Yikes! Brigitte Bardot is on trial for "bashing Islam" in a private letter she sent to French authorities in the context of her animal rights movement work. The prosecution is suggesting a $22,000 fine and a prison sentence as punishment for "incitement."
At first, given Brigitte Bardot's sensuous media history, the event seems almost amusing. Then one looks at it in context. Rights of free speech -- as well as of religion -- are coming to a crashing halt in this globalized, Alliance of Civilizations ("Civilisations" to our British and Canadian cousins) implementing culture.
Because Brigitte Bardot is supporting the pronouncedly New Age animal rights cause, it might be easy as an anti-New Age activist to overlook this as well. I do not. It is a dangerous precedent -- one that will make it possible to go after us in our letter writings, editorial expressions, etc.
At first, given Brigitte Bardot's sensuous media history, the event seems almost amusing. Then one looks at it in context. Rights of free speech -- as well as of religion -- are coming to a crashing halt in this globalized, Alliance of Civilizations ("Civilisations" to our British and Canadian cousins) implementing culture.
Because Brigitte Bardot is supporting the pronouncedly New Age animal rights cause, it might be easy as an anti-New Age activist to overlook this as well. I do not. It is a dangerous precedent -- one that will make it possible to go after us in our letter writings, editorial expressions, etc.
Some forms of religious incitement, however, are evidently ok with the powers that be. Karen Armstrong has made decidedly incendiary statements about Christians, especially Bible believing Christians. She is calling for a new decidedly pantheistic form of global "civilization" where we not only respect one's right to practice their religion -- we learn to appreciate their religion. Here's betting that type of incitement will never go on trial -- at least before that great and awful Judgment Day -- a day Karen Armstrong no longer worries about as she rejects the Book of Revelation along with the gospels.
Indeed, perilous times are here. Will we recognize them for what they are when they are occurring in real time amidst the daily grind of our hectic lives?
Stay tuned!
Indeed, perilous times are here. Will we recognize them for what they are when they are occurring in real time amidst the daily grind of our hectic lives?
Stay tuned!
99 comments:
Dear Constance,
I posted the talk
"Signs of the Times"
by Father Seraphim Rose at
http://njcr807.livejournal.com/1196.html
.
I found that transcript at
http://users.sisqtel.net/williams/signs.html
.
Thanks! I consider Seraphim Rose's book, ORTHODOXY AND THE RELIGION OF THE FUTURE one of the most important volumes in my personal library!
Constance
Yikes! I just got a new debit card that uses RFID tag and antenna for something called PayPass. It's a Mastercard and you tap it to pay without a signature under $25 on a register outfitted to read it. No receipt. I feel like it is an economic hex.I want to send it back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_the_Holy_See
Pope or Vatican coat of arms
kck
Hey Constance! I got the link to your post from FP. Scary Stuff! Sheesh!
Where is everybody?
There appears to be a takeover effort going on in the Christian political community.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_fundamentalists
"This week in the religious right: Evangelicals may have excluded political leaders from the drafting of a new manifesto"
http://www.worldnewspaperpublishing.com/news/FullStory.asp?loc=TCW&id=1626 or http://tinyurl.com/62g6hh
"There is an unseemly power struggle going on in the evangelical world these days. It is a struggle for leadership and dominance, for the right to be the unofficial spokesperson for evangelicals. The “religious left” has put forth men such as Jim Wallis. Rick Warren has had everyone from Bono to Barack Obama in his pulpit to help him assert his claim. The Emergent Church is putting forth Tony Jones and Brian McLaren, among others. And, of course, there are the “traditional” leaders of the so-called “religious right,” including Gary Bauer, Tony Perkins, Chuck Colson, and James Dobson."
Any comments on how this fits into a New Age agenda?
Dorothy
Dorothy:
Just proof that "the smoke of Satan" has slowly creeped into ALL religious organizations . . . in order to deceive many.
Oprah starting a new cult....
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351545,00.html
Any comments on how this fits into a New Age agenda?
Hi Dorothy,
As you and Constance talked about on the wonderful and thought-provoking broadcast of "My Perspective" last week, the plan is for the Christians all have a go at each other.
My own sense, based on many years of first-hand interaction and observation (as opposed to research and scholarship) is that most American "Fundamentalist" Christians--perceive themselves as "persecuted" by the secular culture but, by and large, these people tend to worship money, worldly success, and free-market capitalism and have little or no social awareness. Chinese, Sudanese, Arab and North Korean Christians are not on their radar--but shopping, corporate pensions, nice houses, big cars, and social respectability are obsessions. They quote relentlessly certain chosen parts of scripture (John is the favorite) and conveniently ignore others. Suffering? That's for people who aren't saved and therefore won't be "raptured."
Somehow, these folks(at least the ones I have known) manage to hold this weird and misguided worship of mammon in tension with genuinely orthodox beliefs about the nature of Jesus Christ. Faith, however, resembles a big fuzzy, cuddly comfort blanket--not the cross.
Where am I going with this? As the lure of material comfort and social standing in the form of speaking engagements, book contracts, pastoral appointments, etc. starts to become tied to one's willingness to embrace the "New Paradigm," it will challenge severely the faith of these people (which, generally speaking, I think is genuine--no matter how little regard they have for actual demands of the Gospel)as they see their leaders "following the money" and, bit by bit, abandon orthodoxy.
There will be an enormous crisis of leadership as these mega-churches start to unravel (I haven't followed the goings on at Willow Creek, but I knew many people who attended it years ago and it was definitely NOT New Age -- how quickly things can change, apparently).
Evangelical Protestantism is hugely vulnerable to this "transformation" and infiltration because there is no central teaching authority--Catholics have the magesterium, a unique institution that guards orthodoxy in matters of faith and morals, even while so many of its members embrace apostasy. All kinds of Evangelical of genuinely good will are being used by calculating, scripture quoting snakes like Pat Robertson, Rick Warren, et al.
Love of money being the root of all evil, and I think many genuine but untested American evangelical Christians are, when faith demands something of them instead of just giving them good feelings, are going to have their beliefs severely tested in the coming fire.
Lest I give the impression that I am demonizing the religious right, I have no time for Jim Wallis and his crowd of sanctimonious careerist hypocrites either.
Rose
Rose:
You have made some very valid points here.
It's really up to each and every one of us as individuals (mo matter which "branch" of the church we are members) to examine our own conscience, heart and soul. By renewing and "cementing" our personal relationship with HIM, we will be provided with His mantle of spiritual protection. This will help us continue on the right path and should guide us in avoiding all of the "spiritual bumps" in the road ahead.
I have always had a small problem with "prosperity-oriented" mega-churches.
First of all, that Country Western song, "Would Jesus wear a Rolex?" comes to mind.
And secondly -- "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Matthew 19:21 - KJV)
I would appreciate it if someone could tell me the difference, if any, between the Rick Warren crowd and the Emerging Church group. Then, how do they differ from the establishment right groups such as Dobson's.
Is there a difference in doctrine? Is there a difference in how they grow their community? What is the history of these groupings?
How do the three groups relate to other relgious groups such as Catholics, Jews, and Muslims?
What is the future of the three groups?
Is there a New Age connection to any/all of them?
Dorothy
I am under extremely heavy attack -- please pray for me!
Constance
EXCELLENT POINTS, ROSE!
Constance
It is not about churches it is about being born again, either you are or your not.
If you are not then you are not in God's family, if you are then you have the Holy Spirit living within you.
The Holy Spirit enters in when you say the sinners prayer as a knowledgeable person, not as a baby with the urging of the Holy Spirit, you are chosen and pulled to Him.
Once saved always saved and you know it in your knower as it's supernatural as you are a changed person from that moment on in your heart, mind, body and soul.
What makes it easy is when you know the Bible in short order you can separate the goats from the sheep and all fake Christians stand out like sore thumbs. Once you use God's measure the lost in the pulpit are not worth the second it takes to move on.
Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.
We are however to point out the fakes, just think how different it would have been if only the "real" Christians had stood up and said that guy is dead wrong and here's why.
Satan has no better friend than the unsaved going to church.
One of those born again, black and white, Bible believers. Thank God!
Please pray for the farmers, I live in the middle of the midwest and it's raining cats and dogs, again.
kck
Connie,
Will keep you in my prayers being a child of God I know he hears them.
Protection, knowledge, open up right doors, strength, clearness of head, quick to respond in love, need I go on?
Love you old girl,
Kay Fox kck
Connie,
Will keep you in my prayers being a child of God I know he hears them.
Protection, knowledge, open up right doors, strength, clearness of head, quick to respond in love, need I go on?
Love you old girl,
Kay Fox kck
News of Oprah has hit fox news!
http://tinyurl.com/5t24ox
Dawn
Dorothy said, "Any comments on how this fits into a New Age agenda?"
Well isn't this part of the Armegeddon Script?
Divide, Conquer and Pillage.
Let us all remember both groups, Catholics and Protestants and their ebbing tide of abuse, misuse , materialism, hypocrisy and occultism.
Now take a deep breath as you think about all of that.
And keep the phrase,
"Divide And Conquer"
at the forefront of all of this.
johnny
Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
(John 3:5 - KJV)
Constance:
Please be assured that you are in our daily prayers
May God, the Holy Spirit give you courage, strength and wisdom in your continued research of the New Age / Anti-Christ Movement . . . and your leadership and guidance of this "internet ministry."
In Jesus' name AMEN.
Oh Dear - it appears the press reports about BB could be a tad misleading.
Apparently this was NOT a private letter.
Ireland online report;
http://tinyurl.com/4llax8
Telegram.com report;
http://tinyurl.com/3lr238
~K~
what's really scary, is the fact that most christians are being taught that they wont go thru the tribulation, they wont be tested and they will enter the kingdom with all their eathly posessions...the caveate: as long as they hate homosexsuals and dont have an abortion, that's the state of american christianity...that's truly scary
PRIVATE LETTER or PUBLICLY DISSEMINATED LETTER -- there are still issues of freedom of speech that can impact us all, especially as globalization and the Alliance of Civilizations advances.
Constance
Hi Dorothy, I’d like to venture a response to you earlier comment and questions.. My apologies for the length of these comments, the questions you posed took some detail to answer. I fully expect to regain my title for the World's Longest Comments.
I can’t offer an opinion about the “Evangelical Manifesto” until the document is released in May and we all have the opportunity to read it and analyze the contents and its signers. It’s definitely something to pay attention to. I would like to point out, (in case anyone noticed and wondered about the Warren Smith mentioned in the article and writer of “The Manifesto Is The Message” piece) Warren Cole Smith, referenced in The American Prospect article, and writer of The Charlotte World article is NOT the same Warren Smith Constance has interviewed on her My Perspective radio program several times. Two completely different people with the same first and last name. As to your question about differences between some of the “church groups” and Christian personalities. I’ll share my thoughts with you.
By all appearances there is a separation taking place in the world. I don’t see this as much a separation between “branches” of Christianity, as I do a separation between those who acknowledge Jesus Christ as the only provision for salvation, given by God to the world, and those who don’t. I am speaking from the Christian perspective of what God Himself says in His Word to me. He is the one who is doing the separating. Those who BELIEVE, (according to what is written in the Bible) are all parts of the same body with Jesus Christ as the head. We’ve got one Shepherd, and He’s not going to lose one sheep. His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. Those who don’t believe, whatever their religious or spiritual persuasion, have consciously or unconsciously, made the choice to exclude themselves from His offer. So, the closer we get to His promised return, the more obvious the differences between those who believe and those who don’t will become. Here is the way I interpret the New Age connection and it’s effect on the “religious” population, America in particular. Remember, I’m only trying to share my thoughts, it doesn’t mean I’ve got it right.
It’s like a trickle- down effect..
I’ll explain from the top down (and by no means, in the scope of the movement worldwide, do I see the people I list below as the TOP of the New Age Hierarchy) – the names are just quick and easy to reference as an example of how I see a New Age spiritual belief system has infiltrated the “evangelical” realm. The first “religious” New Age influence comes from persons with an openly, Luciferic based belief system with all the evolutionary-consciousness trimmings. Examples would be Benjamin Crème, David Spangler, Peter LeMesurier, and Barbara Marx Hubbard. Many came before them, and thousands upon thousands of others are included in this group today. Each of these people has at one time or other incorporated “Jesus” and even some words from the Bible into their form of spirituality. Are they Christians? Not by a long shot.
On a slightly lower rung of the New Age “spiritual” ladder you find leaders such as Neale Donald Walsh, Michael Beckwith, and Marianne Williamson. (It’s also at this level more of the political/environmentally conscious/” world peace efforts and “religious” interfaith leaders enter the picture) The “Spiritual Leader’s in this group are openly New Age but yet “religious” enough to attract spiritual seekers looking for a Sunday morning, “church-like” setting, yet have their leanings toward the “mystical” and
“selfless service to mankind” greatly appreciated. This group also will hear the Master Jesus spoken of fondly, with appropriate Bible passages, in addition to reading from other ancient spiritual texts. This group doesn’t make a profession of being Christian, they are Spiritual.
Here is where I see the “Emergent Church” in all its forms take shape.
What the “emergent” church is teaching is basically the same message as that of “the NEW Age Spirituality” using, intentionally or not, a counterfeit “Jesus” as the bait . They have moved away from accepting what the Bible says is the eternally true, trustworthy, unchanging regardless of culture changes, Word of God. Not, as some prominent emergent leaders say, the Bible contains, “Words about God”.
Those in the “emerging”/”evolving” religious movement are drawing followers with a similar,(in the same way a mirror reflects a similar image)but yet very different gospel than the one passed through the ages since the time of the first disciples. The leadership of these groups do not say they reject Jesus, on the contrary, they have some very nice things to say about Him. Emergent leader Rob Bell says, (about Jesus) “He is the “best” possible way to live.” This is true. The error is in what is not said.
The “Mission” of the church says Bell, is, “We’re devoted to focusing Inward.” They speak, using the same spiritual language, to describe themselves as do the most articulate of the New Age Spiritual Leaders. They are “evolving”, “emerging” “transforming” “awakening” “accelerating the kingdom” “Christ-consciousness” seeking, Christians. Am I the only one that sees a conflict of interests with this picture?
I would include in this emergent church,most of the participants in Robert Schullers Re-Think Conference, many (not all) of popular Christian tv ministries with world-wide outreach Rick Warren and others.
It is my opinion those in this group make up a huge majority of those Christians who have now joined themselves side by side, hand in hand with any and all, “non-religious” and inter-faith “World Goodwill” (Climate crisis, “Let Peace Prevail” Aids, etc.) MDG activities as members of the Global Family.
I don’t have any additional information about James Dobson, or his current political influence (other than what we know from the past) The only recent troubling news was about the editing of his Focus on the Family Canadian broadcast for any dialogue which might be offensive to appease Canadian broadcast law.
As to the relationship with Catholics, Jews and Muslims I don’t see any “hate –crime” charges being brought against Rick Warren or any other emergent group. The “offend no one” “peace at all costs” gospel doesn’t stir up anyone enough to cause an offense. -Rudi
relatively good synapsis Rudi -
DouginMI
Go tell it on the mountain Rudi !
Over the hills and everywhere.
This is a beautiful synopsis of every-
thing that we're talking about here
and pulls it all together nicely.
Thank you, sister.
Paul
Constance,
I'm praying for your peace of mind
today. It should be there any minute
as God very often answers my prayers
in the affirmative. I've had so many
prayers answered it's unbelievable.
...and I didn't even take the course
in miracles.
God bless you sister in Christ.
Paul
May the peace that passes
all understanding rule in the hearts
and minds of these children of
the most high God.
The real enemies are fear, unbelief,
and preoccupation with the things
of this world. The enemies of the
Lord melt like wax before the fire.
Lord we know that sorrow may
endure for a while but joy
comes in the morning.
Of the writing of many books there
is no end, and much study is a
weariness to the flesh.
Paul
Thanks Rudi, right on.
When I was in California several weeks ago, (enjoying temperatures into the seventies I might add), I decided to visit a mega church I’ve been hearing a lot about. Bethel Church in Redding advertises itself as a focal point for the coming “supernatural revival”.
Fluttering in the warm California breeze, brightly colored banners representing all the nations of the world lined the winding parkway leading up to the church. As I made my way up the flag lined road the drive panned out into an extensive series of parking lots surrounded by beautifully landscaped garden areas with plenty of inviting benches set beside young trees already bursting with spring blooms. The international flavor of the drive up to the parking lot was enough by itself to make me start feeling like a true “global citizen”. Indeed, my frozen Washington State bones were in heaven as I exited my vehicle on this fine sunshine filled California morning. Ahhh, so this is what the celestial “city on a hill” will look like, eh? Well, I won’t take the space here to describe the actual service, I’ll just leave that to your imaginations. But I did pause long enough after the service to visit the bookstore where the usual NA/Evangelical mixed up blather was prominently displayed . Here’s a sample of some of the more interesting book titles, with a brief description from the Bethel website:
The Coming Shift
Author: Larry Randolph
“The world is standing at the threshold of an unprecedented shift. In light of this reality, we must embrace fresh paradigms of change and uncover the passageway that leads from the "old" to the "new". To help navigate this critical transition…”
A Life of Miracles: A 365 day guide to prayer and miracles
Author: Bill Johnson
“You can experience A Life of Miracles day after day!Combining the most inspiring of three best-selling books, this 365-day guide to prayer and miracles feeds you daily manna from Heaven. Your spirit will be enlightened and your soul...
Geez, I hope everyone is ready. The spiritual paradigm shift bus appears to be getting ready to leave the station.
http://www.ibethel.org/
For those of you who travel, this might be fun....
Mystery Worshippers...
http://ship-of-fools.com/mystery/usa.html
Sorry Rudi, your answer is long but not responsive.
I already know what basic Christianity teaches. I already have much research on individuals and organizations, Christian, Jewish, New Age, peace, environment, animal rights, etc. Twenty-six years of research on New Age connections added to prior to those years research on communist activity, cults and other cultural change groups have led me to another line of thought.
It's standard that followers of any line of thought believe they are right and others are wrong, leading to their saying "Because you disagree with me you are wrong." Sacred or secular, each group has their own set of authorities.
So, how should we judge the validity of the claimed truths of any group. The only way is by looking at the results achieved by those following a belief system.
To do that we need to know what the belief system actually is, not whether it is judged invalid by those with other beliefs.
If I went into a Protestant church and challenged their belief system, I would be out of line. This blogspot was set up to examine the New Age movement if the description line is correct. I was attempting to examine the infiltration of New Age ideas into Christianity, not to judge whether Christianity is valid. To this end I was looking for more of an academic analysis of the groups I asked about. I did my own research on the topic, but was looking for more information.
By the way, Jews refer to the collection of their sacred books as the Bible also.
An underlying message you send disturbs me. You put in the same camp anyone who rejects the view of Jesus you believe. Are you saying that claims to believe your views of Jesus are enough of a standard by which to judge others? You should look more carefully at who goes under that umbrella.
Dorothy
Would be interested in a recap of the service you attended in Redding, CA, oldmanoftheski.
Dorothy,
I can't vouch for this site since I just found it today (at first glance, for example, it does appear to have an anti-Catholic bias) but there is some very interesting information on it that may tie in with your questions:
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/willow_creek_.html
Rose
Hi Paul-
Loved your 8:40 AM comments.
Peace to you too brother.-Rudi
Dorothy,
As far as I am concerned, all the belief systems practiced by humanity can be boiled down to those that bear good fruit and those that don’t. In some cases there is no visible fruit at all. In others, the fruit appears to be very good on the outside, but when you open it up it you find a worm living inside.
While I am truly appalled by much of what I see happening in the Evangelical community, what with all the moral compromises and mixing of NA thought, I am also greatly encouraged to know there are those who are able to recognize deception (worms) and discern the times.
Granted, this is a fallen world, full of sin. We all fall short. I am unaware of perfection here on this earth, in any person, place, or thing. Reality misperception and errors of understanding creep in to every religion, every person, they are not the exclusive domain of those who have fallen for NA deceptions.
Christians fellowship with a living God. We know the scriptures have been fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled before our very eyes. Our prayers have been and continue to be answered, eyes continue to be opened, and people continue to be changed. Yet, my brothers and sisters in Christ don’t all sing the same song in perfect harmony because I (we, they) are not yet perfected. Though we see through our present glasses darkly, we travel towards the same narrow gate. We are commanded to encourage and challenge each other to complete the journey. If one falls down, we help him up. If one goes off the road into the ditch, we try to pull him out. If one rejects our help and insists on taking another path, we let them go.
Dorothy, you wrote, “If I went into a Protestant church and challenged their belief system, I would be out of line.” I guess that depends on the particular congregation you visited. In my congregation we would allow you to speak your mind, as long as you would take the time to listen respectfully to our response.
Jesus entered the Temple in Jerusalem on numerous occasions. He not only spoke words, but He did things that infuriated the Jewish leaders of the time. According to them, and I suppose, according to you, Jesus was way out of line.
It may be very difficult to guess or categorize which type will end up being spiritually seduced or deceived -- when we consider the following:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24 KJV)
Oldman, that's a story from the New Testament. It's part of your belief system. I have no reason to accept that it happened.
Groups from Christians to global warming advocates seems to feel it necessary to spread the good word. Anyone alert knows that New Agers feel the need to spread the word.
Please don't take it personally if I say I don't feel it necessary to join all of the groups claiming truth just in case they are right. I'm secure enough to not be emotionally intimidated.
If Christians who post here want to cheer each other on, I say go for it. It's a rather safe situation as there are no New Agers posting here so there would be no fights. I don't feel inclined to share the good news about Judaism with those who are already content with their religious beliefs. Judaism doesn't say those who aren't Jews are doomed.
Though it's a distraction from serious research about the New Age movement which is a major threat to the freedoms of all, if it makes you feel better, go for it and preach the word.
Dorothy
There's another category of sinners
that the Bible mentions which we don't
often talk about, perhaps for fear of
angry retribution. I'm referring to
both Rev. 2:9 and Rev. 3:9. "...those
who say they are Jews and are not."
Does anyone have any ideas what this
could be referring to, considering that:
"The testimony of Jesus is the spirit
of prophesy." (Rev.19:10)
..."there is neither Greek nor Jew.."
(Gal. 3:28 and Col. 3:11),
and that Jesus is the King of Kings,
Lord of Lords and also known as the
King of the Jews ?
I'm not sure I'm exactly clear on those
words of Jesus himself in Revelations.
Clearly the entire Old Testament shows
us over and over again the fact that,
though God loved Jacob Israel very
deeply, he is holy and he didn't forgive
the unrepentant and stubborn ones
who rejected his prophets, much less
those who refuse to acknowledge his
only begotten son.
After all, he can create children of
Abraham out of these rocks if he wants
to.
Still, I'm kind of naiive and gullable I
guess.
Paul
Paul, you are one of the ones I meant when I talked about those coming under the umbrella. You outed yourself a while back.
Dorothy
Paul, I'm no Bible scholar but I tend to think those verses may be a swipe at Replacement Theology...at least in part. This aspect of the church calls itself Israel when it is most definitley not. I'm thinking of people like Hanegraaff here.
Thank God I "outed myself".
But it was never a secret. I've
quoted old Testament and New
many times here to point out that
Jesus is Messiah.
Like:
"Hear oh heavens and give ear, Oh
earth; for the Lord has spoken, I
have reared and brought up children
and they have rebelled against me. The
ox knows its owner, and the ass its
masters crib; but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand."
( Isaiah 1:2-3 ) or,
And he said to me Go and tell this
people, You can hear indeed but
understand not; and you can see indeed
but do not perceive. For the heart of
this people is darkened and their ears are
heavy and their eyes closed, so that they
may not see with their eyes and hear
with their ears and understand with their
heart and be converted and be forgiven.
( Isaiah 6:10 )
_and I could go on and on but here's the
part where you misjudge me, Dorothy, and
lose all your self proclaimed academic dispassionate objectivity, and attack me
repeatedly on purely emotional and rather
vindictive grounds. I realize that were it not
for the stiff necked rebellion of the Jews,
I would never have had the chance to draw
nearer to God. That's right. It's your self
righteousness that opened the door for
a sinful fool like me. Furthermore, when
Lord does return for his bride, then all
the smoldering, teeth grinding people
who say "we are descended from Abraham",
just as they do in the recent ( yesterday )
letter from the Sanhedron to President
Bush, will suddenly realize that salvation
is not an intellectual exercise and is given
to the meek and poor in spirit of the
earth, and that Jesus is God among us
and without him we would, any of us,
die in our sins.
"And they shall look upon him whom they
pierced." ( Zech. 12:10 ) ( Psalms 22:16 )
Paul
Anon 2:30
I would prefer to discuss the details via email.
oldmanoftheski@gmail.com
Oldmanoftheski said:
“Yet, my brothers and sisters in Christ don’t all sing the same song in perfect harmony because I (we, they) are not yet perfected.” May I add: Phil. 3:21 AMB (Jesus) Who will transform and fashion anew the body of our humiliation to conform to and be like the body of His glory and majesty, by exerting that power which enables Him even to subject everything to Himself.
“As far as I am concerned, all the belief systems practiced by humanity can be boiled down to those that bear good fruit and those that don’t.” May I quote Charles C. Ryrie: “The cure for the unbeliever’s carnality is salvation; the cure for the believer’s is to grow in the Lord.”
“I am unaware of perfection here on this earth, in any person, place, or thing.” I’m confident that your absolute declaration does not include God’s perfect plan, the expression of His perfect love manifesting itself through those “DEAD to SELF, or perfect vignettes in art and creation. The perfection may not have a long linear life, but the same Sky lark that was perfection in the HIDING PLACE is to me perfection still; the love which Betsy so profoundly allow to live in Ravensbrook is to me perfection still.
“Reality misperception and errors of understanding creep in to every religion, every person, they are not the exclusive domain of those who have fallen for NA deceptions.” This is true, but I add that unlike Christianity (subject to your observation) other religions don’t have this creeping quality, but are pervaded with all those miscreant manifestations. “The carnal mind is enmity with God.”
Paul, I was totally blessed by your last entry. What clarity comes by knowing the ROOTS! Ultimately: “He is the vine and we are the branches.”
Setterman
Paul, you are an old line antisemite judging by some of your previous posts about Jews.
The New Testament was written at a time when new Christians were upset because all of the Jews didn't convert over to the brand new faith. Excuse me if I'm not bothered by what was written about Jews 2,000 years ago. I doubt if anyone is leaving Christianity because of what Mormons, Muslims or Moonies say about Christians.
Dorothy
HK-91 says...
Dorothy,
You stated in your 1:33 post:
"To do that we need to know what the belief system actually is, not whether it is judged invalid by those with other beliefs."
You may correct me if I am incorrect but a foundational purpose of this, Constance's, blog site and the comments posted is to address the subject of "truth".
Orthodox Jews, and Orthodox Christians share the common ground of an accepted possibility of an absolute in the area of Being (or knowledge), and in the area of morals. Therefore, if we accept the possibility of absolutes, though we might disagree as to what these are nevertheless we can reason together on the classical basis of antithesis. If something is true, the opposite is false. In morality, if one thing is right, it's opposite is wrong. Absolutes imply antithesis.
The Orthodox be he, she, Jew or Christian hold their respective Scriptures as Truth, as indeed the G_d breathed words. The Scriptures are the propositional communication of a Holy G_d to His created beings. The Scriptures His revelation of Himself to us.
The ultimate responsibility of each human being is to use their intellect to make a correct decision in responding to the Truth. In order to do this one must study the evidences. This would involve Epistemology, the theory of how we know, or how we can be sure that what we think we know of of the world about us is correct. It also involves Methodology, how we approach the question of truth and knowing. The formula, "A is A" and "If you have A it is not non-A," would be our common ground of classical logic.
"Belief systems" are the pursuit of truth, in contradistinction to the fact of truth. If the truth is unknowable then each "belief system" is as valid as the next. If the truth is knowable then an individual must make a judgment based on an analysis of the facts. If the truth requires, per such analysis, but one belief, one belief system, then logic demands judgment. Therefore to exclude incorrect or false beliefs, belief systems, as adversarial to the truth would follow to be the right thing to do.
To know the truth and not communicate it to others, whether they might agree or disagree, would be wrong, if indeed one understood that it is right to make such communication. When one considers the fact that untruth is being communicated, so as to nullify the communication of truth, one knowing the truth might consider its communication of paramount importance.
ALL New Age beliefs, belief systems are false. All of us here know that. The dilemma you propound:
"The only way is by looking at the results achieved by those following a belief system." is focused on the actions, however I might point out that "appearances" of either a persons behavior, or the "accomplishments" of their endeavors, can be deceptive, and not have any bearing on whether they know what truth is or what right and wrong are as they pertain to truth.
One must do an intellectually honest pursuit of the truth. When in all virtue and humbleness, one acquires such knowledge, logic will demand a stand be made, proclamation be made of it, and for the sake of truth that error be exposed even opposed.
If we believe the the right starting point to find truth is the reality of the existence of G_d, then we need to establish if He has revealed Himself, then we need to find the source of His revelation, then we must make a decision. My personal best rule of thumb is to always begin your theology with G_d and work your way to man. You have by your own admission been a researcher for many years, perhaps the answers to your questions are in your mental grasp and you might just need a fresh look at the information you have attained. Wishing you the best.
HK
HK, Overall the logical pattern you use is good. It is internally consistent. The problem is that it is not applicable to all searches for information it seems to me. I may be academically wrong as I'm not a lawyer or religious philosopher I'll admit, so here goes.
First I think it's rather broad to say that this blog is a search for truth. If you said it was a search for truthful information about the New Age movement, I would agree however.
They say a good academic is one who knows more and more about less and less. That's because of the complexity of the world of information. The New Age movement is extremely complex. The second edition of the Whole Again Research Guide, supposedly the best guide to networking the New Age movement, had 3,000 listings in the late '80s. And this was only the pop end of the movement. It didn't take into account the history of the movement, individuals involved, or even academic research which was just starting at that time. It didn't take into account the political end of the movement. To say that ALL information connected with the NA movement is false is a huge generalization that can't be supported. (http://www.wholeagain.com/home.html or http://tinyurl.com/5vrh88 -- slimmed down version)
We who are monotheists have faith in our particular belief system because each of us have enough evidence to convince ourselves of the correctness of the belief. That evidence might be personal, emotional, or rational because we have studied the history of the particular belief system. Even if we each were geniuses and were able to put the details into some sort of chart, what convinces one person would not necessarily convince another. Ultimately it all rests on faith. All of the above rests on the ability to choose what we have faith in. Where coersion of any type is involved, no matter what is claimed, there can be no faith or search for ultimate answers in science or religion. Coersion makes for dead ends.
I will say again I believe that we need to see to what ends a belief system leads, particularly when two systems that are similar are being compared. Many people, including Christians, don't see any difference between an independent Christian church and a Rick Warren groupie church. Telling them that the RW one is New Age and bad just makes it seem as if someone is badmouthing competition. If one can take the time to show the end results, the argument is better done.
Socratic speeches sound good to the one talking because to the speaker they make the case. However not everyone is as wowed as those to whom Socrates spoke.
On the other hand I am impressed by the fact that you care enough about Christianity to make a case for it.
Dorothy
Dorothy, long ago I stopped trying to twist your arm about Christianity; it wasn’t a secret that you did not believe that Jesus Christ is who “we” believe, nay, are convinced He is The Very Son of God. The failure of Christians may have clouded you eyes, but that will not work to excuse you when the scriptures say that if they did not believe the testimony of Moses concerning the Christ. The notion of the last days and who are the anti-Christs, is found in the New Testament. You seem to dismiss the New, but the Old, in every way, looks toward the New.
I will not be blessed or encouraged, nor do I want a reply from you. If you stay your course, you’ll be a smart researcher in hell.
What also bothers me is when Johnny removed your posting on his site that had your admission to not being a Christian; “Now you see it, now you don’t.”
May be this entry will be disallowed.
Setterman
How objective is it of someone
to play the antisemite card ?
You've lashed out at me again
and it hurts.
Am I required to believe that
everyone who calls himself a Jew
is good and above reproach ?
How could I when Jews are all over
the intellectual map as are Arabs and
Africans ?
Are the Massianic Jews whom you
would obviously disdain all wrong ?
Is Jacob Moriel all wrong ?
My wife is Jewish and I love her.
We have problems in our relationship
but neither she nor her family, whom
I also love have ever sunken to calling
me an antisemite, just as they've never
called me a womanizer or a drunk or
even a fool, because I'm none of those
things.
So why does a self proclaimed
academic who doesn't know me at all
take such a cheap shot at me ?
Paul
HK says...
Dorothy,
I care about you,and Truth, that is why I made my "case".
HK
In 1982 I bought a copy of Constance Cumbey's book, "The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow." I was impressed by the fact that she was a Christian attorney who had done extensive research into what appeared to be the coming apostasy, Anti-Christ movement in the world. Her writings drew up distinct parallels between what New Agers (like Benjamin Creme & Marilyn Ferguson) were teaching vs.what Christians were taught in the Bible. Constance was sending out a message of warning to all of us who had eyes to see and ears to hear.
While the New Age Movement is much too complex to summarize, I think we can all agree that it is a worldwide "network of networks" made up of various levels or "rungs on the ladder" of the hierarchy. At the lower rungs, are the good, well intentioned "innocents" with no hidden agenda. At the highest "levels" are those with a very clear agenda . . . an EVIL one with the intention to "spiritually seduce" and deceive us and, ultimately, destroy our immortal souls. This NAM has managed to infiltrate all religions (Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish) . . . and both political parties (Conservative and Liberal).
Protestants have to be careful not to move too far to the "right" (toward a godless nazi type of ideology); and Catholics and Jews have to be careful not to move too far to the "left" (toward a godless Communist type of ideology). All three religions need to remain traditionally "centered" to keep this from happening.
On the political scene, this country is split right down the middle. We are highly suspicious that "what we are seeing is NOT what we are getting." All three presidential candidates could, in fact, be merely "puppets" on the New World Order "stage" . . . pawns in their chess game. We feel that we are being manipulated and we feel angry and frustrated with the economy, the War in Iraq, etc. Does anyone out there CARE about us???
Today, this message board has provided an "oasis" in a troubled world, a support system whereby we can all share the latest information and "compare notes."
Unfortunately, because we all come from various religious backgrounds, we are not "all on the same page" in our approach and outlook. As a result, pride and ego tend to get in the way and cause conflict. The key is to respect our various backgrounds and realize that the more one of us "proselytizes" -- the more the other person resists. Each one of us believes that we are right and the other person is wrong . . . and boy, do we ever have the documentation to back us up!!!
Maybe we need to be reminded that at the END, we will all become "one flock and one shepherd." So, doesn't it only make sense that we should all try to get along NOW? Because, bottom line . . . God loves us ALL.
We need to be reminded that the "US" vs. "THEM" should be all of us who have been made aware of this New Age Movemnet vs SATAN himself.
We also need to be reminded that Satan enjoys seeing any conflict within the "US" side.
May God bless us all . . . and have mercy on us and heal us of our weaknesses.
Setterman 9:18,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. As you surmised, I was writing about the fallen world and our human limitations. Agreed, wherever God touches us, or our world, we find perfection. Salvation (love) comes from the Lord.
old man, paul, setterman
get on your knees & pray.
dorothy, i am sorry for this example of christianity.
Thanks to the last two anonymous writers. I agree with your conclusions. The NA movement with its lack of belief in stated morals, its current origins in the beliefs of occult organizations and the resulting the manipulative tactics should be considered the enemy of all who see the how wonderful all life is and how much each and every person contributes or can contribute to making the world a better place. Freedom of thought with the guidance of religion is necessary for that to take place.
Obvious or not to all, NA type thinking seems to have led to a dangerous form of dictatorship where it has taken control of the thoughts of the public. More and more chains are put on the public so that egomaniacs who do not have any thought of self-control based on a deeper understanding of monotheism can force their goals on a controlled public. As the plans they want to implement seem to slip further away, their answer is always to put more chains on the public they try to control.
Since others have used Christian terminology here, I feel free to say that a rabbi has written that evil starts small and is fed by people who contribute to it until it explodes (like a balloon that grows larger and larger until it cannot sustain itself any longer). When it breaks after causing mass chaos, things go back to normal for a while.
These days on a worldwide basis, people no longer take religion seriously and immoral behavior has become the norm. Only among Jews and Christians who take their religion seriously enough to understand its deeper significance do I see efforts to warn about the NA movement.
Over at Free Republic they carried an article about Islam. Here I quote:
"Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat.
Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system. Islam has Religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components. Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called "religious rights." When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to "the reasonable" Muslim demands for their "religious rights," they also get the other components under the table. "
Substitute New Age for Islam and you've got the picture.
http://www.wholeagain.com/newagefaq.html
Those researching the New Age on behalf of Christianity might want to check out the allegation found at the above site. End times beliefs can be a useful NA tool. It's up to Christians to watch this move so that they aren't used to trick unsuspecting Christians.
The more we work together to let the hot air out of their balloon, the better we will be in the long run.
Dorothy
That was a thanks to anonymous 8:57and 9:06.
Dorothy
Anon. 9:06
That's just about the most
wishy-washy lukewarm statement
I've ever read in here.
So all we are trying to do is BE AWARE
of all this stuff and awareness is the
answer ?
Don't be a fool. There's a war going
on and awareness isn't going to help
very much all by itself.
Is that all this is ?
I really thought this place was a place
with some answers that can help.
Can someone name an intellectual
somewhere in history who ever made
a real difference in the world that
mattered ? Intellectuals are generally
arrogant critics who only want to
play the "my research is better than
yours" game. Intellectuals are fairly
useless people really. They stay in
school way past the point where
school makes them any more effective.
Are you informed enough yet ?
Or are you ever learning but never
coming to a knowledge of the truth ?
Hubris thy name is Dorothy.
You can always tell when someone has
nothing on you to rationally criticize
but they hate you anyway;
they whip out slanderous lies like
you hate Jews or Blacks or whatever.
I hate lies.
I came here because of Mrs. Cumby
and the useful information in her book
which I never got the impression was
meant to be some intellectual tour
de force but rather a warning from
a Christian woman.
It seems to me that Judge Dorothy
has highjacked the blog.
So what am I now, a Nazi ?
Paul
Constance:
We need some words of wisdom from you . . . please!!!
Constance:
We need some words of wisdom from you . . . please!!!
Hello,
1. I completely understand the desire stated above for Constance to come and mediate the dispute, or at least offer some wisdom that might bring a new perspective leading to some peace. In recent days, however, she has stated that she herself has been under attack and has asked for our prayers. She's also talked recently on the show of some of the extremely painful and unprovoked attacks she has experienced over the years at the hands of former colleagues she valued and trusted--she explained that she gave a great deal of thought before revealing this information, and did not reveal lightly--and this was apparent in the tone of her voice.
It is with this in mind that I think we might consider that maybe Constance, at this point, does not have the energy dive into this dispute. She may have bigger fish to fry--and I think that to see fighting going on between folks at this blog must be somewhat painful to her, since this virtual community and many of the people in it are for her clearly a touchstone of good will, sanity, and community.
2. One of the main problems here is that a lot of the regulars are Protestant Christians who tend to get carried away from time to time and forget that Constance's blog is not an extention of Fulfilled Prophecy. -- FP has a statement of Faith posted at their site (I can't find the link to it at the moment--but it's in there somewhere) which they ask you to agree to before you post. (Because I cannot in good conscience agree to all in the statement, out of respect for the site members I refrain from posting at FP). Constance, however, has no such statement--her forum is open to all readers.
There is at least one Catholic semi-regular and one Jewish regular. Respect for both the good will and the intelligence of faithful Protestants, Catholics, and Jews should be a guiding principle behind all postings here. Some degree of conflict is inevitable, but should never degenerate into telling a Jew she is going to hell if she doesn't accept Jesus Christ, as it did last week. This has gone beyond the point of ridiculous. I'm not suggesting any of you should compromise or hide their beliefs--rather, I'm suggesting that maybe this forum is not the best place for Evangelical Protestant "witnessing" in the militant way it tends to go on here.
3. I'm not happy with the tone of some of Dorothy's posts to Paul, but for various reasons thought it was best not to intervene. One reason is that Dorothy has a lot of credibility with me--because of her years of experience, her loyalty to Constance, and the fact that it must be frustrating if not sometimes painful to be a believing Jew surrounded with a crew of Protestants like we have here with the way discussions sometimes unfold. I'm a Catholic and sometimes I can barely stomach some of the condescension and "Praise the Lord" back-slapping that goes on--yet what I experience must be mild compared to how a faithful Jew must feel. So Paul--instead of focusing entirely on your own hurt, however justified, I would suggest maybe look at your own statements and ask Dorothy what you have done or said that might have hurt her.
4. My last concrete suggestion is that some of the Protestant regulars exchange email addresses and consider doing at least some of their fellowshipping offline, or over at FP. I suggest this as a voluntary move, not as a rule that should be imposed from outside.
Let's remember to keep Constance in our prayers, like she has asked.
Rose
Rose said:
“One of the main problems here is that a lot of the regulars are Protestant Christians. . .” This is just barely taken out of context, but there is a message here. As for me and my family our reality, including our world view that is in enmity with the New Age, is founded on Christ Jesus and the Holy Bible, which Jesus testified to being unbreakable, everlasting truth. The scripture is my authority, and without that conviction, no, without that reality, I have no grounds to resist the juggarnaught of the New Age movement; if others do, I’m glad for it; their motives are their own.
However, it seems as my past postings of restraint, in light of this open, all comers welcome site is either unknown or not acknowledged, and the door has been opened by Dorothy herself: “On the other hand I am impressed by the fact that you care enough about Christianity to make a case for it.” Thus I don’t see why my having addressed evidence already having been brought forward as a problem.
As proof to allay your protest concerning: “If you stay your course, you’ll be a smart researcher in hell.” I offer you the verse by the Apostle Paul: “Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The love of God is rooted in Christ; outside of Him is to be outside of God’s protection. I’m not making this up. It is because I “love” Dorothy that I warn her. I told my children to stay out of the street, because I love them. I suggest you look up the number of times the Bible Commands us to warn; I have failed in this area; yesterday I did not sin and fail again.
I have given my e-mail address before, and was not, nor am I today opposed to all who are interested, to e-mail me.
Setterman
God bless you brightrose 4:46 well said!
Rose,
I hear you.
We are told to be as wise as serpents
and as harmless as doves. That's the
very fine line that I've been trying to
walk.
The devil has many titles; one of
them is the "accuser of the brethren."
You said I should consider what I
might have said which might have
offended Dorothy. I have. I've wracked
my brain trying to figure out what it
might have been that I said but I
can't find it. There's nothing there.
That's why I got flustered. No one has
ever slandered me before and tried
to portray me like she did. The reason
is simple. I don't harbor any hatred for
her race or any other. I take people
one at a time and try to ignore the
very superficial facts of race and skin
tone, etc.
This is cyber space. If justice is indeed
blind then justice must like cyber space.
We only have words here, not physical
intimidation of glaring looks, etc
I like that. I like the fact that Jesus
came into the world at a time before
photography. He never sat for a
portrait and all the thousands of
Jesus paintings are guesses and
probably biased guesses at that.
So we see through a glass darkly.
The forces of darkness are more
powerful today than ever. When they
arrested Jesus on trumped up charges
he told Peter to put up his sword. He
didn't tell Peter to shut up don't say
anything. He said to Judas and those
Sanhedron thugs: "This is your hour,
and the power of darkness."
The battle is a battle of
words, and a battle of the spirit.
Words are very powerful. Words are
more powerful than bullets. Jesus is
the Word of God.
In contact sports men usually protect
their most vulnerable areas with
certain "armor", This is to protect
against what's called a "low blow",
or a "cheap shot".
The only way to protect ones self
from cheap shots in the war of
words is with Truth. ( Eph. 6 )
Paul
I would like to address two persons here . . .
Rose:
Thank you so very much for sharing YOUR "words of wisdom." Also, Constance is definitely in my prayers.
The "key" here is the word RESPECT for all who post on this board . . . and are fighting a war against the coming Anti-Christ..
As a Catholic and a CHRISTIAN, I have witnessed what I see as a "militant evangelical" piling on toward any posters who are not Protestant Christians.
Setterman:
Regarding your words to Rose: “If you stay your course, you'll be a smart researcher in hell.”???
Maybe you need to be reminded that, more than 2,000 years ago, God our Heavenly Father in Heaven made the decision that His only Son, Jesus Christ would be born on the earth a Jew.
And before Jesus was crucified, He created the Catholic Church and made Peter His first Pope when He said the following words:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18 KJV)
Only God (not you, not me, not anyone else) will pass judgement on each and every one of the faithful, believing Protestants, Catholics and Jews of this world . . . when they cross over into the next world.
This MILITANT proselytizing has got to STOP. Only false pride and arrogance could possibly motivate a person to insist that he/she KNOWS what GOD's final decision is going to be on Judgement Day.
If God "reads" what is in a person's HEART (as well as their soul) . . . then I would suggest that you, Mr. Setterman, might look inward at your own heart and your very "UN-Christian" like attitude toward others.
Who's piling on now ?
Setterman didn't say a word about race.
And his comment was applicable to any
and all.
If you don't believe that the rejection
of Jesus Christ is a ticket to hell, then you
haven't been reading the Bible.
Paul
Paul:
MY bible says that Jesus has commanded ALL of us to:
"Love thy neighbor as thyself."
"Judge not lest ye be judged."
Maybe YOU need to go back and read the bible again!!!
Paul said: "If you don't believe that the rejection of Jesus Christ is a ticket to hell, then you
haven't been reading the Bible."
Are you actually saying that you believe that Catholics have "rejected" Jesus Christ??? If so, you have not only committed the sin of "slander," but you have really gone off the deep end.
I think it's time for this message board to get BACK to what it was intended for . . . sharing information about the New Age Movement and the coming Anti-Christ on the world scene . . . not "my church can beat up your church."
OK, fellow Constance Cumbey fans???
My prayer for Constance . . .
God, our Heavenly Father, we are asking you today to please reach out to your humble servant, Constance Cumbey in her "hour of need" as she is under attack from the dark, evil forces of Hell.
If it is your will, Heavenly Father, please grant her strength, courage and peace to allow her to ontinue this vocational ministry to encourage others to fight this spiritual war against the Anti-Christ.
In Jesus' name -- AMEN.
Catholics ?
Did I say anything about Catholics?
Is someone scrambling these messages?
Paul
Who do the New Agers hate?
Isn't it the evangelical, fundamental
Protestants who never get invited
to the All One , World Church
gatherings ? Moslems , Jews, and
Catholic Cardinals all dressed in
red are there. Just no Protestants
unless the go out of their way to
denounce the stated principles of
the Apostles Creed for instance.
Isn't it a stated principle of the
New Age Course In Miracles that
fundamentalist Protestants are
THE problem ?
Yes it is.
In fact everyone can pretend to love
you as long as you don't quote the
Bible and don't shout Hallelujah
the way the Psalms command us
to do. Don't make a joyful noise
whatever you do.
I grew up Catholic. I know that there
are many many sincere Catholics who
love the Lord. It's the leadership of
the Catholic Church that I rejected.
I think, with Jacob Prasch, an evangelist
to Jews, that instead of a parade permit
and a police escort, the Pope should
have been handcuffed and arrested
at the airport. He and the two previous
popes knew all about the pedophilia
that was rampant in the ranks of
his denomination. It wasn't just an
aberration. It was a culture of filth.
Do you think this former unrepentant
Nazi Youth is Peters' successor ?
Where's the love and compassion for all
the ruined lives of children ?
Where's the compassion and love for
the ruined families ?
God is HOLY first, then loving.
John the Baptist came just in front
of Jesus in time. He was the announcer
of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth and
his message was REPENT. Then you'll be
ready for Gods love and forgiveness.
The head of most Protestant denominations
is Jesus the High Priest. Protestantism is decentralised. It has hierarchy but no man
is a "priest" that speaks to God for us.
Protestantism doesn't have a concept of
excommunication, which creates a fear
too strong to ever think of leaving. Thus
Roman Catholics are not free to leave.
Who made that junk up ?
Oh there's no shortage of corruption in
the Protestant ranks either but at least
I can say that without fear of being
sent to hell by some guy in a red
Dagon outfit.
I wish I could set some prisoners free.
Paul
Rose, I really appreciate that you posted your opinion when there was so much opposition. That's the attitude that is needed to fight the NA movement. You analyzed the arguments, took a stand, and posted. That you saw what I saw was a bonus. That's using freedom of speech.
Sometimes visual images come to mind when I try to analyze what is happening. What came to my mind about this discussion is people who think alike grouping themselves under a tarp, deciding not to face what is occuring but happy that those under the tarp think as they do.
I'm Jewish. You are Catholic. We both are targets of some very large manipulative movements who want what we believe to disappear. Would they use wishywashy Protestants to make it happen? Well, they did in the past.
The history of the battle shows that some people survived by just laying low, not making waves or fighting. My answer to that is life is short, material things fade.
Soldiers, even now in Iraq, openly give the possibility of ending their lives away for an ideal. Should we hide on the internet doing even less?
I know what the battle is about. For a long time I supressed my thoughts so as not to offend others because I believed they want to fight New Age when in reality they just want to go under the tarp with people who think as they do.
Nothing is life is simple however. My son plays the trumpet. He was asked to play in the 10th anniversary program at St. Pat's church in Momence, IL. He runs WPAL, a community cable station as a volunteer and decided to tape the program in Momence. I was there. It was an extraordinarily moving Christian program. I've watched the DVD many times and am emotionally moved each time. I'm not about to convert, but I do respond to the emotional appeal. The church with's its imposing organ is classically beautiful, the music was professional. Momence is a small town, and the people in the pews are ordinary good people. That all of this came together reached me. If there is anyone in the Monee, Peotone, Beecher area who reads this blog, you can see the program on Channel 4.
If I could present the emotional appeal of the program with the hard arguments against New Age, it would be a winner.
Dorothy
Paul, you are a pain in the neck who I will probably disagree with until this blogspot ends.
With your last commentary you highlight a problem that affects all of the religious groups. People who are part of any organization don't want to make it look bad in the eyes of the public so they say nothing, hoping the problems can be handled internally.
Religious establishments are more organizations than sources of ethics as people involved depend on them to make a living.
There were a lot of Catholics who made waves in organizations to bring the problem to the surface. It didn't just happen. They believed in the Catholic faith and acted on their beliefs.
What had happened is that the homosexual community had infiltrated the Catholic church and the homosexual lobby acts as a somewhat secret organization. My guess is that both priests and lay people had no clue as to the extent of the lobby, and saw individual problems as such rather than as part of a much larger operation.
Have you read Rueda's book? Probably not as few others have. That's the problem. We think people who have professional positions know what we have learned, but I've learned that unless we communicate what we know to them, the problems don't go away.
We may worry that we sound foolish as we convey our concerns, but at this point we are not laying our lives on the line. Sure, we will be ignored by many politicians, but if they know that a lot of us are concerned, they will notice that a movement is taking place. Just as if Catholics who learned about the abuse spoke out even before organizations were formed.
Keep talking Paul. Even if I think you are a problem I don't want to shut you up.
Dorothy
What could possibly be the point
in studying and trying to expose
an Antichrist but not believing in
a Christ ?
Paul
Dorothy,
Thanks for your positive feedback. Being an impulsive, emotional, and opinionated individual by temperment, I have been fortunate to learn over the last several years the supreme value of tempering these reactions with reason. Most of this learning has come from watching and imitating other highly sensitive people who know how to do this well--Constance is a great role model to me in this regard.
Thanks for the reminder about Fr. Rueda's book -- I haven't read it but I know of his work.
I spend part of every Sunday reading the London Sunday Times, and found this very short but ominous little gem titled "Religion is the New Social Evil" tucked away in its pages this morning:
http://tinyurl.com/62c6jj
This article will be of great interest to all readers of this blog. We are all being "groomed."
The church program you describe sounds wonderful. I actually have some ties to Momence -- great grandparents emigrated from Italy at the turn of the century to work in the coal mines of Southern Illinois--some of there children later settled in and around Momence.
Rose
Paul asks, "What could possibly be the point in studying and trying to expose an Antichrist but not believing in a Christ?"
Possibly because the Anti-Christ plans to "eliminate" all members of every traditional religion (Protestants, Catholics, Jews and Muslims, etc.) . . . if they refuse to renounce "the old way," refuse to "awaken" and cross over into the "paradigm shift" and bow down to only him.
Paul:
As a Catholic, I have been more outraged over the clergy sexual abuse scandal than non-Catholics. I was especislly outrged when priests were moved from one parish to another and nothing was done.
Even though 97% of Catholic priests are good, holy, devout men of God . . . just having 3% worth of "rotten apples" is even ONE priest too many!!!
I was so thankful to God that our Pope addressed this problem four times this week during his trip to America . . . and met with some of the victims at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York.
We have a long way to go to heal from this terrible STAIN om our church . . . but efforts are being made to strive thst this never happens again.
Much of the problem began in the 1960s-1970s when they allowed gay men to enter the priesthood. It was naive and unrealistic to imagine that a gay man would be able to adjust to taking a vow of celibacy.
It is my understanding, from talkng to experts, that this was more a problem of homosexuality, rather than pedophilia . . . as it mostly involved young boys and pedophiles are not usually "gender specific."
Either way . . . no defense and no excuses!!!
Paul:
Actually, we are "free" to leave the Cstholic Church any time we want, but we CHOOSE to stay.
And no man in any "red outfit" has the POWER to send us anywhere --only our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (who is our ONLY judge).
Nice try though.
LOL
Rose, your find is more valuable than you might have thought is was. I like reading comments because they are like a finger in the wind to show what the general public believes. So I read the comments following the article.
Someone gave a link to the actual research. Religion is number 9 on the list of problems according to the public.
http://www.socialevils.org.uk/documents/social-evils-report.pdf
How telling it is that the news should cover the comments about religion, ignoring the first eight concerns. The UK is just a few years ahead of us in NA influence.
We are in a real battle for our freedoms. Who is in it with the few of us?
Dorothy
You want to know what I think about the antichrist theory? I think people tend to use it to avoid taking personal action. If people are told it's the Antichrist running things, it's too big to fight, so they just fold.
Dorothy
Dorothy:
Earlier in this blog, you had mentioned Rick Warren.
All I know is that, a couple of years ago, Rick Warren was planning to train a billion people to be effective leaders "like Jesus." The only problem is that he teamed up with Ken Blanchard, a New Age mystic who practices mantra meditation, yoga, and "borrows" from Buddhism.
When he wrote, "The Purpose-Driven Life" . . . he failed to let the rest of us know that HIS purpose is.
To Rose, and every “anonymous”, unsigned, commenter vying for the position of
Peace Mediator : I hear in your condescending remarks, the echoes of those voices speaking for the Alliance of Civilizations. As stated above in your various comments: You, “completely understand.” You desire to “bring peace to our virtual community.” You have witnessed, “what I see as a ‘militant evangelical’ piling on toward any posters who are not Protestant Christians.” Included also, “MILITANT proselytizing has got to STOP.”
Whether or not you realize it, you have taken on the position, and are using the very words designed to silence the same unwanted voices, as that of high level proponents of The Alliance of Civilizations. To what end?
“One is, it appears, allowed to have a religion in the “New World Order,” a/k/a “Alliance of Civilizations,” a/k/a “global governance.” One is not, however, allowed to believe it true. Nor is one allowed to tell others it is true. If somebody believes that “Maitreya is the Christ,” Rev. Moon is “the Lord of the Second Advent,” or Sai Baba is God, they may tell you their religion is true. That is called “dialogue.” If a Christian dares to suggest Jesus is the only way, that is called “proselytizing.”
http://www.newswithviews.com/Cumbey/constance.htm
Yes, those of us who comment here are clearly congregating under more than one umbrella. I say, let it rain. -Rudi
Absolutely brilliant use of the Hegelian Dialectic process in this comments section Dorothy. I know I’m not the only reader who has recognized the technique. Don’t bother responding with feigned ignorance. I wouldn’t believe you.
Doesn't look like some of us are ready for the coming paradigm shift.
Oh please Rudi, playing the victim card is not going to work. Nobody is stopping anyone from posting. I've been posting on this blogspot for years and never said anything about the numerous posts saying the Jesus way is the only way. You run into a tiny bit of opposition and act as if the sky is falling. It seems to me you have never taken a stand at a school board meeting, a library board meeting or stood in front of an abortion clinic. Have you stood up in an audience where you know everyone there is not in sync with your comments? I have, and it's not easy.
This battle is not just about posting comments that everyone agrees with.
Dorothy
Rudi -- FYI:
I am a Catholic Christian (who chooses to post as "Anonymous"),
who used the word “proselytizing”
in my comments earlier today.
So, while you insist on wallowing in paranoia, accusing Dorothy of her "brilliant use of the Hegelian Dialectic," maybe you and others need to stop long enough to think that maybe -- just possibly -- there are a FEW people here who are just FED UP with being judged and told (by certain individuals) what is going to happen to their immortal souls!!!
Whether or not you realize it, you have taken on the position, and are using the very words designed to silence the same unwanted voices, as that of high level proponents of The Alliance of Civilizations. To what end?
Rudi,
There is an oceanic difference between being prosecuted criminally under Hate Crime or Equality laws for "declaring that Jesus is the Only Way", and being reminded that this particular forum is not a forum set up exclusively, or even mainly, for Protestants.
You all get so much positive affirmation from each other, that a few folks here are getting lost in the shuffle. I felt it was important to at least give the Protestants a chance to think about the effect some of these remarks are having on those with different theologies. I never told you, or anyone, to stop posting -- read my post again--rather I made a few practical suggestions that might help bring some more balance back into the forum--something that has been lacking lately.
The bottom line is, HOW you (not meaning you personally, but all of us) say things does effect other people. If folks here are okay with folks here telling a faithful Jew she is going to hell--if this is the kind of forum you folks want--then there is nothing I, or anyone can say, to change your mind. In good conscience though, I felt obliged to try.
Did you or Paul or Setterman even stop and take on board what I said about Constance--the main reason for jumping in and trying to mediate this dispute (even though I knew I would get lashed instead of merely tolerated and largely ignored as has been the state of affairs since the anti-Catholic eruption a few months ago)?
Rose
Anon 11:54 -- can you give yourself a nickname? It just makes the discussion thread so much easier to read!
Thanks,
Rose
I think Mrs Cumby should be proud.
Her work and her research have
apparently deemed her worthy of
the divisive tactics of agents of
provocation; Fifth-Columnists.
It is becoming apparent to me that
some of these commentors are
directly from the very NWO that
Constance has exposed. Being
sniveling little liars and shifty
little wedge drivers is their
signature. I don't know exactly
who they are but I believe they
come in here.
Dorothy, first you seem to hate
my guts and then you sort of
pat me on the back and say you
don't want me to stop talking.
Yours posts read like a pop
psychology self-help book most
of the time. Very New Age.
What's the deal ?
And why do you keep talking about
this website like it will soon be
a thing of the past ?
You want to talk endlessly about
the NA but without any ammunition
to fight it.
I don't think you're a Jew. I think
you're an athieist with some claim
to Jewish blood.
Define anti-semite.
What about someone who has
one sixteenth Jewish blood ?
What if I have one sixty-fourth
Jewish blood ? Am I in ?
Abraham was favored by God
because of his FAITH, not his
ethnicity.
Everything changes when Dorothy
is the moderator. The spirit of
this blog is a polar opposite when
it's other than Constance.
Paul
"Anon 11:54 -- can you give yourself a nickname? It just makes the discussion thread so much easier to read!
Thanks,
Rose"
(1:24 AM)
Sure, Rose. I do realize that there are quite a few who post as "Anonymous" and I'm sure that this does get confusing.
I'll just sign my initials from now on at the end of my comments.
--RL
Paul, the more you post the more you show your character.
You are an example of how people shouldn't behave in public. Do you really think you are important enough to be hated?
All hell breaks loose when someone criticizes Islam. It's what the commentary at the top of this thread is about. Muslims who get all enraged don't see themselves as others see them.
And so it is with Christians and Jews who get all enraged when criticized. It's that kind of behavior that leads others to justify the AOC agenda, that say oh yes, it is needed to quiet down the exciteable, when in fact no AOC is needed as almost all mature individuals can quietly discuss disagreements.
Dorothy
I've never heard the term
"antichrist theory".
The Biblical fact of the
rise of the "Son of Perdition"
aka "The Little Horn" aka the
"Beast that rises up out of
the sea",among other names
is not a theory.
Nor can anyone stand against him
whether they are brave or not.
The reaction to this information
should not be to give up, though.
We watch and we pray and we
warn any one who will listen,
that we will be delivered from this
Beast by the only one who can.
Jesus the Christ is given all power
from his father, Jehovah.
Dorothy, he loves you.
Paul
Sure, Rose. I do realize that there are quite a few who post as "Anonymous" and I'm sure that this does get confusing.
I'll just sign my initials from now on at the end of my comments.
--RL
Hi RL,
Glad to see you around.
Rose
There are two sides to this discussion, those who believe in the Bible which is God's breathed word and 100% accurate or you don't.
Any doubts, you doubt God therefore are not a true believer. God said it or he didn't. What some thought were mistakes have been proven dead on and right, the Bible is accurate period no matter what.
'Judge not' means don't be a hypocrite, gossip, harm others with our words etc. We are to judge just like Jesus does and did while he was here on earth how else would we know who not to be friends with, where to go or not go need I go on? ARGH.
We are also to know someone by "their fruit" lemon trees don't produce strawberries and bad people belong in jail, A Connie?
The Bible says we are to know the times, keep looking up and this means to keep thinking about Jesus return which in turn means an interest in End Times which we are/were discussing.
Believers don't live under a big tent, the road is narrow and few venture down it. It takes guts to stand up and be counted and the cost is going higher.
As an aside stock up on food there COULD BE a truckers strike this weekend making things worse preparing the bottom feeders to bend over to the government when it's needed. I support the truckers! But food for the past 20 years has been "mismanaged", well duh.
You can believe anything you want it's your eternity.
Kay Fox or kck
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