tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post5543665045162322221..comments2024-03-28T17:51:54.517-04:00Comments on My perspective -- What Constance thinks: Global Core Curriculum -- Robert Muller is dead but his AAB inspired 'Global Core Curriculum' lives.Constance Cumbeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07181096121385621574noreply@blogger.comBlogger305125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-40098812622429487022020-02-08T07:04:55.181-05:002020-02-08T07:04:55.181-05:00HOW I GOT MY HUSBAND BACK HOME
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/>20167.6chenjinyan<br />Fangyayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519670460652981048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-68913149348584773992013-05-30T09:57:30.149-04:002013-05-30T09:57:30.149-04:00"f the earliest term for the head of the meet..."f the earliest term for the head of the meeting was "president" and this person is the one who made the Eucharistic Blessing, and women were presidents until Laodicea said not to do this anymore, it follows they were (when presidents) giving the Eucharistic Blessing."<br /><br />But those present at Loadicea themselves said, that these women were not allowed to offer sacrifice, but to minister.<br /><br />You are making connections that do not exist.<br /><br />REPLY: they didn't say that that was not the case before their council, merely that that was not to be done any more.<br /><br />They didn't say that women had not been performing the Eucharistic sacrifice, they didn't say that presidents did not do this, or that women had not been presidents. <br /><br />They admitted women HAD been presidents, because they said that women should not be presidents ANY MORE.<br /><br />Since Justin Martyr said the president of the meeting made the Eucharistic sacrifice, if a woman was president then she made the Eucharistic sacrifice.<br /><br />neither did they say that acts already done by women presidents were invalid (which would include more than the Eucharist). <br /><br />They said women were not be presidents ANY MORE and did not say that those who had spent their lives receiving the Eucharist from such had to get a "real" Eucharist from a male president.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-7408214458580718162013-05-30T09:52:23.270-04:002013-05-30T09:52:23.270-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-90549266133187700862013-05-30T09:50:53.275-04:002013-05-30T09:50:53.275-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-55241533012080908072013-05-30T09:47:55.191-04:002013-05-30T09:47:55.191-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-44834543248024978652013-05-03T16:27:05.086-04:002013-05-03T16:27:05.086-04:00Christine,
I will take your leave, because I do n...Christine,<br /><br />I will take your leave, because I do not want to argue anymore. It's obvious that the teachings on the priesthood explain what a priest is needed for. That's all I need.<br /><br />I do not need, you adding in other people's views and making connections, and trying to tell me, this is what this all means.<br /><br />I can read for myself.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-89065227343236424682013-05-03T16:19:43.873-04:002013-05-03T16:19:43.873-04:00"f the earliest term for the head of the meet..."f the earliest term for the head of the meeting was "president" and this person is the one who made the Eucharistic Blessing, and women were presidents until Laodicea said not to do this anymore, it follows they were (when presidents) giving the Eucharistic Blessing."<br /><br />But those present at Loadicea themselves said, that these women were not allowed to offer sacrifice, but to minister.<br /><br />You are making connections that do not exist.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-74324154514663004442013-05-03T16:16:42.359-04:002013-05-03T16:16:42.359-04:00"It is clear that UNTIL that time, in some pl..."It is clear that UNTIL that time, in some places they WERE at the altar. the assumption they could never have served in the altar the same way a man would, has women excluded even from cleaning around the altar though in some churches this is allowed with a special blessing from the priest.<br /><br />"Because of this assumption, in some Orthodox jurisdictions, a female baby at baptism is not carried around the altar but a male baby is, while in other jurisdictions the female baby is carried around the altar."<br /><br />I do agree these things are wrong, But two wrongs do not make a right. <br /><br />In the Eastern liturgy, the altar is also the place beyond, so even the priest does not go there, except when preparing for the liturgy.<br /><br />"that if you take the Church as Bride ergo female and priest as Christ, too far in exact analogy you have a legitimization of homosexuality especially if the priest always plays the male role and laity the female and the women of course can do each other?"<br /><br />Christine, I have never come across this nonsense. Since, it's the Eucharist that is the nuptial mystery, not the priest himself.<br /><br />The priest merely exists to make this present.<br /><br />It's the sacrifice of Christ and the Eucharist that is the meeting point for men and women.<br /><br />Masculine and feminine are universal principles, because the creator made us male and female. There is no sexless humanity.<br /><br />The whole genderless nonsense is about pushing LGBT politics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-4626088278091245842013-05-03T16:15:53.357-04:002013-05-03T16:15:53.357-04:00Christine,
Are you seriously Orthodox?
Yes, we d...Christine,<br /><br />Are you seriously Orthodox?<br /><br />Yes, we do not have the Mosaic or Aaronic priesthood anymore, in the sense that it was pointing to the coming of Christ. <br /><br />Now Christ is the only priest and the the priesthood continues his sacrifice at every divine liturgy.<br /><br />"Sacerdotal ideas about representing Christ and therefore having to be male DO NOT PLAY A PART."<br /><br />only insofar as maleness is held up as superiority in general and therefore Christ was male."<br /><br />Sure there were opinions held, but in actual teachings on the priesthood. It was clarified why priests were needed and what the liturgy was about.<br /><br />"When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled [made purple in coloring] by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you lifted up to heaven? – <br /><br /><br />St. John Chrysostom On the Priesthood 3.4.177<br /><br />According to St. John Chrysostom, Christ is literally present on the altar.<br /><br />‘Because the Bread is one, we, the many, are in one Body’16. ‘Why do I say communion?’ he says; ‘for we are that very Body.’ What is the Bread? The Body of Christ! What do they become who are partakers therein? The Body of Christ! Not many bodies, but one Body. For just as the bread, consisting of many grains, is made one, and the grains are no longer evident, but still exist, though their distinction is not apparent in their conjunction; so too are we conjoined to each other and to Christ. <br /><br /><br />For you are not nourished by one Body while someone else is nourished by another Body; rather, all are nourished by the same Body." –<br /><br />Jesus is male because he is the son of God, not the other way around.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-73125488112701061192013-05-03T15:11:07.452-04:002013-05-03T15:11:07.452-04:00the reference to divine law can only be about the ...the reference to divine law can only be about the curse on Eve, which is a misapplication. Mosaic priesthood rules also are irrelevant since with a change of priesthood there is a change of law, says Paul in Hebrews, and we do not have the Levitical or Aaronic priesthood anymore.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-13275764183937234672013-05-03T15:07:36.735-04:002013-05-03T15:07:36.735-04:00in case you can't understand the point about a...in case you can't understand the point about analogies the point is that ANY analogies about church God relationship between them etc. have to be vague and not overapplied as exact analogies.<br /><br />Laodicea forbade women to be the presider over a congregation. That is what a priest is, the word is from presbyter or elder not hieros or priest in the classic sacerdotal sense in pagan Greek culture. <br /><br />Another canon said women were not to be at the altar.<br /><br />It is clear that UNTIL that time, in some places they WERE at the altar. the assumption they could never have served in the altar the same way a man would, has women excluded even from cleaning around the altar though in some churches this is allowed with a special blessing from the priest.<br /><br />Because of this assumption, in some Orthodox jurisdictions, a female baby at baptism is not carried around the altar but a male baby is, while in other jurisdictions the female baby is carried around the altar.<br /><br />Eliminate the assumption, and you have a different picture. That at one time there were women who were fit to teach (the primary role of bishop and priest) and direct, and who performed the role of Eucharistic Blessing, because the person who presides as head of the family or group having a meal together gives the lesser blessing ("says grace") the analogy in Paul's letters is made comparing the human family with the larger family the church and the elder and bishop should have the ability to properly raise and direct a smaller family before he cares for the larger family.<br /><br />this parallel is exact. head of meal says grace. head of congregation says the Eucharist.<br /><br />ordaining women was never called a heresy and was never the reason a group was called heretical, it was only mentioned about some who were under attack for reasons of doctrine. Even the canons that forbade this didn't say it was heresy just implied it was disobedience, and didn't specify deposing of a bishop who went ahead and did this unlike many other canons about other matters. Clearly this was not seen as being as important as doctrinal, sexual or financial corruption issues.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-45207436393239860622013-05-03T14:55:08.540-04:002013-05-03T14:55:08.540-04:001. Laodicea downgraded their activities and said t...1. Laodicea downgraded their activities and said they were not to be appointed anymore AT ALL. The deaconnesses existed and canons regulate them. Earlier ones say they are to be ordained later one say not.<br /><br />Deacons in early times were not "Holy Orders" they were care takers. This changed over time. <br /><br />If the earliest term for the head of the meeting was "president" and this person is the one who made the Eucharistic Blessing, and women were presidents until Laodicea said not to do this anymore, it follows they were (when presidents) giving the Eucharistic Blessing.<br /><br />do you think all procedures, terms and even outfits worn are the same now as the first two or three centuries? <br /><br />If Gelasius could complain that women were being ordained in some Orthodox churches, it was bishops doing this ordaining.<br /><br />ALWAYS when anyone argued against this, the issue was that women were created inferior and to be under rule, ignoring that this was not part of the original creation only part of the curse after The Fall. <br /><br />Sacerdotal ideas about representing Christ and therefore having to be male DO NOT PLAY A PART. <br /><br />only insofar as maleness is held up as superiority in general and therefore Christ was male.<br /><br />May I point out, that if you take the Church as Bride ergo female and priest as Christ, too far in exact analogy you have a legitimization of homosexuality especially if the priest always plays the male role and laity the female and the women of course can do each other?<br /><br />don't call me dirty minded, I merely see how an argument can go and I would not be surprised if this line of thought IS secretly existing among some individuals doing these perversions.<br /><br />There WAS a priest who taught his young male seducees that they were receiving holy communion when they drank his semen. <br /><br />Sorry for the obscenity, but it is an example of how you cannot take such sacerdotal analogies as anything but vague not exact.<br /><br />The main analogy Christ gave was Himself as main trunk of a vine and us as the branches. The Church as bride is a whole other kind of analogy, and incl. the priest himself. <br /><br />God is compared loosely to a rock but clearly is not comparable because a rock can be broken up and God cannot be broken up, and a rock is not intelligent and God is intelligent, and so forth. It is only in the limited sense of rock as strong, stable, something to be based safely on, or to hide behind if attacked, its comparative strength these are the vague analogies. An exact analogy of God to rock fails out of hand.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-81752664119598160042013-05-03T14:54:42.351-04:002013-05-03T14:54:42.351-04:001. Laodicea downgraded their activities and said t...1. Laodicea downgraded their activities and said they were not to be appointed anymore AT ALL. The deaconnesses existed and canons regulate them. Earlier ones say they are to be ordained later one say not.<br /><br />Deacons in early times were not "Holy Orders" they were care takers. This changed over time. <br /><br />If the earliest term for the head of the meeting was "president" and this person is the one who made the Eucharistic Blessing, and women were presidents until Laodicea said not to do this anymore, it follows they were (when presidents) giving the Eucharistic Blessing.<br /><br />do you think all procedures, terms and even outfits worn are the same now as the first two or three centuries? <br /><br />If Gelasius could complain that women were being ordained in some Orthodox churches, it was bishops doing this ordaining.<br /><br />ALWAYS when anyone argued against this, the issue was that women were created inferior and to be under rule, ignoring that this was not part of the original creation only part of the curse after The Fall. <br /><br />Sacerdotal ideas about representing Christ and therefore having to be male DO NOT PLAY A PART. <br /><br />only insofar as maleness is held up as superiority in general and therefore Christ was male.<br /><br />May I point out, that if you take the Church as Bride ergo female and priest as Christ, too far in exact analogy you have a legitimization of homosexuality especially if the priest always plays the male role and laity the female and the women of course can do each other?<br /><br />don't call me dirty minded, I merely see how an argument can go and I would not be surprised if this line of thought IS secretly existing among some individuals doing these perversions.<br /><br />There WAS a priest who taught his young male seducees that they were receiving holy communion when they drank his semen. <br /><br />Sorry for the obscenity, but it is an example of how you cannot take such sacerdotal analogies as anything but vague not exact.<br /><br />The main analogy Christ gave was Himself as main trunk of a vine and us as the branches. The Church as bride is a whole other kind of analogy, and incl. the priest himself. <br /><br />God is compared loosely to a rock but clearly is not comparable because a rock can be broken up and God cannot be broken up, and a rock is not intelligent and God is intelligent, and so forth. It is only in the limited sense of rock as strong, stable, something to be based safely on, or to hide behind if attacked, its comparative strength these are the vague analogies. An exact analogy of God to rock fails out of hand.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-66157615424574606172013-05-03T14:41:25.704-04:002013-05-03T14:41:25.704-04:00Christine,
You are making connections that do not...Christine,<br /><br />You are making connections that do not exist. <br /><br />The Council of Laodicea and those present there, explicitly held the view that these women were not allowed to offer sacrifice, but only minister.<br /><br />Justin Martyr using the word President does not mean anything. in the same way that a male deacon does not mean a female deaconess.<br /><br />Since, one receives the sacrament of Holy Orders and the other does not, even if they hold the same honorary titles.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-1640029349373593202013-05-02T23:46:07.126-04:002013-05-02T23:46:07.126-04:00Sigh. I will try to make this even simpler than I ...Sigh. I will try to make this even simpler than I thought I did.<br /><br />Laodicea said women were not to be appointed presidents ANY MORE, so before that there had been some churches that had women as presidents.<br /><br />Justin Martyr is the authority for "president" being the name in use at the early times, for the person who gave the Eucharistic blessing.<br /><br />can't you put two and two together?<br /><br />President gives Eucharistic blessing i.e., performs the Eucharist.<br /><br />over 200 years later, the order is given to stop having women presidents.<br /><br />Therefore, some churches effectively ordained women. <br /><br />Since St. Ignatius tells us that nothing should be done without the bishop and bishop means overseer, no woman would have been a president without the bishop's okay.<br /><br />The Council of Laodicea (without stating how many were for or against this measure only that it passed) forbade women to be presidents any more.<br /><br />If presidents performed the Eucharist, and some presidents were women, then long ago sometimes women were performing the Eucharist.<br /><br />Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-43825776293747902172013-05-02T23:16:17.483-04:002013-05-02T23:16:17.483-04:00Christine,
You keep confusing distinctions. I nev...Christine,<br /><br />You keep confusing distinctions. I never said women were not leaders. I said, they were never priests in both the East or the West.<br /><br />Please show me where the Council held that a Female President could give a Eucharistic blessing.<br /><br />You connect this to Justin Martyr, despite the fact that he makes no mention of female presidents.<br /><br />The President here could have been male.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-17450736158280515652013-05-02T11:51:15.275-04:002013-05-02T11:51:15.275-04:00thank you. but my situation goes back decades to c...thank you. but my situation goes back decades to childhood. it is quite complex and probably incl. an element of being psychically attacked and energy feed (psy) vampirized by my biological so called mother. the symptoms of clinical depression overlap those of psychic attack. some antidepressants (imipramine and prozac) have a certain anti psychic angle to them as well. some people call this "chemical exorcism." <br /><br />I figured out long ago, that you can be a victim of a hex from someone else, or a victim of a hex from yourself, so to speak, in the latter case you are just a psychiatric case. the two are hardly incompatible. <br /><br />so you could say I would phase in and out of competence to get things done. consistency is what an employer would want. the cycling is less in a fog for shorter times, so I figure I will be consistently okay in the next couple of years.<br /><br />That article does not mention physical pain and paralyzing lethargy. but that is part of clinical depression also. massive doses of minerals can help. Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-18155631421733459952013-05-02T11:05:22.760-04:002013-05-02T11:05:22.760-04:00Here's something of interest to explore Christ...Here's something of interest to explore Christine. (Is this your situation?-I have no way of knowing-but worth a look perhaps)<br /><br />http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/05/01/study-depression-may-be-overdiagnosed-and-overtreated/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-69712341540201446072013-05-01T12:52:26.260-04:002013-05-01T12:52:26.260-04:00by the way, Deborah is called wife of Lapidoth, no...by the way, Deborah is called wife of Lapidoth, not a widow, so in being Judge she was also superior to her husband. Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-85156808364996714822013-05-01T12:51:00.195-04:002013-05-01T12:51:00.195-04:00"Justin Martyr does not indicate that Preside..."Justin Martyr does not indicate that President was female here."<br /><br />he doesn't have to. The point is that the "president" was the one who gave the Eucharistic blessing, and Laodicea shows that there were female presidents.<br /><br /><br />"they were infesting Orthodox churches as well as having their own, some priests and bishops allowed them others did not, finally things came to a head and they were formally anathematized."<br /><br />Yes, in other words, there was a consensus that women should not be ordained.<br /><br />NO. What I said referred to the Montanists, their heresy was like modern hypercharismatics or indeed any charismatic who gets the gift of tongues by having someone lay hands on them and then tell them to open their mouths and say whatever came out.<br /><br />This is EXACTLY what St. Irenaeus in AGAINST HERESIES described one gnostic group was doing, or one particular leader I forget which, and he rightly calls this presumptuous.<br /><br />The consensus was against MONTANISM.<br /><br />any anti ordination of women consensus developed totally separately from this. It was considered a kind of disorderliness, not a matter of validity.<br /><br />Even now, a defrocked priest (male)<br />in RC is believed to perform a VALID Eucharist if he does so, but it is done ILLEGITIMATELY that is unlawfully, but it is still a real Eucharist. <br /><br />The issues raised were ones of female role, not being scandalous to pagans, etc. etc. Validity of such a sacrament has not been mentioned once in anything I have read or you have brought up from those days.<br /><br />as for matriarchy or equality, all that was dead in the water among pagans long before Judaism or Christianity.<br /><br />But as for women's role and that doesn't incl. leadership, why did God Himself make the prophet Deborah a Judge over Israel? This is the closest thing to a king before there was a kingship. More like prime minister with YHWH as King.Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-71732417935509977192013-04-30T16:48:48.883-04:002013-04-30T16:48:48.883-04:00Christine,
Luther, was partly correct. However, h...Christine,<br /><br />Luther, was partly correct. However, he did away with the sacrament of Holy Orders, which defeated the purpose. He also saw the timeless sacrifice as re-sacrificing Christ.<br /><br />Western theology has always been more about logic. Eastern, more mystical. <br /><br />Faith and reason go together.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-56660811371309987462013-04-30T16:33:18.320-04:002013-04-30T16:33:18.320-04:00you are wrong about Luther, he taught transformati...you are wrong about Luther, he taught transformation of the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood, it was later protestant groups that treated it as mere representation.<br /><br />The term symbol or symbolon in Greek, mistreated as meaning mere sign not reality, means a sign that IS a reality, that is connected to and embodies the reality so much that it is that reality.<br /><br />That is why the Creed is called "the symbol of the faith," it is the faith. <br /><br />Lutheranism however thinks that The Body and Blood are added to and after the ceremony leaves or something like that. But the literal presence is believed in, albeit not full and permanent transformation.<br /><br />"transubstantiation" is a doctrine of not only transformation, but of mechanistic and nit picky details on how and when, things that Orthodoxy prefers to consider a not entirely comprehensible mystery, so we generally say "transformation."Christine Erikson (aka Justina)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11594093718714798117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11772087.post-74772054827752710352013-04-30T16:19:57.270-04:002013-04-30T16:19:57.270-04:00Christine,
I agree about baptism. St. Epiphanus d...Christine,<br /><br />I agree about baptism. St. Epiphanus did not approve of women baptizing, but he also noted that women were not ordained to offer sacrifice. This is the mark of the priesthood. Is my point.<br /><br />It was Luther that broke with the Eucharist as sacrifice. Hence did not see Holy Orders as a sacrament.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com