Friday, August 29, 2008

The Hi-Jacking of Evangelicalism, Part IV

THE HI-JACKING OF EVANGELICALISM
Part IV


In part III I told of my personal experiences witnessing a “CAUSA” conference. It purported to be an “alternative to Marxism,” non-Unification Church event. However, it was obviously operated and controlled by Unification Church and nearly all speakers praised Rev. Moon and Unification Church. When its organizers discovered they had invited an “enemy,” they took steps to immediately isolate and deport me back to Detroit. Two years later, I had an unexpected encounter with Tim LaHaye on the subject.

It was February 7, 1986. I left Washington, D.C. for speaking engagements in Colorado Springs. I did not see Tim LaHaye again while in Washington. I was scheduled to speak in Monument, Colorado and thereafter for a Colorado Eagle Forum Friday-Saturday conference. From there I was taken to Denver for a busy and intense schedule that would span the next two weeks.

Monday, February 10th, I was taken by the Committee to Furrs Cafeteria. We obtained our food and had just seated. Suddenly we heard, “Paging Wanda Leonard. Paging Wanda Leonard.” We were fearful that there was an emergency with her husband and/or children. Wanda answered the page. She then summoned me. She said, “Tim LaHaye is on the phone. He said, “This is the Rev. Tim LaHaye calling from Washington, D.C. “ she said, “yes,.” He said, “I understand you had a certain woman named Constance Cumbey speak at your conference.” Wanda said “yes.” He then said, “I understand she quoted from a sleazy left wing magazine.” Wanda said, “well, Tim, Constance is here. I think you should speak with her yourself.”

“Fine, put her on,” said Tim LaHaye.

I told Wanda, “Wanda, I am not about to debate with Tim LaHaye on Furrs Cafeteria’s only phone, located by their cash register, at the height of their rush hour -- especially when my own lunch is getting cold. He’ll have to call me later."

After lunch I had a cordial meeting with the pastor of a large Presbyterian church in Colorado Springs. Then we hurried to Wanda Leonard’s house for the 3:30 telephone conference she had scheduled between Dr. LaHaye and myself.

The phone rang. Wanda answered it and then handed it to me. Tim LaHaye started by apologizing for not getting back to me in Washington, D.C. the week before. Then he abruptly said, “You said that I was part of the New Age Movement.” I was startled. “I said no such thing,” I replied.

He next said, “well, you quoted from a sleazy left wing magazine. He was obviously referring to Carolyn Weaver’s important article, "The Moonies and the Christian Right" that had recently appeared in
Mother Jones Magazine.[1]

I said, “well, Tim, was it true?” He repeated, “it’s a sleazy left wing magazine.” I said, “Tim, I don’t care if it was the Moscow Journal. Was it true? Did she make it all up?”

He did not answer. I then told him of the experience I had with the Unification Church group, CAUSA and the admission they had made to me combined with the clear pronouncements that Rev. Moon was “the Lord of the Second Advent.” He didn’t want to hear, but I finished the story. I then said, “Tim, there were clear biblical warnings about going to Egypt for help against Assyria.”

“I never went to Egypt,” said Tim LaHaye. “No, you went to Rev. Moon and Bo Hi Pak. That’s even worse." I told Tim LaHaye that in my opinion God did not need twenty five cents worth of Unification Church money to build his Kingdom.”

I was amazed at what Tim LaHaye said next. He said, “I never took any money from Bo Hi Pak or Unification Church.” “Oh?,” I replied.

He said, “the liberal controlled Washington Post refused to give ACTV [American Coalition for Traditional Values] any publicity. So I contacted Bo Hi Pak who arranged for a series of stories to appear in the Washington Times. I was writing to thank him for those stories."

I said, “Tim, would you seriously like that explanation presented to a jury?” He was silent. I note for the record that that the context of the letter was clearly financial. Moreover, it appeared to be priming the pump for more Unification Church contributions.

I said, “Tim, if you only knew how many people have contacted me about their churches being ruined because their ministers accepted invitations for Korean trips and came back changed.”

“I knew that was happening,” said Tim LaHaye. “That’s why I resigned from Coalition for Religious Freedom.” “Yes, but you didn’t resign from ACTV, you didn’t resign from Family Life Seminars,” I replied.

Tim then said that he had been involved in Coalition for Religious Freedom for religious liberty issues. I told him that it was my understanding that Rev. Moon’s prosecution had nothing to do with religious liberty issues whatsoever. It was a tax fraud case, pure and simple. Rev. Moon had produced some allegedly 15 year old affidavits to prove that he had been holding property in trust from Unification Church members. The IRS had done their standard watermark testing and discovered that the documents were very new ones.

Tim then said, “look, we’re both on the same side. You call it the New Age Movement. I call it secular humanism – it’s the same thing.”

I said, “well, Tim, I have an idea. Since we both agree that Unification Church is bad and we both agree they have been using your name unfairly to their advantage, why don’t you publicly denounce them? That way, they won’t be able to use your name to advantage anymore.”

Tim LaHaye literally snarled, “I’ll be the judge of that!” Then he slammed the telephone down without saying goodbye. I never spoke with him again.

A few weeks later, I was speaking in the Seattle area. Angie Schiermeyer, my West Coast coordinator answered a ringing telephone. On the other end was the Washington Concerned Women of America coordinator. She told Angie she had just returned from a CWA leadership conference, held, as I recall, in Houston. All fifty state coordinators were there. She said Beverly LaHaye instructed them that nobody should “give Constance Cumbey a platform.” When they questioned why, she reportedly said that I had called the LaHayes New Agers in my latest book (none of my books have ever mentioned the LaHayes) and I had attacked a dear friend of theirs (referring to Pat Robertson whom I had critiqued for among other things, promoting Jeremy Rifkin’s New Age agenda and telling his viewers that when the Bible said ‘every eye shall behold him,’ it mean ‘on television.’

I, Constance Cumbey, was the new enemy!

Per Angie, the coordinator said that until Beverly LaHaye had given her directive, they didn’t even know my second book was out – several of them had immediately thereafter rushed to local bookstores to buy it.

Encouragingly, however, over the years some courageously resisted Unification Church lures and pressures.

A Minnesota conservative activist James Racer was moved to write a pamphlet warning about the dangers of networking with Unification Church. He was urge to silence (as I so often was) by those who said he would damage the conservative cause by speaking. Here is what Racer so cogently presented:


"Many conservatives would rather not have this information made public, fearing that it will "damage the movement." I suggest that no one needs to fear the truth. If the conservative movement is based on fraud and deception, which it would be if this truth is stifled, then it deserves to be damaged.

"...Moon has, in the AFC, a tremendous vehicle to assist his political movement in the USA. Combining the thousands of black church leaders trained through various Moon-linked organizations with the new-found political power and savvy of the so-called New Right Christian activists, many who would be attracted to Christian Voice, would have a profound impact on America and the world.

"What Moon adds to this political formula which has been missing in almost all concentrated conservative organizing efforts is millions of dollars and hundreds of committed 'volunteers,' the true believers and followers of Moon... Regardless of what Dr. [Robert] Grant, Bob Wilson, Richard Ichord, Dr. Ralph Abernathy, Richard Viguerie, Gary Jarmin, Dan Peterson, or any of the other hundreds of officers and leaders involved in AFC believe, the documentation I received after my resignation provided to me that the Rev. Sun Myung Moon has a plan for America, and that his plan includes the American Freedom Coalition.”

Equally disturbing as Tim LaHaye’s apparent compromise was Jerry Falwell’s. Jerry Falwell would speak at the 1987 CAUSA program, 4 years after my own encounter as a keynote speaker for CAUSA. If he ever uttered a word against the New Age Movement, I never heard of it. Perhaps others did. Again the lure for him was obviously money. Moon had reportedly bailed his university out of a financial crisis.

What could have been persuasive voices against religious apostasy and the New Age Movement, including one of its more odious expressions in the form of Rev. Moon who claimed to be “the Lord of the Second Advent” had been either muted or silenced.


Next Week: Part V of this expanding series. Will include “the twelve” involved with Abraham (Abram) Vereide and Marian Johnson in the formative years of Fellowship Foundation. Included in the discussion will be Frank Laubach, Norman Grubb, and Glenn Clark of Camps Farthest Out.” Was it Christianity, or was it badly disguised theosophy? The influence of Frank Buchman and MRA (Moral Rearmament Movement).


Comments:
Hi
Have you ever heard of my polar cities idea. in NYTimes now. see below\

pls tell me what you think pro or con. Do you think, i mean , WHO will admin these opolar cities?

danny bloom
Tufts 1971

--
POLAR CITIES BLUEPRINTS:
http://pcillu101.blogspot.com
 
Hello, Danny Bloom,

Interesting you should visit my blogspot. Yours is certainly of professional interest to me as wel as deep curiosity.

I have been aware of James Lovelock for years and frankly disturbed at his GAIA concept, i.e., that the earth is worthy of worship as a living entity.

I feel that this is a clear divide,i.e. Revelation 14:7-8 which contains warnings that those on the earth should "fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of his judgment is come . . . worship God who created the heaven and the earth, the sea and the fountains of waters . . ."

Lovelock and those like minded were worshipping just about everything else.

With that being said, however, I must admit that you have displayed brilliance in conceiving and laying out your impressively crafted blogspot and the concept.

Now, you know that Lovelock and Gaian philosophies are not the only game in town, so feel free to visit and interact with us here.

Sincerely,

CONSTANCE E. CUMBEY
 
I expect my Part IV might be up on NewswithViews Sunday. In the meantime, however, Marsha West has a critically important article up on Todd Bentley and the New Apostolic Reform meeting. It deserves careful reading and compliments to its author.

http://www.newswithviews.com/West/marsha73.htm

Constance
 
SQUEAKBOX has been active over at Wikipedia again. He has once again rewritten Solana's ancestry, erasing Solana's mother, Nieves Mathews. This is no doubt because of the clearly traceable Sufism / Krishnamurti ties of Solana's grandfather. Squeakbox uses as a footnote other sites he rewrote.

WHAT KIND OF A MAN DENIES HIS MOTHER?

In my opinion both Solana and Squeakbox are up to major mischief. I'm too fatigued to go over and do the correcting right now, but I'm thinking about doing it. Now SQUEAKBOX says he believes Haile Selassie was and is God. No doubt, he ascribes similar deity to Javier Solana.

Stay tuned!

Constance
 
danny bloom,
pls tell me what you think pro or con. Do you think, i mean , WHO will admin these opolar cities?

I agree with Constance: “I must admit that you have displayed brilliance in conceiving and laying out your impressively crafted blogspot and the concept.”

Amazing how you remind me of Rush, only from the left. I’m sure you haven’t missed the weight of debris that volcanoes spew into the atmosphere or the environmental damage that results from war, and maybe you have considered the indebted costs we have burdened ourselves with to pay for the wars to come, the health care issues (not only in America) on a global scale, which our politicians have decided our children and grandchildren must pay, but I wonder, have you considered how to protect your Si-Fi cities from aggressors?
May be you could convert to Islam and get the Iranians to protect your utopia.
“The carnal mind is enmity against God.”
“Their throat is an open sepulcher: with their tongues they have used deceit. . .”
I doubt that many here like Si-Fi, but I do. “Beyond the sealed world”, I think that was the title of a book I read in the early sixties, reminds me of your Polar cites; you might see if you can find it because much of what you intimate was dreamed of long ago; the nature of man, his perceived origins and purpose lead in different directions.
 
Constance I think this latest series of articles written by you are vitally important.
The need to understand the under currents driving and plaguing so called Christianity runs so deep.
I just want to say thanks and hope all are reading them carefully.

DouginMI
 
Wow Constance !

I mean , ...WOW.
The truth has a way of resonating in my brain and after reading this latest entry of yours my whole body is resonating.
The love of money is indeed the root of all evil
Thank you.

Paul
 
Those personal experiences are powerful. Thank you Dorothy for sharing (in a previous post), and thank you Constance for this latest series.

With the beginning of the school year just around the corner, I thought yesterday would be a good time to take my kids to Silverwood Theme Park in Athol, Idaho. We spent the sunny 85 degree near perfect Idaho afternoon at the water park, shooting down the water slides and floating in the “lazy river”. After dinner we moved over to the roller coasters and fast paced daredevil rides. I’ve been suffering from a neck injury, so instead of riding those jarring coasters, I rode a park bench for some in depth people watching.

A group of mentally disabled people from a state run institution called Lakeland Village were also enjoying the park. One large man in particular caught my attention. Rolled along in a wheelchair by his “care provider”, this severely mentally disabled man jumped abruptly out of the chair and made a rather circuitous bee line for one of the more stomach churning attractions. His attendant did a masterful job of slowing the man down so that he didn’t bowl people over. Obviously this man was ambulatory, but not very steady on his feet or mindful of other people’s “space”. It was obvious he wanted to go on the ride, but it was also clear that his understanding of “lines” was less than perfect. His agitation and frustration, perhaps fueled by his inability to verbally articulate a lifetime of needs and wants, was readily apparent.

Later, while waiting for my wife and son to exit from the newest hang by the seat of your pants inverted steel monster roller coaster, I was blessed to see this same man and his care provider exiting the ride. You couldn’t help notice the man because his grin was a mile wide and seemed permanently etched on his face. No longer agitated or frustrated, this man had been, at least for the moment, fulfilled.

Joy much greater than that found in a carnival ride will come to those who seek the Lord. Unlike the joy experienced after “surviving” an adrenaline pumping amusement park ride, (or building a great monument such as a “polar city”), the Lord's joy will not fade over time.

Most of us realize we are approaching a global political and spiritual crisis. This isn't a carnival ride. Closer to home, we see a failing education system, the results of failed parenting, and perhaps even the infiltration of hot “new age” ideas into our rapidly cooling churches. This American generation in particular appears to be rolled in layers of insulating fat. If I were the devil I’d say all systems were flowing along quite nicely towards a tipping point that will come when enough people are convinced that life has no real meaning, that it’s all just a great big carnival ride with no real eternal value outside of some fleeting momentary self gratification. I am mindful of spiritual leaders who take great pride in publishing works of fiction or making elaborate prayers on television. Carnival rides both.

What goes through a person’s mind just before the coaster tops out and begins it's point of no return high speed descent down those steep tracks towards a series of inverted violent turns? Do we pray that some scruffy looking y-generation ride attendant paid attention during his safety training class? Do we pray that the designer’s knowledge and the welder’s skill won’t fail us?

Two thoughts from scripture come to mind...

The sheep hear the Shepherd's voice...

and

The stone that the builder's rejected has become the capstone.
 
Listen live to Prophecy Conference right now. Good stuff.

http://www.calvarychapelcostamesa.com/
 
To Old Man of the Ski,

Your very thoughtful comments nearly left me in tears. Thank you!

Constance
 
Constance

This is really important work you are doing. Thanks. Do not neglect your Bible because of all of the intrigue you live with. Very important.

Steve S.
 
I found a few typos which I corrected, so please refresh this page so I won't blush in embarrassment so much.

Thanks!

Constance
 
Even though I am a Roman Catholic, I am following your series, THE HI-JACKING OF EVANGELICALISM with great interest because we Catholics not only have our own fair share of "charismatic" false prophets but also a certain "cross-pollination" seems to have occurred between the Catholic false prophets and the Protestant false prophets.

One of them used to have a "prophecy blog," and was promoting a "prophetess" named "Wendy" and her God TV enterprise that has sponsored Todd Bentley and Fresh Fire Ministries.

In fact, Cerrie Tomko blogged about this on
August 1, 2007 in an article entitled:

WENDY AND THE ISRAEL TOUR 2008

http://tinyurl.com/628zsw

I wonder if Todd Bentley is going to be "rehabilitated" in time for the Fresh Fire Israel tour scheduled for November,2008?

http://tinyurl.com/5fgsyt
 
To Old Man of the Sky,

Bravo! Especially for your insightful comment,

"What goes through a person’s mind just before the coaster tops out and begins it's point of no return high speed descent down those steep tracks towards a series of inverted violent turns?"

The key words that ought to especially stop every evildoer in his/her tracks:

"point of no return high speed descent."

For beleivers in Christ, there is the promise that the "descent" on the roller coaster of this earthly life is but a temporary prelude to a glorious "ascent."

"No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day." John 6:44
 
Constance,
Is Squeakbox the originator of Rastfarianism ?

I ask because I know that you've done the homework.
I had thought it was more Marcus Garvey.
Either way I think it's funny that in fact Heile Sallassie was a Christian who attended church regularly, so it's funny because he never even mentioned that he was Jesus re-incarnated.
You'd think he would have said something.

Paul
 
Paul,

You piqued my curiosity so I checked out Selassie. Here is what I found.
____________________________

"Haile Selassie I was the titular head of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and, until his visit to Jamaica in 1966, he had never confirmed nor denied that he was divine.

During his visit he specifically declined to refute the Rastafari belief that he was God.

After his return to Ethiopia, he dispatched Archbishop Abuna Yesehaq Mandefro to the Caribbean to help draw Rastafarians and other West Indians to the Ethiopian church and, according to some sources, denied his divinity.

In 1948, Haile Selassie donated a piece of land at Shashamane, 250 km south of Addis Ababa, for the use of Blacks from the West Indies. Numerous Rastafari families settled there and there is a community there to this day."

http://tinyurl.com/67cx23


Belief in Selassie's "messiahship" and "divinity' is based on the claim that Selassie is "the heir to a dynasty that traced its origins to the 13th century, and from there by tradition back to King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba." (Kind of an Ethiopian version of HOLY BLOOD HOLY GRAIL?)

In any case, Haile Selassie is "a defining figure in Ethiopian and African history."

http://tinyurl.com/67cx23

At least one thing in Selassie's favor was his opposition to Benito Mussolini during the Second World War.

http://tinyurl.com/o67wh
 
Dear Constance,

Found both yours and Farmer's recent comments re. 2009 interesting, as in addition to the recent op/ed piece in the IHT calling for Dr. Solana to take over U.S. led Israeli-Palestinian negotiations from Nov.'08 through April '09,

( http://tinyurl.com/6fuvcx

or

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/26/opinion/edperthes.php )

EU elections are scheduled for June '09 and things will be "winding down" (as they are for the Bush admin.) in April '09, which might provide advantageous conditions for a military takeover by the 10-nation WEU, in the event of a declared emergency.

Note: The EU is the biggest donor of the P.A.

Signed,

An Admirer
 
Solana appears to be taking advantage of USA preoccupation with the elections to consolidate his European and African/Middle East positions.

Constance
 
I just found this material on a website dealing with something called "The Modern History Project." If this is true, it is significant. Does anybody here have any knowledge of something called "Synarchy"? The following material is cut and pasted from this site:

http://tinyurl.com/5p6ac4

'Warfare Theology' and the 'Fellowship' of Fascists (1940s- )

Yet another Anglo-American Synarchist operation was launched in the immediate aftermath of the "Churchill tilt" against Hitler and the Eurasian Fascist bloc. This operation aimed at penetrating Western military and political circles through the promotion of a sophisticated "God of Thunder" cult.

The ostensible initiator of this effort was Abraham Vereide, a fundamentalist Christian who had been a leading agitator in Seattle, Washington against the so-called 'Red Menace' during the 1920s and early 1930s. One of the weapons Vereide had introduced into the West Coast Palmer Raid psychosis was the prayer breakfast, a vehicle for bringing together business, finance, and government leaders, under a broad anti-communist umbrella.

In fact, the idea of such prayer-centered networks was first launched in the 1850s by British military officers posted in colonial India. They established the British Officers' Christian Union and, later, the Soldiers' and Airmen's Scripture Readers Association.

In 1930, delegates from four nations, Germany, Britain, Holland, and Sweden, met for the first time in Zuylen Castle in Holland and founded the Association of Military Christian Fellowship (AMCF). The first president of the group was a Dutchman, Baron Von Tuyll. The founders' aim was to establish a "non-political" international fellowship with no visible central organization, no budget, and no staff, except for the president. The AMCF, over the ensuing decades, would establish branches in 120 nations. The American branch, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, was headed, for years, by Marine Lt. Col. Tom Hemmingway, who had been Oliver North's commanding officer in Vietnam, and who recruited North to the group.

Vereide arrived in Washington, D.C. in 1942 and, in collusion with the British Air Attache and officials of the Anglican Church, launched the International Christian Leadership organization, later to be renamed The Fellowship Foundation. The group would directly promote the careers of such Christian Zionist fundamentalists as Harald Bredesen and his protege, Pat Robertson, and would heavily penetrate the U.S. military, the U.S. Congress, and other powerful institutions.

International Christian Leadership was fully unfurled as a project of the postwar Anglo-Dutch Synarchists, when Vereide was insinuated as the "spiritual advisor" to the Dutch Royal Consort, Prince Bernhard, founder of both the Bilderberg Group and, with Britain's Royal Consort, Prince Philip, the World Wildlife Fund.

As Vereide's leading protege Bredesen wrote, Vereide had "won Prince Bernhard for Christ" -- quite a claim, given that Bernhard had been a leading wartime Nazi, who had served as secretary to the board of directors of I.G. Farben, the Nazi chemical cartel. Upon marrying the Dutch monarch, Queen Juliana, Bernhard had purged the Court and installed another "former" Nazi as personal secretary to the Queen, Baron van der Hoeven. This Baron's son, Jan Willem van der Hoeven, obtained his degree in divinity from London University, and, in 1980, founded the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem, along with Jerry Falwell and other American and British rabid Christian Zionist promoters of the imminent Armageddon.

Baron von Tuyll, who was to head the Association of Military Christian Fellowships, was also tapped by Prince Bernhard as the Lord Chamberlain for Queen Juliana.

The International Christian Leadership organization of Vereide, today known as the Fellowship Foundation, runs an international series of prayer breakfasts, maintains safehouse residences in world capitals including Washington and London, and claims a global membership of 20,000, and an official annual budget of $10 million. In both the United States and Britain, the Fellowship also runs the Prison Fellowship Ministries of convicted Watergate felon Charles Colson.

The British branch, closely aligned with the Conservative Party, also maintains close working ties with another longstanding Fabian Society "religious" front, the Christian Socialist Movement, with which Tony Blair is closely affiliated.

Washington sources have identified both current Speaker of the House Tom DeLay (R-Texas) and Gen. William "Jerry" Boykin, the current Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, as leading members of the Fellowship. Boykin is under Pentagon investigation for comments he made in 2003 at a fundamentalist church, calling for a "crusade" against Islam, which he called a "Satanic" religion.

In March 2003, Harper's magazine published an eyewitness account by Jeffrey Sharlet of his tenure as a resident at the Fellowship communal mansion in Arlington, Va. Sharlet described a Fellowship session, led by the group's current leader, Vereide protege Douglas Coe. Coe described the "covenant" of secrecy made between members of the group, who operate in cell structures. Coe asked the participating Fellowship members for an example of such a covenant, and he received an immediate reply: "Hitler." Coe answered, "Yes, Hitler made a covenant. The Mafia makes a covenant. It is such a very powerful thing."

Coe's son later gave the disciples a brief class on the life of Genghis Khan, describing a particularly bloody incident in which he beheaded his enemies, stuffed the heads into a crate, and all the while devoured his dinner. Sharlet quoted the young Coe: If you are a known friend of Jesus,

"You can go and do anything. When you leave here," he continued, "you're not only going to know the value of Jesus. You're going to know the people who rule the world."
 
WELL, reading this more carefully, it may be DISINFORMATION:

Harald Bredesen did have ties to Abraham Vereide. BUT, he had ties to Cornelius Vanderbreggen, the man who Pat Robertson said had led him to the Lord and Bredesen personally lied to me about those same ties . . .

Cornelius Vanderbreggen is as openly an anti-Jewish person as I have ever met . . . He was part of Liberty Lobby's organization. Liberty Lobby among other dubious pursuits vigorously denied the Holocaust. Clearly, from the context of their SPOTLIGHT MAGAZINE, they would love to have another!

Constance
 
This is interesting -- and disturbing -- this includes an interview Jeff Sharlet gave to a pagan group. I am disturbed that he downplays the New Age influence (how can he ever call insider Paul Temple a fundamentalist Christian of any type -- as he speaks of the inside group, which Temple clearly is, I assume he includes him -- or does Sharlet just not understand). At any rate, this is why the occult background of THE FELLOWSHIP must come out -- the New Agers, witches, pagans are trying to lay it on "Christian Fundamentalism." It now clearly appears to me the the entire base of "The Twelve" who met with Vereide at Marian Johnson's home in Washington,D.C. on embassy row was far closer to standard Theosophy than they were to the Christianity which they were using as a foil and a cover.

http://www.wildhunt.org/labels/books.html

Constance
 
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 
Dear Oldmanoftheski-
Your post touched my heart especially because I'm a mother of a 16 year old son who has Autism and moderate MR. Although my sonshine would never find joy in a roller coaster, he finds great joy in swimming (which is good as we live in Arizona and he can swim practically year round)and in playing his guitar. Believe me, we've run the course over the years with every type of therapy and treatment imaginable (and we've come across some seriously NA stuff as a result) and praise God we are firmly planted in our faith in Him or we would have become as desperate as many others that we know. In 2002,I became involved with a leadership/advocacy group who lobbies for special needs and therapeutic programs for the disabled. One exercise they had us participate in at the beginning was to draw a timeline (in pictures) of our lives from the birth of our special needs child to the point in our lives that had led us to participate in that group. Nearly everyone drew black clouds=depression, rain=overwhelming sorrow, thick fog=uncertainty, whirlwinds= desperation and a separation from the track of life they dreamed that they'd be running on with their families. All I drew was a cross=our salvation, sheltering wings=His covering from the storms of this life, holding hands=He'll never leave us or forsake us (Deut 31:6), a track with my family and friends on it= for we'll run the race that He has set before us with great courage and great hope because He is with us always and we have nothing to fear.
So I agree with you wholeheartedly -"Joy much greater than that found in a carnival ride will come to those who seek the Lord." Amen!
-SV
 
This comment has been removed by the author.
 
Hope you enjoyed the campaign fun . . . a little laughter in these serious times is sometimes healthy!

Constance
 
Constance, I know about the Frensh synarchists who started "synarchy"...it is connected with Fabianism and in our region used also as a synonyme for "conspiracy".
farmer
 
Just a comment.

The reason for the trimming of Solana's family tree branches may be a bit more sinister in all. "IF" and I mean if he were to be the man some believe he may be (verdicts out here) He would need a more jewish bloodline in order for jews to follow him as a messiah, this would be false messiah 101 would it not? Just a thought that entered my mind reading Constance's post
 
http://tinyurl.com/6l74ox

A great show by Ingrid Shlueter interviewing Sarah Leslie. It's entitled :

Growing Hostility Toward Biblical Christianity...from Evangelicals.

I think it adds a little information to Constance's recent posts.

Blessings, Deannie
 
Hi Constance,

Synarchy was first developed by a French Martinist/Occultist named Marquis Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre (1842-1909). Synarchy seems to have been a prelude to the "all is one" philosophy and "one world government."

D'Alveydre is said to have had a great influence on another occultist named Papus who was associated with H.P. Blavatsky.
_________________________________

DEVELOPMENT OF SYNARCHY

"Saint-Yves used the term Synarchy in his book La France vraie to describe what he believed was the ideal form of government. In reaction to the emergence of anarchist ideologies and movements, Saint-Yves had elaborated a more conservative political-theological formula over a series of 4 books from 1882 onwards which he believed would lead to a harmonious society by viewing it as an organic unity. This ideal was partially based on his idealised view of life in medieval Europe and also on his ideas about successful government in India, Atlantis and Ancient Egypt. He defended social differentiation and hierarchy with co-operation between social classes, transcending conflict between social and economic groups: Synarchy, as opposed to anarchy. Specifically, Saint-Yves envisioned an European society with a government composed of three councils, representing economic power, judicial power, and scientific community, of which the metaphysical chamber bound the whole structure together. These ideas were also influenced by works such as Plato's The Republic and by Martinism.

As part of this concept of government Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre, gave an important role to secret societies or, more precisely, esoteric societies, which are composed of oracles and who safeguarded the government from behind the scenes. He saw the Knights Templar as having fulfilled this role in medieval Europe and was involved with a number of Freemason and other groups who claimed descent from the Templars.

CONTACT WITH AGARTHA

In the year 1885 Saint-Yves was supposedly visited by a group of Eastern Initiates, one of them being named prince Hardjij Scharipf. It was then he associated synarchy with "ascended masters" based in subterranean caverns of Agartha, who supposedly communicated with him telepathically.. He wrote about this secret location in his "Mission de l'Inde en Europeä" published in 1886. Worried he revealed too much he destroyed all but two copies of this book it did not become available again till 1910.

Saint-Yves believed that an ancient synarchist world government was transferred to Agartha within a hollow Earth at the start of the Kali-Yuga era, around 3,200 B.C.[4] Saint-Yves d'Alveydre was the man who really introduced the concept of Agartha to the Western world.....read more....

http://tinyurl.com/6epmp2
_______________________________

Here is a separate article on Synarchism:
____________________________

"Synarchism (from Greek words meaning "to rule together" or "harmonious rule") is a word that has been used to describe several different political processes in various contexts....

RULE BY ESOTERIC SOCIETIES

Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre, an occultist, also used the word "synarchy" to describe a form of government where political power effectively rests with secret societies or, more precisely, esoteric societies, which are composed of oracles. He associated this form of governance with "ascended masters" in subterranean caverns of Agartha, who supposedly communicated with him telepathically. Saint-Yves believed that this synarchist world government was transferred to a hollow Earth at the start of the Kali-Yuga era, around 3,200 B.C..........

FRENCH SYNARCHISM

According to former OSS officer William Langer (Our Vichy Gamble, Alfred A Knopf, New York, 1947), there were French industrial and banking interests who "even before the war, had turned to Nazi Germany and had looked to Hitler as the savior of Europe from Communism... These people were as good fascists as any in Europe... Many of them had extensive and intimate business relations with German interests and were still dreaming of a new system of "synarchy", which meant government of Europe on fascist principles by an international brotherhood of financiers and industrialists." This view was originally based on the discovery of a document called pacte synarchique following the death of Jean Coutrot, former member of the Groupe X-Crise group, in May 15, 1941. According to this confused document, a Mouvement Synarchique d'Empire had been founded in 1922, with the aim of abolishing parliamentarianism and replacing it with synarchy. This has led to the belief that La Cagoule was the armed branch of french synarchism, and that some important members of the Vichy Regime such as Pierre Pucheu, Jacques Barnaud, Gabriel Le Roy Ladurie, Jacques Benoist-Méchin, Yves Bouthillier, François Lehideux or Henry Du Moulin de Labarthète were synarchists. An investigation was in fact ordered by the Vichy governement, leading to the Rapport Chavin[9] but no evidence for the existence of the Mouvement Synarchiste d'Empire was found. Most of the presumed synarchists were either associated with the Banque Worms or with Groupe X-Crise and were closed to Admiral François Darlan, and this has led to the belief that synarchists had engineered the military defeat of France for the profit of Banque Worms. Historian Annie Lacroiz-Riz wrote a book on this subject, titled Le choix de la défaite : Les élites françaises dans les années 1930 (The Choice of Defeat: the French elites in the 1930s, 2006 [10]. This belief system has been dismissed as a "work of a paranoid imagination which wove together the histories of three disparate groups of activists, creating a conspiracy among them where non existed". [11] In fact, some historians suspect that the Pacte Synarchique was a hoax created by some members of La Cagoule to weaken Darlan and his technocrats and that the Mouvement Synarchique d'Empire never existed. According to this view, the Vichy regime would have found the conspiracy theories about synarchy convenient to justify the repression of secret societies such as freemasonry, and thus did not bother to dispell the rumors concerning synarchy....read entire article....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synarchism
________________________________

Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre -1842 - died on February 5, 1909 - and is buried in the cemetery at Notre Dame.

Saint-Yves d'Alveydre, together with contemporaries like Eliphas Levi, Maitre Philippe, and Fabre d'Olivet, belonged to the most influential spiritual teachers/philosophers of France in the 19th century. Saint-Yves may be looked upon as a 19th century profound thinker, philosopher and mystic.

Being an occultist, Saint-Yves believed in the existence of spiritually superior beings. These 'beings' could be contacted telepathically. Apparently Saint-Yves claimed that he was in touch with these 'superiors' himself, as a matter of fact the principles of 'Synarchy' were partially received telepathically from these 'Masters'.

According to Saint-Yves these 'Masters' with whom he claimed to be in contact lived in the mysterious underworld realm which is known as "Agartha". Saint-Yves d'Alveydre was the man who introduced the concept of "Agartha" to the Western world, "Agartha" ( the myth of "Agartha" is also known as "Shambhala", as it was known in India), the underworld realm peopled by initiates and lead by 'the Masters", Masters who are the Spiritual leaders of humanity....

....Saint-Yves' version of the history of "Agartha" is based upon ' revealed' information, meaning received by Saint-Yves himself through 'attunement'. However, several French 'reliable' sources state that Saint-Yves was NOT a medium. We've seen that Saint-Yves used a medium, a certain Marie Victoire, when he wrote the "Archéomètre" seems that "the sources" disagree with each other when it comes to Saint-Yves' 'gifts'......read more....

http://tinyurl.com/5qhrro
________________________________


More links.....

http://tinyurl.com/5wk3bn

I hope you find this helpful.
 
Thank you, Susanna. The information was very helpful!

Constance
 
I find it disheartening that one has to do their homework when sitting under the teaching of a "Christian" pastor, author, etc. Their spiritual friends and supporters certainly tell a story.

I liked Tim Lahayes "Left Behind Series". Again I will say, "It's disheartening".
 
Susanna... It’s “ski”, not “sky”. My head may be in the clouds half the time, but my feet are more comfortable sliding across the snow.

To anon 10:31

It’s all a matter of perspective isn’t it? I’ve had the pleasure of teaching a couple of blind people how to ski, both nordic and alpine. The first lessons I gave were at night and in the fog. Those blind folks had the advantage on many occasions, and ended up teaching me more than I taught them. They “saw” so much more than I did.

Sorry if I’m off subject, but here’s another story I think you’d appreciate…

Washington Governor Christine Gregoire, in her previous role as State Attorney General, was instrumental in making changes in our state’s guardianship laws, in part due to a case I was involved with. A young black woman who had a developmental disability had been taken advantage of by a professional guardianship agency. She had been faithfully working at a fast food minimum wage job and was managing her own tiny apartment, but by anyone’s standards, had been living well below the poverty line. (Her two worn out cook pots had broken handles, her bed sagged to the floor, her vacuum cleaner didn’t work, etc.) Turns out, unbeknownst to her, she had a rather large trust account, left to her by her deceased father, who had served a lifetime in the US military.

To make a long story short, that (expletive deleted) guardianship agency had (legally) invested the money in mutual funds, making very little of it available for her immediate needs. They were also charging her exorbitant rates for managing the “account”. This woman had no idea she even had a trust account, let alone how much money was in it. I took her out for coffee and explained everything that I had uncovered about this diabolical “scam”. I also explained that I had been in contact with our Attorney General’s office and they were going to prosecute the case as this was just one more example of abuse by this particular agency. I smelled blood in the water, and I dearly wanted someone to be punished. I would have had no problem presiding over the firing squad, or even pulling the trigger myself.

This young lady politely listened to all that I said, and after I finished explaining all the details, she smiled at me, shook her head, and said, “I sure wouldn’t want to be in their shoes when they go to meet the Lord.”

I was stopped in my tracks. My anger at the injustice and my thirst for revenge lay in ruins on the floor.

This blessed woman still works the same job, but she now lives in her own home, sharing it with far too many cats, a shiny set of pots and pans, and a vacuum cleaner that actually works. Though she has also developed MS, her mental health remains far superior to my own.

Yes, people do good work here, as I said before, uncovering evil at almost every turn. But in the end, it’s the Lord who is judge of all.

Coffee anyone?
 
Dear Oldmanoftheski,
Beautifully said.
-SV
 
To oldmanoftheski,

Sorry. :-)
 
OLD MAN OF THE SKI
Your stories are very touching. The research posted here has helped more than one or two people avoid the pitfalls of false thinking that are around us.

The fact is that there are many paths in the Christian and Jewish communities, some of them leading to false thinking. All claim to be the way. They all make their followers happy for a while, It takes a lot of work to separate the false paths from the true ones, not just someone promising to provide a way to think.

You know what gets a person out of false thinking? Good information. That's what we provide here.

Your roller coaster, skiing and handicapped lady stories do seem to center around physical/emotional completion. It may be you think that needs to come before the truth surfaces. However some of us find that completion when we learn something that brings truth to the surface, knowledge that goes beyond an individual telling us what to think.

Dorothy
 
Constance,
if you want to go into debth info on Synarchy, try these here at:
"Synarchist Empire Movement 1-4"
http://pehi.eu/organisations/SME/
(it is the same server of the link Dorothy gave me, (Leclerque and so on...)
farmer
 
M I D D L E E A S T P E A C E P R O C E S S
NEW AGE PERSPECTIVE
"ecopeace" - Barcelona Process - 1995 - This is where I came in

Check this:

http://www.foeme.org/projects.php?ind=57
 
Dorothy 4:43

You want truth? Okay.

You want information? NA related facts? Okay.

That despicable agency that I described above was called “Foundation for the Handicapped”. Has a nice ring to it doesn't it? Although exposed as a front for corruption and greed, they had their defenses ready and the financial resources (other people’s money) available to hire an army of top attorneys. The case was eventually settled out of court. That same agency is still in business today, yet due to all the bad press, had to find a new name.

http://www.laplus.org/index.html

The serpent is still the serpent no matter how many times he changes his spots. That case did, in fact, result in Washington courts taking on a much more active role in monitoring guardianships. But in my opinion, the bad guys will always find the loopholes in our earthly systems of justice. You may be smart as a whip, Dorothy, but evil is brilliant. We are saved by faith, not head cheese, and faith will always involve a certain amount of emotion. Without love, nothing else matters. I learned that fact from a mentally retarded woman.
 
My prayers are with those facing Hurricane Gustav tonight.

Constance
 
Despizdrejected,

I'm posting this for you but also for everyone who is interested. This is a discussion of the signs of the last days, recommended for all:

http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/video/eclipsevideo.html

http://tinyurl.com/655hb8


He actually recommends the book I've been recommended.

Joyce
 
On Sunday I had on the radio and was listening to a show called the Travel Show. A woman was asking about details to visit some country- I don't remember which. But she gave the story about her daughter was in the Sharon Interfaith Youth Fellowship, and this group was in Jordan, and they will go to Utah or Nevada. She and the hosts were glad about the group, since they focus on what the different religiions involved have in common, not the differences. I tried to find it on the net, but instead came accross The Pluralism Project at Harvard. It looks like an interesting site to explore, except not anymore tonight. I should be sleeping by now.
 
typo....that would be "have been recommending".

After watching the video, I just want to add, I'm not saying that I am 100% in agreement with every word he says, but I would say there is enough substance there that it warrants further study. The word "moedim" means "appointed times". Since the set of Spring moedim Pesach, Shavuot( Pentecost) had a fulfillment, it stands to reason that the Fall moedim, will also have their fulfillment.

If this fellow's thesis is right, and I'm suspending judgement for the moment, we are looking at tbe beginning of the Tribulation period in a few weeks i.e. Yom Kippur. There is a flurry of diplomatic activity around the ME again, Russia is intent on arming Iran and Syria.


For me, there is no doubt that the
 
whoops..send that too quickly..

no doubt that the Fall feasts are pointing to the Second coming. I am not ready to say which year, but I know I'll be looking into the Scriptures and studying the subject further. We already participate in the moedim, which are dress rehearsals for His Seconding coming.

It's good to keep our eyes on all the stuff out there, I do it myself, but would also encourage all of you and myself to be looking at the Scriptures even more carefully as the day approaches. That's where our hope and salvation lies. God has treasures for us in His Word that will strengthen and encourage us as the times get more difficult, and while there is certainly apostasy all over the place, Yeshua said there would be, our hope is in His redemption. I agree with the person who mentioned that earlier on this blog. Looking only for the demons creates a spirit of fear( and I'm not encouraging anyone to be blind here) whereas, God has not given us a spirit of fear but of hope, power and sound mind.

If we get that piece right, it will preserve us through all the rest of what takes place, and protect us from error.

Here is one site that gives some simple explanation as to the hebraic roots of the faith:

http://biblicalholidays.com/

I don't call these "Jewish holidays" but rather Biblical holidays since they were given to All Israel, and the aliens who dwelled among them, not only to the Jews ( Southern Kingdom).

If you see yourselves as part of the Olive Tree, then you may want to begin looking at some of the prophetic significance of all this. You won't be disappointed.

Joyce
 
What kind of person takes pleasure in New Orleans being hit by another hurricane?

http://tinyurl.com/5h52fz

Maybe they ought to listen to the testimonies of those who lived the nightmare first hand and explain if they still find it funny.

http://tinyurl.com/6z6bsp
 
Old man of the ski,

What a moving story -- Occasionally in my law practice I've ran across similar abuses -- not to the extent of this blessed woman == she had it right

"I sure wouldn't want to be in their shoes when they face the Lord . . ."

Constance
 
Joyce,

You might want to check out Friends of the Earth - Middle East and the plethora of Middle East Peace Projects taking pace under the aegis of the 1995 Barcelona Process which was reconfirmed and restrengthened by the European Neighbourhood Policy 7 year process which began January 1, 2007.
2010 is the target year for the Mediterranean Free Trade Zone (google search MFTZ) and I will tell you right now that Israel is considered the fly in the ointment on its success which is to mean much monetarily for Europe.

2010 is also the year the European combined militarization is to be in place.

2009 is a target year for beginning global governance -- it is also the year that the New Agers believe their New "Messiah" needs to be in Israel.

I just wouldn't count Herb Peters research and Senor 666 out just yet! Also, it is a distinct possibility that the 7 year period did open on January 1, 2007.

Constance
 
This is an example of Christianity adapting Metaphysical Idealism or Spritualism, that denies matter a.k.a reality. The latest attack is by anti-death penalty advocates and pacificts who attack the cross of Jesus Christ.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/24/god-ogre-comparison-doesnt-fly-interfaith-crowd/

Following the hot topic of abortion, Sister Helen Prejean tackled another: calling for abolition of the death penalty to raucous applause at the DNC's interfaith gathering.

She received nothing but a stony silence, however, when she questioned the basis of the biblical crucifixion story as a "projection of our violent society."

"Is this a God?" Prejeans asked about the belief that God allowed his son, Jesus, to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity. "Or is this an ogre?"

The audience -- to that point in strong agreement with the author of "Dead Man Walking" -- said and did nothing.

Savvy
 
And if we think New Agers are the only ones in the mix. A letter sent by a pro-life Muslim group to Fr. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life says the following:

http://www.embryosusa.org/_disc1/Email%20Correspondence%20with%20Fr%20Pavone.pdf

It is in this regard, and in the fact that I have chosen Jesus Christ (Peace be Upon Him) to be my savior, the element through which God performs his miracles: It is obvious that Jesus Christ (Peace be Upon Him) was never crucified. Crucifiction is a violent method of torture, one that many have suffered throughout the history of mankind. It is not much different than the most violent of abortion methods. In fact, I believe that many of the societal tendencies toward violence today stems from the worship of this torture method. The body of Christ belongs to God Allah, and we all know that it never suffered crucification. I invite you to help people better understand abortion by denouncing crucifiction.

This is a war on Christianity full scale. If Obama is elected will crosses be banned because they're an instrument of torture by these pacificts. Ban crosses and you ban Christianity. There is no Redemption without the cross of Christ.

The Jews who fall for this deception should know that the God who created matter is seen as the God of the Bible, by the NA.

Next thing you know they'll ask Jews to renounce this God.
 
Well, I'm almost speechless. I know J. R. and Linda Church -- was interviewed on their program many times in the 1980s.

I understand he and Stearns had their falling outs in the past. I had my reservations about J.R. "those cryptic psalms. But THE CIRCULAR TIME and TIME TRAVEL is TOO MUCH!

There is a prophecy I well recall of the antichrist: HE SHALL THINK TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS. I'm afraid that our delving into "time travel" could go into this. Whether J.R. and Stearns recognize it or not, they are pushing occultism.

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/

Constance
 
http://66.155.114.80/PC01N.html
 
Joyce,

I just went to the links you suggested, which, coincidentally, what led me to express my new concerns on what J. R. Church is now embracing.

I will tell you right now, I HAVE DEEP THEOLOGICAL CONCERNS ABOUT THE HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT. I CANNOT PRESENTLY ENDORSE IT.

Constance
 
Dear Savvy,

It sounds like Rosemary Ruether and company (and they are hooked up with Matthew Fox -- the defrocked priest, not the actor -- and company) are alive and well and spreading their heresies still!

Constance
 
Constance,

The Devil is trying to convince people that crosses are evil. He can then operate freely in places where crucifixes are taken away. Kind of like Count Dracula.

The Nazi's had crosses removed from churches and replaced them with swastika's

Savvy
 
http://rss.xinhuanet.com/newsc/english/2008-09/01/content_9751965.htm

Solana: EU plans civilian mission in Georgia

excerpt
Solana said he would soon go to Moscow and Tbilisi, capital of Georgia, to see how the EU could help settle the crisis
 
Joyce,

I live in the same town as El Shaddai ministries, and when they made public the eclipse theories, I thought how cool, I might just pay them a visit.

While they are very nice, have lots of great resources, have been very well educated in what they promote, I will tell you my concern. As a non-Jew (gentile) so to speak, they handed me a list of 600+ commandments from the Bible that I should also be keeping.

It took a few months, but I finally was able to explain my nagging feeling about this. As a gentile believer, I am not under the law, but under grace. If I give up grace to subject myself under the law again, Christ died for nothing. I can not keep the law any better than anyone else can. That is why I choose grace as a far improved covenant.

No disrespect to Mark Biltz, they were very nice in his office. There are some aspects of the Hebrew Roots movement that I appreciate, but after further study, I can see how they are falling into the trap of the Galatians.

God Bless,
Leana
 
Paul and Susanna,

Interesting thread about Rastafarianism....
Check out this page I ran across a little while ago. Sometimes, it seems that the author has a solid, Biblical basis of theology and rejects anyone but Christ's divinity and lordship. But, then, he'll make some other comments that make me wonder!

Sorry for the length of the URL. I didn't know if tinyurl would change a .pdf file.

http://www.dubroom.org/download/pdf/messiandread/messian_dread_itations_0009_new_age.pdf

Jolo0.sa
(aka Jay or Joan)
 
The feast of trumpets begins on the new moon ( first day ) of the seventh month of the lunar year. It is a commandment which is found in the book of Numbers in chapter 29. It doesn't appear in the list of yearly feasts which are listed in Exodus 12 and Leviticus 23 and 25. It came later, and later still came to be known as Rosh Hashana or the "head of the year". Its Babylonian name was "Tishri".
Many Bible believers think that this feast is a foreshadowing of the Rapture of the saints.
It is never known exactly which of two days is the first day of the two day feast because the new moon had to be determined by the witness of two
men from different nearby towns, and the new moon had to be observed on the horizon at sundown. The new moon is the thinnest that the waning moon gets before it begins to wax larger.
It is hard to see on the horizon at sundown and both men had to bring their observation to Jerusalem and tell the High Priest. The difference in the moon from one night to the next is very slight. The point is "no man knows the day or the hour" of the feast of trumpets until it actually happened and was announced from the temple. At that point they were either in day two of the feast or they were in day one of the feast. Obviously they knew the "season".
There were both silver trumpets in the temple and there were rams horns, or shofars. Both are used during the Feast of Trumpets.
Some of the main New Testament references to the Feast of Trumpets can be found in I Cor. 15:52,
Matthew 24:31-51, I Thess. 4:16, and Rev. 4:1-2.
This year it's either September 29th or the 30th, no man knows. If one were in Jerusalem they could hear the trumpets sound.
I'd like to be there.

p
 
jolo0.sa,

I think you may need to do a tiny URL because your link directed me to a kind of index. It shouldn't matter if the site is pdf.

In any case, you can test your new tiny URL before copy-pasting it by clicking onto the "blue clicky" just below your new tiny URL. If it is a viable tiny url, the site you want to link to will come up.
 
Susanna,
9:22

Thanks for the info. I'll try and repost now.

Jolo0.sa (joan)
 
Susanna,

Here's the tiny url for my prior post regarding Rastafarianism.

Thanks again for the posting advice.

http://tinyurl.com/6aysvz

Jolo0.sa
 
Thanks for the link. It came through just fine.

Here are a couple of interesting facts about the Rastafari movement:


"The Rastafari movement (also known as Rastafari, Rastafarianism or simply Rasta) is a monotheistic, Abrahamic, new religious movement that accepts Haile Selassie I, the former Emperor of Ethiopia, as God incarnate, called Jah or Jah Rastafari. He is also seen as part of the Holy Trinity and as the returned messiah promised in the Bible.

Other characteristics of Rastafari include the spiritual use of cannabis, and various Afrocentric social and political aspirations, such as the teachings of Jamaican publicist, organiser, and black separatist Marcus Garvey (also often regarded as a prophet), whose political and cultural vision helped inspire a new world view....
......Most Rastafari believe that Selassie is in some way a reincarnation of Jesus and that the Rastafari are the true Israelites. At the heart of Rastafari is the belief in being one's own 'kingman' or prince (hence they call themselves Rastafari). As Ras Midas sang "When I saw my Daddy with the pick axe and my Mommy with the broom, then I know Rastaman is in exile" (Ras Midas, Rastaman in Exile, 1980). Rastas say they have been conditioned into slavery, but convert this into a belief in their own divine potential, believing that as Selassie I dwells within them, they also are worthy kings and princes...read more....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari

As you can see, as much as that article purports to warn people about the New Age Movement, the Rastafari movement itself has elements that can be called "gnostic" or "New Age." Such as the belief that Selassie is a reincarnation of Christ and the use of marijuana (cannabis) to produce altered states of consciousness.

MESSIAN DREAD

http://tinyurl.com/6j5npg
 
Constance,

First off, I want to say that the Hebrew Roots movement is far from unified, so I wouldn't endorse the whole movement either. There is much I don't like going on in it. Secondly, I am not recommending Mark Blitz of El Shaddai ministries, however I do absolutely believe there is validity in seeing the Spring and Fall feasts respectively as past and future fulfillment of the First and Second comings of Yeshua. Yeshua was crucified on the Passover...He's the sinless one ( bread without leaven, and the first fruits of the resurrection). That should be easy for all to see.

As for Mark's analysis of the Fall Feasts, based on solar and lunar eclipses, I would have to investigate that for myself. There is no doubt that the Bible says the sun will darken and the moon turn to blood on the day of the Lord. ( Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20) so there will be astronomical events associated with the second coming. The Biblical calendar is tied to the sun and moon, and the mo'edim are all about Yeshua. The day of the Lord, by the way is the same as the "Lord's day" in the book of Revelations.

Here's a passage about Sukkot ( Feast of Tabernacles or the feast of ingathering).

Lev. 23:41 ‘You shall thus celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

The word for perpetual in the Hebrew is "olam" which means "forever". Now, when I see "forever in the Bible, it means one thing to me...Funny thing is we will celebrate this when Yeshua comes too.

Some think the expression"the Lord's Day" refers to Sunday, but there is no Biblical justification for this whatsoever. It is more likely, the same expression as "the Day of the Lord".

As for the EU playing a big role in endtimes prophecy, I have no doubt, just as will Russia, Iran, US, China, and of course Israel. If I were looking to set dates, which I'm not, I would probably look to God's calendar since these are the times He says He will "meet with us". That's not to say that the EU plans will not overlap with God's calendar. My tendency would be to examine events in light of the Word of God first to see how political events conform to God's Word, including His appointments( moedim).

As for the Hebrew roots of our faith ( not the whole movement) I would remind you of what the apostle Paul said in speaking about the wild v.s. natural branches.

Rom. 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

The olive tree they are being grafted back into is their own and the roots of it are hebraic. By the way, a Hebrew is simply "one who crosses over" like Abraham did. Abraham left the pagan world of Babylon that he lived in to follow Eloihim.

I find it interesting that many are comfortable discussing the Catholic Church or the Greek Orthodox, but when we talk about Hebrew roots, which is what ALL of the writers of the Bible were with the possible exception of Luke, who would have been a god-fearer that it makes people uncomfortable.

Do you think that Jews need to know their Messiah? If so, do you believe they need to "convert" and become "Christians" or is it okay for them to just stay Jews and recognize the long-awaited Mashiach?

My position is that Jews can stay Jews and know Yeshua...in fact this is how it was in the First Century. Read this passage carefully, about Paul's confrontation with his Jewish brothers and their position on Torah:

Acts 21:20-24 And when they heard it they began aglorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many 1thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all bzealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are ateaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to cthe customs. “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. “Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take them and apurify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Paul even did an animal sacrifice..which is what the rites of purification involves...Was he being a liar or a hypocrite? I think not. Paul was showing that he too, was still zealous for Torah. Let's examine one more statement from Paul before his death:

Acts 28:17 ¶ After three days 1Paul called together those who were athe leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “bBrethren, cthough I had done nothing against our people or dthe customs of our 2fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Sounds like Paul not only didn't break Torah, but not even the oral Torah. Do we have this understanding of Paul?

Matt. 5:17-19“Do not think that I came to abolish the aLaw or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.“For truly I say to you, auntil heaven and earth pass away, not 1the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law (Torah)until all is accomplished. “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches 1others to do the same, shall be called least ain the kingdom of heaven; but whoever 2keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The word "fulfill" here or pleroo in the Greek, means to fill up to the full measure, until it's overflowing. It has a sense in which it means "to establish". Yeshua did not do away with Torah, He obeyed it perfectly and He is our example to follow.

Leanna,
As for the expression "under the law" the meaning is under "the penalty of death" that the Torah imposes. The word "law" to translate Torah is not adequate. Torah is like a target that we aim for, it's God's loving instructions to us and can be in a sense Law. Sin is missing the mark. The root word of Torah is "yarah" in the Hebrew which is like a target we aim for. We all miss the mark, but are never justified by "keeping the Torah".

Listen to what Paul says about "lawlessness" or "torahlessness"

2Th. 2:3 aLet no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the 1bapostasy comes first, and the cman of lawlessness is revealed, the dson of destruction,

Why are we all so offended about the homosexual marriage business? I submit to you because deep in our hearts we know that it violates God's holy instructions from Torah which don't save us, but are for our good and our protection.

Here are the words of Yeshua:

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; aDEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt. 13:41 “aThe Son of Man bwill send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom 1all cstumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

It doesn't sound to me like Yeshua was canceling Torah. Hellenistic thought which came in, in the 2nd Century and continued brought in Greek thinking and interpretation of Paul. Paul loved Torah, although he knew that only the blood of Yeshua could save us. Once we are saved should we continue sinning? Heaven forbid..

What both of you may not see here is what God is doing at this moment in history as Jews are coming to faith in their Messiah. They are bringing back a perspective that has been cut out for about 1900 years. I won't try to convince you with intellectual arguments, although I have already given plenty. It's a question of being able to see with spriitual eyes, what God is doing:

I won't paste it all, but read Romans 11 carefully, and when you see the world "gentile" in your translations, know that the correct word for "ethnos" is "nations". Israel ( the Northern Kingdom) literally became the "fulness of the nations" Northern Kingdom of Israel became exactly like the nations and were mixed with the nations.

...but look at what Scripture says about the "natural branches" :

Rom. 11:15 For if their rejection is the areconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but blife from the dead?

That means literally resurrection.

We may be witnessing the beginning of events leading to the resurrection in terms of the physical descendants of Jacob. If we miss this prophetic event we may not "see" all of what God is doing. God is not just working in the EU. He's working all over our planet bringing to pass His redemption plan. I'll repeat, we need to keep our eyes on Scripture and ask Him to reveal to us what He is doing in these days. It's all there, but sometimes "systematic theology" can actually hinder us from hearing what the Word says. When we impose our system over the text, we don't allow the text to simply say what it says and we drown it out with our theology.

During the time of Copernicus the scientists did this with facts that contradicted their theory that the earth was flat. Read Daniel Gruber's book..."Copernicus and the Jews".....We can do this too.

Joyce
 
It is good that we can freely come here and add our thoughts to the pallet. There are many ways that freedom of speech is coming under attack. I would direct you attention to Freedom of speech act of 2008; I wonder why it is supported heavily by Republicans and not that other party!

http://www.theunionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Clifford+D.+May%3A+Islamists+attacking+freedom+of+speech&articleId=f9dc5e22-bb99-4c2f-a05a-4509b43bf140

http://tinyurl.com/5uvae4
 
p.s. I looked back and found that I had not edited my previous comment, which was written when I was tired, so forgive the repetition of certain Scripture..
Joyce
 
The day of the Lord, by the way is the same as the "Lord's day" in the book of Revelations... Some think the expression"the Lord's Day" refers to Sunday, but there is no Biblical justification for this whatsoever. It is more likely, the same expression as "the Day of the Lord"

Not so. The phrase "the Lord's day" is found in Revelation 1:10--
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

There is nothing in the context there to indicate anything but a day of the week, and certainly John did not think the Day of the Lord had already begun when the Revelation was given. And the first century believers did put some significance on "the first day of the week"---

John 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

John 20:19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.


Now, when I see "forever in the Bible, it means one thing to me

The command to keep this "forever" was made between God and Israel, never between God and the NT believers, and certainly not between God and Gentiles.

As for the Hebrew roots of our faith ( not the whole movement) I would remind you of what the apostle Paul said in speaking about the wild v.s. natural branches.

We've been over this in the previous thread. Also, please re-read Hebrews for how the old Law/Priesthood was superseded by the new, and Galatians (esp. ch. 3) for Paul's impassioned pleas for people not to be dragged back into the Law and "special days and months and years" (4:10). Ga. 2:16 says "know that a person is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified."

My position is that Jews can stay Jews and know Yeshua

To any who would take this to mean a Jew does not need the Gospel, please read this. What was Peter doing on Pentecost, but preaching to the Jews that they had to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah? What did Paul lament about "his own countrymen" needing to be saved, and that he would give up his own salvation for them if he could? Jews must be saved like everyone else; the Law could never save anyone but only expose their sin (Romans 3:20-- Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.).

But assuming you mean a Jew that accepts Jesus as Messiah must still observe the old Law, then please tell me how that's even possible without a Temple, without Levitical priests, without animal sacrifices? Aren't all those things required, and "forever"? All of that existed in Paul's day, but even then, the writer of Hebrews said "By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." (8:13)

What Paul did was during the transitional period between the old and the new, between law and grace, and fits with his explicit statement in 1 Cor. 9:21-23-- "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.".

And what does it mean to "fulfill" a law? If I am under a contract and I fulfill it, is it still remaining in force? Am I still required to perform it? No; fulfillment means being finished with it. Jesus did not break the covenant by simply dismissing it, but by meeting all the requirements. Here is the take on this by Glenn Miller of ChristianThinktank:

“Do not think that I have come to dismantle the superstructure of promises and predictions recorded in the writings of Moses and the Prophets— leaving them unfulfilled. On the contrary, I have come to fulfill every single prophecy therein. In fact, let me repeat this for emphasis: No matter how long it takes - even to the end of the universe - no prediction in the Old Testament, great or small, will fail to occur. Period.” (source: http://tinyurl.com/6ejwov)

There are many excellent articles there; highly recommended site.

Once we are saved should we continue sinning? Heaven forbid..

Of course we must not continue sinning. But it is *not* sin to stop observing that which Jesus and Paul taught was already fulfilled and thus obsolete. Since Jesus already fulfilled the Law, there is no need for anyone else to do so. It is only by virtue of being "in" Jesus that we fulfill the Law, not by outward works or performances.

What both of you may not see here... It's a question of being able to see with spriitual eyes...

Condescending. Perhaps you "may not see" some things as well.

when you see the world "gentile" in your translations, know that the correct word for "ethnos" is "nations". Israel ( the Northern Kingdom) literally became the "fulness of the nations"

This is a huge stretch to fit a preconceived conclusion. "The nations", when we check all instances of context, clearly refers to "non-Jews", that is, Gentiles. There is no clear reference to the divided kingdom in all the NT. "Ethnos" is where we get the word "ethnic", and whether you consider Judah or Israel, they are full-blooded Jews and thus one "ethnos".

It's all there, but sometimes "systematic theology" can actually hinder us from hearing what the Word says.

Again, a condescending remark about people who don't eat, drink, and sleep "Hebrew roots". It is only a hindrance if we try to wedge a preconceived conclusion into every nook and cranny. And comparing sys. theo. to boneheaded scientists of centuries past is just another logical fallacy. There is no connection between the two at all.

Thankfully for you, this will be my final and only statement about "Hebrew roots" here, since it would seem that the scriptures I quote are simply being ignored. You may take up the burden of the Law if you choose, but it's hardly a step forward. In fact, it is the very step back into legalistic Judaism that Paul spent so much effort combating. The attempt to mix old and new is exactly what Heb. 6 is all about as well, and what Jesus talked about in the parable of the wineskins.

Grace is freedom from the old law: "Romans 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."

I was never a Jew, therefore I was never in a covenant relationship with God as a lost Gentile. It was only when I accepted that Jesus is God in the flesh who died for my sin and rose again, in whom is my trust alone, that I entered into any relationship with God. As a Gentile I am under no obligation to the laws of Moses, but even a Jew or Israeli today is under no such obligation, since there is no Temple and no Levitical priesthood.

The only law instituted for the NT believers is "the law of love". "Love does no harm to its neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Rom. 13:10)
 
Regarding the Rastafarian items:

I believe the author of this may be the same person who read the Dutch edition of my book a few years ago and felt called to reach his fellow Rastafarians with the "Hidden Dangers" of the New Age rainbow too many of them were sharing. He was a musician well known in that community. I had heard back in the early 1980s when I was first researching the NAM that Haille Selassie, the emperor of Ethiopia had cried when he heard people had proclaimed him God and told them specifically NO. It is the Squeakboxes of this world who are helping to perpetuate the very lie that Haille Selassie himself denounced. This is the same Squeakbox who consistently tampers with the biographies of Javier Solana so as to blur Solana's strong occult family connections. "Squeakbox" (Richard Weiss, I believe is his real name) has said on the Wikipedia website that his greatest accomplishments were (1) Proving Haille Selassie was God and (2) Javier Solana was not the devil.

Now is Javier Solana wants to prove Squeakbox right on the second count, let him personally come out and give us the facts on his true parentage.

Constance
 
I'm fairly certain that "squeakbox" (Richard Weiss) is the true author of the Wikipedia Rastafarian article.

Constance
 
RE HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT - JOYCE, PAUL, WHOEVER:


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE” (Galatians 5:1-4).

LAST WORD FROM THE APOSTLE PAUL WHO DOES NOT LIKE TO BE TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT . . . ! ! !
 
Constance said:
Regarding the Rastafarian items:

"I believe the author of this may be the same person who read the Dutch edition of my book a few years ago and felt called to reach his fellow Rastafarians with the "Hidden Dangers" of the New Age rainbow too many of them were sharing. He was a musician well known in that community."

The late Bob Marley? Or a different musician?

Just curious.
 
Ok, one more little thing: a link to a decent article on the Hebrew Roots movement:

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/4_1/jewishroots
 
Regarding the disagreements here, although I am by no means a bible scholar by any stretch of the imagination, I'd just like to add my simple 2 cents.


When I was in my twenties, I was given my first miracle from God. It was exactly what I needed at the time because my faith was weak and accompanied by constantly questioning why God did this or that, or whether people will be saved if they've never come to know Jesus through no fault of their own. One night God gave me a miracle, and my faith has been strong ever since. He did NOT give me an answer to my question, instead he gave me something infinitely better- a miracle that told me God was in control and I didn't need to worry about it. Here's the story, and I hope it might stop some of the constant arguments that go back and forth here over things that frankly only God has the answers to, no matter how learned in the bible one may be. If we pray, God will help us get through our perplexing questions, not necessarily by answering them, but by building our faith. Here's the story, and I relate it in the hopes it will build someone's faith today.

My 3 sons were tiny, and although I was young, I felt extremely tired as I turned on the late night news after I had put them to bed.

The news showed a scene in a hospital, where 2 babies had been born a few days before. It showed the babies in their incubator, a pair of Siamese twins that were joined at the heart. They were facing each other (obviously), tiny thumbs in their mouths as they slept peacefully. They were beautiful and their tiny arms were wrapped around each other as though they were inseparable best friends. (Pun not intended.)

The news explained that the parents and doctors had a hideous decision to make. They needed to sacrifice one of the twins in order for the other to survive, because they shared only one heart. The twins' appearance seemed equal in every single way, so the choice must have been gut-wrenching for the parents.

I started sobbing, and then increasingly became hysterical as I absorbed the tragic news, feeling almost guilty in knowing that my own sweet babies were safe and sleeping peacefully upstairs in their beds.

I felt incredible pain and confusion as to why a good God would allow something horrible like this to happen to these poor parents, and to these tiny innocent babies.

I began to pray fervently, asking "God, if you really exist, I need your comfort right now."

A quiet voice inside my head told me to go upstairs and get the big Catholic bible that was collecting dust on a bookshelf, that had been a wedding gift a few years earlier, and was the first bible I'd ever owned.

Although I had been raised a Catholic, I'd never really studied or even read the Bible. All I was familiar with was the Catholic catechism, which I had been forced to study throughout my parochial school days in lieu of the Bible. But I obeyed the voice in my head and minutes later I sat in a chair holding the heavy bible.

I closed my eyes and kept praying, not knowing what else to do, and soon I felt compelled to open the book. The page fell open to the table of contents. I know this next part will sound a little silly, but here goes.

With my eyes shut, I just allowed my finger to fall onto the page haphazardly. It fell right smack on the word ‘Ephesians’. Once again, I need to say that the only books of the Bible that I was even remotely familiar with were the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I had honestly never even heard of the book of Ephesians.

I closed my eyes, and as I continued to pray I suddenly saw the impression of a very large number 2 in my mind's eye.

I waited quietly and after a few seconds I saw another number-this one much smaller than the first number had been. It was the number 14.

It took a few more seconds before I realized that God was telling me to open to the book of Ephesians, second chapter, and 14th verse. And that is what I did.

Seconds later, I couldn't believe what I was reading as my tears spilled across the page.

"It is He who is our peace, and who made the two of us one by breaking down the barrier of hostility that kept us apart. In his own flesh he abolished the law with its commands and precepts, to create in himself one new man from us who had been two and to make peace, reconciling both of us to God in one body through his cross, which put that enmity to death."

I had no idea that the book of Ephesians existed, let alone ever having read this verse or knowing of its existence!

In truth, I wasn't even particularly religious at the time, and only attended mass at Christmas and Easter, as many other average Catholics will also probably admit.

But I knew that for me to have been led to this particular verse of all verses was nothing short of a miracle! I didn't really understand what the verse meant, but it hardly mattered, for I knew that no where else in the world would I have been able to put my hands on words that were so befitting of that particular circumstance.

Suddenly it dawned on me that there was a much greater power than I could ever understand controlling the universe, and who had already worked everything out with divine precision. God knew I was in deep anguish because I am a very sensitive person. He knew I needed comfort and He knew that strengthening my faith would afford me comfort. He used that Bible verse and that moment in time to strengthen my very feeble faith and place me on a path of trust with Him in the lead. I realized that God works things out for the ultimate good of His childrens’ souls, although there are times that it seems hard to believe that, especially when we are in the midst of trial and turmoil.

So I have related this simple story of my first miracle, so that some people here might realize that none of us truly have the perfectly right or wrong answers.

Only God has those.

One last foot note to this story. Years later I told this story in my blog (since discontinued), and I was contacted by someone of the Jewish faith who read the blog post who informed me that the couple that had had to go through that tortuous decision were orthodox Jews who had high standing in their community. The husband may have even been a Rabbi, but I forget. This happened to a couple in New Jersey in the late 1970's, so maybe someone else has more info than I. Evidently the laws made this decision even more complicated in view of their faith.

I'd love to have been able to communicate with them and tell them the story of my little miracle that night, but the press never released their names.

Shalom,
Maryanne
 
I came across an article discussing the possibilty of Obama being Matreiya.

http://www.chronwatch-america.com/articles/3241/1/Obama-the-World-Teacher/Page1.html

It says:

If Obama is not Maitreya, then he and Maitreya have the same speechwriters. But there’s no way Obama intuitively flabbergasts all those spiritually attuned people in San Francisco without being the World Teacher.

Aside from the undeniable fact that anyone who votes against him has got to be a racist, and so shouldn’t be allowed to vote at all, it’s, like, karma that Barack Obama be the president. We need the World Teacher in the White House!

...................................
Savvy
 
From www.spiritdaily.com (9/2/08):

The past week has seen a string of strange coincidences that may need discernment. Perhaps "unraveling" is a better word. There was the Democratic National Convention. Hillary Clinton spoke on the anniversary of the woman's right to vote, and Barack Obama -- the first black presidential nominee -- on the anniversary of Martin Luther King's "I Have A Dream" speech. At the same time, within days, there was the threat of another New Orleans hurricane disaster, one that thank God was averted (no doubt through prayer). While most of us who watch "signs of the times" are on the conservative side of the aisle (due to abortion issues), it was curious how the biggest effect of the storm was not on the Big Easy but on Republican politics: The first day of the GOP convention was basically erased, and President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney were forced to abandon plans to address the convention in one last hurrah. This was curious to some because the hurricane -- "Gustav," which means "staff of the Goths" -- arrived smack on another anniversary: that of Hurricane Katrina, which all but destroyed New Orleans and led to sharp criticism of the White House. This timing, whatever it means, has been seized upon, at times in an unfortunate way, by liberals. Meanwhile, it also came on what was supposed to be "Decadence Weekend" in New Orleans -- an annual celebration of homosexuality there in the French Quarter, where risqué sex, paganism, and voodoo are as strong a presence as ever -- as even before "Katrina," which means "to purify." The Goths were the most violent kind of pagans. Now there is "Hanna," which from its masculine derivative means "Yahweh is gracious." An interesting effect of the storm: if nothing else, the evacuation brought New Orleans back to a few minutes of clarity (and hopefully reflection). Noted a reporter for the BBC of the eerie quiet before the hurricane: "Sounds you rarely hear in American cities, like the bells of small chapels chiming the quarter hours, or the fabric of flags snapping in the quickening air, were suddenly clear."
 
Hi constance,

Thanks for that clarification on the "Squeakbox" Rastafarian spin. Here is another site that corroborates this:

http://tinyurl.com/68ugw2

Rastafarianism itself, however, is not necessarily the same as the "Orthodox" (actually Coptic) Christianity that Haille Selassie is said to have represented. According to the following article (non-Wikipedia):

"Ethiopian Christianity represents that branch of the church that parted company with Western Christianity and the Eastern Orthodox church over the interpretation of the nature of Jesus Christ. The Eastern and Western church hold that Jesus was both human and divine. The Coptic church and the Ethiopian church believe that Jesus had only a divine nature."

http://tinyurl.com/6z2gd7

See also:

451: A large group of the Egyptian Christians do not accept the decrees of Chalcedon this year. Their contention was that Jesus did not have two natures, but one divine nature which manifested itself in the flesh (monophysis). What resulted was the Monophysite (one nature) party, and it was this group that developed into the church now known as Coptic.

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/coptic_c.htm

Ergo, the Christology of the Coptic Church is not the same as that of Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox and most mainstream Protestant communions who accept the Chalcedonian and/or Nicene Creeds.

As for Haille Selassie, this would certainly appear to exonerate him in terms of his own Christological beliefs that Jesus Christ had a divine nature only and not a human one.

Perhaps this is partly where the confusion comes in - a confusion that "Squeakbox" may be trying to exploit.

http://www.cmn.co.za/html/faq/rasta.htm
 
Dear Young Grasshopper

To the best of my knowledge, it was definitely not Bob Marley, but it was somebody who knew Marley very well. If I recall correctly, he had used the name Messianen, but I'm now not 100% certain. I had not thought of it in a long time.

Constance
 
Dear Constance

Have you ever linked the dangerous dominionist C Peter Wagner of the New Apostolic Refornation in with anybody you know. I know the links with Rick Warren and Robert Schuller that in turn tie to many others. But how about Rev Moon? Or other overt New Agers.

These guys have really stepped up a gear this year.

Thank you
Miriam

http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com
 
Interesting story, Maryanne.
 
Anyone who's interested--

Please look at these two URLs. One is a Christian site, the other, a site for Jews (and Christians)who believe the Y'oshua is the Messiah.

This is one the site of the Southwest Radio Church. I've been listening to it for years, when it originated out of Oklahoma City, OK. Check out the titles of the books available--very current!
http://tinyurl.com/6rgops

There is no need for a tiny.url on this one, as it's short:
www.levitt.com.

It's the webpage of Zola Levitt Ministries, which I stumbled upon when doing a search for more understanding of the Jewish roots of my faith. They've been sending me a monthly newsletter for about a year, now. I look forward to them eagerly and can't wait to share them with my church.

Jolo0.sa
 
Young Grasshopper,

I sent a link to a .pdf file on "Rastas" at 9:36 PM. The author of the file was named Messian Dread.

Perhaps that was the last name of the person Constance said was a well-known musician and had the same first name.

Doing a search on his name revealed this interview:

http://tinyurl.com/6j5npg
Take a look at what he says when he's asked "are you a Christian?"
 
Setterman,

Thanks for your comments on my section on Communitarianism.
I didn't mean that that particular topic wasn't covered here--just that my thread was not related to many other prior threads above (up and down scrolling) it.

As to the geo-political and sociologigal points you addressed--I concur. Having grown up with a penchant for history (and a father who studied German and economics), these topics have always fascinated me. I'm doing some more research and would like to take the time to respond to you in depth. So, give me a couple of days!

Jolo0.sa (Joan)
 
Hello! This is the first time I've posted. Been lurking for the past couple of months, shortly after I watched Ms. Cumbey's Discovering the New Age video. Wow! I was so excited to find this blog and the discussions here. Anyway, here's something going on in my neck of the woods.
"Some fret about Iowa 'trance’ festival"
http://tinyurl.com/5a2hcg
Excerpt:
"Rodriguez, Stark and others describe the music played as mind-opening and 'spiritual,' not necessarily Christian."
 
Constance, now I’m really glad I never was drawn to Tim LaHaye – nor any of his “Left Behind” books. Pat Robertson on the other hand and his work with “operation blessing” pulls on my heartstrings. Back then my husband and I would help with the numerous follow-up calls 700 club received in our area we would visit them and try to be of assistance. I also listened to more than my share of radio broadcasts from JR Church. Pray we ALL keep our eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

In the wake of the Republican Convention and Hurricane Gustov I just so happened to come across these two articles that seemed timely in regards to these events.

I would venture to say that oldski will find the one re: the Zeus Temple of Pergamum interesting and may even give us some coordinates:)

#1. Article given by a blogger El Gallo from FP (I came across this one around the time Hurricane Gustov hit land). Scroll up to the top of the page & then begin reading.

“Go to http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1439#comments
It will blow your mind, or scare the heck out of you. Obama's "temple" for his acceptance speech is a model of the Zeus Temple from Pergamum, identifed as what Jesus meant by "The throne of Satan."

Then #2.
“Last Trumpet Newsletter August 2008” here’s the quote that resonated in my mind.

“He [Obama] is being presented with a two-foot gold-plated image of the Hindu god Hanuman. This is the monkey deity in India, and an hour-long prayer meeting to sanctify the idol was held at Sankat Mochan Dham by temple priests. Obama accepted the idol and extended his thanks. It was said that the idol will bring him luck from the GOD OF THE WIND [interesting]. Brijmohan Bhama, a congressional leader in India, said, “Obama has deep faith in Lord Hanuman and that is why we are presenting an idol of Hanuman to him.
Ordinarily, an American presidential candidate campaigns in America. Why is Barack Hussein Obama going to Germany to meet with German Chancellor Angela Merkel? Why is Obama planning to make a speech at the Brandenburg Gate? This is the area near to where the Berlin Wall once stood, and it is the best-known and most historically significant site in all of Germany, according to a chancellery official. (26)”

“http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/2008/August2008.html

Off subject, had anyone noticed the strange glow in the sky at sunset several days ago – it was an unusual light, almost florescent (unnatural)? Mid-West.

Shalom &
God (Jehovah= the proper name of the one true God) Bless,
Barb

Welcome History Maker!
 
Despizdrejected,

Your proof texts trying to say that "the Lord's Day" was Sunday, does not make the connection and their are some fairly complex context and translation issues concerning "the first day of the week" that time or space doesn't permit me to get into. Scripture NEVER, EVER says that the 4th commandment was done away with. Is Yeshua our Sabbath rest, absolutely? Does it mean Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath" or Sabbath has been done away with? NO! Eternal is Eternal and God doesn't have 2 distinct plans, one for Israel and one for a Church. He has make us ONE NEW MAN in Yeshua ( Ephesians 2) In this passage we see Paul observing the Sabbath:

Acts 16:13 And on athe Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled.

The Jerusalem Council was convened to make a decision about what the new believers from the nations had to do initially to be in fellowhip.. Here's what they decided ( Yacov, Yeshua's brother)


Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from 1athings contaminated by idols and from bfornication and from cwhat is strangled and from blood.
Acts 15:21 “For aMoses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since 1he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

I will point your attention to the verse that says for Moses is preached every Sabbath in synagogues. The new believers were to go to the synagogues ( where the Torah scrolls were...the only available Scriptures, along with the writings and prophets, at that time) and hear Moses. I wonder why Yacov, the head of the Jerusalem assembly, would add this?

The Book of Galatians is a very complex subject, again which requires more space than I'll take here, but it is important to note that the Judiazers are not simply "Torah observant Jews" as many think. It's possible that they are a group with pro-gnostic beliefs and are associated with Jewish mysticism.

Another important point which is in discussion by theologians today is the meaning of the expression "works of law". This expression is thought by some to mean "sectarian works permitting one to gain entry to a particular Jewish community". It does not mean "biblical Torah observance".

One thing is for sure, is that we are not justified by observing Torah, but by the blood of Yeshua which is poured out for us, so there is no argument about this. In the context of Second Temple Judaism, where there were numerous Jewish sects, all holding to slightly different practices and beliefs, some who had incorporated mysticism and gnosticism, there was not a "unified Torah community". The epistles were letters to particular groups dealing with specific problems and when we don't understand the context fully, we can get into trouble.

To assume that Paul was criticizing Torah observance among believers we would mean that we would have to cancel the verse that occurred after Galatians was written which says this:

( sorry this is a long one, but necessary to make the point)

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began aglorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many 1thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all bzealous for the Law;
Acts 21:21 and they have been told about you, that you are ateaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them bnot to circumcise their children nor to 1walk according to cthe customs.
Acts 21:22 “What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Acts 21:23 “Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who 1aare under a vow;
Acts 21:24 take them and apurify yourself along with them, and 1pay their expenses so that they may bshave their 2heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
Acts 21:25 “But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, ahaving decided that they should abstain from 1meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”
Acts 21:26 Then Paul 1took the men, and the next day, apurifying himself along with them, bwent into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

It would not make sense that Paul is criticizing the Galatians for SIMPLY keeping Torah, and then when criticized for teaching against it at a later date, he would go and PROVE that he does keep Torah. The rites of purification is from Torah. If this is true, then we must ask the question, what was Paul criticizing in the Galatians? He was criticizing, their wanting to include people in the faith community by making them get circumcised. i.e. be justified by circumcision. Abraham was justified before he was ever circumcised. It was by faith, just as the new believers were justified by faith. You have to follow the sequence of events of Paul's missionary journey's to really see what's going on here. Galatians is before Acts 15, so the Jerusalem Council said that the new believers would do certain things up front, i.e. not eat meat sacrificed to idols, blood, things strangled and abstain from sexual immorality. ( basically kosher dietary and sexual purity laws, which someone from a pagan culture, not raised with Torah would need to learn)
because then "THEY WOULD GO TO THE SYNAGOGUE ON SHABBAT AND HEAR MOSES".

One more important point about careful reading of a text...Do you think that the Torah which God gave to Moses would be considered in God's eyes a "weak and elemental, worthless thing"

Listen to the text and think about how Torah was given at Mt. Sinai:

Gal. 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be aknown by God, bhow is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless 1celemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
Gal. 4:10 You aobserve days and months and seasons and years.

This should really cause you to ask the question, what was Paul talking about when he was referring to "weak and worthless elemental things"

People do the same thing with the verses in Colossians 2, which is talking about asceticism:

Col. 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the 1appearance of wisdom in aself-made religion and self-abasement and bsevere treatment of the body, but are of no value against cfleshly indulgence.

Is Paul talking about Torah here? Heavens no!! Paul said that he NEVER did anything against the customs of his fathers...

Acts 28:17 ¶ After three days 1Paul called together those who were athe leading men of the Jews, and when they came together, he began saying to them, “bBrethren, cthough I had done nothing against our people or dthe customs of our 2fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.


If Paul NEVER did anything against the customs of the fathers, then why would he be angry with others who did? The problem is not holding to Torah. The problem is if one thinks they can be justified or added to the community by keep Torah. Only the shed blood of Yeshua can justify us, after it is up to us to lead sanctified lives. The only way we can know what sin is ( missing the mark) is by reading the Torah and letting God's Spirit put it on our hearts.

With the discovery of many manuscripts and better communication between Jewish and Christian scholars, there is greater understanding today of what the Scriptures actually meant. A lot of bad interpretation has been carried forward and people take this as the gospel. The problem isn't with the text of Scripture, but what we do with it. By not seeing the unity of the Scripture and believing what is passed down, people miss a lot.

If you don't see yourself as attaching to Israel, my question to you is how to you intend to come into the New Jerusalem whose gates have the names of the 12 tribes written on it. There is no "church gate"

Rev. 21:12 1It had a great and high wall, with twelve bgates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
 
Maryanne,
Thanks for sharing that. It's a very powerful story.
Joyce


Despizdrejected,

A couple of more small points that I didn't address...although I might not address all, for the sake of space. Yes, I do believe Jews need to know their Jewish Messiah, Yeshua. I don't believe the Jews are "all Israel" since the 10 tribes in the Assyrian exile were never Jews and subsequently became as Gentiles...see the whole book of Hosea for further explanation.

I don't believe follow Torah, which is not well explained by the word "law" is done away with, but rather the "death penalty" it imposes...In Messiah Yeshua, because of our new identity, it should be written on our hearts, instead of on tablets of stone. I believe that Yeshua is the Word who became flesh i.e. the Living Torah and showed us how to live it out correctly. The two commandments that are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself are in the Torah. That's not NEW information. What is new is that the veil that separates us from the holy of holies is ripped and we have access to the heavenly throne in Yeshua. WE have no need for the Cohen HaGadol, because Yeshua's death gives us access once and for all.

The spiritual transaction that took place when Yeshua paid for our sins, allows us to enter into the presence of God cleansed. In the Torah, the high priest could only go once a year and the blood of bulls and goats could not cleanse sin for all time, whereas the spotless Lamb Yeshua's blood cleansed us from our sin once and for all. Having been redeemed ( brought out of Egypt) now He teaches us how to lead sanctified lives. Hearing God's voice and listening to His Word ( all of it) does not justify us, but it is a question of working out our salvation "with fear and trembling". God is holy, and we are not. When we want to walk in His holiness, we still need a teaching. I don't know about you, but without the Word of God, I would forget how Holy He is. Obeying His Commands is just "listening to His voice". The relationship is already there, and now we want to maintain it.

If someone is married and then they cheat on their husband, they may have a covenant but it is no longer being maintained. It is not just because Yeshua saved us by grace that we can then go and disobey all that God said is holy. He teaches us how to walk in relationship with Him......if we will hear His voice.

Joyce
 
Joyce,

I did not want to keep this going, but the conclusions you jump to have to be addressed. I will do so as briefly as possible. But understand that "Hebrew roots" do not make or break one's understanding of prophecy; the important thing is what scripture actually says, in context, and that must include Greek thought whether you wish it to be so or not.

You say, "Scripture NEVER, EVER says that the 4th commandment was done away with. Is Yeshua our Sabbath rest, absolutely? Does it mean Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath" or Sabbath has been done away with? NO!

This is a straw man; I NEVER mentioned worship days. I simply stated that people in the first century did **in some way** put some significance on the first day of the week. The NT does not specify a day of worship; read Rom. 14. Jesus said "The time is now here when we will worship God neither on this mountain or in Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth."

You said,"God doesn't have 2 distinct plans".

You can believe that if you want; I strongly disagree and gave scriptures to back up my view. And you keep changing your mind: are the two groups Jews and Gentiles ( "He has make us ONE NEW MAN in Yeshua") or the two houses of Israel? It seems to change on a whim.

You said, "The Book of Galatians is a very complex subject, again which requires more space than I'll take here, but it is important to note that the Judiazers are not simply "Torah observant Jews" as many think. It's possible that they are a group with pro-gnostic beliefs and are associated with Jewish mysticism."

Complex? Not at all. It's very clear and pointed: Do not go back to the law! "It is possible" is fine to believe but far from decisive. And you keep appealing to Acts, ***the time of transition***, as normative doctrinal teaching, which it is not. Paul's writings are directly aimed at helping Christian communities grow spiritually, and it is there we find doctrinal teaching. Paul is famous for his continual and strong opposition to going back under the Law.

You said, "Do you think that the Torah which God gave to Moses would be considered in God's eyes a "weak and elemental, worthless thing"

What I think is irrelevant; what the Bible says is what matters. I quoted scripture to you, and it is scripture that calls the old Law "weak and fading away". If you disagree with scripture, that is your right, but don't try and put the words of scripture into my mouth as coming from me.

You have yet to address the clear teaching of Hebrews that with a change of priesthood comes a change of law, and that the law and the promise are two completely separate entities. Paul also stated that "we died to the law", and that Jesus "nailed the ordinances to the cross".

Please, carefully read Hebrews and Romans, without wedging "we are still under Torah" into every possible space. Just read it. In respect to this being Constance's blog and not ours, and the topic being prophecy and not Hebrew Roots, I will not continue to discuss this issue with you, especially since you never address the scriptures I quote.

Constance, my apologies for the "hijacking"; I just have a hard time not speaking up when I see such things.
 
Despizedrejected,

I guess I'll have to answer you too:

You said:
"I did not want to keep this going, but the conclusions you jump to have to be addressed. I will do so as briefly as possible. But understand that "Hebrew roots" do not make or break one's understanding of prophecy; the important thing is what scripture actually says, in context, and that must include Greek thought whether you wish it to be so or not."

ME:
Your statement here is a little confusing. Actually, the writers of the Bible were Hebrews and the Greek they used, according to scholars, is not even a normal Greek...it's a Hebrew Greek. You cannot understand the Apostolic Scriptures without understanding Hebrew idioms, Hebrew thinking and Torah. It would make no sense at all, if you didn't have the foundations.


YOU SAID:
"You say, "Scripture NEVER, EVER says that the 4th commandment was done away with. Is Yeshua our Sabbath rest, absolutely? Does it mean Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath" or Sabbath has been done away with? NO!"

ME:
Yes, I said that and I'll stand by it.


YOU SAID:
"This is a straw man; I NEVER mentioned worship days. I simply stated that people in the first century did **in some way** put some significance on the first day of the week. The NT does not specify a day of worship; read Rom. 14. Jesus said "The time is now here when we will worship God neither on this mountain or in Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth."

ME:
That verse has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but of course we worship God in Spirit and in Truth. By the way, 8 in the Bible speaks of new beginnings, so the first day of the week could be about new beginning, just like when the New Jerusalem comes there will be a "new beginning". It doesn't negate the Shabbat..It has a different significance. This is a Torah concept, not exclusive to the Apostolic Scriptures.


YOU SAID that I said:
:You said,"God doesn't have 2 distinct plans".

ME:
Yes, I said that..


YOU SAID:
"You can believe that if you want; I strongly disagree and gave scriptures to back up my view. And you keep changing your mind: are the two groups Jews and Gentiles ( "He has make us ONE NEW MAN in Yeshua") or the two houses of Israel? It seems to change on a whim."

ME:
No actually, the Northern Kingdom beceame as Gentiles...The Northern Kingdom corporately disappeared. Read Hosea carefully, but there are lots of other verses starting in Genesis that talk about the division and subsequent restoration of the kingdom will full tribal identifications. You can see it in Ezekiel,in Revelations..and many other places.

YOU SAID, that I said:

"You said, "The Book of Galatians is a very complex subject, again which requires more space than I'll take here, but it is important to note that the Judiazers are not simply "Torah observant Jews" as many think. It's possible that they are a group with pro-gnostic beliefs and are associated with Jewish mysticism."


You said:
"Complex? Not at all. It's very clear and pointed: Do not go back to the law! "It is possible" is fine to believe but far from decisive. And you keep appealing to Acts, ***the time of transition***, as normative doctrinal teaching, which it is not. Paul's writings are directly aimed at helping Christian communities grow spiritually, and it is there we find doctrinal teaching. Paul is famous for his continual and strong opposition to going back under the Law."

ME:
If you read some of the scholarly writing on the expression "works of Law" or ergou nomos in Greek, you will discover it is a very particular expression and does not mean Torah, but sectarian observance for inclusion in the community i.e. you can't get into our club unless you are circumcised. No one was ever justified in the Torah or any other time by obeying the Torah ( the teachings...not law). Justification was always by faith ( see Hebrews 11)


ME:
You said, "Do you think that the Torah which God gave to Moses would be considered in God's eyes a "weak and elemental, worthless thing" Think again.
You really might want to go back and reread Genesis to Deuteronomy and see what it says.

You said:
"What I think is irrelevant; what the Bible says is what matters. I quoted scripture to you, and it is scripture that calls the old Law "weak and fading away". If you disagree with scripture, that is your right, but don't try and put the words of scripture into my mouth as coming from me."

ME:
That is not what the Bible says.. Again you have to ask the questions who was Paul writing to? If he was writing to gnostics, mystics, ascetics, it changes the context.. Paul's epistles are just that, letters to a particular group, addressing a particular problem. We have another problem, which is that Paul would be contradicting Yeshua if he said that.. Remember Matt 5:17-19 I DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH THE TORAH....NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE WILL PASS AWAY, etc, etc.

YOU SAID:
"You have yet to address the clear teaching of Hebrews that with a change of priesthood comes a change of law, and that the law and the promise are two completely separate entities. Paul also stated that "we died to the law", and that Jesus "nailed the ordinances to the cross".

ME:
I will repeat, what was nailed to the cross was the death penalty...not God's holy instructions...what do you do with the 10 words...nail them to the cross i.e. disobey them, or do you obey them in newness of life, with the power of the Spirit...?


YOU SAID:
"Please, carefully read Hebrews and Romans, without wedging "we are still under Torah" into every possible space. Just read it. In respect to this being Constance's blog and not ours, and the topic being prophecy and not Hebrew Roots, I will not continue to discuss this issue with you, especially since you never address the scriptures I quote. "

ME:
I really didn't mean to discuss this with you, not that I mind. I was responding to Constance's remark, but you jumped in, so I"m always happy to have a good theological discussion.

If you are interested in studying further, I can refer you to some resources that might help you... Happy to do that.

Joyce
 
Er, uh, Joyce

Ok, given all that, what is your interpretation of the first Church Conference as recorded in Acts 15 with particular attention to this:

5. But there rsoe up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us. And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, TO PUT A YOKE UPON THE NECK OF THE DISCIPLES, WHICH NEITHER OUR FATHERS NOR WE WERE ABLE TO BEAR? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. . . . wherefore my sentence is that WE TROUBLE THEM NOT,WHICH FROM AMONG THE GENTILES ARE TURNED TO GOD: BUT THAT WE WRITE UNTO THEM that they ABSTAIN FROM POLLUJTIONS OF IDOLS, and from FORNICATION, and from things strangled, and from blood."

It seems to this observer that you are plainly seeming to impose burdens back on Gentile believers that were specifically lifted by early church councils, unless, that is you refuse to believe Luke who wrote the Acts of the Apostles!
 
To the poster re. beautiful sunsets in the Midwest:

Although there is currently nothing posted at http://www.spaceweather.com/ , the past several days there were articles re. same. They were attributed to the recent eruption of a volcano in Alaska, which has spewed particulates into the atmosphere, causing spectacular diffraction of lightwaves, etc.

Hope it's helpful.
 
I noticed the gorgeous sunsets as well -- didn't know the cause, other than our Creator's benevolence, but I sure enjoyed them.

Constance
 
To the anonymous poster,
The issue at hand in the Acts 15 council if you read the comment in context is whether the gentile believers, most who were already god-fearers, needed to be circumcised to be included in the community. In Second Temple Judaism, circumcision was an entry point into the community ( see my earlier comments). In order to understand the context, one must go back to Apocryphal books like Maccabees and understand what happened to the Jews under the rule of Antiochus Epiphanes, who tortured the Jews and would not let them circumcise their children.

The question that is being dealt with at the Acts Council is, Is circumcision necessary for inclusion in the community. The ruling states that for initial fellowship the following things are necessary:

Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is amy judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from 1athings contaminated by idols and from bfornication and from cwhat is strangled and from blood.
Acts 15:21 “For aMoses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since 1he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”


Another words, for the new believers coming into the faith to be able to sit down at a table and have fellowship, they would do the following...eat kosher food, stop sexual immorality because they were going to hear Moses preached at the synagogue on the Sabbath and grow in the knowledge of the Torah.

Today, a new believer coming into a congregation would not be expected to know everything up front. We'd have patience with them, but if they were engaged in gross immorality after being saved, we would tell them to stop that behavior...no?

The question at hand here is HOW is one Justified?

That is by faith and faith alone in Yeshua the Messiah. After being justified, we learn to walk with Him according to His Word. He is the Word who became flesh. He is the Living Torah, so when we want to know how to live, we should follow His example.

Torah is God's holy loving instructions. They don't save us...Messiah does. This is the crux of the issue. Without understanding the background to these arguments, it is easy to get caught in some of the interpretations that have been handed down.

Today, there's a lot more material out there and with cooperation between Christian and Jewish scholars, discovery of Dead Sea Scrolls a lot of issues that were taken for granted are being rehashed.

It's important that we don't think that the Reformation was the last "reform" that can take place. The Reformation was good, but didn't go far enough in taking us back to the original texts and clung to much of what was changed in the 2nd, 3rd centuries.

The problem is that we think of the Torah as something bad, when it is actually God's loving instructions..it doesn't save us, but it is all good. If Yeshua lived it out perfectly, ( as opposed to the way some of the religious leaders of His day were living it out.. who were corrupt) then we might want to ask the question why.. Torah is teachings, instructions the target that we are to aim for.. Does it save us? No! That all that Paul was saying.

If Paul was saying anything other than that, he would be contradicting every other writer of the Bible, who are all inspired by God. God does not change His mind. He improved the covenant, by making a way through Yeshua to come into His presence, but He did not cancel Torah. Yeshua gave proper interpretation to the Torah and lived it out the way it was to be lived ( i.e. it's good to do good on the Sabbath and heal people).

Sorry about the length of the comment, but that's the only way I could explain.


Joyce
 
SARAH PALIN
Check out this youtube and the comments following. These critical view of her religious ideas should give everyone a picture of how ugly opponents of monotheism can be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k

Dorothy
 
Joyce, there was a time in my Christian walk that my fear of displeasing Jesus brought me to the brink catatonia; Martin Luther had similar struggles, but humble me now understands the joy of the Shepard, I don’t so much focus on the small world of myself and what I do, but on how big and glorious He is; its not about me, but Him; do I love Him? “Feed my sheep.” Meticulous and complex culture shifts may have a place in your group, your clique, but “knowledge (CAN) buff up, but love edifies.” Again, “faith works by love.”
I’m confident you’ll brow-beat me with a Lobster claw and the constructs of you finely tuned hermeneutics, but I’m not looking for a reply, because what ever it takes to be a copy of you I don’t have. “Love casts out fear. . . and when I see the face of the One who saved me by His grace. . .” I’ll sing: “Make a joyful noise unto the LORD all ye lands.” And my tombstone will say: Thanks be to Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world; here lies the body of Setterman who can no longer sin.
 
Anon 6:15,

Yes, that is the crux of salvation. It's all about Jesus and His performance, His sacrifice, His fulfilling the Law. When we put our trust in Him alone and not us or anyone else, we keep the Law perfectly. Since scripture tells us if anyone keeps the Law they must keep it all and keep it perfectly, which is impossible, then only in Jesus can we keep it at all. So for us to try and keep it ourselves as well is both futile and insulting to the One who kept it for us.

I also don't see how it is possible to practice the Law fully without a Temple and a Levitical Priesthood. Local synagogues or anything but a single Temple in Jerusalem makes the proper worship of God under the laws of Moses impossible.

Jesus did not free us to put that heavy yoke back upon us, as already pointed out. He did not simply tack the New Law of Love onto the old Law. The "two house" theology is rife with proof-texts and wild conclusions in an effort to do that, but with Paul I will say, "I resolved to know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified." The wild branches are "the gentiles who knew not the law", and no amount of spin can make it mean something else.

Both "Hebrew Roots" and "Replacement Theology" are extremes that try to put us back under bondage, and I've never seen either group also take the curses along with the blessings allotted to Israel; they just want the prestige. But with you, I much prefer to give all the glory to God, to Jesus, and live by the Spirit instead of the flesh.

Blogged a little about that at http://tinyurl.com/5n7fxc
 
Despised, Joyce and all

One more scriptural consideration regarding the very lively debate on the Sabbath:
When Jesus and his disciples picked corn and rubbed it in their hands and ate it on a Sabbath day, the Pharrasees jumped all over him with accusations.
_But the bottom line was the Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.
He was with the Father at creation and he created the Sabbath FOR MAN, not man for the Sabbath.

I can truly see both sides of this discussion. I think it's important to note that Joyce has said numerous times that she knows that she's saved by grace, not works of the law. She's not advocating a return to the bondage of the Law.
My personal solution, for my own life, is that I don't work on Saturdays. I do consider Saturday worship to be a breach in the wall of Christianity. The Sabbath is on the seventh day and never changed.
BUT one in our position must never feel justified by our keeping of the Law, as that would be a grave error. We are free from that bondage that sinful mankind has never been able to keep and certainly
never been able to keep with no Temple and no animal sacrifice. We enter in to his gates now with the sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving. My feeble attempt to conform by avoiding work on the Sabbath is strictly an act of faith that he gave the Laws for our own good and I'm just grateful and want to please him.
I'm getting the courage up to ask our Pastor to hold services on Saturday as well as Sunday, since he's recently decided to hold two services on Sunday. I believe that we wouldn't be able to hold all the blessings he would bestow on us if we did that, but again, it's most important to have a correct attitude about it and not slip into legalism and it's ensuing
self righteousness.
The only reason that the Christian world started to worship on Sunday was because the Emperor Constantine declared it law in the year 310 or so.
Before that, Christians naturally worshipped together on the Sabbath which was always the seventh day.
Don't Christians all show the Law in their hearts when the keep the other nine commandments ?

Lastly, I'm very impressed by the compassion and
maturity shown by everyone in this debate. Christians don't always agree on every point and that's okey. But I think that the compassion shown by both sides of this one is a testimony in itself.

p
 
Good points, Paul. As the "other" Paul said, some treat one day as special and others treat them all alike (Rom. 14); let each one be fulling convinced in their own mind.

There is room for disagreement on practice; precious little is spelled out in scripture for those who have accepted Jesus. And that speaks volumes.

Even so, it is important to ensure that no one is made to feel "less" for not trying to practice a subset of Torah, or that one cannot fully understand the scriptures without seeing "two house" in every reference to Gentiles or "wild branches". We who do not agree with the "two house" interpretation are not in need of "help", or lack spirituality or insight in any way.

Understanding and vision come from the Holy Spirit, who is more than adequate for the task, but I believe He does use a person's efforts in study to accomplish this. I have found great enlightenment in "much study", especially of the language, customs, idioms, and situations of the first century. For example, I learned that koine (common) Greek was brought about through the efforts of Alexander the Great, to bring order to the many dialects of the time; it became the language of commerce and everyday speech. When "Hebrew thought" is imposed upon it to such a degree that the heart and soul of Greek is discarded, we lose a vital layer of context. In fact, I remember reading somewhere of a grad student who wanted to do his thesis on Hebraisms in the NT, only to find out there was little actual evidence of it; he had to change his thesis.

Theories abound, but as long as we allow other believers to differ on "disputable matters" it's okay. It only crosses the line when believers make these secondary theories into requirements, or look down on other believers because of them. "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you.'"
 
My Church has services on Saturday and Sunday. Jesus died on a Friday. He rose on the third day. The second day is Saturday. The third day is Sunday. The Resurrection day is therefore the Lord's Day.

Christians observed the Sabbath on Sunday, long before Constantine. We have to be careful, because the idea that Christianty began with Constantine is a very New Age one and is often used to discredit the entire Gospel.

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) lived during the reign of Antonius Pius and suffered martyrdom in 165 A.D. during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. He was an enthusiastic evangelist of the Gospel, and after traveling widely throughout the Roman Empire settled in Rome as a Christian teacher. While there, neighboring philosophers plotted against him because of his Christian profession, brought him up before the Roman authorities, who carried out his execution by beheading him.

The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 67

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things ... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead." (17)

Savvy
 
Despizedrejected, Setterman and Paul,

I will repeat one more time for the record, the translation of the word Torah is not Law..it's the teachings, it's hitting the bullseye on the target, .it's Yeshua. Yeshua is the Living Torah...We are not in disagreement about how we are all justified. The difference lies in how we see the Word of God. If we see it as a set of rules and regulations...we will miss the point. If we see it as God's loving instructions to His children, then we will realize it's only for our protection.

( by the way, in Greek there is only one word for law, any kind of law, civil law, the law of sin and death, etc.. so law doesn't always mean Torah in the writings of Paul...)

By the way, I accepted Yeshua many years ago as my Savior who paid in full for my sins...funny thing, I still sin and the way I know how when I sin is by the Torah ( all the Bible). When I realize, it is no longer I who live, but Yeshua who lives in me, I walk in my "new identity". Walking...means obeying God's Word.. I don't consider that legalism and I don't do it in my own strength, but in Him...Hope that makes sense...so we are not talking about justification by "law-keeping". In my new creation identity, He puts His Word on my heart, but there is no contradiction in His Word..God is not a God of confusion.

When I study the first five books of the Bible, I see that it's all about Yeshua. I don't observe the Shabbat as a "legalistic burden" but rather a delight. It doesn't make me better than you...I'm pointing out a teaching that has been passed down that is false. Shabbat is not abolished...It's a delight. It's a delight to rest in Yeshua because He paid it all for us. It's the same with Passover, Unleavened Bread, etc...So....delight in your day of rest and in Him..The other days most of us have to work.

Our Abba Father has given us these amazing built in reminders about rest, about being freed from the slavery of sin, etc, etc. We are now entering into a season of repentance...When you realize the treasures that these feasts are and all that we can learn about Him and about His Son and about His prophetic plan, trust me, it is not a burden but utter delight.

The feast of Tabernacles or Sukkot is about being in the place of face to face dwelling with Him...by the way, many think Yeshua was really born during this Feast. These are not LAWS, these are God appointments where He promises to meet with us in special ways, if we show up.. If we don't show up it's our loss.

If I share these things, it's not at all to be critical of you...rather to share the blessings of what I have learned, by seeking and searching with all of my heart.. I do think that one day, the whole house of Israel, the House of Judah, the House of Ephraim and the aliens who dwell among them, will be united celebrating these things.. It's not a matter of personal speculation..It's what Scripture says.

Zech. 14:16-19 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will ago up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. (Tabernacles or Sukkot) And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be bno rain on them.
If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the aplague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Right now lots of Christians go to Jerusalem to celebrate this Feast...a foreshadowing of the future perhaps. It will be a great day when the nations and Israel are worshipping the King of Kings.

Joyce
 
whoops I meant to say:
Sunday worship is a breach in the wall...
 
SUMMARY
Jesus loves you and you love Jesus. This makes you happy and content. You feel the need to rationally justify this position. Others do also. Their reasons and yours clash. Their reasons are enough for their followers and yours are for yours. Are you saying they can't be content and happy enough with their reasons?
Your reasons will make them more happy and content?

It seems this is an inter-community disagreement.

Maybe others reading here are looking for happiness and contentment, so keep it up. I think I'll just skip the arguments.

Dorothy
 
Truth is, according to the NT, we can worship God on the second Tuesday afternoon of every odd-numbered month if we choose. ;-)

It doesn't matter; there is no "Sabbath observance" ported into the NT community of believers. Rom. 14 etc. make it clear that these things are matters of personal conviction.

Worship is not prescribed or codified or enumerated or outlined for us; we are simply to walk with God "in spirit and in truth". Worship is honoring God with every breath, every thought, every action. We can "sing and make music in our hearts", carry each other's burdens, build each other up, and it all honors God.

God wants us, not our rituals or money; "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". The highest honor we can pay Him is to give ourselves, to return His love, to do what pleases Him and not do what hurts or angers Him.

How exactly each of us goes about that kind of worship is a matter of personal conviction. It may not be accurate to call The Lord's Day "the Sabbath", but we could call it whatever we want and God wouldn't care. The important thing is the heart and the relationship.
 
Good site--

http://tinyurl.com/6pg2tg
 
Anonymous 9:01 pm
This site is so typical of self-centered researchers on New Age. It might just as well be all of the religious and right wing sites that center on themselves. Unless they move the discussion forward by pointing to this website, I find them generally run of the mill, not particularly important.

It's been over 25 years since Constance pointed out the dangers of New Age. That's a lot of years where research should have been done and shared. Astute researchers, particularly those organizationally connected and funded have no excuse for not being up to date.

I suppose we should be grateful for any information that gets out. At the same time our allegiance should be to Cumbey who has paid the price for being so far ahead of the crowd for so many years. I would hope you contact the website given and ask them to link to this website.

The New Age movement is not just a little sideline in the causes going on in the world. It's not just a resurgence of some old idea. The political end of this movement large, powerful and is out to destroy every monotheist.

Remind others of that.

Dorothy
 
Thanks, Dorothy, but I should hope any allegiance should be to God and not to me.

Constance
 
Despiszedrejected,
Leviticus 23 is about God's sacred appointed times.It's the calendar He established and He never revoked it.

When you read this verse, it becomes evident that Paul is not criticizing Torah observant Jews..He says, "you were slaves which by nature are no gods"

Read carefully and you will understand he is not talking to Torah observant Jews who know Yeshua:

Gal. 4:8-10 However at that time, awhen you did not know God, you were slaves to chose which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be aknown by God, bhow is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

This certainly speaks of people who were enslaved to something else, but not people that followed YHVH.

If he were criticizing Torah observant Jews, we wouldn't find this verse presenting Torah observant Jews, zealous for Yeshua in the Book of Acts, presenting them in such a positive light:

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began aglorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many 1thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all bzealous for the Law;

Now if what you say is true, why would Paul criticize them in the book of Galatians and then they are praised in the Book of Acts? I submit to you that the group in Galatia were more than Torah observant Jews who found Yeshua. They were into Jewish mysticism. Paul would never have criticized a Torah observant Jew, since he was one himself. By his own words in Acts 28 "he did NOTHING against the customs of the fathers".

That is why, I emphasize, it SOOOOO important to understand context. We gloss over verses like some of those that I mention, to prove an anti-Torah theology. Today there is much scholarly discussion and debate about this whole subject and I believe it's because for 1900 years the anti-Semitic theology handed down by some of the gentiles of the 2nd Century is coming into question.

Look at how God introduces His appointments:

Lev. 23:1-2The LORD spoke again to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘aThe LORD’S appointed times which you shall bproclaim as holy convocations — My appointed times are these:

In speaking of Yom Kippur, look what God says:

Lev. 16:29 ¶ “This shall be a permanent statute for you: ain the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall humble your souls and not bdo any work, whether the native, or the alien who sojourns among you;

Look where the ruling at the Jerusalem Council came from..the book of Leviticus..this is just one of the rulings, but you see my point:

Lev. 17:12 “Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, ‘No person among you may eat blood, nor may any alien who sojourns among you eat blood.’

God always gave the same thing to the native born in Israel as the alien. He said these things were eternal( olam in Hebrew means forever) . The death penalty for violating His commands is taken away, and no we should not judge others as to how they work out their salvation, but teaching others is another story. We are called to make disciples of Yeshua, who obeyed Torah perfectly i.e. gave correct interpretation to the Torah. Yes, He was Lord of the Sabbath and it was made for man, not the reverse.

The proof that these feasts are eternal is that we will celebrate them in the kingdom, as proven by the verse in Zechariah 14 that I posted earlier.

It may be comfortable to accept theologies that are handed down, but then if they cause us to throw out verses of Scripture that we can't explain, we may want to take another look. This is what Systematic theology does..It applies a "system" to the Bible and makes it "fit" in. When verses come up that don't fit...it just ignores them.

Maybe, just maybe we can't fit God in our theological boxes.. We can know Him on the pages of the Scriptures in Spirit and in Truth, but are we willing to hear His Voice and obey it?

Since many on this blog are willing to do honest research on the New Age movement, I wonder if you are willing to go back to the 1st Century and find out why the spirit of lawlessness ( torahlessness) existed even back then.

2Th. 2:7 For athe mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only bhe who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

It only got worse after the apostles died and lots of Torahlessness entered in, to the point where Marcion wanted to get rid of the Tanach ( what you refer to as Old Testament). It was named Old Testament thanks to his influence, even though he was labeled a heretic.

One of the ways that heresy enters into the body of Messiah today, is because of a lack of understanding of God's holiness, which we learn about in Torah.

It's nice to say we are "save by Jesus" and that's all we need, but if God's laws are not written on our hearts, which they can only be by applying Genesis to Revelations, then we can easily fall prey to deception.

Paul has been misrepresented and given a bum rap. He was a Torah observant Jew that was saved by Yeshua and knew that salvation was only in Him.

Some food for thought..
Joyce
 
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce,

You obviously missed my previous comment. In a few sentences it gives the crux of Christianity, the heart of what it's all about. Everything else is secondary.

FWIW, you do have a "systematic theology" of your own: Hebrew Roots. Yes, it's a ST, by virtue of the fact that you put a "Hebrew Roots" filter over all scripture, regardless of context. You do ignore many verses that don't fit in with that. You interchange Gentiles and Northern Kingdom not by context but by whether or not it fits your ST. You also have confused some things and twisted what I actually said, whether deliberate or not.

But as I've tried to say before, this is not the place to wage an endless feud; the topic here is how Evangelicalism has been hijacked. To keep trying to browbeat me into adopting your ST is counter-productive to what we're all really here for: to unite around Jesus.

If, as you have agreed, Jesus is all we need for salvation, and if, as scripture says, we who believe all have the Holy Spirit, and if we all have the entire Bible to study, then we have all we need for faith and practice.

You have your ST, I have mine, and continuing to make condescending remarks about those who disagree with you does not help your case. I am not disobedient, blind, ignorant, biased, stupid or indoctrinated by churches. I am not in need of "help" from your ST and am not lacking in understanding context. I just disagree, and that is something you'll need to come to grips with. There is no need to keep repeating yourself.
 
Desipzednrejected,

YOU SAID:
You obviously missed my previous comment. In a few sentences it gives the crux of Christianity, the heart of what it's all about. Everything else is secondary.

ME:
I didn't miss anything you said..I'm not talking about Christianity. I am a Jew who knows my Messiah, not a Christian. Christianity to me is something that developed 2nd, 3rd 4th Century.


YOU SAID:
FWIW, you do have a "systematic theology" of your own: Hebrew Roots. Yes, it's a ST, by virtue of the fact that you put a "Hebrew Roots" filter over all scripture, regardless of context. You do ignore many verses that don't fit in with that. You interchange Gentiles and Northern Kingdom not by context but by whether or not it fits your ST. You also have confused some things and twisted what I actually said, whether deliberate or not.

ME:
I don't change Gentiles with the Northern Kingdom. There are Gentiles who are just Gentiles..Then there is the Northern Kingdom who were mixed with the nations and became "not a people". I refer you back to the book of Hosea.. I don't think you really understand what I am saying. When the Northern Kingdom went into Assyrian exile they were mixed with the nations and lost their identity as Israel, and therefore are just like Gentiles for all practical purposes. Judah, maintained their identity, preserved the Torah and from Judah of course we have Messiah. You might want to look back at the promises to Ephraim vs. the promises to Judah when Israel blesses his children and grandchildren in Gen 48 and 49. A careful reading will show that Ephraim became a "melo hagoyim" or the fulness of the nations.. I'm not confused about this. The kingdom was split in two and there is a future promise to reunite the kingdom which has not happened yet. If you believe God's promises, as I do, then you will see that this must take place at a later date. In the meantime as the gospel goes out to the nations, the nations hear and believe, but within the nations Israel is also hearing..

Rom. 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret — that ye may not be wise in your own conceits — that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;

YOU SAID:
But as I've tried to say before, this is not the place to wage an endless feud; the topic here is how Evangelicalism has been hijacked. To keep trying to browbeat me into adopting your ST is counter-productive to what we're all really here for: to unite around Jesus.

ME:
NOT trying to browbeat you at all. Sorry if you feel that way. I'm simply responding to your remarks.. If you didn't respond back, I probably wouldn't either...

YOU SAID:
If, as you have agreed, Jesus is all we need for salvation, and if, as scripture says, we who believe all have the Holy Spirit, and if we all have the entire Bible to study, then we have all we need for faith and practice.

ME:
In theory, I don't have a problem with what your saying. In practice, Todd Bentley would have said he had the Holy Spirit too...so not sure that the words always match the reality. The other comment I would make about your remark is if we all have the Holy Spirit, then why is there so much difference of opinion? Is God a God of confusion? I personally don't think so, but I think the expression "having the Holy Spirit" is way overused and abused in modern evangelical circles. Do you think the people that roll over and bark, "have the Holy Spirit". I'm not meaning to be condescending, but merely pointing out how we use phrases that don't mean much nowadays. Holiness is defined in Torah. The God of Ancient Israel is the same yesterday, today and forever and His Spirit would never tell us to roll over and bark ( just for one example). The question is, what does He tell us to do, and do we do it????

YOU SAID:
You have your ST, I have mine, and continuing to make condescending remarks about those who disagree with you does not help your case. I am not disobedient, blind, ignorant, biased, stupid or indoctrinated by churches. I am not in need of "help" from your ST and am not lacking in understanding context. I just disagree, and that is something you'll need to come to grips with. There is no need to keep repeating yourself.

ME:

I never said any such thing about you and don't mean to sound condescending. Again, the conversation started because Constance made a remark and I was responding to her, not to you. You chimed in, which is fine on a blog, so I responded. If you don't want me to respond, it would be better for you not to make statements that demand a response.

As for a system of theology.... I don't have one honestly, although I am familiar with systematic theology. My approach to Scripture is to come to the text and try to hear what it is saying. I don't come to it with my idea of what it's saying and try to get it to fit in..

I am always studying and asking God to reveal what it is He wants me to know and trying to obey Him, so that's my approach to my faith. It's actually kind of simple, but if I ever give up studying and think I know the Scriptures perfectly, so why bother asking anymore questions...I'm in big trouble.

Shabbat shalom,
Joyce
 
Well, Joyce, all that talk about Jesus didn't mean what you appeared to be passing it off as meaning. You could have clarified this a lot sooner and saved many posts, because I though I was talking to a Christian. You know this is a Christian-focused site, don't you?

Christianity didn't "develop", it was birthed. Jesus rose from the dead, and at Pentecost the Spirit was given, just as Jesus said. That's when Christianity was born. The NT is all about witnesses to those events, and then helping the believers to know what had changed in the way of our relationship to God and how they should act accordingly.

Your Messiah fulfilled the Law, every last point. He fulfilled every single prophecy. When Peter stood in front of the Jewish crowd on Pentecost, he told the Jews to their faces that they had to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah. Those who did became Christians, signified by their being baptized, which was a big deal at the time.

The apostles recorded Jesus' words; they or their close associates penned the NT. To call all of that a later invention is both historically false and spiritually insulting to Jesus.

A "Jew who knows their Messiah" is a Christian; there are no half-Jews or half-Christians in the spiritual sense. You could be an ethnic Jew and a Christian.

Paul clearly stated that it is the Mosaic Law that we **died** to; he used the illustration of remarriage to show that it would be impossible to be joined to Jesus while still "married" to the old Law.

There is just no way to blend both the Levitical priesthood and the Melchizedek priesthood; no way to practice Judaism without a Temple and priests of Levi; no way to put new wine in old wineskins. And no, Todd Bently has nothing to do with anything we've discussed. Nice try.

Anyway, the Jesus who saves, who is the true Messiah, has fulfilled the law for us, and it's nonsense to think that means civil law. Unless you can keep it perfectly, you need a priest and a Temple or your sins are not being covered.

But Jesus provided a superior sacrifice, his own blood, brought to the altar in the perfect Temple in heaven. All who accept his sacrifice on their behalf are **finished** with the sacrifice of animals, and with the Law (Torah) that those rituals were a part of.

That was my last-ditch effort to explain to you that to accept Jesus as Messiah means no longer being under Torah. To accept Jesus is to accept a new Temple and a new Priesthood, and to discard the old. This is the gospel.
 
DESPIZDNREJECTED
YOU SAID:
Well, Joyce, all that talk about Jesus didn't mean what you appeared to be passing it off as meaning. You could have clarified this a lot sooner and saved many posts, because I though I was talking to a Christian. You know this is a Christian-focused site, don't you?

ME:
Number 1, this is a New Age focused site, but that's another story. Number 2, I believe in Yeshua, but I'm a Jew who knows my Messiah....so were the disciples, by the way.


YOU SAID:

Christianity didn't "develop", it was birthed. Jesus rose from the dead, and at Pentecost the Spirit was given, just as Jesus said. That's when Christianity was born. The NT is all about witnesses to those events, and then helping the believers to know what had changed in the way of our relationship to God and how they should act accordingly.

ME:

Pentecost is really Shavuot and the people who came to Jerusalem were Torah observant Jews from the diaspora and god-fearers...They did not start a "new religion".. Yeshua opened up the disciples to what was said about Him in the Torah and Prophets. That's not exactly starting a new religion:

Luke 24:44 ¶ Now He said to them, “aThese are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the bLaw of Moses and the Prophets and cthe Psalms must be fulfilled.


YOU SAID:
Your Messiah fulfilled the Law, every last point. He fulfilled every single prophecy. When Peter stood in front of the Jewish crowd on Pentecost, he told the Jews to their faces that they had to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah. Those who did became Christians, signified by their being baptized, which was a big deal at the time.

ME:
Repentance is a Torah value. That's what Israelites did from the time of Moses, when they sinned, they did teshuvah...not a new concept. Baptism, or mikvahs were practiced prior to that too. They did not become "Christians". The word Christian was later coined by the Romans to insult the believers in Yeshua, but they were still going to the Temple, the synagogues...they were considered just another sect of Judaism, which had a number of sects at that time. The earliest believers were mostly Jews, but those who weren't were already attending the synagogues and temples..


YOU SAID:
The apostles recorded Jesus' words; they or their close associates penned the NT. To call all of that a later invention is both historically false and spiritually insulting to Jesus.

ME:
The apostles were Jews..The word Messianic which means the same as Christian, is simply some who follows the Messiah. The fact that the disciples followed their Messiah doesn't mean they started a "new religion".


YOU SAID:

A "Jew who knows their Messiah" is a Christian; there are no half-Jews or half-Christians in the spiritual sense. You could be an ethnic Jew and a Christian.

ME:

There's a whole group of people out there who would vehemently disagree with you...I do not considered myself a Christian. I consider myself a Jew, some would say "completed Jew". I don't use that expression...but you get the idea. The promises were given to Israel.. I am a physical descendant of Israel, from the house of Judah who knows my Messiah.

YOU SAID:

Paul clearly stated that it is the Mosaic Law that we **died** to; he used the illustration of remarriage to show that it would be impossible to be joined to Jesus while still "married" to the old Law.

There is just no way to blend both the Levitical priesthood and the Melchizedek priesthood; no way to practice Judaism without a Temple and priests of Levi; no way to put new wine in old wineskins. And no, Todd Bently has nothing to do with anything we've discussed. Nice try.

ME:

The change is in the priesthood..although there will be animal sacrifices and levitical priests in the kingdom, just not for forgiveness of sin...See Ezekiel 46, which discusses animal sacrifices in the Millennial Temple., in fact I post it. Bear in mind, this is in the Millennial Temple:

Ezek. 46:3 “The apeople of the land shall also worship at the doorway of that gate before the LORD on the sabbaths and on the bnew moons.
Ezek. 46:4 “The aburnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be bsix lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish;
Ezek. 46:5 and the agrain offering shall be an ephah 1with the ram, and the grain offering 1with the lambs 2as much as he is bable to give, and a hin of oil 1with an ephah.
Ezek. 46:6 “On the day of the anew moon he shall offer a young bull without blemish, also six lambs and a ram, which shall be without blemish.
Ezek. 46:7 “And he shall provide a agrain offering, an ephah 1with the bull and an ephah 1with the ram, and 1with the lambs as 2much as he is bable, and a hin of oil 1with an ephah.
Ezek. 46:8 “When the aprince enters, he shall go in by way of the porch of the gate and go out 1by the same way.
Ezek. 46:9 “But when the people of the land come abefore the LORD at the appointed feasts, he who enters by way of the north gate to worship shall go out by way of the south gate. And he who enters by way of the south gate shall go out by way of the north gate. 1No one shall return by way of the gate by which he entered but shall go straight out.
Ezek. 46:10 “When they go in, the prince shall go in aamong them; and when they go out, 1he shall go out.
Ezek. 46:11 ¶ “At the afestivals and the appointed feasts the bgrain offering shall be an ephah 1with a bull and an ephah 1with a ram, and 1with the lambs as 2much as one is able to give, and a hin of oil 1with an ephah.
Ezek. 46:12 “When the prince provides a afreewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be bopened for him. And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the csabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out.
Ezek. 46:13 ¶ “And you shall provide a alamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering to the LORD daily; bmorning by morning you shall provide it.

Yeshua blood cannot be compared with the blood of bulls and goats, no doubt, but having said that there are still korban ( which means to draw near...not sacrifice like our english Bibles translate it). His blood gives us access to the throne room in heaven, so that is what was inaugurated with His death and resurrection. Having said that you will notice that the feasts ( the appointed times) will still be celebrated, Shabbat, Sukkot, etc.

If you don't know about these things, it would be good to study since we will be doing them in the kingdom, not celebrating Christmas...and Easter...sorry about that, but that's what Scripture says, not me..

I'm not meaning to get on your case, but just pointing out the inconsistencies. When a passage cannot be explained in our theology, should we just ignore it? Where do you see Christmas celebrated in the Bible? or Easter. I'm not judging anyone who celebrates this, so don't get upset, but I am pointing out how God's calendar is given to us in Torah..see Leviticus 23 if you want to know what feasts we'll celebrate in the kingdom.

YOU SAID:

Anyway, the Jesus who saves, who is the true Messiah, has fulfilled the law for us, and it's nonsense to think that means civil law. Unless you can keep it perfectly, you need a priest and a Temple or your sins are not being covered.

ME:
I say to that nonsense.. If I were trying to earn my salvation by obeying the Torah, that would be problematic, but that's not what I'm saying here. You really need to reread what I have said because it sounds like you don't understand the heart of what I am saying and you are reading ideas in that are simply not there.


YOU SAID:

But Jesus provided a superior sacrifice, his own blood, brought to the altar in the perfect Temple in heaven. All who accept his sacrifice on their behalf are **finished** with the sacrifice of animals, and with the Law (Torah) that those rituals were a part of.

ME:

Explain the passage in Eze 46 of the Millennial Temple.. If you have another explanation for it, I'd love to hear it, but it's there and there is no doubt it is talking about a future time under Messiah when there will be a rebuilt Temple. Do those offerings save us? No. Are they fulfilling other functions.? I would have to say yes, or the passage would not be there for us to read. If it doesn't fit into your theology, maybe your theology has to be adjusted to agree with Scripture.

YOU SAID:
That was my last-ditch effort to explain to you that to accept Jesus as Messiah means no longer being under Torah. To accept Jesus is to accept a new Temple and a new Priesthood, and to discard the old. This is the gospel.

ME:
"Under Torah" or "Under the Law" means under the penalty of DEATH...that the Torah imposes..Yeshua came to take our punishment. He didn't come to abolish God's holiness. Yes, we all fall short of the glory of God and thanks to Yeshua, when we do, we can confess our sins and be cleansed of all unrighteousness, but sin is still sin and Torah defines what sin is, what God's holiness is, what His calendar is, what clean food is, etc,etc. If you want to ignore His instructions..you are free to do that, but you might be missing out on some blessings ...

By the way, the Todd Bentley remark was very apropos because not everyone who says they have the Spirit has it, and not everyone who says they know Yeshua knows Him.

I think we've beat this one to death so....

Shabbat shalom,
Joyce
 
All,

Link on Kim Jong-Il's possible recent health crisis, and the subsequent refitting of nuclear reactor components, in abrogation of a recent nonproliferation treaty.

http://tinyurl.com/6g6ak7
 
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