Sunday, January 04, 2009 -- Where much of the current New Age action resides

Still wondering "where in the world is Donald Keys," I found something very interesting. I went to the UNITED NATIONS' NGO data base and looked up "Planetary." I came up with a address at 322 Chestnut Street, Mt. Shasta, California. I almost dismissed all I found there, but I noticed that Planetary Citizens came up on a WiserEarth data base. WiserEarth is Paul Hawkens. I went to that and BINGO, most is there, including but certainly not limited to David Spangler's Lorian Association, Gordon Davison and Corrine McLaughlin, the Global Marshall Plan, OPERATION BLESSING of MEXICO with its Virginia Beach address. Yes, folks, that is a Pat Robertson operation. Surprise to some of you, but not to me.

Check it out. Of course, that may force the New Agers to buy new letterhead once again as they play their lovely game of now you see us, now you don't. I also saw an included organization dealing with "internet governance." I wonder what they had in mind on that?

Stay tuned!

Speaking of Pat Robertson, I posted this on the previous thread and thought it bears repeating (in case anyone missed it).

From WorldNetDaily (0l/03/09):

Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Broadcasting Network, announced at his staff's annual prayer retreat that God told him Americans would embrace socialism in 2009 "in order to relieve their pain" and that the economy would rebound under an Obama administration.

"The Lord said the economy of your nation will recover," Robertson told a group assembled at Founders Inn on the campus of Regent University in Virginia Beach, Va., a university Robertson founded.

Robertson said God also declared, "The steps taken will lead to a dramatic increase in the power of government. The people will welcome socialism in order to relieve their pain. Nothing will stand in the way of a plan by Obama to restructure the economy in the same fashion as the New Deal in the '30s."

In a follow-up interview he granted to Terry Meeuwsen, his co-host on CBN's The 700 Club, Robertson added, "It will be the largest transfer of power to Washington since the '30s. But people are willing to accept it because the pain has been so bad."
Patrick U. Petit
Incredible find Constance!! Wow!
last poster: right on the spot.
(On Patrik U. Petit/Ervin Laszlo I have written last year here, at my beast earthrise article:
With all the uncovering of the “Pat Robertsons, Rick Warrens, Father Geoghans” we all might just think we are in the movie PITCH BLACK, and the total eclipse has released the subterrainian sin which our child-like fantasy has repressed. Like so many false prophets, Robertson has predicted and has come up wanting. We “all” want signs, but the sign of a lack of love should stun the most; I suppose that I could start a blog recording the lastest betrayal of the command to love, but at last, I doubt that would get much attention.
Let me see, “if I can fathom all myteries, but have not love.” Interesting to me that love is the mystery that sent Jesus in the flesh, and without that love we would all be in the dark.
My point is not to say that the information people work so hard to get and publish is not important, it is, but why is it that there is so little love here? If not here, where? If not now, why? Reminds me of families in church; we love in the open, but wait until we get home!

Is it just me or has anyone else wondered how OBL and the Islamic terrorists have so easily thwarted our intelligence network? Maybe our “friends” may have some hand in all of that:
“Sources in China are eager not to call Pakistan any culprit. The shadow ISI (the unofficial intelligence militia of Kiani) may have received direct help and intelligence from Chinese secret military intelligence in carrying out the Mumbai massacre.”
Good morning Setterman,

You are right about the lack of love. It has been painfully felt here. The last two weeks on this blog have been extremely difficult for me. It was almost as if half the demons in hell came here to play. Pray for me -- pray for all of us -- May God have mercy on us all!

Thanks for the Patrick U. Petit reminder. Farmer had called our attention to this and their Mediterranean cruise several months ago. From the introduction to the EARTHRISE compilation:

"Creating a New Civilization Initiative
This publication is a part of the Initiative for Creating a New Civilization,
which was launched by the Goi Peace Foundation and thirteen additional likeminded
organizations at a major international forum organized in Tokyo in
November 2005. Among these organizations were the Club of Budapest, the
Club of Rome, the Institute of Noetic Sciences, Kosmos Journal, Pathways to
Peace, and the World Commission on Spirituality and Global Consciousness,
whose articles are also included in this book.
The Initiative has since brought together many more organizations and individuals
under a common vision of a sustainable and harmonious planetary
civilization. In 2006, motivated young people from all parts of the world also
joined the Initiative, launching a global youth movement for creating a new
I overheard on GMA this morning that Obama is to be on a MAJOR newschannel this week to discuss the economy. I could not help but remember the conversations about Maitreya being interviewed on a major newschannel.
I had that same thought Mary, I asked my wife if she could find/place Obama in 1982,, Hmmmm.. just curious :)
You can bet that Barack Obama, USA President Elect will be invited to be interviewed on EVERY major and EVERY minor News Channel.

I have my doubts that Obama is the one Creme referred to, although it is more than possible he will assist whoever it is Creme referred to, PROVIDING these are the days.

I still feel the action is more likely with principals in the European Union.

Google Earth: 322 Chestnut St. Mt. Shasta, CA. 96067.

The “Dream Inn” is located at 326 Chestnut, with small private homes on either side and a few small businesses across the street. Google Earth’s “street view” offers some convenient camera shots directly in front of the Dream Inn and also directly in front of 318 Chestnut St. which show the typical small town neighborhood quite well.

I’ve made my guess as to which house is most likely 322.

Next time I’m in town, I’ll have to drive by for a closer look, maybe stop in and chat with the occupants. Or, on second thought, maybe not.
From Fulfilled Prophecy site:

Javier SOLANA, EU High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP), is
travelling to the Middle East from Sunday, 4 January to Thursday, 8 January 2009 in order to
discuss the extremely serious situation in Gaza and in southern Israel with the leaders in the region
as part of the European Union’s efforts to secure a cease-fire and to facilitate humanitarian relief for
the victims of the conflict.
Mr SOLANA is travelling with the EU delegation, led by the Czech Presidency, to Egypt, Israel,
the Palestinian Territories and Jordan. Mr SOLANA will then remain in the region and will travel
on Tuesday to Syria and Lebanon for talks with leaders in Damascas and Beirut.

THANK YOU Setterman -

Just noticed your blog and was glancing through the articles. It's interesting that the Emerging Church would use the nautilus shell on its website. The nautilus shell is an oft referred to instance of the natural occurance of the "golden ratio," a number important to occult and freemasonic conceptions of sacred geometry. Maybe just a coincidence or a wink and nod for the initiated.
I was trying to give Bobby the benefit of the doubt. But when he started to talk about Israels right to exist, and Divine Providence, i was convinced he was of another spirit. I believe it was not that long ago that he left the Jehovah's Witnesses, and i do not think he had a conversion experience. Iv seen this kind of thing in others. They remain in bondage to a religious spirit, that keeps them from the truth. If so, its no wonder that he is of another spirit. Are we showing love toward him in just giving him the boot, when much meaner spirited people have been tolerated here. If nothing else, we should have perhaps witnessed Yahushuas love for him, rather than rooting out the antisemitic, and kicking him to the curb!!!!
I saw an interesting article on Drudge, in which it is claimed that Pelosi wants to rewrite some fairness laws for the Senate so as to silence and nullify the influence of the GOP in that body. The annoying thing is that every time I link to the article and begin to read it, I am cut off and some kind of ad/malware blurb pops up, offering to scan the pc to detect harmful programs. (Lucky the wife has a pretty good program already installed. Her previous laptop became unusable after I was watching old movies and tv shows via some internet sites.)
Anonymous 12:44

You mentioned the nautilus on the Emergent Church website. What website are you referring to? I don't know of any official EC website. Emergent Village uses a green leaf symbol. has no symbol on it.

Are you seeing a site dedicated to one particular church? Can you give us the url? Thanks!

Dear Shem1777,
He showed no true interest in learning here, only teaching. Intercessory prayer is a powerful and loving act of kindness. You can be assured that there are many here who will be praying for him, myself included.
Only God can soften a heart towards Him. Hence the power of prayer.

Just my thoughts,
Dear Setterman,
Thanks for sharing your heart. Your words ring honest and true.

Sharing your hope,
To Shem (12:46 PM)

Yes, you do have a point. After all, "mean spirited" Joyce has been allowed to continue to post on this blog.

Joyce, over these many months, has probably done more to further the New Age agenda by pitting Protestant Evangelicals against Jews and Catholics than anyone else on this blog.

After her "drive by verbal shootings" - she quietly steps aside to survey the mess - as they all go for each other's throats!

And Constance, the brilliant researcher, fails to see this particular "perspective" where so many of us SEE it quite clearly!

Then, when the Jews and the Catholics have had enough and come out swinging - they are labeled "demons" who show no love.

This would be almost funny, if it were not so ironic and tragic!

I guess if Adloph Hitler were alive today, Constance would defend his anti-Semitic rants as:
"Well, while I disagree with Adolph, these are his opinions, and he does actually believe these things he posts. So, what's the problem, folks? Can't we all just get along and be civil to one another?"
I visited the WiserEarth website - did a search for Operation Blessing. WOW.!!!..

More Operation Blessing listings were listed than I had time to visit. All with the Virginia Beach address.
Since this is a blog oriented towsrd EXPOSING the New Age Movement and their agenda, here is another reminder:

The New Age leaders like Alice Bailey went after Jews and Catholics in their writings. H. G. Wells wrote books attacking both and he was a member of the Fabian group connnected with the early leaders of the movement in England. The Nazis went after the Jews first and attempted to destroy any Catholic presence in Germany. The current New Age movement is a resurgence of Nazism. In the effort to destroy monotheism as a competing form of control, Jews were to be destroyed first because they were the smallest group. Catholics next because they represented a competing power base. The Protestants were last because they could be infiltrated best and used against the other two groups. They were to be destroyed after their usefulness was over and displaced on land for future Aryan communities.

You said,
"The Protestants were last because they could be infiltrated best and used against the other two groups. They were to be destroyed after their usefulness was over and displaced on land for future Aryan communities."

Please provide proof that the Protestants can be infiltrated BEST and used against the other groups. Although I have not taken an aggressive posture before, I take this personally.
To Anonymous (3:01):

Just to clarify - I am NOT Dorothy!!!

I saved this impressive content which someone had posted in the past.

Also, WHY would you take it personally? Protestants, Catholics and Jews are ALL being targeted by the New Age Movement. What happens in the future will be PROOF enough for all of us!!!
Terri -- I was referring to the picture captured on Ms. Cumbey's own website. Here is the link:
To Anonymous 2:52

If you have my book, A PLANNED DECEPTION, there is documentation for Hitler's planned strategy of going after the Jews first because they were the smallest and weakest. Then the Catholics, then the Protestants.

Hitler despised all of Christianity as "Jewish based religions."

I have been posting in reply to Bobby Garner's ones over on the immediate past thread today. I thought of cutting and pasting them here as it was a lot of work for me on time which I did not have, but you might want to go there and read those.

I was pleased that JD could make it to my church yesterday. I have to apologize again since there is more than one David in the church. It was a bit of an unusual service. The Sunday after New Year's is usually low in attendence.

I will say to my church's defence is that the new age influences have yet to divert members from faith in Jesus. Our senior pastor wouldn't go that far. However, I think it could lead to something more, especially if he retires. My wife and I will stick with the church as much as we can, especially since we spent so much time teaching them how to deal with my autistic son.

Next time we can plan lunch. My wife is a skeptic of the new age movement and end-time prophecies, even more than myself.

David in B.C.
Please go find my remarks indicating that I "started to talk about Israels right to exist, and Divine Providence"

Just copy it and paste it in here somewhere, and tell us where you found it please.
Hi Constance,

Re:Hitler despised all of Christianity as "Jewish based religions."

That is exactly correct. A book exists entitled THE PERSECUTION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE THIRD REICH published around 1941.

I know the book exists because I have personally seen it - having borrowed it many years ago from my local city library. It is also still in print.

The people who compiled the information for the book explained that while they were focusing on the persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich, another book would need to be written in order to describe the persecution of authentic Protestants who had not defected to the so-called "German Christian" camp.

In fact the famous "Flossenberg martyrs" included a Lutheran pastor named Deitrich Bonhoeffer the author of the book THE COST OF DISCIPLESHIP which I have in my personal library.
Bobby just plain doesn't get it -- or else he does from a perspective hopefully none of the rest of us have adopted!
Here in Garner's own words are his views of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. As I suspected, he attempts to legitimise them.
Dear Anonymous 2:24 (to Shem)

Would you like some Brie
with that whine ?

I'm ( I suppose ) an evangelical
Protestant. Joyce has never made me
feel any animosity towards Jews,
or Catholics, or any one else.
If she and Susanna want to
have strong disagreement and
hash out doctrinal differences
that's their business. They seem
to have done just that without
any immature hysterics like
your comment.

What a load of hogwash !
To Paul (7;44 PM):

Re: "Joyce has never made me
feel any animosity towards Jews,
or Catholics, or any one else."






I would like to see Bobby Garner crawl back under his rock given my present level of understanding of his work and his evasion of legitimate questions. I don't consider Joyce and Paul in the same category, even though I have had my fair share of differences with them.

Now that I have read Niki Raapana's blogspot and attitudes on Israel, I think I may have jumped the gun there as well, although there are LEGITIMATE concerns about the Communitarian Network. I think Niki's erroneous assumptions may be based on not knowing Martin Buber's close affiliations with Jew hating New Agers and her own anti-clerical world views.

I sent Niki Raapana a detailed email on this and have had no reply. However, this might be due to her tent dwelling in the extremely harsh Alaskan winter.

Didn't we all like it much better back when we were having 'global warming'?!

To Constance (8:34):

Well, Constance I guess you and I are viewing both Joyce and Paul from a different "perspective."

If you were to go back and really study all of their posts over many previous threads, you might just gain a new perspective.
I would have to turn in my license to practice law to read all of Joyce's posts -- but I think that because she has theological differences on Trinity (with which I profoundly disagree), Christian duty to follow Jewish ordinances, quarrels with Catholic creeds and doctrines, etc, etc. do constitute anti-Semitism. Paul also appears to have somewhat of a wry sense of humor and we have others who sometimes take literally what he did not mean literally.

At least that's how I currently see it.

TYPO because I'm sitting in on a meeting -- I do NOT see Joyce's theological differences as constituting anti-Semitism. If her belief in Jesus makes her a fake Jew, I disagree with that as well. Joyce has made some valuable contributions even though there are some who would never say a good word about her.

By the way, where has Joyce been the last few days through this brouhaha?

Since you only consider the views of someone bad if they are considering murdering someone, why are you bothering with the New Age movement? They aren't out to kill people. When did Tolle say he wanted to kill anyone.

As shown by Len, Joyce was not talking about "her religion" when she was posting. She was deliberately distorting what Jews practiced and believed. And she did it for month after month. Perhaps you should have read her long postings. We did.
To Constance (8:54 PM & 8:58 PM):

1) Well, Constance - calling Catholics "liars" (as Paul has done several times in the past)is not my idea of a "wry sense of humor."

2) And, as I stated in my earlier 2:24 PM post:

"Joyce, over these many months, has probably done more to further the New Age agenda by pitting Protestant Evangelicals against Jews and Catholics than anyone else on this blog.

After her 'drive by verbal shootings' - she quietly steps aside to survey the mess - as they all go for each other's throats!"


So, it's not about Joyce's Messianic Christianity.

Constance, you are a brilliant researcher and a gift from God to all of us learning from you every single day.

However, it is exasperating to many (not just me) that you either can't or won't see through what else is going on right under your nose.
I have been trying very hard to stay out of this mess, but I realize I can't stay silent any longer.

Constance, at 4:50 you said:

"To Anonymous 2:52

If you have my book, A PLANNED DECEPTION, there is documentation for Hitler's planned strategy of going after the Jews first because they were the smallest and weakest. Then the Catholics, then the Protestants.

Hitler despised all of Christianity as "Jewish based religions."


Being that anonymous poster to whom you replied above, I initially was going to reply, and then thought better of it. But now I realize I need to speak up here. Here's my response to your response to me:

Thanks Constance. I understand that. My question to the anonymous poster of 2:52, who also seems to be the anonymous poster of 2:24, is why that person feels that the Protestants are being used against the Catholics and Jews and how. If the anonymous poster is going to make accusations like that, then please show valid examples. I simply asked for some verification indicating that the Protestants were indeed the provocateurs, as I don't see it that way.

Anonymous 2:24 also said,
"Joyce, over these many months, has probably done more to further the New Age agenda by pitting Protestant Evangelicals against Jews and Catholics than anyone else on this blog."

I have not seen evidence of Joyce either furthering the New Age agenda or pitting Evangelicals against the Jews and Catholics here. Au contraire. I was looking for evidence that the Evangelicals have been antagonist against the Catholics and Jews here, especially under the instigation of Joyce, and have not seen it. While Joyce herself has a distinct set of beliefs within the framework of Messianic Judaism, they have certainly been independent beliefs. Joyce is her own person. She is not the pied piper signing on initiates who happen to be Evangelicals. The problems that some here have had with Joyce should NOT involve the Evangelicals.

The hatred of Joyce on this blog has caused much damage. Anyone who has ever agreed with her, has been targeted. I for one am a little tired of hearing that it's been the other way around. The way that Young Grasshopper was treated here a few days ago, is a good example. I have yet to see an apology from the person who attacked her .

That is why I asked the anonymous poster for examples, as there are certainly plenty that go the other way.

Whether Paul has called Catholics liars or not, is not something I can verify. However, I have heard people being called many insulting names here recently, and the assault was supposedly coming from the Catholics and directed at Joyce and certain Protestants here. I can give many examples such as "We Catholics are not going to take it anymore!"

I have very recently come to believe that it was not the Catholics at all who were doing the name calling. Nor was it the Protestants. It is the same person who is now attacking Constance and Paul tonight.

If the anonymous poster has a problem with Joyce, contact her directly and deal with it. Otherwise, ignore her. The rest of us here are sick and tired of being drawn into these disagreements that have nothing to do with us!
Anon. 10:08

I happen to agree with you 100%. I have read everyone of Joyce's comments and although they are lengthy they are neither anti-Semitic nor anti-Catholic.
She stated what she believed in and gave verses from scripture to back it up. She didn't name call or stoop to the other nasty tactics of those who didn't like her. For that she gained my respect.

She did try to hold her own against those who were offended by her but the reality is they weren't offended by Joyce but by the message she brought.

I kept being surprised that those who didn't like her kept responding to her. My thoughts were "if you don't like what is being said, ignore it. Move on to more important things."

This blog is very insightful and Constance does a lot of amazing research. I always look forward to reading what she has to say and then what others have to say as well. The only glitch is the angry fist shaking. But now I just skip over those and go to the good stuff. =0)
To Anonymous (10:08 PM):

Since this is not between you and me, I suggest you stay out of it.

However, if you insist on "examples" - all you have to do is READ the previous threads going bsck many months. (I'm not going to do the work for you.)

No one "hates" Joyce. Many of us are just fed up with her "poisoning" this blog by her non-stop and well documented ATTACKS on our traditonal Jewish and Catholic faiths - day in a day out - month after month.

A TRUE "Christian" (Messianic or otherwise) does not spend all of his/her time BASHING another's religios faith. For whst purpose?

And anyone who would DEFEND such behavior needs to take a long look in the mirror and ask himself/herself why they would align themselves with and/or encourage such behavior.
Can readers here understand that Catholics recognize Catholic bashing and Jews recognize antisemitism better than Protestants?

Thanks once again for one of the best resources on the net. A must read every day!!

Speaking of internet governance - have you come across

SCOTTS VALLEY, Calif. – January 16, 2006 – ManyOne Networks ( today released the pilot version of a next-generation multimedia Internet medium called the Digital Universe (, which over the next several months and years will become a zone of high-quality, advertising-free content for the public. Powering the Digital Universe, the ManyOne platform will provide reusable—or syndicated—Web content and Internet services to partner organizations of all kinds, ultimately equipping them to serve their constituencies with superior information services at lower costs. Revenue from subscribers is shared around the partner network, enabling a new democratic financial model for content and services based upon syndication.

A world-class team of executives and staff from USWeb, Microsoft, UTStarcom, HP, Sony, AOL/Netscape, Nokia and Lockheed have joined forces over the past three years to build this unique enterprise. Further, ManyOne has been carefully designed with a socially- responsible ownership, governance and advisory architecture to ensure that it can play a pivotal role in the ethical evolution of the Internet and the World Wide Web.

About The ManyOne Foundation:
Among others, individuals presently committed to join the Board include:

Paul Hawken
Maurice Strong
Hazel Henderson
Ashok Khosla
Jane Goodall
Muhammad Yunus
Maybe Joyce honestly thinks you are going to hell unless she warns you! Wouldn't you be insulted if she thought you were in real danger and failed to warn you? Attacks on religious belief are not the same as the vile spawned by Bobby Garner and Bro. Eric who called for extreme marginalization and or even extermination (Bro Eric's call for killing Catholic priests). If we are all going to ay "BLESSED BE T H Y GOD" rather than "Blessed be my God," the whole New Age Movement is out there waiting for you. In the New Age, per Alice Bailey, the ONLY sin will be the sin of separation. Criticisms of religious belief do not constitute antisemitism and/or racism.

Calls for physical elimination of religious adherents do.

Gosh, all the USUAL SUSPECTS! Paul Hawken, Maurice Strong, Jane Goodall, et al!

To Anonymous 9:11

You evidently have not read the New Age books I have. What motivated me is that they were talking about killing living, breathing, life-loving people.

Alice Bailey:

"Let light and love and power and DEATH fulfill the purpose of the Coming One . . .

Barbara Marx Hubbard:

"We come to bring death, we do this for the sake of the Planet . . . the riders of the pale horse are about to pass among you . . . they will separate the wheat from the chaff . . . this is the most painful hour in earth's history."

Friends of the Earth, Global 2000 -- REDUCE EARTH'S POPULATION BY 2/3


Nice try, but I'm sticking by my guns (now please don't take me literally on the guns, remembering that I personally am partially descended from a line of peace loving Quakers who left that denomination when he leaned toward the Theosophists in the 1920s') My Quaker grandmother went on to be a Church of the Nazarene Sunday School teacher for the next 50 years of her life which reached nearly 100.

Here is an interesting portal :)

Scary place!!
I saw more mean spiritedness towards Joyce than from her!

To Constance (11:22 PM):

Well, as a Catholic, I believe that I may be going to Heaven a lot sooner than Joyce - if for no other reason than Joyce's refusal to honor the command of Jesus to:
"Judge not lest ye be judged."

Also, a couple of us thought it was pretty "VILE" when a poster (on a previous thread) suggested that we Catholics should all be "thrown into FEMA camps."
To Constance (11:32 PM):

Well if DEFENDING ourselves against the non-stop and well documented anti-Jewish and anti-Catholic posts over these many months is your definition of "mean spiritedness towards Joyce" - then I guess you're RIGHT!!!

I am always amused when I read how the Protestants get all huffy, bent-out-of-shape and thin-skinned whenever ANYTHING is said about them.

Welcome to Constance's blog - home of the double standard!!!

None is so blind as those who can not (or WILL not) "see."
Yesterday the pond, today a takeover of the Internet
Constance-It's been a very long time since I posted here because of the accrimony. You are free to do as you wish here, but your last posting belies your fine work. "Criticisms of religious belief do not constitute anti-semitism and/or racism." I guess you take the perspective that sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me. As a lawyer, kowever, you know that words can do violence like yelling fire in a crowded theater. When you accept/encourage those to post here who consort/attract virulent anti-semites, you turn this blog into carrion that allows flies a place to lay eggs that hatch into nasty maggots.The fact you defend those whose words are lies/ignorance based on hate (and that is what it is), you enable. Dorothy has been your friend for 27 years, yet you let Joyce destroy that friendship with her proselitizing/demonizing of anyone whose faith does not conform to her strange hatefilled ideology which has nothing to do with the New Age. Then you unleash Niki and Bobby Garner along with Carrie Tomko who attracts Marcus Pinay, a world class anti-semite. Maggots everywhere here now. Oh, but they are just a few critics to you who deserve a forum. Words? Yes, Constance, they are sticks and stones.
As a lawyer, I know about the First Amendment to the USA Constitution!

Looking at this thing objectively, Constance saw more nastiness from Dorothy to Joyce than vice versa -- Joyce was long winded. Dorothy was short and NASTY!
And Tolle, and Harmon, and Hawken, and Obama, and other New Age leaders who have been criticized in your material? Are you now limiting your criticism of the New Age movement to Bailey and Hubbard to fit your new standard? It is easy to criticize haters of Judaism and Catholicism who are at a distance. Much harder when they have a friendly face.
12:01 seems to be filled with plenty of vile of his own! Speaking of maggots and hate speech!
Do you expect Constance to practice law by day and edit on line without pay the New Age encyclopedia of everything to reply to drivel in the comments section by night and then lambast her for not writing lengthy articles!

You folk are disgusting! Be reasonable!
Sure wish Joyce, Rudi, and Carrie would come back . . . atmosphere was a lot lighter and nicer when they were around than this crowd!
Maybe you all kept Constance so busy with this drivel that she didn't have full time to read Niki and Bobby as fully as she might otherwise have . . . Happy you are all perfect!
To Anonymous (12:38 AM):

Yes, and Constance has also been so busy that she hasn't even had time to read Joyce's posts as "she might otherwise have" either.

So, she ends up depending on her Protestant Evangelical "buddies" to blow in her ear and give her their "slanted view" of Joyce.
While we're at it - let's go dig Adolph Hitler up and bring him to the blog to post!!!

When the day comes that all of us (Jews, Catholics, Protestants) are ALL in those KBR "holding centers" together - maybe then the Protestants will get their nose out of the air and stop feeling so superior to the Jews and the Catholics!!!
Hi Green Agenda,
Thank you for bringing up the topic of ManyOne and the Digital Universe. I first became aware of it last fall while I was looking into “International Year of Astronomy” (IYA2009). I wrote a little about it here back in the October 9, 2008 comments in case you want to compare notes. I was trying to find out about
The International Year of Astronomy. IYA2009 is supported by eleven Cornerstone Projects.
It was while searching for additional information about one of the “Cornerstone Projects” called,
‘The Portal To The Universe’, that I found another website which featured an announcement for IYA2009, as well as a prominent listing for ‘The Portal To The Universe’ (the Cornerstone Project ‘Portal To The Universe website came on line January 1, 2009 - not much to read yet) The website I was directed to was called “Cosmos Portal”.

“The Cosmos Portal is working in concert with the “IAU Portal to the Universe” project to provide authoritative and trustworthy information about astronomy and space science, combining scientific review with the power of Web-based collaboration.”

I became more intrigued when I found the “Cosmos Portal” is accessed through another website called “Digital Universe”. Both Cosmos Portal and Digital Universe are “Empowered By MANYONE” I was stunned when I saw who the founders and board members are for MANYONE FOUNDATION and deducted there may more behind this global UNESCO/International Astronomical Union initiative and United Nations declared global
event than simple stargazing.

So, I'm with you. ManyOne and the Digital Universe are important to keep an eye on. They have got the 'best of the best' technology experts involved. Lawrence Lessig joined the Advisory Board in March 2006. (Founder Creative Commons, Stanford Law Professor, Founder Stanford Center for Internet and Society, He has had a hand in many projects related to the “Wikimedia” empire and has keynoted events with Jimmy Wales. He’s also a huge Obama supporter. Joe Firmage, Bernie Haisch, and Larry Sanger are the founders of the Digital Universe. Larry Sanger was the co-founder of Wikipedia with Jimmy Wales. Bernie Haisch is a astrophysicist and is listed as a “luminary link” on the Institute of Noetic Sciences website. I'd be very interested in hearing more from you on this topic. Maybe I should go check your blog!

These people are networked so thoroughly it is impossible to document all the interconnected strands of the web. Didn't take me long to figure out, that's what they mean by MANYONE! Here are a couple links I've found helpful for keeping tract of a few of some current events on the
WE,The World calendar for 2009. -Rudi
Thanks for your thoughtful remarks. I haven't been able to join in in the last few days, but I think you probably have a little more accurate view of where I'm coming from than some of my accusers. I would not try to presume I know who is going to hell, because only God knows the minds of people and He is the only judge, but I do actually have an incredible reverence for God's Word and when I read it I try to read only what's there and not add or subtract from it..but sometimes our interpretations 2000 years after the fact can be distorted by the events of history. This is why today, there are still scholars debating what Paul was talking about. Findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls and collaboration by Jewish and Christian scholars has shed light on many things.

It's always easier if we can fit our theology into a nice neat box, but that doesn't mean that it is true and accurate. Some of us have a hunger to search and seek after truth when the pat explanations we've been given over the centuries don't add up. The history of anti-semitism has caused me to ask many questions. You begin to see that our translations are not always 100% unbiased. Not only that, but as human beings we have a tendency to cling to what is comfortable and familiar. That doesn't always make it right.

Since God is not a God of confusion, I have to assume for example as He says, He is echad ( composite unity) that I can only understand Him the way He presents Himself. Since I believe that God is inseparable, I cannot ascribe to Him a doctrine that doesn't describe Him as He describes Himself. Man is always seeking ways to define God, so this is the problem with some of the doctrines that man comes up with . I believe God is one, and He is Father, Word ( who became flesh) Spirit, but I cannot separate that into "three persons" because then I divide God, and He is very specific that He does not do this.

I know many Jews who are coming to believe in Yeshua today, and one of the biggest obstacles to them coming to faith has been some of the ways Christianity has described God. Granted there are many Jews that still don't believe, but many of the ones who do, when they start reading what has traditionally been called The New Testament Scriptures, they have a different understanding of what was being said because they understand many of the words of Yeshua and His disciples hebraically . Some of the terminology that is used and some of the things that are said by Paul are also widely misunderstood because of our cultural and religious biases.

My heart is to see the body, be echad ( one). Realistically I know that this won't happen until the restoration of all things, but I do believe with all my heart that we have a responsibility to study the Scriptures and search to understand even things that seem difficult. Scripturally, I know that God is not finished with Israel. Anyone who reads the last few chapters in Deuteronomy and all of the Prophets and the Apostles will understand this.

When I analyze this situation, I try to look at the historical reasons for the current misunderstandings and divisions, which sovereignly God permitted to exist, but since we are entering into days of fulfillment of the prophecies, I try to look in the Scriptures to see how God is going to bring us into the true unity in Him. Obviously, the New Age has a counterfeit version of this. Satan always mimics what God is doing but perverts it. We know this.

If I offend people on the blog in the process of trying to uncover truth, I honestly don't mean to and I apologize for any unintentional hurt.. I tend to have strong views on things and am not shy about expressing them, and maybe I can learn to be more tactful in the way I express things, but when you are saying something controversial no matter what you do sometimes, it will make some people unhappy because they may also have strong views.

I have walked through this process for many years now, so I suppose it's not fair to expect others to understand that.. It's not like I woke up one day and decided this.. I just followed the principal seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you. We, as believers in God and hopefully seekers of truth should never be satisfied to stop searching the Scriptures.

God has always revealed Himself progressively and so the closer we get to the return of Yeshua, the more we will understand exactly what the Scriptures are trying to tell us, those of us who continue to listen to His voice and not close our minds..

Yeshua, on the road to Emmaus "opened the eyes" of the two disciples to all that was said about Him in the the Torah and Prophets...They could not fully grasp it at first and I believe He does that with us too. I think the reason God didn't not want us to make images that represent Him is because He cannot be defined in our limited human terms and He does not want us to "give Him another face" and as humans we sometimes do this..( the golden calf is a perfect example).

So I've been looking into the Project Blue beam and the possiblity of it being used along with the new digital t.v.'s..

Does anyone know where the phrase "The night of a thousand stars came from?"
Hi Rudi,

Yeah, I've been poking around the 'portals' - loaded with New Age garbage.

I haven't done much on my site lately. Only one new article this month:

I've been keeping a very close eye on Obama's cabinet picks though. Talk about a bunch of climate alarmists! Met your new Sec. of Energy:

Holdren is even scarier:

2009 is the year!! A global climate deal, a possible new global financial order - global governance in the making.
p.s. also been researching soros, obama, center for american progress, podesta, ufo disclosure

interesting stuff!!

I left a message in the last thread for you.

Actually since there are so many posts in the last thread I am reposting it here.

Thanks to DavidinBC for allowing my wife and I to visit with him and his family. Both Cassie (my wife) and I thoroughly enjoyed our visit. I also appreciate the prior warning given to me about his church and their message. If it had not been for this I may not have noticed the christmas tree adorned with occultic symbols such as the symbol for mother earth, the quartered circle, and the triquetra as well as a few others. It was an eye opening experience to say the least. I look forward to future visits with Dave and his family. I also would like to reiterate to Dave that if he needs assistance with anything at all not to hesitate to call me.

Joyce wrote:
"Granted there are many Jews that still don't believe, but many of the ones who do, when they start reading what has traditionally been called The New Testament Scriptures, they have a different understanding of what was being said because they understand many of the words of Yeshua and His disciples hebraically . Some of the terminology that is used and some of the things that are said by Paul are also widely misunderstood because of our cultural and religious biases."

Culturally and religiously biased Jews are too stupid to understand the language used 2,000 years ago. If they were smart, they would convert.

Did I get that right?
Joyce wrote:
"God has always revealed Himself progressively and so the closer we get to the return of Yeshua, the more we will understand exactly what the Scriptures are trying to tell us, those of us who continue to listen to His voice and not close our minds.."

Translated, "Jews have closed minds."

Nope, that's not offensive.
and so it begins....

Britain 'must set population limit to safeguard national security' say experts

Britain must set a maximum population level if it is to avoid destroying the environment and putting national security at risk, say experts.
Having written this post on 11/16/08 I was surprised to see the follow-up post 01/06/09 .
More lies concerning global warming. Lies and dam-ed lies.
Oldmanoftheski said: “Is there any doubt that we are seeing the beginning of the next Great Inquisition? Fundamentalist “Jews” and “Christians” and “Moslems” are indeed being accused of intolerance.” Where are Moslems tolerant? Those who have designed this tension using Moslems may have a tiger by the tail, and I think (“I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. . .”Rev.20:4) is the Moslem influence in the tribulation.

How interesting that in Islam the chief means of killing the enemy is beheading. How likewise interesting is the word "beheaded" mentioned when it comes to Christian martyrs detailed in the Book of Revelation. God's revealed prophecies speak specifically of the Christians being beheaded for their faith in the End Times. Is this coincidental wording? I don't think so.. I think the beheading passages point directly to the Islamic determination to rule the world by beheading all non-Muslims.

The Anon(s) who keeps reflecting their hypersensitivity might want to keep a closer eye on the REAL enemy; Christians might want to reflect on what this will mean to Christians who follow us into the wrath to come.
I don't recall ever seeing this information being posted here. I may have missed it though. You ALL may find it very interesting!

This is the link to the beginning of the Rainbow Swastika study...
Another site with information on Jews and the New Age...
Hi Joyce,

Welcome back -- but I have to tell you that I am in agreement with your right to disagree but in profound disagreement on some of your scriptural interpretations, most particularly denial of the three-in-one -- the Trinity. Please remember 1 John 2:22:

"Who is a liar but he that denieth Jesus is the Christ. He is antichrist that denieth the Father AND the Son."

Jesus definitely told us that unless he went the Comforter -- the Holy Spirit -- could not come. Jesus admonished that his disciples should baptize in all three names.

Now you may claim you see error in Catholic doctrine, but you must admit that with notable apostate exceptions (and some of those were subsequently excommunicated, e.g. Matthew Fox) that they do have straight:

1. The One God -- the Father almighty.
2. Jesus Christ, HIS ONLY SON
3. Conceived of the Holy Spirit and born to the Virgin Mary

4. For us men and our salvation came down from heaven
5. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
6. He suffered, died and was buried.
7. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures.
8. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the father.
9. He will come again to judge the living and the dead and his Kingdom will have no end.
10. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life.
11. Who proceeds from the father and son.

The Catholics definitely have those doctrinal points safe and there is sound scriptural authority for each and every.
Some of your interpretations are much shakier in my opinion.

One last point. I am so very happy it is God judging us and not us here judging each other.


I think this has applications here -
Patent for improved holographic beaming technology (abstract is long, and rather involved)

Not too long ago, someone posted a link regarding moving images projected on city buildings.

Perhaps this is part of the technology that will make the images appear even more realistic.

I have NEVER called Jews or Catholics liars.

Anonymous 9:29, you're a researcher;
how about a link
to where I said anything remotely like
China and World Harmony City

Info on World Harmony as savior of future
To Joyce (5:30 AM):
Re: "Culturally and religiously biased Jews are too stupid to understand the language used 2,000 years ago. If they were smart, they would convert.

Did I get that right?"


Global Harmony Association info--

To Paul (8:30 AM):

Re: "I have NEVER called Jews or Catholics liars."




China and World Harmony City

Info on World Harmony as savior of future
To Constance (8:01 AM):

I want to thank you for your very balanced post to Joyce.

Some of us have been growing very concerned that if Bobby Garner was being strongly discouaged to stop his inflamatory comments -- then Joyce should also be strongly discouraged to stop her inflamatory comments.
To Setterman (6:18 AM):
Re: "The Anon(s) who keeps reflecting their hypersensitivity might want to keep a closer eye on the REAL enemy; Christians might want to reflect on what this will mean to Christians who follow us into the wrath to come."



Dorothy does not like to hear about "the end times." But given the current tenseness and just plain crude rudeness on this board, it sounds remarkably like Matthew 24 warnings of what the climate in those days would be. Is this board a microcosm of what is happening across the board? If so, we all need to gravely say our prayers and ask for divine mercy!

In regards to Joyce's expression of belief in "progressive revelation . . ." I would CAUTION her and all others:

1. "Progressive revelation" is a key New Age tenet and one that will be used to include a provision that an "all caring God" sends "progressive revelation" and a new messenger for the New Age."


As I recall my scripture: "I am the Lord, I change not."

I believe God can speak to us anytime and anyway He chooses; HOWEVER, the other side does that almost all the time and we have to pray for discernment AND test it against Scripture. Without getting into the Catholic Protestant debate on Sola
Scriptura, here's how the old Church fathers sorted all out in compiling the Bible --


Constance (9:34 AM):

It's OK to share your concerns out of love for your long time friend, Dorothy of 26 plus years.

It's NOT OK for Joyce to post inflammatory comments directed at Jews and Catholics day after day - week after week - month after month. ("Judge not lest ye be judged.")

Ultimately, what transpires between Dorothy and God is HER business and no one else's.

I would like to remind all of you that God, Our Father in Heaven made the decision to send his only Son, Jesus Christ to be born on this earth as a JEW for a reason. The Jews are truly "God's chosen people."

I will say this - that Dorothy has a much bigger and kinder HEART than is evident by some of the "cold hearts" who have posted on this blog recently.

I thought this was interesting.
You said "Attacks on religious belief are not the same as the vile spawned by Bobby Garner and Bro. Eric who called for extreme marginalization and or even extermination..."

Throwing me in with "Bro Eric" (a man I never heard of), insinuating that I also "called for extreme marginalization and or even extermination" is an outrageous and unsustainable claim.

Your trailing comment in parenthesis is peripheral to the statement, and not part of it as every lawyer knows, and most readers are aware.

Maybe I should post my cautionary note here for you and your readers:

"WARNING: Small minds may be overly challenged by the concepts presented here.
If you have feelings of insecurity, or if you are subject to anxiety attacks, or prone
to fits of uncontrollable rage, please consult your mental health professional before proceeding.
To Bobby Garner (10:09 AM):

I don't think that ANY of us on this board have "small" minds. We are, however, getting pretty fed up with your rather "large" ego and your arrogance!!!

Just WHO do you think you are???
To Bobby,

I thought you said a few days ago you were not going to comment anymore?
Thanks for the warning, Bobby!!!

I loved reading a portion of the second paragraph of your "Mission and Disclaimer" statement:

"This is the Website of Bobby Garner. I feel its my duty to alert the reader to the fact that I have never been declared mentally sane by any authority."

"I don't think that ANY of us on this board have "small" minds."

If the shoe doesn't fit, please don't try to wear it!
"I thought you said a few days ago you were not going to comment anymore?"

I admit it, but this is just too much fun.
"Thanks for the warning, Bobby!!!"

And you carry your certificate in your pocket, may I suppose?

Where do you go to get one of those things anyway?
To Bobby,

"I thought you said a few days ago you were not going to comment anymore?"

I admit it, but this is just too much fun.


So if people will quit commenting about you, the fun will be gone?

Therefore, please the rest of you quite answering him and maybe this will all stop!
Re: my last comment addressed to Constance:

innuendo - an indirect (and usually malicious) implication

"An innuendo is an equivocal allusion so framed as to point distinctly at something which is injurious to the character or reputation of the person referred to.

An insinuation turns on no such double use of language, but consists in artfully winding into the mind imputations of an injurious nature without making any direct charge."
- Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Would a lawyer weave both of these tactics into the same statement accidentally?

With what may we easily associate "artfully winding into the mind imputations"?

artifice - artifice n. An artful or crafty expedient; a stratagem.

imputation - a statement attributing something dishonest

stratagem - an elaborate or deceitful scheme contrived to deceive or evade;

deceive - to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid, to practice deceit, to give a false impression.
Anon 11:09:
"So if people will quit commenting about you, the fun will be gone?"

Thats a very astute question.

Oh... I don't know..., Maybe Constance can help you with that.
The religious controversy present on this blog is one that will not be solved by Constance or the respondents. Perhaps it is a reflection of what drives each of us away from each other into our particular religion.

Such behavior at play here unwittingly reinforces the Ecumenical Goals of Peace which the UN and AOC are exploiting on the World Stage.

I fear this for this blog which I have often visited and enjoyed over the last few years.

Perhaps the unifying focus to expose the New Age Agenda and NWO has been shattered with the "he said", "she said", "I believe", foul play between the regulars.

Please Constance, police and edit those who persist to continue to exploit your blog elsewhere where they can promote their opinions ad nauseum and limit responses to the discussion of your careful and excellent research.

"Can this blog be saved"

I hope so!!!
As I presently see it, unless you can excerpt and direct me to appropriate sites, there was OVER-REACTION to Joyce. Several said things much harsher to Joyce than were said to them. Joyce expressed opinions that many, myself included, did not necessarily like. That is not hate talk in and of itself!

And one real and present danger -- the one that led to Krystallnacht and practically all other forms of mob violence is a herd mentality. I'm not removing somebody just because nobody likes her. I had too much personaly bullying upon myself over the years -- in grade school and then when I was fighting the New Age Movement practically unaided except for Dorothy and her moral and research support -- I am not going to succumb to mob mentalities.

To 12:15 p.m. Well chosen words and THANKS!

To Bobby Garner:

I note that you have not replied to my questions to you on the last thread:

1. Why are you saying the same things about the Jews as Alice Bailey said?

2. What specifically is there about Agenda 21 that concludes you to believe it is a Zionist plot rather than the clear New Age one that it is?

Why don't you get your jollies answering those?

To Green Agenda:

Thanks for your kind remarks. I went to your website and it is a most impressive resource. As soon as I get time to edit, I will add a link to your page from mine.


1. Why are you saying the same things about the Jews as Alice Bailey said?

2. What specifically is there about Agenda 21 that concludes you to believe it is a Zionist plot rather than the clear New Age one that it is?
I thought I did answer these, and at one point, directed you to the locations. Nevertheless...

1. a: Alice Bailey said it not me. b: I have merely stated the obvious that not only will it happen, but also how and by whom.

2. I do not believe that Agenda 21 is a Zionist plot, nor have I ever said any such thing. Check with your esteemed contributors. They have said many things that are simply not true.

The New Age is not a spontaneous thing which stands on it own legs. It is rather a significant component of something even larger, and far more sinister.

I have elaborated all of these points more fully on my 288 page website. Go there and enter the keywords in my site search tool (not Google or Yahoo), and read what I have said.

Please differentiate my comments from those I quote from other sources.
Interesting article!!
Hi Constance,

Re: Without getting into the Catholic Protestant debate on Sola
Scriptura, here's how the old Church fathers sorted all out in compiling the Bible --


Indeed....without getting into the Rule of Faith debate, I can reply unequivocally that you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!
Henry Kissinger Calls For a New World Order

URL to article:
Just a brief note: I have been sleeping in the corner of my husband's hospital room for 12 days. Tomorrow we move to a hospice. I had no idea that grief could destroy faith like this. Faith comes and goes, prayer is constant. I pray for the rapture to keep us together, if not, may he be very happy in Heaven and may my
It's been 40 years of marriage. A lot of struggle but a lot of love.

Well, we always knew Robertson preached a gospel of avoiding pain, which is all right if you can also follow the Lord. Hard to do both.

I will probably be out of touch in the hospice, unless my son gets me a code to use there.


I am so very sorry for your troubles, Mariel.

I will certainly keep you and your husband in my prayers.

In the words of a Christian hymn I know based on Isaiah 40:11:

Like a shepherd He leads His flock

And gathers the lambs in His arms

Holding them carefully close to His heart

Leading them home
Hey Bobby,

Since you're so into mythology, check out this site:

There's many sites like this and TV documentaries with lots of evidence for the existence of Bigfoot. However, I still don't believe in Bigfoot any more than I believe in the Zionist conspiracy theory.
Anonymous 9:59Am


How creepy is that?

Iranian president congratulates Pope on prophet Jesus' recent birthday-NOT!

Guess this is what we can expect in the future. Jesus gets lumped in with all the other profits, and is given a happy birthday card by a radical Moslem that denies the holocaust. I hope the Pope explained that Jesus is not just a prophet and that his birthday did NOT really correspond to Saturnalia, a pagan feast day, and birthday of the Sun God.
Should have put quotes around 'profits' to show the irony intended.
Anonymous 9:05,
Oh I remember you now.
It was you I called a liar.
Not your race .
Not your denomination.
Not your Religion.
Just you, and you're doing it again.

And again you can't substantiate
your false accusations. You can't
seem to find, (even though you
remember that it was about a
year ago), even one example
of me calling Jews or Catholics
any names, because I didn't.
I just called you what you are.
I have Jewish and Catholic
friends, and family !

And that's the only thing
I've called you, though I wouldn't
have called you anything if
you hadn't attacked me.
And attacked me, and again,
and again. You began by
attacking me and you've
been stuck there ever since.

I feel sorry for you; sucking
your thumb and imagining all
this evil against yourself that
doesn't exist. And with so
much actual evil in the world,
it's just sad, very sad about you.

I forgive you, though. I really do.
Just please stop telling lies
about me, whom you've never
met. I don't hate you.

My heart aches for you.


My prayers are with you and your husband right now. I pray that you would find comfort in each other and in God who loves you more than you can imagine.
"Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others." Philippians 2:1-4
I'm on the radio tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern time. I will finish the series with Niki Raapana on "Communitarian Law". It is controversial here, but the Communitarian puzzle is a vital part of global governance mechanisms being put in place and Niki despite our differences over Israel and her false premise that it is a Zionist scheme (which she appears to have based on New Ager Martin Buber's involvement -- he moved to Israel after his Eranos lecture stint - see my posts to the last two threads on tha yesterday) -- This will finish that series.

Mac 5:19pm

That is beautiful and inspiring. Thank you for posting that.

Thanks for the heads up. Are you still interested in the event at The Palace? Should I get the tickets? How many? I was hoping for a suite (it would have made note taking and such so much easier) but the connection I have says no, unless they happen to offer up tickets but it's not likely.

thanks for beautiful words, friends.

Irv died about l PM on the Feast of the Epiphany. Peacefully while I was out packing to go to the hospice.
I am glad we did not have to go.

Looking forward to being there with him ASAP.

Irv was not an Indian but the nurses and I and my son heard drumming outside his window from dusk until dawn. Do not know if it was something mechanical like wind, or something spiritual...but it was mournful. The world mourns when a really good affirming man passes? If only every man were like Irv.


May the peace of God which surpasseth understanding guard and guide you and your family now.

Even though it might be painful now; don't ever forget how much you and your husband loved each other and forged a bond that while human, was ultimately divinely guided and succored by God, himself.
Mariel, I'm hopeless with words so I thank and add my Amen, to at 6.07.

May the Peace of the Lord be with You.

I pray that you can stay strong during your time of loss. Although you may have wanted him to stay with you, God chooses the time we die. He knows what is best for us. Trust Him.
Constance - ? tonight's show ?

It's getting late over here in the UK and I've missed the previous shows with Niki. Will this third show 'stand alone' from the other two or is it possible that I might have missed too much that it could be confusing to listen to last one?

Many Thanks for any suggestions and May the peace of the Lord be your comfort and strength in what appears to have been a somewhat testing time for you over the past week or two.

Quit all the whinning and get back on track of dealing with how the New Age is infiltrating all religions!!!

"One of the biggest advantages we have as New Agers is,
once the occult, metaphysical and New Age terminology is removed,
we have concepts and techniques that are very acceptable to the general public.
So we can change the names... demonstrate the power...
open the door to millions who normally would not be receptive."
(Dick Sutphen, "Infiltrating the New Age into Society,"
_New Age Activist_, Summer 1986, p.14)

I pray the Lord will comfort you in His everlasting grace during your time of grief. Know that Irv loved you as you did he. I also pray that you will be reunited as one, just as the Lord intended when He brought you together. May your grief last but a season.

Anon 6:37pm

Is it possible you missed the previous immediate posts particularly the one by Mariel at 5:36pm?

Japanese who say they are the descendants of Jesus

According to the document, Jesus arrived in Aomori at the age of 21, where he took the name Daitenku Taro Jurai, studied the Japanese language and developed a deep affinity for the country and people. Eleven years later – conveniently the same period in the Bible that his whereabouts cannot be accounted for – he returned to Judea but fell foul of the Romans.

Yet more blasphemy for the day. This one comes via the Telegraph.
I have a new post up, so you might want to refresh your browser page.


Suzette, well, if you're going to buy the tickets (and I'm happy to reimburse you), get two!



My deepest condolences. Irv sounds like a most wonderful husband! May God go with you!

Another 48 minutes and it's show time. This will be the third and final in this series on Communitarianism. Niki will be joining me.

To Paul (4:42 PM):

Re: "Oh I remember you now.
It was you I called a liar."

"And again you can't substantiate
your false accusations."







Mariel-- we don't know each other, but please know that I was very sorry to read about the loss of your husband.

RE: the “trinity debate.” I wonder if what the Apostle Paul says in 1st Corinthians 8 regarding the eating of food sacrificed to idols can be applied here. Perhaps we should consider whether using the word “trinity” will cause another Christian to fall into sin. Here's the way I see it-- The word “trinity” may not be in the Bible, but the concept is most definitely there, stated by Jesus himself (most important, in my mind). As Constance said, we understand that God can certainly speak to us any way He chooses. However, we know what Jesus and Paul said about false messiahs coming and Jesus returning on the clouds. Does every believer, especially the young or "weak", truly understand this? Isn’t it *more* likely that a believer is going to stumble and sin by falling prey to the NAM message that God is revealing Himself in a “new way”? That's my concern. After all, we have been told that even many of the elect will be deceived. I think it's less likely that someone will stumble because of our using the word “trinity.” I'll continue to use the word unless I’m absolutely convinced that it will cause another person to sin. The term sums up what we do know about God (what He has revealed to us), and I think it is Biblical.

I hope this makes sense...
Dear Mariel (3:14 PM)

Please do not allow "grief to destroy your faith."

Yesrs ago, my sisters and I took turns keeping vigil over our mom (who was in Intensive Care for 36 days).

When she passed, we were comforted by the words of a friend who said:

No eye has seen
Nor ear heard
Nor the heart of man conceived
What God has prepsared
For those who love Him.

May Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ comfort you during these very difficult times.
Anon 9:59pm

This is totally creepy. Does anyone know the significance of the backwards facing bird? The obvious sun symbol (looks like the ring of eternity) also stuck out.

Which Rudi pointed out on another thread.
RUDI - Thanks so much for that collection of links, it was perfect for some research I was doing at that very time. I will post more on this when I can put it altogether. Now family duties call.


I implore you to please use comment moderation here! Or dis-allow anonymous posters! Some of us, like myself, have had to resort to anonymous posting so that we will not be attacked personally and viciously. However, the continued use of anonymous posting is what is fueling the fire here. Comment moderation is not against the first amendment. It strengthens the first amendment such that people can feel free to discuss topics openly, within a civil framework of group etiquette, and without fear of retribution.

I have come to the conclusion that certain people on this blog are using the Delphi Technique in order to gain consensus. I hope I am wrong, but let's look at what's been happening here.

A viewpoint is expressed that is in opposition to the viewpoint of the facilitator or facilitators. They attempt to discredit others who are not in agreement with their position, in order to shed doubt on the oppositions's character, or ability to think clearly or without bias. They do this in order to gain a consensus with the majority.

The "facilitator" uses a divide and conquer attitude in order to manipulate one group's opinion against the other. Facilitators, when asked questions they don't want to answer, often digress from the issue raised and try to work the conversation around to where they can make the individual asking the question look foolish, feel foolish, appear belligerent or aggressive.The goal is to put the opposition on the defensive. Some of Bobby Garner's comments of late are a perfect example of this!

From a website about this technique:

"This technique is a very unethical method of achieving consensus on a controversial topic in group settings. It requires well-trained professionals who deliberately escalate tension among group members, pitting one faction against the other, so as to make one viewpoint appear ridiculous so the other becomes "sensible" whether such is warranted or not."

link here:


Ironically, this technique is based on Hegel's principle, so I understand your reasons for exploring communitarianism within the plans for a New World Order.

"The Delphi Technique is based on the Hegelian Principle of achieving Oneness of Mind through a three step process of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. "

If I am correct about this, then the only solution to restoring civility here, is to eliminate anonymous posting or use comment moderation.

In the short time I have been here, it has become obvious to me that people have left this blog because of intimidation. Others here won't dare to express themselves for fear of retaliation.

I implore you to consider a filter in order to restore some peace and goodwill to this blogspot.
To HM (8:32 PM)

How can the following PROOF of the Trinity possibly lead man to "sin"???

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
(Matthew 28:19).
To Anonymous (9:16 PM)

Oh, please - stop with the hysterics and the paraonia.

I don't even have a CLUE what this "Delphi Technique" is, but you seem to be an expert.

I have been an anonymous poster by choice since last year, because I got tired of being labeled for my Catholicsm.

The only bloggers here who are demanding anonymous posters have a "name" are those who want to continue that "labeling."

The content of our posts should be what's important. Whether I call myself "XYZ" or "Mary" or "John" is unimportant.

If you sincerely have a desire to bring "peace" to this blog - then please learn to respect us Catholics and Jews who have the RIGHT to our traditional beliefs and convictions without being "preached to" on a daily basis. It's really that simple!

Anyone who is "intimidated" by an anonymous poster has some serious growing up to do.

We are not "demons" - or some organized group - trying to take over this blog. We are God-fearing individuals who just got fed up!!!
The reason I post anonymous, but always include my name at the end of the post, is because I can't make the posting program work. All attempts to use my "username" have failed, which I find is a frequent problem for me on blog/comment sites. I do not post anonymous to conceal my identity.

I certainly AM appalled at the attacks on people here because of their religious affiliations. To me it is obvious that many Catholics and Jews are NOT New Agers and have something to offer here. While New Ageism has crept into certain dioceses of the Catholic church, there are plenty of others which are more like a typical old-fashioned mainstream Protestant church in their beliefs and practices. Having been both a Catholic and a Protestant I can say this from experience.

While I am now a Protestant, my husband asked me a few days ago, before he died, to follow up on a dream he had to seek a support group at the local Catholic church, which he said he dreamed would be headed by a retired monsignor. So I certainly will do this. Jack Van Impe, the evangelist on television, sees the commonalities in Protestant and Catholic beliefs, but many Protestant think Jack himself is an apostate because of this. What rubbish! I have seen New Age Catholic parishes and individuals and New Age Protestant congregations...Satan goes everywhere, but some places, God be praised, keep that influence to out.

Dear Mariel (9:58 PM):

You are what is known as a TRUE Christian in the purest sense of the word.

May God bless both you and Jack Van Impe!!!

And, yes - Satan is an "equal opportunity offender" - and he loves to pit various religious group against each other.

However, he can't DO it without our permission.

I'll get off my "soap box" now!!!

Anonymous 9:42

I am a Catholic. But I disagree with the way some of the Catholics here have treated others on this blog.

But perhaps they're not really Catholic? Hard to say with anonymous posters....
To anonymous 10:08, my Catholic girlfriend,

Hehehhehehheheheh! You GO GIRL!


I am so sorry to hear about your husband. He is certainly in a much better place now, and certainly with Jesus, who loves everyone, even Jack Van Impe. But shhhhhhhhhhhh!

Don't let the fundamentalists on this blog hear you say that!
To Anonymous (9:42 PM)

Well some of us "disagree with the way that Catholics are BEING treated" by some on this blog.

It's a two-way street, dear - and yes, we are "REALLY" Catholic.

Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ KNOWS this - so we don't necessarily feel we have to PROVE it to anyone.

And - may God bless you too.


That last message was meant for Anonymous - the first 10:08 post.
Anon 9:18pm

I think HM was actually supporting the Trinity doctrine. But he, like we all should, was questioning whether or not it could cause another to fall into sin and stating that if it did, he would reconsider. (His conclusion was that it helped people from falling away.) His love for others causes him to think about what he is doing.

From the OT Proverbs 28:10 (ASV)
Whoso causeth the upright to go astray in an evil way, He shall fall himself into his own pit; But the perfect shall inherit good.

From the NT Romans 14 (ASV)
15 For if because of meat thy brother is grieved, thou walkest no longer in love. Destroy not with thy meat him for whom Christ died.

21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to do anything whereby thy brother stumbleth.

And one of my favorite verses in The Bible

Romans 14:23 But he that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith; and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I am NOT equating the Trinity doctrine with sin, just pointing out that HM was only carefully comparing it to Scripture and applying the principle of brotherly love to it.
No dear,

You meant the second 10:08 post!

Anon 9:18 PM

Hi! Yah, that's why I said "the concept is most definitely there, stated by Jesus himself (most important, in my mind)" and ended with "The term sums up what we do know about God (what He has revealed to us), and I think it is Biblical." That exact verse, Matthew 28:19, is what I was referring to. (Sorry- maybe I should have quoted it to be more clear.) But the controversy is that Jesus did not say "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Trinity," correct? How would that cause someone to stumble? I'm not exactly sure. That's why I said I would need to be absolutely convinced to stop using the term. To me, it doesn't matter. What matters, to me, is someone not believing what Jesus *did* say and trying to convince others that He will be appearing again in some other form than what He told us (returning in the clouds)!

Joyce-- Perhaps you can comment on how the word "trinity" might cause someone to fall into sin, as opposed to how *not* using the word could lead a Christian to sin?

This is actually pretty funny-unless you're an evangelical:

Anonymous 10:43:

That was nasty! Please apologize to the Evangelicals, as well as to Mariel and the Catholics!

We need to all get along!
Thank you, Suzette. You got what I'm trying to say...and thanks for expounding with those verses! :]

If you are going to refer to the Delphi Technique, at least have the sense to read what you've linked to. The technique can't be used on a thread.

The problem here is that while people come to learn about the New Age movement, it has become a big family affair with all the disfunction of large families. Everyone feels free to say whatever they want to in their "home."
Anonymous 10:46;

As an Evangelical, there's no need to apologize. The Evangelical Christians that stay close to the Word have no fear of being deceived by some of the heresies described by the Fundamentalists.

There are very good Christians in the NOM and NAR movements who are DEFINITELY not into kundalini and impartation any more than the Catholics are into idol worship.

It's the judgmental attitudes of many that create dissension that leads to sin. There are heretics and New Age teachings creeping into every church. Pointing fingers at specific groups is just plain wrong. I'm with Mariel and the Catholics on this one.

Dear HM (10:39 PM):

If you really BELIEVE that "the concept is most definitely there, stated by Jesus himself (most important, in my mind)" --

then I don't understand why you are asking for input from Joyce who has gone on record as NOT believing in the Trinity -- to explain how we "fall into sin" by believing in the Trinity???

I am sincerely confused by your post. Please explain. Thank you.

I guess my point is that, when I truly believe in something, then I am confident in my belief. I don't need to seek verification (or an opposing view point) from anyone else.
To Anonymous (10:34 PM):

You're absolutely right -- I did mean the SECOND 10:08 post.

Thank you.

Dear Susette:

With all due respect:

When people are being pressured to "reconsider" their beliefs - that's a sign that the New Age is creeping into that particular church.

One of the NA themes is that "we must abandon our old way of thinking."

It's a slow, subtle process - and a cautionary tale for us ALL.
Anon 10:59 PM

Hi! I'm not seeking verification, and I don't see asking someone else to explain their point of view as doing that. I do like having conversations with people and getting an understanding of where they're coming from. For example, the other day I asked Susanna about a Catholic faith resource, Dr. Ray. I'm not Catholic and I don't intend to convert. But she suggested a resource and I'm happy to look at it! I asked Bobby Garner about his view regarding the Apostle Paul being fraudulent. I certainly had no intention to change my views on that! But he replied and now I know where he stands on that issue (uh,

I see nothing wrong with getting more information about another person's perspective. It's a way to relate to someone. Doesn't it help us know what to say, how to love them?

To HM (11:29 PM):

Thank you for clarifying.

Personally, as for me, I can LOVE and respect everyone's views AND continue to feel very confident in my belief in the Holy Blessed Trinity.

"Five Fundamentals of the Faith: [from Berit's website]

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).
4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20)."

Do all Christians here agree on these?

Anon 11:35 PM

No problem. :) Thanks for your reply.

Dear History Maker,

Re: I think it's less likely that someone will stumble because of our using the word “trinity.” I'll continue to use the word unless I’m absolutely convinced that it will cause another person to sin. The term sums up what we do know about God (what He has revealed to us), and I think it is Biblical.

I hope this makes sense...

It makes perfect sense, History Maker. The word "Trinity" is a DESCRIPTIVE term used to described a DOCTRINE that is found in the Bible.....implicitly in the Old Testament.....explicitly in the New Testament.

It is kind of a verbal "shorthand" coined by Tertullian along with the word "person" to describe the three objective, co-eternal, and personal realities of the one Godhead known as "Father, Son and Holy Ghost."

If you prefer to use the verbal "longhand," however, it is to be found in the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds. :-)
Dearest Mariel,
I'm so sorry that I've had a busy schedule and just caught your posts tonight.
I'm praying for you right now. May the Lord comfort you and may you know His peace.

With Deepest Sincerity,
Dear Mariel,

Never forget. Love is stronger than death.

The Great Commandment is an eternal one.

Apart from our vision of God, those who were closest to us here on earth will be closest to us in Heaven.
I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your husband. May the Lord give you His peace that surpasses all understanding and guard you in Him.

Setterman 6:36,

This is the second time you have quoted the same single sentence from me, and then added your own statement, “Where are moslem’s tolerant?” Obviously you misunderstood my viewpoint. Granted, I could have chosen a much better way to phrase what I was trying to say. But I did post lengthy follow ups…perhaps you missed them.

Let me try to clarify. Fundamentalists of all religions are the target. Anyone who dares claim “my way is the only way” or “the right way” is going to get marginalized, compromised, persecuted, or exterminated. The goal is to place everyone under “dhimmi” status. If the AOC gets it's way, and if the Bible is true, than we can expect one big overarching religious "standard" will try to dominate all the others.

The AOC and WEU, and related orgs, have identified an important precedent set during the middle ages, when what was generally recognized as a fairly “moderate” form of Islam ruled much of Europe for 700 years.

Granted, in Islam” moderation” is a relative concept. There are always various factions striving for dominance. Take for example the Spanish Caliphate, which may have seemed intolerant at certain times, but was considered exceptionally tolerant in comparison to what came after. (I.e. The Spanish Inquisition and the expulsion of all Jews from Spain.).

ca. 900–1100 The tolerance for non-Muslims under the Umayyad caliphate and Ta’ifa kings creates ideal conditions for harmonious coexistence among Christians, Jews, and Muslims. The tenth and eleventh centuries are especially significant for Spanish Jewish history and are often regarded as a golden age of literature, philosophy, and science.

Granted also, that during 700 years of Islamic rule in Europe there were plenty of atrocities committed by the so-called “moderate” ruling classes. I posted repeatedly about this topic when it became apparent that the WEU meeting place was granted to Barcelona, which is historically significant.

There is much scholarship regarding Islamic rule in Europe, and much historical evidence documenting that both Jews and Christians were allowed to rise to prominent roles in the various Islamic governments of the time. In my view, the AOC, and even more importantly, the WEU, are using this time period as a philosophical model.

It's quite apparent that Islam is once again gaining a foothold in Europe. The flood of immigration is changing the cultural landscape in Spain, France, Great Britain, etc. There are more mosques than churches in GB these days.

The AOC and the WEU must get moslems to buy into their "plan" in order to be successful, indeed, even survive. The AOC and the WEU are cozying up to “moderate” Islamic nations to gain support against those they label, “fundamentalists”. Yet we all know that this “support” comes with a price. The influence Islam is gaining within the WEU will shape what I call “the last days policy” the EU/UN ultimately adopts towards Israel. The proverbial "thirty pieces of silver".

You may or may not have read my lengthy post on Gothic architecture re Pedralbes and the WEU where I wrote:

This new political edifice, emerging out of the sea, which we are now supposed to call “The Union of the Mediterranean”, is founded on the AOC’s Andalusian model of the Islamic empire that swept over Europe in the middle ages. In the opening pages of her book, “the Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain”, author Maria Rosa Menocal reveals that, “The very heart of culture as a series of contraries lay in Al-Andalus, [the medieval Spanish Caliphate] which requires us to reconfigure the map of Europe, and put the Mediterranean at the center.”

The fact is, Islam can be quite “tolerant”, as long as it has it’s foot on the necks of the infidels. While Islam is not the coming "one world religion", it does provide a historic model for those preparing the way.

I am not denying Yeshua, so the Scripture that you chose is not exactly appropriate. I am denying the use of a word to describe the nature of God that Scripture does not use i.e. the Catholic Church's definition, which is trinity. This is quite different.

God said He is "echad" (composite unity). He says this over and over again. He NEVER says He is trinity. Having said that. Let's look closely. The Ruach that we call Spirit is wind or breath. The Word is Yeshua. God spoke and the universe was created. Can we separate God from His breath or His Word? No. He is echad. John says, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Did the Word that spoke the universe into creation become separate from God Himself? No..

Miriam was overshadowed and through the "breath" of God was with child. That child is the fullness of deity in bodily form.

I prefer to describe God the way He describes Himself. Yeshua and the Father are "echad". They cannot be divided. Yeshua does exactly the will of the Father. The Spirit leads us in all truth. Is the Spirit separate from God who breaths and creates.?

When you look at the interrelationship of Father,Son and Spirit, we are not talking about three separate but equal entities. We are talking about One God united in purpose who manifests Himself to man. It's up to us to know Him as I will be what I will be.

None of the disciples used the word trinity, God does not use the word trinity, so why should we? I am not denying Yeshua or His deity, so that is not what I am saying. Yeshua has to be deity, because He is one with His Father, otherwise we can be accused of polytheism.

When I look at Yeshua, I see no separation from the Father. They are echad, therefore Yeshua is deity.

Can you be separated from your word? I grant you this is not easy to understand, but God is a lot bigger than we are. How do we explain that Yeshua is the Lamb slain from before the foundations of the earth. God transcends time. He transcends our definition of Him. He reveals Himself through His word, but He does say that the hidden things belong to Him, so I only have to understand what He tells me and not go beyond that.

As for progressive revelation, that is a pretty commonly excepted idea in theological circles. I believe that Abraham, Moses and others looked forward and saw Yeshua's day, but between that and the Bible revealing exact detail of what would happen, no. We know what happened when it happened, and in the same way, in the Last Days which I believe we are living in, we will know what happens when we are in it, so as much as I read the prophecies and seek to understand them I believe there are specifics that I will know when they arrive i.e. is Solana or Prince Charles or Obama or Joe Blow the antimessiah? I don't know that now, but when I see someone enter the Holy Place i.e the reconstructed Temple ( in my opinion) I will know that the end is near according to Matt 24.

All I'm saying by that is we cannot know with precision the details of what will happen until God reveals it. Had this not been so, more of the Jews would have followed Yeshua, because they would have understood precisely from the Scriptures who He was. The fact is with all the prophecy about Him, many rejected Him. They had the veil that was placed over them...

Moses came down the mountain and his face was too bright for anyone to look at so he put a veil after being face to face with God. Do you think he saw Yeshua's coming? I do.

The eyes of the unbelieving are veiled so thy cannot see the glory of God.

History Maker,
I wouldn't exactly say believing in the trinity causes someone to fall into sin, as much as give a false impression about the nature of God and that in turn can lead to sin. I'll try as best as I can to explain myself. If God is one and He doesn't change that the God of the "Old Testament" is the same as the God of the "New Testament". I don't like these expressions which were made up after the fact again by the Catholic Church.

Because many Christians see God this way and there is a long history of how this happened, they do not see Him as the God of Israel. They do not see themselves as grafted into Israel. They see a separate entity called "a church" which I've explained before here, so I'll spare you. God is one and He has One people. From the beginning He called the people of Israel to be a nation that would point others to Him so that they could join together with Israel and be the "set apart assembly". Ruth would be a prime example of this.

I believe as God is echad, so are we, but I don't believe that Jews who are part of Israel need to become Christians. They only need to recognize their Messiah. They are Jews and as such are the natural olive branches who are grafted back in to the olive tree. The nations do not need to become Jews, but they need to attach themselves to the called out assembly i.e. Israel.

Now today that's hard because many who are the native descendants don't believe in Yeshua, but by understanding that Yeshua is the Word that became flesh we can begin to not separate Him from His Torah When nautral born branches are grafted back in according to Romans, it is life from the dead i.e. the resurrection.

God is showing us there is one source. It is Him. He is the root, but if we don't recognize Him, His calling and His commandments because we have made "another god" "another entity" and we have tried to replace Israel we don't see ourselves as branches grafted into the same tree and we will act differently. Now don't misunderstand me and think I am saying that Christians do not receive salvation. That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is in the last days God will have one people. We will not be divided, so clearly something has to change for that unity to be achieved, and I'm not talking about the false unity of the anitimessiah.. I'm talking about the true unity in Yeshua.

The Torah will go out from Zion. In the last days 10 men will grab the tzizit of a Jew, which symbolizes the keeping of the commandments. When the woman with the issue of blood was healed, she grabbed Yeshua's tzizit. Do we understand this, when we read the stories in the gospels.

An olive tree will only produce olives.. So an unnatural branch grafted to the tree should produce olives too. I believe sincerely that we have misunderstood the language of the Torah and as a result have created a god that doesn't always resemble the Holy One of Israel.

Today people are realizing this. As they do, the Jews and Gentiles are becoming one. I believe this was God's plan from the beginning to have one called out assembly, but if we see ourselves as part of a Roman Church or some offshoot of that then we will never be able to understand who the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is. Yeshua did not come to make up a new definition of who God is.

I don't hate Catholics or anyone else who believes in a trinity or who follows the teachings of the Catholic Church. On the contrary, I feel sad because I know what they are missing out on. I feel like joining oneself to the Roman Church is a substitute for joining oneself to Israel and being a grafted in Olive branch. For the Israelites who do not know their Messiah, what can I say? This is revelation that God gives us when He pulls us out of the darkness and puts us in His kingdom.

I think we all desire to know God as He is, not as someone describes Him. It is only by searching and seeking and knocking, and being in His Word that we can really know Him, not through religion. Religion becomes ritual that has a a feeling of some kind of "spirituality" but God has revealed Himself through His Word. He is the Word and to know Him that's where we have to seek HIm.

If we are able to just read Scripture and not bring all of our "baggage" to it we can sometimes hear His voice in a more accurate way. I just spent several days doing this with some friends, and it was awesome. When we look at the Scriptures, we do need to know original language which is possible today with the many lexicons on the market, and original context to understand the who, what, where, why and when of Scriptures or we can easily misinterpret. I know Catholics were never encouraged to do this, but that might be changing a little in our days.. but we should all be doing this.

When you are able to see what it means to be a "new creation" in HIm, you realize there is no condemnation in Yeshua, but you want to know Him as He is, so that you can truly worship Him in Spirit and in truth. I think this is the point of what I am saying. It is also a safeguard against deception. Don't forget, in the Last Days many churches are going to be deceived. They are already starting to be and we have a responsibility to be in relationship with God and hear from Him. There might not be a "church" to go to.

Whatever it's going to look like, it's likely to be so compromised that it will be useless. The church in Germany during Hitler's time is a perfect example of this. How could so many Germans allow themselves to follow Hitler? Only if they were so deceived as to not understand the Scriptures and not understand God's love for the Jews and Israel. This allowed them to be deceived and to rationalize what they were doing. Don't think history can't repeat itself. It can and it will. People will turn against Israel because they don't understand the plan of God. Today this is happening. There are leaders sending a document to divide the land. These are people who have Phds, so it's not for lack of education.

How can you read the Bible and do this. The Word of God is 100% clear on this issue and yet heads of seminaries and denominations are doing this. The Catholic Church also wants a "Palestinian State". I don't always like the actions of the secular Israeli govt. but this is not the point. The point is God is not a man that He should lie and we need to follow what He says regardless of what man thinks. I don't believe secular Zionism is the answer. I truly believe God will put Torah on the hearts of all Israel and the Torah will go out from Zion, when Yeshua comes back, but having said that, we have NO RIGHT to divide the land. Scriptures is clear on this.

If you believe as I do, that God is still working with Israel and has never stopped, then the Scriptures are not going to contradict the Tanakh, but rather fill it with meaning and God will restore Israel and they will know Yeshua. I have said and will say it again, we will never drive the Jews to jealousy with a Messiah that says the "church has replaced Israel". As a result when I speak, I try to look at things in a hebraic context and do not use the language of the Roman church, which was infused with Greek philosophy. I read the Bible as one book, and I always start in Genesis, not at Matthew. One part cannot and will not contradict another, therefore our interpretation must be in light of this.

PROOF OF THE TRINITY (along with the biblical scripture to support it):

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
(Matthew 28:19).

Please state your beliefs without bringing the Cathoic Church into it. You are neither an expert nor an authority on the Catholic Church, or its teachings!!!
That verse doesn't prove there is a "trinity". That proves God is Father, Son, Spirit, but God is completely echad. That text doesn't prove that God is a trinity. What I said was there is no trinity in the Bible and Scripture doesn't say there is. Let's look at specific texts and see what it says.

Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! ( echad)

Yeshua says this too:

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

So now, our discussion should really be how do we reconcile this notion of oneness with what we know.
Yeshua also says He and His Father are one.

If you can't answer it, you'll have a hard time talking to Jehovah Witnesses, Jews, Muslims and all those who believe in monotheism. They hear Christians saying there are three gods.. and they reject this. They think Christians are committing idolatry worshipping three gods.

I suggest that we compare John 1 to Bereshit ( Genesis)

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

"The Word was with God and the Word was God and all things were created through Him.." How can we understand this as anything but "echad". Let's look at Genesis now, which this verse is a clear reference to:

Gen. 1:1-3 When God began to create heaven and earth — the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water — God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

That's the JPS version, now let's look at NAS:

Gen. 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and cthe Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

The hebrew world ruach is wind or breath. This is from the Halot lexicon:

Aj…wr, Or. ruœhΩ, from jwr meaning 2; the same in Heb.; OArm.,
Sefire he looked for his breath of life (his nose > his breath of life > security, sanctuary (Donner-R. Inschriften 224: 2, and 2: p. 266; Jean-H. Dictionnaire 39 s.v. yob);

So, God is there, His breath, and the Word which spoke the creation into existence. You see, I believe Yeshua was there at the beginning, but in the passages that describe this we see no separation.

The incarnation of Yeshua, does not make God any less "echad". He is still "echad"..

We also know that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, so God transcends time:

Rev. 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

If from the foundation of the world, the Lamb was slain and the Lamb is the Word and the Word is with God and is God, can we really separate Father, Son & Spirit.

You see the Bible never, anywhere at anytime uses the word "trinity". On the contrary, God goes through a lot of lengths over and over to tell us He is one. If nothing came into being that was not through Him can we separate the Father and Yeshua? I say no.. Can I fully explain all there is about the mysteries of God...well only to extent because Paul says that right now we only see in part, but one day we will fully see.

1Cor. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

It's nice to have a handy word like "trinity" , but Scripture interprets Scripture, so we cannot contradict Scripture and I'm afraid that doesn't agree with the Genesis or the John account of who God is.. Be careful here...I'm not denying Yeshua, I'm disagreeing with the Catholic Church's description the Father, Son, Spirit.

We Catholics do not feel that we need "to be careful" when we announce:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son

Thst's PROOF enough for US that the Holy Blessed Trinity does indeed exist!!!

While, there is only ONE God, there are THREE persons in one God.

This is a mystery that we are not necessarily meant to understand, but choose to accept based on faith and supported by Scripture.

However, this "debate" may not be resolved (by some of the non-believers) until Judgement Day.

I can wait . . .
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Divine Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God. In this Trinity of Divine Persons, the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, the Divine Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.
Anonymous @ 11:42 am -
There is scripture to bolster the Trinity:
Mathew Chapter 3:13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here - detailed out is the Lord Jesus - having the Holy Spirit decend upon Him and the Father speaking from Heaven - unless there is some one who thinks that the Lord Jesus is a ventreloquist??

And also . . .

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
(Matthew 28:19).
To DouginMi (12:12 PM):

Thank you so much!!!
Doug in MI,
With all my respect to you that does not mean there is a "trinity". God says He is echad. That's all He says, although I agree we are to immerse people in the name ( notice, it's not names, it's name singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is still echad.. not trinity. Immersion is a very important aspect of this instruction. I will remind you that the people that believe in the trinity do not baptize by immersion. Everything has been divorced from its original context and this is the point I have been trying to make.

As soon as you use trinity you separate God and He is echad.. Argue with Him, not me.. I'm just quoting His Word. I guess I would use the analogy, if you take a grape from a bunch of grapes, it is no longer part of the bunch.. we have separated God and done something that He Himself has not authorized.

I'm sure you know that the immersion is a mikvah.. A mikvah is not something foreign to Torah. Israelites immersed and still do in the mikvah. What I'm trying to point out is that we have introduced concepts that are foreign to the people God gave the Scriptures to, namely the Israelites. God says He is echad. It's the first commandment. Hear O Yisrael, the Lord is God, the Lord is One..

Sprinkling someone with water is another concept that is foreign to the people of Israel and yet today, some groups like the Catholics practice this instead of full immersion. This again is an indication that immersion was not well understood. Now I don't know how you feel about sprinkling with water, but if we baptize someone in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they receive a new identity in Yeshua and the old person has died and is buried with Messiah and the New Creation is the one who emerges from the water. That is what this signifies.

We are a new creation, not two or three. Our new man has been cleansed of sin and the old man is dead and we have a new identity in Yeshua.

If you see how God speaks of Himself, you will begin thinking of Him the way HE has described Himself, not the way the historical church has. Lot's of changes were made back then, so we should be aware of this..

Blessing to you,


Observant Jews have applauded the Navy’s decision regarding Michael Hiles, a Messianic Jew who applied to serve as a chaplain in the U.S. Navy.

Hiles was approved by the Navy to serve as a chaplain. However, when he showed up for training he was told to wear a cross on his insignia instead of the Luchos that all Jewish chaplains wear, due to indecision on the Naval board as to the correct insignia.

Hiles protested to commanders that as a Messianic Jew, he should be given the Jewish insignia. He asked that the Navy reconsider. He was told that the decision came from the senior Chaplain Command and nothing at that time could be done

He was given the choice to wear the cross on his insignia, or leave the Navy. Hiles chose to leave.

The decision requiring Messianic Jews to wear the cross was made officially on November 26, 2008 by the President of the Navy Uniform Board, Vice Admiral M. E. Ferguson U.S. Navy Deputy Chief of Naval Operations.




Fortunately already a policy in the Army and Air Force, word on the street is that the Chief of Naval Operations has issued a policy that Messianic “Jewish” chaplains will wear the cross and NOT the Jewish chaplain device.

This is marvelous news, as it is a good step in keeping these people from misidentifying themselves and preying (praying) on unsuspecting Jewish service members.

Now, if only we can continue to ensure they don’t intercept Pesach seder kits… more...
To Joyce (2:02 PM):

Re: "Argue with Him, not me.."


There is no "argument" between me and Jesus . . . only between me and YOU.

Jesus and I are "on the same page."
The New Agers obviously don't believe in the Trinity since:

- they deny the actual divinity of Jesus Christ.

- they believe in the God within
(thus, elevating themselves to God status).

- they work relentlessly to try and convince traditional Christians to abandon "their old way of thinking and believing."

Therefore, in their view, there can be no "Trinity."
Hi Joyce -
I enjoy the discusions - there are no arguements with me - praise God - I am not (or no longer should I say - since mmm, 1976ish) Catholic, but I respect each persons opinion - your's included there sister :-).

Just for the record - I guess I am covered either way - got a nice sprinkle as a baby - immersed as an adult.
Aren't you as glad as I am that the Lord God looks upon the heart of a person and thier intent?

To DouginMi (4:51 PM):

Thank you for your very kind thoughts.

Yes, I am very happy that God reads our hearts (as well as our souls).

Hi, Joyce. Thank you for replying.

The way I see it— If someone, whether Jehovah’s Witness or Muslim, does not accept Jesus as God *and* God’s Son in flesh who died for our sins, he/she is not going to accept it whether we use “trinity” or not. How do you explain Hebrews 12:2? “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Jesus sitting at the right hand AND being God? It is difficult to understand in itself. God coming down to Earth as a baby is *already* foolishness for some. God dying on a cross is *already* a stumbling block for some. (Seen as "failing", right?) 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 “Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”

I'd also like to note that in Chapter 1 of Ephesians the Apostle Paul (certainly knowledgeable of the OT) *constantly* refers to God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and the role of each; says that we are adopted as sons through Jesus Christ (one family, "under one head"); and ends with “the church” as Christ’s body. (What a great chapter!) I would agree that more of us Christians, the church, the bride (myself included!), need to be diligent in studying Scripture and not simply rely on what we’re told by another human being.

Ultimately, the good news is that although I will never understand everything, I really don’t need to worry! All I *need*, I already have-- I've accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and I want to follow Him. The bottom line for me is that I continue to see more support in Scripture to continue using the term "trinity" and more benefit in it.

This is my last post regarding this discussion, so please feel free to have the last word if you like. ;) (I will read your response, but am moving on to Constance’s next blog post! lol)


I was sprinkled and immersed too, but the first time it wasn't by choice...I was a few months old.. so no one asked my permission..

The thief on the cross could come down and be immersed by Yeshua looked at His heart...Baptism doesn't save you any more than circumcision does.. That's the point of Galatians. We are saved by faith, and then we walk in obedience.


I guess I would say the same to you as I said to Doug. Salvation is by faith, no arguments there.

As for Paul's use of the word "church" you probably missed some of my other posts but that should be translated "called out community". The Greek word ekklesia is used in the Greek Septuagint which was written 200 years before Yeshua and talks about the "ekklesia in the Wilderness". You can see how important this might be in effecting the way we see the "called out assembly". Which was built on the rock:

1Cor. 10:4 and all adrank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

They also went through "waters"

1Cor. 10:1 -2For aI do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all bunder the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

now look, Paul is talking to believers:

1Cor. 10:5-12 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things happened as aexamples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as bthey also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “bTHE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO cPLAY.” Nor let us act immorally, as asome of them did, and btwenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Messiah was right there with them, but they fell anyway...It's quite interesting when you examine what happened to the "ekkelsia" in the the Wilderness.

It's an interesting trick you are up to here Joyce. You are denouncing Roman Catholics because of the nearly 2000 yo belief of Christians in the Trinity. (Note all other Christian NOT attacked, just RCs). Then you give a very nice "description" of the general understanding of the Godhead that would satisfy many Catholic theologians. No doubt about it. Can you consider that you are a "closet" Catholic? What "doctrine" is next that you will attack? And then affirm while you attack. Maybe its time to come out of the closet and embrace your inner RC. I fear thou does protest too much.
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