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| Farmer's blogspot today re Vatican and global authority on economy. |
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| CATHOLIC NEWS SERVICE ARTICLE 10-24-2011 |
Stay tuned!
CONSTANCE
News and views of Constance Cumbey concerning "Radical Middle", New Age Movement, Communitarianism, "planetary humanism," "global governance," European Union, Javier Solana, Jeremy Rifkin, "New Age Politics," law in the USA, combined with life in general -- sometimes humorous, sometimes not!
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Monday, October 24, 2011
Has Vatican called for creation of a "World Authority" on global finance? If accurate, this is OMINOUS!
As my readers know, I despise Catholic bashing, just as I do Jew bashing, indiscriminate Moslem bashing, and fundamentalist Protestant bashing. However, equally true is that there has definitely been proven infiltration just about everywhere in all of the above circles. I took a peek at Farmer's website this morning. As my readers know, Bjorn Freiberg and I have had our serious differences. However, he has definitely performed valuable research over the years and I'm not going to ignore a call of "fire" just because I don't like the particular fireman. Today, he posts alarming information that I'm going to check out and suggest you do so also: that at least one Vatican spokesman, Cardinal Peter Turkson, has issued a call for a "supranational authority" to deal with global financial issues. Cardinal Turkson is a new name to me, so I'm asking our Catholic regulars for more information here. Lee Penn, himself a Catholic, has expressed many concerns to me about the Vatican's current direction. I would appreciate feedback on this and trust we can share relevant information about it here.
It seems as though it is one of the BIG news stories of the day. Here's a picture of the Catholic News Service report.
Stay tuned!
CONSTANCE
Stay tuned!
CONSTANCE
Farmer's post was the first place I saw it as I was busy in court, but this comes up on the google search engine:
ReplyDeleteNews for pope global financial authority
WSBT-TV
Vatican calls for a world financial authority
The Economic Voice - 1 hour ago
The Vatican has today issued a document calling for a financial institution with global authority. The document, 'Towards reforming the international ...
211 related articles
Vatican to call for global financial authority | Inquirer Business
Inquirer.net - 6 related articles
Vatican to call for global financial authority
freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2797054/posts
30 posts - 22 authors - Last post: 9 hours ago
“The global financial crisis showed the fragility of the current economic system and of the institutions associated with it,” the pope said in April. ...
Vatican to call for global financial authority | Inquirer Business
business.inquirer.net/.../vatican-to-call-for-global-financial-authority
5 days ago – “The global financial crisis showed the fragility of the current economic system and of the institutions associated with it,” the pope said in April. ...
Pope renews call for global financial authority - The Institute ...
www.igcsforum.org/showthread.php?t=2791
Mar 20, 2010 – Pope renews call for global financial authority studies in the vatican.
Vatican to call for global financial authority | NTN24 NEWS
www.ntn24.com/news/news/vatican-call-global-financial-authority
5 days ago – Vatican to call for global financial authority ... Pope Benedict XVI has repeatedly called for an "intervention" by governments to tame financial ...
Pope renews call for global financial authority - Catholic Culture
www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=5777
Pope renews call for global financial authority. RSS Facebook March 18, 2010. Today's worldwide financial crisis demonstrates the need for a new global ...
Pope calls for a global authority on economy | Reuters
www.reuters.com/.../us-pope-encyclical-idUSTRE5662VM20090707
Jul 7, 2009 – VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict called on Tuesday for a "world political authority" to manage the global economy and for more ...
Adventist Review : Pope Calls for a World Political Authority
www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2720
n response to the world financial crisis, Pope Benedict XVI has called for the formation ... This new “authority” would enforce global economic, environment and ...
Pope Calls for “World Political Authority” | Economy | theTrumpet ...
www.thetrumpet.com/?q=6323.4778.0.0
Jul 8, 2009 – Although the pope's condemnation of greed and selfishness as a central cause of the global financial crisis was accurate, it was his repeated ...
Global Financial Strategy - Pope to unveil financial info authority
www.gfsnews.com/article/709/1/
Dec 30, 2010 – The Vatican is set to announce the establishment of a new authority to investigate claims of money laundering in a bid to end its pariah ...
Pope urges 'world authority' to govern economy, finance - latimes.com
latimesblogs.latimes.com/.../pope-benedict-xvi-is-offering-a-solution-...
Jul 7, 2009 – Pope Benedict XVI is offering a solution for what ails the global economy: a "true world political authority" to manage it all. In a so-called ...
http://www.news.va/en/news/full-text-note-on-financial-reform-from-the-pontif
ReplyDeleteor
http://tinyurl.com/http-www-news-va-en-news-ful
POPE or ANTI-POPE????!!!!!
ReplyDeleteLEE PENN and I will be doing a radio program on this tomorrow night on MY PERSPECTIVE, internet radio at 4 p.m. Pacific time, 7 p.m. Eastern time.
ReplyDeleteCONSTANCE
LEE PENN and I will be doing a radio program on this tomorrow night on MY PERSPECTIVE, internet radio at 4 p.m. Pacific time, 7 p.m. Eastern time.
ReplyDeleteCONSTANCE
The Roman Catholic church already called for a world government two years ago. The 2009 Papal Encyclical 'Caritas in Veritate' had this to say: “there is a need… for a reform of the United Nations organisation… that… can acquire real teeth… there is urgent need of a true world political authority… vested with the effective power to ensure security for all… it would have to have the authority to ensure compliance with its decisions from all parties” (from paragraph 67).
ReplyDeleteCheck for yourself at the Vatican's own website:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate_en.html
An audio interview with Turkson discussing this document can be found here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=531806
The way the Huff Post phrases it is even more ominous:
ReplyDelete"The Vatican called Monday for radical reform of the world's financial systems, including the creation of a global political authority to manage the economy.
A proposal by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace calls for a new world economic order based on ethics and the "achievement of a universal common good."
http://tinyurl.com/3g8rgds
For futher clarification:
ReplyDelete"At a news conference Oct. 24, the Vatican spokesman, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, emphasized that the document was "not an expression of papal magisterium," but instead was an "authoritative note of a Vatican agency," the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. In that sense, he said, it would not be correct to report that "Pope Benedict says" what's in the document, he said."
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/st
ories/cns/1104173.htm
Regarding the info presented by anon @ 2:44pm:
ReplyDeleteThis is a convenient way of testing the waters -- have a Vatican spokesman, who it is now claimed is not really a Vatican spokesman, do the speaking and when/if there's public outrage say that is not really a papal message at all. This is a good way to get around the Pope speaking ex cathedra.
I've been aware of the language in the Caritas in Veritate for a while now, not long after it was announced. Now there's no doubt that this 2009 Encyclical is, by RCC definition, ex cathedra - the Pope purportedly speaking by 'divine authority.'
Observation note regarding "Occupy" movement and call for unification efforts by Vatican:
ReplyDeleteI've been monitoring the main global chat feed for the Occupy Wall Streeters. That story came up several times, and almost all of them are really against such a move.
My observation is that while the OWS people and New Agers share some common themes, they are not all on the same page in some rather significant areas, and this would be a good example of that.
The Beast hates the woman who rides
ReplyDeleteupon the beast.
The media will take any opportunity to distort anything that comes out of the Vatican. Go to the source (there are links in this article that makes very good points).
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=21986
Commentary on the document from the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.
ReplyDeletehttp://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/the-new-white-paper-from-the-pont-council-justice-and-peace-fr-z-rants-like-loon/#comment-302267
Here's another Catholic commentary on the document.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=21986
Further Catholic commentary on the document from the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.
ReplyDeletehttp://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/10/samuel-gregg-on-the-new-white-paper-from-the-pont-con-for-justice-and-peace/
The Vatican explicitly suggested UN political leadership in 2009 and this new 'white paper' also comes from the Vatican, even if it does not explicitly show an endorsement by Pope Benedict, desiring further UN involvement in world affairs - this time economic. The Vatican is either totally ignorant about the background/goals of the UN or it is complicit.
ReplyDeletePaul,
Regarding your comment about the woman who rides the beast, my take is that she is false Christianity as a whole.
Here's an interesting article with a Catholic perspective on the end times.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.michaeljournal.org/antichrist.asp
There are those being used, and those jockeying for the top spot, the ones to usher in there ideas to bring it all about. Everything will shift, shift some more, and shift again. Wilds swings. We are in a time like no other, the time before that great and horrible time. The time for all that are to make a choice, while it is still Today.
ReplyDeleteAs to what starting this response. SOme are used, some are jockeying. Who is to say who is what, but some are "useful idiots" and some are "provoking" yet all to move the pieces, setting the stage for what is yet to come. The time now will be a while, and then suddenly, HE COMES. Rejoice, watch, pray, be alert. Sound the alarms and know where you are. Grow in truth and love. For now is a time of shifting. Stand firm, be sober minded and alert. And Rejoice, for in all this, now that He comes. The times coming are both Horrible and Marvelous. Fret not, for what is, is and what must be must be. Will we point others t othe way, or will the shift with the sands. There is a time, an alarm and then what happens depends on the pieces, the moves, and whether or not there is an awakening and repentance that brings some strength, like Nivehah, before that time comes. And know this, it will come, it is just a matter of how and when.
Pope Benedict's XVI's Encyclical Letter from 2009 - Caritas in Veritate - is NOT an endorsement of world government or of the New World Order. Pope Benedict XVI is NOT the author of the document issued on October 24, 2011 by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. The fact that Benedict is not the author was noted by Vatican spokesman Frederico Lombardi, SJ. The link below is an excellent commentary on what the Pope said in Caritas in Veritate.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/jul/09070812
“In the view of Fr. Thomas J. Reese, a professor at Georgetown University in Washington and a former director of the magazine of the Jesuits of New York, ‘America,’ not only is the document released today by the Holy See ‘to the left of Barack Obama, it [is] to the left of Nancy Pelosi, and it [is] closer to views of the “Occupy Wall Street” movement than anyone in the U.S. Congress.’”
ReplyDeleteAnd this from a Jesuit yet!
Commentary on the Vatican's document on the New Age issued in 2003.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.michaeljournal.org/newage.htm
To Anonymous 10:38:
ReplyDeleteClearly you are unfamiliar with the Jesuits, Georgetown University, the Woodstock Institute, "Fr." Reese and "America" magazine. None of which are reliable sources for information/interpretation regarding the Catholic Church.
Lisa
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteI don't know how else to interpret Chapter Five #s 66 & 67, for example. Christians are in this world yet not of this world. Our Kingdom is not of this world. Jesus did not set out trying to change the Roman rule or law.
Following is the beginning of #67:
"In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence, there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations Organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth. One also senses the urgent need to find innovative ways of implementing the principle of the responsibility to protect[146] and of giving poorer nations an effective voice in shared decision-making. This seems necessary in order to arrive at a political, juridical and economic order which can increase and give direction to international cooperation for the development of all peoples in solidarity To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: for all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority..." [italics in original; bold added]
These sound like New Age goals to me. And, there are quite a few NA buzzwords as well: family of nations, global interdependence, felt need, etc.
By George Weigel
ReplyDeletePosted on October 24, 2011 4:13 PM
“Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish,” says voice therapist Lionel Logue to King George VI as the brassy Australian walks the about-to-be-crowned king through a particularly orotund part of the coronation ceremony in The King’s Speech. Logue’s comment nicely sums up the media and Catholic Left commentary on a “Note” released today by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, “Towards Reforming the International Financial and Monetary System in the Context of Global Public Authority.”
Drudge got it wrong: “Vatican Calls for ‘Central World Bank’.” CNBC got it wrong: “The Vatican called on Monday for the establishment of a ‘global public authority’ and a ‘central world bank’.” The best of the Italian Vaticanisti, Sandro Magister of L’espresso, linked Occupy Wall Street and “the Vatican at the Barricades” in the headline of his insta-commentary, a theme also harped upon by the deposed editor of America, Fr. Thomas Reese, S.J.
All of which was “rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.”
The truth of the matter is that “the Vatican” — whether that phrase is intended to mean the Pope, the Holy See, the Church’s teaching authority, or the Church’s central structures of governance — called for precisely nothing in this document. The document is a “Note” from a rather small office in the Roman Curia. The document’s specific recommendations do not necessarily reflect the settled views of the senior authorities of the Holy See; indeed, Fr. Federico Lombardi, the press spokesman for the Vatican, was noticeably circumspect in his comments on the document and its weight. As indeed he ought to have been. The document doesn’t speak for the Pope, it doesn’t speak for “the Vatican,” and it doesn’t speak for the Catholic Church.
Which, to their credit, the two senior officials of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace tried to make clear in presenting the document at a Roman press conference. Cardinal Peter Turkson, president of the council, said that the document was intended to “make a contribution which might be useful to the deliberations of the [upcoming] G-20 meeting.” Bishop Mario Toso, S.D.B., the secretary of the council, was just as subjunctive as his superior, saying that the document was intended to “suggest possible paths to follow.” Both Cardinal Turkson and Bishop Toso indicated, in line with long-standing Catholic social doctrine, that the Church-as-Church was incompetent to offer “technical solutions” but rather wished to locate public policy debates within the proper moral frameworks.
Cont...
ReplyDeleteTo suggest, as most of the immediate reporting and commentary did, that the Catholic Church was endorsing one or another set of proposals for re-ordering international finance, and was doing so as a matter of exercising its doctrinal authority, was a very bad category mistake, reflecting either the pitfalls of instant analysis in the 24/7 news cycle, progressivist-Catholic spin, or both.
As for the document itself, no morally alert person objects to bringing discussions of global finance within the ambit of moral reasoning; that is an entirely worthy intention. Catholics (and others) are entirely free to disagree — as many already have, and vociferously — with the specific suggestions of the Justice and Peace document. Father Reese and other advocates of the Catholic Revolution That Never Was will likely try to brand those critics “dissidents,” which is more “rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.” That the specific recommendations of the document reflect what will seem to many an uncritical internationalism of a distinctly Euro-secular provenance is an interesting matter that will doubtless be discussed, vigorously, within the Catholic family for some time to come. So will the tension between more recent Catholic discussions of transnational and international political authority and the core Catholic social-ethical principle of subsidiarity, with its settled opposition to political and economic megastructures and concentrations of power.
Bottom line (so to speak): This brief document from the lower echelons of the Roman Curia no more aligns “the Vatican,” the Pope, or the Catholic Church with Occupy Wall Street than does the Nicene Creed. Those who suggest it does are either grossly ill-informed or tendentious to a point of irresponsibility.
— George Weigel is a distinguished senior fellow of Washington’s Ethics and Public Policy Center, where he holds the William E. Simon Chair in Catholic Studies.
Craig, have you read the Catholic Church's document on the New Age? I put a link to a commentary on that document which highlights some of the major points in the document. You can access the main document via the link. By the way, it does not endorse New Age philosophy and warns of the dangers associated with the New Age Movement.
ReplyDeleteCathy,
ReplyDeleteThe aberrant streams within Protestantism warn of the dangers of New Age yet they simultaneously teach covert New Age doctrines themselves! This is especially prevalent in the hyper-charismatic streams.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm
ReplyDeleteCraig, the Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church does not teach New Age doctrines. If you can, please cite where the Cathechism of the Catholic Church endorses the New Age. It is possible for individual Catholics to embrace New Age philosophy, but their personal opinion is not part of the Church's Magisterial Teaching.
Link to the Catholic Catechism.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteI never said the Catechism teaches New Age. However, the Caritas in Veritate portion I quoted above (and elsewhere in that document) sure sounds New Age.
Craig, I read the encyclical letter in its entirety and don't share your interpretation. Pope Benedict XVI has written books and given many lectures as well as interviews with journalists not only as Pope, but also as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith before his election to the See of Peter. Yet, I haven't seen any publications accusing him of supporting New Age philosophy. If anything, he has the reputation of being an enforcer of orthodoxy!
ReplyDeleteCaritas in Veritate is not *consciously* New Age. But, since it calls for world government, and since a world government is prophesied and will be terrible (see the Book of Revelation), Satan no doubt sees Pope Benedict as one of his "useful idiots". Why can this man not understand the scriptures of the church he leads? Humanity was divided at Babel for our own safety. It is not for man to join what God has put asunder.
ReplyDeletequote: "if accurate, this is OMINOUS""
ReplyDeletec'mon, do you have to say this to attract people to your blog?.
in 2009,the pope called for new economic order. And since 1982, pope John Paul called for new economic order, i think it has been Vatican's agenda for a long time
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/world/europe/08pope.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/04/world/new-economic-system-called-for-by-the-pope.html
Rome not New Age? Prayers to angels and to Mary? The New Age is not so new.
ReplyDeleteI don't accept the Catholic claim that these prayers are merely 'through' Mary. Compare them with prayers offered though Jesus Christ, which implore God and end "through Jesus Christ our Lord". Catholic prayers to Mary do not ask her to pass our requests to the Godhead - they don't end with the words "through Mary our lady" and they ask HER to do things that in scripture are reserved for God.
I personally know Catholics who know and love the Lord Jesus Christ and acknowledge his divinity as the Son of the Creator, but who also pray to Mary. God is gracious to them, but someday they will have to make a choice.
Catholic prayers to Mary do not ask her to pass our requests to the Godhead - they don't end with the words "through Mary our lady" and they ask HER to do things that in scripture are reserved for God.
ReplyDeleteWhat part of "Holy Mary, Mother of God, PRAY FOR US SINNERS now and at the hour of our death" don't YOU understand?
Anon@6:27AM,
ReplyDeleteWhere did I say that EVERY prayer to Mary is improper in that way? You of course chose one that isn't. But many others by pious Catholics are. You can find them all over the internet and in books of Catholic prayers. Have you ever prayed such a prayer?
Anon@5:05AM
I am a Catholic. I believe my faith to be correct. With that said, a prophecy I read not that long ago says "Even my elite will be decieved and when they realize their error, it will be too late". I believe the solution to the current civil unrest and the financial crisis, is going to be the emergence of the AntiChrist. We are in some strange days. The Pope is embracing this current civil unrest and calling it good. He has said nothing as yet contrary to Catholic Dogma, but we are on very shaky ground and prayer is necessary on the part of all people, Christians, Jews and Muslims alike. Pax Tecum. Kathleen.
ReplyDeleteKathleen,
ReplyDeleteThat prophecy is basically Matthew 24:24. Far be it from me (a protestant) to disagree with it! Someday a world dictator will emerge from a world crisis. Whether it is this crisis, nobody knows. But I am sorry to see the Pope furthering the centralisation of power on a world scale. He needs to reread the Book of Revelation. As a Catholic, you need to try to tell him so.
As for the civil unrest - the financial sector has come up with very sophisticated new products in the last 15 years that it trades amongst itself, and when these bets go wrong they have the potential to take the US economy with them. If Lehman happens again on a larger scale then there simply is not enough money in the US economy to bail it out. These things therefore need regulating, but the financial sector lobbies and bribes politicians not to regulate them. Furthermore, things would not have gone wrong had not mortgages been advanced to people who obviously could never afford them but were irresponsible enough to snatch the deal. About the only people not guilty in all of that are persons who save responsibly. When the not-guilty are the very people set to be shafted most by the crisis, something is very wrong. Regulation of Wall St is VITAL, starting with a re-enactment of the Glass-Steagall Act, whose repeal is partly responsible.
So, without being New Age, I agree with the protestors that Wall St needs reining in. Probably I disagree with them about what social policies to enact.
Peace in Christ to you.
Well-spoken, peacebringer7! (10:25pm)
ReplyDeleteA time of shifting, a time of sifting.
Some who we think are enemies now will be allies, and vice versa.
All that can be shaken will be shaken. However....
"Those who trust in the LORD are like Mount Zion, which cannot be shaken but endures forever." - Psalm 125:1
HAIL MARY
ReplyDeleteHail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Anon 7:51,
ReplyDeleteI do believe Lehman was orchestrated with the net effect of siphoning money from the US citizens to the already well-heeled elites. It's the transfer of wealth Constance wrote about in Hidden Dangers. And, then crisis = opportunity -- this manufactured crisis presents the opportunity to change the entire system into a more economically feasible global one. Most of the participants in OWS (and we) are mere pawns in this process.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/idUS264245887020111024
ReplyDeletehttp://life.nationalpost.com/2011/10/21/vaticans-economic-statement-will-be-way-to-the-left-of-wall-street-financiers/
We are all in trouble. Pray, Pray, Pray!
I can't find the "Hail Mary" prayer in
ReplyDeletethe Bible. I see the words "Hail Mary
full of grace, the Lord is with thee"
And "Blessed art thou amongst women";
(which the angel said,)
and "blessed is the fruit of thy womb"'
(which her cousin Elisabeth said),
but all that other stuff I can't find.
I do see in all of the first three Gospels
where they told Jesus that his mother
and brethren were standing outside
and couldn't get in because of the
throng of people and He said: "Who
is my mother and who are my
brethren?"
And He gestured to all the disciples
around Him and said: " Whosoever
does the will of my father which is
in heaven, the same is my brother
and sister and mother."
So when you say "what part of Holy
Mary, mother of God, pray for us
sinners," etc., don't I understand,
I'd have to say none of it.
Here's Neale Donald Walsch, author of "Conversations With God", clarifying how he feels regarding the OWS movement yesterday:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theglobalconversation.com/blog/?p=579
[Tues, Oct. 25] <-- I'm gonna try to remember to start putting date stamps on my posts, for reference. I'm tired of "guessing" when something on this blog was posted.
What does the Hail Mary have to do with this topic? Pray means to request help, we are asking our Mother to request help from our Heavenly Father. And we are all sinners. Pax Tecum.
ReplyDeletePaul
ReplyDeleteAs a former catholic for 30 years, I must say, I completely agree with you.
The disciples asked Jesus to teach them
ReplyDeletehow to pray.
He gave them the "Our Father" prayer.
He didn't mention Mary.
Kathleen
ReplyDeleteWe do not have to ask anyone else for help, when we can ask the Lord ourselves.
There is no need to ask anyone to go to God for you.
Lehman orchestrated? About as likely as 9/11 being done by the CIA. But then, some people deludedly think it was...
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:38
ReplyDeleteYou are correct!!
You know who is Assyrian? If you trace his roots.
Sarkozy.
You don't no one said you had to. But if you think about it through the womb of the Blessed Mother Jesus came to us and through her heart we are brought right back to Him and He mediates our prayers to the Most High and Holy Trinity. Be careful not to defame the mother of the Lord. Think of how you feel when someone defames your mother. The Hail Mary is Biblical, St.Luke1, and I was simply wondering why this is even part of the conversation. Why not consider those in heaven to be our friends by honoring them, you honor the One who created them. Pax Christi!
ReplyDeleteKathleen,
ReplyDeleteI'm not the Anon of 8:45am to whom you responded, but you said "You don't no one said you had to" [need to ask anyone to go to God for you].
God has actually said that you should go to him in prayer ONLY through Jesus Christ: that's 1 Timothy 2:5, plain as day.
I agree that protestants, in their criticisms, should be careful to distinguish between Mary herself and Marian devotions.
I don't understand Protestant objection to the Hail Mary nor do I understand why Protestants say Catholics shouldn't ask Mary's intercession. Don't you ask other people to pray for you? So why can't Catholics do likewise? Furthermore, Jesus Christ chose to come to us through Mary. Don't you think He loves His Mother? Won't He be insulted if people who call Him Lord and Savior denigrate His Mother?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catholicfaithandreason.org/mary-our-mother-in-the-order-of-grace.html
http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Links/Apologtc/Aplg_frm.htm
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html
Thanks Anon 10:01 am. I'll look into it.
ReplyDeletebtw. Recep Erdogan, Turkish primeminister, is another possibility. Much of Turkey (old Asia Minor) was part of the Assyrian empire. Recep Erdogan adds to 666 in English gematria and his name is "evil" when translated into English.
1. The Mother of the Redeemer has a precise place in the plan of salvation, for "when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'" (Gal. 4:4-6)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html
Why do we have this need to determine who the Antichrist is ahead of time?
ReplyDeleteIt will be obvious when the time comes, and then we will probably wish to be ignorant.
When that time does come, then we shall warn those whom God has prepared ahead of time to have listening hearts - all others (which will be most people) will reject us and our warnings and we will be hated by them.
We can try to warn ahead of time who it might be, but really, I'm starting to think that those efforts have played their part in hardening hearts that otherwise might have listened at the proper time (because of how many times we've been wrong). May God forgive us if that is so.
[Tues. Oct. 25]
You see, many forget that those who destroyed the 2nd temple were Syrian (Assyrian ... including part of what is now Turkey) mercenaries hired by Rome, they were not the Romans themselves. So, people make the mistake of thinking a revived Roman empire (EU) would be the place AC comes from because AC will come from the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, yet the AC will come from the region once known as Assyria!
ReplyDeletePoint taken Marko.
ReplyDeleteCathy,
ReplyDeleteYou quote Galatians, "God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons". That means sons of God, not sons of Mary - see John 1:12-13.
If I ask my Christian brother to pray for me, and tell him what I need prayer for, he then prays in his own words. That is a different process from intercessory prayer to God the Father through Christ (or anybody else).
St Paul tells me that there is ONE intermediary between man and God - Jesus Christ, the man who is God. 1 Tim 2:5. That is why it is mistaken to pray via Mary or anybody else.
Jesus Christ, our great exemplar, never prayed to God through any of the deceased great prophets. Nor did St Paul. Or St Peter.
None of this is to disrespect Mary. I look forward to acknowledging her as the Mother of the King in a future era.
Anon 11:04....
ReplyDeleteSorry if I sounded a bit antagonistic in my last post. I love to figure things out ahead of time - to a fault.
It's just a thought that occurred to me, and I figured I'd pass it on. One of those things that God's been trying to teach me lately. Wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, though the recent postings about Sarkozy, et al, precipitated it.
Anon 10:44
ReplyDeleteSarkozy is also jewish and holds the the title of "Prince of Andorra" as the French Pres.
Nicolas Paul Stephane Sarkozy de Nagy-Bocsa.
The meaning of the name Nicolas is:
"Victorious:conquerer of the people".
The meaning of Paul is:
"little"a possible reference to the prophecy of
the "little horn".
The meaning of "Stephane"is:
"crown"or"garland".
The rider on the white horse in Revelation is given a crown.
The meaning of the name"Sarkozy is:
"Prince of Darkness".
The surname"Sarkozy refers to someone from "Sarkoz' a region in Hungary.
According to various linguists the Hungarians inherited their non-Indo-European language from the Turks/and or the Sumerian's which in turn may indicate that the name"Sarkozy"can trace its ultimate origin to ancient Assyria.
In "Assyria",'Sar"means"Prince"and"kozy'or"Kusi"
refering to the inhabitants of Kush means"DARK"
The meaning of "nagy"is"Big"or"Great".
The for Bocsa is "money box".
Who knows? But is very interesting.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteCathy,
If I ask my Christian brother to pray for me, and tell him what I need prayer for, he then prays in his own words. That is a different process from intercessory prayer to God the Father through Christ (or anybody else).
Anonymous, you contradict yourself in your statement above. If it's okay to ask my brother to pray for me, it is even more efficacious to ask the Mother of Jesus to pray for me. May I remind you of the Gospel account of the Wedding Feast At Cana? "On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage with His disciples. When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to Him, 'They have no wine.' And Jesus said to her, 'O woman, what have you to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.' His Mother said to the servants, 'Do whatever He tells you.'" (Jn.2:1-5) Jesus then changed the water into wine. So, the Mother of Jesus observed that the wine had run out and in order to spare the wedding couple the embarrasment of running out of wine at the wedding, she interceded on their behalf by drawing Jesus' attention to the situation. She then instructed the servants to do whatever Jesus commanded. Jesus then performed His first miracle in response to His Mother's request. Obviously, Jesus also knew that the wine had run out, but note that He didn't perform this miracle until His Mother pointed out the need to Him. Therefore, to state that asking the Mother of Jesus to intercede for oneself or others is useless and not Biblically based - is incorrect.
Anon@6:27AM,
ReplyDeleteWhere did I say that EVERY prayer to Mary is improper in that way? You of course chose one that isn't. But many others by pious Catholics are. You can find them all over the internet and in books of Catholic prayers. Have you ever prayed such a prayer?
The only Marian prayer I pray is the "Hail Mary." Most Catholics I know would say the same.
Perhaps you should back up your claims. Just because someone wrote a prayer to Mary and claims to be Catholic, that does not make it a "Catholic" prayer.
You need to do your homework first and base your claims on accurate premises. Craig does this. Because of this (and his other fine personal qualities), he has my respect and I pay attention when he criticizes my Church.
Your posts are just a waste of space that fan the flames. Protestants bashing Catholics with ill-founded claims? Congratulations, the New Age would approve.
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteTo me you are muddying the water, but rather than divert into all that, let me simply quote St Paul:
"There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ..." (1 Timothy 2v5)
One mediator means one mediator. And he is identified: Jesus Christ, the man who is God. Thaty means not anybody else. Including his mother (to whom I mean no disrespect).
These are Rome's scriptures too.
3 CITY STATES
ReplyDeleteThere are three cities (city-states) across this planet that share striking
similarities and play a crucial role in the global governmental system we have
long been living under. The three city-states (along with the role they serve)
is as follows:
City of London(finance)
Washington DC(military)
Vatican City(religion)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/26566406/The-3-City-States
or http://tinyurl.com/3ox6a9r
Constance:
ReplyDeleteThis is the FULL and complete text from the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace (10/24/11):
http://www.news.va/en/news/full-
text-note-on-financial-reform-from-
the-pontif
No, Pope Benedict did NOT call for a 'Central World Bank"....
http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss
/index.php?p=21986
To Paul @ 8:36 PM
ReplyDeleteWell, for that matter, you can't fnd the word 'bible' in the bible either!!!
So when you say "what part of Holy
ReplyDeleteMary, mother of God, pray for us
sinners," etc., don't I understand,
I'd have to say none of it.
You don't understand that Mary is the Mother of God? Do you reject the incarnation Paul?
The Hail Mary has three distinct parts, from three separate sources. The first, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", comes from the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28).The second, "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)", is borrowed from the divinely inspired greeting of St. Elizabeth (Luke 1:42). Finally, the petition "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen." is stated by the official Catechism of the Council of Trent to have been framed by the Church itself.
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/3z84x2c
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteCathy,
To me you are muddying the water, but rather than divert into all that, let me simply quote St Paul:
"There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ..." (1 Timothy 2v5)
One mediator means one mediator. And he is identified: Jesus Christ, the man who is God.
Anonymous, your observation above is aptly illustrated in my example of the Miracle at Cana. For Jesus the Mediator performed His first Miracle at the intercession of His Mother. Neither I nor the Apostle John claim that the Mother of Jesus performed the Miracle - she merely pointed out the need of the couple to Jesus who then changed the water into wine. Every Christian knows that Jesus Christ is the one Mediator between God and Man and Catholics are Christians too...
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
A papal commission released the statement. Query, could that happen without the Pope's approval? It now appears not to be a papal statement, but clearly, it is a Vatican one.
ReplyDeleteConstance
The Creator of all the universe through His spoken Word does not have a "Mother" ("all things were created by Him and through Him"). Mary was only the mother of Christ's humanity and nothing more. To claim that she is the "Mother of God" is utter blasphemy.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous @ 1:47 PM
ReplyDeleteRe: "One mediator means one mediator. And he is identified: Jesus Christ, the man who is God."
___________________________________
Well, I have some breaking news for you. The actual words of Jesus Christ HIMSELF are the scriptural support for why we Catholics believe in the Sacrament of Penance (Reconciliation)....
The Sacrament of Penance, commonly called Confession, is one of the seven sacraments recognized by the Catholic Church. Catholics believe that all of the sacraments were instituted by Jesus Christ himself. In the case of Confession, that institution occurred on Easter Sunday, when Christ first appeared to the apostles after his Resurrection. Breathing on them, He said: “Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.” (John 20:22-23)
Personally, I am shocked that anyone would be surprised regarding the call for a global economic order. The papacy has repeatedly been an advocate regarding a global economic governing body. One thing is very clear: control the money, and the control of people's freedom is complete. Bible prophecy in the Book of Revelation specifically refers to the Antichrist's power being directly derived from the control of the world's economy. We are heading full steam ahead towards this evil system!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 2:13
ReplyDeleteThe complete document you referred to mentions sustainable development repeatedly as well as "humanism open to transcendence" and collectivity. Sounds rather New-Agey to me.
It also says: "It would seem logical for the reform process to proceed with the United Nations as its reference because of the worldwide scope of its responsibilities, its ability to bring together the nations of the world, and the diversity of its tasks and those of its specialized Agencies. "
The United Nations is one of the most corrupt, anti-Christian, abortion and sterilization loving organizations in the world!
There is no way to interpret this paper in any other way than what it plainly says. And the truth shall set you free- unless you are willing to remain a hostage.
Anonymous 3:09 said:
ReplyDeleteJesus said: “Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.” (John 20:22-23)
The words of Jesus are perfect. They did not require any political organization to create something called a "Sacrament" whereby some man listens to you when you tell him your sins and then he grants the power to forgive you. The Holy Spirit does not need an intercessor!
Try to look at this from an outsider (non-Catholic's) point of view and hopefully you'll understand why it's a tough pill to swallow all of these rules of convenience for the RCC.
The Creator of all the universe through His spoken Word does not have a "Mother" ("all things were created by Him and through Him"). Mary was only the mother of Christ's humanity and nothing more. To claim that she is the "Mother of God" is utter blasphemy.
ReplyDeleteYour Christology is muddy. See "Against the Protestant Gnostics" for more information.
To Constance @ 3:08 PM
ReplyDeleteRe: "A papal commission released the statement. Query, could that happen without the Pope's approval? It now appears not to be a papal statement, but clearly, it is a Vatican one."
___________________________________
Well, Constance -- the report itself needs to be clarified. In summary -- as two devout Catholics put it on one of the blogs yesterday:
First blogger's comment....
So, I've actually read the document - imagine that! The paper condemns creating any organization that would be "imposed by force, coercion or violence" (that's a very libertarian thing to say). The document continues to point out that the "principle of subsidiarity should regulate relations between the State and local communities and between public and private institutions, not excluding the monetary and financial institutions" which is a very Ron Paul thing to say. The document continues: "So, on a higher level, it ought to govern the relations between a POSSIBLE future global public Authority and regional and national institutions." The document does not call for this Global Authority like the media claims, rather, it states this Global Authority will FAIL if it comes about through force, coercion or violence and will FAIL if it rejects the principle of subsidiarity.
Now the following is my personal opinion - The Church sees the writing on the wall and understands that the general momentum is for a global authority of this kind to be established. The Church wants to make it clear that if the Global Authority does not follow the stuff mentioned above; and, if it is ruling over entities that reject the principle of subsidiarity in their local structures, it will fail. Not to mention it would have to be brought about by violence and coercion if the principles of subsidiarity were not already being followed in today's financial system (which they are not).
Second blogger's reply....
Thank you. That is very helpful. So, what actually happened was that a document was released warning that a central monetary authority should not steamroll over subsidiarity. Funny that gets lost is the news cycle.
To: Anon@1:39PM
ReplyDeleteFrom: Anon@6:52AM (and @5:05AM), to whom you responded.
(NB Anon@6:27AM is a Catholic!)
When people respond to arguments directed against their views with personal insults, it looks like they haven't a good argument. Kindly observe the courtesies of civilized discourse, as Constance has asked.
I don't write what I can't back up. I went out with a Catholic girl for a while and she prayed freely to Mary. (No, it didn't end over Reformation issues.) She was in good standing with her parish priest, whom I knew personally and who commissioned a statue of the Virgin Mary. He in turn was in good standing with his bishop. If you personally address Mary only using the Hail Mary then you have a lot of work to do to convince the Catholic world to rein themselves in. And why do the clergy not rein in the laity? They surely know that this goes on.
The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which is formally approved by Rome, refers to her as a "refuge of sinners". There is no refuge from the wrath of God against human sin anywhere but in Jesus Christ.
The Salve Regina describes her as "our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve..."
Our hope is in Christ, because he and only he can save us from our sins.
From the Ave Maris Stella:
"Break the captives' fetters,
Light on blindness pour,
All our ills expelling,
Every bliss implore."
Again, only Christ can set us free from sin and heal us.
This prayer
http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english5/p03093.htm
says that we atone to *Mary* for our sin.
This prayer by a priest
http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english5/p03153.htm
asks Mary to grant him strength. Christ can do that, but how can Mary? By what means?
It is not hard to find plenty more like that in the internet.
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteI want my prayer to end up at the throne of God the Father. I am told by holy scripture (yours and mine) that there is one mediator (1 Tim 2:5). So I commit my prayer to that mediator and not anybody else - "through Jesus Christ our Lord".
This is no different from a representative of the president turning up in my town and saying "You can get your message read by the president, but after you have written it you have to hand it to me. I am his one representative."
Given your view of Mary you might be surprised that Paul says only one person can do this, but you should take that up with him, not me.
Only people who have read Windswept House and other Malachi Martin books can understand what is going on. The Vatican has a financial and political side. Some in the Vatican work to protect that. Others put the religious side first. Which side is going to prevail? Windswept House left that open.
ReplyDeleteThe question is which definiton of subsidiarity was the document referring to? In calling for the UN to be the starting point of a regulating body, I suspect it follows the definition in Wiki of subsidiarity:
ReplyDelete"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient."
It goes on to state the following:
"Subsidiarity was established in EU law by the Treaty of Maastricht,[citation needed] which was signed on 7 February 1992 and entered into force on 1 November 1993.
Under the principle of subsidiarity, in areas which do not fall within its exclusive competence, the Union shall act only if and in so far as the objectives of the proposed action cannot be sufficiently achieved by the Member States, either at central level or at regional and local level, but can rather, by reason of the scale or effects of the proposed action, be better achieved at Union level."
I don't write what I can't back up. I went out with a Catholic girl for a while and she prayed freely to Mary. (No, it didn't end over Reformation issues.) She was in good standing with her parish priest, whom I knew personally and who commissioned a statue of the Virgin Mary.
ReplyDeleteAs the saying goes, the plural or anecdote is not data. Moreover just because your former girlfriend and priest call themselves Catholic does not make them Catholic. Matthew Fox was "Catholic" (so-called) for many years. The Catholic Church has always been infiltrated with apostates. At least Luther had the integrity to leave.
Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, but His Mother (who was human and only human) has a special role to play in salvation. Remember, the apostles were given the power to remit sins. In fact, all Christians have a role to play in sanctifying the world.
As Philip Lee argues in his fine book "Against the Protestant Gnostics", when you focus myopically on Christ's divinity at the expense of His humanity you get an individualistic, Hallmark-card style of Christianity, detatched from creation. Such a view is not scriptural.
With regard to the whys of honoring Mary and her role in salvation - they have been around a heckuva lot longer than sola scriptura (16 c):
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2011/feb/19/more-on-the-role-of-mary-church/
Sorry - I posted the wrong link about the whys of honoring Mary. It should be as follows:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-VI
Hey, Anon4.17pm, how about reading my post thru to the end? My point was to provide both anecdotal AND documentary evidence. To respond only to the former and say it is anecdotal isn't exactly good rhetoric, is it?
ReplyDeleteAnon@3.46pm
Constance, most people automically assumed this document published by the Vatican came from the Pope. However, the Vatican Press spokesman declared it wouldn't be correct to say Pope Benedict said what was in the document. I hope the Pope makes a comment clarifying his stance even if he appears to be at odds with some of the Vatican apparatus.
ReplyDeleteHey, Anon4.17pm, how about reading my post thru to the end? My point was to provide both anecdotal AND documentary evidence. To respond only to the former and say it is anecdotal isn't exactly good rhetoric, is it?
ReplyDeleteAnon@3.46pm
If you want to ignore everything but the first paragraph of what I wrote, that is your perogative. Moreover if you want the Rhetoric Prize, go ahead and take it.
"With regard to the whys of honoring Mary and her role in salvation - they have been around a heckuva lot longer than sola scriptura"
ReplyDeleteReally? Christ's attitude to the scriptures of *his* day was Sola Scriptura. All of the Marian doctrines can be traced no further back than the time, several generations after the apostolic era, when gnosticism was infecting the church and had to be fought against - with some success but clearly not total.
Really? Christ's attitude to the scriptures of *his* day was Sola Scriptura.
ReplyDeleteI think not. And just where in the Bible did Christ list the books that would comprise the full canon of scripture?
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteCathy,
I want my prayer to end up at the throne of God the Father. I am told by holy scripture (yours and mine) that there is one mediator (1 Tim 2:5). So I commit my prayer to that mediator and not anybody else - "through Jesus Christ our Lord".
Anonymous, you can pray directly to God. I have no problem with your method. But don't tell me that Catholics who seek the intercession of the Mother of Jesus have no basis in Scripture for this approach. Furthermore, Jesus Christ's Mediation does not mean you can't ask the Mother of Jesus to intercede with her Son Jesus on your behalf. For that is exactly what happened at the Wedding Feast of Cana...the Mother of Jesus interceded with Jesus for the wedding couple who ran out of wine. And if you are consistent, you would likewise never ever ask your relatives or friends to pray for you either, but would go straight to Jesus yourself.
I think not. And just where in the Bible did Christ list the books that would comprise the full canon of scripture?
ReplyDeleteOn second thought don't answer this. This disussion is a waste of time. It's been rehashed dozens of times on this blog in one form or another. You believe what you believe, including what you belive about Catholicism, and that is your right.
Good day.
Yes, the Mary thing has been rehashed many times here before.
ReplyDeleteBut no one seems to acknmowledge that the practice of Mary adoration or veneration did not even become a big thing until the 1800's.
Bottom line- why would you ask someone else for God's help, when you can ask him yourself!!
And why then did Christ NOT make a big deal of his mother when he replied to the question "your mother and brethern are here"
Wouldn't that have been the perfect opportunity for our Lord to show us that we should make a big deal of her? But he did not!
To Anonymous @ 3:29 PM:
ReplyDeleteRe: "The words of Jesus are perfect. They did not require any political organization to create something called a "Sacrament." ___________________________________
Uhhhhh, well that 'organization' was founded by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ HIMSELF when He said the following words to Simon (Peter) as He created the Catholic Church and made Peter the first Pope in a long unbroken line of Popes....
"Blessed art thou, Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And so I say to thee: That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16:17-19)
To Anonymous @ 3:29 PM:
ReplyDeleteRe: "The words of Jesus are perfect. They did not require any political organization to create something called a "Sacrament." ___________________________________
Uhhhhh, well that 'organization' was founded by Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ HIMSELF when He said the following words to Simon (Peter) as He created the Catholic Church and made Peter the first Pope in a long unbroken line of Popes....
"Blessed art thou, Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And so I say to thee: That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16:17-19)
Also to Anonymous @ 3:29 PM
ReplyDeleteThe actual words of Jesus Christ Himself are the scriptural support for the Sacrament of
Penance (or Reconciliation) . . .
The Sacrament of Penance, commonly called Confession, is one of the seven sacraments recognized by the Catholic Church. Catholics believe that all of the sacraments were instituted by Jesus Christ himself. In the case of Confession, that institution occurred on Easter Sunday, when Christ first appeared to the apostles after his Resurrection. Breathing on them, He said: “Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained” (John 20:22-23).
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBut no one seems to acknmowledge that the practice of Mary adoration or veneration did not even become a big thing until the 1800's.
The Virgin Mary has been honored and venerated as Mother of God since the first centuries of Christianity...
http://www.earlychristians.org/docs_interest/Mary.html
In the first three Gospels
ReplyDeletewhere they told Jesus that his mother
and brethren were standing outside
and couldn't get in because of the
throng of people, He said: "Who
is my mother and who are my
brethren?
And He gestured to all the disciples
around Him and said: " Whosoever
does the will of my father which is
in heaven, the same is my brother
and sister and MOTHER."
At the marriage in Cana, Jesus was
still flesh and blood. He had not
been transfigured yet, much less
ascended into heaven. Doesn't
that mean anything to you people
who would rather speak to a woman,
albeit a most blessed woman, who
in all likelihood, sleeps a very restful
peaceful sleep and awaits the
resurrection like everyone else ?
Why pray to Mary when any believer
in Jesus has direct access to the
throne of God through Jesus, the
High Priest of the order of
Melchisadec ? Why ?
Jesus asked: "Why do you follow the
traditions of men and not the
commandments of God ? "
Also Jesus quoted The Torah and the
Prophets, including the Psalms.
What more do you need to know.
It's so clear !
Re: Mary and the Incarnation:
ReplyDeleteAt the Council of Ephesus of 431, one of the few ecumenical councils (recognized by the church catholic [as in ‘universal’ not capital “C”], i.e., the RCC, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and some Protestant), Mary is described/defined as theotokos [from theos = God and tokos = childbirth] which is literally ‘God-bearer’ and some, as in the RCC, use “mother of God.” My personal opinion is that the RCC goes a bit too far in revering her and many in Protestantism go a bit too far the other way. Certainly, there can be only one “God-bearer;” however, in a similar way, there was only one Apostle Paul. And, there’s only one of each of us.
One must keep in mind that Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh [John 1:14] which is why His time on the earth between conception and Resurrection is termed the Incarnation as the word ‘incarnation’ connotes a pre-existence. Jesus was/is the eternal Son of God with the word ‘eternal’ in this case meaning unbounded eternity with no beginning point in ‘time.’ God’s elect will join Jesus, the entire Godhead, in eternity; however, we are bounded by a beginning point in eternity unlike, of course, the Word, the Son of God.
Given that, Mary was the ‘vehicle’ chosen to carry the God-man (I use this term in a general way rather than write a full treatise on the person of Jesus Christ and understand this is not meant in a way which would connote Nestorianism) in her womb although she did not, of course, birth the pre-existent divine Word / Son of God. Mary did, however, give birth to the unique God-man and for that she is indeed unique as well. Nonetheless, Mary is not to be thought of as being exalted over the rest of mankind any more than, for example, the Apostle Paul. Mary did not write 2/3rds of the NT anymore than Paul birthed Jesus. Every one has their part to play!
The Vatican's call for a world government is nothing new. Here is Pope John XXIII’s 1963 encyclical Pacem in Terris: “Today the universal common good presents us with problems which are world-wide… which cannot be solved except by a public authority with power, organization and means co-extensive with these problems, and with a world-wide sphere of activity” (para 137). This 1963 encyclical also viewed a resolution of the United Nations as “a step in the right direction, an approach toward the establishment of a juridical and political ordering of the world community” (para 144).
ReplyDeleteYes, Cathy @ 5:17 PM is absolutely correct!!!
ReplyDeleteMary has been 'honored' (NEVER adored) since the very early days of Christianity.
Attention Catholic bashers: Please take time to 'do your homework' BEFORE you attack Catholics and end up embarrassing yourselves.
Sigh....
Craig, if the Mother of God was just like any other human being e.g., St. Paul, why did the Archangel Gabriel address the Mother of God during the Annunciation as 'full of grace?'
ReplyDeletehttp://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0128.html
WOW....if Protestants were put on 'trial' on this blog the way that Catholics are (and on a continuous basis) . . . there would be absolute OUTRAGE!!!
ReplyDeleteCathy,
ReplyDeleteI'll answer your question with a question: Why was Stephen described as "filled with Grace and power" in Acts 6:8?
http://www.usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Acts&ch=6
Actually Cathy is incorrect. Yes, Mary has been venerated through the ages, but, not to the level that we have seen over the last few hundred years. As a matter of fact, it is not even close - the last couple of centuries is when Mary worship (oops, I mean veneration) has really taken off. Just search history for yourself.
ReplyDeleteAnd some on here are not catholic bashers. Some of us have spent most of our lives in the church and are very educated on church doctrine, thankfully we have been blessed that God has shown us the truth.
To Anonymous @ 6:53PM
ReplyDeleteRe: "....the last couple of centuries is when Mary worship (oops, I mean veneration) has really taken off."
___________________________________
LOL....the only thing that has 'taken off' is ridiculous propaganda coming from anti-Catholics like yourself.
(Cathy's statement remains the accurate one.)
Craig,
ReplyDelete"Hail, full of grace (kecharitomene), the Lord is with you!" [Luke 1:28, RSVCE]
The Greek word, kecharitomene, is the perfect passive participle of the Greek verb, charitoo, meaning to grace or favor. The perfect tense denotes completion or fullness. It can be translated as "completely graced" or "fully favored." ...Even some Protestant Bibles render it as "highly favored one" (NIV & KJV). In this verse Gabriel does not address her as "Hail, Mary" but as "Hail, full of grace." Gabriel uses this participle as a name or title for Mary. In Acts 6:8, St. Stephen is said to be "full of grace" according to the RSV, but this phrase is used as a description and not as a title...
http://users.binary.net/polycarp/immac.html
Hey, Anon 7:05 PM --
ReplyDeleteHave you ever noticed how certain Catholic bashers like to refer to themselves as 'former' Catholics? Yet, it's 'interesting' that they don't have a CLUE about Catholic doctrine . . . and their ignorance about what Catholics believe is embarrassingly lacking and soooo transparent.
I have always found it interesting that in the only writings that we have of Peter (Epistles of Peter 1 & 2) not ONCE does he even mention Mary ... let alone state that prayers should be made to her. Kind of funny too that the Sacrifice of the Mass isn't mentioned as well, along with a whole litany of other Catholic dogma. I think it's a question worthy to be asked as to why that is the case. Instead, over and over again, he "venerates" the Lord Jesus Christ. Why? Because he knew very well He is the only one worthy of our worship and trust.
ReplyDeleteFrom his 144 page Encyclical entitled "Charity in Truth" back in 2009 Benedict writes:
ReplyDelete“In the face of the unrelenting growth of global interdependence,” wrote Benedict, “there is a strongly felt need, even in the midst of a global recession, for a reform of the United Nations organization, and likewise of economic institutions and international finance, so that the concept of the family of nations can acquire real teeth.”
Benedict’s quest for far-reaching reform was even more explicit in the next paragraph:
To manage the global economy; to revive economies hit by the crisis; to avoid any deterioration of the present crisis and the greater imbalances that would result; to bring about integral and timely disarmament, food security and peace; to guarantee the protection of the environment and to regulate migration: For all this, there is urgent need of a true world political authority ….
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteThere's one other issue and that is that the Catholic Bible is based on the Latin Vulgate. Scholarship indicates this verse among the earliest of Greek manuscripts [the Codex Sinaiticus]which indicates the Greek word for 'grace' is not used in this verse. It's actually the Greek word for 'highly favored' [kexaritomena] instead which is, admittedly "quite rare" in usage [Nolland, Word Biblical Commentary Luke 1-9:20, 1989, Word Books Publishers; p 50].
The phrase "full of grace" in the Greek is the words plaras karitos which is found in the aforementioned Acts 6:8 and John 1:14 only.
Of Luke 1:28 Darrel Bock states [Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament: Luke 1:1-9:50, 1994, Baker; p 109]: "After the greeting [of Gabriel], Mary is addressed as the 'favoured one.' In this context, Mary is the recipient of God's grace, not a bestower of it. She is simply the special object of God's favor, much as John the Bapist was a special prophet of God."
Nolland concurs with Bock above and also states given the word usage that it suggests a possible Hebraic root: "An illusion to the name Hannah is also possible..." and goes on to state, "kexaritomena is interpreted in the text by the declaration 'You have found grace with God' in v 30."
When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man. They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints. They are asking Mary and other saints to intercede for them before the throne of Christ in Heaven. ``For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.'' (James 5:16). How much more availing is the unceasing prayer of the sinless Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ! St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to intercede for him: ``Brethren, pray for us.'' (2 Thess. 3:1). And again: ``I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God...'' (Rom. 15:30). Christ must particularly approve of our going to Him through Mary, His Blessed Mother, because He chose to come to us through her. And at Cana, He performed His first miracle after a word from His Mother. (John 2:2-11))
ReplyDeleteCathy,
ReplyDeleteSorry, I didn't see your post at 7:06; so, I ended up posting some things which you've posted there.
The first Mass & Holy Communion:
ReplyDeleteAt the Last Supper, Jesus instituted His Eucharist at the Passover meal that was to mark His passing through death into Resurrection and everlasting life.
It was in these words that Jesus inaugurated His Eucharist:
"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Matthew 26:26-28
paul said...
ReplyDeleteIn the first three Gospels where they told Jesus that his mother and brethren were standing outside and couldn't get in because of the throng of people, He said: "Who is my mother and who are my rethren? And He gestured to all the disciples around Him and said: " Whosoever does the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and MOTHER." At the marriage in Cana, Jesus was still flesh and blood. He had not been transfigured yet, much less ascended into heaven. Doesn't that mean anything to you people who would rather speak to a woman, albeit a most blessed woman, who in all likelihood, sleeps a very restful peaceful sleep and awaits the resurrection like everyone else ?
Anti-Catholics often misunderstand or narrowly interpret passages so as to ridicule Catholic teachings. They are quite fond of doing this in regard to the Virgin Mary. A favorite such passage is Matthew 12:46-50.
http://frjoe.tripod.com/bigot1.htm
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
It's good to refer to all four of
ReplyDeletethe Gospels when one is establishing
the tenants of the faith.
In the Gospel of Luke it reads very
much the same, of course, but Luke,
the beloved physician, notes that Jesus
said after giving them the bread;
" This is my body which is given for
you: do this in remembrance of me."
I notice two things. First all the gospels
say that Jesus took the bread and
gave it to them, and that Jesus took
the cup of wine and gave it to them.
Obviously he didn't put any of his
physical flesh in their hands or any
of his physical blood in the cup.
The RCC teaches that a priest says
a prayer and waves his hand over
these things and that the things
mystically change into literal
flesh and blood !
Jesus didn't do that.
And Jesus told them clearly that
they should "_do this in remembrance
of me".
In REMEMBRANCE. Not as a mystical
magical act of literal transformation
of bread and wine into flesh and blood.
Mystery religion.
paul said...
ReplyDeleteIn the Gospel of Luke it reads very much the same, of course, but Luke, the beloved physician, notes that Jesus said after giving them the bread; " This is my body which is given for you: do this in remembrance of me." I notice two things. First all the gospels say that Jesus took the bread and gave it to them, and that Jesus took he cup of wine and gave it to them. Obviously he didn't put any of his physical flesh in their hands or any of his physical blood in the cup.
Jesus said clearly, "This is my body ... this is my blood", and in controversy with the Jews He insisted that He was not just using metaphors. "My flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him". (Jn 6:55-56) Many of the disciples found this a hard saying and parted from His company, but Jesus did not moderate His statements to win them back.
http://www.adoremus.org/0405RealPresence.html
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteGoing back to your post of 7:06, I do see a problem with rendering this section of the verse as "full of grace" in and of itself as by definition a particible in this sort of usage is a 'verbal noun.' This is usually rendered with the suffix -ed or -ing. The perfect tense means completion, yes, but in the sense of "I went to the store" in which case 'went' is in the past, it is 'completed.' As for the passive voice, this means the subject is passive rather than active; so, in this case Mary, who is the subject, is the recipient of the action [grace/favor]. So, the best rendering would be something like "highly favored one" as that would sound better than "highly graced one."
Kathleen, most Protestants do not "talk to the dead". In other words, asking Mary to pray for us is impossible because she cannot hear us, in Protestant opinion. We are told to pray with the living. Trying to contact the dead is wrong.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was Catholic, I never prayed to Mary, but asked her to pray for me to God, and that would be fine, except that in Protestant theology, the dead cannot hear us.
I would love to try to talk to my deceased husband, but I know it's against God's rules.
I realize that a few Protestants do ask for the prayers of the dead. I attend an Episcopal church, and they do have the "communion of saints" in which all sorts of saints are asked to pray for us; this is a portion of Catholic ritual taken over intact from Rome. And, I believe the same thing goes in Orthodox churches.
A Protestant pastor, Jack Hayford, wrote a book on Mary, and said that prayers addressed to her would be rerouted to God by God Himself. I think that's true, and I would never consider praying through saints to be actually sinful, but there are those rules about contacting the dead.
Protestantism has its harsh rules, which are not
user-friendly. I would like to be able to pray to my "friends" in Heaven, the saints, and to ask my husband to pray for me.
As it is, I ask God to request that my husband pray for me. That at least makes contact, I hope. It's not a happy situation. So little is happy now, except our hope of Heaven.
Mariel
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteAs regards John 6:55-56, Jesus does qualify this statement with His disciples as he did most of the time with His parables. Jesus knew those who were not enabled by the Father [v 65] would not understand since it's the Spirit who gives life:
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
The flesh counts for nothing! His words were spiritual, metaphorical.
Craig said...
ReplyDeleteCathy,
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.” The flesh counts for nothing! His words were spiritual, metaphorical.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0003.html
Craig, you might consider this book to help you understand the key teachings of the Catholic Church.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sophiainstitute.com/client/COL_ads/COL_bkst_verses.html
Craig, you might also find this a useful resource.
ReplyDeletehttp://chnetwork.org/
For all those who dispute the Catholic interpretation of Jn . 6:55-56, google Miracle at Lanciano and/ or the phrase Eucharistic Miracles.
ReplyDeleteLaus Deo,
Catherine
The dead in Christ are much more alive than they ever were here on earth, because they are not constrained by their bodies, they are one with Christ, and they share in his glory. And by asking for the prayers of the saints, they do not somehow stand "between" us and Jesus, but rather, alongside of us in our prayers. James 5:16 says that the prayers of a holy person are very powerful, and who is more holy than someone who is already in heaven sharing in Christ's glory? Paul says that intercessory prayer is a good thing, in 1 Timothy 2:1. And since saints in heaven never sleep, they can pray for us around the clock, even while we are asleep, at work, or at play.
ReplyDeleteOne charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
ReplyDeleteSome might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).
ReplyDeleteWhat God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
"The dead in Christ are much more alive than they ever were here on earth"
ReplyDeleteYes, but we don't know which they are, do we? Only God is competent to judge the souls of men. The word 'saint' is used in the NT simply to denote the living faithful, not any subset of them.
Well, obviously, if they are 'Saints' - then we certainly do know where they are are. They are in Heaven.
ReplyDeleteThe Saints share in Christ's glory (John 17:22), and are partakers in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). St. Paul says to imitate them (Hebrews 13:7). The Bible says that the saints in heaven are equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).
Not every soul who goes to Heaven becomes a 'Saint.'
ReplyDeleteA Christian becomes a saint by living an exemplary life of holiness, by performing at least one miracle while living, and by having at least one miracle associated with the Christian's grave or relics occur. Though Roman Catholics would insist that God's grace caused the saint to be and do what he/she was, there is no question that, according to them, only a small, select group of Christians become saints by their own personal holiness.
Brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus,
ReplyDeleteLet us not get too distracted with ANYTHING that comes out of the "Justice & Peace" arm in the Catholic Church. As a Catholic, I've distrusted these libs who ironically feel pro-life activities don't really qualify as Justice & Peace issues, but environmental issues do.
People must understand that not everyone working under the title of a Catholic priest, bishop, or cardinal are actually working for the Catholic Church. It was
stated long ago that the "Smoke of Satan had entered the Church. However, it must be noted that ,"The gates of Hell will not prevail."
If you have never read the book, "AA-1025" published by TAN, I'd suggest it. It also makes one wonder why the Communists would even bother with the R.C.C. if it was truly the anti-Church as some, or many non-Catholics believe.
Here's another possibility, could this talk from some wanna-be pope, not Pope Benedict XVI, keep the faithful, and non-faithful alike distracted from the swift moving heresy called, Chrislam?
One final thought, I heard this at daily Mass recently, "The blood of the Martyrs became the seeds for the Converts."
Viva Christos Rey,
Catherine, a fellow believer in Christ Jesus
Over the centuries....
ReplyDeleteThe road to sainthood begins at the grass-roots. Ordinary Christians, perhaps in a parish or a religious community, recognize that someone of extraordinary holiness has lived among them. The memory of that person inspires them. The story of his or her life is told, perhaps in a book. People pray to the person, asking intercession for some favor, and their prayers may be answered. Extraordinary signs, perhaps a cure from sickness, occur. A local group may be formed which seeks to make this person's life and gifts more widely known.
After a long period of time, sometimes many years, the bishop of the diocese where that person lived may be asked to begin the local process for declaring a saint. If he sees merit in the request, he sets up a board of experts to investigate the person's life, soundness of faith and reputation for holiness. Those who knew the person are interviewed. If miracles are attributed to that person's intercession, they must verified by medical experts. Finally the bishop must ascertain from the other bishops of the region if this person is known and venerated more widely than in one local area.
Next is the long process (which often takes many years) of investigation, beatification and canonization in the final steps to becoming a saint.
To Catherine @ 1:45 AM:
ReplyDeleteYes, you have a valid point.
However, I believe that 'the smoke of Satan' has entered ALL of the Christian churches...both Catholic and Protestant.
NO CHURCH IS EXEMPT!!!
Therefore, when certain individuals keep attacking others on this blog, they are helping to fulfill a goal and agenda of 'divide and conquer.'
It is up to each and everyone of us to keep the flame of our faith strong in our hearts...so that it wouldn't matter if our church doors were shuttered closed tomorrow!!!
By what authority did the Roman Catholic church change the meaning of the word 'saint' from that in its own scriptures, ie ALL the faithful?
ReplyDeleteAttacking false teaching and doctrine is not the same as 'attacking others': stop stifling dissent!
ReplyDeleteWe are to reprove and correct. This is part of Christian love.
There are many points here which open for examination points of doctrine and dogma to see if such are sound and harmonious with Christian teaching.
Catholics have every right to a voice here and so do Protestants.
Stand up for the Truth it will set you and those who have ears to hear free! This is love. Love is not waving and smiling good morning to the man at the window who is oblivious that his house is ablaze, love is to shout, "Fire, get out! Before it's too late!"
Even if the man in the house doesn't like to be shouted at.
Attacking false teaching and doctrine is not the same as 'attacking others': stop stifling dissent!
ReplyDeleteWe are to reprove and correct. This is part of Christian love.
There are many points here which open for examination points of doctrine and dogma to see if such are sound and harmonious with Christian teaching.
Catholics have every right to a voice here and so do Protestants.
Stand up for the Truth it will set you and those who have ears to hear free! This is love. Love is not waving and smiling good morning to the man at the window who is oblivious that his house is ablaze, love is to shout, "Fire, get out! Before it's too late!"
Even if the man in the house doesn't like to be shouted at.
Attacking false teaching and doctrine is not the same as 'attacking others': stop stifling dissent!
ReplyDeleteWe are to reprove and correct. This is part of Christian love.
There are many points here which open for examination points of doctrine and dogma to see if such are sound and harmonious with Christian teaching.
Catholics have every right to a voice here and so do Protestants.
Stand up for the Truth it will set you and those who have ears to hear free! This is love. Love is not waving and smiling good morning to the man at the window who is oblivious that his house is ablaze, love is to shout, "Fire, get out! Before it's too late!"
Even if the man in the house doesn't like to be shouted at.
Cathy,
ReplyDeleteGoing back to the link you provided at 7:06. The writer makes the bold statement in the paragraph you reference:
...Mary is named "Full-of-Grace", which includes sanctifying grace...
This is just flat out not true. As I explained, using the Greek construction (which matches English), the word kexaritomena [note: the "x" in here is transliterated as "ch" since this is the letter 'chi' in the Greek which sounds like 'k' or hard 'ch'] should be rendered "highly favored one" or "highly graced one" of which the former sounds/reads better. By the construction - perfect passive participle - the word is a 'verbal noun' (participle) in the perfect [ie, completed, past] tense in the passive voice [the subject is the recipient of the verb]. Mary is not the bestower of grace/favor; she is the recipient of grace/favor.
In the Greek construction in Acts 6:8, Stephen is full of grace/favor enabling him to do the "great wonders and miraculous signs" [NIV 1984] of the rest of the verse. In this case, "full of grace/favor" is used as a euphemism for "filled with the Holy Spirit." It is specifically because he was full of xaritov [transliterated 'chariton' from the verb 'charis' which is from the same root as 'charitoo' in which we get charisma or 'grace gifts' - gifts of the Spirit].
Sorry, in the above:
ReplyDelete"which is from the same root as 'charitoo'"
should have been separated with commas or parentheses.
Charis is the root word for 'charisma' or 'grace gift' and charitoo comes from the same root which is 'grace' or 'favor.'
sorry for triple identical text posting.
ReplyDeleteAt the marriage in Cana, Jesus was
ReplyDeletestill flesh and blood. He had not
been transfigured yet, much less
ascended into heaven.
Are you denying that Jesus Christ was not both True God (fully divine) and True Man (fully human)until the time of the Transfiguration and/or Ascension, Paul?
I can see the troll(s) have done their job again.
ReplyDeleteWhen things start moving forward in the world at large - things that we all need to pay attention to - an anonymous troll stops by and starts up the Catholic vs. Protestant debates here again.
And many of you fall for it!
Aren't there plenty of other blogs that this can be discussed at?
I'm not saying it isn't an important topic, but it is disruptive.
And no, I'm not the self-appointed hall monitor. Or maybe I am. Anything wrong with that?!? But I do point out subversion and distraction and deception if I think there is merit in doing so.
The enemy uses those tools in our spiritual lives to get us off track as well.
[Wed. Oct. 26]
Are you denying that Jesus Christ was not both True God (fully divine) and True Man (fully human)until the time of the Transfiguration and/or Ascension, Paul?
ReplyDeleteWhat I wrote there is a bit confusing with the double negatives. What I meant to ask was:
Are you claiming that Jesus Christ became True God (fully divine) and True Man (fully human)only at the time of the Transfiguration and/or Ascension, Paul?
I dont disagree Marko, but some of the most active ones here in egging on the Catholic-baiting (and it ALWAYS starts with Catholic-baiting) will proudly sign their names to their posts (such as Paul)!
ReplyDeleteConstance
ReplyDeleteNo mention of the conference of Assissi on 10/27/11?
Among the spiritual leaders attending will be Baha'i, Buddhists, Confucianists, Hindus, Jains, Jews, Sikhs, Taoists and Zoroastrians, joining 100 Christian leaders.
And, did I miss the following being covered on your blog in the last few months?
The 30 participants in the March 4-6 2011 De Mazenod Conference Missionary Oblate Partnership explored "attractive other Christian practices such as Taize or Quaker meditation as well as Buddhist, Muslim and Hindu practices"
This is new age at it's best. Is it not?
And yes, The Missionary Oblates of Immaculate Mary are sanctioned and approved by the church and the pope.
Marko said...
ReplyDelete"I can see the troll(s) have done their job again.
When things start moving forward in the world at large - things that we all need to pay attention to - an anonymous troll stops by and starts up the Catholic vs. Protestant debates here again.
And many of you fall for it!
Aren't there plenty of other blogs that this can be discussed at?
I'm not saying it isn't an important topic, but it is disruptive.
And no, I'm not the self-appointed hall monitor. Or maybe I am. Anything wrong with that?!? But I do point out subversion and distraction and deception if I think there is merit in doing so.
The enemy uses those tools in our spiritual lives to get us off track as well."
[Wed. Oct. 26]
8:18 AM
Respectfully Marko,
There are futile points on the RC V Pt debates here but not all are.
Some are clearly derisive and antagonistic but others do have a point though.
There is still NOTHING stopping people posting relevant posts here, even if it does does take a bit of trawling through tough debate and troll debris from time to time to find them.
I believe your intentions are admirable, however, and hope you are not offended by my difference of opinion on this.
I'm not offended by anyone disagreeing with me.
ReplyDeleteI only point out my observations (which are nothing new and have been observed here before, by Constance and others) because of my interest in studying wartime strategy. After all, it is a battle we are in, yes?
My experience as a moderator at another discussion board also leaves me frustrated here, because it is a personal blog that is used as an UNmoderated discussion board. So I guess I'm just venting, and wishing out loud that we had another place to discuss these things, and just let Constance blog away about what she wants, like Farmer's blog, et al.
On a real discussion board, for example, there are sections where different things are discussed. There could even be an entire section on the RC / Prot debate.
Sorry for the ranting. Back to the debates....
[Wed, Oct. 26]
I'm anon 8:30 am and I agree with you Marko. It would be good if there were an alternative discussion board so that such debates as the RC V Pt ones could be directed there.
ReplyDeletePeace be with you.
When you attack so-called 'false teaching and doctrine' (the Catholic faith), you are attacking Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself - since HE created the Catholic Church in the first place 2,000 years ago!!!
ReplyDeleteSome of you so-called 'Christians' are actually doing the work of Satan. What is so tragic is that you don't even realize it!!!
Father, forgive them for they know not what they do....
"Among the spiritual leaders attending will be Baha'i, Buddhists, Confucianists, Hindus, Jains, Jews, Sikhs, Taoists and Zoroastrians, joining 100 Christian leaders."
ReplyDeleteWell noted 8:23 am!
Here's a youtube link explaining it.
Babylon in Assisi.avi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_220NJxrZg
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=B_220NJxrZg
To Marko @ 8:45 AM (Oct. 26th):
ReplyDeleteWe Catholics would LOVE to get back to discussions on the New Age Movement....which is the purpose that this forum was set up in the first place.
It is only when certain individuals on this blog (and you know who you are) decide to attack our Catholic faith as a 'false doctrine' that we Catholics feel we have absolutely no choice but to fight back and defend the Catholic faith that Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ Himself created before He was crucified and died for ALL of our sins.
Therefore, when you use the term 'false doctrine'....you are attacking Jesus Christ Himself.
Father, please forgive them for they know not what they do.
FYI:
ReplyDeleteThere are many Catholics who have been posting here on Constance's blog for 5 to 7 years now.
Also, there are 5 Catholics (who are regular posters) who are on an e-mail distribution list with Protestants and Jews who also post here on a regular basis. We would NEVER attack each other's beliefs. It's called ' R E S P E C T'
We are all much too busy being UNITED together in a war against the New Age....not a war with each other.
Anon 10:18 + 10:20
ReplyDeleteWas my post at 8:23am catholic bashing? Or is it exposing the new age as you say this forum is for?
To Anonymous @ 6:38 AM
ReplyDeleteRe: "We are to reprove and correct. This is part of Christian love."
___________________________________
And by whose 'authority' are you to 'corect' the Catholic doctrine that Jesus Christ Himself created???
Sorry, but I'm just not feeling the 'love' coming from your post...only false pride and arrogance!!!
Look, all one has to do, to understand the times, is to turn on the TV, where gays and transgenders are celebrated at the same time that Christians are treated like pariahs.
ReplyDeleteIMHO all Christian churches are being undermined right now. Truly, the times we are living in are "As in the days of Noah..." and the apostasy is in full swing.
If something prickles your conscience regarding the Catholic Church and its teachings and you are a Catholic, then pray about it. I left the Catholic church 15 years ago because I was basically struck by a thunderbolt. I had no choice- the church itself left me no choice. I would never have left under anything but the most extreme circumstances, and that is exactly what happened. I was too convinced it was the only true church and that I'd face eternal damnation if I ever left. So if the Lord wants you to leave a particular church, it WILL happen, because He will call you out.
I have seen Craig go on and on ad nauseum on this blog regarding how evil the IHOP churches are. I know otherwise, because I belong to a non-denominational offshoot of that apostolic movement. I don't agree with everything there, but I do know it is the church that best helps ME serve the Lord. In truth, I think that if you love the lord with all your heart and soul, the Lord will put you in the church where you can best serve Him and worship Him-Catholic, protestant, evangelical, whatever.
All of the denigrating of other churches that occurs on this blog is the work of the enemy. The body of Christ is not a particular church. It is a group of Christians who fervently love the Lord, accept by faith the atoning blood of Jesus on the cross as the reason for their salvation, believe the bible is the word of God, and follow the Lord's commandments to the best of their abilities, which incidentally means NOT tearing down other Christians. Yes, the enemy and the New Age is in the Christian churches. We must pray for discernment while keeping the commandments and reading the Word. Hard to go the wrong way if you do those things because the Holy Spirit will tell you in a loud and clear voice when something is amiss.
Christian Soldier
Anonymous @ 10:23 AM
ReplyDeleteYes, we Catholics acknowledge that there is New Age infiltration within the Catholic Church. Our own Susanna (a devout Catholic) has posted extensively on this subject.
However, many of you have blinders on and choose to ignore the New Age infiltration that is happening within the entire Protestant sect: the Baptist Church, the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Episcopal Church, the Christian Evangelical Movement, the Dominionist Movement, etc.
NONE OF US ARE EXEMPT!!!
So, get busy and clean up your own 'glass houses' first before casting stones (more like rocks) at the Catholic Church!!!
Thank you, 'Christian Soldier' at 10:47 AM!!!
ReplyDeleteVery well said.
Did The Antichrist Reveal Himself on 9-11-2011?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k0bilkY55g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=5k0bilkY55g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/
watch?
v=5k0bilkY55g&feature=related
Many of you love to post that you are 'former' Catholics and why you have left the Catholic Church.
ReplyDelete(Although, it's very interesting that many of the 'former' Catholics do not know the very basics -- enough about Catholic doctrine -- to be able to successfully engage in a debate.)
Meanwhile, there are increasing numbers of people who have left various Protestant denominations to become Catholic converts.
I'm just sayin'....
Anony 1104am here, not sure about my thread there ... on review, the words spoken don't go with Obama's lip movements ... think it may be fake .... sorry about that!!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 11:08
ReplyDeleteI suppose you were referring to me. Actually I know quite a bit about Catholic doctrine. I went though the Catholic school system, was married in the RCC and taught catechism for a while. My kids received the sacraments, too.
As I said before, I did not leave the church willingly. I had no choice. I was under demonic attack and when I appealed to my Parrish priest for help he refused because my donations to Catholic Charities were not up to date. That was a slap in the face to me, especially since both my husband and I had been struggling financially and yet had been volunteers at the church, teaching CCD in the evenings to high school students.
A friend brought me to a spirit-filled church where the pastor, who didn't even know me, came out to my house and prayed and the house was rid of the demons that had been attacking me and my family.
Interestingly, I was under attack by a New Age witch for defending the Catholic church in a public setting!
God has a sense of humor.
Christian Soldier
Anonymous 11:08 am, see
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVEdmEjeo4Y
Hope it helps.
Christian Soldier,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, ”I have seen Craig go on and on ad nauseum on this blog regarding how evil the IHOP churches are. I know otherwise, because I belong to a non-denominational offshoot of that apostolic movement.”
First, let me say that apparently not all involved are fully infected by the ‘mother’ IHOP AND not all individuals are of the same false teachings nor are most even aware of the underlying theology/eschatology of IHOP.
So, I assume you are not aware that it was Bob Jones’ purported “drought prophecy” which legitimized the KCF ‘prophetic movement’ in the first place which Ernie Gruen showed to be false (and I go even further in the current article on my site)? I also assume you are not aware that Bickle still claims false teachers Bob Jones and Paul Cain as his ‘spiritual fathers’ (right on his own website under free mp3s) – notwithstanding each of their respective admitted sexual immoralities (’91 and 2004 respectively).
Perhaps you are also not aware that the IHOP eschatology is such that the ‘church’ releases the tribulation and that the ‘church’ partners with Jesus in the judgments of the tribulation [referencing Isaiah 63]? [I’ve listening to audio of this the past few days in my car.] Perhaps you are also not aware that this seems to parallel Barbara Marx Hubbard’s ‘revelation’ on the “cleansing” that is to come.
Once I have a firm grasp of this aspect of the IHOP theology, I will post an article illustrating how Bickle is not being truthful in regards to his theology. It has to do with his definitive statements on the IHOP “Affirmations and Denials” page.
I wrote:
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 11:08 am, see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVEdmEjeo4Y
Hope it helps.
11:28 AM
I believe that Christian Soldier may also find my post interesting and others too, confused over all this Catholic/Protestant pingpong may find it helpful too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVEdmEjeo4Y
Hoper
Craig,
ReplyDeleteAll of those things that you mentioned are false doctrines. I agree with you on that.
The pastor of my church does not subscribe to any of those things, however, he did start out in the Vineyard movement years ago. He has even said things to the congregation that admit that Paul Cain has made mistakes.
My point is that there are false doctrines within every church these days and as long as we recognize the correct doctrine from the incorrect doctrine and feel that the Holy Spirit has placed us in the church or fellowship group where we belong, we may be better off staying there than having no church and no Christian fellowship at all. In addition, I have been the first one to point things out to my pastor when he seems to not be aware of them. Rick Warren's new age leanings being one of those things. So sometimes if we stay where God has planted us, we can open other believer's eyes to things that they didn't see, but needed to be aware of.
There is no perfect church these days. Is yours? I believe the speech to the 7 churches in Asia Minor in Revelations was intended for their unique time frame but also represent a precursor of the state of the churches in the end times. With that in mind, it is important that we keep a watchful eye, and use tact and discernment in how we approach other believers in other churches.
CS
To Anon. 8:23,
ReplyDeleteNot every act by those who "claim" to be Catholic are approved by the Pope, let alone even known about.
In Port Huron, MI there's a place called The Circle House of Prayer. It is as New Age as it gets. It is also run by so-called Catholic nuns. It's frustrating to many of us who try and expose these PAGANS posing as faithful servants in the Catholic (Universal) Church.
I guess that's where we need to review The Parables, specifically the one about the weeds growing among the wheat.
Regarding those who maybe feel too much Catholic Catechism has crept into this blog, I'd say didn't our Lord talk about those who would be falling away from the faith before His return?
It has been said many times before, the largest denomination is Catholicism, followed by #2, former Catholics, then Protestants etc.
CS,
ReplyDeleteAre you aware that it was a Paul Cain "earthquake prophecy" which 'validated' Cain's message to John Wimber/Vineyard and their involved in the 'apostolic/prophetic' movement? If so, are you aware that Wimber himself later was unsure whether this "prophecy" was actually predicted at all as reported in Bill Jackson's book The Quest for the Radical Middle: A History of the Vineyard - a decidedly pro-Vineyard book with a Todd Hunter foreword?
You may wish to read the current article on my site as it discredits Cain, Jack Deere, Wimber and Bickle with documentation to back up the claims -- some right out of their own mouths.
To Christian Solder @ 11:24 AM:
ReplyDeleteWell, I have been a Catholic all of my life and have NEVER been under demonic attack. (I will certainly pray for you.)
My point is that can happen to anyone...in any religious denomination.
(I attend and am a member of a very conservative, traditional Catholic parish church.)
Satan does not discriminate. He is an equal opportunity offender!!!
To Christian Solder,
ReplyDeleteI too have gone head-to-head several times with different "Catholic" priests in the Metro Detroit area.
However, I'd never leave Jesus because of Judas or Peter!
Laus Deo,
Catherine
To Anonymous @ 11:57 AM:
ReplyDeleteRe: "those who maybe feel too much Catholic Catechism has crept into this blog...."
___________________________________
Well, if the Catholic-bashers would cease and desist posting their anti-Catholic rants -- along with posting SLANDER and LIES abut what Catholics actually believe --there would be no NEED for a Catechism 'lesson.' LOL
Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
ReplyDeleteSee Jeremiah 44 especially vs 15-30 as well on how praying and offering up to the 'Queen of Heaven' provokes God to anger.
Hi Catherine,
ReplyDeleteI didn't leave Jesus when I left the RC church. In the past 15 years I have become closer to Him than ever before, since I don't have to sift through a lot of unnecessary doxology to get near Him.
But thanks for your concern.
Craig, I don't wish to discuss this with you. I don't visit this blog anymore except infrequently, for the simple reason that I don't need to waste time by engaging in fruitless discussions defending the church I am in. That's where I and the Catholics here differ.
I am no better of worse than my Catholic or Protestant friends. As long as I am right in the eyes of God, that's all I am concerned about.
CS,
ReplyDeleteAlso, I'm quite convinced that the underlying theology at IHOP is both antichrist and New Age. That's a very strong statement which I will back up in future articles.
One of the meanings of the word 'antichrist' is 'in place of Christ' plus 'in exchange for Christ.' Bickle actually says the 'spirit' revealed to him a "different Jesus" in this audio! This is not available on the IHOP site any longer...
Which slander and which lies exactly, anon 12:26 PM? Who's the accuser of the brethren again?
ReplyDeleteCraig said: "Also, I'm quite convinced that the underlying theology at IHOP is both antichrist and New Age."
ReplyDeleteOh? And I suppose you imply the Catholic church isn't, with its vicarus dei etc?
Here's one for JD
ReplyDeletehttp://www.infowars.com/new-street-lights-to-have-homeland-security-applications/
To Anonymous @ 12:35 PM:
ReplyDeleteRe: "Which slander and which lies exactly, anon 12:26 PM? Who's the accuser of the brethren again?"
___________________________________
Just begin at the top of this thread and READ -- with your own eyes -- all of the accusations coming from the Catholic-bashers. Then, read the replies from various Catholic posters...who only want to set the record straight.
(It's often exhausting keeping up with all of the 'venom' coming from some of you.)
Suggestion: If you're going to 'debate' Catholics, at least do your homework first!!!
Look, this particular post of Constance's INVITES comments on affinities between the RCC and New Age. Provided this doesn't become personal, it is fine to engage in robust debate. 'Iron sharpening iron' is what that is called in Proverbs. And such debate, like any, should begin from what the two sides (Rome and protestantism) have in common, ie the Hebrew scriptures and the New Testament.
ReplyDeleteOn that basis, questioning the Pope's one-world advocacy in Caritas in Veritate is fine. Questioning prayers addressed to Mary, to passed-on saints and to the Archangel Michael is fine. Going on about the sacraments is off-topic. Discussing NA influence on protestant denominations is off-topic (but understandable!) But in all cases let's remember what we have in common, ie faith in Jesus Christ crucified died and risen, man and God, son of the Creator.
Craig at 12:39,
ReplyDeleteThe antichrist spirit is everywhere these days. If you had read what I wrote you might understand that I have no intention of jumping on the devil's bandwagon by accusing my brethren. In the past, the Holy Spirit has given me many opportunities to speak to those who are lost or misguided. If the Holy Spirit does not call someone, they will remain covered with that spirit of delusion spoken about in 2Thessaloneans 2:11. If you are willing to be used of the Spirit, the Spirit will provide the opportunity to speak to those who are open to the truth. Forcing your own religious beliefs upon another person is just as bad as the actions of those dominionists that you mentioned. It is counter-productive to sowing that good seed for the kingdom since there is a spirit of dissension and division there.
More Catholic commentary on the document just released by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/the-pontifical-council-for-peace-justice-and-sauron
Anon @ 12:39,
ReplyDeleteI've already stated my view of the Caritas in Veritate; so, I'm not sure on what basis you make your statement.
Anon @ 12:56,
You wrote, jumping on the devil's bandwagon by accusing my brethren.
Which 'brethren' am I accusing exactly? And, don't you see the inherent hypocrisy in your statement? It's also what is known as "loaded language" which is quite prevalent in the 'apostolic/prophetic' movement.
You also wrote, In the past, the Holy Spirit has given me many opportunities to speak to those who are lost or misguided. If the Holy Spirit does not call someone, they will remain covered with that spirit of delusion spoken about in 2Thessaloneans 2:11. If you are willing to be used of the Spirit, the Spirit will provide the opportunity to speak to those who are open to the truth. Forcing your own religious beliefs upon another person is just as bad as the actions of those dominionists that you mentioned. It is counter-productive to sowing that good seed for the kingdom since there is a spirit of dissension and division there.
I don't believe I'm 'forcing' my views upon anyone here - could you show me how I've done that exactly? Any view presented by any who post on here can be taken or left.
I do my best to show respect when I post comments anywhere -- not that I may not miss that goal on occasion -- and I would appreciate the same level of respect in return.
Since I'm not sure if any of the recent comments are by "CS" or "Christian Soldier" I'll make one more statement concerning a comment:
ReplyDeleteThere was a mention that Paul Cain "made mistakes" - that would be an understatement as Cain is a blatant false prophet/teacher. He is also clearly teaching New Age doctrine - that is unless you don't think the term "Christ Consciousness" is New Age.
If you don't wish to discuss then fine. And, while your own church may not have a full infiltration from the IHOP mother, there's apparently been some with the mere mention of Cain. You may choose to dismiss what I have to say regarding IHOP and that's certainly your prerogative. However, if you think I'm mistaken then it's encumbent upon you to show me exactly where. I spend a lot of time in research, and I'm certainly not infallible, but I'm reasonably sure what I do post is correct and I provide documentation to back up the claims.
Craig,
ReplyDeleteYes, I am anonymous at 12:56 and 12:30.
If it makes you feel any better, my church has no connections to IHOP. It is a spirit-filled church that loves God and loves people and seeks only to help spread the good word around the world (Evangelical) and worship the Lord. There are no hidden agendas there.
I realize that many here may have a problem with a spirit-filled church and that's fine with me. To each his own form of worship. I just don't wish to argue with anyone else about the merits or demerits of either their church or my church. As a former Catholic I respect how the Catholics feel about their church and I would hope they would respect the way I feel about my church.Same goes for the Protestants.
I don't think you can put God in a box. I don't think there is a right church and/or a wrong church. Church can be in a store , a restaurant, an art center, or wherever else God's people choose to spread the good news. And that's what seems to be happening nowadays. There is entirely too much division in the world today, and I don't think that's an accident. The devil loves it when there is infighting amongst believers.
I am sorry that I even posted my thoughts here this morning. This is what always happens here.
Concentrate on God's word and then what the Vatican does or what Paul Cain does becomes irrelevant.
CS (Christian Soldier)
Christian Soldier,
ReplyDeleteYour initial comment stated re: IHOP:
I have seen Craig go on and on ad nauseum on this blog regarding how evil the IHOP churches are.I know otherwise, because I belong to a non-denominational offshoot of that apostolic movement.
This comment was specifically about me as you've made your claim above. So, either you are or you are not an offshoot of IHOP. If you are not then how do you know what I post regarding IHOP either is or is not true without investigating it yourself? You don't have to answer that here as it was meant rhetorically.
God has called me to research and write about this stuff. Frankly, I'd rather be reading the voluminous material I have on doctrine and/or furthering my education in this area by going to seminary. One of my goals is to learn Greek - a goal hindered by the work for the CrossWise blog. However, if that's what God has called me to do, then I will surely be much better doing His will rather than my own. And, I've tried to walk away from doing this sort of thing; and, when I do, more information 'falls into my lap' and I'm given the drive to do more.
Craig,
ReplyDeleteIf CS's church started off as part of IHOP but then repudiated IHOP when it realised IHOP was tainted, are you going to condemn it forever?
The apostolic-era church comprised a congregation in each town, with NO HIERARCHY above that. When a hierarchical church has a theological battle within itself, the invariable result is division into two hierarchies. Hierarchies then multiply, each claiming to be the One True Church. If we had only stuck with the apostolic structure, there could be no church disunity, just the occasional apostate congregation, ie damage limitation. God knew what He was doing. We instituted hierarchy as a change from the church's earliest tradition as recorded in its own scriptures, and we did it without divine authority. What a mess it has led to.
In China, God permitted a persecution under communism that cut off believers from their denominations. The result,a couple of generations later, is a flourishing house church movement based on the apostolic/scriptural structure and comprising 5% of the 2bn population of China, ie the largest Christian movement in the history of the church. People go on about whether there will be an endtime revival but IT HAS HAPPENED. Somewhere else, that's all. I believe that God will do the same worldwide, ie destroy the hierarchies by persecution and enact church unity by default.
To those who claim to find hierarchy in the NT: Peter was senior among the apostles, and the apostles maintained authority over the churches they founded. But when the apostles had passed to glory, those congregations WERE "the church in Ephesus" (or wherever).
BTW, ALL who believe in Jesus Christ as the human and divine son of Jehovah the Creator, and who believe he was crucified for our sins and was resurrected, are my brothers and sisters.
I guess I should not have posted that Mary cannot hear our prayers because she is dead. Actually, Catholic doctrine is that Mary did not die and was assumed bodily into Heaven. This would be sort of like the Rapture which many of us hope for. If we can be Raptured, I guess she could be, too. And perhaps with a transformed body like that of Jesus, she can hear our prayers.
ReplyDeleteMy only objection to praying to those on the other side is that this is so close to what New Agers do.
They have their Ascended Masters whom they pray to for guidance. I went to groups doing that when I was in the New Age but it always made me sick and I had to leave.
Mary is not to be compared to an Ascended Master, as she is a 'born again Christian". It's just that I left behind all of that attempt to communicate with the Other Side unless it's God I'm communicating with. I feel more comfortable that way, but as I said before I love Catholics, even love Mary and the whole shebang. I found a Catholic church practicing actual seances when I was in the Church in Seattle, and others doing New Age rituals with candles in "initiation", and others teaching the Enneagram as a way for nuns to make a living when they had no other posts..that was tragic.
It's a fine line we follow and I am personally sick of having to follow such rigid rules to get to Heaven. I have been praying God to just come back and take us all to Heaven, or else come back here in the SEcond Coming and stopping our debate. We should be on the same side.
We are on the same side, Christ's side.
Tears for us all.
Dear Christian Soldier,
ReplyDeletePeace. Years ago after my siblings left the RC Church they encouraged me to leave also. Having no strong knowledge about the Church, nor strong convictions at the time, I sat before the Tabernacle and prayed. Was my brother's baptist preacher correct, was the Eucharist just symbolic?
Was it really just a piece bread?
It didn't take long before the phrases, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end leads to death," and then "unless you eat the flesh of the Son
of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in you," came to mind. Needlesstosay, that wasn't the response I was expecting.
Later when I came home , I picked up the Bible and found the first quote in Pr. 14:12 and again in Pr. 16:25. The third quote was from Jn. 6:53.
I clearly understood what the Lord was saying and began to learn about the Church He founded.
Obviously, the smart sounding, former-Catholic-now-saved-for-life-no-matter-what-baptist preacher
was in error on this subject.
Despite what comes out the mouths of some "professed Catholics", or the crazy things they do, my
fidelity to Jesus Christ and His Church won't waiver.
Does it mean we remain locked into the neighborhood parrish for life? Absolutely not!! If and when the teachings and traditions (with both T's) goes amuck, you just seach out a new parrish.
If one began to vomit 5 hours after eating a bowl of chicken noodle soup, does it mean they must never partake of that same brand of chicken noodle soup ever again? How would they know that it was precisely the soup that made them ill vs. something else?
Again, we should never abandon Jesus because of Judas or Peter.
You have the gift of free will and may attend where
ever you please. Keep my story in the back of your mind and always continue to pray for discernment. Remember, prodigal sons and daughters (us), the Catholic Church will always be there when you decide to come home. And they'll keep the light on for you---in the sanctuary lamp before the Tabernacle. Peace.
Miles Christi Sum,
Catherine, I am a soldier of Christ, too.
Okay, that didn't come across exactly right. I typed seach when I meant search. Not unless we can create a new word:
ReplyDeleteseek + search = seach
Just kidding.
Catherine
Catherine,
ReplyDeleteThere's also insinuendo - that's innuendo plus insinuation. (Nothing to do with being in sin...)
And rejellion - that's rejection plus rebellion.
Pax
Read the document, it specifically states...
ReplyDelete"Governments should not serve the world Authority unconditionally. Instead, it is the world Authority that should put itself at the service of the various member countries, according to the principle of subsidiarity."
For some reason the word "Global" frightens people and its usage has become associated with the "New World Order" and evil. It seems an opportunity for Anti-Catholics to jump on the proverbial "The Catholic Church is involved in the New World Order" nonsense bandwagon. As a practicing Catholic and someone who has studied the New Age Movement for several years I have observed many trends in this mode of thinking.
The word "Catholic" itself means "Universal" and surviving records show that it was St. Ignatius of Antioch who first used the word in 107 A.D. Jesus Christ Himself said in John 17:20-21...
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one"
The thing to understand is that The Catholic Church is concerned about the common good for all people of all of the world. Not just certain nations or countries. It is a global institution, which can be traced back to Jesus Christ Himself. The Church is not afraid to use the word "global" or "globalization" because Christ Himself wanted the Gospel preached to ALL the world, not just a couple of nations that think they are special.
Something to consider... The concept of a corrupt New World Order has become extremely popular and well known through articles and television programs. Do you really think that the great deceiver, Satan, is that stupid to pull something that everyone will expect? He is a serpent, cunning, stealthy, unpredictable. He's not going to do something that everyone is expecting, otherwise the deception wouldn't work. I'm not saying at all that there isn't the possibility of a coming corrupt "New World Order" dictatorship, but what is it that will be promoted in this dictatorship? The corruption of morals and values...the extolling of Relativism, mandated abortions, homosexual unions, all forms of lawlessness. A new religion based on the enthroning of man as god. Those are the things the Antichrist is concerned about promoting. The Catholic Church has been well aware for a long time about the dangers of the New Age Movement. Just read "Jesus Christ, Bearer of The Water of Life: A Christian Reflection on The New Age" document which details that fact.
I also encourage you to read some of Cardinal Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict) writings about Relativism and how it has destroyed much of the Christian world throughout this age.
It is important to not let fear rule over common sense.
God Bless In Jesus Christ.
+JMJ+
ONE TRILLION EUROS
ReplyDeleteEuro Zone To Quadruple Bailout Fund
http://www.cnbc.com/id/45049889
To Anonymous @ 6:03 PM:
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for posting that clarification.
The message also is a warning that a CENTRAL MONETARY AUTHORITY SHOULD NOT STEAMROLL OVER SUBSIDIARITY.
(Unfortunately, due to all of the 'hysteria' a lot got lost in the translation.)
I don't recall Jesus attempting to reform the Roman Empire by calling for subsidiarity or any such thing. He promoted a Kingdom not of this earth.
ReplyDeleteDear JMJ,
ReplyDeleteThe document attempts to have it both ways. Sometimes it talks about subsidiarity and the world authority at the service of its components, sometimes it says that the world authority must be just that. I don't think there's a deliberate attempt at incoherence as any "plausible deniability" strategy, just incoherence through failure to think it through properly. Frankly it's not a world authority if it can't enforce final say over its components, and that's that.
Nor do I (a prot) think that the Vatican is plotting to put in place a NWO and be part of it - although I expect it would lobby to advise it on moral matters.
What I do think is that no Christian should be writing these things. We were divided by God at Babel for our own good. Wars of nationalism are less worse than a world dictatorship, as someday we shall find out. People in the Vatican badly need to read and understand Genesis and Revelation. As it is, they are doing Satan's work for him and he must be laughing.
Actually, I think that Satan is probably laughing at all of the continuous dissention going on at this blog!!!
ReplyDeleteTo Constance and friends,
ReplyDeletePlease tbe sure to click onto the hyperlinks in the following article.
Pope Benedict Calls For “Central World Bank” … Only He Didn’t. Here’s Why.
http://www.catholicvote.org/
discuss/index.php?p=21986
Anonymous 8:23 A.M.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the Asisi conference,
Pope rejects Assisi public prayer
Vatican official says focus will not be on interfaith at meeting later this month
http://www.ucanews.com/2011/10/
20/pope-rejects-assisi-public
-prayer/
_______________________
POPE WON'T TAKE PART IN INTERFAITH PRAYERS
http://blackchristiannews.com/news
/2011/10/pope-wont-take-part-in
-interfaith-prayers.html
global financial authority and a world bank just continues the problem of monetized debt. we need to get rid of this. gold standard is not a solution either, gold has no intrinsic value except electrical and chemical maybe health. it is only of value because people value it. the strength the dollar used to have was entirely due to taking gold OUT of the free market and the original Bretton Woods Agreement fixed it at $35 an ounce.
ReplyDeleteSome countries in the past and currently China, have two currencies, one for internal use only which is worthless outside, and one for international use (I suppose a traveller exchanges the local currency for the outside currency on leaving).
So called funny money, just print and distribute and rule that this is legal tender, a medium of exchange for whatever so that if you don't have what someone wants in barter you have this and they can get what they want, is real money.
inflation is not caused by amount of money circulating, one economics study card cited a source that said the calculation that produced this idea depends on a highly questionable element of the analysis.
the Indians who used cowrie shells, that anyone could pick up lying around a stream bank and no limit on what was available to circulate, or bead strings, did not have an inflation problem.
A hidden driver in inflation is the real estate industry, because land values increasing then increase overhead (mortgages taxes) that are passed on to customers if the land is a shop, and that in turn drive a need to demand higher wages to pay for these goods and services.
capitalism and communism are both illusions.
HOWEVER, there is good solid research that the Vatican has been infiltrated by power hungry satanists and the worst kinds of masons from the 1800s on.
Anon@8.16am,
ReplyDeleteMosaic Law advocates a free market in goods but regulated markets in labour, land and money. Wisdom!
The Vatican behaved a lot worse before 1800AD than after. There has been nothing like the Inquisition and the Renaissance Popes in the last 200 years.
Mosaic Law applied to the nation Israel, theocracy. There is no longer a theocracy
ReplyDelete