This is a sleepless night for me -- fortunately, I keep a computer bedside just in case. If the night leg pains get too intense, I can sit up and research until sleepiness might set in. That is what is happening with me now. I have been paying attention recently to the continued spread of the Moonie cults and former President Donald Trump and company's relationship to it. I have found something extremely disturbing -- Huang Jin Sean Moon founded "Sanctuary Church" a/k/a "Rod of Iron Ministries." I ordered his book, ROD OF IRON KINGDOM and perused it tonight.
This variation of Moon's "True Parents" calls for members to be armed with AR Automatic Assault rifles. The Church believes that January 6, 2021 will be remembered as a sacred and holy day in American history. It also believes it is preparing its people for war. As I showed in an earlier post, Donald Trump went to Korea last year and thanked Unification Church and the Moon founders for vastly improving the planet. The Pennsylvania based Rod of Iron Church has been visited and spoken to by Steve Bannon, Eric Trump, Doug Matriano and other members of the Trump establishment.
They believe they are preparing our country for civil war and they intend to be "God's instruments" fighting it. They take out of context a verse from Revelation (Revelation 2:27) that Jesus will rule us with a "Rod of Iron" -- and of course, since the Moon family think they are the ones completing "Jesus' unfinished work" they are standing in for Him!
They have bought a large compound near Waco, Texas and another in Grainger County, Tennessee.
For the record, Rev. Moon's "new gospel" was that Jesus failed in his mission which was to succeed and replace the race of Adam by marrying and having children. His crucifixion represented "a failure". Rev. Moon says he was called by God to fulfill that mission which he and his wife Jak Ha Moon (currently the head of the international church) did by having their 12 children. Huang Jin Sean Moon tries to sound like a Christian in his book ROD OF IRON KINGDOM. His theology is that his parents are the "True Parents" and their message the "true gospel." If you don't believe me, take a peek at their websites for "Rod of Iron Ministries" and "World Peace and Unification Sanctuary Church".
The Moonies are an important component of the New Age Movement of which I have warned for the past 42 years. One of their important spokesman admitted to me that they were working with Benjamin Creme and Tara Center (January 1983 - Joe Tully). Tully is the same person who assaulted Josette Sheeran's father when he tried to extricate his daughter in 1979 from the Moon cult.
This cult hooked up with the MAGA Movement, with a goal of restoring Donald Trump to the Presidency, treating January 6, 2021's assault on the United States Capitol as sacred, is armed and dangerous. Most certainly, there is no room there for any TRUE Christian. Donald Trump and his close supporters have done nothing to discourage it -- but to encourage it. I submit, that if you are in MAGA and/or Qanon, it is 'time to come out of her, my people."
 |
Another example of NAR Trump idolatry -- this one in my email box from Elijah list this morning! |
Stay tuned -- I will be writing more on this later.
CONSTANCE
1,808 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1201 – 1400 of 1808 Newer› Newest»FBI Denies Targeting 'MAGA Extremists' Ahead Of 2024 Election
Who us?
zerohedge.com/political/fbi-denies-targeting-maga-extremists-ahead-2024-election
If we had more 'MAGA Extremists', and fewer Cumbey Death Cultists, the world would be a little better.
Anthony Blinken said Americans could be among the dead and those taken hostage from the Hamas attack on Israel.
He must not have really said it, though, since MSNBC reported it and shared the video of him saying it. The video must be deep fake. It must not be real. So pay no attention to this news.
I've been scanning the news for the past couple days but haven't thoroughly scanned all the news this morning. I don't know if this has been reported elsewhere yet.
This is why I scan a variety of news sources. It's not because I left the cult to be influenced by the devil who completely controls the world outside the cult.
But adults choose their friends and choose their news sources as well, so do with this information as you see fit.
To me it seems like it could be very significant. It worries me as to a lot of possible ramifications that I feel too tired as yet to fully contemplate but begin to dimly sense...
Now I can affirm it's in the Breitbart very long headline this morning in the current top news story.
Now I think we can believe it.
Breitbart actually puts it a little bit differently, as a fact. Not that Americans may be among the dead, but that there are reports of dead Americans.
Oh, boy. Here we go.
Sober up, people. This is a big deal.
What, no response yet? Are you waiting for somebody to tell you what to think? Donald Trump already did.
Donald Trump: Terror Attack on Israel an ‘Act of Savagery,’ Must Be ‘Crushed and Avenged’
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/10/07/trump-terror-attack-on-israel-an-act-of-savagery-must-be-crushed-and-avenged/
“I stood proudly with our friend and ally, the state of Israel—and I will do it again,” Trump told the crowd as he began to discuss the recent violent terror attacks against Israel by Hamas.
"The terror invasion of Israeli territory and the murder of Israeli soldiers and citizens is an act of savagery that must and will be crushed and avenged. It has to be crushed,” Trump declared. “Israel is at war, and the United States has to support Israel. There has been no better president for Israel than me.”
He has millions of charismatic followers from all over the world. He's a fine example of a charismatic:
Kenneth Copeland vs. Kenneth Copeland: Stunning Hypocrisy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M95PbuIHp-Q
PS: Copeland, at 85 years old, noticed that he was going a 'little gray.' On a word of faith, he 'commanded his gray hair' to turn black. You'd have to be a total religious nut to follow this nonsense.
Accurate documentary exposing this religious fraud:
The Scandals and Luxurious Life of Pastor Kenneth Copeland | Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoEJoKggPd4
Someone predicted that now the Ukraine war will escalate and in the aftermath Israel will pull up stakes and move there tired of Palestinians throwing rocks at them. Funny.
Trump says It has to be crushed? I don't know what's more dangerous his ignorance or his arrogance
This hasn't been going on throughout church history, but is in reality a relatively modern movement. Watch this very informative video and learn how it all started, and by whom:
History of the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement (video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0YUdOtEr9k
Here's the link to a new video, out 10/7/2023 by Magical Mystery Church
THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW - by Constance Cumbey - chapter 9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o548kS77ag
X said at 1:40 PM
"But you need my audience."
Thought no one ever.
(that is too funny!)
FBI Stops By Antifa Riot To Ask If They’ve Seen Any Dangerous MAGA Around
LOS ANGELES — According to sources, federal agents confronted a group of Antifa rioters who were in the middle of burning down a courthouse so they could ask them if they'd seen any dangerous MAGA around.
"Hey friends, you see any of them dangerous MAGA around?" a special agent later identified as David Friedkin reportedly asked while attempting to shield his face from the blaze. "It is imperative that we find them before they do something dangerous like calmly walk inside a federal building or vote for the wrong presidential candidate."
Witnesses claim one of the Antifa rioters was kind enough to stop throwing Molotov cocktails so he could answer. "Well golly gee wiz, mister! No MAGA types here, but that sure does sound dangerous!"
"But we've been pretty busy burning down this building. Buildings don't burn themselves!" the loveable scamp added.
"Thank you, citizen," the agent allegedly said before running across the street to assault a bystander who was wearing a red hat.
Federal authorities are asking all American citizens to be on the lookout for dangerous MAGA extremists. If you suspect someone of being a MAGA, please contact the authorities immediately, or at least throw Molotov cocktails at them.
MacArthur To Build Wall To Keep Charismatics Out
SUN VALLEY, CA - John MacArthur, pastor of Grace Community Church and president of The Master's College and Seminary, has made a lofty promise to his congregation. He has reportedly committed to building a 20-foot thick, 30-foot high concrete wall around the entire perimeter of the church campus in order to keep out charismatics that might otherwise infiltrate their ranks.
"I will build a great wall, God willing. And I'll build it very biblically. I will build a great, great wall all around our campus - and I'll make the Pentecostals pay for it. Mark my words," MacArthur was quoted as saying Friday.
It was during MacArthur's keynote speech at his Shepherd's Conference last week, hosted by GCC, he unveiled the first details of the massive structure. "These little lines all up on top of the wall? They're 50-caliber Browning machine guns," he intoned proudly. "When you factor in the barbed wire, 24/7 guard patrols, and boiling hot buckets of tar kept at the ready, there's no way the strange-fire-starters are making it through. They'll be slain alright, but not in the Spirit!"
The estimated cost for the project exceeds $700 million, a cost MacArthur states will be billed directly to various charismatic organizations.
Craig,
Ha ha…
In that same spirit of comedy…
I see you are still struggling identifying sarcasm.
I mean what good would a 20’ x 30’ wall do when continuationists have Paul’s 1 Cor 13:2 authority to literally move mountains?
X
PS : Dodgers or Diamondbacks?
Nah, who needs latecomer Paul (1Cor 13:2) when we all have Jesus (Matthew 17:20) who well-preceded him--by aeons, even.
PS: No idea. I don't watch or follow pro sports.
x should stick with trolling.
He won't make a dime from comedy.
Figures of speech enrich the Biblical texts. Such rhetorical tools as hyperbole, irony, paronomasia, teachings by way of comparisons (kal v'chomer, aka a minore ad maius, 'from the lesser to the greater'), and idiomatic phrases sometimes escape 21st century readers. And we have to be careful not to make mountains out of molehills.
This looks like something worth seeing:
The Essential Church Official Trailer
Grace Productions
After months of hard work and dedication, we are proud to present the official trailer for our film!
Please share the trailer with your friends, family and on your social media and be sure to tag us. We are grateful for your continued support!
www.essentialchurchmovie.com
The Essential Church documentary tells the story of Grace Community Church’s struggle against the County and State of California. Mandated restrictions cause the church to close its doors indefinitely. The church congregation led by Pastor John MacArthur takes a courageous stand and re-opens its doors. Amid health and political uncertainty, the church files a lawsuit to protect their God-given rights. Facing fines and jail time, the church learns what is truly at stake.
This feature-length documentary explores the struggle between Church and government throughout history. This story takes us to multiple countries and uncovers those who have sacrificed their lives for what they believe in.
Journey with us as we rediscover why the Church is essential and how we prove that our stand remains true from a scientific, legal, and most importantly a Biblical perspective.
----
No; not "Allahu Akhbar". This god is clearly not the God of Abraham. (Viewer discretion, disturbing images.)
Capture of Civilians, Soldiers After Hamas Attack on Israel | WSJ News
WSJ News
The Israeli military said soldiers and civilians had been captured and taken into Gaza. There were also Israeli hostages being held by militants in at least two Israeli towns amid ongoing battles with militants, the authorities said. Photo: Hatem Ali/Associated Press
Government versus church is an age old and poignant subject. Throughout the pages of the Old Testament, we can see in various ways the same story being told again and again. It is the story of the kingdoms of this world versus the kingdom of God. The Bible consists of God saying the same things over and over and over again. He did not think highly of the Tower of Babel, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzur. He did not think highly of Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece or Rome.
If we neglect the Old Testament and read mainly or only the New Testament, it could become easier to miss the message, because the Apostles and disciples of the New Testament had much to say to the first century Christians about how they can be in the world but not of the world, in their own time and place.
It's possible to grossly misunderstand the many "submit to" statements, as if these statements can be taken to sacralize worldly authoritarianism, like that found in the ancient Roman empire. Only a little reflection will yield the conclusion--that doesn't make any sense. If it were so, Jesus would not have needed to die on the cross. Instead he could have accepted Satan's temptation to rule the kingdoms of this world, and he could have kept people in their places within the ancient Roman empire forever.
Christian wives submitting to their pagan husbands, and Christian slaves submitting to their pagan masters, was said to be potentially salvific for those husbands and masters. If this is so, then it's not salvific merely through people being subjugated to other people. That would be a blasphemy, and the children of Israel could have saved Egypt by being enslaved. Jesus would not have needed to die on the cross. This type of Christian submission must be something that can only be discerned and enabled through the Holy Spirit.
The "submit to" passages are intended to be understood in the context of first being "in Christ," meaning several things. The first meaning is to be a part of his body. The second meaning is to imitate him. The third meaning is to see him reflected in the love of the other members of his body.
Christian submission is voluntary and from the heart, and it happens whether somebody is looking or not. Its meaning is agape love, to act in the best interest of another, and going even further, to treat others as being better than oneself. It's the same concept as, "it's better to give than to receive," and, "in the kingdom of God, he who is first shall serve he who is least."
What implications does this have for Christian submission to the government?
Across the pages of the Old Testament, God did not have a high opinion of the kingdoms of this world. He didn't even have a high opinion of the children of Israel asking to have a king. The parable of the trees in Judges 9 wasn't just about Abimelech. It gave us a glimpse of God's perspective on whether he thinks people really need a king.
It gives us a glimpse of how God sees his ordering of the natural world. Because it is fallen, it consists of entropy among nonliving things and relentless competition to survive among living things. But it still shows ordering, not in a static way like an org chart, but in a dynamic way like a flow chart. Lions are called "king of the jungle," but the jungles have no kings. Monkeys have alpha males and alpha females, but they still gather their own food, and they don't make other monkeys gather food for them and then hoard all the food and starve out some of the monkeys who did the gathering work. Trees have their own place in the sun, and they don't exist for the purpose of waving over other trees. They are happy to grow as themselves producing whatever fruits they produce or growing to whatever majestic heights they grow to.
It's only mankind who can willfully and freely--to an extent but not without any consequences--behave in a disorderly way within God's flow charts, doing things radically different than original designs, or trying to do them. In the garden of Eden, there was originally no sin, no need for law or authority, no sinful will competing with other sinful will. God's created ordering had not been disrupted, and Adam and Eve didn't think about disrupting it yet. Innocently and blissfully they had a lot in common with nature, although being capable of sinning, unlike nature.
The topic of nature beings me to a reflection and development on the theme of the parable of the trees in Judges 9. It will lead to the insight that God should be the king but not man. Even the story of King David supports this idea, because David became a shadow and a type of Christ, and although he was the king of Israel at its golden age, he still sinned and pointed toward the need for the redeemer to come and to become the true and final king.
After the flood, God instituted civil government in its seed by declaring simply, whoever kills will be killed. The intention was very far from a power worshiping or self-worshiping entity to arise as a god unto himself and others. The intent was to limit sinfulness, and not by controlling other people, but by holding other people accountable.
Now we see that our governments are trying to prevent sin by controlling people to an ever greater and greater extent. Nothing in nature is micromanaging in the way that people are growing ever more micromanaging. Not only that but governments are attempting to improve upon nature.
It's a profound topic to think about. The Bible has at the same time so little to say about it, but also so much to say about it.
And Revelation has an Exodus theme at the end. The lake of fire and the second death come from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. They can't be found in the rest of the Bible. But this isn't the only Egyptian reference. If you pay attention you can find clues that the children of the kingdom of God were to be making a second Exodus from enslavement to the sinful world, to enter the promised land of the kingdom of God.
Pharaoh was a type of Satan, and his legions drowning in the Red Sea was a type and shadow of Satan being destroyed in the lake of fire, appropriately taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead, since there was nothing worse in the afterlife than the lake of fire and the second death, in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
I've only just begun to think about it, but I do know one thing. We won't be allowed to go on and on playing god by sinning to deviate from the dynamic ordering that God created, as we are doing in every which way possible all at once, to an unprecedented extent.
This speaks about nature persevering in God's laws, even though mankind does not. This is from the translated Ethiopian book of Enoch. It was second temple period literature, and Jude may have quoted from it. Jude did not start with, "It is written..." but he said instead, "Enoch prophesied..." It could have been lost, or it could have been lost and corrupted. Parts may be inspired, while parts may be imaginative. Regardless of whether you consider it inspired, this particular part of Enoch does not contradict the Bible, and it brings out more meanings from the book of Genesis.
2) GOD'S LAWS
2.1 Contemplate all the events in the sky; how the lights in the sky do not
change their courses, how each rises and sets in order, each at its proper
time, and they do not transgress their law.
2.2 Consider the earth and understand from the work that is done upon it,
from the beginning to the end, that no work of God changes as it becomes
manifest.
2.3 Consider the summer and the winter; how the whole earth is full of
water and the clouds and dew and rain rest upon it.
3.1 Contemplate and see how all the trees appear withered and all their
leaves are stripped - with the exception of the fourteen trees, which are not
stripped, which remain with the old leaves until the new come after two or
three years.
4.1 And, again, contemplate the days of summer; how at its beginning the
Sun is above it. You seek shelter and shade because of the heat of the Sun
and the earth burns with scorching heat, and you cannot tread upon the
earth or upon a rock, because of its heat.
5.1 Contemplate how the trees are covered with green leaves and bear fruit.
And understand, in respect of everything, and perceive how He Who Lives
Forever made all these things for you.
5.2 And how His works are before Him in each succeeding year, and all
His works serve Him and do not change; but as God has decreed - so
everything is done.
5.3 And consider how the seas and rivers together complete their tasks.
5.4 But you have not persevered in, nor observed, the Law of the Lord. But
you have transgressed and have spoken proud and hard words with your
unclean mouth against his majesty. You hard of heart! You will not have
peace!
5.5 And because of this you will curse your days, and the years of your life
you will destroy. And the eternal curse will increase and you will not
receive mercy.
5.6 In those days, you will transform your name into an eternal curse to all
the righteous. And they will curse you sinners forever.
5.7 For the chosen; there will be light, joy, and peace, and they will inherit
the earth. But for you, the impious, there will be a curse.
5.8 When wisdom is given to the chosen they will all live, and will not
again do wrong, either through forgetfulness, or through pride. But those
who possess wisdom will be humble.
5.9 They will not again do wrong, and they will not be judged in all the
days of their life, and they will not die of wrath or anger. But they will
complete the number of the days of their life. And their life will grow in
peace, and the years of their joy will increase in gladness and eternal peace;
all the days of their life.
There is even a reference in Enoch to the Watchers teaching women how to abort their fetuses. I have no idea how seriously to take it.
I do know that every version of Enoch I've read doesn't read the same. Some versions read in a highly imaginative and lurid way.
The Ethiopian translation I read didn't seem to contradict the Bible at any point at all, with the possible exception of adding the lurid tale of the Watchers creating Nephilim hybrid babies with human women.
The Son of Man was even mentioned in this book of Enoch, and everything tracked with the New Testament. So if it was second temple literature only, and nothing more, that's pretty remarkable.
The Exodus was prophesied by Enoch, and it tracks with the Old Testament. It doesn't read in a stupid way.
No doubt there has been some corruption of the written Enoch books, and there are several, so Christians have to treat it with caution and regard it as just a scholarly resource. But it can be very interesting to read.
This is the version I read recently:
https://scriptural-truth.com/images/BookOfEnoch.pdf
https://dailycaller.com/2023/10/09/rand-paul-deception-covid-cover-up-excerpt/
Government, Media, Fauci cover-up about Covid origins.
11:20 AM
Someone should hold his bosses accountable...
Time to lock up Francis Collins and disgraced former President Trump.
They were Gay and Proud, flying Their Flags before the Pandemic
They were Gay and Proud, flying Their Flags before the Ukraine
They were Gay and Proud, flying Their Flags before. . .
I'm I sensing a pattern here?
As Israelis stock up Israel's Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant has announced that Israel will impose a total siege on the Gaza Strip
https://en.globes.co.il/en/
Atten: Blackrock
God judges the world, but his churches should be counter-cultural, as they have historically been.
We can't be surprised when the world that doesn't know God behaves as if they don't know God. We should try to win them to Christ. Condemning them isn't a good evangelism strategy. (But that doesn't mean we can just tell them that sin is A-okay, either. If it's okay, then nobody needs Jesus to pay their sin debts, anyway.)
Paul told us to stop judging people outside the Church:
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 NASB
It's very serious that the churches themselves are increasingly preaching that Christians can live homosexual lifestyles, not only feeling their attractions, but acting on them. And even marrying people of the same sex as a sacrament and a covenant just like heterosexual marriage.
I don't think the problem is in the churches TBH, I think the problem is in Tel Aviv.
PS: where's x?
https://twitter.com/VDHanson/status/1710741034320417027
A close look at what has been and what is.
"When I was a boy in Hollywood, in the palmy days of the mid-sixties, my father (in addition to his grocery-and-rent-paying engineering job) wrote screenplays. None of these were ever sold, alas. But while I watched Batman and the Green Hornet, and stood bemused at the antics of the hippies, Dad’s fertile imagination ground out tale after tale. One of these, written in 1967, has chilled my marrow ever since, and never more than now. . .
The Return of Cromwell
by Charles Coulombe
https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/the-return-of-cromwell
2:52 PM,
"...a clash of rival dystopias..."
Brilliant!
That is certainly chilling, isn't it?
Somebody should make it into a movie or a streaming series!
Donald Trump at his rally in Cedar Rapids, Iowa on Saturday:
"Hannibal Lecter, how great an actor was he? You know why I like him? Because he said on television: 'I love Donald Trump,' so I love him. I love him. I love him."
3:02 PM
Is that you Charles? (excuse my familiarity)
https://catholicism.org/victor-d-hanson-tucker-carlson-collapse.html
From Biden to Iran to Hamas to Israel... FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!
Wall Street Journal: Iran helped Hamas plan its surprise attack on Israel, shortly after Biden handed them $6 billion
https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-10-09-iran-helped-hamas-attack-israel.html
Donald Trump's Israel Intel Leak Under Scrutiny After Hamas Attack
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-israel-intel-russia-hamas-attack-1833094
Excerpt: Donald Trump's sharing of alleged classified intelligence to Russian officials in the White House has come under scrutiny amid a large-scale attack by the Hamas Islamist military group against Israel.
In May 2017, the former president defended his actions after he was found to have discussed sensitive details about an alleged Islamic State (ISIS) plot with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Ambassador Sergey Kislyak in the Oval Office. Trump said he had an absolute right to do so. The intel was said to have been provided to the U.S. from Israel.
It was suggested at the time that the former president's handing over sensitive information from Israel could have damaged the relationship between the two countries. It also could have raised the possibility that the details could be passed from Russia to Iran, the Gulf nation that is a fierce adversary of Israel and has long supported Hamas.
On Saturday, Hamas, designated a terrorist group by the U.S. and the European Union, launched a large-scale attack against Israel, resulting in the deadliest day of violence in the Israel-Palestine conflict for decades. More than 700 people have been killed in Israel, and a further 400 in Gaza, since the incursion by Hamas, according to the Associated Press...
... "This isn't hard to follow," added musician and author Mikel Jollett. "Trump gave military intel to the Russians. The Russians, who are extremely close allies with Iran, gave it to Iran. Iran gave that information to Hamas. Hamas used it to attack Israel. This is why intel security matters. Republicans DO NOT CARE."
Newsweek has contacted Trump's office for comment via email.
Joshua Takes the Whole Land
So Joshua took this entire region: the hill country, all the Negev, all the land of Goshen, the western foothills, the Arabah, and the mountains of Israel and their foothills, from Mount Halak, which rises toward Seir, as far as Baal-gad in the Valley of Lebanon at the foot of Mount Hermon. He captured all their kings and struck them down, putting them to death.
Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long period of time. No city made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites living in Gibeon; all others were taken in battle. For it was of the LORD to hardend their hearts to engage Israel in battle, so that they would be set apart for destruction and would receive no mercy, being annihilated as the LORD had commanded Moses. Joshua 11:16-20 Berian Study Bible
{emphasis mine}
x
Darn old rooster keeps trying to attack me so I walloped him with a riding crop today. Now he gives me a wide berth but he's taking it out on the hens. Think I'll call him Bebe.
PS: I wouldn't want to be that guy on whose watch the IDF was took by some guys flying hanggliders and riding motorcycles.
All I can say that poor guy better do something spectacularly successful or else ) - :
Anon 8:00 PM,
I've an inklin' you were/are a fan of "Fractured Fairy Tales" (part of Rocky and Bullwinkle).
9:06 PM
No, not a fan of The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show. That kind of humor was way over my head, (thankfully). I did feel really bad about wacking the rooster though. Now everybody is looking at me like I'm a meany especially the guineas who come towards me whenever I walk by but today they went away from me ) - :
I have been noticing the animals acting differently the past couple of days (and me too). It's like the devil is loose so I prayed the rosary along with a David L Gray video while I watched the sun go down tonight.
.
8:00 PM,
LOL, I can recall calling the dog to take care of the childhood rooster for me so that I could brush and saddle my horse in peace. Being pierced in the leg by the spur on a rooster's foot--not any fun! The dog used just the right amount of force to get the rooster to be subdued for a few minutes, until the stupid creature forgot and tried again. It was just long enough for me to get up on my horse and ride off.
Funny chicken stories don't remind me of Fractured Fairy Tales. They remind me of Foghorn Leghorn cartoons on Looney Tunes. Some of those cartoons are still hilarious.
Here's a question I thought of this morning regarding HDToR. The idea is that demonic entities have communicated their plan, The Plan, to their disciples like Alice Bailey. The Plan involves the Externalization of the Hierarchy, or demonic gods being in charge of a one world government with a one world religion, through their chief representative the Antichrist. But there's just one problem. Why should we believe these demonic entities have full and reliable knowledge to convey to their disciples?
The Old Testament is the greatest resistance literature in the history of the world, because it concealed God's plan for his Messiah from first and foremost, Satan and Satan's legions. Apparently, and the Old Testament tells us this, and the Apostles of the New Testament believed this, the fallen angels had the gentile nations divided up among them. God had given up on the nations for the time being, except for Israel. Had Satan known the plan, he would not have entered Judas to betray Jesus.
Satan didn't even understand that the Old Testament had prophesied that Joseph, Mary and Baby Jesus would take refuge in Egypt temporarily. That's why Herod tried to have all the boy babies killed in Bethlehem.
Dispensationalists miss this aspect of the Old Testament. That's why they insist on taking it literally, even though the New Testament authors repeatedly reveal the hidden meanings of so many of the Old Testament prophesies. Jesus himself on the road to Emmaus told his disciples how to see him in the Old Testament after he was resurrected. There was a reason he waited until after his resurrection. He needed to continue to conceal God's plan from Satan until after his crucifixion.
Satan needed to play right into God's hands. Satan was tricked.
Why should we think that the demonic entities who communicate with disciples like Alice Bailey know everything that is supposed to happen in the future? God is sovereign. He is omniscient. The demons are not. And God never did reveal all knowledge to the fallen angels.
Psalm 8:4-8 reads:
Psalm 8:4-8 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
and the son of man that you care for him?
5 Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings[a]
and crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have given him dominion over the works of your hands;
you have put all things under his feet,
7 all sheep and oxen,
and also the beasts of the field,
8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea,
and whatever passes along the paths of the seas.
This passage read in a literal way is talking about mankind's dominion over the animal kingdom. But that's not how the New Testament writers understand and apply this passage.
Repeatedly, the New Testament writers use this Psalm in reference to Jesus' victory over the powers of darkness in the unseen realm. Examples can be read in 1 Corinthians 15, Ephesians 1, and Hebrews Chapter 2.
In 1 Corinthians 15:24-27, the all things that are being put under his feet are all rule, power and authority; and all of his enemies, including the last enemy, death.
In Ephesians 1:19-22, the same thing is going on: Jesus Christ is raised from the dead and seated at God's right hand far above all rule, authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. These are the all things being put in subjection under His feet.
The Writer to the Hebrews quotes Psalm 8:4-6 verbatim and says that all things that are being placed under Christ's feet are in fact in reference to the world to come.
Obviously, the New Testament writers are not interpreting Psalm 8 in terms of mankind's present dominion over physical animals. We can clearly see that the Psalmist's oxen, sheep and all wild beasts, have become Paul's rule, dominion, power and authority.
This isn't an unnatural connection to an ancient Near Eastern worldview. Many of the ancient gods of the other nations, who were fallen angels, were in fact, also represented by various animals.
I propose that Jesus Christ has already accomplished this in the spiritual realm, and this is why the gentiles of every nation have receiving the gospel ever since he finished his work. On the cross, he said that it is finished.
But the book of Enoch says that the spirits of the Nephilim would be trapped on the earth, although their fathers the fallen angels would be imprisoned. I think the beings we call demons might actually be weaker than the fallen angels that used to rule over the gentile nations. I think these demonic spirits are actually the spirits that are presenting themselves as the Great White Brotherhood and in many other guises. I entertain seriously the possibility that they have posed as both fairies and aliens as well.
Satan didn't mess around with things like this. He was busy ruling gentile nations and trying to thwart God's plans with Israel and trying to get Jesus killed ever since Jesus was born. I think it's the spirits of the Nephilim that still mess around with human beings.
In Psalm 22, which Jesus quoted on the cross when he said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" the Psalmist makes a prophetic reference to the "bulls of Bashan" encircling him.
12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
In Psalm 68:15, Bashan is called The Mountain of God, or more precisely The Mountain of Elohim, which literally means the mountain of the gods. Bashan was ground zero of Old Testament fallen angel geography. It was associated with Mt. Hermon, the place Enoch said the fallen angels launched their rebellion against Yahweh. Bashan was part of Baal's territory. Baal was represented by a bull.
The phrase about the bulls of Bashan must be about more than the wild animals that surrounded the shepherd David. There were no bulls at the foot of the cross.
Michael Heiser says, "The implication is that Jesus, at the moment of agony and death, was surrounded by the 'bulls of Bashan' demonic elohim who had been the foes of Yahweh for thousands of years."
Psalm 68 talks about the mountain of Bashan, the mountain of the Elohim (or the gods) looking with envy upon the mountain that Yahweh has chosen. Psalm 68 then goes on to say, of Yahweh's Servant: You ascended on high, leading a host of captives.
The same bulls of Bashan were Paul's rulers of this age and Enoch's Watchers who, if they had known the plan, would not have crucified Jesus Christ.
The bulls of Bashan were at the foot of the cross because Yahweh had brought them there, to their own doom, not the doom of Jesus.
I forgot to say that Ephesians 4 tells its audience that Psalm 68 is speaking about Jesus Christ and his victory on the cross.
If you read the entire Psalm 68 you'll see that the Psalmist says that Yahweh himself brought the demonic elohim bulls of Bashan to the cross so that his foot could shatter them.
On Palestine: Victor Davis Hanson, Jordan Peterson and Bobby Kennedy Jr. — Profiles in Cowardice
https://open.substack.com/pub/michaelhoffman/p/on-palestine-victor-davis-hanson?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
10:03 AM,
I'm not taking a position on either of the three men in the headline, but I read the article by Michael Hoffman. A few years ago I started reading this same author's book, Judaism's Strange Gods. I honestly never finished it, but I'm not closed minded to his message.
But let's not take all the heat off the aggressor, Hamas. Let's look at Hamas realistically. First, Hamas is quite likely to have felt threatened by Israel making progress toward wider peace in the Middle East. Hamas and Iran likely felt threatened by the movement toward better relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia. It threatens the position of Hamas if Palestinians see Saudi Arabia as a broker who gets a better deal for them. If this outcome were to have happened, then it would have served to sideline Hamas and Iran.
Second, Hamas has had control within Gaza since 2005. It has used this control to build tunnels and purchase rockets, missiles and incendiary kites. It has not invested in the economy of Gaza for the well being of the Palestinian people.
Hamas seems not to feel incentivized to care about provoking Israel to retaliate against the Palestinian people. It benefits when more Palestinian people die, because then Israel can become more de-legitimized.
Hamas could stand to gain by getting Hezbollah to join its conflict because of responding to the images of Palestinian suffering.
Question:
Who cares what the so called "Book of Enoch" declares?
10:03 AM
What a garbage piece of cowardice you posted.
Hide behind terrorists will you?
Israel is defending itself from the ancient hatred the Bible speaks reams about. it has gone on for 1000's of years. You are obviously Biblically illiterate to miss that.
There is no perfect nation but Israel is not the aggressor here. They have the right to exist.
The so-called Palestinians (who should civilize themselves so they can go back to Jordan and other Arabs actually hate them and won't help them) have taught their children to hate the Jewish people for many centuries.
Iran's murderous hands are all over this (so are Biden's and Obama pretending to speak against the Yassar Arafat's terrorist Palestinians while they kiss Iran's butt who is in league with them).
Israel is the little Satan to them and America is the Great Satan to the Iranian regime (which is not wholesale the Iranian people). Their "theology" demands Israel and America be annihilated.
Are you only willing to find this out the hard way?
8:44 AM
He seemed (the rooster) alright this morning.
Chicken Run is a good movie from the before times (2000)
'I told you they were organized'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uu73nLsUBM
Move over Moon, you're being eclipsed:
Apollo Quiboloy, The Newest Son of God Imposter, pt 1
Mike Oppenheimer
The man Apollo Quiboloy is a self-proclaimed Son of god, replacing Jesus, (The Messiah of the World). That salvation now, can only come through him, and him alone, his followers worship him and have what appears to be, a sworn allegiance to him.
It was alarming when Apollo Quiboloy (Born, and living in the Philippines) announced that he was now called to be ‘Gods appointed Son as the leader of his 6, up to 8 million member Philippine based cult following. Quiboloy has replaced the name of Jesus, identifying himself as a literal extension as the son of God (Jesus of the Bible) on earth.
His Church group is called: ‘Kingdom Light Colonies’ (KLC) and are all over the world. The USA, North and South America, Canada, the Middle East, Europe, Africa, Australia, and Asia), 4 to 6 million of his followers are in the Philippines. Quiboloy is a man who has deceived his followers to honor and worship him over the True Biblical Jesus.
He rejects the Bible when it says that Jesus has always existed With the Father and The Holy Spirit, (No beginning and No end), he rejects that Jesus is God, who came to the world through the virgin birth of Mary, he believes that Jesus was just a man.
Quiboloy rejects the teachings of Christianity, but yet still distorts and applies them to himself and to his followers.
The size of his membership has doubled in 10 years, and continues to grow. The 4 to 6 million members are among a Philippine population of 109 million.
This movement has the potential to become the most dangerous Christian cult group in the world, because of the fanatical fervor of his followers, combined with the influence he has over them.
In over 35 years of studying dangerous cult groups, it is our estimation, that if he and his followers continue on this current trajectory, there is a high probability that it will end like the Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple. In 1978 Jim Jones, who believed he was God, who was called Dad by his followers; led them into a collective suicide of 930 of his (Mostly American men, women, and children members) in their remote jungle commune, at Jonestown Guyana.
Jim Jones only had just under a 1,000 followers on his commune, in comparison to Apollo Quiboloy has over 8 million followers who are just as loyal and allegiant to him....
Anonymous
11:48 AM
Are you only willing to find this out the hard way?
Lesson learned. USS Liberty, June 8, 1967
https://twitter.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1711697093151056355
Horror scenes at unarmed Kibbutz
12:16 PM
Many things can go wrong in troubled times.
But there is a bigger picture you have entirely missed.
Hate gets people nowhere good.
The Israeli's are not the haters here.
Post the rest of the story instead..
"In all, 34 Americans were killed and 171 were wounded in the two-hour attack. In the attack's aftermath, the Liberty managed to limp to a safe port. Israel later apologized for the attack and offered $6.9 million in compensation, claiming that it had mistaken the Liberty for an Egyptian ship."
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001359215.pdf
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2023/10/10/exclusive-alex-marlows-breaking-biden-antony-blinken-is-the-patron-saint-of-the-military-industrial-complex/
‘Breaking Biden: Antony Blinken Is the Patron Saint of the Military-Industrial Complex
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/cogat-chief-addresses-gazans-you-wanted-hell-you-will-get-hell/
You wanted hell on earth-you will get hell for eternity.
That Gazans were warned to get out of the area unless they want to experience that fate.
Hamas warned no one while they murderously went after Israeli babies and women.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12615031/Hamas-terrorists-beheaded-babies-kibbutz-slaughter-IDF-soldiers-reveal-horrific-scenes-carnage-discovered-site-scores-people-massacred.html
Hamas terrorists 'beheaded babies during kibbutz slaughter where 40 young children were killed': IDF soldiers reveal families were killed in their bedrooms - 'not in war, not a battlefield... a massacre'
Some 70 Hamas terrorists wielding guns and grenades stormed Kfar Aza kibbutz
Anon 3:20 PM,
Rather than watch any of the video you pointed to, I took a peak at the transcript. Just as I thought, this should more appropriately be titled "History of the MODERN Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement (video)". And from taking a gander at a few of the comments (along with the title), my presuppositions seem to be confirmed: Peters apparently lumps ALL Pentecostals in with the hyper-charismatics. That's not only erroneous, it's irresponsible. Does Peters include Gordon Fee in this nonsense? For those who don’t know, the late Fee was “a leading expert in pneumatology [Person and work of the Holy Spirit] and textual criticism of the New Testament” (quoting Wikipedia). He also co-authored the popular level How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth (and others in the How to Read series).
Also, Has Peters not ever heard of Jane Leade and The Philadelphia Society? Does he not know about 2nd century Montanists?
Perhaps it would be better to read the book Tricia recently posted on:
The Roots of Today’s Apostasy
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/fm-wont-join-meeting-of-eu-counterparts-no-room-for-balance-theoretical-talk/
FM won’t join meeting of EU counterparts: ‘No room for balance, theoretical talk’
Javier Solana lapdog Josep Borrell EU chief wants to slither into discussion about Israel's Palestinian problem...
Constance is proving she's a literal Boomer.
1:45 PM Craig
Isn't it something how some have to demonize whole blocks of people in order to hold on to their suppositions and prejudices, against basically everyone else, not them? Their lump and dump summations of people are not only disengenous but also so false and disrespectful of people in general.
Imagine being so "right" all the time and arm chairing analysing everyone else just so you can feel better about yourself and the narrative you want to prop yourself up with, no matter what extremes you must go to to do that.
Claims false flag because no planes in the sky
https://youtu.be/cdmDMhZrKUU?si=DFTzrLnYBsTNrLFv
Debunked
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/protesting-pilots-a-factor-in-israeli-readiness/
Go Israel
PS: how's that Biden reelection bid going?
Anon 1:41/50 PM,
Kenneth Copeland just needs to be put in proper context:
Judgement on COVID-19 goes HEAVY METAL [Kenneth Copeland Remix] [I Demand]
Kenneth Copeland Returns! [Wind of God] [Heavy Metal Remix]
Copeland is such a scantily clad wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing, that most any actual Christian has no trouble discerning his ‘errors’. Frankly, I’ve no trouble stating he’s no Christian at all. He’s made so many blasphemous statements (God Himself used the ‘force of faith’ in the creation event, "little gods" doctrine, etc.), and his stage antics betray any sort of notion he’s a Christian.
Even NON-CHRISTIANS can see something just ain’t right.
...I should have used this one. At the very end, after Copeland 'speaks in tongues' (gibberish), the expression of the vlog producer is absolutely priceless:
Bald Cure... goes Metal! [Kenneth Copeland]
Oh, and using black shoe polish as hair color is not really 'God curing him of his gray hair'...
Another movie from the before times (2000)
The Adventures Of Rocky And Bullwinkle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwKNEf3r8qg
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Rocky_and_Bullwinkle_(film)
Wow, Fearless Leader looks like Kenneth Copeland
PS: in defence of Kenneth Copeland - my mom liked him
And just like VP Kamala stood by BLM so apparently does x, who made constant excuses for their summer of love riots here.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:k8O6gpE_YdMJ:https://www.mediaite.com/news/black-lives-matter-chapters-celebrate-terrorist-attack-in-israel-revel-in-slaughter-at-music-festival/&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
O'Biden has helped them immensely.
Hell gonna be hot.
TIMELINE OF EVENTS LEADING TO THE THREE DAYS OF DARKNESS ... - YouTube
https://youtu.be/iohRGfSS_ac?si=Hccnf_-GJ1FbhhI_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7vZiXxM_QM
Rand Paul has the evidence against Fauci.
What a surprise.
You need to see who voted against term limits!
The NASTY 19... termlimits.com/nasty19
Office First Name Last Name
WY001 Harriet Hageman
NY012 Jerrold Nadler
PA005 Mary Scanlon
TX018 Sheila Jackson Lee
TX016 Veronica Escobar
TN009 Steve Cohen
CA046 Lou Correa
CA048 Darrell Issa
CA018 Zoe Lofgren
MD004 Glenn Ivey
VT001 Rebecca Balint
CO002 Joseph Neguse
CA Adam Schiff
CA014 Eric Swalwell
WI005 Scott Fitzgerald
GA004 Henry Johnson
CA036 Ted Lieu
CA005 Thomas McClintock
NC002 Deborah Ross
---
But listen for the 17 who DID vote for term limits.
All Wars Are Central Bank Wars!
youtube.com/watch?v=okAF7VF75Vs
6:45 AM
After listening to snippets of Biden's speech then hearing he's sending in our troops and taking into consideration his cabinet I think I agree with the notion of term-limits
World War Woke
https://ismfrance.org/index.php/2023/10/11/coup-declat-strategique-en-palestine/
Remember X constantly defending BLM & ANTIFA, in spite of the fact that they are Marxist domestic terrorists? Here's a taste of what X defends:
BLM Chicago Mocks the Hundred Who Were Kidnapped, Raped, and Murdered at Israel Peace Festival With Hideous Meme
Go here to see the Meme that depicts a paraglider with a Palestinian flag attached to it.
https://thelibertydaily.com/blm-chicago-mocks-hundred-who-were-kidnapped-raped/
Craig 1:45 PM
Thanks for admitting that you passed judgment upon the video without having seen it. LOL
Something we need to come to terms with is this set of inconvenient facts. Republicans condemn Iran. Republicans support Russia. Russia supports Iran. Do you see the problem yet?
11:22 am
Remember Trump and all the anonymous posters here constantly defending the Trump/White Supremicist rally in Charlottesville a few years ago...even referring to them as "good people", in spite of the fact that they are Nazi espousing domestic terrorists? Here's a taste of what y'all defend:
Here's a taste of what you obviously wholeheartedly support:
White Supremacist Leaders Applaud Hamas and Violence Against Israelis
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/white-supremacist-leaders-applaud-hamas-and-violence-against-israelis
Excerpt: White supremacist leaders are openly celebrating Hamas’s attack on Israel, cheering explicit depictions of violence against Israelis and promoting expanded violence against Jews worldwide.
During his Sunday night livestream, Goyim Defense League (GDL) leader Jon Minadeo effused as he played clip after clip of violent kidnappings, assaults and murders perpetrated by Hamas terrorists in Israel.
As the gore played out onscreen, Minadeo laughed, danced, snacked and cheered, “Wow, this is awesome. This is awesome man! I’m so stoked!” and “Come on guys, it’s time to dance! Get those Jews!”
x
p.s.- This post is mocking the knee-jerk reaction of maga qanon media to some individual Andy Ngo found using the name BLMchi on twitter, who may not really be affiliated individually with anything to do with BLM as an organization, inappropriately reacting to events in Israel that so many, including myself, do not fully understand (I fully support Israel myself despite my distrust and dislike of their prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu). I reject the use of this one twitter opinion to make a blanket accusation against any and all BLM participants (black people), liberals in general or people like me who had nothing to do with BLM other than not overreacting to such short-lived, largely peaceful and defensible 2020 libertarian protests. That said, unlike you all, I didn't participate in their marches (I know Rayb went to Trump rallys and others here bragged about Trump rallies), support their various affiliated candidates, support & defend an actual insurrectionous riot, lie on behalf of their cause, vote for their cause or even donate money.
Dear 11:36 AM
Your label is not specific enough so it doesn't apply like you hope.
Many conservatives condemn the establishment D.C. Uniparty making self-serving use of very deep and wide spread corruption in Ukraine, but do not support Putin.
RINO's use both sides against the middle just like their Democrat colleagues do.
12:01 PM
Medusa speaks.
11:24 am
Isn't it something how Craig has to demonize whole blocks of people in order to hold on to his suppositions and prejudices, against basically everyone else, not them? He lumps and dumps summations of people are not only disingenuous; but, also so false and disrespectful of people in general.
Imagine being so "right" all the time and armchairing analyzing everyone else just so you can feel better about yourself and the narrative you want to prop yourself up with, no matter what extremes you must go to to do that.
He did it to all cessationists, Church of Christ, Justin Peters, BB Warfield, Grace to You Ministries and John MacArthur alone in just the past week.
x
p.s.- Craig ---I'm mocking 2:42 pm yesterday assuming they might have been talking about me. Personally, I find your passion for the Bible admirable. There is truth and it's worth debating. I'm sure the last thing Luciferians want is Scripture discussed here while noting how they largely seem to support your side of the debate. Perhaps anything that takes focus off the Gospel would be my guess. Again, we don't agree on the topic of cessationism/continuationism and I'm fine with that.
12:05 pm
I think you mean "many conspiracists" not "many conservatives"
Maga qanon has really become not only "Christians in name only"; but, also "Conservatives in Name Only" = CINO's
Not only is the Maga Qanon support for Russia troubling...but things like this that are happening right here in the US:
North Carolina Republicans Are Creating a ‘Secret Police Force’: CALL IT WHAT IT IS: "The euphemistically named “Gov Ops” is a civil liberties disaster waiting to happen."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/north-carolina-republicans-are-creating-a-secret-police-force
Excerpt: Republican state legislators In North Carolina are establishing a new investigative body that Democratic critics have aptly compared to a “secret police force.”
This new entity, formally known as the Joint Legislative Committee on Government Operations, or “Gov Ops” for short, will be chaired by Senate Leader Phil Berger (R) and House Speaker Tim Moore (R). It grants the state the authority to investigate various matters, including “possible instances of misfeasance, malfeasance, nonfeasance, mismanagement, waste, abuse, or illegal conduct.”
Gov Ops, a product of North Carolina’s most recent state budget, was established via a comprehensive bill passed in late September. Despite Democratic Gov. Roy Cooper’s refusal to sign the legislation, the Republican majority in the state legislature pushed it through just 10 days later, thanks to their veto-proof majority and the state’s laws restricting the governor’s ability to make line-item vetoes. Gov Ops is slated to take effect next week.
And there you have it.
The nasty he aims at Craig while he pretends "brotherhood".
You're a snake alright x, that one side of your mouth says you are against Hamas atrocities while you support terrorisms on our homeground by people who applaud Hamas. You want Christian acceptance of your devil heart and mouth that speaks from the pit. Double-minded much?
You're a wolf inside a tattered moldy sheepskin.
https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2023/10/11/israeli-u-n-amb-we-have-fundamental-disagreement-with-biden-on-iran-not-surprised-he-didnt-mention-iran/
Biden loves to feed the hand that wants to devour Israel. And intends great harm toward us as well.
I don't give a damn what his speech said. His actions (and non-actions) are much louder than his words.
Craig called you out for condemning whole blocks of people x.
I saw what you did at 12:15 PM.
Putting words in others mouths is just another one of your snake antics here.
I think you are as manipulative as the devil himself.
(Is that Hamas on the phone to recruit you right now?)
There is nothing wrong with caring about justice for black Americans. It's lumping and dumping to call everybody who cares about racial justice "Marxist," "terrorist" or other labels.
It's okay, because God is sovereign, and he will judge the world as he always has. In fact, ever since he completed his work on the cross, he became more directly sovereign over all the nations of the world.
But the whole time that the gentile nations of the Old Testament were being ruled by angels (because God was done with them for the time being after the tower of Babel), God still judged not only the human but the angelic rulers of gentile nations at various times. He remained sovereign but didn't gather all nations back to himself again until Pentecost.
Meanwhile since he's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow I think he still cares about justice within nations. Otherwise it would have made no sense for him to judge the angels ruling over the gentile nations because they had not ruled justly and had allowed or even encouraged oppression.
Be righteous or eventually be judged. It's always been the same. It will always be the same. Righteousness includes justice, and justice includes racial justice. The cross imputes righteousness on Christians to cover their sins, but even if they can't lose salvation from lack of righteous works, they can still lose rewards from their lack of righteous works in this life.
I wouldn't muddy the water with dragging out NAZIS just yet, ADL, considering the Gaza Strip is the world's largest (ever) open air prison camp. I would not relish the idea of sny Americans troop having to quell a prison uprising of Israel's making, (#22ADAY), but, if any American Israeli wants to go I be for that (starting with the ADL).
On a lighter note ( - : ketchup is a good substitute for salsa on an scrambled egg burrito
12:49
No Craig did not.
I didn't share the Justin Peters video.
I like Justin Peters. I didn't link to the video because I'd probably already seen it and he just repeats (and actually, I think) quotes John MacArthur's commentary on 1 Cor 14.
I also love Justin Peter's seminar "Clouds without Waters" about error within the NAR and/or the Word of Faith movement.
Nobody "condemned" anyone.
x
Craig wrote and he is exactly correct:
"You and JMac are anachronistically imposing modern hyper-charismaticism onto the text as part of your overall means by which to demonize both the 1st century Corinthian congregation and ALL continuationists throughout the centuries."
Your wide swath of condemnations are constant at this blog. No matter the topic.
Your Saul Alinsky style "discussions" demonize people without cause when simple critique (if necessary) will do.
You sow discord all the time here.
Your "brotherhood" matches extremist types, always handy with your verbal grenades.
1:52 pm
Is that your "verbal grenade"?
"Demonizing", isn't "condemning" and both are hyperbole in a discussion of 2nd tier biblical interpretations and/or principles. Neither Craig nor I can "condemn" anyone.
Truth divides. It is the liars, hypocrites, Luciferians and heretics that truthfully "sow discord" here.
Have you read Gordon Fee's and/or John MacArthur's commentary on 1st Corinthians? Do you have an opinion yourself to add to the Biblical discussion? My Church library (probably your city Library too) had many books on Tongues and gifts of the Holy Spirit.
I'm still praying for you. It's so very sad to see so many Christians remain caught up in Maga Qanon reactionary political and cultural extremism.
x
Whoa! Francis Will Bless the Coming Climate Lockdown
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/6846-holy-father-of-lockdowns-francis-will-bless-the-coming-climate-lockdown
Francis is a tool?
“Pretentious”? That’s a big word for you.
Good job.
X
"But what happens when a DN forms such an attachment with, and then devalues, hates, abuses, and even declares war on God?
"Well, that, dear reader, is what we call a “Jesuit”. . .
Diabolical Narcissism: When Princes Betray Their King
Written by Ann Barnhardt
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/fetzen-fliegen/item/2508-diabolical-narcissism-why-princes-betray-their-king
"You don't have a God living in you; You are one." Kenneth Copeland
Yikes!
Worship is pure or base as the worshiper entertains high or low thoughts about God.
It's very important to know the one, true, supreme and sovereign God before you can worship him!
“Joe Biden finances the terrorists and he allows Iran to go wild.”
https://dailycaller.com/2023/10/11/ben-shapiro-donald-trump-president-biden-israel-iran/
The Enabler-in-chief does for them what he does for Hunter.
The kickbacks for O'Biden have to be amazing.
America and Israel suffer greatly under his hand.
Crisis = Opportunity............
1:52 PM,
Craig wrote and he is exactly correct:
"You and JMac are anachronistically imposing modern hyper-charismaticism onto the text as part of your overall means by which to demonize both the 1st century Corinthian congregation and ALL continuationists throughout the centuries."
No, this is not exactly correct. X did not demonize the 1st century Corinthian congregation. He made it clear he thought that these first century Christians laid the foundation.
You and Craig use X as a proxy to demonize all Christians who hold to a selective cessationism position, and that means most Protestants since the Reformation.
You are taking this vendetta against X too far. The emotional attacks upon X make shrapnel fly at other people at times.
We ALL need some humility. The Bible is VERY rich in details that nobody has 100% noticed. We ALL need to be aware that we could be selective with it, not on purpose, but due to our finiteness.
We should ALL be willing to both teach and be taught by one another as we grow in our knowledge of the Bible.
So you and Craig think that X is unwilling to be taught, that he is the only iron, and everybody needs to be sharpened by him.
My response is, so what's new? Doesn't that describe over half the people you know? Please lighten up.
As an example of the rich details in the Bible that are easy to overlook, think about this, because it could clear up confusion about Israel.
1 Peter 1:1 (NASB) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
1 Peter 2:9-10 (NASB) But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
When Peter writes, "To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," he is writing to the house of Israel, who were "aliens" - they weren't living in the land of their birth. If you look at a map, you will see that the areas of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia were the very area that the Old Testament tells us that the house of Israel was taken to in the Assyrian captivity. Now they are identified as "Gentiles." Peter is writing to these Gentiles, who have become Christians, and he calls them a chosen (race) generation. He says to them, "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." This is a fulfillment of the promises that God made to the house of Israel through Hosea (Hosea 1:9-11).
PS, we still can't point a finger, as Americans. at Israelis, without four fingers pointing back at us.
What was an apostle? And what does it have to do with the third temple being rebuilt in Israel?
What else do we overlook in the very rich details of the Bible?
Read Galatians to follow what Paul is saying. In part he's saying that his authority as an apostle came directly from Jesus Christ.
In Galatians, the opponents of the Apostle Paul tried to discredit his message by denying his authority as an apostle. They said he had his gospel and apostleship secondhand, and the only real authorities are the Jerusalem apostles. Paul established by historical witnesses that his gospel and authority did not come from a mere man but came from a revelation of Jesus Christ.
And, he pointed out, not only that, but Paul's theology and the theology of the other apostles was unfied.
But a Jewish group of Christians were saying it's not enough to trust Christ for righteousness. Faith had to be supplemented by "works of the law." These Jewish converts wanted to impose circumcision, dietary restrictions, the keeping of feasts and holy days. They implied these works of the law could contribute toward the transaction of justification.
In the Mishnah, the codification in the second century A.D. of Jewish customs and traditions, we find this kind of thought about the Holy Spirit: "Rabbi Phineas Ben Jair says, `Heedfulness leads to cleanliness, and cleanliness leads to purity, and purity leads to separatism, and separatism leads to holiness, and holiness leads to humility, and humility leads to
shunning of sin, and shunning of sin leads to saintliness, and saintliness leads to the Holy Spirit.' "
But in the experience of the Galatian Christians, the demonstration of the Spirit's presence came before they were even taught the law or tried to live by its requirements.
If the lost sheep of the house of Israel 2000 years ago were not supposed to return to the law, why do we hope for the third temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem? The Apostle Paul's inspired words clearly tell us that rebuilding the third temple and reinstating animal sacrifices within it it would be the ultimate in vain foolishness.
Why? If the Jews needed this, why were the first Christian converts Jewish? If regathered Israelites needed it, why were the regathered children of the Assyrian captive ten northern tribes, told NOT to return to the Mosaic law?
What would Paul say if he could write a letter to Christians today who expect the third temple to be rebuilt and think Jesus actually wants this? Would he ask, "Who has bewitched you?"
In his commentary on Galatians, Dr. J. Vernon McGee writes: "In a sense I believe this epistle has been the backbone and background for every great spiritual movement and revival that has taken place in the past nineteen hundred years. And, my friend, it will be the background for other revivals. I would like to see the Spirit of God move in our land today. I would like to hear the Epistle to the Galatians declared to America. I believe it would revolutionize lives."
Galatians had a profound impact upon the Reformer, Martin Luther. He spoke of the formal principle of the Reformation, which was the doctrine of justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. It is this doctrine that stands clearly throughout the pages of this epistle. Luther wrote: "If this doctrine be lost, then is also the doctrine of truth, life, and salvation, also lost and gone. If this doctrine flourish, then all good things flourish; religion, the true service of God, the glory of God, the right knowledge of all things which are necessary for a Christian man to know." He also adds:"This doctrine can never be taught, urged, and repeated enough."
Luther's writings brought the truth of salvation by faith alone to John Wesley's heart in a meeting at Aldersgate Street in London on May 24, 1738. It was Wesley whom God used in such a remarkable way to spearhead revival in the British Isles, leading eventually to the founding of the Methodist Church. And that revival positively affected the entire English-speaking world.
To study Galatians is to study one of the biggest inspirations for historical revivals.
Isn't it amazing that just one book, Galatians, speaks to the topics of and unites together:
1) gifts of the Holy Spirit (historical revivals),
2) the one time laying of the foundation of the church (the Apostles with no Catholic doctrine of Apostolic succession in the form of Popes),
3) relevance today for the foolish and dangerous hope found within North American Evangelical Christian culture that the third temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem
Galatians speaks against the NAR, against the Roman Catholic church, and against Dispensationalism all at the same time.
Pay close attention to every detail in it, because the Apostle Paul spoke already to so many issues that are debated and misunderstood in our time.
It's been a garbage, apostate, ecumenical publication for decades; so this should come as no surprise:
Report: Christianity Today's magazine staff made significant campaign donations from 2015 to 2022 and EVERY dollar went to Democrats!
Well, I can't say I'm totally shocked.
Christianity Today, founded by Billy Graham and one of the largest Christian publications in the world, has been trending leftward for quite some time, but these new revelations are eye-opening.
Meg Basham over at the Daily Wire is reporting that between 2015 and 2022 the staff at Christianity Today have not shied away from throwing their money into politics. But every single dollar went to only one side.
Between 2015 and 2022, nine Christianity Today employees made 73 political donations. All of them went to Democrats. This tally includes President and CEO Timothy Dalrymple, who gave $300 in two separate payments to failed Georgia Senate candidate Sarah Riggs Amico.
73 separate political donations and every single dollar went to the party of abortion, race Marxism, and the LGBT mob.
This from the "flagship magazine" of evangelical Christianity.
https://notthebee.com/article/bombshell-christianity-todays-magazine-staff-made-significant-campaign-donations-from-2015-to-2022-and-every-dollar-went-to-democrats
"Galatians speaks against the NAR, against the Roman Catholic church, and against Dispensationalism all at the same time."
Galatians also specifically states who the seed of Abraham really is, and it isn't physical Israel.
10:45 AM,
Abraham was shown the stars in the sky and told his seed would be like the stars in the sky. If it didn't mean that he understood his promise to mean that he would have physical seeds numbering as many as the stars in the sky, what else could it have meant, and why was he said by Paul to understand it meant one seed and why was he said by Paul to have faith in a better promised land?
The Old Testament was cryptic so that the fallen angels would not know what it really meant. They needed to be baited into getting Jesus Christ crucified as a payment for our sin debt.
But how to resolve the seeming contradiction? Abraham could have looked at the constellations in the sky, which God used to tell a story first, as the Creator who put the constellations there. The constellations do tell a story about a virgin birth.
This could be the same way the three wise men, from where Daniel had been taken captive generations ago, knew about the birth of Jesus. They obviously looked at stars, so it's not a stretch at all.
10:45 AM,
Why was Abraham so willing to sacrifice his son Isaac? The only sense it makes is that he thought Isaac would be resurrected to become the seed that had been promised, the Messiah. Otherwise why God's approval? Why wouldn't God have disapproved of murder? Do you see how the clues are hidden in a cryptic way to point to Abraham knowing more than he seemed to know on the surface? Otherwise it makes no sense at all!
Dear "X",
It is time to lighten up.
Your assumptions about people are out of hand.
I feel sorry for you.
Goodness knows there is a much better way to make your message known.
Instead of edifying the body of Jesus, you, too many times, bring grief to it by your presentations.
It would be good to hear what you have to say minus the static you post.
I hope you will understand what I am trying to say to you.
Genesis 15:5
King James Version
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Biblical Astronomy – The Gospel In The Stars
https://thescripturalcalendar.com/biblical-astronomy-the-gospel-in-the-stars/
Genesis 1:14
King James Version
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Historian says Trump has been 're-educating' his followers to embrace violence and that Matt Gaetz is now doing the same
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gaetz-reeducating-fans-to-embrace-violence-historian-january-6-2023-10
'Taking pages from the Hitler Nazi playbook': Trump rhetoric alarms experts
https://www.rawstory.com/trump-hitler-2665902270/
For your edification ( - : The Rocky Road To Devotion
https://youtu.be/u7pLiaXIZ5g?si=MyLHLnj32eu9NBxq
PS: why is the sign of Jonah turned on it's head?
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/cb/86/af/cb86afe55efbbc2b393cc5708c0b0135.jpg
Next. . .?
Invade Taiwan? Encounter A ‘Hellscape’
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/missile-defense-weapons/invade-taiwan-encounter-hellscape
What does it mean that katargeo is the verb used for prophecy and knowledge, but pauo is the verb used for tongues? Katargeo is passive. Prophecy shall be done away. Knowledge shall be done away. It will be done away by another agent, the coming of the perfect. When it says that tongues will cease, pauo, this isn't passive. It is the middle voice, which implies that tongues could cease in and of themselves. Prophecy and knowledge will be stopped, but tongues could stop themselves?
Is it possible to infer that before God stopped/stops the gifts of prophecy and knowledge, the gift of tongues could die out in and of itself?
The book of Acts has no reference to tongues after 19:6. Tongues are mentioned only in the earlier NT books. Tongues are never mentioned again in the NT after this warning in 1 Corinthians 13:8.
What does the perfect mean in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10?
The completion of the Bible? The rapture of the church? The maturity of the church? The Second Coming? The New Heavens and New Earth of Revelation? All of the above?
"The perfect" is the Greek word teleion. In its eight occurrences in Paul's epistles, six are translated "mature." The phrase "that which is perfect" is often used in the Greek language to speak of purpose or a goal. In this context, it is the goal of God for the church. What was God's goal for the church?
This speaks of the goal:
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters (Romans 8:29 NASB).
This speaks of the maturing of the church:
And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as [a]pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [b]saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [c]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [d]which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 [e]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness [f]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [g]speaking the truth in love, [h]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [i]by what every joint supplies, according to the [j]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16 NASB)
Magical Mystery Church, new video 10/12/2023
<bTHE HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW - by Constance Cumbey - chapter 13</b
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kSsp0iNBX8
Breaking News:
X says Tehran should turn Tel Aviv into 'ashes'.
Was this said of and to all Jews for all time? Why or why not? I think not, and I'll say why in the next comment.
John 8:38-44
New American Standard Bible
38 I speak of the things which I have seen [a]with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come [b]on My own, but [c]He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand [d]what I am saying? It is because you cannot listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells [e]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of [f]lies.
Galatians 3:6-7
New American Standard Bible
6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Exactly what does this mean, though? Well, in Genesis 18, Abraham and Sarah were home one evening, when some angels showed up with the incarnate God. This was Yahweh in his physical presence. It was a theophany. Abraham responded with hospitality. They had dinner and fellowshipped together.
In contrast, not all of the Jews of Jerusalem showed hospitality to Jesus. Like Abraham, they met the incarnate God. Unlike Abraham, they showed him no hospitality or fellowship. They did not listen to him or believe him.
Have Jews of today met the incarnate God like the Jews of the 1st Century AD Jerusalem?
Jesus could literally say to the Jews of his day that they didn't treat him the way Abraham treated him! The same can't be said of the Jews of today.
There is one more meaning, because idol worship is compared to adultery. So children of Israel who engaged in idol worship could be called the children of fornication. This would be why they could be called the children of the devil as well as being called by Paul the children of the slave woman (Hagar) not the free woman (Sarah).
A third meaning of lying like their father the devil could be that when the Jews (of his time and place) said that we are not the children of fornication, they were insinuating that Mary had been unfaithful to Joseph and that Jesus was not truly the Son of God.
If this is the meaning, then anybody who spreads any lies about Jesus or engages in idolatry could be called children of the devil every bit as much as the unbelieving Jews of Jersualem.
But what is unique about both the Jews of Jerusalem and Abraham is that they met the incarnate God in person. Because of this it's just not fair and it's twisted out of context to apply this scripture of John to all Jews for all time.
https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1712555237767340523
Stunning video produced by Hamas.
They are openly mocking the West.
They used a $100 million water pipeline project paid for by the EU, and turned the pipe into Missiles to launch at Israel.
posted by Lt Col Lerner
I wonder if this has any bearing on the meaning of "the perfect" (teleion, usually translated "mature")?
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18 NASB)
Glory to glory means Old Covenant to New Covenant, just as "grace upon grace" in John means the New Covenant replacing the Old Covenant.
In John, "grace upon grace" reads, in the Greek, charin anti charitos. Some interpreters and translators believe that John was saying grace comes in waves, washing believers with successive blessings. The NIV says, "one blessing after another" effectively expresses this view, and the NASB says, "grace upon grace" implies it.
But another way of interpreting what it means is that the Greek preposition anti means "instead of" here, as it often does elsewhere. Here anti seems to mean that one thing is replaced by another or put in the place of another. Jewish sources regarded the Law as a gift from God.
Two Nice Jewish Boys (2NJB)
https://youtu.be/jQG2qemXLR8?si=ulgxt75iepgF_KZj
Sitting in the car at the Laundromat today we noticed some guy in the parking lot across the street kneeling down by his car. When he got up he was holding a small rug. Keep situational awareness tomorrow.
This is what John said about the antichrists of his time. It seems quite likely that it didn't have had much to do with politics. It seems quite likely it was all about the church and shepherding immature Christians so that they would not be led astray by false teachers who arose within the church.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19 ESV
Who is the us here? And what does it mean that "they went out from us?" Does it mean they left the church? If they had left the church, would John have been concerned about exposure to them as false teachers? Wouldn't it mean the problem was solved if the antichrists left the church?
Could us be a reference to the apostolic circle in the church at Jerusalem? John, although not an apostle, was part of the Jerusalem church, and he would have been considered part of the apostolic circle.
The problem might have been that the false teachers went out from the apostolic circle with an aura of authority, claiming their false teachings were endorsed by the apostles.
If this was the type of problem John was writing about, it would be just like the type of problem that Paul was writing about in Acts.
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and FROM AMONG YOUR OWN SELVES WILL ARISE MEN SPEAKING TWISTED THINGS, to draw away the disciples after them. Acts 20:28-30 ESV
The wording is similar to another scripture in Acts.
Since we have heard that some persons HAVE GONE OUT FROM US and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, Acts 15:24 ESV
"For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us." This is a second class conditional sentence which is called contrary to fact. It should be translated, "If they had belonged to us, which they did not, then they would have stayed with us, which they did not."
This statement by John is frequently taken to mean that these antichrists were never really Christians. But the word continued here is the characteristically Johannine verb meno, which is used to express the close, ongoing personal relationship among genuine members of the Christian community. John may have been saying that if they had been of us, they would have remained in fellowship with us, but their going out with false teachings demonstrated that they were not in fellowship with us.
It's clear that the antichrists John was talking about could not have been referring to outwardly Christ rejecting Jews, because these antichrists were members of the church.
Instead, they were Christ rejecting in a doctrinal way. I dare say we're all familiar with the doctrinal way in which they were Christ rejecting. They were substituting a false idea of Jesus for people to place their hopes in. Spiritually people were already being led astray by an antichrist (even if there wasn't a human antichrist yet for people to be going out into the desert to follow after a false pretender to being the second coming of Jesus Christ).
Anon 8:26 AM,
I'm curious: Are you sourcing from a commentary or are these your words and extrapolations?
First came the Letters then came the Books, and all was well and good. . .until, some clever German invented the printing press and men decide to write their own books ) - :
PS: and we have the internet and everyone a genius
PSS: well almost everyone ( - :
I wrote this on my blog quite a while ago:
It has been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, however to use anyone else’s work and pass it off as your own, without crediting the original source, is a form of thievery known as plagiarism.
"You and Craig use X as a proxy to demonize all Christians who hold to a selective cessationism position, and that means most Protestants since the Reformation."
8:32 AM
You are either not reading closely to see that that is not the rub here, or your reading comprehension needs a checkup. Either way, I don't care one wit what you post about it or not.
Clarifying for you and speaking for myself (but believe Craig has made understood too) that there can be room for differences here on what has currently been debated without it being some kind of deal breaker between Christians. But----it is X who on one hand terms things to purposefully go scorched earth on topics so he can slam others with whom he differs, or another antic is his blatant manipulations of what others actually say and meant to create discord. He is ace at it. Then he tongue-in-cheek adds some fake disclaimer statement about what he just over-the-top said. It isn't hard to unpack his pretend "love" for brother Craig really just being another of his backhanded smears.
A most un-Christian and un-neighborly approach to discussion and his repeated M.O. (regardless of the subject).
Someone said X is impossible to have discussion with and that person is correct.
He deserves his antics noted, referenced, thrown back in his face, like it or don't.
I don't think X is male. sounds more like female most of the time.
https://twitter.com/gopoversight/status/1712199807014453255
"We have discovered new information about the number of White House employees involved in President Biden’s mishandling of classified documents.
President Biden’s attorney stated that the discovery of classified documents at Penn Biden Center occurred on November 2, 2022.
Our Committee has developed evidence showing the timeline of relevant events began in 2021 and involved at least five White House employees.
You might be right 12:16 PM since x's arguments sound like they're from a hormonal scorned woman conducting covert or open guerilla warfare on every front.
And claims there's a wife..
One has to wonder if Isaiah 17:1 about Damascus and warring as described in Psalm 83, the neighbors surrounding Israel, are soon to happen.
I don't exactly know a timeline for those but seems plausible enough.
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://thefederalist.com/2023/10/12/court-no-evidence-georgias-election-integrity-law-discriminates-against-black-voters/
Attention X, Linda, Constance:
LGBT Groups Endorse Biden’s Reelection, Citing Pro-Trans Presidency
LGBT organizations are coalescing to endorse President Joe Biden’s reelection campaign.
Major LGBT groups the Human Rights Campaign, the National Center for Transgender Equality, and the Equality PAC announced their joint endorsement of Biden for president in 2024 on Tuesday, marking the first time the groups agreed on a presidential candidate.
The three groups praised the Biden administration’s promotion of LGBT ideology and condemned largely Republican-led efforts to protect children, with HRC President Kelley Robinson saying, “LGBTQ+ Americans are living in a state of emergency and the leadership of the Biden-Harris administration is needed now more than ever.”
https://www.dailysignal.com/2023/10/12/lgbt-groups-endorse-bidens-reelection-citing-pro-trans-presidency/
The Epoch Times is a far-right international multi-language newspaper and media company affiliated with the Falun Gong new religious movement. The newspaper, based in New York City, is part of the Epoch Media Group, which also operates New Tang Dynasty Television.
Religious group amasses fortune by feeding right-wingers with conspiracies: report
Matthew Chapman
https://www.rawstory.com/epoch-times-2665942205/
9 Things You Should Know About Falun Gong and ‘The Epoch Times'
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/9-things-falun-gong/
X @ 1:58 PM,
Thanks for letting us all know.
The Gospel Coalition (TGC) is a Left wing, Woke, wrongly-ecumenical source with myriad issues, including at times promoting a new age worldview. A recent piece extolling the spiritual virtues of a Taylor Swift concert was rather swiftly taken down. But not before The Wayback Machine could take a snapshot:
The Gospel Coalition and Taylor Swift
I commented on the above blog:
I caught a new agey vibe in the Swift piece. This led me to check out the church itself, in which I found a sermon by John Dickson. I’d never heard of Dickson, but knowing a bit about Kabbalah (and its alternate spellings and some of its various permutations) and its use of the "tree of life" motif, a well as the Hellenistic use of the word logos, I found this 'sermon' discomforting.
Dickson, like a few I'd read, takes the notion of wisdom in Proverbs 8 too far. It’s intended as a poetic personification, not a personalization of any one person. In other words, to read this to mean the text is speaking of Jesus in some sort of literal sense is to go too far. He does this when he references Proverbs 8:22–32. To claim The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old…formed long ago to mean that God is speaking of Jesus is to situate Jesus-as-logos as being ‘created’ in some sort of netherworld—neither eternal nor temporal.
So much of modern Christianity is either worldly or other-worldly new agey.
(In fairness, there are some good portions of TGC, including the section Carson Center, with pieces by D. A. Carson.)
2:06 PM You're welcome, Craig. FYI, comment wasn't posted by X.
Anon 12:00 PM,
I agree with your post, but especially this last bit:
He [X] deserves his antics noted, referenced, thrown back in his face.
I'm glad someone understands why I sometimes press him on topics--to expose his methodology.
Craig @ 2:30 PM
That's news to me about TGC. It's hard to keep up with the great falling away in modern Christianity.
X @ 2:15 you wrote:
"Demonizing", isn't "condemning" and both are hyperbole in a discussion of 2nd tier biblical interpretations and/or principles. Neither Craig nor I can "condemn" anyone.
This was in reference to my statement (and another’s response to it): You and JMac are anachronistically imposing modern hyper-charismaticism onto the text as part of your overall means by which to demonize both the 1st century Corinthian congregation and ALL continuationists throughout the centuries.
I was not being hyperbolic. The word “demonize” can hardly be taken literally in my context—just look up the definition. That’s the normal colloquial use.
Cessationistic arguments—though I think they all fail when placed into the larger context of Scripture as a whole—typically do not go to the lengths JMac goes. His intent, in accordance with his hyper-dogmatic bent, is to so ‘prove’ his pet position(s) so as to be ‘impervious’ to challenge. But he does so at the expense of proper syntax, context, and an exaggeration of word-study methods, while over-stating and adopting positions on ambiguous forms.
You mentioned this is a 2nd-tier issue. Well, as a wrote earlier:
I might agree with you that this a second-tier issue, but when third-rate “exegesis”, i.e., eisegesis, is used to support the Cessationist side, then such distortions of Scripture elevate it to a first-tier issue. Handling God’s Word is paramount to properly instructing on the Christian life. To abuse Scripture to support a doctrine is reprehensible.
Two examples suffice: 1) JMac’s position that the use theos, God (in the dative form), in 1Cor 14:2 without the Greek article (~ = “the”) means “a god” rather than God; 2) JMac’s plucking “tongues” from the middle of “prophecy” and “knowledge” in 13:8, even though all three are in syntactic parallel—it matters NOT that there is a different verb accompanying “tongues”, for they are ALL in the future tense-form with no other delimiting factors, meaning one cannot arbitrarily declare one should stop before another.
And, if Anon 1:34 PM’s [X’s?] comment is sourced from JMac, this FURTHER goes to my point:
It [ pauo (ED: actually pauō, with the final letter an English transliteration of the Greek omega, not omicron)] is the middle voice, which implies that tongues could cease in and of themselves. Prophecy and knowledge will be stopped, but tongues could stop themselves? Is it possible to infer that before God stopped/stops the gifts of prophecy and knowledge, the gift of tongues could die out in and of itself?
This may or may not be a true middle voice; it could be passive in force. All the English translations I’ve found render it like a passive. Whatever the case, to take this (middle-as-reflexive) as some sort of further possible ‘proof’ to the ‘case’ that tongues will cease before the others is to go FAR outside interpretive norms.
12:16 pm said: "I don't think X is male. sounds more like female most of the time."
That's not an insult. I like women. Women are some of my favorite people. I actually prefer women doctors and dentists and our senior accountant/director is a woman too.
x
p.s. - my first post today. Glad to see I was so missed.
That old s/he chestnut is pretty cliche
X 3:39 PM,
God doesn't hate women, either. I recall something about one of his commandments saying to honor your father and mother.
Craig 3:33 PM,
John MacArthur was not my source. I have been learning from a pastor whose name I will keep private.
I will take into consideration your comment about the Greek word pauo.
Craig 8:57 AM,
I was paraphrasing what I learned from a pastor whose name I will keep private. Please feel free to disagree if you take issue with something I said.
Craig...
@3:11 pm - Your seeming contempt and disrespect for a brother is noted; but, good luck with that (see below)
@3:33 pm - I did not post the words you were responding to. That said, refering to the content....
My defender was correct. Describing the historical context of the newly found Corinthian church that Paul so loved to the extent that he was so willing to correct them to such an extent by actually prophesying scripture in the form an early corrective Epistle to the church is not calling them "wicked" anymore that Paul was tryig to correct them of "wicked" practices and customs that had, apparently, spilled over into such early church. Besides....they were living in the apostolic age so they were doing nothing wrong/disorderly/incorrectly trying, though stumbling, to practice the gifts of that time prior to them having ceased. Unlike continuationists today, they had no way to know what they were doing was wrong/incorrect/disorderly, in that time, until and after Paul addressed it.
Further, I COULD just as easily throw your "antics" back in your face and declare Gordon Fee's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 "third rate" exegesis/eisegesis too. His Pentecostal bias certainly shines throughout various quotes I've read by him here and elsewhere on the 1st Corinthians. I THINK he may have even advocated that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 should be plucked out of the 14 Chapter largely, it would seem, because it hampered his "ordination of women" arguments. That's some pretty creative "abuse of scripture".
BUT ....I won't do that. For that could be unloving.
For us to hate those who are in error, or talk of them with contempt or wish them ill, or do them wrong, is not according to the Spririt of Christ. You cannot cast out Satan by Satan, nor correct error by violence, nor overcome hate by hate. The conquering weapon of the Christian is love.
-Charles Spurgeon
x
x isn't missed, oh but he flatters himself, what's new?
He's missed like a toothache.
We can talk behind his back exactly what we think and say to his face.
So you can quit your whining x, you know you love the attention.
He could be gone for years and will still be regarded and remembered as the most arrogant fake commenter of the blog. There's not a neighborly bone in his body.
He's this blog's turd in a punchbowl..
"The conquering weapon of the Christian is love. "
So dude what day will you commence?
When will you take that to heart and practice that yourself?
We're waiting.
Tick, tick, tick...
12:00 pm
Is that your best example of a Christian and neighborly approach to discussion?
What is YOUR M.O.?
Is it flawless?
I get the feeling from both you AND Craig that my merely suggesting the Cessassationism movie to Craig, which is what initiated this whole conversation/discussion and debate, was somehow seen as a backhanded attack on Craig? How??? I'd never seen the movie, just a trailer. I merely suggested it as something Craig, who blogs about such things, might be interested in it as a continuationists with an interest in the subject matter. I wasn't catty or smug about it. It wasn't an "antic". It's just a movie.
I'm strongly considering putting you (trolling anonymous) back in time out.
x
4:32 pm
Since the day I arrived here.
Admittedly, not flawlessly.
I am human and I do error and sin.
x
Anon 4:03 and 4:10 (the same, I presume?):
I appreciate the willingness to listen to another voice which may challenge the one you are engaging with. That's the kind of teachable-ness we should all aspire to. And I'm speaking to myself as well!
Regarding the middle voice, the best information I found is in a book I'd suspect the average pastor would not have in his personal library: Stanley Porter's Idioms of the Greek New Testament (2nd ed. [Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1996]). On page 67 is a helpful explanation (bracketed comment and bold added):
"Grammarians are undecided how exactly to characterize the Greek middle voice, but most are agreed that a reflexive middle ('he washed himself'), in which the agent (subject) and recipient (object) of the action are the same [ED: whether in transitive or intransitive contexts], is not the predominant use...A better and more comprehensive description is that the Greek middle voice expresses more direct participation, specific involvement, or even some form of benefit of the subject doing the action. Thus, it could be reflexive in some contexts (these are probably best confined to intransitive uses), or it could simply draw attention to the subject, even if the subject is not the only participant (i.e. where an object is involved)."
Here’s how I would render 1Cor 13:8: Love never falls [away], even if prophecies shall be nullified, even if tongues shall cease, even if [words of] knowledge shall be nullified.
I suspect the middle voice—assuming it’s a true middle—has more to do with the noun (tongues) associated with it than anything else. By that I mean both “prophecies” and “(words of) knowledge” (cf. 1Cor 12:8) are communicated via the Spirit non-verbally to the recipient, after which the recipient speaks these to the appropriate audience; whereas, “tongues” come verbally through and to the recipient him/herself who speaks forth directly. That is, if “tongues” is a true middle, in which the verb is acting transitively, with tongues as both subject and object, I think it’s because of the very nature of tongues.
Now, as for the syntax, note that I purposefully repeated “even if” in my translation. That’s how it is in the Greek. So, each element consists of subordinating conjunction [eite]-noun-verb and all are in parallel. Therefore, to take one element out from the others is to take it out of the context in which it is situated.
My apologies, X. I didn't mean to offend. I really did think you are probably female. The previous poster called you he. It was stupid of me to comment. Anons have the freedom to be whatever they want to be.
X,
You wrote: My defender was correct. Describing the historical context of the newly found Corinthian church that Paul so loved to the extent that he was so willing to correct them to such an extent by actually prophesying scripture in the form an early corrective Epistle to the church is not calling them "wicked" anymore that Paul was tryig to correct them of "wicked" practices and customs that had, apparently, spilled over into such early church.
And your defender added this: X did not demonize the 1st century Corinthian congregation. He made it clear he thought that these first century Christians laid the foundation.
But you quoted JMac who described the Corinthian congregation as worldly to the extent that their tongues was all gibberish. Plus, your words regarding laying the foundation had to do with the apostles and prophets (cf. Eph 2:20). Thus, it wasn't the Corinthian congregation that 'laid the foundation'.
X,
You wrote: Further, I COULD just as easily throw your "antics" back in your face and declare Gordon Fee's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14 "third rate" exegesis/eisegesis too. His Pentecostal bias certainly shines throughout various quotes I've read by him here and elsewhere on the 1st Corinthians. I THINK he may have even advocated that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 should be plucked out of the 14 Chapter largely, it would seem, because it hampered his "ordination of women" arguments. That's some pretty creative "abuse of scripture".
It looks like you are confused as to the issue you bring up. It's a text critical issue, and Fee is an acknowledge first-rate textual critic. And Fee adduces lots of evidence to support his position. Cf. Philip Comfort's New Testament Text and Translation Commentary:
"...The inclusion of 14:34-35 creates a number of exegetical concerns, the chief of which pertains to the issue of women's verbal participation in church meetings. If Paul prohibited women from speaking in church meetings, why would he have indicated in 11:5 and 11:13 that women who pray and prophesy must do so with their heads covered...why would Paul later censure their speech?" (p 519).
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN.
Do you support women being absolutely silent in church?
If you have some specific objections to Fee's exegesis/interpretation, let's hear it.
X @ 4:49 PM,
Let's put this in proper context. One can just put "cessation" in Ctrl-f function to see how this discussion evolved beginning here.
You posted the link, I responded. Sometime after that your antics began. To be fair though, not all your comments were laden with your antics. But too many were. And here we are. Again.
Flawless?
Of course not.
Your "discourse" here (prior to the movie trailer) is what I reference, and not new to you to respond with (what RoM noted also for the whole blog to see)--antics. You straw-man and manipulate our words to turn conversation on it's ear, not really to understand or at least come to terms with differences. Disagree or agree, who cares, but be decent about it-or-is that above your pay grade?
I just know it's uncalled for behavior on your part.
So I play along.
And toss that crap right back into your lap. So does Craig, but nicely, while I will play hard ball because I think you are beyond ridiculous.
Were you a bully at recess? Because you act like that here with the taunts, mocks, and smears (teaching eh?) while you consider yourself above others who are your equal. Got no use for your lack of common consideration of other people.
Grow the hell up will ya?
"Anons have the freedom to be whatever they want to be."
lol
4:53 PM
You and the "disclaimers" again--then pick up where you left off.
It's called, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
That love thing ain't happening with you.
You quoted it, you prove it.
I'm waiting...
X is anon.
LOL
Craig 4:53 PM,
I didn't write the comment above that somebody addressed to 4:53 PM.
I appreciate the explanation of the Greek and the decent tenor of your discussion.
"I am human and I do error and sin.
x"
Ok Captain Obvious.
But must you parade yourself and spread your ill-will here ad nauseam?
Besides, you didn't go far enough with your statement above if it is meant to be sincere.
Shouldn't you be apologizing to people for acting out as a superior self?
Hmm, this article showed up in a Miami paper and in a San Francisco paper today. Interesting timing.
https://theconversation.com/from-ancient-jewish-texts-to-androids-to-ai-a-just-right-sequence-of-numbers-or-letters-turns-matter-into-meaning-207895
PS: Kabbalah crazy talk won't help, Israel (IMHO) - :
8:00 PM
x has a habit of painting himself into the corner but at least he's not a whitewashed sepulchre, thank God
recessed bully brings back a lot of memories no wonder I can't get enough of this place.
Lol
Anon 6:06 PM,
It’s a bit confusing because there are two comments @ 4:53PM—mine and X’s.
Let me add something else. I’m surprised I’d forgotten to check D. A. Carson’s Exegetical Fallacies (2nd ed.). The title can be off-putting, but we all fall prey at times to various fallacies—the author even admits his own. And this is a work that I’d think would be not unusual for a pastor to have in his own library.
In the book, Carson addresses not only the middle voice generally, but particularly in 1Cor 13:8 (bold added):
“The most common fallacy in connection with the middle voice is the supposition that virtually everywhere it occurs it is either reflexive or suggests that the subject acts of itself…this fallacy…is usually introduced in order to shore up some favored doctrine.
“In particular, several authors have strenuously argued that the middle verb pausontai in 1 Corinthians 13:8 is exegetically highly significant…the middle (it is argued) suggests that tongues will cease by themselves, because of something intrinsic to their very nature. This interpretation of the middle is then sometimes linked with the view that tongues played a useful role in the church until the canon was complete (some take to teleion in verse 10 to refer to the canon); but from that point on they are intrinsically obsolete and cease…
“Whatever the merits of this exegesis…(and they are few), it is certainly wrong to rest so much on the middle verb pausontai. For a start, the middle voice has a wide range of applications…each middle voice must be examined in its own right.
“When we examine the use of the verb pauō in the New Testament, we discover that it regularly appears in middle form. In the active voice, its lexical meaning is ‘to stop, to cause to stop, to relieve’; in the middle, either ‘to stop oneself’ (reflexive usage), or ‘to cease’ (i.e., it becomes equivalent to a deponent meaning with intransitive force). It never unambiguously bears the meaning ‘to cease of itself’ (i.e., because of something intrinsic in the nature of the subject); and several passages rule out such overtones as the automatic semantic force of the middle form of this verb …” (pp 75–77).
My interpretation above does not rest on some intrinsic nature of the subject in the manner Carson describes—in other words, it doesn’t set a telic (end) limit by itself (or by some external force, such as the closing of the canon, end of the apostolic age or even some unknown thing). It’s just that when tongues DO cease (whenever that would be), they no longer manifest THROUGH the individual. Thus, it’s not exactly reflexive (tongues still themselves), but more like ‘tongues cease “tonguing” through the person’.
I don’t know the merits of such an interpretation, but I’d like someone more qualified than me to weigh in on it. (Maybe I’ll query some prof?)
However we are to interpret this, it cannot be construed as having more exegetical weight than the other two elements in the sentence (1Cor 13:8).
Craig at 5:24pm
Of course it has/had to do with feminism and, ultimately the ordination of women.
Submitting to Feminism
https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B150219/evangelical-syncretism-submitting-to-feminism
Partial Excerpt: It is no coincidence that the rise of feminism in the twentieth century paralleled an unprecedented push for female clergy in Western churches. With the shifting views and priorities of the culture, the timeless biblical truths of male headship and church leadership were suddenly under attack.
Sadly, many churches and denominations have looked for ways to accommodate feminism. Some eagerly leapt aboard the egalitarian bandwagon. Others were slower to cave in to cultural pressure but eventually waved the white flag of surrender. The legion of female pastors filling pulpits today is the legacy of the evangelical syncretists who were willing to marry feminist ideology to Scripture.
That capitulation stands in opposition to the clear teaching of Scripture: that wives should submit to their husbands as unto Christ, while their husbands are to love them as Christ loved the church (Ephesians 5:22–33) and that women are prohibited from teaching men in Christ’s church (1 Timothy 2:12–14). Both of those passages, read in their context, have clear universal application—the latter tying its basis back to God’s original design in creation and the former to God’s design in salvation. In other words, biblical manhood and womanhood is a reflection of creation and salvation. And there is no biblical precedent to overturn God’s design.
In reality, no honest exegete of Scripture can come to any other conclusion. It is difficult to think that anyone could lock himself in a room with a Bible and arrive at some other interpretation of the God-ordained roles of men and women. In that sense, egalitarianism is one of the most obvious examples of the culture’s corrupting influence on the church.
And yet there seems to be no limit to the hermeneutical gymnastics some scholars are willing to perform in order to make Scripture say what they want. Here are just two examples.
…Keener example…
…Outright Rejection: Gordon Fee is likewise a widely respected New Testament scholar among evangelicals and has written many truly helpful books and commentaries. But even he is determined to drive the square peg of feminism into the round hole of Scripture’s clear teaching. When Fee’s award-winning commentary on 1 Corinthians discusses Paul’s insistence for women to remain silent in the church meetings (1 Corinthians 14:34–35), he brushes it aside by trying to argue that Paul never actually wrote it: “Although these two verses are found in all known manuscripts, either here or at the end of the chapter, the two text-critical criteria of transcriptional and intrinsic probability combine to cast considerable doubt on their authenticity. ”
Fee cannot imagine Paul making such a statement and insists that another writer must have inserted it into the text at a later date. His scholarly language hides an unscholarly and dishonest approach to the text. While it is true that scholars debate the authenticity of the text, it is also true that there is an overwhelming consensus that they belong in Scripture. Fee seems to take advantage of the debate for the convenience of his theology. As another scholar writes, “Few [scholars] place the weight that Fee does on a textual variant.” [3]
Frankly, that’s a dangerous precedent to set when dealing with passages of Scripture that confront or contend with popular opinion and cultural norms….
Interesting??? My opinion is irrelevant to Scripture.
X
X,
Wow, that's quite a leap. Or do you have some sort of direct link between Fee and the ordination of women? Do you have any evidence that Fee supports the ordination of women?
Whatever the case, how do you (and gty) reconcile 1 Cor 11:5 and 11:13 with 14:34-35 as it stands? In other words, why would Paul provide instructions on the conditions for women speaking and prophesying in church (11:5, 13) when he would later declare women should be silent (14:34-35)?
X,
I see the article takes a teenie tiny portion of Thistleton's commentary to cast Fee aside en route to its straw man argument. So, I'll quote Thistleton in larger context to better understand the issues. I make no apologies for supplying it as is, with no attempts to decipher. I think one can get the basic idea by carefully reading:
“The UBS 4th ed. Greek New Testament classifies vv. 34–35 as ‘B,’ i.e., ‘the text is almost certain,’ although the UBS 3d ed. also used ‘B’ but in that earlier edition this classification indicated ‘some degree of doubt.’ The basic facts are that the Western, D, E, F, G, the later 88*, and fourth-century Ambrosiaster displace vv. 34–35 to after v. 40. However, the very early 𝔓46 (Chester Beatty, c. AD 200, together with ℵ, B, A, 33, 88 mg, Vulgate, Old Syriac, and most other MSS) read these verses in their normal, accepted place. Many writers (including Weiss, Conzelmann, Klauck, and Senft) use this displacement in the Western text as part of an argument for the view that these verses are an interpolation, but we must keep our textual judgments distinct from arguments of other kinds. Surprisingly, Fee is one of those who place most weight on the textual variants, indicating ‘a very early marginal gloss that was subsequently placed in the text at two different places,’ and that these verses were ‘not part of the original.’ This variant displacement ‘may not be shunted aside.’
“While others agree that vv. 34–35 (or vv. 33b–36) are an interpolation, few place the weight that Fee does on a textual variant which Wire, with meticulous scholarship, shows to rest on a single MS tradition (see below). Metzger and Zuntz in fact find it entirely understandable that an early copyist should move vv. 34–35 to the end of the chapter for any of several reasons. Fee’s claims about the paucity of evidence for this type of displacement in the NT where the displacement is artificial seems to be answered by the range of evidence put forward by J. M. Ross. A thorough assessment is offered by A. C. Wire. She points out that every ‘displacement’ MS is either a Greek-Latin bilingual or a Latin text, that E is a direct copy of D, and that F and G are so close to each other that it is widely agreed that they copied the same edited text. In practice only D and G remain as two witnesses, which in turn almost certainly come from ‘a single common archetype.’ This distinctive Western text gives rise only to the appearance of a variety of Latin text-types, since these depend on the same single tradition. Wire further explains why the anomalous twelfth-century 88* reading is not a survival of earlier pre-Latin texts, but reflects a reactive scribal activity. Finally, in contrast to Fee, and with Metzger, she offers several possible reasons why the D tradition should have displaced the original authentic sequence which occurs in our texts (UBS 3d and 4th eds.). One relates to errors in copying (e.g., haplography) and their correction; a second, to an attempt to “improve” the text; a third, to ideological interests on the part of a corrector: ‘it is not scientific to exclude a priori the possibility of a translator’s or scribe’s ideological decision to displace or omit a passage silencing women.’ She cites the period of Montanism and Tertullian as a possible background for such changes.
[cont]
[cont]
The debate has become intensified by two highly detailed and meticulous studies by Philip Payne (1995) and by Curt Niccum (1997), each of which reaches different and opposing conclusions: Payne argues on the basis of the Vaticanus ‘bar umlaut and/or umlaut text-critical sigla . . . of the textual variations’ that new textual and internal evidence ‘strengthens an already strong case that 1 Cor 14:34–35 is an interpolation’; Niccum reviews every aspect of the debate (including Wire and Payne), and concludes, “No extant MS offers evidence for an original omission of 1 Cor 14:34–35. . . . No other reading has claim to being ‘original’ other than that of preserving the traditional sequence of verses.” Payne urges that Metzger overlooked the textual evidence of Codex Fuldensis as an important witness to the omission of the verses. Niccum attacks Payne’s appeal to “bar umlauts” marks as at best confused and as postdating the fourteenth century. The earliest known witness to a transposition of sequence in the passage is Ambrosiaster (late fourth century). He cites good reasons for a later reapplication of “in all the churches.” Niccum’s pages are packed with powerful and succinct arguments which prove convincing.
“Further arguments concerning the strictly textual issue are urged by others mainly in the same direction as Wire (anticipating Niccum) but sometimes with Fee. Horrell defends Fee’s position, arguing that Wire has failed to address the issues fully. Earle Ellis argues that vv. 34–35 constitute a marginal note added by Paul himself after reading through the draft of 1 Corinthians. Stephen Barton accepts and develops this idea further. On the other side, however, even Conzelmann, who believes that the verses are an interpolation on internal grounds (i.e., exegetical and theological, not textual), concedes that the Western readings are themselves ‘no argument for the assumption of an interpolation.’ Witherington expresses strong scepticism about the weight of the textual arguments: ‘Displacement is no argument for interpolation. Probably these verses were displaced by scribes who assumed that they were about household order, not order in worship, scribes working at a time when there were church buildings separate from private homes.’ (The earliest Western text witness is around AD 375.) Again, many of Fee’s points seem to be amply addressed by J. M. Ross, who categorizes different types of displaced or ‘floating’ texts within the NT. He argues that if the verses were an interpolation, this would be ‘very early, almost before any copies had been made, certainly before the writing of 1 Tim 2:11–13. . . . We are bound to accept the unanimous testimony of the manuscripts, however deeply we may regret that Paul expressed this opinion.’”
--Anthony C. Thiselton, The First Epistle to the Corinthians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, NIGTC; Accordance electronic ed. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2000), pp 1148-1150.
X,
What I just posted in Thistleton is an example of true scholarship: the engagement of many voices on both sides of the particular issue. I don't see this in your writings here.
Thus, I'm beginning to doubt you have actually earned a PhD.
What I see instead is a persistent penchant for erecting straw man arguments in order for you to 'win' your argument. That may work in some quarters, but it ain't cuttin' it with me and others here.
You fail in fairness.
Craig at 12:15
Just Google “gordon fee ordination of women”
Maybe DA Carson can assist you with that reconciliation question.
https://bible.org/seriespage/silent-churches-role-women-1-corinthians-1433b-36
NT Wright discusses the contradiction too along with criticizing Fee here.
https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/womens-service-in-the-church-the-biblical-basis/
X
X,
Once again, you adduce NO EVIDENCE for the position you wish to charge Fee with. In doing a quick Ctrl-F search, Wright speaks of the subordination of women, NOT ordination of women. Though Wright makes mention of Fee, it is NOT in the context you'd like to make it out to be:
One of the finest textual critics of our day, Gordon Fee, has argued very strongly that it is, purely on the grounds of the way the manuscript tradition unfolds. I urge you to examine his arguments and make up your own minds. But I have always been attracted, ever since I heard it, to the explanation offered once more by Ken Bailey. In the Middle East, he says, it was taken for granted that men and women would sit apart in church, as still happens today in some circles. Equally important, the service would be held (in Lebanon, say, or Syria, or Egypt), in formal or classical Arabic, which the men would all know but which many of the women would not, since the women would only speak a local dialect or patois. Again, we may disapprove of such an arrangement, but one of the things you learn in real pastoral work as opposed to ivory-tower academic theorizing is that you simply can’t take a community all the way from where it currently is to where you would ideally like it to be in a single flying leap. Anyway, the result would be that during the sermon in particular, the women, not understanding what was going on, would begin to get bored and talk among themselves. As Bailey describes the scene in such a church, the level of talking from the women’s side would steadily rise in volume, until the minister would have to say loudly, ‘Will the women please be quiet!’, whereupon the talking would die down, but only for a few minutes. Then, at some point, the minister would again have to ask the women to be quiet; and he would often add that if they wanted to know what was being said, they should ask their husbands to explain it to them when they got home. I know there are other explanations sometimes offered for this passage, some of them quite plausible; this is the one that has struck me for many years as having the strongest claim to provide a context for understanding what Paul is saying. After all, his central concern in 1 Corinthians 14 is for order and decency in the church’s worship. This would fit extremely well...
Wright's mention of "the ordination of women" DOES NOT INCLUDE Fee AT ALL: This, as I say, is the main passage that people quote when they want to suggest that the New Testament forbids the ordination of women.
And Carson takes time to fully engage with Fee's text critical argument, mentioning ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL about the ordination of women:
With the publication of the recent and generally excellent commentary by Fee, however, the view that verses 34-35 constitute a non-Pauline interpolation has gained wider credence. Before turning to interpretations of the text as it stands, it has become important to think through the reasoning of those who omit it...
Give it up, X.
Is "silent" an overly flat and absolute English translation from the Greek? Could it mean "quiet and gentle spirit?" (like in 1 Peter 3:4)?
Alternatively, I've read somewhere that in the Mosaic law people had to be quiet during the judgement of prophecy. Could women need to be silent during the judgement of prophecy so that wives would not publicly embarrass husbands while their prophecies were being judged?
We weren't there, but we can have faith that there must have been a reason that we would have understood in context and in the original language and that elders would have been able to ask questions about the letters that had been written to the churches.
Imagine 2,000 years from now if somebody read in our cultural writings, "the customer is always right" and took it completely literally and absolutely.
URGENT - Please go to the comments and EXPOSE, REPROVE and REBUKE the New Ager here, telling people they are God and playing the 'radical middle'. A lot of people there seem to be falling for his lies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKndp3S46HY
X 12:01 AM,
The church is supposed to be counter-cultural today and always.
But don't forget it was even more counter-cultural when it began. When I read the history of the early church I had a different impression of the Apostle Paul than I had gained from secular culture before my conversion. I had learned to see Jesus as egalitarian but Paul as a chauvinist.
If you study the history you'll see he used the things he found in the the culture of his time to serve the church. He took the Roman Household Codes and added Christian love to them. He used the Mediterranean very close brother-sister bond (because frequently brothers and sisters were the surviving members of their families and their parents were dead) as a metaphor for the whole church. In Roman society women were restricted but an exception was made for wealthy patronesses. Converted wealthy Roman patronesses opened their houses to become house churches and financially supported the ministries of apostles and disciples. He saw the alter of the unknown god and started talking about who the unknown God really is.
We tend to read our own culture wars back into the Bible, but they didn't have the luxury of culture wars. They expected they might be martyred and often were. Jesus emphasized enslavement to sin as being much worse than social or political enslavement. The early Christians were ready to lay down their lives and take up their crosses. They were not concerned about feminism, any more than they were concerned about capitalism or the Second Amendment.
The early church wasn't simply "patriarchal," because Greek and Roman culture engaged in male ancestor worship, but it was diametrically opposed to worshiping Jesus Christ.
The true church was unique and is unique.
It sure looks like insubordinate bluffer "Dr." X "PhD" hasn't been doing his homework. Tut, tut ...
Craig 5:01 PM,
And your defender added this: X did not demonize the 1st century Corinthian congregation. He made it clear he thought that these first century Christians laid the foundation.
But you quoted JMac who described the Corinthian congregation as worldly to the extent that their tongues was all gibberish. Plus, your words regarding laying the foundation had to do with the apostles and prophets (cf. Eph 2:20). Thus, it wasn't the Corinthian congregation that 'laid the foundation'.
I had overlooked that part.
I'm not a fan of "JMac." John MacArthur seems to be a kind of celebrity pastor to many, but some call the celebrity pastors "evangelical Popes." He doesn't seem that terrible compared to many celebrity pastors, but I don't believe in any kind of an "evangelical Pope."
Peter said that Paul's letters contained things that were sometimes hard to understand and that the unlearned and the unstable twisted those things "unto their own destruction."
2 Peter 3:15-16
King James Version
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
The critters were all being rightous yesterday. First, when I was trying to get the calves in the corral to feed them they both were lollygagging around eating apples, then the light brown heifer came up behind them and herded them in for me! I told her thank you and that I'd have a word with Roman about not doing his cow pony job. Then last night (when all 5 cows were in the lower field) I went in the corral to put on Romans blanket but he was acting all distraught about something, milling around by the gate in the rain with a wild look in his eye. Then all the cows came up when they saw us and I then got what Roman was up about. The calves were wet. So I let them in and they went straight in the lean-to with Roman right behind them and I gave the other 3 an extra 1/2 bale of hay.
Hope springs eternal ( - :
DIVERSITY IS OUR STRENGTH!
Thank you Joe Biden for opening our borders for millions of illegals, many of which are coming from Islamic countries.
LONDON HAS FALLEN: 50,000 March to Protest Jews
Anti-Israel Activists Wave Black Jihad Flag, Celebrate Hamas Terrorists at Pro-Palestine Protest in London
https://www.toddstarnes.com/crime/50000-march-in-london-to-protest-jews/
Sure wouldn't want to be Northern Gaza) - : Israeli Defense Forces are not going to be clearing those tunnels by hand.
US drops 'mother of all bombs on IS' - BBC News
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gha5S3fWnuA
Aerial Footage of MOAB Bomb Striking Cave, Tunnel System
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdPQvtX1S5c
Lord have mercy (cuz Israel's got none)
Craig,
“No evidence”?
Did you Google the search I suggested?
Fee can’t get to rewriting/reinterpreting (eisegesis?) Timothy for modern times without doing away with or reinterpreting 1 Cor 14 subordination first.
In other words… U can’t have ordination and subordination.
And I’m not the one trying to “win” here while being disrespectful and playing antics.
All I’m saying is that if you think MacArthurs interpretation is a first tier issue, then I’d think you’d also have issues with Fee creatively removing two verses from the Bible later in 1 Cor 14.
Also I did share multiple opinions. NTWright is far too wild for my tastes and DA is more reformed than I. I disregard most full continuists just as you seem to downgrade cessasstionist theologians.
X
May God protect all Christians with the blood of Jesus, whether they be Israelis, Palestinians or neither of those. The unbelieving and the murderous, those with hatred in their hearts who do not pray for their enemies and those who spitefully use them, whether Israeli, Palestinian or other, who do not deny themselves, but rather deny Jesus Christ, the Great 'I Am', the Alpha and the Omega, shall have their place in the Lake of Fire.
"Did you Google the search I suggested?"
Of course he didn't; Craig's pride goes before his fall. Hubris rather than humility is Craig's modus operandi.
X just has to have the last word doesn't he?
5:31 PM,
Why do you say that? Is it because you'd prefer your Idol of Arrogance, Craig, to have it? Or Perhaps you thought you'd have it with your pathetic, bully-boy (not manly at all) tactics?
What a silly, vile and vindictive troll you are.
How did the main topic of dispute between X and Craig go from, the continuation of gifts of the spirit, to the ordination of women?
(And does anybody care anymore?)
Nobody cares except the one who cares way too much @ 5:45 PM !
LOL
In the Song of Solomon, Jesus does not have an org chart meeting with his bride. He is not yelling at her to shut up in a meeting with her. He wants to see her face and hear her voice. The bride and the groom delight in each other. Aren't we lucky that our God is a relational God who loves us and wants to have a relationship with us? He is not Allah.
No, He is certainly NOT Allah, nor is He of the Talmud. For He is The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
We'll be seeing alot more of this now and hopefully the fentanyl flow will drop and alleviate the homeless crisis
Texas National Guard Prepares for Border Surge
https://youtu.be/JyiqDKV17Mo?si=v2ZwvsS9Bx9vCJRq
Human Intelligence and Demonic Intelligence
https://romalocutaest.com/2023/06/05/spiritual-warfare-how-demons-recruit-part-i-setting-the-stage/
"Still, the demons’ superior intellect would demand they follow the most advantageous process in determining their preferred targets. They appear to follow the same recruitment cycle that is employed by HUMINT officers.
Anon 11:28 AM,
I generally agree with you regarding John MacArthur. However, too many times he polemicizes positions to the point of mischaracterizing the opposing position (straw-manning) in his hyper-dogmatism. For example, since I’d recently searched a bit for both JMac and cessationism, a YouTube video came up on the subject, with an audience member asking him to define continuationism. The first words out of his mouth were something to the effect, “These are people who believe in new and continuing revelation.” The clear implication is that ALL continuationists believe this and ALL continuationists deny a closed Biblical canon. That is, of course, untrue.
"The clear implication is that ALL continuationists believe this and ALL continuationists deny a closed Biblical canon. That is, of course, untrue."
Yes, untrue.
He used that generalization to support his position as he maligned another's position.
I never listened to his radio program again.
X @ 4:56 PM,
You wrote: “No evidence”? Did you Google the search I suggested?
When you make a statement and another challenges your statement, it is up to you to substantiate it. Saying ‘google it’ is not providing evidence for your statement.
I’ve no idea how you wish to frame your criticism of Fee with respect to 1 Timothy 2:12-14 when you fail to provide it. I cannot engage a position you fail to substantiate.
You wrote: Fee can’t get to rewriting/reinterpreting (eisegesis?) Timothy for modern times without doing away with or reinterpreting 1 Cor 14 subordination first. In other words… U can’t have ordination and subordination.
That’s a non sequitur. As I’ve already noted, 1Cor 11:5 and 11:13 both address women prophesying and praying in church within limitations—not remaining silent. Thus, 1Cor 14:34-35 cannot mean women should be silent with no further qualification. Fee sees a contradiction, and by doing NT textual criticism argues for 14:34-35’s inauthenticity. 1Cor 11 implies subordination. Fee does not challenge that at all. Therefore, you’ve misrepresented (straw-manned) Fee here.
You wrote: And I’m not the one trying to “win” here while being disrespectful and playing antics.
Au contraire. For the reasons I’ve provided above you are doing some of your usual ‘antics’. Instead of conceding MacArthur’s strained exegesis (eisegesis) in 1Cor 13:8 (plucking tongues from the middle, and etc, as I’ve noted earlier) you resort to whataboutism—in other words, this sidetrack regarding Fee. And then in your whataboutism, you don’t really define your argument and you straw-man the portion you do provide.
Most here can see through your attempt at playing the victim.
You wrote: All I’m saying is that if you think MacArthurs interpretation is a first tier issue, then I’d think you’d also have issues with Fee creatively removing two verses from the Bible later in 1 Cor 14.
I see this as a false equivalency (and whataboutism). MacArthur has manifold issues in his “exegesis” of the relevant Corinthian passages, one stacked atop the others (as I’ve already addressed). On the other hand, Fee has fairly engaged the text. One can certainly disagree with his text critical methods for 14:34-35, and I’ve added quite a bit of context with views pro and con to what you’d initially provided.
You wrote: … I disregard most full continuists just as you seem to downgrade cessasstionist theologians.
While I think cessationists’ arguments do not hold up to Biblical scrutiny generally, I take special exception to MacArthur’s methods, which go beyond the much more careful cessationism arguments by others.
"Most here can see through your attempt at playing the victim."
Truth isn't a victim. It can defend itself.
This is one of the reasons why he isn't on higher or even level ground in most any discussion.
So dismissible.
Next!
X (and all),
The following is taken from Gordon Fee’s “The Priority of Spirit Gifting for Church Ministry” in Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity without Hierarchy ( Ronald W. Pierce, Rebecca Merrill Groothuis, Gordon D. Fee, eds. [Leicester: IVP Academic, 2005], p 254). Note the subtitle in the very title of the main work from which Fee’s piece is sourced: Complementarity without Hierarchy. This connotes a nuanced egalitarianism. Bold added for my emphasis:
It seems a sad commentary on the church and on its understanding of the Holy Spirit that “official” leadership and ministry is allowed to come from only one half of the community of faith. The New Testament evidence is that the Holy Spirit is gender inclusive, gifting both men and women, and thus potentially setting the whole body free for all the parts to minister and in various ways to give leadership to the others. Thus my issue in the end is not a feminist agenda—an advocacy of women in ministry. Rather, it is a Spirit agenda, a plea for the releasing of the Spirit from our strictures and structures so that the church might minister to itself and to the world more effectively.
The way I read Fee elsewhere is that he acknowledges that women are not to teach men. But, of course, certainly women can teach women! Which brings to my mind something I’ve long pondered: Would we think it any way wrong for a man—in this case me—to read commentary (e.g.) written by a woman? To that I respond with one particular book in mind. I’ve gained a number of insights by reading Marianne Meye Thompson’s The God in the Gospel of John (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2001). The late Dr. Larry Hurtado recommended in a blog post years back.
Did anyone here learn from Constance Cumbey?
Israel is basically an armed fortress. Everywhere in Israel, there are IDF soldiers that are armed with automatic weapons. As innocent people were being systematically slaughtered, why did it take so long for the IDF to respond? Did they have a stand down order?
Charlie Kirk Challenges the Official Narrative About Israel's Response to Hamas Terrorist Attack
(short but provocative video)
https://rumble.com/v3p80jw-charlie-kirk-challenges-the-official-narrative-about-israels-response-to-ha.html
What would the Lord of the Sabbath say about it? You know, the guy who asked the Pharisees if the Sabbath was created for man, or man was created for the Sabbath?
Women in the Southern Baptist Convention, who have tried to faithfully do what they can do and have not strived to have authority over men by becoming ordained, have even had to cringe in anxiety about what will happen if they teach Sunday school to children but have adult male volunteers.
The world is watching, and it's seeing neither the glory of God, the glory of man, or the glory of woman.
Some sobering verses for the proud that have a high opinion of themselves:
Proverbs 16:5 - Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
Galatians 6:3 - For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
James 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Proverbs 26:12 - Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
1 John 2:16 - For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Romans 12:16 - Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
10:06 AM,
If you rob a house with an unlocked door, should you be charged with a crime? Or is it only a crime if you picked the lock? Or only a crime if the homeowner tried to shoot you and missed?
Hamas did what it did, and it was evil.
Are you insinuating that Israel's failures of security were more evil than what Hamas did?
Craig 8:49 AM,
You've shown every effort to engage with X in an intellectually honest way, handling the Word of God with respect, and to get him to do the same in return. The points of discussion will go on being debated by scholars and laypeople for quite some time, no doubt about it. They won't be settled on My Perspective: What Constance Thinks.
But X has shown how he operates, and no doubt how he operates will go on, too.
But we've all seen it. Don't think that the majority are gaslighted by him.
10:06 Anon
That same argument applies to the January 6th insurrection.
MAGA insurrectionists did what they did, and it was evil.
The Trumpniks have insinuated that the failures of Captol security were more evil than the more than the 1,100 people charged with federal crimes.
The blame game doesn't work well for either side.
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