Friday, June 13, 2008


Sarah Leslie, Editor of CONSCIENCE Magazine and popular blogspot HERESCOPE is my scheduled guest today on MY PERSPECTIVE internet and satellite radio program.  We will be discussing  the now not-so-mysterious appearance of New Age leader Willis Harmon on various  evangelical platforms.  We will be discussing the roots of that appearance and the fruits of that push.  Was Doug Coe's Fellowship Foundation involved?  What was the role of Paul N. Temple, a board member of Fellowship Foundation d/b/a "International Foundation"?  What if anything did this have to do with the determined efforts of various "cult watching" groups such as SCP (Spiritual Counterfeits Project), CRI (Christian Research Institute), and EMRI (Evangelical Ministries to New Religions) to suppress anti-New Age information from reaching the Christian community.   What was the scope of these efforts?  Are they continuing? 

Tune in and stay tuned!

Today, June 13, 2008, Irish vote "NO" on Lisbon Treaty.

I was in a court mandated electronic court filing training session this morning and I thank Farmer and the others for posting the news, which I did not first expect to read in the comments section on my own blogspot.  I rather suspect some will believe this means things are more remote rather than closer.  For the following reasons, I suspect not.

The ancient prophecy of Daniel:  "And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron:  forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all tings:  and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.  And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:  BUT THEY SHALL NOT CLEAVE ONE TO ANOTHER, EVEN AS IRON IS NOT MIXED WITH CLAY."  Daniel 2:40-43

But, there will be a turning over to whoever and whatever the beast is the power of these kings -- strong and weak:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.  These have one mind and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lam shall overcome them . . . (Revelation 17:12-14) 


I suspect there is a great deal of panic in Europe right now -- I wonder who has best track of the marbles that can put the pieces together in the eyes of the leadership of these countries?  I suspect I know, but then again, your guess is as good as mine.

The prophecy of the antichrist was that it was a vile person who would arise to whom they would NOT GIVE the honor of the kingdom -- he would come in peaceably and obtain the kingdom by flatteries . . . and with the arms of a flood would he be overflown from before them.

At the very least, we are living in interesting times.  Stay tuned!

Ireland votes No to Lisbon Treaty
Ireland votes No!
And the Celtics won last night.

"The European Union could negotiate a "legal arrangement" with Ireland to avert a crisis if the Irish 'no' vote wins victory in a referendum on the new EU treaty, France's European affairs minister said Friday.

EU leaders were awaiting anxiously the results of the Irish referendum, with early indications pointing to a rejection of the Lisbon EU reform treaty."
Erin go Braugh !!!
I know you are busy and have bad weather in Michigan, but I am reposting your comment and my response with some slight modifications from last night because sometimes people don't look at 207 comment blogs and when I wrote it I was tired, so I want to make sure this one gets read since you accused me of sharing things in common with a fringe group again. In the future, IF I comment on your blog, I will try to keep it shorter...

Constance Cumbey said...
Joyce, you may think you have nothing in common with the MSOG Movement, but I do presently believe you have more in common with them than you presently suspect.

As your research and contributions are otherwise valuable, I believe in letting God do the convicting and sorting out BUT I fear that unless people learn how to use the "collapse comments" section a I just did that the length of your posts might deter others from comment participation and/or careful reading.


My comments would be a lot shorter if I didn't have to respond to ludecrous remarks for the THIRD TIME OR SO like I have something in common with the MSOG. I have been accused of being a New Age plant on your blog, a heretic ( indirectly) arrogant, having false humility, etc, etc. and yet Dorothy, who attacks everyone on the blog seems to be above and beyond reproach. The funny thing is I mostly quote the Scriptures.

And, by the way, I have nothing against Dorothy, I just want to point out the inconsistencies on your blog.

I am really not interested in becoming an expert on the Manifest Sons of God, but I did read enough about them to know that I have nothing in common with them. As I said to you before, if you want to level accusations why don't you look at the Scriptures that I provided and address my interpretations of them instead of trying to throw me into a box with theologies that have ABSOLUTELY nothing in common with what I think. There seem to be some people who can see through what is going on on your blog, then there are those that may not bother to look and will just accept what your saying is true.

I can honestly say that at this point I am beginning to lose a great deal of respect for what is going on here.
Here is another article on the MSOG, but a discernment website. All I can say is maybe you think you read what I wrote, but you didn't bother to read carefully or compare it to Scripture.

I will say again, it is irresponsible to try to slander someone. If you know what I believe is so wrong, then go to the Scriptures that I quoted and tell me where my error is, otherwise please refrain from associating me with a group that I have nothing whatsoever in common with. As I might have said before, in a court of law you'd have to do a much better job of providing evidence than you have here, so don't lower your standards for me.

Here is one quote from the MSOG:

Bill Hamon writes, “The Church will gain victory over the last enemy, death. Victory speaks of a battle being fought. The last day saints will wage and win a warfare against death. The last generation saints will come to translating faith in preparation for participation in the translation.” (The Eternal Church, P.349)

I do not believe this at all. I believe Yeshua defeated death when He rose from the grave.

"The Central theme to Manifest Sons of God doctrine is the belief that sonship to God comes through higher revelation via apostles and prophets. The Christian life, has levels to go through, to reach maturity. The first level is that of servant of God, the next is that of friend of God, following this is to become a son of God and the realization of gods ourselves. much like the new age potential in man)"

This has no relationship to my beliefs either.

Constance, what in the world are you talking about?

I don't believe this either.

...or this:

"Some believe that the second coming of Jesus is to be “in the Church,” before he comes for the Church. That the Church, his body will actually become Christ on earth, glorious and triumphant. They will go Conquer the land and then rule the nations with a rod of iron. Some believe that after the Church has taken dominion over the nations, she will hasten the day that will call Jesus back to earth and hand the nations over to Him."

This is another belief that is so far off from my beliefs it's not funny........


I believe that Yeshua was born of a virgin
died on the cross and rose on the third day, is coming back to set up to reign from Jerusalem. I believe in the bodily resurrection of the saints at the end of the Tribulation, I believe that Yeshua will reign for 1000 years with the saints in the Millennium kingdom then, Satan will be unbound for a short time and after he goes to his final defeat, the New Jerusalem will descend and it will last forever. I believe that Yeshua and the YHVH are echad ( one) I believe that all Scripture is God-breathed and useful for rebuking, reproving and training in righteousness.

I believe in a literal hell, where those who are not redeemed will be eternally separated from God. I believe the only plan of salvation is that we believe on Yeshua the Messiah for the forgiveness of our sins, and our sins will be forgiven. There is NO other way to the Father, except through His Son.

I believe that God's covenants with Israel are eternal, and that all that He said He would do from Genesis to Revelations has either already come to pass or will at sometime in the future. I believe that all of the tribes will be identified and will be given their land inheritance all with the nations in the Millennial Kingdom in accordance with Eze 48. I believe that the House of Judah and the House of Ephraim will become one nation again as the tribes are reunited, in accordance with Ezekiel 37:15-28 under Yeshua.

I believe that we are called to go to all the nations and make disciples. I believe the gospel will go out to all the nations and then the end will come. I believe as the Gospel goes out to the nations, God is also gathering up His elect, among His elect are the "lost sheep of the House of Israel"( the Northern Kingdom) who became "not a people" when they sinned with the golden calf again and committed gross spiritual idolatry, but they will once again "become a people" according to Hosea, Paul and Peter. ( see previous posts for Scripture references). I believe that the Kingdom of Israel was punished after the reign of Solomon by God by being divided and scattered and that the Jews were the visible remnant of Israel, but by no means all of physical Israel.

I believe what Yeshua said, He did not come to abolish the Torah, but to fill it to the full measure with significance by accomplishing everything that was written and giving it meaning when we realize it's all about Him. I believe that all that is written by the Moses and the Prophets is about Him. I believe He is the kinsman redeemer who came for Israel. He is the expected Messiah and He is fully man and fully God at the same time.

I believe that Man is inherently sinful since the Fall in the Garden when Satan tempted Adam and Eve and they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was removed from God's presence , and cannot save himself only Yeshua can us through His death and resurrection. I believe that God's dealings with Mankind is His sovereign plan to restore us to a relationship with Him so that we can dwell with Him forever. I believe that all of Scripture is teaching us how He planned to accomplish that and how He ultimately did by cleansing our sins through the shed blood of Yeshua. Once someone comes into a relationship with Yeshua, the natural fruit of that is to walk in obedience to His Word, through the power of His indwelling Holy Spirit which guides us in all truth. I could probably go on and on, but I think most on the blog get the idea. If this is a place that is hostile to Bible believers and believers in Yeshua, then perhaps the New Age agenda is not our only worry? We might have to worry about friendly fire?

If I make any more comments, I will try to keep them brief if, you would refrain from trying to undermine my reputation and accusing me of having affiliations to a cult. My doctrinal position can be substantiated with Scripture, so if you want to question it, do it with Scripture. To say that all we need to do is to believe in Yeshua and our sins are forgiven and to love our neighbor as ourselves is not a new statement.

The great Jewish rabbi Hillel said that the Whole Law hangs on those two commandments and all the rest is commentary. God gave 66 books to speak of Himself and while the most important thing about them is our redemption in Yeshua, God has left us lots and lots more information about Himself to learn, so I chose to keep learning and growing and I learn new things every day.

Now, this is a short statement of faith without all the Scripture references, but I am always happy to make a longer one and put them all in. For the sake of your blog, I'm shortening the comments. If you have any more questions about what I believe instead of statements about what you think I believe, I would prefer you address a specific doctrinal point instead of making sweeping statements that are plainly false.

Shabbat shalom,

1:11 AM
Yes, the "Celtics" have WON in more ways than one . . . don't mess with the Irish people!!!

Hot off the press (

Friday June 13 2008

THE LISBON Treaty has been emphatically rejected.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen was facing into a nightmare summer after voters turned the treaty down in all but four constituencies.

The news was met with astonishment in Brussels.


It led the euro to fall to its lowest in over a month against the dollar.

Commentators claimed the vote was as much a reaction to the current economic downturn as a rejection of the Lisbon Treaty.

“We believe people are upset are rising costs of food, mortgages and clothing. That we believe is as much a reason for today’s result as any public apathy towards Europe,” said one government minister.

European governments say there is no ‘Plan B’.

“If the Irish people decide to reject the treaty of Lisbon, naturally, there will be no treaty of Lisbon,” French Prime Minister Francois Fillon said yesterday.

In some areas, such as the hugely working-class Southill in Limerick, 84 per cent of people said rejected the treaty.

Tallymen and other observers said the pro-treaty vote appeared to be holding up only in Dublin's more middle-class districts.

But even there they said, the ‘yes’ votes were barely running neck and neck with the ‘nos’.

A ‘no’ result throws the 27-nation EU into diplomatic turmoil following the 2005 rejection by French and Dutch voters of the EU's proposed constitution. The Lisbon Treaty proposes many of the same reforms contained in that failed treaty.


All EU nations must approve the painstakingly negotiated pact for it to become law. Ireland is the only EU member country subjecting the Lisbon Treaty to a popular national vote.

All others are ratifying the document through their national governments.

“It’s a huge decision for this country,” said Labour TD and spokesman for justice Pat Rabbitte.

“One has to respect the decision of the people.”

The treaty, intended to make the EU stronger and more effective, had the backing of all the main political parties in Ireland, a country that has prospered from its EU membership.

But while Ireland ranks in surveys as one of the EU's most pro-European states, opponents have argued strongly that the treaty reduces small countries' clout and gives Brussels new foreign and defence policy powers that undermine Ireland's historic neutrality.

The treaty envisages a long-term president of the European Council of EU leaders, a stronger foreign policy chief and a mutual defence pact, and changes the rules for decision making.

Fourteen countries have already ratified the treaty in their national parliaments. The treaty was due to come into force on January 1 if it was ratified by all the nations.

Former British Labour TD Tony Benn said today: “I hope that Irish voters don’t underestimate the impact of their vote.

“As a British person I feel my freedom is in the hands of Ireland. That’s a turn up for the books,” said Benn.

“Even before the debate started, when I was out at farmers’ meetings, I detected a very negative view,” said Ireland East MEP Mairead McGuinness.

- Kevin Doyle, Cormac Murphy and Connor Feehan

© 2008
Joyce, dear:

PLEASE get over yourself.

This blog is not about YOU.

Thank you.
Posted by Holly at the Yeshua's Midnight Watchman blog on Wednesday, June 11, 2008:


After reading several blogs by Christian authors I felt compelled to write a sidebar note on my blog. After reading multiple rants on soapboxes from these blogs my brain was a pile of goo. I literally felt the inability to reason or compile thoughts or form a sentence. Then I thought about who is viewing these blogs. Avid Biblical Scholars, seminary students, pastors, evangelists, or possibly missionaries????

I would assume that they were every day Christians that were searching for truth or an answer to a question about Jesus or the Bible. What a spider web they have become entangled in. They believe that if they read it on these pristine, Christ looking websites that the facts are true and of God. But what do they actually find?

Before I go any farther I want to clarify a couple of things. I am grouping myself into this mental rant as a blogger, so no pedestal perching for me. I believe that the majority of Christians that post blogs have the sincerest intent and want to spread the Good News of Jesus and call out as watchmen…as I do. PLEASE FELLOW BLOGGERS DO NOT BE OFFENDED (Offence is in Satan’s tool bag, remember?) BUT DO QUESTION, ASSESS AND PRAY ABOUT WHAT I AM ABOUT TO WRITE (BTW not yelling, just wanted to get your attention:>). I know that I have and will.

OK, back to the question…what do these searching Christians find? They find a multiple of explanations about individual’s interpretation/impressions of scripture, pastors and churches. They find a path to distraction. Some blog authors mix scripture and their own interpretation into what they call God’s Way, when clearly it is muddled. I look at the squabbling among bloggers and posters and that is what the Church, the Body of Christ, looks like. Squabbling over doctrine, interpretation and all the while thinking that this is fruitful. In the mean time while we bicker and argue there are new or lost Christians shrugging their shoulders going….well, I give up…even these people don’t know their tale from their ears.

Our intent should be to encourage, call out as watchmen and lead people to Jesus. Do you realize that Jesus sees the blogs too? What do you think He thinks about what we have done with his Word and what do we say about His gift of Salvation?

Here is a list of some rules that we all should consider

* Jesus is Love: Love everyone that comes to visit your blog, pray for them, and lead them through the Word if they need to be led to correction.
* Don’t Judge: We can assess a Preacher, or Church and sound the alarm of an error in ways but don’t let that be the end. Pray for them. Do we wish to throw stones or do we wish to throw prayers to heaven for them?
* We are all believers trying to find the path to Jesus. Not for our sake but for His Glory. Maybe the best idea is to pick up your Bible and read it, not some man’s interpretation of it. Praise Jesus in song and dance and in everything you do….David was a good example to follow.
* Repent and seek Jesus…He just wants to love you….

Loving you all in Yeshua. This believer is on a different place in my walk with Jesus, Yeshua…..everyone is at a different place. It is part of the journey. Remember that we are to have one hand extended in front of us, depending on another Christian to help us, while we extend a hand behind us to help a fellow Christian on their walk. We need to stop fighting and get on the same page…..what a mighty army of God we would be here…but, yet again, humanity and flesh get in the way. May Jesus forgive us and help us understand Him for He is truth and life. I wish Jesus would just come back.



Posted by Yeshua's Watchman at 1:09 PM"

7) How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace;that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8) Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.

Shabbat Shalom
Peace on Jerusalem
Amen, Joyce

I was watching Todd Bentley.
It occurs to me that the deceivers go out to deceive and the believer goes out and believes, and gets deceived, but still, believes.
And God steps in and blesses the believer and reserves the deceiver, (who is also severely deceived), for judgement.

And why should a blogsite be any different ?

Dear anonymous,

Yes, Dorothy, you're right, the blog isn't about me, but since you ( I think you were the first to come up with this bizarre idea) and Constance decided I was with the MSOG, I did want to respond and give a clear unambiguous statement of what I believe.

Yes, the blog is about exposing the New Age. In order to judge what New Age is and isn't we use Scripture as our absolute standard of truth. What's your standard for evaluating the New Age?

For the majority of people here Scripture is from Bereshit ( Genesis) to Revelations. I know that doesn't fit into your world view at the moment, but that doesn't make me a heretic. Think about it..

Constance, and everyone else on the blog needs to exercise a little caution about accusations against the brethren, or in this case the sister in Yeshua, whether she calls Him Jesus or Yeshua is not the issue. I am not the enemy. I love Yeshua with all of my heart and I do love people and want to see them come to know Him, Jew and Gentile alike. That's one of the most important things in my life and it's not something I fabricated on my own, that is what He did in my life.

Constance was the one to point out several blogs back that one of the strategies of the New Agers was to divide, so I will point out that my doctrinal statement does not deny either the Deity, the sonship or the death or resurrection of Yeshua, which would be the Biblical definition of a heretic according to some of the verses that Constance herself quoted. Ask Constance if she would deny the truth of this verse:

1John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 1John 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

If she is honest with you, she will tell you that she believes this too. This is the same Bible that she reads.

I know Constance really likes you, and I hope and pray for your sake that one day you will come to know your Jewish Messiah, but in the meantime Dorothy, all the research on the New Age will not save you. Salvation is from God and Yeshua is God's Salvation. Instead of Constance warning me that I am on the wrong track, she should be warning you. I know Yeshua and the power of His resurrection.

I came back from the funeral of a good friend yesterday to the ridiculous comments on the blog, and was so disgusted. Death has a way of doing that. The truth is Dorothy, you need Yeshua. All your Jewish blood will not save you without the blood of the Jew who died for all of us, including you.

Call me any name you want. My main point in continuing to write on this blog in the first place which I was reading for a year an never wrote a comment on was to tell you about Yeshua. I actually have a deep burden to see my people saved, knowing what we have been subjected to for centuries and centuries, which is why most of the time I put up with your insults. Now you have heard, and it's up to you to do what you want with Him, but remember "he who has the Son has the Father also".

May you rest in the Shalom of Yeshua who gives us everlasting rest. When you die and we all will some day, like my friend did this week, you can know that you will be in the face of place to place meeting with God, the place of HaMaqom...You can be assured of the resurrection, and eternal dwelling with Him.

Short of that Dorothy, you will be judged on the basis of Torah, and if you have lived out a perfect Torah-observant life then you would be one of the only one who has besides Yeshua. At least I know I haven't live a perfectly Torah-obedient life.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that is the truth and if Constance really loves you as a friend, she will tell you this too. It's more important that I tell you the truth, then worry about offending you. If the gospel offends so be it! That is true love. I'm so glad that the gospel offended me..

Excuse my being so blunt today, but I would rather that you know and then you can do what you want with the information. I'll be praying that the Ruach HaKodesh touches you and draws you to Yeshua.

Shabbat shalom,

thank you!

What are you trying to say with your last comment about the blogsite?

I don't necessarily subscribe to the beliefs of the Yeshua's Midnight Watchman site...I don't know enough about all of that, still learning, still teachable...And still wanting to read the Bible for myself rather than just rely solely on someone else's interpretation of it...or cherry picking scripture to make whatever point they're trying to make.

I posted that blog entry from the other blog because...I am finding things difficult here. I'm finding it difficult to be here. That's about as tactfully as I can put it. I am finding things getting so difficult here and I am becoming sufficiently upset about it that I am about ready to stop coming to this website altogether. Maybe it would be prudent of me for the time being to just read Constance's entries and leave off with the comments portion.
Prayer to Our Lady of Knock

Our Lady of Knock Queen of Ireland, you gave hope to your people in a time of distres and comforted them in sorrow. You have inspisred countless pilgrims to pray with confidence to your Son, remembering His promise: "Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find."

Our Lady of Knock, thank you for interceding in response to the prayers of so many.

Ireland, through the work of St. Columba and countless others, known and unknown who selflessly dedicated their lives to Christ and his Kingdom, you kept the flame of Christianity burning during some of Europe's darkest hours. Today I learned that flame still does burn here, however obscured and hidden.

People of Ireland, I have never been so proud of you as I am today.


I hope you continue to be involved in these conversations. I know it can be tough to sit and watch others bicker. I believe I have stated this multiple times yet it seems to fall on deaf ears. I simply wanted conversation with some whose mind is not like mine, but may offer differing views. As to the post at 11:24 Amen I could not agree more. This is precisely what I have been trying to say for 2 days. Continue to read and discover for yourself as only He can reveal to your heart what is right.


Amen!!! Yeshua/Jesus is risen indeed!! I am not going to make any comments on your beliefs, I am not here for disproving others. I can only assume your intentions are what you state they are as I have no reason not to trust you. May your faith always be in Him!


you said in your post "...I am finding things difficult here. I'm finding it difficult to be here. "

While I'm sure some of the dialog on the posts is difficult for you please hang in there. Try not to get upset at some of what is said. In a broad perspective it might be beneficial to you.

Some of it gets to all of us periodically. However there is much value in many of the posts.

Try to think of it as an exercise in discernment.

If you need a more involved discussion on anything might I suggest to you that you could email those who post comments that you think have a sober, scripturally based attitude, I'm sure they would be glad to share their thoughts with things you find troublesome. There a many here that would try to be of help to you and they have provided an email addy for such situations. Mine is on my profile here.

Hope this helps you.


I agree with you completely.

This blog has reached TOXIC levels due to two self-absorbed persons (in particular) who are completely intolerant & disrespectful of other opinions.

While typing biblical passage after biblical passage, they fail to see that they're missing the most important quality of all -- the one which Jesus commands us ALL to do: "Love thy neighbor as thyself" -- not "Love thy neighbor ONLY if he/she agrees with me!!!"

They actually believe that if they can out-type you, they will "win" an argument. But, sadly -- they're only fooling themselves.

That's why a few good people have dropped off this blog -- not because they're not tough enough to handle it -- but asking themselves, "Why should I put up with this, when life is so short?"
I'm evidently in a proof reading slump. Please replace "a" with "are" apologies

To answer your question, let them that read understand.

The truth is Lynn, I feel exactly as you do and here's why.
My mother made a certain point to me many times,
(I'm sure many others have had the same point driven home)
She would say: You know Paul, a person can steal my money, and a person can steal my property and that's okey, though I might not like it. But never let anyone steal your good reputation, because it's the most valuable thing you own.
I was slandered by Dorothy. She called me things that were untrue, and uncalled for. AND I've witnessed her doing it to other people. Not lies about current events or differences of opinion, but lies designed to hurt. Slander. False witness.
So Lynn, I feel confused too. But mostly I feel like I've wasted my breath here and that things aren't really as they seem.

The name Jezebel comes to mind.

But Lynn, you wrote the solution already. Read the Bible. In it's entirety. Plow through it no matter how long it takes. When you're done you'll have a lot of answers that are more valuable than silver and gold.
I might be wrong about everything I'm thinking right now, it doesn't really matter.
God will be glorified. God gets all the glory.
They think Christians are naiive and gullable, and maybe they are in some ways. I'd rather be a redeemed fool than a brilliant slanderer.
The Proverb says:
"By slander even a wise man is brought to ruin"


That 10:00 AM post to "Joyce" from "Anonymous" was NOT from "Dorothy."

Do you know what they say about the word, "assume?"

It begins with the letters "ass" -- and that's what you end up making of yourself whenever you "assume" a statement before verifying first.

Thank you.
In any given heated discussion posting anonymously usually adds more heat than light on any post.

Posting with a name helps clarity.


“The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. An evil soul producing holy witness is like a villain with a smiling cheek.” -- Shakespeare

Just some "food for thought."
Dorothy/Annonymous or whoever posted at 2:15pm,

Is there really a need for this? Does it make you feel like a bigger person to imply someone who mistook the identity of a poster is an "ass"? These are your words, albeit childish they are yours the same. I honestly can't believe I am still seeing this type of self righteous name calling, that while thinnly veiled under "an old saying" is just that name calling. None of this reflects nor glorifies God and any attempt to state so is beyond atrocious to me. Any one who can spit such vile things at will truly concerns me as to their motives. I am beginning to wonder my sanity in continuing to post here myself. It is becoming increasingly obvious that some can blatantly call others childish names and run over others, while if some one states something to contradict this person they become villified. This is the definition of hypocrisy here folks. Either changes and appologies need to be made by those perpatrating this or I cannot respectably remain part of these discussions. I am ashamed.


I agree, names help with clarity. Whether or not someone posts with a name or anonymously, though, is a personal decision. If and until the webmaster herself institutes a policy of "no anonymous posting allowed", the person making that decision owes an explanation to no one here, including ones who always sign their name (and will remind you of this, repeatedly, as though it somehow makes them superior to or more "courageous" than the anonymous posters).

If someone draws an inference from an anonymous post, that is THEIR problem, not the problem of the anonymous poster.

Past experience on this blog has revealed that posting with a name does indeed help with clarity, but does nothing to help with charity.

Nowhere in the Ten Commandments does it read "Thou Shalt Not Post Anonymously." Nowhere in the sermon on the mount does it say, "Blessed are they who sign their names to their statements instead of speaking anonymously."


Posting with a name just puts a person in a "box" to be labeled and "dealt with" accordingly, whether it be:

1) a Protestant box
2) a Catholic box
3) a Jewish box
4) a new age box
5) an atheist box

It really should not MATTER whether someone chooses to remain "anonymous" or not.

That is really more YOUR "issue" and NOT the anonymous poster's issue.

You are merely showing frustration toward that anonymous poster, as if to say: "How DARE you not allow me to put you in a "box," so I can "label" you!!!"

More evidence of an arrogant "un-Christian-like attitude toward those who feel they have the right to CHOOSE to remain anonymous.
Atheism is a religion.
Atheism is a religion that requires faith.
Atheism makes sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving, and money to the idol of Self.

To JD:

With all due respect, you are still new to this blog.

There have been numerous times when Dorothy has been confronted and "raked over the coals" for an "anonymous" post that has been attributed to her that she did not write.

So, today was just the "frosting on the cake" (so to speak) regarding certain people who are quick to make assumptions - when they turn out to be the WRONG assumptions.

It's called exasperation!!!

So, please forgive me for being quite human.
So, now Paul is going to ASSume that "anonymous" is an atheiest???


After you have been on this blog for awhile, you will observe just WHO is doing the "running over" of others . . . and which ones just get fed up and leave entirely.

Just fasten your seat belt and sit back and pay close attention.
"So, now Paul is going to ASSume that "anonymous" is an atheiest???"

Well, if past performance is any indication of future behavior, anything said by an "Anonymous" that isn't entirely to Paul's liking will be somehow "interpreted" by him as a form of persecution of all those on this blog he deems properly "Christian" by HIS standards (including, of course, Paul himself).

Then he will begin to pontificate to all his buddies about how glorious it is to be persecuted for the sake of the kingdom.

Just give it a few minutes...Paul's around today.

As a relatively new reader of this blog and someone who has only had her own blog up and running for a little over 2 weeks- I found this blog 2 weeks ago and was initially comforted to know that there were other people like myself who were aware of how incredibly evil the New Age movement and it's goals for world domination were/are.
I learned about this movement first hand when I was attacked in the mid-90's by a New Age Pagan out to destroy me and my students. Although I stood up to her, I was forced to put the movement out of my mind to preserve my mental health. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, the Lord awakened me from a long slumber recently and called upon me to take a stand once again for his name. I came to this blog seeking truth and fellowship from other like-minded individuals. I even entered Constance's blog to the top of blog link list- I was that impressed with all the knowledge she has.
But over the last few days, maybe even a week, I find I just can't come here anymore- even for knowledge.
I pray that you all stop fighting among yourselves- the enemy is at work here for sure. Please, I implore you people, go back to fighting the good fight. We need it desperately now, and although most of the time people here are not overly consumed by the importance of Obama, I can tell you that his people are methodically removing every single shred of evidence against him from the Internet and using vile tactics against the people who are brave enough to face the truth head on and report it. I'm happy about Ireland , yes. But the fight will only build in intensity from here, and God's people can NOT fight amongst themselves.
I'm done.
New or not to this blog, NEVER is there a reason to act so childishly. This goes for both sides. Previous actions do not give cause for a person to act this way either. If said person was going to get offended by some one attributing something to them that was not theirs. They should make a better habit of assigning their name to their work. Dorothy is guilty of this as I have personally seen interaction between she and Constance where Dorothy asked her if she(C) assigned her(D) name to a document she(D) wrote as she(D) had left it nameless. If you don't want your work confused with others take credit for it. When people accidently assume, no matter what the history, it does not give some one the right to name call. I can't believe this is actually being defended. While I have seen people criticize Dorothy's work, sometimes harshly, I have yet to see a personal attack such as the ones I have witnessed from her. This behavior only perpatrates what she says shes a victim of, if she has been personally attacked then I feel for her. But my advice is still to be the bigger person and not stoop to that level. All it does is defame her character to the level of said attackers. Which leaves me as an outsider looking in put off to the works of all involved. And for one to defend this is ultimately saying that two wrongs do indeed make a right. I am still ashamed.

A 3:34,

I'm sorry but I don't want to witness any running over! I highly doubt I will stick around if this continues. You can take sides if you want but I must tell you as an unbiased observer, no one is in the right here. If this bothers me so deeply I can only imagine how it is impacting more impressionable new believers.

Mr Hopper,

I completely understand your plight. Feel free to email me
if you would like to discuss anything. I myself am beyond words with this.

No anonymous 3:11 and 3:27 I wasn't responding to your 3:11 post within less than 3 minutes. It was a coincidence that I was addressing atheism, but now that you've called me an ass a couple times I will respond to the 3:11 post which was a very smooth lie.
It's a lie for you invoke Christianity as being the religion of love and compassion which it is. It's a lie because you don't believe in Christianity or Christ, otherwise you wouldn't have to slither around anonymously and spit poison out from under your tongue anonymously.
You bite at the horses heels so that the rider falls over backwards.
Good luck with that.
Also the Devil may be able to cite Scripture but you haven't read past page one.

"It's a lie because you don't believe in Christianity or Christ, otherwise you wouldn't have to slither around anonymously and spit poison out from under your tongue anonymously."

How childish and petty of you Paul. Thank you though for reminding us once again of your swami-like ability to read into the hearts of anyone who posts here. Next time please share your wondrous gift of omniscense and just post a detailed list of all the names of the people here with either a "Heaven" or "Hell" next to each name, so anyone in doubt about their or anyone else's eternal destination will no longer have to spend sleepless nights in either worry or curiosity.

My, with your myriad of spiritual gifts you should think about writing a book and going on Oprah.

I am personally getting very tired of the bickering on this board . . . THERE ARE BIG ISSUES OUT THERE . . . Paul and Joyce, please lay off Dorothy. Joyce, I respect your research, but resent your trying to monopolize everybody's reading time on this board. Just as I have "Carrie Tomko: A Catholic Perspective on the New Age Movement," I would be just as happy to link to "Joyce: a Messianic Jewish Perspective" or whatever you choose to call your own blogspot. I am certainly happy Google gives us this lovely forum so far for free -- I would hate to pay for the extra bandwidth that your article size posts entail.

I did not say you were MSOG -- I said that it appeared obvious to me (and it still does) that SOME MSOG teachings had permeated the Messianic Jewish Movement, i.e., the "Manasseh and Ephraim" shtick - - (how's that for a yiddish word?)

Paul, please go take a long look at yourself in a full length mirror.

You constantly complain about being "slandered" and yet you, yourself, insist on slandering others on this blog.

You are a total hypocrite!!!

When are you going to grow up?
The only thing easier than calling a spade a spade as I do, is to insult people anonymously, as you do.
By the way I never said you were Dorothy, though in most cases I'll admit I do assume that.
I've never claimed anonymous was Dorothy here.
Check it out
It's just you anonymous. That's your name, right?
Hate to change the subject during a food fight- but Tim Russert has just died. I do not think this is a coincidence.
He was one of the few journalists that I actually thought was honest- I was dismayed when he so obviously supported Obama. (you could see it in his eyes.) But then again so did I for many months. Remember that movie Eyes wide shut? This guy tullies everything he touches.
"The truth is Dorothy, you need Yeshua. All your Jewish blood will not save you without the blood of the Jew who died for all of us, including you."

Grow up Joyce. Your arrogance is an embarrassment and a disgrace to Christians who actually try to live their faith. Try learning some respect for other people and for the religion of other people.

I like your Yiddish, but I'm no schlemiel, so what might appear to you, might only be an appearance. I try not to hold resentments because it develops into bitterness and sin, but that would be about the 5th time ( but whose counting) you have associated me with MSOG, which I already assured you has nothing to do with what I believe. I don't think it's productive or conducive to peace on the blog to continually repeat that when I already read their material and told you plainly, I disagree with their major doctrines. What do you hope to accomplish by saying that again?

I wrote a clear doctrinal statement, which explains what I believe so if you have some issue with what I said, then address my statement? That would keep the peace and shorten my comments considerably. I'm not trying to confuse anyone on the blog. I actually think people need to dig into the Scriptures themselves and learn as much as possible. My doctrinal statement was just to clarify who I am, not some whacko with some cult, which was what you implied.

Mormons believe that there are tribes scattered, but that doesn't make me a Mormon. We can't make some superficial connection to something someone says and draw major doctrine out of it. WE NEED TO BE SO CAREFUL WITH THIS. I can't emphasize enough. I put my doctrinal statement down for a reason. You said something that I felt was not only damaging to my reputation, but blatantly false and you persist in doing that, so I keep writing. I had a number of people on your blog encourage me, so I guess someone got something out of what I wrote?

If you have some concern for my eternal security based on my doctrinal statement, but all means talk to me about it. It might be that God is working among the Jews in our day and we are discovering the Hebrew roots of our faith. Remember the whole Bible with the possible exception of Luke is written by Hebrews. I don't think it's something that just Joyce is doing. There are thousands that are making this discovery, since the gospel was veiled to the Jews for centuries. This disturbs Jews who don't believe in Yeshua because they think we're doing idolatry, worshipping "another god". It disturbs Christians who have had a monopoly on the faith for the last 1900 years and don't like their comfortable assumptions challenged. We are right back in Acts 15, trying to understand what the apostles were really talking about. All that aside..

It's very Jewish to discuss things this way, so forgive me acting like a Jew. I will not accuse you of anti-Semitism for questioning the Messianics and associating them with MSOG. I'll just chalk it up to 1900 years or so of not being part of the conversation. I feel like telling a Jewish joke here. Oy vey, they said we killed Mashiach and now we believe in Him and they say we're meshuganah because we don't want to eat shrimp. Oy Moishe, will we ever make them happy.

Just imagine Constance, if God is working again among Jews today and saving them, don't you think it would be good for Dorothy to hear that? I'm not picking on Dorothy. I like her. She's very witty in a funny sort of way. I don't know her, but I bet if I met her in person we might even hit it off. You never know.

It would be better if you would focus attention on Dorothy. She needs Yeshua and I am not saying that with any malice. I'm saying it from the bottom of my heart. I am secure in my relationship with Yeshua. I don't want to start a Messianic blog or any other such thing. I only posted on your blog the first time because I saw a discussion that interested me. I didn't come here to offend anyone or monopolize anything. I shared things from the Bible which I really thought was okay to do, but it upset some on the blog. There were others that seemed to appreciate the comments.

There is such a thing as a spiritual battle, and I would just encourage all of us to be aware of it here. If Bible verses become a source of conflict then maybe the evil one is interfering, so all I can say is don't shoot the messenger. I'm sure you're all familiar with this verse. This is what we have to be aware of in the Last Days...

Eph. 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

As for the anonymous person. If you are not Dorothy, excuse me. You sound a lot like her though and I know that she posts anonymously and under pseudonyms too.

I didn't bother Dorothy. I simply shared the gospel with her. If that is bothering Dorothy, then I will gladly go on bothering not only her but others too. Paul wasn't always well-received in the synagogues where he preached...

For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of salvation for everyone who believes, first to the Jew and then to the Greek. Romans 1:16

For all who are either new to the faith or new to the blog.......sorry if I did anything on my part to discourage you. My sincere apologies..

Whoever made some remark about the devil quoting Scripture.......I agree with you, except usually the devil doesn't want to see people come to know Yeshua when he quotes from it. I do. How about you?

Resting in Yeshua this Shabbat,
To the anonymous poster. That was not meant to be arrogance. That's a spiritual fact and I didn't make it up. It's what the Scriptures say. If you don't like it, take it up with God not me.

p.s. anonymous, maybe the reason I'm a disgrace is because I'm not a Christian. I'm a Jew. Think about it. Joyce
Joyce, I was in the doctor's office from 9 am until 3 pm today. Just got home. Because I'm old enough to be retired, I don't think the doc will send you a note excusing me for not posting here today. Do you not understand what being on Total Ignore means?

"I didn't bother Dorothy. I simply shared the gospel with her. If that is bothering Dorothy, then I will gladly go on bothering not only her but others too. Paul wasn't always well-received in the synagogues where he preached..."

Newsflash to Joyce: I don't need you to "share" your interpretations of the Gospel with me and neither does Dorothy. I'm sure she has a library card of her own and is perfectly capable of reading and interpreting the Bible without your assistance.

So your justification to those who object to your arrogant and offensive conduct is to compare yourself to Paul (the apostle), and anyone who criticizes your methods is the equivalent of those who rejected the gospel as preached by Paul? Boy, you've sure covered all angles, lady.

If this is what people act like at your church, please publish the name and address so I can make sure never to make the mistake of going there.

You have one of the most enormous egos I've ever encountered on the World Wide Web. It really is astonishing in its magnitude.
Hope you're okay Dorothy, sincerely..and I'll let you answer your own question.
No, I am not the Apostle Paul, nor am I Yeshua. I just try to learn from their example, and neither of them minced their words when it comes to eternal truth. That's what a talmidin or a disciple is. They both offended people. Yeshua confronted the religious leaders all the time and called them on their hypocrisy. Paul got thrown in prison and beaten for the sake of the gospel. He kept preaching when he was forbidden to. Go read for yourself in the Scriptures.

There was also Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah etc. They were also pretty outspoken, but I'm not comparing myself with them either. I know it's politically incorrect to share my faith on a "mixed" blog. So shoot me. Welcome to the Last Days. It's only going to get worse from here folks.....

Blessings to you,

Your interpretations of Scriptures lack all credibility because of the sheer arrogance and condescension with which you treat anyone here who doesn't flatter your enormous but extremely fragile ego.

I suggest that YOU should stop telling other people what to do, and instead take your own medicine and go and read the Scriptures, because their true meaning obviously has not sunk in one iota for you.
I did not think Ireland was part of the original Roman Empire of ancient times, either.
Dear anonymous,
Thank you for your kindly worded advice. I do and will continue to read the Scriptures, and what you perceive is arrogance is not confidence in my flesh, but confidence of the finished work of Messiah Yeshua. I really place no confidence in my flesh, but I do believe that as the Bible says, His Word never returns empty.

I know someone who heard the gospel and rejected it, but 20 years after the seed had been planted, this person had a miraculous salvation experience.

Someone who mentored me once years ago said, "humilty is confidence properly placed in Yeshua the Messiah". If it sounds otherwise, it might be that I'm not gifted at writing, but my confidence is not in myself but in Yeshua. If that doesn't come through on the blog, maybe I am better in person than on blogs:? You don't know me or what my ego is or isn't, so it's best if you don't judge from some blog comments.


You've got an interesting point. Maybe the Irish smelled something rotten in Brussels and couldn't stand the stench. I can't wait to see what the EU will do about this. You know, maybe they should settle for a 3/4 majority like we do for the U.S. constitution. Oh well, who am I to impose?

David in Battle Creek

P.S. I noticed that JD is also from the Cereal city. Interesting!
Tim Russert has died and so has journalism in America. You won't hear anyone else ask G. Buzch
about his Skull&Bones oath. Tim did.
The press has been informed that there will be no questions about that very sensitive subject.

Dorothy has not espoused any religion and the only detectable faith she has is in herself. Thus Atheism.
She could have corrected this by saying something a long time ago but she hasn't and she's an atheist.
Is this wrong Dorothy? Is your "faith" a secret?
That's fine. Everyone has that right. So why do you try to silence Joyce?
Joyce's comment is true, and compassionate. Is Joyce trying to please you or anyone on this blog or is Joyce trying to please God ?

Well Joyce, I am delighted you have investigated the MSOG beliefs so that you most likely will not step any further into them -- they give people bits and pieces at a time -- when they have reached a level of "maturity" where they can accept it (like levels of initiation in the occult). I am still concerned about the "lost tribes" and "Ephraim and Manasseh" aspects, but as long as you have it straight, as you apparently do, that God is God and we are not, for now I am happy.


Who has the most posts here today?
Who is slinging mud?
How easy and deceitful is it to shoot like a sniper and a coward from a safe distance ? I own what I say.
It would be annoying but there is the peace that passes all understanding.
In fact I'm jumping for joy.
Joyce, Read Zechariah chapter 12, conversion of the Jews will not happen en masse until that prophecy is fufilled -- The Jewish community for now may not understand Jesus, but they sure understand Hitler and God will wake up all in good time!

A friend
Trust me, you had no need to worry. That's not my style. I would encourage you to do a careful study the role of the two houses in the Bible. It is actually a Biblical theme that has been grossly distorted by a number of different groups..
Can't we all play nice in this sandbox? Why do we have to insult Dorothy, Paul, and the others? Why can't we have differences of opinion without being ugly about it?

Let's all grow up!
Can't we all play nice in this sandbox? Why do we have to insult Dorothy, Paul, and the others? Why can't we have differences of opinion without being ugly about it?

Let's all grow up!


Joyce has made some invaluable contributions to this board, so let's not play tit for tat with her either. The poster who wrote about Zechariah Chapter 12 is well taken!

Blessings to you all.
TO "young grasshopper"


Thank you for your contributions!


I was looking at your Statement of Faith and now have more questions:

"I believe that Yeshua was born of a virgin
died on the cross and rose on the third day, is coming back to set up to reign from Jerusalem. I believe in the bodily resurrection of the saints at the end of the Tribulation, I believe that Yeshua will reign for 1000 years with the saints in the Millennium kingdom then, Satan will be unbound for a short time and after he goes to his final defeat, the New Jerusalem will descend and it will last forever. I believe that Yeshua and the YHVH are echad ( one) I believe that all Scripture is God-breathed and useful for rebuking, reproving and training in righteousness."

You have said you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture -- neither do I -- I believe the mid-trib position has more scriptural validity; HOWEVER, do you believe that we leave this planet at all? Paul clearly said that we meet the Lord in the air. I am concerned that if people are expecting to meet the Lord in Jerusalem they could be sitting ducks for what another very excellent servant of God, Fr. Seraphim Rose (he died in 1982 about the time my work went very public) wrote in his must read book, ORTHODOXY AND THE RELIGION OF THE FUTURE:

"The Second Coming of Christ will be unmistakable: it will be sudden, from heaven (Acts 1:11), and it will mark the end of this world There can be no 'preparation for it -- save only the Orthodox Christian preparation of repentance, spiritual life, and watchfulness. Those who are 'preparing' for it in any other way, who say that he is anywhereh 'here' -- ESPECIALLY 'HERE' IN THE TEMPLE OF JERUSALEM -- or who preach that Jesus is coming soon' without warning of the great deception that is to precede his Coming: are clearly the prophets of Antichrist, the false Christ who must come first and deceive the world . . ."

I don't agree with all of his Russian Orthodox theology, but the words above were truly inspired.

I would like clarification.


Dorothy most certainly is NOT an atheist.

Dear friend,
I am familiar with this verse and agree with you that the Jews ( Judah) will have some kind of corporate conversion when they see Yeshua coming. Interestingly, though there are many coming to know Yeshua today from among the Jews today. Many are returning to Torah, and not all are the same. There are varying degrees of Torah observance among the Messianic community, but the most interesting thing is that 50% of Messianic congregations are made up of Gentiles and no one can explain this. I cannot prove this Biblically, and won't even try, but perhaps some of these are from the tribes. This is going on all over the world, not just in USA. There are Gentiles searching for Hebrew roots of the faith and wanting to join with Jews in worship.

We have no idea how many there are from the other 10 tribes because they themselves don't know who they are, but God does. I think we'll be in for some great surprises when Yeshua comes back!

Ireland votes No and there is no plan B

I absolutely do believe we leave the planet. At the sound of the last trumpet the dead in Messiah will rise first and all who are still living will meet Him in the clouds. I believe what people refer to as the rapture is actually the resurrection. We meet Him in the clouds and are transformed. I believe this is one event. Then we will come and reign with Him.

Matt. 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt. 24:31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

We will see Him coming in the clouds! That's pretty clear.

What I don't believe is that there is a "secret rapture" and then afterwards the return of Yeshua. He comes back once and when He does we meet Him in the clouds, then He puts His feet on the Mt. of Olives.

I don't think the believers will receive His wrath, so I guess I would take a post-trib, pre-wrath position about Yeshua's return, although I'd love to be wrong. I do believe we will be warned by many signs. When it says we don't know the day or hour of His return, He says we will know the season.

Since I don't see a separate plan for "Israel and the Church" without going into the whole explanation about ecclesiology again, I see all of us who are alive at the time, being there for the Tribulation. In Dispensational theology, the church is raptured pre or mid trib and then the Jews have problems at the end when the church is out. I don't believe this.

I think we can learn a lot from the Feasts in Lev 23. It talks about us knowing the season. The Spring feasts were related to Yeshua's first coming ( i.e. Passover, Unleavened Bread and Shavuot) and the Fall Feasts related to His Second coming. I believe that Zech 12 is about a day of national repentance related very much to Yom Kippur, and the wedding feast of the Lamb is Succot. Yom T'ruah, commonly called Rosh HaShanah is the Feast of Trumpets. At the sound of the Last Trumpet, we have Resurrection. In the Fall the feasts start off with a period of repentance called the days of awe. Succot is most likely when Yeshua was born, the Feast of Tabernacles when He tabernacled among us. Ancient Israel dwelled in booths...God's teaching us about our temporary "dwelling places".
Sorry if I rambled. I'm tired. Time to sleep.
"So why do you try to silence Joyce?"


Wow, you sure have an interesting way with words. You have a very interesting interpretation of what it means to "silence" someone.

Apparently, in the "Dictionary according to Paul," if someone disagrees with Joyce, or challenges her arrogant and condescending manner (which is an INSULT to the saviour she claims to believe in, by the way), that person is trying to "silence" her. Nice reinvention of the English language Paul.

Last time I checked, the actual definition of "silence" was to to "put or bring to silence; still."

Given that this is a free country I will go ahead and exercise that freedom to disagree with Joyce if I see fit, and to highlight aspects of her appalling conduct when I see fit (I couldn't possibly highlight every aspect, they are just too numerous).

I can see that you don't like that I disagree with Joyce and am highlighting her bad bahvior, but your opinions, however predictable, are not my problem.

By the way, if I owned this website I would have shown both you and this ghastly woman the door a long time ago. It's called "having a threshold of decency" and the courage to enforce it. You and Joyce have the right to be here only because Constance Cumbey allows it.

One last thing: "Thou shalt not post anonymously." You still haven't shown me the citation where Jesus Christ commands this.
OK, for the comments regarding Jews being spiritually awakened and coming to know Jesus/Yeshua. This current movement was mentioned many times in scripture. One of the first was Ezekiels dry bones vision, many have believed the jews could not return to Israel until the awakening happened. Which is not how Ezekiel described it. He in fact stated that the bones would come together in a collective body without any breath in them. The breath or spirit only comes once the bodies have been brought back together. John in Revelation refers to this as the 144000 from the twelve tribes that are saved. I personally believe we may be begining to see the start of the "prophesying to the wind" from Ezekiel and/or the sealing of the 144000. That is not to say I believe we are at that exact point in prophecy yet, but every movement has a begining.

How does ANYONE here plan to reach a non believer? I have seen in the last several posts, accusations of atheism, desire to exile those who don't believe the same way some one else does, people from all sides claiming to be attacked when if they read the posts thoroughly they could see a disagreement with interpretation but there is no such attack on persons. For all those involved I am BEGGING you, get down off your self righteous crosses and find a way past this division. There is not one involved in these arguments that at the very least is not guilty of perpetrating and furthering this argument. Slandering each other is doing nothing more than driving away those who need to see what we are discussing. On the same token claiming martyrship because some one slandered you is not acceptable either, grow a thicker skin. While I don't agree with what every one posts, I can make a discernment whether or not people speak from faith or just misinformation. We can also post things to show misinformation without leveling accusations against one another. Does anyone else not believe there was a reason John said that every man must work out their own salvation? The twelve apostles them selves would have had issues of differing interpretation and they had walked with Him. We MUST begin to understand not all are going to view scriptures the same, this is actually a beautiful thing. As it provides a way for all to personally come to God. This also makes every relationship with Him unique. Could you imagine if every relationship in your life was the same? To all, just because some one doesn't agree with you doesn't make either side right. It simply means He decided to reveal Himself in a different way to some one. Maybe instead of jumping to refute the person, you should sit back, shut up, and just listen to all their beliefs. Who knows you may learn something that gives you insight about said person. Then even if you disagree you may be able to see the person for their intent in God. Because believe me, everyone that levels these accusations, argues over interpretation, or slanders a belief, you are equally as wrong in your interpretations and beliefs. I see too much arrogance in ANYONE assuming they have the right view.
Dear Lord,
I pray that You would move Your spirit through all involved in this blog. So that we could be brought together in You. Only You are capable of healing this rift. Please show all the error in their ways, so that we could come to You together in thanksgiving and praise. I pray that You would banish our enemy from causing division in this way, and that all actively involved as well as observers would be blessed by the fruit You see fit to produce from it.
In Jesus name,
JD, you state "if they read the posts thoroughly they could see a disagreement with interpretation but there is no such attack on persons"

That is YOUR personal interpretation of the posts. Others (myself included) have different interpretations and see a very vigorous, relentless, and deplorable attack on persons going on by some people here which we cannot continue to endure in silence, whether directed at ourselves or others (Dorothy is always a favorite and convenient target). That Joyce wraps herself in the Bible (which she uses as a decoy) as she engages in this behavior is absolutely disgusting not to mention blasphemous.

You are entitled to your view JD, but YOUR interpretation does not trump everyone or anyone else's. It is merely your OPINION.

With regard to your statement that some here have expressed a "desire to exile those who don't believe the same way some one else does" again, that, once again is YOUR interpretation of the posts.

Personally speaking I would have shown the door to people like Paul and Joyce because of their appalling BEHAVIOR TOWARD OTHERS, NOT because of their beliefs.

Beliefs are irrelevent. The issue is conduct and behavior. After all, I believe the man actually stated very clearly that by their "fruits", not by their "beliefs" shall you know them.

With regard to you question How does anyone plan to reach a non-believer? My suggestion: be treating others with respect and by standing up to bullies like Joyce and Paul who with their behavior toward others, continually make a mockery of the gospel.

I urge you not to fall into the trap of confusing your opinion and your interpreation with the Word of God. We already have too many of these here already.

Two remarks I want to address:

That Joyce wraps herself in the Bible (which she uses as a decoy).

Wrapping onself in the Bible is not a bad thing to do, and it's not a decoy. I genuinely believe in and love the Scriptures..Not sure what it would be a decoy for? Do you think I'm some sinister person who just quotes the Bible to "throw people off? Maybe you haven't had the pleasure of really delving into God's Word, so if you haven't I really recommend that you "wrap yourself in the Scriptures too". Sounds like Paul thought it was a good idea:

" Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints," Ephesians 6:11-18

Yes, I make a regular practice of "wrapping myself" in the Scriptures. One more:

Josh. 1:8 “This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.

I just believe what God says, no more and no less.

JD, you made a remark that I should grow and thicker skin and something about being a martyr.

I have VERY thick skin or I wouldn't be here. I didn't feel martyred, just misrepresented. There's a big difference. I agree with your remarks about the dry bones. In 1948 when Israel became a nation, it looks like the dry bone prophecy started to come to pass. The order in Scripture is that the
"God would breath His Spirit in them" after they became a nation again.

As for the 144,000, I don't think that represents the totality of Israel that will be saved but the leadership during the Tribulation and tribes being identified again.

If you read my comments I've tried to respond to remarks without insult people's character. That doesn't mean I'm not going to respond. Be prepared in and out of season to give every man the reason for the hope that lies within you...That's a paraphrase, but Yeshua and His Word really are my hope, so I don't feel like a martyr at all. I feel blessed that the God of the universe has chosen to pull me from the darkness and put me in His kingdom.

Having said that: Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the sons of God.

One more comment JD. Yes, we all see Scripture differently, but that's not because Scripture has different interpretations. It's because right now we see in part. I don't believe anyone has the WHOLE. Having said that, we should all try to be Bereans.

Ultimately salvation is from God. We can't save anyone, only proclaim the truth of Yeshua's work on the cross. After that we all work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I do believe we are all called to proclaim truth and sometimes it will cost us. That's not martyrdom. That's discipleship. If the persecuted Yeshua and His followers, we will be persecuted too. I don't consider what happens on this blog real persecution. Real persecution are the people that go to places like the Middle East or China and are beheaded or prisoned or beaten for the cause of the gospel. Through the blood of many committed people the seeds of the gospel have been planted. Some day soon that level of persecution might come to the Western nations, and the question we ought to be asking is are we ready?

Hi again Joyce. In response to your question: "Do you think I'm some sinister person who just quotes the Bible to "throw people off?"

Having observed your conduct at this blog for a while now, my answer is "Yes."

Maybe your posts at this blog are not a true barometer of your character in "real life" and you actually are a very nice person "in person" and have friends who can vouch for this.

Even assuming for the sake of argument that this is actually the case, in many ways it makes your behavior here even MORE scandalous I'm afraid.
Maybe some of you remember the 86 year old grandmother at the antiabortion rally in L.A. back in the 80s who had her arm broken? More recently those who were praying at a homosexual parade were arrested; the N.J. family who had their throats slashed for preaching that Jesus Christ died for them? There have been too many law suits to count concerning the religious rights of American public school children forbidden to write stories of their Christianity or to pray in Christ’s name. No one knows the harm of peer pressure upon young Christians in our culture, the feelings of isolation and resentment that festers as they, we, are treated like atavists. Some may remember the RICO laws being applied to people like Randle Terry? Persecution has many faces. I am one of those who felt that, when a freshmen in high school (public) rain of trouble, because I brought my Bible (King James) into class; that was one book you never saw, but like with Bill Clinton, The Leaves of Grass was “enjoyed” and even taught. I for one celebrate “Christ Jesus and Him crucified” not “MYSELF
One thing that I noticed, and I may be wrong, but this is just something I noticed.

The 144,000 sealed
1. are from the 12 tribes
2. are purchased as first fruits
3. then next place you see them they are in heaven
4. the were not defiled with women
5. there was no lie in their mouths, they were blameless
6. they follow THE LAMB where ever he goes
7. they are sealed just prior to the appearance of the great multitude in heaven, those who have come out of the great tribulation.

I would expect, then understanding the concept of firstfruits, that the 144000 are gathered or presented to the Lamb prior to the main "harvest".

the main harvest- or gathering together, will be a resurrection to those who have fallen asleep, but will be a "rapture" to those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord in the clouds.

I would expect then, that IF and this is an IF since we all really don't know, the Rapture occurs pre-wrath, and that roughly translates to a feast of Trumpets, then we could also see a "first fruits" rapture of the 144000. I know that it is often speculated that they will be the witnesses during the time of the tribulation, but so far I can not find any other scripture to back that up

Please let me know if you all can recall where the 144000 actually witness or minister to the Earth

Joyce states (at 8:39 AM):
"I don't consider what happens on this blog real persecution."

Well, Joyce perhaps that's because you are the persecu-TOR - not the persecu-TEE!!!

In a "perfect world" we would ALL follow your advice, but too many posters refuse to "leave their egos at the door" -- in spite of Constance's frustrated pleas and warnings.

Thanks for sharing your lovely prayer for all of us. With God, ALL things are possible. Amen.
Psul asked "Grasshopper" @ 7:56 PM:
"Is Joyce trying to please you or anyone on this blog or is Joyce trying to please God?"

I would like to put a period on this comment section. I've been accused without justification of making comments which I never made by three supposed Christians over a period of time. In other comment threads I've been accused of writings things which I did not write. What good does it do to know the political and geographical history of Judaism and Christianity if one forgets the commandment not to bear false witnesss which is so much more important. When I pointed out that I wasn't even near a computer when I was supposedly making comments that these three individuals did not like to hear and they made false accusations about me, I did not get an apology. The problem had been called to my attention when a friend emailed me and told me there was a good reason not to respond to the attacks so I went over to the comments section to see what was going on.

This is exactly the kind of mob psychology that brought about persecution against Jews over the years. If we were in the middle ages, the firesticks and clubs would have come out. There is an ongoing historical pattern where an attempt is made to persuade Jews to convert and when they don't, the dominant community has become violent. In this case several individuals became verbally violent even though I was not around in an attempt to turn others against me.

In a situation where individuals trust each other, there is no need for anonymous comments. Whoever criticized the three felt it necessary to remain anonymous. I want to thank that individual, whoever it might have been, for taking the stand they did and not backing down in order to stay in the good graces of the bullies who post here.

For a long time I posted anonymously because I knew being Jewish could be a distraction where almost everyone was Christian. Then I started to trust and became open with who I was. Recently I started posting my factual information anonymously again because as the writer said, posters are being put into boxes and labeled before their information is evaluated.

I've developed bad carpal tunnel in one hand so I don't know how much I'm going to add for a while, but if I do add, I'll probably continue to do it anonymously. It's not necessary to deal with personalities or religious beliefs if the information is solid.

There is only a need to develop a thick skin if I was going into an ongoing verbal battle with lots of give and take. I'm not going to engage in that.


I've reviewed the numerous posts in this particular comment thread directed at you and there is no explanation for what has occurred here except blatant Antisemitism.

I've thought for a long time there was Antisemitism at this board in general (and that you of course bore the brunt of it because of your visilbility as a Jew) but the absolute proof is now here on this thread in black and white.

Thank you for your summary of the dynamic of how it actually works in the "real world" of which this blogspot is a microcosm. I hope it will not fall completely in deaf ears.

The silence of many people here in response to this vile dynamic is defeaning.

Thank you for reminding me why I left this online community in the first place.

God save us all.

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