I came down today to the IHOP (International House of Pancakes) in my law office neighborhood. As I write these words I am still here. The party of which I write walked out the door a few minutes ago. At the large booth just ahead of me sat three management looking types discussing the woes of the economy in general and the automotive industry in particular. The waitress told me they come in often. I could not help but overhear significant parts of their conversation which concerned union contracts and industry financial sacrifices.
But then one volunteered that what really harmed them were the retirees and those near retirement with their pensions and health benefits. They laughed and said they and their doctors are sucking everything out of the system. The oldest of their number didn't laugh as loud as the other two who appeared to be late 30s, early 40s. One gentleman then said and he could be heard plainly, "What we really need is more Kevorkian* . . . that would solve the problem!" They laughingly agreed, the oldest gentleman without the apparent enthusiasm of the two others.
My manners suffered. I couldn't help it. I blurted out "SCARY." At that point, they all looked nervous and the topic immediately changed."
It was depression type pressures that led Germany to embrace Hitler's measures to euthanize the aged and the ill. It looks like similar dynamics are in place and it could well be that we are no less vulnerable than were the Germans of the 1930s.
Frightening times lie ahead and are already here for many. Stay tuned!
Constance
* "Kevorkian" refers to Dr. Jack Kevorkian who championed assisted suicide. Germans expanded on similar themes in the 1930s expanding the concept to those who if they could would choose suicide but since they were not competent to make the decision, others could and should make it for them. The nation of Holland / Netherlands has already moved forward on physician decisions that are not those of the patient for euthanasia, a euphemism for doctor murder of the patient.
290 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 290 of 290Susanna,
Since Richard Ross is affiliated with the Reformed Jewish movement, that hardly makes him an objective person on Messianic faith...
I would be shocked if he accepted that. Very few practicing Jews accept when a Jew comes to Yeshua. They consider the person dead. That would include if that person turned to Catholicism...it's just that Catholicism is less compelling ( except during the Inquisition when it was a matter of life and death). Messianic faith is the most threatening thing to Jews because it's the one faith that says they can still be Jews and accept their Messiah.
I don't consider Assemblies of God, truly Messianic. I'm familiar with their practices and they are Pentacostal Christians and most of them reject Torah, at least the ones I've been exposed to.
Joyce
"Talk about babel and confusion. This is the ultimate." That's what the cult of Joycianity is with no connection to any messianic group.
Yes Joyce, that's what your posts look like. You really have a very short attention span, jumping from topic to topic like a jumping bean on a hot stove, never discussing an idea in any depth.
Here's a challenge - discuss the Rick Ross articles on the messianic movement.
One more thing Susanna, I'm sorry to see that you prefer that Jews remain without Yeshua...
When the Catholic Church failed at "forced" conversions in the Inquisition, they gave all believers in Yeshua a bad name. The interesting thing about Messianics is they don't try to make someone a "Christian" since the original disciples of Yeshua were all Jews and stayed Jews. They just try to tell them about repentance and their Messiah. Now if you are against this too, you are really going to have to have a big argument with Peter who you call your first pope. Let's read what he said:
He preached repentance in Yeshua's name, no call to Catholicism. He must not have been a very good pope and I guess he should have been "deprogrammed" by Rick Ross too. Too bad Rick wasn't around then. ( or maybe some just like him were, the ones who didn't want the Jews to know Yeshua, the "religious leaders")
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “aRepent, and each of you be bbaptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:39 “For athe promise is for you and your children and for all who are bfar off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly atestified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “1Be saved from this bperverse generation!”
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand 1asouls.
Acts 2:42 They were acontinually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to bthe breaking of bread and 1ato prayer.
Acts 2:43 ¶ 1Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many awonders and 2signs were taking place through the apostles.
Acts 2:44 And all those who had believed 1were together and ahad all things in common;
Acts 2:45 and they abegan selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Acts 2:46 aDay by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and bbreaking bread 1from house to house, they were taking their 2meals together with gladness and 3sincerity of heart,
Acts 2:47 praising God and ahaving favor with all the people. And the Lord bwas adding 1to their number day by day cthose who were being saved.
Acts 3:1 ¶ Now aPeter and John were going up to the temple at the 1ninth hour, bthe hour of prayer.
Acts 3:2 And aa man who had been lame from his mother’s womb was being carried along, whom they bused to set down every day at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, cin order to beg 1alms of those who were entering the temple.
Acts 3:3 When he saw aPeter and John about to go into the temple, he began asking to receive alms.
Acts 3:4 But Peter, along with John, afixed his gaze on him and said, “Look at us!”
Acts 3:5 And he began to give them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.
Acts 3:6 But Peter said, “I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: aIn the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene — walk!”
Acts 3:7 And seizing him by the right hand, he raised him up; and immediately his feet and his ankles were strengthened.
Acts 3:8 1aWith a leap he stood upright and began to walk; and he entered the temple with them, walking and leaping and praising God.
Acts 3:9 And aall the people saw him walking and praising God;
Acts 3:10 and they were taking note of him as being the one who used to asit at the Beautiful Gate of the temple to beg alms, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
Acts 3:11 ¶ While he was clinging to aPeter and John, all the people ran together to them at the so-called 1bportico of Solomon, full of amazement.
Acts 3:12 But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, “Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why do you gaze at us, as if by our own power or piety we had made him walk?
Acts 3:13 “aThe God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, bthe God of our fathers, has glorified His 1cservant Jesus, the one whom dyou delivered and disowned in the presence of ePilate, when he had fdecided to release Him.
Acts 3:14 “But you disowned athe Holy and Righteous One and basked for a murderer to be granted to you,
Acts 3:15 but put to death the 1aPrince of life, the one whom bGod raised from the dead, a fact to which we are cwitnesses.
Acts 3:16 “And on the basis of faith ain His name, it is 1the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
Acts 3:17 ¶ “And now, brethren, I know that you acted ain ignorance, just as your brulers did also.
Acts 3:18 “But the things which aGod announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, bthat His 1Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
Acts 3:19 “Therefore arepent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that btimes of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus, the 1Christ appointed for you,
Acts 3:21 awhom heaven must receive until the 1period of brestoration of all things about which cGod spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Acts 3:22 “Moses said, ‘aTHE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET 1LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you.
Acts 3:23 ‘aAnd it will be that every bsoul that does not heed that prophet cshall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
Acts 3:24 “And likewise, aall the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days.
Acts 3:25 “It is you who are athe sons of the prophets and of the bcovenant which God 1made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘cAND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.’
Acts 3:26 “For you afirst, God braised up His 1Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”
Acts 4:1 ¶ As they were speaking to the people, the priests and athe captain of the temple guard and bthe Sadducees ccame up to them,
Acts 4:2 being greatly disturbed because they were teaching the people and proclaiming 1ain Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Acts 4:3 And they laid hands on them and aput them in jail until the next day, for it was already evening.
Acts 4:4 But many of those who had heard the 1message believed; and athe number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Acts 4:5 ¶ On the next day, their arulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem;
Acts 4:6 and aAnnas the high priest was there, and bCaiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of high-priestly descent.
Acts 4:7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, “By what power, or in what name, have you done this?”
Acts 4:8 Then Peter, 1afilled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “2bRulers and elders of the people,
Acts 4:9 if we are 1on trial today for aa benefit done to a sick man, 2as to how this man has been made well,
Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that 1aby the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom bGod raised from the dead — 1by 2this name this man stands here before you in good health.
Acts 4:11 “1aHe is the bSTONE WHICH WAS cREJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in ano one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Sorry for all the comments but I think we need to really clarify the issues here.
Joyce
Your creative thinking has nothing to do with factual information Joyce. If you think it, you create it is magical thinking. I thought you weren't into that.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/messianic/messianic9.html
Assemblies' evangelism of Jews creates animosity
The Miami Herald/May 17, 1985
By Adon Taft
More than half the messianic Jewish congregations in the country belong to the Assemblies of God denomination.
That was in 1985. What's the number of messianic jewish congregations connected with Assemblies of God now? Some are connected with Southern Baptists and others are connected with the Presbyterians.
Dig through all that information you have on the messianic movement and let us know the source for your statement.
All that thinking and writing between 3:02 and 3:11 am. In nine minutes you do churn out a lot of words. No wonder there is no depth in your comments.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus36.html
Strange theology.
Joyce,
Re:
When I quote specific Scriptures that are clearly in opposition to the Catholic Churches teachings like
some that I've quote already, or this you seem to avoid discussing them:
Since your "Catechism" appears to be "THE TWO BABYLONS," it isn't surprising that the "Catholicism" described by Hislop doesn't square with Holy Writ.
In any case, nice try, Joyce, but if anyone is avoiding answering a question, it is you who has avoided answering the RULE OF FAITH question for the past several threads.
So you can try to change the subject all you want,(typical cult strategy to avoid answering embarrassing/difficult questions) but I will keep coming right back to the question you have been unable to answer, which is....
Where in the Bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the "Bible only" is to be the Christian Rule of Faith???
JD, I must admit that I have a strange sense about John 3:16, may be it is because John 3:14 precedes it with Jesus using the brazen snake to illustrate what that ‘so loved the world’ would cost Him, and just what God was doing when He made Him to ‘be sin’.
Without reading the posts over, I believe that someone had mentioned that very snake.
If Farmer were watching this (maybe he is) I’m confident a 3, 30, or a 300 could be found to confirm just how strange all of this is.
Anyway JD, I sent your post to a friend, because we had just had a conversation regarding Football and the gospel. You are certainly a good ‘brother’ and I very much enjoy your contributions.
Sincerely,
Setterman
To Joyce (2:34 AM):
Joyce, you need to confess before God your SLANDER of the Catholic Church!!!
At 2:34 AM, Joyce said:
"The Catholic sacraments are 'man-made.' What we call 'eucharist' is a bad substitute for the Passover meal because transubstantiation (the little host becomes Yeshua) is another invention of the Catholic Church."
__________________________________
My reply:
"Truly, I say unto you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food indeed and my blood is true drink. He who eat my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." (John 6:53-56)
"This is My Body. This is My Blood." (Matthew 26:26-28)
"In the morning a dew lay all about the camp, and when the dew evaporated, there on the surface of the desert were fine flakes like hoar frost on the ground.
On seeing it the Israelites asked one another, 'What is this?' For they did not know what it was. But Moses told them, 'This is the bread which the Lord has given you to eat'." (Exodus 16:14-15)
"What sign, then, do you, that we may see and believe you? What work will you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the desert, even as it is written, Bread from Heaven He gave them to eat."
"Jesus then said to them, 'Amen, amen, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from Heaven,
but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven. For the bread of GOD is that which comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world." (John 6:30-32)
But Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He that comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."
(John 6:35)
"I am the bread that has come down from Heaven." (John 6:41,51,58)
At 2:34 AM, Joyce said:
" . . . baptism entails repentance for our sins . . . . An infant is incapable of this. Key word here, Repent"
__________________________________
Many raise the objection: "There is not a single example of infant baptism in the New Testament, nor is there any command to do so. Therefore Christians should not baptize babies."
But Jesus has commanded infant baptism. In Matthew 28:19 He says, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit . . .." Before He ascended, the Lord of the Church commanded us to baptize "all nations," a phrase the Church has always understood to mean "everyone." Matthew 25:31-32 also uses the phrase "all nations" in this way. All nations are to be baptized, regardless of race, color, sex, age, class, or education. Jesus makes no exceptions. He doesn't say, "Baptize all nations except . . .." Everyone is to be baptized, including infants. If we say that babies are not to be included in Christ's Great Commission, then where will it stop? What other people will we exclude?
It is true that there is no example in Scripture of a baby being baptized. However, to conclude from this that babies are not to be baptized is absurd. Neither are there any specific examples of the elderly being baptized, or teenagers, or little children. Instead we read about men (Acts 2:41; 8:35) women (Acts 16:14-15), and entire households being baptized (Acts 10:24,47-48; 16:14-15; 16:30-33; 1 Co. 1:16). The authors of the New Testament documents didn't feel compelled to give examples of every age group or category being baptized. Why should they have? Certainly they understood that "all nations" is all-inclusive.
The Bible teaches that infants are born sinful and are in need of forgiveness. Scripture says nothing about an "Age of Accountability" that begins at the age of reason. Its message is that accountability begins at conception. David confesses in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." The Bible teaches original sin, that the corruption and guilt of Adam's sin is passed on to every human being at conception. Jesus affirms this teaching when He says, "Flesh gives birth to flesh" (John 3:5). Paul takes it up in Romans 5:18: "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Furthermore, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved; he who believes not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). According to Jesus, ANYONE who does not believe in Him will be damned. Jesus makes no exception for infants. Babies will not be saved without faith in Jesus. Parents who think they are placing their children under God's grace by "dedicating" them are deceiving themselves. The only dedication that the New Testament knows of is the "dedication" that take place via baptism. That is why infants should be baptized. Like everyone else, they desperately need forgiveness. If infants die before they believe in Jesus, they will be eternally condemned. They, like everyone else, need to be baptized so that they can be born again. Jesus said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). We believe that baptism is God's special means of grace for children by which He causes them to be born again. To keep them from baptism is to keep them from forgiveness and to endanger them with damnation.
There is no shortage of controversy surrounding Rick Ross, his methods, and the motivation which inspired him to be viewed by many as an "expert" on who and what HE defines as a cult. It didn't take me long as I began reviewing Ross's Institute Archive
of "destructive cults,controversial groups and movements" to recognize an overwhelming bias on Ross's site. He clearly has a particular distaste and revulsion for "fundamentalist-Christians" and any religious organization supportive of
"messianic Jews" and /or Israel based on Biblical belief.
Not surprisingly, defining a "cult" from a Christian apologetics viewpoint (based on the deviation from scripture in the teachings of a particular religious group) will differ from a worldview coming from a humanistic perspective. Rick Ross definition of a "cult" has its focus on behavior rather than theology. This poses a "problem" for any of us who unashamedly would define ourselves as "fundamentalist believers" (Jew or Gentile) in the exclusive message of Jesus Christ as the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.
"Ross became concerned about controversial religious groups in 1982, when a group that targets Jews for conversion infiltrated the Jewish nursing home in Arizona where his grandmother was a resident. Working with the director of the facility and the local Jewish community, Ross managed to stop their involvement. This led to work with the Jewish Federation of Greater Phoenix, and an appointment to two national committees by the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (UAHC), one which focused on cults and another concerned with interreligious affairs."
http://tinyurl.com/a455ks
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Rick-Ross#Websites_opposed_to_Rick_Ross
A Christian Apologetic point of view regarding Rick Ross
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/130-rick-ross
Rudy,
Yes, I would agree with your assessment of Ross.
Joyce
Susanna,
One of the big problems is when we don't understand the idioms of a culture and we try to take expressions literally like it's raining cats and dogs. Eat my body and drink my blood is a Hebrew idom. Look at the book of Jeremiah:
Jer. 15:16 Your words were found and I ate them,
And Your words became for me a joy and the delight of my heart;
For I have been ccalled by Your name,
O LORD God of hosts.
Is this meant to be literal? Do we "eat words"? No of course not. This is merely a figure of speech. Yeshua did not want us to literally "eat His body" because that would be cannibalism. Yeshua meant to take in all that He had taught, all that He was about and to drink the Living water of His Word, not to literally eat His body.
1Cor. 5:8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, anot with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Interestingly, Paul is talking about "the Feast" after the death and resurrection of Yeshua. the Feast by the way is Passover.. Eating unleavened bread is likened to walking blamelessly since leaven represents sin. Paul was not talking about the Eucharist, but the Passover, when unleavened bread is eaten.
Is. 58:10 And if you give yourself to the hungry
And satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
Then your light will rise in darkness
And your gloom will become like midday.
Giving ourself to the hungry? Does that mean letting them eat us, or does it mean pouring our lives out on those who have spiritual needs so that they will be satisfied? Do you see how Hebrew idioms show up all over the Scriptures? This is why understanding them is important in order to understand the Scriptures properly.
The manna did represent Yeshua, but it wasn't Yeshua's body. It was teaching the Israelites to walk in dependance on God and trust Him for their provision and to not gather on the Sabbath, the 7th day which Catholicism cancelled, to learn walk in dependance on God and to be in communion with Him listening to His voice. The Wilderness or the Midbar is a place of "hearing" so it wasn't so much about "eating" as it was about "hearing" and obeying the voice of God. Since the Israelites were previously in slavery they needed to go in the Wilderness to learn how to hear "the Word of God". You actually proved my point. Bread isn't literally about bread, it's about spiritual nourishment which we get from the Word of God.
I think this verse indicates that we are neither to add or take away from God's Word:
Deut. 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
So... I will ask you how does the Catholic Church justifying subtracting the fourth Commandment.. Thou shall keep the Sabbath holy.
Seems to me that the Catholic church has a lot of false prophets:
Deut. 18:20 ‘But the prophet who speaks a word apresumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’
Deut. 32:47 “For it is not an idle word for you; indeed ait is your life. And bby this word you will prolong your days in the land, which you are about to cross the Jordan to possess.”
His Word is our very life..
Psa. 33:4 For the word of the LORD ais upright,
And all His work is done bin faithfulness.
Psa. 33:6 ¶ By the aword of the LORD the heavens were made,
And bby the breath of His mouth call their host.
Psa. 56:4 aIn God, whose word I praise,
In God I have put my trust;
I shall not be afraid.
bWhat can mere 1man do to me?
Psa. 56:10 In God, whose word I praise,
In the LORD, whose word I praise,
Psa. 103:20 Bless the LORD, you aHis angels,
bMighty in strength, who cperform His word,
dObeying the voice of His word!
Psa. 105:8 ¶ He has aremembered His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a bthousand generations,
Psa. 105:19 Until the time that his aword came to pass,
The word of the LORD 1btested him.
Psa. 105:42 For He aremembered His holy word
With Abraham His servant;
Psa. 106:24 Then they adespised the bpleasant land;
They cdid not believe in His word,
Psa. 107:20 He asent His word and bhealed them,
And cdelivered them from their 1destructions.
Psa. 119:9 ¶ How can a young man keep his way pure?
By akeeping it according to Your word.
Psa. 119:11 Your word I have atreasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against You.
Psa. 119:16 I shall 1adelight in Your statutes;
I shall bnot forget Your word.
Psa. 119:17 ¶ aDeal bountifully with Your servant,
That I may live and keep Your word.
Psa. 119:25 ¶ My asoul cleaves to the dust;
bRevive me caccording to Your word.
Psa. 119:28 My asoul 1weeps because of grief;
bStrengthen me according to Your word.
Psa. 119:38 aEstablish Your 1word to Your servant,
2As that which produces reverence for You.
Psa. 119:41 ¶ May Your alovingkindnesses also come to me, O LORD,
Your salvation baccording to Your 1word;
Psa. 119:42 So I will have an aanswer for him who breproaches me,
For I trust in Your word.
Psa. 119:43 And do not take the word of truth utterly out of my mouth,
For I 1await for Your ordinances.
Psa. 119:49 ¶ Remember the word to Your servant,
1In which You have made me hope.
Psa. 119:50 This is my acomfort in my affliction,
That Your word has 1revived me.
Psa. 119:58 I asought Your favor bwith all my heart;
cBe gracious to me daccording to Your 1word.
Psa. 119:65 ¶ You have dealt well with Your servant,
O LORD, according to Your word.
Psa. 119:67 aBefore I was afflicted I went astray,
But now I keep Your word.
Psa. 119:74 May those who 1fear You asee me and be glad,
Because I 2bwait for Your word.
Psa. 119:76 O may Your lovingkindness 1comfort me,
According to Your 2word to Your servant.
Psa. 119:81 ¶ My asoul languishes for Your salvation;
I 1bwait for Your word.
Psa. 119:82 My aeyes fail with longing for Your 1word,
2While I say, “When will You comfort me?”
Psa. 119:89 ¶ aForever, O LORD,
Your word 1is settled in heaven.
Psa. 119:101 I have arestrained my feet from every evil way,
That I may keep Your word.
Psa. 119:105 ¶ Your word is a alamp to my feet
And a light to my path.
Psa. 119:107 I am exceedingly aafflicted;
1bRevive me, O LORD, according to Your word.
Psa. 119:114 You are my ahiding place and my bshield;
I 1cwait for Your word.
Psa. 119:116 aSustain me according to Your 1word, that I may live;
And bdo not let me be 2ashamed of my hope.
Psa. 119:123 My aeyes fail with longing for Your salvation
And for Your righteous 1word.
Psa. 119:133 Establish my afootsteps in Your 1word,
And do not let any iniquity bhave dominion over me.
Psa. 119:140 Your 1aword is very 2pure,
Therefore Your servant bloves it.
Psa. 119:148 My eyes anticipate the anight watches,
That I may bmeditate on Your 1word.
Psa. 119:154 aPlead my cause and bredeem me;
Revive me according to Your 1word.
Psa. 119:158 I behold the atreacherous and bloathe them,
Because they do not keep Your 1word.
Psa. 119:160 The asum of Your word is btruth,
And every one of Your righteous ordinances cis everlasting.
Psa. 119:162 I arejoice at Your 1word,
As one who bfinds great spoil.
Psa. 119:169 ¶ Let my acry 1come before You, O LORD;
bGive me understanding caccording to Your word.
Psa. 119:170 Let my asupplication come before You;
bDeliver me according to Your 1word.
Psa. 119:172 Let my atongue sing of Your 1word,
For all Your bcommandments are righteousness.
Psa. 130:5 ¶ I wait for the LORD, my asoul does wait,
And 1bin His word do I hope.
Psa. 138:2 I will bow down atoward Your holy temple
And bgive thanks to Your name for Your lovingkindness and Your 1truth;
For You have cmagnified Your 2word 3according to all Your name.
Psa. 139:4 1Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You aknow it all.
Psa. 147:15 He sends forth His acommand to the earth;
His bword runs very swiftly.
Psa. 147:18 He asends forth His word and melts them;
He bcauses His wind to blow and the waters to flow.
Psa. 148:8 aFire and hail, bsnow and cclouds;
dStormy wind, efulfilling His word;
I could fill this whole blog with the Words of Scripture that say how important God's word is and how that is what we're supposed to pay attention to and how God has spoken through the prophets and now His Son, but it won't matter. I can tell you how God says not to add or subtract from His Word, but that won't matter either because you are finding rational to follow the Catholic Church instead of following God Himself.
This is the biggest problem for anyone. When we follow a person, a Pope, a Pastor whoever an organization instead of being in an intimate relationship with God Himself we are on the wrong track. The Catholic Church wants your allegiance to be to them. Just the creed alone shows that... Every Sunday Catholics say "I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for the forgiveness of sins."
EXCUSE ME! Since when did we need the Catholic Church to forgive sin.. This is the height of blasphemy and thea anonymous person that told me to repent needs to repent themselves, not to me but to God, for repeating this blasphemy every Sunday, instead of giving your honor and worship to Yeshua. We are not to worship a church, a Pope an organization. Our relationship is through ONE mediator and ONE mediator alone and that is Yshua HaMashiach, the King of Kings..
If you notice in the Bible, all the great men and women of God had a relationship with Him, not with an institution. All you have to do is read story after story about those who followed His Word and those who didn't. God may not have used Susanna's wording to say that His Word is all that matters, but He says it all over Scripture.
Every time someone didn't follow His Word they had defeat in battle, they were exiled, they weren't blessed, they didn't prosper. Read every story in the Bible and it is evident that those who God said were righteous were the ones that believed in His Word period. Look at the Hebrews hall of faith Chapter 11.
If you have read the Bible for a number of years, this wouldn't even come up as a subject of discussion.. "Your Word is a Lamb to my Feet, a Light to My eyes"....
I am blind without God's Word. The Catholic Church has tried to control the faith for years by not letting people read in their own language, only the clergy, by keeping people in the dark about the good news of forgiveness of sin and our New Identify in Messiah. There is no mortal sin, venial sin.. these are all made up phrases that the Catholic Church came up with. Indulgences are the biggest scam that ever existed... Get people to give money to be forgiven!!!
I already gave the list and if you want to know, you'll read it but if you don't you'll just repeat the same question that has been answered over and over to which I will say, "open your Bible, begin at Genesis and read till Revelations".
The last verse of Revelations says the same thing as Deut 4. If anyone adds or takes away...God will add or take away the curses in this prophecy.
Adding and taking away means canceling commandments. Inventing new feast days, new dietary laws that never existed, new rules about celibacy, new ideas saying that the Pope is infallible ...that would make him like God.. if it were true, which it's not. We had plenty of fallible Popes in history, some who were illegitimate children of other Popes.... The Churches prohibition on sexual relations for their clergy never stopped the clergy from having them.. they just had them with children...little altar boys. That's what I call cursed.
The Vatican has secret archives. They have taken things from Jerusalem that don't belong to them. They have killed many Jews and others in the Inquisitions.. I guess burning people at the stake for wanting to make the Bible available in the language of the people is a crime punishable by death. ( John Huss) What about the poor Hugoneuts . Their crime was hidding Bibles behind mirrors in their houses.
If these are the kind of traditions you want to add to God's Word, you'll have to explain how you justify these.
The Catholic Church has committed abominations for centuries and has gotten away with it. The Pope is a powerful political figure which is why even non-Catholics bow to him. He has riches and power that have nothing to do with the humility of Yeshua... The Catholic Church bears absolutely no resemblance to the person it is supposedly founded on ( neither Mary-Miriam or Yeshua) .
Neither one of them would have bowed down to statues or a Pope..Miriam was a humble 1st century Jewish woman who happened to have the honor of bearing Yeshua through miraculous intervention and raising Him for a of years. She hae the sadness of watching Him crucified, but beyond that the Bible doesn't say much about her. She was a special person chosen of God but between that and being venerated and having statutes and pictures.. and being considered as "co-redeemer" by the Catholic Church.. .come on!! It's all just too, too much.
My answers probably won't penetrate short of a divine revelation, so I'm going to call it quits for now.
Joyce
I know what the Catholics believe about baptism, but Scripture doesn't support the fact that a priest sprinkling water on a baby's head means anything.
Baptizing an unwilling person doesn't do a think. Unless the person believes in his mind and confesses with His mouth.. faith is not just imputed by the sprinkling of water.
Parents can pray for their kids, raise them in the fear and knowledge of God, dedicate them to Him, but they cannot believe for them..
Each one of us must work out his or her own salvation.
Sprinkling is simply not Biblical period, end of story.
Joyce
I meant to say "do a thing" not think.
Hope that was evident.
Joyce
Young Grasshopper
Thanks for bringing this up……..
Here are some websites that have the lucky charms our next president carries.
This is a good picture
http://www.time.com/time/
politics/whitehouse
/photos/
0,27424,1811278,00
.html
this one is ok too, small piture, but it can be saved and made bigger
http://www.suntimes.com/
news/
metro/1025837,
CST-NWS-LUCKY26
.article#
This next one is a very good close up of the miniature Hindu god Hanuman he carries in his pocket. Though some don’t agree that it is Hanuman. He really is not a Christian you can tell……..
http://www.khaitan.org/
blog/?p=231
On this sites someone makes this comment: “I love the fact that he carries different amulets, open mind=intelligence. Here is the video of the casual press conference he held on an airplane.
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=D22-dzp-g5U
and also the LUCK charm
http://metalmorphosisinc.com
/search_results.aspx?Type=QuickSearch&Entry
=luck#_top”
Rose
Joyce,
Quite frankly, it doesn't really matter what "Jewish movement" Rick Ross is affiliated with since the information he has posted on his website about Messianic Judaism is mostly news reports from many different news sources with very little editorializing on his part except for one or two articles - as anyone can see who clicks onto the link I am reposting here.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/messianic.html
Joyce,
Re:Is this meant to be literal? Do we "eat words"? No of course not. This is merely a figure of speech. Yeshua did not want us to literally "eat His body" because that would be cannibalism. Yeshua meant to take in all that He had taught, all that He was about and to drink the Living water of His Word, not to literally eat His body.
By what authority do you know it is merely a "figure of speech?"
If you do "know" you don't "know" it from the Bible, that's for sure.
And by your own "Bible only" rule of Faith, you would have to prove FROM THE BIBLE that this was merely a "figure of speech" if you want to avoid stepping on your own airhose.
Today, as it did in His time, Christ's call to "eat of his flesh and drink of his blood" has been a stumbling block for many believers.
When Christ repeated these words in his famous speech at the synagogue in Capernaum he was not speaking symbolically, and most importantly no one there interpreted him as such.
If they did how could they have asked, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (John 6:52). And even more so why would they leave him on account that this is a "hard saying" (John 6:60), leave him and not have him call them back explaining to them that he was speaking symbolically?
__________________________________
As for your other comment:
"Sprinkling is simply not Biblical period, end of story."
Your "not Biblical" mantra doesn't hold water unless you can prove from the Bible that the "Bible only" is to be the Christian Rule of faith in the first place.
At 2:34 AM, Joyce said:
"The Catholic sacraments are 'man-made.' What we call 'eucharist' is a bad substitute for the Passover meal because transubstantiation (the little host becomes Yeshua) is another invention of the Catholic Church."
__________________________________
Jesus instituted the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, in the presence of His 12 apostles, at the Last Supper on Holy Thursday, the day before he was crucified and died for the sins of all mankind.
"And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to His disciples, and said: 'Take ye, and eat. This is My body.' And taking the chalice, He gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: 'Drink ye all of this. For this is My blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto the remission of sins'." (Matthew 26:26-28)
Joyce,
Re: I can tell you how God says not to add or subtract from His Word, but that won't matter either because you are finding rational to follow the Catholic Church instead of following God Himself.
My rationale is right straight out of the Bible (that you regard as your "only" rule of faith) where Jesus says to Peter and the Apostles:
"HE WHO HEARS YOU HEARS ME" Luke 10:16
Jesus said, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).
(Jesus did NOT say, "Everyone except infants.")
Strange theology
http://www.rickross.com/reference/jews_for_jesus/jews_for_jesus36.html
Appearing at
http://www.rickross.com/groups/messianic.html
And again Joyce, what messianic groups do you affiliate with?
Then Yeshua must have made an exception for the thief on the cross, since He said to him, "this day you will be with me in paradise".
David, in speaking about his infant son who died within a week ( he wasn't circumcised since that is the 8th day) said this:
2Sam. 12:23 “But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? aI will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
Since David spoke prophetically what should we say, the child wasn't "baptized" i.e. sprinkled so the baby will perish hell? Heavens no..
God does not judge a baby who dies prior to the age of accountability based on whether water is sprinkled on their head or not.. This is absurd.
Yeshua said to let the children come to Him because the Kingdom is for such as these...There is no such thing as the "removal of original sin" . Yes we are born dead in our trespasses, and we need to be "born again" but the expression "original sin" also "venial sin" "mortal sin" are all inventions of the Catholic Church. When Yeshua paid for our sins He didn't qualify it. He paid for sin, period.
Disobedience is a choice just as following Yeshua is a choice. I cannot do it for my children as nice as that would be, because God requires each of us to make that decision, whether we want to follow Him or not.
Now let's look at the Greek lexicon's definition of baptism:
908. ba¿ptisma; baptisma, baptismatos, to (baptizoœ), a word peculiar to N.T. and ecclesiastical writings, immersion, submersion;
1. used tropically of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed: Matt. 20:22f Rec.; Mark 10:38f; Luke 12:50 (see baptizoœ, I. 3).
2. of John’s baptism, that purificatory rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to a spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah’s kingdom soon to be set up: Matt. 3:7; 21:25; Mark 11:30; Luke 7:29; 20:4; Acts 1:22; 10:37; 18:25; (19:3); baptisma metanoias, binding to repentance (Winer’s Grammar, 188 (177)), Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24; 19:4.
3. of Christian baptism; this, according to the view of the apostles, is a rite of sacred immersion, commanded by Christ, by which men confessing their sins and professing their faith in Christ are born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, come into the fellowship of Christ and the church (1 Cor. 12:13), and are made partakers of eternal salvation; (but see article Baptism in BB. DD., McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia, Schaff-Herzog): Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:12 (L marginal reading Tr baptismoœ which see); 1 Pet. 3:21; eis ton thanaton Rom. 6:4 (see baptizoœ, II. b. aa. at the end). (Trench, sec. xcix.)*
909. baptismo/ß; baptismos, baptismou, ho (baptizoœ), a washing, purification effected by means of water: Mark 7:4,8 (R G L Tr in brackets) (xestoœn kai poteœrioœn); of the washings prescribed by the Mosaic law, Heb. 9:10. baptismoœn didacheœs equivalent to didacheœs peri baptismoœn, Heb. 6:2 (where L text, WH text, baptismoœn didacheœs), which seems to mean an exposition of the difference between the washings prescribed by the Mosaic law and Christian baptism. (Among secular writings Josephus alone, Antiquities 18, 5, 2, uses the word, and of John’s baptism; (respecting its interchange with baptisma cf. examples in Sophocles’ Lexicon, under the word 2 and Lightfoot on Col. 2:12, where L marginal reading Tr read baptismos; cf. Trench, sec. xcix.).)*
910. baptisth/ß; baptisteœs, baptistou, ho (baptizoœ), a baptizer; one who administers the rite of baptism; the surname of John, the forerunner of Christ: Matt. 3:1; 11:11f; (Matt. 14:2,8; 16:14; 17:13); Mark 6:24 (T Tr WH tou baptizontos), Mark 6:25; 8:28; Luke 7:20,28 (T Tr WH omit), Luke 7:38; 9:19; also given him by Josephus, Antiquities 18, 5, 2, and found in no other secular writings (Joh. d. Täufer by Breest (1881), Köhler (1884).)*
A baby, does not have the capacity to decide.
The problem I see with Catholicism, among many others is that there is too much trust in vain rituals where a person is not required to decide anything.
I do believe there is precedence for someone to pray for the salvation of their household and trusting that later on God will touch their family members, believing in faith but there is not one image of infant baptism in the Bible, and certainly not by sprinkling because that was NEVER, EVER practiced. Mikvah is total immersion, so if you believe in baptism, you need to immerse your entire body from head to toe.
In front of the Temple in Jerusalem the place where the 3000 had a huge mikvah is known the day of Shavuot/Pentecost.
The problem is that because you have not experienced what it means to identify with Yeshua in His death, burial and resurrection you cannot understand what I am talking about. There is a difference. Instead of believing the history you get from the Catholic Church read the Scriptures:
Matt. 3:6 and they were being abaptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.
Even Yeshua modeled it for us by being immersed:
Matt. 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and 1ahe saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and 2lighting on Him,
Then in Acts, there's the Ethiopian eunuch:
Acts 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Philip even went down into the water with him..
Look what happened to Paul who was "blind" both physically and spiritually.
Acts 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;
Rom. 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been abaptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Being baptized means that we must be able to identify with Yeshua's death. If we have not "died" with Him when we enter the waters of baptism, we cannot be "born again". There must be a recognition of the "old man" dying and a new creation who emerges from the water. This is the mean of baptism and that's why it is by immersion and done when someone can understand.
We can dedicate our children to the Lord at birth. We can circumcise them, but remember circumcision never saved anyone and neither does ritual baptism. Rituals do not save, but change of mind does..
I was dead walking in my trespasses and sins, and I was convicted of my sins, and at that point with God's Spirit convicting me leading me to understand that I could not save myself, I turned to Yeshua. When I realized all of my human efforts were not adequate for a holy God I accepted conciously, willingly His substitutionary atonement in my place. As an act of obedience ( which babies cannot do) I was baptized with HIm, signifying that I was dead, the old person, who sinned, upon emerging from the water, I was acknowledging that I was born again in newness of life, His Life. It is no longer I who live but Messiah living in me. The old me is gone, dead buried ( significance of immersion) and the NEW CREATION who has Messiah dwelling in her, and I in Him is alive..new birth.
My people, Ancient Israel had to go through the Red Sea, the Jordan. God took them as slaves to bring them to a place where He offered them the covenant of marriage...to be His people, Torah. He took them once more through water with their leader Yehoshuah ( Joshua) to enter the Promised Land. He taught them what they would have to do to walk with Him as His bride.
They were slaves, but He gave them a new identity. They were His treasured possession, no longer slaves.
By the same token when we, who were sinners were walking dead in our trespasses, Yeshua died so that we could once again "become a people" . You who were not a people, became my people, said the prophet Hosea. You on who I had no compassion, I will have compassion.
God was explaining that He would once again bring Israel ( the Northern Kingdom )into the desert and get her attention. After cutting them off completely as a people, He would make them a people. How would He do this? Through the death and resurrection of His Son.
If you examine the historical record, the Northern Kingdom went into Assyrian exile never to return, the only way to return after God effectively divorced them and then He died for them. You see Yeshua's death and resurrection first and foremost was for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. He sent His disciples out for these Lost Sheep who were cut off for disobeying Torah, which is the definition of sin.
God loved Israel so much that even after we committed spiritual adultery, which He fully knew would happen, He had a plan of redemption, that He would effectively pay the legal price of our penalties.
Since Yeshua was coming first and foremost for the Lost Sheep of Israel, and the first believers were from the House of Judah, we can know from the Scriptures and believe that they were immersed fully from head to toe in water, so what changed?
An article on the history of baptism which shows once again how the Roman Catholic Church thought they could change practices that had been done for centuries and centuries even if Yeshua Himself observed the practice, showing once again that the Church thought it was above the Word of God and that it's traditions, its man-made traditions were more important that God's very clear and explicit Word:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#VII
Where is one verse where Yeshua talks about "sacraments". There is no such word in His vocabulary.
For more rubbish that the Vatican is up to, let's look at the article on Apostolic Penitentiary, which is soooooo secretive that most of us never heard of it.
http://tiny.cc/Xg3qw
Excuse me but who the heck is the Pope that he is the one that decides what sins are forgiven. He has put himself in the roll of God and He will be judged for this abomination. God and God alone knows the condition of a sinners mind and if they are sincerely repentant and the seriousness of the sin is not the issue, but the sincerity of the person's repentance.
King David committed adultery and murder, Moses committed murder, Paul looked on with delight at murder. These men were forgiven because they believed in God's promises and His forgiveness..Peter denied Yeshua three times, and he was forgiven.. All of this took place without the intermediary of a Pope...
I will repeat what Scripture says;
1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
One MEDIATOR, not priest, no Pope...Yeshua is sufficient.
The Vatican has a new capital, a new vocabulary for their religion: Pope, Vatican, Sacraments, transubstantiation, venial sin, mortal sin, extremunction, infant baptism by sprinkling ( that's a oxymoron, baptism is only by immersion, sprinkling is sprinkling, baptism is baptism) holy matrimony, Confirmation, catechism, nuns, celibacy, the virgin mother, the holy father, canonization, confessional, the host, the eucharist,papal infallibility, papal bulls ( bull indeed) etc,etc,.
You can continue to try to justify the abuse of Catholic power. What's the explanation for the Inquisition? 20 percent of Spain's population are probably Jews that converted centuries ago at fear of death because of the lovely edict of Pope Ferdinand and Isabella.. The Maraonos had to live out their Jewish belief in fear of being killed so they "obeyed God's commandments in secret" because of the Catholic Church who wanted to impose conversion on the Jews.
Here's a short video of the Catholic torture that took place in those days, when the Vatican was also making rulings on baptism in the Middle Ages...the same papal authority that committed the Inquistion made decisions about Scripture.. Kind of puts it in perspective.
http://tiny.cc/1tOPV
Joyce
Joyce
Richard Bennett a former Catholic brings up some important and interesting facts about the Catholic Church history:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/inquisit.htm
Joyce
Another interesting page:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/index.htm#rc
There's a lot of very good information concerning Roman Catholicism on his site and here as well:
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/
He's was an ordained Jesuit, the elite of the Catholic Church..
Anyone who wants to read up.
Joyce
excuse me Richard was trained by the Jesuits..
He was an ordained priest.
Joyce
This is his testimony. Richard almost died and when he was recovering he studied the bible and found the truth. He gives testimony of 50 Catholic priests who left the priesthood and also nuns.
http://tinyurl.com/9y9uf8
He talks about his "Greek" training.
What is amazing about his testimony was he was from the Republic of Ireland, which is amazing because the South fought against Northern Ireland which is predominately Protestant so he would have been going against everything he had been raised to believe.
Joyce
More Joycianity. What messianic groups are you affiliated with? Is this a way of avoiding any criticism of your messianic affiliations if they were exposed?
Is Dorothy still writing on the blog, just anonymously?
How Joyce can spit out so much venom and slander - and imagine that God is smiling down on her - is beyond comprehension!!!
To the anonymous posters,
I am only speaking truth about what the Catholic Church actually did.. If the truth offends you please don't shoot the messenger.
Joyce
Joyce,
Re:Then Yeshua must have made an exception for the thief on the cross, since He said to him, "this day you will be with me in paradise".
It is good that you would not want to focus on God's Justice at the expense of His infinite Mercy.
If you went to Catechism or attended Catholic school, one of the basic things you should have learned is that according to Catholic teaching - whether you NOW agree with it or not - is that there are three forms of Baptism......baptism of water, baptism of desire and baptism of blood.
Catholic Christians do not baptise by "aspersion" ("sprinkling"). They baptise by "infusion" (pouring water over the head of the one being baptized while the Trinitarian formula is pronounced.)
Our Lord didn't clearly specify which mode of baptism was to be used so long as the matter (water) and form(words) of the Sacrament were present. In practical terms, during times of persecution, immersion in the local river or in a pool specially constructed for the purpose of baptising may not have alweays been feasible.
BAPTISM OF BLOOD
The notion of being baptized by shedding your own blood for Christ and/or his Church grew up during the Roman persecutions. And the Catholic Church has always revered these unbaptized martyrs — people who die for their faith — maintaining that the divine mercy of God wouldn't penalize them or ignore their sacrifice merely because they died before their Baptism by water.
http://tinyurl.com/9zgot8
BAPTISM BY DESIRE
Part of Catholic theology is the Universal Salvific Will of God, which is just a fancy way of saying that God basically would like for everyone, all men and women, to join him in heaven. Men and women have free will, though, so he offers the gift of grace, but men and women must freely accept and then cooperate with it...
People who lack any knowledge of Christ and his teachings are sometimes called anonymous Christians, and they don't consciously, deliberately, and willingly reject Christ and his Catholic Church, so they aren't responsible for not knowing the whole truth. Therefore, the Church believes in Baptism by desire, which allows salvation for non-Christians who, through no fault of their own, haven't yet accepted Christ explicitly but nonetheless live good, moral lives as if already Christian. Only those who consciously, deliberately, and willingly reject Christ are considered liable.
If people in their heart of hearts are sincerely disposed to God's will but, through no fault of their own, don't know about Jesus Christ — or they've never been shown by word and good example — then the Church presumes that they possess an implicit desire to be baptized. If someone had told them and given good example, they would've freely and willingly embraced Christianity and asked for Baptism by water.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say about Baptism by desire:
Since Christ died for all ... we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility ... Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God ... can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. (1260)
http://tinyurl.com/9zgot8
Re your comment:Since David spoke prophetically what should we say, the child wasn't "baptized" i.e. sprinkled so the baby will perish hell? Heavens no..
God does not judge a baby who dies prior to the age of accountability based on whether water is sprinkled on their head or not.. This is absurd.
You also mentioned that the baby wasn't circumcised.
There is a clear connection between baptism and circumcision in the Bible.
For example:
Col. 2:11, 12: "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; buried with him in baptism, whereas also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." .
In Matthew 5:17 Jesus says:
17 "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Ergo,we Catholics believe that Baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision, and that Jesus' New Covenent is the fulfillment of the old one. Moreover, it makes just as much sense to baptise a baby as it does to circumcise one. And just as male infants come into the Old Covenant of God through the faith of their parents so do infants likewise come into the New Covenant (where in Christ there is "neither male nor female" ) through the faith of their parents.
As you yourself rightly pointed out, it is to be noted that when people were bringing their babies for Jesus to touch and the Apostles tried to stop them, Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for to such as these belongeth the kingdom of heaven." Luke 18:15-16, also Matthew 19:14.
When Jesus told the Apostles to baptise in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, He did not specify what age a person had to be in order to qualify for the Sacrament of Baptism. And indeed, in many instances WHOLE HOUSEHOLDS were baptised in response to the Good News.
For us Catholics, the Sacrament of Confirmation is "completion of our Baptism."
From the article on Confirmation found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
ARTICLE 2 - THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION
1285
Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the "sacraments of Christian initiation," whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.[88] For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."[89]
http://tinyurl.com/8bw7gu
Also...........
Sacrament of Confirmation perpetuates Pentecost
2. To understand all the riches of grace contained in the sacrament of Confirmation, which forms an organic whole with Baptism and the Eucharist as the "sacraments of Christian initiation", it is necessary to grasp its meaning in the light of salvation history.
In the Old Testament, the prophets proclaimed that the Spirit of God would rest upon the promised Messiah (cf. Is 11: 2) and, at the same time, would be communicated to all the messianic people (cf. Ez 36: 25-27; Jl 3: 1-2). In the "fullness of time" Jesus was conceived in the Virgin Mary's womb through the power of the Holy Spirit (cf. Lk 1: 35). With the Spirit's descent upon him at the time of his baptism in the River Jordan, he is revealed as the promised Messiah, the Son of God (cf. Mt 3: 13-17; Jn 1: 33-34). All his life was spent in total communion with the Holy Spirit, whom he gives "not by measure" (Jn 3: 34) as the eschatological fulfilment of his mission, as he had promised (cf. Lk 12: 12; Jn 3: 5-8; 7: 37-39; 16: 7-15; Acts 1: 8). Jesus communicates the Spirit by "breathing" on the Apostles the day of the Resurrection (cf. Jn 20: 22) and later by the solemn, amazing outpouring on the day of Pentecost (cf. Acts 2: 1-4).
Thus the Apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit, begin to "proclaim the mighty works of God" (cf. Acts 2: 11). Those who believe in their preaching and are baptized also receive "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2: 38).
The distinction between Confirmation and Baptism is clearly suggested in the Acts of the Apostles when Samaria is being evangelized. It is Philip, one of the seven deacons, who preaches the faith and baptizes. Then the Apostles Peter and John arrive and lay their hands on the newly baptized so that they will receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8: 5-17). Similarly in Ephesus, the Apostle Paul lays his hands on a group of newly baptized and "the Holy Spirit came on them" (Acts 19: 6).
3. The sacrament of Confirmation "in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church" (CCC, n. 1288). Baptism, which the Christian tradition calls "the gateway to life in the Spirit" (ibid., n. 1213), gives us a rebirth "of water and the Spirit" (cf. Jn 3: 5), enabling us to share sacramentally in Christ's Death and Resurrection (cf. Rom 6: 1-11). Confirmation, in turn, makes us share fully in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit by the risen Lord.
The unbreakable bond between the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is expressed in the close connection between the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. This close bond can also be seen in the fact that in the early centuries Confirmation generally comprised "one single celebration with Baptism, forming with it a "double sacrament', according to the expression of St Cyprian" (CCC, n. 1290). This practice has been preserved to the present day in the East, while in the West, for many reasons, Confirmation came to be celebrated later and there is normally an interval between the two sacraments.
Since apostolic times the full communication of the gift of the Holy Spirit to the baptized has been effectively signified by the laying on of hands. An anointing with perfumed oil, called "chrism", was added very early, the better to express the gift of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, through Confirmation Christians, consecrated by the anointing in Baptism, share in the fullness of the Spirit with whom Jesus is filled, so that their whole life will spread the "aroma of Christ" (2 Cor 2: 15).
http://tinyurl.com/93ujpz
With regard to the death of unbaptised babies, no one can know for certain what becomes of them since Scripture is largely silent on the matter. But The Catholic Church places stress on the truth that God wills the salvation of all. Recent theological thought is invoked, as is the sensus fidelium. Salvation through the faith of others is considered.
Several years ago, a fellow Catholic friend of mine miscarried a set of twins. I was to be their godmother. In my diocese the Catholic cemetery has a section reserved for "Holy Innocents" and this is where my friend's twins were buried. I attended the service which was conducted by our pastor. As most Christians know the "Holy Innocents" were those children under two years old who were murdered by Herod after he heard about the birth of Our Lord from the Magi. After being warned of Herod's plan in a dream, Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt with the infant Jesus and remained there until it was safe for them to return home.
Grett post, Susanna!!!
Also, with the Sacrament of Confirmation, we Catholics become "soldiers of Christ."
With the help of God the Holy Spirit, we are better equipped to fight against the temptations of Satan . . . and also those who would spend their time spreading anti-Catholic propaganda against the church that Jesus Chrit Himself founded.
Great post, Susanna!!!
Also, with the Sacrament of Confirmation, we Catholics become "soldiers of Christ."
With the help of God the Holy Spirit, we are better equipped to fight against the temptations of Satan . . . and also those who would spend their time spreading anti-Catholic propaganda against the church that Jesus Christ Himself founded.
Joyce
RE:"Where is one verse where Yeshua talks about "sacraments". There is no such word in His vocabulary."
You quoted a lot of passages in the Psalms and other Old Testament Books about God's WORD, but God's WORD was transmitted by way of the ORAL TRADITION as well as the WRITTEN TRADITION.
The two are inseparable in the Old Testament as they are in the New Testament which was transmitted orally before it was written down and the canon established.
There is Scriptural justification for the Catholic Rule of Faith.
As a Catholic, you should have known what the Catholic rule of Faith was; namely, Scripture and Sacred Tradition:
What is Tradition?
In this discussion it is important to keep in mind what the Catholic Church means by tradition. The term does not refer to legends or mythological accounts, nor does it encompass transitory customs or practices which may change, as circumstances warrant, such as styles of priestly dress, particular forms of devotion to saints, or even liturgical rubrics. Sacred or apostolic tradition consists of the teachings that the apostles passed on orally through their preaching. These teachings largely (perhaps entirely) overlap with those contained in Scripture, but the mode of their transmission is different.
They have been handed down and entrusted to the Churchs. It is necessary that Christians believe in and follow this tradition as well as the Bible (Luke 10:16). The truth of the faith has been given primarily to the leaders of the Church (Eph. 3:5), who, with Christ, form the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20). The Church has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who protects this teaching from corruption (John 14:25-26, 16:13.
Newman’s argument
He wrote: "It is quite evident that this passage furnishes no argument whatever that the sacred Scripture, without Tradition, is the sole rule of faith; for, although sacred Scripture is profitable for these four ends, still it is not said to be sufficient. The Apostle [Paul] requires the aid of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15). Moreover, the Apostle here refers to the scriptures which Timothy was taught in his infancy.
"Now, a good part of the New Testament was not written in his boyhood: Some of the Catholic epistles were not written even when Paul wrote this, and none of the books of the New Testament were then placed on the canon of the Scripture books. He refers, then, to the scriptures of the Old Testament, and, if the argument from this passage proved anything, it would prove too much, viz., that the scriptures of the New Testament were not necessary for a rule of faith."
Furthermore, Protestants typically read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context. When read in the context of the surrounding passages, one discovers that Paul’s reference to Scripture is only part of his exhortation that Timothy take as his guide Tradition and Scripture. The two verses immediately before it state: "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:14–15).
Paul tells Timothy to continue in what he has learned for two reasons: first, because he knows from whom he has learned it—Paul himself—and second, because he has been educated in the scriptures. The first of these is a direct appeal to apostolic tradition, the oral teaching which the apostle Paul had given Timothy. So Protestants must take 2 Timothy 3:16-17 out of context to arrive at the theory of sola scriptura. But when the passage is read in context, it becomes clear that it is teaching the importance of apostolic tradition!
The Bible denies that it is sufficient as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2). He instructs us to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).
This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).
And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: "So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ" (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit "Christ’s word" to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.
Further, it is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. "’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you" (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been "preached"—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be
supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority.
This is made clear when the apostle Paul tells Timothy: "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). Here we see the first few links in the chain of apostolic tradition that has been passed down intact from the apostles to our own day. Paul instructed Timothy to pass on the oral teachings (traditions) that he had received from the apostle. He was to give these to men who would be able to teach others, thus perpetuating the chain. Paul gave this instruction not long before his death (2 Tim. 4:6–8), as a reminder to Timothy of how he should conduct his ministry.
http://tinyurl.com/9uf2ks
Which brings us right around tothe same question I have been asking over and over....and not just to be argumentative either:
Where in the bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the Bible only is to be the Christian Rule of faith???
The reason why I do not accept your "Bible only" rule of faith is simply because it is NOT Biblical!
Susanna,
You said,"People who lack any knowledge of Christ and his teachings are sometimes called anonymous Christians, and they don't consciously, deliberately, and willingly reject Christ and his Catholic Church, so they aren't responsible for not knowing the whole truth. "
Based on the above, I'm led to assume that those who have willingly left the Catholic church are held responsible. In your opinion does this mean that they are going to hell?
Anonymous 8:25 P.M.
First of all, I was quoting an article when I wrote,
"People who lack any knowledge of Christ and his teachings are sometimes called anonymous Christians, and they don't consciously, deliberately, and willingly reject Christ and his Catholic Church, so they aren't responsible for not knowing the whole truth. "
Regarding your question:
Based on the above, I'm led to assume that those who have willingly left the Catholic church are held responsible. In your opinion does this mean that they are going to hell?
It depends on why the person left.
Since Vatican II, there are probably a good number of Catholics who have been "educated" by "Catholic" dissenters (including priests) and are also not responsible for not knowing the whole truth.
The late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen once said that it was his belief that few people really hated the Catholic Church. It was his opinion that many people hated what they THOUGHT was the Catholic Church.
At the end of the day, only God can know what is in a person's heart, so I would never presume to arrogate to myself a prerogative that belongs to God.....namely judging other peoples' motives.
LOL Interestingly, there are plenty of folks who seem to KNOW that Catholics are going to Hell in a handbasket for NOT leaving the Cathoic Church!
Susanna,
I don't believe that oral tradition in Judaism is "God's Word". There are some traditions that can be helpful, but are optional. Judaism was not what God gave Israel. God gave Israel Torah and the Jews have added tradition and said it's from Moses, most of which was developed in Babylon. There might have been things past down from earlier times, but there isn't much proof of this and if God wanted it to be His Word, He would have specified that. Some of the traditions are helpful and some aren't. I am not against people having traditions if they don't obscure or contradict or attempt to replace God's Word with them.
Some of Judaism has developed in opposition to Christianity as well.. I'm speaking of Judaism after the Temple was destroyed and the Jews were scattered again. The Hebrew roots of our faith were lost with this schism and a number of historical factors played a role in this, some of which I discussed on the blog before.
During the time of Yeshua and His disciples they were part of Second Temple Judaism, but you don't see them accepting all of the traditions. Yeshua was the Living Torah so He could certainly interpret it correctly i.e. healing on the Sabbath is good, not bad.. Yeshua was against the men who used their traditions to annul God's Word.
A lot of His teachings showed that these very traditions obscured God's intentions. He was always teaching what Scripture really meant because with the codification of Torah, the Jews of the Second Temple period had lost touch with that. David, understood this. We seem him constantly turning to God's Word. Psalm 119 reveals his heart about Torah. You notice, when you read it that David is talking directly to God. Abraham spoke to God, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Moses, Joshua, David, etc..
Judaism is what developed in exile. The reason they were in exile is because they disobeyed God's Word in the first place and so codifying Torah was a way to try to "ensure adherence to Torah". Not sure that our flesh patterns can be changed by codifying anything. We need a renewed mind which can only happen in relationship with the Living God who speaks to us through His Word.
The wilderness is where Israel "hears God's voice" and the Promised Land is face to face relationship with Him. Sometimes Israel was in the Promised Land but behaved like there were in exile. Usually this resulted in them getting kicked out. God would use pagan kingdoms to discipline His people, although He never forgets His people.
It's important to see exile as having wandered from God's Word and not be able to hear Him. Why did Adam and Even get kicked out of Gan Eden. They were in Him, in delight and removed and even though the Tree of Life was guarded by angels, who had a flaming sword, we see angels guarding God's word again in the Tabernacle which held the tablets, the mannah and the rod of Aaron representing the priesthood. At that time there was a mediator who could only go into the HOly of Holies once a year on Yom Kippur.
When Yeshua died, the veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom, signifying that there was no need for an intermediary because He was now our high priest who cleansed our sins in heaven when He shed His blood.
The elaborate explanations in the Bible about all of this are for a reason.. so we can understand what happened at Yeshua's death and resurrection, but if we obscure this relationship and put layers of people and traditions between us and Him we cannot have that direct access to the throne that He granted us. We will not understand our New Identity as a New Creation, in Him. We will not have the freedom to go to throne with boldness and confidence in our time of need. We will not have the assurance of our new birth. We will depend on traditions and rituals to save us when the Yeshua has already saved us. We cannot add to this.
All we can do is rest in it and worship Him and obey Him in response to what He has done for us. All we can do is get to know Him better in intimate face to face relationship by listening to His Word.
All I am saying to you is the veil has be torn. You don't need an intermediary Susanna. The freedom is that your sins have been paid for in full and if you trust in Yeshua's death and resurrection, you have a new identity. Your "old man" has been put to death and now you have a "new identity in Yeshua". It's not me who says this but the Scriptures.
This is what make the good news, good news.. All you have to do is believe and walk in this truth.
All the great men of the Bible Moses, David, Josiah, Hezekiah, all of the Prophets, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea, Zechariah, etc. listen to God's Word. You never hear these folks talking about "tradition".
You quote to me the traditions and how they have developed from the Church's interpretation of Scripture. I'm familiar with a lot of Catholic traditions although I don't remember all because it's been many years since I learned all of it. The sad thing is you are going through "a church" to have your relationship with God, instead of going directly to Him.
God is showing us throughout His Word how to be in relationship with Him and the Catholic Church and has intervened in this direct relationship and told people they need another intermediary. Not only do they need another intermediary, but the intermediary has the right to alter God's word and calendar which is eternal. This is just contrary to all Scripture teaches. We cannot alter what God has said is eternal..
This is exactly the problem Yeshua was having with the corrupt religious leaders who saw to it that He was crucified. They were adding to the Word, but not obeying what it said. This is how they justified giving Him over to the Romans. Israel was under a corrupt Roman government and instead of understanding Yeshua was the same One who lead them out of Egypt, they asked Pharaoh to crucify Him.. I'm making an analogy here. The Jews were in Israel ( the Promised Land) but technically they were in exile because Rome was oppressing them, so what do they do? They ask Rome to help them get rid of God..
Remember that the generation in the Wilderness wasn't much better. They wanted to get rid of Moses and go back to Egypt too, except for a couple of righteous men who heard God's voice.
Yeshua's disciples were the few righteous men of their generation who understood and heard God's voice, but after their generation died off, Satan knew he could not squelch the gospel, so what did he do? He mixed the gospel with the Roman and empire, which in turn had assimilated things from the Greek, Assyrian and Babylonian empires.
This is why we end up with feasts that are not in the Bible, traditions that are not in the Bible.. The Living Word was once again brought into exile so that the people could not see who they really were. They could not see themselves as being grafted into the Olive Tree ( Israel) but rather as a new religion.
God has given us the Tree of Life, it's Yeshua the Living Torah. We are to grab hold of this, not of religion. We are to get our nourishment from the source, not reinterpreted over and over until the original meaning can not longer be understood. If you can see the Bible as a whole, instead of through the grid of Catholic interpretation, you can go and read it and ask God to show you and speak to you about it. You can ask Him to renew your mind.
I'm not even suggesting you leave the Catholic Church. Just open the Bible and pray and ask God to reveal to you what He wants to show you in His Word. If you love Yeshua, you should be able to trust Him to do this. It is actually something He delights in doing, speaking to His children.
Yeshua's didn't set up this big hierarchy. Remember His disciples were at the table with Him.
When He rose, He showed them how Moses and the Prophets spoke of Him. The truth of who His is sets us free. It's not religion, it's relationship.
I'm not going to address all the Catholic doctrine that you wrote because we could go back and forth for a long time.
For whatever reason, your upbringing, you are very attached to the Catholic Church, so you are unable to really hear what I am saying I think? It's not that you are not smart enough, but because your ideas are very much formed by Catholic thinking and you seem unwilling to question that even if I bring up the atrocities that the Church has done, you seem to accept their infallibility. I have been in Catholicism and thought through the things I'm discussing with you, so it's not that I'm not aware of what they say, it's just that I vehemently disagree.
What is clear to me is that the Bible has been stripped of its hebrew roots by Catholicism, because Catholicism wanted to "replace Israel" Historically this played out by the Catholic Church persecuting Jews and others who disagreed with them, forcing conversions on people through infant baptism, appropriating pagan feasts to accommodate the people in the nations where they wanted to spread Catholicism, giving authority to an imaginary priesthood that God did not ordain, keeping authority over the Scriptures for centuries until people went to their death to stand up for having the Scriptures dispersed among the people.
The Catholic Church has directly disobeyed commands about trying to depict God, and call their leader "Father" and make up new rules that never existed. They have tried to divorce their faith from the very hebrew origins of the one they say it's founded on. They are leading the ecumenic movement which I believe will give rise to the false prophet who will act in conjunction with the anti-messiah.
When I say I have nothing against you, I sincerely mean it. I know a lot of Catholics like you are very attached to "their religion". I have nothing against them at all. I just see the Church itself as completely errant and playing a major role in end times apostasy. If I talk about it hear, it's to point that out to folks on the blog.
Religion is a very emotional thing too, so my comments are not always received in the spirit which I intend, so I understand that it might seem like I am criticizing you, because I am questioning the system that you believe in. It's really hard to see the forest through the trees. You were probably born and raised Catholic and have practiced it your whole life.
The elaborate explanations that the Catholic Church has invented to rationalize what they teach do not correspond with Scripture, nor do they try to because they say the religion is 50 percent Scripture and 50 percent tradition. Since they hold themselves up as the authority who has the right to determine what Scripture says at a certain point it becomes a waste of time to discuss it with someone like yourself, who is very sincere, but very dependent on the Catholic Church to interpret Scripture for you. What I mean by that is that you accept their interpretations without question. Your answers reflect this. I have never heard you once say well maybe the Church is wrong about this or that, which leads me to think that you do accept their absolute authority over interpretation.
I'll pray that the Lord reveals to you, whatever it is He wants to reveal.
Blessings,
Joyce
One more thing, Susanna. It would be interesting for the folks on the blog to hear about how you view salvation, what happens when we die, eschatology, etc.
Another words, as a devout follower of the Catholic Church what do you believe will happen to you when you die? What assurances to we have about the afterlife?
Do you believe you are "born-again"? What does being born again actually mean? Do you believe in a literal 7 day creation, and if so why or why not?
What is going to happen to the world as we know it today i.e. the times of the end...
I'm sure your views are quite different on this, and would have an impact on how you see a lot of the issues we are talking about.
What do you think about the antimessiah?
What do you think God's plan is for Israel?
Do you think Israel has the right to dwell in the Land? Are God's promises to Israel eternal or temporary?
Who is Israel? ( probably would want to answer this first)
If it's not too much trouble, when you have a chance, I wonder if you could address some of this just so others can understand the context that you are coming from. You don't have to if you're not inclined, but I think it would be interesting to see where there are similarities and differences. I don't mean pages and pages, just some short answers.
Blessings,
Joyce
So Joyce, what connections do you have with messianic groups. As you know, there are difference between the groups. Or, are you a one woman cult?
Joyce,
I think there are folks on the blog who have been waiting for several threads now to hear your answer to my question - where in the Bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the Bible only is to be the Christian Rule of Faith.
Another thing is that as a former devout follower of the Catholic, Church, you should KNOW what the Catholic Church REALLY teaches about what happens when we die, eschatology, etc.
But if anyone REALLY wants to know what I believe as a Roman Catholic he/she need only go back and reread the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds that I have already posted (Creeds, by the way, that the Orthodox and many Protestants also agree with) and consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Even if folks don't agree with what I believe, at least they will know what I DO believe.
Here is the Catechism of the Catholic Church online for anyone who might be interested in knowing what I believe as a Roman Catholic.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm
Now, Joyce, back to my question....
Susanna,
I have answered your question....The Bible says all over the place how important God's word is and how we should not turn left or right and how Yeshua did not come to annul it and how we should not add or subtract to it. If God did not word the answer to your question exactly the way you phrased it that doesn't mean that the Bible didn't answer it. As you may know the Bible utilizes many different literary devices and teaching styles from parables, to poetry to metaphor to literal instructions and there is much repetition I can get you all the Scripture references again, but I don't think there's any need since I already did although I'm always happy to search the Scriptures if you really want me to repeat myself.
God's Word is lamp, it's a light to the eyes, it's a sword, it's the bread of life, it's the living water. It is seed planted which produces fruit. It is the tree of life, it is Yeshua...If God has put so much emphasis on His Word, why would we want to pay attention to man made traditions, rather that His Word that is alive and sharper that a two-edge sword able to divide bone from marrow..
Why would God put so much emphasis on HIs Word in the Bible if He wanted us to replace it with vain human wisdom.
You have probably not had the pleasure and privilege of just opening the Word with some brothers and sisters and just digging into and allowing it to speak to you..
Do you study the Bible every day? I'm curious because I know that many Catholics own Bibles, but rarely open them. Would you study it and just let God speak to you, or would you feel like you have to read what the Church's doctrine is? I'm not criticizing you, but trying to understand..
Why would we want a mediator when God has given us direct access to His Throne? Do you see that in Messiah, we are now a kingdom of priests..
If the Bible puts as much emphasis on the Word being a Lamp to our feet and a light to our eyes, and not altering it and not disobeying and guarding it. If Moses and Joshua and all the Kings of Israel were writing it down, and if Yeshua only quoted from it, not from traditions, I would say that is ample evidence that Scripture is the most important thing. I never used the expression "Sola Scriptura". I don't have any problem with traditions that point us to the Word of God as long as we don't give the same value to traditions as we do to the Word of God. Even Protestants, Evangelicals or Messianics have traditions in the way they conduct their services so it's nearly impossible to avoid traditions, but I do have problem with traditions that alter the Word of God and I think this is key..
Where is the exact verse in Scripture that says 50% of our practice should be based on man-made traditions instead of the Word of God? I think this might be a better way to phrase the question..because this is effectively what the Catholic Church says. Binding and loosing had to do with halachic authority was not to change God's Word, but to determine how to live out what the Word already says. The probably is when we "annul God's Word with our traditions as Yeshua said. Apostles didn't have the right to cancel Torah but rather render decisions on in especially in light of the new believers from the nations. How do we know this?
After the Acts 15 council decision, James adds because Moses is taught in synagogues all over every Shabbat. James expected new believers to learn Torah. The halachic judgement was not to try to weigh them down with all the practices that people who were born Israelites knew inside and out, but to make rulings that would allow for table fellowship and not defile these new believers and they would come and hear Moses and grow. What the apostles were saying was, they are part of the Commonwealth of Israel, no longer strangers to the covenants and their sanctification will come little by little as they study Torah and grow. The Apostolic Scriptures would never contradict what the Torah says because God is not a man that He should lie.
What has been done with this verse in Acts 15 in the history of Christianity is amazing. It has been used to annul the Torah when it is clear that the Apostles were not annulling the Torah at all. They never stopped celebrating Shabbat, Passover etc.
Should Jews continue to observe Torah?
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all bzealous for the Law;
The book of Acts seems to think it's okay.. In fact so did Paul, when he did the rites of purification.
I was hoping you would answer me in your own words about my previous question, not with another link. I would like to hear in your words what you think. about these things I asked in your own word, based on Scripture of course.
In my faith, I know that God's can lead us in all truth so we can pray and read His Word and He will give us understanding. That is not to say that I don't learn things from others. My faith is living, because the God I serve is living and His Word is living... i.e. He said He will be what He will be and it is up to us to discover who He is, not to leave that to others. That's what relationship is based on.
In my marriage, I don't take someone else's explanation of who my husband is. I spend time with him, listen to him, share with him and have gotten to know him over many years. It is like this with God.. You cannot know God through a catechism. You can only know Him through His Word, which is how He communicates with us, and His Word is alive, it is Life..
I pray that you will know Him this way.
Blessings,
Joyce
No, Joyce - you still have NOT answered Susanna's question:
Where in the Bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the Bible only is to be the Christian Rule of Faith?"
No, Joyce - you still have NOT answered Susanna's question:
Where in the Bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the Bible only is to be the Christian Rule of Faith?"
No, Joyce - you still have NOT answered Susanna's question:
Where in the Bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the Bible only is to be the Christian Rule of Faith?"
"I don't mean pages and pages, just some short answers.
Blessings,
Joyce
We know the organization Susanna is connected with, but we don't know what organizations you are connected with Joyce. I'm beginning to think you are making up your religion as you go along.
Dorothy said she wouldn't comment on the blog, but she's hear incognito...
"anonymous"
I guess we can't bash your organizational connection because you don't have one. You make up your religion as you go along it seems. Hard to keep up with that.
Joyce,
No, Joyce you have NOT ansqwered my question. All you have done - perhaps without even realizing it or out of sheer force of habit -is to quote endless Scripture passages to which you have applied YOUR OWN - or someone else's - interpretations.
None of them say that the Bible only is to be the Christian Rule of Faith.
Moreover, where in the Bible does it say that private interpretation is allowed? I can quote you the passage where the Bible says that private interpretation is NOT allowed:
2Peter 1:20-21
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I can also quote you a Bible passage that justifies adhering to Sacred Tradition:
2 Thessalonians 2-14: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Timothy 2-2: And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Sounds pretty "clearly stated" to me.
Regarding your comment:
As you may know the Bible utilizes many different literary devices and teaching styles from parables, to poetry to metaphor to literal instructions and there is much repetition........
Maybe I would know that because my rule of faith is Scripture and the Sacred(not man made)oral Tradition.
The more pertinent question is how would YOU know that? The only way you could know that is if YOU were following a "tradition" of some sort because the exact terms "literary devices" and "metaphors" are certainly NOT in the Bible.
If you are going to claim that the use of the word "Trinity" and other descriptive terms that are not explicitly in the Bible are invalid for that reason, then you had better not use any that are not explicitly in the Bible either.
The "plain meaning" is all you are allowed according to your own rule.
Re: your comment:
There might have been things past down from earlier times, but there isn't much proof of this and if God wanted it to be His Word, He would have specified that. Some of the traditions are helpful and some aren't. I am not against people having traditions if they don't obscure or contradict or attempt to replace God's Word with them.
Sacred Tradition includes the writings of the Church Fathers, many of whom were also Bishops and Martyrs. Since Our Lord said that "greater love hath no man than this than that he would lay down his life for his friends," I think the Church Fathers who died for the Christian faith as martyrs are very trustworthy custodians of the deposit of faith.
Regarding your question:
Do you study the Bible every day? I'm curious because I know that many Catholics own Bibles, but rarely open them. Would you study it and just let God speak to you, or would you feel like you have to read what the Church's doctrine is? I'm not criticizing you, but trying to understand..
Just about every day. I own a Catholic Bible that was given to me many years ago by my grandmother. When I read the Bible, I read it in and with the Church. My Bible is footnoted and I have also read A CATHOLIC COMMENTARY ON SACRED SCRIPTURES.
Contrary to what many believe, the Catholic Church encourages everyone to read and study the Bible. However, the Bible is not subject to private interpretation.
As we see with private interpretation, which many devout Protestants believe ( most likely in good faith )is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, there are many and often contradictory interpretations of the Bible within the Protestant communion. How is one to know which "Holy Spirit guided" interpretation is the right one?
Regarding your statement:
Where is the exact verse in Scripture that says 50% of our practice should be based on man-made traditions instead of the Word of God? I think this might be a better way to phrase the question..because this is effectively what the Catholic Church says.
Unfortunately,in terms of "tradition" many non-Catholic Christians confuse "discipline" with "doctrine."
For example, clerical celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine and can therefore be changed by the Church. (It is to be noted that men are not forced to become priests. They do so voluntarily and they are well aware of the discipline of celibacy BEFORE entering the seminary and long before taking their solemn vows at ordination.)
On the other hand, doctrine such as the Nicene Creed
cannot be changed.
Sacred Tradition as understood by Catholics is NOT man made. It is also Biblical.
Susanna,
I didn't say I was a "Christian" so you keep repeating "Christian rule of faith" ... I don't believe there is a "Christian rule of faith". You are starting off with a wrong premise. I am a Jew, and as such a literal descendant of Abraham, so I believe the promises of God to Abraham are true, have not been canceled and neither has Torah. So far, the Bible has predicted everything that would happen to my people.
In Torah,( in the broad sense Torah, the Prophets and the Writings) there is no "new religion" that is called for but only a restoration plan for MY PEOPLE along with the nations.
The problem is you keep reading the Bible with a very "New Testament" mentality adding to what you think the "New Testament" has said, and you don't read it from Genesis, or if you do you discount everything up to the book of Matthew. This leads to interpretations that are incoherent.
God never said He was forming a "new Assembly". He has always, always, always talked about restoring the old one. So one must ask the question, "what does restoration mean?" Well He tells us. He says He will put Torah on our hearts in Jeremiah and other places as well. The NEW Covenant, which is better translated Newer Covenant is that.
Since the Catholic Church believes that God is no longer dealing with Israel, but dealing with them it has set up a whole new system, complete with new leader ( the Pope) new calendar ( the Gregorian calendar) new feast days ( holidays the pagans used which were "christianized") new rules ( instead of Torah, the Catholic catechism) etc.
You can't understand what I am saying because you have forgotten that first and foremost God was speaking to Israel. He hasn't stopped dealing with Israel and the nations are supposed to attach themselves to Israel, not Israel to the church.
With this view all of Scripture is skewed, so it's not about "rule of faith" that you are discussing. It's an utter distortion of the Scriptures. Marconian was the first to want to throw out the "Old Testament" .
God did not downgrade the Tanakh. The change in Tanakh was Yeshua's priesthood, but yet there remain hundreds of prophecies yet to be fulfilled. It you downgrade the Tanakh, you don't read it as future promises.
You read the Apostolic Scriptures as if they are something completely separate and don' see the texts of Scripture as part of the same plan. There are things in the Tanakh and the Apostolic Scriptures that haven't been fulfilled yet. God revealed things to Daniel that He revealed to John, but He also said things to Ezekiel that help us to understand Revelations better. If we don't see the book as one book we discard those prophecies and can't see how they fit into the Apostolic Scriptures.
Do you believe the Roman Emperor Constantine had the right to change the Sabbath that God instituted at the Creation, gave to Israel as an eternal ordinance, even though no where in the Bible does it ever say it was changed?
I will answer that for you. Yes, the Catholic Church changed God's sacred calendar. It is not by putting the word "sacred" in front of your traditions that that makes them sacred. Muslims think it's sacred to pray towards Mecca with their rear-ends towards Jerusalem, but does that make it sacred or is that just their tradition.
The believe that Mohamed received instructions from the Angel Gabriel, so maybe their "sacred tradition" superceeds the Catholic one.
The point is Susanna if God can change, why did He stop at Nicea, why not with Mohamed?
Either God's Word is eternal, when He says it's eternal or it's changeable, but if you can change it than the everyone should convert to Islam, since they think the day of worship is Friday, and they have the final prophet. They only have their book in Arabic, and don't have a lot of "different doctrines" like the Protestants. They believe in Isa ( Jesus) and the Virgin birth.
You see the problem with your theory is that it contradicts Genesis to Deuteronomy, which means that God would have had to have lied to the Patriarchs and Moses, which we know He didn't.
The problem with "Sacred Tradition" is that it is ONLY understood by Catholics, but doesn't correspond with the Scriptures.
Deut. 5:12 ¶ ‘Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
Deut. 5:14 but athe seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who 1stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
Is. 66:23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.
ALL MANKIND will worship God on the Sabbath!!
I guess the Catholic Church's "sacred tradition" is more important that God's Word!
The Catholic Church altered the Word of God, which is what is sacred, not their tradition.
You see the nations will go to the house of the Lord to learn Torah:
Mic. 4:2 Many nations will come and say,
“Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For from Zion will go forth the law, (Torah)
Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
No one is going to be going up to Rome, or hearing the word of the pope, and it's not the Catholic catechism that is going for from Jerusalem. It is not "sacred tradition" that is going forth from Zion.
We will celebrate Shabbat and learn Torah in the Kingdom.
Because the Catholic Church has discounted about 2/3 of the Bible then added their "sacred tradition" to the rest.. they will not recognize the deception that will come. God is restoring Israel, not a Catholic Church because there was none to restore.
The "sacred tradition" which is not sacred at all because it goes against the Word of God, which is unchanging. is a big smokescreen that has been cast over the Bible.
When you remove the smokescreen you can read Scripture clearly.
God speaks clearly against invalidating His Word with manmade traditions:
Matt. 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
You can't answer this because you know as well as I do that the Catholic Church changed Shabbat at the Council of Nicea, as well as Passover, added in Christmas which had nothing to do with Yeshua's birth, etc.
There is the problem and YOU have not answered this, but you have put your traditions over the Word of God..
This verse fits the Catholic Church perfectly:
Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
The Catholic Church thought they could annul the 4th Commandment. Well here's what Yeshua has to say about that:
Mark 7:8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
I could go on about this but I think it's fairly clear and the Catholic Church admits changing the Sabbath commandment, so I guess the Catholic Church has put themselves over God.
It's unfortunate that many Protestants do not see this problem and the Catholic Church knows that they don't see it.
In the last days it's our testimony of Yeshua and the keeping of His commandments that is important. That is the seal of God.
Rev. 20:4 ¶ Then I saw thrones, and bthey sat on them, and cjudgment was given to them. And I saw dthe souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they hcame to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
You see Susanna, it says the "word of God" not the sacred traditions of the Catholic Church.
Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to amake war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and dhold to the testimony of Jesus.
I guess the Catholic Church thinks that somehow the 4th commandment didn't count.. We can just dispose of that and follow the traditions of the Roman Emperor Constantine ( an anti-semite) rather than follow the commandments of God.
If you can't see it in black and white then maybe God Himself will show you.
Of course if you want to follow man instead of God you will have the teachings of man, but as for me an my house we will follow the Lord.
Joshua did not turn either left or right but did everything that God commanded.
Josh. 1:8 “aThis book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may 1be careful to do according to all that is written in it; bfor then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will 2have success.
Josh. 8:31 just as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the sons of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, aan altar of uncut stones on which no man had wielded an iron tool; and they offered burnt offerings on it to the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings.
Josh. 8:32 He awrote there on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which 1he had written, in the presence of the sons of Israel.
Josh. 8:34 Then afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in athe book of the law.
Josh. 22:5 “Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
Josh. 23:6 “Be very firm, then, to keep and do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, so that you may not turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left,
and in Torah:
Deut. 30:10 1if you 2obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which aare written in this book of the law, 1if you turn to the LORD your God bwith all your heart and soul.
What about Paul:
Rom. 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom. 3:31 Do we then nullify 1the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Matt. 5:17 -19 “Do not think that I came to abolish the aLaw or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. “For truly I say to you, auntil heaven and earth pass away, not 1the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished “Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches 1others to do the same, shall be called least ain the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OR STROKE..
I guess the 4th commandment somehow doesn't count... There are many more things the Catholic Church "erased" but I'm just pointing out the most obvious thing..
Well I guess the Roman Catholic Church thinks they are above God. What can we say about this?
I think Scripture has quite a bit to say.
Josh. 24:26 And Joshua awrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD.
The "change in the Torah" was that it was put on our hearts.
Joyce
Joyce,
Re your comment:
I didn't say I was a "Christian" so you keep repeating "Christian rule of faith" ... I don't believe there is a "Christian rule of faith". You are starting off with a wrong premise. I am a Jew, and as such a literal descendant of Abraham, so I believe the promises of God to Abraham are true, have not been canceled and neither has Torah.
Then there is really little else for us to discuss, because I AM a Christian.
Moreover, YOU are the one who started this debate a few threads ago when I was minding my own business and trying to learn something from someone else and you butted into my discussion and got in my face with your anti-Catholic diatribes.
So now that you can't answer the one question I have asked you, you are desperately trying to "push my buttons" in hopes that we can divert the discussion away from that question.
It's not going to happen, Joyce. Here is the question.
WHERE in the Bible does it clearly state that the BIBLE ONLY is to be the Christian Rule of Faith???
Since you cannot defend your position Scripturally, the only one following "man made traditions" here is YOU!
Also, since you are the one who started this debate, the burdon of proof in on you, not me.
If I really believed you wanted to learn something and understand what I believe as a Roman Catholic Christian, I might have gone out of my way a little more because as long as I have been commenting on this blog, unless someone asked me for information about what Catholics believed or unless it was to clarify something I have never tried to impose my beliefs on anyone here.
But given your other comments, I believe your claims of "wanting to understand" what I believe are little more than a ruse to try to conduct the debate on your terms. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
No, Joyce, you may not be a Christian, but no matter how you cut it you are NOT a Jew either!!!
Or.....if you are a "Jew," it is a "Judaism" of your (and your confreres') own devising!
The Lord, who is the Rock, took His commandments which were carved by the finger of God on stones cut out of the mountain.. The Rock speaks of the Lord and He has taken our minds of stone and made them into minds of flesh .
Ezek. 11:19 “And I will agive them one heart (leb=mind), and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart mind) of stone out of their flesh and give them a cheart of flesh,
Ezek. 36:26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart (leb=mind) and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Here it is from the prophet Jeremiah and look who he's speaking about, Israel, both houses, the Jews and Israel scattered in the nations or the ten tribes from the Assyrian exile who have not yet been restored:
Jer. 31:31 ¶ “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jer. 31:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I btook them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.
Jer. 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart(mind) I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people
Let's look at the word for "new" in Hebrew:
2318. AdDj chadash, khaw-dash´; a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:—renew, repair.
Since the writer of Hebrews is quoting from Jeremiah, he would not be contradicting Jeremiah.
Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
1WHEN I WILL EFFECT bA NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
Heb. 8:9 aNOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb. 8:10 “aFOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
1I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS (minds).
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
The New/newer covenant first and foremost is with Israel, the House of Judah and the House of Israel. . Secondly, the context of the passage in Hebrews is talking about the priesthood. The change that was taking place was that through Yeshua's death we now have access to the throne of God because His priesthood was superior to the priesthood of the Levites where sacrifices were performed year after year but did not result in the new birth.
The new birth or being born again attributes to us Yeshua's righteousness because as Paul says, our old man died. Thus, through Yeshua's righteousness we have a new identity.. This is the new birth in which Yeshua's righteouness is imputed to us, thus rendering us just in the site of of God... This is not a salvation of works but of faith. The obedience to the Torah is comes by chosing to walk in truth and appropriating the truth of God's word. Again , we see this in Ephesians 6 in the armor of God.
Never once is manmade tradition part of God's armor. We have to read the Apostolic Scriptures in context and not cut them off from the original context, therefore the New Covenant or Renewed Covenant or Newer Covenant or improved Covenant, the priesthood of Yeshua is with the House of Judah and the House of israel, not with the Catholic Church..
This is very clear in Scripture and yet the Catholic Church ignores it. Centuries of bad interpretation have come from the fact that very clear connections where the Prophets are quoted are utterly ignored.
The renewing of our mind is through the Scriptures:
Rom. 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may 2dprove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Not through Catholic Church doctrine.
Our weapons of warfare are Scripture:
2Cor. 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but 1divinely powerful bfor the destruction of fortresses.
2Cor. 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
Eph. 6:11 aPut on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the bschemes of the devil.
Eph. 6:12 For our astruggle is not against flesh and blood, but cagainst the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in gthe heavenly places.
Eph. 6:13 Therefore, take up athe full armor of God, so that you will be able to bresist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Eph. 6:14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
Eph. 6:15 and havinga shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
Eph. 6:16 1in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of che evil one.
Eph. 6:17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
The Word of God is how we take our thoughts captive. The Word of God is what guards our minds, the word of God is sword, it's the truth. The Word of God is what we need to walk with Him. .
The Word of God was written down for us by the Prophets and disciples of Yeshua:
Whenever Yeshua quoted Scripture He said "It is written"
"It is written" is used over 200 times in the Bible so God uses the written Word to communicate with us to confirm His Word to us.
Man is supposed to live by ever word that comes from the mouth of God:
Deut. 8:3 “He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.
The reason that God brought Israel into the Wilderness was to teach them how to "hear His voice..
There are no "sacred traditions" in the Bible. There are traditions by the time of Second Temple Judaism, because of the Babylonian exile, but Second Temple Judaism was not a model of the nation that God called out of Egypt. It was a far cry from the nation who had the ark of the covenant...
The climate that Yeshua came into was a environment where the Glory of God manifest in flesh. Yeshua didn't come to set up a bunch of traditions. He critiqued the Pharisees traditions that annuled the Word of God.
The weight of the Biblical evidence is for the spoken and written Word of God as the model for our lives.
The Catholic Church mixed the pagan traditions of Babylon with the Word of God in order to "win over the pagans" and to not identify with Israel.
God will judge the shepherds who have led the sheep astray.
John 10:1-4“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is aa thief and a robber. “But he who enters by the door is aa shepherd of the sheep. “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and bleads them out. “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
The Good Shepherd is Yeshua, and the door is Himself, not the Catholic Church. We are supposed enter into relationship with Him directly, not a Catholic Church. The ekklesia He is building are the living stones, who are His body. We are becoming a holy temple.
Remember I told you before that now the nations, in Yeshua are part of the Commonwealth of Israel, no longer strangers to the covenants.. well let's look and see what that looks like when it's all constructed:
Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of cGod’s household,
Eph. 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Eph. 2:21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
I want to focus your attention on what God's household is being built on:
Eph. 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
and
1Cor. 10:4 and all adrank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Now, Yeshua is the "corner stone".... that would make HIm a "rock" wouldn't it? Funny that this verse is so clear in saying it's built on HIm. The verse in Corinthians that says He was the "spiritual rock" is soooo clear.. but somehow God changed His mind for the Catholic Church to facilitate Peter being the "first pope" even though the word pope is not mentioned in the Bible and there's no indication that Peter himself was the single leader. All of the apostles had roles in the spread of the gospel, but the foundation goes back to the prophets which means it would be prior to the apostles.. It was started with the Prophets of the Torah...so we have a problem here.
If the "church" was supposed to start with Peter and on Peter, how does it work that the prophets were born before Peter, and that the Scripture says that the foundation stone, the chief corner stone, the same rock that will crush the antimessiah kingdom in Daniel is Yeshua!!
The word for rock in the verse that calls Yeshua a spiritual rock in Corinthians is "petra"... How very interesting.
The Catholic Church logic falls apart on every level except that it is self-serving and has preserved their very corrupt power structure on the backs of unsuspecting people for a couple of thousand years..
Joyce
Susanna,
A Jew is a descendant of the House of Judah.. Yeshua was a Jew, so were Matthew,Mark, John, Peter, Paul, etc, etc.. They were Jews who knew their Messiah just like many of them who are today. You know the ones who the holy temple along with the Prophets is being founded on..
I am not trying to do anything but get you to think a little bit instead of just accepting Catholic dogma without questioning it, but if you don't want to or don't have the answers there's no problem.
Since you seemed to want to respond to my questions, I've just continued to write.
By the way, the other Biblical definition of a Jew according to Paul is:
Rom. 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But ahe is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Judah-means Praise from which the name Jew is derived. Contrary to popular belief a Jew is not necessarily one who follows today's existing branches of Hassidic, Orthodox, Conservative or Reformed Judaism.
2453. ∆Ioudai√oß Ioudaios, ee-oo-dah´-yos; from 2448 (in the sense of 2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah: — Jew(-ess), of Judaea.
This is the definition from the Greek word..
So, therefore, there are two ways to be a Jew, one is genealogical, and the the other way is by having a circumcised "mind" which is what happens when we accept Yeshua and become the Temple of the living God with the Torah being placed on our "mind"..
There are many Jews today who fit the description of those who have been circumcised in the flesh, but because they don't know their Jewish Messiah, their minds are not "yet" circumcised. This is happening in our day and thus all of the lies that have been perpetuated by the Catholic Church are being called into question as the physical descendants of Judah begin to explain the Scriptures in light of the hebraic perspective, that of the disciples of Yeshua..
The Catholic Church was did not heed the warnings of Paul who said.
Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that ait is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Now I'm not accusing you of this. I know you are following the teachings of your Church in all sincerity. After studying the Scriptures for many years the contradictions are evident to me and I like sharing these things with Catholics because most of them have never really given any of this much thought. They just accept the RCC's traditions..
Blessings,
Joyce
Susanna,
One more thing, on this verse:
When we look at the Young's Literal translation look how the word paradosis from the Greek is translated:
2Th. 2:15 so, then, brethren, stand ye fast, and hold the deliverances that ye were taught, whether through word, whether through our letter;
Yes, Paul was always traveling around teaching, but he never deviated from the Word of God and we know this based on the incident in Acts where he was accused of teaching people not to obey Torah, and he did the rites of purification.
The word paradosis is also used in negative ways in the Apostolic Scriptures to describe man-made traditions in the following verses, so we need to examine this word more carefully:
Mark 7:13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
Just wanted to respond to your remark, using that verse in 2 Thes. to confirm the Catholic Church teaching on "sacred tradition". It's a bit of a stretch on their part I would have to say, especially since Paul wasn't even supposed to be the founder of the Catholic Church, but Peter was according to them and he didn't say anything about traditions.
Traditions is a pretty general word, used in the Scriptures both negatively and positively so it would be hard to build a Catholic theology out of one little verse. God's word is confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses. There is no evidence of any of the disciples building a theology of Catholicism in the Scriptures, none whatsoever. I'm just not sure this verse is much of a basis to develop the traditions of Catholicsm. That would be a tough one to prove.
Paul is referring to his own teaching which is written down in the Bible and he probably explained in person too, but this is Scripture, not tradition. To my knowledge there is nothing that Paul said that is not included directly in the Scriptures themselves.
This is why I have a problem with the idea of "church fathers". We're not supposed to call anyone "father". Secondly, these guys are not mentioned in the Scriptures and yet the whole Catholic theology falls apart without them, but God didn't say to build a theology on them.
The Temple we are building is constructed on the cornerstone, Yeshua and the prophets and apostles, so no "church fathers" were mentioned. Some of the church fathers became a little negative the Tanach ( which is as much God's Word as the Apostolic Scriptures) .
You never see the Apostles canceling Torah, and yet later on this is what happens, as if God was doubled minded and said one thing before and changed His mind...or as if there is a "different God" of the "Old Testament" than the "God of the New Testament". This doesn't correspond with the God that I know who doesn't change.
The thing that is particularly troubling about this is that in the Kingdom, God says His Torah will go out from Zion, so if He cancelled it why is He restoring it in the Millennial kingdom.
Is. 2:3 And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the 2aw will go forth afrom Zion
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Notice, it's not the Word of the pope, but the Word of the Lord, the Torah ( which is the hebrew word for law in this passage)...so now is God changing His mind again. He gives Torah, cancels Torah, and reinstates it in the Millennium.. That's pretty confusing...
Of course, God's not confused. Yeshua saved us, Torah doesn't save us, but it's tov...good. When we walk in God's instructions, our lives go well because it's kadosh ( holy). It's not a salvation issue, it's a sanctification issue:
Rom. 7:12 aSo then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
If the Law ( Torah) is holy and good why did the Catholic Church annul the 4th commandment, thus annulling the law of God with the traditions ( same word paradosis) of men. Sounds like we have a real problem there...
Joyce
Joyce,
Re:Never once is manmade tradition part of God's armor.
Then why are you adhering to YOUR man made tradition?
Re;We have to read the Apostolic Scriptures in context...
Whose context??? Yours? And by what authority are you presuming to define "context?" Since Scripture does not interpret itself, it cannot be from Scripture.
Re:There are no "sacred traditions" in the Bible. There are traditions by the time of Second Temple Judaism, because of the Babylonian exile, but Second Temple Judaism was not a model of the nation that God called out of Egypt. It was a far cry from the nation who had the ark of the covenant...
You are just plain mistaken here.
It was the oral tradition that enabled Esdras to preserve and restore the Torah after the return of the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity. Scribes were - and still are - specially trained to memorize and recite the Torah.
One bone of contention over the rejection of the Septuagint around 90 A.D. was that Esdras "closed the canon."
There is no evidence that Esdras closed the canon, or that if he did, he was authorized to do so.
Re:The Catholic Church logic falls apart on every level except that it is self-serving and has preserved their very corrupt power structure on the backs of unsuspecting people for a couple of thousand years..
And what is your proof? LOL Your "Catholic Catechism" entitled THE TWO BABYLONS??? Jack Chick, perhaps and his "ALBERTO" comics? Or maybe it was Professional anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner's book ROMAN CATHOLICISM???
The renewing of our mind is through the Scriptures:
Rom. 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may 2dprove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
I read that passage very carefully and it does NOT clearly say that the renewing of our mind is even "through the Scriptures" - nevermind "the Scriptures alone."
It sounds to me like you are ADDING TO the Word of God.
Re: your earlier comment:
Matt. 15:6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
You can't answer this because you know as well as I do that the Catholic Church changed Shabbat at the Council of Nicea, as well as Passover, added in Christmas which had nothing to do with Yeshua's birth, etc.
..and your equally erroneous "followup"......
If the Law ( Torah) is holy and good why did the Catholic Church annul the 4th commandment, thus annulling the law of God with the traditions ( same word paradosis) of men. Sounds like we have a real problem there...
This is a professional anti-Catholic favorite and I most certainly CAN answer this!
Actually, the complete passage from the Gospel reads:
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 Matt 15:3-6
In this passage Jesus was not condemning all traditions. It was a condemnation of the Pharisees who made a pretended dedication of their goods to the Temple so they could avoid using them to support their aged parents. By doing this, they dodged the Commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother." Exodus 20:12
So if we want to talk about context, Joyce......
So now back to my question......even though you are now denying that you are a Christian in order to avoid answering it:
Where in the Bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the BIBLE ONLY is to be the Christian RULE OF FAITH???
For that matter, where in the Bible does it CLEARLY STATE that the BIBLE ONLY is to be the Jewish equivalent of a "rule of faith"???
Joyce said . . .
"The Catholic Church logic falls apart on every level except that it is self-serving and has preserved their very corrupt power structure on the backs of unsuspecting people for a couple of thousand years."
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. . . and "on the backs" of that completely UNRBOKEN line of Popes from Peter all the way up through our present Benedict???
WOW, that's some miraculous feat those Catholics have managed to pull off!!! LOL
Joyce:
Please STOP (cease and desist!) regurgitating every anti-Catholic piece of PROPAGANDA that you can possibly "google" -- and passing it off as the gospel truth to "unsuspecting people" on this blog!!!
You are BREAKING God's commandment:
"Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Susanna,
Let's look at what you said here:
"In this passage Jesus was not condemning all traditions. It was a condemnation of the Pharisees who made a pretended dedication of their goods to the Temple so they could avoid using them to support their aged parents. By doing this, they dodged the Commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother." Exodus 20:12
So if we want to talk about context, Joyce.....".
The specific context was about not honoring the parents because they were giving korban, agreed. The general principal is exactly the same. Catholics break the commandment of God for the sake of their Church tradition... I don't think that's too difficult to understand, unless you don't understand what God's 4th commandment says. The Catholic Church makes a big deal about going to the Mass every Sunday and breaks God's commandment to Honor the Shabbat..
By the way, this isn't the only time that the Pharisees were rebuked by Yeshua for putting tradition above God's Word.
I don't say I'm not a Christian to not answer you. I say I'm not a Christian because I'm a Jew, quite simply. You are repeating your question that I answered several blogs ago, so I'll turn the question back to you. Where does the Bible say that 50% of practice should be Catholic and the other 50% Scripture.
You are trying to find a specific text that words the response to your question, but there are hundreds of texts that say this for those who have ears to listen. Why don't you show me the specific texts that give the Catholic Church the authority to change the Shabbat.. If you could even come close to showing me where God permits men to change HIS ETERNAL COMMANDMENTS, I would find that interesting, but as it stands the Catholic Church acknowledges that it has changed the Shabbat.
The Catholic Church changed the feasts of the Eternal because it is more important than the God of creation that made the heavens and the earth and rested on the seventh day, than Yeshua that died as the Passover lamb, that poured out His Spirit on Shavuot, but these dates probably aren't very important just because God ordained them...after all, who is God compared to Constantine.. WRONG! God says HE will meet with us during these appointments, so that makes them very important..
The venerable day of the sun, the winter solstice and the vernal eqiunox are right up there with the labyrinth.
Believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, Yeshua are not supposed to serve the gods that the nations serve. That's the meaning of being a "called-out assembly" . We've been called out of Babylon.
Not all of what the Jews brought from Babylon was good.. Yeshua would not have been rebuking them for their man made traditions if it was so wonderful.. Maybe you think we should put the traditions of some of the Pharisees over Yeshua's word too.. ? Hmmm. Where do you think the Pharisees got all of their man-made traditions from? It wasn't from Moses..you can be sure of that because Yeshua told them to listen to Moses and if they believed Moses they would believe Him. No, I think you're putting Jewish tradition above the Word of God, just as you put Catholic tradition above the Word of God..
I happen to like some things from Jewish tradition, but only as tradition. I don't put them on par with the Word of God. There is a difference between customs that are handed down and the Word of God.. huge difference.
Yeshua rebuked the Pharisees for putting their words above His. This is exactly the same thing that the Catholic Church has done for centuries..
Actually it's not traditions that turn people to God, it's repentance and humble dependance on Him. Traditions usually give a feeling of religiosity. I remember this feeling very strongly when I attended Catholic Church as a young girl.. It's the thing I still would feel today if I walked into a cathedral.
My relationship with God is not based on traditions or popes or rituals, sit, stand, genuflect, make the sign of the cross, tap my chest religiously.. My relationship with Him is based on His Word. It's not through a pope, a priest, an intermediary. He's my Abba Father, and I speak to Him as my loving Father. He's my savior, my redeemer, my hope, my ROCK, my fortress, my ever-present help in times of need.
From your conversation, I don't know what your relationship with Him is like because I've heard a lot of Catholic jargon, but that's religion...
I'm still talking relationship and you are talking religion. Religion is what we do in the absence of relationship. Relationship is based on hearing..the voice of God..Religion is based on following men's rules and traditions. Somehow I'm not sure that you understand what I'm talking about because you keep thinking I'm somehow attacking you.
I don't like the grotesque distortion that the Catholic Church has made of God's Word and the fact that it has led the sheep astray. I've seen it with my eyes. I grew up watching it. I thank God that in spite of this He kept me and I didn't turn against Him because frankly what I saw of Catholicism would have been enough to do it. It's only by grace that He pulled me out of that and brought me to Himself.
Joyce
To the anonymous person that thinks i've "googled" something...just want to say no. I'm speaking from my experience growing up in Catholicism, knowing Catholics my whole life and then reading the Bible for many years now.
I don't need Google to talk about any of this. I'm speaking from the Bible and from my personal first hand experience of the Catholic Church..
If what I'm saying is disturbing to you don't read my posts if it's that hard. I don't mean it to be. I love the Lord with all my heart and it's because I do that I cannot stand what the Catholic Church stands for. To me, it doesn't represent Him as I have come to know HIm through His Word.
Instead of getting upset with me... read His Word and see if you think the Catholic Church is accurately reflecting the Scriptures, if you read with your mind opened.
It's not an accident that we had a Reformation. It happened because godly men saw that the Scriptures were being misrepresented. What I'm saying is not completely new. I'm just saying it form a more hebraic perspective and thus going back even a little further than the Reformers did. I do acknowledge we owe them a debt of gratitude for what they accomplished... many whose blood was shed as they stood for God's Word.
Gotta run...
Joyce
To Joyce (3:31 PM):
Many of the anti-Catholic LINKS, you have provided on many previous posts (and challenged by Susanna), are most definitely PROPAGANDA. Yet, you post them like they were the truth to unsuspecting people on this blog.
The next question (from many on this blog -- not just Catholics) is WHY and for what PURPOSE???
No one, who has grown up in the Catholic Church, could possibly be so IGNORANT (on so many levels)about the TRUE teachings of the Catholic faith.
But, hey Joyce -- keep right on "spinning" and revealing your true colors along the way.
Joyce,
Re:Why don't you show me the specific texts that give the Catholic Church the authority to change the Shabbat.. If you could even come close to showing me where God permits men to change HIS ETERNAL COMMANDMENTS, I would find that interesting, but as it stands the Catholic Church acknowledges that it has changed the Shabbat.
_____________________________
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Colossians 2:16-17
"Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight" (Acts 20:7).
It's pretty clear at this point that you are not familiar with Judaism or Catholicism Joyce. Why not come clean and say you were raised as an atheist, agnostic, Buddhist or some other religious belief system. If you were raised as a Protestant, you wouldn't have looked for another branch of Christianity. Your ramblings may convince messianics that you are some sort of scholar, but that's a group that is pretty easily fooled anyway.
Oh you poor thing Joyce. No wonder you are so confused. I can't think of a single Jewish family that would deliberately raise their child outside of their Jewish faith, whether Protestant or Catholic without converting themselves, at which point they would no longer be Jewish. I hope you will be kind to them, knowing that they were hopelessly mixed up themselves.
You wrote:
"I didn't say I was a "Christian" so you keep repeating "Christian rule of faith" ... I don't believe there is a "Christian rule of faith". You are starting off with a wrong premise. I am a Jew, and as such a literal descendant of Abraham, so I believe the promises of God to Abraham are true, have not been canceled and neither has Torah. "
to the anonymous poster,
You actually show your lack of knowledge on this subject, because many families did because of persecution.
Joyce
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Colossians 2:16-17 "
This verse does not mean that Shabbat was cancelled.
Read carefully.
Joyce
Susanna,
Collecting money was not permitted on Shabbat:
Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made." 1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Joyce
Sorry, I couldn't guess that when you were born in the '50s there was persecution of Jews somewhere in the world where they could escape by converting to Catholicism. Obviously you weren't born in the US because no such persecution took place here. Just where did that persecution of Jews take place that led your family to convert to Catholicism? Can you tell us more about how that conversion took place? Always good to know more about history.
This verse does not prove Shabbat was cancelled:
"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight" (Acts 20:7).
It says they broke bread together and Paul was leaving.
Here are verses talking about the disciples on Shabbat:
Acts 13:44 ¶ The next aSabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of 1the Lord.
Acts 15:21 “For aMoses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since 1he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Acts 16:13 And on athe Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled.
Acts 18:4 And he was reasoning ain the synagogue every bSabbath and trying to persuade cJews and Greeks.
Sabbath is mentioned well over 100 time in the Bible, it's the 4th Commandment. Yeshua went to the synaogoge on Shabbat ( and observed the other mo'ed)
He is Lord of the Shabbat, so I don't know how Sunday is the "Lord's Day". The Lord's day in Revelations is the Day of the Lord.
Shabbat is for the nations
Is. 56:6 “Also the aforeigners who join themselves to the LORD,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be His servants, every one who bkeeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
Shabbat is eternal:
Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to 1celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’
perpetual is olam, which means forever.
Yeshua, in talking about the Tribulation says this:
Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
And in the millennium kingdom there will be Shabbat:
Is. 66:23 “And it shall be from anew moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All 1mankind will come to bbow down before Me,” says the LORD.
I'm well aware of the weak arguments used on this subject, but the truth is that the Catholic Church admits changing it. They believe they have the authority to change what God said was "forever".
Joyce
Susanna,
What's worse about the Catholic Church changing it was their motives, which was to "not identify with those Jews". .Same reason they changed the date of Passover and made "Easter" ( Ishtar) on another day.
It would be a lot of easier if you just look at what Constantine said when he changed the dates....He was quite clear about the reasons. If you deny that, then you are denying the history of the Catholic Church because that is the real history..
All of the excuses after the fact about the Resurrection are nonsense. The Catholic Church plainly and simply didn't want to be identified with the Jews. It's the same spirit that was behind the desecration of the Temple in the time of the Maccabees, where Jews were not allowed to circumcise their sons. It's been going on for centuries. HaSatan has tried to destroy Israel, hid it cover it up, persecute it. From the time of the babies drowned in the Nile to Queen Esther, to Herod, to the pograms, the Inquisition, the Shoah, to the anti-zionism today ( Islamic) HaSatan's plan has been to try to destroy the seed of Abraham.
God's redemption plan is all about Israel. If we don't see it we won't understand what's going on in the last days.
This is why I have brought up verses that are completely ignored in the RCC like this:
I'll post the whole chapter 37 and I'd be interested to know how you explain it, or how the Catholic Church explains it. If you know the history of the division of the kingdom and you know that Northern tribes ( the house of Israel, Joseph/ Ephraim in the second half of chap. did not come back) then you know that God will do something to accomplish this. If we ignore these prophetic passages then we will not fully grasp what God is saying in the Scriptures. God's redemption plan is all about Israel.. Either you attach yourself to Israel or stay with the Catholic Church and see where that's going to get you.
I believe there are individual Catholics that will see the deception and come out in the Last Days.. I hope you are one of them for your sake.
Ezek. 37:1 ¶ The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out 1by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.
Ezek. 37:2 He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
Ezek. 37:3 He said to me, “Son of man, acan these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord 1GOD, bYou know.”
Ezek. 37:4 Again He said to me, “aProphesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, bhear the word of the LORD.’
Ezek. 37:5 “Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause 1abreath to enter you that you may come to life.
Ezek. 37:6 ‘I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will aknow that I am the LORD.’”
Ezek. 37:7 ¶ So I prophesied aas I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
Ezek. 37:8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
Ezek. 37:9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they bcome to life.”’”
Ezek. 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Ezek. 37:11 ¶ Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are 1completely cut off.’
Ezek. 37:12 “Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will open your graves and acause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
Ezek. 37:13 “Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
Ezek. 37:14 “I will aput My 1Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD.’”
Ezek. 37:15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again to me saying,
Ezek. 37:16 “And you, son of man, take for yourself aone stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’
Ezek. 37:17 “Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.
Ezek. 37:18 “When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us awhat you mean by these?’
Ezek. 37:19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’
Ezek. 37:20 “The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
Ezek. 37:21 “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will atake the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek. 37:22 and I will make them aone nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and bone king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
Ezek. 37:23 “They will ano longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but bI will deliver them from all their 1dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.
Ezek. 37:24 ¶ “My servant aDavid will be king over them, and they will all have bone shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.
Ezek. 37:25 “They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and aDavid My servant will be their prince forever.
Ezek. 37:26 “I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My dsanctuary in their midst forever.
Ezek. 37:27 “My dwelling place also will be with them; and bI will be their God, and they will be My people.
Ezek. 37:28 “And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”
Susanna,
I would be very, very interested to see what you think of this passage in Ezekiel which is clearly a prophetic passage.
Joyce
Joyce, I understand that you are embarrassed by what your parents did to you, forcing you to be raised a Catholic, taking you away from your roots. It's understandable. Not everyone has good parents who do the best for their children. I now see why you have become a messianic. You don't want to turn your back on your parents even though they did you wrong and yet you still want to stay close to what you hope are really your roots. I can see that you are embarrassed by your family life and don't really want to talk about your foolish parents. It must be very difficult for you to be caught between two worlds. You have my sympathy.
No, I'm not at all embarrassed by my parents. On the contrary. I understand that their experiences were not mine and anything they did was out of the very best motives. I had wonderful parents..
My parents also realized Catholicism was a big mistake and left too.
I'm not at all caught between two worlds. I am very grateful that the Lord has been leading me my whole life.. Have no regrets because everything happens for a reason. I wouldn't understand what I do about both Catholicism and Judaism had it not been for my experiences..
I don't think you really understand. If you read all of my posts you would understand a little better.
Some people leave Catholicism and become Jews because they are so disgusted by the Catholic Church. It's a shame that those people don't know their Messiah the way that they could.. So there are all kinds of experiences out there... what can we say? Those people could be very conflicted because they are denying Yeshua in the rejection of the Catholic Church. Too bad they can't separate Catholicism from the faith of Yeshua.
The Bible says :
Rom. 8:28 And we know that 1God causes aall things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are bcalled according to His purpose.
Even Paul, who was a persecutor of Jewish believers in Yeshua knew his experience was used by God..
Hey, thanks for your heartfelt concern though...
Joyce
Ah Joyce, deny all you want, but the psychology of it all is very clear. Somehow your parents left their ancestral faith of Judaism to become Catholics, although they told you it was because of persecution, where there was none. Because of the way the Jewish community is set up, it is very hard to leave it. One has to turn their back not only on the religion, but on all of the family members. In the past some Jews have done this for business reasons, but then they would become Protestants with wealth connections such as Presbyterians or Episcopaliens, never Catholics as that is a harder community to enter, particularly during the times when you were young.
It is noble of you to defend your parents, though it is clear that you reject what they tried to do, how they messed up your tender young years, forcing you into a belief system that you now viciously reject with distortions of what Catholics truly believe. And yet you retained part of what Catholicism taught you. You couldn't go back to your roots. You were truly caught in the middle and forced to accept some compromise between the two distinct belief systems.
That must have narrowed your choice of mates as the messianic community is much smaller than the Catholic or Jewish ones. Again, my sympathy for your need to compromise.
Look deep into your heart. Ask God to help you to come to peace with what has become of your life. It is obvious that you are still angry at your parents, the Catholic church and the Jewish community as you feel the need to attack all of them as violently as you do. Well, maybe you still don't recognize the anger you feel toward your parents, but we can see it.
God will help you accept the Messianic Jewish community with all of your heart when you can openly identify with it. Right now you still avoid your full identification with that community, never being able to proudly admit membership in any part of it. You have intellectually justified it to yourself, but emotionally you are uncommitted.
How very sad to be in such a continuous state of anger. God wouldn't want that for you. He would say Grow Where You Are Planted. Do not keep rushing off into other fields hoping to find solice.
You have taken lack of trust in your parents for what they did to you and cannot truly trust God for what he allowed to be done to you. That is very clear. How sad.
I will keep praying for you and will always be here to give you advice on how to better your life. It is clear that you need that kind of help.
Hi anonymous,
I hope you're not a psychologist, because you wouldn't make a very good one.. but I appreciate your efforts. Wish you really knew me.
My opinions are based on Scripture, not on emotion. I'm very happy about my journey, but if you don't know Yeshua you won't understand this..
In Yeshua, I am a new creation and as such can only be very happy about that. If you placed your faith in Yeshua's atoning work for your sins, I would recommend that you do. Then you will not the shalom that I have, the shalom that surpasses all understanding and guards our hearts and minds in Yeshua the Messiah.
Knowing who I am in Yeshua, allows me to hear some of the remarks I hear on this blog and having them roll off my shoulder and pray for the those who offend me.
Knowing who I am in Yeshua, allows me to forgive because I have been forgiven, so I don't have bitterness and resentment. When Yeshua paid for my sins on the tree, He paid for all the sins that others committed against me. That's real freedom.
If you don't have that freedom in your life today, I recommend that in the quietness of your home you cry out to Him and ask His forgiveness for all of the sins you have committed, and then forgive all of those who have offended you.. As you turn to Him in repentance He will give you and amazing peace which you may have never experienced in your life.
This is not about religion, this is about having a relationship with the Holy One of Israel. When you know this, you will understand God's love in a way you never have before, and you will find it difficult to hate. He binds up the broken-hearted and opens the eyes of the blind and sets the prisoners free.
My gripe with the Catholic Church is that they had the truth but distorted it and used it to advance their own power and interests.. They know that Yeshua is the Messiah, but they divorced Him from His context as the Jewish Messiah who came to Israel. That's okay because God works in spite of them...
As for Judaism...I don't hate it at all. Jews are have a veil concerning Messiah. Remember when Moses descended from Mt. Sinai and had to veil his face. Israel could not look at him because he had been in face to face relationship with God. Their is a veil today, on their eyes which God is gradually removing.. that's why so many know Yeshua.
God said there would be a partial hardening until the fulness of the nations comes in, thus All Israel will be saved. The hardening that Jews have against their Messiah is not a secret to God. His plans are on schedule and He will deal with them. He will renew His covenant with them, in the same way that He cut the covenant with Abraham and delivered the Children of Israel from Egypt by His strong right arm. I don't have any hatred at Judaism or Jews, or Catholics..
In Yeshua, hate is not an option, but you would have to be in Him to know this. Some on the blog know what I mean because they are walking in a relationship with Him...
If you don't I'll continue to pray for you... You have probably been on the blog for a long time hearing the gospel either directly or indirectly. Yeshua is knocking on the door of your heart . If you let Him in He will come and sup with you..
Remember, there is a spiritual battle for your mind. HaSatan doesn't want you in the kingdom. The enemy comes to rob, steal and destroy, but Yeshua came to give life and to give it abundantly.
In Yeshua's love,
Joyce
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce
It is so obvious that you cover up your real feelings with so much talk. You talk so much so that you don't have to listen to your heart. It's like those people who must have loud music on all of the time, loud, hard, pounding music that never lets them hear the soft gentle stirrings of their heart, never lets them hear God talking to them.
Soften your heart. Don't be continuously angry at your parents and the Jewish world that let you down and who you never came to know. They couldn't reach you if your parents took you away from that world at such a young and tender age.
Catholics couldn't know how much you were hurting because your family kept your Jewish roots secret (as you said because of persecution) although I think it was something else. How sad that you felt no place to turn, and now you lash out against all of the people who weren't there to help you sort out all of the emotions you must have been keeping hidden.
How sad that you never knew aunts, uncles, cousins, or any Jewish relatives in your young years, a community that has nurtured many. How different it might have been if you had been given love in a family community. I hope that if such a family existed that you have forgiven them for turning their backs on you and your parents.
I can only hope that your anger and bitterness hasn't aged you prematurely. Pray today for healing. God can give it to you.
Dorothy,
No, you're wrong. Unless you are born again, you won't understand..
In my own strength, prior to knowing Yeshua, I wouldn't have cared if you took a long walk off a short cliff... but because of what Yeshua has done in my life, I am actually praying for a total stranger.
Somehow Abba has put you on my heart to pray for. I know you sound hard as a rock, but the Lord Himself is able to reach you, so I will leave you in His able hands..
In Yeshua's love,
Joyce
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce,
Do you believe only Dorothy cares about you. How sad. Many of us do and worry about you. We see the signs of your troubled life and how you have hardened your heart toward others, hiding behind a wall that you consider intellectual protection. You reach out a book, but never a hand, aggressively slapping back a hand that reaches out to you.
You have been posting a long time. All of the signs are there.
Dorothy,
It's okay. You can admit that you're still on the blog. Everyone knows your style and accepts you the way you are...
Still praying for you,
Joyce
Joyce, Joyce, Joyce...
This was an attempt by several of us to do an intervention to help you as you are in such denial. YOu know in your heart that everything I've written is true. You're freezing away your emotions is not healthy. You show daily that you are unhappy. You need to ask God to soften your heart so that you aren't so driven. You show you aren't at peace with God no matter how often you use the words.
We are praying for you.
Dorothy,
I'm going to say it to you as plainly as I can.
If you converted to Judaism at one time in your life, you might be threatened by someone like me.. Why? Because I really have Jewish blood and I'm saying I believe in Yeshua. You went through a rabbinic conversion and spent your entire life trying to live in an identity that probably wasn't even your own.
You have clung to rabbinic teachings and now you're kind of stuck. I want to tell you something. You are not really stuck. You can know God.
If you turn to Yeshua, He will give you a new identity and the Dorothy that bites everyone's head off will be transformed into the woman God created you to be, when He made you in His image. He can set you free totally to serve Him, and open your eyes to His Word.
Yeshua is the Messiah, and Jews are partially blind until God removes the veil, but you weren't always Jewish. You have opted for blindness.
As much as I intensely dislike the Catholic Church and the Catholic doctrine, I'm happy that I wasn't raised in Judaism because God used all of my experiences to lead me to Yeshua. As a Catholic, I did not know Yeshua, but I was dissatisfied enough to search. At the same time, because I was exposed to Judaism too, I began to see how Catholicism had transformed Yeshua from a 1st century Jew into something He was not.
You have the benefit of understanding the Jewish world, but you don't know the Messiah, which is a shame. You can know Yeshua and be a gentile believer in Yeshua who is circumcised in your mind, thus making you spiritually speaking a real Jew, not the kind of Jew you are now, which is a wannabe Jew.
Going through Jewish rituals will not renew your mind. Think about what I'm saying.. Going through Jewish rituals will give you the right to join the Jewish community, but won't change your mind. In order to have Torah written on your mind, you need Yeshua, the living Torah.
There are gentile believers on this blog, who are more Jew than you are because they have believed in Yeshua.
Read this verse in Hebrews carefully. I suspect like many who were Catholics, you never really knew Yeshua. Maybe you were baptized as a baby, but could understand who He was through all the Catholic ritual. Don't worry, many of us couldn't.
God had to do a work in me, and I got mad at believers too, just like you do because HaSatan did not want me to enter into Yeshua's rest (Shabbat).
Heb. 3:5 Now aMoses was faithful in all His house as a servant, cor a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
Heb. 3:6 but Christ was faithful as aa Son over His house — whose house we are, cif we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb. 3:7 ¶ Therefore, just as athe Holy Spirit says,
“bTODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb. 3:8 aDO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS 1WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb. 3:9 aWHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
Heb. 3:10 “aHEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
Heb. 3:11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”
Heb. 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
The Israelites who came out of Egypt DID NOT ENTER INTO GOD'S REST. They did not believe!! Shabbat is all about entering into His Rest. He is the bread of life. Without Him, you will never have rest. When He died, He said "it is finished", but I have news for you, the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. God didn't just do this as an afterthought. God is not limited by time, nor by our imaginations, thankfully. God created time, and He gave us Shabbat to speak of Yeshua.
It's not too late for you to believe Dorothy. I don't care why you converted, whether it was for marriage or God only knows why, but you can still love Jews and know your Messiah.
If you have read my posts carefully, I've explained a lot of how faith in Yeshua was transformed into a "non-Jewish" faith, but it didn't start out that way.
You are probably not a youngster, but as long as you are breathing...it's not too late to trust in Yeshua's payment for your sins. He is faithful to forgive you. The moment you stop breathing it is too late.. Sorry to be blunt, but if no one else wants to tell you this, I will.
It was too late for the generation in the Wilderness to enter into God's rest, but you can make a choice today.. Don't let pride or stubbornness get in the way.. Don't let HaSatan get in the way. He has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving so that they cannot see the light of the gospel.
If the gospel is so offensive to you, you might ask the question why.. No, I'm okay Dorothy because I humbled myself and gave my life to Yeshua and that's a decision I will never, ever regret. Isn't it about time for you to do the same before it's too late. If you don't, it won't be for lack of information...it will be a choice you have freely made, but I pray that will not be your choice.
The writer of Hebrews, a diaspora Jew, is very clear about this:
Heb. 4:1 ¶ Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have aome short of it.
Heb. 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but athe word 1they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Heb. 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“aAS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished bfrom the foundation of the world.
Heb. 4:4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”;
Heb. 4:5 and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.”
By the way, Dorothy, once you do put your faith in Yeshua's atonement for sin, God will use all of your experiences, even the mistakes for His glory. It is for this reason in my life, I never have regrets. God redeems all of it
In Yeshua's love,
Joyce
Joyce, you know what I've written is true. We've discussed your situation and only after much thought and prayer did we decide to try to help you overcome the emotional barriers you seem to have in your life. They say the hardest thing is to know oneself, and it is obvious that you do not know yourself, that you run and run away from yourself, covering your feelings with a huge barrier of words. How sad you appear to us. It is obvious that you are in denial. Your life is circumscribed by the religion you've been forced to accept to bring the pieces together in a way that makes sense. You believe that if you can get others to make sense of your adopted religion that it will eventually make sense to you. It is clear that you will keep trying until someone here agrees with your world. You are driven, under some kind of mental pressure to find acceptance for your world.
Ok Joyce. I want to convert to the messianic belief system. Help me do that.
Dorothy,
You don't need my help to accept Yeshua. You need God's help. All you have to do is turn to Him, and ask..
Rev. 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
You have never needed me.. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you this....
Heb. 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of adisobedience,
Heb. 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just aas has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
Today, Dorothy, if you hear His voice, not mine, don't harden your heart..
Blessings in Yeshua,
Joyce
Joyce, I'll be away for a few days. You totally misunderstood. I'm Christian, but I need lessons in Judaism so that becoming a messianic believer makes sense. Will you teach me about Judaism? If I go to a rabbi it will only confuse me more.
Dorothy,
I understand why you don't want to admit it's you.. and you don't have to.. That's okay.
Praying for you.. hope wherever your going that things will go well.. I'll be praying.
Joyce
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This is all really new to us and also this report really opened up our face.Thank you for expressing here your current perception.
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