Highly informed and respected financial / global governance expert Joan Veon is my highly anticipated guest on MY PERSPECTIVE internet radio program tonight, live at 5 p.m Paciific time, 6:00 p.m. Mountain Time, 7:00 p.m. Central time and 8:00 p.m. Eastern time. Joan says de facto, if not de jure, global government is coming -- it is here! Please join us both on the air and in the internet chatroom at http://www.themicroeffect.com/ tonight. I also anticipate we will be discussing the new Benjamin Creme / "Maitreya" developments as in my December 13, 2008 article. Please join us and stay tuned!
Constance
Monday, December 15, 2008
ReplyDeleteDoomsday: U.S. report warns of 'strategic shock' leading to massive unrest
"Widespread civil violence inside the United States would force the defense establishment to reorient priorities in extremis to defend basic domestic order and human security," the report, authored by [Ret.] Lt. Col. Nathan Freir, said.
http://tinyurl.com/5fgx4n
Not that its news to many here but this seems to more evidence that our "leaders" are expecting something.
JD
Known Unknowns: Unconventional "Strategic Shocks" in Defense Strategy Development
ReplyDeleteThis is the 51 page report which the above article was written about. I haven't read it yet but figured since I found the initial source I would post it.
http://tinyurl.com/6ktbo9
JD
I am very much looking forward to hearing Joan Veon and Constance discuss global governance as well as the recent Benjamin Creme/Matreya developments on 'My Perspective' later today. Thank you Constance for contacting Joan and both of you for taking time out of your busy schedules to share your combined research with us. -Rudi
ReplyDelete**Joan Veon website:
http://www.womensgroup.org/
*******************************
**Listing of Joan Veon articles on News With Views:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Veon/joanA.htm
Constance,
ReplyDeleteGlad you are having Joan. I've been following her for some time and she is one sharp lady. Don't know if I'll be able to tune in but I'm sure it will be a good program.
Joyce
Wish it were a 2 or 3 hr. broadcast,however I'm thankful it will be on for at least 1 hour...
ReplyDeleteVery much looking forward to it.
HK
Hi Rudi,
ReplyDeleteActually Joan contacted me -- we talk from time to time -- and I took advantage of the conversation to schedule a radio broadcast!
Constance
I must admit, that aside from seeing a video on google I was largely unfamiliar with Joan's work. Today I have spent a good bit of time getting aquainted with it and I must say she is one sharp lady. I have yet to subscribe to micro effect, but this interview interests me. It makes me realize that I really need to subscribe.
ReplyDeleteJD
Maitreya = Green Dragon?
ReplyDeleteThis morning I decided to check out some astronomical info, current solar events, etc. hoping to get a heads up just in case any new or old “bright” star was on or near the horizon.
Many folks realize that the moon is significantly closer to us this month than it has been in years, or will be again until at least 2016. But, the fact is, there’s really quite a lot going on astronomically lately. I didn't find any new “bright stars” on our immediate horizon, but the recent auroras have been really impressive.
Anyone who has seen auroras knows they shimmer and undulate and often come in a rainbow of colors. Spaceweather.com has a great photo gallery of December 2008 Auroras. This month the auroras have all been a very brilliant green. One photo caught my eye in particular because it looked so much like an enormous green dragon. (But that’s just my own imagination, probably.) See the photo labeled:
Voldemar,
Novy Urengoy, YANAO, Russia
Dec. 6, 2008
at
http://www.spaceweather.com/aurora/gallery_01dec08.htm?PHPSESSID=
nn60q6m9b1guub854liaat8513
I’m always curious about such observable “phenomena”, so I did a quick search on “green dragon”.
I know very little about the website called “Cephas Files”, so don’t get too fired up about what could be wrong with that particular group or their ministry. I’m merely posting a link to an article from that site which discusses the Green Dragon. The relevant discussion starts out with an interpretation of the Marine Corps Warfighting Laboratory symbol, which I found to be very interesting, as it depicts a big green dragon that appears to be devouring the Twin Towers. The MCWL Dragon symbol can also seen at:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usmc/mcwl.htm
But the Cephas article goes on to cite a book by a Frederick Goodman who quoted some occult texts about the danger of even looking at the Green Dragon. I found these quotes to be especially relevant to the discussion regarding Maitreya allegedly appearing on our television sets in the very near future.
I’ve cut and pasted the relevant text to save readers some time. These are the next two paragraphs immediately following the photo of and discussion about the Marine Corps WFL symbol….
“With this concept in mind, let us look at a particularly powerful traditional Satanic image, the Basilisk Serpent. This coiled serpent is colored a bright green, the same green as this Marine Corps dragon. He is crowned and is pictured as devouring a human being! The explanation of this shocking magic symbol is given by Frederick Goodman in his book quoted above, Magic Symbols. Listen:
"In the occult tradition, the basilisk is said to have the power to destroy all upon whom it looks, because of the power of its eyes. This is perhaps one reason why the basilisk, or the crowned serpent, has been adopted as a magical symbol of the wisdom ... If we take our study of this particular basilisk even further, we see that it is portrayed as devouring a human being. Is this merely a picture of the killer instinct of the basilisk or is there some deeper magical meaning in the image? In fact, since the basilisk is a magical symbol of wisdom, it is sometimes portrayed as swallowing a human being in order to symbolize the process of initiation. When a man has so prepared himself as to achieve insight into the nature of the spiritual realm, then he is said to be an initiate. A true initiate is one who has been given, or who has earned, such wisdom as permits him to look on such a brilliant influx of spiritual light ... without damaging his vision." [Ibid., p. 7-9]
End quotes.
Consider the “warning” from occultists about the "Dragon" in light of what we’ve been warned about “Maitraya” from our anonymous "friend" on the previous thread? Anon said the exact same thing about Maitreya as occultists are saying about the Dragon, i.e. don’t search for info on him, don’t look at him, don’t even speak his name. Only an initiate, aka an “insider” who has been adequately “prepared” can look on such a beast with no spiritual harm to themselves.
If that isn’t a bunch of fear mongering B.S., I don’t know what is! I understand no human should blaspheme heavenly angels, but to reveal the nature of the beast has been the major work of this website. (My opinion, of course.) And obviously Constance and Joan aren't afraid to speak this name or discuss the nature of the beast. For that I say Amen!
And if anyone thinks I’ve not shown enough “loving kindness” towards anyone else who posts here, please open the links provided near the end of the previous Maitraya discussion thread. That You Tube video of the Dali Lama’s comments about the meaning of Maitreya’s name are most enlightening. Some people just have no idea what “love” really means.
Here's the link to that article on Cephas, I haven't spent enough time there to discern the true nature of that site, but the Green Dragon article was/is most informative.
http://www.cephasministry.com/nwo_terror_in_the_land_of_the_living.html
I forgot to mention, the globalsecurity webpage depicts the new logo. Obvious reasons for the change.
ReplyDeleteThank You and God Bless You Constance and Joan for a most informative and unexpectedly extended radio show.
ReplyDelete~K~
NANO VIDEO???
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have a link to the nano-technolgy video that Constance referenced on tonight's radio show, please?
~K~
What an action-packed 2 hours of outstanding information provided to us this evening by both Joan Veon and Constance!
ReplyDeleteI was especially impressed with Joan's comments about the Federal Reserve (which isn't "federal" and "there is no reserve") - how all the banks have "interlocking boards of directors" - and how even small town independent banks and credit unions may not be "safe" places to keep our money at some point in the future.
She advises everyone to get out of debt now.
Joan has videos and newsletters for sale; so, for those who didn't write it down, here's her phone phone number: (301) 371-0541.
OldManoftheski,
ReplyDeletePlease check out my new blog post. It pertains to what you are talking about and connects the dots between who is possibly crashing the global markets and Maitreya.
It probably won't make sense unless you've read the book The Armageddon Conspiracy. I don't recommend anyone read it, frankly, because I am a thinned skin weenie. I also think it's way too deceptive for most Christians-weenies or not-it's cunning in the way it twists the truth. That being said, you can learn a lot from their website. That's where I discovered the Mithra connection. Mithra=Maitreya.
The Illuminati on that sight, take credit for the French and American Revolution. When I read JD's comment at the top of this thread it really all makes sense- who is behind this and what they believe.
http://www.the-obama-nation.blogspot.com/
A few comments on the economy. I didn't hear Joan's comments unfortunately. US lowered interest rates to 0. I would also like to call your attention something that's been going on in US as well as elsewhere, which is the use of Sharia law banking or Islamic banking:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/16/uncle-shariah/
Actually 0 interest rate works well...then they can comply with sharia law and not charge interest..I'm half joking here. By allowing sharia law banking in our system we are "submitting to Islam" whether anyone sees it that way or not..
With the Madoff debacle and the rest of the banking crisis people are just worried about their own investments and are not paying much attention to what's going on.
O percent interest rate will not attract many investors to our markets.
I will remind all of you that Bernake raised interest rates 17 times in a row without a breather, which is what caused the fragile, overly indebted system to start to unwind in the first place. He was later forced to reverse all of the interest rate hikes that he did in the first place, which makes one ask the question: What the heck did he raise rates for knowing that people were heavily indebted and it would provoke a financial collapse?
Traditionally rate increases are allowed to be digested and absorbed by the economy..After a certain time, they are assessed to see if they have accomplished their desired effect to slow down inflation...Bernake did not do this.
I don't agree with the whole Central Bank system...in this regard, I agreed with Ron Paul, who also doesn't like the UN. Ron Paul did not stand a chance of being elected and we all knew that..because his ideas were anti-globalist. On some of his other positions I had some questions, but on the economy and the UN he was right on.
Joyce
A Giant Breach in Earth's Magnetic Field
ReplyDeleteThe years ahead could be especially lively. Raeder explains: "We're entering Solar Cycle 24. For reasons not fully understood, CMEs in even-numbered solar cycles (like 24) tend to hit Earth with a leading edge that is magnetized north. Such a CME should open a breach and load the magnetosphere with plasma just before the storm gets underway. It's the perfect sequence for a really big event."
Sibeck agrees. "This could result in stronger geomagnetic storms than we have seen in many years."
http://tinyurl.com/5r46c9
Found this and though it was interesting. Apparently even NASA thinks we are on the verge of something big.
JD
Oh as we knew would happen, the UN backs the Road Map approach..
ReplyDeletehttp://tiny.cc/uhACo
Not good news..but not surprising. We'll probably need the Maitreya on the scene to help move things along now....joking.
Joyce
To all those who are following the Len, Dorothy, Joyce discussion on Yeshua/Jesus, I thought you would be interested to see a partial list, by no means comprehensive of how many times Yeshua's name is used in Tanakh ( Torah, Prophet and Writings).
ReplyDeleteAs I said, it's not a comprehensive list, but God has told us His Name, the Name that we can be saved in. Jews no longer know the exact pronunciation of YHVH. This stands for the Hebrew letters (yod hehe vav heh) Some people say Yaweh, some say Yaveh but the exact pronunciation is not known today, because the vowels in the Hebrew were not written down in ancient times and in order to keep the command to not use the Lord's name in vain ( which means to make it empty) they only allowed the High Priest to pronounce it once a year on Yom Kippur. As we all know there is no Holy of Holies to perform the Yom Kippur sacrifices for the atonement of Israel, so the Jews have lost the exact pronunciation of this name.
They refer to Him as HaShem out of reverence,which means "the Name" or G-d, to signify that they don't want to misuse His name, but God did not leave us without a name by which we can be saved. That name is Yeshua/Jesus. Jesus is a transliteration of Yeshua so Engish speaking people use that. I use Yeshua because it is literally the Hebrew word that means Salvation is of God..
God understands English, so there is no problem with Jesus for those who were saved in this name and are more comfortable saying that than Yeshua.
Go to the end of the comment on the Dennis Cuddy article and you will see that God has a Name, and He left if for us to call on Him...
This is for the Christians on the blog who may not be familiar with the Hebrew background on some of this, only for those who are interested.. Imagine, the Temple was destroyed in 70ad, but 40 years earlier God left us the one Name in heaven and on earth, in which we can be saved.
When Moses asked God His name, look how God responds:
Ex. 3:14 God said to Moses, “1I AM WHO 1I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘1I AM has sent me to you.’”
Ex. 3:15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘aThe LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My bmemorial-name 1to all generations.
The literal meaning of I AM WHO I AM is I shall be what I shall be.. Hmmmm. I shall be what I shall be? Do you think He can be whatever He wants to be, or is He limited by our imaginations?
Look how Yeshua refers to Himself:
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham 1was born, I am.”
The people listening who were very familiar with Torah knew He was calling HImself the I AM Who I AM.
In this verse here, He is saying He is the I AM:
John 8:28 Jesus, therefore, said to them, ‘When ye may lift up the Son of Man then ye will know that I am [he]; and of myself I do nothing, but according as my Father did teach me, these things I speak;
There was no He on the end in the original Greek text and it is the same when he's questioned by Pilate. He is telling us, He's the I AM.
Just wanted to point out some things that are not always obvious in the English translations of our texts.. but for the rest of this business of the name of God, go to the old post which is up to 370 something comments now, I think..?
God doesn't want His Name hidden. Look what He said with regards to Pharaoh:
Ex. 9:16 “But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth.
God has always wanted His Name to go throughout the earth!!!
And by the way, aren't you encouraged to know that God is perfect in all that He does? He left us His Name.
Blessings,
Joyce
From Michael Sneed - Chicago Sun-Times Columnist (12/16/08):
ReplyDeleteSneed hears rumbles President-elect Barack Obama's chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, is reportedly on 21 different taped conversations by the feds -- dealing with his boss' vacant Senate seat!
A lot of chit-chat?
Hot air?
Or trouble?
To date: Rahm's been mum. Stay tuned.
The Fed cut its target rate for overnight loans between banks to a range of zero to 0.25 percent.
ReplyDeleteWell SURE God UNDERSTANDS ENGLISH! Didn't He create it at the time of the scattering of the Tower of Babel? I have a funny feeling He is finding this discussion of names strange. See Isaiah 42:8!
ReplyDelete"I am the Lord. That is my name. My glory I will not share iwth another, neither will I give my praise to graven images."
Joyce,
ReplyDeleteDo we know for sure if the verb
"asher" was in between "I am" and
"I am"? As I understand it, the verb
"asher" means not only "who" but
it also means "that" , "as", and "what".
So, He could have said "I am who I am',
or "I am what I am", or "I am as I am",
or "I am that I am" .
But it occurs to me that if the verb
"asher' isn't even used, then He said:
"I am I am" which makes perfect sense
too. And He follows it up immediately
with ..."tell them I Am has sent you."
None of this changes anything, of
course, it just amazes me.
Blessed be the name of the Lord
forever.
Yes, the verb asher is there. I have asked a friend who is a Hebrew scholar to verify the translation that I gave you. When I hear from him, I'll get back to you.
ReplyDeleteBlessings,
Joyce
Oh Paul, that was you.. Didn't see your name on top..
ReplyDeleteSorry, Joyce
Dear Peeps,
ReplyDeleteI've been a little out of the loop the last several days. Part of the reason that I even found Constance's site was due in part to a back injury I suffered a year ago October. Ruptured L4 & L5 with lesions to my spine. Wish it had been from something cool like jumping out of a plane or a ski accident, but no, I argued with my giant, heavy entertainment center because I didn't like where the movers had placed it when we moved into our new house last fall, and I lost the argument. I'm a severe asthmatic, so my doc said no to regular surgery but yes to spinal laser surgery. HMO said no to paying for it twice. So I'm stuck with just the darn epidural shots that don't really help the injury much.
Praise be to the Almighty that I have a very high tolerance to pain so I haven't been on any pain meds since March!
That being said, being a type A mom and all, I decided to stick with the usual family holiday traditions and attempt to play "super mom" this season, and paid for it big time by Saturday. Basically I've been mostly bed ridden for the last few days. :-(
You'd think that I'd learn!
I'm trying to catch up as you all have been doing A LOT of work here the last few days!
Wanted you to know that I haven't checked out or anything, just learning life's lessons the hard way this season.
Blessings to you all,
-SV
I'm new to this site, though Constance is not new to me; I read her book when it first came out. Anyway, just as a point of consideration, there is no present form of the verb 'to be' in Hebrew. In other words, one cannot say 'I am' in Hebrew, but rather, I will be what I will be.' On can say 'I go' but not 'I am going.' Makes things a tad more difficult, but the Jews/Hebrew people had an understanding of things that we do not, so it is best to check with a Jewish Hebrew scholar. I certainly understand Him to Be, as none other can, but there are those who will throw the argument out there, so ...
ReplyDeletePax,
Tikvah
From guardian.co.uk (12/16/08):
ReplyDeleteIMF chief issues stark warning on economic crisis
The head of the International Monetary Fund urged governments to step up action to stem the global economic crisis or risk delaying a recovery and sparking violent unrest on the streets.
Using a speech last night in Madrid to issue his stark warning, Dominique Strauss-Kahn argued that government efforts to tackle the economic downturn so far have been uncertain and largely insufficient, which could lead to severe consequences. He singled out the eurozone nations as he attacked the inadequate global response.
His hard-hitting comments came as fears of a prolonged slump intensified after China showed signs that its economy could be in more trouble than initially expected next year. Factory output in the rapidly growing economy registered the weakest growth in almost a decade last month.
Joyce,
ReplyDeletethank you for the Hebrew translation. Jesus sure caused a ruckus when he said those words "I AM". The religious leaders of the day were so offended that he was claiming to be God.
I appreciate coming back to the basics amidst all of the complex and troubling news of the times we live in.
Dear SV (10:22 AM):
ReplyDeletePlease take good care of yourself, even though I know how difficult it is to rest this time of year.
Meanwhile, I will keep you in my daily parayers.
May the good Lord bless and heal you and free you from all of your pain.
JOYCE
ReplyDeleteAgain you get it wrong. It is not a three way discussion with you taking on two other people. I've not been commenting on the scholarly aspects of the two religions because I'm not knowledgeable in that area. Len has been debunking you continuously and you just merrily move on, giving your own point of view while ignoring anything he says. You write you don't have the time to answer his comments and then post a three footer with your own material. At least he has the courtesy to comment on the topics you bring up, correcting your errors.
They say a little learning is a dangerous thing, and it is pretty clear you know little about Judaism. Throwing Messianic Christian lingo around doesn't mean you understand what the Jewish words mean.
Dorothy
Dorothy
I loved the discussion on the Holy Name of YaHWeH and Yahshuah. There is a great Bible - The Holy Name Bible. Can be hard to read as it's King James, but the return to Hebrew names is priceless. We miss much in English.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone heard of Project Lucifer? It is denied by NASA but is a plan to create a star (bit of a god complex going on there) by sending a probe loaded with plutonium into Saturn. It was covered on a podcast The Final Countdown by Mark Ciasullo http://www.podango.com/podcast_episode/2223/76183
83/The_Final_Countdown/
TFCProject_Lucifer_17
or do a search on it. Google will probably not return as many hits as another search engine.
Either way, by science and deceit or "the prince of the powers of the air"
Ephesians 2:2 (American Standard Version)wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
if this "miracle" happens, many will be fooled.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteThe translation is the right translation.
Joyce
I should have added
ReplyDelete2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
Revelation 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
SV
ReplyDeleteOngoing pain is a situation that a person has to live through to understand how it affects the mind, the body and daily life. I've been there and am there right now. Maryanne who posts here also has an ongoing back problem which is causing her problems on a daily basis.
Prayer, time and distraction are the best helps. When you are tempted to overdo, remember that a little can help you to tolerate more, but a lot can cause you to make bad decisions that will cause setbacks. Been there done that. I kept waiting for someone to fit me with a Superman outfit to show how hard I had tried, but alas, it didn't happen. Life just went on.
Dorothy
12/17/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Joyce,
You are perpetuating this useless discussion by insisting on posting nonsense; “a partial list, by no means comprehensive of how many times Yeshua's name is used in Tanakh.”
The short answer is simply zero and you would know that if you did not brainwash or hypnotize yourself. The only thing you proved is that a little learning is a dangerous thing.
Using the Greek Scriptures as a proof text for the Tanakh is a non-starter; literally putting the cart before the horse.
Using a name to prove divinity is laughable. Many common names contain God’s Name such as:
Hezekiah – The Mighty God
Tovia – God’s goodness
Elisha – God is salvation
Elijah – YHVH God
Jesse – The Lord is
Eli – God is
Eliezer – God helps
Netanyahu -- God gives
As regards proclaiming God’s Name, yes, but not in vain, as on bumper stickers.
“You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain, for the Lord will not hold blameless anyone who takes His name in vain. (Exod. 20:7)”
When there are apparently conflicting verses in the Tanakh Jews have a set of thirteen systematic, logical, exegetal rules for deciding on the implications and acceptable course of action. You, on the other hand, fly by the seat of your pants and consider such rules “man-made.” They are and are not. They are man made pursuant to Deut. 17:8f which authorizes such and commands the people to follow them without deviation.
Deut. 17:8 If a matter eludes you in judgment, between blood and blood, between judgment and judgment, or between lesion and lesion, words of dispute in your cities, then you shall rise and go up to the place the Lord, your God, chooses. 9 And you shall come to the Levitic kohanim and to the judge who will be in those days, and you shall inquire, and they will tell you the words of judgment. 10 And you shall do according to the word they tell you, from the place the Lord will choose, and you shall observe to do according to all they instruct you. 11 According to the law they instruct you and according to the judgment they say to you, you shall do; you shall not divert from the word they tell you, either right or left. 12 And the man who acts intentionally, not obeying the kohen who stands there to serve the Lord, your God, or to the judge that man shall die, and you shall abolish evil from Israel.
Peace and blessing,
Len
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteI've answered Len's comments where appropriate..but since you claim you haven't read any of my posts, I'm just curious how you know what I have or haven't answered? By the way, Len has not addressed ever single point I have made, for example he claims you can't be a Jew and follow Yeshua, but that's not true because it says clearly in the book of Acts:
Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
This by the way, was immediately after Paul performed the rites of purification, proving to the crowd he had not abandoned Torah either. To perform these rites, one must offer an animal, so obviously Paul was observing Torah, not "Christianity". He just understood that Yeshua was the Living Torah..and that Yeshua's death was a once and for all payment for sin.. As long as the Temple was standing Jewish believers in Yeshua continued to offer animals..
Len is taking canned answers from antimissionary websites like Rabbi Singer's.. There are ancient rabbis on record that contradict what he wrote. I cited one and received no response on that from Len, concerning Isaiah 53...Now, I don't want to argue you with you but you're just plainly wrong in your assessment of the dialogue.
It seems to me that you yourself don't know enough about Judaism to answer yourself, so you got Len who is more knowledgeable than yourself to come on the blog. to try and prove Yeshua is not God which is just fine with me. I have no problem discussing with Len and I think it is instructive for others who have not heard this before. . 97% of the people on this blog believe that Yeshua is God, hands down...
You are unable to defend your reasons why He is not, but you are willing to take someone else's word for it instead of digging into the Scriptures yourself.
If Torah and Mishna and Talmud are so important to you, it seems like you should be doing the digging for yourself instead of taking someone else's word for all that it says. Shame on you, Dorothy! You spend so much time searching on the web for the New Age and you can't dig into the Word of God, and your religious books. God's Word is much, much more important than all the books on the New Age, and if you really look at the text carefully you can find Yeshua too. That is what is happening to rabbis in our day. Halleluyah.. Mashiach must be coming back soon!!!
Joyce
SV -
ReplyDeletehope your back gets better - if you need a phone number for movers - well, I am old enough not to be moving things like you were myself.
Project Lucifer -
that wholw thing was supposed to transpire with the millenium - and the Jupite probe - which did not transpire, obviously.
Oldmanoftheski -
If that isn’t a bunch of fear mongering B.S., I don’t know what is! I understand no human should blaspheme heavenly angels, but to reveal the nature of the beast has been the major work of this website. (My opinion, of course.) And obviously Constance and Joan aren't afraid to speak this name or discuss the nature of the beast. For that I say Amen!
Yep - agreed -
And I also do not mean to offend anyone who is not mature enough in thier walk to be investigating these things.
DouginMI
I have no qualms ablout it myself.
Len and Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteYou elude yourselves with your exactness.
I am strongly in favor of the non-division of the land of Israel, and strong supporter of Jews as the apple of God's eye. But I agree that we should leave to real rabbis the meaning of words in the Torah. I am shocked by the disagreement on this issue, which is not one of the real issues confronting us all.
ReplyDeleteI too am in chronic pain, and I know how it affects the mind and heart. I keep telling the Lord, I am NOT Jesus that I can suffer this much and retain my composure. I will get angry whether I want to or not. And perhaps that is what is happening here on this forum; people are in pain, and therefore angry at "whatever."
Let us recall that the Lord is coming soon to take His bride out of this, with recreated bodies that no longer hurt. This is one strong reason to look for the rapture, but there is another: the psychotronics which will be used by the Illuminati to brainwash masses, technology which has been in development for decades; if you think pain can overwhelm the integrity of your composure, try psychotronics overwhelming your mind. And try to say "Lord, deliver us from evil, take us out of the kingdom of evil into Your kingdom," and "Deliver us from the time of trial."
Mariel
Len,
ReplyDeleteI have something that you will not understand until the day you bend your knee to Yeshua, that is the Ruach Hakodesh. When Yeshua died and rose and ascended into Heaven on the day of Shavuot, something very strange happened...just as Moses received the Torah on stone at Mt Sinai on Shavuot, men received Yeshua by the Holy Spirit could understand truth.. Torah was put "on their hearts" ..
Let me show you:
Acts 2:1 ¶ When athe day of Pentecost(Shavuot) had come, they were all together in one place.
Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled athe whole house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to bspeak with other 1tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Acts 2:5 ¶ Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:7 aThey were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Acts 2:8 “And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
Acts 2:9 “Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, bPontus and 1cAsia,
Acts 2:10 aPhrygia and bPamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around cCyrene, and 1dvisitors from Rome, both Jews and 2eproselytes,
Acts 2:11 Cretans and Arabs — we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”
Acts 2:12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”
*****Acts 2:13 But others were mocking and saying, “aThey are full of sweet wine.”
Acts 2:14 ¶ But Peter, 1taking his stand with athe eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
Acts 2:15 “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, afor it is only the 1third hour of the day;
Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
Acts 2:17 ‘aAND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL 1MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
Acts 2:18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
Acts 2:19 ‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
Acts 2:20 ‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
Acts 2:21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT aEVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’
You see Len, Peter knew Tanakh and he knew what was happening.. These were mainly diaspora Jews coming for the pilgrim feast to Jerusalem He also said:
Acts 2:29 ¶ “1Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both bdied and was buried, and dhis tomb is 2with us to this day.
Acts 2:30 “And so, because he was aa prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of 1the Christ, that aHE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Acts 2:32 “This Jesus aGod raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
Acts 2:33 “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and bhaving received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
Acts 2:34 “For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘aTHE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Acts 2:35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’
Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ — this Jesus cwhom you crucified.”
Acts 2:37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “2Brethren, 3awhat shall we do?”
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “aRepent, and each of you be bbaptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:39 “For athe promise is for you and your children and for all who are bfar off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Acts 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly atestified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “1Be saved from this perverse generation!”
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand 1asouls.
Acts 2:42 They were acontinually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to bthe breaking of bread and 1ato prayer.
Acts 2:43 ¶ 1Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many awonders and signs were taking place through the apostles.
Acts 2:44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
Acts 2:45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Acts 2:46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and bbreaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
I hope you take Shimon Kefa's words seriously, because they are for those who are "far off" too.
Shalom,
Joyce
******there have always been mockers...not just today, but 2000 years ago.
oh p.s. Len,
ReplyDeleteJust as 3000 were slain for worshipping the golden calf, on Shavuot when the Ruach HaKodesh was given 3000 were saved.. Pretty interesting "coincidence".
""Pro-life pastor Rick Warren will give the invocation at President-Elect Barack Obama’s inauguration"
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or is it becoming more difficult each day to distinguish The Drudge Report from the Onion?
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/503643.aspx
Dear Anon 11:22, Dorothy & DouginMI,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your wise words, humor, and compassion.
I appreciate you all so much!
Hoping God grades on the "bell curve" with me,
-SV
Messianic Jews detained at Ben-Gurion
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/54u9ey
US report: Rise in violence against Messianic Jews and Christians
http://tinyurl.com/534qqv
On occasion, the comments here have become focused on what some interpret as religious bigotry and/or marginalization directed at themselves because of their personal religious beliefs. I have yet to concur with those who have protested.
I have been silently following the Joyce/Len/Dorothy comments. Yesterday morning however, after reading a frequent commenter here , state that she sees Joyce, a Jewish believer in Jesus/Yeshua as neither a Christian nor a Jew, I will not remain silent. I am also, as well as many others who read comments, but have never posted, a believer in Jesus/Yeshua as Lord and Messiah.-a brother in the Lord to Joyce. The comment I refer to, as well as many others in the on-going discussion ridicule and mock Joyce and our faith with some of the most blatant and disparaging commentary I have ever read. As the blog owner here admonished us several days ago - we should "PREPARE FOR MARGINALIZATION". I agree. We will be singled out and opposed - not if we compromise and join the world religions on common ground and keep our beliefs to ourselves - but if we dare to hold up Jesus/Yeshua as the Name above all Names, the One and only Lord and Redeemer of mankind.
As I write, Messianic Jews are being systematically marginalized, and denied full citizenship in Israel solely based on their Messianic religious beliefs and much maligned "missionary work".
Unlike Atheist Jews or Buddhist Jews who are welcomed, Jews who have come to believe that Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah and proclaim Him as such are considered dangerous by some and a threat to the State of Israel. If these Jewish believers renounce their Jewish Messiah they will again be welcomed and accepted as a fellow Jew.
Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs/Law of Return 5710-1950
• "The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he or she may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.
For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion."
Law of Return (Amendment No. 2) 5730-1970*
"Rights of members of family
4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, EXCEPT (emphasis mine) for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1950_1959/Law%20of%20Return%205710-1950
"Another religion" includes Messianic Jews who have, in the eyes of the lawmakers,
"forfeited their Judaism" and "become Christian" - even if that ethnic Jewish person
keeps Torah. Adolf Hitler saw it differently. He showed no discrimination between
Messianic Jews or Orthodox Jews in his evil dream for a pure Aryan race.
The June 08 violence against a Messianic/Hebrew Christian family in Ariel was rightly condemned. Those here who have justified their words of ridicule, and snide mocking toward Joyce, saying with distain that she "brought it on herself" may find themselves in the same boat as Messianic Jews in the very near future. Jews and Gentiles alike should stand up and oppose anti-Semitism and other forms of discrimination based on an individuals race or religion.
SV,
ReplyDeleteI understand your pain all to well. Two years ago I ruptured C-6 and C7 disc, which fragmented into my spinal column. Before the complete rupture I had endured the epideral shots as well, 3 in my neck while I was awake, and they also did a series of 5 at a time when I was asleep. All they accomplished was to make my neck stiffer. Like your situation my pain persisted, both neck and nerve pain in my arm. When the disc ruptured it did damage to the nerve so I spend most of my days with pain from the Ulner nerve (same nerve you hit when you whack your funny bone) Unlike you I have had a cervical fusion, of which I am not a fan. Neck pain still persists as well as the pain in my arm. I am telling you this because I understand that no one can really comprehend what you are going through unless they have been there. You will be in my prayers that you will be able to recover from this injury.
JD
From AmericanFreePress.com:
ReplyDeleteChange? Obama Inner Circle Filled with Bilderbergers (9 out of 14)
1. TIMOTHY GEITHNER – TREASURY SECRETARY
2. PAUL VOLCKER – ECONOMIC RECOVERY ADVISORY BOARD
3. RAHM EMANUEL – CHIEF OF STAFF*
4. LAWRENCE SUMMERS – NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL
5. DAVID AXELROD – SENIOR ADVISOR*
6. HILLARY CLINTON – SECRETARY OF STATE
7. JOSEPH BIDEN – VICE PRESIDENT
8. BILL RICHARDSON – COMMERCE SECRETARY
9. ROBERT GATES – DEFENSE SECRETARY
10. TOM DASCHLE – HEALTH SECRETARY
11. ERIC HOLDER – ATTORNEY GENERAL*
12. JANET NAPOLITANO – HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR*
13. GEN. JAMES L. JONES – NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR
14. SUSAN RICE – U.N. AMBASSADOR*
*Nos. 3, 5, 11, 12 & 14 are NOT members of the Bildeberg group.
However, Nos. 12 & 14 are members of the Council on Foreign Relations.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5360865.ece
ReplyDeleteFrom Times OnlineDecember 17, 2008
Russia provides 10 MiG fighter jets to Lebanon for free
Russia gave Lebanon an early Christmas gift of 10 MiG fighter jets today in a deal to boost defence co-operation.
You can read the rest of the article. Posted by Drudge.
RICK
ReplyDeleteJoyce started this problem quite some time ago by her inappropriate missionary work here. No one else here works to convince others to join a particular branch of Christianity.
Although there are divisions between Christian groups, I have yet to see anyone on this blog say someone must become an Episcopalian, Lutheran, Southern Baptist, Jehovah's Witness, etc. or risk the fires of hell. No one has worked specifically to condemn Moslims, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism or any eastern religion, quoting passages from any part of the Bible used by Christians. Although everyone here has their reasons for following the branch of Christianity they believe is the one that most accurately relies on the sources they use, they have not found it an appropriate forum to denounce others with comments that are repetitive.
There was unity here in the belief that pagan and occult practices are not acceptable practices on which to base a culture. Even then the attack has been on organizations and individuals promoting such a change rather than on any specific pagan system.
And then along came Joyce with her perfumed comments attacking Judaism, saying that Judaism and Christianity can and should be blended, and anyone who doesn't see why this should happen is condemned by God. Her long comments suggest a computer generated program which answers questions for the Messianic Christian community.
Since it appeared I was the only Jewish person posting here, why the overkill? It was for the same reason that the Messianic community, where it does missionary work, primarily works in Christian communities, attempting to convince Christians that Judaism is not a valid religion, one that needs Christianity to complete it. There are many individuals who have left Christianity in order to join the Jewish community, but there is no organized movement to convince all Christians that their belief system has major deficiencies.
As far as Messianic Christians and Israel is concerned, Jews there are put in a difficult position. In order to "make nice" with the world's secular communities, they are being forced to accept Messianic Christians as citizens. While I would condemn any physical action taken against them just as I condemn physical action taken against anyone with whom I have a disagreement, there is no difference between the Messianic Christians who come into the Jewish state of Israel and then verbally slap Jews in the face and the homosexual community members who came into the Christian church to spread their own distorted beliefs. Troublemakers instigate reactions against themselves for reasons. They like to make themselves appear as the victims. It's a standard tactic used by many involved in political change.
Troublemakers always justify their actions. It has more to do with their character than their beliefs.
There is a time and a place to work to bring change. Instigating in a crowd, which is what Joyce has continued to do on this blog should be seen for what it is. If she only was convinced she had to get me to convert, she would have found my email address and done it that way. What she is doing via the blog is something else.
I do not care what belief system Joyce has. What I will respond to is her instigating Christians against the Jewish community, no matter how perfumed her statements are.
Judaism should get as much respect on this blog as Christianity. And it does from almost all of the posters who have their faith in Christianity and live up to their belief in the Great Commandment. We all get along in our fight against the New Age movement that threatens both of our communities and on which we should be concentrating here. When that doesn't happen, I will stand up against the troublemaker.
Dorothy
Rick,
ReplyDeleteVery well said, and refreshingly honest.
Anon. 3:50
ReplyDeleteObama is a change from the moronic policies of President Bush. Surrounding himself with the people you listed, some very familiar, may not seem like a change. But, most people here would agree a drastic change is coming. Check out this following site:
http://tinyurl.com/6r76hw
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteJoyce has never instigated anyone
against Judaism. What a horrible lie.
Joyce is not an instigator at all.
Why do you throw slander at those
with whom you disagree ?
Can't you make your points without
the vilification and demonization of
others ?
You're a mean spirited person.
If you don't know anything about
the Torah, what does that say?
You shouldn't have started to
debate her, much less tear her
down.
If anyone is bringing disrespect to
Judaism, ...it isn't Joyce.
Dorothy & Len & whoever else,
ReplyDeleteI as a christian get a little worn out from Joyce and her long posts, but their are many including me that see how strange and arrogant your thoughts are when discussing anything with her. Much of what she says is true but I won't be taking up lengths of space to be part of what she is defending, she is doing just fine, a little long winded but just fine.
Long long time reader and lurker.
PAUL
ReplyDeleteThere is no difference between Joyce's Messianic Christianity view of Judaism and the Moslim view of Christianity. Both MC and the Moslims believe they are the fulfillment of a previous religion.
Activists in both of those communities feel justified in acting as instigators to do get others to do whatever is necessary to get non-believers to see the "truth."
Anyone who wants to fight the New Age movement has to know the tactics used.
Dorothy
P.S.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't new either Dorothy, I apreciate your contributions very much and always have and have said that every time I post this exact comment.
Dorothy, you just do it again and again, it is amazing.
ReplyDeleteBILL
ReplyDeleteJust fine in doing what? Forcing a member of the Jewish community to defend Judaism after months of instigation?
Dorothy
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteIt seems to be instigation to you. Christianity is in our minds and findings, is Judaism. Isn't that simple enough to let comments be? If you choose to disagree, that is great, it creates discussion. That is part of what is going on here, exposing the New Agers, this is done through some sort of finding the difference between what is true and false. If the discussions regarding the Torah are included, that is great for all parties.
Their is no problem until you start calling names, grouping christians in with radical muslims...
Why do say that Messianic Jews are not Jews? How are those people fulfulling a previous religion? To say they are fulfilling a previous religion is an example of arrogance. You are assuming they are not Jews? All those that followed Jesus became a different religion? Can you place Moslums in the same camp though they were not Jews when the religion started?
Who is Jesus to you?
Honestly, not sarcastically.
I have been following along for some time and every once in a while ask a question or such. I can't help but be troubled by the hostile goings on here.
ReplyDeleteI have thoroughly enjoyed and do enjoy Constance's insights and research and it has challenged my thinking regarding the new age and how events are playing out in this world.
As many are Christians on this comment board I am surprised at the animosity and harsh criticisms that are thrown around. If anything, there needs to be unity based on the basic belief of who Jesus is and was.
I do understand that of some here do not believe in Jesus being the Messiah, and to those I would ask you to open your heart and come to Him who died for the sins of the world, first for the Jew and then for the gentile. He was the last sacrifice, the Lamb of God slain for each person who believes in Him.
I made a comment thanking Joyce for pointing out what Jesus said about himself, "I tell you the truth, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' At that point the religious leaders picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself slipping away from the temple grounds." John 8:58
I figure that if this is the case, if Jesus is who he said he was.... hmmm. Who would want to keep their mouth shut about it! Oh, and if one belives this how could they be anti-Jewish? It all started with the Jewish people and I know that as a believer in Jesus my love for the Jewish people, Gods chosen people, has grown even stronger!
Dear JD,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your prayer and encouragement. Very appreciated!
In Him,
-SV
CHRISTIAN MOSLIMS
ReplyDeleteIf anyone believes Muslims are fulfilled Christians, it's a free country. Let's say those Muslims tell Christians over and over again they are incomplete, that what they believe isn't true and that they must accept the Koran, maybe those Christians would understand why I've taken the stands I have. This could be happening in Muslim countries where Muslims are in the majority.
To assume I know nothing about Christianity and must be taught it by Joyce is insulting. The academic world is full of scholars of religion. Each is not presumptuous enough to assume that everyone is waiting to hear their pearls of wisdom in order to bring all into line. Joyce is not a religious scholar. She is a preacher with a computer program who doesn't want to take NO for an answer. I don't find that impressive. If others find it impressive, that's their business.
Dorothy
So...who are you saying Jesus is?
ReplyDeleteBy saying she is wrong in her belief are you not do the very same thing?
bill
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteYou said: "I do not care what belief system Joyce has. What I will respond to is her instigating Christians against the Jewish community, no matter how perfumed her statements are."
Personally speaking, Joyce has spent a great deal of her time making Judaism come alive for me, through her comments here. Although she is long-winded, (so am I at times) she has nevertheless helped me through some of the problems with the Bible that I had been unable to reconcile by myself. She has never ever instigated anyone against Judaism and that's truly a ridiculous accusation.
I have spoken with Joyce and she has a very deep abiding love for people of all faiths, but Jews especially. She has a very deep love for God and the bible and really tries to share that gift that brings her so much joy and which she has found with others as well.
You are totally wrong about Joyce, and I commend the people here who have spoken up in her defense. I was skewered recently for doing just that and someone even said I was channeling Joyce, and called me Joyce Jr. I took that as a compliment. The animosity some people have for her cannot really be explained in any other terms other than that she is preaching the good word and some do not wish to hear it, because of their contempt for it. I can understand that as well since I found some of the things that Len said contemptible. So now whenever I see his name I just skim right over the comment. Perhaps that's what you and Len can do with Joyce and eventually she'll stop. However, she loves what she believes to be truth, and her personality is such that when she hears people say things that she disagrees with, she speaks up. No one else here does that any better except you. However, Joyce has never been outright disrespectful and people here know that, so please stop insulting her.
You also said the following:
"There was unity here in the belief that pagan and occult practices are not acceptable practices on which to base a culture. Even then the attack has been on organizations and individuals promoting such a change rather than on any specific pagan system."
Wrong. Just last night I pointed directly to Gnosticism and the cult of Mithra as having a very clear connection to the world events we are seeing now and even to the upcoming appearance of Maitreya. You always have marginalized my theories, however, which I find odd for someone who does so much New Age research. I said it to you once and I'll say it to you again, you cannot get to the heart of the New Age problem without searching for the source. I gave a condensation of the source on a different thread and you said my theories had too many ingredients and were overcooked. That may be how you see it, but I can clearly see the common denominator there, as well as its source. But I am not here to discuss that. Only to point out the contradictions to your statement.
I simply want to say that Joyce is not a troublemaker, and anyone who has been on this blog for any length of time can clearly discern the voices of the trouble makers here.
That being said, if you and Len would just stop answering her, maybe she'll stop commenting. Try it.
MARYANNE
ReplyDeleteDo you remember who contacted you and brought you over to this blog? I did. I did it on the basis of coming across your blog and believing that you had information to contribute over here. If I was discounting your ideas would I have reached out to you by email and by phone? If I was discounting your information would I have encouraged people on my email list to go and visit your blog? I posted information about your blog on other websites. Did I validate your thought about the blobs you saw in the pictures you took? I think the first time I disagreed with you was when you said you saw something strange in the sky and I identified it as a very high flying plane that had the sun reflecting on it. I disagreed with your cockamamie stew of thoughts about the source of the New Age movement. That kind of blob of information is found on tons of conspiracy sites. I even came to your defense on this blog after our last conversation, attempting to straighten out a misunderstanding between you and Constance. After all of this I am accused by you of not supporting your ideas? I think you should rethink your comment.
Cult of Mithra? I don't think they have an organizational address. There is much speculation and academic study on this cult. "Sounds good to me" is not academic research. Please footnote your speculations if you want others to take them seriously, and show how they are tied to the New Age movement.
If you had followed the blog carefully instead of sporadically, you would know that avoiding Joyce didn't stop her attacks on Judaism as a valid religion in and of itself. Judaism and Christianity have gone in different directions over the last 2,000 years, each with their own teachers and scholars. Jews didn't sit around waiting for Joyce to come along and tell them how wrong they are.
PRETEND SCENARIO
OK. I'll use Joyce's tactic on you. I'll say, "I really like and care about you. I want the best for you. I want you to go to heaven. Go back to your Jewish roots and leave the alterations to the Jewish religion alone. They are only distractions from the truth. I'm only telling you this because I care about you and want the best for you." Now if you don't take my advice after this and start converting to Judaism, I'll remind you and every reader of this blog tomorrow and the day after and the day after that for months until you realize how correct I am and how much I care about your soul and the soul of every Christistian because I know all of you accept parts of Judaism but should go for the entire unaltered thing." Now I'll whip up a bunch of quotes from the Torah to verify what I've just told you and tell you that the New Testament is just a distraction from the truth. Oh you want to tell me about Christianity after that? You think Christianity is the best religion to follow and that it contains truth? Well, I'll just do the Joyce thing and ignore what you are saying. It's not that I'll have anything against Christianity. I think it's good but I'll continue telling you it's just wrong in its totality.
END OF PRETEND SCENARIO
If you weren't offended by what I would be saying, then I'd say you don't take Christianity very seriously.
My guess is that no one has ever come up to you telling you to practice Judaism. Well as I Jew I've held my tongue over and over and over and over again in the face of well meaning but obnoxious behavior. I've controlled my reaction because usually it happens in a one on one situation and I make mental excuses for the behavior of others.
If you think Joyce's behavior is acceptable, then you have no argument against any New Age promoter because they use the same tactics to get you to follow their "spirituality." They think they are changing the culture for everyone's good. They have their own documentation. They have converted many powerful people to their viewpoint. They think Jews and Christians are wrong in their beliefs, or incomplete.
There are standards we are to live by given to us in the Bible. We should not drop those standards when dealing with people we disagree with, excusing our behavior because it is for someone's good. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Dorothy
Sometimes it makes it easier to not have to see everyones posts, I just realized that you can collapes all comments and open only the ones you wish to open. It makes for a very nice blog.
ReplyDeleteYou know I have many animals, I think animals are a true window to G-D, in as much as most are herd animals, they like to be together as much as people. But occasionally one or another does something obnoxious to the rest of the herd, the normal and universal response of the herd is to turn their backs on that one, ostersize them until they learn behavior best for the whole herd. It works,surprising how G-D speaks through them sometimes.
YS
Dorothy
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with your last post.
I have gone back and read many of the posts from the past, and truely believe Joyce is in need of pain to make her feel more christ like.
To those who think Judaism is to exact I say only the Torah was never meant to be translated to any other language. and should only be read in it true language, and if you do not like that exactness remember that is the G-d given chosen people job of Jews. And they have done that job well. All of you should learn the torah as it is meant to be read, or how can you possibly know as some of us do that Joyce is twisting it to suit herself. For the ones who asks why Messianic Jews are being marginalized, and ostersized, it is their constant missionarying. And for several of you, you have advised the jews here to ignore them. basically marginalize, and ostersize. Please make up your minds how you want us to treat jews who have left the religion for another. please
thanks YS
Dear Rick,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments. I saw that article and was tempted to post it. There are cases being fought right now to defend these Messianics in court in Israel, and God willing they will win.. They are full-blooded Jews, just as the young man who received a "happy Purim" package with a bomb in at and had his face and body blown up...God is good though and this 15 year old is miraculously healing thanks to all the prayers going up for him..The family's testimony in the community is outstanding and God is using this incident to touch the Jews and the Muslims who know what has happened.
Dorothy,
I will remind you that this recent discussion started because I made a comment on the Mumbai incident that you didn't agree with. You were defending Kabalists, which to my mind are just as bad as the New Agers.. There seems to be a double standard here.. If someone is a Jewish mystic they are above reproach. Is that because their mysticism dates back to Babylon? Excuse me, but you start many of the controversies and you are constantly making cutting remarks to myself and others on the blog who express their opinions. If you don't like my opinions, you have two choices, ignore them or respond, but if you respond don't expect me to be silent.
When I simply respond to your comments or make statements that I believe about a particular situation you are all over me. I know you don't appreciate the fact that I consider myself a Jew and believe in my Messiah Yeshua. I love Torah and don't see a conflict in those two things. That irritates you and you feel obliged to state the Talmudic Rabbinic position on this which is unnecessary. I don't care what they think. They've rejected Yeshua anyway, so their opinions are invalid. If I said I was a Catholic or an Evangelical you don't mind because you can throw me in your historic box and put a label on me.
I've seen your comments on other blogs about Christians and you are not as accepting as you would lead the people on this blog to believe. Personally, you can send all the Jews you want to this blog to try to put down our faith in Yeshua/Jesus and I will continue to pray for all of you to have your eyes open. I don't hate anyone. After all, it's not a new thing that for 2000 years many of OUR people reject Yeshua. Thank God today many of them are changing their mind. I see this as a fulfillment of prophecy and a sign that Yeshua will return soon. ( not too, too soon, that would be the Maitreya or the antimessiah who will come first)
If you send someone like Len to try to build a case against my Jewish Messiah, don't expect me to sit silently by and listen to that kind of nonsense. I will give you all the Biblical reasons to prove that Yeshua is Messiah.. whether you accept them or not is your business..but I will continue to stand for truth. Don't pull the anti-semite card because I love Israel. I stand with, my people, the Jews on many things. They are just a lot of them who still don't know their Messiah..that simple.
Joyce
Long time reader here, thanks for all your work Constance!
ReplyDeleteI want to respond to this issue about christians proselytizing to Jews. Its what Christians are commanded to do. Jesus in the great commission said to Go and proclaim the gospel, to the jew first, and to all the world. I think christians that dont try to convert the Jews that they know are not being obediant to this command.
So what happens when a christian tries to proclaim the gospel to a firm Jew? Perhaps it leads to interesting discussion about what the Jew thinks about Jesus, or about messianic scriptures like the one in Micah abot the Messiah being from Bethlehem and who's beginning is from everlasting. I wonder what the rabbis say about that prophecy? But suppose the Jew is not persuaded, and yet the christian persists? Eventually it will divide them, it has become a point of contention. Jesus said that he came not to bring peace, but to set brother against brother.
If the New Testament taught that Jews could make it to heaven based on rejecting Jesus as the Messiah and following the Torah, if Jesus was just optional (like how Mormons think their extra books are just optional and give them extra heavenly benefits) then there could be peace between Christianity and Judaism, but such is not the case.
The purpose of this blog is NOT to convert someone over to another person's religion.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of this blog is to share information exposing the New Age Movement.
I can't help but add to my earlier comment. If this blog is about the new age and how it ties into the end times prophesied in scripture, how can one NOT proclaim who Jesus is here?
ReplyDeleteIf the end is near, then why wouldn't those who believe in the Christ Jesus exclaim his name to all who can hear?
This is the time to shout it from the rooftops! Jesus saves! He died for you and me! God loved us so much that he sent His one and only son to die on a cross, to be buried and to be raised again!
Jesus is the Messiah, he is alive!
No one can take his place. No one else provides lasting peace!
Hallaluia! Praise His Blessed Name! The name above all names. The prince of peace, King of Kings, Lord of Lords!
Maryanne,
ReplyDeleteJust want to let you know publicly, I appreciate your blog and your insights, not to mention your artwork, so don't allow the comments to get you down. They seem designed to do that at a time whe nyou already have back pain and don't need that, so...
Paul,
I know you've taken your share of stuff too..so thanks.
More than the support for me, I appreciate the people on the blog who have taken a stand for the name of Yeshua/Jesus. In the end that is the most important thing you can do, stand firm in Him in these last days.
Being compared to the Muslims is a little bizarre, but I'm not going to search to hard to understand that remark. Not too worried about that...
My people, sometimes use the anti-semitism charge to confuse the issue. I just want to repeat on this blog, I consider myself a Jew, I'm not antisemitic at all, I'm a strong supporter of the right of ALL Israel to have the Land ( that would include our brothers in exile who may not know they are Israelites yet). To be anti-Semite is to be anti-Ha Shem or against God.
God did not chose my people because they were so obedient:
Deut. 9:5-6 “It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
“Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people.
So in response to Dorothy's earlier remark, I will say "guilty" I am stubborn, but if I am it looks like according to this verse she is too.. At least I am stubbornly attached to Yeshua. Over and over again, the people of Israel were punished because they lacked faith in what God was doing...this pattern continued through the time of Yeshua's presence here on earth and to this day but that is changing. Some of us stick-necked Israelites are getting it.
It's not because of our righteousness that God chose us among the nations, but it's for His Name and His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and above all because He is faithful. He will be glorified when all Israel has Torah on its heart under King Yeshua.
Bill,
A little long-winded...guilty, but most of the time I'm pasting Bible passages, so it's not me honest...
Dorothy,
I don't have any "convert the Jews software" unless you count the Bible as being that...in which case, yes, I have a full copy of the Bible from Genesis to Revelations.. If you've never taken the time to read part 2, that would be Matthew to Revelations, I highly recommend it. You'll see that it's really quite Jewish and tends to complete the other part of the story..
By the way, I heard a rabbi say recently that Yeshua is the greatest rabbi who ever lived.. I'd listen to him over Len if I were you, no offense to Len or anything..
Shalom,
Joyce
RICK'S LINK
ReplyDeleteThe bomb may have been planted by Palestinians who do that kind of thing.
"In a particularly violent incident that place on Purim (March 20) 15-year-old Ami Ortiz, a dual American-Israeli citizen and the son of a Messianic Jewish pastor, was seriously wounded when a bomb exploded in his home in Ariel. The bomb was concealed in a Purim gift basket placed on the doorstep of the boy's home.
Christians close to the case said that the primary suspect was Jewish but police said they had not ruled out the possibility that the assailant was a Palestinian. Ortiz's father David was active as a missionary among Palestinians near Ariel."
Dorothy
JOYCE
ReplyDeleteAs I commented at the other thread, your story about being a Jew doesn't hold. It is full of holes. You say you had family killed in the Holocaust and yet you say you were raised as a Catholic because the truth was being held from you. Then you said all of your family members converted to Christianity.
Converted from what? Catholicism? I asked you when you were a practicing Jews and you didn't want to answer.
This "my people" stuff is getting wearysome. Nobody made you Pope of the Jews. Why do you keep trying to change Christianity. Be proud of being a Christian and be done with it.
You've been caught in a few lies, the latest stating that I hate Jesus. I have no reason to trust anything you say.
Dorothy
I sincerely wish Joyce and Dorothy would stop quarreling. I personally find them both extremely valuable. I have heard Constance say she doesn't like pettiness. I sense a lot of pettiness on this board from two vital players.
ReplyDeleteTime for everybody to grown up!
RABBI SIMPLY MEANS TEACHER
ReplyDeleteThe next time you want to quote a rabbi, please give us his name and tell us where he got his credentials? Maybe through
http://www.messianicbureau.org/mbima/
* MESSIANIC RABBI
1. Formerly a Jewish rabbi and a Messianic for at least two years, or formerly an licensed Messianic Minister, or a Messianic congregation leader
2. Letter from a Messianic Congregation (ie. congregation secretary or trustee, etc.) on letterhead, or recommendation from two other credentialed ministers and/or elders.
3. Proof of past or presently being the leader of a Messianic Congregation
4. Education: Master of Theology in Rabbinic Studies from MBI Yeshiva OR a Master's degree in Jewish studies OR ongoing pursuit of a Master's in Rabbinic studies.
Dorothy
SICK OF ALL THE QUARRELING
ReplyDeleteSo am I. Joyce isn't. She believes getting someone to convert to her religion is more important than researching the New Age movement and has stated this on the blog.
I would like to point out to the individual who thought the New Age movement was only targeting Christians that the New Age movement targets Jews even more than Christians just as Hitler went after the Jews first before he planned to go after the Christians. The first two groups targeted in the early stage of the New Age movement were Jews and Catholics as shown in the Lucis Trust writings.
Dorothy
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteThe Orthodox in the community were also giving this family a hard time. I agree that Orthodox usually do things like burn buildings, not give bombs with nails in them, but they have been known to show violence to Jewish believers in Yeshua, so they are not always angels. There is a Christian and Messianic building that has been burnt down twice by Orthodox now in Jerusalem. Fortunately, some of the nicer Jewish neighbors have seen that this group loves Israel and they got behind them to support their presence in the community.
I don't know them personally, but to me the Ortiz family is a very courageous family who is willing to reach out to the Palestinian Muslims with the good news about Yeshua the Messiah. There are Palestinians who have turned to Yeshua and they no longer hate Jews, even some former terrorists. This is happening all over the Muslim world but doesn't get front page news either. They turn and renounce the evil in their book that talks about killing Jews and Christians. This is God's true "Peace plan". It's interesting that in Yeshua, former Muslims can actually love the Jewish people..because He is the only one who can give them forgiveness and undo all the indoctrination of hatred towards Israel as their eyes are opened to the Bible.
There is a parade at Sukkot called the Jerusalem March, where Christians and Messianics from all the nations of the world parade in the streets of Jerusalem, but there are some in Israel that are "afraid that these people are being missionaries". They hold signs saying things like "We love you Israel" or "Sorry for what our people, the Germans did to you." Yet there are some in Israel that are worried about Jews being converted. Some Jews might see the love of Yeshua and be touched...so what.. are they not free to believe as they like, or should Israel be like the Muslim countries that try to "control" people's belief system and persecute believers in Yeshua, especially those who happen to be Jewish. Since you are making comparisons...Muslim countries forbid any and all sharing of gospel and a former Muslim who believes in Yeshua is worthy of death as an apostate.
It is moving to note that Yeshua had changed the heart of German Christians who were marching with this banner, when only a short 60 years ago their countrymen were killing Jews.
The hearts that have been changed by receiving this message of forgiveness are nothing short of miraculous, including Jewish survivors of the Shoah who have pardoned their Nazi persecutors by believing in Yeshua. If anyone is interested in see the testimonies of 6 survivors, Jews for Jesus distributes it ( that is not an endorsement of Jews for Jesus, but they do have the film). With Yeshua all things are possible..
Joyce
And amen to Gretchen. I 100% agree with you!
ReplyDeleteJoyce
and Foytik...well said! Joyce
ReplyDeleteJust want to highlight what Dorothy said. I hope everyone here will stand against this lie:
ReplyDelete"there is no difference between the Messianic Christians who come into the Jewish state of Israel and then verbally slap Jews in the face and the homosexual community members who came into the Christian church to spread their own distorted beliefs. "
I wonder if the people on the blog agree with this insult to their faith? It's remarks like this that reveal what's in your heart, Dorothy..
Any Messianic Jew, which is what they consider themselves, who shares Yeshua in Israel is obeying the Bible. A homosexual is disobeying the Bible. These two things are the extreme opposite. For an intelligent woman, you can confuse things and if people don't pay attention to your words sometimes they will not notice that you are way off base.
Joyce
JOYCE
ReplyDeleteAgain, I have no reason to believe anything you say without documentation from outside of your community. You don't even blush when you are caught in a lie. You just carry on.
Shall I repeat what I wrote? Sure. You are an instigator. Messianic Christians who come into Israel and instigate against believers in Judaism with falsified information are the same as you. The homosexuals who went to do missionary work in the Christian church complete with their falsified documentation are no different than the Messianic Christians who instigate against the beliefs of Jews. There is no excuse for insulting behavior because a person truly believes in their cause. That's something you don't seem to understand. You think that because you like the religion called Messianic Christianity you can do whatever you want to push it on others.
The homosexuals burst into a Christian church because they believed that they had the truth. They disrupted the service and passed their literature around, flaunting behavior that the chuch members found objectionable. They wanted to teach. No matter how justified they felt, there was absolutely no reason for them to disrespect others.
Messianic Christians go into Jewish communities, disrupting community life and pass their literature around. All because they believe in their cause. They want to teach, not caring how they disrespect the community they live in.
I doubt the church members would have sat their quietly week after week if the homosexuals came in and passed out their literature week after week. The Orthodox Jews who respond have been pushed to their tolerance limits. That's what instigators strive for.
Tough if you don't like the comparison.
Dorothy
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteThat is a very false characterization of the Messianics I know, but since you bring this up how about the Chabad who go all over the world spreading Jewish Mysticism, Kabbalah? In Israel if Messianics are aggressively sharing their faith, they will be kicked out of the country and you know that as well as I, or maybe you don't.
And unlike the Jews who go into Hindusim or Buddhism, at least Messianics are observing Torah, so that should be less threatening rather than more threatening.
You seem to be okay with what Chabad does. .Don't say that they don't do that because I've been approached by Chabad, so I know they are not quiet about their beliefs or about their "rebbe". They're in airports, on street corners. They have centers in many cities in the world.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ein-Sof-(Kabbalah)
http://tinyurl.com/3swv5s
Since you want to talk about New Age, let's talk about the ein sof and all of the other mystical aspects Kabbalah:
http://tinyurl.com/4uwa3g
This is compared to Christian Gnosticism.
Here's a very educated rabbi critiquing Chabad:
http://tiny.cc/0gnAA
How come, since you are all over the New Age, all over Messianics and various other groups, you refuse to criticize Chabad, who go all over the world teaching this deception!!
You need to be a little more consistent if you are going to criticize the Messianics. This is what started our long drawn out conversation in the first place. I called attention to the fact that the Chabad movement are into Kabbalah.. Jewish Mysticism, forbidden in Torah.
By the way, you misquoted me..I never said you that you said you"hate Jesus" so I'm not exactly sure where you got that from? I hope and pray for your sake you don't hate Him, but I'll keep praying for you that your heart softens.
You are free to quote me, but just do it accurately otherwise you are guilty of breaking one of the Ten Words...
Ex. 20:16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Shalom,
Joyce
Thanks Constance – (From a few posts ago and zillions of blogs)Wall Street Journal was purchased by a Warren Buffet last year but I’m sure you were aware.
ReplyDeleteThose who mentioned the possibility of mind control used in the Digital TV switch over – it's not too far fetched!
Title: U.S. PATENT ISSUED FOR MIND CONTROL THROUGH HAARP
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1345.cfm
Here's an excerpt: “In layman's language, once these specific frequencies that causes a certain emotion or thought is precisely identified so exactly that a "fingerprint" of it can be made and stored on a computer, then this "fingerprint" can be sent out over other types of Mass Media!
In other words, the frequency of brain wave that is proven to cause suicidal thoughts, for example, can be recorded by computer and then subliminally sent out via radio programs or TV shows!
Or, if the government wants to cause huge numbers of people to suddenly go into depression, or into euphoria, they can emit the recorded signals via radio or TV and reach the entire population over a period of time!
This capability can even implant specific thoughts or commands into the minds of people. Huge numbers of people within a population can suddenly receive simultaneous thoughts or commands, causing many numbers of them to suddenly carry out the command. If the command is to "kill anyone", you suddenly might have large numbers of unexplained violent assaults by people who have never committed crimes before.
Of course, the application to Biblical prophecy is direct and very serious for citizens living in the End Times.
Listen:
"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast." [Revelation 13:3]
Notice the word, "all" in this sentence. All the peoples of the world looked upon the Beast [Antichrist] with amazement and awe. The Bible then tells us exactly what "all " the peoples of the world were saying in unison.
"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" [Revelation 13:4]
"All" the peoples of the world will be simultaneously amazed and thrilled by Antichrist. This admiration will lead "all" the peoples of the world to "worship" the dragon [Satan] and his man, the beast [Antichrist].
As I have read the volumes of material on the New World Order Plan, I realized that their #1 goal was to successfully stage their New Age Christ -- Maitreya is his name.
Their #1 goal after Maitreya is successfully staged is to lead all the peoples of the world into a worship of him, a worship of him as God. New Age author, David Spangler, stated this part of the Plan most succinctly.
"No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation",
David Spangler,Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations.
[But, then, Spangler chills the soul of any Born Again Christian who knows their Bible generally and prophecy of Revelation specifically.]
"The light that reveals to us the presence of the Christ comes from Lucifer. He is the light-giver, he is aptly named the Morning Star because it is his light that heralds for man the dawn of a great consciousness. He stands as the Great Initiator, the one who hands the soul over to the Christ." [Ibid]
Shalom
JOYCE
ReplyDelete12/16/08 3:50 PM in the Cuddy comments thread #201- two paragraphs you wrote,
"Your so afraid that belief in Yeshua changes your Jewish identity. If you are a descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the House of Judah, it's not the belief in the Jewish Messiah that changes your identity. That's the lie that's been passed down for generations by some of your rabbis. We'll guess what, the ones that stoned the prophets were wrong and so are the rabbis. I pray that Messiah will open their eyes...
"The centuries of persecution to Jews in Jesus name make you hate anything to do with Yeshua. Yeshua never told any Church to persecute Jews.. Don't blame Him for that."
My son runs a community cable station as a volunteer. He works with the local churches to see that their services are carried. He programmed Christmas music as background for the month of December. Our family doesn't discriminate. Nor do we do missionary work.
The goal of the Lubavitchers was to bring Jews back to Judaism. They did not do missionary work in the Christian community. They approached others to find the Jews. If you go advertising yourself as Jewish, which you do, of course they are going to try to get you back to Judaism.
This is how study of Kabbalah is described by a teacher,
http://tinyurl.com/47t7fy
The Lubavitcher community is huge. Frankly they are more business oriented than Kabbalah oriented. They don't sit around studying Kabbalah all of the time, only to take a break and sneak up on Christians. I doubt if they, as an entire community, taught anything that conflicted with Torah.
You do realize that there has been New Age infiltration into all religious groups. That includes the Orthodox Jewish community.
I'm not going to dig for the quote, but you said you came to this website to convert me. I'm not going to dig for the quote because I would have to go through all of your meanderings. No one could pay me enough to do that.
Dorothy
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
"Cult of Mithra? I don't think they have an organizational address. There is much speculation and academic study on this cult. "Sounds good to me" is not academic research. Please footnote your speculations if you want others to take them seriously, and show how they are tied to the New Age movement."
Dorothy, if you can recall a few months back, I specifically asked you to read the book, "The Armageddon Conspiracy", because I wanted your take on it, because I valued your opinion. You blew me off, saying that it was just more antisemitic material.
However, I think that this is more than just another dime-a-dozen conspiracy type book. The book's author was purported to have been commissioned to write the book by a high-ranking Illuminati, probably in the hopes of initiating even more people into the New Age. I would have suspected that it was nothing more than another Dan Brown type novel, except that you can download it free from the Internet. When someone is not interested in receiving money, but is more intent on the agenda of spreading certain information I become very suspicious. In this case, I believe there is some truth to the Illuminati connection. A so-called interview of a high ranking Illuminati member, discussing how the 'Old World Order' must be destroyed in order to save humanity, is what drew me to the book initially, because it stank of the same New Age BS of birthing a new humanity that we are all so familiar with here.
I did read the book, and was deeply troubled by it, because the Gnostic teachings in it were much more dangerous than anything that Dan Brown, Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh or Elaine Pagels has ever written about. The book was not just anti-semetic- it was anti-Christian and Islam, too because these three religions are linked to one God and one creator, whom the Illuminati writers of this book obviously hate with a vengeance that is unprecedented.
They are coming out with their final book of secrets at the end of 2009, in which they reveal their "secret religion". For some reason, I went back to the website that touts the book a few nights ago. On the second link there is a webcam at an ancient Mithraic ruin. That's when I made the connection that these people spreading this evil are not only Gnostics, they are probably practitioners of the cult of Mithra as well. That led me to the cosmos link, and to Maitreya and the upcoming star that we are supposed to see in the sky soon, according to Share International.
I wrote about it in depth on my blog this week, and while I have much more to say, I am leaving for a holiday trip today, so the rest will have to wait. However , please don't accuse me of not linking my research and my suspicions to the New Age, as I have done that very thoroughly in the blog posts that I have done on the subject.
For anyone who is interested, here is a link to the website and the webcam of the Mithraic ruin:
http://www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/page2.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/4flpzc
I will warn once again, that there is something hypnotic about the videos on this site, so please be very covered in prayer, if you decide to go there. An additional warning is that the subject matter there is very much like the book- it is extremely dangerous to people not totally grounded in their faith, because if you do not have an adequate faith and grasp of scripture, you will most probably be deceived by the lies contained in the book.
Here is a sample, which is on the same site, and on the link that says, "The Damned". We read:
"Imagine that humanity's only true religion has been protected by a small, secret group of people for many thousands of years. All the while, other religions have proliferated, proclaiming themselves "the truth" even though they are utterly false, and capturing millions and even billions in their webs of deceit.
Throughout history, all over the world, the adherents of the false religions have relentlessly hunted down the members of the true religion and tried to exterminate them. But the followers of the true religion have grown skilled at concealment. They have survived every persecution, and have managed to keep recruiting brilliant people - including some of the most famous thinkers and artists in history - who have kept the flame alive.
But why has the true religion failed so spectacularly in the face of the false prophets? Why has the truth struggled to be heard? Can there be anything more horrific than that billions of souls have perished believing in a message that is, in most cases, the opposite of the truth?
Coming at the end of 2009. The Soul Camera. The Truth. At last, for everyone. The time of deliverance is at hand. Do you have the ears for the truth? Can you see beyond the lies of false religions? Lies prosper because they are often more superficially attractive than the truth. What price the truth?"
Finally, the thing that is so sad about all the strife that has propagated on this blog, is that there are virile forces out there determined to destroy the people of the faith, whether Jewish or Christian, and yet here we are as a group that has come together because of mutual concerns about our future, and we are arguing with each other on a daily basis over trivial stuff. That is very sad.
Here is a link which will tell you what our enemy thinks of us:
http://www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/page19.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/4jyfj5
After reading it, I'd beg all here to reconsider who the "enemy " really is, and "hint"- it ain't Dorothy and it ain't Joyce!
Maryanne
Memo to both Dorothy & Joyce:
ReplyDeleteLike you've said on previous threads, Dorothy, "I'm bored."
Well, WE are bored with all of the back and forth arguments (ad nauseum) between you two that is solving nothing!
Why don't you two exchange e-mail addresses if you insist on continuing your debate?
Please, let's all move on and get back to business and the purpose of this blog, which is exposing the New Age Movement.
Each one of us has our own long-held deeply routed religious convictions that should be respected. To my knowledge, Joyce - no one has ever been successful in converting anyone on this blog over to "their" side.
I can just imagine a new person checking out this blog for the first time - reading a few posts - and deciding, "I am so out of here."
The Christians and Jews have not concluded their differences. So how can they fight a war against Lucifer? Will you all still be fighting with each other while standing in line to recieve your demon of lucifer. Not to different then children.
ReplyDeleteChristians- Jews believe in the al-mighty, al-powerful, al-everything G-d. They do not see the need for in between person, an interpreter. And anything else but G-d is Idolatry
Jews- Christians believe that G-d sent them an interpreter, a bridge,an interceeder,probably rightly so as they were not allowed to even read the Torah, without becoming a convert. G-d has given them what they need, Jesus, to come to G-d, So lets let G-d sort out the details and stop fighting with each other. Have respect for G-d, he has a plan, stand together and fight Lucifer for G-d's Sake. How can we all be so cruel to G-d? How can we allow Lucifer to make us to be separated?
Stop attacking each other you only give Lucifer more power. We must stand together christian and jew or all will be lost.
YS
Constance:
ReplyDeleteThe list of New Agers, and OWG is getting so long.Their organizations so intermingled, is it possible to get a list of them all? I simply do not have the time to go through every single post of your archives and sort out who is and who is not. Or does anyone have a current list, that they can share.
YS
ysbeamer@aol.com
To YS (10:29 AM):
ReplyDeleteIf I may be so bold as to try to answer your question . . .
If Constance and Dorothy have been studying the New Age Movement for 26 plus years, there are obviously too many complexities in this world-wide "network of networks" to sum it up in a single post or provide a single "list."
There are no short cuts to this research. Events are moving so fast, it takes remaining alert to news and changes on an almost daily basis.
The good news is that this blog can help you in your journey.
anon (10:44)
ReplyDeleteTo my thinking, If we are to work as a team, and grow this team against this enemy we must at least have a list. We cannot all go anywhere if we are all starting at the beginning. And yes research is necc. for all. This is not an attempt to short cut research, it is an attempt to keep everyone especially newcomers on the same page, per say. Otherwise when we speak to others, not on this blog we sound like conspiracy theorists, and fear mongers.
YS
I find is so ironic and amusing that there is such an outcry and objection (by many Liberals & Gays) to Barack Obama's choice of Rick Warren (Senior Pastor of Saddleback Church) to deliver the invocation at Obama's inauguration.
ReplyDeleteIf those "clueless" people only KNEW that both Barack Obama and Rick Warren are more on the "same page" with their New World Order goals and agenda than people can ever imagine!!!
To YS (11:00 AM):
ReplyDeleteWell, you can start by reading Constance's two best selling books: "The Hidden Dangers Of The Rainbow" (1983) and "A Planned Deception: The Staging of a New Age Messiah" (1986). (That second book lists many names and organizations.)
Also, Constance is currently writing a book about Javier Solana.
LISTS
ReplyDeleteIf only there was such a list or one could be made up, it would have been so much easier. Unfortumately the movement is huge, and many people who are in it don't even know what it is.
Let's say you start with the basics - that it is a push for one world government and one world religion, that there is definitely an occult connection and that it is a network rather than a pyramid structure.
It then helps to know how Nazi and communist networks operated with front groups. These are mentioned because they are in the recent past, although there is a long history behind that kind of operation. Ordinary individuals don't know they exist at the time of their operation.
There were lists of names already in 1980. Constance gave such lists in her first two books. It's where I first heard about Lucis Trust and other major organizations. When I started looking at the movement in the early '80s, there were lists for the spiritual and cultural change organizations. There were the Spiritual Community Guidebooks with their lists. There were other compilations.
In the later '80s, the Whole Again Resource Guide had 1,500 listings in its first resource book and 3,000 in its revised edition. There is a Whole Again website, but there have been no new books.
http://www.wholeagain.com/home.html
The informative thing here is that the groups are divided into categories.
There are other lists on the net such as
http://www.experiencefestival.com/
Now it gets difficult. Constance is a groundbreaker in that you here find for the first time the names of political organizations involved in change to the New Age. You can learn about the World Business Academy in a comment, for instance, but you must go to the links there to find who they network with. You can find the lists connected with Lucis Trust's New Group of World Servers, but since most of these appear as neutral organizations and few people know what Lucis Trust is, explaining the connection to others is very difficult as no major media speaks about these things.
While academics are writing about the organizations involved in New Age "spirituality", no one has put together any kind of comprehensive list on the political end. Perhaps this is because there can be no direct link between an overtly occult organization.
For instance at this blog you will read much about the UN connected Alliance of Civilizations. It would take one researcher to cover what they are doing in its entirety.
Until now I've only been speaking of organizations. Individuals involved are something else. One individual may be involved in several New Age organizations, but it is hard to know which are very powerful and which are letterhead operations. Solana? Rick Warren? Obama? Rabbi Lerner? Barbara Marx Hubbard? All have New Age connections but may not be connected to each other. I give this as an example.
This might be why a lot of people just throw their hands in the air and depend on their religious beliefs.
Oh you can find many websites which say they are giving the hidden information on the New Age movement. Determining how valid that information is can be hard.
What should a person new to the information do? Take some time to do your own research and start to evaluate what you see. After all of these years I have yet to find anyone that can be trusted more than Constance. Don't start talking to others about the movement until you can put together a paragraph that summarizes what you've found and that you can document.
That's enough for now. Other people have other ideas I'm sure.
Dorothy
anonymous 11:16
ReplyDeleteI believe this is just another trick to confuse and deceive evangelicals and get them on board the Obama fast track to the NWO.
I know many evangelicals who think Rick Warren is just super dooper rather than the Super Duper. The very strict Assembly of God church that I attend in the late 1990's used his book "A purpose driven Life" in a 40 day long prayer seminar. I know other conservative evangelical churches that have done the same. I'm sure the people in my own church don't understand his connections to the New Age either, because they don't understand that contemplative prayer is linked to the New Age.
LISTS
ReplyDeleteSome of you might wonder why I gave links to New Age groups as put together by New Agers. Several reasons. I use their material because when speaking to others it shows what they believe, not what I believe about them.
I gave a link to Experience Festival because it shows the extent of the "spirituality" movement that is considered acceptable to New Age believers while Judaism and Christianity continue to be criticized in the major media.
Keep in mind that the push for one world government goes with the push for one world religion as they want to make a level playing field in all countries and communities. Allegiances to Judaism and Christianity get in the way of allegiance to government. "Spirituality" is alright. Morality is not acceptable in their world as the government will determine what is moral. Take a quick look at the things at Experience Festival and ask what is the moral code for the community that they support. None as far as I can see.
All of this is explained in the books Constance has written. I am commenting here for those who haven't read those books.
Dorothy
LISTS
ReplyDeleteI found Reninventing Jesus Christ to be VERY informative. It is free on line. www.reinventingjesuschrist.com The author used to be in the New Age movement.
'Reinventing Jesus Christ' by Warren Smith.
ReplyDeleteI also read Constance's books years ago....excellent
To Young Grasshopper (1:12 PM)
ReplyDeleteYes, Rick Warren - with his very smooth, charming, low-key, positive approach - has deceived many people as to his real goals and agenda.
Regarding your comment on him being the "Super Duper" - I am tempted to refer to him as "the super duper pooper scooper" - as he expects everyone to buy into his b.s. (LOL)
Seriously, we all need to continue to pray for the entire world - as "they shall deceive the very elect."
Dorothy, you definitely have rabbinic credentials.
ReplyDeleteI too studied Judaism, and in fact converted to it when I came out of a shocking illness caused by Kundalini Yoga in the New Age. Christian Churches had been bad to me, so I wanted a monotheistic religion without the "church".
But my Reform congregation was just ethnic Unitarianism, and I'd had enough of that, too, from my parents and their friends. So I left the "ethnic Unitarians" and went back to the Catholic church which had been my college-age church, but in Seattle they had become MORE than New Age--involved in some psychological manipulations that are beyond even words to name.
Recently my husband and I have traveled l00 miles on Saturdays to attend a Messianic congregation, where the "gentile" leader is very learned (he thinks we are all lost members of the Tribes. I am probably one of the few there who is actually a "lost tribe" member, due to genealogical studies related to my two rare blood diseases, and my husband is Jewish on his father's side).
At this time I am unable to travel l00 miles to services, and I am becoming convinced that Paul the Apostle may be right that we should not Judaize. I have started attending a tiny Plymouth Brethren remnant group which meets down the street, walking distance. Women don't get to talk in church but boy do they talk afterwards! Anyway, a more loving group than most.
I pray Jesus to return soon and solve these wrangles, which go on not only here but on the larger scale. Only He cn settle this mess.
I ask all to await His coming in love.
And by all means expose every facet of the New Age. I know its slippery slope from the inside.
Mariel
Dorothy,
ReplyDeleteJust one little point....I don't want to convert you because I don't believe Jews stop being Jews when they know Yeshua and I can't "make you know Yeshua" so that's not exactly what I said, I shared about Yeshua because you brought Len on to discuss.. but the conversation started with my Chabad comments which are very apropos on a blog about New Age practices..
I don't think the Chabad group is all the innocent. You might want to take a closer look:
This is just as bad as any other kind of mysticism:
http://tiny.cc/9khwl
I'm not picking on them cause they're Jewish. I'm picking on them because it's spiritual Bablyon what they are presenting. Just this one passage is such nonsense:
"The view of the Ari is a third opinion to the effect that keter is somewhere in between Or Ein Sof and the sefirot, part of both, and bridging or linking them. In his view, keter is the "lowest" level of the Ein Sof as well as the very root or source of the sefirot. This issue relates to the disputed issue whether the term Ein Sof itself has reference to the actual Essence and Being of G-d as He is in Himself or to G-d qua First Cause."
If we defend this kind of thing on this blog, then why criticize all the other forms of mysticism.
This was the original topic that started the controversy and then you said Judaism was 4000 years old and I corrected you. Len actually agreed with me if you read his comments.. even though he didn't agree with me on much else...and then he basically attacked faith in Yeshua, which I wasn't willing to let go by. All the others on the blog who want peace at any cost...sorry.
Having said that, I agree with Maryanne about the spiritual battle. Most of us know who the real enemy is, it's not flesh and blood but the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realms. It's always good to be reminded...so thanks Maryanne..for keeping things in perspective!
Shalom,
Joyce
Here's an idealistic website-
ReplyDeletehttp://uniteddiversity.com/
From there I found
http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Money
The Open Money Project
"Definition
"The open money project aims to create the global infrastructure, tools, governance mechanisms and platforms that will give communities the capacity to create their own currencies with just a few clicks and thereby liberate their wealth potential. This will become the most important evolution for society in the coming years." (http://www.gifthub.org/2008/03/open-money-meta.html)
[edit]Context
"Money is making a fundamental evolutionary step into community currencies. Conventional money as we know it has a built in architecture that leads to scarcity, centralization, concentration, secrecy, proprietarization. This conventional monetary system is not appropriate to dealing with today's global systemic challenges (harmonizing local and global needs, creating ecological sustainability, enabling the information economy, leveraging the open source paradigm, etc). Just as there are now millions of media outlets today, currencies will follow this same evolution by shifting from centralized authoritative models to distributed ones that allow better sustainability, distribution, transparency, and regulation mechanisms. Every community (associations, companies, cities, regions, states, professions, interest groups, etc) will be able to create their own currencies for their own marketplace.
The open money project aims to create the global infrastructure, tools, governance mechanisms and platforms that will give communities this capacity. With just a few clicks, they will be able to create their currency(ies) and thereby liberate their wealth potential. This will become the most important evolution for society in the coming years." (http://openmoney.ning.com/)
[edit]Description
“Open money is a means of exchange freely available to all. Any community, any association - indeed, any body - can have their own money. Open money is synonymous with LETS - an invitation to come inside and play, as in open door and open house; collaboration as in open hand and open for all; attitude as in open mind. The purpose of the open money project is to bring together and organize the people and resources necessary for the development and propagation of open money everywhere. The open money project is a work in progress - a continuation of almost 20 years of LETSystem development all over the world, two community way projects in Canada using smart cards, the Japan open money project, and, most recently, a community currencies server program, cybercredits. The intent is to develop an open money kernel - a core set of text files, administration tools and software systems that are sufficiently coherent and clear that further elaboration of the set derives from the core concepts themselves, rather than from the particular agendas of the originating writers and contributors. The open money kernel is to have a life of its own. ' (http://www.openmoney.org/
How does open money work?
You treasure what you measure, and you measure what you treasure. Open money provides the tools to implement this maxim. What should we be treasuring in our culture and on our planet that we so far have no way to measure?
Throughout history, wealth acknowledgment evolved by becoming more abstract and less substantial. Open money follows this same pattern by being a meta-currency system, not just a new single kind of money. It enables the creation of many new types of money. It puts currency creation directly in the hands of communities so that they can create wealth-acknowledgment systems for tracking all types of wealth--tradable, measurable, and acknowledgeable--and so that they can tailor the tracking to fit their precise needs.
Open money works by providing a unified platform for the interchange of all these different kinds of wealth acknowledgment, just the same way that the Internet provides a unified platform for the interchange of all kinds of information. Just as the great shift of the Internet was in not specifying what kind of data can flow across it (unlike the phone network), the great shift of open money lies in not dictating which new form of wealth-acknowledgment people should use. Instead it provides the basic building blocks for communities to create new types of wealth-acknowledgment systems themselves.
Right off the bat, communities can use open money for simple things like Local Exchange Trading Systems (LETS), Time Banks, barter networks, carbon-emissions trading programs, baby-sitting co-ops, reputation tracking systems, business loyalty programs, etc. But the interesting stuff will happen when communities apply their creativity to invent new currencies that solve wealth-acknowledgment problems we don't even have names for yet." (http://openmoney.info/sophia/index.html) "
etc.
I can't see how something like that would work between localities.
Mariel,
ReplyDeleteThe Judaizers were a bunch of Jewish mystics. Unlike what most people think, they were not just Jews who observed Torah. That is a source of much confusion about Paul. One of the things being discussed in great depth today by numerous theologians is the meaning of the expression "works of law" which is not necessarily the same thing as observing Torah. The bottom line of Paul to oversimplify a very complex issue is that he was saying that people are not saved by circumcision and similar things that were considered important to be accepted in a particular sect of Second Temple Judaism.
That's a great oversimplification of the subject. The issue is trying to make everyone a "lost tribe" or a Jew. The issue is how many called out assemblies does God have? One or two. Someone NEVER had to be a physical descendant of Jacob to attach themselves to Israel. The idea is to attach yourself to the one true God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob...but the crux of what Paul was saying in the book of Galatians is that salvation is by faith, not by circumcision. So is follow Torah bad? Heavens no! says Paul in Romans.. It just does not save you!
Under the law is another expression that people confuse. It means under the penalty of death that the law imposes. If Yeshua saves us are we free to go out now and break the 10 Commandments? No!
We are saved by faith in His finished work, but once we are saved do we want to sin against God? No!
So Torah is good and holy, but it never saved Ancient Israel and it won't save us. It's faith in the God who delivered Israel from Egypt by His strong right hand, and the same God who delivers us from sin but the blood of the Lamb, Yeshua the Messiah.
It's funny that you chose a Brethren Assembly, because their doctrine sounds 180 degrees from where you were previously going and interpret Paul very literally on things like "women should not talk in the assembly" but total miss the context and much of what he says. They do dig into the Tanakh a bit more than some of the more seeker kinds of churches out there but they don't think any of it applies to them.. It's just stories about Ancient Israel.
The Brethren are very strongly the opposite of someone who sees the unity of the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelations and therefore make strong distinction as to what is for "the church and what is for "Israel". If you had seen my much earlier posts, you might have notices that the word "church" is the same as the word qahal in Hebrew, so there was always a "called out assembly" . It didn't just start in the book of Acts, if you translate the word ekklesia with consistency. Don't know if this makes sense, but I hope it's helpful. .
If you get a chance read Daniel Gruber's "Copernicus and the Jews" . It will explain a lot of the translation language issues that throw people off in the interpretation of Scripture, particular the Apostolic Scriptures.
Blessings,
Joyce
I am new, almost entirely to blogging and fairly new to fighting the NWO.
ReplyDeleteI find Constance and this site of all that I have checked out, to be the best in information, well-learned and passionate.
However I must say as someone new to this blog, I am so overwhelmed by some of the arguements and such that I did begin to wonder.
I spent the better part of the day reading what appeared to be personal fights when what I came here for was information, fellowship, and acceptance. Secure in the fact that all those here are working toward the same goal - to defend ourselves and those we love, against the coming catastrophe.
I now find myself intimidated to post, second guesssing what I might say, or contribute and that's not even beginning to mention that I don't know how to set up a proper account. In addition, being new to this truth, I don't begin to have the knowledge or background that most here seem to have. It's intimidating at best.
Despite my shortcomings, and in adequecies in this area, I have been unable to keep quiet about that which I have discovered about the NWO and the New Age Movement. Mostly to get criticized, marginalized, ostrecized and called names. Many in my own family have rejected me for my outspoken and "conspiracy theory, negative, high-and-mighty-Christian, outrageous" ideas.
I love this site, the real information I find here, the depth and knowledge of the people who post here.
I'm planning on sticking around so I apologize ahead of time for not understanding the nuances of it all, please forgive me.
I happen to have picked up a book while on vacation this summer, it was really miraculous how it happened. It's titled "Dare To Believe!" by May Rowland published in 1966 by Unity. I thought it was just another Christian book when I bought it.
It sat in a box with other books until recently. Just after I watched for the first time, Constances video (Radio Liberty seminar) on the New Age movement and Caryn M's video as well. I thank God that I had seen the work of those two first, or I might have been misled. It has lots of scripture in it, references to Jesus and alot of the NA terms like meditation, seekers of the light etc.
Also, I currently attend an Assembly of God, we recently finished a study of the gifts of The (Holy) Spirit. Can anyone tell me their take on this with Biblical background? I grew up Baptist, which is cessessionist, they believe the gifts died off with the apostles. This is a big division amongst Christians, some strongly in support, some strongly against and both sides with what most would consider good God-fearing people. I loved the idea that God, through the Holy Spirit had equipped me in some special way for the work He requires of me, but I have that nagging thing in my head that harkens back to my younger days that says, Beware! So much of it seems similar to the New Age teachings and yet we know Satans' greatest tactic is to take a bit of truth and mix it with a lie. He started it in Eden and it still works sucessfully today. It seems odd to believe that Satan and demons have powers to manifest in this world and that God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and angelic beings do not. I am not talking of stigmata or other such "miraculous" signs, but rather those things specifically mentioned as Spiritual gifts in the Bible, like speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy etc.
Thanks. I love most of what all of you have to say.
I also apologize for being long winded.
Suzette
Hi Suzette,
ReplyDeleteWelcome to our world. Don't be intimidated. Some of us just have really strong personalities and opinions but your presence is valued and you don't have to apologize for anything.
No fear of being called a conspiracy theorist here. That's one thing you can be thankful for. I don't think anyone has been accused of that yet to my knowledge, so I doubt you'll be. Thanks for sharing
Blessings,
Joyce
Joyce
ReplyDeleteThanks. I can't tell you how uplifting it is to know I'm not losing my mind or heaven forbid, in need of some psychotropic drug to stabilize me!
Sometimes it feels so surreal. Every minute of every day there is some new thing to consider, follow, avoid, share (not that many want to or will hear it).
Suzette
Suzette,
ReplyDeleteNo you're not crazy. Things are moving quickly.I think we all feel that.. some of us just talk about current events. Some of us, like myself , talk about the Bible and current events because it's hard to disconnect the two, so that might look a little confusing at first. You happened to come into the middle of a big controversy. It's not always like that..
You are quite sane and what you're seeing is really there so just keep looking up. Your redemption draws near..
Blessings,
Joyce
Hi, Suzette (3:43 PM):
ReplyDeleteWelcome aboard.
If there is anything any of us can help you with, please do not hesitate to ask.
As far as some of the arguments, like any blog "family" - we're a bit dysfunctional at times - but basically, everyone's heart is in the right place.
I too cannot disconnect the world events from the Bible. However I got chastized by a family member (recently ordained) who asked what did the world events have to do with my ministry for The Lord? He found it all too negative. He loved my passion (probably why I like it here) but did not like my approach or see the relevance in things like 9/11 or toxic foods to Christian ministry. I thought of the scripture (I'm horrible at knowing the exact verse) that says to concentrate on whatever is lovely and beautiful and perhaps he was right? Nevertheless, I felt driven to keep pursuing this stuff. I couldn't get enough. I guess there's a limit? But it seems with things getting so close that if all we did was "shout from the rooftops" about what is happening we would be on the right track.
ReplyDeleteI first came into all this when I found out the truth about 9/11. It absolutely amazes me how many people still believe the official story, and that's old news in these cirles. Once I got 9/11 that led to all the stuff killing us in the environment (like aspartame and fluoride) and the eugenics and that led to the discovery of the New Age movement. I've always loved the book of Revelation, whether or not I understood it.
Later, must attend to my worldly obligations (does anyone know of housekeepers that will work for free for those fighting the NWO? LOL
Thanks for all the welcomes.
Suzette
SKIP IT JOYCE
ReplyDeleteYou and I are never going to be friends. I neither like nor trust you at this point. I've had enough of your tactics, manipulations and outright lies. You, in my opinion, are not a good person. You are so full of false pride that only God can change you.
It is my belief that anyone who can trust you can easily be taken in by the manipulations of the New Age movement as they are not very discerning and can be used.
I am here to fight the New Age movement. I cannot spend my time arguing your cause or trying to correct every bit of nonsense that you post.
This is Connie's blog and if she allows you here, that is her business. She has never kicked anyone off.
I'm back to "Ignore Joyce" as I was for a very long time. Readers here have had a chance to learn what Judaism is about through what Len has posted. If they want more, they can contact him as he left his email address.
There will always be Christians so anxious to believe that Christianity must be proved by showing that Judaism is a false religion, that it died 2,000 years ago when Christianity took over. By the way, that is a New Age belief. New Agers believed that Judaism (Age of Aries) should have died 2,000 years ago when Christianity (Age of Pisces) came on to the picture. That Christianity was held back because it didn't die. Now both religions are to die in the name of the religion of the Age of Aquarius.
Well dear folks, Hitler believed that also. If you can't see the parallels with what is called by them Messianic Judaism, you are missing a big part of the New Age picture.
The slide toward Age of Aquarius thinking is already taking place in many Christian churches. I have no doubt Messianic Christians will follow. Through all of this Judaism will stay steady as God has promised.
Dorothy
THANKS EVERYONE
ReplyDeleteFOR INFO
YS
To Susette (4:42 PM):
ReplyDeleteRe: your "family member (recently ordained) who asked what did the world events have to do with my ministry for The Lord? He found it all too negative."
For openers . . .
You could ask him, "If you believe in the Bible and study Revelation, how can you NOT see that world events have EVERYTHING to do with your ministry for the Lord?"
And when Jesus return, all of those "negatives" will then become "positives."
Dorothy
ReplyDeleteIt is even more pronounced then that< I read comments on a baby that was born with tumor, it being removed, contained a foot and other parts, fetus un fetu, the comments were appalling as many blamed it on christian interbreeding, way to many for a common blog. Truely the new age thinking is becoming commonplace.
very disturbing.
YS
MURIEL & SUZETTE
ReplyDeleteI know you've been around for quite some time Muriel. I don't keep track of people, so you may be an old timer by now.
Suzette, I'm glad you found the blog. There is much to learn here from many knowledgeable people. We learn from each other.
Since you both mentioned religion, I'm just making this a joint response.
Judaism and Christianity are based on two things, our duty to God and our duty to our fellow man. Wherever you are taught religious beliefs, keep that in mind, and you do fine. All of the history and scripture are things we are to turn to if we need clarification. Knowledge of them is not an end in itself.
We are in difficult times as we are surrounded by liars, all supposedly doing their thing in our best interests. Because this is happening on such a grand scale, we almost have to go thru an awakening period from the sleep we have been put into by trusting the wrong sources. For whatever reason most people have never been awakened and until something happens to show how they have been deceived, their pride doesn't allow them to think they have been deceived.
What we are fighting goes beyond flesh and blood, but it certainly acts through flesh and blood, through people and organizations. If you're like me, you will probably be taken in more than once, trusting those who shouldn't be trusted. No one can know it all.
While knowing about the New Age movement can be a huge learning experience, the idea is to apply what you learn from the large scale in your private life, how you view new ideas, how you vote, how you determine what to trust in your reading material. It will help you learn what activities you want to use your time for. Learning helps you to take a stand when you are pressured into going along with someone's opinions.
While you may never have to take a stand on the European Union, you can learn how what is happening there affects the government in this country which may guide your vote and contributions.
The question of abortion or euthanasia may come up in your private life. The latter came up in mine when doctors tried to force euthanasia on our family because my husband had diabetic complications. Thank heavens I knew about the history of the euthanasia movement which is part of New Age.
Your religion will be your rock because as I said you will know your duty to God and your fellow man.
Dorothy
The New Age movement is manipulative, part truth and part lies. Lies should put your guard up.
Just in case anyone was wondering if there has been futher prep for the bottom to fall out - check the link
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/3v9rfa
Suzette - welcome aboard - and actaully the same for all who are new here - seems there are a few -
DouginMI
Suzette,
ReplyDeleteYou questioned whether the gifts of the Holy
Spirit were still being manifest today.
I say that the Holy Spirit is called the
Spirit of Truth many times, most significantly
by the Lord himself.
The truth is what's important.
If you have the Holy Spirit in you, then
you'll have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Prophesy is the first and foremost gift.
Revelations 19:10 tells us that the testimony
of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy.
I believe that the answer to your question is
that yes the gifts of the Holy Spirit are
happening now.
But it would seem that there is nothing more
important to God right now in history than
the spreading of the good news of Jesus
the Christ. Speaking in tongues is for
those who already believe. Healing is for
those who already believe.
But if people today demand a sign that's too
bad for them.
This may sound silly, but as far as miracles go,
it's a miracle that I, for one, am alive at all.
It's a miracle that I can breath or walk or
think at all, much less have my own small
business that sustains me.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
The Spirit of Truth is what the Kingdom of God
on earth right now is made of.
Read the Bible and don't worry about
the thousands of Bible commentaries.
Build your foundation on the solid rock.
_just my two cents
No need to wonder if we are living in the "end times" . . .
ReplyDeleteLas Vegas - biggest snow storm in 30 years
Snow in Malibu!!!
Spokane shut down with 17 inches of snow.
Chicago expecting 1 foot of snow.
New York City may get 6 inches.
To Suzette:
ReplyDeletePlease don't be intimated and please feel free to post -- I'm not running a secret society. Your insights are valuable and cogently stated.
Thank you for being here! I wish the personal attacks and bantering would stop also!
Constance
FYI
ReplyDeleteI don't consider correcting distorted information about Judaism and criticism of the person who posts it bantering. If that was so, we would call what we do bantering about the New Age movement.
bantering:
v. tr.
To speak to in a playful or teasing way.
v. intr.
To exchange mildly teasing remarks.
If someone distorts the religion I believe, they are attacking me. I would hope that every Christian feels the same way. That is the only way to protect the religions we have faith in. Do not let anyone get away with distorting what you believe in. New Age leaders distort Christianity and say it is really a pagan belief system and therefore everyone should go back to their pagan roots.
Dorothy
Joyce, I know only what I see about the Plymouth Brethren. Just went there because I know a couple who go and was invited. Liked their spirit.
ReplyDeleteDon't know much about them. But they contrast with all the other churches I've attended here or came in contact with through phone discussions. All the others have a serious New Age wound in them, or are anti-Israel. I have noted in my few contacts with the Lutherans (I know there is more than one sect of Lutherans) that they are anti-Israel. Very unlearned in their understanding of the current situation in Israel, the history of the Jewish/Palestinian conflict, etc. The Baptists are reading Rick Warren and the Episcopalians have the Alpha course, although the Episcopalians are much less New Age than the norm in America. The Grace Community Church joined the Vineyard mov't and has silly women prophesying and Benny Hinn enshrined. It's all too much--probably the Bretheren have something weird too.
My husband's father, an Orthodox Jew, fed his town during the depression and went bankrupt (he was the town storekeeper). The Christians did not do as much. I expect to find Ed Strauss in Heaven, if I make it there myself.
Suzette,
ReplyDelete“First I sought the gift, then I sought the Gifter.”
“If I have faith to move mountains, but have not love: I’m nothing.”
I believe in miracles, I’ve seen some, but how great is salvation? How great the CROSS?
“That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.”
That is miracle. It doesn’t come from rocks.
ANON 4:30pm Thanks
ReplyDeleteDorothy - Thanks. I loved your attempt at a list and summary. This is really helpful. I have studied some of this, but I haven't read any of the good books, I'm working on the one I mentioned earlier, the web is so vast and shocking, just when I think I have somewhat of a handle on it, something or someone new comes out with another zinger.
ANON 5:29pm - I tried for some time to make my case - that my ministry IS to use current events tied to Biblical prophecy and it got me no where. We emailed back and forth for a long time. Many questions I posed and issues I presented he just ignored. The last thing I got was his announcement for his ordainment. I wholeheartedly and honestly congratualated him but haven't heard from him since. I get similar reactions from others I have tried to warn / inform.
DouginMI - Thanks
Paul 5:58pm - Thanks. I still have that little voice that casts doubt for new things I've learned. I often joke that I grew up Baptist and have more baggage than American Airlines. It had it's good points but there's alot to overcome. Many denominations of Chrisianity believe similarly -that the gifts are gone and so any apparent manifestation of them is the "work of the devil". That could be taken as blasphemy, I hate to even say that. Some stuff is hard to let go of. With all this talk and move to be more intuned and powered up and such, and the work of so many Christians (like Osteen and Warren) having a New Age bent, I am afraid sometimes to embrace this "new" scriptural information.
However, I have thought that the scripture in Acts 2 of the first Pentecost (Joyce posted this) tells first of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by tongues and finally describes the sun and moon darkening, since we are in between those two events, I surmise that the gifts are still operational.
I do not have the gift of tongues but I've heard so many people criticize it, it does give me pause.
I have a friend who is a Muslim, she converted from Christianity, I asked her of their beliefs in some of these matters. They also believe in the antichrist (odd huh?) She described speaking in tongues as looking like someone under the influence of the Jin, special demons of fire according to the Islamic faith.
Anyway, I'm praying and trusting Yahweh and Yahshuah to guide me through the Holy Spirit. I for now love having discoverd some "special" talents to use for God's kingdom. I don't necessarily have any that I would or could offer as "proof" of God, I think that would be a dangerous place and precedent to get into.
I am a walking miracle as well. I thank God for that.
Constance - thank you.
Note on the digital vs. analog question. Analog channels take up much more bandwidth than the digital and at a lower quality. The space that will be freed up could potentially be sold or liscensed by the government (FCC). Additionally, in the same space that it takes to do one analog channel you can easily fit 10 standard def channels. Digital channels offer the ability to encrypt data, or potentionally offer data services beyond video. Any data (bits and bytes) could be included in the multiplex (MUX) as long as it doesn't exceed the allowed bandwidth.
Suzette
ANON 8:42pm
ReplyDeleteCould you please expound on the Alpha course. Our church just did one earlier this year.
Could someone please tell me how to have my name appear at the top of my post?
SETTERMEN - I love the miracles of God, of salvation. I'm glad you affirm you have seen a few, me too. I don't get the rocks reference, could you please explain.
Thanks,
Suzette
Emanuel talked directly to gov: source
ReplyDeleteDEEPER ROLE? | Pushed Jarrett for Senate seat
BY NATASHA KORECKI Federal Courts Reporter nkorecki@suntimes.com
(12/18/08)
President-elect Barack Obama's incoming chief of staff Rahm Emanuel had a deeper involvement in pressing for a U.S. Senate seat appointment than previously reported, the Sun-Times has learned. Emanuel had direct discussions about the seat with Gov. Blagojevich, who is is accused of trying to auction it to the highest bidder.
Emanuel talked with the governor in the days following the Nov. 4 election and pressed early on for the appointment of Valerie Jarrett to the post, sources with knowledge of the conversations told the Sun-Times. There was no indication from sources that Emanuel brokered a deal, however.
A source with the Obama camp strongly denied Emanuel spoke with the governor directly about the seat, saying Emanuel only spoke with Blagojevich once recently to say he was taking the chief of staff post.
But sources with knowledge of the investigation said Blagojevich told his aides about the calls with Emanuel and sometimes gave them directions afterward. Sources said that early on, Emanuel pushed for the appointment of Jarrett to the governor and his staff and asked that it be done by a certain date.
At least some of the conversations between Emanuel and Blagojevich were likely caught on tape, sources said.
After Jarrett took herself out of the running in mid-November, Emanuel submitted a list of suitable names to the governor's camp that didn't include her name.
Emanuel, who has refused to comment on the issue, is not accused of wrongdoing.
In portions of conversations released in a criminal complaint against Blagojevich, he can be heard complaining that Obama wouldn't give anything in return for a Jarrett appointment.
CNN Meteorologist Chad Myers had never bought into the notion that man can alter the climate and the Vegas snowstorm didn’t impact his opinion. Myers, an American Meteorological Society certified meteorologist, explained on CNN’s Dec. 18 “Lou Dobbs Tonight” that the whole idea is arrogant and mankind was in danger of dying from other natural events more so than global warming.
ReplyDelete“You know, to think that we could affect weather all that much is pretty arrogant,” Myers said. “Mother Nature is so big, the world is so big, the oceans are so big – I think we’re going to die from a lack of fresh water or we’re going to die from ocean acidification before we die from global warming, for sure.”
Myers is the second CNN meteorologist to challenge the global warming conventions common in the media. He also said trying to determine patterns occurring in the climate would be difficult based on such a short span.
Suzie,
ReplyDeleteTo have your name show on post - select the "Name/URL" button, type your name in the Name window (disregard the URL (optional) window and then select either publish your comment or preview.
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Joyce,
You have ignored most of my comments just as Dorothy said, while I have concentrated my messages on responding to you.
I say that no true Jew would believe in Jesus and you quote Acts to contradict me but the New Testament is not accepted by Jews any more than the Qur’an. Don’t you know that?
Are there Jewish apostates? Certainly; just as there are Jewish thieves like Madoff. The Bible talks even of evil Jewish kings. I reject Communism though Karl Marx was a Jew. I respect Christianity but missionaries like you force me to express criticisms for which I have to apologize to good Christians; such as my opinion that Jesus himself would have rejected Christianity.
Joyce accuses me of “taking canned answers from antimissionary websites like Rabbi Singer's,” byt she is a pot calling the kettle black. I have yet to see an original idea from her that I have not seen many times before from other apologists/missionaries; nothing but standard talking points.
Joyce said she “received no response on that from Len, concerning Isaiah 53,” but I wrote a very comprehensive analysis of Isaiah 53 proving it, like the rest of Isaiah, is about God’s servant Israel. Joyce has completely ignored my message and I can understand why. Not a single word! Nothing; nada, zilch!
Joyce said that “97% of the people on this blog believe that Yeshua is God, hands down,” and that is undoubtedly true. But 99.99% of the people were pagans in Abraham’s day. Did that stop him from proclaiming monotheism?
Judaism, being STRICTLY monotheistic, cannot consider worship of any but the One and only living God. For the record, the following are Maimonides’ 13 Principles of Judaism:
1. I firmly believe that the Creator, blessed be His Name (IFBTTCBBHN), is the Creator and Ruler of all created beings, and that He ALONE has made, does make, and ever will make all things.
2. IFBTTCBBHN is ONE; that there is no oneness in any form like His; and that He alone was, is, and will forever be our G-d.
3. IFBTTCBBHN is not corporeal, that no bodily accidents apply to Him; and that there exists nothing whatever that resembles Him.
4. IFBTTCBBHN was the First and will be the Last.
5. IFBTTCBBHN is the ONLY One to whom it is proper to address our prayers, and that we must not pray to anyone else.
6. I firmly believe that the words of the prophets are true.
7. I firmly believe that the prophecy of Moses, our teacher, may he rest in peace, was true; and that he was the chief of the prophets, both of those who preceded him and of those that followed him.
8. I firmly believe that the whole Torah that we now possess is the same that was given to Moses our teacher, may he rest in peace.
9. I firmly believe that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will be no other Torah given by the Creator, blessed be His Name.
10. IFBTTCBBHN knows all the actions and thoughts of humans, as it is said, "It is He who fashions the hearts of them all, He who notes all their deeds."
11. IFBTTCBBHN rewards those who keeps His commands and punishes those who transgress His commands.
12. I firmly believe in the coming of the Messiah; and although he may tarry, I daily wait for his coming.
13. I firmly believe that there will be a revival of the dead at a time which will please the Creator, blessed and exalted be His name forever.
For your salvation I hope, O Lord. I hope, O Lord , for your salvation. O Lord, for your salvation I hope.
Len
I want to call everyone's attention to Kabbalah. I mentioned it to Dorothy, who wasn't interested in discussing it, which is fine, but I think it's rather important because we see someone like Heinrich Eliyahu Benedikt of Jerusalem Academy deeply involved in this.
ReplyDeleteMy theory is that it is mysticism which will be the glue for the New Age religion or the One Word Religion.
I'm posting another link from Chabad organization which is respected by some, not all in Judaism:
This particular one is about reincarnation.
http://tiny.cc/OVcwX
Here's another one that mentions Baal Shem Tov which Dorothy mentioned on a previous blog in a positive light:
http://www.inner.org/topics/gilgulim.htm
http://tinyurl.com/3z3ka9
When I read this site, it sounds like it's pantheistic:
God is all and all is God is very similar to what we find in Hinduism.
The fellow on the site studied with the Lubivitchers( Chabad):
http://www.inner.org/about/rav.php
As you will note he teaches in Israel and spreads this terrible teaching all over the world.
Now Dorothy will think I am getting on her case, but I'm not. I sincerely believe that this is the most dangerous kind of deception that people are seduced into.. It is eating from the "tree of good and evil".
Mysticism can be found in Islam in the sufi branch, in Christianity in all Eastern religions etc. I am bringing this out to prove my theory, that mysticism will be the glue that unites the religions.
Now most of us associate reincarnation with Hinduism..not Judaism, but it is interesting to note that Kabbalists believe in reincarnations.
Read this article by Heinrich Eliyahu Benedikt and you will see what he says:
http://tiny.cc/EW2Ro
We may write him off as a whacko, but he is teaching Kabbalah and saying things like this:
"That is why all great masters of East and West - knowing human nature at its very best -
have taught us the necessity of self-discovery and meditation as an indispensable
requirement for the attainment of the true goal of life."
He talks about Kabbalah and the sephirot in the article but you have to scroll down.. It's towards the bottom. He also says this:
"The best of educators in history have been the great sages and Zadikim of all traditions,
They not only have explored the depth of their soul and the peaks of spirit, thus having
attained an unfailing understanding of the impact of human nature, but also the
experience of downfalls and success in their struggle to overcome their lower nature
(ego) and get established in the Divine. Hence by their victory they have become true, yet
humble and patient examples of their teaching. "
The expression" Zadikim " is speaking of righteous ones, so the righeous ones of any or all traditions...i.e the Sufis, the Yogis, the Kabbalists, etc, etc. You get the idea.
Here is an extremely simple article on the impact of Kabbalah/mysticism on Judaism:
http://tinyurl.com/3v4p8o
This is by a Jew who practices Judaism.
That site links directly to this site, called My Jewish Learning and has a section on Kabbalah and Mysticism:
http://tiny.cc/TNc07
This article talks about the influence of Kabbalah in the Jewish Seminaries:
http://tinyurl.com/3skbyx
Again, these articles are by Jews, not me picking on anyone, so I urge you all to read this carefully so you understand the origins of some of these practices that will undoubtedly be part of "Mystery Babylon". It's interesting to note that Bablyon is where God took Abraham from, so when Judah was sent back there in exile one must ask what practices might have been learned in exile that were then "mixed" with Torah. While Kabbalah really develops later, the roots can be traced back to Babylon.
Babel means "confusion".
I will do some more research on this subject and would appreciate any help from those of you on the blog who are interested in researching this subject. It will be very interesting to see how the ultimate Tower of Babel is rebuilt with esoteric, mystical practices from the various religions.
In the Bible God warns Israel "not to mix". A lot of the teaching in Torah is about this subject...the question is, did we "listen and obey"?
Joyce
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Rick,
You said, "'Another religion' includes Messianic Jews who have, in the eyes of the lawmakers,
'forfeited their Judaism' and 'become Christian' - even if that ethnic Jewish person
keeps Torah."
Let me clue you in. Christians don't "keep Torah."
Len
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Paul,
You said, "Joyce has never instigated anyone against Judaism. What a horrible lie. Joyce is not an instigator at all. Why do you throw slander at those with whom you disagree?"
I will not call her an instigator but, what is just as bad, is what she unquestionably is: a missionary to Jews. She is like the snake in Genesis who, by deception, got Eve to eat the forbidden apple.
I began responding to her in a friendly manner but she got the bit in her teeth and is unrelenting in her missionary advocacy. If she quits proselytizing I will stop responding to her lies.
Len
Len
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear William,
You criticized Dorothy and wrote, "Christianity is in our minds and findings, is Judaism."
But Joyce has been criticizing Christianity in her messages to us; though I am sure it is a "tongue-in-cheek" missionary tactic. For example she wrote: “that traditional Christianity has taken the Jewishness out of the gospels, which has put greater obstacles in the path of Jews seeking, but in spite of that today, by the work of the Ruach HaKodesh, many Jews are coming to know Yeshua.”
Who is more arrogant than a Christian who defines Judaism, in Christian terms, as a religion that worships Jesus??? Isn't it up to Jews to decide who is Jewish?
Rabbi Joseph Soleveitchik, ZT”L, has written that the Jewish people is bound by covenant at two levels--the covenant of faith and the covenant of destiny. (also called the covenant of Egypt and the covenant of Sinai.) --- In the Holocaust all Jews learned that their fate was one. --- A Jew that shares this experience need not share any of the values or purposes of the Jewish people in order to be Jewish.
The covenant of destiny [however] reflects chosen, voluntary existence for the purpose of the realization of Jewish values and Jewish purpose in history. --- Living out the covenant of destiny implies living a Jewish way of life, a search for Jewish expression in all areas of existence. Commitment to the covenant of destiny involves creation and development of the heritage -- not only preserving it. Thus the disagreements between groups can be understood as ‘competition’ to realize the covenant as destiny.
Rabbi Soloveitchik ruled that Orthodox Jews share the covenant of fate with all Jews. Therefore they have all the obligations to other Jews -- not least to accept them -- that flow from such shared fate. While there are significant and fundamental disagreements over destiny and values, Soloveitchik suggests that these differences be argued out in the framework of shared community rather than rejecting the other as the enemy; someone outside the camp.
Rabbi Greenberg extends the model by suggesting that a movement is legitimate if it, and the Jews within it, chose the covenant of fate. This includes Conservative, Reconstructionist, Reform and even many secular Jews. It excludes such groups as Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews, though they may be Jewish as individuals, because the group disassociates itself from Jewish fate by joining Christianity.
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Dorothy,
You wrote: "I will give you all the Biblical reasons to prove that Yeshua is Messiah."
As long as you keep telling lies about the Jewish Bible I will keep telling the truth about you and your lies.
And you further said: "Don't pull the anti-semite card because I love Israel."
You may love Israel but, if you really loved Jews, you would stop proselytizing and accept us as we are; faithfully pure monotheists.
Stop trying to baptize us.
Len
Here is a Kabbalah Center in Israel:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.tzfat-kabbalah.org
From their own website they are saying the growth of this is very widespread, so it's not a small isolated thing.
This article is the most interesting, which seems to agree with my theory, that Kabbalah was developed in Babylon:
http://www.kabbalah-sefirot.com/
Every time Israel goes into exile, it brings with them elements of the exile. Exile in the Bible is definitely a punishment from God. Just like Israel adopted the cuisine of their host culture, they also adopted the spirituality of the host culture. This is one of the great problems of exile. What do we bring back with us.
Abraham brought back Hagar, so we know all the trouble that caused. Rachel stole the family idols from her father Laban...The Israelites in Egypt brought the golden calf..etc. In Babylon, Israel brought back "confusion". Thus you see the Second Temple period looking very different from the reign of King David for example.. as you read the Gospels. Not saying King David was perfect. We know he wasn't, but his heart was for God.. We see this in the Psalms..
Anyway, how is this relevant to the New Age and the Endtimes? Very. Spend some time on Jerusalem Academy's website:
http://tinyurl.com/3fdcvl
For those who are new hear, HE Benedikt is part German , part Jewish, a teacher of Kabbalah, who is extremely well-connected to the high level New Agers, and has a long proposition for peace in Jerusalem and the building of the 3rd Temple..Nothing prophetic there, is there?
Look at who he's promoting and what he says:
"B) Within Muslim society: Like all frozen traditions and dead institutionalized religions so also Islam is in deep need of renewal and spiritualization. A transition from the exoteric fundamentalism of cemented Shari’a towards a spiritual esoteric approach of Islam after the living spirit of Sufism (Tasawwuf) is needed. Only such an approach can lead the thirsting soul on the path of Ma’arifa, God-Realization, Fana and Baqa, Self-denial and spiritual rebirth, granting profound inner peace and consolation, as well as a growing independence from outer circumstances, religious rites, symbols and claims.
This work is led by competent Sheiks and Imams who are well established in divine truth and compassion, like Sheikh Abdul Aziz Buchari, Ibrahim el Hawa and Sheikh Minasra; "
All of the "frozen traditions" can be liberated by this mystical path which will ultimate create the false oneness.
Someone said earlier, there is a "false prophet as well as an antimessiah". I'm not suggesting it's Benedikt, although his middle name means "Elijah" and the Bible says Elijah will come before the day of the Lord:
Mal. 4:5 ¶ “Behold, I am going to send you aElijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Is he trying to pass himself off as "an Elijah" ? I don't know, but his name is so interesting..elements of Nazism "Heinrich" then the name of the prophet, Elijah and Benedikt which is the name of our current Pope..Wonder if that's his real name?
He epitomizes the spiritual confusion I am talking about but he's not alone.. There are others of course and I will post more on this important subject..
Joyce
LEN
ReplyDeleteI can say after many months of seeing her posts her main goal is to distract from research on the New Age movement, putting herself in the center of attention. This she does through these very long comments which have nothing to do with the New Age movement.
Constance has suggested she get her own blog, but then Joyce would not be able to disrupt information on the New Age movement. I hope you saw my comment which showed that her Messianic Christian beliefs parallel those of the New Age movement in their attack on authentic Judaism. This would account for her need to break the continuity of those posting information on the New Age movement.
Most Christians who post here or just read this material don't want to speak out against what they consider a fellow Christian. It takes courage to speak out against one who cloaks themselves in labels that one identifies with. Everyone hopes the argument will go away because they don't want to take a stand. Very few people are activists even where only words on a blog are concerned.
I'm not going to respond to the cherry picking comments she made about the Kabbalah. I said I will be ignoring her, and I will. i can't waste my time any more on her strange religion.
Dorothy
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteIn condemning missionaries I am not just criticizing advertising but false advertising. There are Christians and there are Christians. Catholics and mainline Protestants are not interested in converting Jews. Nor do many evangelicals who are friends of Jews and support Israel.
It is a segment of the Christian right, including the Southern Baptists, who are intent on this mission and are increasing their efforts as well as their success. They leave Muslims and atheists alone and focus on Jews. Why?
Their theory is that Jesus cannot return for the second coming w/o
Conversion of all the "lost sheep of Israel." As one Jew quipped, "It is *our* fault he doesn't return."
35 years ago the evangelistic movements held an international conference on strategies for converting Jews. They decided they had been going about it
all wrong. Instead of converting they decided to use the ruse that being a Jewish Messianic believer in Jesus was perfectly Jewish, and they wrapped Jewish symbols, Hebrew language and customs around themselves. There are hundreds of such congregations in the US and they have been more successful than any time in history, having converted a quarter million Jews in the US and Canada. They are especially prolific on college campuses where they target secular, or non-knowledgeable Jewish students who are
removed from their moorings.
In addition to the 200 "messianic" synagogues in the US, there are over 469 Christian missions *just* to the Jews. In 1997 almost $200 million was spent for this purpose. Needless to say, the “messianic” synagogues are
largely financed by Churches.
Here is an excerpt from a note I received from someone who lives in a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY.
“This past week we had over 17 missionaries "hit" our home. And going to the store on the "kosher" avenue, there were at least a dozen passing out literature. Interestingly enough, they ONLY knocked on doors with mezuzahs
and spoke to people with kipots (skull caps), and we saw them even passing out literature to MINORS, my husband stepped in at one point and stopped one guy from passing out his stuff to elementary kids getting off a camp bus.“
Speaking of deception, Jews for Jesus distributed a flyer with a caricature of Howard Stern on the front, and another with a photo of the Seinfeld cast. The
First has the headline, “Howard Stern, a Jew for Jesus?” The pamphlet suggests that he is just that kind of guy. Stern commented about the pamphlet, “Jews for
Jesus are the biggest --- wipes on the planet. It’s like being a Bhuddist For Mohammed. You cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus. If you’re a Jew, you’re a Jew. No way you can be a Jew for Jesus.”
J4J said they are more concerned with interesting readers than in telling the truth and they are unconcerned about legal repercussions of what they do.
They consider their flyers as social commentary so they can get away with it. Stern will not sue because that would just promote the J4J group.
I never fail to go into Manhattan without seeing “Jews for Jesus” handing out literature, and their ever-present mini-buses ferrying new “sheep” for a quickee baptism.
Joyce is their representitive on this blog and uses their tactics without restraint.
Len?
ReplyDeleteA little Freidan slip?
LEN
ReplyDeleteAt 1:12 I suppose you meant to write that note to Joyce? Understandable. It's after 1:30 am now on the East coast.
Dorothy
12/29/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Joyce,
Suzette wrote, "Satans' greatest tactic is to take a bit of truth and mix it with a lie."
Now why did that make me think of you?
Len
Mariel,
ReplyDeleteI know it's really tough to find a good place to worship nowadays. I've been shocked to see the mainstream Christianity going for the two state nonsense. There will probably come a time where people will need to form their own home groups if they want to avoid apostasy and really stay focused on the texts of Scripture and Yeshua, rather than "religion" which is what Mystery Babylon is all about. If you think about it, God never set up a bunch of denominations or different religions..man did. We are supposed to be a body or a community of believers but we have one Bible. Maybe this won't get straightened out till Yeshua comes back, but the Bible says a time will come when the apostasy is so bad we'll have to "get out". I am not glorifying all Messianic congregations either by the way. Messianic practice is about as varied as Church practice. There are good and bad Messianic assemblies.
Having said that, I think God works in spite of all the confusion out there. When you look at Israel in the Wilderness, it was one assembly that was organized around the Mishkan with all the tribes and all the aliens who dwelled with them.
My comments were just to give you a little background on the Brethren because I've had a significant amount of contact with them. I'm not a big fan of their theology, because I see a lot of problems in the way they divide Scripture, but they are a very serious group.
Don't want to get too much into my thoughts about this on the blog because I could easily start another controversy. There's been sufficient controversy for a couple of days, I think..
Blessings,
Joyce
This guy says Abraham was the first Kabbalist..
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/book_1/book1eng_ch04.htm
http://tinyurl.com/4gvvpk
The Muslims say that Adam was the first Muslim, but does that make it so?
Joyce
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Dorothy
I apologize for the 1:12 message to Joyce that was accidently addressed to you.
Obviously it's past my bedtime.
Len
This is what Chabad says about the origins of Kabbalah:
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/44h67p
It is in the Holy Land where he met Malki Tzedek, King of Shalem, who was a priest to G-d, the Most High (Genesis 14:18). Our Sages identify Malki Tzedek as Shem the son of Noah. There is evidence that the mystical tradition was taught to Abraham by Shem. According to some authorities Abraham authored Sefer Yetzirah (the Book of Formation), one of the fundamental works of Kabbalah.
You will notice they always say "our sages say" but some of the sages are 12 century rabbis, who were educated men but not God's prophets. The word rabbi is never used in Tanakh so this was not an "office" that God ordained. The simple meaning of rabbi is a teacher, but God ordained Priests, Prophets and Kings..
Sage of course is an expression for wise men. Rashi and Rambam and Baal Shem Tov, the Kabbalist would be examples of who are considered sages in Judaism. There are many others too, but these simply respected people in Judaism.
Joyce
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Joyce,
KABBALAH:
You are evidently not satisfied with merrely condemning normative Judaism so you are expanding your horizons to attack Kabbalism.
Just like there are phonies in every field there are phonies in Kabbalah too. These are the ones promoting it for commercial reasons and selling red ribbons to Madonna.
But Kabbalah is a venerable ancient tradition and I know somethinng about it. The root KBL means both reception and transmission. Many of the Torah's mysteries and miracles have been explained Kabbalistically and many traditional Jewish customs were develooped by Kabbalists. For example, the Torah commands wearing of fringes on a four-cornered garment, and "signs uupon the hand and the heart" but it does not describe them. Kabbalists designed both the fringes and tefillen (phylacteries).
The traditional Friday night introductory service, called Kabbalat Shabbat (Receiving the Sabbath), was designed by Kabbalists.
I do not intend to start a new thread with you about it. Just consider that what you heard about Abraham starting it is a traditional Kabbalist belief. He is considered, by tradition, to be the author of the seminal Kabbalistic text "Sefer Yetzirah" (The Book of Creation). One translation of Gen, 12:5 is "Abraham went as God had told him, and Abraham took the sould that they had made in Haran." This would be the earliest use of Sefer Yetzirah to make a golem. Alternatively, he is considereed to have used Kabbalah to effectively influence many people towards monotheism.
Consider that the ancient "magic" word, "Abra-K'-Adabra" is Hebrew and literally meaans, "I will make as I speak."
I could give you a long list of the influences Kabbalah has on normative Judaism. But it is also distorted by rogues and even used for idolatry so be careful what you read.
Jacob was considered to have used Kabbalah to control the characteristics of the sheep and goats (Gen. 30:31ff).
Kabbalah also explains Ezekiel's vision.
Do you know the the 12 signs of the Zodiac were derived from the 12 tribes of Israel? At the same time, the Jewish people as a whoole were lifted above the level of astrology by virtue of their having received the Torah.
This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Here is a site with a lot of introductory material on Kabbalah
www.aish.com/spirituality/kabbala101/
And here is a more advanced authentic site for Kabbalistic teaching:
www.kabbalaonline.org/safedteachings/sfari/
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteKABBALA 101:
by Rabbi Shimon Leiberman Kabbala is the Torah's expression of the way the world works. Removed from its source, it's a whole lot of rubbish. (First in a series.)
Most people have heard something or other about Kabbalah. But it is highly unlikely that what is going around in the general marketplace posing as Kabbalah is anywhere close to the real thing.
What most people have been exposed to is a smorgasbord of pop psychology and self-help that pretends to have some connection to Jewish mysticism, but it rarely, if ever, does.
It is easy to see how people are fooled. In most disciplines, you expect to know and understand something after studying it. But when it comes to mysticism, people expect to be mystified. So they are willing to accept incomprehensible mumbo-jumbo. Kabbalah is supposed to be mysterious and enigmatic. It's mysticism after all!
So much nonsense is presented in the name of Kabbalah, it is important to have some sort of forum where people can find the basic understandings that they crave.
In this series, we will attempt to present the central ideas of Jewish mysticism in a methodical and intelligent manner, minimizing abstruse terminology and shying away from a sense of the incomprehensible.
WHAT KABBALAH IS AND ISN'T
In order to understand what Kabbalah is and what it isn't, let us use the following illustration.
A researcher sits in his lab examining all sorts of atomic phenomena. He smashes atoms at great speeds, and records what he sees happening. He is very meticulous in his work, and may even draw some immediate conclusions from the data at hand. But he leaves it at that.
The kabbalist describes the abstract but we can still sense that there is a concrete and solid reality that he is grappling with.
A great scientist picks up these notes, reads them and ponders their meaning. He begins to construct a mega-picture. He tries to envision what the entire system may be like. He knows that there are no instruments, nor can there be, to actually see the particles he imagines, and therefore he gropes for metaphors that will accurately connect the bits of data that the physicist collected. Thus, he begins to speak of "super strings," "atomic tunnels," "energy bridges," and "ten dimensions."
A third person, who has a highly fertile mind but with no sense of science, is eavesdropping. His imagination has been fired and, in no time at all, he is carrying forth about people that have mysteriously disappeared in "atomic tunnels," and unlimited sources of energy contained in various of the "ten dimensions."
These three people illustrate the different approaches to Kabbalah.
The "data" or facts that Kabbalah deals with are the narrative of the Torah, and its entire body of religious law. The "researcher" represents a person who sees the laws and narrative as they are, understands their immediate meaning, but does not get the larger picture.
The "great scientist" represents the Kabbalist who sees the various local points and then begins to get a feel for the greater picture. He needs metaphors to describe the abstract unity he perceives, and he is aware that this tool is likely to be vague and only approaching the understanding that he has acquired. Although limited by the tools at his disposal, the complex picture the great scientist communicates can still give us a sense of the reality that he is grappling with.
And then there is the pseudo-Kabbalist -- "the eavesdropper" -- whose Kabbalah is basically unrelated to Torah, except perhaps as a springboard for his imagination. He has discovered "sources of energies," "divine emanations," and ways to "expand consciousness," but it all stems from his fanciful illusions.
IN SUMMARY
Kabbalah is to Torah what philosophy is to science.
Like science, the Torah gives us the facts that are fully perceived sensually and rationally quantifiable.
Like philosophy, Kabbalah gives us the grander abstract picture that the facts present.
The upcoming segments of this series will be exploring some of the fundamentals of Kabbalah.
Rabbi Leiberman is a leading Jewish educator in Israel and abroad, and has written a number of works on Jewish thought and Kabbalah.
http://www.aish.com/spirituality/
kabbala101/Kabbala_1_-_What_Is_Kabbala$.asp
Suzette,
ReplyDeleteConcerning “rocks”, what you will certainly learn on this blog is that some of us have been here for some time now, the achieves hold a plethora of opinions, quotes, and news articles and comments; one area of concern for me is the open door to the New Age that materialism and its relative, evolution, segways into our culture, i.e. “go for the gusto, you only live once.” Well, I can’t understand how “rocks” produce, evolve love; supposedly it is a survival mechanism, but snakes manage quite well without love. Then again since humans have shed our ability to see in the dark, run with any REAL speed, are 20 times weaker than a gorilla, “nature” had to come up with something to add to our weaknesses; after all love is a kind of suicide! At any rate, if you haven’t seen “EXSPELLED NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED” that is a good primer for what I glibly referred to as rocks.
Nice to have you on board,
Setterman
Constance:
ReplyDeleteMay we please have a new ground rule on this blog:
Stop proselytizing!!!
(Each and every one of us has the right to have our religious convictions respected.)
Len,
ReplyDeleteSo how does it feel to be a man
in this world full of animals ?
( "goyem" means cattle ).
I always wanted to be a man
but according to the Talmud
I'm just an animal.
Oh well.
Also, do you ever consider stealing
and/or swindling from us cattle, since
the Talmud says it's all right to
do so and there's no harm or foul ?
And do you ever go out and have
a little fun on the side with goyem
women since the Talmud says that's
okey too, since they're just cattle
anyways ?
Just make sure you keep doing
Tikkun and giving your alms
to "A Jew who is worthy", ( no
mention of charity going to any
of the cattle. Of course not.)
The Talmud was written by
exiles in their miserable state
of subservience to Babylon and
it bears no resemblance to Moses
and the Torah. It was ostensibly
a commentary on the Bible but
being full of secrets and secret ways
to prosper, it is much more
appealing to people whose god is
their belly and/or their money.
So it has replaced the Torah by
the majority of Jews, and those who
call themselves Jews.
But there is, as always, a remnant
of faithful Jews whom God will
save, who haven't bent their knee
to Baal or Astarte, or Python, etc.
You're in the majority of Jewish
people, Len. Congratulations.
But I know that a majority is just
that. It doesn't make anyone right
or righteous.
I for one am not impressed with
your abundance of words. It's
just a counter to Joyces lengthy
posts. It's the spirit behind the
words that leaves the impression.
The spirit behind the words of
the Mishna and the Kabbalah and
the two Talmuds is the same spirit
that I sense in the Q'ran. It's
counterfeit Bible. It's a nice try but
there's no way to capture the Holy
Spirit and use it for another purpose.
The words lack authority and power.
The so called "oral tradition" is a lie.
God never gave Moses this "other"
set of commandments. God isn't
duplicitous, and He doesn't need to
sneak his "real" will to the world via
any self proclaimed seers or mystics
or Sages.
Maybe that's why it was carefully
kept from any and all translations,
just like the Quran, for so many
centuries. It's transparently Babylonian.
_Wouldn't want the cattle getting any
ideas.
Please don't tell me you're offended.
I'm the one who is considered nothing
more than an animal by your religion.
"They pierced my hands and my feet"
_Psalms 22:16
"They part my garments among them
and cast lots upon my vesture"
_Psalms 22:18
"They will look upon me whom they
have pierced" _Zechariah 12:10
"The stone which the builders rejected
has become the chief cornerstone. This
is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous
in our eyes." _Psalms 118:22,23
"And whosoever shall fall on this
stone shall be broken: but on
whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind
him to powder." _Matthew 21:44
Len,
All my heroes are Jews: Peter,
James, John, Philip, Bartholomew,
Matthew, Andrew, etc.,
_and Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel,
of course David the man after God's
own heart, and Moses the Law Giver,
etc etc.
Please don't pull the antisemite card
with me like Dorothy did.
My Lord and master is the Jewish
Messiah, and I love him.
PAUL AND JOYCE
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else see the pattern?
Dorothy
To YS and Mariel:
ReplyDeleteYS - You previously mentioned you were Noahide. I would appreciate learning about what this means in your own words, it is a relatively new term for me. Also, I like your posts a great deal.
Mariel - I would appreciate you sharing your negative experiences with the NA movement, including Kundailini Yoga. If you feel able to share, I would very much like to hear more.
Thank you both in advance.
12/19/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Paul,
If I do no other good by beeing here, my presennce is worthwhile just to correct the wroong notion that you harbor; from where you got it only God and you know.
Paul asked, "So how does it feel to be a man in this world full of animals ? ( "goyem" means cattle).
FYI, the only words for cattle are: bakahr, b'hayma, tzon and meekna.
What goy and goyim mean are nation and nations respectively. The Bible even mentions "goy Yisrael" which means the Israeli nation.
Paul asked, "Also, do you ever consider stealing and/or swindling from us cattle, since the Talmud says it's all right to do so and there's no harm or foul?" and asserts, "the Talmud says it's all right to do so and there's no harm or foul? And do you ever go out and have a little fun on the side with goyem women since the Talmud says that's okey too, since they're just cattle anyways ?
Paul, you must have gotten all this slanderous material from yopur dictionary source; most likely a skinhead web site. It is ALL lies.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to correct.
Then Paul added, "Just make sure you keep doing Tikkun and giving your alms to "A Jew who is worthy", (no mention of charity going to any of the cattle. Of course not.)
You are scoring zero in truth so far. Tikkun means perfection, In our closing prayer for every service we say, "We hope, Lord ouur God, soon to behold
Your majestic glory, when the aboominations will be removed from earth and the false gods eliminated; when the world will be perfected (tikkun olam) under the Almighty's reign, when all mankind will call on your Name, and all the wicked of the earth will be turned toward You."
You added, "The Talmud --- bears no resemblance to Moses
and the Torah. It was ostensibly
a commentary on the Bible but
being full of secrets and secret ways to prosper, it is much more
appealing to people whose god is
their belly and/or their money.
So it has replaced the Torah by
the majority of Jews, and those who
call themselves Jews.
From what youi say, you would not recognize a Talmud if you tripped over it. Everything significant in the Talmud references the Bible as proof text. Synagogue services make little reference to the Talmud and the Bible is the primary source. Talmud volumes are never opened during services.
Here are a couple of factual Talmuud sites for you to peruse:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/
Cyprus/8815/
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
If you want to see an actual Talmud let me know.
Congrats; your message contains so many false notions and slanders it deserves more than one, even more than two, response(s).
Continued
Young Grasshopper and All,
ReplyDeleteRegarding your observation, Young Grasshopper:
It probably won't make sense unless you've read the book The Armageddon Conspiracy. I don't recommend anyone read it, frankly, because I am a thinned skin weenie. I also think it's way too deceptive for most Christians-weenies or not-it's cunning in the way it twists the truth. That being said, you can learn a lot from their website. That's where I discovered the Mithra connection. Mithra=Maitreya.
The Mithra/Maitreya connection not only makes sense in terms of the syncretistic religious system that is part of the new Age Movement, but also historically in terms of the alleged origins of Maitreya.
FYI and for what it is worth, here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about Mithra.
A pagan religion consisting mainly of the cult of the ancient Indo-Iranian Sun-god Mithra. It entered Europe from Asia Minor after Alexander's conquest, spread rapidly over the whole Roman Empire at the beginning of our era, reached its zenith during the third century, and vanished under the repressive regulations of Theodosius at the end of the fourth century. Of late the researches of Cumont have brought it into prominence mainly because of its supposed similarity to Christianity.....read entire article....
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm
In the last analysis, the Arian heresy would probably have been compatible with Mithraism, but the Nicene and Chalcedonian Creeds would not have been.
Neither would the divine revelation given to Moses atop Mount Horeb.
Here are a couple of other articles that suggest the idea of Maitreya having its origins in Mithraism:
Paul Williams claims that some Zoroastrian ideas influenced the cult of Maitreya, such as "expectations of a heavenly helper, the need to opt for positive righteousness, the future millennium, and universal salvation". Possible objections are that these characteristics are not unique to Zoroastrianism, nor are they necessarily characteristic of the belief in Maitreya.
It is also possible that Maitreya Buddha originated with the Hindu Kalki, and that its similarities with the Iranian Mithra have to do with their common Indo-Iranian origin.
In the Greco-Buddhist art of Gandhara, in the first centuries CE in northern India, Maitreya was the most popular figure to be represented, together with the Buddha Śākyamuni. In China, the cult of Maitreya seems to have developed around the same time of that of Amitābha, as early as the 3rd century AD. ...read more...
http://www.worldvisitguide.com/oeuvre/O0030943.html
The name Maitreya or Metteyya is derived from the word maitrī (Sanskrit) or mettā (Pāli) meaning "loving-kindness", which is in turn derived from the noun mitra (Pāli: mitta) in the sense of "friend".
The earliest mention of Metteyya is in the Cakavatti (Sihanada) Sutta in the Digha Nikaya of the Pali Canon.
Maitreya is sometimes represented seated on a throne Western-style, and venerated both in Mahāyāna and non-Mahāyāna Buddhism. Some have speculated that inspiration for Maitreya may have come from the ancient Indo-Iranian deity Mithra. The primary comparison between the two characters appears to be the similarity of their names. According to a book entitled The Religion of the Iranian Peoples, "No one who has studied the Zoroastrian doctrine of the Saoshyants or the coming saviour-prophets can fail to see their resemblance to the future Maitreya.[1]
Paul Williams claims that some Zoroastrian ideas like Saoshyant influenced the cult of Maitreya, such as "expectations of a heavenly helper, the need to opt for positive righteousness, the future millennium, and universal salvation". Possible objections are that these characteristics are not unique to Zoroastrianism, nor are they necessarily characteristic of the belief in Maitreya....read more...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
12/19/2008
ReplyDeletePaul:
I presented most of the following before but it is worth repeating for the new kid on the block.
Do you know who was the first to add his “opinions” to Torah? Moses; that’s who!
The sages of blessed memory were following the command of God by interpreting things for people that they did not understand. While I don't usually use Jesus as a citation, he himself said, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. (Matthew 23:2&3)" What does it mean to sit in Moses' seat? Isn't it ironic that Christians accuse Jews of making things up about law at the same time they do not follow it whatsoever???
You may recall that, soon after the Decalogue at Sinai, Moses was wearing himself out as magistrate settling disputes (Ex. 18:13-16). His father in law (a Gentile, BTW) suggested that he set up an organization to help (Ex. 8:17-26). Moses did *not* respond: "No; that would be making up our own traditions and customs and replace them for God's word." Moses thought Jethro's advice good and followed it, delegating authority to others for deciding what God's written word meant.
Then God said to Moses, "Come up to The LORD, with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel." The Sanhedrin was instituted by Moses himself (Ex. 24:1), pursuant to God's direction. "Sanhedrin" is the Greek word for the Hebrew "zekaynim," meaning elders, used in this verse. And, in Num. 11, "[Moses] gathered seventy of the people's elders and stationed them around the tent, Then The LORD came down in a cloud and spoke to him; He drew upon the spirit that was on [Moses] and put it on the seventy elders." (Vs. 24-25)
What kind of God-given authority did these elders have?
"You shall appoint magistrates (or judges) and officials and they shall govern the people with justice." (Deut. 17:18) This is exactly what the Sanhedrins were, with the Great Sanhedrin of 71 elders being the equivalent of the Supreme Court, sitting over a time span of many hundreds of years. The Talmud is the result of their adjudications; ie, the Supreme Court's deliberations, including the minority as well as majority opinions. All these judgments became what is known as the Oral Law. They all derive from Sinai and, it is said, that God gave Moses the entire Oral and written law at that time. This means that the Oral Law is nothing more than an explanation and elaboration for the Written Law. This is similar to the way the US works. The courts are co-equal to the executive and legislative branches of government, and they decide what the law means when there is disagreement.
"If a case is too baffling for you to decide you shall promptly repair to the place that The LORD your God will have chosen and appear before the levitical priests or the magistrate *in charge at the time*, and present your problem. When they have announced their verdict in the case, you shall carry out the verdict that is announced to you from the place that The LORD chose, observing scrupulously all their instructions to you. You shall act in accordance with the instructions given you and the ruling handed down to you; you must not deviate from the verdict that they announce to you either to the right or to the left. Should a man act presumptuously and disregard the priest ... or the magistrate, that man shall die. Thus will you sweep out evil from Israel." (ibid., 17:8-12)
Most people do not connect these verses with the Talmud. it is easy to misunderstand the written law. It is, in many places, very general rather than very detailed. For example, exactly what constitutes murder? What if it's accidental? What if injury, not death, was intended? What if death was intended, but the wrong person died? What if someone dies because of my carelessness, rather than my intent to commit harm? If two of us are wandering in a desert, and there is only water for one, has the survivor murdered the other?
How should one observe the Sabbath? Should one avoid "work" in the physicist's sense of the word? In the labor economist's sense? Is it "work" if one enjoys doing it? If I do it without pay, is it "work"? If a priest or rabbi works, is it work? The commandment is very vague, as are many others.
Some laws are even written in ways that appear to contradict their true meaning; "an eye for an eye" for example, which was always interpreted to mean monetary compensation, but which on a surface reading seems to call for physical revenge of the cruelest sort. In Deut. 12:20-27, where we are given permission to slaughter animals and eat meat outside the context of sacrifice, v. 21 says we may slaughter "as I [God] have commanded you" but that command giving instructions for the method of slaughter is nowhere to be found in the *written* Torah; the instructions are detailed in the oral law. Yet the written Torah says explicitly that we are to slaughter following the rules we have been given, referring to the rules of slaughter given only in the oral law.
Remember the incident of the inheritance of the daughters of Tzelafchad, who ask Moses whether they can inherit from their father, who left no sons (Num. 27:1-11)? Moses asks God and comes back with an answer. If the written law is supposed to be complete, and no oral law is necessary, why does Moses have to ask God.
Consider Daniel, who would not eat the king's food or drink his wine (Dan. 1:8), and said his prayers thrice daily while facing Jerusalem. (Dan. 6:11) Where did he learn all this? It is not in the Pentateuch but it is in the Oral Law.
During the years of the Talmud's formation its students committed it to memory, though its 63 tractates encompass thousands of pages, not counting glosses and commentaries that are included in bound volumes. The Talmud became known as the Oral Torah because it was passed orally from generation to generation. It was redacted between the Fourth and Sixth Centuries, C.E., and published reluctantly, following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, the subsequent exile, dispersion, and decline in Torah study, because of a conviction that it would otherwise be forgotten.
Those who deny the authority of the Oral Law (for Jews of course -- including Jesus) are the ones not following God's Word. They are emulating the rebel, Korah (Num. 16). He thought things should be more democratic where his opinion should count as much as the establishment; Moses and the Sanhedrin. It sounded logical but it was wrong nevertheless, as the Bible tells us.
"You have gone too far! for all the community are holy, all of them, and The LORD is in their midst (Num.16:3)," said the rebellious leaders to Moses and Aaron. "Why then do you raise yourselves above The LORD's congregation?" The Midrash provides homiletic and sermonic interpretations, by parable, of what was going on here. The nature of the issue is the authority of Moses to interpret the law and the validity of his interpretations. According to the rebels, it can be interpreted by anyone using common sense. Rashi discusses the following clever ploy of Korah (Rashi, Num. 16:1):
Korah assembled 250 men and women dressed in robes of pure blue wool. They asked Moses, "Does an entirely blue garment still require fringes?" (This refers to Numbers 15:38, which requires fringes on the corners of garments, and a blue thread to be attached.) Moses affirmed that it did. "Is that logical?" they jeered. A robe of any other color fulfills the fringes requirement merely with a single blue thread. Surely a completely blue garment should not require yet an additional blue thread!
The midrash provides another example: "Does a house full of Torahs still require a mezuzah on the doorpost (Deut. 6:9, 11:20)?" Korah asked. "Yes," replied Moses. "If a brief section of scripture, placed in the mezuzah, satisfies the requirement, surely a room full of Torahs, containing the same portions should! Such halakhic decisions are not from the Torah but are your own conceptions." Korah insisted that Moses' logic violated common sense.
Then Korah used a parable to demagogically show that Moses' laws were beyond endurance: 'A poor widow had a field. When she came to plow it, Moses frobade her to plow with an ox and an ass together. When she began to sow, Moses forbade her to use mingled seeds. At harvest time Moses ordered her not to reap the corners of the field, or gather the gleanings, but to leave them for the poor. He also demanded the heave offering for the priests, and the tithe for the Levites. The woman sold the field and bought ewes, hoping that she might remain undisturbed. But when the sheep's firstling arrived, Aaron demanded it as his due. At shearing time Aaron demanded the first of the fleece. Eventually the frustrated woman slaughtered the sheep and, in her anger, consecrated it to the sanctuary, whereupon it all fell to Aaron. 'Such men,' Korah concluded, 'are Moses and Aaron.'"
You wouldn't be descended from Korah, would you Paul?
So next time you consider criticizing “the rabbis” or the Talmud please be aware that you are also criticizing the Torah. That does not mean rabbis can do no wrong. Just as in US law there is a Halakhic system for responding to inquiries and settling disputes.
Susanna,
ReplyDeleteThank -you for bringing some sense to this thread. I'd read Hopper's blog and comments here and had to admit that there was an echo of sensibility to what she was trying to say.
If we can avoid the JOYCE/DOROTHY/LEN tactics which are too divisive for many to follow, we have some good articles on this thread that need further exploration but are obviously rooted in research rather than hidden agendas.
Thanks Susanna.
signed,
searcher of truth
12/19/2008
ReplyDeletePaul quoted what his translation of Psalm 22:
They pierced my hands and my feet"
_Psalms 22:16
"They part my garments among them
and cast lots upon my vesture"
_Psalms 22:18
But his translation, as were those of “goyim” and “Tikun” is incorrect. Here is the t rue one in context:
Ps. 22: 13 Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me. 14 They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion. 15 I was spilled like water, and all my bones were separated; my heart was like wax, melting within my innards. 16 My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death. 17 For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. 18 I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me. 19 They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment. 20 But You, O Lord, do not distance Yourself; my strength, hasten to my assistance. 21 Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog. 22 Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me. 23 I will tell Your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You. 24 You who fear the Lord, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, honor Him, and fear Him, all the seed of Israel.
Ditto on Zechariah:
Paul:
"They will look upon me whom they
have pierced" _Zechariah 12:10
Actual; also in context:
12: 6 On that day I will make the princes of Judah as a fiery stove among wood, and as a brand of fire among sheaves. And they shall consume on the right and on the left all the nations round about, and Jerusalem shall still stay in its place in Jerusalem. 7 And the Lord shall first save the tents of Judah, so that the boasting of the house of David and the boasting of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not increase over Judah. 8 On that day the Lord shall protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the weakest of them shall be, on that day, like David. And the house of David shall be like angels, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And it shall come to pass on that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come upon Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplications. And they shall look to me because of those who have been thrust through [with swords], and they shall mourn over it as one mourns over an only son and shall be in bitterness, therefore, as one is embittered over a firstborn son. 11 On that day there shall be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the Valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart: The family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart. 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of the Shimeites apart, and their wives apart. 14 All the remaining families-every family apart, and their wives apart.
You finally got a translation right but are misinterpreting it.
"The stone which the builders rejected
has become the chief cornerstone. This
is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous
in our eyes." _Psalms 118:22,23
We read this psalm in the synagogue, out loud and in unison, on all festivals.
When God was seeking a replacement for King Saul, he sent the prophet Samuel on the search. When he came to David’s home David’s father Jessse showed him alkll David’s brothers but did not see fit to show David.
1 Sam. 16: 10 And Jesse presented seven of his sons before Samuel; and Samuel said to Jesse, "The Lord has not chosen these." 11 And Samuel said to Jesse, "Are these all the young men?" And he said, "The youngest still remains, and behold, he is tending the sheep." And Samuel said to Jesse, "Send and bring him, for we shall not sit down until he comes here." 12 And he sent and brought him, and he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes, and handsome appearance. And the Lord said, "Arise, anoint him, for this is he." 13 And Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And a spirit of the Lord passed over David from that day forth, and Samuel arose and went to Ramah.
"And whosoever shall fall on this
stone shall be broken: but on
whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind
him to powder." _Matthew 21:44
Paul added: All my heroes are Jews: Peter,
James, John, Philip, Bartholomew,
Matthew, Andrew, etc.,
_and Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel,
of course David the man after God's
own heart, and Moses the Law Giver,
etc etc.
Ho come you omitted Jesus and Paul? I encourage you to follow your heroes as I ask you to apologize for slandering Jews and Judaism.
Len,
ReplyDeleteShould I parade out all the quotes in the
Talmud regarding Jesus and Mary ?
No I won't just now.
Jesus told his disciples repeatedly
that he would be betrayed by the
scribes and the elders and the
Pharasees. He mentions them more
than once, and at different times.
The scribes and the elders and the
leaders of the Sanhedron, he said,
would deliver him up to death,
and that's just what they did, but
not all of them. Joseph of Aramathea
saw the light and found his Messiah.
These scribes and Pharassees were
the keepers of this oral tradition that
you, Len are defending.
And what does the talmud say
about Jesus himself ?
It's too vile and sick minded to
quote here or anywhere else.
PAUL
ReplyDeleteIt appears you are searching the antisemitic websites for your information rather than the New Testament. I knew what you were early on. But aw gee, you can be so charming at times that only the discerning can see what your skin covers.
Dorothy
SEARCHER OF TRUTH
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "If we can avoid the JOYCE/DOROTHY/LEN tactics which are too divisive for many to follow, we have some good articles on this thread that need further exploration but are obviously rooted in research rather than hidden agendas."
If you really are a searcher of truth, then you should not be avoiding it. I have no hidden agenda. I've been sharing New Age information with Constance since 1982, long before this blog was started.
There were no problems until Joyce came on the scene with her distorted information about Judaism months ago. I tried to correct her posts. I then tried to ignore her. She just continued to distort Judaism for her own ends.
Len has no hidden agenda. He came here to present the truth about Judaism which I was not able to do as my free time had been spent documenting the New Age movement and not Judaism.
Should we just allow Joyce's perfumed comments to distort what Judaism really is?
A single statement can be true, but the search for truth is complex. Ask what a tree is. A truthful answer would be wood. But that's not where the search for truth ends. A tree has branches and leaves and roots and has a description and a type and color atoms and molecules and sap and.....
Religion is even more complex and there are many things that contribute to the truth about a particular religion. Yes, the posts can be long and boring, particular to someone of another religion. However as long as there are readers here who want to make religion a large part of this blog, and as long as someone wants to distort Judaism to support their own religious views, there must be an answer.
When believers in Christianity were posting here, there was no problem as Christians have not used their religious beliefs to attack Judaism. I did not post Jewish beliefs because I thought they would be intrusive in the discussion on New Age.
You may have included my name and Len's name in an effort to be impartial, but if you are really a searcher for truth, you had better know what the truth is as you can't seem to find it on your own.
Dorothy
Len, I am appreciative of your very clear explanations dispelling the myths about your religion as posted by people such as Paul and Joyce. I sense some of the things Paul wrote here about Judaism are wrong but I don't have the answers why. Your posts are very worthwhile in helping to understand.
ReplyDeleteThank you again,
Carrie
Len, would you please address in a separate post Paul's comments about the Talmud's allegedly prejudiced view of gentiles? I wish to know the truth here (whether good, bad, ugly, or a bit of both).
ReplyDeleteCarrie
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLen,
ReplyDeleteI too would like to know what the Talmud says regarding gentiles and jesus.
Bill
Len,
ReplyDeleteLooking at the post you called Paul out on as having the wrong translation, I would have to say my bibles that I have at my home read the same as Paul's. Which translation are you using?
Bill
Proselyzation is a commandment from Yahushua.
ReplyDeleteMark 16: 15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
Also from the Savior: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumsision,which is outward in the flesh
Time for a circumsision of the heart
Dear Len,
ReplyDeleteRe: Your fascinating and informative post about the Kabbalah.
If I understand you correctly....and please correct me if I am mistaken.......if the "picture" of reality the Kabbalist envisions contradicts the Torah, then this is an example of false Kabbalah, right?
In other words, Kabbalah cannot trump the Torah?
Len,
ReplyDeleteTalmud
Looking into what you were saying about Paul's post, because though he is a christian I want to defend him, but because I am a christian the truth is more important, he made a reference to you regarding Goyim=cows. You said he mistranslated and then, as I would agree, you stated it means nations. Every christian I know would consider Goyim to mean gentiles.
Looking at this, is this out of the Talmud?
Kerithuth 6b page 78, Jebhammoth 61a
This is a passage that seems to make what Paul was saying actually intellegent. It seems Paul is speaking directly to you as you are the one who professes the religion, yet you seem to twist it and present it back to all the others who do not study the Talmud or know what it says so that Paul looks dumb. That is nt a very good way to win an argument. I call that deciept. If you say I am Anti-Semitic, that is not very noble, however I do not believe you will. The truth is important.
Bill
In case it is not clear in the previous post, this section of the Talmud states Goyim=cattle.
ReplyDeleteKerithuth 6b page 78, Jebhammoth 61a
If I am wrong, I am ready to apologize and excited about learning.
Bill
LEN
ReplyDeleteI believe Len is Orthodox. The Sabbath starts at sundown on Friday evening and there are restrictions on what can be done. All of you may have to wait for your replies.
Dorothy
Thank you Dorothy, I just giggled at how long the list of replies would be by the time he returns.
ReplyDeleteBill
To Shem1777 (6:51 PM):
ReplyDeleteWell, "proselyzation is NOT a commandment" of this blog - nor is it the purpose of this blog!
However, what you choose to do away from this blog is strictly your business.
Anon 9:49
ReplyDeleteHahahahahaah!
Nice.
dorothy and len are defensive and seem to feel attacked by joyce and paul who are presenting only their love of Christ and to date have not presented anything antisemetic that I have read. Christians view JEws as part of the body of Christ and know that Jesus will focus again on the nation of Israel after the rapture. blessings, connie
ReplyDelete"BUT WOE UNTO YOU,SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, HYPOCRITES! BECAUSE YOU SHUT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AGAINST MEN; FOR YOU NEITHER ENTER YOURSELVES, NOR ALLOW THOSE WHO WOULD ENTER TO GO IN" MATTHEW 23:13
ReplyDeleteTo Shem1977 (4:17 AM):
ReplyDeleteAnd "woe unto you" for not following the command of Jesus to:
"Judge not lest ye be judged."
The truth is that you don't have a "clue" as what ANY of us believe (just because some of us are trying to make a point about not wanting to be convertrd over to your particular "brand").
Religious faith begins in one's HEART - and your arrogance here speaks volumes!!!
Connie:
ReplyDeleteIf you were an Orthodox Jew instead of a Christian like me, I venture to say you would feel very differently after reading some of Joyce's posts and Paul's posts.
It's very difficult to see things from another's perspective however, when it is someone else (a member of another "group") being verbally abused instead of you or "one of your own."
I'm sure there are tens of thousands in the Arab world who don't see anything offensive or Anti-semitic about Hamas for example. Then again, most of the people saying "there is no Anti-semitism here" aren't Jews are they? I am not equating Joyce or Paul with Hamas. I am, however, pointing out that "denial" is a universal phenomenon. Read up on the history of Nazi Germany if you want to see it in action.
Maybe you should listen to the people who have first-hand experience of being abused here instead of just celebrating in knee-jerk fashion people whose religious beliefs In Jesus Christ you happen to agree with.
Also maybe you should read some history about Antisemitism and also about what propoganda is and how it brainwashes people.
I'm sure anyting remotely "Anti-Christian" would jump out at you in a heartbeat. But if it's against the Jews well -- it's a figment of the Jews'imagination now, isn't it?
Signed,
A Lover of Jesus Christ who despises Antisemitism.
P.S. to Connie,
ReplyDeleteThe criteria you apply when evaluation the statements of Joyce and Paul seems to be, "whatever they say about Judaism is fine with me because they love Jesus Christ, just like me."
It's a variation on the theme: "If they believe in Jesus Christ, anything they do or say or do is permitted."
This is a very dangerous standard of measurement. It is one explicitly contrary to the New Testament.
It is a rampant practice at this blog. It is a betrayal of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is a distortion of Christianity.
Do you think He still "knows you" when you spit on Him by systematically reject His commandments?
As a Christian, I am obliged to point this out to you.
You, and many other professed Chrisitians here, badly need to get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness and the grace to serve and honor Our Lord.
Sorry if you find this "harsh" but the gospel is harsh. Christianity is not a fuzzy electric blanket or a "feel good" religion. It is a cross. Part of taking up the cross is listening to Him and honoring his commandments.
Christianity, as presented at this blog, is often a false Christianity with no connection to hard choices and sacrifice -- the central demands of the gospel.
A Lover of Jesus Christ who despises Antisemitism.
Sorry, that should have read:
ReplyDelete"The criteria you apply when evaluating the statements of Joyce and Paul"
yes the love of Christ is in your remarks blessings connie
ReplyDeleteConnie,
ReplyDeleteYes, the love is there, good that you can see it. He did "come with a sword."
Dear Lover of Jesus Christ who hates antisemitism:
ReplyDeleteI wish to support your observations. Connie does seem to be condoning a Nietzschean "morality free" version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is disturbing to say the least.
If you feel my post was arrogant,and you feel judged, then its Yahushua you feel is arrogant, and its the Word you feel judged by. Because i gave no comment of my own, but only wrote scripture? That tells me you are of the same spirit of the pharisees Yahushua addressed when He walked among them.
ReplyDeleteTo Shem 1777:
ReplyDelete"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? How wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
-- Matthew 7:2-5
"If you feel my post was arrogant,and you feel judged, then its Yahushua you feel is arrogant"
ReplyDeleteHi Joyce, is that you?
LOL.
Dear I Like Matthew Too,
ReplyDeleteAmen to that. Im convicted by scriptue always. That you Father for your Son Yahushua who cleanses us from all unrighteousness!!!!
Many Christian posters here seem to want to proclaim the love of Jesus without considering the meaning of the Cross.
ReplyDeleteI believe this is a dangerous approach to the Bible that promoters of the "Course in Miracles" would approve of.
You know shem,
ReplyDeleteI am reminded of a certain story. When the time of Jesus's arrest came, Peter took out his sword and struck off a man's ear. It is much of what you are doing. I used to hate that parable as it was taught in my church, but you my friend have "put skin on the ball" so to speak.
Bill
To William Seitz (4:31)
ReplyDeleteBill, thank you for reminding us of that beautiful parable about Peter cutting off that soldier's ear at the time of Jesus's arrest.
And the end of the story was a lesson to us ALL about the true love and humility of Jesus - who promptly and gently placed that soldier's ear back and healed him on the spot.
TRUE Christians can only "walk in the footsteps of Jesus" if we have LOVE and HUMILITY in our hearts!!!
You know william,
ReplyDeleteI have quoted scripture to the thugs who find it ok to beat up Joyce etc. Which i guess is ok? Iv cut no one with a physical sword, nor whould iIf anyone is offended at scripture they are of another spirit.
Hi "Shem",
ReplyDeleteOr should I say "Joyce?"
LOL
Just be nice to Joyce
ReplyDeleteHey, Shem1777 (7:41 PM)
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you and Joyce try being "nice" to the rest of us???
LOL
12/20/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Bill,
Folllowing is Ketuboth 6b with all the notes at the bottom. It is abouut the first night after a wedding and will unoubtedly seem strange. But the word, "animal, does not appear. I am waiting for your apology too.
Peace and blessing,
Len
Kethuboth 6b
[Now] does it not1 mean that if he had [yet] no intercourse [with his wife] he may have intercourse [with her] even on Sabbath?2 — Said Raba: No, except Sabbath. Said Abaye to him: But it says, 'until the night following the Sabbath [one gives her] four nights'?3 — Only, said Raba, when he already had intercourse [with her].4 If [it were, as you say,] after he already had intercourse, what does he let us hear?5 — He lets us hear that it is allowed to have intercourse on Sabbath, as that [statement] of Samuel [teaches], for Samuel said: One may enter into a narrow opening on Sabbath,6 although7 he causes pebbles to break loose.8
R. Joseph objected: A bridegroom is free from the reading of Shema'9 in the first night10 until the night following the Sabbath, if he has not performed [yet] an act.11 Is it not12 because he is anxious to perform the marital act?13 — Said Abaye to him: No; he is anxious because he has not had intercourse.14 Said Raba to him: And on account of anxiety [only]15 he is free [from reading Shema']? If this were so, then [if] his ship sank in the sea, he would also be free [from the reading of Shema']! And should you say [that] it is really so, surely, R. Abba b. Zabda said [that] Rab said: A mourner is bound to observe all the precepts that are stated in the Torah except [that] of the Tefillin16 because it is said with regard to them an ornament'?17 — But, said Raba, this18 is a dispute of Tannaim,19 for one [Baraitha] teaches: If he20 did not do an act [of coition] in the first [night],21 he is free [from reading Shema'] also in the second [night]; in the second [night],22 he is free [from reading Shema'] also in the third [night].23 And another [Baraitha] teaches: [In] the first and second [night] he is free, [but in] the third [night] he is obliged [to read Shema'].24 And Abaye [holds that] there25 also [they]26 differ with regard to anxiety.27 And these Tannaim [are] like those Tannaim,28 for it has been taught [in a Baraitha]: He who marries a maiden shall not perform the first intercourse29 on Sabbath, and the Sages allow [it]. Who are the Sages? Said Rabbah: It is R. Simeon, who says: A thing which is not intended is allowed.30 Said Abaye to him: But R. Simeon admits (that it is forbidden] in [a case of] 'Let his head be cut off and let him not die!'31 Said he to him: Not like those Babylonians who are not skilled in moving aside,32 but there are some who are skilled in moving aside.33 If so,34 why [give the reason of] 'anxious'?35 — For one who is not skilled. [Then] let them say: One who is skilled is allowed [to perform the first intercourse on Sabbath], one who is not skilled is forbidden? — Most [people] are skilled.36 Said Raba the son of R. Hanan to Abaye: If this were so, then why [have] groomsmen,37 why [have] a sheet?38 — He [Abaye] said to him: There [the groomsmen and the sheet are necessary] perhaps he will see and destroy [the tokens of her virginity].39
R. Ammi objected:40 He who pierces41 an abscess on Sabbath, if [in order] to make an opening42 to it, he is guilty,43 but if [in order] to cause pus to come out of it
---------
Original footnotes renumbered. See Structure of the Talmud Files
Lit., 'is it not?' Having quoted the Mishnah from Nid. 64b, R. Hisda proceeds to ask his question, which is based on the last statement of Beth Hillel.
The question presumes that 'until the night following the Sabbath (one gives her) four nights' may also mean any one of the four nights, and thus the intercourse may be first consummated on the night of Sabbath, (v. Rashi). This shews that one may have the first intercourse on Sabbath.
Sabbath must, therefore, be included!
One night before Sabbath. The intercourse on Sabbath was thus not the first.
What new law does the Tanna teach us? Why should he (the husband) not be allowed to have intercourse on Sabbath?
Lit., 'a narrow opening (or breach). one may enter into it on Sabbath.'
Lit., 'and although.'
He may have, say the second intercourse on Sabbath, v. Rashi, ad loc.
The verses, Deut. VI, 4-9, XI, 13-21; Num. XV, 37-41 which are recited daily, morning and evening.
Following the marriage.
I.e., the first intercourse. Mishnah Ber. 16.
That he is free from the reading of Shema', even on Sabbath night.
Lit., 'because he is anxious, because he wants to have intercourse.' Being preoccupied with a duty (mizwah) he is free from another duty (mizwah).
[Before Sabbath, and forbidden to have it on Sabbath.]
Mental agitation, worry.
Phylacteries, v. Glos.
Cf. Ezek. XXIV, 17. [The reference being there to the Tefillin which Ezekiel was charged not to lay aside despite his mourning for his wife. V. M.K. 15a.] A mourner, though very much troubled, is nevertheless not free from observing the precepts. We thus see that anxiety does not exempt one from fulfilling the various religious commandments. And so in the case of the Mishnah quoted by R. Joseph it cannot be that the bridegroom is free from the reading of Shema' only because of his anxiety.
With regard to the first intercourse on Sabbath.
Lit., 'this is (of) Tannaim.
The bridegroom.
After the marriage.
If he did not do an act in the second night either.
The third night (after the fourth day in the week) is Sabbath, and he is free from reading Shema' as he is allowed to perform the marital act for the first time.
The teacher of this Baraitha holds that he is not allowed to perform it first on Sabbath, and therefore he is obliged to read Shema'.
In the Baraithas just quoted.
The Tannaim.
According to the first Baraitha his anxiety caused by the fact that he is not allowed to perform the act on Sabbath frees him from reading Shema'. And according to the second Baraitha this anxiety does not free him from reading Shema'. According to the first Baraitha the case of the mourner would be different. Since anxiety is no part of the mourning observances (Rashi. a.l.).
I.e., the dispute of the Tannaim just quoted by Raba is the same as the dispute of the Tannaim of the Baraitha to be quoted now.
Lit., 'shall not have intercourse at the beginning.'
V. supra p. 19, n. 4.
V. supra p. 20, n. 8.
I.e., having intercourse with a virgin without causing a bleeding.
Thus no blood need come out, and 'Let his head be cut off and let him not die!' does not apply.
If the bridegroom is skilled in 'moving sideways'.
He need not be anxious about the intercourse and should not be free from reading Shema' on account of such anxiety.
Therefore the principle regarding 'Let his head be cut off and let him not die!' does not, as a rule, apply.
The groomsmen testify in case of need to the virginity of the bride. V. infra 12a. If the bridegroom will act in a manner that will cause no bleeding, the groomsmen will not be able to testify on the question of virginity.
To provide evidence of the virginity of the bride. Cf. Deut. XXII, 17.
It may happen that he will act in the normal manner and cause bleeding but he will destroy the tokens and maintain that the bride was not a virgin; for this reason the above mentioned provisions are necessary. Where however he moved aside and made a false charge as to her virginity, the bride can plead that she is still a virgin (Rashi).
V. 'Ed. (Sonc. ed.) p. 12 nn. 5-6.
Lit., 'loosens.' Jast.: 'manipulates.'
Lit., 'mouth'.
Of Sabbath-breaking.
12/20/2008
ReplyDeletePaul,
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and did not meet your expectations of being accused of antisemitism. Instead of admitting your error you come up with yet more false accusations about the Talmud.
FYI, the false accusations about "Jesus in the Talmud" are dealt with here:
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
articles/jesus.html
No need to shield you any more from what you have convincingly demonstrated you are; another among the many rabid antisemiites we Jews have had to contend with throughout our history.
As we say at the Passover seder (Well maybe Joyce does not say it at hers):
"Throughout our history have they risen up to destroy us but the Holy One, blessed be He, saves us from their hands."
I could also quote God's statement to Abraham:
"And I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse ---." (Gen. 12:3)
And Isaac's blessing to Jacob/Israel:
"Those who curse you shall be cursed, and those who bless you shall be blessed." (Gen. 27:29)
12/20/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Carrie,
Thank you for your good wishes.
I just provided a web site to Paul that deals with false accusations about the Talmud's view of Jesus.
I have been involved on line in interfaith posting for many years and there is little here I have not seen before from two groups of people who want to destroy traditional Judaism: missionaries to the Jews and antisemites.
There are many Christian and interfaith web sites that are conciliatory to Jews and Israel.
Here are a sample:
http://www.ifcj.org/site/
PageServer
http://
www.israelunitycoalition.org/
about/index.php
http://www.icjs.org/
index.html
http://www.cufi.org/
site/PageServer
http://
www.bridgesforpeace.com/
h2n.php?fn=whoarewe.html
http://
www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/
http://www.cfi-usa.org/
http://www.nclci.org/
As you can see, there are tens of millions of Christians who actively support Israel without proselytizing.
Have a great week.
Peace and blessing,
Len
12/20/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Bill,
Here is a web site dealing specifically with the false accusations about what the Talmud says about gentiles and Jeesus:
http://talmud.faithweb.com/
articles/jesus.html
Have a great week,
Len
12/20/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Bill,
I don't know to which of Paul's quotes you refer.
Regarding Bible translations you should know that the King James, and many other Christian "Old Testaments" have Christologized many passages.
The best translations are Jewish ones simply because Jews understand Hebrew better than most non-Jews.
Probably the best Jewish translation available on line is the Judaica Press. It is available on the following Chabad web site but is not a Chabad translation:
http://www.chabad.org/
library/article_cdo/aid/
63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm
Have a great week.
Len
12/20/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Shem,
I understand your zeal in following the NT commandments.
Let me quote a Southern Baptist pastor on this (who has, since he wrote this converted to ORthodox Judaism):
"Sure, I had the New Testament belief in the way of actually BEING Jewish. But I didn't believe in trying to convert Jews. I couldn't see people who followed God's own Torah as being destined for "hell" and definitely couldn't say "you're the chosen people" and "you're going to hell" in the same breath. Those are mutually exclusive statements. They cannot both be true -- and I knew it.
He know it and felt strongly enough to be able to leave the presumably "saved" people to join the one allegedly "destined for hell."
What did he understand that you do not?
Len
12/21/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Susanna,
You are 100% correct.
Kaballah can intepret the Torah but not contradict it.
Even if it does not contradict, anyone who uses
Kaballah for selfish ends instead of to further God's will is a heretic.
I have a book on this subject called "Faith and Folly, The Occfult in Torah Perspective" by Rabbi Yaakov Hillel.
http://www.feldheim.com/
cgi-bin/
category.cgi?item=0-87306-536-0
The Foreward says: "In revent times people in distress have been turnning to "Kabbalists" for help. Simultaneously , complaints of extortion and abuse by charlatans have been pouring into the rabbinical courts." The book was written "to save people from pitfalls."
In the preface he writes: "Faith is a Torah obligation. Foly, or misplaced faith, is forbidden by the Torah." There is "often a mere handbreadth between the two. -- Misguided or misplaced faith verges on idolotry. --- Any form of mediation betwewewn man and God is idolotrous. --- Unfortunately -- anyone who labels himself as a 'Kabbalist' is accepted as a holy man capable of delivering miracles upon receipt of payment. If he wears exotic dress and rolls his eyes he is even considered a prophet."
Have a great week.
Len
12/21/2008
ReplyDeleteDear Bill,
The Hebrew word, “goyim,” literally means “nations.” The word, or a variant, appears in the Tanakh 475 times in my English translation. While not all of them are “goyim” in Hebrew I will wager that most of them are. A few examples:
“From these, the islands of the nations (ha-goyim) separated in their lands, each one to his language, according to their families, in their nations (ba-goyayhem). (Gen. 10:5)
“These are the sons of Ham according to their families, and their tongues, in their lands, in their nations (ba-goyayhem). (Gen. 10:20)”
These are the sons of Shem according to their families, according to their tongues, in their lands, according to their nations (l’goyayhem). These are the families of the sons of Noah according to their generations, in their nations(b’goyayhem), and from these, the nations (ha-goyim) were separated on the earth after the Flood. (Gen. 10:31-32)
.
Gen. 17:4 "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, and you shall become the father of a multitude of nations (goyim). 5 And your name shall no longer be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham, for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations (goyim). 6 And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations (l’goyim), and kings will emerge from you.
I could go on and on but you get the idea. Let me include one that refers to Israel as “goy” as well as non-Jewish nations as "goyim."
And who is like Your people, like Israel, one nation (goy) in the world, whom God went to redeem for Himself as a people, and to make Him a name, also to accomplish for you the greatness and fearful things for Your land, [in driving out] from before Your people, whom You did redeem for Yourself out of Egypt, [the] nations (goyim) and their gods? (2 Sam. 7:23)
Note that the above one uses the same word for both the Israeli and other nations. In common parlance the plural word “goyim” is used for gentile nations as is the case here. It is not exactly a pejorative or insult since the Bible uses it here in exactly the same way.
Have a great week,
Len
Len,
ReplyDeleteI apologize, (did I say humbly apologize or just apologize?) regarding the Talmud. It first and formost comes from my ignorance of the Talmud.
Regarding the Scriptures, I read the "christian" bible so may it be that it is numbered different than the one you read yet contains the same context?
Bill
Okay, back to mysticism, the interfaith dialogue stuff and the big players. Rudi, I believe mentioned Rabbi David Rosen. He is a huge player in this whole scenario, so I want to highlight his website, and the links on it which I think are significant:
ReplyDeletehttp://rabbidavidrosen.net/links.htm
He received "papal knighthood"...
http://rabbidavidrosen.net/index.htm
On is site is the Elijah Interfaith Institute again, which is on Jerusalem Academy's website too.
Hommes de Parole which was involved in the rabbi Imam meeting is one his site too.
and this link is also on his site:
http://www.starsforearth.org/?q=fr/
Look at the images and video on the site. It's UN Millnnium Development Goals all the way..
On that site we find this:
http://www.jewishclimateinitiative.org/ethics/interfaith.php
http://tinyurl.com/7trws5
On this last blog we find this:
http://www.interfaithpower.org/members.htm
http://tinyurl.com/7r4ly4
On this site you have everyone from Catholics, Presbyterians to Baptists to Methodists, to Buddhists to Synagogues... I will do some more research on this, but I suspect the common thread running through Mother Earth worship will be mysticism..
Joyce
oops, posted that in the wrong place. I'll repost on the recent blog. Joyce
ReplyDeleteDear Len:
ReplyDeleteThank you for bringing clarity and order to this blog.
As a Christian who does not really know how to go about supporting Israel more I am very encouraged by the links you provided which show many examples here of brave and dedicated individual Christians who have lived out a commitment to Israel in a very admirable way.
There is a branch of Christianity called "apologetics" which involves the best and brightest minds who pursue a vocation to explain the Christian faith (there are apologists from various Christian sects, Catholicism, Evangelicalism, etc.) to those who would misunderstand or otherwise distort (deliberately or otherwise) Christian teachings.
Since joining this blog discussion you have fulfilled a role of "Orthodox Jewish Apologist." I think it is very wonderful for all.
A Lover of Jesus Christ who despises Antisemitism
Sorry Len, that should have read:
ReplyDelete"There is a branch of Christian thought called 'apologetics.'"
Obviously, "apologetics" is not itself a branch of Christian religion.