Between April 24, 1915 and 1917 the genocide occurred that later made Hitler literally think he could get away with mass murder. That was the deportation and mass slaughter of between 800,000 to 1.5 million minority Armenians living within Turkish borders.
To this day, the Turkish government refuses take responsibility for nor even recognize the event known variously as "The Armenian Genocide" and/or "The Armenian Holocaust."
The United Nations sponsored ALLIANCE OF CIVIIZATIONS organized in 2005 was allegedly organized by Turkish Prime Minister Recip Tayyip Erdogan and the then Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero. It was that same co-sponsor Erdogan who not that long after taking steps to promote tolerance and understanding then made threats and instituted actions to deport even more Armenians from Turkey. He did this in response to international efforts to recognize the event as the genocidal one it was. Interestingly, in 2015 he made statements acknowledging that something happened, but still minimized Turkish national responsibility for it.
I have done radio programs on this event in the past. I've done two progams over the past 9 years with Virginia Haroutunian, the author of the book ORPHAN IN THE SANDS. It relates the pain reaching down multi-generationally from the Turkish slaughter of the innocents event.
I have another well informed historian of that event with me in the morning on TMERadio.com. That will be Edward Haroutunian. He is also a practicing attorney and has served for many years as the Wayne County, Michigan Republican Party Chairman. He can articulately answer your questions about that event.
The Armenians were an ancient Christian community. As we now live in the age of ISIS terror and increasing psychological terror to American Christians over Biblical traditional values, it is instructive to know the impact of that past event that occurred interestingly at a time when the world was being primed to accept a Maitreyan "New Christ" version in the form of Jiddhu Krishnamurti. Historical precedent has many lessons for us in a newer era of persecution and even martyrdom.
Join us in the morning at TMERadio.com to become part of the conversation!
Stay tuned!
CONSTANCE
If I understand this correctly, the genocide was heavily sanctioned that of the Armenian Apostolic Church with no mention of genocide in the Armenian Catholic Church.
ReplyDeleteThe Armenian Apostolic Church was not in communion with Rome at that time. The Armenian Catholic Church was subservient to Rome.
This question is specifically for Susanna at the request of another of my readers who didn't want to post online.
ReplyDeleteShe reports that at her Catholic service last Sunday, to her shock and dismay, a young and seemingly orthodox Roman Catholic priest told his congregation (he was an associate priest, not the pastor) that they were all God! He named several in the rows by name and said that they were also God, but also jokingly added that "however, I won't genuflect to Sally."
It appeared to my reporter that the young, fairly new priest was making a statement that "Jesus took on our humanity so he could give us his Divinity."
The person said she questioned the priest after the service and the priest became quite angry with her -- he said that either Peter or Jesus (priest couldn't recall which in her reported conversation) said "ye are gods."
My response to her is that this was a statement in the gospels by Jesus to harassing Pharisee critics and that he was quoting the 81st Psalm which obviously is a sarcastic diatribe against those believing themselvesl to be gods (pretenders to God's throne) and that it needed to be read in context with other Old Testament passages that "all the gods except the True God, the God who created Heaven and Earth will perish." Also, as I recall, Isaiah 42:8 that says that God is the Lord and he will not share his glory with another neither his praise with graven images."
My reporter said she said to the priest that she considered what he said to be the oldest heresy and that he then said to her, "then we are all heretics."
She said the priest railed angrily at her that others knew much more than her and that she should stop "ranting" on the subject."
Susanna, my reporter has also been an accurate observer to the best of my present knowledge. What should I tell her from your Catholic perspective? Is the young priest who appeared fine on other topics off base?
She is looking forward to hearing what you can tell her and where she should go with this. She emailed her pastor, but so far has not heard back from him although she is a generous financial contributor to her parish.
Constance
Many, many thanks to the alert poster who sent me this link on my last post -- I had an extremely full week last week with limited time to go comprehensively read coments:
ReplyDeletehttp://library.fes.de/pdf-files/bueros/london/12373.pdf
Mary Kaldor and Javier Solana were CONVENORS of this conference that made a comprehensive report on European Security. Mary Kaldor of the London School of Economics has always been a heavy player with Javier Solana. When he was at the peak of his EU power she was always behind the scene assisting him with his "Cabinet" and position papers. Evidently they are still a team on those matters.
Constance
I'm not sure what the following means that Google attached to my page or what the significance of the https over the www connection is, but for the record here it is. I attach no cookies to my blogspot nor have I authorized any attachments. If a link is given, there may or may not -- for that reason, I frequently run my own virus checker (I use Norton 360) and also CCleaner.
ReplyDeleteEuropean Union laws require you to give European Union visitors information about cookies used on your blog. In many cases, these laws also require you to obtain consent.
As a courtesy, we have added a notice on your blog to explain Google's use of certain Blogger and Google cookies, including use of Google Analytics and AdSense cookies.
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To Susanna:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the absolutely atounding information you supplied on Eurasianism. I'm now reviewing it seriously. Seeing David Duke and Dugin aligned in this Neo-Fascistic movement is sobering indeed. It needs to be taken seriously.
Constance
This should be watched -- looks like part of the New Age Movement plans in the form of Occupy and Environmental protest operations:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/protesters-gather-at-2-oil-refineries-in-washington-state/
or http://tinyurl.com/hurbjl6
Constance
This also, in conjunction with above:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/protesters-block-train-tracks-to-2-washington-refineries/
or http://tinyurl.com/gvfmvd3
Constance
From an obvious New Ager's gleeful perspective on the Anacortes - Washington State train blocking event:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/05/13/24082109/if-you-care-about-the-giant-oil-refinery-protest-in-anacortes-this-weekend-watch-this-documentary-first
or
http://tinyurl.com/zkfuoea
Constance
Constance,
ReplyDeleteTurkey is committing genocide again with immunity:
http://journal-neo.org/2016/02/23/the-kurdish-genocide-must-be-stopped/
The West is silent.
meant to say impunity..
ReplyDeleteConstance,
ReplyDeleteI've been very interested lately in following the red-green connection to the "new world" that is being planned for everyone.
Here's the red/Marxist/Communist angle:
Communism has always been about destroying capitalism by any means necessary. The tactics change, as they see openings in the Western way of seeing things. "Social justice" is used against capitalism because "capitalism is oppressing the poor". "Climate justice" (just google *that* term and see what comes up!) is used against capitalism because capitalism oppresses the planet, and also, by proxy, the people who live here.
So capitalism must be destroyed, because capitalism is bad.
Most of the people of the West have come to believe the nonsense that capitalism by its very nature is evil. Our educational institutions have done their job in brainwashing.
Here's an interesting article called "The Marxist Roots of the Global Warming Scare":
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/vernon/080616
This quote from Natalie Grant who was interviewed for the article wraps it up in a nutshell:
"Protection of the environment may be used as a pretext to adopt a series of measures designed to undermine the industrial base of developed nations. It may also serve to introduce malaise by lowering their standard of living and implanting communist values."
We have seen environmental protests for many years now. If there was an enemy who wanted to destroy our capitalist industrial base, they would certainly attempt to influence and infiltrate these grass-roots movements. Whether that enemy has it's roots in Communism / Marxism, or New Age / Deep Ecology, it is almost certain that the well-intentioned people who participate in these protests are helping to bring about a hell on earth, instead of the Utopia they think they envision.
cont....
....cont
ReplyDeleteCarl Teichrib writes a lot about this. Here's an interesting article he wrote about "social justice" which mentions some tie-ins to the Green Movement:
http://defeatcommunism.com/forum/topics/marxist-social-justice
From the article above:
-----------------
"Today we see social justice linked to a myriad of radical movements, including environmentalism. Nice sounding, morally-high terms arise from this Marxist-green marriage; 'Eco-justice,' 'green justice,' and 'climate justice.' How does this look?
In 1990, the Manitoba government in partnership with UNESCO, convened the prestigious World Environment Energy and Economic Conference. The theme was provocative: 'Sustainable Development Strategies and the New World Order.'
A report was released with the findings, titled Sustainable Development for a New World Agenda. Chapter 2, 'Towards A Global Green Constitution,' fleshed out a section with the subtitle 'Social Justice.' Population control, green energy regulations and accounting systems that suggested 'an official global policy of one child per family,' and the 'principle of global economic equality' would be central to the 'green government,' the text reported. Human rights would also be at the forefront. Here’s how it would look; keep in mind that the following was deemed a positive state of affairs.
'Popular or not, green governments will oppose any culture if it proves to be prejudicial by reason of gender, age, colour, race, religion, belief, sexual orientation, mental or physical condition, marital status, family composition, source of income, political belief, nationality, language preference, or place of origin.'[30]"
-----------------
In my view, there can be no separating the attempts to establish a New-Age, unified world religion and a global system of governance that is attempting to establish itself through the Communist/Marxist push for a worldwide socialist government.
RED = GREEN = RAINBOW. They are all aligned against the Christian West, and if we don't turn back to God en masse, the calls for our destruction from all these camps will one day be realized.
My view above, however, may be incorrect. In a footnote (#12) to this article:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/parapolitics/commiethreat.htm
...it was noted that:
Though New Age spirituality can be quite nebulous, naïve or outright deceptive in its thinking about Marxism and communism, it has to be noted that Blavatsky, Krishnamurti and Prophet are here on the same sane anti-Communist line. Blavatsky stated about the Theosophical Society, that it is "Unconcerned about politics; hostile to the insane dreams of Socialism and of Communism, which it abhors-as both are but disguised conspiracies of brutal force and sluggishness against honest labour; the Society cares but little about the outward human management of the material world." ("What are the Theosophists?" in The Theosophist, Vol. I, No. 1, October, 1879, pp. 5-7). Ingram Smith recounts a most interesting story about a public discussion between Krishnamurti and Dr. N. M. Perera, a communist, barrister and member of the Sri Lanka parliament. The discussion was about communism, its take on human conditioning and its authoritarian solutions. Krishnamurti made it clear he would never submit to any totalitarian regime however noble its idealistic aims might be. He would rather be a martyr. [Ingram Smith The Transparent Mind: A Journey with Krishnamurti (New Delhi: Penguin Books, 2000), pp. 21-25.]
I guess the question is: In the time since, has the anti-communism of the Theosophists quoted above been lost in the desires of present New Agers for a new world, no matter how it is achieved?
Or maybe another question would be: Is the anti-communism expressed above simply incorrect thinking on their part, since a global transformation like what they envisioned could not be possible without some kind of political transformation as well?
Constance @ 10:14 PM.
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome.
Solana plays host and facilitator as well as planner, still cutting edge for every issue of EU projects, security in particular isn't he?
Found this too, Constance. Speaker at this one...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2016/05/20160524t1830vOLD410.aspx
If anyone can help me locate back issues of "Soviet Analyst", a newsletter sent out by Christopher Story (aka Edward Harle) starting in 1991, I'd be very grateful.
ReplyDeleteIndonesia has just passed a law mandating that those convicted of sexual crimes with a minor must be microchipped, I'm addition to other penalties.
ReplyDeleteDear Constance,
ReplyDeleteRE: It appeared to my reporter that the young, fairly new priest was making a statement that "Jesus took on our humanity so he could give us his Divinity."
First of all, this priest sounds like he could use a little stint in a pastoral "charm school" as well as a few stints in Catholic Bible studies in order to get his quotes straight in the "who said what" dept!!!
With regard to this priest's seeming "orthodoxy," it is possible for a priest to "get it right" on the prescribed rubrics of the Mass (in order to remain in good standing with his bishop) while getting theologically "creative" in his homilies and other facets of his priestly ministry.
It is not like your reporter was asking this priest to solve the mysteries of the Holy Trinity. So much New Age garbage has infiltrated Christianity - including the Catholic Church - that I can fully understand why your reporter may have felt compelled to discover what this priest actually meant in telling the congregation that "they were all God" - especially since there doesn't seem to be any indication that the priest included any other qualifying statements to his "you are all God" comment other than his refusal to genuflect to a parishioner named Sally.
Heresy aside, where this priest was most obviously out of line was the anger he displayed upon being questioned by your reporter. If I were your reporter, I would try to find out precisely what this priest meant, and if she is convinced that it actually smacks of heresy, I would then speak to the pastor and then the bishop if the pastor fails to clarify. Catholics have a right to sound teaching and do have the right to go as far as they need to go up the hierarchy if they have hard compelling evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that their right to receive sound Catholic Christian teaching has been violated.
cont...
cont...
ReplyDeleteThat said, the following is an excellent article on "Divinization" as it is understood in the Roman Catholic Church and other Christian communions.
DIVINIZATION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_%28Christian%29#Vision_of_God
"Divinization" does not in any way imply equality with God since God creates nothing equal to or greater than his Word.
What it does mean is that while we are creatures, we are creatures who have been created in the image and likeness of God, and although as creatures, we - unlike God - had a beginning.....as God's ADOPTED sons and daughters,( 2 Corinthians 6:18; Ephesans 1:5 ) we are destined (if we so choose with the help of God's Grace), to live FOREVER in Heaven with God in the unspeakable joy of the Beatific Vision which is the vision of God as He is face to face....an ever deepening vision of inexhaustible LOVE. It was the Apostle John, moreover, who said that we will be like God because we shall see him AS HE IS face to face. As one Christian writer so eloquently put it "the like is not the same." Here we are talking "gods" with a little "g."
Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2
BEATIFIC VISION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatific_vision
____________________________________
The "ever-deepening vision of inexhaustible LOVE" that is the Beatific Vision is in NO WAY the heretical New Age "evolutionary pantheism" of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin - if only because the Beatific Vision is an EVER DEEPENING VISION THAT NEVER ENDS. There is no such thing as the so-called "Omega Point" where we are destined to become "equal" to God's Word.
And that is precisely the unspeakable awe and joy of the Beatific Vision in Heaven.....that we will never know all that there is to know about God...that there will forever be something more to learn about God throughout all of eternity. Boredom is something that goes tandem with Hell, not Heaven.
cont...
ReplyDeleteI believe you had it right, Constance, with regard to Psalm 82.
PSALM 82:
This psalm is directed to the judges. It has a solemn mood because the psalmist is unhappy with man's judgments.
v.1 The Hebrew word for "gods" is also translated "judges," because a judge has authority over a person's destiny. God will judge the judges.
v.2 "The persons of the wicked" are the unrighteous rich, influential, and prominent.
v.6 Here again "gods" means "judges" (Exodus 22:28). Jesus also quoted this in John 10:34. A god in this sense is anyone or anything having power over your life.
v.8 The only righteous judgment will be executed when God judges the earth.
___________________________________________
To sum up, if the Roman Catholic priest who told the congregation that "they were all God!" meant to imply that they were somehow EQUAL to God, then THAT is not only heresy, it is blasphemy, and I find it troubling that this priest got so angry over being questioned as opposed to charitably taking the time to clarify what he meant to a parishioner who was sincerely seeking the truth FROM HIM PERSONALLY to his face instead of merely ASSUMING that he was preaching heresy and taking it up with his religious superior behind his back.
I hope your reporter finds this helpful.
Something Queer Happened in the Woman's Public Restroom - Woman / Children Have Reason(s) to Fear!
ReplyDeleteVideo on youtube by SEK4110
Published on 15 May 2016 Must see documented cases, (warning, graphic) solid proof women and children have every reason fear allowing transgender unfettered access to public restrooms. Please share to help spread awareness of the current and present dangers woman and children are facing.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GWlpOf177Ng
ReplyDeleteConstance,
ReplyDeleteRe: Eurasianism
Many of the people who have influenced Alexander Dugin ( i.e. Rene Guenon ) were involved with Helena Petrovna Blavatsky's Theosophical Society.
It is not to be forgotten that H.P. Blavatsky was Russian!!!
There was a lot of cross pollination of Russian occultism and European occultism - especially French occultism - via the Martinist Lodges......especially via Gerard Encausse - a.k.a. "Papus," a disciple of Eliphas Levi and Saint-Yves d'Alveydre and at one time a member of H.P. Blavatsky's Theosophical Society.
Constance,
ReplyDeleteRegarding the Armenian Genocide, the occult plays into this via the descendants of the Jewish heretics ( heretics by Jewish standards ) in Turkey ( former Ottoman Empire ) who were followers of the false messiah known as Sabbatai Tsvi.
They are known as the "Donmeh" and are perceived by many Armenians as being responsible for the Armenian genocide. Much of Dönmeh ritual is a combination of various elements of Kabbalah, Sabbateanism, Jewish traditional law, and Sufism.
DONMEH
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%B6nmeh
The following is from the Jewish Virtual Library:
DOENMEH
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0005_0_05294.html
cont...
cont...
ReplyDeleteOne of the more truly bizarre offshoots of the Donmeh in Turkey is DONMEH WEST founded by Lawrence G. Corey (a.k.a. Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain), who has converted to just about ......EVERYTHING!!!!
DONMEH WEST
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donmeh_West
http://donmeh-west.com/
________________________________
Yakov Leib HaKohain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Leib_HaKohain
Dan Bryan and Constance,
ReplyDeleteIronically, one of the bishops of the Armenian Apostolic Church - a.k.a. the Armenian Orthodox Church - has had ties to Vassula Ryden. His name is Armen (Norvan) Zakarian.
Vassula Ryden's "private revelations" have been denounced by both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic communions.
In the year 2000, he and Vassula were present at a Holy Land Conference and Pilgrimage.
http://www.tligpilgrimages.org/holyland.html
_____________________________________________
In 2001 Vassula visited Bangladesh accompanied by the Armenian Orthodox Bishop of Lyons (Armen (Norvan) Zakarian) in France who was travelling with her. Zakarian had once before accompanied Vassula Ryden on a mission to South America.
http://www.tlig.org/en/mission/reports/2001/0302-06/
____________________________________________________
In 2013, Zakarian resigned on account of "the strained relations with His holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians." (???)
PRIMATE OF THE ARMENIAN CHURCH DIOCESE OF FRANCE RESIGNS HIS SERVICES
https://armenpress.am/eng/news/738647/primate-of-the-armenian-church-diocese-of-france-resigns-from-his-service.html
____________________________________________________
At the Assisi interfaith summit of 2011,
Archbishop Norvan Zakarian, primate of the Armenian Apostolic Church in France, denounced the “gravest of all crimes, genocide,” though he did not specifically mention the killing of more than 1 million Armenians by Ottoman Turks following World War I.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/28/assisi-interfaith-summit-2011_n_1062649.html
___________________________________________________
Interestingly enough, I can find nothing about Zakarian's affiliation and support of Vassula Ryden on the Armenian Apostolic Church sites.
Why is Turkey so arrogant? I hope the European Union never accepts Turkeys membership application.
ReplyDeleteFrank,
ReplyDeleteThey may not accept a membership application but if the visa requirements are dropped, Turkey becomes a de facto EU state because they will flood the continent with immigrants who will change the entire fabric of Europe. This is already in the process of happening. Turkey is just blackmailing EU, say that if they don't pass the visa free travel, they will open the gates and let all of the ones come who have travelled through Turkey to Syria to do jihad.
Many may not realize that Turkey already allows visa free travel into their country which has facilitated the illegitimate war in Syria. Turkey has not been acting alone, but without the ease of travel you could not have all the foreign fighters. Turkey was also facilitating the ISIS sale of oil, which provided funding for them. Very dirty games being played in the region.
This is the real Frank. The 'frank' at 2:13 AM isn't me.
ReplyDeletehttps://jaysanalysis.com/2016/05/07/the-world-is-not-enough-jaysanalysis-wpatrick-henningsen-half/
ReplyDeleteKC
Satan's good friend the Pope speaking again.
ReplyDeletewww.breakingisraelnews.com/67928/pope-francis-defends-jihad-says-christianity-has-similar-roots-in-idea-of-conquest-05/16/#XeWGa2Wd7vwRwEVA97
9:39 AM
ReplyDeleteSuch a "reliable" source that the page can't be displayed? No other source for this story either.
What a blatent LIE to compare bloody Islam and it's history of murder, slavery, highjacking, and child abuse, with it's polar opposite
ReplyDeleteof new life, forgiveness of sin, clean living, and enduring love which is found in Jesus Christ, the son of God.
There is no real comparison.
This pope is an antipope.
Amen, Paul.
ReplyDeleteThe pope is recounting his religion's history, those dark ages and beyond when it ruled over the masses that are very bloody, so he isn't recounting the true HIStory of the Lord's Body, living in the world, but not of it. The pope doesn't get, or even know, that part of HIStory.
My ancestor's were all too well acquainted with the history of the religious institution he belongs to.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/all-eyes-focus-on-language-about-russia-in-eu-global-strategy/
ReplyDelete....to their way of thinking....
Skeptics (you know who you are … shame on you) probably doubt that the “weeping miraculous tears” mary (small “m” on purpose) statue is real. Personally, I have no problem believing in such a minor “miracle.” After all, this “miracle” is nothing on the miracle scale compared to Mother Angelica’s child “jesus” statue (small “j” on purpose) “coming to life” and “speaking to her” … his message to her, you ask? Nothing other than “collect lots of money in my name, build a shrine to me and I will bless all that give.” $50 Million later, and a really, really nice shrine was built, and everyone that gave no doubt got a HUGE blessing in return. Wow, I think you could build a really, really nice shrine for $50 million. It must be something to behold. Hopefully, once in awhile, the talking, child statue comes to life again and utters some really memorable words … like maybe, “hey, build be another shrine, only this time much bigger.”
ReplyDeleteAnyways, for you silly skeptics, here’s that story you may have missed regarding the “weeping statue of mary" (small “m” on purpose … wink, wink).
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/mary-statue-in-california-appears-to-weep-miraculous-tears-13006/
Anonymous RayB said...
ReplyDeleteSkeptics (you know who you are … shame on you) probably doubt that the “weeping miraculous tears” mary (small “m” on purpose) statue is real.
Hey RayB if you were one of these statures and knew that you would never walk, skip run or even enjoy a beer, you would most likely cry as well?
On a SISTER MARY EЯIKSON topic: Hybrids coming to the light?
In the 60's this religion/talk was done by the loving hippies.
It did 'not take' as we are not conditioned to accept this?
Now they have created hybrids to convince us of this pantheism, all for the good of humanity.
By their fruits/doctrines we shall know them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcHM_k9oVIQ
Dan, SISTER MARY EЯIKSON has no doubt beamed off to another 'diocese' in the 'cyber-æther'.
ReplyDeleteAnd none too soon: she instigated many an ungodly stir among the pews here, with many a 'parishioner's' patience perishing due to her poppycock and false accusation.
It is a blessing to have peace and tranquillity return here since she's been gone.
I have several theories on why Sister Justina suddenly went silent. One is that Constance finally clamped the lid down on her and won't allow her to post her damaging nonsense, openly sinful lifestyle & New Age heresies on her blog. But does that seem likely? After all, Constance did say Justina had a "good heart."
ReplyDeleteI think a far more likely scenario is that Sister Justina miraculously became a plaster statue and is currently in her "silent" stage (statues do that ... sometimes for years at a time). This may seem unlikely to the skeptic, but, think ... THINK! ... if statues can show signs of becoming human, why can't humans become statues? And if Sister Justina is now a statue, does that mean we have to bow down to her ... and p ... pr .... pray to her???
Hmmmmmm ... I wonder what Susanna would say on this puzzling subject?
I don't care about the "puzzle", I care about the peace. Good to have some. Maybe folks (like I'm doing) will go back through and look at links scattered throughout, this thread and previous, that got lost in the Erikson turned wrong side out episodes -- with her clearly unbiblical, unhelpful, and unwanted information, that trashed this blog.
ReplyDeleteAll chatter regarding a certain someone will no doubt be regretted.
ReplyDeleteRemember that her favorite word is "pounce".
Oh she'll be back.
@ 10:07 AM
ReplyDeleteYes, she will. Very predictable and boring, almost coma inducing. I feel a big yawn coming on just reading about her.
Dozens of children from Peru school in outbreak of 'contagious demonic possession'
ReplyDeleteBy Marnie O’Neill
8:00 AM Friday May 20, 2016
It started about three weeks ago, when about 20 children from the Elsa Perea Flores School in Peru became violently ill.
They displayed the same terrifying symptoms; muscular convulsions - some developing into full blown seizures - fainting, vomiting, delirium and frothing at the mouth.
The children, all aged between 11 and 14, shared another unsettling trait - a shared hallucination involving being chased by a "tall man in black with a beard" who was trying to kill them.
Since then, between 80 and 100 children from the school have been affected by what education officials are calling a mass case of "contagious demonic possession or interference".
Other children are seen lying on school desks surrounded by classmates and teachers who switch between comforting and restraining them as they wait for medical help to arrive.
"It's disturbing for me to think about it. It's as if someone kept on chasing me from behind," one affected student, 12, who has since recovered, told reporters.
"It was a tall man all dressed in black and with a big beard and it felt like he was trying to strangle me. My friends say I was screaming desperately, but I don't remember much."
A 13-year-old girl, who also wanted to remain anonymous, citing fears of being laughed at or attacked, told TV Peruana of several children from different classrooms fainting at the same time.
"I got nauseous and started vomiting," she said. "I heard voices. A man in black chased me and wanted to touch me."
Another schoolgirl said she had trouble breathing and was desperately holding her neck as if someone was strangling her. According to friends who say they witnessed the event, she kept screaming: "Take it out".
Initial reports suggested the children had been playing with a ouija board in an effort to call up spirits said to haunt the school, which is rumoured to have been built on land once used as a mass grave by the Mafia.
School authorities have called in a string of doctors, holy men and even exorcists since the outbreak began. Several masses have been carried out by Catholic priests at the school at the request of parents but so far nothing seems to have worked.
"We don't understand how this has kept on going on", Dr Antony Choy told national network Panamericana TV. "We know it started on April 29 and now it is still happening. Now there are more than 80 pupils (still affected)."
Elsa de Pizango, whose 12-year-old daughter was one of those who became "possessed" told reporters: "She fainted in school. They didn't say anything at the hospital. She just fainted. She keeps on spitting froth from her mouth."
- news.com.au
By Marnie O’Neil
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11641972
Dan Bryan
ReplyDelete"If I understand this correctly, the genocide was heavily sanctioned that of the
Armenian Apostolic Church with no mention of genocide in the Armenian Catholic
Church.
The Armenian Apostolic Church was not in communion with Rome at that time. The
Armenian Catholic Church was subservient to Rome."
you do not understand correctly. Turkey claims that this was a response to their
possible connivance with Russia against Turkey, and all categories of Armenians
and many Eastern Orthodox were targetted. An excuse is that atrocities were done
by other non Turkish ethnic groups such as Kurds, but these were at the
instigation and permission of Turkish authorities. the style of attack including
crucifixion and destruction of churches showed an anti Christian purpose. the
descendants of the Kurds involved have repudiated their ancestors' activities
and admitted genocide occurred. Armenians were nearly eliminated from Turkey
that is not indication of limitation to one denomination.
Constance,
the cookie thing and security thing requires people to know if they are getting
cookies, or you get cut out of European access. What I did was place a notice
on my blogs that I can't tell if cookies are there or not, I can't figure how
to give you an opt out, so use at your own risk. I think this should be good
enough, given all the traffic from all over the world including Europe that I
still get on all my blogs. I put it in the initial page purpose statement under
the title so is seen on all posts.
Thanks Susanna - great info clearly explained, as usual.
ReplyDeleteI'm just heading to my downstairs office to do the radio program. This morning I have HEAVY discussion on NEWT GINGRICH (many are saying he is Donald Trump's probable running mate) and COMMON CORE as reported by FORTUNE MAGAZINE and beyond.
ReplyDeleteRon Siegel wants to join us for 15 minutes on the declining of health care to those deemed unworthy and that will happen at 11:30.
Join us at TMERadio.com and consider joining the chatroom this morning!
Thanks!
CONSTANCE
If the slimey Newt becomes VP then he's one heartbeat - the last after an
ReplyDeleteassassination - away from the presidency. This is very bad.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/20/silicon-assassins-condemn-humans-life-useless-artificial-intelligence from https://www.technocracy.news/index.php/2016/05/20/bestselling-historian-says-promise-ai-means-rise-useless-class-humans/
ReplyDeletehow long before technologically useless = useless eaters? article doesn't address this.
https://www.technocracy.news/index.php/2016/05/20/atmospheric-scientist-shreds-rising-sea-level-propaganda-alarmist-hysterics/
Dan,
ReplyDeleteyou stand 'corrected' by none other than that 'font of googling knowledge', SISTER MARY EЯIKSON! (You seem to forget she's got a live-in seer!):
"you do not understand correctly."
Tut tut, Dan! Now right your out sums (repeating the information as she does long and tortuously) in Orwellian style, as she would have them dictated:
2 + 2 = 5 ...
LOL
Right or write... whoops... and I'm even using capitals at the beginning of sentences, whatever next?
ReplyDeleteLol!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
ReplyDeleteby the way Dan, where did you get your information about some supposed preferential treatment towards RC connected Armenians?
She's on your case, Dan! It's you up first!
ReplyDeleteTurkey Threatens Armenia with 'Another Armenian Genocide':
ReplyDeletehttp://yournewswire.com/turkey-threatens-armenia-with-another-armenian-genocide/
Not sure if this name has been mentioned previously - Steven Bancarz is a young man who had a big New Age website who came out of the New Age and is now Christian. He's on Youtube.
ReplyDeleteRayB, you are a real class act, particularly with the respectful way you treat others here, particularly Susanna. And no doubt Jesus Christ appreciates the respect you show the mother of the Word Incarnate.
ReplyDeleteThank you for being such a great model of Christian humility and adult faith. You have a real anointing, RayB.
http://www.prepperfortress.com/fears-earthquake-nj-pa-seismic-faults-ocean-give-off-gases/ might be nothing might be Ramapo fault system go (and take New Madrid fault with it? or trigger through faults in the sea floor the earthquake that will finish the slide of Cumbre Vieja and put 150 feet of water onto our coasts?)
ReplyDeleteOh shut up, Anonymous 3:48 PM! Ray B has valid points which should be addressed. For one, calling Mary, "the Queen of Heaven", is a great insult to God and to Mary. Haven't you read Jeremiah?
ReplyDeleteHey RayB,
ReplyDeleteDo you get all giddy with warm fuzzies in your tummy when you read about the death of Margaret Clitherow?
anon 7:31
ReplyDeletewhen are you going to get it through your head (try reading Kings and Chronicles) that the Jewish queens were the mothers of the kings, not wives. that's why Mary is Queen of Heaven. nothing to do with some pagan nonsense. I Kings 15:13
"Hey RayB,
ReplyDeleteDo you get all giddy with warm fuzzies in your tummy when you read about the death of Margaret Clitherow?"
he probably does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Clitherow
7:31 PM,
ReplyDeleteNEWSFLASH: People who are secure in their faith don't ridicule and mock the faith of others - nor do they use terms like "Shut up!" when attempting (allegedly) to share theirs.
You and RayB desperately want the Cumbey blog to be a little anti-Catholic ghetto and it enrages you that you have no control over the fact that - thanks be to God - it is not. It is a blog about the New Age written by a brilliant Protestant, yet one of the premier researchers/intellects in this area of study, Susanna, happens to be.... .......Cstholic. (ARRRRRRGHHH!!!!!!)
I feel your utter outrage and frustration about this appalling, unjust situation over which you have utterly no control, really I do.
Lots of former Protestants here who were deeply immersed in anti-Catholic propaganda similar to that pushed here by RayB:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.chnetwork.org/converts/
I need get nothing in my head from you, witchtina!
ReplyDeleteStill angry at Ray B for pulling you up on your " ad "?
Unlike you, Ray B is a breath of fresh air here. He is right to bring up the statue issue and if Susanna gas any merit, she'll respond honestly to him!
It was so nice without you here, btw!
Anon 7:47 PM, you are as interesting and as redundant as Ms Erikson so Newsflash this: YAWN!
"Still angry at Ray B for pulling you up on your " ad "? "
ReplyDeleteno, I'm angry at him for lying about that nonexistent ad. But even without that, he is a mess enough to be mad at.
anon 8:02 get it in your head from I Kings 15:13 and note how all the kings' mothers are named. the queen is the mother of the king, always, never one of his wives. That is why Mary is Queen of Heaven.
ReplyDeleteUse some common sense, 8:02. Why would Susanna, who is ever gracious, waste her time addressing ANYTHING written by someone as rude and obnoxious as RayB (who acts like a playground bully) has been to her?
ReplyDeleteThankfully, I know from first-hand experience that not all Protestants are rude, obnoXious bullies like Rayb - even ones who reject the title "Queen of Heaven" on theological grounds.
Oh, she sure is mad, 8:02!
ReplyDeleteIs it a full moon again over in Rocklin?
"NEWSFLASH: People who are secure in their faith don't ridicule and mock the faith of others - nor do they use terms like "Shut up!" when attempting (allegedly) to share theirs."
ReplyDeleteDisagreeing is one thing, being disagreeable is another.
I thought RayB's tone and comment was unnecessary toward Susanna also. He made his point so it didn't need to turn personal.
But the harshness like Erikson frequently displays, is the foremost example of what is noted in the quote above, in that category like none other.
For goodness sake, 3000 strikes and she should be out by now.
She deserves no more grace given to her at this blog.
Ever.
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/terra_forming.htm
ReplyDeletethe latest development in dominionism and NAR with a dash of "blue flame" occultism.
Christines back with 10 posts in one day.
ReplyDeleteThis blog was great for the few days we had without her.
Its only a matter of time and it will be dragged back into emergent new age mystic anti sola scripture twisting commentry.
PLEASE BAN HER CONSTANCE!
If she leaves the posts will be 1/5th the amount
ReplyDeleteEЯIKSON, your attempts to deflect blame for your "ad" back onto Ray B (which he, Dan and many others have been witness to) are nothing short of audacious!
ReplyDeleteMany decent posters (unlike you) have left because of you: you, M. C. EЯIKSON, should mirror them!
Hey RayB fanboys:
ReplyDeleteEver since Christine has returned, her comments have not contained anything offensive, repulsive, or otherwise inappropriate. In fact some of them contained some interesting and useful information. (I wish, though, that she had the patience of Susanne, and just ignored the personal insults.)
Not so your comments. Nothing but innuendo, rude insults and arrogant strutting of your ignorance, with zero informational value. Who is blog-clogging now??
No doubt, this endorsement of Christine drives you to fits of apoplexy. "Stop encouraging her!!" you shout at the screen. Yet, isn't it wise to encourage good behavior, and discourage bad? And also isn't it merciful (as we are supposed to be, if we have the Spirit living in us) to give a person more chances than they "deserve" to change?
---------------------------------------------
Justice: When you get what you deserve
Mercy: When you don't get what you deserve
Grace: When you get what you don't deserve
Yawn, Anon 7:11, you're as useless, boring and accusing as she is! Living out of wedlock with your own "Resident Seer" and "ex" Satanist co-fornicator too, are you?
ReplyDeletePerhaps you could help her with her possible sequel?: '19th Century Missionary Outreach in Martian Base Five and the case of the blocked chakras'...
When MCE apologizes for and retracts her false accusations against many here, apologizes for years of jamming, personal attacks, arrogant pride and hubris, deseminating occult nonsense (with the potential of leading others astray, and stops being shacked up out of wedlock with someone she has a history fornication with (she admits she has alegedly stopped this due to medical and not for higher moral reasons), for having held this unrepentant rebellious reprobate and (according to her) "ex" Satanist whom she lauds and adores as her "Resident Seer" (her capitalization, not mine), and on it goes, THEN and only then could she logically and rightly be regarded as having repented!
ReplyDeleteUntil then, she should be refuted and exposed for who and what she is. Or are you, like she, 7:11, insinuating that Crowley's axim, " do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", should prevail here? I for one shall stand firm against such diabolical and liberal wishy-washy condoning of her blatant boasting and excuses for her abhorrent "lifestyle choices"!
Anon. 7:11 here.
ReplyDeleteI should have used quotes around "endorsement". I don't condone her lifestyle, or any of the other wackiness she puts here. I'm just saying... you aren't any better. Different sins you have, but you're in the same predicament. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you is the maxim I live by.
Anon 7:11, you're hypocrisy and double standards are glaringly on display here. We're criticizing her, you're criticizing us... " regards your maxim, "you aren't any better", how's about you go look in the mirror!
ReplyDeleteShe usually uses her pounce technique so she is pretty craft to do the slow slide back in with an occasional "good" post. I hope that means she's doing a rethink about her unsociable ways. Either way if she doesn't hit the reset in her attitude (apologetic) and ways (be gracious herself) then it is back to the same old tactics that hijack the blog. The patterns of her past postings have been glaring. I got back here just today and find the same thing trying to start all over again.
ReplyDeleteChristine, do the right thing and apologize and limit yourself like Constance told you repeatedly to do.
Really it is you that needs most to prove you want to be good blog company.
I think just as the Brexit success will shock people, a surprise joining of Turkey to the EU in the next few years will shock the world as well.
ReplyDeleteFor the EU to control the Mediterranean it needs to control the Bosphorus Straits.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-top-imam-embrace-historic-meeting-vatican-114906546.html?ref=gs
ReplyDelete"Anonymous paul said...
ReplyDeleteWhat a blatent LIE to compare bloody Islam and it's history of murder, slavery, highjacking, and child abuse, with it's polar opposite
of new life, forgiveness of sin, clean living, and enduring love which is found in Jesus Christ, the son of God.
There is no real comparison."
copy and paste from the link of 9:23 AM post==========
"Our meeting is the message," Francis told Sheikh Ahmed al-Tayeb as he welcomed the imam to the Vatican, officials told a small pool of reporters covering the event.
In a statement on the trip, Al-Azhar said Tayeb had accepted Francis's invitation in order to "explore efforts to spread peace and co-existence."
Seeing how warm and chummy they are in the link at 9:23 AM it is safe to say that they are partners against, truly polar opposites, of the message of Jesus the Lord.
@ 11:57 AM
ReplyDeletehttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3431531/posts
And several other named sources picked up the story about the Pope's comparison of Christianity and Jihad.
Just so ya know.........
The "pope's" comparison to Jesus sending out his disciples to preach the Gospel that sets enslaved sinners FREE to the brutal, bloody, evil, Satanic Jihadists is pure blasphemy.
ReplyDeleteBut then again, this "pope" has other statements that rank right up there with the worst of the worst statements ever made by a "professing" Christian:
"Atheists that do good go to heaven."
"Gays that do good, who am I to judge? They will be in heaven too."
"Christians and Muslims worship the same God."
"Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, etc. ... they all worship the same God and are all God's children."
"The FAILURE of the cross of Christ." ... on 2 recorded occasions. Once in NY @ St. Patrick's and once at the Vatican.
Numerous other statements regarding illegal immigration and open borders (even though the Vatican is surrounded by a 40 foot wall), pro-Marxist "share the wealth" statements, pro-climate change statements, pro-global economic order/global government statements, etc., etc. Much more could be referred to ... I'll stop here.
This "pope" is a set up for the REALLY radical religious beast that is coming on the scene. If you want to keep tabs on the development of the coming One Word Government (prophesied in Revelation), keep your eye on Rome ... THAT is the epicenter of the Anti-Christ.
http://facingislam.blogspot.com/2016/05/there-are-2-billion-muslims-in-world.html#more
ReplyDeletedetails how trouble increases as muslim percentage of population increases.
Good post, Christine at 8:34 PM. I note you have posted only once today and without arguing. I have been and am one of your harshest critics but today I say well done!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous RayB said...5:13 PM
ReplyDeletekeep your eye on Rome ...
I have been looking everywhere else as well but do not see any evidence of any thing developing. I keep watching something develop with Kazakhstan but nothing yet.
It is interesting, that if any other faith leader or individual had made claims as you quoted they would be castigated as a heretic and made to walk the plank!
Another astonishing "miracle" stone statue comes to life (see link below), a “sign” indicating, no doubt, the validity of the RCC’s “mary” (small “m” on purpose). This time it's the RCC "mary" shedding a single "tear of blood.” Sometimes these stone statues shed tears of water, sometimes oil. Upon witnessing these stone statue miracles, how can anyone doubt that this must be a “sign” proving the validity of Rome’s “mary?” In fact, this impoverished little Colombian town is expecting lots and lots of pilgrims to visit their very own “mary” statue to see her single “tear of blood.” And why would they make such a pilgrimage? To seek for a “sign” … that’s why.
ReplyDeleteWell, as you might have guessed, there is a slight problem with all of this. It seems that Jesus condemned those that sought for a “sign” … “… An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall NO SIGN BE GIVEN TO IT…” Matthew 12:39 He is clearly declaring that these “signs” are not from God! If they aren’t from God, there are only two other sources; one is from man (after all, it was MAN that MADE these statues), or it is a Satanic hoax.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of ALL SIGNS given unto mankind from God, and He alone. There is no other “sign” needed, or sanctioned by God, other than Christ’s virgin birth, sacrificial death and glorious resurrection.
For an interesting Biblical account regarding pagan images, along with the profits made by those that perpetrate this fraud upon gullible people, read Acts 19 beginning at verse 24. There, you will find that pagan images (silver statues) were being made, and sold, of the false “goddess” Diana of the Ephesians. This brings to my attention the verse from Scripture … “there is nothing new under the sun.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3604902/It-s-miracle-Virgin-Mary-statue-crying-single-tear-blood-prompts-mass-pilgrimage-small-Colombian-town.html
http://www.monomakhos.com/is-the-pope-catholic-part-whatever/
ReplyDeleteThat quote about no sign being given ignores the larger context. Jesus did do miracles and John 2:11 refers to the changing of water into wine as a sign. But
here in the quote He addressed a wicked generation not believers, not even
friendlies, who demanded a sign from Him and would likely find an excuse to ignore
it or soon fall away anyway.
as for weeping statues, sure there's been fraud. and there are always demonic deceptions. but there are legitimate things also. The truth is usually (and in this case definitely is) between two extremes.
If you don’t believe Rome is at the center of creating a One World Religion, you are in deep denial.
ReplyDeleteJust take a few minutes to view this Official Vatican video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FfTxwTX34
Jesus Christ uniquely declared “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.” John 14:6 Is there another way other than Christ? NO. Is there another truth that is above His Word? No. Is there eternal life to be found through anyone or anything else? NO.
In contrast to the "pope's" false message of members of all religious faiths being "children of God," Scripture clearly declares in contrast “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:26 It is only through Christ, and Him alone, that we are able to call ourselves "children of God."
The “pope” takes the “straight and narrow gate” that leads unto life and dramatically widens it in order to fool people into believing there is another “way” to the Father other than through Jesus Christ.
If this man isn’t a false prophet, who in the world is?
answer: Muhammed
ReplyDeleteGood answer Paul. At least the pope and his followers do not use the title "prophet" when referring to him.
ReplyDeleteMuslims must be converted, says Vatican cardinal
ReplyDeleteMay 23, 2016
Christians are called to seek the conversion of all Muslims, the president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity told an audience at Cambridge University.
The imperative to seek conversions applies even-- perhaps especially-- to militant Muslims, Cardinal Kurt Koch said.
Speaking at an interfaith meeting, Cardinal Koch said that the duty to evangelize applies to all Christians, in their relations with all other faiths except Judaism. He acknowledged that Christians share with both Jews and Muslims a reverence for the traditions of faith handed down from Abraham. But he said that "we cannot deny that the view of Abraham in Jewish and Christian tradition and the Islamic tradition is not the same."
While Christians acknowledge the covenant God made with the Jewish people, the same cannot be said of the Islamic faith, the cardinals said. Thus "we have only with Jewish people this unique relationship that we do not have with Islam."
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=28373
World: Vatican Cautions Against Muslim-Catholic Marriages (Part 1)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rferl.org/content/article/1052841.html
Christians have a mission to convert all Muslims, says Vatican official
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/christians-have-a-mission-to-convert-all-muslims-says-vatican-official/
Anonymous Anonymous said... 10:11 PM
ReplyDeleteWhile Christians acknowledge the covenant God made with the Jewish people, the same cannot be said of the Islamic faith, the cardinals said. Thus "we have only with Jewish people this unique relationship that we do not have with Islam."
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=28373
Susanne, Please comment on this for my curiosity.
Can the Roman Church have it both ways?
I have heard over the years a disdain against any evangelical church proselytizing Catholics. Yet here we see this effort by this news article toward the Muslim and other faiths?
Yet we see in the video posted by RayB said...4:35 PM
If you don’t believe Rome is at the center of creating a One World Religion,.....
Just take a few minutes to view this Official Vatican video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FfTxwTX34
This video indicates that a 'common love' is now the gospel?
What is different of this 'common love' and that that of the New Age 'common love' when both are devoid of the works of the cross?
Additionally it states that the Jew should not come to the knowledge of the work accomplished by the Messiah on the cross? As was written in one of the comments to this article, that CC849 refutes this nuance of faith?
Thanks,
dan
"What is different of this 'common love' and that that of the New Age 'common love' when both are devoid of the works of the cross?"
ReplyDeleteExactly. Thank you, Dan.
Dan & Anonymous ...
ReplyDeleteAs is typical of Satan, there is almost always an element of "truth" mixed into his lies. In this case, his "common love" (used to unite false religions) is a variation of what Jesus said was the 2nd. commandment which is "love your neighbor as yourself." What is obviously missing in the "common love" theme is the FIRST commandment ... “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.” Matthew 22: 38,39
Satan actually loves false religion, and more often than not, his deceivers use the Scriptures, taken out of context, to fool the spiritually gullible. The “common love” theme used in the video appeals to the emotions, which are fickle at best. True love of God, as described in the Scriptures, is to believe what God says in His word, and obey Him faithfully ... much the same as a young child obeying his/her earthly father. Anything else is pure folly.
"The “common love” theme used in the video appeals to the emotions, which are fickle at best."
ReplyDeleteThe copycat devil loves to mimic truth, so to those who are not possessed by the Holy Spirit (born again) or those too spiritually gullible as you noted RayB, it is these that will fall short of the spiritual discernment to know the difference between what is only "soulish" (therefore only natural in it's appeal to the flesh of the mind and heart) and can be of "another spirit which is darkness" compared to what is truly spiritual because from the Spirit Himself, speaking un-compromised truth to a heart given to hearing the Lord's voice. The word of God is called a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path for very good reason as light dispels darkness, infinitely higher, and the devil deceives using the "lesser light" in the soul (the seat of the emotions) of man because he doesn't realize the shortfall. It is paramount that we, who claim Christ as our Savior and Lord, be people of the Word-the canon of Holy Scripture-as taught by the Spirit who promises the mind of God, the wisdom of God, to the believer.
The merely good is always the enemy of the best that is from God's standpoint.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
People really need to know the difference because it is huge, and the devil is very crafty.
Dan Bryan 12:42 AM,
ReplyDeleteThe way I learned it, we are to "make disciples of ALL NATIONS" (including Israel), baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."
Therefore, I think it is a little misleading to say things that could be taken to mean that no effort should be made to evangelize the Jews. When the Apostles went out to "make disciples of all nations," they went to the Jews FIRST because of the fact that the Jews were God's Chosen People.
Of course, the issue of HOW we go about our evangelization is quite another matter.
Another article from the Jerusalem Post reads:
Thursday’s document said Catholics should “bear witness to their faith in Jesus Christ also to Jews,” but that they should do so in “a humble and sensitive manner, acknowledging that Jews are bearers of God’s word...”
Rabbi David Rosen, the International Director of Interreligious Affairs for the American Jewish Committee, welcomed the new Vatican document......read entire article...
http://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/Catholics-should-not-try-to-convert-Jews-Vatican-says-in-landmark-document-436915
_________________________________________________
And when all is said and done, if someone is "converted" whether Jew or Muslim, it is not rank and file Christians like you and me who do the converting. It is the Holy Spirit!
P.S. Dan
ReplyDeleteI would like to respectfully point out that Protestants have been among the first to point out that the Muslim "Allah" is not the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." And they may be right.
I used to think that they were the same until one of my good Protestant friends showed me that this was not necessarily true by citing to me the Catechism of the Catholic church.
The Conciliar statement which has often been misrepresented and/or ignored by the Catholic Church's critics has added a wise caveat which actually reads that "Mohammedans" (Musulmanos) are "professing" to hold the faith of Abraham
Whether or not they actually hold it is arguable, but the Vatican Council is only noting that they claim for their faith that it is that of Abraham, without discussing whether or not Islam actually is an authentically Abrahamic faith.
Anonymous Susanna said...1:59 PM
ReplyDeleteDan Bryan 12:42 AM,
The way I learned it, we are to "make disciples of ALL NATIONS" (including Israel), baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."
If we look up the scripture making "make disciples of ALL NATIONS" we need to take the context of when that was written, as people in that day did not live in nation states with ethnic diversity, but by clan, ethnicity, or in the larger picture by that of empire. So the true meaning of making disciples of All Nations really means ethnic groups. The NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) has got this wrong trying to Christianize nations politically, IMO. You are absolutely correct in that if the Holy Spirit does not draw an individual, they can not or will not come.
Anonymous Susanna said...2:31 PM
P.S. Dan
Whether or not they actually hold it is arguable, but the Vatican Council is only noting that they claim for their faith that it is that of Abraham, 2:31 PM
Again as I have said, I do not protest what the Roman Church believes, however, as 'People of the Cross' as you seem to be, the symbol that was used in the ecumenical video should have been the cross, but that would have been too divisive?
So what was the faith of Abraham but to believe God's word AND be obedient unto the killing of his son, pointing to none other than that of the cross. Not quite the faith of Islam, where they want to put you on the cross or separate your soul and spirit by taking your head?
Thanks for your candid comments. If I were Catholic I would protest the mixed messages that have been coming from Rome, arguably to the point of being another gospel.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of "People of the Cross," there is a story included by the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen in his book LIFE OF CHRIST about a saint to whom the devil appeared saying "I am the Christ." The saint confounded the devil by replying "Where are the marks of nails?"....after which the devil immediately disappeared.
It was Archbishop Sheen's strong belief that the two superpowers and their allies seemed to represent a divorce between Christ and His Cross. The atheistic Soviet Union represented "the cross without Christ." The hedonistic West represented "Christ without His Cross." The feel-good "Christ" promoted by the New Age Movement is a perfect example of the latter.
Archbishop Sheen maintained that a Christ without His Cross was an Antichrist and that the absence of the marks of the Crucifixion would be the one of the chief ways by which we would be able to discern the Antichrist when he made his grand entrance onto the stage of world history.
The Antichrist will not be so called; otherwise he would have no followers. He will not wear red tights, nor vomit sulphur, nor carry a trident nor wave an arrowed tail as Mephistopheles in Faust. This masquerade has helped the Devil convince men that he does not exist. When no man recognizes, the more power he exercises. God has defined Himself as "I am Who am," and the Devil as "I am who am not."
Nowhere in Sacred Scripture do we find warrant for the popular myth of the Devil as a buffoon who is dressed like the first "red." Rather is he described as an angel fallen from heaven, as "the Prince of this world," whose business it is to tell us that there is no other world. His logic is simple: if there is no heaven there is no hell; if there is no hell, then there is no sin; if there is no sin, then there is no judge, and if there is no judgment then evil is good and good is evil. But above all these descriptions, Our Lord tells us that he will be so much like Himself that he would deceive even the elect--and certainly no devil ever seen in picture books could deceive even the elect. How will he come in this new age to win followers to his religion?
The pre-Communist Russian belief is that he will come disguised as the Great Humanitarian; he will talk peace, prosperity and plenty not as means to lead us to God, but as ends in themselves. . . .
cont...
cont...
ReplyDelete. . . The third temptation in which Satan asked Christ to adore him and all the kingdoms of the world would be His, will become the temptation to have a new religion without a Cross, a liturgy without a world to come, a religion to destroy a religion, or a politics which is a religion--one that renders unto Caesar even the things that are God's.
In the midst of all his seeming love for humanity and his glib talk of freedom and equality, he will have one great secret which he will tell to no one: he will not believe in God. Because his religion will be brotherhood without the fatherhood of God, he will deceive even the elect. He will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ. . . .
. . . But the twentieth century will join the counterchurch because it claims to be infallible when its visible head speaks ex cathedra from Moscow on the subject of economics and politics, and as chief shepherd of world communism....
(Fulton J. Sheen, Communism and the Conscience of the West [Bobbs-Merril Company, Indianapolis, 1948], pp. 24-25)
__________________________
The following is the "Mystery of Faith" that we Catholics recite at every Mass.
"Lord by your Cross and Resurrection You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World."
*****************************
In the Bible, I believe a "nation" is simply a "family writ large." By His command to "make disciples of all nations," I believe Christ meant this entire temporal earthly world until the end of time but without any allusions to any earthly political system since Christ not only clearly stated that He was a King, but also that His kingdom "is not of this world."
Re: If I were Catholic I would protest the mixed messages that have been coming from Rome, arguably to the point of being another gospel.
Not to worry. We Catholics are not buying the mixed messages - many of which are coming out of Germany. As for the Pope, given the things I have learned about him, I do not trust the media reports. Here, I am the most doubting of "doubting Thomases."
Susanna said @ 2:31 PM ...
ReplyDelete"I would like to respectfully point out that Protestants have been among the first to point out that the Muslim "Allah" is not the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." And they may be right."
"They MAY be right?" Can there really be ANY doubt whatsoever that God the Father is NOT the same as "Allah?" Does it really require a religious body to inform a believer that the God of the Bible and "Allah" are two polar opposites??
Coming from Susanna, a very informed Roman Catholic, this makes for a very depressing, but, revealing statement of faith. Why? Because it is an illustration of just how much in the dark Roman Catholics really are as to Who exactly God is.
The belief that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way, the truth and the life is paramount to the Christian's understanding. He, and He alone is unquestionably unique in every way. Thinking that "Allah" and Him could possibly be one and the same is mind boggling.
In short, there is no "may be right" about it. Allah is NOT the same as the God of the Bible, but is an invention of none other than Satan himself.
And how do you know what is in another man's heart? If you think you know what is in another man's heart after he professes a particular religious belief, then it is you who are either in the dark......or claiming dark powers that can only be called "paranormal".....like the power to gain direct access to the minds of other individuals.
ReplyDeleteAt 2:31 P.M., Susanna wrote:
"The Conciliar statement which has often been misrepresented and/or ignored by the Catholic Church's critics has added a wise caveat which actually reads that "Mohammedans" (Musulmanos) are "professing" to hold the faith of Abraham
Whether or not they actually hold it is arguable, but the Vatican Council is only noting that they ( the Muslims ) claim for their faith that it is that of Abraham, without discussing whether or not Islam actually is an authentically Abrahamic faith."
______________________________________________
Sounds reasonable enough to me.
"Because it is an illustration of just how much in the dark Roman Catholics really are as to Who exactly God is."
ReplyDeleteSo, Ray, The Enlightened One, do tell us just who exactly God is? You must hang around in His courts quite a lot, since you seem to have all the answers, so tell us!
Never mind, I'll tell you. Whoever knows who Jesus Christ is, knows who God the Father is, because whoever has seen the Son has seen the Father who sent him, and whoever knows the Son knows the Father.
For you to say that Roman Catholics are in the dark about who Jesus Christ (and therefore, God) is, is hubris, plain and simple, and shows complete ignorance of 2000 years of church history.
You really should apologize.
To Anonymous @ 8:51 PM ...
ReplyDeleteThe God of the Scriptures is as different from "Allah" as is the Sun in our solar system is to a tiny speck of sand ... actually even more so.
As far as "whoever knows who Jesus Christ is, knows who God the Father is ...." The Devil and his demons also know (according to Scripture) as well. The REAL point is: is "Allah" and the God of Scripture the same? Suppose you tell us. We already know that Susanna thinks that those that say they are NOT the same ... well ... "they MAY be right."
It's not a stretch at all to declare that Susanna thinks "they MAY NOT be right" ... which is VERY revealing.
What does it reveal, Ray?
ReplyDeleteDoes it reveal Susanna's true beliefs, or your twisted version of her beliefs (and Catholics in general) that you set up as a kind of straw man that is so easy to attack?
"The REAL point is: is "Allah" and the God of Scripture the same? Suppose you tell us."
Okay.
Aside from the reason she gave as to why she used to think they were the same is another, which is probably just another way of saying the same thing: It is common to suppose that within their respective faiths, Islam and Judaism refer to the same being - that is, the God of Abraham. And why wouldn't that be a common supposition? Ishmael is the root of the Arab nations, from which sprung Islam.
It is in that sense that the Allah of Islam and the God of the Bible refer to the same being. (Note that I said "refer" to the same being, not that they "are" the same being.)
That the *actual* beings being worshiped in each religion are really enemies - God and Satan - is another thing.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAnd how do you know what is in another man's heart? If you think you know what is in another man's heart after he professes a particular religious belief, then it is you who are either in the dark......or claiming dark powers that can only be called "paranormal".....like the power to gain direct access to the minds of other individuals."
not at all. there are all kinds of subtle and not so subtle indicators. you can read a person from enough slips of words, body language, microgestures, microexpressions, and what they knee jerk react positively or negatively to. Jesus said that out of the treasure of his heart a man speaks.
most of the supposedly paranormal reading by psychics, "cold reading" adds up to nothing more than that. Other times you get a feeling you can't explain that something isn't right. it might be your subconscious recognition of indicators, it might be what the Bible calls the gift of discerning spirits - that's discerning SPIRITS, which is some paranormal gift from God. this is not just a discernment ministry where you use your mind and the Bible and look at what is being written or said, and who hangs out with who. though that can be part of it.
there are too many contradictions with the Bible on historical points including collapsing generations, differences between YHWH and allah for this to be of God.
the Koran even denies the crucifixion claiming Jesus was replaced on the cross by a phantom and taken alive up to heaven. and denial of Christ's divinity and many other things such as the foolish rejection of pork alone but not the whole of unclean meats, and no reason given why. non kosher meat is from an animal that does not split the foot AND chew the cud, things in the water without fins and scales, most insects and bugs except the locust and grasshopper group, predatory birds etc. the Koran says all the Jews' food rules can be ignored except pork. The clean to eat animals incl. birds strongly overlap the clean for sacrifice animals.
"not at all. there are all kinds of subtle and not so subtle indicators. you can read a person from enough slips of words, body language, microgestures, microexpressions, and what they knee jerk react positively or negatively to. Jesus said that out of the treasure of his heart a man speaks.
ReplyDeletemost of the supposedly paranormal reading by psychics, "cold reading" adds up to nothing more than that. Other times you get a feeling you can't explain that something isn't right. it might be your subconscious recognition of indicators, it might be what the Bible calls the gift of discerning spirits - that's discerning SPIRITS, which is some paranormal gift from God
"
Ok armchair general, and Constance Cumbey wannabe, who sees none of those things from us yet judges everything here by your ignorant "indicators". So much for that one. And you are discerning in spiritual matters?????????? Lord, please forgive her and show her what is wrong with her "discernment".
And what your mouth speaks??? Are you sure you want to go there?...
You have made us all to aware of that "abundance" coming from your mouth-from your paranormally influenced ungodly spirit and it's confusion.
Have seen some of your videos. Oh boy.....You need a clue about your own body language--actually language period.
You quote the Bible the way the devil does. Your tactic to do some "front it" to mislead what you are really about doesn't work well for you. The Holy Spirit you kick to the curb is not allowed to teach you or you wouldn't be saying things this ignorant.
You should go back into hiding. Or get ready for buckshot. The confusion you provide in your posts is an easy target.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, 8:51PM
ReplyDeleteThank you.
The Catholic Church didn't get into arguing about whether or not "Allah" was the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. All the Council said was that Muslims CLAIMED to believe in the God of Abraham.
On the one hand, just because someone CLAIMS something doesn't make it true. On the other hand, when someone CLAIMS to profess a particular religious belief, only God can know what it is that the person actually and truly believes. Even if Allah and the God of Abraham are not the same God, no one can assume that the Muslim professing belief in the God of Abraham KNOWS this. Just the fact of a Muslim CLAIMING to believe in the God of Abraham suggests that he does not. And I can say this from experience because I once knew a good Muslim for several years and we had many religious discussions about where Islam agreed and disagreed with Christianity and he always CLAIMED that he believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. What was I supposed to do? Call him a liar?
He never called me a liar when I spoke to him about Jesus Christ and His Passion, Death and Resurrection.
The following article clarifies Catholic teaching on this subject even further:
Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do?
Tim Staples
May 30, 2014
http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do
____________________________________________________________
Muslims, Jews and Christians all acknowledge that there is one God who created the universe and man. The differences between them are all about his character and his actions. "Same god" is not a helpful phrase when understood in that context. Also the use of names (Allah, Jehovah) encourages to make people think that these are distinct volitional beings even though there is only one Creator. A further point of difference among these faiths is whether Jesus of Nazareth is likewise divine. I am writing this post in such a way that hopefully a Muslim, a Jew and a Christian (of any denomination!) can all agree with it.
ReplyDeleteanon 8:42,
ReplyDeleteyes there is only one Creator. But "allah" and Jehovah make wildly contrary statements, so they cannot be the same "volitional being." While Elah in Hebrew
and allah have some background to refer to YHWH and allah basically is "the god" meaning whichever deity you are talking about (and in Meccas the top was huber, an Arabized baal and one ancient Mesopotamian text mentioned an "alla" as one of the "gods."
Basically, The Bible and the Koran were not written by the same "volitional being."
Some muslims on actually reading all the Koran rejected it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy5H0uunC2qMk0iOF4SHKUw
ReplyDeleteActs 17 Apologetics very good refutations of islam, analysis of the Koran, and testimonies of muslims converted to Christ.
Christine (at 8.50am), to clarify, my comment at 8.42am was deliberately restricted so that Christians, Jews and Muslims might all agree with it. Christians and Jews who have thought this through properly take the Allah of the Quran to be the Jehovah of the Old Testament seen through a distorted lens provided by Satan. Muslims in turn claim that both Old and New Testaments have been distorted. ALLAH is simply a concatenation of AL-ILLAH and means "THE god" (ILLAH, Arabic, corresponds to ELOAH, Hebrew, which is the singular of ELOHIM). Fourteen centuries ago "ALLAH" would have been a good translation into Arabic of some of the words for God in the Bible. Today, though, it has acquired too much Islamic baggage.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by saying that "Some muslims on actually reading all the Koran rejected it", please?
a. I already said it means "the god" which also means whatever god you were talking about so in context it can mean any god.
ReplyDeleteb. "allah" is in use to refer to the Christian true God in some Arabic speaking Christian writing and liturgy.
c. What do you mean by saying that "Some muslims on actually reading all the Koran rejected it", please?
I mean exactly what I said. A lot of muslims have not read it all only snippets given by the mullahs, or written on a wall as calligraphic art.
Here is an example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4Q8bImiPCM Ex-Muslim Mona Walter Left Islam After Reading the Quran
Stop being spiky Christine, I was not disagreeing with you but explaining myself further and asking a question because your words were not clear. The definition of a Muslim is someone who accepts the Quran as what it claims to be. (It claims to be the word of the Creator God.) When you say that "Some muslims on actually reading all the Koran rejected it", I guess you are meaning that they ceased to be Muslims upon reading it and understanding what it was claiming. But that wasn't clear from what you wrote.
ReplyDeleteWell, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. rejecting the Koran would mean rejecting islam. some of these people turn atheist. some heretical groups have done the allegorizing spiritualizing approach to sidestep things in islam (which are not only in the Koran but the hadiths and the schools of shariah that derived from these) and develop a more liberal form. These were often forced to live underground so to speak in most places because standard islam persecuted them, until western forces broke islam as a political power. but increasingly modern Islamic states have persecution of Christians and kill those who leave islam. while this is often technically illegal, the police and prosecution turn a blind eye, in some cases shariah is applied which of course means things like a kidnapped Christian girl is the rightful wife of her "husband" to who she was married under duress after being raped and beaten and she is technically now a muslim because a woman's religion, regardless of what she herself says, is legally that of her husband or her father.
ReplyDeleteOn the latter point, there was a situation a few years back where someone was in danger of being killed for apostasy, because her (I think it was a woman) father was muslim, but she was always Christian and was challenged on this and still publicly claimed Christianity.
For the sake of argument lets say all faiths have the same God.
ReplyDeleteOne needs next to look at the mediator of their faith?
ALL faiths? many of them do not claim to have the same God as Christianity and Judaism and some of them announce they have many gods. most will acknowledge in theory a most high God Who is fairly inaccessible for whatever reason.
ReplyDeleteDan, that's two strikes you're a new ager. one is reincarnation, now all faiths have the same God. Granted you said "for the sake of argument" but it doesn't work too well. because if you are used to how someone writes and sounds, and then you see something under their name but very different and its all wrong you can figure it isn't from that person.
same thing with islam and Mormonism vs. Christianity and the OT.
Christianity's God is Triune, one of which became flesh without ceasing to be divine, died for us and rose from the dead. Islam denies all of this. Triunity is hinted at in the OT especially Isa. 48:16, but islam flat out denies it and denies Jesus as divine. Since The God of Christianity includes Jesus, islam does not have the same God.
who the mediator is to the most high God, is established now as Jesus Christ, and if by mediator you mean prophet, then mohammed doesn't fit the bill because of all the contrasts with the Bible. (even the idea that Constantine paganized Christianity began with a moslem apologist. meanwhile Acts 17 has a video showing that the Koran contradicts itself, saying that the scriptures of Jews and Christians are all true then saying they are altered, so obviously they aren't true if altered.)
Blogger Christine Erikson (aka Justina) said...
ReplyDeleteBlessings
Here are a few Scriptures (not opinions) regarding this ... "is Allah the same "god" as that of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob controversy:
ReplyDelete"All the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens." Psalm 96:5
"I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord: and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:10,11
"I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me ..." Isaiah 45:5 & 9
"Thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me." Hosea 13:4
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God ..." John 17:3
"There is none other God but one ..." I Corinthians 8:4
"THERE IS ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS ..."
I Timothy 2:5
"Who is God save the Lord? or who is a rock save our God?" Psalm 18:31
Anonymous RayB said...2:35 PM
ReplyDeleteHere are a few Scriptures
RayB you might also add:
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev 1:18
So now all know who it is that is that ROCK, MEDIATOR, and KEY holder!
How many times have we been through this?
ReplyDeleteAllah is NOT the same God. Just because they trace their roots back to Abraham means NOTHING because-
According to the Quran, Muslims believe Jesus was NOT on the cross and that God transformed someone else to be on the cross in His place.
This is totally blasphemous to DENY the crucifixion!
And they also believe that when Jesus returns he will basically answer to the Mahdi in helping him rid the world of non believers- meaning if your not Muslim then, you are in big trouble.
Does that sound like the same God?!?!
Some of you should know better when playing dumb about answering this question.
And for those who are trying to be politically correct with your statements regarding this- look it up if you don't believe me.
You will then know for sure Allah is NOT the same God and have no excuse in the future when the question is brought up.
It is COMPLETELY BLASPHEMOUS to even think they may be the same God.
Amen Dan ! Amen Anonymous!
ReplyDeleteThere is NO ROCK save our God ... NO Key holder other than Christ ... NO mediator other than Christ!
See for yourself. Via this OFFICIAL VATICAN video, Rome declares all religions have validity and basically worship the same "god." By the way, this position is considered blasphemy even by conservative, traditional Catholics. When John Paul II promulgated this same message, he was widely criticized by traditional Catholics.
ReplyDeleteOfficial Vatican video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6FfTxwTX34
Ray,
ReplyDeleteThis is Anon@8.43am. I am an evangelical Bible-believing Christian and I don't know if any of your comments are aimed at me. If someone asks me "Are Allah and Jehovah the same God?" my reply is always this: I believe there is no Being who created the universe and has the character and did the deeds attributed to Allah in the Quran (except where these are also as in the Bible). I believe the creator has the character and did all the deeds spoken of in the Bible, and that Jesus of Nazareth is his divine son.
Can you see why I refuse to answer Yes or No to the question put to me? Have you any objection to my position?
To Anonymous @ 8:43 AM / 6:00 PM ...
ReplyDeleteI did not direct any of my comments to you, or with you in mind in particular. Having said that, after the above post I read your 8:42 AM statement.
Standing upon Scripture alone, the only "God" that is "known" today is that One as revealed only through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Here is a verse in John 8:19 where Jewish "believers" are discoursing with Jesus: "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
Note here that Jesus clearly declares that these religious Jews DID NOT KNOW His Father. If they "did not know" His Father, surely they are not worshiping the true Father. Today, there are many that make the claim that religious Jews believe in the same God as Christians do. This is not true, because without KNOWING Jesus Christ, one CANNOT believe in the true Father. Along with that, in John 14:6 Jesus clearly declares that He is the ONLY WAY to the Father.
The very same holds true for Muslims, Hindus, Jehovah Witnesses, etc., etc. They do not believe in Jesus Christ, do not recognize His ultimate authority, and therefore do NOT know the true "God," but rather are followers of a false religious "god."
BVS @ 5:05 PM ...
ReplyDeleteI meant to say "Amen" to your statement, but mistakenly wrote "Anonymous" instead.
I agree with your statement 100% ...
"It is COMPLETELY BLASPHEMOUS to even think they may be the same God."
RayB I agree with you. But many don't know the details like we do.
ReplyDeleteRay,
ReplyDeleteJust like you I refuse to say "Allah is Jehovah". But I also refuse to say "Allah is not Jehovah", because even to start a sentence with the words "Allah is..." implies the existence of the Allah of the Quran, ie a deity who created the world yet has no son. (Thew Quran denies Christ's Sonship.) As a Christian I believe that no such god exists. This is all I am saying, and is why I don't answer Yes or No to the question "Is Allah Jehovah?" but say instead that to read of the Creator you must read the Bible, and to know him you must know his Son Jesus Christ. Are you with me, Brother?
I don't simply disagree with Islam. I hate it. I hate the K'ruin and I hate that big black
ReplyDeletebox called the caba which contains a meteorite which they say is some kind of mystical
thing from heaven. Talk about idols! It's a piece of iron that looks like a big potato,
(although a potato would have some practical use), unlike this piece of space debris.
The Q'ruin says that "God has no son" and that it's blasphemous to even suggest that he does.
The K'ruin was not translated into any other language until relatively recently, and that
against their will.
Likewise the Jews say we are nothing less than infidels and fools for believing in Jesus.
The Talmud says that Jesus was the illlegitimate son of a hairdresser named Miriam and a
Roman soldier. The Talmud was strictly an oral tradition until Jesus came to earth
and accomplished his mission and went back to the right hand of God Almighty. Not too long
after that Christianity began to spread like wildfire in a world which at that point knew nothing about
freedom, or forgiveness or sins, or compassion for one's enemies; (Good News) That's when they decided
that they'd better put all this venemous animosity in print and publish it, albeit to Jews only. They managed
to keep it in Hebrew language for the next fifteen hundred years and kept it illegal to translate
into any other language all the way up to this present computer age, when they couldn't keep it
secret any longer.
Today Christians are being told that they must accept the notion that all religions are
trying to reach the same God, and that if we don't accept that, that we are bigots and small
minded, and that we should be marginalized at best and slaughtered at worst.
But it's Moslems who are busy every day torturing, raping and murdering Christians. There is no
equivalent Christian activity being perpetrated against them. Nothing even close or similar.
This could only be happening in an extremely dumbed-down illiterate world.
Shoebat, (for what he's worth), has pointed out that most of the Islamist extremists are illiterate.
They are getting all their information from the internet in graphic videos which are always
voiced over in read-it-to-me fashion.
I don't hate Moslems. I consider them fools.
But I do hate Islam. It's a hate-filled murderous pack of lies.
There is no alluh and mummit is no prophet of anything.
Looks like the ISIS stronghold of Raqqa is being attacked, and the commander of the attack is a Kurdish woman who learned from Bismarck and Napoleon. with that kind of tactical sense, ISIS is doomed in its HQ. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/world/revolutionary-kurdish-feminist-leads-assault-on-raqqa-29kdsrgpc
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous @ 3:52 AM ...
ReplyDeleteI am in agreement with you, because I too believe their "god" is nothing other than a Satanic invention and deception. I can't see how anyone that names the Name of Christ could disagree with that obvious truth. Which makes the following, taken directly from the Official Catechism of the Catholic Church quite astonishing (but not surprising):
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
CCC 841 also references Vatican II's Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Nostra Aetate, 3, that makes the teaching of the Council perhaps even clearer:
ReplyDelete"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God."
Once again, we see first the declaration that Muslims "adore the one God..." made without qualification. Then, the fathers say "Islam link[s] itself" to Abraham. This is not saying there is a link; rather, it is saying Muslim make that link. Once again, we have two clearly distinct declarations.
http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do
The Church doesn't teach that Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. They in fact believe in the God taught to them by Muhammed who claimed was revealed by an angel.
The Church teaches that Muslims 'claim' to believe in the God of Abraham. Since the God they believe in was not taught to them from a tradition handed down from Abraham it can only be said that they claim to believe in the God of Abraham.
I can say I recieved revelation from heaven and claim it is a teaching from the same God Abraham worshipped but who could say it really is? And that is the point implied by the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
however you spin it, the problem is that the Catechism says "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;" which would imply they don't need Jesus. And how can it be said
ReplyDeletethe are in the first place? Surely Jews should be in the first place and islam
second.
Anonymous @ 4:16 said ... in part ...
ReplyDelete"I can say I recieved revelation from heaven and claim it is a teaching from the same God Abraham worshipped but who could say it really is? And that is the point implied by the Catechism of the Catholic Church."
RayB said to Anonymous: "... who could say it really is?" Applying your logic, we cannot "judge" Mormonism's Joseph Smith either (or ANY false prophet), because Smith also claimed "revelation from heaven." This is what happens when people deny the absolute authority of God's Word, and in its place, rely upon the false authority of men. By this method, the ultimate result is having no standard at all by which to make spiritual judgments as to what is true and what is false.
Anonymous also said:
"The Church doesn't teach that Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. They in fact believe in the God taught to them by Muhammed who claimed was revealed by an angel."
Again, from the Official Catechism:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
This falsely claims that the "plan of salvation" includes those that "acknowledge the Creator (which the Scriptures declare to be JESUS CHRIST ... which ISLAM REJECTS TOTALLY)." Furthermore, the "faith of Abraham" is that which is centered in Jesus Christ (as clearly declared and explained in Paul's Epistle to the Galatians and in Romans).
In contradiction to God's Word, the Catholic Catechism clearly declares that Muslims "WITH US, ADORE THE ONE, merciful God." It can't get any plainer than that. The Catechism IS in fact declaring Catholics and Muslims "ADORE" the same "God."
Constance, I got Einhorn's book, reading it now, deconstructing it. This guy had
ReplyDeletea lot of influence beyond Earth Day, the notion of information replacing the market
is in this, now the big deal with the information revolution, but in reality information is about something relevant to the market which now operates online.
I am already acquainted with Gurdjieff from my earlier days, and I recognize this and Teilhard stuff. will give you a report or file it on my blog. I think the latter. This guy is subtly pushing elitism of a sort.
Thanks RayB, for keeping it simple, clear cut and on point. The author of confusion wants this topic and issue mushy and ill-defined so people will swallow the lies and meanwhile seem "gracious" doing it. Lies are so destructive. Why don't people want to expose them and face them? I know I had to.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZxB8Kzj2M&feature=youtu.be
ReplyDeleteRayB
ReplyDeleteAgain, the Catholic Church is simply describing what the Muslims CLAIM to believe, ( i.e. the God of Abraham )without getting into a debate about whether or not the Muslims' claims are true.
I am sorry that the teachings of the Catholic Church do not conform to your narrative, but you are not going to get away with misrepresenting what the Catholic church actually teaches.
In the Catechism where it says "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;" the Church is referring to NON CHRISTIANS. The full text from which the passage in the Catechism is taken reads:
November 21, 1964
"16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention....."read more..... ( Lumen Gentium Pope Paul VI )
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
_____________________________________________________
cont...
cont...
ReplyDeleteGiving your opinion of what you IMAGINE the Catholic Church teaches doesn't make it so either. And those Scripture passages you presented earlier at 2:35 PM prove nothing against Islam. They are merely YOUR private interpretation and as such they ARE your opinion. Actually, Muslims would probably claim to agree with most of those passages from the Old Testament.
Again, the key issue here is about what the Muslims "CLAIM" to believe, and not about whether or not the Catholic Church necessarily agrees with them. If the Muslims claim to believe in the God of Abraham, the Catholic Church is not about to presume to know what is in their minds and hearts..
If all religions have a certain validity, it is not because "all gods are equal and alike." It is in the sense that even if people through no fault of their own have been mistaken in the OBJECT of their worship, they are not mistaken in their belief that worship should be directed to SOMEONE.
As for the "fruits" of Islam, there are bad ones to be sure. But we must not allow them to blind us to the good fruits. It was the Muslims who stood shoulder to shoulder with Pope John Paul II and the Roman Catholic Church against the UN attempt to promote abortion internationally at the Cairo Conference - a.k.a. the United Nations-sponsored International Conference on Population and Development in September in Cairo. in Egypt in 1994.
http://www.catholicleague.org/abortion-the-u-s-government-and-the-pope/
ReplyDeletecont.
Regarding the part of Lumen Gentium that reads: "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."
The Catholic Church teaches that if such people attain to salvation, their salvation will necessarily have been through with and in Jesus Christ whether they realize it or not and regardless of the subjectively held theological beliefs of these individuals throughout the course of their earthly existence.
anonymous catechism defendr,
ReplyDeletethere are some problems here. first off you have no trouble knowing what's in their minds and hearts because their words and actions make it clear.
secondly, relating them to the God of Abraham doesn't change the fact that they are not by blood, conversion or even self claiming, any kind of Israelite, they even claim that it was Ishmael not Isaac who was almost sacrificed, so they don't fit in the plan of salvation by being Jewish.
"If all religions have a certain validity, it is not because "all gods are equal and alike." It is in the sense that even if people through no fault of their own have been mistaken in the OBJECT of their worship, they are not mistaken in their belief that worship should be directed to SOMEONE. "
The problem precisely is to WHO the worship is directed. Paul said in Acts that God
had overlooked in the past the wrong ascription of agricultural advantages but now commands all to repent
Jesus indicates degrees of damnation. that Sodom and Gomorrha would have it better because they would have repented if given the opportunities some cities had because
of His miracles and didn't repent. Some category of hypocrite would receive the greater damnation so by definition there is a lesser damnation.
And Matthew 25 and the parable of the sower show judgement and punishments on believers and some cast out altogether. Things aren't as simple as protestants make it out.
So if "the plan of salvation" is lesser damnation mitigated by reward for some good done, then yeah I suppose....but that's not the same as being part of God's household.
From the front page of yesterday's Times newspaper, London (May 27):
ReplyDeleteEU ARMY PLAN KEPT SECRET FROM VOTERS - DETAILS OF BRUSSELS POWER GRAB BURIED UNTIL DAY AFTER [BRITISH] REFERENDUM.
"To prevent the policy paper leaking and derailing David Cameron's campaign to keep Britain in the EU, the plans will not be sent to national governments until the day after Britons vote. Until then the Global Strategy on Foreign and Security Policy can be read by only a small circle of EU political and security committee ambassadors, who must leave all their electronic devices outside a sealed room... Federica Mogherini, head of foreign policy in the EU, has spent 18 months preparing a defence document for discussion by EU leaders at a summit on June 28, the week after the referendum."
Such a sad fact. There are many humans but little humanity to show. Thanks for the great expose.
ReplyDeleteAnon. 5:01 am....
ReplyDeleteIf I were a Brit, that would make me want to vote "EXIT" all the more!
Christine 10:43 PM
ReplyDeleteRE:"there are some problems here. first off you have no trouble knowing what's in their minds and hearts because their words and actions make it clear."
Wrong! Their words and actions do not necessarily make it clear as to whether the content of their minds and hearts are present through ignorance or malice. Only God can know this. We cannot.
****************
Re:""If all religions have a certain validity, it is not because "all gods are equal and alike." It is in the sense that even if people through no fault of their own have been mistaken in the OBJECT of their worship, they are not mistaken in their belief that worship should be directed to SOMEONE. "
The problem precisely is to WHO the worship is directed. Paul said in Acts that God
had overlooked in the past the wrong ascription of agricultural advantages but now commands all to repent"
********************************
If you had carefully read what I wrote, you would have seen that I indicated that they MAY HAVE BEEN MISTAKEN ( i.e. through ignorance )in the object of their worship.
St. Paul also commended the religious - albeit mistaken - zeal of pagans who set up an altar to the "unknown god" in order not to neglect any "deity" whom they may have missed and who might be entitled to worship by them. Paul, knowing that whatever was true in the religions of the pagans was a "preparation for the Gospels," used the altar with the “unknown god” inscription as a “launch pad” to share the fullness of God’s truth found in the Gospels. Because of the fact that the Jewish God could not be named, it is possible that Paul's Athenian audience would have considered his god to be "the unknown god par excellence". In this way, Paul shared the gospel with the Athenians in a way that was relevant, sensitive and uncompromising to the truth.
And here is a thing that must be understood about truth. Truth can never be "created" by man. If it is natural truth, it can only be discovered by man, not created. If it is Supernatural truth, it can only be revealed by God. And if something is objectively true, it is going to be true no matter who discovers it, for you, for me, at all times and in all places.
This is why the truths found in the NATURAL PHILOSOPHY (not theology) of what the Church Fathers referred to as the "wise heathen" (i.e. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle) were acknowledged as valid by the Fathers and Doctors of the Church who at the same time rejected as false the idolatrous worship of these same pagans.
For example, it was Aristotle who codified many of the axiomatic first principles of natural philosophy such as "things equal to the same thing are equal to each other" or as is more commonly known "If A=B and B=C, then A=C".....the foundation of syllogistic logic.
cont...
cont..
ReplyDeleteThe usual way that man came to believe that a truth was supernatural because revealed by God was the fact that revealed truths were accompanied by the kind of miracles that even the pagans ( i.e. the Egyptians ) had to acknowledge as originating from a Deity infinitely more powerful than theirs......bogus pagan signs and wonders notwithstanding. In the New Testament, Jesus' miracles which culminated in His rising from the dead and the powers granted to the Apostles after Christ's Ascension and the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost would have been a tough act for any pagan to follow.
Now the Church Fathers taught that all pagan worship involved the worship of demons. But even among pagans a distinction was made between religion and magic.
Many pagan cultures had laws against black magic. For example, in ancient Rome black magic was punished as a capital offence by the Law of the Twelve Tables, which are to be assigned to the 5th century BC, and, as Livy records, from time to time Draconian statutes were directed against those who attempted to blight crops and vineyards or to spread disease among flocks and cattle.
Nowhere is this distinction in paganism between religion and magic better portrayed than in G.K. Chesterton's excellent book EVERLASTING MAN in the Chapter entitled The War Between the Gods and the Demons.......a.k.a. the Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage. You can read it here:
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/chesterton/everlasting/part1c7.htm
"RE:"there are some problems here. first off you have no trouble knowing what's in their minds and hearts because their words and actions make it clear."
ReplyDeleteWrong! Their words and actions do not necessarily make it clear as to whether the content of their minds and hearts are present through ignorance or malice. Only God can know this. We cannot."
While it is possible to make misstatements or so present your words or self due to cultural or other issues as to give a false impression, the words of the Koran, and the words and actions of those who study it and hadiths and accept shariah do indeed tell what is in their hearts, though those who secretly feel uncomfortable will jump at a chance to evade it.
OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST SAID THAT OUT OF THE TREASURE OF HIS HEART A MAN SPEAKETH.
that refutes your position.
"If you had carefully read what I wrote, you would have seen that I indicated that they MAY HAVE BEEN MISTAKEN ( i.e. through ignorance )in the object of their worship."
I saw it and I addressed it. Paul said that God overlooked this wrong direction of gratitude for things in the past but now commands all to repent. Paul noted they had left out a god (actually a catchall commemoration for any missed) and proclaimed Him YHWH Jesus Christ as the True God, starting where they were and going from there.
(the sort of thing my detractors call teaching occultism. on its own out of context Paul looks like he is commending paganism and polytheism, but he is just making nice
and starting where they are. and he can "talk their language" (like I am denounced
for doing in those posts on some occultist egroup) since he quotes a pagan poet who
is referring to "zeus" when Paul says that in Him we live and move and have our
being, and refers this to YHWH instead of zeus, this being clear in that he has
already denounced the worship of all of the false gods and presented the true God.
This falls back on the lesser damnation scenario this muslim thing. Jesus said that those who are taught by His Father will come to Him (specific chapter and verse I
forget) and some among the muslims do so, some do seem to be crypto Christians or
at least syncretistic and many pray at shrines of Christian saints and of Mary.
The possibility of Christ meeting some at death and being accepted by them as God
in the flesh, exists of course.
regarding second part of your post, black magic was prohibited because inconvenient for the victims and these might include authorities and others. there were various "gods" that were too much for the more civilized pagans.
ReplyDeleteExodus says a mixed multitude came out of Egypt with the Israelites and Moses, so obviously a lot of Egyptians heard what all the oddities were about, and/or noticed the lack of this happening to the Hebrews, and sided with them.
As for Punic Wars, motives were varied and partly a conflict of culture partly a rivalry and yes there are pagan cultures or were that were more inclined to good than to evil. The Romans and Greeks drew a sharp distinction between "gods" and men and the only overlap was the "hero" a hybrid. the process of divinizing humans was for a time until the emperor worship started brought to a halt, and an important concept brought into play.
that, regardless of whether something belonged in the category of divine or not, there IS a category that is divine, and it is wholly distinct from the creation and category of human. this is anti pantheist and anti divine nature acquisition by man. This sharp distinction between creature and Creator is compatible with the world view of the Bible. Peter twice speaks of Jesus preaching to the dead and probably still does so as Revelation says He has the keys of death and of hades. But the issue is what are the muslims directed to now?
the human heart is a deceptive pit that is hard to fathom. God speaks of giving humans a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone so clearly, a person's heart could be discerned, yet it could be changed later. So a person once diagnosed as hopeless who later converts and repents is not proof that the earlier view of him was incorrect and you can't know the heart. God might have changed his heart.
Dear 10:30 AM
ReplyDeleteThe problem remains though what RayB first pointed out, all other considerations aside.
That blanket statement totally blurs the lines about the Gospel. from the Official Catechism:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]
So what if people acknowledge the same Creator (called by differing names)? Yes, a good launch point but The Qualifier for those entering heaven is still Jesus Christ Alone and that official catechism is giving a pass to Muslims (and others according to the current pope) when they don't have one when staying within their "faith". The Lord, because He is merciful, sees to it that any heart (and He alone really knows all hearts) that is willing to turn from their own way to His, will find the path.
The devil believes in the Creator, too. But he won't repent and call Jesus Christ Lord......no salvation for him or anyone else of that frame of heart and mind because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Life has been given to all to let us live out our choice about Who is really God. Romans 1 tells us how the world has gotten the knowledge of God from the beginning until now, but largely rejects that understanding for their own "way" (all we like sheep in Isaiah 53)---therefore people have no excuse.
Furthermore lots and lots of people who say the name Jesus in reality, don't actually know Him because they trust their beliefs about Him without truly repenting and believing Him. Only a remnant from among all the world's people will be saved. God knows those that are His (we don't).
Christine 10:45 AM
ReplyDeleteRE:"OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST SAID THAT OUT OF THE TREASURE OF HIS HEART A MAN SPEAKETH.
that refutes your position."
Really? And if a Muslim sincerely believes in his heart that the God he worships is the God of Abraham, who are you to decide that he does not? Who are you to say that he is necessarily an evil person? It is possible for a Muslim or any other person - including yourself - to be "sincerely wrong"....as charitably implied in Lumen Gentium and elsewhere.
You have not "refuted my position." Actually, you have helped to make my case for me.
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Anonymous 11:19 AM
Re:"That blanket statement totally blurs the lines about the Gospel. from the Official Catechism:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]"
**********************
First....it is not a blanket statement. It is actually TWO statements as indicated by the semi-colon between the two statements. The Muslims acknowledge the Creator. They profess to hold the faith of Abraham. The only ones for whom this statement allegedly "blurs the lines of the Gospels" are the Church's critics.
The Muslims are monotheistic and they acknowledge the Creator. They also CLAIM to profess belief in the God of Abraham. Taking someone at his word is not the same thing as agreeing or "giving someone a pass." It simply acknowledges that we cannot know what only God can know - namely whether or not the God of Abraham the Muslims CLAIM to worship actually IS the God of Abraham.
If you want to presume to think that you CAN know this, fine. But you cannot prove that a Muslim does NOT worship the God of Abraham after the Muslim himself claims that he does. Hey. I am not denying the POSSIBILITY that the God the Muslims profess to believe in is not the God of Abraham. What I am saying is that for either of us to claim that he does not without proof beyond a reasonable doubt is to bear false witness. This would be analogous to my saying that the Jesus you CLAIM to believe in as a "non-Catholic Christian" is not the same Jesus I believe in as a Catholic Christian or vice - versa since this line of reasoning can cut both ways.
RE:" The devil believes in the Creator, too. But he won't repent and call Jesus Christ Lord......no salvation for him or anyone else of that frame of heart and mind because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life
***********************************
Apparently, you didn't read what I posted before posting your own talking points. You really should. Because then you would have seen how I carefully pointed out that the Church - in total conformity with Scripture - does indeed QUALIFY that salvation is exclusively in Jesus Christ whether the non-Christian thinks so or not and that whatever is true in the non-Christian religions is a "preparation for the Gospels." And what are the Gospels? The "Good News" about the salvation won for us by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by His Passion, Death and Resurrection.
By the way. Have you actually ever read the Quran? Have you ever actually had religious discussions with a devout Muslim?
Church doesn't save, Jesus Christ does, so no big church "blanket" is needed to fix the problem. Muslims believing in the Creator God of Abraham still fall short. All fall short (Romans 3:23) until God brings them in through His Son. HE does know how to get that done and without us, thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteIf you truly believe the Good News and leave it at, then not one of us needs to give apologetic answers for it. Sorry, but that catechism statement has a big loophole in it that is not presented in the Bible. A christian is one who believes the Good news with no apology so that is the qualifier fitting anyone for heaven. Any person--turning away from any "faith" to turn to that exclusive faith in Jesus--will live eternally with Him. We should be praying the lost into the kingdom, not trying to find another entry for anybody, only pointing them the way to The Door Himself! That is the long and short of that.
The Gospel is enough all on it's own. I won't be reading the quran, as I have the truth right in fron of me in those 66 books of the Holy Canon of Scripture which is God-breathed and yes, I have discussed this with a devout Muslim who was full of questions about the need for forgiveness which her "faith" didn't have an answer for. The Open Door was shown her to walk through, but she was trying to find a way to believe in Jesus and still stay Muslim to keep from upsetting her family. We can't have it both ways, though. The disciples left all and followed-----period.
And with that, this enough on this subject for me.
"Apparently, you didn't read what I posted before posting your own talking points. You really should. Because then you would have seen how I carefully pointed out that the Church - in total conformity with Scripture - does indeed QUALIFY that salvation is exclusively in Jesus Christ whether the non-Christian thinks so or not"
ReplyDeleteyes I did read what you wrote but there is no way to "qualify" an absolute statement like "the plan of salvation includes" muslims. Either it does or it doesn't. Muslims deny every essential point of the Gospel and present an alternative therefore false gospel, that allegiance to mohammed as the final and highest prophet is the way of salvation.
the only way you can qualify it is to argue maybe the better muslims (not by muslim standards of course) will meet Jesus and accept Him at death.
there is no way to qualify that the plan of salvation includes them. What you call qualification is in fact contradiction.
either Christ meaning The Second PErson of the Trinity truly physically incarnate, truly died to atone for our sins, the Passover Lamb for the world, and truly physically rose from the dead is the only way, or He isn't. And muslims deny all these essential points, and deny the Resurrection since they deny the crucifixion!
"Really? And if a Muslim sincerely believes in his heart that the God he worships is the God of Abraham, who are you to decide that he does not?"
now you show your subjectivism. who am I to decide such a thing? someone who can read and think.
Suppose someone told you that they really like this person who you also like, but give a totally different description of personality, style of talk, and even claim that that person's son is a mere friend and that that person never had a son and never claimed to have a son and that the friend of the person never claimed to be that person's son, though you know that the person does have a son because you met them both and talked with them and they both claim parent son relationship.
well, who are you to decide this person isn't liking the same person you are liking?
Anon 2:24 PM
ReplyDeleteRe:If you truly believe the Good News and leave it at, then not one of us needs to give apologetic answers for it......
1Peter 3:15 would beg to differ with that comment:
"15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,"
Faith without reason is fideism which is defined by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy as the idea that “reason is unnecessary and inappropriate for the exercise and justification of religious belief”. Fideism destroys the faith of many because when they are asked to give an answer for what they believe (1 Peter 3:15), they simply respond, “I just believe it,” without giving any additional evidence for their faith. “Just believe and you will be saved” is perhaps the most common profession of fideism in the denominational world.
God has made us rational creatures–it is part of what it means to be created in His image–and when we deny rationality, we are also denying an essential part of what it means to be human.
Re:" Sorry, but that catechism statement has a big loophole in it that is not presented in the Bible."
According to your rule of faith ("Bible only"), not mine.
I will leave it at that.
"Re:" Sorry, but that catechism statement has a big loophole in it that is not presented in the Bible."
ReplyDeleteAccording to your rule of faith ("Bible only"), not mine.
I will leave it at that."
Trouble is that statement has a big loophole in it that is not hitherto
presented in your rule of faith either.
"Re:, If you truly believe the Good News and leave it at that, then not one of us needs to give apologetic answers for it."
ReplyDelete"If you truly believe the Good News and leave it at that" is what I'm making reference to-the fact that the Gospel is open and shut in Jesus needing no additions to it, no subtractions from it, that make an apology for it's cleanness and righteousness when you should-it stands on it's own merit.
You jumped to what you only think I said.
But whatever..I leave it at that too.
@ 3:13PM
ReplyDeletemeant: should not (make apology)-it stands on it's own merit.
PERIOD.
Christine 2"51 PM
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting that YOU should say such things considering the fact that the Greek Orthodox Church has pretty much the same things to say about the Muslims claim to worship.
*************
"While in Mecca, though he condemned paganism (for the most part), Muhammad showed great respect for the monotheism of the Christian and Jewish inhabitants. Indeed, the Allah of the Quran claimed to be the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians, who now revealed himself to the Arab people through his chosen messenger, Muhammad."
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/islam-101.aspx
***********************************
"Islam is a heresy, according to Saint John of Damascus in his "Critique of Islam":
"There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, who was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: 'Sara hath sent me away destitute.' These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great. And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration."
Islam is one of the major world religions with an estimated 1.3 billion followers worldwide [1]. The name Islam comes from an Arabic term meaning submission, a reference to the central belief that the goal of religion, or of a true believer, is submission to God's will. Adherents of Islam are referred to as Muslims.
Islam teaches that God (in Arabic, Allah) revealed his direct word and commands for mankind to Muhammad (c. 570–632) in the form of the Qur'an (also Koran), and to other prophets (including Adam, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus), many of whom are Biblical figures shared with Christianity and Judaism. Despite admitting the ministry of prophets earlier than Muhammad, Islam asserts that the primary written record of God's revelation to humankind is the Qur'an, which Muslims believe to be flawless, immutable, and the final revelation of God.
Islam has been termed one of the three Abrahamic religions, along with Christianity and Judaism. At times, the Bahá'í Faith is also included." ............
https://orthodoxwiki.org/Islam
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Anonymous 3:13 PM
ReplyDeleteRe: "If you truly believe the Good News and leave it at that" is what I'm making reference to-the fact that the Gospel is open and shut in Jesus needing no additions to it, no subtractions from it, that make an apology for it's cleanness and righteousness when you should-it stands on it's own merit."
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A perfect example of fideism.
....when asked to give an answer for what they believe (1 Peter 3:15), they simply respond, “I just believe it,” without giving any additional evidence for their faith. “Just believe and you will be saved” is perhaps the most common profession of fideism in the denominational world.
Dear 3:27 PM
ReplyDeleteI don't care what you call it. This is not "I just believe it"--I believe Jesus.
He is not an "it".
My faith is in Christ-His Gospel. His Sinless Life, Sacrificial Death, Burial and Resurrection that provided my salavtion (and keeps me saved too) I need nothing else to explain that--and I most certainly share Him with others.
He is Savior enough and He is Lord enough because He is the Alpha and Omega of all of this. How is it that you keep missing The Point?
I did not realize you were asking what the Gospel actually is, because I can certainly show you the plan of salvation from Scripture, so I was trusting that you already knew what that, but I guess not.
You quoted it.......shouldn't you just stick to it then? Maybe Jesus isn't God enough for you and needs a lot of explaining?
You have a Bible and an intellect as you said, (just as I do but I've added faith to mine) so surely you can get this reconciled with Him.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/05/28/the-secret-eu-army-is-a-dangerous-delusion/
ReplyDeletethe orthodox statement was that "allah" claimed to be the same god as the God of Abraham. The earlier phase of Islamic expansion sometimes was easier on Christians sometimes not. St. John of Damascus was a court official of some sort like Daniel was in Babylon.
ReplyDeleteThat statement was merely recording the facts of history. it id not state that the religions are equivalent.
ORthodoxy does not have the monolithic magisterium effect of RC when errors develop they get addressed sooner or later. disputes exist right now over several issues. The advantage of course is that when error does creep in, it can't proliferate as easily as in your case. the Catechism problem we are discussing is a case in point.
No Orthodox catechism would say that islam is part of the plan of salvation.
notice it also says "islam asserts" not that this could possibly be in fact the case. To say these are Abrahamic religions is merely to agree they all claim Abraham.
ReplyDeleteThe Jews received a revelation from God, several progressively. they clung to that, some accepted Jesus and those who didn't are stuck in the past system from God. Islam however is a half ass throwback.
no way would God reveal that Jesus isn't to be worshipped, that He didn't die on the Cross (therefore didn't Resurrect) etc. No way would God decree that pork be not eaten when He had already revealed that in the New Covenant anything could be eaten.
Clearly islam is false, and what spoke to Mohammed was not an angel.
Brothers Esau and Jacob were both of Abraham and certainly did not agree. One got the birthright, the other tossed it away for a bowl of beans...
ReplyDeleteSurely in these two sons, is an understanding to show us a graphic in that picture of faith rightly placed by one--though limited and faulty but acknowledged by the Lord for that time frame with further fulfillment later revealed in Christ Himself, The Promise spoken of in Scripture--but the other an illustration of unbelief. That should suffice to put this issue to bed.
This is ancient understanding that plays right up to the here and now so all the facts are in. People will believe what they choose and people build whole cultures to support Who they think God is. Talk about graphic......
God says choose. The majority in the world don't want the Lord because we would wake up in an altogether different world if they did. This is playing out just as the Lord has scripted it in the many parallels that beg our attention. The way all of this is very ramped up in our day and time, it is telling us this is the final lap and then God will be removing all doubt about Who He is. so many would rather argue (to the point of bloodshed even for some) than deal head on with what is really on the world's plate.
Anonymous 3:57
ReplyDeleteHow is it that YOU keep missing the point? If you personally believe in Jesus, that is wonderful. I believe in Him too - contrary to what you are implying.
But if you are trying to PERSUADE someone else to believe in Him - especially if that "sopmeone else" is an intelligent non-Christian - waving the Bible in his face, quoting Scripture and claiming that "the Gospel is enough all on it's own" is not going to be as credible or as convincing as providing solid extra-biblical grounds for your beliefs such as concrete historical evidence - especially since the Bible does not interpret itself, teach "sola Scriptura," "private interpretation," or which books belong in the Bible in the first place.
A Christianity that requires a person to park his brains at the door and not use the reasoning faculties that God gave him is FIDEISM which maintains that faith is independent of reason, and/or that reason and faith are hostile to each other. Fideism can lead to relativism.......and ultimately the very kind of spiritual anarchy that Martin Luther himself lamented - even though it originated with him!
Dear 10:20 PM
ReplyDeleteLet me put it this way:
It isn't our job to persuade anyone. Could be what you might be missing here. That is the work of God's Spirit. I know that mine is to live out my faith and share it with Scripture and in addition, some of my own words too, when called for, that is my faith and my reasoning with just such as you mentioned, both available for God to use to speak this subject, just as in that instance with my Muslim friend I mentioned. That is why I spoke of Esau and Jacob, as it isn't hard to see the biblical history but also how that has led up to where things stand currently in the news headlines (as I said-the facts are in) so my brains are not in park as you are saying of me. Guess you had to be there..
I have lead people to Christ just loving them and telling them the truth, because the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation. See Romans 1:16-17 so surely we should take God at His word above yours or mine.
And perhaps you might reconsider this that Jesus said:
Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
ReplyDeleteDear 1:27 AM
Are you equating the defense of the faith via sound rational/logical arguments with being "ashamed of Christ and of His words?" A tad self-contradictory, wouldn't you say?
Moreover, I did NOT say YOUR brains were in park. I was speaking in general.....and not exclusively about Protestants There are certain radical Traditionalist Catholic leaders who demand that their followers "park their brains at the door" before entering a church.
While you are correct in saying that any actual converting is the work of the Holy Spirit, Scripture nevertheless illustrates the old adage that we should pray as if all depends upon God, but work as if all depended upon us since good works are "faith in action" and "faith without works is dead." James 2:14-26
Probably one of the best places to see this principle illustrated is found in
the passage about "fighting the good fight."
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto you are also called, and have professed a good profession before many witnesses. 1 Timothy 6:12
This includes giving sound logical evidence for our beliefs. Even in a court of law, the outcome of any given case hinges on the credibility of the witnesses. The credibility of objective historical evidence derives from the agreement of various documents with one another and the fact that the objective facts of recorded history is common to all whether Christian or non-Christian.
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Re: " See Romans 1:16-17 so surely we should take God at His word above yours or mine."
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It is the Bible (not me) that says:
"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." 1 Peter 3:15
So if a non-Christian were to ask you for evidence that YOUR Bible is God's word, how would you reply?
Loving people and telling them the truth is fine and praiseworthy. But as Christians, we must be ready to defend that truth with sound rational/logical arguments "to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."
The Bible does not interpret itself or validate itself. Unless the measuring rod is independent of the thing measured, then no measurement is possible.
You can say "the Gospel is the Power of God unto salvation" until the cows come home. You believe it. I believe it. But when someone who is not a Christian asks us for evidence the Gospel story is true, what do we tell THEM?
Since my Rule of Faith is not "sola Scriptura," (no criticism intended here - just making a point) I provide my inquirer with as much concrete historical evidence as possible to show him that the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is not a myth, but a historical fact. The Apostles were spread out all over the then-known world preaching the Gospel and backing up their preaching with miracles. Had the story of the Resurrection been untrue, it would have been very easy for any one of them - or all of them - to have broken ranks in the face of certain torture and death and claim that the Resurrection story was a lie. But the writings of the Church Fathers indicate that with the exception of John the Evangelist, every Apostle died as a martyr. John the Evangelist is considerd a "white martyr" because when he was about to be boiled in oil, he was miraculously delivered. That was when he was exiled to Patmos where under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he wrote the Book of Revelations (a.k.a. the Apocalypse).
When we compare the history of the origin of the Bible - whether Catholic or Protestant - with the history of the origin of the Quran, there is more concrete historical evidence to show that the Bible - and not the Quran - is the revealed Word of God.
"Are you equating the defense of the faith via sound rational/logical arguments with being "ashamed of Christ and of His words?" A tad self-contradictory, wouldn't you say? "
ReplyDeleteNo. I gave you an example of that very thing from my own experience.
You keeping padding this discussion with redundancy when the point was already taken and shown that it was taken, so you must be pushing beyond that for something unresolved of your own views.
I don't know, but it does seem that as you keep bringing that up,that you have less confidence in the eternal God-breathed word of God for someone who says they believe it, than not. Up to you to address that one and I don't need your reply either way-is your own heart judgment to make.
Maybe as a christian you may need to be less ashamed of the Bible and let it lead rather than your "pushing" your rationales trying to "convert" someone your way unless it is to do so to lead them exclusively to your brand of thinking. A true soul winner won't soft pedal the truth and let's it shine, with no apology. You and I don't hold all truth---God does. Since the truth holds all the power, you should try letting it do what it does best--shine--and dispel the darkness.
That's how The Master did it.
And by the way,And lots of people way back when, rewrote history to their own way of thinking. The Bible is, once again, exclusive there also. And so are the things written and known of it's impact (what Paul Harvey used to call "the rest of the story". The truth of the Lord weeds out those that are just of men's imaginations yet purport as His truth.
Good day.
11:53 AM
ReplyDeleteI have been following this discussion with interest and actual padding with "redundancy" in this discussion is more on YOUR part insofar as YOU repeatedly gloss over and ignore points that either do not conform to YOUR brand of thinking or do not enable you to control the narrative when you find yourself unable to rationally defend your own position. A typical strategy of "Christians" such as yourself. Not only that, but your seeming hostility to reason is redolent of the 2nd century Gnostics who claimed to have a direct "pipeline" to the mind of God which, more often than not, precluded thinking.
No one is trying to "push" anything on you that I can see, and it seems strange that you would even have the audacity to make such a bogus complaint since you are the one who voluntarily stuck your nose into this discussion in the first place with a view to "pushing" YOUR OWN brand of "thinking."
FYI, the Bible is not a history book and was never intended to be one. The Bible is theology - the WRITTEN Word of God which was first PREACHED by Christ directly to the Apostles before it was written down and arranged in the book which is known to us as "the Bible." At Pentecost, Bibles did not descend upon the Apostles. The Holy Ghost descended on them in the form of tongues of fire.
Your denigration of historical evidence is itself evidence of what has been referred to earlier as "fideism." St. Paul himself tells us that our very Christian faith STANDS OR FALLS on whether or not the Resurrection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is a historical fact. If The Resurrection of Our Lord is not a concrete historical fact, then as St. Paul tells us, we, of all men, are to be pitied because we are "still in our sins."
As 1 Corinthians 15:12-20 reads:
"Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep."
Maybe as a Christian, you may need to be less ashamed of Christ's HUMANITY and stop trying to disguise your bigotry as "god's word." You may also need to begin a careful study of the history of Christianity......beginning with the first century, not the sixteenth century!
Good day to you.
https://socialmediaglobaldrive.wordpress.com/2015/07/08/isis-trainer-turns-to-the-bible-sick-of-the-killing/
ReplyDeleteI have never ever been ashamed of Christ's humanity or anything else about Him.
I don't want to ever let religion or rationale or intellect for that matter--whatever get in the way-these are only tools in His toolbox so I denigrate nothing. When He ascended He sent His Spirit Who Alone rightly interprets what God has said, He always rightly exalts Jesus Christ. But go on ahead and try to take away what I already agreed with you on, but you for the sake of your own argument with whatever/whomever, must try to find a way to unsay what I said and also by way of example I gave.
By the video from the link above it certainly looks like God's Spirit can witness to the lost without us, even all of your rationales. And you notice the Bible played the huge part in this encounter. The LORD holds all truth and is sovereign with it, before He came to earth and most certainly when alive upon it, and ever since!!!!!!! So you ask yourself if you might be the one getting in the way of His message for others, the way you are trying to turn tables on me. Nice try, though.
ReplyDeleteI've been following this part of this thread and see "blankets and blurs" are the way some want to "share" Christ, huh? Typical man-centered reasoning not getting the job done.
John 1:1-5 is why we should always use the bible to share the Lord Jesus with any person. All other information shared has to qualify in answer to it's authority. What Ray B posted about the catholic catechism is a catholic answer attempting to make a square peg to fit in a round hole.
5:43 PM
ReplyDeleteKeep telling yourself that. Good way to avoid having to defend Sola Scriptura.....which the Bible does not teach.
Let God be true and every man a liar. Romans 3:4
ReplyDeleteHallelujah! Sola Scriptura!
I have learnt so much, I need to refer to the Bible again and again.
ReplyDeletepeople are truly conversant with the bible, i will need to re-read it again. very informative though.
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