Somehow the papal "resignation" does not pass my "smell test." Malachi Martin's novel
THE WINDSWEPT HOUSE scenarios keep running through my head. There is just too much talk on secular networks about it now being time for somebody more friendly to contraception, same-sex marriage, etc. Liberal nuns have joined the network talk re same. Lee Penn virtually prophesied this would happen last Saturday morning on my internet radio program at www.themicroeffect.com or TMEradio.com. I have invited Lee back for the second hour of my program this coming Saturday to discuss the ramifications of this.
Hours after the Pope's announcement, lightning struck St. Peter's Basilica dome in Vatican City. A warning sign from God? I suspect it well may be!
Stay tuned!
CONSTANCE
well, you'd have to figure out how often lightning strikes that point. However, it is odd. As for the Malachy Prophecy, however, Petrus Romanus is not numbered, so could be any number of popes later, a lacuna an indefinite time span. Merely the last pope. Petrus means stone or rock, Cephas in Greek. so watch out for someone who has a name that translates in any language as stone or rock, and is either a priest in Rome or born in or grew up in Rome to be Petrus Romanus. Peter OF Rome.
ReplyDeleteThere was some prophecy that the last Christian Byzantine emperor like the first would be named Constantine, perhaps the same deal with Rome. Peter was present briefly in Rome long enough to be Bishop there before his crucifixion upside down, though he did not found that congregation. Paul writes of wanting to visit them and give them some spiritual gift to establish them, so they must have had no bishop then. Peter was first Bishop of Antioch, so Rome's petrine claims are less than Antioch's being second as a bishopric of Peter's.
The canon that confirms Rome as first among equals, specifies that the reason for this is its worldly status, Peter is never even mentioned in this regard.
Tom Horn &co have the crazy idea that the last pope will be either the false prophet or the antichrist, despite quoting online the prophecy that Petrus Romanus would feed his flock during great persecution. Horn can get ahead of himself. "raiders" and the opening statement is very fleshly swashbuckling. But that doesn't mean he isn't onto something sometimes. The idea of soulless beings is nonsense, we ARE souls, all sentient beings are souls, all animals are souls, the body is part of the soul, lost at death, we and the various animals are just different kinds of souls, and Christ died for all creation note Romans and Colossians, so that incl. humans, animals, hybrids, whatever. Those who say nephilim hybrids or aliens hybrids or transgenic humans or clones are without souls and unsaveable are just ignorant.
One argument is that the spirit of the species is transmitted through the father, which depends on KJV wrongly using different words in English due to English custom, to describe a male "begetting" and a female "giving birth to" someone, guess what, in Hebrew it is the SAME word, see Strong's Concordance.
Steve Colbert had fascinating things to say. He believes the Pope is being "pushed out."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-pope-benedict-resigns-stephen-colbert-20130212,0,3365542.story
or tinyurl
http://tinyurl.com/aqgm782
Frankly, I am suspecting likewise -- like say, THE WINDSWEPT HOUSE scenario?
Constance
its been a long time since I read Windswept House, what is the scenario?
ReplyDeleteChristina,
ReplyDeleteYou will just have to read it again for yourself.
Constance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs10Rr14WxY
ReplyDeleteSee the lightning hit on youTube:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9-KLF3EJnQ
Lightning actually struck the Vatican TWICE on Monday, February 11th (the day of the Pope's announcement).
ReplyDeleteCaught on camera by AFP photographer Filippo Monteforte, he described how he took the incredible image which has been beamed all over the world.
He said: "I took the picture from St. Peter’s Square while sheltered by the columns. It was icy cold and raining sheets. When the storm started, I thought that lightning might strike the rod, so I decided it was worth seeing whether – if it DID strike – I could get the shot at exactly the right moment.”
Filippo, armed with a 50mm lens, waited for more than two hours and was rewarded for his patience with not one but two bolts.
He added: “The first bolt was huge and lit up the sky, but unfortunately I missed it. I had better luck the second time, and was able to snap a couple of images of the dome illuminated by the bolt.”
http://www.spiritdaily.com/A211lightnig.htm
Original source: Filippo Monteforte (02/11/13)
http://t.co/FehVjFYP(https://twitter.com/AFP/status/301074815287193601)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us8Yv4YLz9k
ReplyDelete"Cardinal Turkson wrote. "The cultures and religions of the world all have a patrimony of values and spiritual riches to share with others, which can be considered as a preparation for Christ."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zenit.org/en/articles/cardinal-turkson-on-assisi-event-religions-key-to-peace
The Catholic Primate of All-Ireland Cardinal Seán Brady has indicated that he does not consider himself a possible successor to Pope Benedict XVI.
ReplyDelete...Cardinal Brady also expressed the hope that the next pope would continue to place emphasis on ecumenism and dialogue with other world religions and be a leader who would continue to “denounce the scandal of war and poverty in the world”.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0212/1224329950661.html
On Ash Wednesday, pope preaches on humility, Christian unity
ReplyDeleteVATICAN CITY (CNS) -- Celebrating what was expected to be the last public liturgy of his pontificate two weeks before his resignation, Pope Benedict XVI preached on the virtues of humility and Christian unity and heard his highest-ranking aide pay tribute to his service to the church.
Jesus "denounces religious hypocrisy, behavior that wants to show off, attitudes that seek applause and approval," the pope said in his homily during Mass in St. Peter's Basilica Feb. 13. "The true disciple does not serve himself or the 'public,' but his Lord, in simplicity and generosity."
Coming two days after Pope Benedict announced that he would be the first pope in 600 years to resign, the Mass inevitably took on a valedictory tone.
"For me it is also a good opportunity to thank everyone, especially the faithful of the diocese of Rome, as I prepare to conclude the Petrine ministry, and I ask you for a special remembrance in your prayer," the pope told the congregation, including dozens of cardinals and bishops, filling the vast basilica.
The Ash Wednesday liturgy, traditionally held in two churches on Rome's Aventine Hill, was moved to St. Peter's to accommodate the greatest possible number of faithful.
At the end of the Mass, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who as secretary of state is the Vatican's highest official, voiced gratitude for Pope Benedict's pontificate of nearly eight years.
"Thank you for giving us the luminous example of a simple and humble laborer in the vineyard of the Lord," Cardinal Bertone said, invoking the same metaphor Pope Benedict had used in his first public statement following his election in 2005.
His voice cracking slightly with emotion, Cardinal Bertone described Benedict as a "laborer who knew at every moment to do what is most important, bring God to men and bring men to God."
Following the cardinal's remarks, the congregation broke into a standing ovation that lasted well over a minute, ceasing only after the pope, looking surprised but not displeased, said: "Thank you, let's return to prayer."
For more....
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1300631.htm
To Anonymous 6:28
ReplyDeleteThank you for the lovely video of the girls' choir! I have downloaded it for watching when I get worried or depressed. Happens often in my profession!
Constance
To Anonymous 7:28
ReplyDeleteThank you for the link. Sure hope Cardinal Turkson doesn't become the next pope! Lee Penn will have plenty to say about that on my Saturday radio program.
Constance
"Cardinal Turkson wrote. "The cultures and religions of the world all have a patrimony of values and spiritual riches to share with others, which can be considered as a preparation for Christ."
ReplyDeleteOf course human cultures can learn from each other, but all human cultures are fallen. To get out of the fall you need God, and specifically His only Son Jesus Christ. Whenever I read this "other religions" trash I look at what God has to say about pagan false gods in the Old Testament. It's probably the strongest language in the Bible.
There are things buried here and there in the false religions that are holdovers from the time before, when truth was known, but while they can lay the groundwork for someone's receptivity to Jesus Christ, mostly these require the skill of a theologian to put to work for this.
ReplyDeleteWhile this is the take the Church Fathers and some missionaries have had and St. Paul used as an opening wedge at Mars Hill, this kind of talk Turkson uses if not read carefully, but cavalierly as most will, is only a bad influence of religious indifferentism.
Pope Benedict XVI’s brother thinks papacy will go to a European, not from ‘the new continents’
ReplyDeletehttp://pix11.com/2013/02/12/new-information-about-pope-benedict-emerges/#axzz2KtP4BpOD
The first misstep among the papabile
The possibility that Cardinal Peter Turkson will be elected Pope—never terribly likely—has become more remote with the publication of the Ghanian cardinal’s statement that he would be prepared to accept election. Cardinal-electors generally frown on anything that could be construed as campaigning for the papacy, and Cardinal Turkson already has a reputation for speaking without sufficient forethought....read more...
http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=964
It is very likely that our next pope will not go into the conclave as a papabile ( a.k.a. papal candidate.)
ReplyDeleteThe late Pope John Paul II was not at the top of the list of papabile when he entered the conclave that elected him.
His election came as a great surprise to almost everyone.....not the least of all to Pope John Paul II himself!!!
Unfortunately, people tend to thing of the papal election in terms of its being a secular/political enterprise instead of what it really is...the grave religious responsibility of choosing the man whom Roman Catholics regard as the successor of Peter and Christ's universal vicar on earth.
Apparently, there is an old saying at the Vatican that applies very well here:
"He who enters the conclave as pope leaves it as a cardinal."
An interview with a Christian academic who has reached some of the same conclusions as you Constance, about the return to Nazism, via a somewhat different route....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWGlEcgKkFw&feature=em-uploademail
Ruth, Dr. Gene Veith wrote Modern Fascism in 1993. He is a prolific Christian writer.
ReplyDeleteThese are his credentials.
http://alliancenet.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086_CHID559376_CIID1414980,00.html
He has said that that he is proudest of that book. Thank you for posting that latest information from him. We discussed him on this blog before.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/
ReplyDeletediscusses the lightning strike and leans to natural explanations, but notes lightning is a sign of divine judgement. The natural explanation seems odd, since there are lightning rods all over the place.
MOST INTERESTING ARE THE TWO OTHER TIMES LIGHTNING STRUCK, described in the article. One was during Vatican I precisely when the dogma of papal infallibility was being promulgated.
The second was Dec. 22, AD 1938, striking near the then pope but leaving him unharmed.
So I went looking to see what was going on then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany#Reichskonkordat
seems this was after repeated attempts to get an anti Nazi encyclical draft to the pope had failed, due to machinations of his underlings, which was after Eugene Pacelli, eventual Pope John the XXIII had persuaded him not to denounce kristallnacht some months before.
By the time of the lightning strike it was evident that that draft was never going to get to the pope to finish and promulgate in time for it to be of much use. It may or may not have been on his desk at his death.
So again, a lightning strike which does not affect the pope either personally, or interfere with a religious ceremony or promulgation of a doctrine, which would seem to be a slam against elements other than the pope himself.
Thank you, Anonymous at 2:41 PM - I might have known you folks would be aware of him... I'll enjoy looking at his site. What is the opinion here of Intelligent Design? It was one of the things that brought me back to Jesus Christ, so I have a real fondness for it, but I gather there are some Christians that are somewhat suspicious of the Discovery Institute. What think you? - if it's not too off topic...
ReplyDelete"The natural explanation seems odd, since there are lightning rods all over the place."
ReplyDeleteIncluding one at the top of St Peters!
"after Eugene Pacelli, eventual Pope John the XXIII had persuaded him not to denounce kristallnacht some months before"
Pacelli was the future Pius XII (and not so far in the future), not John XXIII.
oops, sorry, my goof.
ReplyDelete"MOST INTERESTING ARE THE TWO OTHER TIMES LIGHTNING STRUCK, described in the article."
ReplyDeleteThe top of St Peter's is the highest point around and it is going to get struck by lightning many times per year given Rome's climate. It is not legitimate to single out two instances while failing to interpret the scores of others.
apparently since lightning rods went in long ago, such strikes have been minimized to being noteworthy. The article said that this had happened only three times since and incl. Vatican I. that is hardly several times per year.
ReplyDeletehi, this is tony in vt.,..i have not read any of the comments here yet,but the first thing that crossed my mind was that this wasn't a real lightening bolt but rather a man-ufactured one and that this whole thing is part of a script kinda like lemessieur's armegeddon script, and technological prowess is at work here to deceive.......and to discredit christianity and bible prophecy overall etc.....214
ReplyDeletescratch the 214 thing
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this means anything, but a friend passed on to me this post on a prophesy website: www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/virgin-mary-wicked-plan-within-the-vatican-to-destroy-the-catholic-church/. Constance, I would be interested in your take on this.
ReplyDeleteJohn, do you really believe this guy is channeling God? If so I want to tell you about messages someone received from a UFO.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I didn't get down to the bottom. This guy thinks he is channeling Mary, the Mother of God. If you even have to give this character a second thought, you need to re-evaluate your knowledge of the New Age movement.
ReplyDeleteMeteorite crashes in Russia, injures 150
ReplyDelete"apparently since lightning rods went in long ago, such strikes have been minimized to being noteworthy. The article said that this had happened only three times since and incl. Vatican I. that is hardly several times per year."
ReplyDeleteThat's untrue; the article (at johnsanidopoulos.com) actually said "With St. Peter's massive size, there is no doubt that lightning would strike it often. We actually do know of a few cases in history."
If a building as tall as St Peters located in a climate like Rome's had really been struck by lightning only three times in 150 years then it would be a statistical anomaly so extraordinary as to be the most convincing argument ever to secular people for the existence of God!
Physicist
"We actually do know of a few cases in history" focus on that word FEW.
ReplyDeleteChristine, the meaning of that word FEW is that other lightning strikes on St Peters were not deemed worthy of mention, presumably because they did not coincide with significant ecclesiastical events. You say "The article said that this had happened only three times since" but it actually said "With St. Peter's massive size, there is no doubt that lightning would strike it often. We actually do know of a few cases in history."
ReplyDeleteyou are trying to read into the text a specific that is not there.
ReplyDelete"few" can mean as little as three.
http://ask.metafilter.com/65951/How-many-is-a-few
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/few
abovetopsecret blog came up with a fourth incident wherein an arm was lopped off a statue in the colonnade. putting a new lightning rod because of several strikes was mentioned before, but how many and when and affecting what wasn't specified in another post on that blog.
still, when you have timing like these events it is significant.
It has been suggested by those loonies Tom Horn and Steve Quayle that there might be a secret ongoing pattern of using the Malachy prophecy of the popes as a guide to selecting popes. Oddly though it says the last pope - not given a number so possibly any number of popes might intervene between this one and "Petrus Romanus" - will shepherd his flock during a great tribulation, Horn and Quayle think he is going to be the false prophet or the antichrist. Makes no sense.
Listening to all this "lightning bolt" talk, it makes me wonder how the earthquake at the time of Christ's death, and the tearing of the curtain in the Temple was perceived. One can only imagine what the "buzz" was like then. While many probably saw this as a sign from God, others worked hard to put together an alternative explanation for the event.
ReplyDeleteChristine,
ReplyDeleteThe website you quoted said "With St. Peter's massive size, there is no doubt that lightning would strike it often. We actually do know of a few cases in history."
The website goes on to quote three cases from history, and I agree with you that "a few" can mean three. But that is not the question. The question is what "often" means in this quote.
I repeat: in line with what your source says, but differently from what you say, St Peters is going to get hit quite a few times annually. If it DIDN'T then something supernatural would be going on!
Physicist
Why is it so many people want the easy way to figure out what is going on around them. Instead of looking at the resignation of the head of the Catholic church in the historical context of the New Age movement, which would require serious analysis, people want to think about natural events in a symbolic way. The former would require putting in serious effort and the latter just says I know something you don't know about symbolic thinking. I'm waiting to see some serious thinking about destruction of the Catholic church in a New Age context if anyone here has looked at that. I'm looking forward to the show on Saturday to add to what I already know.
ReplyDeleteHey 1041am, if there are reasons other han those stated why the Pope is resigning them it takes top notch journalism to ferret them out, not a better knowledge of the New Age movement.
ReplyDeleteThe 'Malachy' prophecy of the Popes attributed to Malachy (who died in 1148) made its first known appearance in 1595. It fitted the Popes to that date so brilliantly that either Malachy was a remarkable prophet or it was a forgery produced just before 1595. Which? Well, the accuracy of fit to the Popes declines enormously after 1595; the prophecies are worded very vaguely and the fit is far more of a strain. If this were a genuine 12th century prophecy there would be no reason for this decline. I conclude that it is a forgery and can safely be ignored.
ReplyDelete1. okay, what does the pope's resignation mean in context of the new age movement? personally I can't see what it has to do with it.
ReplyDeletebut then I miss stuff.
2. the website is arguing that SINCE the edifice is large and tall THEREFORE IT MUST have had many hits, however THIS IS MERE DEDUCTION NOT HISTORICAL CERTAINTY.
For historical certainty the writer is limited to "few."
I am not gonna argue about this. The juxtaposition of event and lightning on those occasions would be significant whether lightning was normal or not.
OK Christine, the onus is now on you to show that St Peters has been hit ONLY 3 times by lightning since the 19th century. Do this and you will have everything you need to convince atheists that God exists, good luck.
ReplyDeleteChristine 4:22, here something very clear and open in the context of the New Age movement is taking place and you see nothing. You do know this blog is about the New Age movement I hope. It would be interesting to know what you believe the New Age movement is about. Please share your thoughts.
ReplyDeletewhich part of the NAM do you blame on the pope's resignation? the occult paranormal etc. practices part or the NWO part? Why don't you share your thoughts about what the NAM is about? definitions I have posted before which are consistent with Constances's statements and all research by Christians and secularists, have been denounced as ignorant by someone anonymous here, probably you the same person has so far refused to give his or her definition. So why don't you share your thoughts?
ReplyDeleteNAM is multifaceted. "spiritual" and political. also co opts technically irrelevant things like medicine and so forth.
Ironically, NAM/NWO undercurrents can be back of rabid nationalism and of antinationalism depending on what serves their purposes at the moment.
7.26pm, you say that "something very clear and open in the context of the New Age movement is taking place" and you request that Christine "share [her] thoughts" but you don't do the same.
ReplyDeleteI (a protestant) have no reason to doubt that Pope Benedict resigned for the reasons that he (and his brother, expanding on Benedict's letter) gave. If you give me such a reason then I am willing to change my mind.
Please share your thoughts.
I LOVED the comment of ANONYMOUS 9:27 . . . "alternative explanation . . ."
ReplyDeleteRegarding yesterday's meteor strike over Russia, this is an interesting video:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM-VM4AcBo0&list=UUPejB1cCtTCwzi9yk10CR3g&index=2
or
http://tinyurl.com/ct5gg3a
Constance
I can't say enough good things about Dr. Ben Carson's speech this year to the National Prayer Breakfast. They have had shaky and apostate speakers in the past. He sounded like the genuine Christian item!
ReplyDeleteWatch the video. I am trying to figure out how to embed it to my spot. Google Blogger seems to have changed the "how to" aspect of that -- or maybe I just plain forgot it!
Constance
look at the bottom right hand corner of the video when it is running to see if there is a youtube logo. If so, click on it and you will play the video on youtube. Then use the embed function under the share button, it gives you a URL to put in your blog message square.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous 7:41 "Destruction of the Church in a New Age context."
ReplyDeleteFOSTER BAILEY, THINGS TO COME (LUCIS TRUST) PAGES 98-102, 159
Alice A. Bailey, Externalisation of the Hierarchy, page 548 et al
Many more, but those are right off the top of my head.
Constance
From Destiny of the Nations [(c) 1949 by Lucis Trust, 1974, 5th prtng, Fort Orange Press, Albany, NY; p 59]:
ReplyDeleteItaly has a sixth ray soul and hence her devotion to her past and to the ancient "glory which was Rome" (for this is closely tied up with the memory aspect of the soul) and to the concept of the restoration of the Roman Empire. But as it is the soul ray which is upon this stream of ray influence, it is interesting to note that Italy carries forward her plans with very little hate and with the minimum of persecution and of resentment; she stands steadily for peace, no matter what the people may believe under the influence of national propaganda and the theories of the newspapers. Her motto, esoterically stated, is, as you know: "I carve the Paths." This will be true eventually in the spiritual as well as in the literal sense. Rome was the great road builder and road maker of Europe in the far distant past; today the British race (who are largely reincarnated Romans and hence the friendly feeling which basically exists between the two countries in spite of outer appearance) are the original railroad makers. This is all upon the material side. Upon the spiritual side, as I told you in an earlier book, the whole field of religion will be reinspired and reoriented from Rome because the Master Jesus will again take hold of the Christian Church in an effort to respiritualize it and to reorganize it. From the chair of the Pope of Rome, the Master Jesus will attempt to swing that great branch of the religious beliefs of the world again into a position of spiritual power and away from its present authoritative and temporary political potency.
Fireballs reported in skies above Cuba and California
ReplyDeletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/9875149/Fireballs-reported-in-skies-above-Cuba-and-California.html
To Shani @ 5:28 AM:
ReplyDeleteWelcome to the blog!!!
York Cathedral in England, supposedly well protected by lightning conductors, was struck by lightning and badly damaged by a resulting fire in 1984 three days after an ultra-liberal bishop, who publicly questioned the material Virgin Birth and Resurrection, had been consecrated there.
ReplyDeleteI have jokingly referred to liberal theology as "aka atheism" but that isn't far off.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I am Eastern Orthodox since AD 2008 I don't doubt the salvation of those who truly believe in Jesus and are not EO, and the behavior of The Holy Light, which will after lighting the Patriarch's candles go out and light lamps and candles outside the church on its own, and the fact that God would make disciplinary statements in actions like the lightning bolts, shows that He is
ReplyDeleteinvolved with the other "denominations" and individuals.
Two big advantages of EO - it is the original unbroken chain of organization Jesus founded, and its keeping a fixed liturgy means that despite whatever might get taught now and then that is off kilter in some way, the truth is kept unchangeable in the liturgics if you understand the language and pay attention or study it in translation. Absent some special ecumenical council, these liturgics can't be changed or tinkered with or not much. The variations are seasonal and set to the Typicon of many many centuries ago.
Christine you can find the unchangeable truth in the gospels and the rest of scripture. Chrystostom's liturgy reeks of the culture of early medieval Byzantium, and asking Africans (say) to forgo the exuberance of their spontaneous modes of worship in order to chant that stuff is like Victorian missionaries demanding that they wear jacket and tie on Sundays. God knew what he was doing when he saw that the New Testament did not prescribe an exact liturgy.
ReplyDeleteRome too claims that it is "the original unbroken chain of organization Jesus founded" yet it differs from Orthodoxy. Thrash it out with them before making that claim to others.
Rome's claims fail when examined by history and canons of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. Orthodoxy's do not. Rome introduced the filioque to the creed. Rome introduced a supremacy of one bishop over all others that was alien to the organizational style of Orthodoxy which was equal bishops and in some locations for convenience one patriarch over bishops in a region, but no one over the whole church.
ReplyDeletehttp://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/guettee_thepapacy.pdf I am reading this now, its a good overview, though I have doubts about the claim of Linus being the first Roman bishop but perhaps Guette will prove this farther on in the article or book.
Rome to this day falsely claims Orthodoxy went into schism from Rome, when this NEVER happened, rather, Rome excommunicated the east, or at least the Constantinople Patriarch, and this was not even entirely legal by RC rules see Lee Penn on this
http://www.leepenn.org/PapalBull1054.html
and it takes a Synod to excommunicate a Patriarch anyway. Which by the way one of the Ecumenical Councils did do, it excommunicated pope Honorius, and the RC accepts that council!
It was the real history of the Great Schism of AD 1054 along with some Scriptural problems and the greater strength of Orthodox Holy Water that made me choose Orthodoxy.
Protestant complaints against style of worship (candles, incense formal liturgical structure) are also de facto complaints against the service in the OT Holy Temple. The Orthodox use a clear epiklesis in the Holy Eucharist, asking The Holy Spirit to make the change, rather than depending almost entirely on the priest's power through ordination like the RC, and all requests to saints incl. "pray for us" while this is often absent in RC.
As Franky Schaeffer said in defending his conversion to Orthodoxy, the history is such that you could have an atheist saying that all Christians are deluded, but the ones who have been deluded in the same way for the longest time are the Orthodox. When you study it, Orthodoxy wins out over Rome.
chapter three of the Guette book gets into history.
ReplyDelete"Protestant complaints against style of worship (candles, incense formal liturgical structure) are also de facto complaints against the service in the OT Holy Temple."
ReplyDeleteThat is a wholly arbitrary claim that you have either made up or are repeating verbatim from some source of yours. There is no prescribed liturgy in the NT and in any case the earliest congregations were based on the synagogue not the Temple. Aren't you forgetting that the early church was persecuted and largely met in private homes? Ancient is not synonymous with Apostolic.
and why would such house church situations exclude incense and candles? since the offering of the Eucharist was comparable to the Temple worship, which was still in existence and to which synagogues were subordinate until AD 70, why would there not be some continuation?
ReplyDeleteJesus is described as our High Priest in The Epistle to the Hebrews which draws on concepts in OT, and no it is not arbitrary or drawing on some sources. Revelation shows a worship service going on in heaven, which is a basis for conducting worship on earth after Christianity was legal and open, and to some extent before.
The Fathers of the Nicene Council (which by the way did not set the canon which was already set by custom of useage see what is quoted from OT and NT in Ireneaus and other pre Nicene writings) were men who were from the days of persecution.
Irenaeus himself was disciple of Polycarp who was disciple of St. John the Apostle. Justin Martyr and others from this time refer to The Eucharist as not ordinary bread and wine but the flesh and blood of Christ.
The synagogues would not be making offerings of incense since that was for the priests to do, but the Temple service was in everyone's mind, and a NEW High Priest, Jesus, was now present, and St. Paul says in Hebrews that a change of priesthood mandates a change in law. St. Paul refers to those who serve the Temple not being able to eat of the Christian table, making these comparable.
Seems to me that God is worthy of being worshipped with gold and silver and incense and so forth, but of course He is more interested in the hearts (innermost minds as well as feelings) of mankind, and not pious hypocrisies.
Naturally the church services evolved, but the foundation model would have been that of The Temple since they were worshipping God Incarnate Who is also The New and Forever High Priest.
The staffing of FEMA camps
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeFqQYMDRxs&list=UUPejB1cCtTCwzi9yk10CR3g
"Naturally the church services evolved, but the foundation model would have been that of The Temple since they were worshipping God Incarnate Who is also The New and Forever High Priest."
ReplyDeleteBut there is no prescription for Temple liturgy in the OT. There is minute prescription in Mosaic law for how to perform the sacrifices, but nothing on when to sing a psalm, what prayer to pray when to pray, etc. So if you want to base church liturgy on that then you are basing it on something known only through Hebrew tradition and not scripture.
Fine details like that are what would evolve and change here and there, but the overall picture is shown in bits and pieces for instance, in the Psalms there are some called a song of the ascents, these were to be sung when approaching the altar, there was a cycle of priests, two weeks each, during which time they were celibate, etc.
ReplyDeleteAs for lack of info in Scripture, well, Hebrew tradition about history is hardly something bad in the usual sense of unscriptural, because it fleshes out the picture Scripture hints without contradicting it.
Archaeology and animal husbandry and reports by travellers flesh out the picture of how vinyards and other agriculture and shepherding were done. The existence of these is mentioned in Scripture, the taken for granted as everyone knew them left out. Exodus says to compound the ingredients of the incense and Holy Oil of Anointing according to the art of the apothecary, leaving out instructions as to what that was - this would be known to apothecaries. Sew this, carve that, tools mentioned how to use them, how to do this? not mentioned. Existing knowledge relied on.
Which psalms to use where might change, but just as in The Temple they were the primary thing, so in Orthodox liturgy they are the core and main thing. The fact of structuring and minimizing of sermon and maximizing of teaching through symbolic actions and specific words in Scripture is what would be lifted from The Temple service, also the processing in with The New Testament, and a ritual of kissing it, is straight out of the synagogue and likely Temple ceremony of procession with The Torah scroll and kissing it. The use of crown circlets on the couple at weddings is lifted from the Jewish wedding ceremony.
However much you protest Christine the fact is that in Eastern Orthodoxy you can type out the exact words to be used in each service in the correct order for every day of the year. Yet there is no such prescription for any service or ceremony in either the Old or New Testaments. This liturgy is treated in practice as on a par with scripture, yet it is not, for it was written many centuries later when the church was already mature.
ReplyDeleteThe psalms of ascent were for pilgrims "going up" to Jerusalem, not for priests going up to the altar.
The liturgy developed of course. but almost all of it is from Scripture, and teaches doctrine. you pray what you believe, you believe what you pray, as they say. A pattern of selected OT passages through the year was read in the synagogues, which probably inspired this style.
ReplyDelete"Many scholars believe these psalms were sung by the worshippers as they ascended up the road to Jerusalem to attend the three pilgrim festivals (Deuteronomy 16:16) or by the kohanim (priests) as they ascended the fifteen steps to minister at the Temple in Jerusalem.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Ascents
http://www.biblicalresearch.info/page112.html details several theories, incl. ascent within the Temple, but settles on a spiritual interpretation.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/655450/jewish/What-is-a-Song-of-Ascents.htm
A Jewish source which has several explanations, incl. the stairs and levels in the Temple, and frankly why could not more than one be correct?
The issue of detail like set material per day and what that is, is not the same as the general phenomenon of structure that is geared to time of year, and the vast majority of which is unchanging throughout the year, only a few modifications thrown in.
There is some indication that the earliest services were more variable and freewheeling, and that structure set in more heavily to combat the possibility of heretics exploiting freedom or lack of structure to their purposes. Or overly worldly style getting established such as is happening in many churches RC and Anglican and evangelical now.
But the earliest liturgy is ascribed to St. James, which would mean that the effort to structure the service goes way back. St. Basil's built on that and St. John Chrysostom built on that. Probably there was much more room for variation thrown in.
The phrasing "let us lift our hearts up to the Lord" and "it is meet and right to give Him praise" goes back to the second century I think.
"But the earliest liturgy is ascribed to St. James"
ReplyDeleteYes, and you know what? The early church decided that it was not scripture but that his letter was. There's a reason for that.
Is the Pope stepping down due to pedophelia charges?
ReplyDeletehttp://itccs.org
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/11/world/pope-benedict-declaration/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3A+Top+Stories%29
Celine O'carroll shared Christopher Everard's photo
ReplyDeleteThe guy in the red ring exposed the highest corruption inside the pope's own office about 10 months ago... Ignored generally by the BBC, I reported on it in depth...
Yes, it is true... THE PEDO-POPE RESIGNS under pressure of having his diaries and Papal documents stolen by his butler and published in the Independent Media. First Berlusconi - and now the Pope - how the mighty masons fall... This German former Hitler Youth wicked arsehole was exposed in FEED YOUR BRAIN MAGAZINE protecting the interests of Pedo-Priests and also charging 10,000euros to celebrities who wanted a photo opportunity with him... Under pressure of having yet another vatican banker sacked for embezzlement, the old codger is hanging up his clogs!
A pompous message published in quasi translated Latin reads: "I (the pope) have to communicate to you a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry..." Bollocks...
Full newsfeed lies here:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/11/world/....+Top+Stories%29
Read more: http://www.donaldmarshall.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=8&page=4#ixzz2LGH4KPoQ
"The early church decided that it [the Liturgy of St. James] was not scripture but that his letter was. There's a reason for that."
ReplyDeletea liturgy is NEVER considered "Scripture," it CONTAINS Scripture. you really don't understand what you are talking about.
Nonsense Christine, scripture could perfectly well prescribe an exact liturgy if God wanted it to. But it doesn't.
ReplyDeleteThe only time Scripture provides an exact Liturgy is in Exodus where God says what to tell your kids during Passover supper, and in the NT where Jesus says "this is My Body...this is My Blood...." and
ReplyDeleteto baptize "In The Name of The Father, and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit."
everything else is built up around these things. Praise and worship are stated as to be done, exact formulation open to variation, but once you have something like The Psalms you have something to fall back on.
St. Paul at least once phrases statements in a way that resemble some kind of liturgical formula of speaking probably used during worship and/or baptism.
But my original point was, that since you now have a liturgy that is not open to variation outside the Typicon's minor changes and additions per special days, and which Scripture to use, you have NO ROOM for false teaching to be built into it or wierd conduct like those modern masses and evangelical mega church scenes. This gives stability. If something a tad off does sneak into the sermon which doesn't take up much time, or into private talk, the content of the liturgy and formulaic prayers and akathists would make up for this if the listener is savvy enough to notice.
These are also things that can be drawn on to argue for what the teaching of The Church really is, as this must stay the same and not "develop," like in RC, and match the first several centuries, if an argument develops.
The Creed as it stands now probably started as a core of variable ways of saying the same things, but stabilized in one form to the careful exclusion of possible heretical double minded useage to exclude heresies of the time.
http://rt.com/news/soviet-officer-awarded-dresden-530/
ReplyDeletethis guy prevented world war 3 in 1983.
"my original point was, that since you now have a liturgy that is not open to variation outside the Typicon's minor changes and additions per special days, and which Scripture to use, you have NO ROOM for false teaching to be built into it"
ReplyDeleteAnd you also have no room for any spontaneity in worship, or any allowance for cultural customs different from those of medieval Byzantium.
If God wanted zero variation then He would have prescribed a word-for-word liturgy in the New Testament. But He didn't, did He?
"The Vatican’s No. 3 official on Tuesday (May 29) condemned the theft and publication of secret papal documents as an “immoral act of unheard-of gravity.” "
ReplyDeletehttp://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-05-29/national/35458342_1_vatican-archbishop-angelo-becciu-paolo-gabriele
if these people consider leaking documents to be immoral to an unheard of degree, they really got their priorities messed up.
Anonymous 9:35
ReplyDeleteThe ITCCS was founded by a defrocked priest of the United Church of Canada named Kevin Annett.
Kevin Annett is a defrocked priest who had taken-up a second career as a con-artist/grifter. Annett has convinced a bunch of unwitting people that he is the saviour of Indigenous people everywhere, and the only person who is working on their behalf. This is not true- rather, he is using their cause for his own personal gain.
Kevin is most famous for his faking of the discovery of a ‘mass grave’ at the Six Nations Reserve in Brandford, Ontario. Apparently, he is pulling the same con at other reserves- one has to feel sorry for all of the people who he is building false hope for.
Curiously, Kevin Is an International Socialist, and has deep connections to the people who were involved in hijacking the occupy movement. Some of his relations include Winnie Ng, Sakura Saunders, and Judy Rebick.
http://www.genuinewitty.com/people/kevin-annett/
_____________________________
Responses ( of United Church ) to claims made by Kevin Annett.
http://www.bc.united-church.ca/content/kevin-annett
_____________________________
As stated above, the people that are part of Annett's radical network is Judy Rebick Judy Rebick is pals with Miriam Samos - a.k.a. the self professed "witch" Starhawk.
Scroll down at following link to:
Video: Starhawk speaks with Judy Rebick, author of Transforming Power - from the Personal to the Political.
http://www.starhawk.org/writings/audio-video.html
http://transformingpower.ca/en/book
___________________________
Also...
Ryerson Professor Winnie Ng Suports Notable Con-Artist Kevin Annett!
We have a new actor to discuss in the International Socialist’s cast-of-characters. Today I introduce to you Winnie Ng, a professor at Ryerson University who currently holds the chair for the CAW-Sam Gindin Chair in Social Justice and Democracy. Winnie’s seat was previously held by, darling of the Black Bloc Judy Rebick!
http://www.genuinewitty.com/2012/05/08/ryerson-professor-winnie-ng-suports-notable-con-artist-kevin-annett/
___________________________
cont.
ReplyDeleteThen there is George Golloway who was accused of involvement in the Oil for Food scandal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Galloway
KEVIN ANNETT AND HIS MARXIST ROOTS
Many years ago, back near the days of the Waffle, Kevin Annett joined a small, but exclusive, circle of Marxists called the International Socialists. Officially, Kevin has left this group and is no longer a socialist- that said, he has more connections to this group of Trotskyists than Trotsky would if he were still alive himself.
There are many reasons I dug into the Annett case. First, because I was disgusted by the video I saw of him at Occupy Toronto pulling what he called children’s bones out of his pocket and waving them around like show-and-tell. But, more importantly, because Annett is the key to exposing the nefarious actions of Canada’s Marxist/Trotskyist community.
You see, the Marxists believe that they can only get in-power through revolution- and, their Trotskyist philosophies say that the only way to do this is through violence. What better of a way to encourage Canada’s indigenous communities to rise-up than to sensationalize stories of the residential schools with stories of mass graves?
They are also using environmentalism as a tool for this. Watermelon organizations (green on the outside, red inside) like the George Soros/TIDES Foundation funded Indigenous Environmental Network and Macdonald Stainsby’s Tar Sands protests are great examples. Canada is at war, but the majority of Canadians don’t know it yet.
Take the Endbridge pipeline as an example. If the pipeline goes through BC then the oil will flow to China- and, if it doesn’t, the oil will flow to the US. Canada is the new Belgium- a country where other countries fight their wars. Also think of it as the new Afghanistan- because, if the Americans didn’t control that country, it could also be used to pipe oil to China.
I’ve covered Annett’s connections to most of the people on this chart before. But, there are a couple of new players- and, they are both heavy-hitters in the socialist world. Let’s start with Barry Weisleder- he was an original member of the International Socialists, a leader of the Revolutionary Marxist Group, and currently a leader of the League of Socialist Action. Weisleder was also an NDP Member of Parliament for Thornhill Ontatrio- that is, until his ass was kicked to the curb for being too radical.
Here’s a video of Weisleder enthusiastally introducing Annett at a Socialist Action meeting late last year:
Here’s a video of Galloway enthusiastically promoting Kevin Annett:
http://www.genuinewitty.com/2012/07/11/kevin-annett-and-his-socialist-roots/
Planned Parenthood Wisconsin Closes Four Clinics Due To State Funding Cuts
ReplyDeletePlanned Parenthood of Wisconsin announced the closure of four family planning health centers on Monday as a result of the state legislature's elimination of funding to the health care provider.
http://tinyurl.com/bg29e43
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/02/global-elitism-character-traits-of.html
ReplyDeleteexcellent article.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/21/pope-retired-amid-gay-bishop-blackmail-inquiry/print
ReplyDeleteHomosexual network at the Vatican, Yes; reason for the Pope's resignation, No
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=968
Newt slithers and wriggles to seem more conservative, truly American, etc. etc.?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if he is going to run for presidential nomination again.
"George Washington is unique in our history.
The historian James Thomas Flexner called him “The Indispensable Man.” Thomas Jefferson said he had a character “of which the history of the world furnishes no other example.” In fact, without George Washington, there would be no United States of America.
Washington was the only man who could have guided the Continental Army through a long and difficult war, repeatedly defying failure by sheer force of will.
For eight years, he held the Army together through very slim hopes.
Washington was perhaps the only man who, after winning that war, would have resigned his commission, ignored calls to become king, and returned home to his farm, Mount Vernon.
King George III, told of Washington’s plan, commented that if true it “placed him in a light the most distinguished of any man living” and made him “the greatest character of the age.”
Washington was the only man who could have been elected unanimously to serve as our first president. And he was one of the few who would have restrained himself to two terms, setting a precedent for the presidency that held until the mid-20th century.
His presence in his time and place was truly providential."
http://www.newsmax.com/live/Gingrich-Lecture/?s=al&promo_code=128EA-1
from newsmax.com email.
Have you noticed that Obama is going to be in Jerusalem for 3 days just ahead of Passover?
ReplyDeleteConstance,
ReplyDeleteWhat are your thoughts about the Weston A. Price Foundation? Are they part of the N.A. movement or something benign?
What about the self-proclaimed Catholic "theologian" Ron L. Conte of Catholic Planet? He's great at poking at others, but is so bold as to date Christ's return as being in the 26th century. Is he a bit player in the New Age,too?
http://www.herescope.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteNon habemus papam.
ReplyDeleteTexas girls to wear burqas
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wnd.com/2013/02/students-made-to-wear-burqas-in-u-s-state/
I wonder if the creators of this curriculum on Islam, would likewise require girls to "dress up" as nuns, were they to study Roman Catholicism. Somehow I think NOT !!
I've lost my respect this time. Sorry, Constance.
ReplyDeletePFM
European Commission Announces “Full Engagement” In Agenda 21
ReplyDeleteOn February 27, the European Commission published a document announcing it will take on itself the “lead role” in global environmental governance through “a unified policy framework”- in effect aligning itself with Agenda 21.
In the 30-page document titled A Descent Life For All the EC says it aspires to a “leading role” in an “overarching framework” towards global governance. The commiszars profess to care about worldwide poverty, environmental degradation and other no-brainers, carefully handpicked by an elite-class prepared to use any and every pretext behind which power is being centralized at the international level at the expense of sovereignty at the national one.
“The world has undergone enormous change over recent years”, the document reads, “including major shifts in the global economic and political balance, increased global trade, climate change and depletion of natural resources, technological change, economic and financial crises, increased consumption and price volatility of food and energy consumption, population changes and migration, violence and armed conflict and natural and man-made disasters, and increased inequalities.”
For more....
http://explosivereports.com/
It has been suggested by those loonies Tom Horn and Steve Quayle that there might be a secret ongoing pattern of using the Malachy prophecy of the popes as a guide to selecting popes.
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شركة الراقى لكشف تسريبات المياه
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تقوم الشركة بتوفير أنواع مختلفة من طوارد الحمام مثل الفزاعة أو الشباك وغيرها بالإضافة إلى الأجهزة الحديثة في طرد الحمام مثل الأجهزة الصوتية، والتي يقوم بتركيبها فريق عمل خبير.
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