The Middle East is aflame. Rockets from the Gaza Strip have been raining on Israel, even on Tel Aviv. Israel in return has been aiming its fire at Hamas strongholds in the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip was turned over to the Palestinians with great force and violence to its former Israeli settlers in 2005. The Gaza Strip, formerly administered by Egypt, was taken by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967. In that war, a large combination of Arab countries declared war on Israel, expecting a quick victory. There was a quick victory, but the victory was Israel's. Now the Gaza Strip is part of the Palestinian Union's territory.
Since turning the Gaza Strip over to the Palestininan Union, it appears it has meant nothing but trouble for both Israel and the non-political Palestinians trapped within its borders. Hamas, the radical Palestinian-Islamist organization has used it as a firing base. Israel, forced to defend the safety of its citizens from the Gaza launched attacks was forced to resort to blockades, hunting down of Hamas leadership. Hamas has declared official control of Gaza and according to the Wikipedia account, formed an alternative Hamas Government in Gaza.
Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the Palestinian Union. He is of the Fatah Party, which though not officially classified as a "terrorist organization" has sponsored plenty of its own share of terrorist activity. A 1968 TIME MAGAZINE news account gave a picture of Hamas' at least then orientation.
The announced goal of El Fatah, the Arab terrorist organization, is to provoke Israelis into a pogrom of Arabs living in Israel and thereby shatter all Israeli hopes for peaceful coexistence in their occupied territories. Last week, in the latest of a series of bomb attacks, Arab terrorists struck for the first time in Tel Aviv and succeeded in rousing an angry Jewish response.
Fatah was founded by Yasser Arafat. It has had a history of revolutionary activity that was violent enough in and of itself. Fatah, these days, seems comparatively tame compared to its even more radical counterpart, Hamas.
What may make a crucial difference this time is a direct result of the "Arab Spring" which started near two years ago in December 2010. Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak was overthrown in the Egyptian phase. Mubarak had his faults, to be sure, However, he was at relative peace with the Coptic Christians of his country and equally importantly, the Nation of Israel.
Mohamed Morsy is now the President of Egypt. Interestingly, I once (1989-1992) had a client from Egypt with the very same name, but they are two different persons. President Mohamed Morsy of Egypt is affiliated with radical Islamist groups. He is believed to be more moderate, but is obviously walking a tightrope between his own very radicalized political base, the United States from which Egypt receives generous financial and military support, and radical Islamist factions. Egypt also has a "Prime Minister," Hisham Qandil. It was hoped that a truce of sorts might be arranged under Qandil's offices. Qandil was visiting Gaza and was there when many of the
There are two viable political parties in the Palestinian Union: one is trouble for Israel -- Fatah, and the other is far worse trouble -- Hamas.
Which direction Egypt turns is going to be crucial. Within the past hour of my writing this (5:45 a.m.), per BBC, the Egyptian Prime Minister has said that what is happening in Gaza is a disaster. I'm sure nobody would disagree. However, he said that Egypt would do all it could to broker a truce.<1>
Israel has called up 16,000 reserves which are said to be placed very near Gaza. However, there is "no ground war yet."
I'm sure the New Age community is reading much into this for their own 2012 "prophecies." There appear to be definite signs of potentials for New Age scenarios such as Peter LeMesurier's THE ARMAGEDDON SCRIPT. Definitely, we should read our own Bibles very closely in conjunction with our newspapers, CNN, Fox News, and other information sources.
What is happening? God knows!
Stay tuned!
CONSTANCE
<1>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20353223#TWEET367182
116 comments:
In the last thread, a link was posred to a e-book by a anon(12:34). The book is titled Final Warning: a history of the New World Order. The book is extremely well documented, and if nothing else, makes a good piece for pulling source information from. There are numerous pieces that were new to me, including pieces revealing the true origins and purpose of communism. It is quite the extensive read, but well worth the time for those interested.
Thanks again anon.
Hamas fires rockets at Jerusalem...
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/11/16/world/meast/gaza-israel-strike/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Everything is imploding!!!
The entire international political system is standing naked and transparent before the world (exposing both the radical Left and the radical Right)....and everything is beginning to tumble like a house of cards!!!
Yet, God is watching....and revealing to us that He is still very much in charge and in control.
If we are ever taken off the grid, we will be reminded that you don't need electricity to talk to God. Prayer is FREE!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFVFJ0iRRA&feature=relmfu
First instalment of an 8-part presentation by that rare thing, a moral (and Christian) financial professional, called "The economy is going to implode". All parts were uploaded last week.
OK, now I KNOW it's Armegeddon!!!
The day the Twinkie died ~ Hostess closes 33 plants / lays off 18,500
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233968/The-day-Twinkie-died-Hostess-shut-lay-18-500-workers.html
Is this a war or just a rumor of war ?
The Ezekie 38 war won't happen until Israel is at peacewith most of its Arab neighbors. Read the list of nationalities very few if any Arabs among them who come against Israel.
I remember when this was touted as predicting a Soviet Russian invasion of Israel, that didn't pan out. And right now Israel is buddy buddy with one of those turkic nations that came out of the breakup of the Russian empire.
"Roman Catholics, will need to hold
Masses in refuges or Churches of safety."
Per www.thewarningsecondcoming.com
November 11, 2012
Gog is AC, according to Joel Richardson, in his column on WND. He gives six reasons. another source that has helped in understanding Ezek.38, and that's Walid Shoebat. All the nations that come against Israel are Islamic. Meshech, Togarmah, Gomer, and Tubal are all TURKEY. Gog(AC, out of Turkey)leads the coalition of Isl. nations: Turkey from the North, Iran (which is tight w/ Turkey)from the East, Libya(Put)from the West, Sudan(Ethiopia or Cush)from the South. Egypt and Syria aren't mentioned. According to Dan.11, the Kings of the North and South (Egypt and Syria), are destroyed by the AC. Syria will likely be taken-over by Turkey soon. The pieces of the puzzle are coming together quickly, with help from B.O., NATO,etc. BTW, Turkey has the second largest military in NATO. Another item which may interest the reader: Shoebat's "How Christ Will Defeat Arabia" video in his End Times Today series- Lesson 4.
guillermo
The Mahdi- "the 12th Imam", etc., in Isl. teaching, coincides exactly with the Biblical AC, in that he secures "seven years of Peace". The "Peaceful form" of Isl.(as in Turkey) is going to be marketed to Israel and the world through "Muruna" (stealth, i.e., moderates- the "really friendly guys" that liberals may want to invite over for Christmas dinner). They lull the West into Sharia-compliance. But they're so nice, friendly, scholarly, and....normal!
I agree with Shoebat that Istanbul is going to be New Babylon. It's on 7 hills (as Constantinople it was even called New Rome), it's on the border between the two principalities that claim the world today, secularism and Islam, and has a tremendous history as capital of Europe then of Islam. Napoleon said that if the earth were a single State then Istanbul would be its capital, and there is something of the souk about the goods this city trades according to the Book of Revelation.
The "seven hills" are a succession of kingdoms: Egypt, Assyria (Turkey was a part of that around 650 B.C.), Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, then,finally,the Islamic Empire under Mohamed II. The Turkish AC revives that Ottoman Empire, and you have eight, total.
Dan.9: The destroyers of the Temple in 70 AD, were the "people of the Prince"- the EASTERN branch of the Roman Empire. According to Josephus, it was Roman Legion #10, composed of Edomites, Turks, and Syrians.
guillermo
"The "seven hills" are a succession of kingdoms..."
Prove it!
Anon. 6:36-
The Book of Revelation- as every Bible student knows- is allegorical.
"seven mountains" or "seven hills" do not refer to literal mountains or hills. They refer to Kings or Empires. But I can't prove it. It comes down to: who does one believe? For many years, the Dispensationalist prophecy writers were saying that the "seven hills" refers to Rome, but I understand that Rome isn't the only city built on seven hills. I've been looking at Shoebat's teaching, and I believe that he has tremendous insight into this, having been born and raised in the East- Bethlehem. And the Bible is an Eastern book. Plus, he was a Muslim most of his life, but now defends Israel and the Jewish people, having converted to Christianity. Upon his first reading of the Bible, it was obvious to him that all of the Biblical references to the AC, match perfectly with the Islamic Mahdi. Again, who does one choose to believe?
guillermo
If you don't 'see it' ... then don't say that you do 'see it' ...
It's amazing how many fronts the prince of the power of the air would mount to push forward his wanna-be kingdom.
Just in from The Journal of Common Sense Science November 2012, by Dr. Charles W. Lucas Jr. ... 'Creationists Should Not Accept Quantum Mechanics' ...
Excerpt: 'Quantum mechanics describes a universe created by a quantum fluctuation called the Big Bang, not God. QM also describes, via the universal wave function, a universe governed 100% by random statistical processes, not God with a plan for the universe.
It describes a universe with no 'law of cause and effect.' Transfering these physical concepts to the rest of reality --- ethics, morality and philosophical world views, as many freely do --- the logical conclusion of QM suggests that there is no possibility of sin with subsequent consequences and no need for a savior. Is quantum mechanics true, and is it the only credible explanation for physical reality?'
...
One of the key experiments supporting QM was the photoelectric effect. ... Then in 2011 electrical engineers working on microscopic circuits for computers found that atoms and crystals absorb light energy like miniature antenna arrays. Thus the initial interpretation of the photoelectric effect in terms of photons was premature and mistaken.' ...
Big Bang, Quantum Mechanics, none of this should phase a creationist. whatever there is to any of this, God made it. Period.
atheists can write Godout of anyscenario, even a creationist consistent one.TakeIntelligent Design and Saltation and Punctuated Equilibrium. All just scream for God as the direct cause. ID is probably a foot in the door for Creationism, but isn't presented as that.Yet the atheists just go on with their position even if they accept the foregoing. If they buy ID then aliens did it. Well, who made them?The atheists are pathetic idiots who would be humorous except this isn't funny.
But don't miss point ... the seduction of Christians by 'science falsely so called' ... and thus aiding their enemy and not really aware of the slippery sliding slope down ... that the arch prince of darkness has planned ... to lead (others by them) to his snare.
Just in from 'before it's news' ...
Palestine flag raised over US Consulate in NZ ... those NZ's seem to not have a clue about the earthquakes they have had just recently and thus how much they stiill need heavens mercy big time. God have mercy on your children there and protect them from the folly of their neighbours.
Is this the 'last hour?'
RFID planned via ObamaCare for 2013-03-23 ... a snare about to spring ... sudden destruction.
Even Murdoch tweets Obama to tell his Egyptian buddies to stop the rockets and restore peace.
And recall what happened 1997-03-23 at Purim ... 3 1/2 years after Rabin (many - covenant with Rab was caused to be confirmed/strengthened for 7) ... shook Arafat's hand, which he said he would never do, but Clinton had 'his gun to Rabin' ... it seems. Then, just a little later, according to Barry Charmish ... Perez ordered the trigger pulled on Rabin instead of just blanks.
Barry Chamish ... let's pray for a Damacus road revelation for our dear Barry Chamish ... before it's too late. Baruch HaShem!!!
Is this that time of Jacob's trouble ? But Baruch HaShem, he will be delivered out of it!!!
Recall Jacob worked for 7 years for Rachael, got Leah, then worked another 7 years for Racheal ... then 6 years later ... they decide to leave all their troubles with Laban behind and head back to Israel.
(Note 20 years in total.)
Sept 13 1993 was handshake with Rabin, but didn't take effect until one month later.
While the comet at Purim 1997-03-22/23 was turning 3 1/2 years later, so the peace process (land for peace) broke down when Israel broke ground at Har Homa ..so the sacrifice and gifts of that covenant with Rabin took a rest/shabat for 20 months ... right from the exact mid point on ... Bringing us to Why with Clinton and Bibi ... Where Bibi was tricked, with the promised release of Jonathan Pollard, to give up Hebron, more land for peace ... but still we are in 'trouble'.
"The Book of Revelation- as every Bible student knows- is allegorical."
Bible students 'know' that because they are taught it. But is it correct? If it's an allegory, what is it an allegory of? God does not waste words, so what does every fine detail correspond to?
Its style is different from John's gospel because it is the jotted-down record of an unfolding vision, and God’s words at the end forbade any editing (Rev 22:18-19). John had only the language of 2000 years ago to describe events such as meteorite strikes and nuclear war. That is the true explanation of its ‘apocalyptic’ style, not any literary construction. We are told of the breaking of seven seals in heaven on a prophetic scroll of woe, the blowing of seven trumpets by angels announcing woes on earth, and the pouring out of seven bowls of God’s wrath. These events in heaven, meaning the spiritual realms, have counterparts on earth, which are specified. The action in the book switches between heaven - the spiritual realms - and earth. The earthly events do not correspond to events in history, so they are yet to happen. Making sense of it is that simple - too simple for liberal academic theologians, unhappily.
Jesus did not come back when the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed by the Romans in AD70, which probably confused many Christians. Perhaps John’s vision was given soon afterwards, in order to explain that the events leading to Jesus’ return are greater still in scale. All of the world’s peoples will be caught up. God also ties up loose ends about the ultimate fate of the world and of all people.
• If the book of Revelation depicts only spiritual battle between good and evil in the heavenly places (the idealist view), then why does the action in its midpart alternate between heaven and earth? What does each detail mean?
• If the book looks ahead prophetically but is entirely spiritual, how can you know when these prophecies have been fulfilled?
• If the book is prophetic mainly about the early church era in which John lived (the 'preterist' view), then to what in our history books does each detail of those prophecies correspond?
• If God came bodily to this earth as Jesus once within human history, why not again? Do those who doubt his bodily Second Coming differ from someone who, before Christ, scoffed at Isaiah’s prophecy (9:6) of the Incarnation?
• Do the letters in the Book of Revelation to seven congregations in Asia Minor really fit successive eras of church history (the ‘historicist’ view) once the near-forgotten thousand-year tale of Christianity east of the historic boundaries of the Roman Empire is taken into account?
Anon 4:54 and 4:57 ... parts are explained and we are explicitly told what each of those images represent. In rev 20:4,5,6 we are explicitly told that the first resurrection includes those who are killed for not taking the mark. Those included in this first resurrection event are explicitly described as blessed and holy. We are explicitly told that the rest of the dead will not come alive until (a little after) 1000 more years. Now this first (general) resurrection event has not taken place yet, so it is still ahead. We are also told elsewhere explicitly that we who are alive and remain will not preceed those who sleep in Jesus ... and that the dead in Christ will rise first. Daniel was told there was a resurrection to honour and ... to shame. Jesus states further ... a resurrection of the just and also of the unjust. It seems then, in light of rev 20:4,5,6 ... that the blessed and holy just ones rise in honour at the first resurrection ... the rest ... after 1000 (plus a little time) years.
Anon@9.21am,
This is Anon@4.54&4.57am. I agree with you. But the events of which you speak come in Rev 20 AFTER the events which I raised in response to guillermo's comment about allegory.
I do not believe that Rev 20 is a recapitulation passage - I think that is eisegesis. Satan is bound during the millennium, so that he cannot deceive the nations of the world (Rev 20:3); yet wars between nations have not lessened in the last 2000 years. 1 John 5:18-19, written in the church era, says that the whole world is in the grip of evil. St Paul refers to ‘this present evil age’ (Galatians 1:4). Clearly Satan is loose today, so the millennium has not begun.
And ... neither has the first resurrection taken place ... so that 1000 years is still ahead. That 1000 years seems to be the time spoken of in Isaiah where the lions will eat grass like an ox and wolf and lamb will be friends ... etc.
When Jesus was dead, He descended into hell and crippled the devil, who is PARTLY bound, but still dangerous. the millenium of total binding of the devil has not begun, and will not until Jesus comes back.
pre trib rapture is skubala invented nearly 200 or less years ago, real recent. II Thessalonians says that Jesus won't come back until the man of lawlessness is revealed. And if people are dying for not taking the mark, clearly, the church is going to go through the tribulation.
We rise to meet Jesus, hang out with Him a visible troop in the air with Him while He sends down wrath on the antichrist and then we descend to earth with Jesus to rule with Him. That is the only scenario that fits all the bits in Scripture.
chiliasm was a heresy that held that Jesus would rule 1,000 years as if His rule had a limit, when it has no end. the 1,000 years are a segment of it, after which the devil is loosed to tempt the nations who will rebel against Jesus' ruling them, probably ethnic and other "liberty" demands, confusing liberty from all rule with the liberty from the power of sin and from the power of demons, and after that rebellion is put down the final general resurrection and judgement and the devil will not be able to tempt. There will be an overhaul of the universe, new heavens and a new earth and New Jerusalem 1500 miles wide and high, with billions of square miles of floor space think high rise. must have new laws of physics.
Jesus descended into HADES, where souls wait to be reclothed in flesh, not GEHENNA (the lake of fire, which is to be populated only after the Day of Judgement). What he did there is retold in Peter's letters. No mention of any 'partial binding' of Satan.
"chiliasm was a heresy that held that Jesus would rule 1,000 years as if His rule had a limit, when it has no end."
Not so fast! Of course his reign has no limit, but this earth has a limit, and after 1000 years it gets the same makeover that we got at our Resurrection.
Not so fast ... those resurrected at the first resurrection ... that's one thing ... but those alive and remain ... we shall be changed ... could be in part 1 so as to fulfill Isaiah visions ... then further change(s) ?
hades and hell are currently the same. gehenna is later. The idea that satan was bound and the millenium is the church ruling now, was held by almost all Christianity for a long time. Paul mentions that when Jesus descended into hades "He led captivity captive" and this and other things are the basis for the harrowing of hell story. Satan has been crippled incl. by the preaching of the Gospel, there is more occultic activity and exorcism necessity in mission fields than where Christianity is established, but it has been on the wane and the US and Europe has always had waves of interest in occultism of one sort or another, incl. an undercurrent of folk magic and witchcraft in many places for generations.
As in the days of Lot ...
Just posted at drudge: bug protest in France of same-sex marriage legislation
Big protests ... And also at Drudge, O warns Israel not to 'ramp up' ...
Please recall Christine ... Daniel tells us ... at time of end ... knowledge will increase. Baruch HaShem!!!
"hades and hell are currently the same. gehenna is later."
Hades and gehenna are words found in the NT Greek. The former is the place of waiting, unclothed by the body; the latter is the lake of fire. To prevent confusion, the word 'hell' should be defined in any English translation before it is used.
"The idea that satan was bound and the millenium is the church ruling now, was held by almost all Christianity for a long time"
Excuse me, it was held for many centuries in an unbroken tradition from the apostolic era.
Correction: last line of 1104am should read "Excuse me, chiliasm was held for many centuries in an unbroken tradition from the apostolic era."
But oh that ... we would rather grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah as beloved Peter, just before his death, exhorts us all!
That is not what The Apostles taught, neither was it held until St. Augustine pushed the idea a lot.
If the devil was as bound as it came to be thought, there would be no exorcisms, no need for the oil of catechumens in baptism which is oil of exorcism.
I can understand why the church fell into such an idea, when they were mostly used to life in Christianized lands, where The Holy Liturgy was performed everywhere often daily and the relics of martyrs and the Holy Water and blessed oils drove away devils.
But read the lives of saints who were desert monks, who lived in the waste places Jesus said demons go to when cast out of someone. That is not what could happen as happened to them if in fact the devil was bound in the way Revelation speaks of.
The Montanist heresy, a kind of pentecostalism, brought Revelation into question and disrepute because they misused it a lot, so that its canonicity was questioned for a while.
I forgot to mention, I Peter 5:8 "be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour."
Does that sound like The Apostles taught that the devil was fully bound?
Hey ... during the 1000 years when the devil is bound, maybe then, the lion will eat grass like the ox ... etc. ... do then, no more roaring lions ... for that 1000 years :)
"That is not what The Apostles taught, neither was it held until St. Augustine pushed the idea a lot."
Christine, so far as I can tell you have just advocated different things. Chiliasm was held from the start to Augustine, yet you criticise Augustine at 11.13am and criticise chiliasm at 10.08am. Would you please clarify?
But ... in light of Daniel 12 ... at time of end, knowledge to increase ... so while it is interesting to see what our fore-fathers 'saw' ... we may expect to see yet more in the prophetic word ... especially as the time draws near. So ... no need to hound the confusion that seems some times to come from any here.
Just a reminder to those individuals I recently told about Constance Cumbey and her blog. Look at the early years of the blog where you will find information about the New Age movement. Charitable person that she is, she has allowed the blog to be turned over to some individuals who are unable to find people with whom to discuss Christianity in their local churches and to a few others who are just lonely because of their unusual ideas. Rather than let the blog die off because of lack of interest in the New Age and the difficulty in understanding the complexities of New Age,it now serves another worthy purpose. I doubt it, but it just might suit your needs also.
Chakras and reptiles and vampires, OH MY!
@ Anon 1:31 PM
Posts by respected researchers and contributors here have become very few and far apart.
They've probably grown tired of following the comments section with a pooper scooper each and every time they visit.
There is absolutely no way to determine exactly what will be (or is) New Babylon. It's a matter of speculation and everyone should be cautious if someone claims they know for sure. New York City would also make a good New Babylon. I'm not saying for sure if it is. It's as plausible as Istanbul, which doesn't have as much influence in the world as New York City. The epicenter of the American (and arguably the world's) financial system is NYC. Just because America isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible, America is no doubt a player in the world scene, even more so with Obama's reelection (as if this came as a surprise to anyone). There is no other entity in the world quite like the U.S.A. We are everywhere and intermingle with almost all nations (or at least they have to deal with us in some fashion, including Iran and North Korea). Is the U.S. referenced in Revelation 18? Only time will tell, but currently, only one entity is so applicable.
I repeat, chiliasm was the notion of a thousand year reign of Christ that would come to an end, not Second Coming and rule by Christ on earth per se.
it is in exactly those terms that it is condemned at one of the ecumenical councils of the early church.
the term chiliasm is wrongly equated now with any and all expectation of a 1,000 year rule, whether it ends or not. the 1,000 years in Revelation is about the initial phase of His Second Coming during which the saints who were with Him and those saints if any still alive at His Second Coming would rule with Him and the devil would be bound so he can't even whisper to anyone.
Indeed St. Paul says that we do not yet see everything subjected to Christ and under His rule though the groundwork for this has been established.
This distinction is why you see in The Nicene Creed that regarding Christ "of His kingdom there shall be no end."
Dear Sadman,
As the man who conjectured Istanbul as New Babylon I agree with you that there is an element of uncertainty. I gave arguments in its favor and was careful not to state that it was definite. As time passes, it will be increasingly obvious that one city is it, though. And it won't be New York, which is not associated with 7 hills.
"I repeat, chiliasm was the notion of a thousand year reign of Christ that would come to an end, not Second Coming and rule by Christ on earth per se."
Christine, there is too much confusion on these subjects for much chance of constructive discussion here. I repeat - Christ's reign will indeed go on forever, but it starts on an unregenerate earth where it lasts for 1000 years, then moves to a remade earth and a remade Jerusalem for eternity. The Second Coming is to this unregenerate earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills
Staten Island and Yonkers in NY are each on seven hills and USA has a lot of cities like this. 12 I think.
I'm still recuperating and on antibiotics. My husband is now coming down with his own full fledged case of the tracheo-bronchitis that has racked me since a week ago Saturday.
In the NEWS -- An OCCUPY physician has been accused and charged with possessing bomb making materials.
Also in the news re OCCUPY: Their newest project may be one of their better ideas. They are buying up debts for pennies on the dollars and forgiving the debts.
Pray for both of our health. I'm up now because my husband's cough is keeping him awake. He is running a fever and I'm calling his personal physician in the morning even though he is as stubborn now as I was when I first came down with it until Tuesday morning I had no choice but to see our doctor.
This "tracheobronchitis" stuff doesn't seem to want to go away without antibiotics. The cough is the most painful I ever experienced.
Constance
Yonkers as world capital? Best laugh I've had for ages! 7 hills is a necessary but not sufficient condition to qualify as a candidate for New Babylon. Yonkers is not a distinct city from New York. Also the place must be the coast, which rules out some on the 7-hill list.
Christine
"Pre tribulation Rapture is skubula
invented ...recently..."
You're so wrong Christine, again.
And again, being wrong doesn't slow
you down at all.
You insist on putting on the airs of
someone who knows something when you
haven't really looked into a matter.
Kenneth Johnson, Th.D is a scholar and
author of numerous books which deal with
the writings of the old church fathers.
According to him, at least four of the early
church fathers ( and their Apostle mentors),
believed in a Pre tribulation Rapture.
But hey, Christine knows more than they
did.
I'll tell you what's skubula; your comments are generally skubula.
I agree with Christine. Pre-trib rapture was never accepted doctrine until the Scofield Bible with its commentary. It is based selectively on scriptures saying it will be a total surprise; but Jesus told his followers to keep watch and what signs to look for. No contradiction exists: Jesus’ return is a surprise to the unbelieving world, but not to discerning believers – of whom a few will be alive at his return, converts or survivors. The differing scriptures about the Rapture relate to the experiences of differing people – believers and unbelievers.
Jesus made no mention of any pre-Tribulation rapture when he gave his followers the sequence of events leading to his return, but he did warn of persecution. There is no unambiguous statement of the pre-Tribulation rapture in scripture. This doctrine became popular in a culture where the church had forgotten what it is like to be persecuted, and it is a promise of “peace, when there is no peace.” That was not the experience of the martyrs in the early church or in communist China. God guides his people through trouble, not round it.
It's nice that you and Christine agree.
So what are you going to do with the
Apostles and early church fathers with
whom you disagree ?
I just love an Anonymous poster who has
such great conviction and courage.
That's rich.
I have seen such claims, and refutation of them. One pretribber admitted that nothing existed in all the early church writings that was really soundly pretrib, except one monk. And that bit when examined I found was ambiguous. In fact, the original vision of MacDonald I think her name was that launched this pretrib stuff was ambiguous, and got the pretrib focus interpreted onto it by someone else.
II Thessalonians 3, 4 rules the pretrib thing out.
It would be pretty irrational of the early church to expect pretrib, given the massacres and incredible tortures they had already gone through before Constantine made Christianity legal.
One list ofallsuch examples speaksof gathering together thegood outof range of "the confusion that is tocome becauseof oursins" and sinceTheDay ofThe Lord will be very public, would fit the picture of Christ comes, we rise to meet Him, and are there floating inthe air with Him while He rains down confusion and tribulation upon the antichrist and his followers.
It is the wrath of God type tribulation that we are spared, not the unrighteous wrath of the antichrist type tribulation.
This is the ONLY picture that fits all Scripture verses on the matter without twisting any of them incl the twisting called spiritualizing them.
TheShepherd of Hermas was removed frombeing readin church and was notheld as important later on.
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918
This guy is so mixed up, he counts St. Ephraem of Nisibus in the medieval list, and he was in the AD 300s! Of the list he gives that supports premil and kingdom rule, THIRTEEN, only ONE on that list, the Shepherd of Hermas that fell into disrepute, is remotely pretrib.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/575824-what-did-early-church-fathers-say.html
gives a list of postribbers in the early church incl. at least one on the supposed pre trib list.
http://www.posttribpeople.com/Post-Tribulation-Belief.html
The first clear cut pretrib rapture idea came from a Jesuit priest in 1812.
Paul,
While Constance permits Anons to post here, kindly address your concerns about that to her.
I am doubtful of any pre-trib rapture in the apostles or church fathers. I'll bet it's all eisegesis, like it is with the apparently supportive quotes from scripture. Let's see some quotes from those guys for a start.
The following has more connection to the New Age movement than most of the material posted here.
Kevin writes a blog out of Cook County, Illinois, home of Obama and the rest of the communist crew now running the White House. His commentary is much longer than what I am copying here. What everyone needs to realize is that what he writes here about Cook County applies to every village, every township, every school board, every library board, every water commission etc. here in the US. Pick one to follow. Show up at their board meetings to watch what is going on. So you miss your favorite sitcom or talent show once or twice a month. It may take you three or four meetings to get a feel for what is going on. Dream on if you think all of the community leaders love you and are taking care of you because they love you. A few are, but unless you show up, you will never know who they are. If the meetings are carried on the local community cable stations, you can even stay home and watch what is going on. You are already throwing thousands of dollars to the people running these meetings through your property taxes or through your rent money which then goes to property taxes.
http://hillbuzz.org/ Kevin writes:
What Was the Cook County Clerk’s Office Hiding on Friday November 16th, 2012?
I believe that if you didn’t like the results of the November 6th election and you want things to be different in 2014 and 2016, then you have to start doing things differently and becoming more personally involved in what’s happening to our country. That starts with the place you call home, where you live. In my case, it just happens to be the most corrupt and obstructionist county in the country…where the people elected to office apparently are always hiding something. Normally, I’d just research and write about this kind of thing online…but is that enough anymore?
I don’t think so.
I think it’s time to draw a line in the sand and push back against Democrats in this state…and to file every complaint, FOIA every document, and attend every Board meeting to openly start calling out people like David Orr for their bad behavior.
This is my new hobby. I hope you’ll chime in below in comments with any experiences you’ve had where you live that might have been similar.
My comment: Want to fight the New Age movement? It's not enough to meander about possible connections to strange organizations. It's not enough to preach to the choir of people who think as you do. Don't hope that someone will do what you should be doing.
Hey all ... Let's pray for our host and hubby ... to have a heaven sent speedy and total recovery. If two or three will but agree ... Baruch HaShem! (Has He not said ... 'I am the Lord that healeth three.').
Constance:
Prayers are on the way for you and your husband that you both heal completely and quickly.
Since this blog is sharply divided regarding pre-trib vs. post-trib theories....this debate is never going to be settled here. Only TIME will tell.
So, please let go; let God (handle it)!!!
http://web.archive.org/web/20080222014754/http://www.discernment-ministries.org/ChristianImperialism.htm
A very good paper on the dominionist heresy and how it operates and what's wrong with it.
Dear 9.27pm,
You say only time will tell (pre- vs post-trib rapture). Both sides of this debate believe that scripture will tell, and I welcome debate within the body of Christ provided that it is conducted in His Spirit. That is much better than the alternative of schism. However I also agree that this is not the place for the debate.
If someone here makes passing reference to one of the pre-trib or post-trib positions as if it were a fact, that is not a problem. We shouldn't take each other up on everything. But if someone makes a comment here which is principally about the subject and asserts one position, then people from the other position (possibly including me) are going to respond, and away we go.
I see three alternatives:
1. Status quo.
2. People show more self-discipline in not posting off-topic contentious issues. (This is a blog about New Age.)
3. Constance deletes off-topic comments on contentious issues. That of course would be a decision for her; it's her blog and we are her guests.
No. 2 would be best.
Dominion theology is new only to protestantism. It is as old as Augustine's overthrow of chiliasm and his view that the Millennium is now, so that Christ will rule the world THROUGH THE CHURCH, which supposedly will expand worldwide as a political entity. This is what the medieval Catholic church believed and it was reinforced as Catholic monarchs conquered today's Latin America. Whether this view appears among Catholics or protestants, it is wrong. I take the Bible to say that Christ will someday return bodily to THIS earth and rule it from Jerusalem for the Millennium. Then it gets a radical makeover and the ungodly are cast out.
C. Peter Wagner's view of territory and spiritual warfare is unscriptural, confused and contains a dash of New Age. No believer recorded in scripture, not even Jesus while on earth, prayed directly against evil principalities. The ‘prince of Persia’ episode in Daniel (ch.10) implies that battle takes place in the spiritual realms, but scriptural precedent indicates that this is for angels to fight, not humans. Many believers are recorded in scripture as having had visions into the world of the spirit, but none is recorded as taking up arms whilst there: they are witness to what is going on. When people pray “against the principality of secularism/Islam/witchcraft/leviathan” etc, what are they actually doing, beyond declaring that they are against certain things? The ways in which we are to combat secularism (for example) are to witness and lobby against secularist evils, and to convert secular people. We are humans and we fight the forces of evil as they manifest among humans.
There is nothing in the missionary letters, or in Christ’s commands to his followers, about praying against the stronghold over a town as part of missionary work. Of course it is good to pray for a town and its people, and to ask God to cause Masonic halls (etc) to close down; and if people prefer to do this while ‘prayer walking’ then they are free to do so. But praying against territorial spirits would be prominent in scripture if we were meant to do it, since it relates to the core activity of evangelism; yet there is no mention of it in the Bible. That is because Christ’s kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36). Until he returns, his kingdom is the hearts of believers. If you want a territorial monotheism, look to the Old Testament (or, unfortunately, Islam).
The well-known ‘Transformations’ video, about the effects of evangelising certain places, has a territorial theology. It has become clear that the video overstates the changes (although much good has been done in those places). I believe that the improvements stem from evangelistic effort and prayers for the people and place, not prayers against Godless worldviews or local idols.
To Anonymous @ 5:21 AM:
Re: "You say only time will tell (pre- vs post-trib rapture). Both sides of this debate believe that scripture will tell...."
___________________________________
You must be new to this blog.
We have aleady had this debate many times over the years and both sides (the pre-tribs and the post-tribs) have used Scripture to support their arguments.
Yet, this debate continues and remains 'unsolved' in the minds of some - but not in the minds of those who believe their position is the 'correct' one.
Nothing will work on this blog if there is no one left who takes the New Age movement seriously.
The New Age movement is not some passing topic. It can't be dismissed as something that has always been around. Socialist and pagan ideas have always been around, having groups of followers here and there over the years. Yes, we know that, thank you.
The New Age movement is a physical world organization that has worked to seduce every one of us, changing our view of the world we were born into.
If the religious organizations have been co-opted as they were in the time of the Nazis when the New Age movement was tried, turning to belief in Jesus will give little help. Saying to look to Jesus is just sliding out the side door to avoid the work necessary to expose the New Age system.
The fact is, Constance seems to have given up her interest in New Age even though she keeps the blog up and talks on radio shows. The passion seems to be gone. Her focus, out of necessity I presume as she is self-employed, is her legal practice.
Unless there are people who can take her place, reading and posting here, who still know what New Age is about and who care about warning others, this blog will have dissolved into a kind of trivia blog, Christine style. That's where it is now.
I keep checking back here to see if there is any hope of it coming back to life, but I see none.
Post Tribulation Rapture - Disproving Pre-trib in 3 Steps!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofLLykErtp4
Liz Shell
Just got this message from a top, very active conservative, pro Israel and Tea
Party page owner/administrator:
"Hey Liz, Heads up, WE GOT HIT! ALL of our admins have had their profiles
removed from face book or locked down in multiday timeouts. Watch your six.
Worse days to come. FB is controlled by the Obumma admin. Time to move on
friends. FreedomTorch, get an account. Just in case.
Dear Dorothy,
You should start your own blog.
You saying that turning to Jesus won't help
is indicative of your Kabbalistic belief that
it's all about YOU and that you are in fact
God's main means of getting things done.
It's a lie.
A little while back I responded to one of your
anonymous posts by saying that you "aren't
wrong" about this New Age thing but that
your attempts to change it are futile
without help from The Lord, to which you responded, as you always do, by attacking
me and calling me names, which is hurtful but hardly helpful.
So, what's the point in an olive branch held
out to you ? You're mean spirited.
You decided to hate me from the first day that I
commented on this blog. I was overtly Christian
and you obviously hate that.
You're wrong when you say that there's no point in turning to Jesus. The fact is turning ones' life over to Jesus is the only way out of this mess of a pagan world.
I became interested in this blog because the
woman who wrote "Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow" is a Christian, not because she has a friend who converted to modern humanistic Judaism and hates all talk of Jesus.
So:
You write a best seller.
Then, you start a blog.
Then everyone who agrees with you will come to your website. Then your control-freak nature
will at least have a platform to work from.
As for your contention that God only helps those who help themselves, that notion is nowhere in the Bible. In fact the opposite is the case. God helps those who trust in Him.
How many times in the Torah did Israel wake up
on the morning of an anticipated battle only to find
that the enemy; the Philistines, the Assyrians,
the Babylonians, the Egyptians etc., were all dead
or had all fled, or were in a complete state of disarray ?
What did Moses do when the Egyptian army was closing in on him ? Did he sound the battle cry and turn around to fight against them ? He prayed, and
God parted the sea and Israel walked through it on dry ground.
But you haven't read the Torah so how would you know ? And you don't believe Moses, or how could you believe the Kabbalah ?
God knows exactly what's going on, Dorothy, and He doesn't need your help, or mine, at all.
Thank you Rumplestilskin.
Dear 12.29pm,
I am by no means new to this blog. At 5.21am I said only that talk is better than schism about such issues as pre- vs post-trib rapture and that this blog is not the place. (I was careful not to state which view I hold.) It would be great if you felt able to affirm that position.
To Anonymous @ 4:45 PM:
Re: "I am by no means new to this blog....
(I was careful not to state which view I hold.) It would be great if you felt able to affirm that position."
___________________________________
Then, you would also be aware of the fact that Constance herself has stated several times that she also supports the post-trib theory - along with sharing with us her reasons why.
(By the way - at no time, in either my 9:27 PM post or my 12:29 PM post, do I state which view I support!)
Paul,
Stop your trolling. Dorothy is Jewish. Constance respects this. Why can't you when you are a guest at her blog?
To Anonymous @ 5:21 AM:
Re: "....and I welcome debate within the body of Christ provided that it is conducted in His Spirit. That is much better than the alternative of schism."
___________________________________
A 'schism' is defined as 1) a separation or division into factions; 2) a formal breach of union within a Christian church.
So, I hardly think that the post-trib vs pre-trib interpretations of Scripture would ever qualify as 'a formal breach of union.'
I believe that Jesus wants us to trust in HIM, pray daily, and (as long as we continue to obey God's Ten Commandments) not worry about the future of our life here on Earth. He's got it all covered.
Anon@6.04pm,
Jesus wants us to know when the Rapture is or he would not have given us the scriptures. Debate is fine (although not here, as I think we agree). I am in fact a post-tribber in a congregation led by a pre-tribber whose pastoral skills I greatly respect, and neither of us has a problem with that. But I once visited a church, soon after moving to a new town, where one of the Elders told me that they were very strong on pre-trib. I took the hint.
Mmm, not that I wish to debate this matter here in this blog (or even any others, for that matter), I would like to point out to a poster several days back about his theory that the AC is a muslim, per his studies. I don't believe he will be. I found a blog which discusses it in great detail. Whether one thinks the writer is right or not is up to each one who studies the matter to decide. But I think Sean Osborne of Eschatology Today presented several worthwhile articles regarding the subject. If so inclined, check it out.
To Anonymous @ 6:32 PM:
Re: Jesus wants us to know when the Rapture is...."
___________________________________
Huh???
(Oh, if it were only that easy!!!)
Anon@7.23pm,
Re the timing of the rapture, someone is right and someone is wrong. The two positions can't both be right - that would be postmodern nonsense ('that's your truth'). So debate is worthwhile, albeit not on this blog. If you think debate is futile, you can simply keep clear of it.
If there is a soul reading this who still realizes there is a New Age movement, this is for you.
Those going to check out what Lucis Trust and New Group of World Servers are doing are sure to go to http://www.lucistrust.org/festivalweek
Every seven years is a biggie for them. You can spend a lot of time going through their blah blah which they spew out on every piece they send out. Getting something concrete is hard, but here it is from their brochure at www.lucistrust.org/fr/content/.../file/NGWS_3fold_pamphlet.pdf
"Following on from the Festival week seven years ago, we have seen great political, social and economic upheavals, alongside inspiring leadership from the members of the New Group of World Servers. Examples include the Occupy Movement, the Arab Spring, and the on-g98ng focus, with varying success, on achieving the UN Millennial Development Goals and creating a new green economy in reponse to climate change and resource depletion."
If the above link doesn't work, go to google and find
THE NEW GROUP OF WORLD SERVERS All members ... - Lucis Trust
www.lucistrust.org/fr/content/.../file/NGWS_3fold_pamphlet.pdf
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
the One Life. The New Group of World Servers has no ... include the Occupy Movement, the Arab. Spring and ... Atend a Lucis Trust meeng in London,. New York ...
Want to find out where you are in the scheme of things, go to http://www.lucistrust.org/en/service_activities/world_goodwill/key_concepts/the_new_group_of_world_servers__1
Never forget those who believe what I consider blah blah, are people who are very powerful and who have money to support their beliefs. If you don't know that, time to learn.
Anonymous @ 7:30 PM -
So, do you think thst anyone's theory on post-trib vs pre-trib - that happens to be the OPPOSITE of yours - is 'nonsense'?
This theory on the Rapture is open to biblical interpretation....and many Christians remain sharply divided right down the midddle.
So, insulting the other 'half' won't solve this debate.
world servers bragging about success "Examples include the Occupy Movement, the Arab Spring, and the on-g98ng focus, with varying success, on achieving the UN Millennial Development Goals and creating a new green economy in reponse to climate change and resource depletion."
Well, that shows in itself what evil side they are on. This should make some people sit up and take notice, who don't believe in conspiracies or think NWO could be nice, because Arab Spring has been nothing but bad and empowers radical Islam usually.We are teetering on WW 3 because of such machinations in Syria.
Those New Age type individuals who don't like too much meddling in their lifestyles, and want to go back to the land should rethink the Agenda 21 green fascism that will eliminate all rural living if it has its way.
Regarding the Rapture, Jesus said NO ONE, not even Himself or the angels in heaven but only The Father knows when the Second Coming is going to be, so HE DID NOT TELL US ANYTHING IN OT OR NT THAT CAN BE USED TO TELL US WHEN THE RAPTURE IS, though II Thessalonians and Jesus' own words make it clear that the antichrist will come first, and be revealed AS the man of lawlessness, BEFORE Jesus comes back, so obviously the antichrist WILL persecute the church which will be there to be persecuted.
www.lucistrust.org/fr/content/.../file/NGWS_3fold_pamphlet.pdf
can you repost this link with whatever is in the three dots showing, because this kind of link does not work. never incl. "..." in a URL.
http://www.lucistrust.org/fr/content/download/35449/447716/file/NGWS_3fold_pamphlet.pdf
here it is, I highlight copy and right click go to search google for only the NGWS_3fold_pamphlet.pdf
part to find it.
Glen Beck has written a new book and is promoting it. Agenda 21. http://www.glennbeck.com/agenda21/
You can read an excerpt from it at that site.
More of interest to those following the New Age movement is a site to which he links. First look at this list of key words dealing with Agenda 21 which comes from the site.
http://www.glennbeck.com/agenda21/agenda-21-word-list There are roughly 104 terms that are used by those promoting the UN's Sustainability agenda, Agenda 21.
For more information on Agenda 21, go to
http://www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/
Agenda 21 is so extreme that opposition is bipartisan and across all religious, moral and religious lines.
You may be right Christine, but the fact is that there are many, many cities here in the US that have bought into the agenda already. http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/48898 August 2012
"‘The Agenda That Wasn’t Really There’ is the main strategy being used to push through the very real and dangerous Agenda 21 through villages, towns and cities. The inhabitants of some 1,200 cities—600 of them American—do not even know they’ve been hijacked by the UN’s Agenda 21."
This is not a time to relax, hoping that some sort of opposition is coming together to fight the battle for those wanting to live on hope.
Here is a list of cities by country around the world that have signed on to Agenda 21. You have to click on United States to see the cities by state.
http://www.iclei.org/index.php?id=11454
One world government goes a lot further than the EU.
If you go to this site, you will see that iclei far underestimates the number of cities who have joined in. The number above goes to 2008.
"
This is a screenshot taken from ICLEI AFRICA yesterday evening. http://locs4africa.iclei.org/presentation-day-3/
"What is important about it is the Local Action Counter box you see on the right side of the page. This shows that 7,807 cities in the world are members of this international organization designed to establish a parallel global governance structure. This counter box has been removed from most of ICLEI's sites and affiliates, but they missed this one. If you go to ICLEI.org and look for their current membership you'll find the old 2008 figures (which may have been false then) showing just 1,200 members worldwide."
There has been some effective resistance, city of Colfax CA threw the Agenda 21 crew out, for instance.
ICLEI strikes me as attackable, because it involves cities dealing with foreign govt. without going through the US central govt. like the Constitution requires at least as regards states doing this.
"So, insulting the other 'half' won't solve this debate."
I agree. I haven't insulted anyone. Stating disagreement with another's views, and why, is not an insult. Those who do not wish to take part in the debate don't have to. And on the topic in question, it should not be done on this blog.
To Anonymous @ 3:45 AM:
Re: "I haven't insulted anyone..."
___________________________________
I respectfully disagree with you.
Go back and read your previous post @ 7:30 PM where you stated the following....
"Re the timing of the rapture, someone is RIGHT and someone is WRONG. The two positions can't both be right - that would be postmodern NONSENSE ('that's YOUR TRUTH')...."
In other words, it is not up to YOU to arrogantly decide which position is the 'correct' one....and to then attempt to 'demonize' the other position (both of which are simply biblical INTERPRETATIONS)!!!
the person with the wrong conclusionisnotnecessarily engaged in postmodern nonsense, they probably just miscalculated.
that they are saying it is THE truth rules out a postmodern position.,
anon, to argue something is merely a biblical interpretation sounds a tad postmodern as if it doesn't matter, however, it DOESN'T matter in terms of core doctrine. We agree on Jesus just not on what He is doing when.
however, to make all Scripture on this agree with each other without twisting, and bearing in mind that the Rapture is about the custom of meeting the returning ruler coming back from a trip and escorting him into the city, the only scenario that fits (incl. fits Jesus' and Paul'swords) is the post trib pre wrath we hover in the air with Him while He destroys the antichrist and the antichrist's followers,then we continue with Jesus in His descent to rule on Earth
scenario.
http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/videos/mind-control/us-mind-control-weapons-in-iraq.html
It took me a long time to face that the Masonic organizations were not the decent organizations they told others they were. Even after Foster Bailey, husband of Alice Bailey of Lucis Trust wrote about the Masonic connection, I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. So many decent people appeared to be on the lower levels of the organization and there were so many Masons I couldn't see all of them as conspirators. I still can't. I've change my thinking as a result of the book Final Warning by David Rivera. Now I'm very wary.
http://listverse.com/2012/11/21/top-10-scandalous-freemason-secrets/
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kreitz/Christian/Cults/9.newage.pdf
This only briefly mentions the political side.
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kreitz/Christian/Cults/all.html
A larger article the former is a part of, good information.
Christine, how sad that after 30 some years this is the best the academic community can come up with relating to the New Age movement. It's more like a pop article appearing in some Sunday section of a newspaper.
I know some will say we should be happy that this is even appearing. I'm not. I'm disgusted. This kind of article leads to nothing of significance in exploring what is going on.
Anon@8.24pm,
You accused me of insulting people who take the opposite view from mine of the timing of the rapture, in my post that ran: "Re the timing of the rapture, someone is right and someone is wrong. The two positions can't both be right - that would be postmodern nonsense ('that's your truth'). So debate is worthwhile, albeit not on this blog. If you think debate is futile, you can simply keep clear of it."
This post didn't insult either pre-tribbers or post-tribbers. It didn't even take a position. It criticized only the New Age/postmodern view that truth is relative. Neither pre-tribbers nor post-tribbers think that, as they both believe that they are right and the other is wrong. So let's have a churchly debate about it. There is nothing wrong with that provided it is done in the Spirit of God. The early church had its councils. Nobody has to take part who doesn't want to. This blog is not the right place, but there are plenty of others.
In fact I am a post-tribber in a congregation led by a pre-tribber. I can personally witness that there need be no falling out over the issue.
That article twice mentions the political angle on the New Age, but the fact, thatthepolitics arise from the philosophy which comesfrom Theosophy.
In addition, the pop occultism makes more and more people susceptible toinfluencethat either push them in wrong directions,or cripple them fromrecognizing or reacting to them.
The factthat you repeatedly downplay the occultic angle of the New Age, when in fact it is the main primary manifestation in pop culture until the past 10 or 15 years, and the main draw and almost the only form in which it can or does infiltrate churches and it has done so a lot,
strikes me as VERY STRANGE. what are you up to?
the political and world unity and humanitarian draw would be used eventually to get people into trying out the pseudo spirituality behind the political movement, and to either rejecting Christ or crippling their walk in Him by refusing His exclusivist demands.
In the scenario painted in C. S. Lewis' THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH, the "macrobes" servants recruit through the social and economic advancement desires of their targets. Same same with the NWO the ultimate goal is to recruit people to the false religion and spiritual practices that make one amenable to demons.
That is the real goal in either case, and in the latter case the NWO an attack on Christianity insofar as it is seen as contributing to world problems.
The New Age Movement is the pro-Nazi movement....but it also the anti-Christ movement. It has far reaching complex tentacles (which include both political and anti-traditional religious aspects).
Christine, reread the article, Occult Roots of the Russian Revolution, which I posted a while back.It will explain how the political and the gnostic/occult movements came together. http://www.gnostics.com/newdawn-1.html
The idea of New Age as a religion for today is not new. It has been written about in many academic books for at least 20 years now. There have been numerous articles on that topic both in academic and Christian publications. Even then, aside from some buzzwords which everyone who has an inkling of what is going on knows, what is going on at the macro level is not explained.
All along there are new people who are starting from scratch to learn what is going on. So, for them the information is new. There are others such as myself who have gone way beyond the baby lessons. Do you really think Constance is learning from some academic who is writing things she wrote 30 years ago? She's not alone out there, working at that level of knowledge about the New Age movement. We need more information with real meat on the bones and we have to dig very hard for it.
That kind of material presented in that article is a diversion, maybe not planned, but a diversion nonetheless. It leads readers, particularly Christians, to say that they don't believe such stupid stuff and not to worry about people who do because they are stupid.
I discovered about 30 years ago an article in the Center magazine, put out by the Center for the Study of Democratic Institutions, a leftist think tank. Mortimer Adler was the "beard" for the work being done at the Aspen Institute for Humanistic Studies. He wrote an article in which he stated that Judaism and Christianity were not acceptable to one world government because they had a moral code which couldn't be proved scientifically. He said the goal of one world government is a one world culture. The Eastern religions were acceptable because they did not have such a moral code. When one come down to it, paganism and the occult also do not have a moral code. They promote spirituality without morality which is what is going on now. New Age religion is planted to fill the need humans have for more information about that which is beyond their knowledge of the physical world, the supernatural.
While individuals are enmeshing themselves in New Age or other religious beliefs, the push for New Age one world government, the other arm of the New Age movement goes on, way beyond their notice.
Study and involvement in Christianity and Judaism is extremely necessary for a good life and a good community, but one can read the Bible over and over again and not have a clue as to how Agenda 21 is coming into the community or who signed Humanist Manifestos I and II. How can one be a good Watchman without knowing what to watch out for?
On an international level the cultures are being changed. The government is being changed. Where are the people writing about how the two arms of the New Age movement intersect, their history, their ongoing activity?
showing the religious ideas that the political NAM works with is also a good way to get Christians to oppose it. The political side is dealt with in that article, twice, briefly, as an outgrowth of the religious philosophy.
No one posts here to educate Constance.
Even your posts highlights, because of facts presented, the importance of the religious philosophy in the politics. Look at what you wrote about Mortimer Adler, for instance.
To you "Study and involvement in Christianity and Judaism is extremely necessary for a good life and a good community,"
which is a post modern kind of thing. civil religion, these are good because good for the society.
That is an argument to give pagan rulers persecuting Christianity, or people on the fence.
The real value lies in TRUTH, not merely in whether this is useful for society and living a good life whatever that means.
There are plenty of people who hate Agenda 21 and are not Christian. Look at the A-Number-One best start your education writer author of Behind the Green Mask, the lesbian and probably closet neo pagan Rosa Koire of democrats against Agenda 21. This is such an outrageous plan that people of no Christian faith or interest whatsoever can get up in arms against it.
But would you want those same people running the society you live in, writing its laws and educating your children or dictating to churches?
I think not.
It is not either NAM as religion warnings, or NWO (NAM as politics) warning but both/and.
Christine, would you please speak in logical English. I have no idea what you are suggesting. Maybe someone else can translate you.
It doesn't bother me that Rosa Koise is a lesbian. She has done more valuable work in fighting Agenda 21 than many well meaning Christians. Christine, uou are so jealous of what she has done and you haven't done that you slander her. Or maybe, being the New Ager that you are, you just want to attack her so people don't look at her message.
Anonymous @ 11:47
Your dead wrong in your second to last paragraph and by extension, your entire outlook.
First you expose the New Age for what it is; an amoral pseudo religion which intends to replace Judaism and Christianity. True.
But then you say; " but one can read the Bible over and over again and not have a clue as to how Agenda 21 is coming into the community or who signed Humanist Manifestos I and II. How can one be a good Watchman without knowing what to watch out for? "
That's a lie. And it's a lie which sets YOU up as the
lonely voice of better judgement and discernment for everyone. And, it's particularly ironic that you choose to use the term "Watchman" to describe what it is that you're trying to do, because the definition
of Watchman in this case is clearly a term from the Bible that you have so little regard for. see: Ezekiel.
In fact a thorough knowledge of the Bible is second only to a thorough surrender to the Lord as far as the defensive and offensive weapons needed to fight against evil in this world in all it's forms.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump of your statement.
You might as well be telling us all that we need to become lawyers, quickly, or we're all doomed.
It doesn't bother you that Rosa Koise is a lesbian ? You still don't know your right hand from your left,
and your "work" is in vain.
I do not slander Rosa Koire, she is openly out of the closet. When she was a speaker at a Tea Party event the introducer kind of mumbled incoherently about it, like, try to overlook this and see what she has to say.
My whole point is, that Agenda 21 is so outrageous that many who are New Age or immoral do not like it. This means there is a potential groundswell against it, that does not require depending on Christians of any category, or conservatives, to fight it. Radicals on the left are among the opposition.
Agenda 21 is ultimately so anti individual that even collectivists in theory don't like it. For instance, if your ideal is a homosexual or at least heterosexual fornicatory commune in the woods, watch out! Agenda 21 wants everyone out of the rural places eventually and crammed into dense housing.
If your ideal is a single family monogamous detatched dwelling with your own veggie garden and a dog in the yard, watch out! Agenda 21 wants to stop production of such housing in the immediate future.
OK Paul, tell me how reading the Bible warns people about the specifics of Agenda 21, the Alliance of Civilizations and its networked organizations, the animal rights movement, Sustainabiity, the African Union, etc. One has to learn about the specifics of so many secular operations before one can compare the information with what the Bible warns about. How does the Bible warn about the Futurist movement, Dominion theology, Lucis Trust, the UN, and so many other New Age networks and operations if one remain oblivious to the details of what is going on. One can't compare if one has nothing to compare. Almost all people have no clue as to what is going on in their local library, their local school district, the village hall, much less things on the state, national or international levels. They can remain decent, moral, kind, reverent people in their homes and their church communities without ever having any effect on what is going on around them, what is destroying the very things they want to protect for themselves and their families.
Yes, someone who is a lesbian can be correct about some things in their lives, just as some antisemites can be correct in how they live their lives and how they share information about some aspects of the world around them. Jew haters can be correct in their view of the Sustainability movement. It's how people like Alex Jones, David Icke, Tex Maars and numerous other individuals get followers. For instance, a Jew hater might write that communism is a bad political system, which is correct. When the Jew hater then writes that communism is a Jewish effort, one had better know that Judaism and not communism is the target for elimination, a much bigger picture of what is going on in some networks. Discernment is needed no matter what label is put on information.
New Age religion is part of the New Age plan, not the entire thing.
Why does it bother you that I use the term Watchman as it is used in the Bible. The Bible, at least how I follow it, is similar to the Constitution as people view it here in the US. The Constitution is much more specific as it applies to a particular time for a given group of people for governance guidelines. The Bible gives us the major moral guidelines and from who they are given for the morality we are to follow in a way that can be applied to all people at all times. The Constitution doesn't speak to the freedoms of people outside of abortion clinics to speak out. The Bible doesn't mention Agenda 21, one world government, etc., yet we were given it as a firm, non-changing place which we can turn to for guidance on what is morally valid when we are in a position to take a stand and judge what we will or not accept from those who claim to be leaders or even just neighbors, or even from those who claim to act as the right hand of God.
I don't know how you were raised, but I was raised to take a stand against the sin and leave the sinner in God's hands. The woman is not pushing her lesbian beliefs. When and if she does that, I would take a stand against that just as I take a stand against the actions of Jew hating individuals. It's something that is very hard to do. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Well thank you, first of all. for replying to my comment without using belittling, ad hominem insults.
I understand and accept that your reasons for frequenting this forum and my reasons are quite different; you see what happened leading up to WWII in Germany, when that demon-possessed monster and his band of, (we now know), homosexual cronies began to gain power. He spoke great swelling words of passionate hatred against the Jews and blamed them for everything that was wrong with their "Fatherland" at that time. He strong armed and co-opted many of the religious institutions and bent them into his plan with amazing effectiveness. How could these so-called Christian leaders have thrown their influence and their power behind that maniac ?
I'm sure I don't know all the details, but, for one thing, the average family man was a drunk and a mean one at that, apparently, in late 1930's Germany. Wife and children beating were the norm practically on a nightly basis, as I understand it. So the family unit was a mess to say the least. Violence, fear and bullying ruled the home front: demon alcohol.
Freud went on and on AND on about it, as did Wilhelm Reich his student and they tried to explain all the conditions that resulted in the Holocaust.
I've read most of Reich's books and they all have a backdrop of that war and the mental sickness that fed it.
Of course you're right. These conditions are rampant again. And the Nazi methodology is being used again, probably with much more effective mass mind control than before. ( It's Black Friday, QUICK! run out and buy a bunch of things that you don't need
and can't afford, RIGHT NOW ! )
I would just argue that there were many many nominal "Christians", ( the kind that use religion as a shield against criticism and exposure of their sinful lives ), hypocrites, basically, who jumped on board the Nazi express train for the same reason that they
attended a big showy cathedral every week. It was popular and the power seemed to be there.
I don't believe that REAL Christianity has ever been "in power" anywhere in the world yet. Someone told me that the majority of Bible believing Christians in America even today actually attend Bible study and Prayer meetings in private homes every week.
Please don't get me wrong, what you are fighting against is most definitely worth fighting against.
But the fine print in Agenda 21 is not something that
I can decipher. I'm sure that it's loaded to the gills with power grabbing pure evil. I believe that because my spirit bears witness, mainly because I have been given eyes to see and ears to hear. It's one of the gifts of the Spirit, called discernment. I didn't earn it.
My belief is that all this evil is going to come to fruition, and soon, and that there is nothing we can do to stop it. It's determined already. It's called the "time of Jacob's trouble" among other names.
My job is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to every living creature. It is work, you know.
And I'd also like to point out that far from being a last ditch, futile effort, prayer is very effective and very powerful.
The thing is, we need to pray for His will to be done, not ours.
There is an afterlife.
Death is not the end.
actually the new age religion IS the plan, the mere political stuff is an effort to rope things into a format that, using ecofascism and world peace as an excuse, can try to stamp out Christianity in particular, and anything else in general that gets in the way of the new age religion, which is worship of their evil spirits.
you got it backwards.
Christine,
Actually the new age religion and the politics of that agenda is one in the same thing in my mind. Agendas of many stripes and flavors have come down the pike begging the question of who should govern the inside and the outside of men. But the aim overall, is taking aim at God and all who would submit to need and desire His Will done rather than their own.
That is why the Cross of Christ is so disarming, cutting to the heart of the issue. (Not my will but Thine be done...)
That Mediation needed is the admission of a colassal fail on mankind's part-not good enough afterall..for the one with the power to create and sustain Eternal Eden is the One holding all the cards--an inherently unfair contest in the mind and heart of the proud...though called new age, is still the same old story of that battle of wills and the battle rages as long as men believe they can make it a good earth, a good life, a good forever, without Him...
Men must try the limits and kick against those goads (man, have they ever, so nothing new) until either surrendered to God (and Forgiven in that process)or succumb to death-proven unsuccessful-remaining unforgiven and destroyed in the trying. I think this is also what Paul is addressing in his comment-Eternity is at stake in all this wrangle. I assume we are agreed in this.
Also would like to comment that Bible-illiterate people (some call themselves christians because many profess in name only not in their living) are easy prey to fall in line with the world's agenda against God because they don't want to believe that battle real, and even if they do, refuse to know or be warned by the Holy Spirit where the battle lines are drawn. God is sorting people heart by heart by heart in this process.
To "Anonymous said..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFVFJ0iRRA&feature=relmfu
First instalment of an 8-part presentation by that rare thing, a moral (and Christian) financial professional, called "The economy is going to implode". All parts were uploaded last week.
@ 5:16 PM
I want to thank you for posting this. My wife and I watched this on Youtube .... and were stunned! One of the very best presentations on the mess this economy really is in that I have ever seen. Thanks again! Ray
I have read so many content concerning the unrest in the middle east and this writing is in fact a good post. keep it up.
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[Hi Constance. Saw this web piece & am sharing it. Ashton]
PRETRIB RAPTURE STEALTH !
Many evangelicals believe that Christ will "rapture" them to heaven years before the second coming and (most importantly) well BEFORE Antichrist and his "tribulation." But Acts 2:34, 35 reveal that Jesus is at the Father's right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His earthly foes at the second coming. And Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father "until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. ("The Rapture Question," by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn't dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! They were also too hot for John Darby - the so-called "father of dispensationalism" - to list in the scripture index in his "Letters"!)
Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The "rest" for "all them that believe" is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who'd be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel's posttrib resurrection!) It's amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the "great commission" for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
Many don't know that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this "rapture" was stretched forward and turned into an idolized separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which evangelical scholars overwhelmingly rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google "Walvoord Melts Ice" for more on this.
Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “X-Raying Margaret,” "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart," "Pretrib Rapture's Missing Lines," "Edward Irving is Unnerving," "The Unoriginal John Darby," "Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture," "The Real Manuel Lacunza," “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Famous Rapture Watchers," and "Morgan Edwards' Rapture View" – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).
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