Friday, December 22, 2006

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all my Blogspot Readers!

The following is a reprint of my article on Alliance of Civilizations as published on  You may read it in the original at

By: Constance CumbeyDecember 19, 2006

One is, it appears, allowed to have a religion in the “New World Order,” a/k/a “Alliance of Civilizations,” a/k/a “global governance.” One is not, however, allowed to believe it true. Nor is one allowed to tell others it is true. If somebody believes that “Maitreya is the Christ,” Rev. Moon is “the Lord of the Second Advent,” or Sai Baba is God, they may tell you their religion is true. That is called “dialogue.” If a Christian dares to suggest Jesus is the only way, that is called “proselytizing.” We are looking at what anti-Christian writer, Theosophist Gina Cerminara during her lifetime cheerfully admitted in her books was a “war of general semantics.”
The newest and most powerful front in this war I have seen to date is the Kofi Annan convened, Javier Solana 2003 originated “Alliance of Civilizations.” Officially proposed, no doubt at the request of Dr. Solana, by prime ministers of Turkey (Erdogan) and Spain (Zapatero), it is a powerful convergence of politics and religion blending into frightening and fast-growing “global governance.” Right on schedule, its “High Level Group of Eminent Personalities,” (amazingly similar to long disappeared former Lucis Trust administrator, Donald Keys’, and his then 1981 proposed “World Council of Wise Persons”) issued its final recommendations on November 13, 2006. You may read it for yourself by clicking here.
What a surprise! I didn’t get an invitation to make my input! Karen Armstrong, an obviously apostate former Roman Catholic nun did. She is one of the “Eminent Personalities.” Not making it quite to that level, but respectfully listened to at Palais des Nations hearings in Geneva on July 17th, 2006 was another apparent Catholic sell-out to the New World Religion: Fr. Gaspar Martinez. He purports to represent something he calls Pax Romana. Curious, I also found him on a search posing with a group of Spaniards in something called “Bilbao 2005. Its symbol looked amazingly like a spiral formed mirror image 666. Its theology sounded remarkably like Matthew Fox. As to Karen Armstrong, her new and lofty position as an eminent personality” has put her in a place where she may even be a form of female pope. She comfortably thinks she can tell the present one what he may think – as well as what the rest of us should believe.
They believe they have placed standards and recommendations in place for governmental (oops, ‘global governance’) action to come – soon. Here’s a sampling:
  1. “Guidelines and mechanisms should be established to ensure that religious schools are registered with authorities and that their curricula do not foster hatred of other communities.”[1] [Does that include AOC incitement of hatred against fundamentalism? Probably not!]

  2. “Religious leaders, education policymakers, and interfaithcivic organizations should work together to develop consensus guidelines for teaching about religions.”

  3. “Governments and international organizations should work together to convene curriculum-review panels consisting of curriculum experts and representatives of the major faith traditions to review widely used educational curricula, ensuring they meet guidelines for fairness, accuracy, and balance in discussing religious beliefs and that they do not denigrate any faith or its adherents.
* “A reciprocal review mechanism would develop guidelines for fairness, accuracy, and balance in teaching about other religions and cultures, help guarantee consistency in their application across diverse regions, and encourage countries to work together toward these goals in their education systems.”
This AOC agenda was obviously not immaculately conceived. It has clearly traceable roots to another person on whom I have placed much focus over the past 11 years: Javier Solana. Nor was it originated by the two given public credit for same, the prime ministers of Spain and Turkey respectively, Tayyip Erdogan and Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. Both of them, deeply indebted to Javier Solana, obviously received their sponsorship mantles from him as he seeks to keep a lowered profile on this potentially explosive issue, especially given the increasingly critical attention he has received from prophecy watchers after the creation of his job with Europa code section 666 and his June 2000 power boosting proposal “Recommendation 666.” Small wonder he is laying a little lower on this one! But he has left his mark.
Googling “Alliance of Civilizations” also known as “Alliance of Civilisations” to British Commonwealth countries, yielded 118,000 hits as I was writing this article. The Yahoo! Search engine yielded a lesser but still impressive number of 85,300 ones. Its adopted symbol is hardly a mark of “civilization” – it is a creepy obvious “eye of horus” with a planet in place of the eye. It is obviously designed to bring more comfort to pagans than to monotheists of any stripe!
The “Alliance of Civilizations” would, when fully implemented bring planetary religious liberty, at least for those taking their revealed religion seriously, to a crashing halt. It would, inter alia require registration of all religious schools with the UN under the arm of a to-be-appointed “High Representative for the Alliance of Civilizations.” Interestingly, the same title that Javier Solana holds for the European Union: “High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy.”
[Order Constance Cumbey's book #25, "Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow" while supply lasts]
Javier Solana has been talking much as of late about what he calls a borderless, “toxic brew” that he says refers to the “use or misuse” of religion. He mentioned this in at least two public speeches that I have had occasion to read from the internet. One of them was in his acceptance of a Carnegie Peace Prize award. I am starting to suspect that he is campaigning for this “High Representative” position as well and if he is not, you can bet that he will have much to say about who gets the job!
The much maligned Book of Revelation and the equally maligned Old Testament Book of Daniel contain specific and alarming prophecies about an end time dictator making war on those keeping the faith of Jesus and the commandments of God. War is nearly always preceded by marginalizing and propaganda. The New Agers whom I have observed closely since 1981 have a well advertised slogan: Crisis = Opportunity.
The opening chess moves for the Alliance of Civilizations came in 2003 and meetings were steadily had in 2004 and 2005. Then in March came the crisis that generated the real opportunity – the Danish cartoon crisis.
Aren’t there days you just wonder if that was a precipitated crisis designed to inflame to generate the opportunity to put the three Abrahamic religions under as Alice Bailey said should happen in her writings:
“There are certain areas of evil in the world today through which these forces of darkness can reach humanity. What they are and where they are I do not intend to say. I would point out, however, that Palestine should no longer be called the Holy Land; its sacred places are only the passing relics of three dead and gone religions. The spirit has gone out of the old faiths and the true spiritual light is transferring itself into a new form which will manifest on earth eventually as the new world religion. To this form all that is true and right and good in the old forms will contribute, for the forces of right will withdraw that good, and incorporate it in the new form. Judaism is old, obsolete and separative and has no true message for the spiritually-minded which cannot be better given by the newer faiths; the Moslem faith has served its purpose and all true Moslems await the coming of the Imam Mahdi who will lead them to light and to spiritual victory; the Christian faith also has served its purpose; its Founder seeks to bring a new Gospel and a new message that will enlighten all men everywhere. Therefore, Jerusalem stands for nothing of importance today, except for that which has passed away and should pass away. The "Holy Land" is no longer holy, but is desecrated by selfish interests, and by a basically separative and conquering nation.
“The task ahead of humanity is to close the door upon this worst and yet secondary evil and shut it in its own place.”
Well, as my critics have said for the past 25 years, I surely must be reading too much into this. And, another coincidence of coincidence: There it was, page 61 “Hearings with the International Community & Civil Society regarding the: United Nations High Level Group for the Alliance of Civilisations, one Ghislaine de Reydet, representing Lucis Trust-Bonne Volonté [World Goodwill]. “Googling” Mme de Reydet, I discovered her to be none other than the “Secretary General” of Lucis Trust of Switzerland
For the record, I have three books in my personal library from the time Lucis Publishing Company (owned by Lucis Trust) published as “Lucifer Publishing.” Another “coincidence,” I suppose. Well, I wonder when the Alliance of Civilizations will get around to analyzing the incitement from that organization against what David Spangler calls “Peoples of the Book” – Jews, Christians, and Moslems. Never, I suspect!
Oh, and one last thing. Lucis Trust and its “World Goodwill" have made a “generous” suggestion for something that could solidify an “Alliance of Civilizations.” They have generously offered the world the use of its “Great Invocation.” I wonder how widely they will circulate its last stanza: “Let light and love and power and death fulfill the purpose of the Coming One.” I wonder further how much publicity they will give to page 548 of its co-founder, Alice Ann Bailey’s quoting her “Djwhal Khul” master suggesting that the atomic bomb could be used to keep powerful religious groups such as the Church of Rome should they not leave politics alone. I suspect none! I suspect the Alliance of Civilizations won’t do much about that “incitement” either. I further am growing in the suspicion that the Alliance of Civilizations may be a grand culmination of long awaited Lucis Trust “prophecies” a/k/a plans. I recommend author Lee Penn’s excellent book, False Dawn, as well as his excellent New Oxford Review articles appearing from time to time in that journal for more detail. I first wrote of this group myself in my 1983 book, still available from for a limited time, The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow: The New Age Movement and our coming age of barbarism.
Fasten your seatbelts – spiritual and otherwise -- friends. The ride is getting very bumpy! Keep the faith!
1, Page 34, HLAG Final Report for Alliance of Civilizations, November 13, 2006.
© 2006 - Constance Cumbey - All Rights Reserved

I noticed that at the NewswithViews column an error in the biographical error. They pulled it from the University of Michigan site which is current and accurate; however, my leadership activities in the National Association of Women Lawyers and American Bar Association's Family Law Committee of the General Practice section occurred pre-book and are not current. I am currently very active in the Detroit Bar Association and Macomb County Bar Association and that's about all I have time for. I sat on the committee giving judicial ratings for the past 30 years, since 1977 when the then current Detroit Bar Association appointed me to that important committee and I was continuously reappointed, even during the years I was heavier on the lecture tour than actively practicing law, from 1982 to 1989.

A blessed Christmas to all!

What I call the Detroit Bar Association is now legally known as the Detroit Metropolitan Bar Association since lawyers all over the greater Detroit Metropolitan area participate.
A merry Christmas to all reading this blog entry. Frankly, Constance, I'm amazed you have time to put entries in this blog, with your busy law practice, family responsibilities (including that new grandson), and the responsibilities to the bar association you list (not to mention your research into Javier Solana). I feel blessed by God, given my health history, when I have the energy to do blog entries.
Rich of Medford asked about additional evidences on Solana and beginnings of AOC. There are many --but I just found another VERY INTERESTING and VERY RECENT one -- the government of Spain just announced it would contribute $700 toward the Alliance of Civilizations initiative. The Radio Free Europe article now interestingly credits Iran's former leader, Khatami as having originated the concept in 2000.

Here is a link:

I encourage those more "short url" savvy than me to turn it into one.

I don't think you have the complete URL up.
I just did some more research on the alleged Khatami links and found an amazing blogspot called Seraphic Secret,, which linked Khatami to some very disturbing past events. Along with that I found some very cogent comments from our own "Rich of Medford"

Another interesting aspect to the whole Alliance of Civilizations is the cartoon crisis. The UN document that announced the formation of the Alliance indicates that the UN had foreknowledge of the Jyllands-Posten cartoons. A journalist from the newspaper published an article that asks the question “Are we dealing with random events or with a staged clash of civilizations?” Perhaps he is suspicious because three cartoons not initially published by the Post were inserted into the collection. See the article here:

Immediately following the cartoon crisis EU High Representative for Common and Foreign Security Policy Javier Solana, along with Kofi Annan, and the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) called for restrictions on free speech.

Similarly, we’ve just witnesses another crisis situation through the Muslim world “caused” by Pope Benedict. Of course to these people crisis = opportunity. Again, Javier Solana called for restrictions on free speech. As well, the OIC asked the UN Human Rights Council to cite the Pope for religious intolerance. (By the way, the Council is the biggest anti-Israel body I’ve ever seen.)

In 1995 at the opening of the Barcelona Conference that created the framework for the EU’s foreign policy, Javier Solana told participants that they had been brought together to straighten out the clash of civilizations. As one reads through the Alliance of Civilizations documents, its intended purpose is to straighten out the clash of civilizations. Spain’s working documents shows that the Alliance intends to work within the framework of the Barcelona Process. (Incidentally, Solana stepped into the EU when he was Spain’s foreign minister). Does anyone else see a pattern here?

Posted by: RichInMedford at October 1, 2006 11:02 PM

Thanks Constance for the $700 million link. I encountered this one yesterday myself. I think the strongest link to Solana is the Barcelona Process connection with implementation through the Anna Lindh Foundation. The objectives are identical.

One begins to look at Solana as a puppet master as one examines the evidence.


I tried to tune in radio liberty on short wave Friday p.m., but no success. How did it go? I'm watching their web site for the broadcast to list under past programs.

Is the Alliance of Civilizations an ENEMY of the Vatican?

Seems Constance would want you to believe so.

Rome has supported every other NGO UN interfaith plan, I thought why not this one too?

So I went and searched right on the Vatican website.


"Representatives will recall how the UN dedicated the year 2001 to dialogue among civilizations and how, last November, the Secretary-General launched the Alliance of Civilizations. Not long ago, a Tripartite Forum on inter-religious dialogue and cooperation for peace was also launched to bring together Governments, the UN system and civil society. My delegation hopes that good use should be made of this new interest in the UN in cooperation among religions and in building bridges between cultures and civilizations. Undoubtedly, religion has an enormously positive potential when given the chance."

"The Holy See is willing to support initiatives that encourage believers to be agents of peace and join all those who would be builders of our peaceful coexistence. Moreover, when religion’s true nature is rightly understood and lived out, it can become part of the solution rather than the problem, because it will promote humane engagement and regard for the dignity of others, to the common good of us all."

It looks like the Pope with his recent trip to Turkey is WORKING HAND IN HAND with the ALLIANCE OF CIVILIZATION AND ITS GOALS.

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) -- Turkey's prime minister said Tuesday that he hoped Pope Benedict XVI's visit to Turkey would promote worldwide peace, and he urged Turks to show their traditional hospitality to the pontiff.

"We hope that this visit will help advance the alliance of civilizations and global peace," Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told lawmakers of his Islamic-rooted party in parliament on Tuesday, shortly before the pope's arrival.

and look what is posted right on their website...
Revelation 17 is TRUE folks and now coming to pass.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

The ENTIRE world is joining together supporting the antichrist interfaith agenda...

The Vatican is leading the way, apostate prot and "evangelical" churches have joined up.
The Lucis Trust GREAT INVOCATION or a variant of it, can be found right on the Vatican website.

COMMON COMMITMENT TO PEACE AND FAREWELL in Lower Saint Francis’ Square in Assisi. Introductory Monition by Cardinal Francis Arinze, President of the Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue. Reading in various languages of the common commitment to peace [Plurlingual]. Short exhortation by the Holy Father:

Violence never again!
War never again!
Terrorism never again!
In God's name,
may all religions bring upon earth
justice and peace,
forgiveness, life and love!

Reread that middle line again...


BTW this is a personal note to Constance,



You noticed, Dorothy. (grin)

There is something that keeps nagging at me, but I’m unable to find exactly what I’m looking for in terms of clear linkages between Solana and Khatami. As you can see from the below excerpt of an article written by Solana, he was well aware of Samuel Huntington’s thesis “The Clash of Civilizations” even before Khatami concocted his response "The Dialogue of Civilizations". One possible linkage is the Anna Lindh Foundation's embrace of Khatami’s work.

"NATO and the Mediterranean" By Javier Solana

“The negative potential of developments in the Mediterranean should not be denied or glossed over. But what is arguable is the fatalistic undercurrent running through many analyses. Perhaps one ought to be thankful to Samuel Huntington for pointing out the importance of cultural factors in determining our security. Yet, on balance, his notion of a coming "clash of civilisations" looks itself very much like Western ethnocentrism…We have made a very good start in our relations with countries in the Mediterranean Dialogue”

It's Christmas! What's a holiday without a visit from Crabby Old Uncle Earl.
You're right. He's family.


"His Eminence Walter Cardinal Kasper, Chief Rabbi Israel Singer, chairman of the World Jewish Congress, and Turkey's Religious Affairs Director Ali Bardakoğlu will chair a joint session in order to highlight the tolerance of monotheist religions."


"Turkey's full support for mutual understanding and dialogue between cultures and civilizations is also evidenced by its co-sponsorship of the U.N.-led �Alliance of Civilizations� project. Erdoğan and his Spanish counterpart, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, are the co-chairmen of the U.N. initiative, whose goal is to bridge divides, overcome prejudice and polarization in the world and advance mutual respect for religious beliefs and traditions."

Welcome Speech by Archbishop Celestino Migliore

"The UN dedicated the year 2001 to dialogue among civilizations and, last year a new formula was launched, called the Alliance of Civilizations. Not only that, a couple of countries recently set up a Tripartite Forum on inter-religious dialogue and cooperation for peace.


"Once again I would like to thank our panelists this evening, who will hopefully shed some light on this, as well as on the contribution that the UN is giving to the epoch-making exercise in dialogue and reciprocal understanding.",Migliore2006.html

an interfaith group working in tandem with a special represenative from the Alliance of Civilizations that includes TWO CARDINALS.
The "anonymous" who uses this forum to attack the Roman Catholic Church at least must be given credit for quoting his source. After the general remarks he quotes from an address made in relationship to anti-terrorism.

In the search for truth let us continue the quote in the context of the address-

"The Holy See is willing to support initiatives that encourage believers to be agents of peace and join all those who would be builders of our peaceful coexistence. Moreover, when religion’s true nature is rightly understood and lived out, it can become part of the solution rather than the problem, because it will promote humane engagement and regard for the dignity of others, to the common good of us all.

This Organisation should therefore encourage religions to make this important contribution on their own terms: that is, religions are called to create, support and promote the precondition of every encounter, every dialogue, and of every understanding of pluralism and cultural difference. That precondition, Mr President, is the dignity of the human person."

Now read this carefully, 'anonymous'.

"on their own terms"
NOT "on the UN"s terms"

So anonymous, is understanding "pluralism and cultural difference" synonymous with supporting every initiated UN interfaith plan, or do you reach conclusions and then seek evidence.

I am tempted to think you are a plant but more probably you sre sincerely expanding upon a false premise. That is as unfortunate as those sincere suicide bombers who actually believe they are fulfilling the Almighty's wishes.

If you sincerely wish to add to the value of this weblog follow more closely the leads provided by people such as Rich in Medford rather than cause distractions.

Greg (Australia)
I think Crabby Old Uncle Earl might be Tex Marrs.
In case anyone missed it... Constance's latest interview on Radio Liberty is now available.

Real Audio Stream

MP3 Download (Right click and then "Save Target As...")

God Bless all and Merry CHRISTmas!
I confess have my own serious questions about the current state of the Vatican and at least United Religions, if not AOC. What Lee Penn said about the new Cardinal Levada who formerly was Bishop of San Francisco is IMPORTANT. Levada had the United Religions people participate in his "consistory" (installation) -- a Vatican first on interreligious groups, per the URI site. A truly disturbing scenario: Levada becoming pope after Benedict XVI (Ratzinger) !!!???
Rich, they have put out so many variations on a theme about the origins of AOC, one hardly knows what to believe -- EXCEPT, I currently believe Solana was behind them and the Barcelona Process was underlying all. They need a conference to get their many stories straight!
Thanks, Jason.
All should pay attention to Constance's comment about Cardinal Levada.

1. He does support the United Religions, and has for years; see pp. 161-165 of my book "False Dawn " as evidence.

2. Levada has been hip-deep in the coverup scandal of clerical sex predators. My article about him is here:

With Levada's history, it's very disturbing that Benedict XVI's first major decision was to select Levada as the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. They have known each other for decades, so I believe that Ratzinger knew what he was doing.

Kyrie eleison.

I read Lee Penn's piece on Levada. He has written well and accurately. But his piece doesn't take into account the much wider issue.

Sin has been redefined as what the government and cultural change organizations says it is. Churches and synagogues no longer have a say in the matter and here the Catholic church is caught in between the old morality and the new one. Religion has become an arm of the government, not its overseer.

Government decides what is moral now on the basis of what NGOs have told political leaders is for the good of the community. Think I'm wrong? Well look at this Deanna Spingola column on what was in the planning works in 1969.

Just the other day I saw a news article on how gay marriages are big business now. I can't find the article, but did find some references to how we as the public view these things. The article seems to have vanished.

Bridal magazine promotes homosexual weddings
Move follows N.Y. Times' inclusion of same-sex ceremony notices
osted: July 28, 2003
5:00 p.m. Eastern
© 2003

The AOC report will take this trend even further. It will put clamps on a religious organization's attempt to retain some hold on decisions regarding morality. Parents who attempt to teach a religion's morality to children will be counteracted by the government teachers.

The Catholic church was infiltrated a long time ago. Clergy were caught between the government's new teachings and the church's older teachings. They lived the newer teachings.

Ah, but you say, pedophilia is not homosexuality. When sin has been redefined and one doesn't know where the new standards come from, who can tell anyone else what sin is. Sin is whatever the speaker says it is or isn't.

Spingola has written very informative columns on the changes taking place, particularly one where she states clearly which religious right organizations are working for government goals.

Constance I am glad you have serious questions about the Vatican and are thinking about some of the things that have been posted here. I have always respected Lee Penn for his willingness to examine the evidence. I hope you are willing to think about the things I have shown you here.

Remember the Catholic people are the VICTIMS of false leadership. And I do not point only to them but even the Christian church as whole as well, the mainline churches, as well as Baptist/evangelical/Christian church in general too are being led down the antichrist interfaith highway.

Rick Warren's P.E.A.C.E. plan matches almost point to point with the UN's Millennium goals. I believe one researcher who has covered these things that both you and Lee Penn should read is Berit Kjos, especially regarding the UN, the interfaith movement and more.

Lee Penn is very correct to be concerned about the hiring of Levada. I think this is more then proof that the Vatican is run by hirelings. I am an ex-Catholic and when I realized that ramifications of their false teachings and interfaithism, and read and studied the Bible, I left. I also will not be under a Christian leader, or church that is joined with this plan whatsoever, that includes churches involved with Purpose Driven Life or that preach interfaithism. Bible Prophecy is real and coming true right before us. These false leaders are prepping for the antichrist's deceptions. Interfaithism and its false peace is not the peace of Jesus Christ. One world government and one world religion is here NOW, and being strengthened.

A person's first loyalty should be to Jesus Christ, and given that He warned us of false leaders, those instructions and warnings should be followed.

What better plan for the antichrist then a church such as Rome, that teaches you must follow false leaders no matter what they do?

Mat 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

"Beware" does not mean follow them, and this applies to the Baptist, Christian, evangelical hirelings like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Emergent church and other leaders.

Lee, the rot goes right to the top, as proven by the appointment of Levada. Realize too as I have told others here, that the idea you must remain under the tutelage of false leaders is wrong.

One more group you should study in depth is WCRP with it's Vatican involvement.
Of course, we know the Protestants have NEVER had FALSE LEADERSHIP, such as:

1) JIMMY SWAGGART turning in Jim Bakker for sexual immorality when he was guilty of the same and worse;

2) TED HAGGARD head of the National Association of Evangelicals

3) THE UNITED METHODIST CHURCH preaching against "intelligent design" (flawed as the Catholics may be, Pope BPII went out of his way to repudiate Catholics (Msgr. Pouphard et al)preaching against it;

4) Chuck Colson accepting the Templeton Award at a World Parliament of Religions doing;

5) Billy Graham's daughter participating in a similar New World Religion event in New York

6) Everything from Richard Foster

7) Everything from Eugene Peterson

8) DOUG COE and the FELLOWSHIP FOUNDATION along with folks from Denver Seminary, Dallas Seminary, etc., etc., having "the latest in a series of ongoing meetings" between prominent evangelicals and NEW AGE LEADERS. For the record, this is the much ballyhooed Prayer Breakfast Network;

I suggest that maybe the Catholics are not as monolithic as people think -- neither are the Evangelicals.

For the record:

I do not believe Catholics go to hell for taking John Chapter 6 literally;

I believe we are saved by Jesus Christ, not an organization.

I remind our commentator who seems to forget where he got his original information to allow him to comment that as Paul says, "we all see through glass darkly" and "anything not done in faith is sin to you."

If you don't like that, take it up with the Apostle Paul.

I could say so much more, including but not limited to Dave Hunt's obvious adoption of occult symbolism and promotion of original Theosophical theories of the "third initiation," Christ being born in the cave of our hearts, while simultaneously blasting Catholics to hell who conscientiously and literally believe a portion of scripture of "you must eat my flesh and drink my blood."

Time and event will tell who eventually is right and I for one am ecstatic that it is God doing the judging and not our mutual correspondents on this board. Am I concerned about Cardinal Levada and URI? You bet I am. There is a whole lot you don't know and maybe you might consider being man (or woman, if that's what you are) to pick up the phone and talk to me personally about it. Maybe you did buy a used car from Dave Hunt. I for one would not based on our past dealings.
Or maybe you bought the used car from Gary Kah. I have much to tell about that as well!
Protestant churches have been the ones most apt to join up with the Purpose Driven stuff in an attempt to bring in more members, including the United Methodists. Despite protests from older members once a church goes the route of these church growth models it keeps going on the wrong path. This just means all denominations, not just Catholics, have been guilty of following after these false ideals.
Oh, and lest we forget:


Matthew Fox (now excommunicated and an Episcopalian apostate, whoops, priest)
Thomas Berry
Basil Pennington
Bro. David Steindl-Rast
Rosemary Ruether


1) Tim LaHaye and Beverly LaHaye
- Severely compromised themselves by working with Rev. Moon, "the Lord of the Second Advent," "King of the Universe.

2) Jerry Falwell (ditto and even more blatant and less apologetic about working with Rev. Moon)

3) Pat Robertson who claims
a) He was chose by God to usher in the coming of his son
b) Endorsed Jeremy Rifkin's New Age agenda;
c) Gave a platform to World Future Society leadership and cognates, including but not limited to Jay Gary, Clement Bezold, and Ted Peters (one of the most notorious purveyors of New Age disinformation ever to darken Evangelical doors). Ted Peters has come dangerously close to praising earth worship as a positive element of the New Age we can emulate.

At least the Catholics, for whatever motive, admitted they had a problem and purged at least elements of it from their midst. There was a virtual evangelical INDUSTRY set up to fight me and to this day those players have not admitted it -- I, and not the New Age Movement, was the "enemy." The only one giving me even faint praises was LaHaye and I rather suspect that is because the co-author, Ed Hines, of the book "The Agony of Seduction" wrote it and LaHaye never read it.

Hopefully I am wrong. There is always room for repentance.


Very interesting story at Newsmax showing how the Democrats are hiring evangelical outreach artists to get the religious vote. Clinton, Obama, Kerry are all mentioned.

That is not to say I'm not grateful for the contributions of the one Dorothy has sometimes humorous called "crabby Old Uncle Earl". I am. I am especially grateful today for recalling my attention to something I looked at before it was quite as well developed as it is now -- WCRP, which incidentally is a provable link with all of this, the Club of Rome (Prince Hassan is the WCRP moderator) and Dr. Solana!
Constance (and, by extension, everyone else on the board) - I, too, am glad it is Our Lord doing the judging and not any human being. He has personally been convicting me of a great deal of sin in my life over the past few months, and "cleaning up my act" has taken priority over research. This is neither the time nor the place for me to go into detail. Suffice it to say that I'm in no position to judge Crabby Old Uncle Earl or anyone else posting to this board. May God ultimately have mercy on us all.
Correction on my foaming at the keyboard, the Pope who in no uncertain terms upheld intelligent design, taking the podium himself to instruct cardinals and bishops was Pope Benedict XVI, better known to me for years as "Cardinal Ratzinger."
I to have been under serious conviction where my time has shifted to reading the word of God verses hours of never ending reserch. I like the research to use to tell people the signs of the times but when you only have a little time to spend, I would rather talk about Jesus. At least plant the sead. These last couple of years has been a serious clean up of the things that never even crossed my mind in the past. I hope He continues because I sure don't want to screw up on Luke 21:36.

I loved your comment Robin.

I too for one am hardly in a position to throw stones at anyone. Have a happy new year!

Robin, there's another way to look at it, one I learned about many years ago from someone who was doing very good work on exposing the sex education curricula in public schools. She said that whenever she was about to do some good with her work, something popped up to cause her trouble. It might have been car trouble, or family trouble, or something breaking down in the house. Always a stumbling block which could have stopped her. She had to persevere through the difficulty and not let it stop her.

As Connie has written, the start of her search into New Age began when her husband lost his legs in an automobile accident caused by a person who just bought a junker. That led her into religious bookstores where she first started noticing the political agenda.

I had faced major difficulties with the Shawnee Mission School District in Kansas, difficulties which almost led to a nervous breakdown. Working thru the difficulties I started to learn from others what was really happening in the country.

This is a story that repeats and repeats with many others I've encountered. Why I'd rather not speculate. I don't know whether you are going to do something very important publicly or privately, but I would say that is the reason you are going thru the hardships now. You are probably being hardened for some kind of coming battle.

Oh yes, one more thing. There was a minister who wrote in one of his newsletters that we are all learning lessons at harder and harder levels. Those at the kindergarten level enjoy a rather easy life. Just as those at the university level have to work hard to achieve their goals, so do those learning in another area. God knows at which level we are being tested.


I AGREE with you about the FALSE PROTESTANT leadership!

and what do they all hold in common with rare exceptions?

Either TOTAL INVOLVEMENT in the ecumenical interfaith movement with Rome, or down the path of false Dominionism.

All joining with the BEAST in support of the one world government, one world religion and both. Remember Satan doesnt have just one path way to lead the deceived along.

I dont mind if you point out endless charlatans in the Christian/Prot camp: I do this all the time elsewhere. Prots and Christians need warned about the deceivers on their side!
So what is wrong with exposing the deception in the Vatican side of things?
I have noticed this seems to upset a few folks here? Why the Vatican blind spot? especially in a blog run by a Baptist?

The problem with the Catholic church however and with Catholics is that a main part of Catholic teaching, tells Catholics they must OBEY their MAGISTERIUM. Being a Catholic is definitely intertwined with believing that the Pope, Cardinals and bishops are successors to the apostles and that their authority is not to be questioned. You see this on this board here, where people are outraged that anyone would dare tell the truth about activities and speeches of the Vatican. Some Trad Catholics and others are the exception to this rule, but overall, Catholics have been trained to defend their leadership no matter what it does. They are taught because their religion is sacrament based, that these men are indirectly their path way to heaven. After all it is these men who determines who "receives" the sacraments. Their belief is that Gods grace is channeled via them and their rituals.

There are many ex-Catholics like myself who have learned that they are not true leaders and they do teach things that are not in Gods Word or totally contrary to it.

However this does not mean that a Chrsitian is to only test the Catholic leadership by Gods Word but ALL Christian pastors and leaders. So when I heard an indpt Baptist preacher skewing Psalm 115 to tell his church, "Touch not the Lord's Anoninted" Ie: Do NOT question or test my authority...I knew he was a false preacher, the apostles themselves called the Bereans NOBLE for testing what they taught against scripture.

The sad thing is too many simply do not know what God's Word teaches and they are stumbling in the dark.

Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

The problem with John 6 and the Catholic translation of it, is that the doctrine of Transubstantiation teaches "another Christ". This warned of in scripture. Here too deception even in the Protestant and evangelical camp is tied in especially via the Emergent Church movement where more and more they are teaching a false Eucharistic christ.

If one believes they "recieve" Jesus Christ via weekly fill-ups putting them in bondage to men via a sacramental system, this is far different then believing one receives Jesus Christ via FAITH, with the Holy Spirit indwelling.

I believe that most Catholics out in the world are good people who seek after God, but they are not being given the truth but a false religious system. I am an EX-Catholic after all. I remember what I was taught, and then later what I learned that Gods Word taught and how they contradicted. This is true of course of all the other false gospels being given by deceivers to Protestants and others. The gospel of Joel Osteen and of the Word of Faithers, is not the true gospel either.

Here are more points to you Constance.

1. Seeing through a glass darkly, is not a carte blanche verse to say that truth is unknowable or that Gods will is not known. Many false preachers will use this verse to tell people who distrust their message..."Well you can't understand everything..."
This is one reason the Emergent church speaks in such riddles and Rome constantly tells Catholics and others when they point out.."That makes no sense"...but "it is a mystery"....

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them

2. No one wants to "blast" Catholics to hell. I was raised a Catholic, went to Catholic schools, and care about and love many Catholic people. I want them to know the truth. I am glad a Christian taught me the true gospel, and many other ex-Catholic Christians have their testimonies as well, including the thousands in Latin America who are "coming out of her". Anyone who cares enough to warn Catholics does NOT want them to go to hell. In fact one reason I warn constantly of the interfaith movement is I know it is going to lead millions {Catholics, Prots and those in false religions} to embrace the antichrist.

Love for others is wanting them to know the truth. The do not judge message is abused. God has given us the truth in His Word. Jesus Christ has told us

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3. I have studied Dave Hunt, I do not put total trust in any man and certainly do not agree with him on everything, but I double and tripled checked many of his claims about the Catholic church especially regarding the interfaith movement, and there is plenty of information online even right on the Vatican website, using advance search, to read for oneself all of the Pope's speeches, claims, trips and activities. This is true of Gary Kah as well. Take each claim, did the Pope really say that? Does involvement with that interfaith group really exsist?, it is easy to CHECK IT OUT!

I am glad you are concerned about Levada and the URI...
so KNOWING that Benedict PICKED HIM as HIS SECOND HAND MAN, having to know much of what he was into, certainly you are now asking questions like Lee Penn.

So the Vatican kicked out a few liberal New Age extremists? Often times if you will examine these cases, you will discover that the said liberal unlike the other Zen Buddhist monks and Teilhard wannabes, crossed the line of questioning Vatican authority. This was the mistake Hans Kung made. With the fact that there are now dozens of Zen Buddhist monks, Hindu-morphing Catholic priests and Rekki practicing nuns and convents, the fact they have made an "example" out of one or two doesnt mean much. Nothing was ever done about those Hindu worshipping priest at the Fatima altar.

I will write more on WCRP on another entry here, since this is getting long. {glad you are looking at that}
Crabby Old Uncle Earl,
We know a lot about what you don't like. You keep hidden what you are involved with. What are you hiding? You talk and talk and talk just like some old people who want to talk only about what oatmeal sold for 50 years ago. Sorry, I don't buy the line that you are living in a cave, by yourself, reading no one's words except your own. My guess is that if you heard people condemn the Catholic church, you would have the next step ready for them to take. You just don't want to tip your hand too soon.

Ok WCRP...


Some facts about WCRP:

1. It was founded by Unitarians.

"WCRP was formed out of a Unitarian organization called International Association for Religious Freedom.

The UU [Unitarian Universalist] church is a micro-cosm church of the NWO, it is liberal, and Theosophical and New Age to the core. Remember how Constance here warns about the GREAT INVOCATION? The GREAT INVOCATION is said at the part of many UU services. UU services are basically interfaith pow-wows, incorporating the aspects of many religions at once. The Humanist movement is also a part of the UU church.

"One outgrowth of this, he said, was the founding of the World Conference on Religion and Peace, led by key members of the IARF council, including Unitarian Universalists Rev. Dana McLean Greeley and Rev. Homer Jack. Today, the IARF and the WCRP work together in a collegial relationship."

Ok I have established the founding of this group..

Ok things get even more interesting...


Remember the Interfaith pow-wow at Fatima, where the Hindu priests got to do their thing at the altars?

"The mentioned September 20 Portugal News article clearly stated that the interfaith conference at Fatima on October 10-12, 2002 would be held “under the auspices of the World Conference on Religion and Peace.”


Papal Message to World Conference on Religion and Peace

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 29, 2000 ( Religion "is not, and must not become, a pretext for hostility," John Paul II said in a message sent for the 30th birthday of the World Conference on Religion and Peace.,

The celebrations were held in Tokyo on Monday and Tuesday. In the message, sent to Cardinal Peter Seiichi Shirayanagi, the Holy Father praised the efforts of the WCRP "in building a world peace."

WCRP is a worldwide interreligious forum, which works to resolve situations and issues that endanger world peace and human dignity. Recognized by the United Nations as a nongovernmental organization, the conference is present in more than 60 countries. Its co-presidents include Cardinal William Keeler, archbishop of Baltimore, Maryland; Chiara Lubich, founder of the Focolare Movement; and the president of Indonesia.

Present Popes and constituent's involvement:

Plenty of Catholic leaders involved..

This is just one of many NGO UN interfaith groups that the Vatican supports and has involvement with.
Its co-presidents include Cardinal William Keeler,

Forgot to bold that from above..

So UU founded organization with New Age interfaith goals, and a Catholic Cardinal is one of its co-presidents?

He's number 15 on the list.
The world is full of ecumenical organizations.
World Council of Churches
National Council of Churches

In fact here's a list of chuches that promote ecumenicism.

Are you opposed to all of these organizations and chuches?

Crabby Old Uncle Earl,

Dorothy has a point, in a way. What - or who - are you involved with? You have at least World Wide Web access. Therefore, you are not totally isolated from the world. Surely you take the words of the New Testament, commanding us not to forsake fellowship with each other, seriously. Who is your shepherd? Do you have one? Do you gather with likeminded believers in Christ weekly? Just where do you come up with your ideas on Christianity?
Oh yes, I forgot this quote used in a Spignola column:
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly... it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”— Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister.

To David In Battle Creek,

This weekend on Meet the Press, Russert interviewed both Rick Warren and editor of NEWSWEEK John Meacham. Read transcript here:

It sounded to me like a sales pitch for the Alliance of Civilizations. Although Rick Warren did not say anything that promoted the Alliance, it’s what he didn’t say that troubles me. He appeared to be in complete agreement with Meacham. Perhaps I’m wrong, but in a very short time period we shall see.

Below are some quotes by Meacham and how I view them as being compatible with the AoC’s plan.

Meacham: “So when you have both the right active and thinking that they’re losing and the left active and thinking that they’re losing, that creates an atmosphere and a recipe for extremism.”

AoC objective: “to bridge the gap between cultural divides and to counter extremism.”

Meacham: “So we should understand that we’re called to do good, we’re called to live our lives, but we don’t have a monopoly on truth. And so we have to watch the proselytization that, that can be a byproduct of the wonderful work Rick is talking about.”

AoC objective: “to counter the influence of those who feed on exclusion and claim sole ownership of the truth.”

Meacham: “…so they wanted to do everything they could to make the world better as they moved forward. And they did that not by banning religion, not by denouncing it, but by trying to manage it and marshal it. And I think that’s what we’re called to do.”

AoC objective: “…religions and the institutions that represent them cannot be banned from the public sphere but must be brought in under the leadership of the international civil bodies…”

I’m interested in hearing others’ comments on this.

Some of you seem desperate to deflect the information I am putting up about the Vatican. I suppose that utter desperation is where the Nazi comparison comes in. Webwide that is called Godwin's law...

"There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress."'s_law

But I'll over look the constant desire to deflect and ad hominen's and discuss somethings related to the Nazi's....

That is an interesting one since THEN too the CHURCHES of GERMANY were deceived and joined hands with Hitler and pals in support. Sure there were individuals who refused, but there is a lot of parallels in the history today, where conformity to state and church hierarchies is put above God's will even by "well meaning" 'Christians'--Hitler as a test run for the antichrist. Course the antichrist is going to make Hitler look like a candy-stripper, imagine a Hitler with today's technology and RFID chips.

Dominionism is rife in all these UN "save the world", reconstructionist" interfaith agendas from the Vatican to Rick Warren's P.E.A.C.E. plan.

I am not surprised that the interfaith supporters and lovers and apologists of the Vatican here support the WCC. After all the WCC is one of the biggest organizations that help promote every false agenda out there, including the NEW AGE liberal mainline denominations that advance homosexuality and more.

I wonder what Lee Penn's reaction to this will be when he returns given that in his book False Dawn he posted AGAINST it.

Any of you ever see what United Church of Christ is up to lately?

No, I will not join a church that is part of the ecumenical/interfaith movement and that includes WCC membership.

There are many Christians who find churches who are not part of this association and there are a pastors who preach and warn against the interfaith and ecumenical movement who are out there though they are fewer and fewer in number.

But that is prophesized too.

Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Anonymous 9:00 - I'm assuming from the tone of your post that you are Crabby Old Uncle Earl. Quite frankly, given the content of your recent posts, you resemble strongly some people I've met both in my Christian walk and in the secular realm - people who are convinced they're right even when they're wrong. There's just no talking to people like that. We Christians walk a fine line. On the one hand, there is the Christian concept of truth - that only through Christ is there salvation. On the other hand, we all have to be held accountable to someone, and it sounds as if you are so bound and determined to be right at all costs that you want to be accountable to nobody - to fellowship with nobody - because you're so afraid of being infected with (to use your term) interfaithism. Human beings are social creatures; we were made by God for fellowship one with another. Believe me, I've been grateful for the accountability to which other believers in Christ hold me, painful as it is at times. Don't be so afraid of having your mind changed that you become isolated from the rest of the Body of Christ. I've found that that's the surest way to open the door to the New Age movement in your life. If you're isolated from other believers, you don't know any better when someone feeds you an incorrect Bible interpretation and you're more likely to swallow it hook, line and sinker.
According to a pro-Fatima magazine, Pope Benedict XVI recently removed the Bishop of Fatima for allowing the occult activity.

A concerned watching Catholic
Sonny, I was writing and warning against the interfaith movement since discovering disturbing aspects of it in 1981 -- and my worst opposition, sorry to say, was Evangelical, not Catholic!
There are many Christians who stand against interfaithism who have no lack of Christian fellowship in their lives. In fact for Bible Christians, Christian fellowship is one of the most precious things in their lives. Other Christians with the Holy Spirit truly are your brothers and sisters.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

However true Christian fellowship differs from the message of the WORLD, that says CONFORM, join with the crowd. Join the interfaith movement, youre a hater, youre a bigot ad nauseaum...

Basically your conjecture is that someone should sell out their principles to join with the crowd.

Sounds just like what Satan would tell people to join with the antichrist.


Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Bishop Serafim de Sousa Ferreira e Silva retired reaching the age of 75.

Shrine Rector Guerra's position is intact.
*******Sonny, I was writing and warning against the interfaith movement since discovering disturbing aspects of it in 1981 -- and my worst opposition, sorry to say, was Evangelical, not Catholic!*******

I havent denied that the interfaith movement is strong in evangelical circles....nor that deception is rife.

I really do not know what point you are trying to make except for giving me excuses for ignoring the endless evidence that points to the Vatican's involvement in NEW AGE interfaithism.

Why wouldnt you want to warn about BOTH?

I am surprised I did not get an answer regarding my post regarding the Unitarian Universalist Association and its founding and involvement in WCRP and the Papal and Catholic Cardinal support for this organization.
Anonymous 10:11 - I'm going to assume that you are also Anonymous 9:00. I replied the way I did because the brothers and sisters in Christ I've known who feel as strongly as you do about interfaithism are the very ones who are the most isolated from Christian fellowship, and who just have very skewed concepts of Christianity. Basically, these are people who go only by their own interpretations of the Bible. Tell them they're wrong - even in the most gentle, loving and respectful fashion - and they react the exact same way you do. For them, it's either going it entirely alone or joining the interfaith movement, no fellowship at all, no opportunity for charitable Christian correction. One wonders what people like that do on Sunday mornings, if no fellowship is suitable because it's been infected by the interfaithism you describe.
Here's my biggest issue with Rick Warren. I have not read any where in his books what role the Holy Spirit plays in his Purpose Driven stuff. I've been through two 40 Day campaigns and still did not find the Holy Spirit. Who cares if you know your purpose? It doesn't mean anything unless you are led by the Holy Spirit.

I can certainly see Rick Warren coming together with AoC. The goals are so similar. Rick Warren believes that Christians are called to be world class Christians. I always thought Jesus taught us that we are in the world, but not of the world. Rick Warren stated this world class Christian belief in his mega-blockbuster book, "The Purpose Driven Life."

Rich in Medford, much of what Rick Warren said in that interview are re-hashed ideas. Most of what RW says sits in my stomach like a Big Mac from McDonalds'. There just isn't much nutritional value and a whole lot of trans fat.
No, Old Uncle Earl, the quote from Goebbels was because you are using that technique, and at least I recognize it.

Anyone who liked the Church League material knows that the WCC and the NCC were communist front activities and probably still are. Read international socialism even now. The list was to give you the opportunity to focus on many other groups.

But all in all the problem really isn't ecumenicism. The problem is that morality based on the Bible has been picked up and tossed in the wastebasket in favor of social programs and acceptable body habits.

There is a group,, Independent Fundamental Churches of America, that opposes ecumenical efforts. Looking over their website, they are not nearly as radical as you are. In fact they use Chuck Colson material.

There's another little trick manipulators use. They try to turn people working together against each other.

Frankly rather than think unpleasant thought about your methods, I would rather just see you as Crabby Old Uncle Earl.

By the way, the information about UU is not not news and isn't totally accurate. The International Association for Religiouis Freedom was founded in 1900. It appears to be rather defunct in that the last major publications seem to have ended in 2003, the last solo conference was in 2002 and what they have is newsletters and a council. While the organization may have been founded to allow the Eastern religions freedom to expand, the organization did serve to call attention to the lack of religious freedom around the world.

I would have thought you would like the Catholic group Tradition in Action. They are very critical of activity in the Catholic church.

The difference between real research and throwing around buzz words is understanding that the world is very complex. It's not enough to say New Age is bad. You have to know what New Age is and explain why it is bad.

And, by the way, large operations such as the Catholic church will have representatives involved in change agent groups to watch what is happening as they recognize that these groups will impact on their own activity. This is the same principle by which the FBI infiltrates terrorist and militia groups. Watching from the outside doesn't provide the same kind of information.

Robin, there are plenty of Christians out there and even churches that have not sold out to the interfaith movement.

Is that your advice for when the antichrist is here? Join with the churches that have fallen under his deception, because it sure sounds like it.

I wonder why you would tell people that.

Are you a supporter of Lucis Trust, the Unitarian Univeralist Association, the WCRP?

Dorothy honestly what is your point?

Are you a supporter of the UU, the Communist WCC and these interfaith groups? Because it sure sounds like it.--OTHERWISE why give me such a hard time? You would be in agreement with me.

"The list was to give you the opportunity to focus on many other groups."

I already have pointed out other groups, several times in fact. But then I do not except honesty from you.

You seriously must be a supporter of the Lucis Trust if you have no qualms about ANY church being hooked or supporting an organization founded by the Unitarian Universalist Association.

I see NO LINE differiantiated between THEIR BELIEFS and YOURS.
Absolutely none whatsoever. You are a supporter of interfaithism. You believe religions should come together for "peace". You are upset that a Bible Christian would say that Jesus is the only way and that Catholicism teaches "another gospel" You have been against every post I have done making a stand against interfaithism. So far I havent seen any deviation from support of the LUCIS TRUST plan.

BTW I can tell and KNOW you are here to DEFLECT and DECEIVE ON PURPOSE.

Your information regarding the IARF is willfully inaccurate too.

Defunct organizations do not continue to put out newsletters. Anyhow WCRP was founded OUT of this group, that point has already BEEN MADE!

I have already admitted there are Trad Catholics, who are not fooled by the antichrist interfaith movement within the Vatican. In fact while these folks remain in error believing Catholicism is the one true church at least they have enough truth to realize the first commandment has been thrown away by the Pope and his men. The majority are villified. I suppose if one showed up on this blog, despite their Catholic beliefs, because this is a pro-interfaith board, they would be encountering as difficult a time as me.

As for your claims I am a manipulator, given that your posts are such a mishmash, make no sense and make your position extremely unclear...{you come across as a supporter of all these groups including the WCRP}, that must be projection on your part.

And honestly what is this? This is another example of when you just seem to be coming up with crazy stuff to justify your positions...

"And, by the way, large operations such as the Catholic church will have representatives involved in change agent groups to watch what is happening as they recognize that these groups will impact on their own activity. This is the same principle by which the FBI infiltrates terrorist and militia groups. Watching from the outside doesn't provide the same kind of information."

So there are Catholic CARDINALS [public well known figures and TOP officials] INFILTRATING change groups.

You have got to be kidding me.

That is what I am talking about when I say your posts make absolutely no sense. The very idea that Catholic CARDINALS would be in these groups simply to "watch" them is NONSENSE.

You got an excuse for everything the Vatican does to the point of absolute absurdity.

Christians are not supposed to yoke with groups that preach interfaithism and things that are wrong.

I suppose these Catholic Cardinals and you, and others here do not believe this Bible verse.

2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
"Sonny, I was writing and warning against the interfaith movement since discovering disturbing aspects of it in 1981 -- and my worst opposition, sorry to say, was Evangelical, not Catholic!"


From what I have seen here, I see constant DEFENSE of the interfaith movement from BOTH YOU AND YOUR SUPPORTERS.

In fact if you DISAGREED with the interfaith movement in all of its GUISES, I would be welcomed here instead of villified by your supporters.

You cant say that you are against the interfaith movement when it comes to evangelicals and then defend it when it comes to the Vatican.

The views here are VERY INCONSISTENT.

I bet any reader coming here, will read what I have posted, about the WCRP, LUCIS TRUST, and Vatican involvement and ask themselves what is the deal with the negative reaction show to this poster?

So what I want to know is...

if you are truly AGAINST the interfaith movement.

Why do you and your supporters defend Vatican and Catholic involvement in interfaith groups like WCRP? A group that was UU founded.

This is what I am talking about when it comes to inconsistency here.

You and your supporters are all over the map. Either you are against the coming antichrist one world religion or you have joined with it.
WCRP...UU founded.

WCRP linked to the Temple of Understanding and Lucis Trust..

SUPPORTED [not merely WATCHED] PRAISED AND PROMOTED by Catholic Cardinals.

"- H. Em. Card. Peter Seiichi SHIRAYANAGI, Archbishop of Tokyo

"Foreignness is one thing which characterizes all the local Churches in Asia. The main reason why Christianity has been viewed as alien is because the local Churches in the countries of Asia have, by and large, kept themselves aloof from the mainstream of the life of the people, their history, struggles and dreams. They have failed to identify themselves with the people. It is against this background that we should understand and appreciate the orientation of the Federation of Asian Bishops' Conference (FABC).

If we were to summarize the orientation of the FABC in one word it is DIALOGUE.

I would like to stress the importance of interreligious dialogue in our attempts to address issues of justice and peace in our world.

I believe that people of every religion in every continent expect the major religions to cooperate in the search for the peaceful solution to violent conflict, and in the creation of a more just, equitable and tolerant society.

In the past 30 years, I have been personally involved in a global interreligious cooperation movement called "WCRP", the "World Conference on Religion and Peace", which has been dedicated to promoting cooperation among the world's religions for peace, while maintaining respect for the authentic beliefs of each religion.

In recent years, the WCRP has been privileged to assist the major religious leaders of Bosnia-Herzegovina in forming their country's first multireligious body, "the Interreligious Council" and in their efforts to promote peace. This is a concrete example of how dialogue of action can shed a beam of hope across a world darkened by the pain of division.

Yet, dialogue of action, if it is to be truly effective, must be nourished by every other form of dialogue - dialogue of theological discourse, dialogue of religious experience, dialogue of life. Only then will religion touch deeply the lives of people, answer their deepest needs and thus fulfill its own true function.

It is for these reasons, then, that the Pontifical Council for Interreligious dialogue, and the WCRP are committed to close cooperation."

Cardinal Arinze who was considered papabile has been a frequent participant in WCRP events...

"My wife, Gwen, attended a pre-Assembly gathering of women religious leaders and was one of the respondents to an address by Cardinal Arinze of Nigeria, who is often said to be a likely successor to Pope John Paul II. The Rev. Olivia Holmes, Director-designate of International Relations for the UUA, also attended, as did Julia Esquivel, the Guatemalan poet and liberation theologian who has declared herself to be a Unitarian Universalist. Rob Cavenaugh, the very capable young Legislative Director of the UUA's Washington Office, attended the pre-Assembly Young Adult gathering. WCRP rules require that at least 35% of all delegates be women and at least 15% young adults."

Heres a picture....

This group has even MET at the Vatican...for its SIXTH annual...

"Based on its nature as an action-oriented organization, the WCRP established six commissions in the fields of Conflict Transformation and Reconciliation; Human Rights and Responsibilities; the Child and the Family; Development and Ecology; Disarmament and Security; and Peace Education at its sixth assembly held at the Vatican and Riva de Garda, Italy in November 1994."

Expose the interfaith movement all you want from the evangelical side, Constance... but the Catholic side needs to be dealt with honestly as well....

You have expressed reservations about this group....what do you think of the Vatican involvement going to the higher echelons Constance?
Connie's information does get around.

An interesting series of videos relating to the AOC. I would really like to see the parts not presented by the Sufi organization.

And here is a very quick summary of the EU history for those who have had difficulty following the gigantic amount of detail. Attribution would have been nice, but as Connie has said, if the message gets out, that's what is important.

Just a few items I picked up when I got up.

Earl, as I said early on, you just want to monopolize the conversation here. You do love the sound of your own voice, and until you cause the trouble you are looking for here, you won't be happy.

How is your message different than that of the Islamic terrorists and the occultists? You want your one idea to conquer all other ideas on demand. Until it does, you will be violently verbal. You have no patience. You want it all NOW!

Dialogue with full conviction of one's beliefs and understanding of the views of the other does not lead to a full scale war between the parties until one wins. It does not lead to a blending of the two ways. It can mean I'm not going to change my beliefs in any way, so don't stand in my way. As long as your beliefs do not mean you will hit my nose unless I go along, we can both live where we choose on common ground. That's what most of the people involved with ecumenical movements believe.

Then there are the ones with their own agendas. To covert everyone else by stealth or open hostility. Do you think we don't have the brains to see what is going on? That you have to teach us?

Dorothy what is wrong with a Christian, standing up for the Christian truth?

Another question I have for you, is what religion are you?

Are you a non-Christian?

You seem very offended that someone would believe the Christian gospel is TRUE compared to other religions.
This does not mean I "hate" people in other religions. I am a Christian convert myself, I was in the same place as any non-Christian MYSELF.

BTW I am deeply familiar with Unitarian Universalism, I know they believe that all religions lead to god, or an archetype of God. I am not a supporter of universalism. Universalism at its core is NEW AGE, after all the Theosophists have taught UNITy of all things including religions.

No true Christian condones violence whatsoever.

I do not understand where you and your friend Constance are coming from...

First of all she has this blog where she exposes the New Age movement which includes this interfaith organization AOC...and seems to make it clear she is against its agendas and plans...

I actually agree with much of what she says concerning this organization!

But why defend other interfaith organizations WITH THE SAME PLAN and Vatican involvement in them?

Why even be upset with me? I do not condone violence, I want the gospel preached to the world and the Great Commission is mandated in scripture.
This is not hatred of those in other religions but desire that they know the true gospel of Jesus Christ. If a Christian has a non-Christian friend shouldnt they tell them about Jesus? I have admitted the evangelical side has endless deceptions and involvement in the New Age and interfaith agreeing with even points made about Rick Warren and others here. I wouldnt mind a discussion with Constance about Evangelical Dominionism and my stand against that.

I do not understand why you and Constance seem to be against interfaithism when it comes to some organizations and not for others. What is all that about? It is VERY confusing. What is a new reader to this board to make of this?

" You want your one idea to conquer all other ideas on demand. "

Honestly here you are right.

My ONE idea being the CHRISTIAN gospel.

If you do not believe the Christian gospel is TRUE...then definitely we are on a different page.

However it is interesting that the very fact I am an exclusive Christian rather then an pluralist one, makes you so angry.

I cant change my beliefs to please you or your friends. I believe Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY. I have had experience before in that angering people. That really cant be help. Even scripture warns that there will be those that consider Jesus Christ a "rock of offence".

So much of the interfaith pluralist world, worries far more about offending the non-believer then actually preaching the gospel. I am glad when I was a non-believer that a Christian street preacher dared to 'offend me" and asked me if I knew I was going to heaven and told me how to be saved in Jesus Christ.

That alone has earned me your ire. Which has been confusing as well. Constance claims to be a Baptist, surely she has encountered Christians who believe the way I do... Does she consider us the enemy? Does she consider anyone who rejects Catholicism as the enemy? There are many Christians who love Catholics who simply desire that they know Christ outside of the bondage of a false religious system. Would Constance consider witnessing to Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses who deny the divinity of Jesus Christ to be wrong as well?

I do not believe in "Conquering" in the carnal fashion, Ive already made it clear I do not condone violence, abhor Dominionism, dont you realize that those who seek to give all power to world government via these interfaith organizations do believe in CONQUERING? Imagine the power that the UN will have.

Here too I am confused as well...On one hand Constance points out would be antichrists like Solana, would use the UN apparatus for power, but on the other hand, because I am decrying the interfaithism and the organizations that are using the UN to form the one world religion, I am decried on this blog. Something is very wrong with that picture.

*******Dialogue with full conviction of one's beliefs and understanding of the views of the other does not lead to a full scale war between the parties until one wins.

I do not plan to WIN. In fact in this world, Bible Prophecy makes it clear us Christians are going to be on the losing end until Jesus Christ has His Second Coming.

I am here to try and warn people about interfaithism.

In fact I expected SUPPORT when I first came to this board. I am as anti-New Age as a person can be.

There are Catholics even like Lee Penn who while we disagree
about the RCC, are on the same page regarding the first commandment.
There are many Trad catholics that have expressed agreement with me regarding interfaithism. Lee Penn is very honest about Catholic involvement in the interfaith movement. This is to be commended.
He has been a willing listener with new evidence regarding Levada and more. I sure hope he comes back to see some of these recent discussions. I hope he will deal with some of the discrepancies I am encountering here as well.

" we can both live where we choose on common ground. That's what most of the people involved with ecumenical movements believe."

Heres the problem...

if the gospel is of offense to you...

if you believe exclusive Christianity that believes Christianity is the only way to heaven and the only truth...[not one among many] is of offense...

we cant share any common ground.

You perceive me as an enemy just based on those two viewpoints.

"Am I therefore your enemy because I tell you the truth?"

The constant claims that I support violence against others who do not believe the way I do are false and unfair. {BTW I do not support the NWO wars for profit in the Middle East} But sadly this reminds me too what New Agers always teach, that Bible Christians are a virus on the planet here to commit "violence" against others.

No Christian wishes to convert by stealth or hostility. They want to convert in love. The sad thing is so many against the gospel have colored Christians as all being violent and "haters" of those in false religions. Why would I hate those who are WHERE I WAS? Why would I hate those who are stumbling in spiritual blindness and false religions? Even today I make sure to pray to God to make sure I am not being deceived and to ask the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. As Ive already admitted there is plenty of deception and pitfalls in the evangelical and Christian world.

I am sorry if I come across too harshly....but there is a lot being said here, that really is confusing, and I sincerely do want you and Constance to make your positions more clear.
Dorothy is right in the aspect that you need to be patient. You post an over whelming amount of information that takes time to be reviewed. Most can only log on once a day and by the time we've read your information you've already followed up with the attitude that no one is listening and we must all be ecumenical. When I first logged on, I was pleased to see that you had softened your tone, but was discouraged to see how long that lasted. I would like to think that you are just very passionate about your ideas, but please give time for research and be patient.
Galations 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness,temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Earl you do add spice!
I just noticed your last post. I think you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph. Alot of what you say can be agreed with. It's the manner in which it's said. You come across as quite abrasive. The gospel can be offensive, but should always be spoken in love. Do you agree?
As the song goes, cry me a river Old Earl, with your self-pitying remarks. I don't intend to make myself any clearer to you. The more you write, the more I don't trust you. You don't believe in dialog because you believe that your monologues are more important than anything anyone else has to say. Lee Penn can speak for himself. Connie can speak for herself. You speak for yourself only, thank heavens.

Earl, you say "we can't share common ground." The truth is that in some ways, we already share common ground with other Christians. There are some things we might even hold in common with Jews and Muslims, but the attitudes of some separatists get in the way of discovering just what that common ground is. That attitude of separation goes way beyond believing that Jesus is the Savior of the world and that we have to accept Him as our Savior in order to get to heaven. I'm talking about people who won't even say hello to those who do not share that belief on the street without being pushy and abrasive, rather than loving. You seem to me to be someone who would rather be abrasive, feeling that being that way is the most loving thing in the world. It isn't. Such an attitude loses more converts than it gains. Such an attitude also feeds the New Age hatred of fundamentalists, whether you realize it or not. They see that attitude as proof that they're right.
" we must all be ecumenical."

Arent you ecumenical?

After all, the anger shown me is because I am NOT a pluralist ecumenical Christian.

If you do agree with me on some things, why NOT say so?

So far I have seen nothing but a long list of disagreements except in regards to Rick Warren.

*******I don't intend to make myself any clearer to you*****

Does this mean you wont answer my questions or explain the discrepancy in your disagreemnts with me? Oh well, perhaps Constance will and Lee Penn will as well.

I still wonder what religion are you Dorothy? You didnt answer that one? You do realize I am not the only Christian who is not a believer in ecumenism.

As for me being a seperatist, I have unity with any born again believers, regardless of denomination. I have visited many other churches, prayed with and had fellowship with Christians who are NOT members of my particular type of church. In fact the internet is also a place where this unity happens all the time!

There is true unity in Jesus Christ, however the unity preached by the world with its false peace calling Christians to join with false religions at the expense of truth is not that unity.

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

******* Such an attitude also feeds the New Age hatred of fundamentalists, whether you realize it or not. They see that attitude as proof that they're right********

What is your answer to that?

Water down the gospel to make the likes of Alice Bailey followers happy?

Tell the New Agers, you dont need Jesus Christ to be saved, "just be a good person?" and leave it at that?

When I was an unbeliever.., ecumenical Christians who believed witnessing to people and telling them the truth was "offensive", just patted me on the head, and said "That's nice, whatever works for you". I was left stumbling in utter spiritual darkness with out the light of the gospel and a relationship with Jesus Christ.

I am fortunate that I encountered some true Christians who prayed for me, told me the gospel and told me that without Jesus Christ I would be lost.

I've been on the other end of ecumenicism and universalism. I know it does not lead to truth only confusion.

If any religion will do, why even claim to be a Christian?

For all the talk of love in ecumenical and interfaith circles, and for all the talk of love here, being a Bible Christian who makes a stand for the gospel is sure way to earn disdain.

Is this how you feel about every Christian who rejects pluralism Dorothy?
Anon. 2:44

You do make a good argument for the use of a moderated message board. Are you making your way-too-lengthy comments here because you had your hand slapped at Herb Peters' site? This open-format is great, unless when someone abuses the priviledge. Your claims that Constance or Dorothy embrace interfaithism are erroneous. I haven't read anything of theirs that supports the Alliance of Civilizations. However, if your views are as strong as they are, maybe you should consider getting your own blog so we can read your comments without sustaining such eye strain. It's a free service and easy to do.
Old Earl,
No, I will not answer your questions. You have no right to answers just because you ask. You neither employ me nor are we related. Out of blogger courtesy I've engaged you in dialogue. I do not believe those who reach out to others should be ignored. I leave the dialogue now to others now.

I'm in agreement with David, anon 2:44. That's a really good board over there, where you will find actual discussion, rather than ad hominem attacks, such as you are facing.
Old Earl,
No, I will not answer your questions. You have no right to answers just because you ask. You neither employ me nor are we related. Out of blogger courtesy I've engaged you in dialogue. I do not believe those who reach out to others should be ignored. I leave the dialogue now to others now.

After having read David in Battle Creek's comments, I agree with him. Ordinarily, I'm all in favor of an unmoderated board myself, but I agree that neither Constance nor Dorothy embrace the type of interfaithism you describe. What you're really saying is that anyone who does not share your brand of Christianity is going to Hell in the proverbial handbasket, and that we are not free to disagree on particulars. That's why I've expressed concerns about whether you're fellowshipping with likeminded believers willing to confront you lovingly, rather than "going it alone" or associating only with people who agree with you perfectly (as opposed to those among the saved who might disagree on the aforementioned particulars).

By the way, I've shared my denominational affiliation in comments on other entries in this blog. I've done this out of choice, not because anyone forced me to. I do my best to attend church with likeminded believers weekly, unless illness prevents me from doing so, and I worry about people with no connection whatever to their brothers and sisters in faith.

You have ignored questions from the beginning to respond with only ad hominens.

But then there is nothing I can do about this, your agenda is to deflect and decieve, I gave you a chance for an honest discussion, and you basically turned it down.



********Your claims that Constance or Dorothy embrace interfaithism are erroneous.*******

How so?

There would be no debate here between I and them, if this was true.

I have drawn a line against interfaithism...

Both Dorothy and Constance have disagreed with it.


So Robin...

"but I agree that neither Constance nor Dorothy embrace the type of interfaithism you describe."


How is it different from the interfaithism of Lucis Trust and the UU?

Robin, you make a lot of assumptions all of which are wrong that I have never been in a church community.

I just finished writing some email to my pastor in fact.

There are churches out there that are NOT aligned with interfaithism.

It is odd that you want the readers here to think they do not exsist.
Well for my Catholic bashing correspondent who questions why I allegedly question Protestants and not Catholics,

1) What do you suppose Matthew Fox was (prior to excommunication) and Thomas Berry, Basil Pennington, Thomas Keating, Cardinal Mahoney, Cardinal Levada, etc., etc. ARE if not Catholic.

2) What is your chapter and verse for Catholics are not allowed to qustion their hierarchies?

I see plenty of honest questioning of Catholics from other Catholics, included but not limited to THE WANDERER, THE REMNANT, etc., etc. Plenty of honoest qustioners, including Carrie Tomko's blogspot that I link to?

Like my enemies who attacked me in the past for exposing the New Age Movement, they would create a caricature or distortion of my work and then attack the caricature or distortion they themselves created rather than pointing to specifics.

I have asked Catholic friends what they would do if they were asked by a pope to follow New Age teachings or doctrines. Their usual response: "We would then know that is the anti-pope"

Now when I questioned Pat Robertson and his open claims that he would televise the second coming, here's what I got FROM SOME (thankfully not all):

1) 'Touch not the annointed of the Lord.'

2) "In my spirit, I know he's right."

3) "Connie, if you're right about Pat Robertson, how come so many millions of Christians disagree with you?" (From Dave Hunt who also said, "why couldn't a person believe that and still not be a good Christian" referring to Pat Robertson's published claims that when the Bible said every eye would behold Him, it meant 'on television'.)
If there are readers here who don't make it over to Herb Peter's website, here a posting you would miss.

It's a daily lesson plan from the New York Times based on acceptance of the AOC goals. This is for acceptance of the Muslim religion. I wonder if they will also have lesson plans based on acceptance of Judaism and Christianity. And which branch of Judaism? And which branch of Christianity?

Earl - I assume I'm writing to Earl here - I wrote what I did about what seemed to me to be your lack of fellowship (at least appropriate fellowship which exercises loving correction) because you have been so stubborn about being corrected in here. Many of us have pointed out that - to use my term - you've been very abrasive, and I've found that this is a hallmark of social isolation (no fellowship, in Christian terms). You've come off as having to be right, even when it means being rude, and no amount of loving correction has changed that about your posts. I've found that people that are that rude have difficulty getting fellowship; few people want to listen to them, or even be around them as people, even those who would otherwise agree with them.
To Constance:

********* 1) What do you suppose Matthew Fox was (prior to excommunication) and Thomas Berry, Basil Pennington, Thomas Keating, Cardinal Mahoney, Cardinal Levada, etc., etc. ARE if not Catholic.*******

Constance if you AGREE with me about the Catholic church's involvement in the interfaith movement, why NOT just say so instead of getting upset about the things I am sharing? If you agreed with me, would you and your followers be hammering over and over for sharing the Vatican's involvement in the interfaith movement? Ive already pointed this out as a major inconsistency.

Benedict is following the same interfaith plan given that another Assisi meeting was held acouple months ago.

So the question follows...

Why get upset when I post things about the WCRP and Vatican involvement? Why are your supporters going down ad hominen highway in attempts to silence me?

I still am interested in your response to the information that I have provided regarding the WCRP.

********* 2) What is your chapter and verse for Catholics are not allowed to qustion their hierarchies?******

Catholic Catechism:

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

937 The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (CD 2).

I am familiar with Trad Catholics having had discussions with them. I know there are Catholics out there who are NOT deceived by the interfaith movement. I always found the Trad Catholic position rather illogic, intelligent well intentioned people who have figured out that the first commandment is being broken and over and over, but who sadly believe because of the "one true church indoctrination", that they are to remain under false leaders who teach things against the basics of Christianity.

I am VERY familiar with the Trad Catholic movement Constance, in fact I very well could have ended up a Trad if I had not been born again and or studied God's Word to realize what the Catholic church truly was. Trads reject interfaithism and parts of the NWO system.

So yes these honest questioners do exsist...and by the way I believe God will be calling more Catholics out, as the Catholic church descends into even worse apostasty. [Same for Prots under false leadership and daughters]

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The saddest thing about Trad Catholics and some researchers to me is how THEY KNOW, They KNOW what the Vatican is up to, but instead of listening to the Biblical warnings by Jesus Christ Himself about the wolves in sheep's clothing, they stay withing, knowing their leaders are hirelings, allowing themselves to be under the tutelage of those who would feed them and their children spiritual poison. {the sedevancantists at least have a teeny bit more logic to their position, but still too adhere to a church that never really exsisted}

Concerning your Catholic friends, Constance, right now the Popes are teaching Masonic, New Age concepts via the interfaith movement. Satan works in subtle fashion. Remember what I posted concerning the Masonic gameplan, it was to bring all religions together--"unity in diversity. That is being done now. Some of the TRAD CATHOLICS have FIGURED IT OUT ALREADY TODAY!

Ill be honest with you on Catholic boards, most are considered the same as Protestants, I see them banned far faster then even your Bible Christian on Novus Ordo Catholic message boards.

When I talk about Dominionism and Reconstructionism, Pat Robertson is one of the worse offenders Constance. I AGREE with you about him.

Ok Here is a question for you, I know I have asked many.

Do you support the interfaithism that Pope Benedict promotes?
Look at it this way. If we keep Earl busy, then we are probably giving his pastor a much needed break!
Do I promote interfaithism? My answer is: I AM COMFORTABLE WHEREVER JESUS CHRIST AND PLAIN SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS ARE NOT DENIED. Do I believe they are denied in either the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed of the Catholic (and used by many other denominations)? I do not. Am I automatically comfortable when somebody putting out recognizable New Age teachings sends me a canned or mimeographed "Statement of Faith." I am not.
I am so very happy to learn for the first time about "Unity in Diversity" from anonymous referred to by some as "crabby old Earl". Where do you think I have been for the past 25 years? Making chopped suey? Did you read my books? If so, you would know how highly unfair and unresearched your questions are. I was just about the first to warn about this and took the flak when I stood virtually alone!
Anon 6:15

There are snakes in all religions and I don't believe anyone is disputing that fact. What is with the constant butt chewing? State your case and respect other opinions. Relax.
I have news for you -- in my life I have never sat in a Christian Church ranging from SDA in my childhood to Baptist in my adult ones that did not use these very same scriptures quoted in whatever version of the RCC Catechism you are quoting to justify submission to the Pastor and Board of Elders of the local church. And now that I am thinking out loud, just where did that Baptist doctine come from, "autonomy of the local church." I don't know of a denomination that doesn't have a hierarchy that expects submission. You are doing enough Catholic bashing on your own -- you don't need me to team up with you. I've been in this battle for 25 years and pretty much know "where the bodies are buried" so to speak. I know who listened and acted. I know about the purveyors of disinformation. I know about true and false friends in the efforts.
And "anonymous", referred to by some as "Crabby Uncle Earl", I gave you an invitation to phone me and discuss it personally. My number is listed. I don't recall hearing from you. Why do you wish to be known solely as "anonymous" and then take replies to your insults personally?
Constance (and, by extension, everyone else reading this message) - last I looked in a community newspaper, Unity in Diversity was called CommUNITY Diversity or something similar. We had a chapter at one time in a Chicago suburb near mine, and they'd occasionally put out a "community announcement" (AKA press release) for our local community newspaper. (Such local papers publish virtually anything, uncut press releases included.) CommUNITY Diversity changes names the way some of us change hairstyles.
I would refer "Earl" to an earlier blogspot I wrote about "the battle for the Roman Catholic Church" in which author Robert Blair Kaiser was so very upset because Pope John Paul II would not permit Catholics to pray with other religions "because they worshipped other Gods." The "culprit" causing this "defective" papal direction was Cardinal Ratzinger per the author who was upset that this same narrow minded, anti-New Age person had become pope. Now, if Lee Penn is right and Levada was knowingly placed where he is without restrictions and is praying with people consciously seeking to subvert the gospel, I am also rightfully concerned, but I need to view the evidence in context -- not take unsubstantiated statements on this bulletin board as gospel. Now, do I think there are some things people even of different religions can agree upon? Well, it depends on what the agreement centers about. If it is: Thou shalt not kill, I agree. If it is, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, etc., I agree. If it is "we must bow down to each other's 'gods', I vociferously DISAGREE."
To amplify on one of Constance's comments about denominations insisting on submission to pastoral authority, even the independent separatist Baptists of my acquaintance have a similar philosophy. They are not united by a denominational organization, but they have publications and conferences and the like. An example of such a publication is The Sword of the Lord (which I subscribed to at one point). So, even they have at least some informal mutual submission going on; they're not "going off the deep end" and are therefore not so independent that they do not submit to pastoral authority or have a unifying body of doctrine (even though they do not profess a formal creed such as the Nicene or Apostles' Creed to which Constance referred). They have an authority to whom they submit (even though they do not acknowledge it as a formal authority, the way Catholics acknowledge the Pope as an authority, in so many words). That unspoken authority effectively determines doctrine for them. In fact, just as an aside, the independent separatist Christians of my acquaintance leave a lot unspoken, making "suggestions" and giving "hints" and "tips." They make it clear by implication that you are to submit to their authority, and woe be unto the person who does not. Social ostracism - being ignored in church, or even witnessed to in the unspoken belief that one is not saved because one is not falling in line - is the best one can hope for if one does not submit to the unspoken authority.
Funny you should mention points of agreement (and legitimate areas of disagreement) with other religions, Constance. I've been thinking of ways to say the same thing in comments to this blog, but have been unsuccessful (and I've been unwilling to start a flame war, as well). I can agree with other monotheistic religions on the validity of the Ten Commandments, for example - one of which is "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." You quote two others: "Thou shalt not kill," and "Thou shalt not commit adultery." That doesn't mean that Christ didn't die to save me from sin, just that there are areas of agreement with other monotheistic faiths. The feeling I get from some of the more strident commentors on this blog is that anyone who states areas of legitimate agreement is guilty of (to use Crabby Old Uncle Earl's term) interfaithism. I need not compromise my Christian beliefs to express my agreement with those who take the Ten Commandments to be - well, Commandments of God. But to hear these commentors talk, any area of agreement with members of other religions (and Catholicism is another religion as far as they're concerned - a false one) represents false, non-Christian interfaithism.
**********Do I promote interfaithism? My answer is: I AM COMFORTABLE WHEREVER JESUS CHRIST AND PLAIN SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS ARE NOT DENIED. Do I believe they are denied in either the Nicene Creed or Apostles Creed of the Catholic (and used by many other denominations)? I do not. Am I automatically comfortable when somebody putting out recognizable New Age teachings sends me a canned or mimeographed "Statement of Faith." I am not.******

Oh, so we are going to erect a strawman only to attack our own creations?

I don't recall asking you that question.

OK speaking of DENIAL...


Gimme a break here, they are what you tack to the wall, only to ignore totally in practice.

Like Bill Clinton and his marriage license.

******** Now, if Lee Penn is right and Levada was knowingly placed where he is without restrictions and is praying with people consciously seeking to subvert the gospel, I am also rightfully concerned, but I need to view the evidence in context -- not take unsubstantiated statements on this bulletin board as gospel. Now, do I think there are some things people even of different religions can agree upon?*******

What do you mean view the evidence "in CONTEXT"?

Context is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? So, please DEFINE what context you are aiming at here.

Just stating "in context" without defining YOUR understanding only leads to more confusion


*****"Funny you should mention points of agreement (and legitimate areas of disagreement) with other religions, Constance. I've been thinking of ways to say the same thing in comments to this blog, but have been unsuccessful (and I've been unwilling to start a flame war, as well). I can agree with other monotheistic religions on the validity of the Ten Commandments, for example - one of which is "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." You quote two others: "Thou shalt not kill," and "Thou shalt not commit adultery." That doesn't mean that Christ didn't die to save me from sin, just that there are areas of agreement with other monotheistic faiths."*******

What is this "points of agreement" stuff with FALSE RELIGIONS?

There are no "points of agreement"

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

When you discuss having "points of aggreement" with false religions, you all out yourself as SUPPORTING THE INTERFAITHISM you supposely are AGAINST.



"if we could articulate the points of aggreement among the world religions, a transcultural revelation of the basic values of human life which the world religions hold in common would emerge"


The Problems of Humanity:Building Right Human Relations
Study 6 The Churches and Organized Religion.

page 28 right column towards the top...

Wow it sounds to me Constance, that you and your friends SUPPORT THE SAME AGENDAS as LUCIS TRUST.

Want to try and explain this one again?
It is obvious to me reading Anonymonys, a/k/a "crabby old uncle earl" that we are dealing either with a sick and twisted mind AND/OR an agent provocateur who is vigorously pursuing the New Age agenda as articulated by both Alice Bailey and Peter LeMesurier of pitting target groups against each other in the expectation that after they destroy each other, they will be the phoenix to arise from the ashes and build the new (New Age) society. That last post was a "howling/screamer", especially when he/she/it/whatever suggests I am following the same agenda as Lucis Trust. Lucis Trust considers me their number one enemy and has for years. I am beginning to suspect Crabby Uncle Earl may be the Lucis Trust operative!
I love your work and I am so grateful for all that you have done in the lives of so many people. I believe the Lord has given you a great deal of wisdom and you have used it well on His behalf. However that being said,we all have blind spots, and I honestly believe that the issue with Catholisism is one. As I see it, true Christianity boils down to this; We must believe that Christ alone is the one who paid the price for our sins and that we can add nothing to his work of redemption. However when I talk to my precious Catholic neigbor she informs me that while it is true that Christ died for our sins, we too must do our part. basically she has been taught and believes that it is faith plus works. And that is the false gosple that Paul warned against!
Earl, since you want to play lawyer with the information, please explain to us how you are so familiar with the Lucis Trust writings.

You quote Robin as saying "points of agreement." Then the quote becomes "When you discuss having 'points of aggreement'"...

Then you say you found a cache from Google with the words
"if we could articulate the points of aggreement among the world religions, a transcultural revelation of the basic values of human life which the world religions hold in common would emerge". (Note the two g's in the word. No such quote exists.)

If you put "Lucis Trust" and "points of aggrement" in a Google search, nothing would have come up.

Let's say you put "Lucis Trust" and "points of agreement" in a Google search, this is what you would get.
World Goodwill
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
ORGANISED RELIGION. WORLD GOODWILL, Suite 54, 3 Whitehall Court, London SW1A 2EF, UK. ® Lucis Trust ... ...if we could articulate the points of agreement ... - Similar pages" This has a Google cache IP address.

The wording would have to be "points of agreement" not "points of aggreement" to find it on the web.

In addition, that phrase appears only once in World Goodwill material and that because it is in a piece by Paulos Mar Gregorios, a Christian Philosopher from India.

The IP number you gave goes back to Google, but not to a cache as cache IP numbers are, not

Would you care to give us the rest of the IP address you listed so that we could see where in the Google organization the address goes, as it does go to the organization, but not a cache. Oh yes, I did a who is search to learn that the IP address you gave did go back to Google.
Since the Lucis Trust was a Cached PDF file, [which cannot be copied and pasted] I had to RETYPE it, and yes that misspelling of agreement is my TYPO, but it is there for any of you to check out.

The misspelled word doesnt change the fact that Robin used and agreed with the very same idea of religions coming to "points of agreement' just like Lucis Trust.

As usual some here are all too desperate to change the subject.
So Constance...

A born again Bible Christian who believes that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way, and who rejects ecumenism/interfaithism/
universalism is now a New Ager and Lucis Trust operative?

Were you THAT desperate not to answer my questions?

How very sad.
Your lawyer skills are pretty weak. Cumbey didn't trace your information. Many people read this blog, but not everyone posts all of the time.

Where is the rest of that link?

How do you know so much about Lucis Trust but didn't know that was a quote from a Christian?

How was it that you knew to look the words up spelling agreement correctly when you spell it incorrectly?

Why haven't you called Cumbey if you have such a problem with her comments? She is reachable.

Somehow you avoid answering questions.
Never claimed to be a lawyer...

Define New Ager.

It seems you folks have decided that term applies to ANYONE that disagrees with you.

Bible Believing Christians are NOT New AGers.

Now those who have embraced the interfaith movement, and "all religions lead to god" deceptions, are whether they like it or not.

Earl, obviously like a lawyer at court you think you are the one to ask all of the questions and answer nothing. Or is that you prefer not to answer serious questions put to you.
For the record:

This is not necessarily a reply to any one person, although it will seem like one.

In my earlier comment, I meant to imply only that a significant area of agreement (I implied between Jews and Christians) was on the Ten Commandments. I quoted the same three Constance did: Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, and Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Yes, there are significant areas of disagreement among even the monotheistic religions, and these areas of disagreement make me wary of going to a mosque or synagogue to do anything more than appreciate the architechture of those buildings.

But acknowledging that there are areas of agreement is not the same as interfaithism. If someone could make more than the tenuous connection that people like Crabby Old Uncle Earl does, I'll be grateful. All we have are his statements that they are one and the same. He's been known to misquote Benedict XVI.

As a Christian with genuine scientific inclinations (as opposed to being a member of the Christian Scientist church), I don't go by mere assertions and misquotations. I need solid proof. So far, Crabby Old Uncle Earl, at least, has not satisfied that need.
I would like to set one thing straight. There was a comment posted by "Earl" as such:

"If you agreed with me, would you and your followers be hammering over and over for sharing the Vatican's involvement in the interfaith movement? "

I am a follower of Jesus Christ and not Constance Cumbey. I however deeply respect Constance Cumbey and the work she has done over the past 25 years.

Just what is this about "cached" google *.pdf files? To the best of my knowledge, usually there is no cache on *.pdf files? Or is there? Only a google insider would be likely to know?
Just what is this about "cached" google *.pdf files? To the best of my knowledge, usually there is no cache on *.pdf files? Or is there? Only a google insider would be likely to know?
Just what is this about "cached" google *.pdf files? To the best of my knowledge, usually there is no cache on *.pdf files? Or is there? Only a google insider would be likely to know?
Just what is this about "cached" google *.pdf files? To the best of my knowledge, usually there is no cache on *.pdf files? Or is there? Only a google insider would be likely to know?
Not every Google programmer is still employed there.
Not every Google programmer is still employed there, you know, the very best cashed out their options and now have time to engage in online activities.
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