Sunday, February 26, 2012
To those of us old enough to remember the "hippie movements" of the late 1960s and 1970s, this had a sense of what the New Agers would probably term "deja vu." We've seen this before. Residents complained that drugs were obviously in use. Doors were ripped off hinges, bathroom sanitation was non-existent. Anarchist signs were painted on their new "Peace City."
You can read about it and view video reports by clicking here.
Welcome to the "New Age."
doors off hinges? why not just prop them open? sometimes you have to crap when all the toilets are "occupied" but can't one clean up after oneself? wipe with socks, someone should be in charge of toilet paper acquisition and distribution. Ah, but that would be fascist.
property is theft? Bakunin wasn't it? sometimes property can be theft, Isaiah reports God denouncing people who add land to land until there is nothing left, but property is also a boundary in which you can control your environment.
The organizers and founders of Occupy are either in denial about original sin and its effects (of course) and in some dream world about the inherent goodness of humanity (yeah? whence the 1% then? not to mention all similar drives exploited by them among the 99% to create the problems complained of?) or have some twisted notions about what constitutes "the good."
Occupy is a mixed bag of tricks, and apparently the better element is not the majority of it, or exerting any influence or allowed to exert any controls on the rest. This is what you get with anarchy.
Occupy and Wall St have correct opinions of each other but not of much else.
This might surprise you (Christine) but of Constance's regular contributors I am the...
PhD in Physics
more importantly, they are also PARENTS and grandparents. Unfortunately, being evil or stupid doesn't automatically render you sterile.
"family values," remember? but what kind of family values, any and all nasty or good values percolate through family generations and always have. America has always been a mission field and corruption in office and need for moral reform among the populace is nothing new. There may have been a few generations where these efforts bore fruit in a majority, but we were never "pure." A good reality check is a book "The Way We Never Were."
However, laws and formal concepts for public consumption kept things in check. These have been undermined.
correction to myself - these have been almost eliminated.
Or, as Neil Young answers a heckler (perhaps staged) on a somewhat recent live album who says "It all sounds the same" to which Young answers:
"It's all one song"
the memories of this person or some features imprint like parents and peer group can, only it is without such clear distinguishability, so the memories of one being are mistaken by the human as its own memories.
(note to Ph.D. i know all your arguments about telepathy, please don't repeat them. the model of radio broadcast would explain it.)
I will give you an example from myself. When i first started to talk, i called my father "abba" and my biological socalled mother "emmay." this is Hebrew for father and mother.
Where did I get it? racial memory from Khazar ancestors (how much Hebrew did they use) on the Ashkenazic part of the pedigree? Reincarnation? I took no position. It was just there.
More recently, I found that these terms were retained in Orthodoxy usually referring to monastics.
So I guess what happened, was that I picked up something spiritually or psychically from some such Russian Orthodox visiting a new mother in the same nursery I was in. There was an expatriate Russian community in SF where I was born.
This would also explain a strange attraction I felt at a heart level to the Russian heartland and east, no particular reason. It would be a feature of someone I perhaps interfaced to who was from there.
I was always very loosely attached to my body, and several episodes occurred that involved my saying I was there for events in the house when I was not in the room, and suchlike incl. a near death experience, all details remembered made sense only years later when I read about bilocation.
So this baby is bilocating around and hooks onto some friendly maybe even sensitive monastics from Russia? A scenario that would explain everything, no reincarnation needed.
Later this loose connection stopped, i think something scared me and I stopped tripping around. That is the only explanation unless getting older makes you less likely to bilocate.
Just the latest from Javier Solana from January 31 this year.
This site has lots of interesting posts from worldwide leaders which have lots of NWO language.
A World Bank for a New World
The article discusses why the new World Bank leader should not be another Wall Street guy (from the US).
I am transferring my old floppies to other media and think I just discovered a disk you sent me in 1995!
I haven't kept track of any of them. If you recognize anyone relevant or can add to the information on them, email me firstname.lastname@example.org
This is the physicist, and while I believe it is sometimes worth repeating arguments for the sake of Constance's readers (this is a blog not a private discussion) I again agree with you. Christians will reject reincarnation because of Hebrews 9:27, which is utterly unambiguous - no claims about about context can make any difference to the conclusion. For Jews there's an almost equally suggestive verse in the OT, in one of the Psalms if I remember correctly.
If a person believes that he or she is a reincarnation then I agree with you that it is almost certainly due to a spirit. Out-of-body experiences are not normal either and I would seek help from wise churchmen for that.
"Abba" is about the simplest sound for a baby to make, and "emmay" the next - nothing mysterious about that!
"This video was uploaded by silverredindigo, aka Doreen Dotan. The Jewish Kabblahist that I exposed recently. She titled it "Breaking News! Oldest Bible found in Palestine - Jesus was a Servant NOT God Himself" Did she really think she would persuade any Christian that the information in this video is true?
1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."
Cumbey also quite often references the lyrics "There's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear" taken from the tune "For What It's Worth" from 1966 by the rock band Buffalo Springfield which contained both Neil Young and Stephen Stills who would be future members of CSN&Y.
That was my line of thought.
form of reincarnation isn't Biblical.
The little jury in my head is still
out on that one:
13) "For all the prophets and the Law
prophesied until John
14) And if you wish to accept it, he is
Elijah who was to come
15) He who has ears let him hear."
The idea sure seems to have been
prevalent among the Apostles and
disciples in Jesus' time.
Matthew 16: 13-16
13) When Jesus came into the
country of Caesarea Philippi, he
asked his disciples saying, What
do men say concerning me, that
I am merely a son of man ?
14) They said, There are some
who say John the Baptist, others
Elijah, and still others Jeremiah
or one of the prophets.
15) He said to them Who do you
say that I am ?
16) Simon Peter answered saying
You are the Christ, the Son of the
What gets me about New Age
people is that they seem to
think that we are all on the
verge of some kind of major
breakthrough in "spiritual
evolution"._But if we are
standing here after having
been reincarnated hundreds of
times, then that would actually
indicate, according to Hinduism,
that we are in fact the most
stubbornly ignorant of all people
of history, since we still haven't
"moved on to spiritual realms".
We all should have "graduated"
And maybe that's the case: The
dead in Christ rest in peace, but
this last generation of people are
just the most sinfully stubborn
and willful against God, who are
living their last chance to repent.
I'm just saying, I don't know that
that's not the case.
It's for certain that Joshua, and
Isaiah, and Jeremiah are at least
foreshadowing of Jesus the Christ.
in other words, prayer for the dead is valid. RC inventing purgatory, effectively limiting prayer for the dead to believers only and making a racket out of it has no bearing on this. When a martyr It think it was Perpetua was waiting for death, she dreamed of her brother in flames, woke, prayed for him, dreamed again of him in paradise.
This may have been worry created nightmare followed by wish fulfilling dream and of no relevance, but WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS THAT SHE DID NOT HESITATE TO PRAY FOR ONE DEAD AND PRESUMABLY DAMNED.
That means she wasn't getting the teaching in church the usual protestants and evangelicals get now.
Elijah and John the Baptist are an interesting situation.
Elijah you may recall NEVER DIED. Like Enoch he was translated into heaven not the highest heaven of course, but made immortal. Maybe the resurrection body ahead of time.
So he couldn't be reincarnating. But he could have overshadowed John the Baptist so much that a kind of co walking was going on, not in the sense of possession.
Again, since Elijah never died, he couldn't reincarnate. There was some Jewish tradition that referred to one of the lesser prophets as Jeremiah the second or something like that, because he wrote so similar to Jeremiah they thought he was overshadowed or influenced by Jeremiah's soul.
St Paul also says that your chance of salvation closes at death (2 Cor 5:10). Although the dead are in a place of waiting called Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek), where *perhaps* our prayers can make a difference to them, their fate after resurrection and judgement was settled at their death; it is only a matter of waiting and we can do nothing about that fate. There is an exception for the antediluvian generation *only* according to St Peter (1 Pe 3:17-4:6). He must have got this by talking to the resurrected Jesus about where He had been during His three days in the tomb. It therefore precedes St Paul's pronouncement.
While I see no room for Purgatory in this scenario, I understand why Roman Catholics argue for it. Protestants who say that your sins are forgiven and that is the end of it need to face the fact that sanctification is not complete when we die. I believe it is completed at the moment of our resurrection; when Paul says that at that instant "we shall be changed" (1 Cor 15:52) there is every reason to suppose he means in mind as well as body. You can't have an imperfect mind in a perfect body; it would cause the latter to start decaying.
PS It's "Death and Hades" that ultimately perish, not "Death and Gehenna" - big difference.
Purgatory is a nonstarter, because it unbiblically posits a realm of the saved who are in purging torments as distinct from hell itself. EO always prayed for the dead, split opinion over Christian dead only or all dead, Orthodox dead only or all Christians, never held to purgatory.
Christ warns of believers getting punishments for things they did, which do not go as far as full exclusion from the Kingdom of Heaven, at the Judgement though some of the worst would be thrown out with the unbelievers.
That something was an exception only is not specified, and not part of the early Church tradition, as indicated by the actions of St. Perpetua I described.
Taking sola scriptura to exclude the teaching of Luther, Calvin, RC and everybody, I found that there are things in The Bible that do support some of the things protestants rejected in RC, but not all and often not in the format presented by RC.
I was originally anti RC and evangelical, and slowly came to the EO position.
note two things also. Jesus says in Luke that God is not the God of the dead but of the living "FOR ALL LIVE UNTO HIM," and David says in a Psalm, "though I make my bed in hell, behold Thou art there," Ps. 139:8 KJV. nothing and no place is beyond God's reach.
Second, the rich man appeals to Abraham, not to God Himself. (and Abraham doesn't say, that Lazarus cannot go to the living with a message only that he cannot cross from the land of the blessed dead to the land of the cursed dead, and that going to the living would be pointless as they would not believe even though one rose from the dead, probably a hint about Christ's upcoming Crucifixion and Resurrection). Neither does the rich man ask Abraham to pray to God for him.
(this also would point to broadcast type communication possible without extension of the spirit of the person or presence of the spirit of the person, telepathy relevant perhaps.)
In any case, it doesn't hurt to pray for the dead. Perhaps they can attain forgiveness, sure, on their own they may not be inclined to call to YHWH or Jesus, but God can do anything, incl. put a heart in them (heart is a part of mind, not just feelings in the Bible) to call to Him.
To say otherwise is to limit God. However, you can argue that what He CAN do and what He WILL do are different things, which is true as far as it goes, but you cannot guarantee what He will or will not do, after all, He told Moses "I will have mercy on who I will have mercy."
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is also a paraphrase - otherwise it would be inconsistent with may scriptures that suffering comes to those who died not in faith after judgement, which happns to all on the same day and lies ahead. Think what point Jesus wanted to make to the people to whom he told it.
Take 2 Cor 5:10 together with the criteria for judgement in Revelation. your name has to be in the Book of Life. Unless you have never sinned then that is done by faith - and your faith at your death, at that.
could say that one's judgement is simply
the state that ones returns in; a greedy
self serving life could come back as a pig,
or a politician or something like that.
Hebrews 9:27 could be used to confirm
And how is what Jesus said regarding John
the Baptist ambiguous ?
Yes, but He is true to His word and thankfully He has told us how to get saved. He is not Allah!
the Baptist ambiguous ?"
Because ELIJAH NEVER DIED.
also in reincarnation, you do not retain most memory let alone mission and so forth. personal identity is lost.
"Yes, but He is true to His word and thankfully He has told us how to get saved. He is not Allah!"
What does that mean? do you think He is going to box Himself into limitations? certainty of salvation for all is a heresy. possibility of salvation after death is a separate issue.
That's possibility not certitude. But the tradition from early times, and the clear warnings of Scripture, is that you can get saved and get UNSAVED Paul warns against falling away, Jesus in the Parable of the Sower describes those who receive The Word then fall away, and two Judgement scenes show professed believers who led iniquitous lives being cast out.
Also, the tradition from earliest times included prayer for the dead, it is only lies from anabaptists and calvinist extremists that hide this fact from us, and the IMPLICATION in Scripture supports this.
Salvation isn't just a one time thing, it is a process, the starting point and the growing and bearing fruit. you can nit pick it into details like justification and sanctification and regeneration and glorification but it adds up to the same thing, some bear more fruit some less.
So much we are used to as "biblical" just ISN'T.
I don't speak as one loyal to a tradition I converted to, but as one who learned this from The Bible ignoring what humans said, read it through three times each time in a matter of months, so had a lot still in memory from the start and middle as I got to the end, and came to certain conclusions.
Take the rejection of the idea of blessed objects and relics. Well, how about Elisha's bones bringing a dead man back to life? How about the cloths Paul blessed and sent around, or the healing effect of Peter's shadow?
There is a lot of stuff that is just taken on faith from preachers sure they quote the Bible accurately and don't go whole context.
How anyone deduces no chance after death even if prayed for, out of 2Cor. cited earlier when it doesn't even address the subject, is an example. We are just TOLD this means that, instead of letting everything speak for itself, in context, and all on the subject and then, what was said and done by people in the first generations after The Apostles?
It may be, that the proliferation of teaching against prayer for the dead, and the idea of purgatory which limits it to prayer for believing but sinning dead, is a trick of the devil to keep many more dead in chains.
So pray for the dead. It can't hurt them or you.
Re:St Paul also says that your chance of salvation closes at death (2 Cor 5:10). Although the dead are in a place of waiting called Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek), where *perhaps* our prayers can make a difference to them, their fate after resurrection and judgement was settled at their death; it is only a matter of waiting and we can do nothing about that fate.
Although we may find ourselves using slightly different terminology, I am pretty much in agreement with you here.
Unfortunately, the scandalous abuses involving the "selling of indulgences" has distorted the concept of how God's justice and mercy work together in harmony for our good.
At the moment of death we are either saved or damned. Our choice is fixed and we can no longer change our minds.
There is no one in hell who does not deserve to be there for all eternity. The reason why is because they do not want to leave. The only "heaven" they want is "heaven" on their terms and if they cannot have it then hell is where they prefer to remain.
We must never forget that God has endowed us with the gift of free will and God does not take back His gift - not even after we die.
It was the late Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen who wrote in his book GO TO HEAVEN that if God were to proclaim some sort of divine amnesty, round up all the damned and make them go to heaven, this would be a great cruelty on the part of God because heaven for the damned would be an even greater hell than hell.
If we are either saved or damned at the moment of death, then Purgatory is simply a vestibule of heaven.
This is the way I learned it:
Imagine a person who has been invited to a spectacular feast hosted by a great King where all the most beautiful people who ever lived would be present all well-gromed and clothed in finest attire. The person wants more than anything to attend this feast, but alas! He has been working in a pigsty all day and his clothes are "as filthy rags" and he is all dirty and smelly.
The person would hardly want to attend the feast looking and smelling the way he does - not even if all the charitable people there were to indicate that they wouldn't mind.
He would more likely ask the Host to bring him first to a place where he could get cleaned up and properly groomed and clothed for the feast.
It was St. Catherine of Genoa who pointed out in her TREATISE ON PURGATORY - often alluded to by C.S. Lewis - that a soul would rather endure a thousand hells than to appear before the divine Majesty whilst even the slightest stain of sin remained.
However, few of us can undo anything we have done, only seek forgiveness. And the lake of fire is probably worse or a continuation in some cases of what those in hell have. The Russian Orthodox theory is that during the first 40 days after death, if you don't go straight to heaven, you wander around and tend to congregate with spirits compatible to you, which may of course be a very bad lot. Or get grabbed by some demon you entertained a lot.
Ergo prayers for the dead to rescue them from this stuff.
Now, the dead are conscious. Anyone conscious, especially if given an impetus from God, can repent and seek forgiveness from God, especially if Christ is periodically going in Person and preaching to them. By now, their experiences may have taught them that what they despised in teaching in life is true,
however, it is also argued that the condition they find themselves in now, is a foretaste of their eternal condition, good bad or indifferent.
A Jerusalem Patriarch in the 1600s, or one of the bishops in an attached document to the council that rejected Calvinism, observed that there are only two locations, heaven and hell, but there are many varied layers or conditions within them, and nothing is final until the Last Judgement.
If someone's foretaste is to be in something not like flame and torment but more like earthbound, it may be they need help getting to heaven, and are not totally lost.
One near death situation a man reported, was definitely hellish, but he saw someone walking by and just knew if he got the man's attention he could get out of there. Only the thought was enough, the man looked at him, and the next he knew he was alive again. While there, he saw some friends who had died before. All were sitting uncomfortably around firepits in a suffocating environment.
One can't put too much stock in visions and so forth, but this is not inconsistent with the conclusions the early church made from Scripture, given that that martyr awaiting her death didn't hesitate to pray for her dead brother she believed to be in hell.
Actually it does. It says that judgement proceeds on the basis of what was done (and believed) while in the flesh. Once you die you are no longer in the flesh.
"I'm not so sure that some
form of reincarnation isn't Biblical.
The little jury in my head is still
out on that one"
it´s appointed once for a man to die and then the judgment. Don´t fall into gnosticism. The golden rule with Scripture is, If it ain´t there, don´t add it ... & never take away from it!
I'm against purgatory for the reasons I outlined - the after-death scriptures leave no room for it so far as I can see. I'm not planning to launch a tirade about how the idea got abused via indulgences.
But I don't go with the idea that the gates of hell (meaning gehenna, the lake of fire) are locked on the inside, not the outside. It is true that plenty of people choose to GO to hell - those who hear the gospel and refuse it. But, once there, they would not choose to STAY there. What about the weeping and gnashing of teeth and the eternal torment about which the New Testament is utterly unambiguous? The fact that once there you are trapped there is the point of Jesus' parable about Lazarus and the rich man.
Also, nobody is there yet. The day of judgement is the same day for everybody. The dead are in hades not gehenna, and hades is a place of waiting.
Not even CS Lewis got everything right.
By the grace of God, each and every one of us was born with a free will.
Those souls in Hell are there due to choices made while living on earth (after rejecting opportunity after opportunity to reconcile with God)...and are therefore in Hell (by choice) permanently for all eternity with no chance of ever getting out.
Souls in Purgatory are there to be purged or purified....as 'nothing defiled shall enter Heaven.'
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