Sunday, June 08, 2008

War on the Saints?



I just discovered Adam's Blog.  His subject today is "Making Christianity a Hate Crime."  He has a very listenable and well articulated podcast account  (which I just surfed upon) is accurate, a Canadian Catholic priest is being prosecuted by Canada's Human Rights Commission for expressing traditional scriptural and Catholic Church teachings about the sacredness of marriage and against same-sex marriage.  His objections were expressed in the context of a debate.  It is MUST LISTENING and here is a tiny URL link to it.  I found it surfing information for Michelle Obama and discovered a startling fund raising letter by her posted at Prolifeblog and then a link to "Adam's Blog."  

Breaking News:  "kck" a participant on our board has just called my attention to some very current breaking news on Javier Solana and the "new era" ("New Age"?) being ushered in within Europe.  He is putting great pressure on the European Union to swiftly and massively militarize itself.   Stay tuned!

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Hi Constance,

The page came back as first not being able to connect, the server had reset. I tried several times and ended up with one of those 'this page is parked for free courtesy of'. So does that mean the info has been pulled since you found it? If so, that's really quick! But from what has been going on regarding Michelle Obama and "the tape", we can expect Obama's campaign people to be scurrying around doing damage control.
Is this the Michelle Obama letter you were talking about? I found this via google's cached pages, but hopefully this page will still be up:
I listened to the podcast ok and agree he has made his point well.

Janet Folger recently had an article published on same-sex marriage on WND.

And Henry Makow has a similar expose of the unisex toilet push in Colorado.

I find it so hard to believe that the majority of people can't see that the world is spinning rapidly down into a big, smelly,revolting cesspit!

What I surfed upon at which was very much up and alive when I posted it in the wee hours of this morning is indeed the same as the link Lynn gave. I have not tried the link this morning, but just tried Lynn's link which in full form is this:

Thanks to Jill Stanek for the archiving and to Lynn for the link!

W - O - W

I just read Janet Folger's article . . . her point is COMPELLING! Talk about "waking up and smelling the coffee." I am just drinking my first morning cup of Folger's coffee! Don't know if she is part of that family, but the effect is the same. Thanks for directing me to it!

I am looking at my TV show and there is some type of an "infomercial" or TV program on "Forgiveness." Up were the various symbols that appear so often on the "COEXIST" bumper stickers. It even sounds in part quite Christian. I then noticed that one of the commentators was sitting prominently in front of a bulletin board with letters on it 'INTERNATIONAL WEEK OF FORGIVENESS" -- an old Lucis (Lucifer) Trust holiday!

Oh, they are so very much on the march now!

The program I am watching is being aired on our CBS network station.

The show started with the Bible, now they've gone into Socrates. The "multi-faith" symbols were shown and now they're going into "Peace" and against "negativity" and pretty soon they will subtly let us know that Luciferian forces can get us there!

Here is a tiny url to a Shamballa School explanation of the "International Week of Forgiveness"

Here is an excerpt from that last link quoting Alice Bailey which explains all in a paper about "The Reappearance of the Christ [antichrist to us]" at that:

"The association of Venus and Sirius with the ajna centre has a lower reflection in the New Group of World Servers.

I would point out that just as the energies released by use of the first three phrases of the Invocation relate to the Head, Shamballa; to the Heart, the Hierarchy; and to the Throat centre, Humanity; so the right use of this fourth phrase will bring into conscious, functioning activity the centre between the eyebrows, the ajna centre in individual man and in humanity as whole. This centre begins to become active and to function dynamically, governing and directing the individual energies, once any real measure of personality integration has been achieved. It is, as you know, the fourth centre found above the diaphragm in the human body and the phrase which awakens it (both individually and in the group) is this fourth phrase. EXH 166 ( "May forgiveness on the part of all men be the keynote at this time" is the fourth phrase - we are now in an international week of forgiveness - BL )"

Wow, the "dual consecrations" that Malachi Martin warned about both in "Keys of this Kingdom" and his novel "The windswept House" must be in play today. There is evidently USCCB (US Council of Catholic Bishops) support for this -- the Lucis Trust / "interfaith" aspects are so very obvious to me . . . not that I am against forgiveness, but this is taking people in a very dangerous direction! It all looks so very pretty and so very subtle!
When they came in the wee small hours to arrest Jesus and Peter tried to fight the physical fight, Jesus said to them "This is your hour and the power of darkness"

Well that type of hour is upon us once again.

Put on the whole armor of God, to withstand the devil in this evil time.

"We enter in through his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise: be thankful to him and bless his name; for the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endures to all generations" ( Psalms 100 )

Speaking of "earthquakes in divers[e]/[many] places", today a massive 6.1 mw/6.5 Richter scale killer quake in western Greece, and another massive earthquake in China - 5.0 aftershock affecting an already weakened lake and causing landslides. It is expected that if the lake is not promptly drained 1 million could be at risk of drowning!
Here is a link to the WND article about the Canadian Priest.
Reading this, I cannot help but believe that perhaps the 5th Seal of Revelation -- the war on the saints -- has opened.

If you are Jewish and reading this, it parallels identical prophecies in the Book of Daniel.

Here is the disturbing quote:

"Besides the complaints against the priest and Steyn, other cases already have substantiated the Canadian precedent that Christian beliefs can be evidence for convictions.

In 2005, a Knights of Columbus council was fined more than $1,000 for refusing to allow its facility to be used for a lesbian "wedding," and before that printer Scott Brockie was fined $5,000 for declining to print homosexual-themed stationery. Also, in Saskatechewan, Hugh Owens was fined thousands of dollars for quoting Bible verses in a newspaper and London, Ontario, mayor Diane Haskett was fined $10,000 for refusing to proclaim a homosexual pride day, Vere enumerated."

The "birth pangs" are growing stronger -- thanks to Dawn for posting that all important article link in WND!!

Another ominous quote from it:

"Vere also warned that in the Steyn case, the bottom line is that a Canadian human rights tribunal now is "attempting to prosecute a case against an American resident, based upon what an American citizen allegedly posted to a mainstream American Catholic website. What passes for mainstream Catholic discussion in America is now the basis for a hate complaint in Canada."

"But the United States is not immune to such work, either, he noted, citing the New Mexico photographer fined $6,600 for refusing to meet the demands of a lesbian to take pictures at a "wedding."

"Also, California has set in state law a ban on introducing anything but "positive" information about alternative sexual lifestyles, including homosexuality, in its public school."

I would go to my grave before they would get 66 cents from me for that -- let alone $6600 fine the New Mexico photographer!!!!!!!!!

I am going to see if I can track the Canadian lawyer down and get him on my radio program, sometime this week -- Tuesday and/or Friday.

Here is a tinyurl link to the Canadian Lawyer Vere's story:

What can I say about the Canadian Human Rights Commission? Aggressive? Heavy handed? Corrupt? I'm a subscriber to McLean's Magazine and I just yesterday finished reading Mark Steyn's book "America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It". Mark is a columnist for McLean's, and McLean's is currently being sued by the CHRC for printing an excerpt from Mark's book. If you go to the, you can find Mark's columns there.

A while back I had been reading one of McLean's articles and it mentioned what I am about to quote here. I couldn't remember which McLean's issue had printed it, but I googled and found another source...and this just shows you the calibre of the CHRC:

From here:


"The Royal Canadian Mounted Police have begun an investigation into alleged criminal conduct by members of the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

The conduct in question was revealed at an extraordinary hearing on March 25th, a hearing the CHRC desperately tried to keep closed to the press.

An officer of Bell Canada, appearing under a subpoena, testified that the CHRC had hacked into a private citizen's Internet account, to cover their electronic tracks as they surfed anti-Semitic websites under the alias "Jadewarr". You can read the transcript of the hearing here -- a transcript the CHRC did not release to the public.

The victim of the CHRC's illegal hacking, Nelly Hechme, told reporters that she was "completely shocked" by the CHRC's conduct. Canada's Privacy Commissioner, who has jurisdiction over the CHRC, is now investigating the matter."

This is the agency that appears to be now turning on Christians.
And related to that story:
Sorry, this will be my last one on this. :-)

Quoted from that last link:

"During the hearings, Dean Steacy, an investigator for the human rights commission, admitted using the pseudonym "Jadewarr" to post messages on white supremacist websites.

Following a subpoena, Bell Canada revealed that one "Jadewarr" post in a chat room had originated from an Internet address belonging to Nelly Hechme, a woman who lives in an Ottawa high-rise close to the commission's office.

Hechme, 26, who apparently had an unsecured wireless Internet link, was reportedly dumbfounded by the use of her account and denied any connection to Steacy or the rights agency."

It would have been Nelly's IP address that the messages would have appeared to come from. Talk about dirty tricks!
On June 12th we'll find out if another "birth pang" will occur if Ireland votes for the Lisbon Treaty. It's all up to the Irish. If they vote no, maybe I'll celebrate St. Patrick's Day all over again.

David in Battle Creek
There have been some terrific Irish analyses of the frightening remilitarization of Europe and Javier Solana's role in same.

I posted links to the comments section to the posting just before this current one. You might want to check them out.

Here's another example of developing attitudes towards Christians perceived as "fundamentalist"
Here's what ol' Lyndon LaRouche has gleaned regarding Obamamania:


I'm pretty knew to this site so forgive me if I post a link that people have already seen. Along the lines of bible bashing, here is a link to a speech Obama made before the group Muslim Bridges. Although at first blush it seems subtle, if you go back and listen to it a couple times it's pretty evident that he is mocking both the old and new testament. I think his true colors towards Christianity and Judaism came through in this one.


I do agree with Constance about the 5th seal. Lately, I have been trying to help friends and loved ones understand what I perceive is going on here, and suddenly I'm either insane or have leprosy. It's very disheartening.
Sorry, "new" to the site, not knew.

What is the ban called that is a law against anything negative regarding alternative lifestyles?

And this doesn't really surprise me:

Tessa Koop Dutch journalist meets Ervin Lazslo 28th March 2008.

Interesting three part You Tube interviews produced may 27th 2008.

To California 8:18

"What is the ban called . . .?"

I'm sorry -- is "ban" the word you meaned to use? Are you referring to a California law recently signed by Arnold Schwarzeneggar?

To California 8:18

Try this tinyurl -- I think this is what you had in mind:

Hope it helps!

Dear K,

Thanks. I watched one part of that Tessa Koop interview the other day -- Ervin Laszlo is not even original, let alone "scientific." He was giving the same old occultism, replete with the "Akashic Record" . . .

He should have stuck with his piano playing!

Hi Constance, Part 3 of the vids was to me the most interesting. Ervin explained that he/they are producing a new full length feature film "Akasha Quest/Searching for the Akasha" ... apparently they're in discussion Juliette Binoche.

Mention was also made about his latest 'scientific paper' which will be in his new book. This looks into near death and after death communication ... all tied in of course with the ashakaric nonsense.

Yep ... nothing new ... think he covered most things over the three vids ... Mayan calendar, polar shift, UFOs, his online university, new book and movie!

Maybe Solana and Obama should get together. Obama and's got a nice ring to it.

A messiah in our midst?
Scary if true and he becomes president!

Obama's Plan To Disarm The U.S.

Obama Could Win 40 Percent of Evangelical Vote, Says Expert

OK, that's enough Obama for now. I pray McCain gets the nod!
Two things I've noticed about my G. Lamsa translation of the Bible, from the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24)
verse 5: "For many shall come in my name and say I am the Christ, and they will deceive many."
and verse 23: .."Then if any man should say to you Behold here is the Christ, or there, do not believe it"
_This use of the term "the Christ" sounds right out of Alice Bailey, et al.

and also: verse 15: "When you see the sign of uncleanness and desolation as spoken by the prophet Daniel, accumulating in the holy place
(whosoever reads will understand),
16 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountain"
The use of the word "accumulating" sounds like
what's happening over there right now.
Also, the prophet Jeremiah had a lot to say about the 'abomination that makes desolate" and it is very specific:
Jeremiah 44:17-22, and
Jeremiah 44:25

_It would seem that this Queen of Heaven and the pouring out of drink offerings to her and burning of incense to her are that same abomination that Daniel and Jesus were talking about.
By the way the word abomination is a compound word: the prefix "ab" which means "bad" or just "not" and the root word omin or omen, thus a bad
sign and particularly bad regarding the things of the temple, an evil sign or thing; a filthy thing in Gods' eyes.


Front Page of Monday's Financial Times:

The Chief of the New York Federal Reserve Bank has urged a global regulatory body to be formed to oversee all banks and money.
mac said...
Scary if true and he becomes president!

Obama's Plan To Disarm The U.S.

11:22 PM

Thanks mac, I saw this, but I was looking for the transcript. Somewhere there is another quote, I think Obama was saying something about turning all nukes over to the UN. Since you are in tune let me know.
Thanks again.
It looks like the USA is not safe from these birth pangs either as we are getting our share of eathquakes and wild weather.
More quakes in Nevada yesterday

Not to mention the tornadoes, flooding and all out wild weather

lfk, thanks.

I noticed Geithner was at Bilderberg last weekend. Tighter global financial control is clearly one of the agenda items, has been for awhile. Here's the intro to the article for those who skipped by this important development.

"NY Fed chief urges global bank framework
By James Politi in Washington and Gillian Tett in London
Published: June 8 2008 23:32 | Last updated: June 8 2008 23:32
Banks and investment banks whose health is crucial to the global financial system should operate under a unified regulatory framework with “appropriate requirements for capital and liquidity”, according to Timothy Geithner, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
Writing in Monday’s Financial Times, Mr Geithner, a key US policymaker throughout the credit crisis and one of the main architects of the rescue of Bear Stearns, says that the US Federal Reserve should play a “central role” in the new regulatory framework, working closely with supervisors in the US and round the world."
This link comes from the Drudge report about the call for regulating banks possibly worldwide.

Substitute "absolute" instead of "tighter" in my last post. No offense intended, but for those who just don't understand how a one world government system could ever come into's the money, stupid.

The once "hidden" agenda is now very public, on many fronts, political, economic, and last to come out of the shadows, the spiritual. But money provides the control mechanism, and once that item is crossed off the list, look out!

I'd say there are not too many strands of the Spider's Web yet unfinished.
Very interesting links and comments, especially Obama's comments about pluralism. His rise to popularity is filled with question marks. If 40% of Evanglicals vote for him, it will only be because they've been dumbed down by the Rick Warren's of the world. Anyone who was rooted and rounded in Scripture would see that Obama doesn't stand for the Scriptures that we know. Hillary's concession speech acknowledged the homosexuals which was interesting to say the least. VP Hillary? We'll see...

For those of us who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I wouldn't necessarily say that the 5th seal is opened, but these are just birth pangs. Things will get much worse. Don't forget, in many countries outside of US people have been being martyred for their faith for some time. We have a tendency to see things from a very American perspective.

I don't thing the Rick Warren version of the gospel is preparing people ( at least not in the good sense) for what is coming down:

Rev. 20:4 ¶ Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

"The Left Behind" series and many other pre-tribulation books have given American believers the idea that they will not suffer persecution. After all, it's our birthright to not suffer...WRONG. The Bible says that there is distress coming on our planet, the likes of which no generation has ever seen.

Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it
To the years of many generations.

Remember that His judgement is concerning the treatment of Israel:

I will gather all the nations
And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; And they have divided up My land. Joel 3:2

We need to keep our eyes on Israel, and an agreement that will be confirmed for some kind of peace deal. When that agreement is confirmed.. The covenant concerns Israel, and some kind of reinstitution of the offerings at Temple Mount. Some think it will be a full blown temple, others just an altar:

Dan. 9:27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

Yeshua confirms this:
Matt. 24:15 ¶ “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

and AFTER the Tribulation:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. Matt 24:29-30

These verses speak of an anti-messiah who will dupe Israel by giving them a place to make offerings. The Orthodox will not accept less in a peace deal. The AofD will be the person who CONFIRMS this covenant and then interrupts it midway into "the week", a biblical day is speaking of a year, so midway into the the 7 year period. In Matthew it says if the days weren't cut short, no flesh would survive. Remember the Tribulation period is about Israel. God is restoring ALL Israel, which is not only Jews, but the 10 tribes and those who attach themselves to Jacob. The time of "Jacob's trouble" is not only about the Jews, but about all Israel and those who identify with God's people and believe His Word. When people see persecution coming, they will not want to have anything to do with Israel, but guess what....God is not done with the Jews or the rest of Israel:

Zech. 8:23 “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Paul speaks of a mystery. The mystery is that God has always been dealing with Israel, and even those of the ten tribes, who are hidden in the nations since the Assyrian exile, who never returned, have not been forgotten:

Rom. 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret — that ye may not be wise in your own conceits — that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

A lot of people think this is "until the gentiles" come in, well yes and no. The fulness of the nations ( ethnos in the Greek) is a direct reference to the blessing of Ephraim and what he would become. Look at the blessing:

Gen. 48:19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.”

Multitude of Nations= melo hagoyim=fulness of the nations. Ephraim"s name means fruitful.

ISRAEL is hidden in the nations. There is not only the Jews, but ALL of Israel. In the last days, God is shaking Israel from the nations, so keep your eyes open. God is a covenant-keeping God and NEVER forgets His promises. Remember one day is like a thousand years.

Amos 9:9 “For behold, I am commanding,And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations As grain is shaken in a sieve, But not a kernel will fall to the ground.

I'm sorry, but Christianity has relegated the Tanach to be an "Old Testament" but God will NEVER forget His promises. He made a newer, better Covenant through the blood of Yeshua, but the Covenant He made was with Israel. That doesn't mean He doesn't care about the nations, but His primary dealings are with Israel. Israel is hidden in the nations: God made a number of Covenants and they are for all who drawn near through the blood of Messiah.

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:12-13 ( Take note-covenants are plural). You Gentiles are partakers of the covenants with Israel, not separate. Welcome to the family! That's what Yeshua accomplished through His death and resurrection. Peter and Paul finally understood.

Jer. 31:31 ¶ “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jer 31:31-33

Keep your eyes on Israel, not only the Jews, but those who lost their identity and became the "fulness of the nations". God will restore His people in miraculous ways. Yeshua came for the "lost sheep of the House of Israel"..we think He's talking about the Jews, but He's talking about the House of Israel, which is a reference to the Northern Kingdom who mixed with the nations. God is not done with these. He knows who they are and will restore the Whole House of Israel. And for the Gentiles, you will dwell among Israel:

Ezek. 47:22 “You shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves and among the aliens who stay in your midst, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

If we miss this prophecy, we will miss one of the major themes running from Genesis to Revelations.

Ezekiel 47, 48, 49 speak about specific land restoration in the Millennial Kingdom. When God gives something forever ( olam in Hebrew), He does not change His mind.

Let's see what happens to to the peace process. If Bush can't cut a deal maybe Obama will. Let's see what role EU(resurrected Holy Roman Empire) plays in this scenario....and WHO will confirm the covenant which concerns Jerusalem. This should be the beginning point of the Tribulation. I don't think Barcelona Process quite yet fulfills this requirement ...It might be the vehicle used to provide the framework for a "covenant which will be confirmed". Let's keep our eyes on this. EU will play a key role, no doubt..

Joyce Ezekiel 37:15-28
One more thing. Why would Obama be talking at an organization that says this about Jews and Christians?

Take a careful look at the whole site. They are into the animal rights agenda, the environmental agenda, gender equality, but they still believe in jihad, the spread of Islam by any means, even if that means deception. Bush paved the way by calling Islam a religion of peace..Obama will go further I believe and make sure that the Muslims in America have their rights. May God help us in the days to come.

Dear Paul,

Be especially CAREFUL about your Lamsa translation of the Bible. It is in my library. The translator/author was at least when I acquired mine and certainly when he did his work on it and ardent New Ager who most certainly was more in tune with Ervin Laszlo than us. I know Billy Graham endorsed it, but he endorsed Doug Coe too!


The "ten kings" prophecy is more likely fulfilled with the EU/WEU scenario. The biblical antichrist did have one biblically assigned role -- to take out "Babylon" another superpower -- I fear it may be the USA. Did you read the links I put up from the Irish? They are most revealing.


It is occurring to me that your definition of "Israel" and the "10 Lost Tribes" comes somewhat parallel to what we call "British Israelism." How do you distinguish same?

It's a common mistake to think that this teaching about the House of Judah and the House of Israel is related to British Israelism, but in fact what I am saying is very different. I am not connecting the British Empire in any way to the teaching that says the British Empire is the Kingdom of God on earth. I believe they also deny that Judah are members of Israel, and is quite racist in nature which completely the contrary of the Scriptural teaching about Ephraim and Judah.

The short version of what I'm saying is this:
Jacob had 2 wives and therefore 2 firstborns. Joseph became the firstborn of Rachel and Judah from Leah. The explanation of why not Ruben and Simeon and Levy is because they lost their rights. Ruben slept with the concubine of his father and Simeon and Levy killed the men and Shechem.

When Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers he married an Egyptian and had 2 sons in exile, Ephraim and Manassah. The story of Judah is emphasized in Genesis too, as he sleeps with his daughter-in-law Tamar, so we have leadership of the two houses beginning to emerge. The brothers reunite, but not before Judah redeems himself by stepping up to the plate for Benjamin. He offers to take his place, rather than letting his father die of sorrow. ( Joseph wanted to hold Benjamin). Prior to this story Jacob is going back to the land to meet his brother Esau, and he divides his family in two saying "if one company is attacked, the other will be safe".

Israel goes to Egypt and is about to die later, and is blessings his sons. He elevates Ephraim and Manassah to the level of sonship and gives Ephraim the double portion, saying that he will be a "multitude of nations". Judah receives the promise that the "sceptre will never depart" i.e. Kingship blessing fulfilled in Yeshua.

2 of the 12 spies who don't get scared and lead the way into the Land are Joshua and Caleb who are from Ephraim and Judah. Next we go to the division of the Kingdom. Jeroboam leads the Northern rebellion and he is from Ephraim and Rehoboam takes Judah ( Solomon's son). The 2 exiles are different. The Northern Kingdom is exiled to Assyria(Ephraim/House of Israel?Northern Kingdom), never to return corporately. The Southern Kingdom ( Judah/the Jews) comes back after 70 years from Babylon. There was probably some crossing over between the two houses, but corporately Judah became what we call the Jews today, and the rest of Israel was mixed in the nations.

If you read Hosea, this is very clear. Both Paul and Peter quote from Hosea ( Romans 9:25 1Pe2:10). The verse they quote from is a reference to the Northern Kingdom.

There are numerous prophecies about the reunification of the two houses, but perhaps the clearest is Ezekiel 37:15-28. It HAS NOT happened yet. Most people overlook this very important event when examining prophecy, but there are too many verses that talk about this. I do think God has a plan for the Jews, Ephraim and the nations. It's the same plan, Yeshua. . The Jews have been the visible remnant of Israel for centuries and have been persecuted as such. They are by no means all Israel. All Israel=Jews, Ephraim ( 10 tribes) and the nations who enter into the covenant. We all come in the same way, through Yeshua's blood. That's important. There is only one way to salvation.

I think the scattered tribes probably inhabit every nation on earth. God wanted Israel to be a light to the nations and when they weren't He scattered them into the nations, to be gathered up as the gospel goes forth. God could only "marry" them again, by dying. Torah doesn't permit for remarriage to the same man after a divorce. In the book of Hosea, He divorced them. He had to die to make a better way, the newer covenant in His blood. I believe God only has ONE called out assembly-the ekklesia, confused by the bad translation of "church". Ekklesia in the Greek is qahal in the Hebrew. There is no difference. God has always been dealing with Israel. He never stopped. Israel is HIs treasured possession and even though we were not faithful, HE is!

Today is Shavuot/Pentecost. Jews celebrate by reading the book of Ruth. Ruth was a gentile, a Moabite who attached herself to Israel and became the great-grandmother of King David. Shavuot is a feast that talks about the giving of Torah, but also the giving of the Holy Spirit. There are no accidents in God's calendar or plan. He gave us Torah, and then He gave us the Living Torah, Yeshua who left us His Spirit to guide us.

Chag Sameach ( happy holiday)
I'm inclined to agree with you on the WEU/EU. That seems to fit my reading of Daniel. It does look like the USA is being set up for a fall economically, spiritually, and politically. I have heard EU ministers say, with my own ears that they plan to step in on the Mideast peace situation, when US is unable. Clearly, US is not seen as an "honest broker" and EU is. I think the framework of the Barcelona Process will provide the structure to put in place a plan, which someone will confirm. It might be JS, but I'm just waiting and watching to see this piece of prophecy confirmed.

It's good that we are all watching. I believe it's no accident that we are all seeing some of the same things. God will reveal things to those who seek His face. The prophet Daniel is such a great example of this.

Savia who occasionally posts here sent me this interesting link:

"I came across this article on MSN India about Obama praying to a Hindu god for good luck. Here it is.

Here's the picture referred to in the article.,27424,1811278,00.html or

From the article: "Obama, whose father was a Kenyan and mother a white woman from Kansas, spent initial days of his life in Indonesia where Hinduism is a popular religion."
Savia who occasionally posts here sent me this interesting link:

"I came across this article on MSN India about Obama praying to a Hindu god for good luck. Here it is.

Here's the picture referred to in the article.,27424,1811278,00.html or

From the article: "Obama, whose father was a Kenyan and mother a white woman from Kansas, spent initial days of his life in Indonesia where Hinduism is a popular religion."
Chag Sameach, Joyce! In reading Is 30:20-21 I think it gives us a preview of how the two sticks will become one. I'm wondering today if this will be the day he pours out the water on dry ground.
Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel & Daniel are considered the four great prophetic books of the Prophets. What sets Daniel apart is his special mission to the Gentiles. The book of Revelations quotes from Daniel more than any other. Daniel was living in Babylon at the time, in the kings' palace. not exactly a Judaic environment, yet Daniel was treated like a prince, indeed was a prince in Babylon.
Daniel was looking at the end times in a great deal of his prophesy, as was Ezekiel his contemporary at the other end of the social spectrum.
Daniel was loved by Nebuchadezzar and Cyrus and
Darius. He remained faithful to his God and yet somehow was a friend and advisor to pagan kings.

In the book of Daniel we also see the one true God of heaven dealing favorably with other tribes and Kingdoms on earth just as he always had been doing, even though the Law and the Prophets came through that land of Israel and it's from there that
he will rule again someday soon.
Not to forget Isaiah and Ezekiel nor any of the other Prophets because they were also written by the very same Author. That would be Yeshua, the author and finisher of the faith.
Eternal One of Jacob
All power is given unto his hand, amen

One more link that explains the relationship between WEU and the other European institutions:

Chag Sameach Anonymous!
Joyce, I hate to tell you this, but I have read this version of the Ephraim-Manassah story before -- in Bill Britton's House of Prayer literature -- something I first learned of in New Age materials bragging about how the Pentecostals were being reached by New Age concepts by simply changing the terminology. I then was given the pamphlet from Britton, UNLIMITED GLORY . . . Joyce, I fear you may have received more of it and now I fear it is infiltrating the Messianic Judaic Movement as well as the Pentecostal Movement which they worked effectively for years -- along with the Kansas City Prophets, School of the Prophets, and affiliating movements. Is it subtle? YES. You may not have heard all because they have "levels of maturity." Have you heard the names: Bill Britton, Bill Hamon, Kelly Varner? Maybe, maybe not, but what you have laid out has the same look and feel . . .

I am taking this time with you because your research and instincts are valuable, but remember how the deception was to be -- as it was in the beginning . . . SUBTLE!


To all:

Here is another very disturbing sign of the time -- looks like it is not just Moslems doing the beheadings -- the National Socialists (Nazis) are resorting to this as well -- frightening given the network of skinheads, Nazis, sometimes even networked with black nationalist groups, Liberty Lobby, Stormfront, etc.:

or tinyurl

Show this to your children with the greatest of discretion, if at all!

I have no idea who Bill Britton is, but I just looked at his site and it has NOTHING whatsoever to do with what I am saying. Why don't you go through some of the Scriptures and see what God's Word says about the Two Houses. The division was from Him. Satan always twists the truth, so I'm not surprised that there are twisted versions of teachings about the two houses of Israel, but since Scripture talks about this, we too, must look at what Scripture says about it. Excuse the lengthy post, but since you are questioning my source, I thought it important to provide the exact texts that I am referring to. Sometimes Scripture just says something and it's not New Agey, so read for yourself and if you have another explanation of these verses I'd be interested to hear it. I've discussed this with a theologian who wrote 150 textbooks on Dispensational Theology and he agreed with me that Ezekiel 37:15-28 has not yet been fulfilled and he had a hard time explaining it.

I've given my version of this to Messianics who have trouble with the 2 house idea, and they have admitted that Scripture does say this. There are unfortunately very extreme versions of this that say the Gentiles are all Ephraim. I don't believe that. There are also versions that say God doesn't have a plan for the nations. I don't believe that either. There is also British-Israelism which is a racist theology and totally twisted. The Mormons believe that they are the lost yes, we have to be careful to examine Scripture and see what it says.

A hint about the future:

Gen. 32:7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed; and he divided the people who were with him, and the flocks and the herds and the camels, into two companies;
Gen. 32:8 for he said, “If Esau comes to the one company and attacks it, then the company which is left will escape. ( not concrete proof, but read on)

The blessing of Ephraim

Gen. 48:19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations.” fulness = that which fills, entire contents, Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon

The blessing of Judah:

Gen. 49:10 “The scepter shall not depart from Judah,Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

Tribal affiliations:

Num. 13:6 from the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh;

Num. 13:8 from the tribe of Ephraim, Hoshea the son of Nun; . Moses’ successor, son of Nun. BDBriggs

The promise to divide the kingdom after Solomon:
1Kings 11:31 He said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes

Consequences of disobedience:

1Kings 12:15 So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the LORD, that He might establish His word, which the LORD spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Judah: Judah, Benjamin, Levy....later called the Jews

1Kings 12:17 But as for the sons of Israel who lived in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

WHO is responsible for the division:
1Kings 12:24 ‘Thus says the LORD, “You must not go up and fight against your relatives the sons of Israel; return every man to his house, for this thing has come from Me.”’” So they listened to the word of the LORD, and returned and went their way according to the word of the LORD.

The establishment of Samaria as another capital:

1Kings 12:27 “If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, even to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.”

Part of the Assyrian exile of the Northern Kingdom or Ephraim:

2Kings 15:29 ¶ In the days of Pekah king of Israel, Tiglath-pileser king of Assyria came and captured Ijon and Abel-beth-maacah and Janoah and Kedesh and Hazor and Gilead and Galilee, all the land of Naphtali; and he carried them captive to Assyria.

The clear Biblical theme of the division of the kingdom:

Is. 7:17 “The LORD will bring on you, on your people, and on your father’s house such days as have never come since the day that Ephraim separated from Judah, the king of Assyria.”

Judah's exile:

1Chr. 9:1 ¶ So all Israel was enrolled by genealogies; and behold, they are written in the Book of the Kings of Israel. And Judah was carried away into exile to Babylon for their unfaithfulness.

Distinction in God's treatment of the two houses of Israel:

Hos. 1:6 ¶ Then she conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And the LORD said to him, “Name her Lo-ruhamah, for I will no longer have compassion on the house of Israel, that I would ever forgive them.
Hos. 1:7 “But I will have compassion on the house of Judah and deliver them by the LORD their God, and will not deliver them by bow, sword, battle, horses or horsemen.”

God disowning and then restoring Israel:

Hos. 1:9 And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people and I am not your God.”
Hos. 1:10 ¶ Yet the number of the sons of Israel
Will be like the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered;
And in the place
Where it is said to them,
“You are not My people,”
It will be said to them,
“You are the sons of the living God.”
Hos. 1:11 And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel will be gathered together,
And they will appoint for themselves one leader,
And they will go up from the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel.

The behavior of Ephraim:

Hos. 7:8 ¶ Ephraim mixes himself with the nations; Ephraim has become a cake not turned.

Paul starts the chapter off saying he wishes he could be cut off for the sake of his countrymen and then quotes from Hosea:

Rom. 9:25 As He says also in Hosea,

Peter also quoting from Hosea:

1Pet. 2:10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

Here's the two stick prophecy from Ezekiel which has not been fulfilled:

Ezek. 37:16 “And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’
Ezek. 37:17 “Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
Ezek. 37:18 “When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?’
Ezek. 37:19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’
Ezek. 37:20 “The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
Ezek. 37:21 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek. 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
Ezek. 37:23 “They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.
Ezek. 37:24 ¶ “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.
Ezek. 37:25 “They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. “I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
“My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. “And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’” Ezekiel 37:15-28.

God's future plan of restoration for both houses reiterated by the prophet Jeremiah:

er. 31:31 ¶ “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jer 31:31-33

New American Standard definition of "church"
1577. e˙kklhsi÷a ekklesia; from 1537 and 2564; an assembly, a (religious) congregation: —assembly(3), church(74), churches(35), congregation(m)(2).

In the Greek Septuagint, the assembly in the Wilderness is translated "church" because it is the same Greek word "ekklesia".

I hope this helps you to see that I don't have anything in common with the names you mentioned, nor am I pulling this stuff out of the air. These are Scriptures that have either happened or will be fulfilled at some future date. I could write many more, but for the sake of space and simplicity, I think these should help you to see what I'm referring to. Again, please feel free to provide alternate interpretations, but let's just deal with the texts. That would be a better use of our time.
Joyce, I've both read my Bible and listened to it MANY TIMES. I know it almost cold. You said nothing about: Kelly Varner, David Ebaugh, Bill Hamon, the Kansas City Prophets, Grace Fellowship, and other groups with this teaching. As Ernest Ramsey, the New Age associate with Unity on the Plaza pointed out admiringly about "the Neo-Pentecostals" in his report, "An Evolutionary Basis for the Reappearance of the Christ and his Executives, the Masters of Wisdom" these teachings about multiple layers of meanings, the Manasseh-Ephraim levels of meaning are teachings as he put it "of an ancient mystery school" (Kabbalah/Gnostic) -- What this group has done has taken scripture and put the emphasis on the wrong syllable -- The gospel is very simple -- Joyce, if you have my second book, turn to my chapter "A Secret Kingdom" and read the section on the "Manifest Sons of God -- as I said before, I have looked at these things CLOSELY since 1983 and I will further tell you I take the MSOG movement VERY SERIOUSLY. They have stalked me in the past and I did have a death threat from them previous to the numerous stalkings which happened in several parts of the country.

I am not saying this to upbraid you, but Joyce, it's lots of fun to analyze the traps Satan has set for others -- it's sometimes more agonizing to review the ones he possibly set for us.

Remember, he is an equal opportunity employer, so to speak. What you set forth about Manasseh, Ephraim, and the 10 lost tribes is almost verbatim what Bill Britton has in some of his old pamphlets. Kelly Varner was to have inherited his mantle!

Joyce, this is an example of the "patterns," "types and shadows" teachings I am speaking of

I'm sure I'll find plenty more on line, but this is what all those MSOG churches were into: BIG TIME! So were the white racist groups out in places like Hayden Lake, Idaho (Aryan Nations) and many others so networked.

I left out one very important verse which I wrote down earlier:

Rom. 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret — that ye may not be wise in your own conceits — that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

Most people read this verse as God will deal with the nations or the gentiles and then He will start dealing with Israel, but they think that because they believe that only the Jews are Israel. Sometimes Jews believe that too, but Scripture says otherwise. I read this verse as all of Israel will be saved as God deals with the nations i.e. as the Gospel goes out to the nations. The reason that I say this is because "the fulness of the nations" is EXACTLY what Ephraim became. Melo HaGoyim=Fulness of the Nations or the plentitude of the nations. The right of the first-born of fruitfulness went to Ephraim and the right of Kingship went to Judah. Judah today has forgotten that their brother Joseph is still in exile, and Joseph has the bread of life i.e. Yeshua.

When I speak of Joseph, I am speaking of Ephraim, because Ephraim is in the loins of Joseph. When we look at the nations today, we recognize that they have been given the gospel. Judah is still the visible representative of Israel who guarded Torah, or as Paul said:

Rom. 3:1 ¶ Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
Rom. 3:2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.
Rom. 3:3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

Will it nullify the faithfulness of God? Heavens no!! God is dealing with the Jews today, just as He has been dealing with the nations and Ephraim, who has forgotten his identity. By the way, Manassah means forgetfulness.

4519. hÚ‰vÅnVm Mnashsheh, men-ash-sheh´; from 5382; causing to forget; Menashsheh, a grandson of Jacob, also the tribe descended from him, and its territory:—Manasseh.( Hebrew Strong's)

Ephraim is fruitful and Manasseh forgets who he is. Biblical names teach us a lot about God's purposes. The 10 tribes forgot who they were. Believe me, this happens all the time. We can forget our identity in Yeshua, we can forget we are Israel, or Jewish, we can forget God's promises,etc.

Ephraim had so mixed with the nations, they literally became like the nations. Only when the Gospel of the Kingdom goes out, do they, along with the nations, hear the Truth and get "grafted back in" to the Olive Tree.

Outside of Anna ( Hannah) from Asher, the only tribal identifications are Judah ( Judah, Benjamin and Levy) in the Apostolic Scriptures, until the Book of Revelations. Why? Why today do we only speak of Jews? Because God has not yet restored the Tribal identifications. IN the Book of Revelations we see all the tribes named once again. Why all of a sudden? Because God Himself will restore their identities. They don't remember who they are.

Orthodox Jews know that the tribes are missing and search all over the world for I am not the only one who believes this. They know that they left their brother Joseph in Exile, and Joseph now walks and talks and looks like an Egyptian, but he's got the bread of life....This is the mystery that Paul understood. Paul spent 3 years in Arabia. I am guessing that he had a "Mount Sinai" experience and God told him that the gospel had to go to all the nations, and then the end would come.

That's a little speculation on my part, but when Moses went up on Mt. Sinai, he got real revelation from God. I suspect if Paul wrote half of the Epistles in the Apostolic Scriptures, it's because he had more to say. God showed him the "mystery".

Rom. 11:33 ¶ Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
Rom. 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Constance, I suppose you're right. Anyone could be deceived, even yourself with all your great research, but I personally believe if we stick to the text of Scripture and really look at what it's saying, that God will protect us from deception. He reveals Himself to those who genuinely seek Him. He hasn't given us a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power and love and sound mind.

Shalom in Yeshua,
Here's a tinyurl link to one of Britton's Manasseh and Ephraim lectures:

Here's a clip from another branch of that movement, the Kansas City Prophets:

"Through God we will do valiantly, and it is He who shall tread down our adversaries"

"This will be a time of measurable victory and strategic positioning for breakthrough and advancement. We are being called to breakthrough and occupy in the spiritual arena. The Lord is putting a word in our mouths and covering us with the shadow of His hand to do three things: (Isaiah 51:16)

1. Establish the heavens
2. Found the earth
3. Say to Zion, "you are my people!"

Joyce, further, it sounds a whole lot like what is coming out of the House of Yahweh of Abilene and Clyde, Texas. IT IS RIGHTFULLY PERCEIVED AS ANTI-SEMITIC by the Jewish people . . . and they define the same enemy as all the other New Agers, those who fail to accept the "deeper truths" of their "new Revelation," i.e., that "we are the 42nd generation . . .", "we are the generation who will break the bonds of death," "jesus was the seed corn . . .", and "we are gods ourselves."

Oh, and another of their hidden teachings is that Lucifer is not Satan . . . now, why would Lucifer's reputation be of such import to MSOG teachers such as Bill Britton, David Ebaugh, and others?



The Lord is going to do valiant things through us by allowing us to articulate His words from an atmosphere of the anointing. When we do, it will establish the revelation of His kingdom in the heavenly places which will then be manifested on the earth. It will also be a prophetic call to the "Zion company" or overcomers to take their position of authority and eradicate the adversaries set against God's end-time harvest."
You really need to go back and read the Scripture references I gave you. As a good lawyer, you should know how to examine facts. I'm seeing a lot of speculation on your part that is totally disconnected with what I wrote.

I am not a New Age plant on your blog. I love the Word of God, I love God and I really do seek to understand the whole counsel of His Word from Genesis to Revelations. I study the Scriptures a lot more than I study the New Age Movement and recommend that you and the people on your blog do the same..Yes, the Gospel is simple, but God has given us incredible riches in His Word that will protect us and guide us and give us insight in these last days.
Many times in the past people have written how blessed they have been by Joyce's presence and how grateful they are for her. Many are in email communication with her if memory serves correctly.

Where have all Joyce's pals gone now?
PM Brown of England intimates that the US must attest to G.H.W. Bush’s “New World Order” dream and submit to the EU and the UN; saying: "Americans must learn to think inter-continentally."
Does anyone think Brown’s –Bama will be any different?
“Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also.”

May I presume that Sarah is Anon 3:07?
I doubt anyone that regularly posts here is perfect. The scriptures Joyce refers to are enough.
I’ve got nothing from you but rankness.
If Joyce is preaching salvation through Christ Jesus, the Cross, and that finished, then she is my SISTER; I hope the fire darts of your envy will be deflected.
Your invitations has been met.
anonymous 3:07,
What a snide and childish little comment.

Where are your friends is the question.

I had no idea the Geo. Lamsa was a New Ager.

"War on the Saints?" doesn't refer to Cumbey's comments to Joyce. It's just a nice little intellectual discussion.
Well it looks like Dorothy is back. As I recall the last time Constance came up with some outrageous and false accusation about what I believe about Ephesians, Dorothy put it out there first. Maybe Dorothy is doing "undercover" research? Have the courage to sign your comments please..

If you want to discredit me, please use the Tanach, so that our discussion can be fruitful.

My source is the Bible, and interestingly Orthodox Jews also believe that the tribes are scattered in the nations. Funny that I should think the same thing as an Orthodox Jews. I'm sure that you are aware of Bnei Manassah of India and the Pashtuns of Afghanistan. My guess is that they might be from Judah, but only time will tell where they come from.

Here's just a few Jewish organizations that do working surrounding the "lost tribes":

I am not 100% in agreement with any of these Orthodox Jews, but no one would accuse them of anti-semitism, for their research on the "lost tribes". By the way, the tribes are not lost to God. He knows exactly where they are..

...and here's another out of New York:

None of these organizations believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, but that's just because they are spiritually blind for the moment. That in no way undermines the fact that the Orthodox know that the 15 million Jews aren't "all Israel" and they are waiting for the return of the rest of the tribes based on the prophets of Tanach. Either we believe Moses, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Zechariah, etc. or we don't.

Some simple math would tell you that, between 2 and 3 million Israelites left Egypt about 3500 years ago. Even with all the killing and wars, there would be more than 15 million.

Hos. 1:10 ¶ Yet the number of the sons of Israel
Will be like the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered;
And in the place
Where it is said to them,
“You are not My people,”
It will be said to them,
“You are the sons of the living God.”

Since God said, He would make Israel more numerous than the sands of the sea, either He is talking about the literal descendants or Replacement Theology. I for one, do not believe that "the church" replaces the literal descendants of Israel. THAT is anti-semitic, and that's the theology that the RCC subscribed to for years. They believed that the Jews killed Jesus and that now they are the "spiritual Israel". I don't believe in Replacement theology. God is still dealing with His people, the literal descendants of Abraham, as well as the nations.

British Israelism is anti-Semitic, but that is different than what I believe. I never said a word about the British Empire in ANY of my comments.

My account of what happened to Israel is a Biblical account, but it can also be backed up historically.

As for the group in Texas, Constance, they are evidently a "Sacred Name" group, which I am not. I believe that is an errant teaching. I don't believe that we can know the exact pronunciation of the YHVH, because it has been lost, and even if we knew it, it's not a requirement for salvation. God has given us Yeshua's name to call on for our salvation and His name means that God is our salvation whether you use Jesus or Yeshua it doesn't matter. God knows who you mean.

The pronunciation of YHVH was lost because Israel took the commandment of not using God's name in vain very seriously and only pronounced it once a year on Yom Kippur...that was by the high priest. We cannot know the exact vowels that were used in the original name. They also believe you have to use Yahshua, which you have never seen me write. It just shows me that not only do you not understand what I wrote, just as you didn't the last time when I talked about the present reality of the future promise, of being "seated in the heavenly places"....not I that wrote that verse, but the Apostle Paul who said that in Ephesians. That's positional truth. Who we are in Messiah is our identity. The positional truth has to do with the victory over sin and death that Yeshua had for us. We have a present hope of a future reality, which of course is by faith in the inerrant Word of God.

Going back to the Biblical distinction between Judah and the House of Israel, even the theologians who I have discussed these verses with, agree that this is indeed what the Scriptures say and don't have any other explanation for the verses, particularly the "two stick" prophecy.
Maybe you do?

Mentioning the tribes scattered in Assyrian exile and their ultimate restoration is a matter of Biblical and historical record. As I stated in one of my earlier comments, there are a lot of fringe groups that say things about this, but the fact is if you read your Bible, you will see what Scripture says. The fact that anti-Semite, or bizarre groups, or Mormons base some of their theologies on partial truth does not make me errant, nor an anti-semite and it doesn't mean that I have anything in common with these groups. That's a superficial reading of what I said.

I love my people, all of Israel and am actively engaged in many ways with them, with activities surrounding the Shoah, etc. I believe the Land belongs to Israel. I believe God is faithful to His promises to Israel. These are not the words of an anti-Semite. To hate the Jews, I would have to hate myself, and I don't.

Here's a few more prophetic verses:

Deut. 33:16 And with the choice things of the earth and its fullness,
And the favor of Him who dwelt in the bush.
Let it come to the head of Joseph,
And to the crown of the head of the one distinguished among his brothers.
Deut. 33:17 “As the firstborn of his ox, majesty is his,
And his horns are the horns of the wild ox;
With them he will push the peoples,
All at once, to the ends of the earth.
And those are the ten thousands of Ephraim,
And those are the thousands of Manasseh.”

We have sinned, and for that we were scattered and persecuted according to Deuteronomy. It's because we didn't keep our part of the covenant. Thankfully Yeshua did! God knew in advance, His redemption plan for the people of Israel. It was through the shed blood of our Messiah Yeshua..I hope we don't disagree on this! Our hearts are circumcised when we put our trust in Yeshua's atoning work for our sins. Then we become the temple of the Living God. God writes His Torah on our hearts.

Deut. 30:1 ¶ “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
Deut. 30:2 and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,
Deut. 30:3 then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
Deut. 30:4 “If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
Deut. 30:5 “The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
Deut. 30:6 ¶ “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

These verses in Deuteronomy correspond with the Ezekiel 37, which speaks about the ingather of All Israel and the covenant of peace.

Here's some more:

Ezek. 34:23 ¶ “Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd.
Ezek. 34:24 “And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the LORD have spoken.
Ezek. 34:25 ¶ “I will make a covenant of peace with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.
Ezek. 34:26 “I will make them and the places around My hill a blessing. And I will cause showers to come down in their season; they will be showers of blessing.

We will all celebrate the feast of Succot( Feast of Tabernacles) in Jerusalem:

Zech. 14:16 ¶ Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Zech. 14:17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

Whether anyone comes to my defense or not Dorothy is unimportant, because God knows my heart, my thoughts and my love for Him and His Word and don't live to please people, I try to live for Him.

I would suggest to you too, that you spend a little time in Tanach, looking up the Messianic Prophecies and see if Yeshua doesn't fit the description.

s. 53:1 ¶ Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Is. 53:2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
Is. 53:3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Is. 53:4 ¶ Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Is. 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
Is. 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Is. 53:7 ¶ He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
Is. 53:8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
Is. 53:9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
Is. 53:10 ¶ But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Is. 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
Is. 53:12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

Here's a bunch of testimonies about Jewss who have found their Mashiach.

I wonder what your explanation for these verses is? Here are some more Messianic prophecies about Yeshua, written by Jews.

p.s. thanks Paul, Setterman and anonymous. While I don't try to please man, it's still nice to have a few friends.
While I won't get into debate over who could or could not qualify as a lost tribe, as I believe truthfully only God knows who belongs as there have been "lost tribes" found from Ethiopia to the Ukraine and other various parts of the world. I just know that eventually all will be restored for He said it would. Also I hate to see a conversation such as this disintegrate into childish bickering over ones theories and interpretations. We could all do well to take heed of all of our views as personally I doubt any one of us has it completely down. This is a part of the reason for fellowship. To be arogant about ones interpretations is ignorant to say the least.

I do have a small comment concerning the babylon and EU discussion. As it appears it maybe both litteral and figurative, in a sense. The United States no matter what the thoughts are to the contrary is Babylon. Even if you look at the literal land of Babylon it is still USA controlled. Our government also obviously has long term plans for the area as the $474 million embassy would suggest. You don't throw around this type of cash without a long term objective. I see the destruction as possibly America getting leveled, possibly a rebuilt Iraq, or even a good shot at both. Either way the USA is 100 percent involved sadly. I often wonder myself though if John would have seen the USA and UN as one and the same. Lets face it on the world stage they are pretty interchangable. If the USA looks to do something they usualy go to the UN for approval, on the other note if the UN needs things done the USA becomes their muscle. Just food for thought. I some how see all of the above being part of the Babylon John was seeing. It also fits a bit better with the way things seem to be unfolding. As Blair and the UN have taken up the religous end, while the USA and Iraq seem to be qualifying as the kingdom itself. Another thing that struck me as I was looking at much of this, everyone expects a single man to embody the false prophet persona. But a closer look at Revelation shows the second beast has two horns not one. As Daniel and John both indicate horns represent kings, this would imply that there are two kings or figureheads associated with the second beast. I see this possibly as a religous figure head not too unlike the role Blair is currently taking, and possibly a governmental figure like the US president. Though unlike Daniels vision where horns are uprooted there doesn't seem to be conflict between these horns, so they will most likely work in unison towards the same goal of glorifying the first beast. Just some thoughts.

For all who would like to see what the definition is of the Manifest Sons of God, none of which I agree with, here's a Wikipedia link.

I don't think there is very much in my belief system that resembles this at all with the possible exception that I don't agree with Dispensationalism. By the way, this theology promoted by John Darby was based on a woman, Margeret McDonald's vision....which makes her a little suspect and yet it is quite mainline. The "secret rapture" is a belief that surfaced in recent years with Darby and let to "The Left Behind Series" by Tim LaHaye. It takes the verse about one working in the field will be taken, which in context is talking about taken in a negative sense. We know this because the verses talk about the Flood and the days of Noah, when being "taken away" in Hebraic thought was not a good thing.

Here's the verse preceding the one working in the field being "taken away".

Matt. 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. The people in the days of Noah, taken away in the Flood were not happy campers. context, context, context..very important in the interpretation of Scripture.

I personally believe the idea of a pre-trib rapture has made believers very comfortable about the future and things might not be as easy as they have been led to believe, so I feel that those that promote this have done a great disservice in not preparing people for the testing which will come upon the earth, and if you think we are in the fifth seal now, oy vey, that's nothing compared to the persecution that is coming. I do believe God is able to give His children strength and grace necessary in the time of need, but there will be people martyred for their faith in Yeshua, no doubt. Scripture says this.

I'm sorry. I wish I we would all be spared Tribulation too, but the reality is Yeshua's disciples suffered and there's a good chance we will too, if we're around when the Tribulation breaks out. God has not destined us to wrath, which is different than Tribulation. Yeshua only comes back one more time when He appears in the clouds and gathers the saints from the four winds "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days" Matthew 24:29.

for all who want to see what British Israelism is about, you will see it's not what I believe either:

The Sacred Name Movement which comes out of Seventh Day Adventist or WWCOG, is not what I believe either. Here's a brief description of them:

If we are going to through around names like MSOG or Kansas City Prophets, we should be told what these people believe, so that their beliefs can be examined and compared to mine. Anyone who wants to take the time to do this is more than welcome to and get back to me with any questions you may have. There is no resemblance as far as I can see now that I know exactly what you were referring to.

I hope that covers the list of accusations against me. My beliefs have been defined based on the Scriptures I listed a couple of posts ago and it would take a rather large stretch of the imagination to connect me with the groups that Constance listed.

Thanks all, for putting up with these lengthy posts, but I like to make sure to be as clear as possible so as not to lead people astray and protect my reputation. I'm sure Constance you don't like having false accusations leveled at you, so please use a little more caution in your comments and ask questions before jumping to conclusions. I can tell you after looking at all of those sites, you have jumped to very faulty conclusions.

I can see how America is a backslidden country. I can see how America in many ways has turned it's collective back on God. But I just don't see how America, a land founded by Puritans and a land which despite the evil intentions of so many in power now, still has a "heartland" full of Bible believers. Babylon was never faithful to God. Babylon always did and still does represent paganism and witchcraft.
Now if for some reason all the sincere Christians were to be removed, well then America would be a Babylon in my opinion.
The power centers of NY/DC and LA consider the center of America to be a "fly-over zone".

I've read almost the entire Lamsa translation at this point. I haven't had any cause to change or alter my
basic doctrine which I've said before is spelled out in the well known Apostles Creed. If he was subtly out to change anything I still don't know what it was.
But I have a theory that the Lord often makes examples of anyone who thinks they can come up with "new" interpretations of Scripture. I'm reminded of Mrs Helen? White, who spelled out so many things regarding the Feasts of Israel and how they relate to us. I believe she was right in her interpretations, but her ending wasn't so good...
My theory is simply that God gets ALL the glory,
and when we overstep our boundries, it all goes sour. Perhaps G. Lamsa is an example of this.
I thought George Lamsa was just a scholar who speaks Aramaic, Arabic and Hebrew as a native and that he had perhaps a little bit of insight into subtle nuances that perhaps the scholars of the King James times didn't have. I thought he was a Bible believer. He said he was. His introduction in the beginning of his translation is fascinating, I think.
But if you say He was a New Ager, I believe you.
Could it be that he went that way after his translation was completed ? It seems to me that that's what happened to Mrs. White.

Thanks Constance.

Joyce - always friends - we can disagree about things and still be friends - I have said this before and I know I will again,none of us - not 1 get it 100% correct - the Lord Himself will straighten us out - for some of us - it will take that.

Amen Doug,

Sorry my comment should have said " I don't see how Babylon.
At least not yet.


Something to be remembered is in Revelation there is a reference to God calling his people out of babylon. Now whether this is America or the literal land of Babylon obviously the USA plays some role. It could very well be the Paganistic turn our government has taken, or it could be the ungodliness you eluded to. Or it could simply be John meant literally Babylon(Iraq) No matter which way you slice it America is still involved. You could try to say it means somewhere else but I doubt then John would have reffered to it this way, he would have propably stated it more as the name of the particular country from his time,ie Ammon(Jordan), Persia(Iran) and so on. So either this country was unknown to him or he meant what he said as Babylon, or as I stated before possibly both. After all if the USA controls Babylon I really can't see God letting part of it live as revelation states no longer would the kings of the earth be able to trade or buy from her. Time will tell here, but to say the USA couldn't fit because a couple hundred years ago this country was founded on christian principles, which have since been abandoned is a little far fetched. Yes I agree many claim in this country to be christian, but how many of those are of the luke warm variety that He said He would spit out? Too many here in particular claim to be His yet do nothing He asks. No spreading the gospel for fear of offending some one, No loving their neighbor as they do them selves, many of them flirt with psychics and other demonic forces. God in His word states He does not recognize these "luke warm" only on sunday, sometimes every few weeks "christians". Now once you take these type out of the equation, how many do you really believe are left? I don't say this to be pessimistic, just trying to place things in their proper context. I hope for the sake of all who say they believe, that if this land of ours turns out to be Babylon, all of them will hear the call to come out of her. Its also my work, if He's willing, that as many as possible that I can affect, will come to know Him, or even come back to Him! I just have to be realistic in my view. America could be, Iraq could too! Either way in the long run, neither is my permanent home, nor do I owe this country I live in that type of aliedgance. That is reserved for God alone. While I sincerely enjoy the freedoms america has afforded me, I am not blind to the fact they are moving by leaps and bounds to not only take those freedoms but to persacute me for my faith. Not unto death, but believe me that is coming. As the prophecy states the false prophet causes all who refuse the mark to be executed. That means no matter what land you live in you won't be exempt from this persacution.
One of many problems with the "deeper truths" of the MSOG movement is that they plan to do "the martyring" == not be martyred, i.e. "they are 'God's instruments' to let 'justice begin at the house of the Lord . . ." i.e, kill their dissenters. Earl Paulk, another popular name in their not-so-subtle number said in one of his 1980s sermons, "You know, if God tells you to kill somebody, it isn't murder." My retort: "You now, if 'God' tells you to kill somebody, most likely, it isn't God!."

Jesus wrote: "they will put you out of the synagogues [and churchs] -- yea, the day will come when men will kill you and think they do God service, and this they will do because they have not known me nor Him who sent me . . ."

Joyce, you have heard part of the MSOG line -- when they think you are 'mature' [advanced] enough, they will probably spoon feed you more unless you have the information and tools to resist it -- I hope I have given you some here even though you presently reject them . . . I do believe you are seeking the truth and are not consciously proselytizing a MSOG line, but it is simple.


It was, as I recall, the Apostle Paul who warned us not to speculate over genealogies - - - it appears to me that the Manasseh - Ephraim - Lost Tribes appears to be doing plenty of just that.

One of many problems with the "deeper truths" of the MSOG movement is that they plan to do "the martyring" == not be martyred, i.e. "they are 'God's instruments' to let 'justice begin at the house of the Lord . . ." i.e, kill their dissenters. Earl Paulk, another popular name in their not-so-subtle number said in one of his 1980s sermons, "You know, if God tells you to kill somebody, it isn't murder." My retort: "You now, if 'God' tells you to kill somebody, most likely, it isn't God!."

Jesus wrote: "they will put you out of the synagogues [and churchs] -- yea, the day will come when men will kill you and think they do God service, and this they will do because they have not known me nor Him who sent me . . ."

Joyce, you have heard part of the MSOG line -- when they think you are 'mature' [advanced] enough, they will probably spoon feed you more unless you have the information and tools to resist it -- I hope I have given you some here even though you presently reject them . . . I do believe you are seeking the truth and are not consciously proselytizing a MSOG line, but it is simple.


It was, as I recall, the Apostle Paul who warned us not to speculate over genealogies - - - it appears to me that the Manasseh - Ephraim - Lost Tribes appears to be doing plenty of just that.



The left doesn't care about separation of church and state as much as they care about separation of State and the morality of the church. Obama's campaign is targeting young evangelicals and Catholics in an effort starting in the next week or so. Here are some links leading to information on the Joshua Generation project.

As someone on another blog wrote:
"Apparently Obama has hi-jacked the Josua Movement. (Just google it.) He sees himself as Josua. He wants us to undergo a conversion experience to him (as)our leader and saviour. It’s all about Obama, and the cult of Obama. Once you get converted, policies, track record, and promises mean nothing."

I can assure you that I have nothing in common with the MSOG. Speculating on genealogies is not the issue. Just because you see a few words that resemble something, please don't draw conclusions about what I believe. I just happen to believe that God is faithful to His Word, and if HE ( not me) promises to restore the Whole House of Israel and make them one kingdom again, I have confidence that He can do that. Some of the Orthodox who try to identify the tribal affiliations go a little far in my opinion. I really believe God will give the tribes the Land inheritance that they were promised...see Ezekiel 47-48 for the Land divisions in the Millennial Kingdom. I just happen to think God is true to His Word, He's not a God of confusion, He doesn't change His mind or go back on His promises. He is faithful when we are not. He is a covenant-keeping God!!

Israel disobeyed God, so does everyone else for that matter. If our salvation were based on our worthiness, we'd all be in big trouble. Our salvation is based on the finished work of Yeshua on the cross, no more and no less. After that there is a lot of prophetic information in the Bible and information as to how we should live now that we have received such a great salvation. God's salvation plan for the physical descendants of Jacob is not based on their good behavior or their Torah observance. It's based on God's grace and their faith in Him. It always has been and always will be. Hebrews 11 is very clear that Abraham had faith and it was credited to him as righteousness. He was justified before he was circumcised, so circumcision never saved anyone. It's just a sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham.

Moses had the gospel preached to him and looked forward to the day of Yeshua's coming. We look back on Yeshua's coming and believe. Yes, Amen, that is the central doctrine of our faith. He died to put an end to sin and death, once and for all, to restore what was taken away at the Fall.

God's redemption plan has ALWAYS been about Him wanting to dwell in the midst of His children, but because He is holy, we cannot come to Him any old way. We are not saved by keeping feasts, genealogy or eating kosher, etc. Our worthiness is strictly determined by the shed blood of Yeshua which cleanses our sins. Once we are cleansed from sin, how we live out our faith should conform to His Word. He was the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. Not only did He redeem us, but He shows us how to live and empowers us with His Spirit to lead the kind of lives He calls us to, to be holy and blameless in His sight.

I believe that God's redemption plan includes the physical descendants of Jacob and the nations, but the criteria for their salvation is faith in Yeshua. God is not a respecter of persons, but He does use different people for different roles, and so the descendants of Ephraim became the fulness of the nations, according to the promise, and the descendent of Judah was Yeshua, from whom the sceptre will not depart. This is simply a question of recognizing if God says something, He'll accomplish it.

By the way, if you trace the promise, God told Abraham that he would be the father of many nations..sometimes we spiritualize things in the Bible that are literal. Abraham had many literal descendants. This is the whole point of the sign of was talking about his seed. The "chai" in Abram's name that was added is the Hebrew letter that speaks of life.

It's the same sign(the chai) that was painted on the lintels of the door and the doorpost with the blood of Lamb at Passover.


I happen to believe the Torah is the holy and righteous standard that we are to be conformed to. Much of it does not apply to me. I'm not in the Land of Israel, I'm not a Levitical Priest, there is no Temple, etc, etc, If we follow Torah to obtain our justification from sin, then we are falling into the Galatian's trap. If we follow Torah because we have been redeemed from the penalties of death that we deserve, and because we love God, then we are talking about sanctification.

If more people would pay attention to what the Torah says, we wouldn't have some of the error that exists in Churches today where people are doing yoga, contemplative prayer, labyrinths, using icons, etc. God's instructions are pretty clear and if we want to conform to Yeshua's image, we should obey His commandments.
BRAVO to you, Constance!!!
WOW, Constance - I have also wondered lately whether Babylon was, in fact, the USA.

Can you explain to all of us how you may have arrived at that conclusion?

Thank you.
Gog and Magog

Names, respectively, of a king and of his supposed kingdom, mentioned several times in chapters 38 and 39 of the Book of Ezechiel, and once in the Apocalypse (20:7). In the first passage of Ezechiel we read the command of Yahweh to the prophet: "Son of man, set thy face against Gog the land of Magog...and prophesy of him...Behold, I come against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Mosoch and Thubal" (38:2-3). A similar command is found also at the beginning of chapter 39. These two chapters contain repeated reference to Gog and Magog, but they furnish only vague and uncertain indications as to the identity of the ruler or the location of the country. In chapter 39 Gog is represented (verses 5 and 6) as being accompanied in his invasion of the land of Israel by the Persians, Ethiopians, and Libyans, Gomer, and...the house of Thogorma; and in verse 15 we read: "And thou shalt come out of thy place from the northern parts." From the number and variety of the peoples mentioned in this connection some writers have inferred that the name Gog may be only a generic appellation, or figure, used in Ezechiel to designate the host of the enemies of Israel, and in the Apocalypse to denote the multitude of the foes of the Church. Others conjecture that it may be a local title expressing the royal dignity, such as the name Pharaoh in Egypt. But it seems more probable that both names are historical; and by some scholars Gog is identified with the Lydian king called by the Greeks Gyges, who appears as Gu-gu on the Assyrian inscriptions. If this be true, Magog should be identified with Lydia. On the other hand, as Mosoch and Thubal were nations belonging to Asia Minor, it would seem from the text of Ezechiel that Magog must be in that part of the world. Finally, Josephus and others identify Magog with Scythia, but in antiquity this name was used to designate vaguely any northern population.
Well this has been a blog and a half to read through.... I have been checking in on these blogs for a while now just seeing what you guys think and it's been very interesting. I have just a couple of things to add.
1. I think you guys are generally right on the button with all that's happening in the EU etc...we should be watching , the time is short.
2. I don't think we can say we're yet into the 5th seal... my thoughts are that's jumping ahead a bit. If you parallel Rev 6 with Math 24.... the 5th seal doesn't come into effect until after the mid point of the 70th week, so I believe we are still in the beginning of birth pangs. It is possible that we have entered the 70th week... but we need to be patient with that theory because there is still no peace in the Middle East , and I think the confirming of the covenant is still ahead. ( Just my thoughts )
3. I have a problem with MSOG et al, I believe they are a source of major deception in a lot of areas. I do believe that God has promised to restore the whole house of Israel as Joyce says, and cannot equate what she has said, and what scripture says , with anything MSOG or latter rain, or third wave teaches. Let's just compare scripture with scripture and see what God has to say about it all...we have a lot to learn.
Blessings, Rose
Joyce said,
“Dorothy is unimportant. . .” Even in a relative sense, I wouldn’t vouchsafe such a statement. After all your “prayers” for her, this seems inappropriate.
Darby was not the beginning: Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist by Thomas Ice
Will there ever be full peace in the Middle East. Don't forget the prophecy: "War shall continue until the end, desolations are decreed. He shall make a covenant with many for seven years . . ."
Paul: There's lots on line about Lamsa who was an active UNITY member. This is a quote from CRI which I don't always take as gospel but the following concurs with research I did starting in 1981:

" These experiences affected Lamsa's message and interpretation of Scripture in several ways. Above all, Lamsa sought a "new world order" in which "the light of the gospel would be shared, racial and class barriers would be eliminated, and national boundaries would be eliminated."[3] Accordingly, Lamsa interprets Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (in his book appropriately titled _The Kingdom on Earth_) as a commandment for world peace, international understanding, and the overthrow of enslaving governments by meekness and love. Lamsa founded the Christian Mohammedan Society in 1921 to pursue unity by emphasizing common ground.

Lamsa's desire to unite nations into a universal state led him to avoid matters of dogma and make many concessions to the beliefs of other faiths, seeking the lowest common denominator among religions.

I guess it was Hal Lyndsey's books that pointed out how America is / was the leading Democracy in the world and that Greece was the original Democracy in the world, one can see America in the Scriptures and one can see America as one of the "young lions of Dedan",if Dedan is England, (Ezk.38:13) and one can see the famous "ships of Tarshish" as perhaps being The U.S., since we are a young whelp of Great Britain. I don't know.
I just think that when a whole set of people all disappear at the same time and the only thing they all have in common is a sincere faith in this Jesus
then you've got a world with no salt that goes rancid rather quickly.
And I do want to point out that I've never read any of those Left Behind books. Actually I read about three pages and put it back, because I couldn't throw it away. What is Christian Fiction ?
I disagree that the Rapture of the saints, as it's known, can only happen after a number of years of
Tribulation like the kind that the world will go through after these particular people are removed.
I'm pre-trib all the way. As far as persecution, has anyone been to southern Sudan lately? Or China?
Or Canada? The future is now.
What I can't picture is how some flesh is actually
going to come all the way through the Great Tribulation. This will be after the saints have been translated into the incorruptable. Human beings,
not spiritual beings will still be on earth as a remnant and a saved race.
And the city that comes down out of heaven which
is made of people. People who have been changed into incorruptable, like angels but not angels.
There's much more that I don't know than what I do know.


Welcome back. I don't think we are yet in the full blown 5th seal -- we would all be in hiding or dead if that were true -- BUT there signs that it is impending. I think it more than possible that we are full blown in the 3d seal -- the Rider on the Black Horse -- the famines, the shortages, the inflation for necessities but "touch not the oil and the wine" -- luxuries for others.

I did not say Dorothy is unimportant. I believe someone else did so go back and double check that. I wouldn't say that about Dorothy, or anyone else for that matter. We are all made in God's image and as such we have value.

Doug, I agree. We can disagree and be friends. Can't think of too many people who are in perfect agreement on the Bible. God will straighten us all out one day. We only see in part.

Rose, Glad to hear from you. I hope all is well.

Shalom all,
Here's another European speech about "Europe's Smart Power" referring to the European Neighbourhood Policy" --

Europe's smart power in its region and the world

By Olli Rehn, EU Commissioner for Enlargement
Published Monday, 9 June, 2008 - 09:45

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Commissioner Olli Rehn in a recent speech to his alma mater St. Antony, discusses the role of European Union as a force for good and democracy not only in its neighbourhood but globally.

Read the rest by going to:


Now I found it this is what I said in response to Dorothy saying I had no friends:

Whether anyone comes to my defense or not Dorothy is unimportant, because God knows my heart, my thoughts and my love for Him and His Word and don't live to please people, I try to live for Him

Sorry about the confusion. I didn't think I said that Dorothy is unimportant. Left out the punctuation.
I would ask that personal attacks and snideness be eliminated by all sides to this discussion.

Thank you!

Joyce, you are on Total Ignore as far as I am concerned. Do not attribute to me things others have said. Back to Total Ignore.

Hey, everybody:

I am watching C-Span right now. Since 8:25 PM EST, a U.S. House Reading Clerk is reading a 35-count Resolution to impeach President George W. Bush.

This Resolution was introduced by Rep. Kucinich (D-Ohio) on Monday. (It took almost 5 hours to read.)

There may be a vote on Wednesday.

For more info, go to
Looks like a Briton is about to seek a court order forcing an English referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. It will be interesting to see the reaction to this -- the Irish are already getting threats galore!

Well, I can think of plenty of things GWB has done that approach that level, on the other hand, Dennis Kucinich is a BIG TIME New Ager who has that agenda -- I doubt very much that GWB would be impeached. Kucinich is not taken all that seriously -- if he were he would have been Demo nominee rather than Barack Obama. Kucinich did run.

For those who are interested Oprah is going to re-air her "The Secret behind The Secret" program on Thursday 6/12/08. She may or may not be a hypnotizer (as Constance has said some are hypnotized and some are the hypnotizer) but she sure likes those who are on her show!

Just a general comment when communicating in this type of forum, it is often difficult to communicate what we mean.

What a coincidence, Dawn. My mother and I were just talking about The Secret today. I have an aunt who has been heavily involved in The Secret and now my uncle is reading it as well. My mother wanted to know if I had read The Secret and did I have the book, she would like to read it and see what it's all about. (She is not happy with the effect The Secret has had on her sister in law.) We ended up having a lengthy discussion about the whole thing as I warned her about what was really behind The Secret. That led into a discussion of Oprah, Abraham-Hicks, A Course in Miracles...I told her about the disincarnate entities involved in A-H and ACIM and that Oprah had actually interviewed "Abraham". Basically what it came to was my warning her that these teachings are anti-Christian and blasphemous, as well as being extremely dangerous on an emotional and psychological level. There was a lot more to it than what I can say here, but it was a good talk and an eye opener for her. By the end of the discussion, she had gone from 'wanting to read' The Secret to 'maybe taking a look at it'.

By the way, I think Oprah knows exactly what she's doing. She's been at this new age stuff for a very long time and she knows how far she can take things publicly on television and what to leave to the web and the radio programs. I dropped any illusions I had about her character when she decided to get all cozy with Tom Cruise. I spent a weekend researching Scientology after the first TC interview, and I was horrified. (Google "Scientology, cult" or..."Hubbard, Crowley"...just as an example) I realized that if I could find this out, so could Oprah and her staff. And if they KNEW this stuff and chose to be cozy with this evil cult anyway, then what kind of people are they? Or I guess I could more accurately ask, "Whom do they serve?"
"By the way, this theology promoted by John Darby was based on a woman, Margeret McDonald's vision....which makes her a little suspect and yet it is quite mainline."

I'm amazed people continue to blithely make this dismissive claim. I guess Darby isn't around to defend himself and if you say it often enough it becomes "true" -right? Yes, I've heard and read it all. One can make similar claims about the origin of other, even more recent, end-time beliefs. Personally, I'd rather stick to scripture in evaluating any teaching.
The Halos of Barack Obama

You mentioned Oprah getting "all cozy with Tom Cruise."

Tom Cruise and his wife, Katie have become very close friends with Will Smith and his wife Jada.
And while Will and Jada have both denied becoming Scientologists, they have recently invested their money and their time to open up a controversial school in the Los Angeles area which uses suspicious "Scientologist-type teachings."
Whether anyone comes to my defense or not Dorothy is unimportant, because God knows my heart, my thoughts and my love for Him and His Word and don't live to please people, I try to live for Him.

From Joyce 9:55

I'm glad you don't want to own the statement, but it was copied from your post.
Anon 3:30,

It looks like TC's attempts to convert the Beckhams isn't going to be successful. I don't think Victoria is that malleable. I think Will and Jada have probably been into it for a while, but quietly, and not so much as Tom and Katie. Maybe Will has only been giving money but not actually engaging in the practices, I don't know. It would probably be career suicide for Will Smith to openly be a practicing Scientologist.

I've been following that story about the school Will has funded. Very disturbing.
Joyce's statement doesn't really make sense unless you put the comma after the word Dorothy.
After everything that Joyce has said, how can anyone think she would blurt out that some other commenter was unimportant? It would be completely out of character and not even relevant to the conversation.
Dorothy, you WISH she said something like that.
She was speaking TO Dorothy, get it?
What a feeble attempt at claiming to be persecuted.

_But what is wrong with Dispensationalism ?

It works for me.
Nor do I see any replacement theology in it.

I've briefly read the blogs but I have company and little time right now but hope to ask some things that Jeremiah Burroughs talks about in his commentary on Hosea. He is from the 1600's and talks about the day of Jezreel and the tribes. His commentary is 688 pgs 8 1/2 x 11. It is awesome in light of the days we live in. Joyce I have read some of the scriptures you give and will read more. Looking forward to some good discussion.

These exact types of petty arguements about who is "right or wrong" are precisely the reason the enemy of our Lord has prevailed in his campaign against us. If we put half the energy we spend trying to disprove another believer into doing what we are called to we would see much more fruit from our labor. No one and I mean no one here or anywhere else should be making such belittling comments towards other believers. Its one thing to share a view or even keep each other in check with scripture, but some of these "I'm right your wrong" childish back handed comments have gotten out of hand. Yes we all have different views, maybe instead of trying to talk over some one else's thoughts we should pay attention to what each is saying. As I doubt any one of us has a complete understanding. You can be deceived by the arrogance of your own thoughts, and to assume your interpretation is the only possible way is just that, arrogant! It was this same arrogance in interpretation that brought the jews to reject Jesus when He walked the earth. If you happen to believe in a pre-trib rapture thats fine, but to not be prepared in case you happen to be wrong is foolish. If you happen to believe the 7 year treaty is yet to come, thats fine too, but understand there is a 7 year treaty on the books that very well could fulfill this prophecy. While it is not a direct peace treaty, it is an economic deal that has a neccessity for peace within its construct. If this treaty is what causes peace to be reached, and in turn leads to a return of sacrifice, then it would completely fulfill Daniels prophecy. We can't expect that the treaty would neccesarily mean an instant change in the area, just that before the middle of the week these things would have to happen, in order for them to be stopped. I have also heard interpretations where some believe the temple itself doesn't need to be rebuilt, as in the temple is now spiritual and within the believer. People who see it this way look at the writings where Paul refferences the temple of God now being within the believers. I don't see it this way, but can see how God might fulfill it this way. Prophecy was not meant so we could tell the future, but so that as things happened we could see God fulfilling His promise. In such we need to read it for what it says and just watch for Him to fulfill His word. Not try to deny what is right in front of us because it doesn't fit our perception. If the things happening currently are not the fulfillment, then all that has happened is we remained vigilant as we were asked to do. On the other hand, if we shut our selves out to what is happening in front of our eyes because it doesn't fit our preconceived notions. Then we will walk blindly into our enemies snare, possibly leading many others with us along the way. A little more love and understanding could bring all of us farther than the arguing ever will. I welcome other thoughts on anything I post, and believe me I take all other views into consideration. This is the essence of fellowship, learning from one another and witnessing to what He does in and through us. Please don't let ego ruin a great opportunity to learn from those around you.

Peace and Love
I own the statement, but I didn't say Dorothy was unimportant, but it was out of context, which is often the same thing we do with the Scriptures when we interpret them. (see below) I'm not in the habit of insulting people, at least not on purpose. Sometimes I do by accident. Dorothy doesn't like me, because I'm a Jew who found her Messiah, but I don't take that personally at all.

As for your point about sticking to Scripture, I agree. If you read any of my posts, you know I do mostly quote from Scripture, so my apologies about that divergence. I do think there have been Scriptural arguments made as to why Dispensational theology has flaws. Today there are new forms of this like Progressive Dispensational theology, because theologians have found flaws in it. My biggest issue with it is that we make an artificial distinction between "the church" and "Israel".

There are many verses in the Torah that show inclusion for the aliens within Israel. If someone attached themselves to Israel the rules were the same for the alien that dwelled among them. The word qahal and ekklesia have the same meaning according to the Greek Septuagint.

There is an unnecessary distinction between Israel and the Church is that we have made a new entity from which we exclude Israel. Today the only visible remnant of Israel is the Jews. This artificial division would mean that God has two separate redemption plans, one for the Jews and one for the church. Is a Jew, when they find their Messiah supposed to become "a Christian" and belong to "a church"? I would say no. God was and still is dealing with Israel. Now today we have the nation of Israel which has been reestablished, so this confuses things even further. The nation of Israel is not yet the theocracy that God intended. It's quite secular overall.

If you go back to the book of Acts, God didn't start a church per say. The Jewish believers in Yeshua continued to attended the Temple or synagogues. The famous verse in Acts 15 talking about what to do with the new Gentile believers says that they should "eat kosher" ( i.e. not eat things sacrificed to idols, not eat things strangled, abstain from sexual immorality and not eat blood). These rules are from Leviticus. And then they would go to the synagogue ( where you had Torah scrolls) and grow:

but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Acts 15:20-21

Look at the verse, they were supposed to learn from Moses! Why do you think James ( Yacov) said this?

Another overlooked verse:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

There's a lot I can say about Second Temple Judaism that would explain all this confusion, but it's too long to write on a blog. We are not supposed to have this separation between Jews and Gentiles. The dividing wall has come down according to Ephesians( the wall was only erected in Second Temple Judaism as a response to what happened with the Seculids...see the history of the Maccabees).

What I am saying is that when we read the Bible and translate the word ekklesia to be church, and qahal to be assembly we fail to see that God has always been dealing with one called out people in every generation. The historical reality is that by 135 AD, believers in Yeshua were forced out of the synagogue and with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD the synagogue system grew more important. The book of Hebrews was preparation for this event, but the first believers in Yeshua were primarily Jews and continued to worship at the synagogue, observe Torah etc. We tend to think of Paul as being anti-Torah, but he really wasn't.

All Paul said, is Torah is not the means of salvation and he was right. It never was, not even for Israel. It was God's loving instructions, and brought conviction of sin. The death penalty imposed by Torah was done away with, when Yeshua paid it in our place. Torah is good and holy, for both Jews and the nations. It just doesn't save you. Faith in Yeshua does. We are sanctified when Torah is written on our hearts.

Paul said in Romans, that the nations were grafted into the Olive Tree. The Olive tree represents Israel. What we have done is make a new entity, called a Church, which most Jews don't want to have anything to do with ( always with exceptions). We have not provoked Jews to jealousy by talking about a Messiah who discarded Torah. Remember Jews know that they are in the diaspora because of their disobedience to Torah. God scattered them.

A lot of it is just about vocabulary, but as Jews come to know Yeshua today they are taking issue with some of this and bringing a different perspective. I personally believe we are one called out assembly in Messiah Yeshua, not a church, but grafted into the olive tree called Israel, which produces olives not oranges. Call it semantics, but I would say if we look at the history of how the Jews were treated by the historical church, we can see how anti-Semitism developed.

Our feasts which were established by God, which all speak of Yeshua, have been done away with and replaced with feasts like Easter, Christmas, etc. Forgive me, I'm not insulting anyone, just bringing another perspective. God commanded us to celebrate the feasts( mo'edim) FOREVER. He called them His rendezvous, especially Shabbat. I'm just trying to give you a different perspective, not insulting you. Christians think it's fine to eat pork, shellfish, etc. Read what Torah says about this. The verse that says, "it's not what goes into the stomach which defiles you ...." is about hand washing which was not a Torah instruction, but rather a tradition of 2nd Temple Judaism. Again, look at the context of the verse. Yeshua's disciples failed to wash their hands according to rabbinic tradition.

I could go on a lot more, but I won't. Read some books on Second Temple Judaism and you will see that post-Babylon there was big difference. King David followed Torah ( most of the time). He did not follow Judaism per say. It didn't exist, although Jews today may say it did, it's nowhere to be found in the Bible. The word Jews only appears post-Babylon. We need to make a distinction between Biblical Torah, and Rabbinic Judaism. I'm not against rabbis, just noting that the rabbinic system is not in conformity to Torah. It was a response to Jews under foreign occupation by Rome and developed further when the Temple was destroyed.

I'm actually saying a lot of different things in my comments here, but I just want Christians to think about their role historically visa via Israel. I'm not blaming anyone for what happened. The split is from God. For 2 centuries, believers in Yeshua have thought of themselves as a separate entity from Israel. They have neither replaced Israel or are separate from it. They are part of the olive tree. The terminology has resulted in Jews not being able to see their Messiah, a Torah-observant Jew, and Christians not being able to see the Hebraic roots of their faith very clearly. One day we will have the true unity, not the New Age variety. We'll be reconciled in Yeshua, the only true plan for Biblical reconciliation . Until that time, things are rather imperfect.

My search to study an understand these things came as a result of having my Jewish identity hidden by my family and learning my family was killed in the Shoah. It caused me to really as a lot of questions. I love the Bible and I love history, so in asking the questions, I feel as though God has given me some understanding as to the whys and also how He will rectify this one day.

Who is who ( i.e. the Church and Israel) has huge implications for end time prophecy, so this is not off the subject. Antiochus Epiphanes was very much a "type" of anti-messiah, so we can learn a lot about the coming one from looking at that period in Jewish history. The corrupt government of Israel has tremendous parallels to the corrupt leaders who were in cahoots with the Romans during the time of Yeshua. It was not by accident that Yeshua was constantly calling them on their hypocrisy. It will be interesting to see if history repeats itself for His Second Coming.

Some think he's the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel, but Yeshua says in Matt 24 the final Abomination of Desolations has not yet come.

As for the aspect of Dispensational Theology that concerns the" pre-trib rapture", besides not seeing it in Scripture, I am concerned that many American Christians, in particular are so comfortable that they will be raptured out of the Tribulation, they are ill-prepared for the days ahead. The Left Behind series may have done a disservice to people.

Add to this that Brian McLaren, doesn't think we should "focus" on End times issues ( or homosexuality) or Rick Warren who has the P.E.A.C.E. plan you end up with a dumbed-down Church that is participating in the UN Millennium Goals unwittingly. Alice Bailey would have been pleased.

By the way, I have a book published in 1920, which spells out the Dispensationalist framework and it's neither by Darby nor Edwards, it's by a man named
Rev. Clarence Larkin and it's called "Rightly Dividing the Word".
No it wasn't just Darby and I doubt Darby got it from some other persons dream.

Joyce, It is arrogance for you to claim to speak for me. Stop it.
Speaking of commas, what if there should be a comma after the word "today" in Jesus' statement to the repentant thief on the cross beside him, as in:
"Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in Paradise."
It makes better sense to me than: "Verily I say unto you today you shall be with me in Paradise."

What a difference!
After all neither the thief nor Jesus went to Paradise that day, did they ?

Speaking of end times…regional governments are crucial to the scenario.

Union of South American Nations….

“The heads of state of 12 South American nations have signed a historic treaty to create the Union of South American Nations. Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Guyana, Paraguay, Peru, Suriname, Uruguay and Venezuela all signed the treaty. The regional union is meant to accommodate the free movement of people within South America and further integrate policies on everything from trade and economic development to regional defense. Since signing the treaty, the new union has announced plans for a central bank and common currency patterned after the European Union's euro-zone.” [K House eNews]

The text of the South American Unification Treaty can be found here, in multiple languages. Scroll down for English.

And also don’t forget to visit the African Union website...

Africa MUST unite!
Interesting point Paul, this is actually something many overlook in many scriptures. An example is the Revelation refference to the mystery Babylon. Some read it and see that the land was mysterious to John. However when taken in the grammatical context it states mystery, Babylon. Which would indicate the mystery and Babylon are seperate things, or at the least a mystery involving Babylon. Not that Babylon used here was mysterious or unknown to John. This can also be seen in the prophecy of Daniel reffering to the 7 year covenant with many and the stopping of sacrifices and oblation. The comma indicates that while one has something to do with the other, they are seperate things. When read in the proper context we find what they have in common is the one involved with both, the great and terrible leader. Grammar and punctuation is something that seems all to often over looked. While in the hebrew words and phrases indicated context, punctuation is a way to tell context in the english language. This is something that I personally had seen lead to many a misinterpretation. I'm glad that at least some one else pays attention to these small details.



I completely 300% agree with what you've said here. :-)

I think I've said this before but I'll say it again--We are being watched all the time, 24/7 by our spiritual enemy. And our enemy will use ANYTHING against us. He is a master at sowing deception, conflict, and confusion. He knows our every weakness, better than we do and he fights dirty...Even what we think are our strengths can get twisted and used against us. In his usage, love becomes fear, confidence becomes arrogance, desire becomes greed and selfishness, pursuit of knowledge becomes obsession...or we are fed a pack of really good sounding lies in the form of "knowledge" and "truth".

In writing this, I just realized that I myself need to rely more on prayer. I'm typing and deleting and trying to be tactful...

We have an opportunity here to provide so much support and encouragement for one another. This is so wonderful that we have this chance to reach out to other Christians in this media. We are living in very difficult times and we are surrounded by forces that want us to fail and fall. Let's not make things MORE difficult for one another. Many ARE going to fall away, many ARE being misled right now and many ARE going to lose faith in the days ahead...That's written in the Bible. We need to help each other.

I actually heard of this a few months back, I also read somewhere (can't remember where now) that the Asian countries were looking to have a similar union formed by the end of 2009. Do you by chance happen to have any info on this? If not I'll see if I can find the original place I had found this info.
JD, my most recent post was in reference to your 9:28 post about the 'petty arguments'...I guess you posted somewhere between the time I started to write and the time I hit the 'publish' button. :-)

I have to be away from the computer for a while, but I'll have to get into the other stuff later..about punctuation. :-)

I understood the refference, I am happy to hear that some understands the point I was trying to illustrate. I cannot state enough that at this point in time we as christians need to be able to rely on one another more than ever. This will never happen if we continue to let the world divide and conquer us. Pages and blogs such as this one, should be a part of the way we come together in this troubling time. Not just another way we become seperated by the enemy of our souls.
Amen JD and Lynn,
I'd like to point out that while I said I'm a pre-tribulationist, I never said we wouldn't be attacked and/or persecuted. Nor do I believe that Christians will not suffer tribulation. They already have for 2000 years. Every individual life contains tribulation and it's appointed to all to die once.
I doubt that many "Pre Tribulation" believers actually think that it's going to be la-di-da and then the Rapture. But it's "open-season" on Christians NOW in Sudan and other places. Plus how would you describe the last fifty years in The Soviet Union ( before the wall came down) ? And what are they telling potential evangelists who plan to attend the Olympics this year in China ? They're telling them they'd better shut up or they're going to jail.
Christianity is the salt of the earth.
It's when the salt is taken away (The Rapture) that the overwhelming rottenness begins.

disclaimer: Of course everything I say could be wrong. Only God is true.


I completely agree with the persacution of christians in other countries as you stated. I also see things in Europe spiraling down hill at a very rapid pace. The first objective of the european neighborhood policy stating an intent to end all religous fundamentalism, this includes christian fundamentals, should be solid enough proof of this. Also with the drastic moves the United States has made towards eliminating christian freedoms should be cause enough to see that our time of being able to practice or faith openly is quickly drawing to a close. It doesn't take long once these types of actions begin to go from complete freedom, to being jailed for practicing your beliefs. Once that happens it really won't take long until they say we should be put to death. It took literally almost no time for these types of developements to take place in Europe under the rule of Hitler, I can't see the future persacution being much different. Especially since things are drifting that way at an alarming rate. As far as belief in pre-trib, mid-trib, or even a end of trib rapture. I have looked pretty deeply into all sides of this topic. I have to say with all honesty I don't have a clue which way it will go. I pray that either the pre or at the worst mid theories are correct as many may not be able to handle the full tribulation but I am prepared to deal with whatever He wants me to go through. I also am not 100 percent sure that we are not in the midst of the first three and a half years either. I completely understand your view and how you scripturally came to it, I just see the possibility for other interpretations. Only time will tell here, but any way you go I'm prepared. It may sound bizarre but I actually would welcome the opportunity to give my life for my faith. I see this as the highest sacrifice one could make for Him and would love for my life to be that kind of testament. As any one who truly knows me could attest, I don't fear death in the slightest. I only know this because I have been in several situations where I was sure I was about to take my last breath, the thing is in every case I was at peace. This I believe only comes from my assurance in Him. I have often wondered if these times were preperation for what I might face in the future. Only He knows the answer to this. That being said I certainly wouldn't complain about being removed from here without facing death either. In these cases where I am uncertain I try to let the prophecy show its fulfillment without adding my human thoughts to it. I believe in many cases this has helped me see more by looking at the "forrest not the trees" Again this is simply my thoughts and perception, but since it seems to be the way God has worked most effectively in my life, I feel no need to cling to my own notions. Instead I will gladly proclaim His message and let Him reveal Himself the way HE sees fit.


I understand Will Smith is leasing the Indian Hills High School campus (in Calabasas, CA - near LA)and renaming it "The New Village Campus of Calabasas" at a reported $889,000 for 3 years. Scheduled to open in the Fall, tuition runs between $7,500 - $12,500.

On the positive side: the school offers an alternative-style schedule; organic low-fat breakfasts & lunches; one hour of physical activity per day; Living Skills, Karate, Spanish, Robotics, Etiquette, Technology and Arts (all with Will & Jada's input).

On the negative side: supposedly, a number of the school's teachers are Scientologists and will use a Scientology-based educational program called "Study Technology" (developed by L. Ron Hubbard) that discourages teaching students critical reading and analysis skills.

One expert in Scientology refers to the school as "Scientology with window dressing" and calls it "subtle brainwashing."

The Los Angeles Unified School District had already turned down an application in 1997 for a charter school using Study Tech.

So evidently, "Plan B" has been to try to get their Study Tech methods into private schools run by Scientology "front groups."

Enter Will & Jada Smith with plenty of money and enthusiasm. (FYI - the Smiths have been home schooling their children.)

If I were Will & Jada Smith, I would be very concerned that I was being USED by Mr. Tom "Cruise Control," wouldn't you?
More on the making of Obama's image.

The Halos of Barack Obama

"The Obama Mania and Mass Hysteria (because that’s exactly what it is) that swept Senator Barack Obama to where he currently is was greatly helped by a friendly media eager to see him President. In that regard they have undertaken an effort to visually display Obama as a godlike messiah figure.

"Behold the Halos of Barack Obama:"

From a website describing symbols:
"A Halo, is a symbolic representation of the aura, or nimbus of light believed in many cultures to surround a Godly or enlightened person. It is used in art, especially Christian, Buddhist, and Hindu religious images, to depict holiness. The practice is probably a holdover from the identification of deities with the sun."
"It was not long before the German people were prepared to take the short step of seeing Hitler, not as a man, but as a Messiah of Germany. Public meetings and particularly the Nurnburg took on a religious atmosphere. All the stagings were designed to create a supernatural and religious attitude and Hitler's entry was more befitting a god than a man. In Berlin one of the large art shops on Unter dean Linden exhibited a large portrait of Hitler in the center of its display window. Hitler's portrait was entirely surrounded as though by a halo, with various copies of a painting of Christ (High, 453)."

Would we even notice if it happened again?
To JD (@ 12:01 PM) -

Thank you for your beautiful thoughts. It is obvious that you are a TRUE Christian with a very pure heart.

I also do not fear death. I have often wondered (from the time I made my Confirmation in the Catholic Church at the age of 12) if I would be called upon to give my life for my faith one day - and I know that I would not hesitate to do so.
Obama gathers information. This story was done in April. How many more have provided information since then?

Obama's `Gigantic' Database May Make Him Party's Power Broker

"Almost 2 million people have entered personal information on Obama pages on social-networking Web sites such as Facebook, MySpace and his campaign's, offering home addresses, phone numbers, their views on specific issues and the names of friends....

"People who provide their information on line may not realize that the data they are posting at may have a long afterlife and find its way to other campaigns in future election cycles.

"According to the Obama campaign's online privacy statement, it reserves the right to ``make personal information available to organizations with similar political viewpoints and objectives, in furtherance of our own political objectives.''

This is the survey sent to people who want to link up with the Obama campaign. It is three pages long. You can't go to pages two and three without filling in page one where one of the questions is how often you attend religious services.
Here is another example. It is a WND article about a library in Ohio that refused to rent a room to a group that was going to be quoting scriptures. They are going to court.
Hooray to JD 9:28 for his comments -- I am still (increasingly less patient) awaiting the mutual civility I requested on this board! I am not requesting deferring to the beliefs of another that are sincerely held by them and not by another poster, but I am requesting making this a less hostile environment for those venturing on board -- it sometimes takes a lot of courage to post and we should check our spirits of self-righteousness at the door -- they are as destructive as any other evil spirit!

Hi Dorothy,

Happy to see you back! Please stay -- we need you!

Dear Lynn:

You have thanked JD, which I have too, and I thank you too!

A few months back I did a little research on Will Smith.

I don't know if you could find it or not, but you should look at 60 minutes clips of his interview. Both the interview and the out takes are very interesting.

The most interesting one to me was an outtake where he was talking about his visit to Nelson Mandela. Mr. Smith was feeling unworthy and asked Mr. Mandela what he could do. Mr. Mandela told him, "he was doing exactly what he should do." Mandela went on to say that the impact of his films is beyond what a politician could hope to command and that Smith’s approval rating was beyond anything a politician will ever have.

In my research I found that Will Smith had not converted to Scientology but his wife had. He said in one interview, "My grandmother would jump out of her casket if I became a Scientologist.” This was because his grandmother was Baptist and she raised him as such.

Because of this interview, it makes this project that they are undertaking is very interesting.

Also right after the interview, the movie "I am Legend" came out.

Listen to Smith's quote in US Magazine, "I don’t believe that the Muslims have all the answers and all the beliefs. I don’t believe the Christians have all the answers and beliefs, or that the Jews have all the answers."

I also wanted to tell you that Oprah loves Scientologists. Not only has she had on Tom Cruise twice, she has also had on John Travolta, his wife Kelly Preston, and Kirsti Alley (who I read was going to do a show under the Harpo Studio label) just to name a few.

Ellen is no better, although not as blatant as Oprah, she is a Scientologist herself and promotes shows that have a Scientology slant.
Ha! found the links to the interview here:
and the outtakes here:
You wouldn't hesitate to die for your faith but you won't put your name on this blogsite?

Constance, I've never left. I'm not about to leave 26 years of research on a whim. I've been posting factual information on New Age here anonymously all along, just as I did in the past. I prefer not to be diverted by personalities and people can take or leave what I share.

From what you've said, many more people read here than post here, and they deserve to be kept informed about developments in the New Age movement.

Those on my email list know what i am also sharing here.

I am not trying to be arrogant. I am pointing out the reason, that I believe you feel antagonistic towards me. I don't dislike you or have anything against you, but you have made it clear that you don't want to engage with me. I don't want to have any hostility here on the blog. When I am expressing my thoughts and ideas, they are genuine and are not directed against you. I am glad that you are writing here. I'm sure you have provided valuable research to the forum.
This from Jacob Prasch:

_regarding war on the saints

16 "Dan shall judge his people as if the tribes of Israel were one.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the paths, that bites the horses heel and causes it's rider to fall backward."

Joyce, I hope you and your horse are okey.
Regarding Obamamania:

Oldmanoftheski, did you see this?

Johnson Quits Obama's Vice Presidential Search Team
To whoever wrote that witty comment...

Interesting that you should mention the tribe of Dan, who is not present in the 144,000, in the Brit Chadesha, or the Newer Covenant..

He seems to be left out because he led the Northern Kingdom in gross idolatry? Ephraim is not specifically mentioned there either, but he is present in the loins of Joseph who is mentioned..

In case you don't know the 144,000 are those from the tribes who are sealed during the Tribulation. That would be the seal of God, as opposed to the Mark of the Beast.

Some speculate that the anti-Messiah comes from the tribe of Dan, but I cannot say that. Speaking of serpents, I love this promise from Bereshit:

Gen. 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
This is a reference to Messiah Yeshua, the seed of the woman, who will crush the serpent ( Satan)

The verse after the one you sent me says this:

Gen. 49:18 “For Your salvation I wait, O LORD.

The word for "salvation" in this passage is the Hebrew word

Here's the definition of that from the NAS lexicon:

3444. hDo…wv◊y yeshuah [447b]; from 3467; salvation:—deeds of deliverance(1), deliverance(6), help(m)(4), prosperity(m)(1), salvation(61), save(1), saving(1), security(1), victories(m)(1), victory(m)(1).

That's why I like using the Hebrew name. It has a very specific meaning.

For your Yeshua, I will wait O YHVH...would be another way to translate this verse.

There's another verse that I really like:

Is. 54:17 “No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their vindication is from Me,” declares the LORD.

Dawn and Anon (the one who has been talking about Scientology):

Scientology does not encourage close contact and relationships between its members and their non-believing family members. They call it "operation disconnect". The protest group calling itself "Anonymous" made that a theme of one of its protests a while back, how Scientology destroys families. If the "church" decides someone is a "suppressive person", then no members are allowed to have anything to do with the "SP". It's the equivalent of shunning. If Will hasn't converted and his wife has, their marriage may be on shaky ground. Or maybe he and Jada get away with a bit more than the average member...$$$$$. Scientology loves its money. Anti-scientologists have a cute little acronym for Church of Scientology: Co$.

I'm surprised to hear about Ellen D. Well...sorta. She does tend toward the new age spectrum. She's another fan of The Secret.

There has been speculation in some circles about Oprah being a Scientologist, but she claims not to be, and the teachings she is pushing don't really line up with Scientology. But she is certainly friendly toward them, isn't she?

"Listen to Smith's quote in US Magazine, "I don’t believe that the Muslims have all the answers and all the beliefs. I don’t believe the Christians have all the answers and beliefs, or that the Jews have all the answers.""

Poor Will...his backside is going to get PRETTY sore if he tries to keep perched on that fence for too long, eh? ;-)
My apologies about Will Smith. This site refers to a Vogue article where he did admit to being a Scientologist. This must have happened after I had done my research on him.
In my opinion, Ellen is about the worst of all. I have heard her rave on about "THE SECRET," but even Oprah has not shoved lesbian homosexuality down our collective throats as Ellen is currently doing. There was a word in my generation, "discretion." She is so very much in our faces -- proclaiming her upcoming same sex marriage in the presence of the First Lady Laura Bush and her newly married daughter, even down to asking if she could get married on their Crawford, Texas ranch!

Sometimes I think God gives us our names with a sense of humor -- what word in the English language reminds one of "DeGeneres"?

Oh Danny boy, the pipes the pipes are callin'

Joyce, shouldn't the Ten Commandments be like
a mark on the very forehead of a believer ? Isn't the Law of God the original mark, and the much later mark in Revelations the antithesis, so to speak, of that mark?

To Joyce from the Apostle Paul:

1) "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV)


I think the Apostle Paul might say to thee, Joyce, that thou art making a mighty simple gospel mighty complicated . . .
To Joyce from the Apostle Paul:

1) "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 (KJV)


I think the Apostle Paul might say to thee, Joyce, that thou art making a mighty simple gospel mighty complicated . . .
This comment has been removed by the author.
just wanted to ad this.

Don't spill the wine or oil.

the reason we don't do this in usa is because strikers need to pay for their big tvs, cars, houses and useless toys that show they can keep up with the joneses. when will we have the guts to revolt like this? it would shut down the world!

Hi All,

There is an interesting, albeit disturbing, article in the IHT about hate speech and censorship:

"Canada, Britain, France, Germany, the Netherlands, South Africa, Australia and India all have laws or have signed international conventions banning hate speech......Some prominent legal scholars say the United States should reconsider its position on hate speech." Yikes.

Hi Joyce!


I would join a strike/protest. I hear more and more people say they would too. Maybe $5/gallon will do it.


Thank you for the IHT article on the growing pressures to weaken our First Amendment. You are right -- Yikes!

Maureen Dowd said:
“Obama will never be at his best around Hillary; she drains him of his magical powers.”
I’ve mentioned, we mentioned, how when the devil is done with you how he trashes you. Astoundingly true it is with MS. Clinton. I never heard the left even mention the “thefts” the Clintons committed on exiting the White house.
“The poison of asps is under their lips.”
The New York Times is a sign of the END.
I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but I've left several comments under Javier Solana's videos on his You Tube channel.

It seems Solana only approves comments that are complimentary of him. Hmmm....

Solana's You Tube Channel:
From a story, "Details Leaked of Washington Bilderberg Gathering":

"Ominously, Tucker's source also told him that Bilderberg were discussing the microchipping of humans on a mass scale, which would be introduced under the pretext of fighting terrorism whereby the "good guys" would be allowed to travel freely from airports so long as their microchip could be scanned and the information stored in a database. Tucker said the idea was also sold on the basis that it would help hospital staff treat a patient in an emergency situation because a scan of the chip would provide instantaneous access to health details. Tucker underscored that Bilderberg were talking about subdermally implanted chips and not merely RFID chips contained in clothing. The discussion took place in a main conference hall and was part of the agenda, not an off-hand remark in the hotel bar."

Full story at the June 12/08:
Well, I don't necessarily trust Jim Tucker (a Liberty Lobby person), buy I have usually found Chris Perver, a young, intense British researcher, to be honest and reliable. This is truly ominous news!


Solana only posts comments complimentary to him. Hmm, what a surprise . . . NOT!

to the anonymous person the Apostle Paul:

I am so glad that you brought those verses up. One of the great problems of interpreting the Apostle Paul is that he wrote Epistles i.e. letters to specific assemblies for specific problems they were facing, so when interpreting Paul, we must always ask the question, Who is he talking to? What is the specific situation he was facing in a particular city? Which items are specific and which are general commands for all time. Sometimes there are clues within the texts itself. Galatians and Colossians are the most widely quoted letters when trying to say Torah is not longer valid, but you must understand context, context, contex..Sometimes he's talking to Jewish mystics, sometimes to gnostics and sometimes to the ascetics.

Col. 2:8 ¶ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col. 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

These are the verses that precede the verses on food and holidays, so one must ask. What is the context. Is the Torah that God gave to Moses "empty deception or the traditions of men"? I would say a resounding no! The Torah is the holy instructions of God. Now what men did and still do today with the Torah is another story. Sometimes a lot of man made traditions are added. But there were also groups in Paul's day that were mixing pagan Hellenistic practices with the faith, so you really have to examine the "who" Paul is speaking to.

In Colossians 2:17 the word "mere" which is italicized is added by the translators, which indicates a bias on their part.

These verses here speak of a kind of asceticism which was going on and were not written because people were obeying Torah. Worship of angels is never condoned in the Torah, so you can see that Paul may not be talking to who you assume he's talking to.

Col. 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
Col. 2:19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
Col. 2:20 ¶ If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col. 2:21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”

Read the verses in Acts 21 carefully. Paul was accused of breaking Torah. He even did an animal sacrifice with the rights of purification to show that he was not:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
Acts 21:21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
Acts 21:22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Acts 21:23 “Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Acts 21:24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. Acts 21:25 “But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Remember what it said in Acts 15, the new Gentile believers would go to the synagogue and hear Moses. Remember also in those days the only Scriptures that were available were Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. They were only available at synagogues. People didn't have personal Bibles so they were expected to go to the synagogue and learn Moses on Shabbat and would grow in their knowledge of the faith. Salvation was not based on Torah keeping, but on the living Torah, Yeshua's shed blood. Torah observance was a matter of one's sanctification.

Paul says lots of problematic things, if you don't understand the context. Even Peter says at one point :

2Pet. 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
2Pet. 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I never said that obeying the Torah saves anyone. I just said it is God's holy instruction and if our Master Yeshua followed it, are we not supposed to imitate Him? I am talking about sanctification. Once we are saved, God teaches us how to obey Him. We are all on a journey of faith and should be trying to grow by reading the Scriptures and walking according to God's commands empowered by His Spirit.

The Bible says that we died and are hidden in Messiah, so it is no longer we who live but Him who lives in us. Our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. We are never supposed to judge others. God is the only one who is allowed to do that, but if we think Scripture has been misinterpreted we can point things out to our brethren.

One great resource which can be found on Amazon: "The Jews and Copernicus" by Daniel Gruber, a scholar who points out lots of problems in translation. Translation is art, not science, so we as Bereans of the Scriptures should be aware of original sources. There are plenty of free resources on internet today for looking up words. If you want to buy software there are great programs out there.

Another important thing to realize that today because of discoveries surrounding the Dead Sea Scrolls, scholars understand things about the Second Temple period like never before. There are many important debates which bring into question some assumptions held for centuries.

The simple Gospel is still simple, but as I said, God gave us riches and treasures in His Word. If He didn't want us to bother reading them, He would have just given us the gospel. The Bible is an amazing book and we could study our whole life and learn more, so it just depends how deep you want to go. I think in the last days, knowing the Scriptures well, will be really important.

HI Deannie,
Welcome back. Haven't heard from you in a while.

I did a study contrasting the seal of God and the mark of the Beast. I don't have my notes but it was very interesting. It's also interesting that the 12 tribes are sealed in the Tribulation. This points to a restoration of tribal affiliation and a focus on Israel.

I personally believe the seal of God will be the keeping of His commandments. If the Mark of the Beast were some kind of a electronic tattoo,for which the technology already exists, the command in Torah about not taking tattoos would take on another significance. Last year some time a company developed RFID technology which was a mark, not a chip. Not saying that this is the mark, but it's interesting.

Is. 8:16 ¶ Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

We notice that the two things are in place, the testimony of Yeshua and the keeping of the commandments..Yeshua is the Torah, who came in the flesh, the living Word and there is no contradiction between Him and His commandments. We are not saved by keeping the commandments because we can't without His help anyway. Once we believe in Him the natural fruit of that is obedience to His Word.

Matt. 5:17 ¶ “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt. 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matt. 5:19 “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The word "fulfill" in this passage can be to fill them up to the full measure until they are overflowing or to fill them up with meaning. We cannot truly understand Torah, without Yeshua. He breathes life into the commandments of God, which all speak of Him.

Interesting article in the Jerusalem Post. I hope it stays online:

Sarko is an ambitious man and takes over the EU Presidency for 6 months pretty soon. Keep your eyes on him.

Amen Joyce.

And thank you.
It's interesting to spell out and expose all these aspects of the Great Red Dragon, but it's the solution, the remedy, that I care about.
I'm reminded of the letter to the Church of Thyatira in Revelations 2:18-29

Blessings in Jesus the only Christ
I'm not the anonymous Apostle Paul.
Just Paul the occasional comment writer.

as in,
I wanted to post these for a while. I am not going to leave any sort of comment on them, but would instead like all to take a look at them and give me your thoughts. Once I start getting some feed back I will post something, but for now I would like it to speak for itself without my thoughts and interpretations influencing what others may see here. I feel it of the utmost importance that every one at least look at these. I don't agree with all stated, but the statements are made by people looking for answers. Answers that unfortunately anyone who sees these should already have! They are long but be sure to watch all the way through.

Constance, Lynn, and Annonymous

Thanks to all for the kind words. This blog has been of great reassurance to me many times over, I am happy that I can help lift up another believer.


Are you still without power at your office? I tried yesterday to call and set an appointment as you suggested but got the machine. Have yet to hear back as I left a message. Let me know when to try again.

I thought this was a problem a while back but since Dorothy informed me that I was a weak minded fool
I haven't had had to worry about it anymore.

Some here research. Some are here to detract from the research. Wise readers can tell the difference.
14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I'm not sure what to make of that. If Dorothy throws comments around like such, and I am beginning to see a pattern of this from her, then I would assume her intention is to scoff and riddicule. What are your real thoughts on these? What level of knowledge do you think this reveals the current government has of what is forth coming? I am still unsure myself at this point, but obviously it does not look to good.


If this is not your intention, I feel it might be wise for you to be mindfull of your commentary and interaction with others. If as an out side party this is the impression I get, I can only imagine how those you speak of and with feel. As far as what I posted, I can assure you I have extensively researched the subject. These camps are very real and if you watch the videos attached to the link you can actually see refferences to them made by members of the United States congress. Also all documentation provided in the videos can be found via google. Maybe you should do the research your self before trying to discredit some one who has. As stated by Mrs. Cumbey, those who seek this one world order will use "blinds" to pass their systems off on the unknowing public. FEMA would definitely count as a "blind". If you would like to discuss this with me in further detail I am open for it. If you wish to hurl insults my way go for it, you won't make me mad I promise. Although I must warn you, if you wish to have me take you as a credible person with honest intentions I would tread lightly. As I have no intention of perpetuating ill will in this forum. My only intention is to share my findings and research with those who want to discuss things openly, I have no time to trade belittling childish comments with anyone. I sincerely hope my interaction with you is a better experience than others have had in the past. I look forward to your reply.

Little correction, I should have said, the seal is the keeping of the commandments and the testimony of Yeshua. The verse I quoted says that clearly.

In the last days there is "lawlessness" or you might say torahlessness. The AoD is also referred to as "the man of lawelessness". Unfortunately there is only one word in Greek for law, nomos. It can mean Torah or civil law or law of sin and death. We need again to pay attention to context. That sometimes makes Paul ( the apostle) confusing.

Law is not the best translation of the word Torah. Torah can be teachings, the goal like when your aiming for a target or law.

Hi All,

More threats to free speech in the US with the Democrats attempts to revive the Fairness Doctrine:

Joyce, I enjoyed your post on Colossians. A great book for all Christians to read is: "Classical Evangelical Hermeneutics" by Mal Couch. Couch lays out the principles for interpreting Scripture, a huge one is context.

Interesting - I know Mal Couch personally but have not talked with him in about 20 years -- would love to track him down. He interviewed me several times on his radio programs and then brought to me Arlington, Texas to speak to a conference he organized to inform Christians about the New Age Movement. If anybody has any contact info on him, I would love to have it.

to all:

Regarding those camps or apparent camps:

A Michigan dentist brought me pictures he had personally taken of the Indianapolis, Indiana site They had "eye of horus" symbols above the one way gates. I believe it was approximately 1994 -- had to be before 1998 as I am gauging the time that I was in the office down the hall before moving to this suite at the beginning of 1998. That places it sometime between 1993 and the end of 1998 -- sorry I can't presently be more precise except to say that I saw those pictures then from a reputable source who had photographed them personally and they troubled me. The Youtube photography does not do them justice -- they looked eerily reminiscent of the set up at the various Nazi concentration camps with railroad cars, helicopter socks, and the oh so ugly one way barbed wire. I was startled to obviously view the same facility today in more modern form on You Tube. As this was set up obviously way pre-911, they couldn't have been designed for 911 conspirators. Somebody obviously had something else in mind.

I believe in God and that nothing can happen until God is ready, BUT, I cannot readily dismiss those images.


I don't know him personally. I only read his book and loved it. My mentor in the faith gave it to me when I first became a Christian. It was the first book I read as a baby Christian and it has served me well. I hope you can track him down.

Joyce, you may think you have nothing in common with the MSOG Movement, but I do presently believe you have more in common with them than you presently suspect.

As your research and contributions are otherwise valuable, I believe in letting God do the convicting and sorting out BUT I fear that unless people learn how to use the "collapse comments" section a I just did that the length of your posts might deter others from comment participation and/or careful reading.

Nicolas Sarkozy is doing is EU-Med thing under the rubric of the French six month EU presidency which means that it is Solana's sock puppet for a six month period just as Angela Merkel, the President of Slovenia, the President of Italy, etc., etc. It is still the EU's CFSP of which Javier Solana is still boss, as best I know!


Which of Mal Couch's books are you talking about? I went to Amazon and I see he's written several.
U.N. (Ban) Transfers Power to EU (Solana) in Kosovo (posting FP thread as provides additional link re. Dr. Solana):
P.S. Note that the U.N. action takes place while everyone's focus is on Ireland and their Lisbon Treaty Referendum.
Helpful hint: There is a takeoff on evangenical ideas that is a humor website. Don't use news from them.
I know that Dorothy can speak for herself, but I wanted to tell you my experience with her. I also know that you have limited information about her since you are fairly new to the board.

Dorothy is a valuable researcher. She has been watching the New Age movement for over 25 years.
After that long in, she has had many fights. That can make a person tough. In her own way she makes others do more research and question everything.

She has lots of valuable information but she is one who lets you decide for yourself. In my own experience, I have thought she was “out there” on some of her thoughts on a particular issue. That is until I found out that she was right. So since then, it is in my nature to believe her.

Some time ago, she started an email group. I receive her emails and she always gives the sources. Often there are several without any conclusions from her, because she wants others to see and think for themselves and not rely on her for interpretation. Later, she will give her thoughts on the matter.

One thing that you may not be aware of is that Dorothy is Jewish. I would think that do this, she would be triple checking on these camps.

I can understand your concern and the believability of these camps. I have seen lots of information on them on the Internet as well. The question is where is all the information really coming from? Is it all just coming from one source and then redistributed over multiple places? Why is it in all the things that you see, there are never any exact location given?

Please don’t respond over the blogspot, I don’t want to take the comment space. I would just invite you to do further research on this.

For me, I gone from being totally weirded out by the camps, to totally disbelieving they exist, and now being neutral about them. This would be because Constance has seen pictures from a reliable source puts it back in the items of interest for me.
Camps or whatever they maybe, I have done my own boots on the ground investigation - some things were corret and other reports false. I can only speak of what I saw - and what some persons who I know to be relaible also saw.

I have a question to ask - just looking for opinions - Global warming - is it part of the "strong delusion" that the Lord God will send?
The earliest video of Beechgrove Indiana is from 1996, while there are more recent ones of this same facility, this is the most in depth. You can do a general search on youtube of FEMA camps or USA concentration camps and find videos of many more. Including ones in Texas, Chicago Il.,and many other places. I personally have pictures of one in Oklahoma that were sent to me via someone displaced by the recent tornadoes there. While the barb wire is not present at this one, the person who sent them told me the camp was in such a remote location, about 8 miles from the nearest anything, one trying to leave there would have little chance of escape without being tracked down first. He also stated seeing many of the same things such as guard towers, helicopter pad, windsocks, etc. He stated that though he only stayed there for a little under 24 hours he couldn't help but feel imprisoned considering the enviroment. He also spoke of areas of the camp that were off limits to the victims of the tornadoes and said there was a military guard over these areas. I would love to know what they didn't want them to see. I am glad I'm not the only one who sees these for what they are. Another interesting thing I found in researching this is that FEMA has the ability once a state of emergency has been declared to suspend the US constitution. They don't require authorization to do so, and there isn't a government body that can do anything about it once they do. They also have the ability to arrest and detain any citizen without cause and with no preset amount of time they can hold you. In other words the government has given them the ability to institute martial law, arrest and detain indefinitely the citizens of this country without proper cause or motivation. I wonder why a institution whos purpose is supposed to be emergency management would be given the keys to the kingdom so to speak?!? I will dig up all the above info and get it posted here in the next day or so. Before finding this I had often wondered how they could persacute people without having some sort of facility set up in advance, much the way things were in Germany. However I always thought we would see the majority of the government globally in place first. What concerns me now is how much more is our own government preparing that we are not being told of. If the New Agers are to be behind this upcoming world government and religion, than it appears they may have a firm grip on policy making in our current enviroment. This does seem to have all their ear marks. We already know their involvement with IBM who makes the RFID and Verichip technology. It appears they just need a catalyst to bring their plan to fruition. Given this info and Constance's comments I would love to see every ones thoughts on 9/11, the current Iraq war and the policy changes that have occured since.

I may have been misunderstood in my post to Dorothy. It was not my intention to say she was an unreliable source. Quite to the contrary, I sincerely look forward to speaking with her in depth. My only goal in my statement to her was truly to make her understand the weight of how she presented herself. If I happen to post something, you can believe I have done exhaustive research, as I rarely believe anything at first glance. This is also why I did not post comments initially, I wanted to wait for you guys to look into them for your selves. I also have read much of the documentation listed on public record regarding these that are covered in the videos. Before I trusted Constance as a source I looked deeper into the works of Alice Bailey, Marilyn Ferguson, David Spangler and the lot. Too many people are misled by taking info given by some as fact, instead of devoting time to finding the truth. I encourage all to put me to the fire. How ever this can still be done while acting lovingly and civil toward one another.
Annonymous I tried to look at the post about the UN/Solana/Kosovo issues but it is coming up as a non existent page.
I hope this cleared up any misunderstanding over my comments. I chose to do this publicly as the comments to Dorothy were public. As such I felt all who read them deserved an explanation.I believe we should own up to what we state, as such if something stated is not understood properly we owe it to each other to correct the issue. Thank you for bringing this to my attention Dawn.

His love to all

I'm not too sure what to make of the global warming issue. Your statement could be spot on. Or this could simply be a way for the world to explain away and deny the begining of the birth pangs and judgements. Though we know how this ends up for it states that a time will come when they will curse at God, and their hearts will be hardened, even though they know the judgements come from Him! I can't wait to see how they try to explain the great earthquake or even Wormwood!
The stone that the Bilderbergers have rejected is the chief cornerstone.

Re the camps. I wish I could document what I'm going to say, but it would take too much time to go back into my files. If you care you'll do the research. Christians, homosexuals, pagans, occultists, pro-lifers, socialists, etc. have all been warned in their literature that if their opposition comes into power there are camps into which they will be thrown.

An academic contacted me who was connected with a former military guy named Cuppett who is a disinformation agent. He tried to get me to buy into the idea that over a post office in a suburb of Chicago people could be taken and questioned. Stupid idea.

With all of the garbage out there, it would be a very unique individual who has not been taken in at least one time by all of the lies out there.

Warning to others: Once you are discredited by spreading questionable information, if your real name is known, it doesn't matter what you say that is truthful. All of the people who use aliases will not be there to support you.

JD, the tinyurl for UN/Solana/Kosovo works for yours truly, but the long form is:

And original newslinks are as follows:


In relation to Constance's blog re. Kosovo - Jerusalem, cannot help wondering if a precedent is being set with regard to UNIFIL (UN troops in Lebanon), etc.
Hi Lynn,

Here is a link to Amazon and the book, "Introduction to Classical Evangelical Hermeneutics" by Mal Couch. I've not read the others, but I respect the work he has done in this book. When I first became a Christian, I didn't know how to interpret Scripture. My mentor suggested this so that I would have solid principles to use.

JD, my last name and location are public information here on this blog. What is your name and contact information?

How much are you willing to stand behind your information?

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies."

Dr. Solana has direct oversight of the Rafah Crossing (south Gaza Strip, active but temporarily suspended) and the EUPOL COPPS in the West Bank (see recent blog by Farmer, link accessible on Constance's front blog page). See also links on left side of Dr. Solana's website:

After 27 years of research is there a track record of how many times you've been wrong ?
I mean have you ever been wrong ?
Is there any way to know ?

It's enough of a warning that it easily happens to newbies.

JD - would rather you email me off the blog with your information. That way we can stay on task of the New Age movement here on the blog.
If you have any published works: books or articles
I'd love to read them.
Any journalism awards / recognition?
There must be plenty after 25 years of painstaking research.
Please where can I get something.
I like to check references.
Please don't forget to post as Dorothy in your reply as I can never be sure of all the pseudonyms.

I will cheerfully speak here for Dorothy. She has been one of my primary researchers for the past 26 years, since 1982 when we first talked and then met in Chicago. Dorothy has given me MANY invaluable leads in research which was always impeccably done at great sacrifice to her other pursuits. Dorothy almost singlehandedly alerted the Jewish world to the New Age dangers. I am requesting that as a personal courtesy she be treated with respect on this board. This is not to say that we always agree -- we have not, but her role in alerting the world to the "hidden dangers" of its supposed "New Age rainbow" has been vital. Dorothy's support came at a time when some noted "Evangelicals" were fighting bitterly to keep me from any platform in getting word out -- the word did go out -- worldwide -- and Dorothy Margraf played a vital role. I am proud to call her my friend.

Sarah Leslie, Editor of CONSCIENCE MAGAZINE and owner of the blogspot HERESCOPE will be my guest tomorrow afternoon on MY PERSPECTIVE.

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