Thursday, April 01, 2010
Germany has announced it has pulled out of the Western European Union (WEU) because NATO and the EU have "done its job." The Western European Union itself announced it was going to dissolve -- effective in June, if possible. France and the United Kingdom (Great Britain) have also confirmed the imminent dissolution of that 10 nation military federation.
My questions would be, is the 10 nation Brussels Power Treaty being disolved? Or are the ten going to hand their power over to one individual? If the latter is the case we should expect the WEU to disolve, if indeed this is the prophetic ten. The prophetic ten are only given authority to rule with the one for a hour, afterward they are out of the picture. Is it coincidence that this is happening a few months before the ENP comes up for review? Should we also not expect three of the ten to drop out or be removed as this happens? Greece is now a non factor due to financials, Germany has now withdrawn, what's next?
My questions were meant rhetorically, more as a gauge for where my thoughts are currently.
For years, the ever-increasing load of the Internet discussed. Video Watch and upload and download heavy files has made the bandwidth is no longer enough. And consequences has already begun visible. According to the United Nations has, among other banks and companies have encountered problems when cash transactions are not reviewed in time.
But we is evolve a significantly worse scenario than so.
- We fear that a collapse of the entire Internet usage
continues to grow at the pace it does today. It would have devastating consequences not only for the world economy, but also for vital public services such as hospitals and police forces, "said Nette Weier, head of the new UN body, in a statement.
The idea is that the nations of the world to receive a share in a number of internet quotas. UN body United Nations Web Watch Organisational, UNWWO, will responsible for allocating Internet quotas, well monitor removing borders not exceeded.
How many quotas each country will be based on population and number of registered IP addresses in the country. How quotas are then distributed within the nation is up to countries themselves to decide.
If a country exceeds the assigned limits, it seems to be talk of UN sanctions as well as reduced bandwidth..
I can't copy the story here as it is a Google translation from Swedish and the copy paste comes out in such. I have typed out some of it, but readers will need to follow the link to get the entire story.
130 Donors Contribute ‘Towards a New Future for Haiti’
Secretary-General Urges ‘Sweeping’ Nation-building Exercise
As Prime Minister Presents Blueprint to Guide National Reconstruction, Recovery
The International Donors’ Conference “Towards a New Future for Haiti” raised almost $9.9 billion today in immediate and long-term assistance for the earthquake-devastated nation’s reconstruction, with United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon urging “full and generous support” for the Haitian Government’s plan of action for recovery and development.
Of the $9.9 billion pledged by 59 donors, $5.26 billion was for the financing of specific projects of the national action plan, a figure exceeding the estimated $4 billion needed over the next 18 months. The funds would be managed by a multi-donor reconstruction fund for Haiti and an interim commission over which Bill Clinton, United Nations Special Envoy for Haiti, would preside alongside Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive.
Attending the Conference were almost 140 countries, some represented at the ministerial level, as well as international institutions including the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The event was organized by the United Nations and the United States, in cooperation with the Government of Haiti, and with the support of Brazil, Canada, the European Union, France, and Spain.
Opening the Conference, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon recalled that President René Préval of Haiti had rightly spoken of the earthquake-devastated nation’s critical “rendezvous with history”. It was “the moment we come together in a global compact to build a new Haiti… a Haiti transformed”, he added.
For weeks, experts had been assessing the needs and costs of the 12 January disaster, the Secretary-General said. Haiti’s President, Prime Minister and Government had worked out the blueprint for a national strategic plan to guide recovery and reconstruction. The “concrete, specific and ambitious” action plan deserved the international community’s full and generous support. “Our goal is not to rebuild. It is to build back better,” he said. “A Haiti where the majority of people no longer live in deep poverty, where they can go to school and enjoy better health, where they have better options than going without jobs or leaving the country altogether.”
Under the plan, a new Interim Haiti Recovery Commission would channel $3.9 billion into specific programmes and projects over the next 18 months, Secretary-General Ban said, adding that reconstruction needs over the next 10 years would be an estimated $11.5 billion. “Clearly, this assistance must be well invested and well coordinated,” he emphasized, noting that, in addition to reconstruction, it must provide continuing emergency food, sanitation, health care and shelter.
He pointed out that, with the rainy season fast approaching, some camps for displaced persons were at risk of flooding. The security situation in some of the camps was also worrying, he warned, adding that health and sanitation issues were growing more serious. “I therefore appeal for further support for the Revised Humanitarian Appeal for $1.4 billion, currently only 50 per cent funded,” he said. “As we move from emergency aid to long-term reconstruction, let us recognize that we cannot accept business as usual. What we envision today, is wholesale national renewal… a sweeping exercise in nation-building on a scale and scope not seen in generations.”
The Haitian leadership, in partnership with the United Nations, was committed to a new social contract with its people, he said. That meant fully democratic Government, economic and social policies that addressed extreme poverty; deep-rooted disparities of wealth; human rights for all, guaranteed by an independent judiciary; and a vigilant civil society. The partnership rested on the principles of good governance, transparency and mutual accountability between Government and people, private and public sectors, and Haiti and the international community. The social contract also required addressing old problems through fresh approaches, such as investments that created jobs, modelled on the United Nations cash-for-work programmes, and incentives to encourage people to relocate from the capital, Port-au-Prince, to cities and villages elsewhere.
Conference co-host Hillary Rodham Clinton, Secretary of State of the United States, recapped the assistance given so far, saying the Haitian Government had received support from 140 nations in the form of food, temporary shelter and medical care for thousands. However, emergency relief was only the beginning of a long road to recovery, she cautioned, pointing out that of Haiti’s 9 million people, more than a quarter of a million had died in the earthquake and more than a million others had been left homeless. Hundreds of thousands now lived in temporary camps without sufficient food or access to sanitation.
Pre-earthquake Haiti had been on the path to progress, with the Government beginning to enact critical reforms, she said, noting that the economy had grown by 3 per cent. Two international chains had launched hotels, a sign of rising tourism, and new factories were opening while others had been contracted to begin production. Now the country needed broad-based, sustainable economic growth to create opportunities beyond Port-au-Prince so that people would not have to move to the capital or leave the country in search of work. Haiti needed strong education and health systems, as well as a Government with strong, accountable institutions. If the aid effort was slow, insufficient, and marked by conflict, lack of coordination and transparency, the challenges facing Haiti could erupt, with regional and global consequences, she warned.
Before the earthquake, migration had drained Haiti of talented citizens, many of whom had chosen to live in the United States, and more would leave unless new opportunities emerged, she said. Quality health care had been a challenge that was now even more urgent, given Haiti’s high rates of tuberculosis; HIV; infant, child and maternal mortality; and child malnutrition. The country faced possible outbreaks of lethal illnesses due to lack of sanitation, especially where drug-resistant strains of disease could cross borders.
Recalling that a food riot had toppled the Government in 2008, she said food had become scarce after years of deforestation had stripped Haiti’s rich topsoil, preventing farming. Drug trafficking was a half-billion-dollar-a-year industry thriving on social and political instability. Trafficking in human beings was similarly rampant. “We are called to do better than in the past,” she said, stressing that leaders must make the decision to guide a strong, accountable and transparent recovery.
Commending the Government’s proposed new mechanism for providing the necessary coordination and consultation needed to direct aid where it was most needed, she warned the international community against the temptation to work around the Government rather than with it as partners, and to scatter their efforts across an array of projects rather than focusing on deeper, long-term investments. There could be no “retreat to failed strategies”, she said, emphasizing that the Conference was not an opportunity simply to pledge money, but a chance to round up support in a smarter and more effective way. “With one voice, we will pass this test,” she added.
Announcing that her country would pledge $1.15 billion towards strengthening the agricultural, energy, health, security and governance sectors, she promised that the United States would work with a wide range of stakeholders, including Haitian Americans, and stressed the importance of empowering Haitian women, “the best investment we can make in any country”. It was also important to put to work the lessons learned from the response to the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, in which the United Nations had been an instrumental leader.
President Préval recalled that, during the sixty-third and sixty-fourth General Assembly sessions, he had spoken of the suffering in Haiti caused by a series of natural disasters that led to 3,000 deaths, hundreds of injured and material damage estimated at 15 per cent of gross domestic product. Two years later, the earthquake had left an unprecedented 300,000 dead, thousands injured and material damage estimated at 120 per cent of gross domestic product. He expressed deep gratitude to neighbouring countries and those far away for their humanitarian aid, emergency responders, tons of equipment, materials, medicines and food.
He went on to say that Haitians, who had paid in blood during the fight to defend their human dignity, were moved by the solidarity and compassion shown by the world. “If this momentum of solidarity and fraternity did not evaporate, but rather broadened and deepened, it is because the dream of each nation belonging to a global partnership could come about in the future,” he said. “But there is also a need for us to take stock and learn the lessons of this terrible disaster. This has shown us that generosity must be more disciplined.” There was a need to create an emergency task force under the aegis of the United Nations. “International aid must be coordinated upstream if it is to be effective,” he said, adding that the proposal to create “red helmets” at the United Nations was a worthy one.
The President paid tribute to Haitian solidarity, bravery, spirit of sacrifice, and drive to transcend divisions in order to move towards a future of fortune and solidarity, recalling that before the earthquake, the country had already been the poorest in the Western Hemisphere. It needed investment in infrastructure such as roads, electricity, transport and telecommunication. Education was essential to achieving the dream of a new Haiti, but 50 years ago most international institutions had not been prepared to invest in education for developing States. Instead, their focus had been on infrastructure, believed to contribute more directly to national capacities.
Noting that education had been considered a right rather than a productive investment for the economy, he said the facts had later proved that no development was possible without it. Before the earthquake, 30 per cent of Haiti’s population above age 25 years had been illiterate, 25 per cent of children had not been in school and those in school had not enjoyed appropriate conditions. Jobs had been taken up by expatriates because young graduates of Haitian training centres had lacked the appropriate skills, he said, adding that the earthquake had clearly demonstrated the social fracture that society could no longer tolerate and must repair as rapidly as possible.
“Let us not forget that education is the radical prerequisite, the only one that gives meaning to all the rest,” he said, calling on all Haitians, both in the country and abroad, to pool their resources to transform it into a nation of knowledge that promoted its historical culture, linguistic diversity and heritage. They were the basis of the fundamental values of the national economy, in which every Haitian could enjoy a daily meal and the aid of qualified individuals. “I therefore cherish a hope that the dream for this new Haiti finds its foundation for achievement in the commitment of pledges that will arise today from this Conference,” he said in conclusion.
Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive presented the Haitian Government’s action plan, saying that, beginning with the 25 January Montreal Conference, the country and its partners had begun laying the foundation for technical cooperation, setting forth principles built upon the Paris Declaration. That conference had been followed by a meeting in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, to further coordinate efforts. Likewise, today’s conference was “a historic opportunity”.
I have yet to watch it, but I will tell all that I have always viewed attacks on Constantine with suspicion (up until Constantine it was perfectly to crucify Christians) and the Nicene Creed which is one of the strongest AFFIRMATIONS of the FUNDAMENTALS of our FAITH!
The New Agers have always hated both CONSTANTINE and the NICENE CREED.
He said the action plan had been formed through broad-based consultations with the private sector, non-governmental organizations, the Haitian diaspora and the international community. More than 100 non-governmental organizations had made contributions, and were seen as vital partners. At the moment, constructive dialogues were taking place between the executive and legislative branches of Government on ending the emergency phase and launching the reconstruction process, in strict compliance with the Constitution.
It was difficult to choose among the different options, he admitted, explaining that the plan could only echo certain recommendations and suggestions. However, the Government realized the need to listen better at every stage, and to seek shared solutions. At the outset, pragmatism had guided the Government’s choices. The action plan dealt with the earthquake’s consequences and focused on ending the emergency response and moving towards reconstruction. During the first six months, the focus would be on providing those affected with urgent humanitarian aid. That required closing the resource gap and eliminating budgetary shortfalls. It also required opening health facilities and schools, and improving prevention and disaster management to prepare the country for the next hurricane cycle, he said.
That period would be followed by an 18-month phase focused on construction and rebuilding programmes, involving four organizations that helped to estimate the economic, social and cultural sectors costs, he said. It would entail the rebuilding of transport and communication infrastructure in devastated areas and job creation in the agricultural processing and textile industries. The private sector had a role in that process, he said, calling on institutions to provide easier access to credit and favourable rules.
In terms of social development, he said the plan would focus on creating basic housing for all, investing in youth, providing good health care, including in shantytowns, developing agriculture infrastructure, and vocational training, among other things. The revitalization of political parties, State institutions and the Haitian National Police was vital to the smooth operation of the State based on the rule of law, he said. The Government was resolved to do what was necessary to achieve that for the Haitian people. “We owe it to them to create conditions for hope for the future,” he said, stressing his desire for Haiti to emerge between now and 2030 as a fair, unpretentious, strong, competitive, decentralized modern society, based on solidarity, the rule of law, freedom of expression and association, and strong regional development.
He said the figure of $34 billion in public and private assistance over 10 years had been discussed in Santo Domingo, but the percentage stated today focused only on the next 18 months. About $4 billion was needed in that period to make the difference that everyone had been talking about. Haiti needed to rise up, he said, adding that, based on the today’s attendance, the political will to act in support of Haiti was apparent.
Following the Prime Minister’s presentation, representatives of international institutions and the Caribbean Community (CARICOM) presented their responses.
Helen Clark, Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and Chair of the United Nations Development Group (UNDG), said the $3.86 billion needed for reconstruction over the next 18 months must be quickly provided, in addition to emergency response pledges. UNDP would support institutional strengthening and good governance, with the full engagement of civil society and the Haitian diaspora, she said. The focus should be on short-term job creation, assistance to small- and medium-sized businesses, creating an enabling environment for investors to support long-term growth, and spreading development across the country for the benefit of all Haitians. Information would be placed online to enable public tracking of aid and resulting activities. UNDP was partnering with the World Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank to support the creation of a Haiti Reconstruction Fund.
Robert Zoellick, President of the World Bank, echoed Ms. Clark, saying that the international community had an opportunity to forego flag-waving, feel-good projects and to institute programmes according to Haiti’s stated needs. Learning from the experience of Aceh, it was time to create anti-corruption tools, conduct regular audits, institute better pay for public servants, publicize detected cases of corruption, and ask officials to make ethics pledges.
Luis Alberto Moreno, President of the Inter-American Development Bank, said the institution’s $700 million portfolio for Haiti, $300 million of which was mostly earmarked for infrastructure, had yet to be disbursed. However, it would be better to use the funds for emergency needs, such as housing loans, to provide semi-permanent shelters and a strategy to give the public sector the capacity to monitor and improve the quality of public education and fund new school construction.
Also speaking in response to the Prime Minister’s presentation were Compton Bourne, of the Caribbean Development Bank, and Percival James Paterson, Special Representative of the CARICOM Heads of Government.
Bill Clinton, United Nations Special Envoy for Haiti, then outlined the outcome of outreach consultations on Haiti, noting that many others besides country representatives were involved in the process. The Special Envoy’s role was to bring donors together and ensure that they met their commitments, of which only about one third were being met. That role also entailed ensuring the maximum involvement of the Haitian diaspora, the international non-governmental community, global investors and elements of Haitian society that were working to implement their own plans, such as the Government, the private sector and civil society.
He noted that the few months preceding and following the earthquake had been the first time that all of Haiti’s neighbours had shown commitment to its success. Referring to the United States, Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean countries, Venezuela and Cuba, he quipped: “The only thing we agree on is Haiti”. However, until Haitians could begin to lead more normal lives, it would be difficult to implement the Government’s long-term plans, he cautioned. With the rainy season approaching, the country must move 20,000 to 40,000 people to ensure they were not at risk of drowning. It was also crucial to build shelter, at the lowest cost possible, where people could retreat during a hurricane. Additionally, sanitation for those in concentrated living conditions was inadequate, leading to diarrhoea, dysentery and cholera, which were particularly dangerous for children under five.
He thanked the President and Prime Minister of Haiti for having invited him to co-chair the interim commission whose main goal was to provide a forum where legitimate stakeholders could be heard as they came together to implement the national action plan. It had taken the Indonesian Government one year to establish a recovery agency following the 2004 tsunami that had hit Aceh, he recalled, saying he would try to connect both internal and external forces in such a way as to maximize the input and impact of all players in Haiti. A system for tracking pledges and disbursements would be accessible via the Internet to improve transparency, he added.
The Co-Chairs of the outreach consultations -- Brazil, Canada, the European Union, France and Spain -– also addressed the gathering.
Celso Luiz Nunes Amorim, Minister for External Relations of Brazil, underlined the importance of standing in solidarity with Haiti, as the Brazilian Government and people had done from the start. Brazil had already disbursed $167 million in short-term humanitarian assistance and conducted more than 130 humanitarian flights carrying 1,000 tonnes of aid and a military hospital. He announced an additional pledge of $172 million for long-term recovery, health and infrastructure needs, and direct budgetary support. He also proposed that World Trade Organization members offer duty- and quota-free access to their markets for Haitian goods over a period long enough to allow for sustained growth.
Lawrence Cannon, Minister for Foreign Affairs of Canada, said it was important for the Government to renew a sense of shared responsibility and mutual trust with its people, in order to be able to deal with challenges in an inclusive manner. Those challenges included climate change, natural disasters and potential emergency situations. So far, the contributions of regional organizations like the Organization of American States (OAS) and the Caribbean Community had been critical and would continue to be so. Canada had obtained the agreement of Group of Seven finance ministers to work towards debt forgiveness, he said, adding that a conference in Montreal involving donors and other stakeholders had agreed on the need to guide international efforts and to rehabilitate Haiti’s infrastructure and core institutions.
Catherine Ashton, High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, stressed the need for a new social contract for the vulnerable, such as the children in camps, which could provide the “everyday miracle of a normal life”. The European Union was pledging €1.235 billion ($1.6 billion) towards the action plan, on top of €295 million in humanitarian aid already donated, and €650 million that citizens of Europe had given out of their own pockets. In total, member States and citizens of the European Union had contributed close to €3 billion, while its police and military remained actively engaged, she said.
Bernard Kouchner, Minister for Foreign and European Affairs of France, underscored the importance of rebuilding while continuing to provide emergency aid to save hundreds of thousand of refugees living in tents in the rain. “This extraordinary disaster must lead to a new way of solidarity and a re-forged Haitian State working towards political and social reconciliation and rebuilding,” he said. “We must prove here today that collective action is possible; that aid can work.” France would meet that challenge, he said, adding that his country would donate €180 million in assistance in 2010 and 2011, immediately cancel €56 million of bilateral debt and contribute directly to multilateral assistance. France would also allocate €20 million in annual budgetary aid, of which €5 million would be disbursed by month’s end to buy seeds for the next harvest and to support security and administrative structures. French civil society and business were also doing their part by contributing close to €19 million, he said.
Maria Teresa Fernandez de la Vega, First Deputy Prime Minister of Spain, said her country was the third-largest global donor and leading European Union contributor to Haiti’s reconstruction, an endeavour, however, in which Haitians themselves must be the protagonists. The international community could not guarantee that a major earthquake would not strike again, but it must ensure that the consequences would not be as devastating. Spain would donate €346 million to the donor fund for Haiti’s reconstruction, including $121.5 million this year, $75 million in 2011 and $74.5 million in 2013 for projects in water and sanitation, education, basic living standards, sustainability, agriculture and production, among other areas, she said.
Michèle Montas, representing the Voices of the Voiceless Forum, said respect was what farmers’ associations and people in camps for the displaced required. In March, the Forum held a series of focus and discussion groups with farmers, fishermen, small traders, traditional healers and unemployed students, among others, she said, adding that their message was a clear one: there was a need to end exclusion. Haiti’s reconstruction package should benefit all Haitians, regardless of status or location.
Public services must be decentralized and local management scaled up, she said. For coherent development, there must be better opportunities outside what was commonly referred to as “the Republic of Port-au-Prince”, as well as investment in people, housing, new earthquake-resistant dwellings, primary health care facilities and hospitals, local public services, as well as communication and food production infrastructure.
More than any other sector, agriculture was essential to Haiti’s wealth and a key source of employment, she said, noting that Forum participants had made concrete demands for training, seeds and equipment. Haitians could and should become self sufficient in food. Worried that reconstruction may not adequately target and reach the intended beneficiaries, they had said that responsible aid must reinforce Haitian sovereignty and draw on local resources and competencies. Above all, they wished to be consulted regularly in the future regarding their lives and well-being.
Moise Charles Pierre, Chair of the National Federation of Mayors, spoke on behalf of local government, saying that elected representatives had done their best in the earthquake’s immediate aftermath to meet people’s food, water and shelter needs. However, in order to keep children in school, they needed the resources to make good on pledges to public and private schools. He called on local authorities abroad to help their counterparts set up a decentralized collaboration platform, with a robust legal framework to carry out local government work.
Gerald Tremblay, Mayor of Montreal and Vice-Chairman of United Cities and Local Governments, said Montreal had been twinned with Port-au-Prince since 1995. At the Montreal meeting in January, participants had agreed that partnership between Haitians and the rest of the world was important for Haiti’s renaissance, which would begin with the rebuilding of its towns. Local authorities worldwide would coordinate their activities to help Haiti.
Sounds like the AOC agenda is well underway!
Antonio Simoes, Brazil’s Undersecretary-General for South America, Central America and the Caribbean, said a report on the 23 March outreach meeting, co-chaired by Brazil and Haiti, on the response of the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH) was available to delegations. Participants had said that the international community should envisage an active role for the Mission, especially since its mandate offered enough latitude to contribute across many sectors, including security, humanitarian aid, political dialogue and reconstruction. Reconstruction was important for MINUSTAH’s own security activities and its contribution to the justice sector, he said, adding that donors should do their part to ensure the Mission’s financial robustness.
A representative of the Haitian diaspora agreed that the country must be built differently in the future. It needed better greater capacity, particularly to meet medical needs, which had nearly tripled since the earthquake. The Haitian diaspora was ready to come in and help increase Haiti’s efficiency while reducing dependence on outside aid.
A representative of business said Haiti’s private sector was defined by a few large companies that all too often excluded women’s entrepreneurship. Ninety per cent of the country’s businesses were informal, and that must change, he stressed, proposing an allocation of at least half of the international assistance to turning small and medium-sized businesses into formal enterprises. A portion of grants given to the private sector should be in the form of equity for the sector’s employees. Moreover, small business should be promoted in housing and construction, he said, adding that new entrepreneurs, including recent college graduates, should be given seed capital to launch businesses. The development of the middle class could only happen through the creation of tens of thousands of such enterprises and economic diversity.
A representative of civil society said Haiti’s non-governmental organization infrastructure was the largest in the world, and non-governmental organizations were in the process of mapping how resources were spent.
Echoing that point, Mr. Clinton said Haiti had the world’s largest number of non-governmental organizations per capita, with the possible exception of India, but they operated in a highly fractured way. It was significant that they had promised to work together, in accordance with the Haitian Government’s action plan.
I agree that Haiti desperately needs help. I just shudder to think that the help will be funneled through the United Nations Development Program. Sure they will get top of the line infrastructure, but at what cost to the people?
Haitian workers clearing rubble in Port-au-Prince
29 March 2010 – The “smart” rebuilding of Haiti after January’s earthquake will require some $11.5 billion of spending over the next 10 years, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said today ahead of Wednesday’s international donor meeting on the way ahead for the Caribbean country.
“That is our challenge in New York – not to rebuild but to ‘build back better,’ to create a new Haiti,” the Secretary-General said in an op-ed in The Washington Post.
More than 100 countries will take part in the International Donors Conference Towards a New Future for Haiti to be held at the UN Headquarters in New York. The meeting will be led by Haitian President René Préval, with the Secretary-General and Hillary Clinton, United States Secretary of State, as co-hosts, and UN Special Envoy for Haiti, former President Bill Clinton.More than 100 countries will take part in the International Donors Conference Towards a New Future for Haiti to be held at the UN Headquarters in New York.
more at link
As I suspected, the plans are not just to rebuild, but to turn Haiti into a "Smart Nation"
I would be interested in getting your feedback on the video trailer to this new documentary "Invisible Empire" from filmaker Jason Bermas, exposing the move toward a totalitarian world government.
I know that many of you are not fans of Alex Jones...so what would his 'agenda' be in exposing the NWO?
URL to article: http://www.infowars.com/infoshop-
THIS IS A CHRISTIAN VIDEO. PLEASE WATCH!
Council of Nicea myth debunked
THIS IS A CHRISTIAN VIDEO.
MAY THE PEACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST BE WITH YOU ALL.
The video also exposes the gnostic 'gospels', i.e., the so called Gospel of Thomas, etc., for the heretical pretences they are, whilst at the same time validating and rightly supporting the true Biblical Canon, and showing that the Holy Bible as we know it was firmly compiled by the Church Fathers well before the Council of Nicea (which Constantine commissioned Eusebius to call the scattered and long persecuted Churches to, many rightly weary as Rome had been, and was to again become, a ((if not the)) foremost persecutor of Bible believing Christians.)
The Council of Nicea dealt with the heresies of Arianism. The Holy Bible as we know it was compiled and agreed upon long before the Council of Nicea.(the so-called and dubitable Apocrypha being added much later at the Council of Trent, as a way to try and oppose the Reformation.)
When the Council of Nicea was formed, no Pope existed, No one over-seeing earthly Mother Church existed. Anyone that tells you otherwise, is lying to you or ignorant. The Council of Nicea was a gathering together of scattered churches, often in communication with one another, but without one individual overseeing all of them as a super-bishop or pope.
Protestantism did not begin at the Reformation. It is a return back to the teachings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, and therefore to the Original Church itself.
Both Hebrews 9 and 10, refute the heresies of the Roman Catholic Doctrine of transubstantiation.
Please, please, read your Bibles before the NWO merchants confiscate them. Right them on your hearts, remember them.
The New Agers have always hated both CONSTANTINE and the NICENE CREED.
I have been hearing about Constantine's antisemitism. That he made laws against worshiping on the Sabbath, and syncretizing pagan religions with Christianity. For example, Passover being changed to Easter. (I have heard Easter being attributed to worship of either the goddesses Ishtar or Oester.)
If anyone can give me more insight on this topic I would appreciate it.
OF COURSE THE COUNCIL OF NICEA TOOK PLACE!
BOTH I AND THE VIDEO SHOW THAT!
I am clarifying, as is the video, what the Council of Nicea was really about and who formed it. Please see the video and my comments.
Peace be with you all in Jesus Christ's Name.
OF COURSE THE COUNCIL OF NICEA TOOK PLACE!
BOTH I AND THE VIDEO SHOW THAT!
I am clarifying, as is the video, what the Council of Nicea was really about and who formed it. Please see the video and my comments.
Peace be with you all in Jesus Christ's Name.
This is how we can tell if anyone who claims to know a Jesus that doesn't fit the above description is false.
This core faith is supported by scripture. Historical accuracy is not as important as the accuracy given to us by faith.
However, it seems to me that the Nicene creed is a basic statement of Christian belief. Most churches I know of ascribe to it, because it is the "fundamentals" of the faith.
When any popular preacher goes against a tenet of the creed, you may be sure he is probably an apostate or a New Ager. For instance, the intense attacks on the Resurrection of Jesus which were mounted by some in the Jesus Seminar, and attacks on the Trinity,
especially the Divine Sonhood of Jesus.
One of the tragedies of the modern church is that, while the Creed is still pronounced in Church every Sunday (in the Episcopal church, for instance), individuals deny parts of it. This includes clergy
and influential lay people. Because of this, I have used the Nicene Creed as a sort of standard statement of Christian belief that all Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants could believe in (there may be some problem with the Orthodox in the Trinity statement, over which they have long held a controversy with Rome).
I am so surprised at myself, long a liberal person, that I hold to the Nicene Creed as the basics. It's just that I saw, and lived, the New Age and what that leads to, and saw, and lived, which happens to regular mainstream churches when they dismantle the creed, even parts of it.
My family would be ashamed of me if they knew I was defending the Nicene Creed. Wonder what the Lord thinks of this controversy? Wish He'd tell us.
I got an email from Pizza Hut saying that I could earn rewards (coupons, discounts on on-line orders) by answering on-line surveys and sharing my opinions. I've already done this with Quick Trip and love it. I fill out a monthly survey about their products and get a coupon for a free item. I don't recall their enrollment form being very lengthy. The kind of information eRewards was asking for, though, was getting to be too much for me, so I quit. They ask for the typical stuff like how many in a household, household income, etc. But then it wanted my kids' birth months, years, gender. I skipped over that. Then it was asking about workplace and position and asking really detailed questions. When it wouldn't let me skip some of those questions, I said, "Forget it!"
Anyone else concerned about the amount of and type of information that is being gathered from these types of market research companies? They say the info will be kept confidential, but who knows...and who knows what they will do with it. That company may be harmless, but it makes me wonder.
It sure is easy to be lured in with free stuff!
The video presented on the Council of Nicea are made by Chris White. While I have some reservations about some of the people White links to on his site, this video and similar videos he has made exposing Zeitgeist, New Age, Theosophy, 2012 and so forth are solid tools for reaching people who will not take the time to read.
Many here have often seen me write about my brother who has been lost in these deceptions, thanks to videos like these and the ones Keith Thompson has produced he is finally begining to see what I have been trying to tell him for the last couple of years. Lots of solid information and hard research has went into these pieces. As I said before, I have my reservations about some things, but this video and the others to which I was refering are valuable tools.
David, it is not regardless as to how the Creed came into being at all!
'...it represents the core Christian faith principals. It affirms the belief in the Holy Trinity--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It correctly identifies Jesus as the Son of God and affirms the Immaculate conception, His birth, His suffering and death on the cross, His resurrection, and his ascension into heaven.'
All these things were already agreed upon by all the Churches except those who were ALREADY deemed heretics! The Council of Nicea primarily dealt with countering the heresies of Arianism.
Peace be with you.
Please refer back to my earlier comments. They are intended, and do, STAND AGAINST NAM teaching and also stand against the falsehoods of the ancient mystery religions with which Roman Catholicism is mixed (her cup of fornication and mixture), YET TRUE CHRISTIANITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAGANISM! THERE WAS NO POPE AT THE COUNCIL OF NICEA, AND NO ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WITH ITS BLASPHEMIES AND HERESIES DESPITE WHAT SOME MAY HAVE YOU BELIEVE.
Please read the writings of the Ante-Nicene Fathers.
Peace be with you all in the Name of our Beloved Lord Jesus Christ.
Peace be with you.
There was just a program regarding the Shroud of Torin. They were able to create a 3-D image of the figure embedded in the Shroud. Before this program they aired one trying to prove the existence of the Garden of Eden.
I did not personally witness the events surrounding Jesus' birth. But I believe it to be a significant turning point in the world. I did not personally witness any of His miracles. But I believe they happened. I did not personally hear His Sermon on the Mount. But I believe His words were powerful. I did not personally witness Jesus' resurrected. Unlike Thomas I believe even though I haven't seen.
In my opinion Christians should let the faithless people of the world pursue historical and scientific accuracy. Let us Christians pursue the Truth laid out in scripture and by the testimony of fellow believers.
I have seen many of these programs on History channel, National Geographic, Science, etc.
Many of which mix biblical accounts with Gnostic principles or othe New Age thoughts on the events. Most of the time they are subtle, but are there none the less. They also have a tendency to run these in blocks, with the more benign surrounding one program that is completely gnostic or of the typical Dan Brown lean.
You have taken what was intended as support for a video exposing the lies that are often perpetrated around the Council, such as the lies about exclusion of materials in the canon and turned it into a rail against the catholics here. Why?
You were quick to jump when you inferred that my threads were New Age, now you know they are not, you are suddenly 'peeved'. Just whose side are you on? If you passively stand by whilst others band about lies and ignorances knowing the contrary, or stuff up your ears and cover your eyes when such lies are being exposed because you do not want to hear the truth you make yourself as guilty as the peddlar of lies.
The Holy Bible as we know it was decided upon before the Council of Nicea, and the Roman Catholic Church did not even exist with its Pope, false doctrines and interminglings of paganism at the time the Council of Nicea took place, that is the truth! Anyone who continues to state otherwise is lying to you and is NOT a lover of the Truth!
Peace be with you.
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
The Council of Nicea was not overseen by the RC Church with a Pope etc, as there was no single earthly authority!
My aim is not to attack Catholics as individuals, it is to expose the lies expounded by the Roman Catholic Establishment because we must defend the Truth of Christianity. Not be luke-warm & politically correct, when it come to speaking the truth!
I have answered your question. Peace be with everyone here including Catholics in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, whom I love deeply and want to see set free from the heavy burdens of men.
Peace be unto everyone here in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I love Catholics deeply and want to see Catholics set free from the heavy burdens of men.
Ephesians 4:14-16 (King James Version)
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.
This video is a refutation of claims made by men like Dan Brown that the Catholic Church edited the text of the canon at the council. White refutes this by showing that at this point in history there was not a hierarchy of the church and that the council was convened by Constantine. He never claims that the Catholic church is heretical, pagan, gnostic, etc. Your point is invalid as in the video itself White admits that the hierarchy of the church DID NOT EXIST at this point in time. He goes on to show how the canon had already been established by this point and shows how early christians such as Justin Martyr were quoting the four earliest gospels prior to the Council. You can argue that Constantine may have been what you claim, which you did not, but this is not a fair representation of the Catholic church as said church did not formally exist.
This sounds like the tone of this blog.
This is also ecumenism.
ORIGINAL POST AT 11:53 AM FRIDAY:
from Fulfilled Prophecy
If This is true.. their maybe a cover up in Question. The world will soon know either way.
Iranian satellite news is reporting that Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei is in critical care after his car exploded near the city of Ahvaz, in the southwest, not far from the Iraqi border….so far this is unconfirmed….there is speculation that the explosion was caused by a mine left by the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war….it may also have been an assassination attempt….it was reported that there were three other people in the car at the time of the explosion who have already died…..Khamenei is reportedly in critical care in Ahvaz and cannot be transported to Tehran….I repeat, these are unconfirmed reports….as of 11:53am eastern I’m not seeing anything on the wires….but I’m getting this from Iranian nationals who are tracking events from Farsi-based news services…..developing…..
I have been checking on other news sites.. BBC, CNN etc. Nothing reported is coming up.
This may be a fabricated story.
I have stated time and again, that I do not agree with many aspects of the catholic church. However, I will not sit back and let a friends faith of a friend personally be attacked by anyone. Especially from people who refuse to take the same hard line against the apostasy running rampant through the protestant churches. If someone wishes to clean up the mess in the churches, I suggest they begin in their own where they can do the most good. I have stated on multiple occasions that catholics and jews here know where all of us differ in beliefs. I have also seen the catholics here be more critical about true problems within their church than the protestants could ever be. I can not say the same for those who insist on alienating others with a holier than thou attitude. I am all for proper discussion about the falling away that has the church in its grasp, this goes for everyone. I am not for completely one sided rail roading.
Yes I comment a lot, no one else seems to mind except those who wish to continuously attack from the weeds. No one minds when I contribute a bulk of information about world events, only when I defend friends does my posting become a issue for anyone. I will not be run off or silenced by someone falling into the trap of divide and conquer. In case one had not noticed, the Catholics and Jews are in the crosshairs right now. If you let them tear these groups apart, yours WILL BE NEXT!
Thanks as usual for giving me a lot to think about. Your common sense zeal for Truth is most inspiring!
"Especially from people who refuse to take the same hard line against the apostasy running rampant through the protestant churches."
Have you not read everyone's posts?
Oh well, you cant hear them over the sound of how awesome you are.
Take a chill pill!
Once you have calmed down, try to contribute something USEFUL. It is possible to areas of sharp disagreement in a civil and respectful manner.
On the other hand, if you are a person who won't be satisfied unless Roman Catholicism (which follows the Nicene creed) is viewed as something similar to Wicca or the Jehovah's Witnesses, well -- you are barking up the wrong tree here.
Thank You for your kind words. I for one am fed up of these conspiracy theories connecting the Catholic Church to the Illuminati, the New World Order, the Whore of Babylon etc , and then on the other side using the same links with the Jews. A friend who was raised Presbyterian told me she was taught there were flying monkey's in the Vatican and people actually believed it. I do think these attacks come from the enemy.
The only posts I have read where apostasy within the protestant church is brought up, is when it is used as a side note to justify going back after the Catholics. I can go back through the last 2 plus years on this blog and document where if something negative is stated about the Catholic church, anonymous posters (I am not saying you, just in general) come out of the wood work to rail against Catholicism, in many cases stating things that are blatantly false.
On the other hand there have been equally as many discussions about apostasy in protestant churches that except for a handfull of posters, most of which are known, no one wants to discuss. To paint me as conceited or self centered is a huge miscalculation. Ask anyone here that truly knows me, they will tell you I am probably more critical of myself than I am anyone else. If I post a lot, it is because I care about the work being done here and do not want it side tracked by someone holding a grudge against one denomination or another. If I respond to others, it is because I have built a relationship with most of the people here outside of this blog and respect what they have to say, even if I disagree with them.
I don't take issues with someone discussing errors in any faith. I take issues with some one posting something and claiming it verifies their belief when in reality it says nothing of the sort. I take issues with people talking down their nose to others in preconceived judgement instead of simply talking TO them with a loving heart. You may not realize it, but I DO want others to be able to discuss these issues that divide us. However the conversation can not start with preconceived judgements, many of which I can guarantee are wrong.
"Christian" beliefs that involve trashing the religious beliefs of others are the kind of "Christian" beliefs that I would avoid like the plague even if I were unchurched!
Constance Cumbey was right in saying (and I am paraphrasing here) that Heaven's "surprises" may very well include the sight of honest pagans who did the best they could with what little knowledge thay had standing joyous and redeemed while certain so-called "Christians" who gave Christianity a bad name find themselves on the outside looking in.
If anyone thinks that converts can be won to Christianity by spiritually "kicking people in the shins," and insulting and threatening them, then that person had better think again...and then go and reread the Gospels.
Such people - whether Catholic or Protestant - render Christianity repulsive and incredible to people, and will have much to answer for when they finally meet their Maker.
One cannot help but think of millstones.
honest pagans? go to heaven? just like mislead muslums?
when the bible clearly states,
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
This is a confession of ALL PATHS LEAD TO GOD, from Constance's mouth to you ears people!
Constance, where do you get off telling people what heaven has in store for believers? Are you God?
Can you make such a claim, NEVER.
Now that it has been established that this blog is a PULPIT, remember, judgment begins at such.
GOD changes NOT!
Do not be DECIEVED by MAN nor WOMAN
we are not trying to convert you "regulars" on this blog, we know your conscience is seared with a hot iron, and you need a good chastisement for all of the LYING you do.
We are here to point out to others who stumble upon this blog so that they will not be deceived by you.
I was saved by a butt kicking by God, He took me to the woodshed, PRAISE BE TO GOD, ALL HIS JUDGMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUS!
I was humiliated out of a sinful life, what makes you think you don't deserve the same kind of butt kicking by God?
He will punish the unsaved in HELL, YEA THE IGNORANT TOO.
God spanks his children (rod of iron/rod of chastisement) only the bastards refuse it! He also gives his staff for us to rest.
Ye ride thine feather beds to hell then!
God will be reading each person's heart, as well as judging their souls.
Get a bible and follow it, it will save your eternal life.
Maybe you need one more trip 'to the woodshed' for one more 'butt kicking' for sitting in judgement of others!!!
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
God is unchangeable. God's word is unchangeable too. In Matthew 24:35, the Lord Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Follow your heart to hell then, I have warned you it is wicked and deceitful, your blood be not upon my hands.
Constance, did you know that you have a poster on your blog (Anonymous @ 7:58) who has the POWER to send someone to hell???
Both Satan AND the New World Order elite must be LAUGHING at how successful they have been able to 'divide and conquer' so many Christians, not only on this blog, but elsewhere in the world.
Those who pretend to know a lot about their own religion but little else feel very full of themselves when they can divert this blog to go off topic. It is the only blog primarily on the topic of the New Age movement on the web that allows comments.
What we who have been reading and contributing here for a long time do know is that Catholics and Jews have been the first targets of the New Age movement, the Jews because they fight back and the Catholics because they are an established organization.
The New Age movement has two sections, the "spiritual" or one world religion, and the political. Many watch how the two intersect to bring about their movement. That is really an important part of things because it can convinces a believer to buy into the political end of things.
I would hope that anyone writing on Christianity or Judaism show how their information ties together the spiritual and political thoughts together, bringing in the New Age talked about by the occultists. Many here have already done that, but we need every bit of information along those lines that we can get. We can argue whose beliefs are the most accurate, but it won't help us fight the political side of the movement.
Dorothy -- Always grateful for your presence which as usual cuts to the core like a finely-sharpened knife.
Did we not answer to that call?
Is it God's salvation pointing to His Son ----> Jesus?
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
We are born into sin No Question..
I thought it was God's responsibility to change us be Christ like..not us.
Two scripture I remind myself every day are:
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
This is real repentance, been obedient to the word of God when He is teaching you or not...
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Correction from one another is scriptual, as long as it done in LOVE... what does that really mean
Love covers a multitude of sins to show the error, restore and move on.
If we can't do this now they how can we do it in heaven we all need to learn it here first...
We think Jesus is coming back soon well I think not.. His bride is to fickled. We need to get back to the heart of God.. knowledge will not save you. Pls read what I'm saying here between the lines.
Of course I believe Jesus is coming back soon I was making a point only... God love is so big just look at the world at large does God not change one day of circumstances from the next... ie: JS, EMP, WEU. My family here... God is still in control of our lives and has not finished with us yet, we're all at different stages in our own personal walk with our Savior. Do I get a Amen!!
In saying this.. I hope not to see a hammer banging on my head...I love you all in Jesus.
I am sorry you are deaf, dumb and think that historical accuracy when defending the Church and therefore guarding the Canon and loving the Truth and holding to the Traditions we were first given does not seem important to you, despite us being BIBLICALLY CALLED TO DO SO!
You should not have been so worried about my post, and been so quick to jump, if you were not so concerned.
If some New Age liar were to post here in a cunning and deceptive way that Jesus Christ only came in 1982 and turned up in Kenya, I'm sure you'd be very concerned about historical accuracy. We are called to defend the love of the Truth, in the Name Jesus Christ.
Peace be with you.
tough time trying to get through to
Anonymous, but Anonymous isn't
going to give an inch, so it's up to
Anonymous to be mature,
( not like Anonymous ), and show
Anonymous the error of his or her
ways, and hope that Anonymous
can find it it his or her heart to
at least listen to Anonymous and
not simply dismiss every thing that
he or she says.
Personally I think Anonymous is being
stubborn and should listen to
Anonymous, who only has Anonymous's
best interests in mind.
Grow up Anonymous !
And to Anonymous; thank you for your
insight and mature, albeit anonymous,
Feel free to read an peruse the varied thoughts from Passion week.
HE IS RISEN! HE IS RISEN INDEED!
HOSANNA! WORTHY IS THE LAMB!
I do think our persecution has begun. As someone who's blessed to be in Orthodox circles, that have not been hit by the abuse crisis. I am appalled that the Liberals are know scapegoating the wrong people. If they want to prosecute someone they should go ahead and prosecute all the Priests and Bishops involved in this sordid mess.
There are other statements of faith beside the Nicene creed. Many of the hymns and even the more contemporary songs are statements of faith. If you want my approval to seek historical accuracy on things, you have my permission. Maybe, you could sell it to the History Channel and make some money. I don't need such things to deepen my faith, but if this is what you need in order to believe, far be it for me to stand in your way. I wouldn't want someone stumbling in their faith over it.
Posters coming here to take the attention off the New Age apostasy
and rivet it on Jews and Catholics,
obviously mostly Catholics in this present thread. It's true the Catholics have once again give us ample cause for complaint, but it's also true that Protestants have those sins as well, in abundance.
I remember that John Calvin thought he was justified in burning Michael
Servetus at the stake over his heresy. Servetus' heresy would seem mild by today's standards: he thought Jesus was not equal to God the Father--he was a Unitarian in the original sense of that word. Protestants have been as vicious as Catholics, this is my point. I thought history demonstrated that!
The history of the United Kingdoms is replete with Catholics burning Protestants and Protestants burning Catholics. I can sympathize with my son who said "a plague on both your houses".
The Devil would like us to give up our faith over the things which have been debated on this thread. The Devil is fighting very hard, as his time is short. Hang on, troops.
There are so many who run conspiracy information sites, supposedly telling others what is going on behind the scenes. Yet after almost 30 years of serious information presented by her and others on what is going on, somehow these sites have never picked up on that information. Go to this site and see how many planted sources are sending out supposed "real" information. http://www.theworldoftruth.net/9Experts/ENG/G_K/Hilder/Hilder.htm You can also use it to check out whether the latest tidbit of news whispered to you comes from a credible source. The list is composed of individuals whose information doesn't step on the toes of those who want to keep information about the New Age movement out of sight.
Yes, Sutton is on there, but he is dead and never talked about New Age.
I came across the above website again because someone sent a cockamaime story out about UFOs, Israel and where the new messiah was to come from. It was put out by Alexander Backman, a name I hadn't heard before. So I did a search, saw he was connected to Anthony Hilder, a vicious antisemite, followed the trail, and it led to the World Of Truth website.
There are also the people somewhere on the piece of thread between New Age people on one side and monotheists on the other. Here at http://loveforlife.com.au/content/08/10/31/video-forbidden-knowledge-secret-jack-otto-nwo-what-jew-who-jew-world-history-false or http://tinyurl.com/y9bwosu we see a vicious antisemite in front of a Ron Paul for President group. Then there is http://www.refuseresist.net/about/ which has a section on the New Age movement, but never mentions Constance's blog. Wonder why?
Then there is http://sureynot.com/v/235/new-age-infiltration-of-the-truth-movement.html by Keith Thompson 00 - a long film on New Age infiltration of the truth movement. It does have some important quotes from Bailey and Blavatsky, but I was unable to see where Thompson stood on the spectrum. His film was liked by another website that was antisemitic, but not viciously so. On his own website a commenter attacked Constance. He didn't defend her although she had said nice things about him.
That's the dog eat dog world of those who would expose what is going on. Because of her books she has a public reputation. Getting information out keeps her on the edge of those dirty waters such as the ones above. How many of you could take that for so many years without burning out or giving up? Add that to the many nose in the air scholars who write books and articles on the New Age movement. They pick one tiny little section of the movement, detail it to infinity and get scholarly credits, never getting to the larger picture.
I could write a book on the larger picture, but I'll leave that to her. Probably we are going to get more of the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" arguments here.
You ask how many could endure thirty years of discrediting and marginalizing. Well, I have done so,
in my private life, even though I am not well known like Constance. Ridicule from all of my family; then
loss of my only close Christian friend
outside the ether, that is, my husband. And of course MY book on the new Age was very close to publication but stopped by a cabal of New Agers. So probably lots of
people have gone on for thirty years enduring the marginalization which Jesus predicted we would endure. I am about finished with the capacity to stand it, and that is why I am a rapture freak.
I know "rapture" is not popular here, but some of us pray for this way of deliverance. There does not seem to be any other way at the moment, other than dogged endurance and then death. We will not win until the Messiah wins for us, and you would possibly agree with that, if I phrase this the "Messiah" and not Jesus. For you too expect the Messiah to come with healing in His wings.
The bottom line is, we will not win until the Messiah liberates us.
Faith is a gift, but it is a gift the enemy will try by any means possible to wrestle away.
Easter Bunny (that's so cute), trust me on this. If Constance retires some day from her law practice, her book on people and places that she has encountered would be a best seller in the Christian community. Because of name recognition many people have contacted her, passed on information, blocked her efforts, double-crossed her, etc. My work is in the research. As far as me personally, the response to me is "who cares." I couldn't sell ice cubes in the desert. There isn't a market in the Jewish community, and Christians want someone who can quote the bible quickly. I'm realistic.
Actually, we all know who the 'immature' and 'stubborn' posters are who need to 'grow up.'
They are the ones who absolutely refuse to accept the fact that the Catholics on this blog are devout and unshakeable in their faith and don't feel the need to explain or apologize to anyone for it.
However, there is a limit to how much we Catholics are willing to take from unprovoked, unjustified attacks.
It's just that it's difficult to tell the 'persecutors' from the 'persecutees' on this blog.
Yes, and with all the "anonymous" posters here it's impossible to keep score unless you're Abbot and Costello.
Paul @ 8:41am:
I believe Susanna was quoting from my 1983 book which in turn was quoting the Apostle Paul, Romans Chapter 2.
" 1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
…"common ground for the common good" covenants, declarations and manifestos are a tactic, a method to shut down critics and marginalize those who have opposition to their causes.
Exactly. Since these "covenants" are built around general peace and goodwill, opponents will be seen as being contentious, intolerant and against the "greater good."
Those who believe they have a biblical mandate to "contend for the faith," should never do so "contentiously." However, this "A Covenant for Civility" document implies that simply contending for the faith may be construed as an act of incivility, arrogance and hate.
The article exposes the false dichotomy of "right" vs. "left" and the real intention of promoting Dominionism:
Make no mistake about it! Both the Left and the Right want to build a Kingdom of God on Earth… …Beware of the dialectic dance that always accompanies these types of documents, pitting one group against another, creating superficial differences, while at the same time working together behind the scenes to build the kingdom.
I do not currently belong to any church (not that this is a good thing, but maybe not bad either considering the state of organized religion), I do not watch any religous programming, I do not have many in my circle who even discuss religion - so - I am not brainwashed.
I was born and raised Catholic - an altar boy, Catholic school, the whole nine yards - lived it breathed it. When I was a young adult I decided to read the bible in it's entirety - when I completed it, I was both thankful and sad - thankful that I discovered the truth from the Word - and very sad at all the false doctrine that was taught to me by the church while growing up. If you are Catholic, and have not read the bible for yourself, I suggest you do so - you will see what was added to and inferred to the Word that is just NOT there.
I do not judge any Catholics - I have known many who have led a much more respectable life than I have. I only know that - once I found the truth, it was my responsibility to turn away from such practices.
And, by the way - we are commanded to expose false doctrines and teachings - Paul even named names, even though he considered himself "chief sinner".
This is NOT meant to offend or judge.
Confrontation for the sake of argument is sinful - Confrontation for the sake of truth is a divine command.
To Anonymous 8:55;
_ But your faith isn't unshakable.
In fact it's your fear that stands out.
Identify yourself and be counted.
Thanks, but Who is on second.
What's on first.
Confrontation for the sake of argument is sinful - Confrontation for the sake of truth IS A DIVINE COMMAND.
Well said and I completely concur.
God bless you!
News Flash: It wasn't the Catholic Church who tampered with and altered the WORD of God . . . it was the various Protestant sects.
PROOF is that there are so many versions of the Bible out there, where there should be only ONE. In other words, the WORD OF GOD doesn't have 'versions.'
Do a Google search of a dozen of your favorite biblical quotes. In comparing the text, go to the top 3 versions of the Bible. You will see that the King James Version (KJV), New International Version (NIV), and English Standard Version (ESV) are not exactly the same. The words of some biblical quotes have actually been altered slightly to where the actual meaning has been changed or, at the very least, questioned.
WHY? The word of God is just that . . . THE WORD OF GOD. In other words, this is non-negotiable . . . not subject to change. MAN did this. MAN changed the word of God. And it wasn't the Catholics who made those changes!!!
Be careful, Paul. When you label my Catholic Faith as one of 'fear' and question whether it's 'unshakeable' - you are not only ignorantly attempting to know what is in someone's heart - but you are also 'stepping on the toes' of other brilliant Catholics on this blog: Susanna & Savia.
Your immaturity is only exceeded by your arrogance!!!
This is written into Constance's article, by Constance herself.
you start the insults early don't you hon.
And this part,
so did Catholics who have an apocalyptic season of scripture readings every November and December of liturgical years and for that matter, watchers of the then popular Movie trilogy series -- THE OMEN.
I was raised catholic, me mum almost became a nun, and left before she took her final vows.
I was the most well learned child in my CCD classes, I went to mass and confession weekly, and NEVER did I EVER hear of apocalyptic season of scripture readings every November and December of liturgical years.
I heard only the fakery of veronca lueken, the lies of garabondel, the hysterics of padre pio, the lunacy of medjugorje.
In other words, I was raised on fairy tales, and didn't get the meat of the word of God until I was a bible "thumper" as you so lovingly call it.
About catholice getting a ton of their "theology" from the fakery of movies, YES YES YES, you hit the nail on the hear dear...
That is why they are jealous of well learned protestants.
Your position I can actually understand, and appreciate the sensitivity with which you approached it. As you stated, you grew up catholic, but your issues are not soley with catholicism, as you stated that you do not belong to any church due to the apostasy that has run rampant in most of them. I attend a church with a congregation of less than 20 people, because of similar issues with the modern churches.
I have to drive 40 minutes to get there, when I could easily go to a church down the road from my house. One benefit is that with such a small congregation, issues are easily discussed among every one. It is also not uncommon for many of us to spend an additional 45 minutes discussing varying topics with the pastor after service has let out.
I am unsure if such a church exists where you are, or if something of this nature would work for you. I just wanted to share my experience with issues similar to yours, in hopes that you may find a place where you can come together in faith with others who share similar core beliefs.
please don't ever give up the ad hominem attacks.
If you did I could not recognize your "anonymous" posts, lol
I also do not think anonymous thinks they can send people to hell, I believe they are warning people here, albeit sternly because the time is short.
Paul, you are just too funny, albeit wrong, but funny, lol.
"Catholic" means general or universal
Roman Catholic is one denomination of
the universal Church.
This is the second time that an
anonymous poster (poser) has ripped
me and incorrectly called me a
I am not.
I'm an "Anonymous" basher.
Your faith isn't faith. Fear keeps
you from faith.
Faith and fear are opposites.
You are a divider, at least until
you grow a spine.
Careful, dear - the 'holes' in your argument are clearly showing!!!
The only way you could have grown up hearing about Veronica Leuken is if you had attended one particuar 'wayward' church in Bayside, New York.
All devout Catholics KNOW that believing in ANY apparition is strictly OPTIONAL and not required.
You must have missed something in my post - I never implied that the Catholic church were the "ones" who were responsible for changing the Word.
I can only speak from my experiences, and really do not want this to turn into something that I say hurting other people, and although I could go on all day, I just wanted you to know where I was coming from with just a FEW points -
If you can send me the info in the Word where it speaks of purgatory, please do so - where there is a place where we can further atone for our sins when we are gone.
And please google the definition for mediator, I think you will find one of the meanings or synonyms to be intercessor - and Jesus said He was the mediator between man and God - so although Mary may have been the greatest women who ever lived, along with some of the saints - they cannot interceed on your behalf for anything - ONLY Jesus can.
And I have looked at some of the early translations of the Word (yes, even before the Vulgate) and when Jesus referred to the rock upon which he would build his church - it was not Peter he was talking about - it was Himself. Check it out for yourself.
This post was not intended to spark insults, just wanted you to know where I was coming from. I could go on with much more, but there is no need. I am not a Catholic basher - I just feel that we should look to the truth in the Word and not hold on to traditions of men.
I did not call you a catholic basher,
Funny that's what the sodomites call it too, hmm.
I really believe the Catholic church is the whore that will be burned by the beast.
They Shall Hate The Whore
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
You catholics need to get out of the whore before you are made naked desolate and burned.
That's really funny. I have been accused of a lot of things, but needing to 'grow a spine' has NEVER been one of them. (LOL)
Actually, the Catholic Church is ONE, Catholic and apostolic Church - and we have the promise from Jesus Himself that 'the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against it.' (Matthew 16-18 - KJV)
The Bible was compiled around the 4 century by the Catholic Church. The Early Christians did not subscribe to Sola Scriptura. Read the writings of the early church fathers. I would rather trust the people who compiled the Bible, rather than the 30,000+ Protestant denominations and their subjective interpretations of scripture. Subjective faith needs objective evidence and you have none. Even an atheist can read the Bible and start interpreting things.
Tony Cox and the other anons speaking so passionately against the Catholic Church, everything you say about Catholicism has been repeated her ad naseum by various posters, named and anonymous. Susanna and others have addressed every single issue raised on multiple occasions. From what I recall she has never asked anyone to agree with her, or even repeated her points unless directly asked for a clarification or in response to a misrepresentation made about Catholicism.
You seem to think that by not stating how Catholics are in "error" is somehow a betrayal of your Christian faith. Think about this for a second. As Susanna has explained, Protestant "Bible-only" Christians are in error insofar as they follow a manmade rule called Sola Scriptura that is itself entirely unbibilical. Yet you don't see Susanna or other Catholics coming here to point out over and over how those who follow this manmade rule are "in error." Rather, she states her position and moves on to other things. She doesn't feel a need to assert how the version of Christianity she follows is superior to yours.
Finally, having been around here awhile (albeit it as mainly a lurker who rarely posts) I can assure you that Paul has a long history of inciting anti-Catholic "mini riots" at this blog. He's calmed down a lot since certain individuals have stopped posting, and I had really been hoping he had maybe matured a bit in this regard. One can only hope, eh?
My advice is to take an "agree to disagree" approach on Catholic doctrine as Susanna has done. The purpose of this blog is not to resolve the theological differences between Protestantism and Catholicism. As an earlier poster pointed out, Catholicism is not a variant of Wicca. Let's grow up and stop treating it like it is.
The Tooth Fairy
What would Jesus say???
Hmmmmmmm . . .
Why can't Protestant Evangelicals CALMLY DEBATE their differnces - rather than lashing out in such a violent manner?
I respect that you have your views and I think others have lumped me in with a category of which I am not part of.
As I said, I respect that you have your view and are quite strong of opinion in your response - but you have neglected to point me in the right direction regarding purgatory, intercession of saints and Mary, and Peter being without a doubt the rock upon which the church was built.
Regardless of my denominational upringing, or what faith I subscribe to - I am genuinely interested in where you would point me to find scripural evidence of such things - because these are very serious things that are very prevalent in the faith in which I was raised - I cannot speak for other denominations.
I do seek the truth, even if it means I am wrong.
Regarding the Catholic Church's teaching on Purgatory . . .
"Nothing defiled shall enter Heaven" (Revelation 21-27)
There are clear references to Purgatory in both the the Old and the New Testaments. In the Old Testament in 2 Machabees X11 43,46 the Jewish practice of praying for the dead is clearly set out it the following words - 'It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may he loosed from their sins.
In the New Testament Our Blessed Lord in Matthew V 26 refers to the prison from which no one is released before his debts are repaid to the last farthing. St. Paul in Cor. 1,3 15 mentions that there are souls who can only be saved 'yet so as by fire'. It is also stated in Apocalypse XXI, 27 in reference to heaven - 'There shall in no way enter into it anything defiled". St. Augustine says that these words clearly indicate that there must be forgiveness of some sins in the world to come, which cannot be in heaven as nothing defiled shall enter therein. Therefore Our Blessed Lord is clearly referring to a place which is neither heaven nor hell and which we call Purgatory.
"And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against it." (Matthew 16-18 - KJV)
When Catholics ask Mary or a saint to intercede for us . . . we are simply asking them to pray FOR us. We are NOT praying TO them.
There is only ONE, whom we worship and adore, and that is God Himself . . . and no other!!!
PROOF is in the Hail Mary - where we ask her to 'PRAY FOR US sinners now and the hour of our death.'
Tony thinks the "rock" is Jesus. Paul and JD probably think it's Jesus too.
The Catholic Church says the rock is Peter. Savia and Susanna think so too. So did Augustine of Hippo and many, many others.
Why should I believe Tony, Paul, and JD's interpretation of that bit of scripture over that of Savia and Augustine? Can Tony "prove" his spin is "correct"?
I hope this illustrates how futile this argument really is.
Can we please move on now?
The Tooth Fairy
I have seen those arguments before - they are nothing new to me- they are the same ones I used 20 years ago when so adamantly defending the church.
I can send you further info to show you where I am coming from - but to continue in this matter on this blog I feel is inappropiate - so here is my email address: firstname.lastname@example.org.
And by the way - we do not need anyone to intercede for us. We don't need to ask someone to tap God on the shoulder for us - simple heartfelt prayer and repentance to the Lord Himself is all it takes. Do you not see the danger in such doctirines. I really won't continue this here (other than to show you what I meant about peter). So, contact me if you wish at my email.
I don't understand why so many on here does not get this.
I'd like to read directly from the Greek language what it says in the New Testament. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but when Matthew wrote it down on the testimony of the apostles who’d been eyewitnesses he wrote it in Greek. Or if it was written in another language it was quickly translated into Greek. We have one historical reference that Matthew might have been in Hebrew or the Hebrew dialect of Aramaic according to Haggis Sippus, but there’s no manuscript ever found. We have the Greek. And it is the translation of the Greek which the Roman Catholic church bases its doctrine that Peter is “the rock”. Is that what it says?
Verse 18, and I’ll translate it word by word:
“Kago de” – “Also I” or “And also I”…
…”soi lego” – “to thee” or “to you say”…
…”hoti sy ei Petros” – “thou art Peter” or “you are Peter”…
…”kai” – “and”…
…”epi” – “around” or “on, but in the context it would mean “on”, with that I agree…
…”taute te petra” – “on this rock”…
…”oikodomeso… (from where we get the word “oikos” – “house”) …mou” – “I will build of Me”…
…”ten ekklesian” – “the church”.
It would be built on Christ, not of Peter.
At Banyas – Caesarea Philippi, there’s a cascade with millions and millions of flat chips of stone washed out of the cascade. The Greek word “petros” – “Peter”, “little Peters”. There is a big boulder on which the temple of the Greek god Pan that had been there at one time had been built and the temple to Caesar Augustus, the deified emperor, had been built that Jesus was referring to where the house would be built. That is called a “petra”. “You are one of these little chips of stone; upon this boulder I will build my church of Me.”
I know My mother the ex nun taught this to me whilst I was yet at her knee.
When asked to explain this, Roman Catholic scholars say, “But Jesus was speaking Aramaic, or a language related to Hebrew. and because Peter was a male He had the use the masculine form 'petros', which is the word for 'a little rock' instead of 'petra' which is the word for 'a boulder’”. I went to a pretty good university and a pretty good bible college and I'm told by people who are from Greece that my Greek is not bad so far as my understanding of its meaning. But I know people who are really, really fluent in Greek, they grew up speaking it and they’re experts in reading the Old Testament, the church fathers, and so forth, they are from Greece. I know people like this in Australia particularly, and they confirm what I say is right. And so if there’s any academic or a person with a degree in Greek saying what I say is right, what I say is what I was taught. Gender in Greek does not have to do with sex in any primary sense; it has to do with the way a word is used in the context of the sentence. It is not male and female as in sex, it’s male and female as in the way the word is used in the context.
But there's more. In 1 Corinthians 3:11 we read something else.
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
If anyone – if anyone – builds on the foundation of something else – gold, silver, precious stones, etc., it’ll be manifested on the day of the Lord; it will be revealed with fire; it won't stand. The only foundation we can build on is Christ, not Peter. Was St. Paul wrong? For that matter, were the early Roman Catholic popes and councils wrong? Or were the later ones wrong who said that Peter is “the rock” instead of Christ even though the New Testament says the opposite, and even though their early popes said the opposite?
The Roman Catholic Church claims that its doctrines are not only “apostolic”, but “patristic” – they come from the church fathers. I do not believe in the doctrinal authority of the church fathers. I do not believe the “apostolic” necessarily equals the “patristic”. However, even if I did, of the church fathers the Roman Catholic church looks to as a way to define what the apostles believed, most of the church fathers said that “the rock” was Christ, not Peter. A minority of them said “the rock” was the faith of Peter. Most say “the rock” was Christ, a few said “the rock” was Peter’s faith. None – not even one of their own church fathers – not only one of your church fathers has ever said that “the rock” was Peter,
Given the fact that you cannot use a chip of stone the size of your thumb – a flat chip of stone the size of your thumb – as the foundation for a building, given the fact that the original language says “You are the ‘chip of stone’ and upon ‘the boulder’ I will build My church”, given the fact as St. Paul says we can build on no foundation other than Christ Himself, and given the fact of the New Testament says that Christ is “the rock” – “petra”, “the boulder”, and given the fact that none of your own church fathers of the Roman Church believed that “the rock” was Peter, why do you? Why do you believe something which is practically, historically, biblically, patristically unfounded? And in fact, having been to Caesarea Philippi so many times, I have to say asbsurd. Why, in the early centuries, did no one believe it? Popes were fired – sacked by church councils. That is the question
You and others can NOT explain how, for about the past 2,000 years, the Catholic Church has had one long, unbroken line of Popes since Peter . . . all the way up to our present Pope Benedict.
No other Protestant denomination has been able to achieve this.
2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
I am going to have to take a break from our little 'debate' as my husband and I have to go out and run some errands.
Talk to you later . . .
Saeculum obscurum (Latin: the dark age) is a name given to a period in the history of the Papacy during the first half of the tenth century, beginning with the installation of Pope Sergius III in 904 and lasting for sixty years until the death of Pope John XII in 964. The period was first identified and named by the Italian Cardinal and ecclesiastical historian Caesar Baronius in his Annales Ecclesiastici in the sixteenth century. Other scholars have dated the period more broadly or narrowly, and other terms, such as the Pornocracy (German: Pornokratie, from Greek pornokratiā, "prostitute rule") and the Rule of the Harlots (German: Hurenregiment), were coined by Protestant German theologians in the nineteenth century. Historian Will Durant refers to the period from 867 to 1049 as the "nadir of the papacy". Baronius' primary source for his history of this period was Liudprand of Cremona.
During this period, the Popes were influenced strongly by a powerful and corrupt aristocratic family, the Theophylacti, and their relatives. The family originated from Theophylactus, who held positions of increased importance in the Roman nobility such as Judex, vestararius, gloriosissimus dux, consul and senator, and magister militum. His wife Theodora and daughters, Theodora and Marozia held a great influence over the papal selection and religious affairs in Rome through conspiracies, affairs and marriages.
Marozia became the concubine of Pope Sergius III when she was 15 and later took other lovers and husbands. She ensured that her son John was seated as Pope John XI according to Antapodosis sive Res per Europam gestae (958–62), by Liutprand of Cremona (c. 920–72). Liutprand affirms that Marozia arranged the murder of her former lover Pope John X (who had originally been nominated for office by Theodora) through her then husband Guy of Tuscany possibly to secure the elevation of her current favourite as Pope Leo VI. There is no record substantiating that Pope John X had definitely died before Leo VI was elected since John X was already imprisoned by Marozia and was out of public view.
There are credible arguments and counterarguments to be made on either side, and the fact that reputable scholars can be found on both sides of the fence demonstrates this to be so. For every ex-nun or ex-priest who leaves the Catholic Church because they find it be "in error", an ex-Protestant minister who "crossed the Tiber" can be found. Moreover, these converts come in all shapes and sizes: Evangelicals, Lutherans, Eposcopalians, even Pentecostals.
In short, I have no interest in discussing at this blog what the Bible says and does not say about sola scriptura.
The Tooth Fairy
She is still a devout catholic, and has not been able to forgive me for leaving the church.
So I have experience arguing these points. I first tried to save my family, now I try to save any here with ears to hear and eyes to see.
"many Christian Identity churches display animosity towards the Roman Catholic Church, referring to it as the Whore of Babylon."
I am sure David Duke and the Aryan Nations would be proud of you.
And I will thank God for the honour of being hated so much.
Perhaps as a devout Christian you should pray for your mother, just as I am sure she, as a devout Christian, continues to pray for you.
Come to think of it, all of us here, whether Protestant or Catholic, should be praying for each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.
The Tooth Fairy
Thank you savvy.
Out of your mouth comes the linking of hatred for romes lies to the kkk and such.
Will savvy be there at the protestant burnings?
The Catholics on this blog have not declared war on Protestants. The Protestants have unleashed the war with your hostility and name calling. So you're the ones burning us.
showing the true heart of a "forgiving" catholic.
where the next inquisition will feature angry as hell catholics spilling non catholics blood, calling us "christian identity"
for daring to stand up against the false teachings of rome.
unlike you who would love to see our blood, we want you to be saved, no matter how much you kick and scream and deny it.
almost invokes godwins law for using the kkk on a blog argument.
Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
but you catholics always resort to this kind of tactic when cornered
You haven't explained to us why we should trust your interpretations of Scripture. We can read the Bible, we don't need you to interpret it for us.
And to study Revelation, my fear (I am not saying I am right) is that when He returns, none of the worldly denominations or major religions are going to be pleasing to him.
by way of ad hominem attacks, you prove you are bible illiterate.
There are sensible and convincing arguments to be made on both sides. One of the reasons I balance out my reading between Catholic theology and Protestant theology is because I recognize that this is the case.
In short, I am not dismissing your position or saying it is without merit. I am pointing out, rather, that reasonable Christian minds can disagree on this issue without seeing the other side as apostate or "the enemy."
My own preferred yardstick when determining who is or is not a Christian is whether the individual adheres to the Nicene Creed (or at least, the principles found within it). This includes all Catholics and most Protestants who post here at this blog.
Moreover, as Christianity is an Abrahamic religion, I embrace my Jewish brothers and sisters who post here also as allies in the fight against the New Age movement which seeks to destroy the God of Abraham.
The Tooth Fairy
You have valid arguments, but if the Bible speaks for itself, why do we need you or anybody else to interpret the Bible for us.?
Find out where the very word Bible comes from. It's you who's Bible illiterate.
The Bible didn't just drop out of the sky, spiral bound, with an NIV sticker on it. The Catholic Church chose which books to include in the Bible in the Synod's of Hippo (393 AD) and confirmed it at Carthage (397 AD). A timeline of how the Bible came to us is here.
Here are the words of Professor Peter Flint, the non-Catholic scholar who translated the only English version of the Dead Sea Scrolls which won first prize from the Washington Biblical Archeology association:
"Without the Catholic Church you have no Bible, just a bunch of books and letters. With the Church you have the Bible!"
Even the word Bible is a Catholic word. Surprizingly, the word "Bible" is not in the Bible. It means books from the Greek word βυβλος-byblos meaning "papyrus", from the ancient Phoenician city of Byblos which exported papyrus, the "paper" of the day.
If I am wrong, then I will have to answer for such. Truly sorry if I offended anyone.
Thanks for your honest comments. I hope we can have sensible discussion without going off into rants about the other.
I wrote the term "Protestant Bible Thumpers" in as a reference as to how Christians are marginalized. The context was clear. I also wrote that column when extremely fatigued, about 2 a.m. in the morning when I had to leave for an out of state funeral -- I realized the urgency of putting it up after viewing the Newsweek article about widespread beliefs about Javier Solana.
I am quite used to being called "a biblethumper" myself and I wear the label as a 'badge of honor.'
Now I suppose you will write anothe anonymous post about me being filled with pride.
I am happy it's God judging me and not you!
"Peter himself the chief of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received a revelation not from man, but from the Father, as the Lord bears witness to him, saying, 'Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and bone hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven'; this very Peter, - and when I name Peter, the great Apostles, I name that unbroken rock, that firm foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called and the first who obeyed." (Homily 3 de Poenit. 4) "
St. John Chrisostom, Early Church Father
"When we hear the name of Peter, that name does not cause our minds to dwell on his substance, but we figure to our minds the properties that are connected with him. For we at once, on hearing that name, think of the son of him that came Bethsaida, Andrew's brother; him that was called from amongst fishermen unto the ministry of the Apostleship; him who on account of the pre-eminence of his faith received upon himself the building of the Church." (Adv. Eunom. 4)
"One of these mountains was Peter, upon which rock the Lord promised to build His Church (Comm. in Esai 2,66)
Basil of Caesarea (a.k.a. Basil the Great, early Church Father)
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
Cyprian of Carthage, Church Father
"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).
Ambrose of Milan, Church Father
I presume your comment is in connection with my post exposing http://www.theworldoftruth.net/9Experts/ENG/G_K/Hilder/Hilder.htm or
http://tinyurl.com/y9d59uk, a major disinformation nest with ties to Germany.
Ad hominem is usually used as an insult to the arguments of others.
"An ad hominem argument has the basic form:
Person 1 makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person 1 Therefore claim X is false."
My reply to this is that a person is known by the company they keep.
If this isn't what got your dander up, state what you are referring to and I'll be glad to give an answer.
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As I had copied and saved my comment, I reposted it again and it went through. I then saw it had been posted the first time.
This bothersome problem has just come about recently when I got 404 Errors when I tried to post other commments.
Please, do not attribute a position to me on a subject that I have not commented on. For the record, I believe Jesus was refering to Peter. I do not share the view that Peter was the first pope or Catholic as I have heard some Catholics attempt to argue(not here but in the past), how could he have been when said church did not exist at any point during his life?
I believe what Jesus was refering to were the many churches that would grow out of Peter's far reaching ministry and those who would pick up where he left off. This does include the Catholic church, but I think is foolish to say that it is exclusive to said church. An examination of my comments will show that I do not believe any modern church is free of error, and to say that because a church is the longest standing means it is in the least error is a error in itself. This is why I have said that I encourage respectfull discussion of our differences of belief, but will not sit by and let anyone be rail roaded by another who thinks theirs is the true way.
The fact is that there is but one Way, yet even scripture speaks of numerous churches who follow differently. (Rev Chapters 1-3) Most of which require correction from the Spirit of the Lord, yet all of them were represented by a lampstand. How is it that we can be told by the Lord, that we are all in error, yet squabble over who is right in their pursuit of Him? Now that is not to say that those that come preaching a different Jesus should not be rebuked, just that when a brother comes preaching that Jesus is the Messiah we should accept them as our Brother or Sister and have loving conversation about our differences.
Every confessing believer has been uniformily under attack by the enemy since Jesus went to prepare our place with Him. If this were not the case, we would not have these divisions. This is why I can easily defend my Catholic friends here, yet completely disagree with them. It is why I would stand by my protestant brothers, yet have no issue calling them on something I don't agree with. I would expect the same from everyone else as it pertains to me. If I say something that seems argumental or conflictual, it is in love and a understanding that we all are lost to our selves. Nothing more, nothing less.
Careful, dear - the 'holes' in your argument are clearly showing!!!
The only way you could have grown up hearing about Veronica Leuken is if you had attended one particuar 'wayward' church in Bayside, New York.
All devout Catholics KNOW that believing in ANY apparition is strictly OPTIONAL and not required.
you are stupid...lol
roses newsletter, veronica's propaganda piece traveled wide and far, shes even on wikipedia, wow you are as unlearned as my mom...lol
Please accept my sincere apology for carelessness in pulling out your name without actually knowing what you believe about that particular phrase. You are absolutely correct to call me out on it. (You know what they say about people who "assume" things, LOL - guilty as charged!).
I'm actually glad that it happened though because it prompted you to explain your interpretation which, in addition to giving me a new perspective, also illustrates that even non-Catholics of goodwill can disagree amongst themselves on the meaning of a key phrase in the Bible.
Now I am waiting for Paul to log in and tell us we are all wrong and that he has a fourth interpretation, LOL.
The Tooth Fairy
About the above sentence, all I can say is AMEN. You captured perfectly in a single sentence exactly my views on this entire subject.
The Tooth Fairy
now you show your ignorance
The word Bible comes from the Greek word "Biblos,
the greek language did not come from rome, rome likes to use latin, a dead language
but I will be back for some more of your attack the man and not refute the argument attacks.
I suspect he or she doesn't believe in the Bible at all, either the New Testament or the Hebrew Bible.
The Tooth Fairy
Some of the commentary on here today is so stinging and insulting it is really ugly - I hope that my posts did not come across that way.
Also, I think we should be careful to think that anyone who claims Jesus is the messiah is a brother or sister - I mean no disrespect to anyone for their opinion, but many preachers of the TBN crowd proclaim the same - and I do not consider them my brothers in Christ. Maybe I misunderstood, if so, I apologize for being too sensitive - I just happen to know many who proclaim this, and do not serve God at all - I am not implying anyone on this board is in that category - only speaking from my own experiences.
The New Testament was written in Greek, There are over 23 rites in the Catholic Church, latin is only one among them.
Do your homework honey, before trying to save us misguided Catholics.
Thanks for your kind messages. You said that there was no church in Peter's lifetime. This isn't true. There was already an established church by a 100 A.D.
Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also handed down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter (
Against Heresies 3:1:1 [A.D. 189]).
"I am just going to throw an idea out there and it is this: I suspect this name-calling anonymous who is insulting the Catholics is a New Age plant who is deliberately trying to sow division between the participants of this blog."
I made a comment in my post on the last thread which I suggested that the only time these divisive issues come up is when something important is transpiring in the world and that it is always a anonymous poster who begins the argument. This comment is what lead to the verbal battering I have taken through this thread and the previous. I suspect you will soon get a similar lashing, DON'T LET IT GET TO YOU. Remain civil, and rebutt the facts only. I hope others will see the pattern that keeps developing here and deal with it in like form. This will help weed out who's who and keep us from addressing each other improperly.
This is partly why I clarified myself again in my comments to you. As context of one persons comments can be lost when the other side of a conversation is throwing dirty jabs in and confusing the issues. In example, perception of me has went from pro-catholic, to ecumenical, to a catholic basher in the matter of a few days though my position never changed, only the tone toward me had, which confused the initial issue. I have seen this exact method transpire here numerous times over the past few years as I am sure have others.
You are right, and I should have clarified my comment better as even when Paul was writing his letters there were already established congregations of believers. What I should have stated is that there was not a church in the traditional sense from which we refer to the church, i.e. no established hierarchy, no official canon, the congregations were not united physicly or in belief, etc. Much of this was due to the persecution that believers were facing from Rome, which would ultimately lead to the deaths of the apostles themselves.
My point was that there was division then due to attacks from the enemy, just as there is division now due to the same attacks. Thankfully we are not back to the point where we are being put to death for our beliefs, but we may soon be. Thanks for catching that and calling me on it, I should have been more carefull.
Most of those of the TBN variety are preaching a different Jesus than the one I am refering to. This is why I made this distinction, and why it is important to know what Jesus said of Himself and our role as it pertains to Him. I can understand where the confusion may come in, but we were warned MANY would come in His name preaching a different version of Him.
Glad you responded, after posting that, I was hoping you did not think I was applying that to you - I was pretty confident by your writing style that you did not fall into that category - I was just throwing that out there, because you would be surprised (or actually you probably wouldn't) how many people from all walks of life, education levels, income levels can tell you that such people proclaim that very thing so therefore they must be ok.
I am also sorry to say, but I must be honest - some of the denominations discussed here today - also preach a different Jesus.
My Question again who decides who's Jesus is the right one. I know you're going to say read the Bible. But then so does TBN, Benny Hinn and a host of other people. Next you'll say ask the Holy Sprit for guidance, but these people do that too. So now I am confused as to why you think you're version of Jesus is the right one.
It can certainly be a difficult issue to deal with, which is why I amde a point to state that I believed all denominations are in some form of error. Which is why it is important to break it down to the individual and the core of their beliefs and not what denomination or church they attend. Most issues can be dealt with through loving and open conversation, so long as the base remains of Jesus role as Messiah and what He asks of us as believers. When one gets into the TBN crowd they tend to find a model of Jesus entitlement programs, which is in contradiction to what is asked of us in that we are not to live of this world though we remain in it.
It becomes very difficult when many are teaching a covetous worldly gospel that takes scripture and nullifies it with lust. Not to mention some of the All Paths gospels that are out there.
I have not assumed anything on any of you who have posted here - I have been honest with my opinions and how I feel - even if I disagreed with others, I did not assume that they were egotistical, or all knowing as some here have portrayed me and others. Your tone has been very condescending every time you disagree with a post.
I can see this board is not for me - it seems you cannot hold a healthy discussion with an open mind - I do not think this applies to all of you, and I think it shows in certain people's writing styles exactly what I am talking about.
I only tried to discuss some issues I had with experiences within my own life - I did not denigrate anyone who disagreed with me, only tried to explain why I felt that way and tried to use scripture to back it up - and of course - I may be wrong, which I have also stated. If someone becomes offended so easily as to be on the verge of insulting someone, then maybe they are not so confident in their viewpoint to begin with.
God Bless ALL of you - whether you disagreed with me or not. I think I would rather find a board where people can share their differences respectfully (and many of you here have). There are instances where disagreement can lead to learning through love and respect.
If you are interested in that topic as it pertains to infiltration into Christianity, this board is the only game in town. Please stick around and see what it is about.
Try lurking for a few months and watch the dynamics. You really need to stay with this board long term to see how these issues play out.
Then again, there is no point in staying long term unless you have a very real interest in the NA movement. There are plenty of other general Christian discussion forums.
Here are some excerpts:
"The impact of conservative or fundamentalist displeasure extends far beyond fundamentalism's borders into moderate religious territory. As some of the New Atheists have pointed out, highly conservative authority figures multiply their power by keeping moderate elements afraid of becoming the objects of conservative ire."
"I'm a Christian. I love God, Jesus, the Bible, prayer, worship, serving others -- the whole package. But when my conscience tells me that I'm hurting people by complying with religious conventions, I don't keep pressing the button. I start asking questions. That's why I wrote my book, and that's why I'm willing to get into trouble for it."
I don't see anyone attacking you, but only explaining their own positions. This is another thing that really peeves me is that no one can ever say anything without someone getting all offended or going off in a huff. What, we have to have everyone in the world agree with our own line of thinking? That's like living in a world of make-believe with pretty flowers and perfect people.
I told alex jones off and their zombies thought I was a communist.
Funny how the truth is making you people crazy with accusations again.
I am a person raised catholic, I learned it was apostasy, I ran to various other churches and found the protestants and fundamentalists were apostate. I ran here and found the same apostacy.
"Moroeover, the New Agers did consider the pre Vatican II Catholic Church as a total obstacle to their plans."
Please explain why/how the pre Vat II Catholic church posed an obstacle to the NAM that the current church does not. I am not Catholic, but my neighbors attend a Catholic church that does not recognize Vat II. I want to know more about the differences in belief between the two, especially as it pertains to NAM infiltration.
I don't think I meant that anyone attacked me - believe me I can take it.
Do SOME of you actually read the posts, or do you see what you want to see.
And Brian Mclaren? Are you serious? Another false teacher cleverly packaged to appeal to many so called "christians".
Vatican 2 did not teach new doctrine. It was a continuity , not a break. The Liberals hijacked it to mean something else, the traditionalists on the other hand still misread the document's texts. So yeah both traditionalists and liberals are not Catholic as in the term orthodox. The difference is that the traditionalists don't have the political clout the Liberals do.
I do think a line needs to be drawn in the sand, and those who are not Orthodox should be asked to make a choice. Too many people sitting on a fence.
Before I posted, I should have considered that you were being sarcastic about Mclaren - if you were I apologize, because if this is a NA board as has been suggested, then we should be concerned about his ties, or endorsements, etc with such people as Rick Warren, Tony Campolo, Chuck Colson and Dan Kimball just to name a few.
Re: your comment....
Now that is not to say that those that come preaching a different Jesus should not be rebuked, just that when a brother comes preaching that Jesus is the Messiah we should accept them as our Brother or Sister and have loving conversation about our differences.
Again, JD, well said!!!
I am reminded of Luke 9:49-50:
(New International Version)
49"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you.",
The trouble is there are many folks you claim to do things in Jesus' name who are clearly wolves in sheeps clothing. Todd Bentley is but one. In Jesus' words:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' [Matt 7:21-23 NIV]
Thanks and good points made by both. As for Bentley, not only was he preaching a different Jesus, but if I understand correctly was messing with things that if he knew the Lord, should have known not to be. This has become more of a issue because individuals have not been as responsible for THEIR relationship with the Lord. Choosing instead to rely heavily on someone else to teach them what they should have learned through their relationship with Him. In many ways this is not unlike the sad state our country is in, as americans (not all, but obviously a large section) have left the guarding of their freedoms to others and become uneducated in the matter.
In both cases one ends up with a sad lot who do not know how to wrestle loose the chains that they have found on themselves.
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