Frankly, I don't know how much worse things can get. I am deeply fearful of God's wrathful and deserved judgment against our society for such open flaunting of his laws. Our noses have been rubbed in the homosexual agenda for years. Now the awful smoke of what God plainly in his word repeatedly labeled an "abomination" must be rising to the heavens.
May the Lord help us all. We are worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. They had as their judge, Abraham's cousin, Lot who "sat in their gate" with his "righteous soul vexed" by the abominations he witnessed.
These days those opposed to gay marriage and flagrant flaunting of thousands of years of cultural norms are usually disqualified from "sitting in the gate" (serving as judge, governor, mayor, whatever). At least Sodom & Gomorrah allowed one in open disapproval of their lifestyles to serve in public office.
These days we fine baseball players and media personalities for expressing disapproval.
May the Lord help us all!
CONSTANCE
104 comments:
I have to agree with you. I think the gay agenda is a weapon aimed directly at Christianity as we will be forced to choose to follow this agenda or Jesus. Eventually, churches which will not marry gay couples will lose the authority to create state recognized marriages. (When a pastor marries someone he's acting under color of state law and cannot unlawfully discriminate.)
I agree with you as well on the issue of polygamy, but let's take the legal implications even further. Why cannot two brothers marry? And then why not a brother and sister? At that point you're discriminating against the second couple because of gender, which shouldn't matter.
This is the express train to Absurdistan. Welcome aboard.
Thesis, synthesis, antithesis
Sadly, this is the reason why the vote was so close and it finally passed....
This year, amid a major push by gay rights advocates and Gov. Andrew Cuomo, spent the past two weeks negotiating the language of the amendments, which include a clause prohibiting a judge from striking down the exemptions without striking down the marriage rights, explicit application to local non-discrimination laws, and language that would prohibit government entities from penalizing religious organizations or their officers from penalty at the hands of government.
I am also perplexed at the vast number of youngsters (hetero)`living together` shunning marriage-and yet the gays desperately wants to be married? Weird beyond weird. What is it to them to `walk down the isle?` Is it the `feeling` or is it something in the financials benefiting them as `couples`. Is this what the cohabits are missing?
Melinda
Go to the comments in this website to see the connection between what happened in NY and the New Age movement.
http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2011/05/homosexual-network.html
Also please check what I wrote in the previous thread about the intellectual soup that we live in. I would hope some would comment on my view of things here in this thread.
Thanks Dorothy! Your explanation of the New Age soup assists me in understanding how to approach those trapped in the soup! Thanks
melinda
yes Paul I agree with you
Here is an article purporting our original heritage as androgynous beings:
http://tinyurl.com/66gwwbq
and more:
http://tinyurl.com/3psw5s8
Thanks for your comment Melinda. Even after all of the years I've been at it it's encouraging to know when I've helped someone get a fresh view of things by something I've shared.
To everyone: You may not be interested in everything shared, but when something catches your eye here, please let the person who shared know you appreciate their efforts. It's one way to keep the blog going. Agree or disagree, dialogue is good.
Ghostly apparition of entire city appears over Chinese river
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008161/Ghostly-mirage-appears-river-Huanshan-City-China.html#ixzz1QPpJMhN2
From "News in Brief," top, upper right.
* * *
EU parliament adopts position on economic governance
24.06.2011 @ 10:20 CET
The EU Parliament has adopted its position on six bills centralising much fiscal policy decision-making to the EU from national parliaments. MEPs have toughened up sanctions and fines and backed more automatic action by the EU Commission against delinquent countries
http://euobserver.com/
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING
" Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."
The second verse is at
http://www.potw.org/archive/potw351.html
This was written before WWII.
This comes to mind as I think about the business world today and the passing of the homosexual marriage bill in NY.
Why? Because I see the stabilizing center is not holding.
In the business world those spending recklessly in government have believed there will always be people starting businesses, making the economy go so they can tax and take. The center would be those responsible individuals who start and run successful businesses. They seem to have disappeared.
Where homosexual marriage is concerned, the center would be those responsible individuals in the community who take marriage seriously, raise responsible children and teach their children responsible and moral lessons, thereby holding the community together. The homosexual community has never shown those traits even though individuals might. The bill is another nail destroying the center.
Is the center holding? I don't think so. We only need to look at the culture around us which is a degenerate, morally diseased one.
http://tinyurl.com/6klecj5
"Lukianoff and FIRE have an admirable record of defending students’ and faculty members’ free speech regardless of their point of view, but anyone familiar with their work knows that the most frequent targets of campus disciplinary groups are male, conservative, religious, or some combination thereof."
It takes a great deal of courage, moral strength and energy to stand for values that have stood the test of time when everything around one is breaking down. After a while most people just say, "The heck with it. I'll just go along with the current trends. It's easier. Why fight it."
Oh those foolish people who think there will always be people to depend on when everything is breaking down.
Dorothy
I went back and read your post regarding the Intellectual Soup.
Since we are in the soup and since it's difficult to see those parts of our culture that are NA, both obvious and subtle, can you identify some of the qualities of our culture that are NA expressions. I'm aware of some but may not be aware of others.
Thanks,
Dave in CA
Does anyone still believe that there's not a committed agenda in this area?
Look at this link:
http://tinyurl.com/6645wln
or
http://www.mail.com/news/world/518392-him-her-preschool-fights-gender-bias.html#.23140-stage-teaser1-3
My question is--what exactly do you call the child? Truthfully--if you have to go through this much linguistic contortion--wouldn't that give you a hint that this is neither rational or the proper way of "bringing up a child"?
Note that he use of the made-up pronoun "hen" to designate a person--and that it's favored by the Swedish lesbian community.
There was a similar online story about a month ago about a couple who refused to tell their latest baby's gender to the child's grandparents. Only they, the pediatrician, and the kid's older brother knew.
There was a cute picure of the older sibling kissing the younger one--I honestly thought that the pic was of an older sister lovingly kissing "her" baby brother. The child had bangs, pigtails, and was wearing pink, and sometimes wore dresses.
It seems that the parents saw no problem in letting the kid excpress "him"self. I put that in quotations not because the child was not biologically a male; but because the parents didn't want to "stifle" the child's ability to be what he wanted to be and not be constrained by those horrible gender sterotypes that non-enlightened society wanted to foster on their little darling.
Interesting--but I don't see this turning out well. It's just another committed, well-thought-out, minutely-plotted part of the agenda of advancing the "enlightened spirit" of the evolved transhumanist, I believe.
Seems that transhumanists will all be pan-sexuals, I guess.
not to worry gang, ole solana and his ITER project will save us... that dude can bring fire down from the sky. hes gonna fix the global energy crisis and restore all the habitats of the whole entire earf! see ther now doesn't ever body feel a hole lot better now./ guess who constance???/ ps what does everyone suppose about comet ELENIN approaching? mentioned over at Unsealded prophecy on adamantines site? this is gettin' good, ...gooder than it used to be, as in even more exciting.bible prophecy gets it! tony in vt.
i'll tell you what, i'd better get to bed dog-gone it before i flub up at work tomarrow from groovin' on prophecy all nigth long. whoops, see there, all NIGHT long. but not before i activate my prayer capsule.... see you there
The Ghostly Mirage can be very unnerving to superstitious people. It seems to be scientifically possible. Also, with photoshop and other techniques images can be altered to be real. Wonder if laser beams can create an appiration like this? Maybe a dry run of things to come? I think I will stick to the scientific explanation. Must say I never heard of it before thanks for sharing!
melinda
Ideas coming from the New Age movement that don't have the label.
..Too many people destroy the earth's resources
..Women are better caretakers of society and the earth than men
..Sex is just a natural inclination that can't be governed
..government people know what is best for the population
..Animals are equivalent to humans
..all problems need to be dealt with on a global level
..education establishments are not to be questioned
..sacrifices need to be made by humans for any and all levels of the environment
..science supercedes religion
..there is no sin as people are basically good
..recycling has no flaws
..most religious ideas are questionable and primitive
..religion is useful when tied to ideas of social justice
..the idea of God is a primitive idea
..all religions have the same set of values, just in different packages
..socialization is more important than knowledge
..anyone who disagrees with "established" information is
not mentally stable
..alternative medicine offers more solutions than doctors' information
..you can totally control your environment by positive
thinking
..Anyone on your side doesn't lie; anyone who opposes your ideas is a liar
..history can teach you nothing
..Pagan and occult ideas have a connection to knowing and understanding nature and people
..the body beautiful supercedes the beautiful mind
..the idea of God is a primitive idea
..All morality is relative
..every idea presented as new is better than an old idea
..nobody can manipulate you without your permission
..every member of a minority group is weak and needs to be protected from rich white people
..the UN people can be depended on to bring peace to the world
These ideas are brought to the attention of the general public by credentialed individuals. No one is forced to believe them. Opposition doesn't get a hearing so people are led to believe that what is presented is the only valid way of thinking about a topic.
Perhaps someone can idea to the to this quick reply.
Now Istanbul, Turkey, a largely Islamic country is having huge homosexual demonstrations!
http://tinyurl.com/3gmrfom
Dorothy,
Good list. Off the top of my head I would add:
-- Darwinian evolution is considered fact
-- reincarnation is considered fact
And, while I agree regarding sin, there is one caveat:
-- the only sin is the sin of separation/being separative. All adherents to religious beliefs which are exclusivistic (which, in reality, is all religions) are considered separative. There are "many paths," not just one, according to NA.
The Lord instituted two Sacraments: Baptism and Communion. That's it. Marriage in the historic church was an agreement between the families involved and the Civil authoities. Let them handle "gay marriages"- with God as Witness- and let the Wrath of God fall, as appropriate. The Lord of Hosts is not mocked. Guillermo
Dorothy
Excellent, thank you!
Craig thanks for your additions.
I've made a copy and will review it from time to time.
Once listed, you can separate the trees from the forest. The list certainly reflects our culture and what it promotes - even though many don't believe but don't get a voice.
Dave in CA
Anon 4:22
About the ghostly apparition of
buildings , etc.;
It occurs to me that anyone can now
purchase high tech, high res
projectors at any electronics store.
They will project anything from
TV to your own home movies
to, why not, photos of city
skylines.
I would think that if someone
were to point one at a hazy sky
or some low clouds, that the
images would be there, but
would be...ghostly.
Just a guess.
Craig,
Good additions. Regarding separation, that's what I was referring to when I used the word Socialization, although you said it better.
Dave,
Thanks for the compliment. Since I live in the intellectual soup also, I had to work at it. I'm sure others can add their insights to the list.
Hillary Clinton has now also backed the Gay Marriage law.
Constance
My personal belief was that marriage was ordained of God -- not just "an agreement between two families."
"What GOD hath joined together, let no man put asunder."
I'm in no position to throw stones at others on marriage issues, but in my advanced age, the wisdom of God's position is becoming clearer and clearer to me.
Constance
Actually, Jesus established SEVEN sacraments and marriage (between one man and one woman) is one of them.
God will not be mocked...
Lisa
Please, PLEASE take a look at this video. It's for real, I swear! ~ They are creating a vaccine to cure religious fundamentalism!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxm2IIUoEC4&feature=related
Oops, sorry for above. I think it's a hoax. Apologies.
Lisa: I hereby challenge you to find any scriptural references to confirm your claim that Jesus instituted seven Sacraments. Scripture is the only basis for sound Doctrine, no? Take your time. Guillermo
Marriage= 1 man+1 woman. That's a given. But it's not a Sacrament instituted by the Lord.
He certainly blessed marriage by performing his first public miracle at the wedding at Cana, didn't He?
Sorry, guys, it was Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve. Nor was it Madame and Eve!
Constance
Those New Agers having a good laugh at elderly Harold Camping's expense should look at themselves. Here's a New Age apocalyptic cult -- a French city where New Agers are flocking to avoid their 2012 prophecies:
http://tinyurl.com/43rbwlv
Constance
Fulfilled Prophecy.com ("Herb Peters" link from my site) has an article up stating that Catherine Ashton has been given until September to shape up or lose her job.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391667/Baroness-Ashton-facing-axe-250-000-EU-job.html?printingPage=true
Constance
http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Sacraments.html
A list of the sacraments with references to the New Testament.
So many articles cross my path that I feel I should pass on. I don't because I feel most people aren't ready to face the heavy changes taking place.
One of the women on my email list sent this on and I feel responsible for sending it on. Trever Loudon is pulling many things together. Read him.
http://trevorloudon.com/2011/06/the-fascist-stealth-of-agenda-21/
What happened to Drudge? I just linked to that site and it is incredibly empty!!! Let's hope it is just a moment of emptiness. With Beck almost gone, just who are we to turn to for uncensored information.
I see that Lady Ashton's EU salary is 250,000 British pounds per year, higher they say than President Obama's. The reason it is so high is that clearly the salary was set intended for Javier Solana. Germany, per the article referenced by FP is threatening to pull the plug by September if changes are not made.
I rather suspect that if she were paid by the migraine that 250,000 pounds per year of moneys originally slated for Javier Solana would be utterly insufficient!
Constance
Tony Blair - a one liner amongst a Daily Mail UK press article reads;
"Earlier this month, he made a brazen application to become the new president of Europe when he floated his own scheme to make the head of the EU an elected post."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2008883/How-Blairs-ships-pass-night.html#ixzz1Qc1qMUk0
Tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/636r2qr
Despite all the gay noise and the attempts to deny freedom of speech, heterosexual promiscuity is a far greater threat to society than homosexual promiscuity, because it undermines family stability. The gay fraction of the population remains tiny.
As for marriage, it has been nationalised. Back in the ancient Middle East and other cultures, the couple *declared themselves* married by taking their vows, and then informed the political authorities (who have to know because of eg inheritance law). When a registrar declares a couple married he is really declaring that the State *recognises* their marriage, whatever he (and even they) think.
Hi Guillermo,
First, I will need you to show me where in the bible it says that "Scripture is the only basis for sound Doctrine". "Take your time".
Lisa
I have been sounding alarms here and on my radio program about Peter Zarcone, an ardent follower of the Manifest Son of God teachings of Bill Britton. If anybody has any doubts or harbors beliefs that the MSOG are pure and innocent, they need to listen to this BILL BRITTON, "delivered in a church" sermon on "Lucifer the Shining One." I knew it was bad, I didn't know it was THIS BAD!
evil, evil, EVIL, EVIL, EVIL:
http://tinyurl.com/44879u3 (Text)
Listen and download audios here:
http://tinyurl.com/3mppwvn
http://tinyurl.com/43fkvj5
David Ebaugh, also:
http://www.davidebaugh.info/Whoisluciferapr85.pdf
If these things disappear as they are prone to do once publicly pointed to, I've got them well archived in multiple places!
Constance
Perspective on the days leading up to the New York gay marriage vote:
http://www.massresistance.org/
Interesting that only a democratic senator from the Bronx had the conviction and desire to fight the homosexual agenda.
In the late 1960s, early 1970s, I worked for a saintly Democratic politician in Michigan, House of Representatives Speaker William A. Ryan who single handedly held much of this type of evil back in Michigan for many years during his tenure with the Legislature. To portray all Democrats as "Godless" is untrue and unfair. To be certain, there are fewer of them now then in the days I was active.
Constance
Typical Manifest Sons of God doctrinal teachings regarding LUCIFER and SATAN:
Satan is not in a fight with my GOD. He does what my GOD says. Can you
find any scripture that says, Satan is God's enemy? I can't. Yes, Satan is our
adversary, not GOD'S. (I Pet. 5:8). DAVID EBAUGH
http://www.davidebaugh.info/Whoisluciferapr85.pdf
And from Bill Britton himself in his sermon, "Lucifer, the Shining One":
Satan poses no problem for God. God could destroy him at any time. God binds his hands daily. It is God who sets his boundaries and limits his power --- it was, in fact, God who created him in the first place --- and that was for one purpose and one purpose only: For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS! Beloved, when that purpose is accomplished, Satan will have completed his course as an INSTRUMENT in the hands of God who has everything under control . . . and then will his end come.
http://tinyurl.com/44879u3
Constance
Rich Peterson sent this on.
http://townhall.com/columnists/frankturek/2011/06/28/sex_at_work/page/full/ or
http://tinyurl.com/4yb4fm8
A man was fired for his Christian beliefs even though he didn't speak about them in the workplace.
The words tolerance and diversity are used but aren't meant. I think reading what Bailey said about that which causes separation is evil is more spot on.
There is this whole list of ideas that the New Age change agents have have made acceptable. If you admit to having ideas that are different from the list, you just might be in a position to cause others to think differently from the list, causing separation.
If the change agents have set an idea in stone, an idea like abortion, you are not allowed to have your own thoughts about abortion because you might cause separation.
The idea of euthanasia hasn't been set in stone yet, so you can disagree publicly.
So, one better not have ideas that go against what you must think. If you do, there is a chance you will cause separation by getting another person to separate from accepted group think.
New Agers aren't the only ones who pull that stunt. It's a tactic of many who don't want to see their control challenged.
Isn't it about time the pastors ignored Big Brother's intrusion into marriage? The State should have never been allowed into it to begin with. When you marry in a church it's absurd that you should feel the need to have the blessings of Leviathan. Leviathan took control and forced us to get their approval and then we are party to their contract and our children are then in the control of the State. Maybe Constance, being a lawyer, can tell us the history of how the State stuck its nose into marriage. I have read that this came about because government wanted to control who could marry whom. As in whites marrying blacks and the like.
I apologize, I was not trying to portray ALL democrats as godless I was trying to note the irony that those republicans who claimed to stand for family values were showed up by someone from the party whose platform is much less friendly to the traditional family.
Of course people may disagree about the role of government in peoples lives and be godly.
Dorothy
I read with deep interest and sadness the article you referenced. I have consulted with that company on and off for years and know the push for what they feel is diversity, but not giving any attention to other points of view. Like many companies and individuals, diversity means they endorse those who are different and confront those who don't share the view that deviant behavior (being different) is always good. Since the person in the article isn't an employee, he probably doesn't have much cause for a lawsuit.
-- Constance, is that true?
I know very well their push for "diversity" and have often thought how I would respond if this happened to me while working at this company. It makes me angry.
The real underlying belief is that they need talented people / want to sell products and don't want to shut out any group no matter what they believe, unless you are a Christian or are Jewish and have a different worldview. For many companies, it is more about making money than strongly held beliefs in diversity, while individual employees may actually share these beliefs. If the company starts losing money due to their endorsement of this form of diversity they would suddenly develop different beliefs.
Since it is unlikely that Christians (in a large enough group) will stand against these practices, it will probably only change, sadly, when they start offending Muslims who detest homosexuality. This company is going through a re-org due to waning sales and profits – and other problems.
I hope they keep this injustice in the news as it’s blatantly wrong and disgusting to most people. This company does care about bad PR.
Dave in CA
US churches in danger
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1381022
US to resume limited contact with Muslim Brotherhood
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/us-usa-egypt-brotherhood-idUSTRE75T0GD20110630
Do you think its so they can tell the Muslims not to bomb churches?
http://www.veteransresources.org/2011/06/veterans-affairs-bans-mention-of-god-at-funerals-for-vets/
Veterans Affairs Bans Mention of God at Funerals for Vets in Houston as well as other actions
This is rightly getting a lot of press. I guess the Muslims and the left don't like churches.
Lisa: How do we know about God? The Old Testament. Christians get their Doctrine from the Old and New Testament. There is no new Doctrinal Truth. It's fixed. That's axiomatic. For those with "itching ears", there are numerous religious teachers to listen to, but along with them, you may get Seducing Spirits and Doctrines of Devils. SOLA SCRIPTURA! You can't go wrong! Guillermo
George Kenney, Hypnotizing Principal, Allegedly Lied About Putting Students In Trance
A Florida high school principal defied school orders to stop hypnotizing students and lied about casting spells on two students who later committed suicide and another who perished in a car crash, according to a report.
Investigators found that North Port High School Principal George Kenney hypnotized up to 75 people, including students, staff and parents, the Sarasota Herald Tribune reported.
Kenney came under fire after student Wesley McKinley killed himself in April and his parents began questioning the one-on-one hypnosis sessions that took place weeks before their son died.
The report revealed that the principal had also hypnotized Brittany Palumbo five months before her May suicide. The report said that Kenney entranced Marcus Freeman twice in the weeks before the student died in an auto accident in March.
Earlier reports said Kenney performed hypnosis to help students focus in class. The school district permitted the principal to demonstrate hypnosis in front of groups in psychology class, but was unaware that he secretly had one-on-one sessions with students, according to ABC News
According to the new report, Kenney lied to school officials and investigators about his private hypnosis, but later confessed. His lawyer Mark Zimmerman said his client misspoke under questioning because of the stress.
The school district has denied there's any link between they hypnosis and suicides, ABC reported.
http://tinyurl.com/3nrppdd
Well, Guillermo @ 5:28 PM....
I guess you did need a lot of time to come up with THAT answer!!!!
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Guillermo,
You didn't answer my question. For Sola Scriptura to be valid, it would HAVE to SOMEWHERE in the bible say that scripture alone is all you need.
"You can't go wrong" with the 3 pillars of the Catholic Church; Scripture, Tradition and Authority (magisterium). You can most definitely go wrong with "sola scriptura" - 33,000 protestant denominations that don't agree on bible interpretation is one OBVIOUS result. Who is correct? There is only one truth.
Please, for your own sake read this:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
God bless you!
Lisa
Dominique Strauss Kahn case near collapse....
http://tinyurl.com/6ctohtc
Sola Scriptura ? Absolutely.
The question should be:
Where in the Bible does it say that
there are other, or many other, books
such as Papal bulls or Vatican
Councils, that are equally
authoritative to the Bible which can
also be used as reference for godly
living and / or teaching in matters
of the faith ?
The first chapter of Joshua says;
"This book of the Law shall not
depart out of my mouth, but I will
meditate on it both day and night
and do according to all that is
written therein.
The Psalms are replete with a
steady stream of references to
the Torah as being the only
Word Of God.
Try reading Psalms 119, which is
divided into 22 sections and which
repeats the themes of God's
commandments, Gods law, His
statutes, His ordinances and
His Word.
The book of Revelations says
at the very end of God's Holy
Word; ( Holy means separate,
as in, set aside from ALL others):
22:18) For I testify to every man
that heareth the words of the
prophesy of this book, if any
man shall add unto these things
God shall add unto him the
plagues that are written in this
book.
Jesus quoted or referenced
the sacred Torah exclusively
in virtually every
statement that he made. The
Sermon on the Mount, with
the Beatitudes, can all
be traced back to the Torah
and the Prophets.
II Timothy 3:16 says:
All scripture is given by
inspiration of God and is
profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness.
But the more I look into it the
more references there are that
jump out at me which clearly
say that the Bible is God's
Holy Word. These few that I've
noted are just the tip of the
iceberg. It seems ridiculous
to me that anyone would claim
otherwise.
Anyone who thinks that the
Roman Catholic Church has
written anything that possesses
the same authority as the Holy
scriptures is standing on very
thin ice in my opinion.
I can't believe that this is even
a debate. Isn't the Bible enough
for you ?
Here are some words or terms
that you actually won't find in
the Bible:
Pope
Vatican
Holy See
Cardinal ( with fish head hats )
Mother of God
Rosary
Transubstantiation
weeping madonna
the selling of "indulgences"
statues of Jesus
statues or paintings of God
and on and on...
Isn't the Bible enough
for you ?
Whose interpretation of the Bible are you referring to, Paul? As Lisa has pointed out, there are thousands upon thousands of different ones.
Anon 7:09
They are not all different interpretations,
but they are different TRANSLATIONS,
each supposedly with the intention
of rendering the original Hebrew as
perfectly as possible into all the other
languages .
Don't be fooled.
Here are a few more references
to chew on, though you obviously
didn't read the last ones.
II Kings 22:13 says, upon
rediscovering the Holy Scriptures;
"Go ye, inquire of the Lord for me
and for the people, and for all
Judah, concerning the words of
this book that is found: for
great is the wrath of the Lord that
is kindled against us, because
our fathers have not hearkened
unto the words of this book to
do according to all that which is
written concerning us'
Nehemiah 9 says
"...then all Israel returned to the
Torah."
(One should really read the whole
9th chapter of Nehemiah. This one
chapter would be enough for me
to believe in the Scriptures exclusively)
See: Proverbs , chapter 4
Isaiah 8:20 says
"To the Law and to the testimony:
if they speak not according to
this word, it is because there is no
light in them"
Jeremiah 10:34 says
The customs of the people are vain
Jeremiah 17:5 says
Cursed is the man who trusts in man
Hebrews 10:7 says
Then said I, Lo, I come ( in the
volume of the book it is written
of me ) to do thy will, oh God
To Paul
Bravo! Bravo! I applaud your honesty and braveness to bring such things up on this blog.
The argument for the refutation of sola scriptura...
http://www.catholicculture.org/cult
ure/library/view.cfm?recnum=7185
Amen, Paul. Years ago, when I left the R.C. Church, my parents asked why. "Because I cannot tolerate false doctrine!" From Catholic Altar Boy-to-Sola Scriptura. It's been quite a journey- with eternal ramifications- and God as my Pilot. Guillermo
Sola scriptura is NOT taught in the bible. No biblical passage teaches that Scripture is the formal authority or rule of faith in isolation from the Church and Tradition.
The "Word of God" refers to oral teaching also. What the apostles / disciples of Jesus spoke and taught was the 'Word of God' regardless of whether or not all of their utterances were recorded later as written Scripture.
Mr. Guillermo (@ 1:08 PM)
GOD will be the Judge of that...and certainly not YOU!!!
(Meanwhile, let's just hope and pray that your 'plane' doesn't crash and burn.)
http://www.hillel.org/jewish/archives/shemot/yitro/yitro_2008.htm
"Jethro plays a crucial role in this section of the Torah, when he helps to council Moses during attempts to serve as a mediator when disputes arose. Moses was handling all of these problems himself, and Jethro realizes this is far too much work for Moses to handle without any assistance. Jethro suggests that Moses appoint other Jews to serve as judges and leaders for the groups of thousands, hundreds, fifty, and ten so that these other leaders can handle lesser disputes."
Not every issue finds a parallel in a single section of the Bible. Often answers are found by using a combination of sections. In addition, the history of the Bible does not say every man interprets the words in it on their own when faced with a decision.
Guillermo,
This one is for you:
http://chnetwork.org/2011/05/fr-brian-w-harrison-logic-and-the-foundations-of-protestant-faith/
There are hundreds of similar stories to be found onlilne.
Sola Scriptura is a Latin term invented
by men to try to usurp power from
the Word of God.
The words sola scriptura are nowhere
in the Bible because it's a Latin term.
Did you read any of the Bible quotes
that I just listed ?
The IDEA of the Holy written Scriptures
being infallabe and the words ( and
works ) of MEN as being very fallable,
is most certainly taught all through
the Bible.
You are being willfully ignorant,
anon 1:39.
What part of "in the volume of a
BOOK I come" sounds like it includes
any oral tradition which didn't
make it into the Bible ?
Which part of "concerning the words
of this BOOK that is found" _is vague
in II Kings ?
Jesus also said:
"Why do you follow the traditions
of men and not the COMMANDMENTS
of God?"
He was speaking to the scribes and
Pharasees who would eventually
crucify him. He had already told
his disciples that they would. They
were THE religious leaders of the day.
Those very Scribes and Pharasees
had, at that point, a long oral Tradition
called the Mishna, which, after
his murder on the cross, they finally
decided to write down. That was when
they were in exile after the Romans
burned down Jerusalem.(70AD)
At that point they knew that this
Jesus whom they had crucified,
was indeed the Son of God. So they
wrote down their invented oral
tradition and told a few more choice lies
about Jesus Christ the Savior of mankind,
which couldn't possibly have been in
the oral tradition previously, even though
they still, to this day, claim that the
oral tradition goes back to Moses.
But Jesus said: "Before Abraham was,
I AM"
Again I ask, isn't the Bible good enough
for you ? It apparently isn't, yet you
don't have trouble believing an ever-
evolving oral tradition.
Weird.
Paul,
Brian Harrison was once a Protestant who held a negative view of Catholicism and like you, clung to Sola Scriptura. He eventually came to believe:
When I got down to making a serious attempt to explore the implications of this rock-bottom dogma of the Reformers, I could not avoid the conclusion that it was rationally indefensible. This is demonstrated in the following eight steps, which embody nothing more than simple, commonsense logic and a couple of indisputable, empirically observable facts about the Bible:
1. The Reformers asserted Proposition A: “All revealed truth is to be found in the inspired Scriptures.” However, this principle is quite useless unless we know which books are meant by the “inspired Scriptures.” After all, many different sects and religions have many different books, which they call “inspired Scriptures.”
2. The theory we are considering, when it talks of “inspired Scriptures,” means in fact those sixty-six books that are bound and published in Protestant Bibles. For convenience we shall refer to them from now on simply as “the sixty-six books.”
3. The precise statement of the theory we are examining thus becomes Proposition B: “All revealed truth is to be found in the sixty-six books.”
4. It is a fact that nowhere in the sixty-six books themselves can we find any statements telling us which books make up the entire corpus of inspired Scripture. There is no complete list of inspired books anywhere within their own pages, nor can such a list be compiled by putting isolated verses together.
This would be the case (a) if you could find verses like “Esther is the Word of God,” “This Gospel is inspired by God,” “The Second Letter of Peter is inspired Scripture,” and so on, for all of the sixty-six books and (b) if you could also find a biblical passage stating that no books other than these sixty-six were to be held as inspired. Obviously, nobody could even pretend to find all this information about the canon of Scripture in the Bible itself.
5. It follows that Proposition B — the very foundation of all Protestant Christian faith — is neither found in Scripture nor can be deduced from Scripture in any way. Since the sixty-six books are not even identified in Scripture, much less can any further information about them be found there (for example, the statement that all revealed truth is contained in them). In short, we must affirm Proposition C: “Proposition B is an addition to the sixty-six books.”
6. It follows immediately from the truth of Proposition C that Proposition B cannot itself be revealed truth. To assert that it is would involve a self-contradictory statement: “All revealed truth is to be found in the sixty-six books, but this revealed truth itself is not found there.”
cont...
7. Could it be the case that Proposition B is true but is not revealed truth? If that is the case, then it must be either something that can be deduced from revealed truth or something that natural human reason alone can discover without any help from revelation.
The first possibility is ruled out because, as we saw in steps 4 and 5, B cannot be deduced from Scripture, and to postulate some other revealed extra-scriptural premise from which B might be deduced would contradict B itself.
The second possibility involves no self-contradiction, but it is factually preposterous, and I doubt whether any Protestant has seriously tried to defend it — least of all those traditional Protestants who strongly emphasize the corruption of man’s natural intellectual powers as a result of the Fall.
Human reason might well be able to conclude prudently and responsibly that an authority that itself claimed to possess the totality of revealed truth was in fact justified in making that claim, provided that this authority backed up the claim by some very striking evidence. (Catholics, in fact, believe that their Church is precisely such an authority.) But how could reason alone reach that same well-founded certitude about a collection of sixty-six books that do not even lay claim to what is attributed to them?
The point is reinforced when we remember that those who attribute the totality of revealed truth to the sixty-six books, namely Protestant church members, are very ready to acknowledge their own fallibility — whether individually or collectively — in matters of religious doctrine. All Protestant churches deny their own infallibility as much as they deny the pope’s.
8. Since Proposition B is neither revealed truth nor a truth that can be deduced from revelation nor a naturally knowable truth, it is not true at all. Therefore, the basic doctrine for which the Reformers fought is simply false.
Thank you, anon. 5:55!!!
Anon 5:55
Your calculus is missing the most
important factor of all, namely;
There is a God in heaven who is
omniscient. He knows everything,
even the intent of each persons
heart. He is also omnipotent. That
means all powerful
Your "sixty six books" is just the
Septuagint without the apocrypha.
This hasn't changed in nearly two
thousand years in spite of
the type of arrogance that you
display in your shallow attempt at
Hegelian logic.
So where is God in your logic ?
Is he too impotent to direct the
dissemination of his will in the
face of his enemies ?
Or is He out of touch with the
affairs of men and didn't notice
the attempt at a broadside attack
on His Word ?
On judgement day will those
"If A=B then C such and such"
arguments even be attempted
by you or anyone else ?
The fear of the Lord is the
beginning of wisdom.
You can question Gods' authority
all you want in this life but...
"It is appointed to all men to
die once, but after this comes
the judgement."
From Fox News (07/01/11):
Episcopal church in Maryland to convert to Catholicism
http://tinyurl.com/3vhlqye
So, Paul - that same question could also be turned around and asked of you....
'Where is God in YOUR logic?'(or even in your heart?)
Sadly, your posts are often filled with venom toward others.
Search from Genesis to Revelation - Scripture never says that Scripture is the sole infallible authority for God's Word. Scripture also mandates the use of tradition. This fact alone disproves sola Scriptura.
Think about this!! You will have to humble yourself and be intellectually honest with yourself, but it will be worth it in the end.
Pax!
Hi Paul,
Yes, God knows everything. He knows our hearts. He knows how much of an effort we make to understand his will for us. And he gave us the ability to know truth. Your comments don't even make sense...I'm sad that you are unable to see this.
One question - How did the books of the Bible get into the Bible? A problem for Sola Scriptura (or scripture alone) is the canon of the New Testament. There's no "inspired table of contents" in Scripture that tells us which books belong and which ones don't. That information comes to us from outside Scripture. Our knowledge of which books comprise the canon of the New Testament must be infallible; if not, there's no way to know for sure if the books we regard as inspired really are inspired. It must be binding; otherwise folks would be free to have their own customized canon containing those books they take a fancy to and lacking the ones they don't. And it must be part of divine revelation; if it's not it's merely a tradition of men, and if that were so, Protestants would be forced into the intolerable position of championing a canon of purely human origin. So the Protestant position is that divine revelation and guidance was a one time shot. God revealed his scripture and then left it up to each person to interpret the scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If that is the case, then why is it that the Holy Spirit provides so many different "guided" interpretations of the scripture? The Holy Spirit is all powerful and I believe more consistent than the existence of a vast number of Christian denominations would lead us to believe. Overlooking the fact that nowhere in the Bible does it say that scripture alone is all that is necessary, here are a few passages that specifically make it clear that there is more to faith than simple view of the scriptures.
"Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." 2 Thessalonians 2:15
We are taught to hold fast to traditions taught either orally or by letter. Yes the scriptures are important, but they were not all that we are to learn from.
"We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us." 2 Thessalonians 3:6
Once again, another example of where teaching is stressed as well as the acceptance of oral tradition.
"I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you." 1 Corinthians 11:2
Apostolic tradition once again is held in high esteem, at least by Paul. So much is said about upholding traditions. If scripture were so central to the Protestant faith, why would traditions be discarded?
"Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, 'Do you understand what you are reading?' He replied, 'How can I, unless someone instructs me?" Acts 8:30-31
Even the scripture tells us that it is not self revealing. We require instruction. Another good example of this is the number of ways a particular scripture passage is interpreted by the different Protestant denominations. If private interpretation were proper, would not the Holy Spirit ensure that interpretations were consistent.
George Anne
No one is questioning 'God's authority,' Paul....only YOURS!!!
You Catholics are extremely tiresome.
And you Catholic bashers need to get over yourselves, stop obsessing, and just get a life!!!
My faith is determined by a combination of scripture, whatever Glenn Beck says, and whatever Fox News says. Without Glenn Beck who's gonna help me determine how to apply scripture to George Soros. Glenn Beck is my pope.
Re: "Glenn Beck is my pope."
If that's true, we're all in deep doo-doo. LOL
Poor Glenn can't even handle being verbally harassed at a picnic by a few rude New Yorkers.
How to identify genetically modified food at the supermarket...
http://tinyurl.com/3p3ed4s
Terror attack this weekend? FBI and U.S. Intelligence gearing up for possible July 4th incident.
"Officials caution that there is no specific, credible threat of an impending attack as Americans head into the Fourth of July holiday, but their growing caution is evidenced by a series of recent bulletins they’ve sent local law enforcement."
For more...
http://tinyurl.com/3oo9sg9
New York Post (07/02/11)...
Former IMF chief Dominque Strauss-Kahn's accuser ('the maid') was working as a prostitute at the hotel.
Prosecutors list a litany of lies, scam.
http://tinyurl.com/6ybtcz4
Been busy this week catching up on things -- happy 4th of July to USA readers!
Constance
Just FYI - the planning for the protests at the NATO and G8 summits in Chicago next May 2012 is already being planned. Look at the list of the participants.
http://www.fightbacknews.org/2011/6/25/protests-called-nato-and-g8-summits-chicago-may-15-22-2012
http://tinyurl.com/6csbsko
Read Thomas M'Crie 'The Life of John Knox' if you want an idea of what the catholic church put the Scottish reformers through and what the message of the reformers was. The essential message was salvation by grace through faith and nothing else.
The catholics hated the message and united with an evil queen to kill the messengers. Never mind Sola Scriptura and all of that. If the catholics here want to dispute that from Scripture and history, we can do that.
For protestants, arguing the Bible is useless. Read the comments. Catholics adamantly deny the Bible in favor of the church. You can't argue with anyone based on what you believe if they don't believe it. The smart ones will work to separate you from your faith by suggesting that the Bible and your belief in it is not relevant.
They're good at it because they know we non-catholics assume we are an offshoot of them. We aren't. They hid the truth of the Gospel from people for hundreds of years in order to control politics, religion and the individual.
When the truth finally broke out and Scripture was translated into languages people could actually understand, there was a mass exodus from the catholic church. It is called the Reformation.
People discovered the freedom and simplicity of the Gospel and were murdered for it. Jock Purves wrote an excellent book called 'Sweet Believing'. It's short and the print is big. If you want to see the horrors the reformers bore, I recommend it. The number of heads removed and put on spires for all to see while they rotted to skulls is lovely. You can read about the hearts being removed from chests and held in front of crowds on the point of a knife while still beating. It's great stuff, I tell ya. Is that grace? I don't think so.
Yes, the Protestant churches have splintered since the Reformation. That is the work of man, not God. There are fundamental truths in Christianity and they don't involve the pope or Mary.
The arguments we see against us as protestants are overwhelmingly in opposition to the Bible. They discard it completely as a source of truth and tell you you're illogical and ignorant for believing that it is the basis of your religion.
It seems obvious that there are two religions here. One is based on works and one is based on faith. The last line of defense is to call us catholic bashers. I admit that I completely disregard catholic doctrine and tradition. Just make sure you don't allow their anti-Bible rants to knock you off your foundation. There is fundamental truth in your Bible. It is there from the fist book to the last one.
When you throw the book out the window you can proclaim anything you want. But without the Book, it's all man's invention. Psalm 53:
The fool says in his heart, "there is no God." They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good. God looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is non who seek after God. They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is non who does good, not even one.
Steve,
As usual you misunderstand both human nature and the Catholic Church. To read about the horrors that Catholics lived under the Protestant Reformation, read about the English Martyrs, to start.
You are sadly misinformed but fortunately, thousands of Protestants, including scripture scholars who once held the same anti-Catholic sentiments that you regurgitate here on a regular basis, have found their way home to the Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Roman Catholic Church.
Is anyone reading here still researching the New Age movement?
Bravo, Steve. Thank you for your excellent commentary. Theoretically, this should settle the matter, but, no, the RC's will likely continue in their delusional rants. Let's get back to discussing the NAM, per Dorothys prompt.
Oh wow, looks like you're
1. still crazy
2. still have people who believe your craziness
I pray that someday you see the light and remove the hatefulness from your heart.
Steve,
Where did we get the bible?
Do you even know?
You are the one drinking the kool-aid.
The reformation overall was demonic.
Look where it has brought us!
Jesus prayed that we would alll be one...
Marie
Just so you can see who networks with whom? Netroots Nation had their national conference in the middle of June. Van Jones was one of the speakers so that should tell you something about the group.
http://www.netrootsnation.org/
I know some people will say why waste time listening to or reading their goals. Unless you know how your opposition works, you can't develop a decent strategy to counter them. Call that side American New Age politics.
They have a new movement called http://rebuildthedream.com/ The presentation by Van Jones talked a lot about the tea party and why it is successful. He then went on to a patriotic presentation. This is a whole new approach for the left. I presume this is how they will be doing outreach to the independent middle.
Constance,
If you haven't seen the following previously it should give you a chuckle. In current research for an article I hope to finish and post this evening about Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton, both of Bethel Church in Redding,CA regarding manifest sons of God teaching, I came across a passage in one of the late Earl Paulk's books. The title is Thrust in the Sickle and Reap:
"While I was still speaking with the interviewer, a woman who wrote a book about the dangers of the 'rainbow' as a religious symbol stuck another book she had written under my nose. I looked into her eyes and thought, 'Oh, God, I really feel sorry for this woman!' I perceived her deep sincerity and her strong desire for truth. She fights against the error of the teaching of the New Age movement, teachings which I totally agree with her to be counterfeit to Christianity. But she does not know how to discern the counterfeit from the real. Spiritual discernment comes only by the Holy Spirit." [1986, K Dimension Publishers, Atlanta, GA; pp 41-42]
The irony is that Paulk has some of the most obvious and outrageous New Age teaching in all the "Christian" books I've encountered!
Happy Independence Day to my brothers and sisters here in the states! To all others, REALLY?!?!
Important issues that address all forms of the faith are being levied against us nearly daily, and there is still a nearly 30 post argument over protestant/rcc issues?
To Anonymous @ 4:24:
Of course, the reality is that most of us KNOW (and even more importantly - God knows!!!) that those who will 'likely continue in their delusional rants' are NOT the Catholics....but rather the Catholic-bashers. They not only start the fights, but they INSIST on keeping these fights going. They are literally obsessed!!!
To: Anon. 9:41: Oh wow, looks like you're: 1)still crazy; 2)still have people who believe your craziness. I pray that someday you see the light and remove the hatefulness from your heart.
To Delusional @ 9:59 PM:
That's really funny.
We know who the 'hateful' ones are on this blog....and we are praying very hard for all of you.
Hey, Anonymous @ 10:31 PM:
Anonymous @ 9:59 PM evidently doesn't have a CLUE just how many Catholics post here on a regular basis. LOL
New article on manifest sons of God as Kris Vallotton and Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Redding, CA call for, respectively, a corporate "mantle of Jesus Christ" and a "corporate anointing." In hyper-charismatic speak "anointing" and "mantle" are synonymous terms which mean, according to Bill Hamon the manifest presence of God upon a person to meet specific needs.
http://tinyurl.com/3lnjmj6
It quotes from Constance's A Planned Deception.
Thanks, Craig!
Redding, California, huh? Interesting! That was where Jim Jones / People's Temple once held forth.
Constance
Constance,
You're welcome!
I did not know Jim Jones' had formerly "ministered" in Redding. Unfortunately, Bill Johnson's influence is not relegated to merely Redding as he's well known worldwide. To venture a guess, I'd say there are 100s of thousands of individuals who are fans of his. He's written quite a few books, hosts conferences locally and attends many more conferences world-wide.
Did you see my earlier post to you at 8:23am above regarding an Earl Paulk reference to you?
Happy Independence Day! A day of celebrating Freedom.
I love my freedom on this earth and am blessed to live in one of the still most-free countries on this earth.
I love more Christ, who set me free from sin and death.
And it is Christ who saves, not the scriptures. So let's get off the red herring of Sola Scriptura. It matters not one iota to one's soul whether you adhere to that belief or not. Please don't let the enemy divide those who could and should otherwise live in unity:
As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called to one hope when you were called -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. -- Ephesians 4:1-13
As we all grow more like Christ, we will all be more in unity in Him.
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