An extremely disturbing new article in THE NATION by Jeremy Scahill may well have disturbing propaganda advantages for the Alliance of Civilizations which has been obviously seeking reasons to implement "GROUP OF FRIENDS" (member nations) "Implementation Plans" against "religious extremism" as their "Group of Personalities" (Karen Armstrong, Federico Mayor, Desmond Tutu, John Esposito, et al) have characterized those of us who cling to the "fundamentals" of our faith.
"Crisis = opportunity" to this group and this clearly presents them with a very real one!
Memeorandum, a high level New Age news service tonight carries a story by Jeremy Schahill reporting that anonymous federal informants "fearful for their lives" report that Blackwater founder, Erik Prince, was either directly responsible for or arranged for the murder of informants against his foreign security company. I have been personally leery of the work of that firm, but I am no less leery of the agenda of those speaking against it as they seek to portray it as Christian crusading run amok.
Quoting from the story:
A former Blackwater employee and an ex-US Marine who has worked as a security operative for the company have made a series of explosive allegations in sworn statements filed on August 3 in federal court in Virginia. The two men claim that the company's owner, Erik Prince, may have murdered or facilitated the murder of individuals who were cooperating with federal authorities investigating the company. The former employee also alleges that Prince "views himself as a Christian crusader tasked with eliminating Muslims and the Islamic faith from the globe," and that Prince's companies "encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life."
If this is substantiated and/or even remotely believed, how far away can true religious repression for all of us especially those of us believing that "Jesus is the only way" be?
I will be updating this story. Stay in prayer and STAY TUNED!
Constance
294 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 294 of 294Well stated, Dorothy. I have been following this issue for many months and see that Joyce believes Jesus is speaking through her, using her as a catalyst, to bring to an end both Roman Catholicism and Judaism.
There are people at this blog who have openly said they are "praying" for her to "succeed" on this blog. I guess they see her as some sort of spiritual warrior at this blog.
Through Internet Explorer we've been spammed big time. The one I just got was chinaontv.com and was a promotion for Cheerios Honeynut.
I got another one for eunews.com.
What big time promtion is going on to promote this one world idea?
Dorothy
8/9/2009
Joyce wrote: “You are Israel, and probably a Jew too, but there are some from Israel who are not Jews, like folks from the tribes of Ephraim, Manassah, Asher, etc, etc. i.e the Northern Kingdom. They were never called Jews, unless they associated with Judah, in which case they could be called Jews too. Most tribes from the Northern Kingdom don't even know that they are Israel because they have assimilated in the the nations where they were exiled. This probably makes it easier for them to hear Yeshua's voice because they don't have the baggage of Judaism t In the last days, they will be shaken out of these nations and brought to their specific tribal inheritance. Jews cannot retroactively call them Judah, since they NEVER were Judah. They were the House of Israel, the Northern Kingdom, Ephraim, but NEVER, EVER Jews, and now they're assimilated into the nations...”
Joyce,
Your convoluted obsession with Jewish tribal history is a skinhead approach that brings to mind the following recent article that discusses it:
Catriel’s Notebook: "Messianic Synagogues" Target Jews but Hit Christians, Some of Whom Are Converting to Judaism
http://jewishvoiceandopinion.com/a/JVO20090205.html
Pertinent quotes:
Despite their founders’ incessant denials and their unceasing attempts to worm these institutions into the mainstream Jewish community, these "synagogues" have almost always been rightly perceived to be Evangelical Christian Churches in the guise of Jewish houses of worship. Though divested of the most flagrant Christian symbols (e.g., crosses), and cleverly designed to look "Jewish," their toned down Christian message has been, nevertheless, unmistakable.
And they have not been successful in drawing large numbers of Jews. Even with the endless hype and the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars by various Christian bodies over the years, these "Messianics" have succeeded in converting only a fraction of a fraction of the vast number of Jews whom they confidently expected to reach by means of their newly minted ersatz synagogues.
Attracting Non-Jews
Instead something totally unexpected has happened. These "Messianic synagogues" have fired the imagination of countless thousands of non-Jews. Although the founding fathers of "Messianic Judaism" clearly intended the movement to be only a slick evangelical tool to reach Jews and convert them to Christianity, these fledgling "Jewish" congregations have been inundated by perhaps hundreds of thousands of non-Jews who are eager to join them.
Spiritual pilgrims, these non-Jews want to emulate what they see as the more authentic Jewish traditions in worship and lifestyle, but, at the same time, retain their belief in Jesus as their own personal messiah and savior.
--- experts suggest that, despite the pervasive "Jewish"—even "Orthodox"—image the Messianics seek desperately to project to the Jewish world, their congregations are probably 90 percent non- Jewish.
"Embarrassingly, for every Jewish proselyte, there are many more Gentiles who see the appeal of the Messianic movement, and wish to participate. How can the Messianic movement be truly for Messianic Jewish believers, if the place is crawling with Gentiles?"
Sometimes, Gentiles who are genuinely attracted to Judaism, wind up in Messianic congregations, only as way stations before continuing on to full --- conversion. Others decide to renounce Christianity and satisfy themselves as Noahides, believers in the One Jewish G-d who, because they do not convert, are mandated to obey only seven commandments instead of 613.
Now, Joyce, with respect to your “two-house” nonsense, read this:
"Two Houses"
For awhile, some Messianic congregations seriously considered granting full membership only to those of Jewish descent and their spouses, relegating "ordinary" Gentiles to "associate member" status.
Some Gentile members of Messianic congregations, fed up with their second-class status, have latched onto a new theology called "Two-House," in which Gentile "Jesus-believers" call themselves "Ephraim/Israel," and Jewish "Jesus-believers" are "Judah."
As "Israelites," the Gentiles, in their minds at least, are entitled to all the privileges of the original exiled Israelite tribes, including the right of permanent residence in the Jewish state and immediate citizenship upon arrival, as mandated by Israel’s Law of Return for Jewish olim.
In Israel
Scores, and perhaps hundreds, of "Two Housers," masking their Gentile identity, have already taken up residence in Israel. In the guise of ba-alei teshuva, they are trying to infiltrate religious communities, taking advantage of traditional Jewish hospitality.
According to some reports, many more of these "Israelites" are planning "to join their brothers, the ‘Yehudites’ in Eretz Yisrael" in the not-too-distant future.
On their website, called "Hear O Israel," "Rivka" writes: "Those who are too steeped in their Talmudic traditions to find time to read their Tanach will be surprised when Yahweh brings us home without giving up Yeshua, but we will be sure to invite him to the party."
"Nachshon" comments: "Just as the Ephraimite spies [sic] reported back to Joshua with the good report, I report to all the house of Joseph and Yehuda, Yahueh [sic] will lead us back to the land as followers and keepers of Torah, including Sabbath, Yahueh’s holy days (not man-made holidays), kosher diet of Torah, and as followers and believers of Yeshua, our Messiah, King, and Redeemer."
In a recent Israel National News forum, Jeffrey Gayken, an "Ephraimite" from South Carolina, posted: "All we [Ephraimites] want is to be recognized as equal heirs to the covenants of Hashem and given a place to come home too [i.e. Eretz Yisrael]. We want to embrace our brothers and sisters (the Jews) and help foster growth toward the imminent return of our Messiah Yeshua when He comes as King over Yerushalayim."
Borderline Antisemitism
Some "Torah-observant Israelite" groups are not nearly as benign. On its website, the Messianic Evangelical New Covenant Church of G-d (NCCG) has a section entitled "Talmudic Judaism: The Dark Truth," in which readers are promised that if "you are a genuine believer in the Lord Yeshua and you obey the Torah, you are marked by heaven as belonging to one of the Twelve Tribes, whether by descent or by adoption. If you are a Torah-observant Christian, you are Israel—and there is no other Israel."
This "Torah-observant site" leaves little doubt as to the ghastly fate that awaits the unconverted Jews, whom the site calls "Talmudic Jews," currently living in Eretz Yisrael. They "will be displaced by HaShem if they have not repented and received the true Messiah, whom they have reviled, persecuted, and killed."
"If they receive Him, they will be forgiven. If they do not, they will be cast out of the land which they are illegally occupying, along with all the other heathens who name other gods," the NCCG website promises its devotees.
Continued
The Future
A Texas-born Jewish convert, who, for many years, was an observer of Messianic communities in Washington State, believes this is the future of the so-called "Hebrew Roots Restoration" movement.
"It is where their evolving theology is heading," he said. "Once they return to mainstream churches, they will spread the old ‘Christ-killer’ accusation against Jews."
He is convinced that many of these "Two Housers," who believe that they are the "True Israel," will "likely fall into the arms of the ‘Christian Identity’/Neo-Nazis."
Christian Identity
There are a number of Christian Identity groups and militias, all of them allied or associated with White Christian Patriots from throughout Western Christendom. They are convinced that they are the Nations of Modern True Israel.
This, they are careful to note, does not include ‘the imposter Jew State of Israel in Palestine."
These "White Kingdoms of True Israel" stand in firm opposition to the "Zionist Occupation Government," the "Jew World Order," and their cornerstone the "Jewnited [sic[ States of America."
These groups seem like sweetness and light when compared to the "Two Seed" theologians who preach, following John 8:44, that while white Christians of Northern European descent are indeed "Israel," the "Satanic Jews" are literally the biological descendants of the devil himself, who, in the form of the serpent, had sexual intercourse with Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Hebrew Roots Restoration
Despite the Texas-born observer’s predictions and the squabbles between "ethnic Jews" and Gentiles in Messianic congregations, most of the Gentiles in the movement do not seem destined for Neo-Nazi groups.
--- most non-Jewish Christians who are drawn to Messianic congregations enjoy an increased level of appreciation for the "Jewishness" of Jesus, Paul, and their first-century CE followers. Further, he said, the rise of "Hebraic Roots" ministries has encouraged and taught non-Jews to model themselves after their thoroughly Jewish Messiah.
In fact, the "Hebrew Roots Restoration Movement" was inspired by Gentiles who were at first attracted to Messianic congregations. Now the Hebrew Roots Restoration has spread to all fundamentalist and even some mainstream evangelical churches.
"As a result many, if not most, now celebrate a Passover seder of sorts every spring," said the Texas-born observer.
This increasingly widespread phenomenon runs the gamut from Presbyterians and Lutherans who have added Passover seders to their Easter celebrations, to self-described "Torah-observant" Messianic congregations who, like one in Houston, build their "synagogues" by themselves using imported Jerusalem stone.
According to Professor Desmond Maxwell of Belfast Bible College, if the Hebrew Roots Movement continues to gather momentum, it could result in "virtually another Reformation."
Converting to Judaism
But it is also increasing the number of Jews because Messianics converting halachically to Judaism is becoming an increasingly common phenomenon. This is especially true for Gentiles who erroneously believed that they could express their desire to become Jewish by joining a Messianic congregation.
Once involved, however, they, like many Jews, soon come to understand that a Messianic "synagogue" is nothing more than an Evangelical church deceptively designed to ape a shul in order to lure Jews who might otherwise be uncomfortable with the Christian trappings.
"Messianic Judaism was only a ruse to use, hoping that the Jewish person who didn’t believe in Jesus would see that the Jewish believers were still ‘Jewish,’ and be saved. Sabbath and Passover were only deceptive tools in this charade. The founding fathers, as well as the current leadership, do not hold Torah, Sabbath, and Passover as holy. It’s only [Jewish] cultural window decoration to win the Jewish people to a Law-less Christ," wrote disillusioned Jewish Messianic Avraham Yehoshua.
Soory but the article url was truncated.
Those who wish to reaed the entire long and comprehensive3 article can access it at the URL below:
Catriel’s Notebook: "Messianic Synagogues" Target Jews but Hit Christians, Some of Whom Are Converting to Judaism
By Catriel Sugarman
February 2009
http://tinyurl.com/d6nsft
Dorothy,
Are you saying that if Joyce is Jewish by birth, but professes Jesus while refusing to discard Jewish Torah beliefs that makes her "a New Age leader"? We agree on many things, but I must respectfully and emphatically disagree on this one. I believe Joyce is as anti-New Age as you and I.
Constance
Sorry guys.
DOMA worried me. BAAL worried me. I have frequently disagreed with Joyce and sometimes with Dorothy, but they have not worried me.
Constance
Dorothy and Len,
Great informative posts!
Thank you both and God bless you both!!!
Dorothy,
What a horrible thought it is for you
that someone might have come to
love the Jewish Messiah, Jesus !
Is the idea and the thought of this
Jesus of Nazareth so completely
repugnant to you because of what it
says in the Talmud, or the Kabbalah ?
If so, then why do you spend so
much time here, (obviously), pretending
to enjoy dialog with all these Christians?
I don't understand. Why can't Joyce find
true love in Jesus of Nazareth ?
I have, but I'm not Jewish so that's okey?
Joyce believes in Jesus as the Savior of the
world. She has exposited the scriptures
very well, which you've never even
begun to do, but somehow you are
overflowing with hate speech for her.
My oh my, what an over-the=top
rant that was! _from Len and then from
you. Like two vollys of big guns
going for the knockout punch.
I've said it before: you don't own the
only interpretation of the Torah
among Jewish people in this world,
you're just in the majority.
But it's interesting that you characterize
yourself by your deep hatred for
one Jesus the Christ.
The scribes and the Pharisees and
money changers were the first to really
despise Jesus.They saw to his murder.
What it says in the Kabbalah about Jesus,
and about his mother, is a pack of vicious,
hateful lies. The ridiculous nature
of those lies should have been your
first clue.
Jesus wrote the Torah.
Moses and Isaiah
were taking dictation from Him.
He is the still small voice to Elijah.
He said; "Before Abraham was, I Am."
Jesus is the Author.
He is Lion of the tribe of Judah.
Both his mother and adoptive father
were descended from David.
Len,
Interesting that you mention the
blank page between the Old and
the New Testaments.
So you admit they're bound
together ?
8/9/2009
For Joyce:
Here is an incisive analysis of your methodology:
300 missionary Messianic prophecies: proofs or spoofs?
A former missionary gives us a crash course in fending off those who want to convert the Jews. Beware, missionaries: He's on our side now.
by Gavriel Aryeh Sanders
During a recent lecture on why I embraced Judaism, someone bluntly asked how I could deny Jesus as the Jewish messiah, seeing that he fulfilled some 300 Old Testament prophecies. I responded with a classic story of the Maggid of Dubno.
There was once a man hiking in the forest who marveled to see a number of arrows shot into the center of a series of bull's eyes scattered about on several tree trunks. Wandering further, he found an archer, leaning against a tree. "You shot all those perfect shots?" the hiker queried. "Indeed", boasted the archer, "and would you like to see how I do it?" He stood erect, fired an arrow into a nearby tree, then grabbed a pail of whitewash and painted a bull's-eye around the arrow. What appeared to be proof of greatness was actually a clever spoof.
When applied to the 300 Old Testament prophecies Jesus allegedly fulfilled, we encounter incident after incident of painted proofs, also known as post hoc reasoning (in which causality is ascribed to preceding conditions which were in fact irrelevant to the supposed effect).
As a former missionary, I often repeated this mantra about 300 fulfillments. I believed it because I believed what "they" told me to believe, not because the primary textual evidence really supported it. On closer examination, especially from the Hebrew, my proof texts dissolved into spoof texts.
Missionaries commonly create proof texts by taking a passage from the Hebrew Scriptures out of its clear and consistent context. And they know better. I recall studying hermeneutics, the science and art of biblical interpretation, during my early years of theological training. Let me take you back to a classroom discussion of the fundamentals of interpreting a text.
The passage or words must be studied in context.
The first context is the material that immediately precedes and follows the passage under consideration. "A text without a context is a pretext."
[Rev. E.P.] Barrows stated, "To interpret without regard to the context is to interpret at random; to interpret contrary to the context is to teach falsehood for truth" (Barrows, Companion to the Bible, 531). [Barrows, a professor of theology at Oberlin Seminary, wrote in 1868.]
More of this article at:
http://tinyurl.com/nhjfpq
Gavrial Sanders' web site at:
http://www.gavrielsanders.com/
8/9/2009
Paul wrote: "What it says in the Kabbalah about Jesus, and about his mother, is a pack of vicious,
hateful lies.
Dear Paul,
I am somewhat of a student of Kabbalah but I have never come across anything of the sort.
Would you be so kind as to point me there so I can either verify your statement or, if appropriate, shoot it down.
Thanks much.
Len
Joyce may have been Hebrew by birth in terms of her ethnicity.
But in terms of her religious beliefs, she was not born and brought up Jewish.
By her own admission, she was born and brought up Catholic!
While she may not be explicitly pro-New Age, her last comments demonstrate that her British Israelitish "two-house-oriented" propaganda that she would have everyone accept as "true Judaism" doesn't have far to go before it morphs into the neo-Nazi/White Supremacist Christian Identity pseudo-theology which has infiltrated the New Age Movement!
While Joyce is perfectly free to invent her own religion and define it in whatever terms she likes, it is the height of arrogance for her to presume to define what other people believe - especially Jews whom she continually misrepresents!
8/9/2009
Paul addressed me as follows: "Interesting that you mention the blank page between the Old and the New Testaments.
So you admit they're bound
together ?
Dear Paul,
Why should I deny what everyone knows? Since you bring it up, I will make two points:
1. The "blank-page" phrase was not coined by me but rather by Disraeli, whose Jewish father converted to Christianity, when he was asked by the queen in what religion he was.
2. The "Old Testament" is not the same as the Tanakh; the Jewish Scriptures. It is rather a Christianized version. "Tanakh" (TNK) is an acronym for Torah (Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Wisdom Writings). The sections are prioritized in sanctity, and are in the order, given by the acronym. But in the "Old Testament" the K is second and P last. You should call the "Old Testament" the Takan. This is to satisfy the assertion that Jesus was prophesied by the Prophets and so they are "logically" followed immediately by the "New Testament."
That is not all. In addition, the Old Testament scrambles some of the individual books. So the Book of Daniel (who is not one of the Jewish prophets), which in the Writings just before Ezra, is shifted by the "Old Testament" to the Prophets. This disguises the true meaning of a significant verse in Daniel which is interpreted Christologically.
Dan 9:25 And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [in] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.
The annointed king is Cyrus of Persia, not Jesus. This is indicated by the beginning of Cha[. 10 but aloso by the first verse of the Book of Ezra immediately following Daniel. Moving Daniel hides the close reference.
Finally, the Old Testament is full of Christianized mistranslations one of the more famous being "virgin" instead of "young woman" in Isaiah 7:14.
Len 7:01pm:
To your point 2 above:
Yes, you are correct that the OT is in a different order than the Tanakh; however, it's interesting the order which Jesus uses in the following passage which corresponds to the Tanakh:
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luke 24:44 NIV
8/9/2009
Ms. Cumbey wrote: "I believe Joyce is as anti-New Age as you and I."
Dear Constance,
I read your excellent book. Pertaining to the above statement of yours, heree is what the book said:
"The glue binding most New Age devotees is one of common mystical
experiences. 'Experiential religion' is considered vital withinthe Movement. A substantial proportion of those within the
Movement strongly believe in psychic phenomena and say they do so because of 'direct experiences.' (Pg 54)
"While professing support for religious liberty in their public
releases, the Alice Bailey books which are meticulously followed
within the Movement call for complete abridgement of this freedom. They openly and boldly set forth plans for a new mandatory world religion - a religion completely breaking with the concept of Jesus as the Christ and God as the Father. Jews and Christians - Roman Catholic and Protestant alike - as well as uncooperative Moslems are openly slated for persecution and even a "cleansing action" should they fail to cooperate. " (Pg 57)
Of course you will cite some contradictions with Joycer's statements. But again quoting your book:
"Satan himself appears to those he
deceives transformed into an angel of light. New Agers often receive what they believe to be an experience of overpowering beauty and glory. Because of the immensity of the experience they assume they have come in contact with the Lord. --- Deception has been Satan's game since the Garden of Eden and our times are no exception. " (Pg 174)
Interestingly, I used the Garden of Eden comparison myself in a recent message.
Peace and blessing,
Len
I'm quite dismayed by the lack of attention paid to current events regarding globalism by the Christian/Evangelical community.
Imagine my elation when I turned on my TV this morning to ION (formerly PAX) at 6:30 to Coral Ridge Ministries (the late D. James Kennedy is the founder) and -- through my half asleep state -- view a program exposing UN global agendas.
From the website:
"Global America: Rebuilding the Tower of Babel? (DVD)
The United Nations is well-known for its role as an international peace keeper. But blue-helmeted UN troops are just the tip of the UN's ideological iceberg. One look under the surface reveals a much broader, more radical, and dangerous agenda. An agenda pushed not just by UN bureaucrats, but international elites eager to impose global rules that trump the rights of nations.
"Global America: Rebuilding the Tower of Babel?" exposes the objectives of globalism and surveys the U.N.'s leading role in the construction of a one-world government that destroys national sovereignty and subjects citizens to the "progressive" ideals of the global community. This utopian vision for the world includes a vast and extreme secular agenda that promotes:
homosexuality
abortion
radical feminism
abolishing the rights of parents
and much more..."
http://tinyurl.com/nwren6
Also:
"What are the effects of globalization on society? This new documentary, produced by Coral Ridge Ministries, surveys the modern blueprint that is being designed by the United Nations and other social architects. The move towards the construction of a new globalized society is underway through the collaboration of international agencies which seek to advance a secular ideology through the establishment of international laws and the application of new definitions of human rights all in the name of worldwide tolerance and equality. If the United States is not vigilant as a sovereign nation, our way of life as a free society could be at the risk of collapse!"
http://tinyurl.com/m5azkz
I've not viewed the entire DVD (I'm not sure if I'll buy it); but, I've a feeling they'll barely scratch the surface. But, it's a start!
8/9/2009
Craig wrote: "He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." Luke 24:44 NIV
Dear Craig,
Congrats on your research. Of course the Psalms are just one of the Wisdom books but your point is still cogent. So the Church scrambled the books by putting the Psalms before the Prophets and changed Jesus'/Luke's order to "the Law of Moses, the Psalms and the Prophets."
RE GAVRIAL SANDERS:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they were of us, they would have remained with us."
GAVRIEL SANDERS was probably the real New Ager in the crowd. He does neither Jew nor Christian favors!
Len:
Yes, but, Chronicles is the last book of the Tanakh, yet it fits in with the other books of History. Compilers of the OT chose to include Chronicles 1 & 2 just after Kings as, I believe, they felt it more logically 'fit' there.
Also, the Book of Daniel while certainly could be considered 'Wisdom' literature has quite a bit of prophecy; so, couldn't it fit in with the other 'Prophetic' literature? In fact, it seems the book is largely prophetic with Chapters 7-12 devoted strictly to prophecy and bits of 2, 3, 4 & 5 as well.
8/9/2009
Spade wrote of Gavriel Sanders:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they were of us, they would have remained with us."
You put that in quotes, Not that Sanders needs me to defend him but, after a search of "of us," I could not find that in his article so it must be yours.
But here is what I did find in the "of us" search:
" --- a steady stream of former messianic Jews are becoming ba'alei teshuvah (returnees to Judaism). And not a few devoted evangelicals are actually converting to Judaism. (Ironically, their former colleagues explain their traitorous migration by declaring that these souls "were never really saved".)
"However, they are discovering what Torah Jews have quietly held all along, that the signs of messianic fulfillment are not matters of belief but knowledge. We know that God spoke to some two million OF US at Mt. Sinai, giving us a covenant that would have no additions or deletions. We know that messiah is not a deity incarnate (another pre-Christian pagan idea), but a righteous ruler whose arrival will be visible to the entire world and who will establish global peace and the universal knowledge of God, with the Jews dwelling in a redeemed land with a rebuilt Temple. These are not matters of subjective faith but demonstrable reality.
8/9/2009
Craig wrote: "Yes, but, Chronicles is the last book of the Tanakh, yet it fits in with the other books of History. Compilers of the OT chose to include Chronicles 1 & 2 just after Kings as, I believe, they felt it more logically 'fit' there."
They fit more logically at the end from the Jewish pov because, while historic, it is also homiletic. Chronicles was authored by Ezra. Someone said that, while the Prophets are similar to the King's "son" the Writings (all of them -- not just Chronicles) are like his "servant." A servant glimpses more of his master than anyone else. Yet he does not have the authority to reveal or carry out the King's will. The prince may not hear as much as the servant but he has the power of execution.
Ezra wrote a book of history that deals with events previously described in the Prophets. In doing so he brought a radically different perspective from that of the Prophets. Ezra revieweds many events in other books (mainly Samuel and Kings), while omitting others. The focus is that of history moving inexorably towards the messianic era and the rebuilding of the Temple; political and spiritual conclusions to history that are central to Judaism, and which Israel was chosen to bring to fruition. Thus the last verse of 2 Chronicles, the final verse of the Tanakh, is:
"So said Cyrus the king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth has the Lord God of the heavens delivered to me, and He commanded me to build Him a House in Jerusalem, which is in Judea. Who among you is of all His people, may the Lord his God be with him, and he may ascend." (2 Chron. 36:23)
Continued
Len:
The "Call a spade..." quote comes from 1 John 2:19 referring to 'former Christians' who in reality were never Christians to begin with.
Len:
But, Cyrus, King of Persia built the second temple! The third is yet to be built.
Gregg>>Also, the Book of Daniel while certainly could be considered 'Wisdom' literature has quite a bit of prophecy; so, couldn't it fit in with the other 'Prophetic' literature? In fact, it seems the book is largely prophetic with Chapters 7-12 devoted strictly to prophecy and bits of 2, 3, 4 & 5 as well.
Good observation, Gregg!
But prophecy is just one of the jobs of a prophet. It is not sufficient in itself. To be declared a prophet, the person had to preach to Israel. Daniel never did this.
In his book, "The Prophets," Rabbi Abraham Heschel wrote that he prophet often said "No" to his people, "condemning its habits and assumptions, its complacency, waywardness and syncretism. --- His fundamental objective was to reconcile man and God. Why do the two need reconciliation? Perhaps it is due to man's false sense of sovereignty, to his abuse of freedom, to his aggressive sprawling pride, resenting God's invoilvement in history."
8/9/2009
Craig wrote: "But, Cyrus, King of Persia built the second temple! The third is yet to be built."
Right again with the facts! But there is a lot more in the Tanakh than facts.
In this case the final verse ends in mid sentence:
"Who among you is of all His people, may the Lord his God be with him, and he may ascend."
Ascend where? The historic answer is in Ezra 1:3:
"--- and he may ascend to Jerusalem, which is in Judea, and let him build the House of the Lord, God of Israel; He is the God Who is in Jerusalem."
But in the final verse "and he may ascend" is not limited to a specific historical event -- the return to Zion from the Babylonian exile -- but looks to the future. Jewish history -- when the Messiah arrives -- will end with just these words: "And he may ascend."
This confirms the homiletic aspect of Chronicles that I mentioned earlier; its view of history. It is also the reason for ending the Tanakh this way.
Len
Len 9:23pm:
...To be declared a prophet, the person had to preach to Israel. Daniel never did this.
One of the primary themes of the Book of Daniel is God's Sovereignty; so, wouldn't one assume this book was 'preaching' to Israel? In addition, a large part of the book is devoted to apocalyptic literature like Zechariah. Again, this points towards Daniel being a prophetic book.
Len 9:42pm:
Ezra 1:2-3:
2 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. NIV
This was Cyrus' decree to allow the people of Israel to rebuild her Temple. Certainly, one could substitute 'ascend' with 'go up.'
8/9/2009
Craig wrote: The "Call a spade..." quote comes from 1 John 2:19 referring to 'former Christians' who in reality were never Christians to begin with.
Sanders anticipated such a charge as expressed in my quote from him -- repeated here:
"And not a few devoted evangelicals are actually converting to Judaism. (Ironically, their former colleagues explain their traitorous migration by declaring that these souls 'were never really saved'.) "
He also explains why he left the fold:
"For twenty years, I supported the "proofs" of these 300 passages. Echoing the guru of missionary apologetics, Josh McDowell, I believed the only conclusion one could reach about Jesus is that he was "liar, lunatic, or Lord". There is a fourth option, of course, -- without an alliterative "L" -- he was a composite of frustrated hopes and fears spanning many years, whose prophetic distillations emerged from the cut-and-paste data mining of fervent believers.
"This was a tough conclusion for me to embrace. I had to get hit over the head several times before the message got through. I hadn't believed in those 300 prophecies because they were true. They were true because I believed in them. So many texts -- so little context.
"There is good news in all this. Many missionaries, evangelicals, and messianics are learning to apply Dr. Barrow's simple hermeneutical guideline: to interpret contrary to the context is to teach falsehood for truth. In an attempt to convince Jews that their version of Christianity is the only truth, many missionaries are learning Hebrew, examining rabbinic sources, and seeking to understand what the Hebrew texts say without the coloration of New Testament glasses.
"Beginning with the premise that "the New is in the Old concealed, while the Old is in the New revealed," many of these missionary researchers are coming to the uncomfortable conclusion that "what's true isn't new and what's new isn't true".
8/9/2009
Gregg said: "so, wouldn't one assume this book was 'preaching' to Israel?"
I can show you where any prophet actually addressed the people.
Please show me where Daniel did so.
EVERYTHING in the Tanakh is about God's sovereignty.
Paul,
Putting it bluntly, I have no problem with followers of Jesus who try to follow the morality his followers say he taught. If that is how Christians want to make sense of the world we were born into, and if that works for them, I have no reason to interfere. I have no reason to interfere with any religious group until they start mucking about and distorting what I believe.
The desire for power is a seduction that mankind has been unable to find a way to stop. The itch is always in the background.
Len is more than a good match for Joyce. You don't know this, but we do. Joyce has been trained. Religion is her business. Those who have training in a field can out talk weak willed individuals whose knowledge in that field is peripheral. It's how cult leaders and missionaries get converts.
My knowledge of Judaism is not that of a scholar. However I'm very skilled in knowledge of the New Age movement. I don't get pushed around by those promoting the movement.
You started your comment off by talking about love for Jesus and then went on and on about that. Love is an emotion. I have no desire to deny you your feelings any more than I would deny anyone else their feelings about the people or things they love. Love is a very personal thing.
However, when you insist that I must love what you love, it goes too far. I don't love your wife but that doesn't mean I hate her. I don't force you to love what I love, saying if you don't love those things you must hate them. That kind of thinking needs long term counseling.
You wrote:
"Jesus wrote the Torah.
Moses and Isaiah
were taking dictation from Him."
That's a religion that I'm not familiar with. Who taught you that? Or did you receive that information psychically?
Dorothy
Constance,
Only in the world of Alice in Wonderland do we see that words mean what we want them to mean. That's the Theosophist world as you know.
If someone is anti-New Age to my mind they must be anti-New Age in all all areas, not just in some. They must be anti New World Order as well as anti blended religions.
Maybe it's time to spell out again what the New Age movement is about so that we can agree on what we are fighting.
Dorothy
Len (and others):
I know I won't be able to 'convert' you to Christianity (although the Holy Spirit can); but, I implore you to take a look at Ted Montgomery's excellent work on the ENP that Constance referred to earlier and how it could fit in with Daniel 9:24-27 and then watch as the next year unfolds.
http://tinyurl.com/lvjmdj
Specifically look at how the Barcelona Process could be the 'covenant with many' that was 'confirmed' by the ENP which is set for possible 'review' at the 42 month/3.5 year poiny ['middle of the "seven"] The review can include (from the Montgomery site):
An “Action Plan on the Protection and Welfare of Animals” also was adopted in 2006. Certain reviews and evaluations, including those pertaining to “planned specific actions to improve the protection and welfare of animals,” are to take place in the middle of that seven-year period (2010
Could this refer to a ban on animal sacrifices on the Third Temple ['he will put an end to sacrifice' and 'he will set up an abomination that causes desolation']?
Craig,
For thousands of years Jews have followed the religion without ever needing to see how prophecy was being fulfilled. During several periods when they thought prophecy was bringing something about, some went into a deep hole, the latest being the Lubavitcher thing.
Where Judaism teaches how an individual must live and his relationship to those around him, it is a valuable guide to making it through the world we live in.
Dorothy
Dorothy 10:40pm:
Certainly fufilled prophecies of the Tanakh/Old Testament lends creedence to the infallibility of the Word of God and can be used as witnessing tools.
With all due respect to your beliefs, how will you know when the Messiah comes if you don't have a watchful eye on prophecies?
8/10/5009
Craig wrote: "With all due respect to your beliefs, how will you know when the Messiah comes if you don't have a watchful eye on prophecies?"
We will know by EVENTS; not by reading his resume.
Here are some of the prophesied events:
THE COMING WILL LIBERATE FIRST THE JEWS, WHO WILL RETURN TO ISRAEL, AND THEN ALL HUMANITY.
“He will display a signal to the nations, assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the Four Corners of the earth. (IS. 11:12)
"Thus says The Lord: Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob, and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt upon its mound, and the palace shall stand where it used to be. Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving, and the voices of those who make merry. I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will make them honored, and they shall not be small. Their children shall be as they were of old, and their congregation shall be established before me; and I will punish all who oppress them. (Jer 30:18-20)”
THE TEMPLE WILL BE RESTORED
“The mount of The Lord’s House shall stand firm above the mountains --- and all the nations shall gaze on it with joy. And all the peoples shall go and say: ‘Come, let us go up to the mount of The Lord, to the House of the G-d of Jacob; that He may instruct us in His ways, and that we may walk in His paths. For instruction shall go forth from Zion, the word of The Lord from Jerusalem. (Is. 2:2,3)”
THE COMING WILL USHER IN AN ERA OF UNIVERSAL PEACE AND JUSTICE.
“Thus He will judge among the nations and arbitrate for the many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation; they shall never again know war. (Is. 2:4).”
“[The Messiah] shall judge the poor with equity --- and slay the wicked with the breath of his lips (Is. 11:4, 5).”
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard lie down with the kid; the calf, the beast of prey, and the fatling together, with a little boy to herd them. The cow and the bear shall graze, Their young shall lie down together; and the lion, like the ox, shall eat straw. A babe shall play over a viper’s hole, and an infant pass his hand over an adder’s den. In all of My sacred mount nothing evil or vile shall be done; for the land shall be as filled with knowledge of The Lord as water covers the sea. In that day the stock of Jesse --- shall become a standard to peoples. Nations shall seek his counsel and his abode shall be honored. (Is. 11:6-10).”
THE WORLD WILL OBEY ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE TORAH ENTHUSIASTICALLY.
“Such is the covenant I make with the House of Israel after these days [periods of disaster in Jewish history, when Israel was sinful and God was hidden] declares The Lord. I will put My Teaching into their inmost being and inscribe it upon their hearts. Then I shall be their G-d and they shall be My people. No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, ’Heed The Lord,’ for all of them from the least to the greatest shall heed Me, declares The Lord. For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more. (Jer. 31:33, 34).
“The Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Lord with one name (Zech. 14:9)”.
The events will be so vividly obvious it willl be impossible to miss them.
8/70/2009
Craig wrote: "Ted Montgomery's excellent work on the ENP"
That web site is so far-fetched in relation to Daniel Ch. 9 that it can be dismissed out of hand.
Daniel 9 is about historical events that have been fulfilled. It is not about the ENP or the "antichrist" whatever that is.
Craig,
I previously expressed concern regarding the ION stations from William Paxson. ION life is full of new age nonsense as well as having the icon that is similar to ones I have previously expressed concern with.
8/10/2009
Dear Craig,
Sorry for calling you "Gregg" a couple of times.
It's late:-)
Len
Craig,
I don't worry about that. If people start telling me the messiah is here, I'll look into it. No one appointed me to be the first person to make the announcement.
Dorothy
PART ONE OF TWO PARTS TO LEN:
Len: The expectations you lay out for your expected Messiah could just as well parallel the Prophet Daniel's layout for a coming world dictator who would persecute God's true people for 3 1/2 years (time, times, and half a time) and Zechariah chapter 12 when the Jewish people finally "mourn him whom they pierced." Our Christian prophecies of the Book of Revelation, our 2nd Thessalonians -- prophecies given 2000 years ago lay out a scenario like the one you give also -- as the reign of the Antichrist. It is expectations of this type that the New Agers are relying on for acceptance of their world messiah. This are the events you so mapped: "We will know by EVENTS; not by reading his resume. Here are some of the prophesied events: THE COMING WILL LIBERATE FIRST THE JEWS, WHO WILL RETURN TO ISRAEL, AND THEN ALL HUMANITY. “He will display a signal to the nations, assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the Four Corners of the earth. (IS. 11:12) "Thus says The Lord: Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob, and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt upon its mound, and the palace shall stand where it used to be. Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving, and the voices of those who make merry. I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will make them honored, and they shall not be small. Their children shall be as they were of old, and their congregation shall be established before me; and I will punish all who oppress them. (Jer 30:18-20)” THE TEMPLE WILL BE RESTORED “The mount of The Lord’s House shall stand firm above the mountains --- and all the nations shall gaze on it with joy. And all the peoples shall go and say: ‘Come, let us go up to the mount of The Lord, to the House of the G-d of Jacob; that He may instruct us in His ways, and that we may walk in His paths. For instruction shall go forth from Zion, the word of The Lord from Jerusalem. (Is. 2:2,3)”
(CONTINUED ON NEXT COMMENT)
CONSTANCE
THE COMING WILL USHER IN AN ERA OF UNIVERSAL PEACE AND JUSTICE. “Thus He will judge among the nations and arbitrate for the many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation; they shall never again know war. (Is. 2:4).” “[The Messiah] shall judge the poor with equity --- and slay the wicked with the breath of his lips (Is. 11:4, 5).” The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard lie down with the kid; the calf, the beast of prey, and the fatling together, with a little boy to herd them. The cow and the bear shall graze, Their young shall lie down together; and the lion, like the ox, shall eat straw. A babe shall play over a viper’s hole, and an infant pass his hand over an adder’s den. In all of My sacred mount nothing evil or vile shall be done; for the land shall be as filled with knowledge of The Lord as water covers the sea. In that day the stock of Jesse --- shall become a standard to peoples. Nations shall seek his counsel and his abode shall be honored. (Is. 11:6-10).” THE WORLD WILL OBEY ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE TORAH ENTHUSIASTICALLY. “Such is the covenant I make with the House of Israel after these days [periods of disaster in Jewish history, when Israel was sinful and God was hidden] declares The Lord. I will put My Teaching into their inmost being and inscribe it upon their hearts. Then I shall be their G-d and they shall be My people. No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, ’Heed The Lord,’ for all of them from the least to the greatest shall heed Me, declares The Lord. For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more. (Jer. 31:33, 34). “The Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day there shall be one Lord with one name (Zech. 14:9)”. The events will be so vividly obvious it willl be impossible to miss them. 12:04 AM" SO, WHEN THE NEW AGERS COME ON THE SCENE WITH THEIR ARMAGEDDON SCRIPT PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN WAITING IN THE WINGS, READY FOR THE CURTAIN TO RISE, HOW WILL YOU TELL YOUR EXPECTATIONS FROM THEIRS? I do not agree with Pastor Ervin on Baxter on everything, but I do agree with him on many things. He says there is a reason Daniel and Revelation sound so much alike -- "SAME AUTHOR, DIFFERENT SECRETARIES". What is your response to this. What is your plan if the one coming turns out to be an anti-Semitic world dictator?
CONSTANCE
Len 12:48am
In Daniel 9:24 who brings in 'everlasting righteousness?'
Len 1:55am:
Sorry for calling you "Gregg" a couple of times.
It's late:-)
I've been called much worse!! Recently even! And, I still get called "Gregg" -- I have a very nice neighbor, originally from Mexico, who calls me this.
peacebringer7:
I previously expressed concern regarding the ION stations from William Paxson. ION life is full of new age nonsense as well as having the icon that is similar to ones I have previously expressed concern with.
I suppose local programming varies. I use to listen to the late D. James Kennedy on local Christian talk radio; and, I don't recall anything out of the ordinary. If you find anything 'new agey' on the Coral Ridge website, let me and the readers here know.
In fact, there's also a DVD on the Coral Ridge site exposing 'Global Warming:'
This bold new documentary is an exciting and important tool for all who face the rampant misinformation propagated by ecological alarmists. Global Warming addresses subjects that others will not touch, including the misinformation contained in Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth.
Also, ION here shows Charles Stanley's InTouch which I find to be accurately Bible-based although I disagree with a few of his beliefs (no alcohol at all, his stance of tithing, for examples).
Of course, there is other programming on ION that I would not watch as it's also has secular programming.
Constance,
Yeshua's words are quite clear, so we will not mistake Him for any false messiahs:
Matt. 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from 1the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see bthe SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
The challenge has always been to line up Scripture with the real events at any given time. My people have at times failed to recognize what God was doing. For example Moses was up on Mt. Sinai getting the tablets and they became impatient and worshipped the golden calf, who they called YHVH. We know what this cost that generation, going into the Land.
After the death of Solomon, and the division of the kingdom, Jeroboam did the same thing again.
After Antiochus Epiphanes, in the Second Temple period, which of course was after two major exiles, the Southern Kingdom to Babylon and the Northern Kingdom to Assyria, Judah ( the Jews, or the Southern Kingdom) were under foreign occupation and looking for a political victory from the Romans, no so so different from today where the nation of Israel is looking for a victory from its Arab occupants and neighbors.
The problem with this is that the bigger picture is missed. What God wants to do is restore Gan Eden, and many Jews will end up being slaves for Pharaoh again, because the anti-messiah will be a type of Pharaoh figure except much, much worse.
It's important to know where salvation comes from. Many Jews cannot accept Yeshua because of centuries of programming. This battle is a spiritual one.
Before Zechariah 12 is accomplished there will be 144,000 sealed from all 12 tribes of Israel, starting with the Jews or Judah.
Rev. 7:4-9 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, bone hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.
contd
contd
This sealing of the tribes prior to the return of Yeshua shows us that God is concerning with the shalom of Israel ( the wholeness/peace) and will deal with the entire family as well as the nations. Most Orthodox Jews do understand that the tribes have to come back, but they try to call them Jews, when Scripture calls them by their tribal name and doesn't call them Jews.
A careful reading of Scripture reveals both in Ezekiel and Revelations that God is fully concerned with the tribal identities as well as the land inheritance that He has designated...
Ezek. 47:21-48:8“So you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. “You shall divide it by alot for an inheritance among yourselves and among the baliens who stay in your midst, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an cinheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. “And in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give him his inheritance,” declares the Lord GOD. “Now athese are the names of the tribes: from the northern extremity, 1beside the way of Hethlon to 2Lebo-hamath, as far as Hazar-enan at the border of Damascus, toward the north 1beside Hamath, 3running from east to west, bDan, one portion. “Beside the border of Dan, from the east side to the west side, aAsher, one portion.
“Beside the border of Asher, from the east side to the west side, aNaphtali, one portion.
Ezek. 48:4 “Beside the border of Naphtali, from the east side to the west side, aManasseh, one portion.
Ezek. 48:5 “Beside the border of Manasseh, from the east side to the west side, aEphraim, one portion.“Beside the border of Ephraim, from the east side to the west side, aReuben, one portion.
“Beside the border of Reuben, from the east side to the west side, aJudah, one portion. “And beside the border of Judah, from the east side to the west side, shall be the 1allotment which you shall 2set apart, 25,000 3cubits in width, and in length like one of the portions, from the east side to the west side; and the asanctuary shall be in the middle of it.
Remember the children of Israel wanted to go back to Egypt to eat fish, leeks and garlic, and in the same way the last generation might miss the Pharaoh of our generation.
The very fact that Isaiah 53, Zech 12, etc have been explained away as having nothing to do with Yeshua should be a big hint that the same error that my ancestors committed in the past is being repeated in our generation.
Joyce
meant to say "concerned" not "concerning"..
Joyce
Judaism has been misrepresented on this site.
Either you practice Judaism and follow it's basic tenets or you do not.
Just a reminder to the believers on the blog, the gospel will rattle people:
Matt. 5:10-13“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for ain the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Those who are true followers of Yeshua, regardless of whether you call Him Jesus or Yeshua our brothers and sisters elsewhere are being severely persecuted for the sake of this good news. There will come a day when the only people who will stand with the Jews again, will be believers in Yeshua and in the Scriptures, but for the moment the message of love disturbs some of them, especially the Orthodox Jews. When a Hitler/Pharoah type shows up, they will learn who their real friends are/
This simple truth of the gospel is so disturbing to some:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
It's not the first time a message of love was rejected. Remember what happened to Adam and Eve when they were cut off from the Tree of Life. They thought it would be easier to have knowledge about good or evil, that somehow this would save them, when God already told them how to have eternal life. They were ALREADY made in God's image and yet that wasn't good enough. They thought by their efforts and knowledge they could be better. Instead of choosing life, they chose death and separation.
Gen. 3:24 So He drove the man out; and at the beast of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Only through the blood of the Lamb, do we regain the right to eat of the tree of life:
Rev. 22:13-17 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may center by the gates into the city.
Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the assemblies. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And clet the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
This is the water of life that Isaiah was talking about:
Is. 55:1-3 “Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. “Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and beat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance. “Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live;
And I will make can everlasting covenant with you,
According to the faithful mercies shown to David.
cont'd
cont'd
Torah, without Yeshua cannot save us.. Torah is good and holy, as Paul says, but without Yeshua it condemns us to death...like eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Rom. 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom. 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Yeshua saves us, and the Law teaches us about sin and how to live as someone said earlier, but we still need Yeshua to save us from our sins. Once He does, we can live sanctified lives.
Accepting life, instead of earning our salvation is very difficult. Most people prefer to eat of the knowledge of good and evil, instead of eating of the tree of life. They want to pay, when they can eat freely. The manna was to train Israel to cease and rest in God's provision and His sufficiency. That resting includes His provision for the forgiveness of our sins. Yeshua is the bread of life, and we must learn to eat and drink of that which doesn't cost money! It's counter-intuitive.
Deut. 8:3 “He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that aman does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.
Remember the Israelites kept gathering manna when it had already been provided.
Ex. 16:27-29 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none. Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions? “See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day.
God has given with out cost, and He has give adequately, but some people reject His provision..
Heb. 4:7-11 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just aas has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
Joyce
Joyce,
Your people Joyce? Who are they? Does it depend on which group you are speaking with? Constance knows who you are and so do others. However, you remain anonymous to almost all who have read your thousands and thousands of words here. In reality they have no way of knowing whether or not you tell the truth.
You babble on saying "my people" have done this or that. Makes you sound less antisemitic and more repentent doesn't it Joyce. A nice tactic by an anonymous poster.
The antisemitism comes out more and more doesn't it Joyce. I expect any day we will hear from you how the Jews, "my people", killed Jesus.
Dorothy
One point for clarification: I staunchly disagree with Joyce on her "lost tribes" and "two stick" theologies. These are well known theologies of the "British-Israel Movement" as well as the Manifest Sons of God movement which I have battled for years.
Joyce and I have agreed to disagree on this just as Dorothy and I have agreed to disagree about Joyce's motivations and anti-New Age contirbutions to this board.
Constance
8/10/2009
Ms Cumbey wrote: “The expectations you lay out for your expected Messiah could just as well parallel the Prophet Daniel's layout for a coming world dictator who would persecute God's true people for 3 1/2 years (time, times, and half a time) and Zechariah chapter 12 when the Jewish people finally "mourn him whom they pierced.”
Dear Constance,
Your concern is not new and Jews have dealt with it for millennia, not always successfully, beginning with bar Kochba, who Rabbi Akiva thought was the Messiah, till bar Kochba was killed in his rebellion against Rome. Akiva then realized he was mistaken.
But you do not state a scenario whereby a messiah would satisfy all the prophecies I set out and still be a dictator who would persecute the people. Here are a summary of the prophecies:
• THE COMING WILL LIBERATE FIRST THE JEWS, WHO WILL RETURN TO ISRAEL, AND THEN ALL HUMANITY.
• THE TEMPLE WILL BE RESTORED
• THE COMING WILL USHER IN AN ERA OF UNIVERSAL PEACE AND JUSTICE
• THE WORLD WILL OBEY ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE TORAH ENTHUSIASTICALLY.
Your premise is that, notwithstanding this idyllic scenario, a persecuting dictator can be in charge. How is that?
Dear Len:
All dictators get their start by making things look like a promised utopia.
Constance
Constance,
Len is saying that these things will be done. You are saying these things will be promised.
Jews will say "All of these have been fulfilled. Must be that the Messiah is here."
Dorothy
8/10/2009
Dear Constance,
I have explained before that your translation of Zech. 12:10 is incorrect. It is one of those verses that has been Christianized in the Old Testament. If you look at Zech. 12, the entire chapter, you will see that the suffering one is about God's protection of Jerusalem, and how the Jews will successfully rebel against alien masters. A better translation can be found here:
http://tinyurl.com/mfdzn2
Here is the section in context:
Zech. 12:8 On that day the Lord shall protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the weakest of them shall be, on that day, like David. And the house of David shall be like angels, like the angel of the Lord before them.
9. And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son.
11. On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon.
Please note the reference to the events at Meggidon in Zech. 12:11. Then please look at 2 Kings 23:29, and 2 Chron. 35:22-23, the similar thrusting thorough of King Josiah.
Len
Constance,
What is Joyce's motivation in preaching Messianic Judaism here? She does that twenty times as much as she contributes solid information on the New Age movement.
Joyce has been distorting Judaism on this blog for 1-1/2 years. She attacked Catholicism for a long time. Now she throws in some British Israel which wouldn't have been caught without the contribution of a very alert reader who posted:
"While she may not be explicitly pro-New Age, her last comments demonstrate that her British Israelitish "two-house-oriented" propaganda that she would have everyone accept as "true Judaism" doesn't have far to go before it morphs into the neo-Nazi/White Supremacist Christian Identity pseudo-theology which has infiltrated the New Age Movement!"
I'd like to see Joyce show some balance, perhaps for the next 1-1/2 years showing the weaknesses that can be found among the followers of Christianity.
That's not going to happen. She'll just continue to distort Judaism and bash the Jewish community, all under the guise of being helpful. And the good Christians reading here will do nothing to stop her. History does repeat itself when good people do nothing.
Dorothy
Dear Len:
All dictators get their start by making things look like a promised utopia.
Constance
Dear Dorothy (and Joyce),
If you will review past blogs, I commented a long time ago about my concerns about the similarities with British Israelism and Manifest Son of God theologies.
Constance
8/10/2009
Craig asked: "In Daniel 9:24 who brings in 'everlasting righteousness?'"
Dear Craig,
The Messiah, of course; but not necessarily at that exact time. When these 70 septets were complete the Messianic age could begin. This does NOT mean that the Messiah would arrive; rather, that he could arrive, depending on behavior of the Jewish people during the subsequent exile. Six characteristics of this age, listed in Vs. 24 (with typical relevant prophecies), are:
Termination of transgression (Jer. 31:33—34)
End of sin (ditto)
Removal of all iniquity (ditto)
Arrival of everlasting righteousness (Is. 11:4-5)
Sealing of vision and prophet (fulfillment of the prophecies)
Anointing the Holy of Holies (the Third Temple) (Is. 2:2,3)”
Through the Second Temple's destruction, and the trials and tribulations of exile, Israel will mmerit the coming of the Messiah.
There is a story of several rabbis, Akiva, Gamliel, Elazar ben Azariah and Yehoshua, who approached the Second Temple Mount, after the destruction, and saw a fox emerging from the place of the Holy of Holies. All but Akiva began crying but he laughed. In explaining his laughter he said: "Surely Zechariah's prophecy will be fulfilled for he wrote: 'Old women and old men shall yet again dwell in the sstreets of Jeruusalem ... and the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets, (Zech. 8:4-5)'"
The Jews have survived through thick and thin partly becausse of our optimism even in the face of tragedy.
Len
8/10/2009
Ms. Cumbey wrote: "All dictators get their start by making things look like a promised utopia."
True; but wrt Messiah we have the solid benefit of God's promise and guarantee.
Someone once asked a king for proof of God's existence. He responded, "The Jews."
Len 1:31pm:
So, we agree that 9:24 is a Messianic prophetic text. Good!
You wrote:
Anointing the Holy of Holies (the Third Temple) (Is. 2:2,3)
1) Where is the Ark of the Covenant? My understanding is that it was never found when the temple was destroyed in 70AD.
2) How do you know the Isaiah verses refer to the Third Temple? In context, wouldn't it be the second (see 3 below)?
3) Going back to 9:24: 'Seventy 'sevens' are decreed:' decreed by whom? In context, this looks like the decree of Cyrus, King of Persia in Ezra 1:2-3.
Dorothy,
Are you saying that if Joyce is Jewish by birth, but professes Jesus while refusing to discard Jewish Torah beliefs that makes her "a New Age leader"?
Constance,
Dorothy to my knowledge has never criticized anyone, Joyce included, because he or she believes in Jesus. Rather, her criticism is based on the fact that Joyce believes in Jesus, yet claims to be a Jew.
Len and Dorothy are Jews. Joyce isn't. Unless she leaves behind Jesus (Yeshua) and converts to Judaism, she will never be.
A former Catholic-turned-Evangelical named "Gretchen" who admires Joyce posted here a few months back to the effect that what people object to is Joyce's "message" not Joyce herself. Implicit in Gretchen's argument was that people at this blog who stood up to Joyce were somehow rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.
So Gretchen, if you are reading this, you are correct--I most certainly reject Joyce's "message" that Judaism and Christianity can be blended. I will also add, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour.
Yes, the blending of religions is a New Age theme.
What a horrible thought it is for you
that someone might have come to
love the Jewish Messiah, Jesus !
Is the idea and the thought of this
Jesus of Nazareth so completely
repugnant to you because of what it
says in the Talmud, or the Kabbalah ?
Paul,
You are way, way, way out of line.
Susanna, Dawn, Rich Peterson, Constance, SV, Savvy, etc, all are Christians. Has Dorothy ever said or implied that she finds their belief in Jesus of Nazareth repugnant?
Purple Monster
But it's interesting that you characterize
yourself by your deep hatred for
one Jesus the Christ.
Paul,
I should have asked you: how does criticism of Joyce's methodology = "deep hatred for Jesus Christ?"
Do you feel that if someone criticizes Joyce that this means they hate Jesus?
If the answer is yes, do you think Susanna hates Jesus?
I am trying to understand your reasoning.
Purple Monster
Len,
What makes you think somebody very convincing might make you BELIEVE he is God's annointed when it "ain't necessarily so"?
Constance
I tend to believe theologically that Christianity and Judaism are not blendable, although also theologically, I believe the day will come when they will share common faith and beliefs. My theological beliefs are based on words of the Apostle Paul whom Len seems to distrust (so do most New Agers, not to say Len is that!). Paul said that those who trust in the Jewish law to be saved must keep the whole of the law, something that the Apostles had personally found impossible to do. They were no longer covered by Jesus Christ's blood atoning sacrifice, they had "fallen from grace."
Now, Joyce, it is clear, at least from her postings, does trust in Jesus' atoning sacrifice. My quarrel with her version is a belief that adherence to the Jewish ordinances will somehow earn her extra credits and/or "brownie points" with God Almighty.
BUT, with that being said, I believe God judges our motives, our hearts, and our intents and only HE knows those.
May God have mercy on us ALL! We are all sinners in need of grace.
Constance
Len,
How do we as Christians believe we will sort all out?
We believe that Christ's return will be in POWER AND GREAT GLORY. He will return IN THE AIR and we shall MEET HIM IN THE AIR.
If people are standing on the ground, it is a clear indicator it was a staged event, a la Peter LeMesurier's one where "even now the walk on parts are waiting in the wings, ready for the curtain to rise . . ."
Constance
Constance, you wrote:
"BUT, with that being said, I believe God judges our motives, our hearts, and our intents and only HE knows those."
Constance, you are a lawyer who is constantly called to make judgments and to present your conclusions before judges. I don't think you would get very far telling a judge, "You must let him walk because only God know the defendant's motives and intent."
If we want to know what is going on in our world, we must carefully watch and then make judgments, hopefully more correct than wrong; otherwise we walk through life like zombies.
While the comment you made is very idealistic and suggests God will make a final judgment on all of us, he did give us guidelines which we can use to make judgments as we go through life.
We cannot run away from the guidelines, commandments, given to us just to make life easier for ourselves.
Dorothy
If we need to be floating in the air for the Christian messiah and
THE WORLD WILL OBEY ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE TORAH ENTHUSIASTICALLY for the Jewish messiah, I think we are going to have a very long wait for either one. It's not going to happen in my lifetime.
Dorothy
Constance,
I want to present you with some verses so that you can see what I am talking about which is nowhere near the two theologies that you mention. The text is what I am focusing on. I don't have theories about British being Israelites:
1Kings 11:31 He said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Behold, aI will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes.
Jeroboam was an Ephraimite.
Gen. 48:14 But Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on the head of Ephraim, who was the younger, and his left hand on Manasseh’s head, 1crossing his hands, 2although aManasseh was the firstborn.
Gen. 48:15 He blessed Joseph, and said,
“aThe God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
bThe God who has been my shepherd 1all my life to this day,
Gen. 48:16 aThe angel who has redeemed me from all evil,
bBless the lads;
And may my name 1live on in them,
And the 2names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
And cmay they grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.”
Gen. 48:17 ¶ When Joseph saw that his father alaid his right hand on Ephraim’s head, it displeased him; and he grasped his father’s hand to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head.
Gen. 48:18 Joseph said to his father, “Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn. Place your right hand on his head.”
Gen. 48:19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know; he also will become a people and he also will be great. However, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and ahis 1descendants shall become a multitude of nations.”
Ezek. 37:18 “When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us awhat you mean by these?’
Ezek. 37:19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’
Ezek. 37:20 “The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
Ezek. 37:21 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will atake the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek. 37:22 and I will make them aone nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and bone king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
I'm on the run and there's a lot more verses I could give you to show that the kingdom is divided and the 10 tribes did not return from Assyrian exile as a nation, but if you are unaware of this prophecy you will see it all over Scripture once you begin to look. This should NOT be, and I emphasize NOT be confused with British Israelism. As far as MSOG, there is nothing that I have in common with that movement, but I don't have time to write about that now.
Jews are 2 1/2 tribes with some possible mixing or crossing over from Northern Kingdom, but God promises to restore the divided kingdom. We cannot simply ignore the huge number of verses that deal with this subject, not to mention the whole book of Hosea.
Len knows that I know what I'm talking about....but he may or may not admit it. He doesn't agree about Yeshua, but Orthodox know that the kingdom was divided and the tribes must come back. I haven't not specified from where because I believe they're scattered all over the earth.
God will gather Israel and Judah from the four corners of the earth...
Once you see it, you will see it all over the place.
This is the covenant of shalom,
Joyce
Dorothy,
You just might be surprised!
Constance
8/10/2009
Craig wrote: “So, we agree that 9:24 is a Messianic prophetic text. Good!”
But we probably do not agree about the identity of the “anointed” in 9:25-26 so dong feel too smug
>>You wrote: Anointing the Holy of Holies (the Third Temple) (Is. 2:2,3)
1) Where is the Ark of the Covenant? My understanding is that it was never found when the temple was destroyed in 70AD.
I have no clue and it does not matter. We know how to build arks. Every synagogue has one.
>>2) How do you know the Isaiah verses refer to the Third Temple? In context, wouldn't it be the second (see 3 below)?
Isaiah 11:4f are messianic prophecies.
4 And he shall judge the poor justly, and he shall chastise with equity the humble of the earth, and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he shall put the wicked to death. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faith the girdle of his loins. 6 And a wolf shall live with a lamb, and a leopard shall lie with a kid; and a calf and a lion cub and a fatling [shall lie] together, and a small child shall lead them.
You can agree with me on this because these did not occur during the Second Temple era.
3) Going back to 9:24: 'Seventy 'sevens' are decreed:' decreed by whom? In context, this looks like the decree of Cyrus, King of Persia in Ezra 1:2-3.
If you read Dan 9 from the beginning you would see that they were decreed by the angel Gabriel.
To understand the later verses we need to look carefully at 9:1: “In the first year of Darius son of Ahasuerus of the offspring of Media, who was made king over the region of the Chaldeans, in the first year of his reign, I Daniel contemplated the calculations, the number of years about which the word of Hashem had come to the prophet, Jeremiah, to complete the seventy years since Jerusalem’s ruin.”
This is confusing for several reasons. First there were two kings named Ahasuerus and two named Darius. Second there were two 70-year Jeremiah prophecies. If you own the ArtScroll Tanakh, this explanation will be easier to understand if you look at the timelines given in Appendix A (Timelines 4 and 5 on pages 2026 and 2027 respectively).
We can deduce that Daniel’s calculations occurred during the first Darius’ reign (Darius the Mede) because Dan. 1:21 states that Daniel was there only till Cyrus’ first year and the second Darius, the Persian, reigned about 15 years later. This is explained in the ArtScroll commentary.
Darius the Mede, reigned in the year 3390 from “creation.” This is the default standard in the ArtScroll Tanakh and I will use this system. There is a discrepancy between biblical and “historical” dates around this time but this is another subject I will not get into here.
continued
Daniel, making his computations in 3390, was confused because he thought the two Jeremiah 70-year prophecies, those of Jer. 25:12 and 29:10, were identical.
Here they are:
25:12 When the 70 years are over, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation and the land of the Chaldeans for their sins -- says Hashem --, and I will make it for everlasting devastation.
29:10 For thus says Hashem: When Babylon’s 70 years are over, I will take note of you, and I will fulfill to you My good word toward you, to restore you to this place.
These sound like the same 70 at first glance; right? However they are NOT the same. Jer. 25:12 refers to the years from Nebuchadnezzar’s ascendance, and capture of Jerusalem, in 3320, to Cyrus’ defeat of Babylon’s Balshazzar in 3390 (Ref. Timeline 5). This prophecy is about the end of Babylon and the ascendancy of Persia.
Jer. 29:10 refers to the years from the destruction of the First Temple in 3338 (17 years after Jerusalem’s destruction) to authorization, by Darius the Persian, to rebuild the Temple in 3408. Incidentally, this Darius was Queen Esther’s son. She had married Ahasuerus in the Book of Esther.
The key to identifying Jer. 29:10 with the Temple is the use of the term “word,” d’var in Hebrew. Note this is the same term used in Dan:9:2.
When Daniel saw 3390 come and go with no temple in sight he was very upset and prayed, thinking the Jewish sins to be so bad that Gd had canceled Jeremiah’s prophecy. (Dan. 9:4-20). Beginning with Vs. 22, Gabriel corrects Daniel’s misunderstanding.
Dan. 9:24-26.
Vs. 24:
“Seventy septets have been decreed upon your people and upon [Jerusalem] to terminate transgression, to end sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring everlasting righteousness, to confirm the visions and prophets, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.”
This sounds like a different subject but it is not. Seventy septets amount to 490 years. The 70-year Jeremiah 29:10 prophecy amounts to the first 70 of these 490. Gabriel confirmed that, after the 70 years, the Temple will be rebuilt (in 3408), but it will survive for only 420 more (till 3828). This is an approximate number with more exact prophecies given in Vss. 25-26.
I do not understand why there is a push to single out Dorothy (or even Len) for being Jewish.
Yes – they are both Jews – that is their choice – they were raised Jewish (I am guessing on that one) they are more than aware what Christians think about the Messiah (just read their posts) and no, we are not going to agree on some things.
Perhaps some one has felt “lead” to state the Gospel to either of them – ok, perhaps you did that and they answered, maybe not in a way that you think they should but that is not up to you – that is up to them – move on.
Dorothy has been in the fight longer than most of us I would venture to say, perhaps Len also. They have devoted their time and talent to the fight and have posted some of their info here – all I can say to Dorothy (and Len, he has kindly answered questions I have openly asked) is; Thank You - may the Lord God bless you and your family.
DouginMI
Purple Monster is absolutely right.
I have never made any secret of the fact that as a Catholic Christian I embrace Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, and never once has Dorothy or Len EVER indicated that they found my belief in Jesus Christ repugnant even if, as Jews, they didn't happen to agree with it.
Dorothy is also absolutely right about the fact that my criticisms of Joyce have NEVER in any way been intended to mean that I hate Joyce.
I recall that Dorothy once said something quite profound that I just as profoundly agree with.
She said that it is an evil thing to undermine or destroy someone's religious beliefs.
If I were not a believer in Jesus Christ, I don't think I could EVER become one if the only "Jesus" I ever experienced was at the hands of someone who had been trained to pretend to be something he/she was not while condemning everybody who didn't happen to agree that this was a perfectly moral thing to do.
Lying is NEVER moral.
Besides - and I don't care whether we are talking about Catholics or Protestants - the idea of anyone thinking they need to disguise Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in order to make Him more "palatable" to non-Christians is little more than a religious obscenity - also known as "a sacrilege!"
Let's not single Dorothy and Len out for being Jewish, nor Susanna for being Catholic (the Catholics are looking very good in this mess!), nor others for being fundamentalist or "evangelical." There are no perfect churches because there are no perfect people. If I were paid by the migraines caused by the intramural sniping, I would be a very wealthy woman. I am not. I am for tact. However, I require nobody here to bow and say, "that's YOUR reality." That's the New Age line, not mine!
Constance
Dear Joyce,
"Manassah", "two sticks," "divided kingdom", Ephraim, etc,etc., I've read it all for the past 28 years in Manifest Sons of God literature and I have a huge collection of same.
Constance
DouginMI
I couldn't agree with you more.
Unless the Jewish community had been living exclusively in some remote part of the world - or under a rock - it certainly has heard about Christianity.
The Jewish people don't need someone getting in their faces in order to learn about Christ if that is their free choice.
When a person is born and brought up in a particular religion and remains honestly faithful to it, he is said to be "living to the highest good that he knows." He is also living according to "the faith of his fathers."
And what is the Fourth Commandment?
"Honor thy father and thy mother."
I think we need to be very careful about interpreting Holy writ in such a way as to place limitations on God's Goodness, Mercy and Love.
I remember wanting to applaud the first time I read Constance's book HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW where she wrote ( and I am paraphrasing here )that there might be a few surprises on Judgement Day in terms of some honest pagan who did the best he could with the little knowledge he had standing joyous and redeemed while apostate "Christians" are left standing on the outside looking in.
A wonderful example of this is embodied in C. S. Lewis' CHRONICLES OF NARNIA - THE LAST BATTLE.
“So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable trees till lo! in a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like the ostrich, and his size as an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold and the brightness of his eyes like gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Lagour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert.Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless they desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what the truly seek.
Constance,
sniped, snip·ing, snipes
1. To shoot at individuals from a concealed place.
2. To shoot snipe.
3. To make malicious, underhand remarks or attacks.
Snipe #1
"Len knows that I know what I'm talking about....but he may or may not admit it."
Snipe #2
"It's important to know where salvation comes from. Many Jews cannot accept Yeshua because of centuries of programming. This battle is a spiritual one."
Snipe #3
"Most Orthodox Jews do understand that the tribes have to come back, but they try to call them Jews, when Scripture calls them by their tribal name and doesn't call them Jews."
Snipe #4
"Torah, without Yeshua cannot save us.. Torah is good and holy, as Paul says, but without Yeshua it condemns us to death...like eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
And these just in the last section of the thread.
If you don't want sniping, you know how to stop it. If you don't want to stop it, don't complain when others have to step in.
Len and Craig are having a very good discussion on the differences between Judaism and Christianity. They respectfully approach the topic,clarifying, disagreeing, moving on. They do not feel the need to put digs at each other into the discussion.
Joyce's posts are full of snide remarks about Jews and Judaism, unclear, and in error.
So you can feel good about putting us on the same level, here's a nice snide remark about Joyce. There are many parallels between her and Obama. Anonymous, makes no verifiable background available, charismatic, uses hypnotic speech, targets enemies, refuses to dialogue with opponents, assumes a powerful stance, accepts no challenges to perceived authority and reaches out to different audiences with a different personna.
So sorry. The topic should be New Age, but it hasn't been for a long time.
Dorothy
The discussion lately has been about differences between Judiasm and Christianity (other than that blip on the recent radar screen here) and I have learned from the conversations - I have appreciated them especially when it is a simple discussion, without cuts or snipes of any kind, from anyone.
DouginMI
Susanna, Doug Len, and others who posted anonymously,
Thanks for the support.
As a religion that others follow, Christianity has been very valuable in teaching its followers important lessons on being and doing good. It provides guidelines that are wise. I can only say positive things about Jesus as a role model. For reasons I will not discuss because there is no need to, I do not accept him as God.
I will not continuously stand by and see the value of Judaism diminished in the eyes of readers here because Jews do not believe Jesus is God, or part of God is a person goes with trinity beliefs.
Only one person does that continuously, and that is Joyce. Another chimes in occasionally.
Joyce doesn't want to give details about her business and personal life. Those of us who know the details, also know why. Her personal life doesn't matter. It's her business life that needs airing because of its connection with her posts here. But for now it's not going to happen.
Dorothy
Too All-
It has take a long time to get through all the posts since I last posted.
Doug--
You have said what I wanted to say.
Susanna
I echo your sentiments.
And as from my perspective Dorothy has never acted with anything but kindness towards me. And she knows all too well where I stand.
I will also agree (although I have learned much through Len and Craig discussion), that we should get back to talking about the New Age.
Don't you think they love our bickering and love Obama's new death... I mean health care plan?
Len @ 4:04 & 4:05pm:
I want to get back with you; but, I've been very busy today. Hopefully, later this evening I'll have the time.
I did want to say that I didn't mean to come across as smug; but, I see that how I worded some of the things in the last post came across that way. Please accept my apologies. I don't know much about Judaism; and, I don't profess to know that much about Christianity. But, I'm willing to learn!
8/11/2009
Craig wrote: "I did want to say that I didn't mean to come across as smug; "
Dear Craig,
I did not use the word as an insult. I have the most re4spect for you. "Smug" also means complacent. I wanted you to know that, though I agreed with Vs. 24 as implying a messiah that my agreement did not extend to Vss. 25and 26; verses some Christians interptret as referring to
Jesus.
Since not all Christians including scholars share such an interpretation, and you may be one of them, I will not pursue the point.
Thanks for participating in this enjoyable discussion.
Len
Constance,
I presented you with some verses from Scripture. What I'm suggesting is that yes, there are groups that have misused the verses from Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. nonetheless, these verses in the Bible have a meaning.
I have not heard anyone offer a viable interpretation to these verses, other than the one I have provided. My interpretation doesn't correspond with any British identity groups. I've never mentioned the British in any of my interpretation. Scripture interprets Scripture and this is what I've presented.
Here are the facts:
1. the Northern and Southern Kingdoms were divided after Solomon's death.
2.The Northern Kingdom went into Assyrian exile and didn't return
3. Southern kingdom several hundred years later went into Babylonian exile and did return partially.
4. God says that at some future time these two kingdoms will be reunited.
5. There is no time in history, where corporately, these two kingdoms have be reunited, but Ezekiel says they will be united and live in peace once more under a davidic king.. I'll leave all of you to decide who this davidic king is...
There are more facets to this, but I will keep it simple right now.
The Orthodox Jews believe the 10 tribes will come back and even have people who go and try to find them.
Some believe they will never come back, but don't have an explanations for the numerous verses that say they will.
British Israelism, a racist theory says that the David's line is continued in the European monarchies. This is FALSE in my opinion. I believe that the "sceptre not departing from Judah" Gen 39 was fulfilled in Yeshua. They have some long convoluted legend about Jeremiah going to Ireland and anointing Jacob's stone. I DO NOT, I emphasize, DO NOT believe this, nor have I ever said anything about the British. That is more likely to be part of a deception that could give rise to a false messiah from European monarchy... ( at least a possibility) .
Here are several more verses in addition to those I have provided which confirm Ezekiel 37.
Zech. 10:6-9 “I will astrengthen the house of Judah,
And I will save the house of Joseph,
And I will bring them back,
Because I have had compassion on them;
And they will be as though I had enot rejected them,
For I am the LORD their God and I will answer them.
“Ephraim will be like a mighty man,
And their heart will be glad as if from wine;
Indeed, their children will see it and be glad,
Their heart will rejoice in the LORD.
“I will whistle for them to gather them together,
For I have redeemed them;
And they will be as numerous as they 1cwere before. “When I scatter them among the peoples,
They will remember Me in far countries,
And they with their children will live and come back.
I especially like this verse in light of all the arguments about land in the Land of Israel:
Zech. 10:10 “I will bring them back from the land of Egypt And gather them from Assyria;
And I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon Until no room can be found for them.
Either God will accomplish His Word or He won't. I just take His Word in faith and believe what He says even if it runs contrary to human logic.. He's God, and He's able.
Joyce
As for any accusations about me being against Jews, and my comments being taken out of context, I am a Jew and I am one and very happy to be one. I love the Jewish people, but even in a family we have the right to disagree. I disagree with many of my Jewish family members, and I do mean my blood relatives as well as those from Judaism and from the Messianic Movement as well as those who are "Hebrew Christians". So what! There are those of them who disagree with me too.
Some here might want to consider the words of the very wise rabbi Gamiliel:
Acts 5:32-39 “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. But a Pharisee named aGamaliel, a bteacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in cthe Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. “For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. “After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of athe census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. “So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”
I also believe with all of my heart that Israel has the right to the Land. I believe that God will restore Israel one day in spite of our stiff-necks. I believe the promises are not because WE ARE SO GOOD, but because of who God is and His promises.
Deut. 7:6-9 “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be ba people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. “The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Jews who practice rabbinic Judaism, whether they were born into or converted, believe that a Jew who believes in Yeshua is a traitor. They don't mind if the "goy" believe in Yeshua, but when someone like me comes along and says I believe that Yeshua is the Promised Messiah and that He is deity, they consider this not only blasphemy, but they find it a threat. They consider people like me to be aiding Hitler. That has been said on this blog... when in fact my own family were killed by Hitler.
Love, does not mean agreeing with everything another says. Yeshua loved His people and often was very, very direct in speaking truth to them.. but He wept over Jerusalem knowing the destruction and judgement that was coming upon it...
I even believe those who are not physical descendants of Judah have a right to attach themselves to the family and live as full members of the family, so there is NO racism on my part, NO anti-semitism, No superiority complex because I happen to be a Jew...Others can be grafted in too!!!
Because I am incredibly opinionated and I believe the Bible ( Bereshit through Revelations) I don't believe there are 1000 different ways to be saved. I believe salvation is in ONE name and ONE Name only, and that is in the name of Yeshua, and I just happen to be a Jew. So shoot me..
Joyce
I should qualify my statement.. Not all Jews care that there are Jews who believe in Yeshua. This tends to be more among the Orthodox Jews, although I have a dear friend who was raised Orthodox and is pretty observant who I discuss these things with. She shares her views and I, mine and we are good friends, so there are exceptions to what I said.
When there is a personal relationship with people the differences in opinion are not so important.
Joyce
Sorry about the numerous posts, but there are a number of issues concerning "Joyce" most of which I will not get to respond to, but I do want to address this accusation about me and I won't mention the name of the person who wrote it.. because there is no need.
"Lying is NEVER moral.
Besides - and I don't care whether we are talking about Catholics or Protestants - the idea of anyone thinking they need to disguise Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in order to make Him more "palatable" to non-Christians is little more than a religious obscenity - also known as "a sacrilege!""
I just want to say that I don't lie or disguise Yeshua to try to make Him "more palatable".
Yeshua, the Word became flesh, from the tribe of Judah, a Jew who lived Torah perfectly and then died as a blameless sacrifice to justify the many, does not need to be "lied about". His credentials speak for themselves through the pages of Scripture. What I say about Him, I genuinely believe.
I present Him accurately, the way He lived as a Jew. I think most theologians would have to agree with that. Jews consider that He was a rabbi of His day..
If He hadn't lived Torah perfectly, His blood atonement would not save us, so it's important to remember that He was the Torah who became flesh.
There probably are people that present the gospel in a Jewish way as a "tactic" but I am not one of them. I actually believe every word that I say. I just like to be accurately represented.
Joyce
Re Joyce's comment:"I just want to say that I don't lie or disguise Yeshua to try to make Him "more palatable".
Yeshua, the Word became flesh, from the tribe of Judah, a Jew who lived Torah perfectly and then died as a blameless sacrifice to justify the many, does not need to be "lied about". His credentials speak for themselves through the pages of Scripture. What I say about Him, I genuinely believe."
As a follower of "Messianic Judaism", disguising Jesus Christ to make him more palatable to non-Christians is EXACTLY what Joyce is doing!
It is the very essence and raison d'etre of Messianic Judaism to disguise Jesus Christ in order to make Him more palatable to non-Christians!
Moreover, even if Joyce has been brainwashed into not defining what she is doing as "lying," that is also EXACTLY what she is doing. And it is IMMORAL!
Moreover, whether we are referring to the "British Israel" theory or the "Ten Lost Tribes" theory, she is impicitly peddling one or the other of these theories in such a way as to imply (check out her comments to Len) that the Jews of Israel who do not believe in Jesus Christ somehow have - for that very reason - less of a right to be in Israel than Joyce and her fellow "Messianics."
This, my friends, is a very dangerous theory!
It is really too bad that Joyce who so "likes to be accurately represented" has made a career out of misrepresenting the religious beliefs of others.
8/11/2009
Dear Susanna,
No need for me to comment!
You said it all -- and articulately.
Len
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