My perspective -- What Constance thinks

As we struggle for context to assess all of this I was thinking that two things are foundational to aid a good context. The first would be on a material/geopolitical aspect the fact that Jerusalem is the "Crown Jewel" of all this and on a spiritual level, the value of the individual human soul.We seem to be at a space-time historical moment when understanding these two realities will demand the attention of everyone.My hope is we all come to an accurate understanding of them.
 

Post 9/11 Europe: 'Safer' But Less Free

http://euobserver.com/24/113559
 

BREAKING NEWS: According to an alert I just received from BREAKING CHRISTIAN NEWS, the Obama administration has confirmed that it will VETO the Palestinian statehood bid scheduled to come before UN later this month.

(Washington, DC)—Wendy Sherman, President Barack Obama's nominee for undersecretary of state policy, told the Senate during confirmation hearings on Wednesday that if a resolution for recognition was put in front of the UN Security Council, "we would veto it." (Photo by: Reuters)

"The United States is very resolved to a veto threat in the Security Council," she added.

According to a report in The Jerusalem Post, Wednesday's statements by Sherman were the first official confirmation that the White House Administration would veto such an appeal.

Constance
 

Opinion Editorial in NEW YORK TIMES yesterday that if USA vetoes Palestinian statehood bid it will lose important Middle East allies and empower Iran, thus risking a large Middle East war.

http://tinyurl.com/3k77u8x
or
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/opinion/veto-a-state-lose-an-ally.html
Very ominous news coming from this part of world.

Constance
 

For those interested in the historical background of Mike Bickle's International House of Prayer, I have a new post on Kansas City Fellowship/Metro Vineyard Fellowship on Bob Jones, Paul Cain and John Wimber. I'm in possession of a "Spring Catalog '90" with an accompanying 'discontinued' list of tapes/video most likely pulled in response to Ernie Gruen's 233 page "Documentation of Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries)" in which are quotes from tapes and teaching materials from KCF.

I've listed the full contents of the catalog with descriptions along with a request for these tapes for further research. Any help in this endeavor will be appreciated!

I was not aware that Leonard Ravenhill had attended conferences with the so-called Kansas City Prophets, Bickle, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane, etc.

The post mentions Bickle's approval of both Cain and Jones -- who've both taught and still teach Manifested Sons of God doctrine (MSoG) -- as evidence of a free mp3 download on the IHOP site referring to them as "spiritual fathers":

“The two men that have been my spiritual fathers in different ways and at different times — Bob Jones and Paul Cain. When I look over my 30 years plus of walking with the Lord those two men are significantly, clearly I would have to call my spiritual fathers through all these years.”

http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/your-assistance-requested-seeking-original-audiovideo-of-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/#respond

or

http://tinyurl.com/3ctmdcg
 

Craig,

If Ernie Gruen is still around, give him my regards. I spoke at his church in 1982, as I recall.

Constance
 

Constance,

Unfortunately, Gruen went to be with the Lord about 2 years ago.

I'll have some more on KCF and Bickle/Gruen, etc. in a subsequent post.
 

We have a congregation here in my town which became part of the Vineyard movement. We were attending that congregation in the past, eleven years ago, when the Cerro Grand fire took us out of Los Alamos for years.
Now, they have changed their name to a 'Vineyard"
one. The pastor has given up his former pre-trib point of view to think that we will be protected through the tribulation. I told him I didn't agree but he is a nice man and I wish them well.

Mariel
 

The pastor has given up his former pre-trib point of view to think that we will be protected through the tribulation.

I don't currently hold to a pre-trib view myself (I'm mid-trib) and I respect those who adhere to different beliefs in this regard; HOWEVER, if the Vineyard (or this particular Vineyard) holds to the doctrine of an overcoming church in the Tribulation then that is part of the Manifested Sons of God teaching (Joel's Army, Overcomers, Sonship, New Breed).
 

Craig

There are some of us who do hold a post-trib position and are not part of such movements.

Not that you were insinuating such, just being clear.
 

Craig, Mariel and others,

IHOP and others also teach more than overcoming. They say that the events in the tribulation are not going to happen TO us, but THROUGH us. Meaning that we will wield the sword and bring forth the judgments.
 

Anon: 2:01,

Yes, one could be a post-tribber and not believe in the "overcoming church."
 

Anon 6:10,

Yes, I'm well aware of their eschatology.
 

Yes, guys, you are correct. I thought after I wrote my post that not all mid or post tribbers hold to this "overcoming church" doctrine. I was just trying to be careful what I said about this Vineyard Church in Los Alamos, as I no longer attend it. I am pretty sure they do hold to an overcoming position, in fact the pastor told me I could overcome this and that, and when I talked to him I desperately needed to overcome some problems (and no, I didn't overcome them, still suffering, still trying to hang on. in spite of many prayers). I do completely understand the difference, and I know that this is a hallmark of Vineyard churches. This church was of a different allegiance before becoming Vineyard.

How I wish it were true that we could overcome our personal problems and the world's, but I don't expect it until Our Lord returns. And I have seen some miracles and experienced them...but I never thought that one could completely overcome darkness until the Lord comes.

My pastor whom I have now says I am a miracle that I survived so much....so I have been through plenty, and I'm still asking Him to hang onto me because I can't hang onto Him.
 

And as for mid or post trib, I believe mid trib is a possibility, simply because I do not know whether we are in the trib now. I know good teachers on both sides. For the pre-trib position I like Jack Kelly of GracethroughFaith, who is a Baptist. For mid-trib, I can't remember a specific name of a teacher, but I know there are some who have excellent reasons to believe in mid-trib, and some of them are sure we are in the trib now. I guess it partly depends on when you believe the antichrist is revealed....and that is a mystery which has so many variations that one can't name them all in a brief post. Let me say that I do not have a clue as to the anti-christ is, except that I don't think he's Prince William. That would be too major a blow--but I guess the AC will be a master of deception.
 

Ken Wilson, Senior Pastor of the Anne Arbor Vineyard and on the National Board of the Association of Vineyard Churches is an example of where the current Vineyard Movement is headed. http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/about/people/ken-wilson

He teaches Contemplative prayer, prayer labyrinths, etc... His creation care stuff wanders into earth worship. Just check into his spiritual guru Phylis Tickle and you'll get the idea.

The Columbus Vineyard is experiencing their own set of problems -
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2011/08/31/ex-pastor-sued-over-sex-abuse-counseling.html

If you go to a Vineyard, please double & triple check everything. Don't fall for the ushering in the kingdom hype. Don't believe that the person praying for you is "reading your mail" with a direct line from the Holy Spirit. I've sat in a class where the Pastor mentioned in the article above taught us how to "read" people by observing their subtle reactions to your investigative or what they call "the interview" questions.

I could say so much more about Vineyard Church of Columbus (oh, I forgot, I can't say Church because they took it out of their name). They're just Vineyard Columbus now. Huh, I wonder if that is to get another $240,000 grant from the Gov't? Maybe that's a good thing for if it was a Church one would expect to learn from the Bible vs. a Club/Community Center where one can learn about social collectivism.

Vineyard = Wolf in sheeps clothing, beware.
 

Constance,
I posted a comment at @ 10:08pm and it's not showing. Could you check your junk mail?
 

Mariel

Just keep an eye on Sarkozy, and he will lead you to the identity of the antichrist in the near future.
 

Mariel:

For very good information on a pre-wrath (rapture is pre-wrath of God, post-mid-trib) see Marvin Rosenthal. He presents some very thought-provoking ideas, whether you hold to this view or not.

http://www.zionshope.org/index.aspx


Dave in CA
 

Drudge's headlines right now (Wed. afternoon) are pretty apocalyptic!

Especially for the EU.... if something isn't done, Europe will fall apart. The question remains: Will something / someone pull it all together again? Or will it collapse and make room for the kings of the East to reign for a while?

Like Constance says.... Stay tuned!
 

"He [Franco Frattini, Italy's F.M.] said: 'Different countries have different ideas about European federalism but Italy is ready to give up all sovereignty needed for a genuine European central government.'"

http://tinyurl.com/3h4n73z

or

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/finance-economy.c67
 

2nd source:

http://tinyurl.com/6bxn6wt

or

http://msn.finance.com.my/index.php/rss/5269455
 

From Drudge Report (09/14/11)...

EUROZONE CRISIS COULD RIP EU APART

http://tinyurl.com/6jqda6r
 

I am inclined to believe the mid-trib position for these reasons:

A. The Bible (Revelations) shows silence in heaven between the 6th and 7th seals;

B. It next shows a vast number of redeemed standing in heaven clothed in white robes.

C. The angel says to John, "who are these" and John says, "Sir, thou knows"

D. The angel says, THESE ARE THEY WHO CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION; THEY HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB AND MADE THEM WHITE;

E. The seventh seal commences thereafter which includes the 7 last plagues which are punishments on the Beast and his kingdom.

Constance
 

http://www.worldviewweekend.
com/worldview-times/article.php?articleid=7490

Glen Beck the Jewish Mormon
 

Constance,
That's an interesting take on a mid-
tribulation scenario.
I hadn't heard it before, and I've
been staunchly, hard-line undecided
thus far.
Wouldn't your take on the subject
also be considered pre-wrath ?
Hmmmm

Thanks
 

On line this morning, Israel's attempts to gain support:

Mr. Ayalon said Israel is targeting countries in Africa, Latin America and even the Carribean, acknowleding that the primary battleground — and the greatest prize — is the European Union.

“A lot will be dependent on the Europeans,” he said. “Many countries are waiting to see how Europe will vote.”

The 27-member European bloc has struggled to forge a unified position on the Palestinian resolution, the exact text of which has yet to be finalized.

If the bloc spinters, Israeli officials expect Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and most former Soviet bloc countries to oppose the resolution, and most of the Scandanavian countries and other historically pro-Palestinian countries like Ireland and Belgium to favor it. Britain and France are seen as bellwethers, though the French are leaning toward supporting the Palestinians.

If the originator of the Israeli Peace Process (credites by Israel in 1995 as Solana, coincidentally?) could pull this off and take credit for it, wouldn't he look like some kind of all around hero, turning the crisis he created into no small degree of opportunity?

Just thinking, hmmmmm, out loud?

Constance
 

Last quote was from the WASHINGTON TIMES and due to their ownership (Unification Church), I view them with EXTREME CAUTION, but if quotes are accurate, it is still news.

Constance
 

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According to a report in The Jerusalem Post, Wednesday's statements by Sherman were the first official confirmation that the White House Administration would veto such an appeal.
 

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