from YOU on your post.)

4) Re your statement: "I had only hoped to point out some of the inconsistencies in the RCC."

Hey, point away. I only ask that you please do your homework and get it RIGHT. So many insist on posting erroneous information and myths about the Catholic Church. This is unfair to people like me and Rose (who have to constantly "clean up your mess").

We Catholics are not perfect -- and neither are the rest of you. We are all "flawed" human beings striving to be "better" human beings. We all fall short of "perfection" -- which is reserved for Almighty God. That's why He's God and we're NOT.

5) Re your statement: "the history of Mardi Gras: the debauchery before the fast of Lent."

Mardi Gras (the French word for "Fat Tuesday") is celebrated the day before Ash Wednesday, which begins the 40 day fasting period that leads up to Good Friday and finally Our Lord's glorious Resurrection on Easter Sunday morning.

As with anything in life, some cities (like Rio & New Orleans) carry it to the extreme! The Catholic Church certainly does not ever condone or encourage this debauchery. (Some Catholic Church parishes simply host small carnivals and have wholesome activities intended for the entire family.)

6) Re your concern about: Mary being a "co-redeemer." That's NEVER going to happen; so relax!!!

7) Re your statement: "Every Sunday they say 'I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church FOR the forgiveness of sin."

No - the correct phrasing of the prayer is: "the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen." (There is a BIG difference in the way you presented it vs. the way we pray it every Sunday.)

8) Re: attending that Catholic funeral and disagreeing with the person who said that the deceased "is forgiven because she took the sacraments."

We believe that a Catholic who receives the sacraments of confession, communion and the last rites before dying has a very good chance of being accepted into Heaven. But since God is our only judge and jury, only God has that answer (not that deceased person's friend) -- since only God knows what is in a person's heart and soul at the moment of death. There is no "automatic insurance policy" for ANY of us. This also applies to those who insist, "once saved, always saved." In other words, ALL of us have to work at remaining in God's grace every single day of our lives (as we are all "flawed" human beings).

9) Re your statement: "It is this replacement theology that caused centuries of anti-Semitism i.e. when people say, 'Jews are Christ-killers' . . ."

First of all, if this is a thinly-disguised attempt to try to play me against Dorothy, it is not going to work. However, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

As a life-long Catholic, I have always been taught that "we" (the collective we - meaning all of mankind) "killed" Christ . . . that every time we SIN, we symbolically add another "nail" to His cross and "hurt" Him all over again. In 12 years of Catholic schooling, I have NEVER once been taught that "the Jews killed Christ."

10) Re your statement: "but I am not insulting you . . ."

As I told "J" -- I am not "offended" or "insulted" . . . only deeply saddened by all of the erroneous information that is being falsely spread about the Catholic Church. (Just a "Thou shalt not bear false witness" reminder.)

And finally - New Age "theology" attempts to convince TRADITIONAL Jews, Catholics and Protestants that they need to "abandon their old, outdated ways of thinking and beliefs." So, please don't fall into this "trap" of unknowingly going along with them by trying to convince Catholics that we need to "abandon our old, outdated ways of thinking and beliefs." (I get chills just thinking about the parallels.)

Thank you for your comments and may God bless you.


Anonymous said...

Dorothy and RL,

My heartfelt thanks for your putting this all in the proper perspective.

You are gimlet-eyed wonders :)

You have made my day!


Anonymous said...


I'm not going to address your points, point by point. Everything that I said I stand by as it concerns the Catholic Church and the many years I was exposed to their teachings.

I will respond to one thing, which is I would never try to turn Dorothy against you. That would be the last idea that would enter my mind. I don't know you or Dorothy. Further more my gripe isn't with you, it's with the teachings, doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church.

The thief on the cross didn't have Extremunction or the Euchrist, or Confirmationk, etc, etc. He acknowledged that Yeshua was the Holy One and didn't deserve to be on the cross, but he did. Yeshua said that "this day you will be with me in Paridise". Our salvation has been purchased with the precious blood of the Lamb. None of the Catholic Churches "sacraments"( one which includes crucifying Christ over and over at every Mass, since that is supposed to be His literal body in the little wafer) will save you. Believing faith in the finished work of Yeshua for your sins will.

If you believe in His death and resurrection as the payment of your sins, you would naturally want to obey His commandments, none of which are the sacraments.

By the way, if you study the history of Mardi Gras, it is based on practices that are 100% pagan. I'm not referring to what is done today, i'm talking about its origins..

Again, my gripe is with the RCC, not with you. You are simply following your upbringing. I do understand that.

I think we have exhausted this conversation though, so May God bless you and keep you and shine His face on you....

Anonymous said...

To "J" (8:46 AM) . . .

Please do NOT "talk down" to Rose. She behaves like more of a "true Christian" than some of you!!! ("Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God.")

You must have a very "selective" memory of being a Catholic. I was taught "scripture" in the Catholic schools in Religion Class (5 days a week for 12 years) . . . and we also had scripture "readings" at every Mass (and those were NOT in Latin).

Hey, if you want to "cherry pick" which biblical passages you will accept, that's your business; but for many years, the King James Version of the Bible was the ONLY Bible that Protestants read and referred to. Yes, it's true that now, a person can find "altered" versions of Matthew 16:18 (in the newer versions of the Bible) if a person is looking for an "altered" version.

As for "Constantine starting the Catholic Church" . . . my God in Heaven, "J" - what on earth are you SMOKING???


Anonymous said...

I was referring to when television programs show Chrisians/ evangalicals at the big churches with people and hands raised, singing,etc. Especially on the History channel documentaries. It is often portrayed in a way to margainalize their sincerity and demean their experiences.


If you are still reading this thread, my sincere apologies for the delay in responding to your thoughtful post which I appreciated very much.

You raised an important point about how Evangelicals are often portrayed in the media I've been trying to get my head around it the last few days--I have not reached any profound insights, but I would like to say the following:

1. The religious prejudice that has erupted at this blog (again!) in the last few days is not about Protestants vs. Catholics and Jews. There are Catholics who are JUST as self-righteous and condescendening toward Protestants and Jews, the key difference being, they aren't posting at this blog--at least at the present time (and let's hope it stays that way).

2. As regards your point above--I've noticed what you described, but I always felt this was not "anti-Evangelical" prejudice so much as merely a symptom of the general hostility to Western religion that permeates the mainstream media. I can appreciate though how you would feel your faith is demeaned by these portrayals--because it is being demeaned.

The MSM does have a very secular left-wing agenda that is, at the core, hostile to Judeo-Christian beliefs--it really is a New Age agenda. I'm sure you've noticed how seriously atheist commentators like Karen Armstrong, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens are taken -- but where are their Jewish or Christian counterparts? Can you even name a prominent Christian or Jewish (as in religious Jew) intellectual who could be considered a counterpart--i.e. treated with respect by the media--of any of these people? I can't. (Peggy Noonan comes to mind--but she is primarily a political commentator--and she is dismissed by most of the secular media as a shill for Reagan).

I think Evangelicals are the targeted because they are:

1. Emotionally expressive
2. Such a strong political force (I realise the Religious Right also includes a lot of Catholics and some Jews, but demographically speaking it is overwhelmingly a white Protestant "movement") and therefore a threat.
3. Perceived as being vibrant and growing (and therefore a threat, as opposed to Catholicism which in the U.S., is perceived by the media as a dying force)
4. Unfortuantely I don't think the "face" of the Evangelical movement--Pat Robertson and Ted Haggard come to mind--has done Protestants any favors. (I see this as a "crisis in leadership" and I think this growing crisis has left a very dangerous vacuum that folks like Rick Warren are clamoring to fill.)

I was watching a documentary a few weeks ago on the BBC--I cannot even remember the topic of the documentary (obviously it was not very memorable!) but I could the presenter although ostensibly "objective" had the usual left wing secular (anti-Judeo Christian) axe to grind. At one point he made a reference to Christian fundamentalism in the U.S. (sorry I cannot remember the exact context in which the reference was made) and guess what footage they showed? Yes, it of the siege at Waco, Texas! There was no irony intended -- he presented it (obviously with the backing of BBC editors) as a valid example of Christian fundamentalism in America! I don't think anything more needs to be added to that. I was momentarily taken aback but I didn't give it any thought until I read your post a couple of weeks later. In retrospect, I should have done soemthing--called the BBC or at least written a letter.

In short, thank you for raising my awareness, and for taking the time to allow me to see things a little more from another's point of view.

Sorry for the lengthy post,


Anonymous said...


Earlier, when you referred to Dorothy and me as "gimlet-eyed wonders" - I had to go and look up the word "gimlet-eyed."

A "gimlet" is a sharp tool used for poking holes.

A "gimlet-eyed" person is one who possesses a merciless, penetrating stare that drills right to the core of the matter.

Many years ago, one of my best friends told me that I had a way of just cutting straight through the bull s - - -.

So, anyway -- just a belated thank you for the compliment. :)


Anonymous said...

Dear RL, Rose and Dorothy,
I am very sorry if any of you thought I was attacking you personally. I tried to explain several different times that was not the case. I was simply explaining the things that Abba has revealed through the study of His Word. My hearts to desire is to see Jews and Gentiles ( including the scattered tribes of the house of Israel) reconciled into one body. I have actually prayed and searched God's Word and history books to understand how we arrived where we are today.

Rose, I am very sorry that you don't have the assurance of salvation in Yeshua. I don't think the Catholic Church has done you a service with its teaching on Purgatory. That's simply not in the Bible. I wish you could not with assurance that you can be with Yeshua forever, if you believe in His atoning work for your sins. I don't mean that we disregard His commandments just because we are "saved". Our righteousness is in Yeshua, but after He saves us of course the fruit of that is obedience.

Dorothy, as a Jew I am sorry for you that you are not yet able to see your Messiah. I know that God Himself has permitted this. I'm encouraged that you are on a forum with lots of believers in Jesus/Yeshua so that is probably not an accident. I had only hoped you could understand the historical confusion that led to a "Jesus" who eats pork, breaks Sabbath, who abolished the moed and replaced the Jews with Christians. This replacement theology is a great source of anti-Semitism. I believe God's covenants with Israel are OLAM --FOREVER. He doesn't change His mind or we'd all be in trouble. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He made a way for my people ( Israel) who were constantly disobedient and that way is through Mashiach, who obeyed the Torah perfectly, and the died so that His blood would cleanse our sin once and for all. Remember there is no Temple, and no means of atonement anymore.

The story that you sent earlier about the thread not turning white for 40 years after the death of Yeshua meant that the Yom Kippur sacrifice was not acceptable after the death of Yeshua. God was speaking to the Jews in Jerusalem through this event showing them that Yeshua was was the offering for Yom Kippur. Some understood and some didn't, and it's still like that today. I don't believe the Jews were "Christ killers". I believe this was God's plan to redeem us since Gan Eden. He knew that He would provide the sacrifice. The story of Abraham and Isaac foreshadows this, the story of Joseph being sold for 20 pieces of silver by his brothers foreshadows this, Moses as a mediator foreshadows this. Joshua ( Yehoshua) bringing us into the Promised Land. All of it, every last word is about Yeshua.

Remember Moses mounted and ascended Mt Sinai. Remember the angels ascending and descending in the story of Jacob. God was always showing our people that HE would make the way to connect us to Him. First He had to show us how holy He is. He set up the Tabernacle and the levitical priesthood. We cannot come to Him any old way. We needed a mediator. That mediator was Yeshua. Once Yeshua spilled His blood, we had access to the Kodesh Kodeshim. The Tabernacle and Temple were simply a reflection of the throne room in Heaven and God was showing us how to enter into His presence. Yeshua became korban "our way of drawing near" . We receive His Tekhelet ( righteousness) when we enter into relationship with Him. Yeshua came first and foremost for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Dorothy, I have a special heart for my people. We have been persecuted throughout the centuries because Satan knows that our restoration represents his ultimate demise, the return of Yeshua with His feet on the Mt of Olives and the establishment of His Kingdom. Thankfully, Abba is sovereign and one day very soon we will be standing in Jerusalem saying "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of Adonai".

There are probably millions of Catholics who were of Jewish origin but because of the Inquisition, the Shoah etc. many are hidden today. What Abba restores all things, we will be blown away to see that there are many more than 15 million Israelites in the world. He said, He would make us more numerous than the sands of the sea. May that day come quickly!!

RL, what can I say? You feel like Rose's defender ( who I'm not attacking at all by the way) and you felt the need to insult me by saying "I'm smoking something" . I don't smoke anything and take the Word of God, very seriously. You should be able to discern that from my comments. Having said all of that, I will pray that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will open the eyes of your understanding.

If you ask Him to He will.

Blessings to all of you in Messiah Yeshua!!

Anonymous said...

J I'm not here to discuss my religious history and beliefs. Please understand you will not get a response from me on this topic.


Anonymous said...

one little p.s.

tekhelet is the color blue that is used in the tzizit (fringes) of the garment. It was used widely in the Mishkan ( tabernacle). It represents God's righteousness and royalty. In Messiah Yeshua, we receive His righteousness. It's imputed to us, we don't deserve it.

The scattered tribes from Assyria exile we the 10 tribes of Northern Kingdom. We don't know who or where they are today. God punished them for disobedience but promised to bring them back. Read Hosea, if you want to understand more. That has not happened yet. I suspect many could be in our churches today. That is separate from the "Jews' who are only Judah, Benjamin & Levi and perhaps some of the other tribes who joined them. The Jews were who returned from Babylonian exile. God preserved them to fulfill His promise and bring Yeshua, and He also preserved Torah through them. They are the VISIBLE remnant of Israel, but by no means ALL Israel. In the Bible the expression House of Israel, Ephraim, Jospeh, Northern Kingdom are all used depending on the context, to describe the Northern Kingdom. All Israel is both houses Judah( Judah represents Judah, Benjamin and Levi) and Ephraim ( Ephraim represents the 10 tribes)

The Orthodox Jews recognize that the tribes are still missing and some even pray for them to return.

This is the mystery that Paul speaks of in Romans 11. You have to read Paul carefully and watch who he is quoting from. In Romans 9, he quote Hosea, so does Peter in 1 Pe 2:10. They understood the tribes were "lost" and mixed in the nations. Northern Kingdom became "not a people" according to Hosea. He also says, once more they will become the "sons of the living God".

This is not to be confused with the Jews who are mixed in the nations too. Only 40,000+ Jews came back from Babylon. Remember when Israel and the mixed multitude left Egypt there were between 2-3 million 3500 years ago. Mathematically speaking there are many more descendants that 15 million we know about today.

The Jews were touched by pograms, inquisition, Shoah, etc, etc,.

God promises not ONE GRAIN of Israel will fall to the ground. We underestimate God's ability to fulfill His promises.

Israel was supposed to be a light to the nations. One day 10 men will grab a Jews tzizt representing the righteousnes commandments of God. Zechariah 8:23.

God split the birthright between Judah and Ephraim, but do we understand this. Judah carried kingship and Ephraim carried fruitfulness. We need BOTH of these two to come together. This is the heritage of the first-born.

Jews believe in Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. Yeshua is both of these. He is the suffering servant ( Isaiah 53) and He is the victorious King who will come to restore all things.

Last year a famous Kabbalist rabbi left a note to be read a year after his death, acknowledging all of this. He was a man revered in Jerusalem. The crowds were on the streets when he died at 106. He identified Yeshua as both God and Mashiach. He even sited the Scriptures. Something is happening in our day that is marvelous, but we must keep listening and not become closed in our thinking. I am not talking about believing the New Age Movement. All of what I say, is contained in the Word of God. He promised it!!! God spoke through the prophets and finally through His Son. These aren't new revelations, they are written in the Bible. Don't confuse revelation about the Scriptures with New Age mysticism. That would be a huge mistake RL. You need to search out the texts of Scripture for yourself. Read what the prophets say. Read what Yeshua says. Read ALL of IT. Paul says it is all useful for rebuking, repoving and training in righteousnesss. He says that the things about Moses were written for OUR instruction, upon who has come the END of the AGE!!! (1 Cor 10:11)

Folks there are so many riches in God's Word and so many promises yet to be fulfilled. Just like the Jews in Yeshua's day, didn't all recognize Him ( many did by the way) so we too today don't always have the whole picture. God is unfolding His amazing plan of redemption before our eyes. Let's not close our heart and our ears to what He is saying. ....

Anonymous said...

that's fine Dorothy, no need to respond. I will be praying for you.

Shalom and blessings in Yeshua HaMashiach,

Anonymous said...


As RL has explained, we have merely been trying to correct the inaccuracies you have presented about the Catholic Church.

Dorothy is correct that you are very ill-mannered in your presentation--you also seem to lack a capacity for critical thought and reflection. ("Too much knowledge is a dangerous thing.")

You may not have "worn yourself out" yet, J, but you have certainly worn me out. I suspect RL, too, has bigger fish to fry at this point.

Consider this post the virtual version of "Politely but firmly walking away from the Scientologist who has cornered you on the street."



Anonymous said...

"J" . . .

Like Rose and Dorothy, I am also "done" here with you.

I do want to say one last thing to you. I want to apologize for asking you what you were "smoking" -- as that was unkind of me.

I at least owe you an explanation as to why I reacted so strongly.

The idea that Constantine "invented" the Catholic Church defies LOGIC and good common sense.

Constantine ruled from 306-337 AD. If we estimate that he "invented" the Catholic Church in 325 AD (for example) -- that would be 292 years after the time of Jesus in 33 AD.

World History has already documented that there were 33 popes who ruled over the Catholic Church from the time of Peter up through the year 325 AD. So, your theory would NEGATE the existence of those 33 popes!!!

Actually, "J" -- you need to be less concerned about "offending" me and more worried about "offending" Jesus Christ Himself - not to mention those 33 popes!!! (And, of course, Pope Benedict XVI brings that total number up to 265 in the long unbroken line of popes since Peter in 33 AD.)

And, please do NOT respond. It is extremely arrogant of you to assume that everyone else here needs "saving" except you. ("Judge not lest ye be judged.")

Good-bye, "J" . . .


Anonymous said...

It's hard to accept an apology from someone who in the next breath calls me arrogant. I haven't called you any names or insulted you personally, so that is uncalled for.

As for the lineage from Peter on...that is just the kind of propaganda that the Catholic church has been selling for centuries, that an the infallibility of the Pope. Shimon Kefa was a Jew, he stayed a Jew and ministered mainly to Jews. Paul was the apostle who ministered first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. He was the one who was really responsible for starting assemblies all across the Roman Empire. James ( Yacov) the brother of Yeshua was the head of the Jerusalem assembly so their is no evidence historic or biblical for Peter being a Pope. Now if you want me to stop answering you stop making statements that I feeled compelled to respond to and I will be happy to stop. Please don't insult me again because I don't believe in the Roman Catholic Church's authority or propaganda. My allegiance is to Yeshua the Messiah and not to any man made hierarchy that Yeshua Himself never instituted or would have approved of.

Yeshua, who owned everything, since He was God, never asked us to build an empire for Him with a hierarchy and a Pope. Yeshua said, "go you therefore and make disciples ( talmadin...) another words students of Torah and of living Torah Yeshua, who was neither Catholic or interested in building a hierarchy. If He wanted, He could have defeated the Roman Empire on the spot. He had the power, but that's not what He came to do. He came to pay for our sins, He came to be a servant and to show us how to humble ourselves and reach out with the truth in love. He never minced His Word when it came to the religous authorities. He wasn't afraid to stand up to them and tell them they were a bunch of hypocrites. I'm sure if He was here today in the form of a man, He would have a few words for the Pope.

Now if I don't like the Catholic Church and the religion they instituted that's nothing personal against you RL. God Himself knows my heart and I will stand before Him. I am not arrogant. My confidence is properly placed in Yeshua HaMashiach...I take no confidence in my flesh, but only My Savior. If you call that arrogance, then clearly you don't know the meaning of the word.

Anyway, if you don't want to continue to conversation you can just leave it here and I will be fine with that. I'll be praying for you.
Blessings again in Yeshua,

Anonymous said...

To you too I will say that I have not insulted your character or person if you stop carefully and reread my posts. I took special care to make sure what I talked about was based on doctrinal points not on personalities. If you or Dorothy feel I've been rude or impolite, I'll apologize if anything I said inadvertently offended either one of you. Abba knows my heart and what's in it, so I take comfort in that.

In spite of all the insults I'll turn the other cheek and tell you blessings and Shalom to you too, I'll pray that the eyes of your heart may be open to see His redemption plan for you, and the confidence of knowing your eternal destination!

In Messiah Yeshua!


Anonymous said...

Rose and RL,
I got to thinking about J last night. Like Bill Maher who made his nasty comment about the Pope but would never dare take on the Muslims, so it is with J.

What fun it might have been to see J try to convert Paul and some of the other writers here of the strong believing Protestant community. According to J's beliefs, they need converting also. Their responses might not have been so gentle.


Anonymous said...

PS, they would be so busy praying for each other the housework would never get done.


Anonymous said...

For your information, I do share about Yeshua with Muslims and in fact I know former Muslims and Jews who now get along really well because of Yeshua. That's a miracle!! If there was a Muslim on the forum I would have addressed them too, no problem, or a Jehovah's Witness, or a Morman, or an aethiest, etc. .

I don't think you need to convert by the way. You are a just need to see your Messiah. Yeshua didn't invent Christianity. He came to His own. That's not conversion, that's just new birth. Like Yeshua said to Nicodemus, a ruler among the Jews of His day "you must be born again". One day when you give your heart to Yeshua, you will see what I am saying is true. In the meantime, I will pray for you because I know Yeshua wants to do something in your life. No, I'm not a prophet. It's what the Bible says.

As for Protestants or any other group, it's the same. Many of them are "born again". They might not understand some of the Hebraic nature of the Scriptures, but that's just a question of spiritual upbringing. Salvation comes by faith in Yeshua. Yeshua's name means that Salvation is of God. If you read Isaiah 53 you will see Yeshua the Suffering Servant. Isaiah wrote that hundreds of years before Yeshua, so how did he know. And why do most rabbis avoid reading the verse? It's a tough one to explain. It's hard to read it and not see that it is a prophecy about Yeshua.

Dorothy, instead of making insulting remarks, understand my heart is to see you know Yeshua. That's not because I have something against you. On the contrary, my people perish because they don't have a vision. I would love to see you know Yeshua, that's all. RL and Rose, might not share that with you as directly as I would, but I am a Jew so I feel compelled to tell you that it is true. Yeshua is the promised Messiah who came as the suffering servant and will come again as the victorious King. That is pretty good news in our day. All the New Age garbage and the apostasy that is happening in our day will be defeated. He will rule and reign. Everyone, will bow their knee to Him.

“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

We are called to pray without ceasing, so you can pray and do housework..or whatever else you do.
Shalom in Yeshua,

Anonymous said...

Paul has a name. Do address him and his beliefs directly. I want to see how successful you are with him. If no luck there, try Setterman. Just trying to help. Praying for you to be successful.


Anonymous said...

What fun it might have been to see J try to convert Paul and some of the other writers here of the strong believing Protestant community.

I agree Dorothy--the Evangelicals here would have been well able for this fella (or woman?) "J" whoever he/she is.

My gut response upon reflection that this "J" person has got to be a plant--no faithful Christian or Jew of any stripe would use such tactics to sincerely convert someone--the real agenda is to make Christians and Jews look ridiculous through disinformation.

You indicated a few days ago though that you've seen these tactics before used by messianic Jews (I confess -- I haven't done my homework on this movement). Is "J" typical of this group, or are there folks who class themselves as messianic who actually have some spiritual and intellectual mettle?

I'd appreciate your insights, if possible!

RL -- Unwavering, calm, courageous, and noble in battle -- thanking you for setting such a good example.

Here is the latest on Obama's "National Catholic Advisory Council" if you haven't seen it:


Anonymous said...

“J”, The scripture will not fail to perform what The Holy Father has intended; you have most beautifully echoed His truths; sadly, if you were to read the archives, much of what you have said, not as well said as you, have been included, and with a similar response, or no response at all. At some point you’ll have to let it go; Dorothy is wise enough to understand that. Some of our faith in Christ Jesus is interpreted as a type of “quietism.” I think in much of Christianity this true. However many of us understand that our first calling is to THE GOOD NEWS, and political polemics and activism take a back seat to the salvation imperative.
I am glad that you can say with the apostle Paul: “I was made a minister according to the gift of G-d’s free grace which was bestowed on me by the (working in all its effectiveness) of His power. . . (To) preach . . . the unsearchable riches of Christ.”

Anonymous said...

The others on the forum are welcome to read any posts and respond if they want to. It's a public forum, but I think I made my positions pretty clear.

...and Scripture is our best defense against the New Age Movement and all other kinds of deception. It's pretty hard to read Torah and wonder what God thinks of the kind of mixing going on.

Thanks for your prayers!

Anonymous said...

Complete list of all the Popes of the Catholic Church from 32 AD (depending on how the calendar was calculated) up to the present time:

1) Peter (32-67)
2) Linus (67-76)
3) Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4) Clement I (88-97)
5) Evaristus (97-105)
6) Alexander I (105-115)
7) Sixtus I (115-125)
8) Telesphorus (125-136)
9) Hyginus (136-140)
10) Pius I (140-155)
11) Anicetus (155-166)
12) Soter (166-175)
13) Eleutherius (175-189)
14) Victor I (189-199)
15) Zephyrinus (199-217)
16) Callistus I (217-22)
17) Urban I (222-30)
18) Pontain (230-35)
19) Anterus (235-36)
20) Fabian (236-50)
21) Cornelius (251-53)
22) Lucius I (253-54)
23) Stephen I (254-257)
24) Sixtus II (257-258)
25) Dionysius (260-268)
26) Felix I (269-274)
27) Eutychian (275-283)
28) Caius (283-296)
29) Marcellinus (296-304)
30) Marcellus I (308-309)
31) Eusebius (309 or 310)
32) Miltiades (311-14)
33) Sylvester I (314-35)
34) Marcus (336)
35) Julius I (337-52)
36) Liberius (352-66)
37) Damasus I (366-83)
38) Siricius (384-99)
39) Anastasius I (399-401)
40) Innocent I (401-17)
41) Zosimus (417-18)
42) Boniface I (418-22)
43) Celestine I (422-32)
44) Sixtus III (432-40)
45) Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
46) Hilarius (461-68)
47) Simplicius (468-83)
48) Felix III (II) (483-92)
49) Gelasius I (492-96)
50) Anastasius II (496-98)
51) Symmachus (498-514)
52) Hormisdas (514-23)
53) John I (523-26)
54) Felix IV (III) (526-30)
55) Boniface II (530-32)
56) John II (533-35)
57) St. Agapetus I (535-36)
58) St. Silverius (536-37)
59) Vigilius (537-55)
60) Pelagius I (556-61)
61) John III (561-74)
62) Benedict I (575-79)
63) Pelagius II (579-90)
64) Gregory I (590-604)
65) Sabinian (604-606)
66) Boniface III (607)
67) Boniface IV (608-15)
68) Deusdedit(Adeodatus I)(615-18)
69) Boniface V (619-25)
70) Honorius I (625-38)
71) Severinus (640)
72) John IV (640-42)
73) Theodore I (642-49)
74) Martin I (649-55)
75) Eugene I (655-57)
76) Vitalian (657-72)
77) Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
78) Donus (676-78)
79) Agatho (678-81)
80) Leo II (682-83)
81) Benedict II (684-85)
82) John V (685-86)
83) Conon (686-87)
84) Sergius I (687-701)
85) John VI (701-05)
86) John VII (705-07)
87) Sisinnius (708)
88) Constantine (708-15)
89) Gregory II (715-31)
90) Gregory III (731-41)
91) Zachary (741-52)
92) Stephen II (752) He died before being consecrated, which makes Benedict XVI #265.*
93) Stephen III (752-57)
94) Paul I (757-67)
95) Stephen IV (767-72)
96) Adrian I (772-95)
97) Leo III (795-816)
98) Stephen V (816-17)
99) Paschal I (817-24)
100)Eugene II (824-27)
101)Valentine (827)
102)Gregory IV (827-44)
103)Sergius II (844-47)
104)St. Leo IV (847-55)
105)Benedict III (855-58)
106)St. Nicholas I (858-67)
107)Adrian II (867-72)
108)John VIII (872-82)
109)Marinus I (882-84)
110)St. Adrian III (884-85)
111)Stephen VI (885-91)
112)Formosus (891-96)
113)Boniface VI (896)
114)Stephen VII (896-97)
115)Romanus (897)
116)Theodore II (897)
117)John IX (898-900)
118)Benedict IV (900-03)
119)Leo V (903)
120)Sergius III (904-11)
121)Anastasius III (911-13)
122)Lando (913-14)
123)John X (914-28)
124)Leo VI (928)
125)Stephen VIII (929-31)
126)John XI (931-35)
127)Leo VII (936-39)
128)Stephen IX (939-42)
129)Marinus II (942-46)
130)Agapetus II (946-55)
131)John XII (955-63)
132)Leo VIII (963-64)
133)Benedict V (964)
134)John XIII (965-72)
135)Benedict VI (973-74)
136)Benedict VII (974-83)
137)John XIV (983-84)
138)John XV (985-96)
139)Gregory V (996-99)
140)Sylvester II (999-1003)
141)John XVII (1003)
142)John XVIII (1003-09)
143)Sergius IV (1009-12)
144)Benedict VIII (1012-24)
145)John XIX (1024-32)
146)Benedict IX (1032-45) Twice restored, he is also #148 & #151.
147)Sylvester III (1045)
148)Benedict IX (1045)
149)Gregory VI (1045-46)
150)Clement II (1046-47)
151)Benedict IX (1047-48)
152)Damasus II (1048)
153)St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154)Victor II (1055-57)
155)Stephen X (1057-58)
156)Nicholas II (1058-61)
157)Alexander II (1061-73)
158)St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
159)Victor III (1086-87)
160)Urban II (1088-99)
161)Paschal II (1099-1118)
162)Gelasius II (1118-19)
163)Callistus II (1119-24)
164)Honorius II (1124-30)
165)Innocent II (1130-43)
166)Celestine II (1143-44)
167)Lucius II (1144-45)
168)Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169)Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170)Adrian IV (1154-59)
171)Alexander III (1159-81)
172)Lucius III (1181-85)
173)Urban III (1185-87)
174)Gregory VIII (1187)
175)Clement III (1187-91)
176)Celestine III (1191-98)
177)Innocent III (1198-1216)
178)Honorius III (1216-27)
179)Gregory IX (1227-41)
180)Celestine IV (1241)
181)Innocent IV (1243-54)
182)Alexander IV (1254-61)
183)Urban IV (1261-64)
184)Clement IV (1265-68)
185)Gregory X (1271-76)
186)Innocent V (1276)
187)Adrian V (1276)
188)John XXI (1276-77)
189)Nicholas III (1277-80)
190)Martin IV (1281-85)
191)Honorius IV (1285-87)
192)Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193)Celestine V (1294)
194)Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195)Benedict XI (1303-04)
196)Clement V (1305-14)
197)John XXII (1316-34)
198)Benedict XII (1334-42)
199)Clement VI (1342-52)
200)Innocent VI (1352-62)
201)Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202)Gregory XI (1370-78)
203)Urban VI (1378-89)
204)Boniface IX (1389-1404)
205)Innocent VII (1404-06)
206)Gregory XII (1406-15)
207)Martin V (1417-31)
208)Eugene IV (1431-47)
209)Nicholas V (1447-55)
210)Callistus III (1455-58)
211)Pius II (1458-64)
212)Paul II (1464-71)
213)Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214)Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215)Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216)Pius III (1503)
217)Julius II (1503-13)
218)Leo X (1513-21)
219)Adrian VI (1522-23)
220)Clement VII (1523-34)
221)Paul III (1534-49)
222)Julius III (1550-55)
223)Marcellus II (1555)
224)Paul IV (1555-59)
225)Pius IV (1559-65)
226)St. Pius V (1566-72)
227)Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228)Sixtus V (1585-90)
229)Urban VII (1590)
230)Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231)Innocent IX (1591)
232)Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233)Leo XI (1605)
234)Paul V (1605-21)
235)Gregory XV (1621-23)
236)Urban VIII (1623-44)
237)Innocent X (1644-55)
238)Alexander VII (1655-67)
239)Clement IX (1667-69)
240)Clement X (1670-76)
241)Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242)Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243)Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244)Clement XI (1700-21)
245)Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246)Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247)Clement XII (1730-40)
248)Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249)Clement XIII (1758-69)
250)Clement XIV (1769-74)
251)Pius VI (1775-99)
252)Pius VII (1800-23)
253)Leo XII (1823-29)
254)Pius VIII (1829-30)
255)Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256)Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257)Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258)St. Pius X (1903-14)
259)Benedict XV (1914-22)
260)Pius XI (1922-39)
261)Pius XII (1939-58)
262)John XXIII (1958-63)
263)Paul VI (1963-78)
264)John Paul I (1978-78)
265)John Paul II (1978-2005)
266)Benedict XVI (2005—) *Actually #265, as Stephen II(#92) died before being consecrated.

Anonymous said...


"J" trying to convert Paul?

Hey, I'll buy tickets to that. LOL


Anonymous said...

Rose (11:45 AM):

Thank you for your kind and generous comments.

Also appreciate the info. on Obama. I'll check it out.


Anonymous said...

Dear Setterman,
Thanks for your kind comments. It's nice to be understood. I might write a little more in spite of your very good advice.

You are something else. You haven't seen me write about anyone but Yeshua, and you still find things that are unkind to say. You are so caught up in your way of thinking that you don't realize that I was sharing the Gospel with Dorothy a Jew, from a Jewish perspective. Yes, that's what you call a Messianic. I have a little clue for you Yeshua's disciples were Messianics. In Greek the word Christos...followers of the Christ, the annointed one.

I just wanted Dorothy to know that there are people that believe in Yeshua, but keep Torah, observe the feasts....dietary laws and don't think He started a church since He and all His followers went to the Temple in Jerusalem and synagogues.....even after His death.

You might think about your attitude. Most people would want to see a daughter of Abraham know her Mashiach. Since we are all saved by the shed blood of Yeshua, including Jews for our violations of Torah, we really need to know Him.

Israel was given Torah, but God warned them that He'd punish them and scatter them if they didn't obey it. He was faithful to His Word. He also promised to regather them one day and put Torah on their heart. That happens through accepting the blood of Yeshua as a substitionary atonement for our sins.

Israel had a temple with animal offerings ( korban) which allowed them to confess their sin and draw near to God. The priest was the only one who could go into the Holy of Holies. These sacrifices never got rid of sin completely. Yeshua's death and shedding of blood allowed our sins to be cleansed in Heaven giving us access to the Father.

Jews without Yeshua will be judged on the basis of Torah, which if you read the Bible you would see the penalty for sin is death. We will all be judged for our sins in fact, except that those of us who have accepted the atoning work of Messiah for the payment in full of our sins will be aquitted of our sins. All of the Temple and sacrificial system is to point us to Yeshua. Yeshua did not break Torah, did not eat pork, did not break Shabbat and He never made Shimon Kefa (Peter) the Pope of anything. The reason Jews can't see their Messiah, is because of the way He's been portrayed for centuries. Certainly not as a Torah observant Jew, and then as the founder of a new which I say nonsense. Yeshua, Rav Shaul, Shimon Kefa, Yohanan and all the rest were born and died as Jews..

Now if I was trying to explain the gospel to Dorothy in a way that she may have never heard it before, in a Jewish way, you should be kind enough to not make remarks that are not only false but indicate that you really don't care much about Dorothy after all. God commands you to make disciples, not Catholics, disciples ( talmadin in Hebrew) students of Him. What did He do....? He brought good news, healed the sick, raised the dead, liberated the captives. Why would you think that someone that does nothing but talk about Yeshua and the Bible is a "plant"?

I'll repeat my earlier comments. Go read your Bible and you will learn things that you have never learned about God. Don't be mad at me if the Church has kept you from reading for yourself. That's not my fault and I'm not going to let you try to stop me from sharing what Yeshua has put in my heart. Spare me the remarks that only reveal what's in your heart. When we don't have anything nice to say about someone, it's better to be quiet.

As for RL, who promised not to write anymore the list of popes is very impressive but not convincing. There is not Biblical basis for calling Peter a Pope. Shimon was an apostle mainly to the Jews and was even criticized by Paul for shying away from the Gentiles. He would have been a better rabbi than Pope. Yacov, brother of Yeshua was the head of the Jerusalem assembly.

The Catholic church will be one of the leaders in the New Age movement. The pope just spoke at UN and applauded their work and thinks they are the ones we all need to listen to. I guess he didn't know about Alice Bailey's influence on the UN, too bad.

The former pope kissed the Quran....I'm sure he was just trying to be nice in front of that terrorist Yasser Arafat... The Catholic Church would kick the Jews out of the Land of Israel in a heartbeat. Don't be surprised if the pope ends up being involved in the One World Relgion....I wouldn't be at all.

The Jesus of the Catholic Church is unrecognizable to a Jew. I know Yeshua the risen Messiah who will come and reign from Jerusalem. The Torah will go out from Zion ( Is 2). Yeshua, who was the suffering servant of Is 53, will reign as the Prince of Peace.

Next time you criticize Rose, take a moment to think first. Ask yourself the question, would God who sent Yeshua to the Jews first want Dorothy to hear about her Jewish Messiah?

Dorothy, my family was killed because they were Jews all over Europe. I will never stop being a Jew, but my Messiah Yeshua never stopped being a Jew either. He was from the tribe of Judah, circumcised on the 8th day. When preaching, this is one of the many verses He quoted from:

I am the LORD, I have called you in righteousness,
I will also hold you by the hand and watch over you,And I will appoint you as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,
To open blind eyes,To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. “I am the LORD, that is My name;I will not give My glory to another,Nor My praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:6-9

Here all you Catholics, notice the line about the graven images.. Yeshua quoted from this verse in Luke Chapter 4:18.


May Yeshua haMashiach give you sight to see what He has done for you and how He wants to cleanse you from your sins and give you life in all of its fulness.


Anonymous said...

Here in the Chicago area every summer the Messianic Jews for Jesus stand on street corners in the downtown area passing out their cute little cartoon booklets telling Jews to check out Jesus. The organization gives them free trips to Chicago to do this. The supposed goal is to show Jews that they can accept Jesus as the Messiah. Now if that was the goal, don't you think they would be standing outside of Jewish Community Centers, the Jewish Federation office building, the various agencies as well as synagogues and temples. Instead they hand out these pamphets by the hundreds to Christians in downtown Chicago as they get off trains and on street corners.

What's the hidden goal? I think it is to convince huge numbers of Christians that there can be a one world religion where Jews accept Jesus as the messiah. Jews who don't want to cooperate are seen as Alice Bailey sees them as people who don't want to cooperate, who insist on seeing themselves as separate, an evil thing. RL, you were on target.

Messianics also like to target the Jews coming over from the FSU because they don't know very much about Judaism as this was kept from them in the FSU.

Jews have set up a number of organizations to counter these missionary efforts.

Hebrew Christianity or Messianic Judaism is a large movement. It is estimated there are about 30,000 in a community of 14 million Jews. Also know that all members of these groups are not necessarily Jewish in background.

I thought about posting some websites that refute the program of Messianic Jews, but I decided not to list them because they might offend some Christians who read here. For those interested, it is easy enough to do a websearch.

Oh Messianic Jews can be nice people with happy singing, dancing, ritual resembling Jewish rituals and Jewish foods. I grumble too much to stay around such people for very long.


Anonymous said...


Thanks for your thoughtful post. I will respond on the newest thread tomorrow, I really can't come back to this one. It is long enough as it is.

"j" you have put out and extraordinary amount of information, and thought provoking ideas to follow up on during my scripture readings. Thanks for your perseverance.

This will probably elicit much critisism, but I am an avid watcher of programs that show Christians their Hebraic roots. It puts the New Testament into context for me.

Anonomous- concerning the Iron and Clay. It was evident that Iron is the decendents of Roman Empire, not sure what the Clay is yet. But as for the emerging powers in Europe, there is definately two emerging directions, one of global governance new age style and one of global governance sharia law style.

That is all for me tonight. Sorry it took so long to post responses. I again made the mistake of not checking back on old threads. Good thing I have friends who read this blog too.


Anonymous said...

In spite of the efforts of many of the anti-missionary types, I can tell you that many Jews are coming to know Yeshua in this last 40+ years. The numbers are growing all the time. It's not because of organizations like Jews for Jesus, it's because of what God is doing in these last days. He's restoring Israel. He's restoring His Torah. His putting Torah on their hearts. He's pouring out His Spirit on His people. It's truly miraculous!

I know it's nothing I say to a Jew, a Muslim a New Ager that convinces anyone of the reality of Yeshua's death and resurrection. That's a work of the Ruach HaKodesh. The truth is, it's happening in our day and there's a reason for it. As we are getting closer and closer to Yeshua's return God is changing the trends of the last 1900 years.

Notice, I didn't say 2000 years, because the fist century it was mainly Jews pointing people to Messiah. As the Gentile believers entered the movement, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews who didn't believe in Yeshua were looking for a Messiah who would defeat the Romans ( Simon Bar Kokhba) many things caused this division between Jewish believers and Gentiles that we see being institutionalized, by the Catholic Church. Gentile believers also did not want to be persecuted with the Jews, so it was easier to change Shabbat and do many other things that would make them not look Jewish to the Romans. It's actually pretty complex history. The rabbinic system became more important without the Temple in Jerusalem.

The bottom line is in the First Century, followers of Yeshua were considered a sect of Judaism not a different religion. There were Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, etc. Judaism at the time was far from unified. Today it's still not unified. Believing in a Messiah is a very Jewish concept. It's just that most Jews were awaiting a victorious King back then. Yeshua will come a Messiah ben David this time, but His mission back then was to be the Passover Lamb who would spill His blood, so that His people could be free from sin. He was also the goat of Yom Kippur as He made national atonement for His people. His is the First Fruits of the resurrection!!

Jews by the thousands and thousands are believing in Yeshua today. They are not converting to Christianity. They are just recognizing that the Scriptures are being fulfilled in Yeshua. They are realizing that this truth has been obscured because of Christianity which doesn't look much like what they've been told to obey. I'm not criticizing Christianity here. I really believe this split was permitted by God Himself for a very precise reason. That goes back to the two houses of Israel that have been divided. Joseph's brothers didn't recognize him either. He looked like an Egyptian, a gentile, even though he was the one who had the Bread of Life...remember his brothers had to go to Egypt to eat..

It's been like this between the Church and the Jews. Jews have kept the Torah alive for all these centuries, but Christians have known that the manna in the desert is Yeshua, He is the bread of life..Among the Christians we have the scattered tribes of Israel who have been gathered up with the nations as the gospel goes out. Assyria scattered their enemies and mixed them in the nations. In the book of Kings, it says that this split is from God Himself.

The Christians have the bread of life, but they don't look at all like Jews. Judah has stopped looking for his brother Joseph whose in exile too. These two sticks WILL be reunited one day soon. Read the chapter 37 in Ezekiel about the dry bones, but read it just till the end when the TWO STICKS become ONE under a Davidic king.

Israel is God's firstborn. When Jacob was heading back to see his brother Esau, he split the family in two, because if one side was attacked the other would be safe. One of the great mysteries is the fact that God has hid His people in the nations to the point where they don't even know who they are. I lived this first hand, so I know it happens a lot more than we realize.

God is restoring all of Israel, including the 10 tribes. In the end of time in spite of all the bad things that will happen first. Israel will receive her land inheritance. Each tribe will get what's alloted to them, and the aliens will dwell among them in peace. All the nations, according to the prophet Zechariah, will go up to Jerusalem once a year and celebrate Succot. Israel will be restored to its position of favor under King Yeshua.

I know of rabbis that are coming to believe in Yeshua. They are not all going public yet. Many are
waiting until the time is right.

As the famous rabbi Gamaliel said of the Apostles in the book of Acts:

“So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.” Acts 5:38-39

No offense at all to you. I pray that the eyes of your heart will be open to see that God loved you so much He was willing to send Yeshua to die for you, so that you may have life and have it to the fullest.

When the dreaded false messiah, the anti-messiah comes and deceives the world. He will be in the holy place according to the prophet Daniel, do not be deceived. Yeshua will come in the clouds and all will see Him. Read Matt 24, as He describes His return and how to avoid the one who will come to deceive the nations.

Today the time is more urgent than ever, to not only warn people about the New Age, which I consider very important, but to point them to the truth. It's God's job, not mine Dorothy to open your eyes. It's my job to proclaim the truth and allow His Spirit to work in your heart.

I could say so much more about Yeshua, and what He has done in my life and the life of all my family, but I will just let these words sink in a little and tell you that you will never regret a decision to follow Him. I don't know one person, Jew or otherwise who has regretted this decision.

We are really seeing miracles with all the bad in our day. We know many Muslims who have come to know Yeshua and are even willing to be persecuted for their faith in Him. Many of these are turning and saying that they love Israel. Now, only God Himself can do something like this in the heart of a Muslim.

The promises of God are eternal, so all that He promised to our people will come to pass, we just need to go out into the desert with Him and listen to His voice. If you read Torah carefully, you will see Yeshua in. If God could come to His people as a pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire, could He not reveal Himself as man? Of course He can, He is God and He chose to come and identify with us in our weakness. To defeat Satan, Yeshua came and did what WE CANNOT DO. He lived a blameless life and in doing so legally defeated Satan's power over all the earth which Satan acquired in the Garden when Adam and Eve listened to him instead of God.

In Him, we are new creations, we are born again. He dwells in us through His Ruach HaKodesh and we have becoming living stones who all together make up His Body, His House i.e. the Mishkan and the Temple. Remember, He used to dwell there in the Ark of the Tabernacle. There is not Ark, there is no Temple.

God has not removed His presence from the earth. He is dwelling, as He always promised, with His people. We are His people. When we purify our bodies from sin through the blood of the Lamb on the doors of our heart, He can then work through us. We have new life in Yeshua. The Good News is God did not leave the Jews without a means to come into His presence. We don't have to waiting for the rebuilding of the third temple. He is here now and wants to dwell with you. It's very Jewish to want to have God's presence with you. All the prayers of the rabbis cannot do that. God established His requirements in Torah and Yeshua came that these requirements might be met. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

Did you know that Moses had the gospel preached to him? He looked forward to Yeshua's coming, so did Abraham. We look back on it. We understand Torah in the light of Yeshua. He is our Shabbat rest. In Him we have true rest, because He said "it is finished". He defeated the powers of darkness who rule on Earth. He will restore us to the place of "His delight" paradise, one day soon.

I hope you get a chance to meet other Jews who have accepted their Messiah and talk to them about it. It will truly be a blessing for you. By the way, the majority of Jews today are quite secular, especially in Israel which is why the New Age movement has made inroads into the Jewish community. Most of my Jewish friends that I grew up with practice yoga, meditation, go to weird New Age congregations. They are empty and trying to fill the void with something. Religious practices cannot fill the void. Rituals do not bring life. God Himself brings life. He is the only one who does!!

Blessings and shalom to you and may you know the joy of knowing your beloved Mashiach,


Anonymous said...

I hope some day your eyes are opened and you begin to understand Judaism, not the distorted version you are preaching.


Anonymous said...

I guess I should clarify that I am not interested in practicing rabbinic Judaism although, I think there is sometimes lots of wisdom in it. I am a Jew, as far as I know from the tribe of Levi. I am most interested in Torah. I see Judaism as developing out of the Babylonian exile and I think things were added. I'm not convinced that the oral Torah has preserved the words of Moses exactly. That's what the rabbis say, but it was a long time after Moses. There may be parts that are accurate, but I would never based my faith on the oral Torah because I think it's been added too. If it wasn't Judaism would be more unified.

By the time you get to Second Temple Judaism there is lots of division. In King David's day you had the Torah, and that was really all. Israel was echad. Like God is echad. (composite unity). Yeshua came and gave proper interpretation to Torah.

If you look at where Yeshua fit in in HIs day, He would have been closely aligned with the school of Hillel on most points. In fact if you read His words in Matt 5, He sounds almost exactly like Hillel as opposed to Shimei. He would have been a typical rabbi of His day giving His positions on various aspects of Torah i.e. how to celebrate Shabbat. I wonder if you ever read Yeshua's sayings in the Newer Covenant. Most Jews, when they finally do read it say, "that's the best commentary on Torah, I ever read". Most Christians don't recognize this because they haven't been brought up with hebrew idioms and thinking.

If you read about Yeshua, instead of just believing everything the rabbis tell you, you might be surprised to see that He makes a lot of sense. He confirms all of Torah. He explains the meaning of Torah. He is Torah. In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word WAS God....Yohanan is making a reference here to Bereshit.( Genesis). He is saying that Yeshua was the Word who was there at the foundation of the world. He is the Creator, but HE came in the flesh.

Why is it so hard to believe that God would do this. Was Israel able to redeem themselves? To this day have we been able to redeem ourselves? Who was it that led us out of Egypt? What is so strange that God Himself would deliver us from Satan? He delivered us from Pharoah who is a type of Satan.

WE human beings, especially US Israelites have been limiting God forever...i.e. Sara "can God really give me a son in my old age?" Jacob, "can God really save me from my brother Esau?" Are we really going to have to bow down to our brother Joseph, the favored son of our father? Can God really get us across the Red Sea? Is He going to leave us here in the desert to starve? How are we going to go into the land with those giants? etc, etc, etc,. Israel has a history of doubt. Look at the Jews today surrounded by their enemies. Do you think they are trusting God to deliver them, or are they waiting to see who the next US President will be? Are they depending on HaShem or their nukes.?

Doubt has always been our problem, and when God tells us He's going to do something out of the ordinary, we don't believe Him. Moses said one greater than he was coming, and He did, it was Yeshua.

Abraham knew that God Himself would provide the sacrifice, the substitute for his son Isaac when he was about to sacrifice him. Imagine, God showed us in that very story that a father was about to sacrifice his son, but then God provided a substitute, the ram. That story is pointing us forward to another Father and Son. Yes, God is echad (one), but He is composite unity. YHVH and Yeshua are echad. Just like a husband and wife are echad (one flesh).

Yeshua bore our iniquities. I will end with these verses in which the prophet Isaiah describes Yeshua better than I can. See if you see Yeshua in it. REMEBER, this is from the Tanach:

¶ Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Is. 53:2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
Is. 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Is. 53:4 ¶ Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Is. 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
Is. 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Is. 53:7 ¶ He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
Is. 53:8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
Is. 53:9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
Is. 53:10 ¶ But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Is. 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
Is. 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

May Abba, open your eyes to see your Yeshua in these verses. "j"

Anonymous said...

HI Leanna,
Bless you and keep searching and learning about the Scriptures. They are treasures in there that we don't always understand. We are 2000 and sometimes 3500 years away from the original sources, then we have our English translations. There is so much more to get out of them as we study original context of Scripture. Don't let anyone discourage you from doing that.

As for the iron and clay ( I know that comment wasn't to me but...) I have my suspicion that it might have something to do with the Resurrection Roman Empire and the mixing of Islamic nations. They are like clay and iron. They don't mix. The Arab oil producing nations have their wealth from the ground? Just a hunch, but I don't know. All we know that is that Islam is coming into all the Western nations trying to take over ( this is called any means, economic, etc.) and there is great conflict because of this.

I guess we'll all find out one of these days very soon if we keep our eyes open. Blessings in Yeshua,

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