Wednesday, May 30, 2012

A good summary from a long time fellow researcher

My dear friend Dorothy Margraf just sent this to me.  I thought it would be valuable to all and so I am posting it here:
"I wrote this to explain to others what the New Age movement is for those who may have forgotten what it is.  Names, dates, places and ideas that are pushed can be filled in, but here I wanted a short overview.  If you have questions, email me.


The New Age movement is an offshoot of other movements, only it is well 
organized. Occult/pagan practices probably go back to the beginning of time. The 

New Age movement is a deliberate joining of occult organizations with political 
organizations by well connected individuals with power. The organizations 
supporting it have been growing for over a 100 years. That's the difference.


Do not underestimate the intelligence of those involved in growing that movement. Many people follow Judaism and Christianity without examination. A 
much smaller group sees the flaws in organized religion but not its value. It 

takes wisdom to move beyond that and few have developed that. A portion of those 
in the middle believe they have developed a better system to make the world a 
better place. This they wish to do by eliminating organized Judaism and 
Christianity and forming a united government to organize the world.  They are filled with pride 
and lack wisdom.



Because so little information has been shared about the organized concrete 
aspects of the New Age movement, it has become very easy to turn the heads of 


people.


Cumbey put the pieces together in one book that was easy to understand which 
is why it sold so well. Few who read the book were willing to go further in 


knowing what it is. Her research goes into much greater depth. Those who can't 

go past what appeared in her first book are not ready to pursue further 

information. For example information on the Alliance of Civilizations was

presented here, at the blog.  I remember only a few people picking up on that 
information,examining it further and letting others know what they found. Most 


people just want to sit on their heinies, give opinions and let others do the 

hard work of research.


Infiltration into churches, synagogues and political movements by those who 
have absorbed New Age ideas is quite easy because so very few have any ideas 


what the are the concrete aspects of New Age. Little tidbits of information 

presented in an unorganized manner won't make any difference.


Saying that New Age is complex and then going off and attacking religions is 
a tactic used by propagandists for New Age. Telling others follow this or that 


religion is useless in saving people from being seduced by New Age ideas if you 

can't tell them what New Age is.

Well said, Dorothy Margraf, and thanks!

To all the rest, STAY TUNED!

CONSTANCE
Comments:
In support of Dorothy, I would just like to repeat my comment, which was posted yesterday afternoon on the previous thread and may have become lost in the shuffle....

BRAVO, Dorothy for all that you do....and for your 30 plus years of tireless work in courageously and aggressively exposing antisemitism....along with all of its complex New Age connections!!!

Those who know you KNOW where your heart is.
 
I'm sorry, but that's a pitiful, hopeless
summary of the situation. The last line
in particular, but really the whole thing is
missing the one thing that is relevant
as far as I'm concerned.
There is a sovereign God in heaven and
He puts a hedge of protection around
his people who call upon his name and
who love him.
Witchcraft, paganism, New Age etc etc., will
all melt like wax before the fire of his
righteousness.
No kudos to you at all Ms Dorothy, not from
me. Your entire synopsis is just an
example of a complete lack of faith,
and, really, atheism; self serving, self
righteous, pointless, hopeless atheism.

I already know what the comebacks will be.
"God helps those who help themselves"
"God gave you a brain, so use it"...etc etc
That's just pride. The truth is,
God helps those who surrender to him,
and God didn't give us a brain to study
Satan in depth, but to study God's awesome
creation.
As far as antisemitism goes, Dorothy your
motto should be; " Ready... Fire... AIM! "
_and you don't care who you hurt.
 
I can't wait for the Second Coming, then we shall have one-WORD government:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
 
WOW, Paul ~ I am almost speechless. You are really one to talk abut 'hurting' people. You do it every single day on this blog....and, at the same time, manage to reveal to the entire world everything that a Christian should NOT be....a person who, while posting biblical passsages, is absent of love and compassion for others!!!
 
From World Net Daily (05/31/12):

BILDERBERG IS 'A CONSPIRACY REALITY'

CHANTILLY, Va. – A Madrid-based investigative journalist who has spent years researching the Bilderberg group – that shadowy organization of high-level leaders in finance and government – is warning that there’s no “conspiracy theory” behind the group: “It’s a conspiracy reality.”

Daniel Estulin, author of “The True Story of the Bilderberg Group,” contends people should care because the idea behind each and every Bilderberg meeting “is to create what they themselves call the aristocracy of purpose between European and North American elites on the best way to manage the planet.”

“In other words,” Estulin told WND in an email exchange in which he answered questions, “the creation of a global network of giant cartels, more powerful than any nation on Earth, destined to control the necessities of life of the rest of humanity.”

The issue arises because of plans announced by the organization to hold meetings this week in the United States.

This year’s private meeting is being held at the Westfield Marriott Convention Center in Chantilly, Va. – the same place it was held four years ago when rumors circulated the group had determined Barack Obama would be the Democratic presidential nominee, not Hillary Clinton. Two days after the event, Clinton bowed out of the race.

The group usually holds its annual meeting in Europe, with past meetings in France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain, Denmark, Scotland and Norway. But this week, through June 4, the Bilderberg Group is meeting about 20 miles from the U.S. capital.

More...
http://tinyurl.com/8xbf7mn
 
Mark 12:30-31 (KJV)

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
 
“In other words,” Estulin told WND in an email exchange in which he answered questions, “the creation of a global network of giant cartels, more powerful than any nation on Earth, destined to control the necessities of life of the rest of humanity.”

kinda reminds me of the Weyland-Yutani mega corporation conglomerate, doing mining in space and having colonies and a weapons division, in the movie ALIEN, who wanted the xenomorph for their weapons division, and oops, this thing is a bio and physical attack menace to all humanity.
 
Paul, while there is some merit to your statement, "God didn't give us a brain to study Satan in depth, but to study God's awesome creation", Dorothy is not studying satan in depth. which is admittedly dangerous.

I do not understand your hatred of her, and I suppose you don't really like Constance's similar work either, but don't dare attack her unless you do so as one of the anons now and then on her blog.

Consider God's word in The Bible:

Ephes. 5:11, 13 "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them....But all things are exposed made manifest by the light, FOR WHATEVER MAKES MANIFEST IS LIGHT."

I have long thought that would be a good motto for a private investigator.

2 Cor. 2:11 "so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes."

The context of this is the matter of forgiveness and Paul forgiving those they forgave, but it might also have an application elsewhere.

This is what Dorothy and Constance have been doing.

The NWO and NEw Age always welcomes Jews AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD OR PRACTICE THEIR FAITH EXCEPT AS A CULTURAL THING ONLY AND NOT VERY MUCH, and preferably if they turn to canaanite paganism misnamed in some quarters Hebrew "goddess" worship, by which is not mean YHWH called female, but the syncretism at best and full apostasy at worst that the Prophets reported and condemned, and that some twisting the witness of archaeology that such happened, argue that this was the faith of the Jews until Yahwehism was introduced sometime after 600 BC or whatever. I have seen a book advocating pagan reconstructionism of the canaanite sort, didn't open it but could tell from the cover, in an occult shop in San Francisco, which had an after hours scene that was essentially a recruiting effort to move people step by step into more and more darkness. At the center was human sacrifice. Most knew nothing of this, though the meetings at full moon there did involve discussion of animal sacrifice.
 
Christine,
Both you and the anonymous who replied
to my comment, seem to have read-in
major intentions to my post which simply
aren't there. Read it again. It's just a short two paragraphs.
Read it again. What hate are you talking about?
I don't hate Dorothy, and saying that I do is
a slander in itself, which I've noticed always
pops up around here, not only aimed at me
but at anyone who dares to point out the
belligerent, stubborn refusal to acknowledge
that Jesus is the solution to to this whole mess.
It reminds me of the gay technique of screaming
"hater! hater! when someone disagrees with them.
It's apparently more important to follow Dorothy
than it is to follow Jesus.

_But I definitely do hate what Dorothy said:
Her conclusion above says:

"Telling others (to) follow this or that
religion is useless in saving people from being seduced by New Age ideas if you
can't tell them what New Age is. "

That's worse than a mistake. It's a lie.
But go ahead my anonymous judge,
follow Dorothy, and her self serving
self made religion of "tireless research"
if you must, even though intellect
has never saved anyone.
There IS a way out. Much more than
that, there is peace that passes all
understanding and absolute, infinite
protection from the New Age and all
its' demonic seductions.
He is Jehovah God, and he sent his
only begotten son to be the way,
the truth and the life. He also gave us
the comforter, the spirit of truth,
the Holy Ghost.
It seems to me that you'd rather
play a game.
 
Dorothy,
That is an excellent summary of the New Age Movement. It couldn't have been put any more clear. Thank you.
John
 
paul, hatred is intense dislike. And while it is not pointless to tell people to follow Jesus Christ even if they get seduced by new age versions because you can then point out the differences between what He says and what the NAM movement says,

you can THINK you are following this or that religion incl. Christianity, and be mired in a set of false ideas.

Now, being steeped in The Bible will help prevent this, but how many are going to do this? how many who read The Bible are just reading segments with preset interpretations and so forth, and if these are reasonably correct well and good, but if these are shaped by new age infiltrated churches, not so good.

The specific doctrines may be retained correctly, while there are confusions about application of some things about living and thinking and so forth, about prayer and then look at the quantum cosmic nephilim whatnot that Herescope has been critiqueing lately.

Anything can become a religion on the sly, like C. S. Lewis' Screwtape says, a person can be moved from Christianity to Christianity and.... and it doesn't matter what is on the other side of that and as long as it becomes primary and gradually displaces Christianity.

It is not impossible that Dorothy occasionally slips into this state regarding research, but that doesn't invalidate research in itself or the results.
 
Christine,
Again you completely disregard
the Holy Spirit, and leave him out of the
equation which is all about you and your
amazing intellect.
Do you think any of us would even be
standing here without Gods grace?
This whole world is populated by
demons and imps and principalities
and powers way beyond our power to
outsmart them or even resist them.
We are all here floating in a sea of
God's grace and protection.
You want to take credit for that?
Sorry. I'm not buying your product.

God has saved my life quite a few times
that I know of, and probably a thousand
times that I wasn't even aware of.
People are fallen and sinful. That's why
they don't want to read God's Word.
Even when we do read it, it's His decision
whether to open it up to us or not.
But He will open it up if we just show
a smidgeon of faith; just a chintzy, tiny
measley speck of faith will drive demons
and evil lying unclean spirits running away.
I know this to be the truth.
Don't try to tell me and every one else
that we have to educate ourselves on all
the many variations and subtle
manipulations of this "new age" which is
nothing more than what David spelled
out in the second Psalm.
Focus on what matters.

In the words of Popeye the sailorman:
"I ain't a physicix, but I knows what matters.
 
Paul:

In the words of Popeye the sailorman, "Eat your spinach."
Maybe it will help to calm you down.
 
CLOSE YOUR FACEBOOK ACCOUNT

http://tinyurl.com/6t54hmp
 
If Paul hated Dorothy I doubt he'd be telling her to turn to Jesus Christ, which if she does she will most certainly be saved. I think Paul is standing up for the truth and exposing that which is darkness. When Jesus Christ exposes the wicked deeds and hypocrisy of the pharisees, chiding them and calling them vipers in Matthew 23, he was not showing hatred to them but rather love to others through warning. Paul is being a good watchman. If we are not for Jesus Christ we are against Him.

Dorothy, turn to the Lord and Savior, your Lord and Savior, Jesus Chr5ist and be saved!

Paul, there are some of us, even anons, who respect your position and although it is a little rough around the edges, respect your motive, courage and imput. Please continue to speak out. You're a breath of fresh air round here.

Frank
 
Dorothy's husband runs a major Newsparper & media corporation. Isn't that right Dorothy?! That's in Illinois of course. I wonder if she's connected to the EU Margraf media and the German one?

http://www.margraf-publishers.eu/en/e-media/e-learning.html

http://www.margraf-new-media.com/

Now what did Rockefeller say again? Oh yes:


'We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine, and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination [read as 'democracy'] practiced in past centuries

and

Walter Cronkite wrote:
"'A handful of us determine what will be on the evening news broadcasts, or, for that matter, in the New York Times or Washington Post or Wall Street Journal.... Indeed it is a handful of us with this awesome power... a strongly editorial power.

"...we must deicide which news items out of hundreds available we are going to expose that day. And those [news stories] available to us already have been culled and re-culled by persons far outside our control.'"

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/globalism/rockefeller.htm
 
and maybe that is where she got her start in realizing something was wrong and investigate further and throw light on it?
 
Charlotte Iserbylt is daughter of a Skull and Bonesman who, towards the end of his life, was sympathetic to her efforts against them.
 
I doubt it Christine! She's a supporter of kabalah - zohar, NAM to the core!

Interesting how you support her every move when she's never supported you or has she? Looking at some of the past comments it sure seems like her style sniping from the weeds at you.

Frank
 
Now Christine, I don't know if the supposition is true by anon at 6:19 PM but I think it's worth a thorough research, don't you? There sure is something fishy about that woman and about your ardent defense of her too.

Frank
 
support her every move - that's an exaggeration

when she never supported me - so what? no Christian should be thinking in such terms. You don't support or oppose as personal clicque team games or for personal ambition and self exalting strife.
If your only interest in anything is how it exalts you or your friends, then shut up and go home. pursuit of truth has nothing to do with that, and I have already twice cited Rosa Koire as a valuable source on Agenda 21 and that ONLY and mentioned she is nothing you would normally want to do with outside of this, and that because of shared opposition to Agenda 21 this avowed lesbian and God knows what else was a featured speaker at a Tea Party event on Agenda 21 on a youtube video.

Sure, you don't want a close partnership like "what part has light with darkness or Christ with belial?" but making use of shared opposition to something is not being in a tight yoke with someone.

Some of the best resources on the NAM is the NAM itself, it brags and preaches too much to keep secrets well.

I support or oppose strictly on what makes sense as right at the time.

As for her kabbalah stuff, where is this supposed support?
 
type Margraf Kabbalah into google and see what comes up top of the page.


Frank
 
Christine, you wrote: "no Christian should be thinking in such terms. "

So you'd rather support a known kabbalist than a known Bible believing Christian (Paul), is that it?

Please Christine, wake up! Paul is not aimed at hurting Dorothy but he warns others and rebukes her and exposes her folly. As a Christian you'd do well to follow suit.
 
Christine, you wrote: "no Christian should be thinking in such terms. "

So you'd rather support a known kabbalist than a known Bible believing Christian (Paul), is that it?

Please Christine, wake up! Paul is not aimed at hurting Dorothy but he warns others and rebukes her and exposes her folly. As a Christian you'd do well to follow suit.
 
Chrisatine, do you not know that we do not fight flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places?

The Kabbalah and the New Age and anything which is contrary to what the Holy Bible says in context and contrary to Jesus Christ is to be exposed and rebuked.

Frank
 
Margraf Publishers Gmbh that last four letters means it is a GERMAN publishing house, no mention of her on its home page and not even on the page google says its on, must have published something else that site has or had available.

try this instead. http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-antisemitism&month=9904&week=&msg=NzHkby1WmwfFmfkaqKl%2BPg&user=&pw=

Dorothy denounces the New Age effort to exploit the Zohar. I suspect she has not read the whole thing or knows about use of parts of it by Jewish and other magicians which has little to do with self divinization. The Zohar is a mixed bag of tricks, and pious Jews are not going to be sharing the less pious parts but only the better excerpts.

Book Briah of the Kabbalah trilogy is the most like a simple exposition of parts of the OT with minimal problems.

I am not that crazy about Kabbalah, but neither the magicians' applicaitons, nor the NAM idea of what it teaches is all there is to it.
 
Christine, just a thought - do you agree that Jesus Christ is Lord and we should obey His commandments? What about Matthew 23: 9 do you agree that you should obey His commandment there? Do you?

KJV 2000 Matt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven.

It states the same in the Eastern Orthodox Bible (EOB) doesn't it!

καὶ πατέρα μὴ καλέσητε ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·
εἷς γάρ ἐστιν ὁ πατήρ ὑμῶν, ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.


Frank
 
Christine, the Zohar is Kabbalah, or are you not aware of that? You don't seriously support the Zohar do you? To imply that there may be some good in it by stating it may be exploited for evil purposes is ridiculous given the Zohar itself is already evil!

Secondly, from what I can deduce the Anon comment at 6:19 PM makes it clear that the point to be researched is her husband's running of a media company in Illinois. The other links are mentiioned as curiosities that may or may not be related though extraordinarily coincidental, especially seeing as google shows the other as publishing kabbalah material! I think that's why we're urged to reasearch THOROUGHLY into this matter of Margraf and the media. How could you misunderstand such facile yet clear instruction is beyond me!

Now, without further diversion by you please answer the points put to you regarding Matthew 23: 9.

Frank
 
hard work??? research???
no one could do that much and still maintain a job and a family ...
you "discernment ministries" are being fed this information by the elites ...
 
has Dorothy suffered a stroke?
her summary was sophomoric
 
regarding Paul and Dorothy - it is not a question of supporting a Christian vs. a non Christian. it is a question of WHO IS RIGHT ON THE ISSUE, 2 Cor,. 8:21 Gal. 6:10 (do good to all as well as especially those of the faith) Ephes 5:13 and Dorothy is mostly right, though crippled by her not being Christian. Paul is crippled by something else not sure what it is.

The segment of kabbalah she is into if at all, is not the part the NAM is into since she fights strongly against all the human is divine sort of thing, which is at the root of the NAM and plays a role in some of its political efforts as expressions of their so called spirituality. (Of course the elites could be a case of some are more divine than others. Contrary as some new agers may see the depredations of the more predatory illuminati and one world govt. superrich crew as being to their understanding of the NAM, they are in fact two sides of the same coin.)

Calling no man father - did not Paul refer to himself as the Corinthians' father in the faith because he begot them in the faith because he converted them? I Cor. 4:15. Go ahead and refuse to call your earthly father father or dad or whatever just mr. whatever. The context of Jesus' remarks was elitist posturing and guruism by such people and the adoration of their followers.
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." John 7:24 could apply against proof texting.

As for the automatic rightness of Christians, note Paul's having to reprove Corinthians right and left and complaint of suffering from false brethren and believers with worldly priorities.

The only rebuking and exposing of Dorothy that Paul is doing, is rebuking her fight against evil!
 
Christine, I put it too you that Dorothy is an insider, a new ager. THere's nothing good about the Kabbalah, Zohar or otherwise! It's straight out of the pits of Hell via Ancient Babylon!

Paul is a Christian and has been posting here alot longer than you. His and Dorothy's history is due to her rigid support of the demonic, i.e., Kabalah!

Paul is a Christian. You try and twist the words of Jesus Christ. In Matthew 23 Jesus is chiding the pharisees and warning against them and their vain traditions of men. Jesus Christ is commanding us not to call any man in a religious sense father, nor to call them Rabbi. Matthew is referring to using "Father" as a religious title.

Obviously, we have Earthly fathers. Paul wasn't saying Timothy should call him Father, but merely pointing out that he was similar to a father to him in the spiritual sense.

There is no contradiction between Matt 23:9 & I Cor 4:15, the command Jesus Christ clearly gives us in Matthew is that we should not give religious titles such as rabbi or father to others.

Paul posting on this blog is a Christian, a little rough in his approach perhaps, but his heart's in the right place. Perhaps you don't realize it but you do him an injustice Christine.

Frank
 
no I don't All I see is that while some points he makes have some validity IF the target is making an idol out of an activity, and says some truths in general yes, what draws his ire is her RESEARCH and OUTSPOKEN OPPOSITION to evils this blog is about opposition to.

I notice that whenever issues about divine nature of human or occultism of the practical sort come up, any straying from a narrow focus on opposing the kind of politics that might be opposed by people who are occultists but have personal agendas that oppose the NWO, all of a sudden a roar goes up, with various excuses in tow.

Now, I notice Paul uses the name "Jehovah God." While one can use that and not be a Jehovah's Witness, the JWs are basically a retread of every heresy that ever plagued the early church, and that are refuted by Scripture in printed and online discernment and anticult literature.

So, Paul, just what church do you go to?
 
Christine, regarding Matt 23:9 and I Cor 4:15, for the sake of expediency the information contained on the link below should be of use to you and others in realizing Jesus Christ meant what He said in Matt 23:


http://christians-4-truth.com/whoisyourfather.php

Frank
 
St. Paul wasn't addressing Timothy he was addressing the Corinthian congregation and saying they should pay attention to what he says. Jesus was describing the pomposity and pride and guruism and adoration attitude that are wrong, and how the titles tend to come from that or produce it, I did not say there was a contradiction in The Bible, I am implying there is a contradiction between The Bible and YOUR interpretation of part of it.

Dorothy Margraf is not the writer or publisher of that book at the top of the google search list, has nothing to do with that, and her remarks about the kabbalah does not indicate she is into it all that much, just that NAM application of it is a misapplication.

Frankly, I agree with that rabbi whoever he was who said that kabbalah is "a disease of the mind," but many rabbis consider it the soul of judaism, and they and Dorothy probably do not know all of it or of the practices connected with it in past centuries.

The Zohar was the spawn of the deranged mind of one man in Spain, whose widow later admitted he made it all up.
 
St. Paul wasn't addressing Timothy he was addressing the Corinthian congregation and saying they should pay attention to what he says. Jesus was describing the pomposity and pride and guruism and adoration attitude that are wrong, and how the titles tend to come from that or produce it, I did not say there was a contradiction in The Bible, I am implying there is a contradiction between The Bible and YOUR interpretation of part of it.

Dorothy Margraf is not the writer or publisher of that book at the top of the google search list, has nothing to do with that, and her remarks about the kabbalah does not indicate she is into it all that much, just that NAM application of it is a misapplication.

Frankly, I agree with that rabbi whoever he was who said that kabbalah is "a disease of the mind," but many rabbis consider it the soul of judaism, and they and Dorothy probably do not know all of it or of the practices connected with it in past centuries.

The Zohar was the spawn of the deranged mind of one man in Spain, whose widow later admitted he made it all up.
 
Thoughts anyone, on Tim Flannery, the climate change guru in Australia. New Age? Definitely. Australia now has a carbon tax. Are we next?

Anyone read The Harbinger? Must reading for every Christian!

BTW, I believe Dorothy's hubby is long dead. Leave her alone.
 
Christine, I agree the JWs are an herretical bunch. However, I do not see why Christians wouldn't refer to God as Jehovah or Jehovah - God, which is after all His Name. The JWs have no patent on God's Holy Name.

I see no evidence apart form this spurious claim that Paul is a JW. Still, you've asked him and I am sure he'll be honest enough to answer you whether or not he is a JW.

I call myself a Christian, it needs no further titular qualification.

Do I believe Jesus Christ is God Eternal, the Great I AM? Absolutely I do!
 
Frank
 
Frank
 
Christine, please do not confuse my remarks. I am making the point of Timothy because of his relationship with Paul. I am not confused over the point that Paul in I Cor 4:15 was addressing the Corinthians, come on you're clever enough to work that out, surely. Yet you do, despite your protest to the contrary, imply there's a contradiction between Matt 23:9 and I Cor 4:15, for unless you agree with my take on it, you can do nothing but that however you try to window dress the matter. Again , see my posts above on this issue!

I'm glad you acknowledge that the Zohar os a book of lies where you state, "The Zohar was the spawn of the deranged mind of one man in Spain, whose widow later admitted he made it all up", even if you don't elaborate on the fact that it has its kabbalistic origins in Ancient Babylon, which center around the lie told by SAtan in the Garden of Eden, which was 'ye shall be as gods', the very same lie spouted by the NAM today!

Frank
 
Christine,

I've made my points. Please realize Paul is anti-NAM and anti-Kabbalah because he is pro-Bible, and there's nothing contradictory about that, unless you're right about your JW suspicions, which I doubt very much.

Regards,

Frank.
 
FYI...

To those of you who are so busy practicing your so-called 'Christianity' by 'demonizing' Dorothy...at least get your facts straight. She happens to be a widow.
 
"Yet you do, despite your protest to the contrary, imply there's a contradiction between Matt 23:9 and I Cor 4:15, for unless you agree with my take on it, you can do nothing but that however you try to window dress the matter. Again , see my posts above on this issue!"

WRONG, my point in making the contrast is to show that since, as I assume you agree, The Bible DOES NOT contradict itself, it follows that THE WAY YOU INTERPRET that statement of Jesus' is not entirely correct. If He meant literally not hyperbolically to make a point "call NO MAN father," then you can't call your earthly father your father or any variant of the term, except perhaps something like genetic or adoptive immediate first generation ancestor male, and Paul could not be saying what he said and be on track with Jesus

UNLESS your application of Christ's words is excessive and incorrect in attempting to argue against EO terminology.

Kabbalah is too recent to be Babylonian, but it is possible that some elements of magic in it goes back to that. The actual books Yetzirah, Briah and Zohar are of more recent provenance, Yetzirah the book that focusses on use of letters of the Hebrew Alphabet to do magic with, or rather, gives the information on the meaning and significance of each letter in how God supposedly used each in making things, is from the time of the Hebrew square style lettering we see today, not the earlier kind.

Briah introduces the sephiroth but not like they are presented in occultism, more like a flight of ufos, and mostly is a normal not mystical seeming exposition of the OT aka Jewish Scriptures. It is the Zohar that gets really wierd and that is from the Middle Ages.
 
"but merely pointing out that he was similar to a father to him in the spiritual sense."

And that is that EO and RC are doing, or should be doing, when they apply the term in addressing or referring to a priest.
 
Christine,
Although answering your question is the
equivalent of walking across a minefield, considering the fact that you've made a career of studying
chemtrails, nephilim, so-called super bombs
that don't exist (even though a PhD physicist
explained it to you and you chose to consider
yourself a better judge of such things),
you're also an expert on the history of religion,
the validity of every denomination and what
exactly is orthodox and what isn't, all while
dropping "f bombs" here and there and, and,
oh, I can't even remember half the ridiculous things you've said on here. Yes answering your demand
to know what church I go to feels like putting my
hand into a hole in the ground which looks
very much like it could be a den of vipers.

I don't speak Aramaic but sometimes I like to
use the Aramaic term for The Lord, which is
what Jehovah means. Now please don't give me
explanation of the sacred tetragrammaton.
I'm just saying...He said to Moses, in Hebrew,
"I Am that I Am" and then to clarify it even more
he instructed Moses to just "tell the people that
I Am has sent you". Right ? So his name is I Am.
pronounced, according to Strongs Concordance,
"A-nee haw-yaw", so I don't really understand
how they get Jehovah from that, but they do.
I don't think that his name is Jehovah, I think
that it's one of his titles. He is The Lord. In
fact his name is holy, so no one knows what it is.
It's way way beyond us.

The thing about the connecting word "that"
which the King James puts in there is that
the Hebrew word "asher", means not only "that"
but "what", "who", and "as" as well, so He must have been saying that He is what he is, He is as He is,
He is who He is, and He is that He is. But in his grace he told Moses to just refer to him as "I Am"

I really hate to set your overactive googlizing
tendencies to an inevitable attack on my church,
so it's with the clear caveat that I don't believe that I'm redeemed , forgiven, or saved by my choice
of denomination ( which just means "name"),
I attend an AME Zion church because it's the one
that I found which preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ week in and week out. The sermons are all
biblically based and centered around Jesus the
Christ. There's no politics mixed in, no pop
psychology, or dominionism or prosperity
cult preaching going on, at least not yet.
There sure isn't any deeper-than-thou
esoteric spiritism going on. Just the old fashioned
Good News that we don't have to die in our sins,
in fact we can actually change and renew ourselves,
no matter how screwed up we might be when we start out.
African Methodist Episcopel Zion. Born of God, tried in the oven of slavery, The Freedom Church.

PS Thank you, Frank
 
PPS

I consider the Jehovah's Witnesses to be my brothers and sisters, even though I'm not so sure about
William Taze Russel's translation of the scriptures.
_Or William Taze Russell himself for that matter.
I also consider the Seventh Day Adventists to be
my brothers and sisters, though I'm pretty sure
that Helen White got way off the track at some point.
Ditto The Roman Catholics
Ditto just about every other denomination with
the possible exception of Mormons and Unitarian
Universalists, but then, it's not my call and what a relief it is to know that.
I believe that in every case the devil goes after the
LEADERSHIP with much more force than the
various sheep of the flocks.
 
I attend an AME Zion church

glad to hear that. I won't go into issues of pronouncing God's Name or spelling it, except there is no hard J in semitic languages, and English only got the hard J somehow in the past several centuries.

sorry for my suspiciousness. Now, I agree politics can be an idol, especially when one thinks that a particular form serves God. None do in perfection and all do at one time or another however slightly, maybe a few cases don't at all ever. I don't know.

Research can be an idol. Fighting evil can be an idol, and a really dangerous one, because then you NEED some evil to exist to give your life meaning.

Another problem I have about looking for the antichrist, is that we should be LOOKING FOR THE ARRIVAL OF JESUS, not necessarily literally expecting it to really happen at any time (other than at our personal deaths and personal judgement), But to LIVE AS IF IT WERE ABOUT TO HAPPEN, to be watchful and ready for Him, not like the bad servant who says "my Lord delays His coming" and does evil.
 
"got way off the track at some point.
...
Ditto just about every other denomination with
the possible exception of Mormons and Unitarian
Universalists,"

er, how do you figure Mormons and Unitarian Universalists are not off track? The former teach all kinds of error and the UU crew deny the Trinity and the divinity of Christ!

the UU as distinct from Unitarians have historically been a primary means of accomodating wicca and New Age in terms of physical accomodations and making them seem respectable. I recall some announcements for meetings of such, to be held at UU churches, in one case a regular get together on a front lawn each week, not during the church service.
 
Paul,

Your discenrnment re the JW and reincarnation is what's pitiful. And you have the nerve to criticize Dorothy.
 
This discussion has become about the definition of a Christian.

Surely it is someone who worships Jesus of Nazareth as divine, where divine refers to the God revealed in the Old Testament, most importantly as the Creator of the world and man. Someone who acknowledges that Jesus' death on the cross was sufficient sacrifice for his sins, and that Jesus was resurrected. And someone who worships no other gods as idols.

JWs don't, if you push them hard enough, believe that Jesus was divine in the sense of YHWH. Some denominations practise de facto worship of Mary, but because they deny it they do include many genuine Christians; it all depends what goes in inside their heads. Some denominations ascribe attributes of divinity to their hierarchy, which is also borderline. Some cults assign inerrancy to their founders and add dubious stuff to the Bible.

The discussion could go on endlessly and this probably isn't the place for it.
 
Some interesting news on the Catholic Church:

http://tinyurl.com/cnfxmqc

http://tinyurl.com/cfhohru

http://tinyurl.com/85vy6ah

Tom Horn's book is very timely. You can read some of his articles at News With Views, before buying the book.

http://www.prophecyofthepopes.com/

Alfred
 
I will also point you to another series of articles on News With Views, by Dr. Dennis Cuddy, on the Power Elite and the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Cuddy/dennisA.htm

He's been on Dr. Stanley Monteith's show discussing the articles. Instead of the bickering on this blog, you might want to consider some of the important issues of the day, like the reshaping of the Middle East, the Iranian threat, the global economic crisis.

Alfred
 
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=.lindsay+williams+middle+east&oq=.lindsay+williams+middle+east&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=youtube.3...2358050.3011594.0.3011912.33.32.1.0.0.1.227.3947.7j23j2.32.0...0.0.zXliDApyD9U

several interviews with Pastor Lindsay Williams, who had two big oil inside informants, one of them now deceased was named Fromm the other still alive. Williams was favored by these men because he was so good at keeping things sane on the Alaska Pipeline, and they befriended him and talked a lot around him. Two in particular would tell him stuff, knowing it would get out. They had a plan years ago to take down all major Middle Eastern governments, especially the monarchies, but also Syria and Iran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COMzyrtEYuY ex CIA officer says attacking Iran could lead to WW 3

My concerns about enhanced thermobarics was that this would remove any inhibition on using nuclear weapons because it isn't nuclear. HOWEVER they might use nukes anyway making the thermobarics argument irrelevant, and China would have no inhibitions to begin with, having a long tradition of casual attitude about human life predating the communists.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17471 Iran's importance to Russia and China it may become a part of the SCO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRIC
Iran is already a part of the BRIC nations. The first I ever heard of this grouping, it was holding a joing military exercize somewhere in China or nearby. So it has always been intended to be more than a mere economic alliance, but economics drive war anyway.

"Various sources refer to a purported "original" BRIC agreement that predates the Goldman Sachs thesis. Some of these sources claim that President Vladimir Putin of Russia was the driving force behind this original cooperative coalition of developing BRIC countries. However, thus far, no text has been made public of any formal agreement to which all four BRIC states are signatories. This does not mean, however, that they have not reached a multitude of bilateral or even quadrilateral agreements. Evidence of agreements of this type are abundant and are available on the foreign ministry websites of each of the four countries. Trilateral agreements and frameworks made among the BRICs include the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (member states include Russia and China, observers include India) and the IBSA Trilateral Forum, which unites Brazil, India, and South Africa in annual dialogues. Also important to note is the G-20 coalition of developing states which includes all the BRICs."
 
http://tv.globalresearch.ca/2012/01/war-iran-would-mean-world-war-iii

I might add, that with China and Russia together and the huge population of China meaning a huge military, I can see no outcome but a loss for the USA and easily occupation and annexation to Russia and China of some or all of the US.

That's if this was not limited to a fight between all these in the Middle East only but taken to home ground.
 
To Anonymous @ 4:55AM

I believe that Jesus would say to all of his here on this blog that the following is HIS definition of a TRUE Christian:

Mark 12:30-31 (KJV)

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
 
First, Dorothy is a widow, and attempts to attack her based on this proposed method are pathetic. Second, she is not a kabbalist, in fact when the subject had come up here in the past she would often question the poster as to which branch of kabbalah they were speaking against. Some might think this shows support, when really it was often being shown that said poster had no clue what they were posting about. She would admit her knowledge on the subject is limited, but one could never see it for the villification process that comes from questioning the Order of the Anonamae.

Dorothy has faults as all of us do, but to just completely make up and misrepresent info about her says more about the poster than it does her. Folks here are posting positively on religions that promote mans divinity and ascension to godhead, yet no one touches it because it's wrapped in a cross. We can sure just randomly slander the only Jew openly posting here though.
 
Very well expressed, JD!!!
 
To Anon@7.56AM
From: Anon@4.55AM

I don't think you'd find a definition of a Christian on Jesus' lips, because he never said "I am God incarnate and you should worship me." He wanted people to work it out for themselves from the scriptures and his life. The verses he quoted in Mark 12 which you cite are his answer to a different question, namely What are the most important parts of Mosaic Law (which we are not under).

Let's carry on discussing this if you like; I'll do my best to keep it courteous (unlike, unhappily, some exchanges here).

Blessings in Christ.
 
"I might add, that with China and Russia together and the huge population of China meaning a huge military, I can see no outcome but a loss for the USA and easily occupation and annexation to Russia and China of some or all of the US."

Regardless of who wins such a huge war, occupation of the loser by the victor would be incredibly difficult. Read any book written by someone who understands soldiering on these scenarios.
 
Paul,

Unfortunately, I have had two full days that left me totally exhausted at night and I'm just now scrutinizing this as I should. I have defended Dorothy against you and you against Dorothy. This time, I think you remarks were well out of line. Let's let them know we are Christians by our LOVE as well as our also important DOCTRINE.

Constance
 
From the sublime to the ridiculist (all apologies to CNN's Cooper Anderson for my shameless highjacking of his comedy segments), Dorothy's husband a wealthy publisher? Don't we just wish!!!!!!!!!!

Dorothy struggles, as I struggle. Neither of us is wealthy nor married to wealth.

Constance
 
AMEN, Constance!!!!!!!

Many of us (who KNOW Dorothy's heart) thank you for your input.
 
Dorothy, thank you for your insights and research. Last year you posted a list of the ways the NA expresses itself in and impacts our everyday life which I have kept.

I am a Christian and a life-long student of the Bible, which I without doubt hold to be God's inerrant truth. But I also believe that I have an obligation to understand the world in which I live in order to be personally discerning as well as to help others understand and avoid the spiritual deceit and danger invading every aspect or our lives including the church.

I am grieved to see the extent to which the Christian church is accepting and teaching NA principles - often totally unaware of what they are doing. Christians are called to love God with their mind - we are expected to understand our culture, learn how to engage / challenge it, but know how to recognize and avoid embracing its spiritually deadly principles and lies.

From time to time I teach a Bible class and have included the research Constance, and others like yourself, have conducted to give real world application to Biblical warnings. Knowing what's happening in our world is not the same as endorsing it.

Please keep the research coming!

Dave in CA
 
"because he never said "I am God incarnate and you should worship me.""

Not quite correct. He drops hints right and left, and accepts Thomas worship "my Lord and my God" which is a phrase repeatedly said to YHWH in Psalms and ONLY to YHWH. Jesus said "I am" and "before Abraham was I am" and the full understanding about Him was probably not held by most of the Apostles until late, but it is made clear.

Also, to be Son of God is to be in the category of God like begets like.
 
To Anonymous @ 12:59 PM:

Respectfully (and with NO apologies), I stand by my belief that Jesus Christ (the Son of God) was, in fact, DEFINING what a Christian should be ~ when He Himself declared that there were no greater commandments than these. (Mark was simply delivering Jesus Christ's message.)

Mark 12:30-31 (KJV)

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
 
Dave on Ca,

Classy as always my friend.
 
Thank you Christine for the 6:53 PM post. They wanted to stone Christ for declaring His divinity.
 
some of what some people post here is true or at least partially true. But the fighting has negated the original purpose of this site. The devil is winning here. As in so many formerly Christian churches. How depressing. How much good this site formerly did.
 
Dear Anon@6.56pm,

I'd say that that is what a Christian DOES (supposing that 'God' is taken to mean the Trinity), rather than what a Christian IS. It's about identity.

Respectfully,

Anon@12.59pm
 
JD, I'm sad for your deception on this thread. Ido not know whether Dorothy is a practising kabbalist or not but to pretend that is what others were stating abou her is simply not true!

Dorothy does however support Jewish study of kabbalah, shown by her past attacks on fellow posters because of their exposing it. This is the problem. The Kabbalah is evil no matter who studies it, whether zohar or not, to pretend otherwise is a dangerous lie.

Christine, kabbalistic origins are Babylonian, and ultimately from the lie told by Satan the serpent in the Garden of Eden! This does not necessarily mean the same as stating that today's zohar for example was already compiled then, but that the evil ideas which fill it originate in the lie told by the Devil in the Garden of Eden via Ancient Babylon!

To attack Paul as being obnoxious or unkind is a bit rich considering how abrasive, rude, unloving and vicious were many of Dorothy's comments in times past.

Furthermore, it should be noted the the Greatest Commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength: this is the FIRST commandment!

The second commandment to love your neighbor as yourself is conditional to the first. You must obey God's commandments and rebuke and expose darkness wherever found! Please God rather than men.

One more thing Christine, Jesus Christ's words, which you refuse to heed, in Matthew 23: 9 let's se what the well known theologian, Barnes' in his Notes on the Bible has to say, seeing as you've ignored by reasoning previously:

"And call no man your Father ... - This does not, of course, forbid us to apply the term to our real father. Religion requires all proper honor to be shown to Him, Exodus 20:12; Matthew 15:4; Ephesians 6:1-3. But the word "father" also denotes "authority, eminence, superiority, a right to command, and a claim to particular respect." In this sense it is used here. In this sense it belongs eminently to God, and it is not right to give it to people. Christian brethren are equal. Only God has supreme authority. He only has a right to give laws; to declare doctrines that shall bind the conscience; to punish disobedience. The Jewish teachers affected that title (just like EO or Greek Orth., & RC so-called priests do today) because they seem to have supposed that a teacher formed the man, or gave him real life, and sought, therefore, to be called father. Christ taught them that the source of all life and truth was God, and they ought not to seek or receive a title which properly belongs to him."

The Apostle Paul does not refute, modify or contradict this in I Cor 4:15. Why? Because Paul does not tell or advise or encourage anyone to call him father, he merely makes the point that he, Paul, has been like a father to them: For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel (not by baptism btw but through the Gospel!).

Stop twisting Holy Scripture to suit your cause. Repent!

Respond all you like, I only hope that readers realise to obey God and His Words in Holy Scripture rather than men, and that all be like the Berean Greeks, testing all spirits and seeking out the truth diligently through the Holy Bible.

Frank.
 
the definition of father given above, leaves out love and being your fatherly family leader element. That is the proper Orthodox view of the priest, the church being a larger family.

If you are going to narrowly interpret Christ's words, "call NO MAN father," that would include your own father.

Precisely the element of hard charging overlord commander is what is targetted in this saying, and what is prohibited to Christian leadership. In Orthodoxy the term is also applied to any male monastic.

That sometimes things got too institutionalized and some titles get over the top is unfortunate and grounds for criticism. But dragging this one point up hardly reason to reject the presbyter which is the word priest derives from.

Greek for priest is hieros, and if this were the basis for the word priest in Christianity it would be some similarly derived sloppily shortened word that began with an h sound.

(unfortunately, the term hieromonk is used to refer to a monk who is also a priest, probably by people who had forgotten the origin of the term priest in presbyteros.)
 
and I don't twist Holy Scripture to suit my cause, I began where you are now, and slowly came to Eastern Orthodoxy after reading The Bible through three times and studying some things in the pre nicene fathers.

I John the Apostle repeatedly addresses the recipients as "little children," and the response to this would logically be to refer to him as father. Though we don't see their letters to him if any, his use of such phrasing sets a tone compatible with seeing him as a loving father, which in turn would predispose the persons so viewing him to so address him.
 
Baptism I think someone said something about getting rebaptized? Tell this to the Baptists who will rebaptize you if you leave one Baptist congregation and move to another city and join another or so the particular Baptist group I was a fellow traveller of explained it.

In my case, the issue was, that the baptism was done by someone of unknown provenance, beliefs and connections, and single immersion not triple, though the verbal formula was trinitarian.

So the response was, rebaptize me to make sure it was done right.

That is the issue in rebaptism, that either the group doing it originally is seen as not having grace, so there is a real good chance you are not validly baptised
at all, or that there is some flaw in the formula.

Rebaptism was prescribed for receiving some kinds of heretics, and not for other kinds, in the early canons.

RC was always considered to have valid orders and sacraments by the EO until a few hundred years ago, and this position is returning.

I had asked for a conditional rebaptism ("If you are baptized I do not baptize you but if you are not baptized I baptize you etc....") but they decided rebaptism, but did it by pouring while I stood in a tub.

The symbolism of baptism is both washing and death, burial with Christ and resurrection in Christ, which is why full immersion is normal for EO but they didn't have a large baptismal font most people there being adults and elderly who had been baptised as children, and their children.

Mere sprinkling is a valid symbolism of death, however, because when a pagan king had killed a man and his son, and forbidden his burial, he was enraged when he found out that the wife and daughter had snuck over and sprinkled some dirt on the corpses. This was enough to qualify as burial and violating the king's orders. I don't remember where I read this.

Death and rebirth or death and resurrection symbolism figures in a lot of pagan initiations also. Does that mean we got baptism from them?

My point is that pouring or sprinkling would be valid, but not desirable.
 
Once she was on my back,ergo baby carrier it felt GREAT! We took a long walk all over the neighborhood and I had absolutely ergo baby carrier uk zero shoulder and back pain like I usually get. I am now a true believer in this carrier and will be using it exclusively as ergo baby Everly grows. (The Ergo Baby also offers an infant insert for tee tiny babes available separately)
 
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