Friday, January 09, 2009

Is the unthinkable becoming acceptable in depression economies?

I came down today to the IHOP (International House of Pancakes) in my law office neighborhood. As I write these words I am still here. The party of which I write walked out the door a few minutes ago. At the large booth just ahead of me sat three management looking types discussing the woes of the economy in general and the automotive industry in particular. The waitress told me they come in often. I could not help but overhear significant parts of their conversation which concerned union contracts and industry financial sacrifices.

But then one volunteered that what really harmed them were the retirees and those near retirement with their pensions and health benefits. They laughed and said they and their doctors are sucking everything out of the system. The oldest of their number didn't laugh as loud as the other two who appeared to be late 30s, early 40s. One gentleman then said and he could be heard plainly, "What we really need is more Kevorkian* . . . that would solve the problem!" They laughingly agreed, the oldest gentleman without the apparent enthusiasm of the two others.

My manners suffered. I couldn't help it. I blurted out "SCARY." At that point, they all looked nervous and the topic immediately changed."

It was depression type pressures that led Germany to embrace Hitler's measures to euthanize the aged and the ill. It looks like similar dynamics are in place and it could well be that we are no less vulnerable than were the Germans of the 1930s.

Frightening times lie ahead and are already here for many. Stay tuned!


* "Kevorkian" refers to Dr. Jack Kevorkian who championed assisted suicide. Germans expanded on similar themes in the 1930s expanding the concept to those who if they could would choose suicide but since they were not competent to make the decision, others could and should make it for them. The nation of Holland / Netherlands has already moved forward on physician decisions that are not those of the patient for euthanasia, a euphemism for doctor murder of the patient.
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I read that Obama is planning a Citizen Corps for the youth and older people. I guess as long as we can work, we will live. I am retired so I guess I better stay healthy.

If someone had told me five years ago what our world would be like today, I would have said, "No way!".

Makes a person wonder what the future holds. I am so glad that in the end God is in control
Definitely depression -
we are headed - head fast and full speed in my opinion into "the tribulation" in some short orecer and yes - a global depression will be part of all that is going to tranpire facilitating the need for a "new" form of economics with a way to keep track of that system where no one - rich or poor - free or bond - shall escape.

When 2 billion plus die - it will make that transition much - much easier and acceptable.

Keep the oil lamps full - praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ - His Will be done.

President-Elect Obama said in his speech yesterday that he wanted ALL medical records COMPUTERIZED. This could well be part of global tracking system and a rationale that could be consistent with Rev. 18 -- the EU is also headed that direction and has been for a long time.

constance our hospital systems have been computerized for many years now.
Obama didn't limit his remarks to hospitals -- he said ALL MEDICAL RECORDS as I recall

What a disgusting conversation you overheard! I would have said something too, and I'm glad you did!

The world will not get any better as we well know. Although I still believe that most people are fairly decent and I'm constantly surprised by the goodness many exhibit still. My fear is more with the "mass mentality" that happens so easily.

I think the key is to related to people on an individual basis like you did. It makes them think about what they are thinking and saying.
Well, this is not so new. A few months ago I wanted to write about it. Because this issue will be involving quite some of us. I work at an old people home. Will I be asked to chose to obey or to search work elsewhere ? Well as a nurse it's going to be everywhere the same. How will react my family since I'm the main support of it ? The belief that the church is going to be taken away before these things arrive has blinded a lot of christian. Are we prepared to help each others ? Do we have plans how to do it ? You may know that in Germany if you are out of work for 2 months, you must accept to work as a prostitute, since this has been accepted as a profession.
What are we doing about it ? Some sort of debate should be started, but I'm not the one to lead it. I hope I'm wrong but I see a vacuum around me.


From CNA (Catholic New Agency):

Madoff Fallout Drains Funding of Abortion Advocacy Groups

New York, Jan 9, 2009 (CNA).-
Fallout from the exposure of investment manager Bernard Madoff’s massive $50 billion Ponzi scheme threw many individuals and charities into financial distress. The fraud has also deprived funding from several pro-abortion rights groups and projects.

The Florida-based Picower Foundation, listed as the 71st-largest in the nation by the Council on Foundations, claimed assets of $1 billion, the New York Times reports. It was forced to close in December due to financial problems with its assets, which were managed by Madoff.

Reportedly distributing about $70 million in grants between 2004 and 2007, the Picower Foundation describes its national grant making as covering areas of “education, medical innovation and an equitable and inclusive society.”

The non-profit networking web site reports: “The Foundation’s efforts to achieve a more equitable and inclusive society consists of supporting projects in human rights, reproductive rights and Jewish continuity.” blogger Nancy Goldstein on Wednesday reported that abortion advocacy groups are facing financial shortfalls because of the Picower Foundation’s collapse.
I learned more about how the medical and pastoral staff ease people out of life with my husband's recent death.
I was told by both a pastor whom I called to give me a ride that they would ease my husband out by gradually increasing morphine to make him not mind his lack of breathing capacity, and gradually decreasing the volume given by the breathing machine (ipac). After two weeks, the hospital definitely wanted us out of there, into a hospice (at our own very high cost) because Medicare would no longer cover a person who could not improve. Also, I learned that the "nursing homes" would not take anyone on Medicare who could not be rehabilitåted. In other words, no custodial care even for the short period that most of us have "days" covered by nursing home (usually l20 days). We would have had to go to a private hospice, which was cheaper than the nursing home, only $3000 a month for him and $l200 for me to sleep in the room next to his...a bargain compared to the nursing home; but I would have had some of the responsibility of care, and if we brought him home, almost all of the responsibility of care, and we have no family which would or could help. And I am also elderly and disabled, although doing pretty well right now due to the Lord's care and many people's prayers.

Fortunately, the Lord took him before they decreased his oxygen, which I gather from the pastor is a common practice. But they may have kept him off the machine too long while I went home to pack for the hospice, and so he passed on. It was time for him to go and I am so glad he is happy with the Lord.

However, I see how care is rationed even for those with the best coverage, except for long term care coverage. We had no long term care coverage because I could not get it due to my chronic ailment, even when young and working hard, and so my loyal husband would not take it--that was foolish, but we expected God to care for us, and He did.

But be warned that Medicare will not cover even a month of care in a nursing home unless you or your loved one are rehabable, that is, can get better.

I never learned these things when I was in a home for an injury, or when Irv was previously in a home when he was rehabable.

It is true that Medicare is "broke".
Can't blame those who are trying to cope with it. But isn't it awful that Medicare gives a lump sum to a hospital for each admission, no matter how short or long, and the hospital can make more money if they force you out, into "care" that won't work. There was no room at all even if we paid at the local nursing home; I would have had to take care of him at home, or take him to the hospice,which would have been fairly decent, but financially ruinous.

Many way, why didn't you save money for this: we did, but lost some of it in a fire in which FEMA took over insurance and then didn't fully pay...and of course, providing houseing for two disabled people with different disabilities is very expensive.

I am hoping for the rapture in spite of what some others here say, for I feel the Lord will not want his Bride to suffer the awful things coming. Don't be deceived, the things coming will break your spirit. What we went through was nothing to what is coming.

Keep looking up, your redemption draweth nigh.

If you haven't been to Fulfilled Prophecy lately, this article is quite disturbing, but further evidence global governance is coming--is this the kind of change we need?

David in B.C.
Oh Mariel,

You're in my prayers. I've recently discovered the same thing about the medical system with the death of my dad. I wish I could give you hug and provide some comfort. I know comfort is a scarce commodity in times like yours.

Blessings and love,

Involuntary euthanasia is common in nursing homes and hospitals these days. That's why families who know what is going on try to keep someone in the same room as much as possible. I've heard many hospitals have committees who determine who will live and who will die based on the cost. Signing a living will gets the hospital off the hook in case a problem comes up, but they can disregard anything a person signs. The Tery Shiavo case set new standards for who should be kept alive. When Constance was working on the Kevorkian matter, she saw how nursing home staffs were prepped by the insurance company to get families to accept the deaths of clients.

I can only hope that the strain on your husband's body was too much and he died naturally. I am posting this information as a warning to others. Now two states have accepted euthanasia as a natural way to death. I am presuming that they will go the way of euthanasia in Holland, saying that so much is being done by doctors already, why not make it legal and take the risk away from doctors.

Another topic:

Turkish Prime Minister praised for stance on Gazza Fighting


Seems like this was not only a current "thing." Look at this article (2001) to see echoes of what's going on now.


I posted some comments a couple of thread back about Turkish communitarianism and the fight over Turkey's NATO entrance.

Seems this might be more germane, now.
Episcopal Church and Rick Warren

I just learned of this story when looking into another. This is the first I have heard of it. I wonder what this will mean for other churches of different denominations.

Also, it seems that "America's Pastor" is now Rick Warren. I don't remember which radio show I heard it on, but they said that basically that is what Obama had done when he asked him to give the prayer.

In a story that ties the two together it seems Rick Warren is getting plenty of press.

find Rick Warren extremely dangerous. If you haven't already you can read Warren Smith's Reinventing Jesus Christ for free on line. I think there are updates that include Rick Warren.

He also has a book called Deceived On Purpose , from the title this is in fact a critique of Dr. Warren's book.
To Mariel (4:30 PM):

My heart breaks for you at all that you have been through.

I have also heard similar stories from others that support what you are saying.

May God give you comfort and strength until the time when you can be reunited with your dear husband in Heaven.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

After reading the article about Rick Warren and the Episcopal church it's clear that his stance is one of opposing the issues surrounding the gay agenda in the Anglican and Episcopal church and is offering those parishioners a place to meet since they are in the middle of a battle over the issue.

It seems this is not a strike against Warren in my book.

The first article is interesting but I would have to say that the folks that also commented in the book, such as Billy Graham had a strong message that Jesus is the only way.

I agree that this idea of "all one" is very dangerous and it is a negative idea to be associated with as an believer.

My husband and I are both retired.

Our clinic stopped taking Medicare as of December 31, 2008. As an alternative, they offered us an "Advantage" program - or should I say "Disadvantage" Program?

Effective January 1, 2009 - my husband and I switched to a new clinic and new doctors to keep Medicare as our Primary - and our former company medical insurance as our secondary.

I hope the day doesn't come when ALL clinics and doctors refuse to
honor Medicare.
This may have been posted before since I am a new person. Rick Warren is a member of The Council of Foreign Relations. Here is a link. I have also read this fact at other sites.
Obama has decided to postpone the digital TV switch.
Dear David in B.C.

Thanks for directing me to the FP article referencing Sarkozy and Angela Merkel calling for new global economic security council and warning USA not to get in the way. I'll bet Solana is somewhere in that picture as well -- if not out front, behind the scenes and/or the puppet box.

You are right -- it is important and disturbing!

Good catch! Thanks!


Deannie said it best. Your faith and courage are monumental.


Hello. I posted on a previous thread, the Empowering U event at The Palace has been cancelled. Now what was that you were saying about them not showing up?! :)

I'm sorry we couldn't go. Maybe we could have lunch some day instead?


I have watched you work for a number of years. I am quite familiar with a great deal of your work. Before you really knew me as Rich of Medford, I would occasionally call you with research questions. I lived in St. Paul then. Your leads were always valuable. They still are. I know you hardly sleep as I can tell by the time stamps of your posts. I see you are driven and relentlessly work for freedom loving people everywhere. Above all you are a watch woman and serve the Lord.

I have read a many, many of the forthcoming governing structures’ documents. I have been especially interested in those regarding militarization. I find that my research conclusions confirm and strengthen yours.

I know the discussion board has been in tough shape lately and also want to give you words of encouragement and say thank you.

Meanwhile, back at Paul Temple's Petaluma, California ranch (aka Institute of Noetic Sciences) we find the following afoot:

Emerging Worldviews

Program Area 3:
Emerging Worldviews

Never before in history have so many cultures, belief systems, and new scientific discoveries come into contact so quickly. The "postmodern" times ahead are indeed exciting and challenging. Our dominant ways of knowing about the world science and religion—are still often in competition, but neither can be exclusively correct.

As old societal structures are stressed, exploring emerging paradigms and worldviews grows in importance. Can a blend of ancient and contemporary wisdom help to generate transformative models for how to live life in the 21st century? Or must we seek something entirely new?

If you want to help fund one of the projects, please contact Jenny Mathews at 707-77.... For more information, download our complete research portfolio or just download Program Area 3.

· Willis Harman's classic books, Global Mind Change, Higher Creativity, and Biology Revisioned, helped forge a new appreciation for the idea that our unexamined assumptions about reality literally create the societies we live in
· With Stanford psychologist Stephen LaBerge we have studied the physiological and phenomenological nature of lucid dreaming
· Fariba Bogzaran conducted an IONS sponsored study to investigate experiences of the transcendent through lucid dreaming and creative artistic expression
· Marilyn Schlitz took us into the rainforests of the Amazon to explore the dream sharing of the Achuar Indians
· In 1984, the 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet met with a group of Western scientists in an IONS-sponsored symposium. In simple words, he spoke of his ancient tradition and the way it meshes with findings from the frontiers of science

Current Projects
· Dreaming for the collective: Subjective experience and collective action
This project takes us deeply into the Achuar worldview of the Ecuadorian Amazon to better understand the process of dream sharing among this remote group. Marilyn Schlitz, PhD
· Intention: Creating a culture of peace
This study involves a qualitative survey of the use of applied intention in peace promoting projects at the United Nations and ongoing peace work by other organizations. Sharon Franquemont
· Quantum holography
A team of scientists, under the direction of Dr. Mitchell, is creating an integrated model for understanding consciousness. Edgar Mitchell, ScD
· Religious revival in Mongolia
This project is documenting national identity and cultural and religious heritage among the Mongolian people. Vesna Wallace
· Testing theoretical models of mind-matter interaction
The study employs a theoretical model that can discriminate between forwards-time (psychokinetic) and backwards-time (retrocausal or precognitive) effects, and it uses data collected in an experiment to test against these models. Dean Radin, PhD

Proposed Research
· Indigenous consciousness: Research into the Dine tradition
The two researchers will work extensively with their elders to reveal knowledge that might otherwise be lost. Nancy Maryboy, PhD, David Begay, PhD, & Members of the Dine Nation

Hi Suzette:

If Obama postpones THAT abominatio, it might cover a multitude of other sins, to put it in Biblical parlance.

I see Congress is not decided on the delay, however.

This one wil be interesting. The digital switchover is giving me the creeps for some reason.

Thanks again!

Old Man of the Ski:

I have been rereading your fascinating Sun Bear testimony.

Would you consider being my radio guest next Tuesday, would be 5 to 6 p.m. Pacific time and 8 to 9 Eastern time?

Hope so and Thanks!

Dear Rich of Medford,


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I also have experienced this covert euthanasia several years ago when my wife's father had a stroke from mishandled prescriptions by two different doctors.

He had a stroke, and was in a coma for several days. When he came out of it, it appeared he would never make a solid recovery. He was a frail old man of 85 at the time. However he was still basically happy, and wanted to go on living.

Upon one visit to the nursing home,we noticed he had began to take a turn for the worse, and had become semi comatose again.

My wife was a nurse of over 25 years, and upon her looking at his chart, and examining him, it had been discovered he had no iv, or oral fluids in 24 hours!

After my wife was able to get the staff to hook up an iv, he revived again.

He recovered enough strength to return home again for several days, until he slipped off for the final time.

He was a wonderful man, and was a dedicated christian his whole life.

It turned out after his death that his wife was a closet new ager. We had suspected foul play from her as well as she got him to rewrite his will shortly before his episode. leaving her sole heir. Even though she spent her whole life in the church, and in her 80s, she told us basically she never really believed christian doctrine, and she was embracing the new age!!!
I was in Holland last summer. My grandparents were from Amsterdam. All i can say about Holland is YUCK. I have been in all of Europe except Crete, and Malta, and i can say Holland was my least favorite country. It has a strong secular spirit. The national religion is extreme liberalism. If you want to see Babylon, visit Holland, and don't forget to visit Brussels as well.
This comment has been removed by the author.

We have friends who are doctors who are afraid to go to doctors for so many of the reasons you give. I am so sorry you lost your mother. Thank you for this post. It was compelling!

Hi Dawn,

Welcome back! I don't recall seeing you in awhile and certainly have missed you in the internet chat room while I am doing the Tuesday and Thursday programs which are now 5 to 6 pacific time. Hope you are surviving the rough NW weather we are hearing so much about!

So, I was in the waiting room of my son's speech therapy office when I noticed a Newsweek article listing what they believed were the 50 most influential people in the world. Of course, number 1 was Barack Obama. Sarkozy and Putin were on the list. I think Warren Buffet was on there. Of all the names on it, one name was definitely missing. Guess who that was? Solana was not even mentioned at all in the article (actually I think it was a series of articles.) This is the man that is involved in more "peace dealings" than anyone listed in the article. While the world goes ga-ga over our new president, Solana can just kind of cruise along like the stealth bomber. If I can find a web link to this article, I will post it.

David in B.C.
Okay, this is not the best link, but scroll down to the bottom of the web page and you will find a simple list of Newsweeks 50 most powerful people. Each person on the list has a link.

David in B.C.
To hear Hamas' intent in thier own words - click the link - I do not know the organiztion refered to at the end of it -

Dear Constance,

Can you tell us where we can read Old Man of the Ski's Sun Bear testimony? Must have missed it somehow!
With the out pouring of info and bad news - we can all be certain there is a plan by those ruling the globe to account for each of us -
It's been a while since I've posted, though I have been reading (I have been saddened with the anger in the past 6 months on this board). This was the first time in a very long time I've read posts from beg-end. I am against euthanasia.

I ask you to look at what has happened to medicine practice in the 20th and 21 century. Doctors peddle medicine like candy on the advice of drug rep.s and care has been delegated to PAs and nurses, what's next delegation to candy stripers and janitors? Face it medicine is a religion. You are born in their church, die in their church and are forced into believing their philosophy or else. If you think real hard and objectively look at medicine as a religion you'll see the sorcery that is used. Study the lies that have been doled out and you'll be disgusted. Pray for discernment in regards to their religion. It wasn't too long ago that we use to hear, "Lucky Strikes, 9 out of 10 doctors recommend them." They are given more kickbacks than politicians. Believe me I know!
As of May '08 I no longer take medicare in my office and many of my friends in practice have stopped and/or are sitting on the fence. It's not because we hate "old" people, I actually love them and I am fascinated by their stories and the lives they lived. Medicare has actually cut reimbursements, they have increased penalties on mistakes made, and are coming after doctors like the IRS. That's right as bad as the IRS, in other words they $10,000 per mistake made. You could loose everything and go to jail for one patient that you bill wrong on! Did you know that teachers in some states can actually request a student be dx with add/adhd? I personally do not believe add exists and refuse to acknowledge it in my office. Most disorders in the body can be traced to inbalances in a test, add? Behavior that is expected in a child- mostly boys or adults/families that have two working parents, horrendous schedules, divorces, step/half siblings.
The pharmaceutical companies have wool over 99% of this country... Sorcery and witchcraft, look into DMT, people hallucinate and dream almost the exact same things that are very very very very demonic. Medicine is sooooo steeped in New Age from the beginning that it is glossed over as "traditional" or "conventional", and the "alternative" to medicines are "new" or "new age", all be it a lot of the "alternative in america" is new and is definitely New Age, but so is "traditional" medicine, with "researched" drugs and methodologies. Ask yourself if you've ever gone/come to the doctors office and "knew" what was wrong with you and wanted a pill to fix it, and were mad at the dr. for not "giving" you what you wanted- sick, why go to him/her in the first place. There is a war going on to make vitamins by prescription only. EVERY pharmaceutical co. wants EVERYONE on a drug, and the drone, nonthinking, nonindividual doctor happily complies with presents, trips, cce hours, etc.

Open your eyes to this and you will not be able to stop researching, just like we do with the new age research we all do. It is mind boggleing that I was ignorant to it and as the Lord brought me into his arms and gave me discernment, I see. I have changed my practice so radically in the last 18 mos. and the peace of the Lord has set me free to where my wife and family can see the burden that was lifted off my shoulders. Most of my practice was medicare and my income has dropped to 2/3, but my eyes are on the Lord instead of paper work.

I think we will see things get terribly worse before they get better.

God bless you all.
JB in CO
I am in the middle of the country and we have had the strangest winter that I remember in awhile. I have been trying to help my mother as well as regular things that a homeschooling mom does.

It is very hard for me to listen at night (the time is right before the kids go to bed). Maybe I can join again when we get a routine down. If you have old man on I will make an effort to listen.

About Rick Warren:
I have felt since before the Saddleback forum that he has been trying to assert himself as "America's Pastor".

Long ago someone showed me this article:

Anon- I didn't know he was part of the Council. Thanks for the link!

JB-Good to see you back.
Yup, there is covert euthanasia going on. I remember Dororthy mentioning it awhiles back. I think they did it with my father, as well. He was on hospice and in bad shape in a medical facility. One day when we visited he wasn't in his room but in the rec room in front of the ac, and very cold. He wasn't so much there mentally, and he died shortly after. In his case, however, I think the pain of his cancer in the bones would have been pretty bad.
But someone I know worked in a nursing home. After I heard some of the stories, I realize you shouldn't send your loved ones to a nursing home. The nurse in charge would overmedicate some of the oldsters with a double dose and mixed downers, so that they would sleep and not be any trouble, and eventually just fade away. One man came there from the nearby hospital to recover from a heart attack. He kept gasping and was in extreme anxiety because he couldn't breathe. This person told the hatchet nurse, who just ignored it, or said she would check on him, but she delayed and delayed, so this person checked his bp and went to another nurse then and the other nurse said he had to go back to the hospital asap. Many of the residents there are neglected, I think so that they will die. Sometimes some of the other workers will take the residents' food or drugs for themselves. Another trick is to put the oldsters in a completely different room to confuse them and disorient them even more than they already are, and the added stress seems to help push them out of this world faster.
JB in CO,

It is very important for us all to find alternatives to our current meds. When we get to the "buying, and selling", only with the mark, there will be no meds!

We are so close to the trib, and almost no one is making a whole approach to personal/familial preparation.

I can not help but think that the current medicating of young people is a result of the highly processed food we now eat. There is such a lack of dietary balance, and wholesomeness at such a critical time during growth. The hormonal system is whacked! Meds just exacerbate the whole thing into life long health issues, and dependence.

Has anyone noticed what kids crave, and get to eat nowadays!!!! Its shocking. Read the chemical content of highly processed food!!! No wonder our kids are having issues with behavior. That, and all the demonic input from mass media, and public school indoctrination etc.

Time to ready ourselves in all areas for what is yet to come

Thanks JB

In Christ Mark

If you are interested in learning more about Rick Warren, this is an excellent site for information.

Do a search at that site and you will find more articles.

Bob also did a radio series concerning Rick Warren. Here is the link:

He also did a series on the New Age:
I don't pray over/with every patient do to always being rushed. I've seen miracles not possible to describe and tragedies that should have never happened, and people go to the Lord with true faith and prayer. I've heard things said by children that have faith in the Lord that I hope I can say when my time comes.
I no longer recommend vaccines, and make people accountable for their own health with a responsibility form they sign when they come in as a new patient. I will not recommend surgeons who cut 1st and ask Q later. Do you realize most med. schools don't teach nutrition and the ones that do have just started in the last decade. Put it this way: If the dr.s secretary has ever been on a diet, that secretary probably knows more about nutrition than the dr., unless he's taken post hours. The 1st resort is still Rx. in offices. The Health Ranger is very close to ideal, however notoriety corrupts idealism and $$ walks faster than most idealists can run, so be careful with any and all "natural" stuff recommended by ANYONE.
JB in CO
Yes, Solana definitely tries to go under the radar and it is he running EU foreign and military policy. Sarkozy, Merkel, and now the Czechoslovakian president have only 6 month terms. Here is an interesting speech from Solana last October that might give you a glimpse:

Re Old Man of the Ski's Sun Bear Testimony -- he mailed it to me -- I will leave it up to him if he is willing to discuss it on my internet radio program. I've invited him for Tuesday -- hope he's reading the blog to know about it!

Hi Suzette,

lunch would be fun. Dinner might be easier. There is another regular reader here in the Detroit area, Carole, who probably would like to join us.

One word of caution -- I've noticed since the very beginning that health food stores are huge New Age centers and hangouts.

I listened to a large part of Barack Obama's speech during its delivery via CNN on January 8th. I just reread it. Probably considered somewhat heretical on this board, but as an old political speech writer, I have to say it is a good speech. Now maybe I should read more slowly . . .

At any rate, God has allowed his election. I will take a wait and see approach. I am far more concerned about the shape of the country that has been left him and what type of justification this will be for what Javier Solana seeks in 'global governance."


I sent an email to OLDMANOFTHESKI just last night in response to something he sent me, that interestingly enough, is pertinent to this conversation.

Check out this link:

We read:
"The rod of Asclepius symbolizes the healing arts by combining the serpent, which in shedding its skin is a symbol of rebirth and fertility, with the staff, a symbol of authority befitting the god of Medicine. "

How New Agey is that?

Both of my brothers are respected doctors, one, a surgeon is very well -known in the Northeast corridor amongst New York surgeons.

Sadly, my dad was killed by doctors in 2000, and both of my brothers were against legal action, though myself and my two sisters (one is an attorney) pressed my mother to do something to vindicate my dad's horrible death. The story is horrific. I still can't talk about it to this day.

My brothers won. At the time I couldn't help but think that the medical profession reminded me of a secret society.

Maybe OLDMANOFTHESKI is skiing! In these days that we live in, it's important to continue to try to live normally. That being said I haven't painted in weeks!

Recently, I brought up the subject of transhumanism on the thread about the Emergent Church. With the recent chaos that's been on the blog, I was not checking for comments to my posts on past threads. I just found this incredibly frightening but insightful link about educating children about:
"The Popularization of Transhumanism in School Education."

It's horrifying but certainly befits the current discussion!

A Great big thanks to Jolo.OSA for finding this link!


Yuck! Check out the number of the tinyurl! The number of completion!
Yup, health food, chiropractice, psychology and so on all heavy roots in new age, yet there is truth in the midst as well. See there is search for holisism which really is systematic elevation of self. And being whole, which is only found in Jesus, who is Messiah.
Gaza Officials: Massive Sewage Flood Imminent

IMEMC News (January 10, 2009)

Due to the ongoing Israeli invasion of Gaza, nearly 700,000 Palestinians have gone without water for days, and sewage pumping systems have stopped. In many places, raw sewage is running through the streets, and officials have warned that a massive sewage flood, like the one in 2007 that killed 5 people, could occur at any time.

One million people in Gaza remain without electricity for nearly two full weeks. The deputy director of the Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, Maher Najjar, told Israeli reporter Amira Hass that between 40 and 50 percent of the Gazan population are now without access to water.

There are 37 sewage pumping stations in Gaza. Due to the lack of electricity, 5 of them are completely out of operation, and the remaining 32 are only partially operational.

In March 2007, Um Al Nasser village in northern Gaza was completely flooded with sewage when a 6.5 acre septic cesspool containing 20,0000 cubic meters of sewage water collapsed, killing five people and causing hundreds to be made homeless.

Now, a similar disaster may be about to occur, on top of the military assault that has left over 800 people dead in the last two weeks. Local officials report that both fresh-water pumping systems that provide water to the residents of Gaza, and sewage pumping systems, pumping out human wastewater, are on the verge of collapse in many areas. The biggest wastewater treatment plant, in northern Gaza, was supposed to have been emptied a month ago due to the potential for flooding. Now, the risk of breakage and flooding has reached a crisis, with 10,000 people at risk if a flood does occur.

According to Maher Najjar of the Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, a major water pipe providing clean water to 30,000 residents in central Gaza was damaged by an Israeli air strike, and a sewage pumping station in Beit Lahiya stopped working after its generator was destroyed by an Israeli missile, causing sewage to flood the street.

In Beit Hanoun, sewage has been flowing through the street for a full week, after an intake pipe to the sewage treatment plant was hit by an Israeli missile.

In Gaza City, four out of seven sewage pumping stations have run out of diesel fuel for their generators, and are pumping sewage directly into the sea. The remaining three are dumping raw sewage onto farmland near Gaza City. Soon this sewage will be on the streets of Gaza City, unless pumping is restored.
There's an interesting European Union video up for viewing at this site. I was able to download it. It's a Youtube video, so you might be able to watch it fuller-screen over there.

My mother made me eat so many horrible health food concoctions growing up, that I must confess I told her rather gleefully that Adele Davis was the New Ager who introduced Ruth Montgomery to reincarnation. Adele Davis' "Tiger Milk" concoctions were ghastly. Probably helped immunize me to a large front of the New Age Movement, however! LOL

To Anonymous re Gaza:

What is happening there is a world class tragedy alright, and the people are caught right in the middle. As my first political science professor back in 1966 (a Kenyan named Dr. Muyia) told our Wayne State University class, "when the elephants fight, the grass suffers."

I am looking profoundly forward to the day when God takes final charge and "the lion shall lie down with the lamb and a little child shall lead them. Nothing shall hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain . . ."

You know, I have deep concerns for our members who live on the West Coast in the Seattle / Oregon area -- Washington has been more avalanche than ski country this year!

I pray Oldmanoftheski is ok.

To Anonymous (11:32 AM):

Thank you for your input.

I also believe if we have no other choice but to put our loved one in a nursing home, it's critical to visit often. Look into your loved one's eyes, ask questions, and LISTEN to what they say and/or DON'T say. Look for changes in their physical/mental condition (as only you would know what to look for). Also, show up unexpectedly and unannounced.

It will cause those, who are taking care of your loved one, to be on their toes - and more likely to not want to be confronted with your complaints and reported to their superiors.

Many years ago, my mother-in-law was forced to put my father-in-law in a nursing home. He cried every day she came to visit and begged her, "Please don't leave me here."

She listened to him - and found out later that a former prisoner had been hired by the nursing home as an aid. He had been slapping my father-in-law around while "helping" to bathe and dress him. (Of course, there were no witnesses.)

My mother-in-law took her husband home the following day!
You know, the big hullabaloo about December 21, 2012 is like a big target date for the New Age Movement. Since I've been rather snowed in today, I've had to do something to entertain myself. So, I came across an article from some place. I don't know how good the source is, but maybe it's meaningful.

Here's another piece of info that I think was previously posted last year:

David in B.C.
To Anonymous 3:47
When you give advice to others, tell them that the staff should see them taking plenty of written notes. Ask lots of questions and take notes, names of service providers, plan of action, medicine, even if you have no clue what their answers mean. It didn't help my husband because I didn't think of the tactic until too late in the action, but it did help my mother get out of their clutches and live for 7 more years. They don't want to be bothered by legal action. In our area there is a legal office offering through a television commercial to help families whose member has suffered in a nursing home.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Constance, I too was subjected to Adele Davis ideas on nutrition.

Did you know that she died of cancer, which I think may have been at least partly caused because she ate a pound of liver every morning in addition to a big bowl of cottage cheese. She said she could never die of cancer with her diet.

My husband and I followed an organic lifestyle for many years, and we believe in healthy unpolluted food, but not in the extremes Adele Davis recommended. How ironic that a nutritionist could eat a pound of liver for breakfast, as liver is full of the chemicals which were fed to the animal whose liver one is eating.

Young Grasshopper--

Thanks for the "Great big thanks!" :-)

Take a look at the "sevens" (scroll down some) on this Judaism page:

One word of caution -- I've noticed since the very beginning that health food stores are huge New Age centers and hangouts.

Spot on Constance. You usually find the yoga & environmental books there. But also the Business sections of book stores - speaking from personal experience.
Hi all, I hope everyone is doing fine.

I've been wanting to ask for awhile: How far back do we post? I keep checking old posts, if there is something there I would like to ask about or discuss, do you post it there or bring it forward to the newest? I'm still learning the "rules", is there a FAQs for blogging? Someone asked how to delete your own post, I don't know if that got answered and what it was.

Young Grasshopper,
I was trying to catch up and found your post on the YHVH article. I am completely geeked about this topic. I have always wondered why we have so many differences in our Bibles regarding the names of God.


What a beautiful link! I never knew about the Shemittah year. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have God ordain that again! I definitely wouldn't mind having my debts forgiven,lol!

I think we are coming into a similar time,when many people will be tested in their faith and obedience that God will provide for them during tough financial times. I do believe the Lord will provide!

Thanks for sharing!

I got a spam ad from this group.

This website came up when I did a google search.

Marilyn Mandala Schlitz


I don't know if this has already been mentioned - sorry if it's old news.

Constance, thanks for the invite, please call or email me, I'm pretty sure my home phone number and/or email is included with that "Sun Bear" testimony.

FYI, yes the skiing was good today, but the whole day was also a reminder of the grim reality of winter...

We saw at least five deer that had been hit by cars this morning on the way up to the mountain, two were still alive, sitting in the deep snow watching cars whiz by while slowly waiting for death, bleeding, facing starvation or freezing, or perhaps a quicker end later tonight by a roaming coyote pack. Was very sad, but then again, am reminded that God provides for even the coyotes and ravens.

On our way home we passed a big SUV upside down in the snow, EMS was on scene...lights flashing, lots of people standing around....

Can't take our days for granted, especially in winter.
Constance 11:25pm (previous day)

Wow. I got a very ominous feeling when reading this list and their "accomplishments". Quantum holographics jumped out.

google found this:
by Pere Ribalta-Puig

Dinner would be great sometime. I'm waiting for a friend to give me a book she has called "Follow The Christ". I'd love to get that and then make dinner plans to see what it entails.

I bought an old book today: The Small Community Foundation of Democratic Life, What it is and how to achieve it by Arthur E. Morgan (1942) are you familiar with it or the author? Thumbing through it, it appeared NAgey.

Interesting Suzette, you do realize Obama used Conversational Hypnosis and Neurolinguistic programming?
Speaking of transhumanism, I found some pretty interesting things on the DARPA website a number of months back. Don't remember where I searched, but this is pretty bizarre:

Talk about "all-seeing eye" ( I'm thinking of your blog)


Thanks for that link to the EU youtube video. It was very appealing to me and I can see how it is targeted to those in my age group.

I especially liked the shot of Obama at the end... oh and the EU stars encircling the globe.... "The times they are a'changing!"
Hi Oldmanoftheski,
I'm home tonight and possibly tomorrow and Sun Bear packet is at my office. Can you email me at and include the phone numbers? That would help me out as I want to start promoting it if we can do it.


Has anyone researched this? On p.30 of the pdf it calls itself a movement.

or -


HolacracyOne was launched in early 2007 to help accelerate and support Holacracy's growth in the world.

IONS has aired a radio show with it's founder Brian J Robertson and Unity Churches are introducing it into their practises.

I don't know if it's marketing spin or whether there is a serious NA and corporate interest it.

Apologies for being so inarticulate, it's new to me and I'm trying to fathom where it's at and where it might be leading as it does seem to have a new world order air about it.

Davis also wrote (under the pen name Jane Dunlap) a classic of psychedelic literature, Exploring Inner Space: Personal Experiences Under LSD-25, which Harcourt also published in 1961. According to the book's dust jacket, "Dunlap" volunteered to be the subject of a medically supervised study employing lysergic acid diethylamide, or LSD-25, and to record in detail her visions while under the drug's influence.

Interesting that Adelle Davis, who was against the junk in foods then would submit to this nonsense. what a bunch of junk. anyway found this at wikepedia when I looked her up

Council on Spiritual Practices

Religion and Psychoactive Sacraments:
An Entheogen Chrestomathy
Thomas B. Roberts, Ph.D. and Paula Jo Hruby, Ed.D.
Author Index | Title Index

Exploring Inner Space: Personal Experiences Under LSD-25.

Dunlap, Jane. (1961).
New York: Harcourt, Brace & World.

Note: Jane Dunlap is a pseudonym for Adelle Davis who is better known for her books on natural foods and nutrition.

Excerpt(s): The author of this book volunteered to be the subject of [a medically supervised study] employing lysergic acid diethylamide, or LSD-25. Her duty was to record in detail her visions while under the drug. ... Exploring Inner Space is highly individual-unlike any book ever published. It is impossible to predict its effect upon the reader. Some may find it merely an intriguing account of a mind roving dramatically free; others may react to its emotional range-from sheer terror to utter bliss; still others may find here the spiritual response they have never been able to articulate for themselves. (dust jacket)
I found that link a few days ago as I was researching "mysticism"... Here's an interesting one. I know most of you are probably familiar with MKUltra, but this is interesting in light of Transhumanism and some of the Darpa stuff:
and this:
so transhumanism and concious evolution are the other side of the assisted suicide coin. It's all about man trying to play God..

now this links transhumanism with consciousness evolution..
and this is probably the weirdest:

and then you have singulartarianism:

and you'll love this Maryanne, the Obama sun rays..

And this site, Kurzweil's you have to take a careful look at.


This is kind of chilling.. It's a video on "singularity".. glad we know the real end of the story:

It's amazing to see so many highly educated people being so highly deceived


You said:
"Wow. I got a very ominous feeling when reading this list and their "accomplishments". Quantum holographics jumped out.

google found this:
by Pere Ribalta-Puig"


I rapidly glimpsed through some of the pages on that site. Very very frightening!

A couple words and phrases jumped out at me though I'm clueless about what they were getting at:

The Tao is One.
One showed its dual Nature.
Duality manifested itself as Trinity.
And the Trinity multiplied to Infinity, One (The Alpha and the Omega).

CERN-antimatter versus the spirit
Fractals (a quartz crystal is an example of a fractal, which concerns sacred geometry, though I don't really know what that is-emphasis mine),
As Above, so Below
Electromagnetic fields and the micro cosmos

There is also a lot of discussion there about the spirit versus matter (same theme I've mentioned before, in which New Agers associate matter with the God of creation, and thus matter needs to be overcome).

Sadly, many people desperate to have better heath or freedom from pain, seek help from these people.

This site is very vague about the therapy used, though they say there is no connection to a machine or anything like that.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are crystals used here as part of the therapy, (they were pretty evasive about the actual therapy),and I'd like to draw attention to something OLDMANOF THESKI mentioned a few threads back and I quote:

"There’s all kinds of NA claims put forth about the supposed healing properties of crystals, their natural and supernatural energy fields and so forth. Scientific research has not been able to find any extra ordinary or even measurable energy fields around crystals. But regardless of the findings of science, goofy New Age mystic wannabe’s continue to make outlandish claims about the uses for each kind of crystal, i.e. healing or channeling, quiet meditation or physical activity, going so far as to claim they can even identify the “sexual orientation” of the specific minerals.

Nearly everyone understands that Faith Healing comes from faith, and of course, while the effects of faith can be readily observed, (as has been noted quite often in the medical community), we are totally incapable of measuring faith scientifically. (For example, how much faith is equal to a mustard seed?)

But there is one claimed property of crystals that I would sincerely like to have more input about…

Keep in mind, just last week Constance posted the Donald Keys thread, which linked to a website put up by a woman who has spent considerable time planting crystals all over the globe, from Mt. Shasta and the Canadian Rockies, to old Inca temple sites in Peru, in the belief that she is setting markers for specific “stargates”.

"Deep" New Agers, (as opposed to the superficial feel good types), those who are deeply committed, like "Auntie Alice" and “Uncle Benny” Crème (demonically inspired, deluded, possessed), claim that crystals are a powerful talisman, a focal point for channeling directed supernatural, but as yet, scientifically immeasurable energy. In other words, the effects are observable, but not measurable.

Now if crystals really can be used as an amplifier for channeling entities from a “higher” realm, as NA’ers claim, then what about our liquid crystal computer and television displays? "


I would not be surprised if there actually is some sort of unmeasurable energy attached to crystals, especially liquid crystals. Here is a re-hash of some of the ways that liquid crystals are used in science from Wikipedia:

“Liquid crystal sheets are often used in industry to look for HOT SPOTS, MAP HEAT FLOW, measure stress distribution patterns, and so on. Liquid crystal memory units with extensive capacity were used in Space Shuttle navigation equipment.”

That sounds pretty significant to me!
The other night my husband and I watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of the 13 Crystal Skulls. While the legend of these skulls is certainly a myth, I am convinced that there's always a thread of truth injected into these movies in order to pre-condition people, especially since it was produced by New Ager George Lucas.

At the end of the movie Indiana Jones tells his son, "The treasure they were seeking wasn't gold- it was knowledge."

At one point in the movie, the evil Russian woman with the psychic abilities tells Indy, "The crystal stimulates an unused portion of the human brain to stimulate physic abilities".

Jeez. Is that what these quacks are trying to do to people?

So in answer to David in Battle Creek, regarding the year 2012 phenomenon, don't underestimate the kinds of forbidden knowledge in the fields of bio-technology and quantum physics that these demonic people have come up with over the years. Lord only knows how much damage they have already done to innocent victims, who inadvertently may have opened themselves up to demonic activity as a result of simply seeking healing from anorexia!

I never was much of a believer in anything weird or paranormal until this past summer, when my husband and I had the strangest experience of our lives at a secluded farmhouse. I now am a believer in demonic activity, and to not believe that it exists, leaves one open to the possibility of being taken in by it.

With that in mind, I don't seek it- I try to avoid it like the plague. These various sites, like the other one that Suzette found about conversational hypnosis are as demonic as they get.
Took a closer look at the serendipity site I posed earlier. It's not a good site. While there are things on there that might be true, it's not a credible source. Sorry about that. I should have paid more attention.

Having said that there were mind control programs that existed, and we can probably assume that they still exist in some other form today:

Actually, i liked Tigers Milk cookies,and i turned out perfectly normal!!!LOL

In the mid 80s i worked at the largest health food co-op in the western hemisphere in Tempe Arizona. It was called The Gentle Strength Co-op. Unlike most co-ops it had a large separate building,(learning center). In reality "indoctrination center".

They offered classes in everything "new age", including re-birthing, reiki,all forms of yoga, ti chi, eastern religion etc.

That's were i got my education in new age beliefs, and iv seen it all.

At the same time, i was attending a church in Scottsdale, were the pastor was an avid researcher into the new age movement, global government et al. He had read Constance's books, and they were recommended reading for the assembly.

Id met some true insiders over the years, and read many new age writings, as well as sitting in on some classes on alternative healing modalities.

The problem is, these places are were people run when they are feed up with western medicine. They come in seeking alternatives, and are susceptible to all the other things that come with the natural food, and supplements sold there.

When witnessing to new agers, you are dealing with the same religious spirit that people become bound to in any other cult.

The ego is so nourished by the doctrines which teach that they are "gods", or at least "in process" that they are intoxicated by these seducing religious spirits.

They can of course be saved, as all of us were lost at one time.Iv met quite a few ex new age folks who are now in Christ!!!

In Yahushua Mark
I was thinking over the digital conversion issue, Obama's speech, my limited understanding of the technology and all the discussions we've had on mind control along with Constance's post on her very bad feeling about the digital conversion.

a) Obama said in the speech discussed here, that broadband would be expanded to remote areas (his reason was so that a person there could compete with someone in Beijing)

b)digital signal is significantly smaller than analog, you can fit 10-12 times the info into the same space

c) a cable box, dvr, cable ready tv, converter box, whatever piece of equipment you use, is a computerized version of a decoder ring. Whatever signal or data that is sent is decoded or unscrambled and then sent to your tv screen. Any data can be sent as long as it fits in the bandwidth. As long as the reciever at the other end has the program, it can decode it. Much more information is sent that we see on our screens, the data that tells a program when to start, when to stop, when to air a commercial, it's just like computer language, it's going on in the background all the time and it looks much different than the picture or words that are appearing on the screen. They can send any data they want. It could be targeted to specific persons (think Bourne Identity) or a mass subliminal message - this is my conclusion, not that of the telecomm worker who only explained the mechanics of it.

d) there's allot of information about mass hypnosis, technological hypnosis, holograms, mind control, and on and on. A good program on this is Dr. Stan Monteiths The Dark Awakening that aired earlier this month.

e) there's many people saying Jesus or The Messiah, The Christ, will return and make an appearance on TV. A man in our church said he thought that too - maybe he's been watching Pat Robertson!

f) if you're going to use a digital or technological version of hypnosis you would have to have that technology in the homes of almost all of the people - the reason for the expansion of broadband.

When I was first told about the delay by a telecomm worker his statement was "Obama has decided to put off the digital switch because he said the American people aren't ready yet." That hit me.

When googling the Obama stance on this, it doesn't say that verbatim, it's that they have run out of coupon money, many people still have old TV's and it would affect (leave out) a significant portion of the population. I posted this article earlier on this thread.

And, to top it off, fibre-optics, through which most cable and internet are distributed is data sent in the form of light.

We're off to church. Sorry if this was hastily done.

Y.G. 8:42 A.M.

When i studied homeopathy,i learned its action is subatomic. The remedy is the subatomic profile of the original substance. According to Abogados Law, after a series of 12 dilutions, there is not one molecule of the original substance left in the remedy.

I believe crystals probably function the same way. Sub Atomically. They are things our Abba created. They are not evil in, and of themselves. Its the intent, and application of those who use them, that they become a channel for evil spirits. Especially when they are used ceremonially, in an array.

Just because scientist cant find any energy associated with homeopathic remedies, or crystals, does not mean there isn't any. Are they looking for sub atomic energy?

Anyone having a medical procedure using a laser, is affected by the energy of a crystal.

Your study of liquid crystal displays, fractals etc. is very interesting, and probably is being used in some insidious way.
From MINA (01/09/09):

Slovenia registered the lowest temperatures ever. At the Bohin resort, a half frozen weatherman standing outside, reported minus 49°C.

Slovenian Media have reported recommendations of the meteorological institute of Germany, which alarms over the risks of having piercings – the metal earrings on people’s body could cause dangerous freezing.

No metal objects attached to the body should be worn, warns the media, for people who must venture outside. For everyone else, Slovenian media urges its citizens to stay in their homes.
Rose and Shem1777

Thank you and all those who posted on the euthenasia aspect of the eugenics movement. I have "lightly" studied eugenics, but most of my research focused on the slow sickening death of the masses via fluoride, aspartame and such. I have thousands of pages of research on fluoride. I was unaware of this very direct assualt through modern medicine.

It was astounding but not surprising. I thank you for bringing your personal stories here for us. I am so sorry for your losses. Maybe it's my age, but we have seen allot of death in the last few years. My cousin died at 42 after a 7 year battle with breast cancer. We were there when she passed and morphine was administered for her pain by my Aunt who is an RN and her mother. I find it incredible to think she may have eased her own daugther out of this world, although it was hard to watch her painful struggle as she got to the near comatose/rapid breathing state. I have allot more to think about now with your experiences. I just don't know what to think about my cousins passing in light of this information but I am very glad to understand yet another prong of the all out assault on humanity.

Hi Constance,

Just a thought.

I am all for consuming a healthy diet for all the right reasons, but it is to be noted that Buddhist vegetarianism may have been originally founded primarily on their idea of reincarnation.

Buddhists believe that after death, the soul of a human may inhabit an animal.

LOL It DOES give one a whole new appreciation for the meaning of "YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT," does it not?
DaveinBC 9:27am

Amazing find.

I glanced at the Feb 09 issue of Popular Mechanics and one story is: Frozen Alive! Bringing Cardiac-Arrest Patients Back from the Dead. The U of Penn Hospital has the Penn Center for Resusitation Science where Theraputic Hypothermia is being used and studied.

JB in CO 10:01am

Thank you for posting this. I studied the environmental toxin aspect of the New Age before I understood the rest of the story. I posted quite some time ago about the pharmakia spoken of in the Bible. There's a great video on the psychotropic drug industry, the DVD is free by mail although I was slightly put off by the fact that the group alerting people to this danger is the Church of Scientology. I don't know anything about them, I think that's the religion of Tom Cruise and John Travolta? But they aren't held in high regard. However their presentation on the psychiatric industry's push for mandated testing along with compulsory drug treatment is well worth considering.

Their site

Thank you for giving us a "from the horses mouth" testimony on the medical practice.

Shem1777, I agree on getting ourselves as free of the need for conventional medicine or anything that you believe you must have to survive. Any dependence is a point of weakness for exploitation. God told us to look at the lilies of the field and how He cares for them, how much more will He care for us. We are all going to have to learn to rely on Him for everything. Just like the Israelites in the wilderness.

Matthew 28 ASV
25 Therefore I say unto you, be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment?

26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value then they?

27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto the measure of his life?

28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

In the coming times ahead God will be our only source, as He should be.

Thanks for all the info on Rick Warren and Pat Robertson, I know many friends, family, church members, who believe these two are on the up and up (and Joel O.) I am going to put some print outs together for them, my telling them just won't cut it.

peacebringer 10:59pm

No I hadn't heard of Obama using conversational hypnosis or even heard of it until this post, and Neurolinguistic programming, but I heard the reports of women fainting and such in his presence. Is there some article on his use of these techniques? I was just reading the blog and my email alert pop up had one of those ads and it caught my eye, otherwise I would have just deleted it with the rest of the junk.

Young Grasshopper 8:42am

You're braver than I, I looked at the links at the bottom of his page, they were almost imperceptable, faded to almost white and very small but that was enough for me. I knew this was a scary site. Also if you link to the site that came as spam, the photo of that guy will leave you chilled. Notice his hands, I learned that the displacement of the fingers is a NA signal.

I found this throughout some "bible" story books that were given to my children! They are also full of occult symbols, one of them being the circle of eternity that Rudi posted on a previous thread. I have been meaning to put it together but haven't. It's difficult just to read the blog. But for a starter, a publication by this particular "Christian" group has a picture of Mary on the cover with the circle of eternity framing her. It is not a Catholic group, in fact they are some of the last people you'd expect to be highlighting Mary. I could post more, but I am waiting on some more material and don't wish to jeopardize my getting it. I will put this together as soon as possible.

"as above, so below" is a Hermetic saying. The physical stance for this is with one hand index finger pointing up and the other down, arms outstretched - the Baphomet goat. Reminds me of John Travolta in Saturday Night Live....

This saying is in The Message Bible in the Lord's prayer passage.

Matthew 6:7-13 (The Message)
"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this:

Our Father in heaven,
Reveal who you are.
Set the world right;
Do what's best— as above, so below.
Keep us alive with three square meals.
Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.
Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.
You're in charge!
You can do anything you want!
You're ablaze in beauty!
Yes. Yes. Yes.

This doesn't sound like a prayer to Our Lord, it sounds like a way to sumon demons and glorify Lucifer!

I first heard of that in a video found on Dr. Monteith's website but don't remember which one, he has so many.

Hello, I'd love to ask you a few questions about some other posts, but dinner calls. Do you have email? I can provide mine, is there a way to do that privately? I won't be offended if you say no.

Joyce 12:02,

Yeah, that DARPA site is really creepy. Must be real nice for soldiers to realize that soon their thoughts will not be their own.

Exploring new frontiers- going where man has never gone before.

Now I know why I never liked Star Trek.
Shem/Marc 10:51

I completely agree with you. Crystals are part of God's creation. It's how they are being used and who is using them that is significant.

I was re-reading the Book of Enoch last night, where crystals are mentioned more than once. All I can say is those first chapters 10-20 are so very relevant to the spiritual warfare we are seeing today.

Thanks Shem, for pointing me in the right direction regarding crystals.

Susanna 1:52

LOL. No wonder I have become totally disenchanted with eating meat and poultry!
Suzette 3:17,

I'm not brave at all. I'm a chicken little and a coward that goes around screaming "The sky is falling down!"

The people here who know me a little better can attest to my reluctance to look at anything weird or hypnotic. I had to learn the hard way, lol. I have been told by church members that I do have a gift of discernment, and I do pray for that every single day in the hopes that I won't be deceived in any way, shape or form. I hope my prayers are working. I glanced quickly through the material on the site, without reading it. Certain things jumped out at me. That's all. No chutzpa, where I'm concerned.

The Message Bible? Good grief Charlie Brown!

Our Father in heaven,
Reveal who you are.
Set the world right;
Do what's best— as above, so below.
Keep us alive with three square meals.
Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.
Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.
You're in charge!
You can do anything you want!
You're ablaze in beauty!
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Whooppee! And let the saints come marching in! Or "Laissez les bonnes temps roulez!", as they say in New Orleans.

That is one scary bible! So much for having the Holy Word messed with!

Lord help us!

Thanks for your post and your insight.


I know that you left lots of good links about transhumanism; I'm hoping to check them later.

My Internet's been up and down for the past couple weeks. Soooo frustrating. The cable guy's been called out today. If I don't always respond, and miss something someone addressed to me, hopefully no one will think I am rude.

Mariel (4:30)--

Although I don't have the full book, a look at the table of contents seems to bolster the comments here on how the NA is infiltrating the medical professions. Go to the picture on the right side and click on the TOC link.


Also, this excerpt from a book, "Unmasking the New Age," opens with something similary to a link that I had sent to YG/Maryanne regarding NA education of children.,M1


Holistic health and psychology are two of the topics listed in the TOC.

Great paper on human RFID-chipping:


Some comments that especially stood out for me were "chips melded into children's bodies," and
“You can’t get
a better ID card than one you can put under the skin”.

Notice that Kevin Warwick, who implanted himself, described as "awesome," some seemingly altered-consciousness episodes connected with the RFID chip.

It's already known that the chip can cause cancerous lesions in animals--compare this with the "noisesome sore" mentioned in the Bible.

Notice sections 4.1.1. and 4.1.2.

4.1.1 Citizen Universal Lifetime Identifier
"The most basic security application for humancentric RFID in
the current state of development involves control over personal


4.1.2 Location-Based Services
Notice the "Digital Angel" which has been mentioned here before.

This paper was written in 2005 and was accepted for publication in 2006. Think how much the technology has advanced in 4 years.

You quoted earlier:

"But for a starter, a publication by this particular "Christian" group has a picture of Mary on the cover with the circle of eternity framing her. It is not a Catholic group, in fact they are some of the last people you'd expect to be highlighting Mary."

Just this past week, I watched these videos by Roger Oakland.

I believe the one called "Another Jesus?" will answer your questions about Mary.
This comment has been removed by the author.
"I am all for consuming a healthy diet for all the right reasons, but it is to be noted that Buddhist vegetarianism may have been originally founded primarily on their idea of reincarnation."

I'm actually indebted to the nuns in Catholic school (I was about 8 at the time) for that fact.
Lots of good info HERE although I haven't been through it all very carefully (caveat). Some decent discussion on the roots of Buddhism and Hinduism (related).
PS I might add that I do have areas of disagreement with the above link.
I haven't finished catching up but I went to Bible Gateway to look up a scripture and this is the verse of the day:

Psalm 118:5-6 (American Standard Version)

5 Out of my distress I called upon Jehovah: Jehovah answered me and set me in a large place.

6 Jehovah is on my side; I will not fear: What can man do unto me?

Just thought that God was particularly awesome in pointing that out today.


Can you please take a look at this post that came up when I was looking for images of the EU? It's legalease and I'm lost.

also image at the top of the page is interesting, picture of the year

Dear Roma and others:

So LSD was what Adelle Davis was "eat[ing] right to keep fit"!!!
And to think she was doing this during the years my mother was forcing her horrible concoctions down my throat. My mother's Adelle Davis inspired "bone meal pan cakes" were the all time worst. She made us eat every bite before allowing us to leave for school. Like a good mother she fed us all before eating herself. When we arrived home from school, she confessed she had taken one bite and tossed all the rest away. We never let poor Mom forget it! We threatened to put the recipe on her tombstone. Good thing Adelle Davis is not around to catch -- I'd have lots more in for her than the New Age Movement -- like attempted poisoning of minors! LOL

Dear Shem:

Thanks! You had some rare insights -- Mom didn't have the "Tiger's Milk Cookies" -- she had this awful stuff in a tall can as I recall it that might have been mixed with either milk or water. Mom read Adelle Davis and started following her nutritional theories when I was in the 5th grade. If only I knew then what I know now! But, I do like yogurt!

Hope nobody misses the videos about Eugenics on Old thinker news site. They talk a bit about vaccinations, it seems to be a great way to implement RFID some day. First get to a point where all are accepting vaccines in the world. Then, what's one more shot? This is the NA as some are discussing medical. They are very intertwined. I saw a video with Rick Warren trying to explain to a panel of people (representing liberal aithiests trying to do good around the world?) that the church should not be scoffed and it should actually be promoted because it is the distribution center. He said it over and over again until some of them were saying it back to him. Yah, great, that what the church needs to be, a distribution center for the NA to implement what ever they can squeaze out of a needle.
say anyone, what do we get from dan. 11:41 concerning a safe place to go to for protection from antichrist in the last days? is this for real? can it be?? T.T. EDOM,MOAB,and AMMON?

connie, do you rember this guy
Hope your internet gets fixed..That is frustrating..

Suzette you can send your email.

I did miss that video.. but I'll take a look.

I'm very suspicious of all of our "benevolent" vaccination programs. Vaccines have terrible stuff in them but we've been brainwashed to think that we are safeguarding our health with them. There are studies that really question this. For example the statistics used to prove the end of various epidemics showing vaccines were successful when in fact the epidemic was already declining.

Vaccines and amalgams both contain the most toxic substance on earth, mercury. Now, I don't believe all doctors and dentists believe they are doing harm. It's just the education in the medical schools paid which are funded by the pharmaceutical companies, the same schools that teach nothing about nutrition. There has been a push to limit vitamins and minerals. I won't even start to talk about chemotherapy, which destroys the body, although it might kill cancer cells too. There are many well-meaning people that don't understand that way medicine is practiced is not necessarily always for our good. A lot of it has to do with profits and who knows what else?

Vaccines are probably largely responsible for the autoimmune diseases that we have today. The trigger a side of the immune system that teaches the body to attack itself instead of encouraging God-given natural immunity. There has been a lot written on all this, so I don't want to take up too much space here on it, but I will say that vaccines contain things like chicken embryos. Would we knowingly shoot chicken embryos and mercury into our bodies?

I have many questions about the funding and research in the medical/pharmaceutical industry.. It's definitely not neutral. Our system has corruption built into it and there are very few neutral parties who determine how research is done.

With the fellow from Monsanto become the new Secretary of Agriculture what can we expect. Monsanto the creators of aspartame and genetically modified foods...oh yes, change we can believe in:

Monsanto has learned how to keep control over the world food supply. Excuse my lack of trust but...more info on Monsanto:

Rev. 6:6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the afour living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”

Eli Lilly the makers of Prozac were sued many years ago and won, but most of the kids who did mass killings at schools were taking anti-depressants.

In the 90s Lilly was sued but won because the people that take antidepressants are usually people that already are suffering with some emotional problems, therefore it was tough to prove the case against Lilly.

Again, I'm not saying doctors do this deliberately, but companies that profit from the sale of these drugs, might not be as neutral as they pretend.

Okay, I'll get off this soapbox now..

Oh, I'll just add one more thing...Our history has a long history of freedom to bear arms.. Why do you suppose in the last several years there is such a high incidence of shoot shootings? Are the guns the problem or the mental state of the kids commit these horrific killings?

For those of us who are concerned about where the US is heading, we know this cannot happen except with gun control.

With the downturn in the economy will we see more of these medications prescribed? I suspect the answer could be yes.

Sorry, but it's just such an intriguing subject when you start looking at the implications:

I'll let you decide.

Found it Bill.. Yes, a must watch.

Here's the World Future Society's magazine which relates to our conversaton:

Thanks Joyce,

It turned out to be a cut cable. Same thing happened a few months ago. If I was the paranoid sort, I'd think someone doesn't want me to use the Internet, LOL!

I can't help you with legal ease but the image at the top of the Wiki commons page of the POTY Barnstar which you linked to here,

was the photo of the year for 2 successive years. I think it was probably chosen as a response to the censoring of all usage of images on the internet of the Atomium in Brussels. (Constance, of course, would be the better person to explain the FAIR USE DOCTRINE to you).

The Atomium is from the 1957 world's fair, revamped a few years back. It's more than just a curious piece of architecture. The Atomium is an iron molecule magnified 165,000,000,000 times and turned into a huge building. Inside there are restaurants, shops, museums and an observation deck. The Atomium was designed from the body-centered cubic crystal structure of iron. (Here again, we have the use of a crystal again,as well as fractal geometry).

Very odd to me , that they have made such a huge issue out of having the image of the structure reproduced, but then again, I'm a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
By the way, Suzette,

The easiest way for me to try to understand a fractal is that it is a structure, in which its own image is recreated within the original structure to infinity, using simple geometry, such as connecting the opposite sides with a straight line. The structure repeats to infinity using the same geometry within the structures. Think of a fern, or a snowflake or the webbing inside of certain plants, or a broccoli floret, and how the pattern keeps repeating within the original shape of the structure. Look at the picture of the shell on the Emergent Church link, a few threads back. That spiral is also a fractal, I believe, but I'm no expert so don't quote me, lol!

At least that's my simplistic way of thinking of fractals. The math is much more complicated obviously.
I realized in my effort to read and respond to everything that I completely hogged up the blog. I apologize and have decided to take my (closed) business website and put it to the Lord's work. I'll try to keep my posts short and have short comments here.

I'd love some input, everyone here has such a wealth of info, more than I could ever cover. I know we won't all agree on doctrine and theories I present or put up there, but if anyone would like to pick a particular area that they are well versed in, I'd love to include your work on that there. I haven't converted it yet, but I'm working on my first page and will hopefully put it up tonight. I'm thinking of calling it The Word and the world, if that name isn't already taken.

Joyce 12:02am re Darpa

OM! Interesting the technology was related to something from Star Wars. But overwhelmingly creepy, Orwellian and demonic. Can't you just see people getting a god-complex and rushing to be hardwired to become a better killing machine? I wonder what irreversible damage will be done in the process, both physically and psychologically, spiritually? Freaky find!

My apologies again
The BlogHog
How can vaccines be all that bad? Are you saying the polio vaccine which saved countless lives and ended what was a nasty scurge (or is it scourge) was an NA plot? No way! It was a plot to save lives.

There are many diseases kept in check due to these viruses that have plagued mankind for centuries. Would I subject my children to the horrors of polio or other diseases like measles? No way!

I have an autistic child who showed symptoms prior to any immunizations (I don't care what Jenny McCarthy says). You can't convince me vaccine programs are part of a new age plot.

David in B.C.
Rose, re Scientology

Eeeks! I know why they are so fringe. As soon as I starting reading your post I thought,this is New Age. However, I would say as someone who has seen the expansion of the pychiatric field up close and personal, I believe the information as presented in the video was well worth looking at. We know the evils of science and medicine and it's tie into the NWO NAM but not all medical professionals and psychiatrists are evil NAgers. The overall direction of this area, like most, is heading in a NWO/NA direction. Psychiatry, with it's obvious ability to do serious mind altering damage to people, especially relevant to the topic here, appears to be a subject well worth keeping tabs on.

I very much appreciate your posting this. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until I know for certain otherwise (that can be a dangerous and easily exploitated characteristic) so I had previously considered Scientology just an odd religion. Odd that's for sure, but it is more than that - it is absolutely New Age!

But the video is still worth seeing, as Constance says, take the wheat and leave the chaff.

Thanks for expanding my knowledge!
I haven't had any phone calls or knocks on the door yet, hopefully it will stay that way!

Anon 1:13am re Daniel 11:41

Jesus is the ark.

Heard that from David Eels. He's got a lot of interresting and detailed explanations of scripture, I wouldn't endorse everything, (I never do) but he makes some valid points. The aforementioned rang true. However, there is much talk of escape, and I have wondered if there should be a physical place of refuge, that they can't find on GPS, radar, satelite, microwave, infrared, RFID, soundwave or whatever they're using. I don't think there is such a place anymore. God would have known this so He must have The Way for us already worked out.


I agree you most likely got some great info from them. You are right not everyone is in science is a new ager. I just wanted to let you know who they were so you could screen it better. I am glad you have not had anyone knocking at your door yet….LOL

Anon 4:55pm re Another Jesus

Great video, I've heard his sermons (through podcasts) but never seen the videos, it's good to put a face to the voice. I'm listening now.

The Masks of Christ: Behind the Lies and Cover-ups About the Life of Jesus (Touchstone Books) (Paperback)
by Lynn Picknett (Author), Clive Prince (Author)

two customer reviews at

a review excerpt from a Hande Z-

"The two most important points made concern the birth of Jesus and his resurrection. These are the two of the most important aspects of the Christian faith. Pinknett and Prince examined the synoptic gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, and the Gospel of John and set out very clearly how the "inerrant word of God" contradicted itself in these crucial matters. Mathew's version says Jesus was born in the time of Herod the Great. Undisputed historical records showed that Herod the Great died in 4 BCE (or BC as the Christians say). However, Luke's gospel,which also had a similarly elaborate story of Jesus' birth, set it in the time of the Roman census in the time of Quirinius, the Roman governor of Syria. That census did not take place until 10 years after the death of Herod the Great. Not only were the plot in the stories differ (one said Jesus' parent fled to Egypt immediately after the birth of Jesus because Herod wanted to kill all male infants under the age of 2; the other said that There was great rejoicing when Jesus was born and there was no fleeing to Egypt), the date of birth took place 10 years apart. Matthew and Luke elaborated in detail the tracing of Jesus' lineage to King David (so as to prove the Old Testament prophecy that the Messiah will come from David)but the two lineages are entirely different. Even if one can accept the apologist argument that the describe lineages are "roughly" the same (the authors here showed why that argument is wrong)and are not unaccepteable just because a few names have been left out, many important questions would still have to be answered. Can the Bible still be regarded as containing the "inerrant word of God"? By what criteria does one verify stories and interpretations of such stories?"

and then from RBSProds-
(another excerpt)

"The book gets off to a rocky start in Paragraph 1 of Chapter 1 by stating "primary eyewitnesses of {H}is life and pivotal death" left "no written testimony", when it is clear that biblical authors Peter (two New Testament letters) and "John the beloved disciple" (the Fourth Gospel and 3 New Testament letters) were personally called by Jesus to be disciples, knew Him very well, and wrote first person accounts found in the Bible. Later in the book it is admitted that Peter was a direct disciple of Jesus, but no word on his scriptual writings, leaving it up to the uninitiated reader to find that out on their own. A minor, but relevant point is that they state there are 'millions' of Christians who "still believe", when there are actually over 2 Billion actively practicing Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and smaller Christian denominational members. Trust me, most Christians will be able to easily refute the points made in this book from memory, without cracking a Bible."

You can get an idea what kind of book it is.
Drudge carries this shocking and completely unexpected story from the Washington Times-

Obama climate czar has socialist ties
Group sees 'global governance' as solution
Stephen Dinan (Contact)

Heh, who would've seen that one coming?!!
Maryanne, haven’t had time to finish “The Shack” yet, but just passed the part where Sarayu (the little Asian “holy spirit” woman) tells Mack, whilst gardening, that she enjoys using “fractals” to make things (i.e. like all of Creation?)

Dave in B.C. Re: Autism and vaccines…the jury is still out on that one. People feel the need to pinpoint a cause, so there’s been a groundswell of blame thrown in the direction of vaccines and the pharmaceutical industry. My own son almost died from complications from the Hep B vaccine given shortly after his birth, and by the time my daughter was born a few years later, they had stopped giving that vaccine to newborns. I understand now they have resumed the practice using a newer “less risky” vaccine.

Perhaps vaccines or our hormone rich chemically polluted diets really are a contributing factor in some cases of autism, in others, no relationship. There are people with autism in other countries where vaccines are still unheard of, let alone widely prescribed. Yet the incidence of autism continues growing at an alarming rate world wide.

As far as western medicine and the pharmaceutical industry goes, another blogger here, I think named “Shem”, put his finger on the problem, our over reliance on PHARMAKIA. I’ve tried a variety of rx blood pressure medications, and while many of them indeed lowered my BP, each one I tried gave me some severe side effects that I could not live with. The Ace Inhibitors are synthetically produced compounds originally derived from the VENOM of a South American PIT VIPER, and those compounds were especially troublesome for me. They gave me a cough which prevented sleep, and lasted for months even after I quit taking the medication. I switched to another rx BP medication which altered, and then almost completely destroyed my sense of "taste".

Other BP medications affected me in other adverse ways. Some side effects of these commonly prescribed compounds can be permanent. My family physician basically said, “Pick one, live with the side effects, or have a stroke.”

But I refused, and began self medicating with natural remedies, including herbals such as Hawthorn. Together with lots of exercise, less salt, a better diet, have gotten my BP down to less than severe risk.

And yes, I credit both acupuncture and chiropractic care with keeping me (so far) from having to go under the surgeon’s knife and fuse several vertebrae in my neck. Both “questionable” techniques worked wonders for me in reducing chronic pain without the use of drugs. (By the way, my acupuncturist is Chinese, and a Christian.)
Mercury in vaccines,

Notice the amount in FLU shots. And the flu mist contains 2 of the DNA markers for the bird flu (guest on Dr. Stan) They push the flu shots on - the elderly, the young, those with compromised immune systems...

Why did the government study Fluoride, Nitrates, Cyanide and Uranium together?

Many pyschotropic drugs are fluoride based - it crosses the blood brain barrier. F is also an ingrediant in anesthesia

And it's in nearly every toothepaste, municipal water supply and dental product in the US and across the globe

Dave in B.C..

You might want to watch this video. It's in 4 parts:


I'm not going to try to sell you, but I'm not talking out of my hat. There are some personal case histories I could tell you about. where I know vaccines caused permanent disabilities.

I'm very sorry to hear that your child has autism. That is hard to deal with. I'm not saying that autism is only caused by vaccines, but based on the research that I've seen and some personal experience I know that vaccines can and do cause serious illness. Remember the swine flu shot in the 70s? People died from that one. I know people that have been permanently disabled because of vaccines and once you see that, you are not willing to accept the propaganda about vaccines so easily.

It's bad science. You inject the body with bad ingredients so that the immune system will react, but instead of triggering the natural T1 immunity, you trigger T2 immunity which is the side of the immune system that causes autoimmunity ( self attack). The immune system is so confused it doesn't know what is you and what is a foreign entity. Now, why would our body just begin attacking itself?

The mercury preservative used in vaccines does not belong in the human body.

When we were growing up, we had a few vaccines. Kids today are getting many vaccines and some before they leave the hospital at birth. Now kids can't go to preschool in US if they haven't had the HepB vaccine and HepB is contracted through IV drug use or promiscuous sex, so why the big push to vaccinate preschool children? They are even recommending the flu shot to kids who are much better off getting the flu and building immunity. What about the HPV where they are trying to vaccinate girls over 12 for cervical cancer..

The drug companies make a lot of money on vaccines and more money when people have autoimmune diseases for life. Sorry, but I'm not as trusting as you are and I have very good reasons.

Mercury is one of the most toxic substances on earth.. The same way people smoked cigarettes for years without knowing that they were filled with toxic substances like cadmium( another heavy metal) vaccines are filled with garbage.

Pharmaceutical companies are no more altruistic than tobacco companies.

I would not put it past the UN at all to use these to reduce the population of babies in Africa. Instead of giving people clean water, which would take care of many problems in Africa, they vaccinate people with toxic things that probably create sterility. Makes perfect sense to me when we look at the Club of Rome commissioned study on overpopulation.

The Bible says,

1John 5:19 aWe know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Whether we are talking about the pharmaceutical industry, our education system, our financial system we must always remember that it's the prince of the world who is still impacting all of these things until the day Yeshua comes back and puts His feet on Mt of Olives..

Anonymous 10:39

Thanks for the info on the book.

Sounds to me like another Gnostic duo of the same ilk (loved that word when Constance used it!)as Michael Baigent and Richard Leigh of "Holy Blood , Holy Grail" notoriety, and of which much of the material of Dan Brown's book "Da Vinci code" is an offshoot.

I suspect we'll see much more of this type of literature as the New Agers attempt to purposely cast doubt on people's belief systems.
To Anonymous 1:24 - Do I remember Alistair Crooke?

Yes! He used to work for Javier Solana. He also has been featured in some of the articles in Benjamin Creme's magazine, SHARE INTERNATIONAL.


That book was what initially piqued my interest in fractals. I know Constance did a show on the Microeffect about them once, but I didn't get a chance to listen. Wish I had, because I just find them fascinating from an artistic/creation viewpoint. (not an occult viewpoint, obviously.)If I recall, in The Shack the Asian woman representing the Holy Ghost had a name that meant 'the wind'. I thought that was interesting as well since Joyce had mentioned the Hebrew word for wind being used in conjunction with the essence of the Holy Spirit, though I'm too lazy to go back and find exactly what she said. Joyce? HOpe I didn't misquote you!

The book was obviously written by someone who had some in depth knowledge of a lot of different religions, hence the New Age overtones.

Interesting what you said here:
"The Ace Inhibitors are synthetically produced compounds originally derived from the VENOM of a South American PIT VIPER, and those compounds were especially troublesome for me."

That sort of ties back to the link I provided yesterday of the rod of Asclepius, which is the snake and staff used as the logo for the medical profession.

The symbol of medicine with the snake and staff are evidently derived from Ancient Greece actually. I read somewhere that the image is used to represent healing because it comes from the healing sanctuary dedicated to the god Apollo's son, Asclepios. He was a famous healer and was reputed to use snakes in the healing process. They let loose snakes during the night in the dormitories of the sanctuary in the hopes that they would heal the patients.

However, there are references to snakes in Exodus as well. Pharoah wore an amulet around his neck in the form of a snake. The Lord gave Moses a staff that turned into a snake to convince Pharaoh to let the people go, perhaps because God knew that the Egyptians revered snakes as symbols of authority?

Funny the drug industry would use compounds of venomous snakes for healing. Who'd a thunk it?
Lots of good links. In your opinion, with your knowledge of scriptures and mysticism, do you think it is dangerous to believe that God will use miraculous healing through Jesus Christ to care for His people? And miracles in general? Someone on the blog said it before, we're going to need all the help from God we can get to stand in these last days. This is my take, but I am attending an AoG church and there have been some remarks to their NAgeyness. I know our pastor is lead by The Lord. Yesterday was one of the best sermons I've heard. Just when I thought the church was all about milk, he served up a big juicey piece of meat - antichrist, year of the favor of the Lord versus the day of (wrath) the Lord, end times, the great apostacy...I had been thinking I might have to leave the church. Their mission statement is about as New Age as you can get - community, unity, relationship, discover, develope, deploy...but many God-loving, God-fearing believers are there.

How do I give you my email privately? It might work if I get my web page up tonight, I will have an email there.

YG 8:43am

I just ran across that pic of the Atomium yesterday for the first time in my life, what are the odds? I was looking for a pic of a statue (woman riding the beast) outside the Brussels building. And, I've got my tinfoil hat, it fits me well. LOL

If I start blogging about previous lives and spaceships, send help! LOL

How do I delete a post of my own?
Interesting that German billionaire Adolf Merckle killed himself recently. He developed his grandfather's chemical wholesale company into Germany's largest pharmaceutical wholesaler,PHOENIX Pharmahandel. Wonder why he called it that?

Hi! checking in from WA state. Currently doing well, though we have had lots of snow, rain and floods, very little of it actually affecting me, though many are suffering.

We have been plagued by one sickness after another, so I have not been around much online, though I do try to read and catch up.

One story that was really interesting to me is the one about the lead testing that will soon be required in all childrens products. I find World Net can be hyper about some things, but this story seems to check out with local vendors and other toy manufacturers.

a follow up is here:

Already one homeschool resource that I use has called for a liquidation sale on all goods used by children 12 and under, and our local tv station (King 5) featured a toy manufacturer who is unsure if she will be able to stay in business. I guess there is an internet campaign to have Congress repeal this law, which would be a very good thing as it was poorly written and regulated.

Take care everyone,


Their is also the scripture in Exodus where Moses holds the snake wrapped around the staff up so that all who look at it are healed. Jesus, The Son of Man was also lifted up that we might be healed. I would imagine the Greek to be the fake snake.


Looking at many of the vaccines given, it a child were to be stricken with some of the diseases they would merely show some cold symptoms and then be immune for life. I am sorry about your son. I have children and cannot enter into your pain but can understand it is greater than I can understand. Did you watch the videos? Many vaccines are harmful and necessary, not to take away from their original intent, it is more disturbing to see where they are going with the distribution and forcefulness of them. Remember, Rick Warren says the churches worldwide are the distribution center.

Those sound like great blogs...looking forward to them ,,,lol

Vacccines -
try this one

Bayer Knowingly Sold HIV Contaminated Vaccines Say Their Internal Documents

by Mike Adams, the Health Ranger, January 5, 2009
Key concepts: Bayer, Vaccines and HIV

Here's a little-known truth about Bayer that needs to be revisited. In 2006, it was discovered that Bayer found out a vaccine it was selling in the United States was accidentally contaminated with HIV.

In order to cover its tracks, say the journalists in this video (below), Bayer pulled the vaccines off the market and sold them to consumers in Japan, France, Spain and other countries, where hemophiliacs were then contaminated with HIV due to the vaccine.

Watch the video yourself

And yet, despite these apparent crimes, no Bayer executives ever faced arrest or prosecution in the United States.

A Bayer spinmeister had this to say: "Bayer behaved responsibly, ethically and humanely... [and its actions] were consistent with regulations."

Sure they did. Don't forget that Bayer is the same pharmaceutical company linked to Nazi Germany's medical experiments on concentration camp prisoners. They have a long and dark history of being involved in the manufacture of chemical weapons. As stated on (

" IG Farben continued to grow during the inter-war period as one of the most powerful chemical and pharmaceutical companies in the world. Products included polyurethanes and the first 'sulpha' drugs. It is during Nazi-era Germany and WW2 that IG Farben (Bayer) entered its most sinister phase. IG Farben as the leading chemical company in Nazi Germany took over chemical plants across Nazi occupied Europe, used slave-labour in their factories (including operating their own concentration camp), conducted medical experiments on those held in the concentration camps and manufactured the poison gas used to kill thousands. At the end of the war the 1945 Potsdam Agreement called for the break up of IG Farben into its constituent companies. Twelve IG Farben employees and directors were jailed for war crimes at the Nuremburg Trials."

Anybody who takes anything made by Bayer is, in my opinion, supporting a corporation that has been committing crimes against humanity for nearly a hundred years.
Anonymous 12:28 ;0)

Wow. I mean WOW. Thanks for sharing this very important info!

New health concern- Chinese drywall

Read this in the local newspaper yesterday. Right after Hurricane Charlie and in the midst of Southwest Florida's huge real estate boom in 2004-2006, some builders faced a shortage of supplies. Evidently this unregulated hideous stuff snuck into new construction.

It corrodes wires, pipes and air conditioning units in homes that are only a couple years old. It gives off a sulfurous odor. The health department is involved, but evidently officials knew about this since summer and kept it quiet until now.(Florida bureaucracy is a good old boy's network of crooks and liars, so I'm sure officials were paid to keep quiet.)

This is just dreadful for the people that bought homes that contained this stuff. In addition to buying at the height of the market, (their homes are now totally upside down in value) they now will need substantial remediation in order to remove the drywall. Many builders are refusing to admit that they used this stuff.

Regulation is a good thing, when it's fair and honest.

hi, thanks suzette for responding to my ? and concern about dan.11:35-45. The whole chapter along w/ chapt. 12 speaks out to what appears to me as referring to the time of now. Look at chapter 12! In chapt. 11 vs. 32 you see the verse constance refered to many times in the hidden dangers book as speaking to our time in the present,during the reign of antichrist. I hope others will also explore these words of chapters 11 & 12 and give some feedback to this pertinent slice of scripture. What are your thoughts constance? Does anyone ever fore-see a future exodus to any of these places spoken of in 11:41 Edom, Moab and or Ammon? How about to Israel? I don't feel so much like a old testament bible scholar and could use some help here. This study may shed light our way as to God's will for us in these end time days ahead. Maybe theres more to it and i'm off a bit or even off by a longshot. I'll watch for comments, Thanks much, in Christ. T.T.
I absolutely God does and can heal people, having said that I have noticed in some of the Pentacostal Churches there is at times an abuse of this idea of healing. We ask God for healing, believe He can but He doesn't always.. Sometimes He gives us the grace to live with things. We've lost quite a few friends this year who had faith, and had many praying for them...Should I say God failed because He didn't heal them of cancer? I don't think so..

I had a girl tell me once that someone died because they didn't pray with enough faith, to which I say nonsense...God is sovereign and He could have kept that person alive longer. He can heal people, but sometimes He takes them.

We have a friend whose daughter lives with incredible suffering. She is young but has the most amazing faith and is such a testimony. Because of her testimony, some people who were contemplating suicide changed their mind.

I'm not really answering your question directly because I'm not in a position to talk about what goes on at your church. Ask Abba to show you if this is the place where He has you for now.

As Constance or someone said, Churches, congregations, assemblies are not perfect and you might be used there to help that's not for me to say. If you arrive at a point where you can no longer stay, I think you will know.

We serve a God who has real power, but there is also counterfeit power too. Remember the magicians in Egypt. They were no match for YHVH though.. We need to test the spirits...

I think for all of us in these days, we need to develop an ear to hear God's voice through His Word and to be in prayer asking Him to guide us in wisdom ( James 1:5) and He will not let you down.

There's a lot of stuff going on out there which is troubling, which is why we have to make sure we are listening very carefully to the Word and to His voice.

Anonymous 1:57

What I find confusing about those verses in Daniel are the overlaps to Antiochus Epiphanes (also considered a little horn) who set up an abomination of desolation in the temple. He was considered an anti-christ figure and persecuted the Jews tremendously. I had been reading my NIV study bible, but switched to my Catholic bible after Susanna mentioned the books of Maccabees which are not included in the protestant bibles. These books account for a significant amount of Jewish history during the Hellenistic period, and include the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes and his desecration of the Temple, foretold in Daniel. I think they were taken out of canon during the Reformation.

So I assumed some of those verses in Daniel were applicable to that period and others to the final end times. The specific verses you talk about seem as thought they could have applied to the first desecration, but I am far from knowledgeable about the OT.

So I would be happy to hear others thoughts on the subject as well, as I find it confusing that there has already been an abomination of desolation and accompanying anti-christ figure, that is obviously separate from the final antiChrist figure to come.

You said:
"Their is also the scripture in Exodus where Moses holds the snake wrapped around the staff up so that all who look at it are healed. Jesus, The Son of Man was also lifted up that we might be healed. I would imagine the Greek to be the fake snake."

Very good point. I think the verses in Exodus may also be demonstrating that God's people have victory over the enemy- a forerunner of the saving blood of Yeshua. And like Shem said, these are God's creations- snakes and crystals. It depends who is using them and what their intentions are.

The Blog Hog 2

Suzette, I think I've got you beat. I apologize to everyone.
Here is a good sermon from brother David

or just go to, last trumpet ministries January newsletter
Gaza war shines spotlight on EU foreign policy

Today @ 17:56 CET

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The ongoing conflict in the Middle East has served to underline weaknesses in EU foreign policy, something that some analysts say will not necessarily be fixed by the bloc's planned new treaty.

This article is a intersting read. It is calling for a single voice on foreign policy decisions. It goes on to cite issues that have occured during the change from the french to the czechs. Funny, I thought they already had one?

Israel objects to Spanish PM presence at anti-war rally

Today @ 17:43 CET

As Spanish foreign minister Miguel Angel Moratinos lands in the Middle East to support a proposed Franco-Egyptian peace plan, a minor diplomatic row has broken out between Madrid and Tel Aviv over the presence of Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero at an anti-war protest over the weekend.

These guys just can't keep their disdain for Israel to themselves.


Your question re: fractals and the spiral of the half section of the chambered nautilus is answerable. The spiral of the chambered nautilus represents to NA the golden ratio of 1:1.6 simply put. This is known as the number phi, a number like pi, that has infinite expression. For NAgers it is an expression of Sacred Geometry. It is derived from the Pythagorean theorem, a squared plus b squared equals c squared. You use the theorem to calculate things like the length of a side of a right triangle.NAgers regard Pythagorus as as a wisdom master. While incorrectly credited with the discovery of the theorem, Pythagorus ran a school of the occult. His ascendency in the NA world view stems from the focus on ancient wisdom traditions.

You find a preocupation with Sacred Geometry in the education reforms of mathematics. The Annenburg Foundation (of Bill Ayers/Obama fame) promotes these math reforms. Some cable TV providers broadcast these education shows featuring students/teachers in learning situations; the lead-in shows the chambered nautilus as well as the theorem. Further evidence of the NA infiltration of classrooms.

Wayne Dyer of Public TV is a NAger who has highlighted his shows with the phi spiral. I believe the phi spiral as iconic to the NA as earth in space, the rising sun at the horizon of earth in space, and the butterfly.
Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab- or as I like to call it playing god in the 21st century.

One of life's greatest mysteries is how it began. Scientists have pinned it down to roughly this:

Some chemical reactions occurred about 4 billion years ago - perhaps in a primordial tidal soup or maybe with help of volcanoes or possibly at the bottom of the sea or between the mica sheets - to create biology.

Now scientists have created something in the lab that is tantalizingly close to what might have happened. It's not life, they stress, but it certainly gives the science community a whole new data set to chew on.

Hang on, I'm washing the horrible taste from my mouth.

UF quarterback makes John 3:16 the number 1 search on Google

University Of Florida quarterback Tim Tebow actually made "John 3:16" the number one search term on Google for a short time by wearing it in the eye black under his eyes during the BCS championship game

So why would Tim Tebow do this?

Why would he expose himself and his teammates to potential ridicule?

The truth is that Tim Tebow recognized that millions and millions of people would be looking at his face during the national championship game, and he used that opportunity to promote the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Tim Tebow is part of a dying breed of Christians who are not ashamed of the gospel.

Jesus told us that we should never be ashamed of Him or His message. In Luke 9:26, Jesus said this:

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

I thought a little good news might add some levity.

To all my friends here,

For those living in my part of the country. I hope you all are doing well, post this recent blast of wintery weather. I know a lot of snow was dropped from Illinois, through Michigan and into the north east, and there are many here who have been effected. Praying you all are safe.

Anonymous 3:54,


I think it was a couple of threads ago that I got into the dialectic and mentioned the Idealism of Plato
which has some similarities to Hinduism vis a vis its views of the material world.

I think I also mentioned "universals."

The "problem of universals" is this:

The problem of universals is about their status; as to whether universals exist independently of the individuals of whom they can be predicated or if they are merely convenient ways of talking about and finding similarity among particular things that are radically different.

Numbers are what are called "quantitative universals."

The question relevant to this discussion is: Do numbers have an independant "life of their own?" Or are they inseparable from and dependant for their actual existence upon the material things they quantify?

Pythagoras and later philosophers like Plato tended to think that numbers had an independent life of their own.

In fact:
The Pythagoreans are best known for two teachings: the transmigration of souls and the theory that numbers constitute the true nature of more....

If one believes this, one doesn't have too far to go in order to attribute magical properties to abstractions such as numbers, shapes( i.e. "Sacred Geometry.")

The view of reality (my own philosophical view and the one assumed and taken for granted by most people) called "moderate realism" which is based on common sense and begins by acknowledging that "all knowledge is rooted in sense experience" does NOT regard universals such as numbers as having an independent life of their own apart from the things they quantify.

In moderate realism, numbers only appear to have a life of their own in so far as we are able to consider numbers by themselves (apart from the things they quantify) in our minds by way of abstraction. This is how we are able to do math.

And now we come to Numerology:

Numerology is any of many systems, traditions or beliefs in a mystical or esoteric relationship between numbers and physical objects or living things.

Numerology and numerological divination were popular among early mathematicians, such as Pythagoras, but are no longer considered part of mathematics and are regarded as pseudomathematics by most modern scientists. This is similar to the historical development of astronomy out of astrology, and chemistry from alchemy.

Today, numerology is often associated with the occult, alongside astrology and similar divinatory arts. The term can also be used for those who, in the view of some observers, place excess faith in numerical patterns, even if those people don't practice traditional numerology. For example, in his 1997 book Numerology: Or What Pythagoras Wrought, mathematician Underwood Dudley uses the term to discuss practitioners of the Elliott wave principle of stock market analysis.
Young Grasshopper

Re:I had been reading my NIV study bible, but switched to my Catholic bible after Susanna mentioned the books of Maccabees which are not included in the protestant bibles. These books account for a significant amount of Jewish history during the Hellenistic period, and include the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes and his desecration of the Temple, foretold in Daniel. I think they were taken out of canon during the Reformation.

The Books of the Maccabees are believed to have been eliminated from the Old Testament canon during the "Council of Jamnia" around 90 A.D. vis a vis the rejection of the Septuagint.

Up until the Reformation, however, the Catholic Old Testament canon continued to be based on the Septuagint which included the two Books of the Maccabees.

During the Reformation, Martin Luther rejected the Septuagint in favor of the Hebrew Bible. Ergo the discrepancy in the number of books in the Catholic and Protestant Old Testament canons.

But even though the Books of the Maccabees are not included in the Protestant or Jewish Old Testament canons, they are nevertheless regarded as historically valuable by both Jews and Protestants.
for those interested, Obama sight is now taking names, addresses, etc,etc, for anyone giving a party (ball) on Jan 19th. or doing service work for M L King day.
why would they want this info, what will they do with it?
Last night my husband and I watched The Happening starring Mark Walberg. Has anyone else seen it?? If not - ***spoiler alert*** The movie is about plants communicating to one another and killing populations of people(in a nutshell) at the end of the movie - a newscaster is interviewing a scientist who said (in a nutshell) that there are too many people and this is natures way of eliminating the threat. Quotes from the end of the movie.

"This event is like the red tide in the ocean but instead of algae killing fish this happened on land. Now plants and fish just can't pick up and move like other species when they are threatened. They have only one option to rapidly evolve their chemistry."

"I believe, my opinion, a prelude a warning like the first spot of a rash, we have become a threat to this planet and I don't think anyone will argue that"

Also, the movie touched on the bees disappearing - no one knowing what is causing them to just disappear.

As one poster said here, somewhere, there always seems to be a grain of truth in the movie.

There were people talking about government doing this and causing the people to dye off.

Also, a bit of a gruesome movie - I always have to cover my eyes and turn my head when I know someone is about to be offed.

Alliance of Civilizations
Turkey at the Crossroads of Culture

International Conference
January 29-31, 2009
Social Sciences Building
Kennesaw State University
Kennesaw (Atlanta suburb), Georgia, US

Be there or be square!

From the Alliance of Economies to the Alliance of Civilizations: Turkey's Importance and Contribution

The Progressive Perception of Islam in Turkey: A Hermeneutical Approach to the Alliance of Civilizations


At noon to 2pm there will be lunch and Junaat prayer (optional)

Lots of exciting topics. The ban on headscarfs is the subject of at least three lectures (at least I didn't see any topics about climate change).
An attempt to make everything a shade of gray.
about gun rights, in open carry state, warden fires instructor.after 14 years.
"I believe, my opinion, a prelude a warning like the first spot of a rash, we have become a threat to this planet and I don't think anyone will argue that"

This statement is ludicrious, and I do argue with that. You spout New Age Garbage, This planet has always been dangerous.Through a million different ways in which you can die. This is definately not a conscious thought of a planet. New Age Garbage!!!!!!!!!!!
Yvonne -

Did you read my comment? I was quoting the movie. Re-read my message and then ask me if I am

"Spouting New Age Garbage"

I was simply quoting what was said at the end of the movie. The Quotes are NOT my own thoughts. I am offended that you have accused me of "Spouting New Age Garbage".

After watching that movie - it got me to thinking of what one poster had mentioned previously regarding a grain of truth in some movies. In my opinion - I am certain the government could "concoct" such an act and blame it on the overpopulation of the earth.

Seriously, offended.
'Beware, we are coming!'
Islamic rule 'from Alaska and Chile to South Africa'

Posted: January 11, 2009
8:24 pm Eastern

By Bob Unruh
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

Radical Muslims in Somalia are promising Islamic rule from Alaska and Chile to South Africa and from Japan to Russia, issuing the warning "Beware, we are coming," according to a media monitor

The Middle East Media Research Institute, or MEMRI, cites excerpts from television reports on the Somali terror organization Shabab al-Mujahideen that aired on Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya in recent weeks.

MEMRI monitors, translates and interprets media reports from the Middle East on critical issues including religion, terror and war.

The report said Islamic leaders spoke of their world plans in a pre-Christmas broadcast on the Middle East satellite channel Al-Jazeera.

See the incredible video on Islam that was banned in Detroit! "Obsession" shows you what they don't want you to see.

"We are defending ourselves against those who attacked us," Abu Mansour said in the report. "Once we succeed, we will fight to end oppression in other places in the world."

Added Ibrahim Al-Maqdasi, "We want to inform Bush and our rivals about our real intentions. We will establish Islamic rule from Alaska and Chile to South Africa, and from Japan to Russia. Beware, we are coming."

Somalia's move toward radical Islam has raised concern internationally. Officials in the U.S. fear American youth are being recruiting into jihad in the African nation and believe at least one already has carried out at suicide attack.

Said Mansour, "We welcome any Muslim from anywhere in the world who wants to join us. We will allow him to marry our daughters and share our crops. Many have died fighting for our cause, and others are here with us."

A separate Al-Jazeera report had a reporter describing the work of the Shabab Al-Mujahideen in Somalia, implementing Islamic Shariah law by reducing a Catholic church to rubble.

"We are a people chosen by Allah to spread the Islamic Shariah throughout Somalia," Hassan Ya'Qoub said in the report.

It cited three drug dealers who were sentenced to 40 lashes.

A report on Al-Arabiya TV shortly said Somali Islamists resemble al-Qaida "in everything, except for swearing allegiance to al-Qaida's leader, Osama bin Laden."

An unidentified man said, "I'll tell you one thing. I'll put a bullet in the head of the infidels, and I'm ready to do it. Allah willing, the 'saved sect' will lie in wait for each and every dog the infidels bring. … We will put bullets in their heads."

On Al-Jazeera, Muqtar Robow, identified as a spokesman for Shabab al-Mujahideen, said his group intends "to implement Shariah completely – every single element of it."

"Our objectives, by the grace of God, are to see the return of the Islamic Caliphate, the last of which was the Ottoman empire that collapsed in the 1920s. We want to bring that system back and govern the world with God's law," he said.

Somalia has been in turmoil for decades, and the U.S. has contributed more than half a billion dollars in aid, mostly food, in recent years. The transitional government in recent months has begun to organize.

However, the report said Robow considers the new leaders as "war criminals."

"We urge them to just repent and seek forgiveness from the Lord, and then return to the people, take up their guns, and fight the enemy they brought into the country, because the enemy forces will not listen if we ask them to leave today," he said.

***Seems Bushes warning to Obama is right on.
your right sorry to accuse you, the movie then is serious New Age Garbage.
Aren't comets a bad omen in most societies?

APPROACHING COMET: Comet Lulin (C/2007 N3) is swinging around the sun and approaching Earth for a 38-million-mile close encounter in late February. The comet is not yet visible to the naked eye, but it is putting on a nice show for backyard telescopes

Whew! I'm thankful that last on-line misunderstanding was cleard up! I'm reading the back posts starting at the end and working back up to where I last posted/read.

Oldmanoftheski will be on MY PERSPECTIVE, my internet radio program tomorrow at 8 to 9 pm Eastern time; 7 to 8 p.m. Central time, 6 to 7 p.m Mountain time, 5 to 6 p.m. Pacific time and 4 to 5 0p.m. Alaskan time.



To be sure, you are no bloghog, but I'm anxcious to sae yuru blog -- hope I can visit and link there and hope you will continue to come back here to visit and post!

Did we frighten Deep Pit away from CBS presents at the Auburn Palace?

To Anonymous re BAYER

Unfortunately, I have to purchase and use VANQUISH, an over the counter medication now manufactured by Bayer which is the ONLY THING that seems to work on my periodic migraine headaches. Excedrin makes my headaches worse. There are stomach buffers in Vanquish and so I guess it's "goodbye cruel world" by Bayer? Hope not.

Seriously, I think this might be a time to seriously consider Paul's advice: "moderation in all things" and another wag added, "even moderation."

I do get my flu shots. There was a time I did not -- one winter I had such a severe and painful case of flu -- one where every muscle in my body seemed to painfully ache and I could not rest. I lost hearly a month at work and vowed that from now on, I would get the flue shot.

I have friends who choose not to take them. Regarding vaccines, I remember qas a child when there were deaths up and down the street from polio. Then came Jonas Salk and his vaccines. As an adult researcher, I learned that Jonas Salk was a New Ager. And so he was, but that is not to invalidate his earlier work which did help ameliorate what was a deadly and crippling issue when I was growing up.


Just a word of caution on the flu shot.. A famous immunologist said anyone who takes them five times in a row is a set up for neurological problems. I know personally of a couple of cases where this turned out to be true.

Another fact about flu shots, they are guessing which bugs are going to hit in any given year, and don't always get it right. The flu is nasty, but I'd rather have it than be injured for life..and that's the real risk with flu shots.

You ask great questions, but the discussion of Daniel is a huge undertaking for the blog. You are absolutely right in saying that Daniel is referring to both the ultimate Abomination of Desolations which Yeshua talks about in Matt 24, and Antiochus Ephiphanes.who is described in Daniel 8 is a picture of what that person will be like on a smaller scale. There is also repetition about the kingdoms in the imagery of Daniel. There is clear imagery that leads you right to the book of Revelations.

In a nutshell, the kingdoms which are Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome in the statue do not really go away. Elements of these pagan empires continue to operate in the world. Rome, the last kingdom is resurrected as the final kingdom before Yeshua comes, but it has this element of clay which doen't mix with iron very well ( Dan 2).

The goat which represents Greece who defeated the Persian empire ( the ram) under the reign of Alexander the Great is split into four, and Antiochus Ephiphanes is the "type of antimessiah" who arises at that time, then the Temple is cleansed at Chanukah, so the prophecy is fulfilled, but we see the language "in the latter days" used a lot so this is telling us that this prophecy is going to be repeated and at that time, it is the Son of Man who is referred to in chapter 7 who will be victorious over this beast empire.

There is a lot of repetition about the kingdoms in Daniel. The statue in chap 2 is about the four kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, then a resurrected Roman Empire. ( iron and clay). The Bible often uses repetition to show us events that happened historically and will happen again, like the Exodus story which has remarkable similarities to Revelations ( the plagues). In Exodus God was judging Pharaoh, a type of Satan, and in Reveleations He is judging the evil one, the Prince of this world, because Yeshua is now going to take it back.

There will be one like Antiochus Ephiphanes who rises up, but he will be even worse, in the sense that he will be ruler over the world, but just like Ephiphanes, who was defeated, this ruler too, will be defeated, so the Bible is calling our attention to the repetition of this kind of event.

Matt. 24:15 ¶“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in bthe holy place (clet the reader understand),

I agree it's good to read Maccabees, to understand these events. It also helps us to understand Jews fear of assimilating. The reason Daniel only ate vegetarian in exile was to eat "kosher".. so you see someone in exile who knows who he is. Because he sought God's face, God spoke to him through the dreams, much like Joseph and Solomon, who asked God for wisdom in his dream.

This is a strong encouragement for us to seek and knock to understand the events that unfold before us. It also reminds us that history repeats itself. Hitler was a type of antimessiah, although his conquests never allowed him to get to Jerusalem. I'm sure he would have if he could have.

As we see the push for world government, we should be aware that there is one that will arise like Antiochus and will persecute Israel for trying to obey God's commandments and ordinances. I don't think this will be limited to just the Jews, but all who attach to the olive tree, so we shouldn't think we are just going to "escape" with the rapture.

I know that blows people away, but what most call the "rapture" is actually the resurrection and happens "After the tribulation of those days". Not a very comforting thought perhaps, but God able to watch over us through these events should they happen in our lifetime, which is looking more and more likely.

I just want to point out that this verse employs the word "mo'ed" which is a specific reference to the appointed times of the Eternal in Lev 23.

Dan. 8:19 He said, “Behold, I am going to alet you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time (mo'ed) of the end.

The Biblical calendar which was done away with at the Council of Nicea consists of "mo'ed" the appointments that God has given us to meet with Him. They are prophetic in terms of Yeshua's birth, death and resurrection and return. At the creation these were put in place, if you notice the seventh day, God rested. There awaits a sabbath rest for the people of God and this is when Yeshua puts everything under HIs feet. In the meantime these feasts are to designed for our sanctification.

God never instructed us to change them and this is the great confusion today. Because people have misunderstood Paul over the centuries, they think it's okay to cancel the appointments God made to meet us, but God WILL KEEP HIS APPOINTMENTS, you can be sure of that.

We need to identify these themes in the Bible and see how God is speaking to us today. A revived or Resurrected Roman Empire does not mean that elements of the other kingdoms do not exist. Greek thinking still has incredible influence on our Western culture so it's important to understand how these influence affect our worldview and especially when it comes to our faith.

If Antiochus erected something so that he could be worshipped, you can be sure that the mark of the ultimate antimessiah is connected false worship. If the Jews who followed Torah at the time of Antiochus Ephiphanes were persecuted, so will those who obey God's Torah be persecuted in the time of the antimessiah. Not only that, but the holy place will be desecrated. It already is in the sense that the Dome of the Rock is there, but I think it will be a revived Temple of some sort where the sacrifice will be started again. I just received an email about the Sanhedrin moving closer and cloer to being reestablished, so Israel is ready if ever a Temple were built.

We are to be "Hebrews" and leave Babylon. We are to cross over and have the faith of Abraham.

Rev. 19:2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE cTRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the dgreat harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.”

Bond-servant is an expression right from Torah..It was when the servant was set free from his master, but chose to stay. To signify this an awl ( like a nail) was used to pierce his ear on the doorpost.

Right in this image we have have Yeshua's crucifiction.. The nail, the wood of the doorpost, the blood. Passover, the doorpost, the blood of the Lamb, the angel of death passes over..

In the imagery of the ram and goat, we have the sacrifices so we need to go back and look at those sacrifices to understand.. When we begin thinking like this and reading the Scriptures with these understandings it is hebraic and we can see the Scriptures thematically...I probably didn't answer all your questions, but I hope that helps.

Many people are afraid of prophecy, but most of the Bible is prophecy and God left it so we would understand. Sometimes it becomes more clear as the events of the day unfold..and I believe with all my heart we will see this with the war in Gaza right now and the subsequent peace process that will ensue. We all should we watching that carefully.

From the NJ Star-Ledger (01/12/09):

Merck pressing for OK to market Gardasil for males

After more than two years of selling the Gardasil vaccine as a way of protecting girls and young women against cervical cancer, Merck is asking federal drug regulators to allow the vaccine's use in boys and men between the ages of 9 and 26.

The drugmaker is counting on the expanded use to boost sales of Gardasil, which have flattened after a quick start. Getting that boost, however, may prove difficult.

After two years on the market, Gardasil's side effects have made some pediatricians more reluctant to recommend it for their youngest patients. And despite the vaccine's early, soaring revenue --it reached sales of $1.4 billion in its first year -- Merck has yet to capture a huge share of its primary market: young women, including college students.

The vaccine could be an even harder sell for boys.

One of the big reasons to vaccinate males is to stop the spread of the human papillomavirus, a sexually transmitted disease often referred to simply as HPV. But that may not prove as compelling a sales pitch as one that touts a vaccine as a protection against cancer.

"Boys don't get cervical cancer," said C. Anthony Butler, an analyst with Barclays Capital in New York City, "so parents could be reluctant to provide them with the vaccine.

"We want better health, but we don't want to do what's required to get it," Butler said. "It's a Catch-22."

Merck submitted an application to federal drug regulators last month requesting approval to begin selling Gardasil to boys as a protection against HPV-caused genital lesions. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration is expected to decide later this year whether Merck's application meets its standards.

Gardasil was originally approved by the FDA in 2006 as a vaccine to protect girls and young women against four strains of HPV -- known as 6, 11, 16 and 18. Health officials have blamed the latter two strains for causing an estimated 10,000 new cases of cervical cancer each year.

Yet from the beginning, the vaccine proved to be controversial, partly because of the sexual nature of the virus and partly because of Merck's focus on girls as young as 9.

Compounding matters was the company's aggressive lobbying efforts to get state governments to include Gardasil as part of mandatory school-immunization programs.

By early 2007, the drugmaker announced it would suspend its lobbying efforts after the governor of Texas, who had received campaign contributions from Merck, side-stepped his own state Legislature to impose a mandate that schoolgirls get the vaccine.

The vaccine, which requires a trio of shots, has a price tag of $360. While many private health plans provide coverage for Gardasil, levels of coverage can vary. In 2008, sales are estimated to remain flat at $1.5 billion.

Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center, said her group, which is generally critical of vaccine use, has concerns about the side effects occurring in girls and young women vaccinated with Gardasil.

"We should not be expanding the numbers of children who will be subjected to the risks of this vaccine," she said.

According to the adverse-event reports compiled on Gardasil, the vaccine has been blamed for causing a range of side effects, including some deaths, seizures and fainting.
Scripturally, "Babylon" appears to have referred to whatever was the prevailing civil power -- A city named Babylon in Daniel's day; Rome in the Apostle Paul's time.

Hi Constance,

You are correct.

Scripturally, "Babylon" symbolically refers to the prevailing civil "evil empire" du jour.

There is also a kind of Scripturally described "pattern" in the book of Revelation by which every major "evil empire" comes to power - i.e. "the four horsemen."

It is to be observed, moreover, that horses were regarded as ritually "unclean" by the Jewish people.

Therefore the mention of horses in relation to what is being symbolically described in the Book of Revelations would have given John's readers a "heads up" that what he had to tell them was NOT good news.

It was a warning/prophecy about the rise and fall of "evil empires" from the time of the writing of the Book of Revelations up to and including the rise and fall of the final "evil empire" of the antichrist and even the antichrist himself.

In the late Father Vincent Miceli's book, THE ANTICHRIST, Father Miceli pointed out that in the course of Christian history there would be many "mini-antichrists." Father Miceli echoed the words of Our Lord Himself who warned us in the Bible about this very thing.
Gardisil was also not tested on girls, it was tested on adult women, so it is dangerous and reckless for them to administer it to girls (and now boys).

medical advice given to me (and I have boys) was that we should steer clear of this vaccine- it is just too dangerous.


The root of the word Babylon, babel means confusion. I suspect when God confused the languages at Babel and dispersed the people all over the world there were elements of babel that entered into every religion and culture. That's why we have similar gods and goddesses in pagan religions who have the same characteristics, but different names.

The empire of Babylon under Nebechadnezzer lost world power when the Assyrian empire came to power, but elements of it are still alive and well today. There's a great film that talks about how the Gates of Hell taken from Nebechadnezzer's palace were brought to Nazi Germany several years before Hitler came to power. The Temple of Pergemum ( where Satan has his throne in the Book of Revelations) was also brought to Berlin.

These pagan things were once again reunited with Western Europe when the wall fell in 1989. I think you would find the film interesting. It's called the Rape of Europa:

Europa was the Phoenician goddess that was raped by Zeus who became a bull.. Of course in Brussels you have the statue of the "woman on the Beast" and on EU coins as well.

Someone on the blog pointed out the EU headquarters in Strasbourg is modeled after the Tower of Babel painting by Hans Breugel...but you will notice, there are also many elements from Greek and Roman mythology in all European capitals which reflects the influences that have touched all these societies.

When the Bible speaks of Mystery Babylon, I believe this is the confusion that has infiltrated not only religious systems but economic systems...It's the confusion that probably goes back to the Book of Genesis.

Our Western education is very much influenced by Greek philosophy because of our European roots, but I know people who think the United States is Babylon ( the prophetic one that will be destroyed) in the book of Revelations when all the merchants are mourning because "Babylon is fallen"

Of course the city sits on a hill with seven hills which only describes a few cities and most of us associate with Rome. This would fit with the idea of the last Empire, the resurrected Roman Empire made with iron and clay, also being called allegorically Babylon.. Some people think it's the US because of the vast wealth and power and financial markets and the fact that it is "surrounded by water".

There are other elements of Rome that seem to fit the description, but I'll let everyone use their own imagination:

Rev. 17:4-4 The woman awas clothed in purple and scarlet, and 1adorned with gold and precious 2stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, and on her forehead a name was written, a amystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

This imagery is very interesting indeed..

I will mention one more thing which I found very intriguing in the proposal of H.E.Benedikt.. He proposed making Jerusalem like the Vatican, but run by the 3 monotheistic religions, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. This would certainly be babel to have leaders from these three religions overseeing the holy sites in Jerusalem jointly.

Some other interesting facts are that among the cities that claim to be built on seven hills, besides Rome are Mecca and Jerusalem... Don't want to make too much of that, but then is an interesting coincidence. All religious capitals of the 3 religions, all on seven hills. All with interests in Jerusalem.

Rev. 17:9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

If Jerusalem becomes a city like the Vatican under an ecumenic leadership, it would be very interesting to see who the antimessiah and who the false prophet end up being.. I think we can think of a few candidates for these jobs right now..

With Europe become Eurabia, this adds another interesting dimension to the whole puzzle. Islam may have been held off by Charles Martel at Poitiers many years ago, but it seems to be making inroads all over the world today. The "confusion" is evident all over today.

It is interesting to note that the first and second Gulf Wars in Iraq (the original Babylon) have been part of the whole war on terror which has facilitated either directly or indirectly the New World Order, so the literal Babylon has played a role in creating the allegorical Babylon.

I remember when the towers got hit, people were saying New York City is Babylon ( no hills though)....

Personally, I think we are called to be "hebrews" and cross out of our pagan cultures into the Biblical culture...Like the Maccabees we need to resist assimilating with all the pagan elements of our cultures. That's what it means to be the "called out assembly" or to be "in the world, but not of it". We should attach to Israel and "persevere with God".

Just a few rambling thoughts...

Thanks Joyce for responding to my question about Daniel, which was first posted by anonymous T.T.

Regarding your thoughts on Babylon,
I couldn't help but want to share this link, which was provided recently by OldManoftheSki in a comment on my blog:

The link may have already been posted here, but in light of the conversation about Babylon, it's worth reposting as it visually connects The EU with ancient Babylon vis a vis the Louise Weiss building in Strasbourg and a Renaissance painter's depiction of the Tower of Babylon.
Thanks anonymous 3:54 and Susanna for your excellent information about fractals and sacred geometry.

Bjorn has been discussing the repetition of the number 300 in the news media on his blog recently. Couldn't help but wonder if these are connected...
Yes, it was on your blog that I saw it, my mistake. I think you would also enjoy the film Rape of Europa.too.

I guess I didn't see TT's anonymous post..Thought it was you.

Anonymous 3:54

You said,
"Wayne Dyer of Public TV is a NAger who has highlighted his shows with the phi spiral. I believe the phi spiral as iconic to the NA as earth in space, the rising sun at the horizon of earth in space, and the butterfly."

That reminded me of a show I saw the other night on the History channel about the Mayan calendar ending on 12/21/12. They talked about the sun entering the center of the Milky Way at the same time the earth performed a rare "precession" on its axis.

Seems this is the type of math the Mayans used when devising their calendar, and building their pyramids, etc.

I googled golden ratio and couldn't help but notice the diagram directly below Ptolemy's theorem. It's the same exact configuration of the Atomium,in Brussels, the structure that Suzette and I were talking about yesterday. The Atomium is actually a reproduction of an iron molecule magnified 165,000,000,000 times . Usage of images of the structure on the Internet have been banned, which seems very curious to me.

At any rate, this structure (built for the 1957 World's Fair), was obviously created using this New Age math promoted by the Ayers/Obama education foundation.

Fascinating stuff.
young grasshopper
***this is found under wikimedia commons: about atomium.
Do not upload images of the Atomium in Brussels. This building is copyrighted artwork. Nobody is allowed distributing his own photos of the Atomium without the consent of the copyright holders in Belgium and other countries without the Freedom of Panorama. So all Atomium images will get deleted in Commons on sight. Thank you for your cooperation.

Tues., Jan. 13, 2009

Constance, I heeded your advice to check back on this thread. Interesting discussion here.

Regarding your post of 10:55 p.m and the comments regarding the polio vaccine--I heard a fascinating interview with Dennis Prager and David Oshinsky, professor of American History at University of Texas. Oshinsky has published a book, Polio: an American Story. You can hear the podcast of the program on (December 30, 2008).

The gist of the book is that polio was more predominant in wealthier families--although it crossed all barriers. The theory is that wealthier families tended to be more fanatical about cleanliness and had the means for domestic helpers, appliances and cleaning supplies. But nursing babies from less wealthy families who would be exposed to the virus would have benefitted from the mother's antibodies and would have gained some natural immunity.

(Please don't shoot me down if I have some of the medical terminology wrong here. I think I'm communicating the main idea correctly, though.)

Oshinsky said that although polio is a world-wide factor, the epidemic was largely in America, with some presence in European countries.

While our advancement in medicine and cleanliness has certainly benefited our culture, we are also hurting ourselves. For example, we know that overuse and abuse of antibiotics kills good stomach bacteria, and/or strengthens new resistant strains. Antibacterial lotions kill the good bacteria on our hands that keep other organisms in balance.

Are there any other old Girl Scouts who remember camping days when we'd drop a hotdog on the ground, wipe it off and say, "A little dirt is good for you!"

Just some "food for thought"--LOL!

Hi Young Grasshopper,

You are more than welcome for the information.

Here is some more historical information on "Sacred Geometry."

You will observe that in the previous article there is a link to another historical article on "Labyrinth."

The following from the article on PRAYER LABYRINTH might be of particular interest to you:

As with other pagan cultural practices, the prayer labyrinth was adopted by the Church across Europe during the medieval times, being often used as a means to meditate, pray and connect with God in a higher spiritual way. Numerous cathedrals in Europe have prayer labyrinths embedded into their floors, with the Cathedral of Chartres (Notre-Dame de Chartres Cathedral), located about 80 km from Paris having one of the most famous prayer labyrinths in the world. Prayer labyrinths were often viewed and modeled as a journey to Jerusalem and were even called Chemin de Jerusalem (Road of Jerusalem) serving as a spiritual pilgrimage for those who could not afford to travel to Jerusalem, the center of the world.

The widest accepted prayer labyrinth in the Church was the eleven-circuit labyrinth, which is more symbolic of Christ's cross with its four quadrants, and grace being symbolized by the never-ending path to the center and back, allowing the pilgrim to walk the path at his own pace, stop for prayer and meditation as needed.

By the 17th and 18th centuries however, prayer labyrinths had lost much of their spiritual meaning. Some clergy and other believers now associate them with New Age mystical practices.

With the practice of walking the prayer labyrinth becoming popular again in contemporary Christianity, particularly in the Emerging Church movement, many Christian denominations from across the theological spectrum are again adopting the practice of walking the prayer labyrinth. Some churches opening their labyrinths to any pilgrim in need of contemplation and prayer. It should be noted that the prayer labyrinth is not a maze in the popular sense, and rather has one path on which one cannot get lost, serving a powerful symbol of individual life journeys and pilgrimage in faith. entire article.....

Here are a couple of more interesting links.

The following is from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA:

With regard to Sacred Geometry as applied to Ecclesiastical Architecture the following article from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA may also be of interest. Here is an excerpt:

This particular form of the domestic church, removed by just one degree, architecturally speaking from a quite primitive simplicity, deserves special attention. For there would seem to be good grounds for the assertion that it had become at least not uncommon, even within Apostolic times. In fact, as several writers on the subject have quite independently pointed out, the main feature of the arrangement would seem to be indicated in the New Testament itself. The visions recorded in the Apocalypse are, of course, Divine revelations; but, as the vision of Ezechiel was cast in the mould of the Jewish ritual, so also those of St. John may be reasonably thought to reflect the ritual of primitive Christianity. There, then, in the midst, we see the throne, whereon there sits One enthroned, of whom the Christian bishop is the representative; and with Him are four and twenty presbyters, who are "priests" (hiereis), ranged in a semicircle (kyklothen), twelve on either hand (Revelation 4:2, 4). Within the space bounded by these seats is a pavement of glass "like to crystal" (possibly of mosaic), and in the centre the altar (Revelation 4:6; 6:9; 8:3; 9:13; 16:7). On the hither side of this are the one hundred and forty-four thousand "signed" or "sealed", who "sing a new canticle", and who incidentally bear witness to the very early origin of the schola cantorum, at least in some rudimentary form (Revelation 7:4, 14:1-3). Farther removed from the altar is that "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues", the heavenly counterpart of the coetus fidelium. (Revelation 7:9) more......

As you can see, Sacred Geometry can be good or bad depending on how it is interpreted and used.

Needless to say that it is never acceptable if it is used for "magical" or occult purposes.
Atomium pics:


Looks very 1950s sci-fi on the inside!
Young Grasshopper,


Have you seen the Wikipedia article on Atomium?

When I first saw it, the first thing that came to mind was how it reminded me of pictures I had seen of the esoteric "Jewish" and later esoteric "Christian" Kabbalistic "TREE OF LIFE."

I did a little digging and sure enough....I wasn't the only one who made the observation. I don't necessarily agree with everything in the following article, but I thought the following parts of it were very interesting:

· The Atomium and the Jewish Kabbalah

There is a striking resemblance between the appearance of the Atomium and visual depictions of the “tree of life” from the Jewish Kabbalah. This is very clear in the picture on the website, hashape/kabbalah.html, which shows the “tree of life” three-dimensionally within an abstract landscape. The correspondence is not exact because the latter comprises ten spheres not nine. However, at times the god Horus was added to the Ennead, making up the number ten of the “tree of life”. [103]

The occult symbolism of the Atomium has already been picked up by current day practitioners of the Kabbalah, notably by the pop-singer, Madonna. The image of the Atomium was uses as the symbol for her album, Drowned World Tour[104] and its situation where they held the Belgian preview of her album, American Life of life.” [105]


Mini-Europe [117]

Mini-Europe started in 1989 as a theme park presenting scale models of buildings and structures of cultural-historical significance that were to be found only within the nations of the European Union. These include the Brussels Grand Place, the Eiffel Tower, the Seville Arena, the Berlin Wall, the Acropolis, the San Marco Square in Venice, Big Ben, the (European) Ariane Rocket, the Leaning Tower of Pisa, the P&O Superferry, the Arc de Triomphe, the Chateau de Chenonceau, a North Sea Oil drilling platform and the Brandenburg gate. New models are progressively being added.

There is also an information center called the Spirit of Europe. It is really is directed towards children and shows the European Union in a positive light. Its purpose is to give the

“the history of the EU, its place in the world, why it is necessary, and its challenges for every citizen of Europe.” [my italics]

Someone pointed out that Mini-Europe is an exercise in miniaturization, where colossal public monuments are reduced to a twenty-fifth of their actual size, while the Atomium is an exercise in magnification, where the smallest known particle is increased in scale by a factor of 165 billion. The big is made small and the small big.

As you can see, what you suggested about the Atomium being the magnification of an iron molecule may not be too far off the mark.

The following isn't in English, but as they say "a picture is worth a thousand words."
Thanks so much Susanna,

It's a fascinating subject and I'm looking forward to re-reading what you've written this afternoon, and checking out all the links as well.

I have been preoccupied all afternoon but I really want to tell everyone here that the Lord is very, very, VERY good! I want to pay testimony to the fact that the Lord provided not one, but two miracles this afternoon in my insignificant little life. He is an awesome God, and with all the negative news items that we read here, too often we get caught up in much negativity. Please do not ever forget that the Lord is faithful! He is a righteous loving God, and He can perform miracles in our lives today if we enable HIM to do the work! (Without our interference!)

Greater is He that is in me (Calling upon the power of the Holy Spirit through the Father), than he that is in the world.

I hope I can find the right place to share these testimonies soon. We talk so much of dark things without paying testimony to how God is moving victoriously in our lives!

I just want to say that I am very grateful for what the Lord has done today in the life of one tiny little believer!
The Labyrinth which has gained wide acceptance today in Evangelical churches has its origins in pagan civilization. You can see how this story is tied into the mythological story of Europa.

The Knights Templar who were thought to be the early predecessors of Scottish Rite Masonry appropriated it to simulate pilgrimages to Jerusalem. They built all of the Gothic cathedrals in Europe. We know there is a connection between masonry and the temple of Solomon. It is noteworthy that the only "pilgrimages" that God ordered are the ones given for the mo'ed of Lev 23, Three times a year men were supposed to present themselves at Jerusalem. Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot, so walking a labyrinth is not a substitute for going to Jerusalem. It's based on the story of Mithra.

The story of the Knights Templar is that they ended up in Scotland and formed Scottish Rite Masonry. Sacred geometry weighs heavily in the building of the Gothic Cathedrals and in Masonry, as evidenced by their symbol of the compass.

Now, as for modern day usage of the Chartes Cathedral, some of the most famous New Agers are involved:

Damanhur supports Wisdom University:

There is tons more on the subject of the Templers, Freemasons, sacred geometry and the labyrinth but you can start with this.

The films I recommended discuss this too:

Secret mysteries of America's beginnings and Mysteries in Stone.


I apologize ahead of time for the length of this comment.

For those who are interested in the REAL history of the Knights Templar as opposed to the fabrications of "crank scholars,"

The Knights Templars were the earliest founders of the military orders, and are the type on which the others are modelled. They are marked in history (1) by their humble beginning, (2) by their marvellous growth, and (3) by their tragic end.

While there may have been some individual members of the Knights Templar who became heretics, their downfall was largely due to the envy and greed of King Phillip the Fair of France who was looking for an excuse to confiscate whatever wealth he believed may have belonged to the Templars.

Therefore, when studying the "trial of the Templars," it is important to understand that there were TWO PHASES; the secular Royal Commission and the ecclesiastical Papal Commission.

It was Philip the Fair who made the preliminary inquiry and on the strength of so-called "revelations" of a few degraded and unworthy members, SECRET orders were sent through France to arrest all the Templars on the same day...October 13, 1307 and to submit them to a most rigorous examinatuion - which included the most hideous forms of torture.

While it was made to appear that the King did this at the request of ecclesiastical inquisitors, it was actually done without their cooperation.

In this inquiry torture, the use of which was authorized by the cruel procedure of the age in the case of crimes committed without witnesses, was pitilessly employed. Owing to the lack of evidence, the accused could be convicted only through their own confession and, to extort this confession, the use of torture was considered necessary and legitimate.

There was one feature in the organization of the order which gave rise to suspicion, namely the secrecy with which the rites of initiation were conducted. The secrecy is explained by the fact that the receptions always took place in a chapter, and the chapters, owing to the delicate and grave questions discussed, were, and necessarily had to be, held in secret. An indiscretion in the matter of secrecy entailed exclusion from the order. The secrecy of these initiations, however, had two grave disadvantages.

As these receptions could take place wherever there was a commandery, they were carried on without publicity and were free from all surveillance or control from the higher authorities, the tests being entrusted to the discretion of subalterns who were often rough and uncultivated. Under such conditions, it is not to be wondered at that abuses crept in. One need only recall what took place almost daily at the time in the brotherhoods of artisans, the initiation of a new member being too often made the occasion for a parody more or less sacrilegious of baptism or of the Mass.

The second disadvantage of this secrecy was, that it gave an opportunity to the enemies of the Templars, and they were numerous, to infer from this mystery every conceivable malicious supposition and base on it the monstrous imputations. The Templars were accused of spitting upon the Cross, of denying Christ, of permitting sodomy, of worshipping an idol, all in the most impenetrable secrecy. Such were the Middle Ages, when prejudice was so vehement that, to destroy an adversary, men did not recoil from inventing the most criminal charges. It will suffice to recall the similar, but even more ridiculous than ignominious accusations brought against Pope Boniface VIII by the same Philip the Fair.

Most of the accused declared themselves guilty of these secret crimes after being subjected to such ferocious torture that many of them succumbed. Some made similar confessions without the use of torture, it is true, but through fear of it; the threat had been sufficient. Such was the case with the grand master himself, Jacques de Molay, who acknowledged later that he had lied to save his life.

Carried on without the authorization of the pope, who had the military orders under his immediate jurisdiction, this investigation was radically corrupt both as to its intent and as to its procedure. Not only did Clement V enter an energetic protest, but he annulled the entire trial and suspended the powers of the bishops and their inquisitors. However, the offense had been admitted and remained the irrevocable basis of the entire subsequent proceedings. Philip the Fair took advantage of the discovery to have bestowed upon himself by the University of Paris the title of Champion and Defender of the Faith, and also to stir up public opinion at the States General of Tours against the heinous crimes of the Templars. Moreover, he succeeded in having the confessions of the accused confirmed in presence of the pope by seventy-two Templars, who had been specially chosen and coached beforehand. In view of this investigation at Poitiers (June, 1308), the pope, until then sceptical, at last became concerned and opened a new commission, the procedure of which he himself directed. He reserved the cause of the order to the papal commission, leaving individuals to be tried by the diocesan commissions to whom he restored their powers.

The second phase was the Papal Commission:

The second phase of the process was the papal inquiry, which was not restricted to France, but extended to all the Christian countries of Europe, and even to the Orient. In most of the other countries -- Portugal, Spain, Germany, Cyprus -- the Templars were found innocent; in Italy, except for a few districts, the decision was the same. But in France the episcopal inquisitions, resuming their activities, took the facts as established at the trial, and confined themselves to reconciling the repentant guilty members, imposing various canonical penances extending even to perpetual imprisonment. Only those who persisted in heresy were to be turned over to the secular arm, but, by a rigid interpretation of this provision, those who had withdrawn their former confessions were considered relapsed heretics; thus fifty-four Templars who had recanted after having confessed were condemned as relapsed and publicly burned on 12 May, 1310. Subsequently all the other Templars, who had been examined at the trial, with very few exceptions declared themselves guilty.

At the same time the papal commission, appointed to examine the cause of the order, had entered upon its duties and gathered together the documents which were to be submitted to the pope, and to the general council called to decide as to the final fate of the order. The culpability of single persons, which was looked upon as established, did not involve the guilt of the order. Although the defense of the order was poorly conducted, it could not be proved that the order as a body professed any heretical doctrine, or that a secret rule, distinct from the official rule, was practised. Consequently, at the General Council of Vienne in Dauphiné on 16 October, 1311, the majority were favourable to the maintenance of the order.

The pope, irresolute and harrassed, finally adopted a middle course: he decreed the dissolution, not the condemnation of the order, and not by penal sentence, but by an Apostolic Decree (Bull of 22 March, 1312). The order having been suppressed, the pope himself was to decide as to the fate of its members and the disposal of its possessions. As to the property, it was turned over to the rival Order of Hospitallers to be applied to its original use, namely the defence of the Holy Places. In Portugal, however, and in Aragon the possessions were vested in two new orders, the Order of Christ in Portugal and the Order of Montesa in Aragon. As to the members, the Templars recognized guiltless were allowed either to join another military order or to return to the secular state. In the latter case, a pension for life, charged to the possessions of the order, was granted them. On the other hand, the Templars who had pleaded guilty before their bishops were to be treated "according to the rigours of justice, tempered by a generous mercy".

The pope reserved to his own judgment the cause of the grand master and his three first dignitaries. They had confessed their guilt; it remained to reconcile them with the Church, after they had testified to their repentance with the customary solemnity. To give this solemnity more publicity, a platform was erected in front of the Notre-Dame for the reading of the sentence. But at the supreme moment the grand master recovered his courage and proclaimed the innocence of the Templars and the falsity of his own alleged confessions. To atone for this deplorable moment of weakness, he declared himself ready to sacrifice his life. He knew the fate that awaited him. Immediately after this unexpected coup-de-théâtre he was arrested as a relapsed heretic with another dignitary who chose to share his fate, and by order of Philip they were burned at the stake before the gates of the palace. This brave death deeply impressed the people, and, as it happened that the pope and the king died shortly afterwards, the legend spread that the grand master in the midst of the flames had summoned them both to appear in the course of the year before the tribunal of God.

The article concludes that the latest articles brought to light
"particularly those which Fincke has recently extracted from the archives of the Kingdom of Aragon," tell more and more strongly in favour of the order.

As for the Scottish Templars, according to the following article,

Many kings and nobles supported the Knights at that time, and only dissolved the order in their fiefs when so commanded by Pope Clement V. Robert the Bruce, the King of Scots, had already been excommunicated for other reasons, and was therefore not disposed to pay heed to Papal commands. In Portugal the order's name was changed to the Order of Christ, and was believed to have contributed to the first naval discoveries of the Portuguese. Prince Henry the Navigator led the Portuguese order for 20 years until the time of his death. In Spain, where the king of Aragon was also against giving the heritage of the Templars to Hospitallers (as commanded by Clement V), the Order of Montesa took Templar assets.


Anyone who knows the REAL history of Freemasonry KNOWS that before Freemasonry was hijacked by certain individual Protestants who turned it into a quasi-religious/political Hanoverian plot, the Freemasons were a legitimate trade guild analogous to the modern-day unions.

Contrary to Masonic propaganda which has contributed to the false idea that it is OK for Catholics to become Freemasons, the official position of the Roman Catholic Church - whether Catholics choose to obey or not - is that Roman Catholics who join the Masonic Lodge are regarded as being in a state of "grave sin" and are prohibited from receiving the Sacraments as long as they continue their membership in the Lodge. Moreover, they may still be subject to the penalty of excommunication.

The Catholic Church's most recent statement on Freemasonry was released in the 1983 document Quaesitum est, written by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and approved by Pope John Paul II. This document remains the most current standing reference on the Church's policy on Freemasonry.[4] Quaesitum est states:

"The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion...."

Quaesitum est clarified the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which did not explicitly list Masonic orders among the secret societies it condemns.[5] This contrasted with the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which explicitly declared that joining Freemasonry entailed automatic excommunication. The omission of Masonic orders from the 1983 Canon Law prompted Catholics and Masons to question whether the ban on Catholics becoming Freemasons was still active, especially after the perceived liberalization of the Church after Vatican II.

A number of Catholics became Freemasons assuming that the Church had softened its stance.[6] Quaesitum est addressed this misinterpretation of the Code of Canon Law, clarifying that:

...the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden."

These "irreconcilable principles" include a "deistic God"[7], naturalism[8] and religious indifferentism.[9]

I highly recommend you read this online book.

It's not crank scholars who tie the Knights Templar to Freemasonry. It's actually widely accepted..If your only source of scholarly research is the Catholic Church itself, you might expect that it is a little one-sided..

When you say that the labyrinth is for "good" I have to take exception with that. The labyrinth has its pagan roots in Minotaur. We cannot take things that are pagan and "christianize" them. In the Torah, God calls His children to separate from those things that the nations do, not join to them.

The problem with Roman Catholicism is that for centuries it has taken all that is pagan and adopted it as part of the faith. If you are willing, with an open mind to look you can see it. If you are afraid of looking at the history of many of the traditions with a critical eye you will continue to defend pagan practices like the labyrinth, not to mention many others like Mardi Gras:

"the debauchery before the fast?"

Lev. 18:24 ‘Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these athe nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.

These instructions are not only for the physical seed of Israel, but for all who follow Yeshua. We are to be kadosh "holy" as He is holy.

Rome is on seven hills.

The Vatican slaughtered the Bible believers in the Massacre of St. Barthlemy:'s_Day_massacre

the crusades:

The Shoah:

Now, I'm not holding all the Catholics responsible for this, but the Church, yes. The Church has committed many abominations throughout the centuries and has never repented for them.

You try to present the Catholic Church as some wonderful institution with a papal succession from Peter, but if you examine the history with an open mind and you examine the practice in the light of Scripture, the Catholic Church fits the description of Revelations 17 very nicely, and I wouldn't be the first one to say it..

Now I don't think most Catholics are aware of this history, nor do they know the Scriptures well enough to compare the practices to what is written. I said most... Most Catholics, really believe in their hearts that they are following what they are supposed to do and they do it with a very sincere heart.. The problem is they don't understand the Scriptures.

The Scriptures say: NO Graven images (statues). It is not good for a man to be alone ( the doctrine of celebacy), Honor the Sabbath ( Sunday was never changed into the Sabbath and the Lord's Day is actually the Day of the Lord. We are not saved by sacraments but by the blood of Yeshua. Mary did not stay virgin. She had other children, James, Yacov for one, but others as well. God did not create a "trinity" He is echad. God did not tell us to celebrate Easter names after Ishtar or Christmas, on the day of the Winter Solstice, or Lent again based on babylonian practices, or worship saints, we are all saints who sin occassionally ( those of us who are in Messiah) We are not supposed to confess our sins to priest, but to one and another and pray for one another so we can be healed. There is no record of Mary being taken into heaven.. The feast days are listed in Leviticus 23. WE are ALL a kingdom of priests. Pope is not an office ever mentioned in the Bible and there are no men who are infallible. Rome is not the capital of the faith, Jerusalem always was and always will be. It was there Messiah died, was buried and rose and will return. Rome was always and still is a pagan capital that has monuments to the sun god like the obelisk, the the rays of the sun on all of the Catholic images. The Bible never had nuns and the only priests besides us are the Levitical priest hood who took care of the Temple and the sacrifices.

Susanna, you are probably a very nice lady, but you have to stop quoting Catholic sites and go and read your Bible. You have so believed in the propaganda of the Catholic Church you cannot see the error after error that it committed for centuries and is still committing.. They sold indulgences to enrich the church. They tortured people mercilessly...and I have seen the instruments of torture in a museum in Europe with my own eyes.
They were horrible to the Jews. They forced conversions or killed them. Read the edict of Ferdinand and Isabella.. My own family was affected by this.

You might love the Lord, and might really believe that you are on the right path so I am not against you, but I just want to say to you if you are in the faith, open your eyes and examine the evidence and stop defending what is indefensible. There are no perfect congregations, but we are not talking about perfection here. We are talking about apostasy.

Yeshua said we are not to call anyone Father except our Father in heaven, so why is the Pope, the "holy father"? Every single member of my family who was involved in the Catholic Church examined the evidence with open minds and left..

I'm not telling you what to do, but I ask you to really with an open heart examine the Scriptures and pray and see what God shows you. If you have been seeking Him through the intermediary of a priest or Mary or the saints, stop. Get on your face and speak directly to Him through His Son.

If you've bowed to statues, ask forgiveness. If you've prayed to saints or Mary, ask forgiveness because all of this is against His Word. There is ONE MEDIATOR.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

You see Susanna, Catholics think they need the Church to mediate for them, but there is only ONE mediator and that is Yeshua Himself. Why go to a priest when you can go direct to Him. Do you really want to have someone standing between you and Yeshua? Don't you want to see His face?

He is the ONLY one Susanna, so please take this in the spirit it is meant. I don't want to put you down. On the contrary, I pray that you would be set free like I was, like Maryanne was and others who have been there and done that.

This is a matter of me being right and you being wrong.. This is a matter of your freedom.

I confess, you are a lot more zealous about the RCC than I ever was so maybe you will not consider what I'm saying, but what I say is really from a sincere heart with no bad motives.

My prayer for you is that you will be in face to face relationship with Him and walk according to His voice, and His voice alone and...

Honestly, no offense to you intended at all.

To Joyce,

Your first link at 1:09 did not work. Can you resend, please ? I would very much like to read as I have been following the links that you and Susanna are posting with great interest. And especially as it concerns the cult of Mithra which I have been doing research on for my blog for well over a month now.

I have not yet read Susanna's last post, since it was long and I have been doing other things today.

However, here's some of my own simple thoughts about some of the controversy regarding the subject matter recently discussed here.

Please excuse me, as I am not as erudite and educated as others here. I try to post what comes from my heart and my walk with God, but my impressions are imperfect at best.

Regarding the Atomium:
Susanna, I believe that you are spot on and that it depicts the tree of Life in the Kaballah or the Diagram of the Sephirot, as it is also known.

Regarding Labyrinths:
I do agree with Susanna that they can be positive or negative spiritual walks depending on the intent of the creation. That being said, they do seem to be rooted in pagan mysticism, (as Joyce said) in many of the venues in which they are used today. (I’ll give examples shortly.)

If the walk through the garden is deliberately associated with New Age theology and the pagan roots that Joyce spoke of- well then certainly this is not something we should seek out as Christians. Nonetheless, God created nature for our enjoyment, and I always feel closest to God in a garden, or when painting a garden.

Recently, I did a blog post about the Maitland Art Center. I had visited this place a couple times in the past few years and the first time that I went there I was struck by the absolute stillness of the place- a feeling of over-whelming calm that bordered almost on holiness, -enshrouded as it was by nature’s beauty in the vibrant color of the bougainvillea and hibiscus, the shimmering patterns in the reflecting pond, and the scents and images of the tropical foliage that shifted in the gentle wind all around me. I went there again about a month ago after well over a year, and had a totally different reaction to the place.

This time I was very much aware of the symbols of pagan idol worship that were everywhere in the architecture. In fact, the artist/architect who built the place intentionally fashioned the architecture after Mayan and Incan architecture. Hence, my focus was on the pagan aspects of symbology rather than the beauty of nature that surrounded the architecture, and which I'd perceived on my earlier visits. This distinction is important , I believe.

Suddenly, while wandering around in the gardens and trying to figure out how to get back to the street, a light bulb went off in my head, and I realized I was in a labyrinth.

I have posted a lot of photos of this place on my blog, Shifting Sands. The link to that post is here:


The end result was that even though the place had set aside a Christian area, complete with cross and stones depicting the Stations of the Cross- I knew the heart of it was not Christian at all. IT WAS PAGAN. In my opinion, this place has been relegated to demonic gods and I actually felt a spirit of oppression there.

In truth, my eyes had been opened since the last time I was there, and I knew that I was seeing the reality of the place AS IT TRULY WAS in this last visit.

That beings said- there are labyrinths being erected in all different places around the world, and I do not believe that they are all demonic in nature. An English hedge garden seems innocuous to me, but then again I am always learning! (and smelling roses!)

I have always felt enormous comfort from walking through gardens, smelling the aroma of flowers and sensing the powerful presence of God epitomized through his beautiful creations. So I hesitate to label all labyrinths as evil.

Well over a year ago, (before the real estate market crashed), I received a gorgeous brochure about a lifestyle community in Asheville, North Carolina. The place looked gorgeous in every sense of the word. However, it has only been very recently that I have realized how deeply Asheville is rooted in New Age/occultic ties. Here is a link to a website of the community that was mailed to me in brochure format.

How gorgeous is that, I ask you?

Note the beauty of the labyrinth garden.

Upon closer inspection of the brochure, it was not only the proximity to New Age Asheville that gave me pause, but also the astronomical observatory that was being built upon the site, as well as the classes in yoga, reiki therapy and other eastern mystical activities that convinced me that this was intended as another new age Mecca for artsy retirees willing to pay the price.

As far as the cult of Mithra is concerned, and its supposed connections to Christianity - for me the jury is still out on that one. Since the Mithraism cults go way back to Persia first and are very different from the Mithraic cults of Rome, it is exceedingly difficult to tell the two apart in terms of truth and fiction. The parallels to Catholic Christianity are certainly there, but there is much that leads me to think the parallels were construed to deliberately cast doubts on Christianity and Jesus’ divinity, and for that reason alone, I refuse to listen to the rumor mill that states that Catholicism is Mithraism.

Recently, I found this despicable UK TV show hosted by Stephen Fry that featured a skit called "Happy Mithras". If you watch the skit and read the comments, you’ll understand how controversial the subject is. (At least in the UK).,441,Merry-Mithras,QI-BBC2

I am learning, but not as rapidly as before. I want to take my time and think about these things carefully , as there is truth and fiction mixed together everywhere. That’s what Satan likes. He mixes the iron and clay together and causes chaos.

Sorry this is so long.

Hope some of my ramblings make some sense.

No offense intended against you either, Joyce, but I must say that for one thing, I am having a hard time believing that you were ever really an authentic Roman Catholic if only because of the cluelessness that you have demonstrated as to what Catholics actually believe.

I hope you are NOT one of those "Christians" who interprets St. Paul's “Being crafty, I caught you with guile.” in 2 Corinthians 12:16 to mean that there is nothing wrong with lying when it is done in the service of God???

You see, Joyce, I DO read my Bible.

Just the fact that you would post a link to THE TWO BABYLONS or THE PAPAL WORSHIP proved to be the WORSHIP OF NIMROD AND HIS WIFE by Alexander Hislop confirms what I have long suspected - namely, that the only "Catholic Catechism" that you have ever studied is THE TWO BABYLONS.

Actually, for the record, I read THE TWO BABYLONS many years ago when I rescued a friend of mine(who almost died) from somebody like you who had sucked her into a cult similar to the one you have so foolishly embraced. So I know all about the phony "love-bombing" tactics and the "helping hand" proffered with limitless strings attached.

This cult also promoted THE TWO BABYLONS in their so-called "Bible Study Guide."

And oh, by the way, my friend was and still is a Protestant! A Baptist!!! And still my friend!!!

In the annals of crank scholarship, Alexander Hislop deserves a chapter all his own. Actually, he has been given TWO chapters in for him and one for his book.

Even the most dyed in the wool Protestants I know would not only be ashamed and/or embarrassed to cite Hislop's book, but they would also be ashamed and/or embarrassed to cite anyone who used Hislop as one of their sources. Neither would they think it an honor to be put in the same class as Jack Chick who is a great fan of Hislop.

It's not just Protestants I know personally who feel this way either. According to the following artice:

Saturday, January 10, 2009
A Rebuttal of Hislop's The Two Babylons
Candy's reading list now has her reading one of her favorite books, The Two Babylons. She references it often enough in her posts that I thought we had already written about it, but I found that we don't have anything in a single post. Here are some resources on this important book, which is the foundation for many anti-Catholic claims.

Many Bible Christians consider The Two Babylons as very authoritative on the pagan roots of Catholicism. Christians such as Ralph Woodrow, who has his own evangelistic association. Mr. Woodrow found The Two Babylons so compelling, he wrote his own book about the pagan origins of Cathoicism. But then, he started actually checking Hislop's citations, and they were not what they were purported to be. So Mr. Woodrow recanted his book, and wrote a different book called The Babylon Connection? debunking The Two Babylons. You can read a summary of his arguments in The Two Babylons: A Case Study in Poor Research more.....

Here is another rebuttal regarding Easter:

More on pagan festivals...

"Hislop similarly describes Easter as a modern counterpart to the ancient Babylonian solemnities surrounding the adoration of "Ishtar". In regard to the worship of Baal in ancient Britain, he states that '[Baal’s] consort Astarte was also adored by our ancestors, and that from Astarte, whose name in Nineveh was Ishtar, the religious solemnities of April, as now practised, are called by the name of Easter'."

In response I quote from an article by James Akin, writing in The Nazareth Resource Library:

"The fact is that there are only two languages in which the name has any pagan associations whatsoever -- English and German...
"In English, of course, the name is 'Easter' and in German 'Ostern.' These are related in name to a pagan spring festival, whose name, if you check a dictionary, was derived from the prehistoric West Germanic word akin to the Old English term east, which means, simply enough, 'east,' the direction of the rising sun. It has nothing to do, contrary to what you will hear from some anti-Easter-ites, with the goddess Ishtar.
"But in virtually every language except English and German, the name of Easter is derived from the Jewish word Pesach or 'Passover.' Thus in Greek the term for Easter is Pascha, in Latin the term is also Pascha. From there it passed into the Romance languages, and so in Spanish it is Pascua, in Italian it is Pasqua, in French it is Paques, and in Portugese it is Pascoa. It also passed into the non- romance languages, such as the Germanic languages Dutch, where it is Pasen and Danish, where it is Paaske.
"Thus only in the highly Protestant countries of Germany (where the Reformation started) and England (where the intense persecution and martyrdom of Catholics was the harshest), does the term "Easter" have any pagan associations at all. So perhaps in these two Protestant countries paganism was not sufficiently stamped out to use the Judeo-Christian term for the celebration of Christ's Resurrection that was used everywhere else in Europe."

Also, I can't help but wonder how Hislop would have referred to the days of the week without surreptitiously invoking such pagan deities as the Sun, the Moon, Tiws (the Germanic version of Mars, the god of war), Wodin/Odin/Mercury, Thor/Jupiter, Frigg (Odin's wife/Venus), or Saturn.

Hislop criticises the "skilful adjustment of the calendar" that allowed Easter to take the place of solemnities. However in fact, the date of Easter has nothing to do with paganism, but instead is based on Christ's resurrection in its Jewish-Passover context. Since Passover was always on or after the first full moon after the Spring equinox, and since the Resurrection was the first Sunday after Passover, Easter is always the first Sunday after the first full moon after March 21 (historically, the Spring equinox).

Articles like this show me that you know about as little about authentic Judaism as you do about authentic Christianity. And if anyone's beliefs are unbiblical thay are YOURS, not mine. Maybe a better name for your beliefs would be "Joycianity."

Since you don't like the Catholic sources I cite, here are some articles from a non-Catholic source.

As I see it, especially after reading these articles YOU'RE the one who needs to be set free, not me.

And one more thing, Joyce, in case you think I have forgotten that you were never able to answer my question, until you quote me the passage from Scripture that CLEARLY STATES that the BIBLE ONLY is to be the Christian Rule of Faith, you will NEVER convince me that your Rule of Faith is valid - even if you quote the print right out of the Bible!!!

Honestly, no offense to you intended at all either.

My articles were not for the purpose of defending the labrynth, Joyce. They were for the purpose of posting objective historical information on the labrynth for Young Grasshoppper's information.

I never said one way or the other what I personally thought about the labrynth as anyone can see who reads my comment.

You are the one who is assuming (wrongly) that I was "defending" the labrynth.
Joycianity...that's about it. A one woman cult operator with no connection to any messianic group. If one gets down on one knee, she will find a way to contact you to allow you to join. Now it's clear.

Thanks so much for the link to this very, very revealing site:

From the home page of the site we read:
"The mystery school was established in 1006 by Fulbert, a prominent mystic and builder of his time, who became Bishop of Chartres and founded the school out of a profound intention of enabling his students to express the highest reaches of the divine human through adoration of the Divine Feminine."

I was just looking at the reading list from the Wisdom University site. It's very, very revealing.

This book by Gordon Trachan was on the list, and in particular caught my eye in light of what you said above, regarding the Knights Templar, Freemasonry and sacred geometry:

"Well-written book, both in terms of the exoteric and esoteric history around the creation of Chartres Cathedral. This book traces the history of the development of Gothic architecture from contact with the Sufis in Jerusalem, and the Islamic masons that the Knights Templar brought back from the Crusades. "

From, Here is a review of Gordon Trachan's book, "Chartres, Sacred Geometry, Sacred Space"

'Read Gordon Strachan's book and then visit Chartres with an open mind and wide vision, to find personal insight. Illustrated with beautifully prepared drawings.' - Clive Hicks, Caduceus, September 2004 'It does not matter if you know nothing of sacred geometry; by the end of this book you will have effortlessly imbued a firm understanding of what it is, and how it is. [...] It is a fascinating read. Strachan's clear explanations of measurements, together with excellent graphics, take the reader on a revelatory journey of mystical spirituality.' - Logan Lewis-Proudlock, Light magazine, Winter 2003 'An inspiring and informative resource for those interested in religious architecture.' - The Beacon, July 2004 'Will delight anybody who recognizes the influence of the built environment. Copious illustrations adorn the text, illuminate the discourse and delight the eye. Gordon Strachan has produced a labour of love, and it shows.' - Clement Jewitt, Music and Psyche, 2004 'Quite simply, we have here a magnificent building that was produced by a unique blend of masonic skills, religious ideas and earth energies. To walk through Chartres is indeed to walk through a sacred space.' - Fortean Times, April 2004 'Chartres cathedral in France is one of the most important and popular sacred sites in Western Europe. The Rev. Strachan's new study examines the spiritual geometry of the church and suggests its significance is connected to an ancient combination of pagan worship, earth energies and the mystical harmony of Christian and Islamic architecture. Highly recommended.' - The Cauldron, August 2003 'Surprisingly, there's no heresy in this book. It's beautifully produced. It opens our eyes to the story of our historic relations with Islam. The deeper theme of seeing God in the darkness as well as the light is important, and so is the link between the geometry of square roots and the mysteriousness of Gothic, and of God. God isn't in a box, and can't be contained.' The Very Revd Jim Mein, Christ Church Episcopal, Edinburgh 'It is a beautifully illustrated book which explains both the beauty and the geometry of Gothic architecture as seen in Chartres.' The Rt Revd Brian Smith, Bishop of Edinburgh 'A detailed yet reader-friendly exploration of the mathematics of Pythagorean, early-Christian and Sufi geometry, leading to applications in medieval Gothic architecture. The author ends by stating that people are drawn to explore cathedrals ... he feels there is something 'alchemical' in the very architecture of the buildings themselves. I have always felt this and now have a better idea of why. Five pentacles.' - Cerridwen Connelly, Pentacle, Winter 2003

Yup. I'm convinced now. Sacred geometry, earth energies, alchemy, labyrinths, the sacred architecture attached to the sacred geometry, etc. etc. =

I really do not want to follow any more links. I've seen enough and this stuff definitely goes back to Nimrod and Babylon. So much for smelling the roses in the English hedge gardens...

Thanks again.
Maryanne the important thing is to get as much information from neutral sources as possible. The website you are referring to is very New Age and might use information giving them credibility. Reason? There's a lot of money to be made conning people. From their website:

In addition to having increasingly valuable degrees, Wisdom University also offers several study tracks which can lead to opportunities for students who desire certification in a particular area, such as dreamwork, art and healing, healing trauma, and spiritual direction. Certificates in these areas can be very useful in developing meaningful service opportunities in your community.

What are the various programs you offer?

Our students have a variety of degree and certificate options, including:

• Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.)
• Doctor of Ministry (D.Min)
• Combined Masters/Doctorate
• Master of Arts in Wisdom Spirituality
• Master of Arts in Indigenous Mind
• Master of Arts in Art and Healing
• Certificate in Archetypal Studies and Projective Dream Work
• Certificate in Art of Spiritual Direction
• Certificate in Art and Healing
• Certificate in Nature, Trauma and the Soul

The real power is in the political end of the New Age movement. Can you see anyone moving forward in the financial or political areas based on the above degrees?
Before I lose this, I believe this is the link I posted that wouldn't open:

I think you need to examine a little more evidence before jumping the gun:

Let's look at the Prophet Jeremiah:

Jer. 10:2 ¶ Thus said the LORD: Do not learn to go the way of the nations, And do not be dismayed by portents in the sky; Let the nations be dismayed by them!
Jer. 10:3-5 For the laws of the nations are delusions: For it is the work of a craftsman’s hands. He cuts down a tree in the forest with an ax, He adorns it with silver and gold, He fastens it with nails and hammer, So that it does not totter. They are like a scarecrow in a cucumber patch, They cannot speak. They have to be carried, For they cannot walk. Be not afraid of them, for they can do no harm; Nor is it in them to do any good.

Let's look at Constantine's ruling on the Passover. You see by that time the Jews had already been celebrating Passover for 1500 years, so it didn't really take a "new council" to figure out when Passover was unless it didn't fit into Constantine's calendar:

Constantine was an anti-semite.

Sunday worship was instituted by Constantine, not God:

The Sabbath is mentioned 138 times in the Bible starting in Genesis. Sometimes it's referring to the mo'ed which also have Sabbaths within them, like the Feast of Unleavened bread starts on a Sabbath, but most of the time it's a reference to the 7th day which started at the creation.

Lev. 23:3 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

It was for EVERYONE:

Deut. 5:14 but athe seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who 1stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

The symbols, of an obelisk, sunwheel.

Some more historical links between the Catholic calendar and Constantine's calendar:

There is just so much there that was added from the 4 century on that it's hard to even know where to begin.

I don't think you are really open to examining it in the light of the Bible so I won't go on much further with the conversation.

It is clear that the kind of faith that the Apostles had didn't include things like Crusades and Inquisitions and Lent and Mardi Gras, and Easter eggs and Christmas trees. There is no evidence for these kind of practices, or setting up a "new priesthood" especially since we are now a kingdom of priests in Yeshua:

Rev. 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father — to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

When I quote specific Scriptures that are clearly in opposition to the Catholic Churches teachings like
some that I've quote already, or this you seem to avoid discussing them:

Matt. 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for aOne is your Father, He who is in heaven.

It's clear that the worship of saints is not okay when John was corrected for worshipping a messenger:

Rev. 22:9 But ahe *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

s. 42:8 “aI am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.

It's clear that the Catholic Churches and Cathedrals are filled with graven images, so how does the church justify all of these direct violations of the Scriptures?

Instead of addressing these or asking yourself is it possible that I might be right about them, you are defending the Church.

Confession should be to one another not to a priest. That means it's a two way street:

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Look at what Isaiah says about the Torah, which is the word used in this verse:

Is. 8:16 Bind up the testimony, bseal the 1law among my disciples.

Are we not disciples? What is Yeshua's Word? It's the entire Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelations:

John 8:31 ¶So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “aIf you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Matt. 5:17 -19“Do not think that I came to abolish the aLaw or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. “For truly I say to you, auntil heaven and earth pass away, not 1the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches 1others to do the same, shall be called least ain the kingdom of heaven; but whoever 2keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Is not the Forth Commandment one of the Commandments?

Did not the Catholic Church at the Council of Nicea officially annul the 7th day Sabbath that God Himself instituted?

Ex. 20:8 “Remember athe sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex. 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it ayou shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who 1stays with you.
Ex. 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘aFor six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a bsabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; cwhoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to 1celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

It's for the sojourner, its for the alien, it's perpetual5769. MDlwøo {owlam, o-lawm´; or MDlOo {olam, o-lawm´; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:—alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare 5331, 5703.

This is the definition of olam. In Genesis we see the Sabbath and God said we were to sanctify it.

The fourth commandment in the fourth millennium is all about Yeshua who is from the fourth tribe of Israel, Judah and God never, ever, ever cancelled it. He never, ever changed it to Sunday and the Catholic church is well aware of this. It's one of the criticisms they've used against Protestants who hold to their teaching on this.

1Tim. 4:2-3 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

God instituted marriage between man and woman and never said to abstain from it, nor are we to abstain from meat on Fridays. Anything that is considered food, as Scripture delineates is good and should be consumed with thanks.

The Catholic sacraments are man-made. What we call "eucharist" is a bad substitute for the Passover meal because transubstantiation ( the little host becomes Yeshua) is another invention of the Catholic Church. It was a memorial of the Passover meal when Yeshua would become the Passover Lamb on the Biblical date of Passover.

Baptism is always done by immersion because it comes from the mikvah which is what Yeshua modeled Himself when He went in the Jordan River, complete immersion not a little sprinkle of water, and not for infants upon birth, but upon the confession of Yeshua.

Circumcision was at birth on the 8th day, but baptism entails repentance for our sins, the kind of baptism which is done when we accept Yeshua. An infant is incapable of this. Key word here, Repent"

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is Peter talking, the so-called "head of the Catholic Church" who tells people to "repent" . A baby is incapable of repenting.

Baptism does not bring salvation, faith does. Now we can commit our children to the Lord and pray for them to follow, but each man or woman must decide for themselves.

Deut. 24:16 ¶ “aFathers shall not be put to death 1for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death 1for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

We have personal responsibility for our sin, thus, personal responsibility for our repentance. The Father or head of family can decide that his household will follow the Lord, but ultimately each individual will decide who he serves. Our parents can can't decide for us. I know many a godly parent who has raised and educated their kids in the Bible and the child decides to rebel as an adult. An infant baptism will not save them. Their repentance and faith in Yeshua is the only thing that will.

I mentioned the indulgences which were sold by the Catholic Church, which is an abomination.

Matt. 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.

Look what Peter, the one the Catholics call the first pope says:

Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could aobtain the gift of God with money!

Rev. 17:3-4 And ahe carried me away 1bin the Spirit cinto a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having fseven heads and ten horns. The woman awas clothed in purple and scarlet, and 1adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality.

I'm not endorsing this website, but they have depicted very well what this verse is talking about. It's evidence in black and white and gold, purple and scarlet:

Susanna, you can continue to defend the Church. I won't even talk about the molestation of children and priests who were moved from parish to parish..

Matt. 18:6 but awhoever bcauses one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it 1would be better for him to have a 2heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Do you think those little ones stumbled when the "authority figures" the priests who had been held up as models of piety performed grotesque sexual acts on them.

The Pope did a little nothing gesture to try to make this up after years of neglecting the problem...The Catholic Church should have allowed these men to be prosecuted as the criminals that they were, not cover up for them and move them to another parish so that they could repeat the same thing elsewhere..

There is evidence that the church turned their backs on these children that they were charged with bringing up in the knowledge of the Lord.. Do you think they caused these "little ones" to stumble? I do..

Stop defending the Catholic Church and look at the evidence based on the Scriptures, not on the Vatican website. Allow yourself to think for yourself, not be guided by the very self-serving people who have created this job security for centuries to the point where rather than exposing child molesters they moved them around and gave them another shot at some new children.

I realize this is not everyone, but the institutional neglect of this problem was striking. The money that was awarded is not adequate to recompense someone for a stolen childhood and broken trust. Since these men represented "God" supposedly, I suspect many of the victims had a hard time with their relationship with God being restored.

God is gracious and merciful, so I'm sure He can intervene, but no thanks to the Roman Catholic Church who did too little too late.

This is what happens when an organization thinks they have a monopoly.

They burnt people at the stakes. I suppose this was from good pure heart motives. Jews in order to survive the INquisition either had to convert or flee. Are you denying all of this history Susanna? You cannot. It's documented.

What has Rome done to repent. The "holy" Father acts like a powerful world leader meeting with heads of State in his bullet proof vehicle with his flowing robes and gold and waves his hand like he's some God appointed prophet. He's not.. The word pope is non-existent in the Bible.

Now he's meeting with Muslims talking about ecumenic unity, but it's not that he seeks, but power and control for the Roman Catholic Church. I know people that lived in countries that were colonized by Catholics. Some of the stories are incredible. You have no idea.

You might love the Lord and want to follow Him, but if you do open up your eyes and listen to His Word and see if you can reckon the teachings of Catholicism with the Words of Scripture.

Instead of defending yourself against me, why not just look at the Scriptures I've posted and see what you think? Remove the dogma and look at the word of God. The Catholic Church has annulled it with their man-made traditions.

They are guilty of giving God another face.. as evidenced by all of the statues and paintings they've commissioned throughout the centuries, a forbidden practice in the Scriptures.

p.s sorry some of the links might not work and I dont have time to go back and search for them, but just look at the Scriptures.. That should be ample proof of what I'm saying.
This link shows in pictures what I've been talking about:

The Catholic Church can accept "theistic evolution"


Oh, I guess the Catholic Church forgot that we are made in God's image, and thus we did not evolve from the snake.

Talk about babel and confusion. This is the ultimate.

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