Saturday, February 14, 2009

If God is ready, are you? - Sneak preview of NewswithViews submitted article


By Constance Cumbey




I have submitted the following for publication on NewswithViews and thought I should pass it by my best friends and sternest critics for a "sneak preview." I would appreciate your response in the editorial section.

In April, 1981, in one evening, I was to write these words which later were to become much maligned in certain Christian circles -- ones I was to eventually learn had deeply compromised with New Age/Apostate interests such as Paul N. Temple and his Institute of Noetic Sciences as well as Rev. Moon and his Unification Church. They were to become part of a chapter in my book, the THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF THE RAINBOW. They were part of a chapter entitled"THE AGE OF AQUARIUS? Or THE AGE OF THE ANTICHRIST."   If you have my book which has been out of print since Huntington House went out of business in 2003, you will find this chapter from pages 36 to 43. These words were brought to mind by learning that today Mikhail Gorbachev, the former Russian Prime Minister and open devotee (per Wayne Peterson) of "Maitreya the Christ", introduced a resolution into the European Parliament for a World Water Authority.

Here was what I wrote then in a book which frankly seems more current today:

The goals of the Movement include a mandatory New World Religion [happening rapidly with the establishment of the UN based Alliance of Civilizations with cooperation from United Religions and similar groups], establishment of a "universal credit card" system, establishment of a World Health Authority, WORLD WATER AUTHORITY [emphasis added]; establishment of a universal tax and a universal draft which is truly universal -- everybody is eligible worldwide.

"The Movement" is not new. Neither is it a passing fad. Sadly, most of its participants are innocently involved. Many are under the influence of sophisticated forms of mind control [such as those promoted by claimed "Christian" Paul N. Temple" who is also the co-founder and chief bankroller of the Institute of Noetic Sciences" as well as bankroller for the National Prayer Breakfast/International Foundation/"Fellowship Foundation" of Doug Coe and company]

"The Mein Kampfs of the Movement are numerous and becoming daily less subtle. Disciples of the Movement speak proudly of having received a 'vision of light." Many speak openly of their planned welcome for the antichrist or "Maitreya the Christ." [Gorbachev himself, per Wayne Peterson]

As was indicated earlier the Movement was even bold enough to run full-page newspaper ads proclaiming 'THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE.' [Now they are running similar ads and stories again appearing in such places as THE NATION Magazine, WALL STREET JOURNAL press releases, MOTHER JONES MAGAZINE, etc.] They openly deny that Jesus is the Christ and instead proclaim the deity of a "Maitreya the Christ" and that Jesus is his disciple! They openly worship a "God of Force" and "forces." [as Daniel 11:38 clearly prophesied would happen, at least to the final end time dictator]. Characterized by common mystical experiences , many of their number possess a plethora of psychic powers enabling them to indeed show 'great signs and wonders' ranging from astral travel to psychic predictions.
Many among their number encourage the internal undermining of nations and they proudly proclaim the 'subversiveness' of their Movement as if such a designation were a badge of honor. WHILE THEY CALL FOR THE DIVISION OF LARGE NATION STATES SUCH AS CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES [partitioning part of the country off as "Ecotopia", etc.], at the same time they call for the institution of a Planetary Guidance System or other form of world government [These days they often refer to it as "global governance" -- same difference!] While they promote simple life-styles, at the same time they call for the interconnecting of the entire world by incredibly sophisticated computers with snooping capabilities that are Orwellian in scope [res ipsa loquitur -- they have achieved that via the internet for sure!]

Thankfully, some New Agers repented and came forward to warn the rest of us. Others such as Donald Keys who were bold and brash figures in the 1980s appear to have disappeared from the scene -- perhaps STILL working underground.

The New Agers shifted their focus from 1982 to a 25 year campaign for the Earth that opened in 1987 and they hoped would culminate in 2012. They shifted their expectations for having their "messiah" in the Holy Land for his staged fake second coming from the 1980s to the conclusion of a 42 year period that they claim opened with the end of the Six Day War in 1967 until 2009.[1]

Curiously enough, 2009 was also the year that the greatly focused on the Middle East, Javier Solana, the only constant figure in all the various Mitchell Commission and Quartet for Peace in the Middle East configurations, said was IMPERATIVE that the new machinery be in place.

Are we there? I don't know, but I know for sure that we are now much closer than we have ever been. We were scripturally warned that great delusion would come upon the earth and those who had not the love of the truth would be caused to believe a lie. The ever increasing chorus of the New Age is that we must learn to love and reverence the Earth itself, sometimes characterized as the "Goddess Gaia."

Thursday, February 12, 2009, a rebellious world celebrated Darwin Day. They New Agers speak often of needing to cure "digital divides." I will point to a sharp "digital divide" that they forgot -- or perhaps never knew." We were clearly warned that the Holy Spirit would not always strive with man. The day was coming when God would say: "Let he who is righteous be righteous still -- let he who is filthy be filthy still." On that day those who had not the love of the truth would be caused to believe a lie. We were to "
fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment is come. Worship God who created the heaven, the earth, the seas and the fountains of waters
Incredible pressures are upon us to worship everything and everybody but our Creator. There was a stern prophesied penalty for that: If anybody worshipped the beast and his image, they would suffer the everlasting wrath of God. Further, those accepting the prophesied mark of the beast which sounds so very similar to computer and RFID chips now being urged upon us, would have hideous sores on their body -- ones which would make them want to die but death would not come. In short, no reward either in the here or the hereafter for disregarding God's clear warnings on this one!

All ten virgins were sleeping. All ten eventually woke up. Five had enough oil in their lamps to go meet their maker -- five did not.  Five were able to go into the wedding feast, five were not. The latter remained out with gnashing of teeth.

Jesus warned that no man knoweth the day nor the hour. However, he did expect us to note the "signs of the times" and the seasons." It appears abundantly clear that such a season may be well upon us. If God is ready, are we? Maybe it is time we "foolish virgins" went oil shopping."

[1] Peter LeMesurier wrote THE ARMAGEDDON SCRIPT calling for the 1980s scenario completion in 1981, before the New Agers dreamed they had a serious backlash. In 2004 another New Age book was released: WORLD'S END: 2009 – PROPHECIES FOR THE COMING MESSIAH AND ARMAGEDDON by one Peter Lorie. It called for having their new Messiah in place in the Middle East by 2009. The book might have been laughable but for its publishers: Jeremy Tarcher, the publisher of Marilyn Ferguson's landmark 1980 book, THE AQUARIAN CONSPIRACY and Penguin books. Obviously, there was very serious intent involved!

Good article. I just want to quote you:

"Jesus warned that no man knoweth the day nor the hour. However, he did expect us to note the "signs of the times" and the seasons." It appears abundantly clear that such a season may be well upon us. If God is ready, are we? Maybe it is time we "foolish virgins" went oil shopping."

Gen. 1:14-18 Then God said, “Let there be 1alights in the 2bexpanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for SEASONS and for days and years; and let them be for 1lights in the 2expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. God made the two 1great lights, the greater 2light 3to govern the day, and the lesser 2light 3to govern the night; He made bthe stars also. God placed them in the 1expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and 1to agovern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.

The word for seasons in the first chapter of the Bible is "mo'ed" in hebrew which means "appointments" The passage about not knowing the day or hour is a reference to Yom T'ruah or feast of trumpets which comes on a new moon, there for we cannot know in advance "the day or the hour" but the seasons we do know because God gave us His calendar which is sacred time.

If we know these "appointments" where He promises to meet with us, we will be much better prepared and the oil that we need will be readily available. Part of the what we need to do is to learn to "cease from our labor" ( the meaning of Shabbat) and rest in His finished work in Messiah Yeshua.

These signs and seasons would be the exact opposite of the New Ager's "Age of Aquarius" which is the counterfeit. Satan always makes a counterfeit of the real thing. The Biblical calendar is based on the sun and moon, which are the 2 lights that God put in the sky.

Yeshua will return on a mo'ed. He was born on one, died on one, poured out His Spirit on one. This is a biblical pattern that we need to learn to recognize in this late day.

Shabbat shalom,

I appreciate your comment. However, I am compelled to tell you again of earlier concerns I had of Manifest Son of God influences upon the Messianic Jewish Movement, at least in part. "Satan never has an original idea -- he only counterfeits" is one. And the "types and shadows" were as Ernest Ramsey a New Ager (but even a broken clock is right twice a day) pointed out in his paper AN EVOLUTIONARY BASIS FOR THE REAPPEARANCE OF THE CHRIST AND HIS EXECUTIVES THE MASTERS OF WISDOM" -- the techniques of "an ancient mystery school.' The MSOG people who effectively spied upon me in the 1980s until they clumsily revealed themselves were into both -- to this day I cringe when I hear the "Satan can only counterfeit" line -- he has lots of original ideas: rape, pillage, plunder, lies . . ."

I hope you will take this in the spirit it was written -- not to condemn, but to caution you not to be taken in -- Satan / Lucifer seems to have a very broad based, something for everybody, program.



Re: "We were scripturally warned that great delusion would come upon the earth and those who had not the love of the truth would be caused to believe a line."


I think maybe you meant to say "a lie" rather than "a line"?

Anyway, thanks for the update and also for helping to put the NAM in perspective - especially for any "newbies" to your blog who may not have read your books.
From Infowars (02/13/09)

Wikipedia Threatens to Delete List of Bilderberg Attendees

The lords of Wikipedia have announced they will delete the Bilderberg attendees list entry on the site because it is allegedly a “totally un-reliably-sourced list [and] possibly defamatory towards living persons.” The announced deletion will occur five days from 2009-02-18 at 14:53.
From the Associated Press (2/13/09)

Blackwater to change name to ‘Xe’

RALEIGH, N.C. - Blackwater Worldwide is abandoning its tarnished brand name. Blackwater officials said Friday its family of two dozen business will now operate under the name Xe (zee), pronounced like the letter “z.”

The decision comes as part of an ongoing rebranding effort that grew more urgent following a September 2007 shooting in Iraq that left at least a dozen civilians dead.

Blackwater president Gary Jackson said in a memo to employees the new name reflects the change in company focus away from the business of providing private security.
thanks Constance for ringing the bell all these years! me suffering heavy attacks on peronal and professional level right now and sice some weeks now. as if I would not know were this comes from. they know where to touch to make one suffer. they behave very clever and hide behind their helfershelfer. watch out. keep me in your prayers. the enemy wants to eat us alive and the crowd is laughing as if it is a fools day joke. but their das are counted. Jesus Christ has alread won the fight, and nobody can be taken out of his hand without His will. thanks for your continious support.farmer
To Farmer (5:18 AM)

You are in our prayers.
From Infowars (02/13/09)

More Democrats Call for Censoring Talk Radio

Now Rep. Maurice Hinchey, a New York Democrat, wants to muzzle “right-wing” talk radio. “I think the Fairness Doctrine should be reinstated,” Hinchey told CNNRadio, Politico reports. The Democrat said he would have the now dormant doctrine attached to a bill he plans to introduce later this year overhauling radio and TV ownership laws.

According to Hinchey, talk radio is unfair. In other words, due to market dynamics — what people listen to — there are few Democrats and “progressives” on the dial and it is up to the government to introduce “balance” through legislation.

During the third National Media Reform Conference was held in Memphis, Tennessee, sponsored by the globalist Soros foundation, Hinchey declared that “neo-fascist” and “neo-con” talk show hosts had helped create the national climate that led to the invasion of Iraq. Hinchey neglected to mention that the corporate media, including the “liberal” New York Times, has also agitated in favor of an invasion of Iraq. It was a full-court press not limited to neocons and Bush supporters. In fact, the neocon operative Judith Miller was rewarded for her pro-invasion propaganda pieces published in the New York Times — last October, she was hired by Fox News.

I'm not offended, I'm amused.

I don't think quoting the Scriptures is Satan's deception, but I think undermining the Word of God and saying it doesn't mean what it says could be a form of deception, "did God really say?" So let's look at what He really said and address yourself to what I actually wrote, not what you imagine that I'm saying. If you want to argue, argue with the text which are God's Word, not mine.

Yeshua was crucified on Passover, He is the Passover Lamb, He is the unleavened bread ( sinless). He is the first fruit of the Resurrection. He did pour out His Spirit on Shavuot ( Pentecost ). This aren't things I've made up. They are in your Bible..

The first time He came He did these things on "mo'ed" Biblical appointments that God Himself established.

The second time He comes He will fulfill the Fall Feasts. The first time it was the Spring Feasts, the Second time the Fall Feasts. The reason that we know this is because it says in the word that there will be a series of "trumpet blasts" in the Tribulation.. but at the sound of the last trumpet...

Rev. 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in amidheaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe to cthose who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

So the Tribulation period clearly makes a connection between the trumpet blasts and judgements that will be poured out on the earth.

1Cor. 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and cwe will be changed.

Sounds like the last trumpet which corresponds with the Feast of Trumpets is the resurrection to me..The resurrection is not a "type and shadow" but a literal resurrection.

1Cor. 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; So I repeat, the Feast of Trumpets corresponds with the literal return of Yeshua and the resurrection.

The period of tribulation will be a time of great trials that will come upon the earth. Presumably a time for introspection, but also a time of warning..

Yom T'ruah ( feast of Trumpets) is a feast that occurs during a period of repentance called the Days of Awe leading up to Yom Kippur, when Israel will make corporate repentance when the House of David will corporately repent as they look up Yeshua:

Zech. 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. As we know, Yeshua comes back to the Mt. of Olives.

Zech. 14:4 In that day His feet will astand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be bsplit in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

just as He promised:

Acts 1:11-12 They also said, “aMen of Galilee, why do you stand looking into 1the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will ccome in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” Then they areturned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away.

A 'mo'ed" can be an appointed time, but also an appointed place. Mt of Olives is where He is coming back to.. on a mo'ed.. This is literal and we don't want to spiritualize this passage.

After Yom Kippur will come the feast of Sukkot when we will "dwell with God" or "tabernacle with God" i.e. the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

The problem is you are spiritualizing things in the Bible that are meant to be taken literally:

Zech. 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will ago up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Now for all those who want to search the Scriptures and see how God's placed the sun and the moon to govern the seasons i.e. the very seasons that Yeshua talked about, you will find the references there in black and white.

For those who want to hang on to vain traditions of man rather than the living Word of God, you can do that God will never force someone to come to His appointed times, but if you do show up He will meet you there.

We should be careful to avoid what Eve did in asking, "Did God really say?".

Now let's look at the Feast of Passover, which includes the feast of Unleavened Bread and First Fruits. From First Fruits we count to arrive at Shavuot, or Pentecost, also called the Feast of Weeks, when the Holy Spirit was poured out: It's ALL connected..Torah was given on Shavuot too.

Ex. 12:20 -24‘You shall not eat anything leavened; in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened bread.’” Then aMoses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, “Go and take for yourselves 2lambs according to your families, and slay cthe Passover lamb. “You shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip it in the blood which is in the basin, and apply some of the blood that is in the basin to the lintel and the two doorposts; and none of you shall go outside the door of his house until morning. “For athe LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will bnot allow the cdestroyer to come in to your houses to smite you. “And ayou shall observe this event as an ordinance for you and your children forever.

Did the Lord really say "forever"?

Let's look at the apostle Paul who is accused of undoing all of this. Now let's try to see what Feast he might be referring to?

1Cor. 5:7-8 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our aPassover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, anot with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

You see, Paul was still celebrating Passover...

and the Jews and godfearers from the diaspora were all gathered in one place at the Temple to celebrated Shavout ( Pentecost)

Acts 2:1 ¶ When athe day of Pentecost 1had come, they were all together in one place.
Acts 2:2-4 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled athe whole house where they were sitting.
And there appeared to them tongues as of fire 1distributing themselves, and 2they 3rested on each one of them. And they were all afilled with the Holy Spirit and began to bspeak with other 1tongues, as the Spirit was giving them 2utterance. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, adevout men from every nation under heaven.

This is not types and shadows, it's a reality that occured 7 weeks after Passover the same Passover where Yeshua was crucified.

After the death and resurrection and ascension of Yeshua the disciples were still observing Shabbat:

Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.

All of these feasts have not only significance for Ancient Israel, but to us today they are very relevant because they teach us about the spiritual realities of Yeshua's death, resurrection and return..

We will be celebrating them in the Kingdom, according to Scripture, if you do a careful reading of the texts.. so long answer to your short comment, am I offended? No.. not at all. I just disagree based on the text of Scripture. If what I'm saying is my own that is different, but if what I say is from the Word of God, you have to discuss it with the Word of God, not me.

If I share these things, it's to enrich the people on the blog who might not yet have discovered them, but will be very blessed if they do. Sadly Church history has veiled the Word of God.


Hi, Constance!

Thank you for this article. Since finding your book and this site in August '08, I have been trying to communicate to people the dangers ahead. We need this information.

I am a grammar/construction/mechanics geek. I found a few errors in the piece. Were you looking for critique in that category? I sent you an email with my suggestions.

I got your book out in the middle of the night. Your Rainbow book. I first read it years ago when my eyes were being opened to so many things. I'm reading it again. Things do appear to be coming to a head. But the masses are oblivious.
Constance, I think the article is good wake up call, if I am not mistaken I think that is your full intent.
As we all read - there of course are numerous pages of text we all undestand and know simply from investigating the development - even in our own sheres at times - of understanding.
I think as written - is it as intended - a good wake up call.
Now - does anyone have any good ideas on how to get before the eyes of the masses - quickly?

Constance, I posted this comment last night on your previous thread (comment #18 11:53 EST), probably while you were writing your current post. Just a coincidence we were focused on the same event?

Water everywhere, and not a drop to drink. Gorbachev’s plan for managing global disorder includes water rationing.

World Political Forum

Brussels (European Parliament), 12-13 February 2009

“The World Political Forum seeks to examine how to arrange the best possible co-ordination of international institutions and what models for future order are desirable and achievable to reduce these imbalances and differences in the search for a new political space where civilisations can meet and come to an agreement to manage international disorder. Only determined and concerted multi-lateral and trans-societal effort by international actors can avert this spiral of disorder.”

But lofty ambitions require a lofty atmosphere in order to coagulate. Just as Pedralbes Palace is the perfect site for the WEU, so too is SANTA CROCE IN BOSCO MARENGO a perfect location for the headquarters of the World Political Forum.

This PDF doc…

…shows Gorby’s "ministers" with Santa Croce’s historic Altare Maggiore as their backdrop. A fitting, albeit abominable, setting for men who view themselves as the saviors of the world, eh?

For a more intimate look at the space that is Santa Croce see:


Click view all pics.

11:53 PM

Welcome to the Age of Aquarius.
I thought I couldn't be shocked but I just googled Wayne Peterson and went to his site:

This is the looniest thing I've ever seen since this guy claims to have been hand-picked by Rockefeller, in with the secret rulers of the universe and personally visited and cured by Mary, the mother of the LORD. How can this be? How can a loony-tunes like this guy be one of the biggies and all the other apparently loonies who are running this world? When did we all walk through the Looking Glass?
To anonymous 3:38 a.m.

I corrected the typo -- but they certainly seem to be believing 'a line' that is 'a lie'!

THANKS for calling the mistake to my attention. That's what I get for writing at 2 in the morning!


Thank you, too, so very very much for your courageous work in the veritable 'belly of the beast." THERE WILL BE JOY IN THE MORNING!

To ANONYMOUS 11:53 p.m. from last article -- indeed I read and then pulled down internet link and that inspired what is indeed this WAKEUP CALL and I thank you so very much!

Dear Terri,

Didn't get to your email yet, but found several amusing mistakes, including but not limited to Huntington House. It went out of buiness in 2003, NOT 1983. 1983 was the year my book was released.


Maybe you need your own blogspot on your own perspective. The ARTICLES are supposed to come from Constance, the COMMENTS from us . . .
Constance, I sent the email earlier this morning to the gmail address you have posted on this website. Is there another one I should use?

I used YesNaSpanishTown Editing suggestions in the subject line. I just re-sent it.

To Joyce (7:44 AM):
Re: your extremely arrogant attitude toward Constance: "I'm not offended, I'm amused."


Yes, "In the beginning was Joyce and the word was with Joyce and the word was Joyce" . . .
blah blah blah!

I mean, how DID we ever manage before YOU came along last April, 2008?

Unfortunately, Joyce - your particular "interpretation" and view point does NOT justify that arrogance, or our undivided attention to your foot-long posts!!!
Anonymous 10:29 re Peterson
Always look at the links at a website. They will tell you a lot.
Speaking of Donald Keyes, here's a long shot, tongue in cheek (sorta) idea...

Maybe he has been preserved in a cryogenics lab somewhere....

Then again, maybe the idea is not so far-fetched considering the beast will have a deadly wound that was healed...

Not saying Keyes is the beast, just considering how cryogenics fits into the NA community. It's just another piece of the "man is god" puzzle to defy death. At, you can go to many NA links. There is even a link to an article by Christianity Today endorsing cryogenics. Are we surprised?

Constance, check the use of your quote marks. Reread the sentence dealing with Peter Lemesurier and change the last part.
Somehow Joyce's reasoning reminds me of someone trying to use a Rubik's cube. Take a statement from here and another from there, move them's part of the picture...but it doesn't fit with....maybe this is what it's supposed to look like.
Just curious...I think most here would agree that the rubber appears to be meeting the road. I am only a few months old on the blog. What are some thoughts on the rapture? I've sensed some disdain for it in a few posts (but no biblical support), but otherwise silence. I also understand that there are a multitude of blogs on that topic and that this one focuses on the NAM.

To Indy (2:44 PM):

Many are deeply divided regarding the Rapture.

I support Constance's view that we will all go through the "wrath" or Tribulation first.

Only TIME will tell.
Sorry, I had posted a response before on the other thread but not been logged into wordpress so lost it.

The passage I get the concept of life span is Psalms 90:10. It is couched into a Psalm talking about the wrath of God, and I think it is there for a reason. I could be wrong, but this is my sense of the matter.

In regards to 2 witnesses it could be Isreal and the church, but I don't think so, since the Jewish New Year is established by 2 witnesses. As much grief as Joyce gets she is right about the Mo'ed. And yes, it is something the MOSG crowd brow and change from.

In terms of this article Constance, I don't like the phrase going oil shopping, since we don't need to shop for oil, thus the foolishness. We, who have the Holy Spirit dwelling within need not look to an external source. This is part of what the NAR crowd pushes, is the external presence or manifestations.

And yes, things do move quickly, but it is a matter of moving lines. There are plenty "effectual deceptions" happenings from NAR, to New Age, to evolution, to moral inclusivity, and so on. Statan really does have a program for everyone. Broad is the path that leads to destruction.

Great read. I love that you have encouraging words and wake up notes for us and those that are in need of why in the world we should care about what these people are up to. Yopu picked great scripture and applied it well. You could have done it totally different but I like what you did and how I was affected while reading. Sorry I have no negative comments.
I went to Wayne Peterson's webpage and clicked on the link about his book and found something interesting. I'm not sure what year he was in Hawaii but this is what he says. Its only an exert from his book.

Hawaiian Night School

Peterson learns that the World Teacher has not come alone, but rather with a group of perfected men, the Masters of Wisdom, who form the inner government of the planet and watch over the evolution of humankind. He becomes used to some of them visiting in the early hours of the morning, generally when he is asleep, to impart their teaching on the nature of the Self and life. An early such occurrence happens in Waikiki however, when Peterson is fully awake, and finds a luminous young man standing on the twelfth-floor balcony of his locked hotel room…
Debra quoted, "An early such occurrence happens in Waikiki however, when Peterson is fully awake, and finds a luminous young man standing on the twelfth-floor balcony of his locked hotel room….."

The question remains HOW DID OBAMA DO THAT?
My email is

For the record, to the best of my knowledge, combined with other things in my library by him, Donald Keys does not have a second "e" in his last name. It is spelled KEYS.

Let's all try a little more charity in our approach -- to Joyce and to each other!


My belief on the rapture. I believe that Biblically it appears, but I do not believe that it happens PRE antichrist -- 2nd Thessalonians, Chapter 2 makes that abundantly clear, equating such a teaching as deception. That passages says that the "gathering together" cannot take place until the "falling away" (apostasia) come first AND the 'man of perdiction be revealed."
But then, I must confess that I think it would be very nice if it preceded persecution. BUT BIBLICALLY, I DO NOT THINK THAT WILL BE THE CASE. Jesus warned that many would fall away, betray one another and we would be hated by all for his name's sake. I often wonder if thsoe prophesied as having fallen away were not profoundly disappointed and lost their faith because their eschatological expectations that they would avoid suffering were disappointed and consequently they decided the whole thing was a lie.

My position: TRUST GOD. No matter how it comes down TRUST GOD. No matter how it happens, its in His perfect will and he has promised us the grace to see us through things.

"Oil Shopping" is a metaphor for having things right with God. If it was good enough for Jesus to use as a parable of the 10 virgins, 5 wise, 5 foolish, 5 of which had enough oil in their lamp and 5 who didn't, it's good enough for us. I'm certain that given the sophistication of this audience that all got it. The five foolish virgins wanted the 5 wise ones to give them of their oil. The five wise ones told the foolish ones, "go buy your own." The point is to be well stocked before that day of division comes when God says, LET HE WHO IS RIGHTEOUS BE RIGHTEOUS STILL, LET HE WHO IS FILTHY BE FILTHY STILL.

Copy below
"Solana: Unity govt in Israel good for peace talks
Posted by:Tom 1 day 7 hours ago • Discuss

WASHINGTON - The European Union's foreign policy chief says a new unity government of Israel's Kadima and Likud political parties would help Mideast peace talks.
Kadima is led by moderate Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni . After final election results Thursday, the party had a slight lead over Benjamin Netanyahu's hawkish Likud.
EU official Javier Solana says an Israeli government led by Netanyahu would be more difficult for the peace process.
In the most likely scenario for a unity government, Netanyahu would be prime minister while Kadima would hold ministries such as finance, defense or foreign affairs.
Solana also said Friday in Washington that there could be a deal within 48 hours between Israel and Hamas on a long-term cease-fire in Gaza. Egypt is mediating the talks.
While I was following up on the link to Wayne Patterson, I decided to check out Share Intl. to see if what they have been up to. I read a very interesting interview with "the master" or whatever:

I'll post some excerpts that I found quite striking:

"Q. Much, perhaps too much, is expected of the new American President. Do you think the world is being too optimistic? Barak Obama is expected to solve the major current world crises: the economic crisis, the environment, unemployment, collapsing industries, growing homelessness, rising poverty, conflict in the Middle-East and terrorism. Surely such a task would take a superman to get to grips with?

A. Absolutely true. Luckily, we do have a superman who really can show us the way to solve these problems – His name is Maitreya. The rest is up to us. We have to make the right decisions in the light of Maitreya’s ideas. Obama could be a decisive voice for a ‘new’ America – co-operative and willing to listen to others – in the world.

Q. The elections and the prospect of a new era in US politics with Barak Obama as President seems to have lifted the spirits of Americans and many others around the world. Do you expect a new phase of moderation and negotiation instead of warmongering?

A. Yes. He probably would not immediately withdraw from Iraq or Afghanistan, but as soon as possible, whatever that means; but we can look forward to dealing with a President who does not seem to speak or act from ideological demagogy, who is empirical and moderate and who has a very sick country to restore to health. He has this in his favour – Maitreya and His vision, energy and love. What an example for him to follow!"

David in B.C.
Here are a few more excerpts:

"Q. What will it take to convince both sides in the conflict that they must negotiate to arrive at a point where peace and tolerance become possible in Palestine and Israel?

A. It is easy to say they should negotiate but the gap between the two sides is very wide and I am convinced that it will take Maitreya to bring them together. The problem is that a negotiated peace has to be fair to last. So far, the Palestinians have never been offered a fair or just solution. Nor has Israel been open to negotiation on crucial matters of difference.

I believe that a worldwide embargo of Israel, such as was applied to South Africa which led to the end of apartheid, would be the most effective way to bring Israel to the negotiating table."

Here's one more tidbit:

"Q. Israel’s military power depends on American financing and supplies. Will the economic collapse in the US and around the globe have a positive impact on the conflict between Israel and Palestine?

A. Mr Obama has already said words to the effect that America would stand behind Israel but financial pressures may cause some lessening of US financial support. In any case, I am sure it will take Maitreya to reconcile these two groups."
hey folks,this is tony from vermont and i wanted to say that joyce is showing us all something that strikes me as profoundly wonderful!The feasts of our Lord are days of celebration in the fullest sense of the word! This here's cause for a shin-dig!! Like the river joins the ocean, as the germ in the seed grows,...we'll finally be free'd to get back home!!! Can't you feel our souls ignite as we activate our prayer capsules in preparation for lift-off at the sound of the trumpet-what some of em call gabriels horn! lets keep on prayin' and lookin' up and listenin'. boy oh boy, this is some exicitin'. thanks for the info on mo'ed's joyce...keep it coming, and thank you constance for making all of us so aware of soo much!!!!!!!
I get it. This blog now provides sanctuary for the intellectually inept from the ravaging mob who would do harm. Charitable thing for you to do.
At least "maitreya" has sided with Republicans on one matter:

"Q. We hear a lot these days about “bail-out packages” to jump start nations’ economies, as well as increased government spending on their countries’ infrastructures in order to create jobs. Also, countries already have enormous amounts of national and foreign debt, and are printing money around the clock. Will all this make it even more difficult to switch to an economy based on sharing? Do not the debts have to be paid off first?

A. These money-spending policies will not work. This is not a Roosevelt New Deal. The times are very different although the present situation resembles that of the 1930s. This is the end of the Age, and order (or disorder) is not a passing storm. It will help people to see sharing as the only way to restructure the world economy."
From The Weekly Standard
Murder in Moscow
Press criticism, KGB-style.
"Needless to say, a return to socialist ideals would stand no chance of protecting human rights from state abuse."

Now what was that form of government that seems to be coming into the US rather quickly?

I've sent my corrections to twice. Nothing is bouncing back. It must be lost in that cyber cloud somewhere. Here are my suggestions:

*Regarding goals of the movement, World Water Authority is listed twice:

establishment of a World Water Authority, World Health Authority, WORLD WATER AUTHORITY [emphasis added];

*Paragraph spacing needed


Wayne Peterson) of "Maitreya the Christ", introduced a resolution into the European Parliament for a World Water Authority. (Paragraph space)
Here was what I wrote then in a book which frankly seems more current today:

in the 4th paragraph of your exerpt:

powers enabling them to indeed show 'great signs and wonders' ranging from astral travel to psychic predictions. (Paragraph space)
Many among their number encourage

*This sentence is unclear to me. Something is not right in construction:

Curiously enough, 2009 was also the year that the greatly focused on the Middle East, Javier Solana, the only constant figure in all the various Mitchell Commission and Quartet for Peace in the Middle East configurations, said was IMPERATIVE that the new machinery be in place.

My suggestion: Make 2 sentences and add “it” in the last line.

Curiously enough, 2009 was also the year that the greatly focused on the Middle East. Javier Solana, the only constant figure in all the various Mitchell Commission and Quartet for Peace in the Middle East configurations, said it was IMPERATIVE that the new machinery be in place.

*???caused to believe a line—should read caused to believe a lie

*Thursday, February 12, 2009, a rebellious world celebrated Darwin Day. They New Agers speak often of needing to cure "digital divides." I will point to a sharp "digital divide" that they forgot -- or perhaps never knew." We were clearly warned that the Holy Spirit would not always strive with man. The day was coming when God would say: "Let he who is righteous be righteous still -- let he who is filthy be filthy still." On that day those who had not the love of the truth would be caused to believe a lie. We were to "

*those accepting the prophesied mark of the beast which sounds so very similar to computer and RFID chips now being urged upon us, would have hideous sores on their body (should be bodies)

*Incomplete sentence

In short, no reward either in the here or the hereafter for disregarding God's clear warnings on this one!

*There are quotation problems throughout, particularly in the excerpt section. I’m not sure if you are using the rule for quoting continuous paragraphing (it is inconsistent between paragraphs and unnecessary if indenting the excerpt). Also, there are problems with the quotes within quotes--check for complete pairs.

Quotation marks are not complete in the closing paragraph:

Jesus warned that no man knoweth the day nor the hour. However, he did expect us to note the "signs of the times" and the “seasons." It appears abundantly clear that such a season may be well upon us. If God is ready, are we? Maybe it is time we "foolish virgins" went “oil shopping."
one thing we can all count on for sure is that things are gonna get real far-fetched in these end-times as the advesary and his foolish goons start in to acting-out the fulfillment of all these things to come.they're gonna try and pull some sort of dramatic hoax on the world which may even involve demons dressed up -so to speak- as aliens with spaceships, who've got higher wisdom than even guys like me! boy that'll be the day. i mean all this talk about the "ascended masters" sounds like watching cartoons these days. well we do know truth is stranger than fiction so's we better be ready for anything! i'm sure glad to be in the know about all this. Praise God, i'm praying to be counted worthy to escape all these things like Lukes gospel writings say to do. tony in vermont
Christopher Field of the Carnegie Institution for Science says that carbon emissions from humans has increased more than expected. Biofuels has backfired because rain forests in Brazil are being cut down to produce more soy.

The problem of course is human beings. "Despite widespread concern over global warming, humans are adding carbon to the atmosphere even faster than in the 1990s, researchers warned Saturday."
boy i like the way joyce pointed out the fact that we need to rest in the finished work of jesus, referring to the cross and his blood sacrafice. Amen /Let us all give thanks daily and nightly over and over again... tony in vermont. Also when i said celebration of feast days i was reffering to specifically Rosh ha shanna- the feast of trumps in particular. I don't know all so much about the other feast days but plan on learning their meaningfulness.

I concur with your reading of 2 Thessalonians, but to bring another point of view to light, in my Bible study- they specifically say that what is being referenced in the passage after the "apostasy" and the "revealing of the man of lawlessness" is the Day of the Lord- not the gathering together. Since my translation has the word AND I would expect that they go together, but there was something about it being in the Greek, it only references the last phrase, Day of the Lord.

Perhaps someone with better knowledge of Greek construction could shed light on it, because it totally changes the meaning of the passage.

Otherwise, Constance the article sounds good to me, I have already sent a link to several friends to check it out. One thing several of us newbies have trouble with is understanding the "plan" of the New Agers and I really don't have as much time as I used to to read all those books. Thanks Constance for tking the time to sum it all up.

I guess that should be "taking" not tking. Perhaps I should proof read before hitting send.

I happen to agree with you about the "rapture". I want to point out from the Scriptures that Yeshua said very clearly:

Matt. 24:29-36 But immediately after the atribulation of those days bTHE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND cTHE STARS WILL FALL from 1the sky, and the powers of 1the heavens will be shaken. “And then athe sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see bthe SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. “And aHe will send forth His angels with bA GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His 1celect from dthe four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.“Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, 1recognize that 2He is near, right aat the 3door. “Truly I say to you, athis 1generation will not pass away until all these things take place “aHeaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. “But aof that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

First of all, if we just examine Yeshua's words He says He's coming IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days. He is also explaining to His disciples what to expect, what to look for. It seems logical that if He didn't think His followers had to consider all of this He wouldn't have warned them. Also the text says plainly AFTER. Yeshua isn't having 2 Second Comings but one, so how would that work if there was a rapture... He would come secretly?? No. He said plainly how to look for His coming, and He said plainly when He would gather us and you will also notice that He is going to gather with a GREAT TRUMPET, once again pointing us to the Feast of the verse in 1Thes 4, that I referred to earlier.

Another point about "not knowing the day or the hour" is that Yeshua's incarnate presence on earth, meant that He had specifically limited Himself in very specific ways. i.e. He physically died and we know that God cannot die, so even though He was all of the fulness of deity in bodily form, He was subject to limitations as man, that He wasn't as God, by His choice obviously.

Without getting too much off subject though, the other verse people use to justify the rapture is that we are not destined to wrath, which I agree with. We are not destined to wrath ( His children) but wrath is not the Tribulation and God is able to protect us as He did Ancient Israel, when He was pouring out plagues on the Egyptians ( judging the gods of Egypt). God will judge also the gods of this world, which is why I don't worry too much about all of these seemingly powerful globalist types.. who have some temporary power, but not one drop more than God will allow them.

If the exodus from Egypt is any example, we see that the first few plagues did touch Israel, then the rest of them would occur only on the Egyptians, even though Israel was still in Goshen. The protection for Israel was to obey God's Word visa via His servant Moses and then put the BLOOD OF THE LAMB on the door, interestingly in the form of the Hebrew letter "the Heh" is a letter than is contained in the name, YHVH and it is also the letter that was added to Abram to make him Abraham..

Rev. 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now, I don't want to be beheaded, but the Bible seems to indicate that there will be those who refuse the mark of the Beast, and will be beheaded.

I know some who use this verse to say, that the antimessiah will be a Muslim because beheading is still practiced in Muslim countries.

One thing we can say for sure is that some believers in Yeshua will face persecution:

Rev. 13:10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Today, our brothers and sisters in other countries, particularly Muslim countries, but in other places too are persecuted for the Word of God, so I want to suggest it is very American to think we will never suffer, but it's not very Biblical.. Almost all of Yeshua's followers faced violent deaths. I don't like that idea anymore than any of you, but I would rather be prepared for the idea that it could happen and trust God to give the grace necessary for whatever He permits, than think I'll never suffer and be disappointed if hard things come.

Whether the "beast system" is Muslims, New Agers, or some combination combination of the above, we know that those who hate Yeshua are ultimately inspired by Satan, and they will want to destroy anyone who testifies to Him. It's important to remember this verse:

Matt. 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Almost as much as I detest "the New Age" is my aversion to snideness and snobbery, such as what was posted by this anonymous one apparent represents:

" I get it. This blog now provides sanctuary for the intellectually inept from the ravaging mob who would do harm. Charitable thing for you to do."

Group mob mentality was a big factor in the horrors of the Nazis as they sought to marginalize the Jews. It is never pretty to see a group gang up on a person . . . I was picked on as a child in school because my mother was a little diffrerent . . . I won't have it here on my board as long as I can control it. You will just have to learn to get along . . . preferably without insults! State your case without unduly belittling others!


Joyce, you are correct, but respectfully speaking, it appears that most on this blog are regrettably not familiar with the Jewishness (i.e., Hebrew Roots) of Christianity, so what you said goes over their heads. It's a shame too because understanding the Jewishness of our faith in Christ reveals prophetic clues in scripture that are otherwise not revealed : (
Here is Young's literal which can be helpful:

2Th. 2:2-4 not readily to become unsettled in mind or troubled—either by any pretended spiritual revelation or by any message or letter claiming to have been sent by us—through fancying that the day of the Lord is now here. Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against, and exalts himself above, every so-called ‘god’ or object of worship, and goes the length of taking his seat in the very temple of God, giving it out that he himself is God.

Bear in mind that some think a lot of this was fulfilled in the first century with the Roman ruler Titus.

I happen to not agree with that perspective because if we read Yeshua's words carefully in Matt 24, He's actually addressing two things. 1. the destruction of the Temple which was about to take place 2. the later days, when He would return. Look:

Matt. 24:1-3 Jesus had left the Temple and was going on His way, when His disciples came and called His attention to the Temple buildings. “You see all these?” He replied; “in solemn truth I tell you that there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be pulled down.” Afterwards He was on the Mount of Olives and was seated there when the disciples came to Him, apart from the others, and said, “Tell us when this will be; and what will be the sign of your Coming and of the Close of the Age?”

I think from the verses I posted you can see that there is a clear indication that 70ad did not fulfill the Tribulation, there is a 1000 year Millennial reign where Yeshua will reign from Jerusalem and there is no indication that we will get "raptured" before the tribulation, because what people refer to as the pre-trib rapture is actually the resurrection.

It is interesting to note that the idea of a rapture is only a couple of hundred years old and comes from Darby and the theology of Dispensationalism. This view of Scripture separates Israel and the Church, instead of seeing it as one "ekklesia" "called out assembly" "qahal" from the time of the Wilderness.

I believe that God has been building His Assembly from the Wilderness and all of the saints of Tanach ( OT)are part of it with those who are "post-Yeshua".

Heb. 11:24 -6 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, aconsidering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the breward.

LOOK WHAT IT SAYS, Moses considered the reproach of Messiah greater than the treasures of Egypt...but wait a second. Yeshua was not born yet?? He wasn't incarnate yet.. He was always there and Moses looked forward to His day.. He saw it from afar. All of the men of the heros hall of faith in Hebrews 11 looked forward to Yeshua's day and were justified. They are part of the ekklesia, the "called out assembly" which is translated in our Bibles "church" but is a bit misleading because in Hebrew the word is qahal and means exactly the same thing.

Hi Tony from Vermont,
Nice to hear from you. Blessings in Yeshua.

Bible Fanatic,

You are right. Because of centuries of Bible translations that had particular biases, and anti-semitism, which is a shame because Yeshua came from the tribe of Judah ( Jews) , and also David and we should all be "hebrews" which means we crossover from our old life in Babylon to follow the Living God.. and we should all identify with and attach ourselves to Israel who wrestled with God and persevered. All the writers of the Bible were Hebrews and without an understanding of that perspective we lose much.

Ruth understood this when she said, "your people will be my people and your God will be my God".

Blessings in Yeshua,
I'm going to do what my enemies accuse me of and write two more posts. :o)

Appreciate the comments which are quotes Share International from David in BC, particularly this:

"Q. Israel’s military power depends on American financing and supplies. Will the economic collapse in the US and around the globe have a positive impact on the conflict between Israel and Palestine?"

1/3 of Europeans in a poll blame Jews for the world economy ( especially after the Madoff affair which was felt globally)

Jimmy Carter in an interview for his new book says we should use financial pressure on Israel to get them to "cooperate" with us.

Israeli elections are really messy and now Lieberman who would have joined the Netanyahu government is being accused of money laundering. In fact Israeli press says its' SURE that he was money laundering.

Israeli politics is a little complicated, but I suspect that means more shared power for Livni and Netanyahu.. It's been a bizarre election with both claiming victory. We will see what the implications are for the peace talks, but if the Israeli economy like other economies is down and if US starts threatening aid, Israel might bow..

One of these days Israel will learn to trust God more than the US, especially since the US is not following God. ( dividing the Land)

All the great men of Israel, like David, stood on the Word of God. ( you can draw your own conclusions about what this implies for Jimmy Carter)

Something else to watch is the reform in Saudi Arabia:

What is extremely interesting about this is this week I noticed in some paper that Prince AlWaleed bin Talal, the financier who put 20million respectively into Harvard and Georgetown, owns big chunks of Citibank, Eurodisney, Newscorp, etc. let his wife pose without being covered. She is a beautiful and very modern Muslim woman. The Prince himself claims to be a "modern Muslim". She was quoted as saying she has an international drivers license, which she uses when she leaves Saudi Arabia. ( women are not allowed to drive there) and as soon as the laws are liberalized she will drive in Saudi too. The Prince supports these reforms, has women who work in his office uncovered... Remember in Saudi Arabia there are religious police on the streets that beat woman if a little speck of hair is showing.

I think these moves are significant in trying to bridge the "Clash of Civilizations" to make the Alliance of Civilizations..and in all the interreligious dialogues. We should keep our eyes on this. Remember Saudi Arabia, like all Arab kingdoms has to balance their internal problems with the many radical Muslims who would like to do to Saudi, like Khomeni did to Iran and overthrow the king in favor of an Islamic Caliph. This worries countries like Saudi Arabia quite a bit, so they must balance between Western interests and their own internal problems.

Islam doesn't say women can't drive.. The Quran was written when cars didn't exist, so... this is really a way to oppress women and keep them in 7th Century Arabic culture. We won't even mention the laws that punish women when they are rape victims..( SCREAM)

More importantly, what message is Saudi Arabia sending and how does this correspond with the image that someone like Obama will try to create of Islam in America. Obama is a universalist, if one listens to his speeches. If Islam can improve it's image in the Western world, it will help greatly to establish the Alliance of Civilizations...

Good message to Joyce Constance:
"State your case without unduly belittling others!"

Try to make it clearer the next time.
This is an example of belittling others which is bad. It belittles Israel, the US and Jews because Israel is the land of the Jews.

"One of these days Israel will learn to trust God more than the US, especially since the US is not following God. ( dividing the Land)."

It is a simplistic statement which sounds important on the surface, as if the writer knows something.

Countries are composed of people and the government doesn't speak for all of the people. Israel isn't a "thing" that can do something.

Israel doesn't "trust" the US. It doesn't implicitly "trust" the US. It has diplomatic relations with the US, each side hoping to gain something.

The US is not a "thing" that can follow God. The US is a governing body.

The writer belittles Israel and the US for not following the superior advice she feels she gives.

This is not a playground with a teacher with a ruler in her hand. Please do not belittle posters here with such simplistic comparisons.
At the risk of abusing my welcome, I want to put something that I found:

This comes from a link on Heinrich Eliyahu Benedikt's Jerusalem Academy:

Take a careful look at this site:

which links from this site:

on Jerusalem Academy's links, for all you who are not familiar:

The partners are EU, Ford motor company, British Consulate, UNESCO among others and this:

and Bosch:

and this is the most interesting:

The Floersheimer Institute
for Policy Studies, which is mentioned on the link is out of Hebrew University and is mentioned in the ACADEMY of JERUSALEM, not to be confused with Jerusalem Academy, but many of the same ideas contained on their site.

At a quick glance, there is a lot on all of these links and I would appreciate if some of you like Rudi who like digging take a very careful look. I suspect we are seeing at least in part some of the plans for "solving the problem of Jerusalem".


You said:

"The writer belittles Israel and the US for not following the superior advice she feels she gives.

This is not a playground with a teacher with a ruler in her hand. Please do not belittle posters here with such simplistic comparisons."

No I am not belittling Jews, posters or anything else, just stating facts. . I'm speaking of the government, whose decisions are not based always on the Torah, but more often on political, economic realities.. I happen to love Israel, and pray for the peace of Jerusalem ( true peace) and long for the day when Messiah comes back to reign and bring that peace. You don't have to feel that you are the defender of Israel or the posters. Israel does not always follow God and neither does the US, and in these two cases it should be fairly obvious, I am referring to the government leaders who don't always base their decisions on the Bible.. The Bible indicates that too by the way. . The reason MY PEOPLE are scattered is because we did not listen to God, so I'm not saying anything that the Bible doesn't say.

Deut. 28:64 “Moreover, the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known.

If the US Govt divides the land of Israel, God will enter into judgement with our country. God does bring judgement on nations, I'll remind you:

Joel 3:2 I will agather all the nations And bring them down to the bvalley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will center into judgment with them there On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, Whom they have dscattered among the nations; And they have edivided up My land.

I hope that the US, that I also love, does not do what the prophet Joel said, but I'm afraid it probably will and the nation will be judged because leaders do bring judgement on their nations, unfortunately...but remember, theoretically we elect our leaders, so we're asking for it...

Since the leaders of many churches and other religious groups now think Israel should be divided too, it's not surprising that the government is able to do this.

I do know many Jews, Christians and Messianics who live both in US and Israel who do not want to see the Land divided, so there are many individuals that see the Biblical implications of this...

Sorry that I didn't word my post to your satisfaction.

There are definitely hints of Dorothesque thinking in the comment though, so it doesn't surprise me. Still praying for that Dorothy. Hope she's okay..


You're going to love this one:

This organization:

with Madriaga foundation, is connected to Jerusalem Academy by this fellow:

who is on the Board of Evens:

and Jerusalem Academy..

I don't think we've exhausted the research on Jerusalem academy or Academy of Jerusalem...lots of amazing links..

Praying for you Farmer (Bjorn)!
God is watching all you do.
Have faith.
May The Holy Spirit strengthen and comfort you.
Thank You Jesus!

Anon 3.38AM.

Talking about "a lie", write the names Satan, Lucifer and Devil and note the letters which appear TWICE. Using the first of each pair you see it spells out "A LIE" in that very order no less. And then, as if to convince even the hardest heart, the remaining letters of the four pairs spell the same words again - "A LIE".

Of the 17 letters 9 are used only once and four (A LIE) are used twice. 9 + 4 = 13 (Sin and Rebellion).

Isn't that what we are being fed continually?

The Encyclopedia of Associations puts out an International Associations edition which includes over 9,000 organizations. This does not include sets titled Encyclopedia of Associations National Organizations of the US and another titled Regional, State and Local.

Simple fact: Organizations work together.

Gone are the days when an individual never lends his name or organizational name to a new operation unless they are deeply involved with the works.

What you've shown Joyce, is that there is a culture surrounding interest in the future of Jerusalem among many other things. Whether this culture speaks with one mind and can influence the future of Jerusalem is another issue.

Research has become harder and harder as we try to determine where in the pyramid of organizations around the world each group really stands.

Follow the money and not the letterhead.

Giving information and links such as you had on that last post is NEVER "abusing your welcome." That was valuable and thanks!

One of the players of IPCC, Ford Foundation:

All total they spent 20 million on Mideast. Not too shabby, but a insignificant compared to what will be needed to finish the plan there:

Obama was elected with a lot of funds from diverse sources, so I'm not sure there's always an easily traceable source of funding. If you know how to find it, I'd be interested to know..

Bosch, also involved with IPCC is an interesting German company, that worked for Hitler:

...but it appears that reporting requirements in EU are less transparent than US:

What's interesting is the Center on International Cooperation, instead of the International Peace Cooperation Center:

Ford is on it again, but George Soros Open Society Institute as well.

Joyce I would like to write about the Bosch connection, and the situ there was not always so clear as it is now, with their hands at Biometric tech developement, when Robert Bosch was still alive he was an outspoken oppenent of Hitler (as can be read in former German president Theodor Heuss book), still he had prison workers working for him. I was sometimes partying in his private villa and build a Bosch website after the plan of his house but stepped out of Bosch Stiftung later when I found their Biometric involvement, even though they offered my good money, as money is something they definitly have not too less. The company Bosch is owned by the foundation and not the other way round....farmer
thanks for your prayers, so much appreciated!! fARMER
Hi Bjorn,

Thanks for clarifying that.. May Abba bless you and fill you with His shalom,
In charity, Constance. some of us here at this blog would like to see less "leaps" of reason to certain conclusions that are poorly substantiated, yet spoken with a tone that is derogatory of others. One can accept or reject analysis that is offered, but to allow constant judgements couched with such obviously derogatory remarks as "I am amused" seems unnecessary. If you want to prune the hedge here, make sure you attend to all the brush.
There's been enough disrespect for others on here to go around. Let's seriously try for a kinder and gentler board. I, for one, am sick of the squabbling. Let's post our information without sniping at each other.

In the New Age/Apostasy department, let's not forget about Hans Kung.

Kung is a Catholic priest and Swiss theologian whose authority to teach Catholic theology ("missio canonica") was rescinded by the Vatican on December 18, 1979.

My only guess as to why he hasn't been suspended and/or declared excommunicated is because:

1. Since he is a priest and not a bishop, he can't ordain other "Kung clones" to the Roman Catholic priesthood

2. Declaring Kung excommunicated MIGHT have done more harm than good by making Kung appear to be more of a "martyr" than he makes himself out to be.

3. Since his books are not likely the type of books ordinarily read by rank and file Catholic laypersons, whatever DIRECT influence Kung might have on the Roman Catholic laity has been relatively limited - especially in view of the rescinding of his "missio canonica" in 1979.

In any case, these are merely GUESSES on my part and at the end of the day, I do not pretend to know everything there is to know about Kung's dealings with the Vatican.

However, these are a few facts about Hans Kung that are NOT a matter of mere guesswork and ought to give one pause concerning the infiltration of the so-called "left wing" of the New Age Movement into the Catholic Church......and potentially into other Christian denominations insofar as Kung appears to insists on peddling precisely the false kind of "ecumenism" that other posters here have rightly suspected criticized. A false "ecumenism" that seems to be "Freemason-friendly" in light of the fact that Kung received an award from the German Freemasonry in 2007.


The architect for the Global Ethic Foundation, the Swiss theologian, Hans Kung has been awarded the German Freemasons' Culture Prize.

Grand Master Jens Oberheide said that the ideal of a common ethical foundation based on human rights and the demand for freedom, equality and fraternity that underlay Kung's foundation was also "fundamental" for Freemasons. Although the Vatican has rejected Freemasonry, Kung said the award was an encouragement and added "Hope...accompanies every great new beginning."

THE TABLET, May 26, 2007. p. 39


(Translated by Leonard Swidler)



As the following article indicates, it is not the Pope or the Vatican that is trolling for a loosey-goosey false "Kumbaya" ecumenism.

...However, Fr Küng fell out with the Vatican and his former colleague in 1979 when he was stripped of the right to teach theology by Rome after criticising the doctrine of papal infallibility.

The bitter row continued after Benedict’s election as pope in 2005, when Fr Küng said he was “bitterly disappointed”. However, he was unexpectedly called to dinner with the pope shortly afterwards and the two men appeared to have reconciled, with Fr Küng publicly stating his hope in the new regime.

In an interview with La Repubblica, however, he said: “Rome continues to block every sort of renewal, and is blocking any ecumenical unification with the protestant and orthodox churches. This pope has made serious mistakes.”

He softened his attack, however, by adding that he hoped Benedict would carry out “other courageous acts” to reverse the situation entire article


Of course this one takes the cake!



"My Troubles"

When Küng's license to teach as a Catholic theologian was revoked, he declared himself a victim of Vatican tyranny. Actually, he was neither defrocked nor barred from teaching theology, but merely prohibited from teaching it as a Catholic theologian. Shifting roles from professor of Catholic theology to professor of Dogmatic and Ecumenical theology, he continued to teach at the University of Tübingen until his retirement in 1996.

Nevertheless, his world was painfully changed. Even now, he persists in introducing himself as a "Catholic theologian," and he still refers to the CDF rebuke as "my troubles." Last year, in a National Catholic Reporter interview with Patricia LeFevere, Küng called it a period of humiliation, heartache, and depression. His current Global Ethic materials open with the extravagant claim, "I know from experience all the dark sides of the religions."

After Küng lost his Catholic certification, he sought significance through a multitude of organizations and movements with Orwellian names. He is president of his own Global Ethic Foundation in Tübingen; a member of the United Nations' honorific Council of Eminent Persons, appointed by Secretary General Kofi Annan; advisor to the "Interaction Council of High-Level Experts" and author of its Human Responsibilities Declaration; and a prominent presence at the occasional meetings of the Parliament of the World's Religions. His protégé Leonard Swidler named him as one of three theologians (with Jacques Pohier and Edward Schillebeeckx) whose condemnation by the Holy Office inspired formation of the Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church (ARCC) in 1980. Küng reciprocated by contributing to ARCC's proposed Church entire article...

Leonard Swidler....or "Swindler" as Constance has appropriately dubbed him is an associate of Kung's.... and is associated with other New Age-style "Catholic" dissenters besides Kung.

My apologies if anyone has already posted these. But with regard to links containing data on the New Age, "two is better than none."

I don't want ANYBODY on this site to feel inhibited to post information leads for fear that they may not have drawn "proper conclusions". I am quite capable and most of you are as well of going to the links and between us we can gain a fuller picture of what is happening. If we are going to wait for PERFECTION it will never happen. None of us are perfect -- at least, not me!

Constance, Sorry I didn't explain myself better.
I view the "shopping oil" as being looking toward external resources, or an external "presence." The borrowing from others, reeks of the "transferable annointing" concepts. Ultimately we who have Jesus as Messiah, who have turned in surrender to Him, have all that we need and recognize that we don't need any external or internal source of "oil."
I recognize the pointing to being ready and prepared. In general, each of our ability to submit and wait on God is but small. We all have "little faith" or little oil beacuse we all too often get far to caught up in our selves and are own ideas.

I see many of the deceptions as being pointing at ways to "get oil" that are false. The NAR and "Revival" crowds point to external manifestations. We have the Holy Spirit within. The New Age/Contemplative crowd turns inward by matters of self, the "Moral inclusive" types such as Warren also have a self-focused message. It is all elevation of self and false. So, when I see the term "shopping oil" while it may be used as a reference of getting right with God, I see it by many as taking these paths of deception to "be ready" instead of growing in dependence on God. Our dependence on God is always generally small, our faith is generally little, because our self gets in the way far to often.
Dear Constance,

This is a heads up.

I just sent you an e-mail with news concerning a mutual friend that I am sure you would want to know about.
Well Eckert Tolle is on ABC News tonight (Sunday 15 Feb 09), the national feed, and he is being interviewed saying that Christians believe what we do because of our "ego". This was an interesting interview because I never heard this poor nut speak before. Its very diffcult to digest what he says as though he means it.

So as we head into the end days, lost folks like this make our mission work that much more difficult, and forgive me, I cant help it, I find folks like Tolle somewhat amusing because of their pious self-worth, which I guess comes from those who say that we save ourselves, and not our Lord.

There are so many like Tolle who need our prayers. Please try to keep their salvation in your prayers because they have no one and their isnt much time left.


Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for "planting a seed" of truth. When I first started reading the blog in December I found the time to read all of it and your many postings with scripture and specifically the statement about most of Christianity severing Yahshuah's Hebrew roots stuck.

For the last few months myself and a close friend were really being led to start observing the true Sabbath and we have begun to do so. I am working on learning the unclean food laws and am looking forward to the appointed times - the moyedim, and made the commitment to give up the very nasty pagan originated festivities of "easter" and xmas.

I meant to provide my email before, this is not my personal but for obvious reasons will use my site one and then give my personal one. Please email me if you have anything you'd like to share.


Shalom in Yeshuah
We all know the United Nations is a VERY complicated, gigantic, organization…or “body” , to use, I think, a word better suited to give a visual understanding of how it operates. The UN body consists of innumerable smaller, themselves, muti-faceted organizations called NGO's, working at all levels. NGO’s
(non-governmental organizations)are the life-blood and breath of the whole UN body. The arms, hands, legs and feet are the individuals that carry out the work of the UN in smaller communities.
On October 24, 2001 a group at the UN in Geneva set up the Spiritual Caucus for the purpose of adding a “spiritual and ethical component to United Nations' work.” An application was submitted to CONGO (Conference of Non-Governmental Organizations in consultive relationship with the United Nations).In a October 30-31 2002 Vienna meeting it was discussed further and officially adopted. Following a year of work and discussions, the NGO “Committee on Spirituality Values and Global Concerns” (CSVGC) came into being at the end of 2004. Other NGO’s that expressed interest were welcomed to join. Two, of many familiar names who are on the list of “founding members” include Temple of Understanding, and Art of Living Foundation. Art of Living is directly connected to The Jerusalem Peace Academy as a Partner Organization.

CSVGC “formation” notice page:
List of Members and Officers/Founding Members/etc.
Jerusalem Peace Academy Partner Organization Page:

Other interested participants of CSVGC include:
Association of World Citizens
European Union
Green Cross International
Franciscans International
Bahai’I International Community

Founding Advisory Council Members include representatives from every dark Theosophical/Lucis Trust
corner we have,here so far, dared to explore. Just a small sample includes:

Findhorn Foundation
World Peace Prayer Society
Nancy Roof – Kosmos
Aquarian Age Community
The Lifebridge Foundation

Each of these are openly teaching and promoting the Alice Bailey/Lucis Trust/Theosophical teachings.

I realize this isn’t “new” information, however, I wanted to convey, by giving a peek behind the curtain, a glimpse of the true nature of the universal “Spirituality Values and Global Concerns” being promoted
through the UN. A clearer picture can be seen by simply examining the primary link for CSVGC –NY found here:

I will suggest those readers who would like further clarification and understanding of the vision and mission of CSVGC to read:

“A Brief Overview of the Spiritual History of the United Nations” from their site.

They make no apology for acknowledging the Aquarian Age Community

**** From a link on the
Aquarian Age Community Home Page you can read a paper Titled,


A notation at the end of the paper reads,

“Written in the early 1970s by Mr. Donald Keys, when he was a speechwriter for Secretary-General, U Thant and Founder/President of Planetary Citizens. Printed and distributed by the Aquarian Age Community with the kind permission of Mr. Keys”

It would take weeks to read through all the information from the AQUAAC site, but if you're curious, you won't be bored.


In examining the organizations and personalities found on the CSVGC site, I’ve found an additional, I think important link, to some of our own US political personalities and religious organizations. I’ll try and get some additional information up in the next few days. -Rudi

AntiChrist will begin to arise when he turns 30 in 2012. His father has partnered with the United Nations and the World Bank -all part of the 'new world order' he has made the way for his son. Maybe the end will be around 2033, 2000 after Jesus's death....
Mike @ 8:11,

"Well Eckert Tolle is on ABC News tonight (Sunday 15 Feb 09), the national feed, and he is being interviewed saying that Christians believe what we do because of our "ego"."

He is right in line with his friends at THE WORLD COMMISSION ON
including Ashok Gangadean

Egocentric religions have no place in the new world order.

Glad that it's been helpful. I'm conscious of the fact that what I say will make some people uncomfortable because I'm calling into question ideas that have been accepted for 1700 years. A lot of us today are discovering the Hebrew roots of the faith and observing God's instructions about food and participating in the Biblical feasts. This is not just in USA but worldwide. I met people from South Africa, China, etc. who were reading the Bible all by themselves and realized God was calling them to do this.

Personally, I think it has to do with the regathering of all Israel, and I don't just mean the Jews, I mean all of Israel, the Jews, the 10 scattered tribes and the nations who become like Ruth.

I'll write to you one of these days soon.
Excellent post. Nothing new under the sun is there.. It's just staggering to see the spiderweb of connections between all of these folks and how quickly this deception seems to be going mainstream, as per Alice Bailey.

When we think of who UN is, it is especially troubling to see the churches so easily attaching themselves to it. It's that idea that if somehow we are connect to something big we have significance and are "doing something". God really doesn't need this kind of "help".

Thanks for the encouragement Joyce,
and thank-you for all the links you've provided in your recent comments. So many interesting leads to follow up on and see where they take us.
I agree also with your observation
in your earlier comment:

"I don't think we've exhausted the research on Jerusalem academy or Academy of Jerusalem...lots of amazing links..."

We have barely scratched the surface of exploring and exposing the networking between the JPA and
the other strands of the web. -Rudi
It's good to know this blog is supporting the notion that the birthday of our Lord and the day that honors His resurection are now only "the very nasty pagan originated festivities of xmas and easter." Nifty piece of revisionism. Out with Christmas and Easter. In with ??? Maybe one of the Ascended Masters can tell us.

Let me address your comment:
"It's good to know this blog is supporting the notion that the birthday of our Lord and the day that honors His resurection are now only "the very nasty pagan originated festivities of xmas and easter.""

I don't think Constance said this, so it's unfair to say that "the website supports the notion". Personally, I try not to use the expression "pagan" because I have many dear friends who celebrate these things and sincerely intend to honor the Lord doing it, so I never criticize anyone that does. However, having said that, the revisionism happened in 325a.d. Yeshua's birthday was no 12-25 nor does His resurrection correspond with Easter, but rather with Passover, so one must ask the question where did the revisionism come from and why?

Constantine was not shy about saying "I don't want to associate with the Jews" so Passover was out of the question even though it was celebrated by believers in Yeshua many years after He died.

Certainly we know that Paul did:

1Cor. 5:7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our aPassover also has been sacrificed.
1Cor. 5:8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, anot with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

As for Christmas ( Christ's Mass).. There is never any indication that any of the Apostles celebrated such a holiday and we know that the Catholic Church took many pagan holidays an "christianized the". There is a fair amount of historical evidence that Christmas coincided with the feast of Saturnalia.

Christmas trees are pretty clearly described in this passage, and it seems like in Jeremiah's time God didn't like them, so not sure He would like them any better now:

Jer. 10:2-4 Thus says the LORD,
“aDo not learn the way of the nations,
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens Although the nations are terrified by them;
For the customs of the peoples are delusion; Because bit is wood cut from the forest,
The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool. “They decorate it with silver and with gold;
They fasten it with nails and with hammers
So that it will not totter.

Christmas corresponds with the winter solstice, speaking of New Age, but most people don't realize this history. It is much more probably for a number of reasons that Yeshua was born during the Feast of Sukkot, given a 40 week gestational period from the time of the announcement of her pregnancy. This can actually be calculated based on the tour of the high priest Zechariah, husband of Elizabeth, and then subsequent visit of Mary to her cousin.

The other aspect of Sukkot ( Feast of Tabernacles) is that it has to do with God "tabernacling" with us. There are other factors, such as the shepherd tending their sheep in the fields that most historians and theologians agree excludes the possibility of a December birth..

Now, having said all of this, there are some people who are aware of the historical origins of Christmas and think that you can "redeem" pagan things.. Personally, I don't see the redemptive value in Christmas. It just makes more sense to me to follow the feasts that the Lord said are His "appointments" Those can be found in Lev 23, but also in other places in the Bible if you are interested in learning about them.

I prefer not to use the expression "pagan" to describe the holidays that Constantine established, but rather focus on the blessing it is to celebrate the feasts of the Eternal that are Biblically and prophetically extremely meaningful. I think the evil one would not want us to learn about these because he prefers to keep us in the dark..about these things..but I don't believe Christians follow these feasts deliberately to participate in pagan feast days. If you study God's feasts in your Bible you will be greatly enriched and blessed.

There's a lot of emotions and family memory attached to Christmas and Easter, so I realize this keeps a lot of people from questioning them and God knows their hearts, so it's not my place to judge someone who has not learned about the Biblical feasts, but I am happy to share about them.


I haven't had time to look, and don't know if I will because I'll be tied up a lot for the next week and change, but HEB went to Ethiopia, which I find fascinating. What's interesting about Ethiopia is Haile Selassie's supposed ties to King Solomon. If I'm not mistaken, legend has it that he is a product of the union between King Solomon and Queen of Sheba.

There are Muslims, Christians and Jewish Ethiopians, many of whom have made aliyah ( means going up, but going up is always to Israel or Jerualem). It just seems interesting that he chose to focus on that. It's also interesting that in Israel, the Ethiopian Jews have more difficulty integrating.

The story of the Ethiopian eunuch indicates that he might well have been one of these descendants because when he ran into the Apostle Philip remember, he was reading Isaiah. I love this story:

Acts 8:26-39 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (1This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then athe Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.” The eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?” Then Philip aopened his mouth, and bbeginning from this Scripture he cpreached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! aWhat prevents me from being baptized?” [1And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]
And he ordered the 1chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water, athe Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

Wonder if HEB is a aware of this passage. He definitely reads the Apostolic Scriptures..

Depending on time and internet access, I want to look at this more. HEB also has a Wisdom Channel and Internet University that have not blossomed yet but are mentioned on the site.


This one I just found:

he was at the Mediterranean Peace Forum in Italy:
This is HUGE!!!!!

This will be one to take a closer look at.. The list of participants is nothing short of amazing.. This was about 1 week after the Mediterranean Union was formed.. Take a look at the participant list and save it..
There's a lot more on there, but want to focus your attention on HEB's participation in this:


Co-Presidents: Cardinal Di Giorgi and Mr Aly El-Samman
Moderator: Mr Philippe Saunier
Panelists: Mr Raouf Abu Jaber, Mr Hamid Al Rifaie, Mr Jean Marc Aveline, Mr Ghaleb Ben Cheikh,
Mr Eliyahu Benedikt Heinrich, Mr Shmuel Hadas, Mr Bernard Kanovitch, Mrs Mona Makram Ebeid,
Mr Mahmoud Massalha, Mr Mohamed M’Zali, Mr Ehsan Naraghi, Mr Yahya Pallavicini, Mr Jean Claude Petit,
Mr Mohamed Samak, Mr Angelo Sferrazza

This is EXACTLY what I've been talking about.
There is a also a member of HLG of AoC who is President of Anna Lindh Foundation, Andre Azoulay, Jewish advisor to King of Morocco, not to mention the who's who of the Middle East, North Africa and Europe.


Here's the trip of HEB's to Ethiopia:

Anon 5:25am and Joyce

I recently studied the origins of easter and Xmas and was completely revolted by the fact that the dying of easter eggs comes from dipping eggs into the blood of 3 month old infants sacrificed on the alters of (Baal) ancient Babylonia where a year earlier their virgin mothers were offered up to the priests to impregnate them.

I should have been more sensitive in my wording, but knowing this very vile and satanic custom is where we get the notion to dye eggs was one of the most disgusting things I've learned about the origins of our religious practices. I am still reeling from this and my post was in the passion of that revelation.

As always, Joyce does a kind and great job of answering with the love and peace found in the Messiah. I on the other hand do tend to be blunt, and often insult people, or stir them up, but my point is still valid.

The history goes that Nimrod who was the original one world government organized to oppose God, was himself worshipped as a god. When he died (not very god-like) his widow declared that he had ascended to the sun to become the sun-god (Baal)and had impregnated her by his rays. Her son was Tammuz. Tammuz died at the age of 40 after being gored by a wild boar. The ancient Babylonians would celebrate and commemorate Tammuz, also declared a god, by giving up one item they liked in their life so that Tammuz could have it in the afterlife. Tammuz died at age 40 so they did a day for a year, giving up something for 40 days and culminating in a feast in which they would kill the pig that killed Tammuz and have a feast.

Tammuz mother was believed to be a goddess, Ishtar, it was said that she came from the heavens in a giant egg, landing in the river Euphrates, hatching and turned a rabbit into an egg laying bunny to prove her divinity. Virgins were given to the priests of Babylon and impregnated upon the alters of Baal and their 3 month old infants were then sacrificed a year later and eggs were dyed in their blood as part of the commemoration. This is easter.

Most of the traditional Christians I know celebrate it and say it is for the glory of God. They take anything that is pagan and slap a Christian bumper sticker on it and call it acceptable. If we really try to know God, we know this is unacceptable. He was very clear on anything that was even slightly tainted with false deity.

I can no longer continue in these very offensive customs knowing where they originated. It is for others to understand the true meanings and choose for themselves. But if no one knows, but only believes the lies we have inherited from our fathers, then how can any of us even begin to clear the fog, to truly walk in the ways of Yahshuah (Jesus)?

The most obvious point is if you are a true follower of Yahshuah (Jesus) the Messiah you have to believe these things to be true

1) that Yahshuah was Jewish
2) that for Him to be the Messiah He was without sin, not one, ever.
3) Sin was defined by the law - this was the law given to the Israelites by YaHWeH himself
4) What Testament was Jesus living by? What scriptures were being taught in the synagogues? Of course The Old, because the New wasn't written yet.

From there we can, we have to conclude, that Yahshuah, (Jesus) lived by EVERY SINGLE ONE of the laws set forth in the Jewish scriptures.

Therefore, Jesus never touched a piece of pork a day in his life and yet, we have on the two biggest days that are supposed to celebrate our very Jewish Messiah, that the number one food eaten is.....HAM! Who do you think thought that one up?!

Sometimes it's so obvious we miss it. I did, for a long time. Now I'm trying to see it, to have the scales lifted from my eyes and the wax removed from my ears and my heart. Everyone else has to come to that place on their own. I'm sorry I'm offensive, that I don't often say things in a loving way, that probably doesn't best serve Him - truly Yahshuah has more work to be done with me. I apologize for being so blunt; hopefully I will get better with His grace, but I'm trying to make a point and I think the time is long gone for the whip cream and cherry on top version. (Not that that's what you give Joyce - but this is what the world gives - the leaven.)


I'm sure there are a lot of writings on the origins of easter, but clearly no one can deny its paganism mingled with Christianity.

The feasts of YHWH show us to perfection the plan of salvation and timeline of the Messiah's life. God is not random, He does things to an exacting degree, and it would only make sense and is indeed fact, that the events in Yahshuah's (Jesus) life were completely connected to and shadowed in the feasts of The LORD. The Jewish calendar is lunar, ours is not. The calendars and years have even been smudged and changed over time. God's time has not; He is the same today, yesterday and forever.

Also, if we as people and a society, indeed, the whole world, will go to the trouble to observe a holiday that is based on false pretenses, why would it be a trouble to observe a holiday set in stone by The Almighty?

Ask someone to go into debt for Xmas - no problem. Buy gifts for people whose names they don't even know, the bus driver, the mailman, the UPS guy - no problem. Spend hours decorating, baking, cooking, shopping, cleaning - no problem. Cook and eat special and specific holiday foods - no problem. Concoct extravagant and intricate webs (worldwide) of lies and trickery to fool the kids into believing it's a rotund old man in a red suit that's keeping an ever judgeful or rewarding eye on them - no problem. But tell a person that from nearly the beginning of man God Himself set apart holidays, or feasts for us to celebrate and keep, and people start exploding like eggs in a microwave. Now that seems to be a problem.


I am off to some meetings so I don't have time to respond to you right now, but I will if you can give me a little time.

I can be blunt too, but I've just come to understand that the Abba works in different people's lives on a different schedule...and I'll leave it at that for now, but I will be in touch..on your email.

Blessings in Yeshua,

I find your representation that Easter is nothing more than eggs and ham puzzling. The Ressurection is the central event of Christianity. Without Jesus of Nazareth rising from the dead, death remains death forever. To not honor the Ressurection is to not find life in Christ. If you find Easter to be nothing more than child's play based on some esoteric ancient practice, I feel truly sorry for you. I do not need nor employ eggs and ham to celebrate the Lord, but like many, find Easter to be a day to celebrate the completely undeserved gift of salvation.

The Incarnation (Word made flesh) is the most humility inducing dogma in Christianity. Why would God choose to abase himself with becoming human in nature, a gift beyond imagination? I believe because like any loving parent, Abba Father would do anything to restore life to his children, including being born in a manger and dying a horrible death on the Cross to restore us. Is that not what Christmas is?

Are you throwing the baby out with th bath water when you deny these days?
This blog gives you a bully pupit to promote your negation of central Christian tenets. So be it.
To Anonymous (2:08):


I could not have expessed my thoughts on this any better.
"Green eggs and ham"??? Hmmmmmm.

Well, if Susette want to turn Christianity into a Dr. Suess cartoon by mocking Easter and Christmas . . . she's the one who has to face Jesus some day and explain.

I'll be praying for you, Susette.
Anon 2:08, 2:17 & 2:23

I am not saying that I deny the Life, Death and Resurrection of our only Savior Jesus, Yahshuah. I am not saying I cannot and will not celebrate or commemorate these events. But I will remove as much as possible the pagan practices that have undeniably been mixed in with the true appointed feasts as set by Our Heavenly Father.

Did any of you look into the origins of the currently practiced forms of easter and Xmas? If your expert research skills can find any other explanation for the customs we follow these days, if you can show that there were no pagan sun-gods whose birthdays were on Dec. 25th, if you can find the origin of the easter egg, easter bunny and all the rest, PLEASE inform me. I've got a mountain of beautiful decorations that will hit the garbage heap and a family that will be sorely deprived if you can't. I'd love to find that all these customs are based on something to do with Abba Father or Jesus Christ the Son. Do you think it is easy to give up such things? I am not giving up the celebration of my Savior; I am giving up the WORLD'S definition of HOW I should celebrate and WHEN I should celebrate, and basing it on THE BIBLE, THE WORD, as laid out long ago, before we had all these practices.

You think by not putting up a xmas tree I deny Christ? Or by not giving my kids baskets full of chocolate bunnies I am denying the resurrection of Jesus?

On the contrary, by taking away the very commercialized, over-marketed, distractions to the true events and meaning, I and my family will find a deeper and greater appreciation for the miracle of The Savior's life.

If you could say that when you put up a xmas tree, "I put up this tree because Mary and Joseph had to flee through a forest of pine trees when they had to run for their lives." Or, "I put these bobbles on the tree to remember the earrings that dangled from Mary's ears as she rode the donkey into Bethlehem." Or, "I give the latest fad toy to my kids because of the 3 wise men that brought the gifts to the toddler Jesus at his home a few years after his birth." or even "I perpetuate the lie about Santa because my kids are more afraid of his approval than they are of God's", maybe I could agree with and participate in the modern day worship of all that is easter and xmas. But what of these customs originated with, points to or promotes Yahshuah the Messiah?

How many of us have gone through the motions of all these things, assuming they meant something, but never knowing and never asking?

I am not ending my celebration of the Birth, Life, Death and Resurrection of The Savior, Yahshuah, (Jesus). I'm trying to point out that God The Father already told us how to celebrate these, and when, and most of us weren't or aren't doing it. I believe it's a personal choice, but we ought to have the whole truth to make that choice. I don't have it all, and neither does anybody else (except God and Jesus), but we should at least be looking.

And please keep praying for me, this is certainly a difficult and lonely road to travel. Pray that I only find truth and share truth, that I stay humble, that I act in love and not self-righteousness, those are needed prayers and I can use all I can get.

And Anon 2:23 my name is spelled with a z not an s, but maybe your powers of observation and knowledge are better than mine and I should change it?

Dear Suzette,
I understand the questions of conscience that you have spoken of here regarding the traditions and trimmings used to celebrate the birth of our Lord and the resurrection of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
Paul's letter to the Church in Corinth has been a precious guideline, for me, when it comes to making decisions regarding family traditions that we participate in throughout the year to celebrate the holidays.
I Corinthians 10:23, "'Everything is permissible'- but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible'- but not everything is constructive.", and vs. 25 & 26,"Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for the 'Earth is the Lord's and everything in it.', continuing with vs. 27-31, "If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, 'This meat has been offered in sacrifice', then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake- the other man's conscience, I mean, not your's. For why should my freedom be judged by another man's conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced for something I thank God for? So whether you eat or drink, or WHATEVER you do, do it all for the glory of God."
I can't change the fact that satan has deceived many throughout the centuries into worshipping God's creation rather than the Creator, nor can I change the fact that there are many who will choose to create idols for themselves and present a filthy, evil sacrifice to these idols. I can only pray for people who practice such things, and present a Christ-like example of worshipping the Holy of Holies, the Lord God Almighty.
If I believe that the presentation of a tree with family ornaments, passed down from generation to generation, which hang on it each year could cause a guest in my home to stumble because THEY worship trees, then I gladly leave the tree in it's box in order to better serve the Lord. Our Christmas holiday is centered completely on the celebration of the birth of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. We do not worship trees, nor do we worship any objects that reflect the holiday in any way. Even if we changed the times and seasons in order to separate ourselves from the world, we still would not worship anything or anyone other than God. In our family we refer to "Easter" as Resurrection Sunday. At times we have colored eggs and grabbed baskets to go hunting for them in the back yard. But, we worship the resurrection of Jesus alone.
I can support your concern that we, as Christians, should take the time to consider carefully the matter of implementing traditions that we incorporate into our worship during these holidays.
But as Paul states plainly, "The Earth is the Lord's and everything in it."
A tree is a tree, eggs are eggs and they are the Lord's.

By His Grace,
To Suzette (4:16 PM):

Obviously, it was just the way you expressed yourself (rather than what was in your heart) that may need some "tweaking" on future postings in order to avoid further misunderstandings on this blog.

May God bless you . . . and yes, we all need to pray for each other.

weather I agree with you are not is not the point of this comment. The point is that I have come to notice a few things about this blog. One is that anyone who expresses their conviction or ideals will be mocked. some people will turn on you if they disagree with you. Even if your intention is good... they will run you down for it. This is the same way a bully will pick on smaller kids. So, don't be surprised if people make fun of you about your convictions.

The following is from a Lutheran commentary on Jeremiah 10.

...The verses that the concerned readers repeatedly cite are 10:2-4: "Do not learn the ways of the nations . . . For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter." "Aha!" these readers say. "Jeremiah is talking about the Christmas tree!" But closer examination reveals that he certainly is not!

First, there is the immediate context of this passage. The very next verse, 10:5, goes on to say, "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." This passage and the passages that follow make it crystal clear that the "decorated tree" that Jeremiah was talking about in 10:3-4, was a tree that was cut down and made into an idol, a very common custom in the ancient world. 10:8-10 also confirms this, where the wooden idols are contrasted with the LORD, who is the true and living God. Keil and Delitsch, the well-respected Old Testament commentary, confirms this interpretation that the trees in question were idols that were then worshiped (C. F. Keil and F. Delitsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, "Jeremiah, Lamentations," vol 8 (Grand Rapids: William B. Eeerdmans Publishing Company, 1980), 196-199).......

.......Isaiah 44:14-19 gives a detailed picture of how a tree was cut down and fashioned into an idol - and the absurdity of it all.....

....From the foregoing, it is abundantly clear that the "decorated tree" to which Jeremiah 10 refers is an idol, very likely the Asherah. Therefore, it is very superficial Bible interpretation and pure silliness to understand this passage as directly referring to the use of a fir tree for Christmas! If, and I repeat, if those who set up a Christmas tree fall down and worship it as a god or goddess, complete with altars and incense stands, then Jeremiah 10 applies here. Or if someone loves their Christmas tree more than God, then such a thing might also be considered spiritual idolatry. But apart from these exceptions, I think it is abundantly clear that Christians who erect Christmas trees are NOT worshiping them as gods or goddesses, nor are they loving them more than their Savior Jesus Christ. They are simply using the Christmas tree as a fun custom, one that can remind them of Jesus who is the branch of David (Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15), the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1). One that can remind them of the tree that led Adam and Eve to sin, but more importantly, the tree on which Christ Jesus died to make atonement for the sins of the whole world (Acts 5:30; Gal. 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24).....

.....Christians should know that they can use a Christmas tree with a good conscience. It is unfortunate and wrong when well-meaning Christians call something sin that is not sin, and enslave the consciences of their fellow believers with imaginary sin! Shame on such Christians! Those who continue to believe that the Christmas tree is pagan and sinful, even after having their conscience correctly informed, should not use them. For it is not right to sin against conscience. This is regrettable, however, since there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a Christmas tree........ entire article

Anonymous 2:08 and SV

Good posts!
Memorizing scripture is very important considering the scope of the giant governmental censoring hand. Here is a site that has an excellent approach to memorizing the Bible:
Dear Susanna,
Brilliant post! I couldn't have stated it better myself! :-)
By His Grace,
Again, we can "christianize" anything that we want and find reasons for why it reminds of Yeshua, but God left us His calendar which has prophetic significance and the sad thing about this being disguised by man's customs which is the same thing Jeremiah speaks of is we miss the plan of God.

From the creation, God ceased the 7th day, Shabbat. The millennial reign of Yeshua will be a "shabbat" rest. We will dwell with Him forever. Shabbat is the first time in Genesis where it doesn't say there was night and day the 7th day because it goes on forever.

Gen. 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all atheir hosts. By athe seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

God set it apart, it is holy, therefore if we honor it, He will meet with us. All the other mo'ed's are rendezvous with Him. He says if we show up, He will meet us there.

If we read the text of Scripture and begin to understand this we will begin walking in these truths as Suzette as done. When you taste the real thing you no longer want a substitute.

All of the feasts of Lev 23 are about Him, and one day soon, He is going to reign from Jerusalem, but do we understand the significance of all that He has revealed about Himself in the Scriptures? If we do we will be watching and seeing what's going on as we walk with Him.

Luther made some reforms but I would not hold him up as the be all and end all. At the end of his life he turn on the Jews, which does not endear him to me, although I recognize that he began a process of questioning the status quo.

As for the Christmas tree talking about the tree that Yeshua was hung on,...why would we want to take such a tree and decorate it with balls and lights and make it into something festive? Yeshua suffered on the tree, but I don't think we want to hold the tree up as some kind of idol. Yeshua is the tree of life, so He's the one we want to focus on.

I prefer to focus on the the idea of "tabernacling with Him" which is the way He revealed Himself to us, not the things that we make up about Him which actually "put another face on Him".

The command says to "not have other gods before Me" but means "do not put other gods on my face". another words, if we make a golden calf and call it YHVH, that doesn't make it YHVH. It's a golden calf and you know what happened to Israel for golden calf worship, even though they called it YHVH.

Go back and read the story carefully and you will see.

Ex. 32:8 -10“They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. aThey have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and bhave sacrificed to it and said, ‘1cThis is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” aThe LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are 1ban obstinate people. “Now then alet Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and bI will make of you a great nation.”

Do we know Him as He reveals Himself? I think this is more the point..

What happened with the post on
"Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council
amending Regulation (EC) No 808/2004 concerning Community
statistics on the information society"
and the oldthinkernews article on IOT
I too am puzzled. I couldn't get the link to work about the US might be onboard with the integrated internet- a problem with Acrobat reader or something- so I went to the public library, and now I can't even find the link to try it from here. Hm, it's enough to make on paranoid.

You have a heart of obedience toward Yahushua our Savior.

Any time you take a stance for truth, you will awaken the religious, and they will pontificate with long appeals to reason.

May Abba bless, and keep you, and may His face shine upon you always.

Since everything belongs to God in the first place, what you call the "Christianizing" of things simply involves returning things to their rightful owner. Of course the Bible teaches us that if something like meat sacrificed to idols or a Christmas tree is going to cause scandal, confuse people and/or lead someone to sin, then we shouldn't use it.

But I don't know of any people in my circle of family and friends and aquaintances who associate things like Christmas trees or Easter eggs with idol worship - except, perhaps, for you.

This is what that Lutheran author meant in saying how wrong it was to try to "enslave peoples' consciences" - the way you are trying to do.

With all due respect, your view of "how God reveals Himself" is just that. Your view. And the Bible clearly states "First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation," 2 Peter 1:20 And here the word "prophecy" is taken to mean ALL of divine revelation and not just that portion of divine revelation that involves the future.

There is also nothing in the Sacred Scriptures to indicate either that the Scriptures are to be interpreted literally or that the Scriptures interpret themselves.

There is nothing in the Bible that clearly indicates that the "Bible only" is to be the Christian Rule of Faith.

This is why I have no intention of reading the Bible the way you read it. Your interpretations of the Bible are un-Biblical BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS.

I am not saying this to be mean, but you can quote Scripture until the cows come home, but there is nothing in the New Testament of the Sacred Scriptures that supports the return to ancient Hebrew calendars, customs and festivals. In fact, just the opposite is the case.

If you are arguing against St. Paul,(a.k.a. "the apostle to the gentiles") then you are sawing off the branch upon which you are sitting in so far as you are arguing against the Bible itself - which you claim as your "only authority."

If the Old Testament is your only authority (AND THAT SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY TESTAMENT YOU QUOTE WHILE PAYING LIP SERVICE TO THE NEW TESTAMENT) then your "Christianity" is suspect.

What you appear to be doing is bringing your own little set of opinions and beliefs - or those of your religious leaders who are equally in error - to the Scriptures READY MADE and then reading those beliefs INTO the Scriptures while rejecting the authority of the Apostles who received the New Testament divine Revelation directly from Christ.

Moreover, not even Martin Luther or Calvin would have dared tamper with the New Testament however much certain Books failed to square with their private opinions. How dare you?

Why don't you go back and read this
passage of the Scriptures from the Acts of the Apostles about the Council of Jerusalem:

Acts Chapter 15:1-33

1 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved."

2 Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.\

3 They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.

4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them.

5 But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law."

6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.

7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.

9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?

11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they."

12 The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.

13 After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me."

14 Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name.

15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written:

16 'After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again,

17 so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things,

18 known from of old.'

19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,

20 but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood.

21 For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every sabbath."

22 Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.

23 This is the letter delivered by them: "The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,

25 we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth:

28 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities,

29 namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.'"

30 And so they were sent on their journey. Upon their arrival in Antioch they called the assembly together and delivered the letter.

31 When the people read it, they were delighted with the exhortation.

32 Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, exhorted and strengthened the brothers with many words.

33 After they had spent some time there, they were sent off with greetings of peace from the brothers to those who had commissioned them.

Also, there is another passage in which Peter is doubtful about whether to baptize the pagan Cornelius. He received his answer from God in a dream:

9 And on the next day, whilst they were going on their journey and drawing nigh to the city, Peter went up to the higher parts of the house to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And being hungry, he was desirous to taste somewhat. And as they were preparing, there came upon him an ecstasy of mind. 11 And he saw the heaven opened and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of four-footed beasts and creeping things of the earth and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter. Kill and eat. 14 But Peter said: Far be it from me. For I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. 15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. 16 And this was done thrice. And presently the vessel was taken up into heaven. 17 Now, whilst Peter was doubting within himself what the vision that he had seen should mean, behold the men who were sent from Cornelius, inquiring for Simon's house, stood at the gate. 18 And when they had called, they asked if Simon, who is surnamed Peter, were lodged there. 19 And as Peter was thinking of the vision, the Spirit said to him: Behold three men seek thee. 20 Arise, therefore: get thee down and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. 21 Then Peter, going down to the men, said: Behold, I am he whom you seek. What is the cause for which you are come? 22 Who said: Cornelius, a centurion, a just man and one that feareth God, and having good testimony from all the nation of the Jews, received an answer of an holy angel, to send for thee into his house And to hear words of thee. 23 Then bringing them in, he lodged them. And the day following, he arose and went with them: and some of the brethren from Joppe accompanied him.

This can be applied to what St. Paul said "Test ALL things. Hold fast what is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Now I am NOT citing Sacred Tradition here as my authority. I am citing the BIBLE ONLY! And you don't have to be a Bible scholar to understand the plain meaning of the passages I quoted either.

If you reject the Acts of the Apostles, or 1 and 2 Peter or the Pauline Epistles which are ALL canonical Books of the Bible by Catholic, Orthodox AND Protestant standards, then you are rejecting the authority of the Bible itself -and most importantly of Christ Himself.
Dear Joyce,
You speak constantly, but your ears seldom take the time to listen to others.
No one here is worshipping the Christmas tree.
If it is shaved down, shaped, coated with a precious metal and called a god, you have a wonderful Scriptural stance against such an abomination.
I'd speak further regarding this matter, but I have no confidence that you will bother to listen.
So do accordingly as your conscience allows, and I will continue to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit accordingly in every spiritual matter.
By His Grace,
Hi Constance, This is tony in vermont. Listen i'm kinda inexperienced at typing on this keypad-allways fumbling round one finger at a time-slow movin' so i deceided to send you some smoke signals. Be on the watch. Its about Geronimo and the article on 51 reasons to say no to global governance-website.Them skull/bones people are wierd.
I am aware of the fact that well meaning Christians want to honor Yeshua/Jesus at Christmas. I don't think you read my ealier post.

A careful reading of the texts in the Scriptures will show us that God has sacred times for us to meet with Him, and sadly the people that don't take time to study this will miss His prophetic plan and will not be walking in what HE GAVE us. You can discover for yourself if you want to study the Word, or you can argue with me about Christmas trees. I'm not trying to offend anyone who does that. I'm just saying look at some of the riches you are missing out on.. If you don't want to look you are perfectly free to not...I'm just trying to open up what Scripture says..

Christmas trees and all the other distractions of our man-made holidays obscure what God actually gave us, even though people have good intentions.

If you are not walking in God's sacred calendar, you will have a hard time seeing what He's doing.

You are convinced that the Catholic Church and their traditions are the guardians of truth, so I don't know what I can say, but I would ask you to reflect on one question. If they are keepers of truth, why is there so much confusion?

If either of you want to examine the Scriptures, you will see that what we celebrate today bears absolutely no resemblance to the faith that Yeshua's disciples walked out and that should cause us all to stand up and take notice, especially in this late hour..

....and God does not change..


It appears that you are relying on the Jewish law TO BE SAVED or at least GAIN BROWNIE POINTS WITH GOD. You'd better keep every jot and tittle -- but even the apostles couldn't do that -- I think you are under cult-like bondage.

Re:A careful reading of the texts in the Scriptures will show us that God has sacred times for us to meet with Him, and sadly the people that don't take time to study this will miss His prophetic plan and will not be walking in what HE GAVE us. You can discover for yourself if you want to study the Word, or you can argue with me about Christmas trees.

When you say "careful reading of the texts in the Scriptures," are you referring to the Old Testament, the New Testament or both?

You talk about "missing His prophetic plan." According to WHOSE interpretation? Again, the Scriptures do not interpret themselves.

I AM walking in what Jesus Christ gave us.....according to the New Testament. This is what the debate is REALLY about....not Christmas trees.

The Old Testament does NOT trump the New Testament. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament and does NOT mandate our returning to all of the traditions of the Old Law of
Fear now that we have come under the new Law of Love in Jesus Christ.

As for as my being convinced that my rule of faith is the real deal, the reason why there is nothing you can say is because you have not yet been able to quote me the passage in the Bible where it clearly states that the "Bible only" is to be the Christian Rule of Faith.

When you couldn't quote me the passage ( because no such passage exists)you said that I shouldn't expect it to be in those "exact words".....and yet you reject the Trinity because the exact word "Trinity" isn't found in the Bible.

I am simply holding you to what you claim to be your own standard.

As for confusion, there seems to be a lot more confusion in your religious organization and its traditions than there is in mine.
Dear Joyce,
You said-
"If you are not walking in God's sacred calendar, you will have a hard time seeing what He's doing."

and this-
"If either of you want to examine the Scriptures..."

Thanks for making my point for me. God also states clearly in Proverbs 16:18-21:
"Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall. Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the Lord. The wise in heart are called discerning, and pleasant words promote instruction."
Why do you allow your words to be so condescending? I've studied or "examined" the Word of God my entire life. I realize that I will continue to study His Word until He calls me home, and I will never absorb the full message of His entire Scriptures cover to cover. But, I've been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and I endeavor to please the Lord every day of my humble life. I will be held in account for every foolish thing I've said or done in this life, and so will you.
God didn't even give each prophet of Israel the full understanding of His complete plan for all of history from beginning to end, lest they should become puffed up.
Are you telling me that God has made a special exception in your case? Has He given you full and complete understanding of each and every plan, the entire calendar of time, that He has made and recorded in His Word? What an amazing gift, indeed.

"Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil. When a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him." -Proverbs 16:6,7

It is my sincere hope that instead of using continuous prideful words to communicate your point, you will make your ways so pleasing unto the Lord, that you make even your "enemies" at peace with you.

By His Grace,

I'm sorry that you feel giving insight to the Word of God is prideful.. Since I'm secure in who I am in Messiah, if He shows me something I like to share it for those who are interested. If you are not, feel free to pass over what I share.. There are people who like to learn about these things and while they may only be a few, I'm happy to share with them.

Judge not lest you will be judged is another Bible we can all quote Scripture but Abba alone knows what's in our minds and hearts.

The feasts of the Eternal are not "Jewish" they are the Lord's and are for Israel as well as the stranger who dwells with Israel. Some just don't want to be part of the olive tree...All of Israel is not Jewish, only 2 1/2 tribes are technically "Jewish". Israel always had foreigners attached to it and still does.

Dear Joyce,
I speak plain facts, I do not waste time with double-talk.
If your words are interpreted as "prideful" the correct Biblical response is to apologize and seek to restore the peace with a sister in the Lord.
Sharing insight of God's Word can be done with lovingkindness; it does not require a haughty spirit.

By His Grace,

I don't have time to answer your long posts right now, but all of Scripture is God breathed and useful for rebuking, reproving and training in righteouness, says the apostle Paul, so I don't make the artificial separation of "Old Testment" and "New Testament".

There is a renewed covenant with Israel, Jer 31:31-33. The problem is that some think God has stopped dealing with Israel, and He never has.. remember, I am speaking of ALL Israel, the Jews, the Northern tribes scatter in the Nations and the Nations themselves who are grafted into the olive tree.

When you can see this major theme running throughout the will necessarily affect the way you view the rest of Scripture. Your starting point is Catholic doctrine and mine is the Word. I start with the Word of God..and I've have already given you a lot of Scriptures that tell us to not turn left or right, but heed God's Word.. starting in the Garden when the snake asked "Did God really say? " There's many different ways to ask this question, but throwing the Word of God into question is never a good thing and there are numerous examples of it in Scripture.

The history of my people, Israel is filled with examples of not obeying or disregarding God's Word and putting their own ideas above God's.

As a nation, we have been chastised severely for this.

Have not forgotten about you.
I'm just super busy at the moment.
p.s. it's not a question of brownie points. Obeying God isn't something you do to gain brownie points but when you are in relationship, you want to listen to His voice..i.e. Hear and Obey. We are saved 100% by grace.


Re:but all of Scripture is God breathed and useful for rebuking, reproving and training in righteouness, says the apostle Paul,

Ahhh! the classic "proof text" for "Sola Scriptura."

While this is partly true, this passage from 2 Timothy 3:16-17doesn't say that ONLY the Scripture is useful for rebuking reproving and training in righteousness.

Paul also says in 1 Thess 2:13...

"When you received the word of God which you HEARD from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God" (1 Thess. 2:13).


"Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

The Apostle Paul is PRECISELY the Apostle who, at the Council of Jerusalem, challenged those who would impose Old Testament Jewish customs on the gentiles.

Ergo, your starting point is not only erroneous with regard to the New Testament Pauline teaching, but it is also YOUR own private interpretation of those selectively quoted portions of the Word that square with your own ready made opinions - or the ready made opinions of the leaders of your religious organization.

You don't seem to understand that Sacred Traditon for me includes those who decided which books were to be included in the Canon - the same one I am assuming you use by the way - unless, of course, you or the leaders of your religious organization have rewritten the New Testament Scriptures like certain other groups have done.

I don't see any "major theme" in the New Testament that mandates a return to the precepts 0f the Old Law except for believing in and loving God with our whole minds, hearts and souls and obeying the Ten Commandments.

As for what you claim is an "artificial division" between Judaism and Christianity, let me say that I believe that there is but ONE Covenant. As a Christian, I believe that the Old Testament is the unfulfilled phase of that one Covenant while the New Testament is the phase of the same one Covenant that has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

You decry "traditions," but in so far as the New Testament does not mandate a return to Old Testament Traditions, the decision to do so on the part of certain factions of Messianic Judaism is itself a "man made tradition," and a relatively new one at that - emerging as it did in the 1960's out of the Hebrew Christian Movement which was founded in England in the 19th century.......

Oh, and by the way, where is the exact term "Messianic Judaism" to be found in the Bible? If my belief in the Trinity is "invalid" on the grounds that the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, then so is your belief in "Messianic Judaism" on those same grounds.

So after lecturing us on such required Scriptural "precision" when it comes to essential Christian beliefs such as the Trinity, etc., don't start talking to me about some vague amorphous "pattern" that is supposed to emerge if I am reading Scriptures the way you prescribe.

We Catholics believe Sacred Tradition can be concretely and historically traced back to Peter and the Apostles, and that the New Testament account of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15:1-33 explicitly freed Christians from following the customs of the Old Law......especially Acts 15:28-29.

28 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities,

29 namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.'"

Your "tradition" on the other hand is neither Biblical - at least in terms of the New Testament - nor ancient.

I have quoted many verses to you about the Word of God, not only that one. There is nothing wrong with traditions, but the "sacred traditions" especially those that invalidate the Word of God are highly problematic. We all have traditions we follow but if they destroy what the Word of God says, then we should not follow them. I have never said Messianic Judaism is a word used in the Bible nor do I particularly use that Word to describe myself. I am simply a Jew, who has found my Messiah.

Now as for the Acts council, I always find it interesting that people stop quoting the verse where they do instead of quoting it in its entire context. Here's the rest of what James said:

Acts 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from 1athings contaminated by idols and from bfornication and from is strangled and from blood.
Acts 15:21 “For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The initial requirements were just so that they could come into fellowship with the Jewish believers otherwise it would be very hard. They actually describe the food laws and the sexual purity laws of Leviticus not to mention laws about idolatry ( pig for example would not be considered as food by these men) . The Apostles were not going to require any more than this for initial fellowship, but what would happen is the new believers would go to the synagogues and hear Moses, which was the only available Scripture at that time ( plus the rest of Tanach) and guess what?

The Torah was filled with instructions. Since they were going to hear it on Shabbat, that would suggest already that Shabbat was not cancelled, and thus they would learn about the other mo'ed in Leviticus 23 and follow this with all Israel.

The Catholic Church officially cut the believers off from all of this in 325 a.d. although there were men who earlier had distanced themselves from Israel and the instructions God had given to Israel.

The Catholic Church created a whole new religion. The New Covenant was with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, and was actually a renewal of the previous covenant ( not a testament which is what a dead person has) It was what God had already given only this time, He was going to place it on our minds(leb). Yeshua modeled how this was to be lived out, as in His sermon on the Mount where He says , "it was said....but I say...." indicating that as these instructions are on our heart we observe them.

In the Garden we were given the gospel and when you understand who we are in Him and where we are seated and what Yeshua has actually done for us, you have an assurance of your new identity.

I grew up in Catholicism and know the difference between what I was taught and what it is to be in the Word and let it speak rather than accepting religious dogmas. All I can say to you from my personal experience ( and that of many others) that you are missing out on riches and blessings.

You will not be convinced by my words but maybe one day God will lead you to that conclusion yourself?

In speaking to my people, Israel, God said this:

Deut. 4:28-29 “There you will serve gods, the work of man’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. “But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

This is what happened in my life, and it is very different from what I learned as a Catholic growing up. I entered into face to face relationship with my
Father. I don't go through an intermediary. I go directly to His throne because the spiritual reality as it says in Ephesians:

ph. 2:4 But God, being arich in mercy, because of bHis great love with which He loved us,
Eph. 2:5 even when we were adead 1in our transgressions, made us alive together 2with Christ (bby grace you have been saved),
Eph. 2:6 and araised us up with Him, and bseated us with Him in cthe heavenly places in dChrist Jesus,
Eph. 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing ariches of His grace in bkindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Gotta run,
Thurs Feb 19

SV, 6:19pm
Thank you for pointing out that passage in Corinthians. I really believe I have to give up my former common religious practices but the unclean food laws are difficult. I have previously read Romans 14 and that is precisely about eating meat and can be interpreted as giving us a choice. I have also heard that it may pertain only to the idea of eating meat, and not whether or not it was clean or unclean. It is obviously a difficult topic.

This is a tough line to draw, saved by grace, but wanting to do the will of The Father. It puzzles me that some people will say that Yahshuah is their example but there are so many things that He never would have done that we call acceptable.

The New Testament is full of scriptures that seem to say that there is a new set of laws to live by, a simpler, kinder version. I find this confusing. It's my understanding that God's Word is eternal. Him going back on His word would be like the universe imploding, it's what we stand on, it's the reason we believe, it's the reason we count on Him, the reason we won't let go of our faith – because His Word is true, forever. Is there change in the Old Testament laws to the New Testament that would indicate God changing? If the laws changed, did God change? If not, then what did? These are hard things to narrow down.

Anon 6:27pm
Yes, I need tweaking, and in some places it’s more than a tweaking, it’s a complete overhaul! Thankfully Elohim is faithful to complete the work He starts in us.

Anon 9:03pm
This is actually a wonderful time of testimony for me. Because of things in my childhood, I have for all my life, had rejection issues. I was the classic definition of a "people pleaser". I do not like to be attacked or to hurt others, but thanks to the work of The Lord in my life, I no longer fall apart like a two dollar suitcase when my beliefs or ideas or myself are not met with eager enthusiasm. This is one of the miracles of a relationship with Yahshuah, and it's a wonderful area to grow in.

Shem 1777 11:53am
Thank you for your wonderful and encouraging words and your blessings, I hope you can know how much it touches me.

May Elohim and Yahshuah bless you the same many times over.

Susanna 12:43pm
You wrote:
"First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation," 2 Peter 1:20

There is also nothing in the Sacred Scriptures to indicate either that the Scriptures are to be interpreted literally or that the Scriptures interpret themselves.

Can I ask if (and I agree with 2 Peter 1:20) scriptures are not a matter of our own interpretation, they are not to be interpreted literally and they do not interpret themselves, by what method can /should we interpret them? What option is left?

Also, you brought out a great point of the story of Acts with the Jerusalem Council. What do you take these four “commandments” to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, illicit sex, things strangled and blood to mean? This came up last year during a study of Acts at church and there were only two of us who understood the blood portion to mean that animals are to be properly bled, blood is not to be consumed in any form and therefore blood transfusions and blood products would also be forbidden. This is not a commonly held belief by many Christians but I am wondering if these are the major commandments to follow, what is the meaning of abstaining from blood? Most people just skip over this part as if it isn’t there, but I am curious as to how others view this.
Their decision is repeated several times just in the book of Acts, I am unsure if it occurs anywhere else in the NT but these prohibitions come from OT law. It must be very important to follow these four things if they are repeatedly cited and found in both Testaments. And no one seems to have a description of what abstention from blood is.

I’m patient. It’s very busy for me as well, as you can tell, since I am just now getting back to the blog. I am learning the calendar and find it fascinating. I’m even picking up Hebrew words, which I never thought would happen, but really wanted to learn for a better understanding of scripture and the culture of the Biblical times. It’s very exciting. Things just seem to be opening up. I don’t want to come off prideful, or self-aggrandizing, it’s just been such an awesome experience these last few weeks. For the first time in my decades as a Christian, I feel set apart. I am beginning to understand why it was that Elohim had the Israelites follow so many different laws and practices, He had to make them seem different than the world, He had to show that they were different; He had to make a clear distinction between who was His and who wasn’t. I’m finally getting it.
Andrew Wommack says something like this “If you were on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?” For a long time I don’t know that there was.
Also, in terms of the calendar, the other day I got to wondering about Genesis 2:2 (ASV) And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
I think this pertains to the Shabbat millennial reign. But I’m not sure of the translation; maybe the word finished here is incorrect?

Shalom Suzette,

Just a quick comment but I will get to you and respond personally. Shabbat means to cease. In the Wilderness God taught Ancient Israel how to walk in dependance on Him, but having them collect a double portion of the mannah ( the bread of life) on the sixth day, so that the seventh day they could cease. By ceasing they were to learn to rest in dependance on Him and His provision. The Wilderness was like being in school. Besides that Shabbat of course is all about Yeshua. People think because He died they should stop observing, but the reality is if we observe it, we will take the 7th day to sit and hear His voice without the other distractions of life. Shabbat is a delight, not a burden.

Is. 58:13 ¶ “If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,
Is. 58:14 Then you will take delight in the LORD,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

This is as true for us today as it was in Isaiah's day. It is also a holy convocation, so we should gather on Shabbat as the Apostles and Yeshua did. The idea of ceasing is resting in HIS finished work. WE as believers in the newer or renewed convent celebrate Shabbat always with the perspective of Yeshua. There are traditions that Jews have followed for many years to set Shabbat apart, like lighting candles and making challah, and reading from a prayer book with the Pslams. All of these things can be used as tools but are not required by Scripture. They are very nice traditions that have meaning and help us to set the day apart on sundown Friday night, but the main thing is that we hear the Biblical instruction to "cease".

If we do this and take time to be in relationship with Him, the rest of our week we will have this as a reminder and be to apply the idea of resting in Him when our week gets hectic and we overwhelmed. We can remember Who it is that supplies our every need, Who paid for our sins in full and who is coming back to reign in the millennium of Shabbat, when Yeshua reigns from Jerusalem. God didn't give us Shabbat as a punishment but to be a blessing, and most lose sight of this. The reason that they might is because of some of the traditions that have grown up around Judaism that may make people think that Shabbat is a burden. It's not. I'm not knocking all of the traditions, although some really obscure the point of Shabbat, which is Yeshua, so that should be the question we ask ourselves when celebrating. Is this pointing me to Yeshua or am I just engaging in traditions that pull me away? When we understand that He is our Shabbat rest, and Shabbat is made for man, not man for Shabbat, as He said, we can begin to really enter into this rest.

We have a nice meal with family and friends Friday night where we bless our family and read Scriptures , and Saturday we study as a congregation and worship.

When we do this we are also remembering from the creation of the world the Lamb was slain and we were chosen. This is what the Bible says. The other thing about Shabbat, in Genesis you will note that there is no day and night the seventh day and that is because Shabbat will be forever when we are dwelling in Yeshua's presence. Now we can walk in the spiritual reality of that truth by celebrating it and remembering that one day soon all things will be restored and we will dwell with Him forever. Since shalom literally means wholeness, we know that God will redeem His creation and that which was ruptured at the fall, will be restored.

Don't expect people to all see what you are seeing. This understanding is from Abba and not all are going to immediately see it.

Shabbat shalom,

Re: I have quoted many verses to you about the Word of God, not only that one. There is nothing wrong with traditions, but the "sacred traditions" especially those that invalidate the Word of God are highly problematic. We all have traditions we follow but if they destroy what the Word of God says, then we should not follow them. I have never said Messianic Judaism is a word used in the Bible nor do I particularly use that Word to describe myself. I am simply a Jew, who has found my Messiah.

Now you are back-peddling from what you have said previously. You posted X - number of feet of polemics against what you called my "man made traditions," but now that I have pointed out how your "man made tradition," (returning to customs, calendars rituals of the Old Law) contradicts the New Testament in so far as you are presenting them as something that is MANDATED by the New Testament - certain "traditions" are suddenly OK now that you find that you can't convincingly make your case from "the Bible only???"


OK. If "traditions are no longer banned, why are your "traditions" OK while mine are not. By what authority - apart from the "Bible only" - are you claiming that your "sacred traditions" are OK, while mine "invalidate the Word of God?"

I have shown from the Sacred Scriptures how your "sacred tradition" invalidates the Word od God. Acts 15: 28-30.

And before you even go there, I would remind you that I am NOT the one who has been claiming that the "Bible only" is my Rule of Faith. You are. All I am doing is holding you to your own standards. I am not obliged to defend MY beliefs by YOUR standards. You were wrong when you previously stated where the "burden of proof" lies. Since you are the one who has repeatedly challenged my beliefs and the beliefs of others here the burden of proof lies with YOU!

I have no problem defending my postition according to my Rule of Faith. Moreover, if I do not believe that Catholic Sacred Tradition is "man made," it is because I believe that it is Divine Revelation and/or teachings derived directly from the Divine Revelation which was ORALLY transmitted by Christ directly to the Apostles who preserved it intact and handed it on to their successors.

I understand and respect that orthodox Protestants may not wholly agree with this, but even if they don't, when it comes to the rock bottom fundamentals of the Christian faith,(Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds) I am even able to defend it from the Bible alone without contradicting myself.

Another thing you said was that belief in the Trinity was invalid on the grounds that the word "Trinity" was not explicitly found in the Scriptures.

Regarding the word "Trinity" - a descriptive word/shorthand used to describe "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" perhaps few people have noticed that the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds do NOT contain the descriptive/shorthand word "Trinity" either. But through common usage of the word by Christians down through the centuries since Tertullian first coined it, it is generally accepted that the word "Trinity" refers to the Godhead explicitly proclaimed in the aforementioned Creeds.

Also, none of your quotations about "the Word" clearly specify that it is the WRITTEN WORD.

For someone who claims to be "Jewish,"
you apparently have little understanding of what the Jewish oral tradition actually entails.

Also you are simply wrong about ACTS. Lets DO read all of the Acts of the Apostles - especially Acts 15:5 It was a certain SECT of the Pharisees who were demanding that gentiles be circumcised and keep the old Law of Moses.

But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law."
3 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter.
4 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they." 5
The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.

See also

Also, there is Christ's delegation of authority to Peter. Even though Protestants might not acknowledge the authority of Popes beyond Peter, I would think that they would certainly have to acknowledge his authority AT THAT TIME - especially with regard to "binding and loosing" which is in the Bible.

First addressed to Peter in Matt.16:19

Note that these keys were not given to Peter alone, but to all of Jesus’ disciples!

What are those keys that permits to bind and loose? Here again they are specified to be “the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. Do we need keys in order to get to heaven? Not at all, as John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” We have access to heaven through Jesus, not through some kind of key. It is clear that the context is figurative here.

What do these keys mean then?

They can be explained by reading the following text: Luke 11:52 “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.” NIV

The experts of the law seem to think they have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, but they “hinder those who were entering” and themselves had “not entered” it. In other words, they did not accept the gospel message, and they were trying to hinder people from accepting it as well! All through the gospels it is clear that these “experts pf the law” were opposed to Jesus and His gospel message, although His message was announced in the Old Testament (Acts 10:43 "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” NIV)

Joyce, there is nothing in the Bible that says that in 2000 years the FORM of the Church had to be identical with the form in which it existed in the days of the Apostles. The only one who is saying that is YOU and the leaders of your religious organization.

If anyone is inventing a NEW religion, it is you and your confreres.

Re:The Catholic Church officially cut the believers off from all of this in 325 a.d. although there were men who earlier had distanced themselves from Israel and the instructions God had given to Israel

Until 325 AD the Church suffered ten major persecutions, the last of which was the longest, bloodiest and most systematic persecution which lasted for about 8 years under the emperor Diocletian. As for your revisionist claims of "anti-Semitism," while the Romans were not too crazy about the revolts constantly being started by would-be false "messiahs," the Jews, unlike the Christians, were exempted from idol worship in the Roman Empire.

It was at the gathering referred to as the Council of Jamnia where the Jewish leaders formally broke off ties with Christians and invoked a curse upon them - probably the Catholic equivalent of "anathemetizing" those who were regarded as "heretics."

Also, if this same Council" ditched the Septuagint and the Book of the Maccabees it is said to be partly because it contains a record of the FORMAL TREATY which was VOLUNTARILY entered into with pagan Rome by Judus Maccabees - presumably in violation of the Torah.
1 Macc 8:1-32

It has become very evident to me and to other fellow Catholics that if you were ever a Catholic as you claim to have been, you were either a very badly educated Catholic or it was a "Catholicism" of yours or someone else's own devising.....especially since most of the information you have presented about Catholicism comes from bigots like Hislop, Goettner, Dave Hunt, Jack Chick, et al whose books are not even allowed in most respectable Christian bookstores.
Better give it up, Joyce (the debate that is) - because Susanna is blowing you right out of the water!!!
Dear Susanna,
I have to tell you that I was so excited to see you bringing
Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem, into this discussion! That's exactly where I turned the last couple of days along with scrupulously studying the Book of Romans (discussing the law and grace). I must commend you for articulating this conversation well!
I absolutely agree with your position on the Trinity. It is the terminology that seems to be the hang up. The Godhead, three-in-one conveys the message that Christianity promotes a Biblical stance that God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God.
I'm not quite sure that I understand your position on sola Scriptura, however, I'm interested in your explanation for this subject.
Sola Scriptura refers to the issue of salvation only, where I hear you stating that you are referring to a Rule of Faith. Therefore, I am curious about this particular perspective.
I'm just so pleased to have your input on this thread!

By His Grace,
Dear Suzette,

Re:Can I ask if (and I agree with 2 Peter 1:20) scriptures are not a matter of our own interpretation, they are not to be interpreted literally and they do not interpret themselves, by what method can /should we interpret them? What option is left?

We Catholics believe that the Catholic Rule of Faith is Scripture and Sacred Tradition and that the Scriptures are properly interpreted by the Church - beginning with the Apostles and continuing in a concrete, historical Apostolic succession down to our very day.

It is my understanding that most mainstream Protestants accept the Church Councils of Chalcedon and Nicaea. I am not sure about their rules for interpreting the Scriptures, so I do not want to assume anything here that I have no right to assume.

If you feel that you want to VOLUNTARILY follow the dietary laws of the Old Testament, then by all means do so, but this is NOT mandated by the New Testament Scriptures, nor by Sacred Tradition. Neither is there a requirement to abstain from blood except in so far as consuming blood is part of an idolatrous ritual.

Perhaps you are not aware of it, but Greek and Roman pagans sacrificed swine to Zeus/Jupiter and then RITUALLY consumed the sacrificed meat, blood, etc.

In fact, the "abomination of desolation" describes the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes described in the Books of the Maccabees in which he erected a statue of Zeus in the Temple, desecrated the altar by an offering of swine and sprinkled the pig's juices probably including its blood in the sanctuary.

THIS is what made certain kinds of foods "unclean" in the Old Testament.....namely, their association with idolatry.

St. Paul instructs his followers that when they go to someone's house to eat whatever is set before them UNLESS the person tells them that what has been set before them has been part of a pagan sacrifice - in which case Paul's followers are instructed not to eat it in order set a good example and to avoid giving scandal.
1 Corinthians 10:14-32

Warning against Idolatry

14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I am speaking as to wise people. Judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup (A) of blessing (B) that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread (C) that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one (D) body, for all of us share that one bread. 18 Look at the people of Israel. [a] Are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? (E) 19 What am I saying then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but I do say that what they [b] sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons! 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot share in the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22 Or are we provoking the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

Absolute rule:

Don't eat meat that you KNOW is sacrificed to idols.


Everything is permissable (to eat) but not everything is good to do. The rule is look out for other peoples' welfare first.

9 "Everything is lawful," but not everything is beneficial. 10 "Everything is lawful," but not everything builds up.
No one should seek his own advantage, but that of his neighbor.
11 Eat anything sold in the market, without raising questions on grounds of conscience,
for "the earth and its fullness are the Lord's."
If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever is placed before you, without raising questions on grounds of conscience.
But if someone says to you, "This was offered in sacrifice," do not eat it on account of the one who called attention to it and on account of conscience;
I mean not your own conscience, but the other's. For why should my freedom be determined by someone else's conscience?
If I partake thankfully, why am I reviled for that over which I give thanks?
So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God.
12 Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God,
just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved.
1 Corinthians 10: 23-33

The same would hold true for blood transfusions. A person wouldn't have to worry about receiving a blood transfusion UNLESS he KNEW idolatry were involved. Even then if it were to save his life and he regarded idols as bogus and the intention in receiving the blood transfusion was NOT to worship idols, it would be permitted.

Suzette, here is what I think is an excellent explanation of this particular issue from APOLOGETICS PRESS.

God is not going back on His Word. The New Testament is the FULFILLMENT of the Old Testament.
Once the precepts and rituals of the Old Law were FULFILLED by Christ, they served their purpose and were no longer necessary.
Have you guys seen this commercial of Matraiya sp?
It's a video.

Thank you for your kind words.

Regarding your comment:

I'm not quite sure that I understand your position on sola Scriptura, however, I'm interested in your explanation for this subject.
Sola Scriptura refers to the issue of salvation only, where I hear you stating that you are referring to a Rule of Faith. Therefore, I am curious about this particular perspective.
I'm just so pleased to have your input on this thread!

The Roman Catholic Rule of Faith is Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The Protestant Rule of Faith is "Sola Scriptura" a.k.a. the "Bible only."

Here is an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia explaining both.

Here are a couple of other links that you might find helpful.

Before you allow your conscience to be completely enslaved you might want to read the following:


by Al Boyce
Published November 27, 2006

As Christmas draw near this year, I find myself searching for those few parts of the season that actually point to Christ.

We are surrounded by gaudy displays of lights, greedy appeals from stores, and Santa-suited men sitting under fake evergreen trees. I don't need to tell you what would happen if a store dressed an employee up like Jesus and had Him greeting customers.

I picture wide-eyed tots sitting on His lap saying, "Please heal grandma's rheumatoid arthritis, find Uncle Mike a job and help Aunt Clarissa with her drinking problem."

The Christmas carols still mention Jesus (oh, not Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, but others). But society seems to leave it up to us to find Christ in Christmas more and more.

This year I'd like to put Christ back in the Christmas tree.

Of course, there were no Christmas trees in the little town of Bethlehem. They aren't mentioned in the Bible. As near as I can figure, they started showing up in the 1500s in the Alsace region of Germany -- possibly as a combination of the "paradise tree" sometimes depicted in early plays about Adam and Eve and the Christmas lights popular in the late Middle Ages.

The Christmas tree has been criticized by some.

Lutheran theologian Johann Dannhauer wrote about it in "The Milk of the Catechism," calling the Christmas tree "child's play."

"Far better were it to point the children to the spiritual cedar-tree, Jesus Christ," he wrote.

But that isn't really such a stretch, is it?

The trees in the "paradise plays" were adorned with apples to signify the sin of Adam and Eve. The plays typically ended with the promise of the coming Savior and His promise of eternal life. The fir tree -- or evergreen -- was chosen to symbolize the gift of everlasting life.

The tree also reminds us of the crucifixion of Christ. Interestingly, scripture often refers to His death on a tree, rather than on a cross.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." -- 1 Peter 2:24

"The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree." -- Acts 5:30

"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree." -- Acts 10:39

"When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb." -- Acts 13:29

So, this Christmas season, we don't need to get rid of the Christmas tree or the lights. We need only see the tree as a symbol of Christ's sacrifice for us, and the lights as a symbol of Jesus, the light of the world.

Lost the link on the following, but here they are anyway:

The Christmas Tree

The Christmas Tree originated in Germany in the 16th century. It was common for the Germanic people to decorate fir trees, both inside and out, with roses, apples, and colored paper. It is believed that Martin Luther, the Protestant reformer, was the first to light a Christmas tree with candles. While coming home one dark winter's night near Christmas, he was struck with the beauty of the starlight shining through the branches of a small fir tree outside his home. He duplicated the starlight by using candles attached to the branches of his indoor Christmas tree. The Christmas tree was not widely used in Britain until the 19th century. It was brought to America by the Pennsylvania Germans in the 1820's.

Santa Claus

The original Santa Claus, St. Nicholas, was born in Turkey in the 4th century. He was very pious from an early age, devoting his life to Christianity. He became widely known for his generosity for the poor. But the Romans held him in contempt. He was imprisoned and tortured. But when Constantine became emperor of Rome, he allowed Nicholas to go free. Constantine became a Christian and convened the Council of Nicaea in 325. Nicholas was a delegate to the council. He is especially noted for his love of children and for his generosity. He is the patron saint of sailors, Sicily, Greece, and Russia. He is also, of course, the patron saint of children. The Dutch kept the legend of St. Nicholas alive. In 16th century Holland, Dutch children would place their wooden shoes by the hearth in hopes that they would be filled with a treat. The Dutch spelled St. Nicholas as Sint Nikolaas, which became corrupted to Sinterklaas, and finally, in Anglican, to Santa Claus. In 1822, Clement C. Moore composed his famous poem, "A Visit from St. Nicholas," which was later published as "The Night Before Christmas." Moore is credited with creating the modern image of Santa Claus as a jolly fat man in a red suit. However, his authorship is controversial. Some scholars suggest that it was Henry Livingston Jr. who wrote the poem.

See also:


One more thing.....regardless of the DATE upon which we celebrate Christmas, for Christians, the ORIGIN of Christmas is, and should be, the birth of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible.


The bottom line here is that things like eggs and trees and other things of this world are created by a perfectly good God and are therefore good in and of themselves by that very fact besides geing morally neutral. It is the way in which they are used that is either good or evil.

Ergo I am not going to stop using a tree with decorations for the good purpose of celebrating Christ's birth or eggs for the good purpose of celebrating Easter just because someone else may have put these same things to a bad use in ancient times.
One quick comment. I'm really on the run. I'm not back peddling on anything. Traditions are something that man makes. The Word of God is something that God has given. Traditions in itself is not evil, but when we try to give it the same place as the Word of God or use it to alter the Word of God then we have violated God's Word and we have "invalidated the Word of God with our traditions".

If we want to know God accurately, we have to know Him according to His Word, and His Word alone.

Some of the verses that you quoted from I will put in context when I have more time. They are verses that people typically use to try to prove that Torah has been invalidated, but when you put the verses in their proper context, that's not what they say at all.


No,Joyce. Not all traditions are man made. That very claim is itself a "man made tradition."

Let me put things "in context" for you.

The Catholic rule of faith is Scripture plus Tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the Apostles plus the authority to interpret Scripture rightly.

For Catholics, Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inseparable.

Neither is man made

As for the Torah, I didn't say that Torah has been invalidated. Those are YOUR words, not mine.

Once the Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ it had served its purpose as "pedagogue" to lead the chosen people to the Messiah so that they might be declared righteous by faith (Torah is derived from a word meaning "to teach") and it is consequently no longer necessary for followers of Christ to adhere to the CEREMONIAL portion of the Law of Moses such as circumcision, dietary laws,festivals, etc. which were temporary.

It is still necessary, however to adhere to the moral Law embodied in the Ten Commandments which are permanent.

St.Paul's Epistle to the Galatians addresses the question "Was the Mosaic law binding on Christians?"
Dear Susanna,
Thank you for the links. I appreciate you taking the time to address these matters on this thread.
I'm right with you on several Biblical points that you've stressed here thus far.
I agree with you, in particular, that you did NOT say, at any time, that Torah has been invalidated. It most certainly has NOT been invalidated.

By His Grace,
Hey, Susanna -

Hi SV,

You are most welcome for the links.

And thank you for affirming the fact that I did NOT say at any time that the Torah had been invalidated.

Jesus Himself said that He had not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. And apart from our still being required to obey the moral Law - the Law of Love that BEGINS with the Ten Commandments - we are no longer required to obey the ceremonial part of the Law unless our not obeying it would cause someone else to sin.

For example, in terms of the ritual dietary regulations of the Old Law, inviting an observant Jew or Muslim to dinner and serving non-kosher food would be a sin against charity in so far as we would be tempting them to sin against THEIR conscience.

Wherefore, if meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble.

1 Corinthians 8:13

and here are some cross references....

Romans 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;

2 Corinthians 6:3 giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited,

2 Corinthians 11:29 Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern?


This teaching cut both ways in so far as another reason for the exhortation to the gentiles to "abstain from blood" was so that they would not give scandal to their Jewish brethren or to the new converts to Christianity among the Jews who had always been strictly commanded not to consume blood and would have therefore been horrified to even be in the presence of someone they perceived as "consuming blood."

As you can see, I have not merely dug up some obscure Biblical passage to use as a "proof text" for the teaching that since the Old Law had been fulfilled in Christ, the CEREMONIAL PART of the Old Law had served its pedagogical purpose of leading the Chosen People to Christ and was therefore no longer necessary. It is mentioned several times - especially in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Pauline Epistles.

If someone wants to keep the ceremonial part of the Old Law to preserve their ethnic heritage, I don't think that there is necessarily anything wrong with that.

In fact the Association of Hebrew Catholics does precisely that. But they refer to themselves most often as HEBREW CATHOLICS in reference to their ethnicity within the Catholic community, and less often as "Jewish Catholics" in order to avoid causing confusion about their religious beliefs.

Hebrew Catholics (in Hebrew עברים קתולים Ivrim Qatholim) are Christians of Jewish derivation who are members of the Catholic Church and keep their Jewish traditions in light of the Gospel and the Church's Magisterium. Many reside in Israel but the greatest number are to be found in the United States......

.....Hebrew Catholics should not be confused with Messianic Jews, who are independent Hebrew Christian denominations, many of them sabbatarian Protestants, some of whom follow Calvninist doctrine but celebrate Jewish holy days and emphasize Jewish elements of Christianity. Hebrew Catholics are in full communion with the Vatican and are not an independent movement....


According to Bloomer (2008) "There is a broad range of Hebrew Catholics. From those who observe nothing much of the Jewish ways up to those who observe the same as Orthodox Jews. There are many different opinions but they all try to accept each other whatever their level of observance."

Furthermore, Fr. Neuhaus (2008), a priest for the Hebrew-speaking Catholics in Jerusalem and a Jew born himself, declares as follows: "Dietary laws are not obligatory for those who live in Christ. I would only understand dietary laws being observed by Jewish Catholics if they had always practised these laws before becoming Catholic. It certainly does no harm. But adopting the laws as Catholic (or as secular Jews who have become Catholic) does not make much sense as we have the fullness of the promise in Jesus." Other Hebrew Catholics especially those who prefer the name Jewish Catholics or Catholic Jews observe the Kosher Food Laws and see much spiritual significance in such Torah observance.......

So as you can see, SV, as a Roman Catholic I don't have any problem with the idea of someone voluntarily observing the ceremonial elements of the Old Law.

I DO have a problem, however when someone tries to enslave the consciences of others by claiming that such observance is MANDATED in the New Testament.

Another thing I hope you have noticed is all the flack I have been getting hit with about "man made traditions" at the same time that I have been mostly quoting the Scriptures.

LOL Do you see something wrong with this picture?
Hey Anonymous 9:43 AM

Thanks! SO DO YOU!


LOL I would add that the existence of the Association of Hebrew Catholics DOES tend to undercut charges of anti-Semitism levelled against the Catholic church, doesn't it?
Dear Susanna,
I know for a fact that
anti-Semitism can be found across the board of many organized religions. History testifies for itself. Anyone who would charge the Catholic Church as such should be willing to be honest about the fact that such a charge could be made against the Protestant Church as well, sadly.
You and I may have differing opinions about C.S. Lewis
[LOL ;-)] but, I really appreciate the scope of your Biblical knowledge and understanding.
I guess my objection comes, in particular, when an individual uses phrases like: "well-meaning Christians", "a careful reading of the Scriptures", "if you are not walking according to God's sacred calendar" and, "if either of you want to examine the Scriptures". Remarks such as these are presumptuous and lacking in grace towards those "well-meaning" Christians who have devoted a lifetime of faithful study and examination of the Holy Word of God, and subsequently living in faithful obedience, with complete devotion, to the Lord Almighty.
I simply refuse to hold in condemnation a fellow Christian who places a tree in their home at Christmas or who dyes eggs with their toddlers and hands out candies to them after their Sunday Worship service.
And yet, curiously, I'm the one to which the "judge not lest ye be judged" Scripture was quoted.

Anyway, I've been yanking weeds out of my front lawn all day. I can barely move due to soreness, not as young as I believe myself to be :-)!
Keep up the good work!

By His Grace,

Mark 666, madrid
Constance, are you familiar with this info?

The passage that you quote from Romans 14 is used often to say the dietary laws have been done away with, among others. The context of the passage is about judging your brother.

In this passage Peter says:

Acts 11:8 “But I said, ‘By no means, Lord, for nothing 1unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

The Greek word used for "unholy" koinos is the same word translated "unclean" in the passage of Romans 14. Normally the word for unclean is "akathartos" which is the second word used in the verse above.

One might want to ask why the translators of the English bible did not use consistency in translating the Greek word. The word koinos would refer to "common" or "unholy". So what was Paul talking about in Romans 14? He was talking about mean purchased in the market place that is "common" which wasn't perhaps acceptable by rabbinic standards of Second Temple Judaism.

One of the the greatest problems of accurately translating the Epistles of Paul is that they are not often taken in the context of Second Temple Judaism.

Interestingly, when Yeshua cast unclean spirits of the man who was demon-possessed, He cast them into a herd of swine,

Mark 5:13 Jesus gave them permission. And coming out, the unclean spirits entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, about two thousand of them; and they were drowned in the sea.

The word here for unclean is akathartos in the Greek.

The separation of ceremonial v.s. morale is a separation made by man.

No, it's our place to judge, but what is clean and unclean has not changed. Noah, prior to the giving of Torah knew what was clean and unclean.

There are actually good scientific reasons too why these animals are unclean. Many animals also eat other animals, but the ones that we are permitted to eat, eat only herbs. Interestingly enough the Mad Cow disease was thought to be caused because the cows were fed with some kind of meat product.

Today, an Orthodox Jew would not go to a regular supermarket and buy a steak, they would go to a kosher butcher who would assure them by the seal of the rabbi that the animal was slaughtered properly with the blood drained out, no illness, etc, etc. There are Jews who buy from the regular market place, who are not Orthodox, but they would not eat pork, so this is really the discussion that is taking place in Romans 14 and the idea of whether we should judge these believers.

Because Second Temple Judaism had developed a whole system of Traditions that were not necessarily written down in Torah, but were followed by the Jews of that period, we sometimes miss nuances of what is actually being stated in the passage.

I don't judge people who don't observe the dietary laws, but I do explain what Scriptures.

Hi SV,

Thank you for your kind words. We are on the same page as far as your comments go. LOL Except for C.S. Lewis, perhaps. But that's OK. ;-)

I spent most of the day finishing up a quilt. Here in New England you can never have too many.

I am just about to go and give my eyes and hands a well-deserved rest.

Take care and God Bless
Part of this post is taken from an online source beginning at(

You can talk and talk and talk and write and write and write. Continuously praise well written defences, but in the end only truth stands.

The fact that the catholic institution has neither apostolic succession, or temporal power given by Yahushua, causes its bulwarks to crumble to the ground.

I'm just being "open, and honest here"

I'm not a "catholic basher", as most of my family has VERY deep catholic roots. I HAVE NO HATRED TOWARD CATHOLICS. I have no passion for, or active membership in, any denomination.

They all have some shortcoming in what the church should be like. Where the spirit of the church of Philadelphia exists today, its found mostly in the hearts of individual believers. From the catholic institution itself, as well as other denominations.

I base my decisions on personal observations based on the Word of God. When iv engaged a wide demographic cross section of catholics in conversation over the years, and found few believed in salvation in Christ alone. The vast majority were looking to the catholic institution for their hope of eternal security. Not to mention the degree of NA involved. I find the institution grossly in error, and spiritually dangerous.

(The Roman Catholic church always has been and continues to be a false church. The Biblical doctrines it professes to believe and teach are perverted by doctrine based upon tradition that contradicts the Bible, God's infallible Word. Error is never more deceptive than when it is presented with a mask of truth. The leaders of the Catholic Church have always fit the description of the false teachers who God warned in advance would come on the scene in the last days, deceiving many with their counterfeit words - as described in II Peter 2:1-3, 18, 19.

It is essential to understand that two basic false teachings of Roman Catholicism (even apart from its many other errors), clearly classify it as a false cult rather than a true church. These two basic errors are:

Roman Catholicism, although teaching that the Bible is the Word of God, adds the spurious apocryphal books to the Scriptures, and also elevates church tradition and the edicts of popes and councils (the words of men), to the same or an even greater level of authority than the Word of God. This amounts to adding to the Word of God, thereby placing Roman Catholicism under God's curse. (Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18-19)

Roman Catholicism, although teaching that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation, actually denies the truth of the Gospel by adding sacraments, good works, and purgatory as additional requirements for forgiveness of sin and for eternal life. This amounts to the preaching of a false Gospel which places the Roman Catholic Church under God's curse. (Galatians 1:6-10)

Thus, by Scriptural standards, the Roman Catholic Church is a false church and a cult that can only expect God's judgment, not a true church that can claim God's blessing. No amount of outward change should be permitted to obscure this fact. Roman Catholicism is nothing more than Babylonian paganism that has been whitewashed and made to appear Christian.

Cult Beliefs:

They believe purgatory is a place where a person is purified of sins – even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says, when a person dies their eternal home is sealed – heaven or hell – there is no place in between like purgatory. (Hebrews 9:27) The word "purgatory" and its concept is not found in the Bible.

They believe in worshipping images of Mary, crucifix, saints, angels, etc. The Bibles speaks out against this. (Exodus 20:4-5)

They believe in repetitious prayer to Mary, saints and angels. The complete Rosary involves repeating the Hail Mary 53 times, the Lord's prayer 6 times, 5 Mysteries, 5 Meditations on the Mysteries, 5 Glory Be's, and the Apostles' Creed. The Rosary did not come into general use until after the beginning of the thirteenth century, and not officially sanctioned until after the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century. The concept of praying to Mary, saints, and angels is not found in the Bible; on the contrary, we are directed to pray to our Father. (Matthew 6:9-13) In the Rosary, Mary is prayed to almost 9 times for every prayer directed to God. The Bible speaks out very clearly against praying in vain repetitions as the heathens do.

In "The Holy Father's Prayer for the Marian Year [1987]," John Paul II asks Mary to do what only God can do – comfort, guide, strengthen, and protect "the whole of humanity ..." His prayer ends: "Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation." (4/97, Berean Call).
Dear Shem1777,
Thank you for your honest and open discussion here.
The sarcasm has not alluded me.

By His Grace,
Scriptural support for the belief in Purgatory:

"There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they are written in the book of life of the Lamb"
Revelation 21:27 (Douay-Rheims Bible)

"It is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."
2 Maccabees 12:46
Is. 66:17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will ccome to an end altogether,” declares the LORD.

Is. 66:23 “And it shall be from anew moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD.

ALL Mankind will bow down on Sabbath, not just Israel, so maybe we out to learn about it now.

In response to the verse from Rev 21;27 being about "purgatory" I would have to heartily disagree and want to point out what Ephesians says:

Eph. 1:4-8 just as aHe chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 1He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
In 1Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us.

Our redemption was determined before the foundations of the earth. The Lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth too, so there is nothing we have to DO for someone who has received the righteousness of Messiah when they are dead, contrary to what is written in Maccabees which is a historical book, but not Scripture.

We are ALREADY seated in the heavenlies according to Ephesians.

Eph. 2:4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead 1in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

WE who believe are seated in the heavenlies in Messiah Yeshua. Now we are not to be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our mind proving the what is is good and acceptable Romans 12:2

We cannot add one thing to our salvation. Messiah Yeshua accomplished it all. He paid in full, and it is a fait accompli. The thief on the cross was in paradise the same day that he believed. There was no purgatory.

Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Our spiritual reality is we are already seated in the heavenlies, even as we live our life on planet earth as we await the summing up of all things. When we realize this, we can live our life out in freedom, not trying to earn something that's already been paid for in full. This is why when I talk about Torah, I don't talk about doing these things to "win my salvation". My salvation is already a reality. I am truly free from all the sins I committed yesterday, today and tomorrow, but as a new creation, I am naturally going to want to hear my Father's voice and obey Him.

you are free from sins of tomorrow when you repent of them.
1 John 1:9
Since nothing "defiled" shall enter Heaven - and we are ALL flawed human beings - many may have to be "purged" or go through a "purification" before entering Heaven.

Yes, the thief on the cross next to Jesus did receive special attention and immediate and TOTAL forgiveness from Jesus Himself with the promise, "Today, you shall be with me in Paradise."

Each and every one of us will receive individual and personal judgement from God - and ONLY God knows what is inside each and every heart and soul.

Our life long actions toward our fellow man (and not just WORDS) will contribute toward what that ultimate judgement will be.
Anonymous 7:47 PM and Anonymous 9:08 AM:

Scriptural support for the belief in Purgatory:

“31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.”

Matthew 12:31-32

The Septuagint (IPA: /ˈsɛptuədʒɪnt/), or simply "LXX", is the Koine Greek version of the Hebrew Bible, translated in stages between the 3rd and 1st centuries BC in Alexandria.

It is the oldest of several ancient translations of the Hebrew Bible into the Greek language, the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterranean Basin from the time of Alexander the Great (356-323 BC).

The word septuaginta means "seventy" in Latin and derives from a tradition that seventy (or seventy-two) Jewish scholars translated the Pentateuch (Torah) from Hebrew into Greek for Ptolemy II Philadelphus, 285–246 BC.

The Septuagint includes some books not found in the Hebrew Bible. Many Protestant Bibles follow the Jewish canon and exclude the additional books. Roman Catholics, however, include some of these books in their canon while Eastern Orthodox Churches use all the books of the Septuagint. Anglican lectionaries also use all of the books except Psalm 151, and the full Authorized (King James) Version includes these additional books in a separate section labelled the "Apocrypha".
The Septuagint was held in great respect in ancient times; Philo and Josephus ascribed divine inspiration to its authors. Besides the Old Latin versions, the LXX is also the basis for the Slavonic, Syro-Hexaplar (but not the Peshitta), Old Armenian, Old Georgian and Coptic versions of the Old Testament.

Of significance for all Christians and for Bible scholars, the LXX is quoted by the Christian New Testament and by the Apostolic Fathers.

While Jews have not used the LXX in worship or religious study since the second century AD, recent scholarship has brought renewed interest in it in Judaic Studies. Some of the Dead Sea scrolls attest to Hebrew texts other than those on which the Masoretic Text was based; in many cases, these newly found texts accord with the LXX version. The oldest surviving codices of LXX (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) date to the fourth century AD........

The Septuagint is the Old Testament referred to in the Didache or "Doctrine of the Apostles" (first century Christian writings) and by Origen, Irenaeus of Lyons, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Justin Martyr, St. Augustine and the vast majority of early Christians who referenced Scripture in their writings. The Epistle of Pope Clement, written in the first century, refers to the Books Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom, analyzed the book of Judith, and quotes sections of the book of Esther that were removed from Protestant Bibles.

Bottom line: the Septuagint was the version of the Old Testament accepted by the very earliest Christians (and, yes, those 7 "extra" books were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls which date between 168 B.C. and A.D. 68, and which by the way, support both the Septuagint and the 6th - 10th c. A.D. Masoretic texts in various ways, but supporting the Septuagint on average. 3 ).

The deuterocanonical books were, though, debated in the early Church, and some Fathers accorded them higher status than others (hence the Catholic term for them: "deuterocanonical," or what St. Cyril of Jerusalem called "secondary rank," as opposed to the other books which are called "protocanonical"). But all the Fathers believed as did St. Athanasius, who, in one of his many Easter letters, names the 22 Books all Christians accept and then describes the deuterocanonicals as "appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness." Church Councils listed and affirmed the present Catholic canon, which was only formally closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century.

In the 16th c., Luther, reacting to serious abuses and clerical corruption in the Latin Church, to his own heretical theological vision (see articles on sola scriptura and sola fide), and, frankly, to his own inner demons, removed those books from the canon that lent support to orthodox doctrine, relegating them to an appendix. Removed in this way were books that supported such things as prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45), Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7), intercession of dead saints (2 Maccabees 15:14), and intercession of angels as intermediaries (Tobit 12:12-15). Ultimately, the "Reformers" decided to ignore the canon determined by the Christian Councils of Hippo and Carthage (and reaffirmed and closed at the Council of Trent4), and resort solely to those texts determined to be canonical at the Council of Jamnia.

Now we have to back up a bit: around A.D. 90-100, after the Temple fell, a rabbinical school was formed by Johanan ben Zakkai. The "Council of Jamnia" (also called "Jabneh" or "Javneh") is the name given to the decisions made by this pharisaic school. I repeat: the gathering at Jamnia was a Jewish, not a Christian, "council" consisting of Pharisees some 40 years after the Resurrection of our Lord. At that time, Jews were being scattered, and the very existence of Jewry per the Pharisees' vision of "Jewry" was being threatened. At this time, too, Christianity was growing and threatening that same Jewish identity, resulting in severe persecution of Christians by Jews. In reaction to these things and to the fact that "Nazarenes" (i.e., "Christians", who at that time were overwhelmingly Hebrew) used the Septuagint to proselytize other Jews, Zakkai convened the Jamnian school with the goals of safeguarding Hillel's Oral Law, deciding the Jewish canon (which had theretofore been, and possibly even afterward remained 5, an open canon!), and preventing the disappearance of Jewry into the Diaspora of the Christian and Roman worlds. So, circling their wagons, they threw out the Septuagint that they had endorsed for almost 400 years. Note that at the time of Christ, most Jews spoke Aramaic, Latin (the official language of the area), and/or Greek (the lingua franca at that time), not Hebrew, which was a sacred language used by priests for the Hebrew liturgy. In any case, a new Greek translation was created by Aquila -- but one without the ancient Septuagint's language that proved more difficult for the Jews to defend against when being evangelized by the Christians, the point being that any idea that a book "had" to have been written in Hebrew to be "Biblical" wasn't the issue.

Moving the story along: in other words, the Protestant "Reformers" decided against the canon held dear by the Apostles in favor of a canon determined by Pharisees some 40 years after Jesus rose from the dead -- the same Pharisees who denied the Truths of the entire New Testament, even accusing the "Nazarenes" of stealing Jesus' body from the tomb and lying to the world! (Interestingly, it was Zakkai's successor, Gamaliel, who forced the "Nazarenes" out of the synagogues. Gamaliel also made it obligatory for Jews to pray the "Prayer of Eighteen Petitions," the 12th petition, which is still prayed today, known as the birkat, being "For apostates may there be no hope, and may the Nazarenes and heretics suddenly perish.")

And do you know why the Book of Maccabees was thrown out by the Jewish Council? Because the Council was conducted under the auspices of the Flavian Roman Emperors and they decided that that particuar book, which tells of the Maccabean Revolt, might be inflammatory and incite rebellion by the Jews. So, all those Protestant Bibles are lacking the Book of Maccabees, which speaks clearly of praying for the dead, because a pagan emperor pressured the Pharisees, around 40 years after the Resurrection of Christ, to exclude it. And lest anyone is still tempted to think that it was the "Roman Church" that came up with these books and that they were not written by pre-Christ Jews (an assertion I've actually read at "Messianic" websites), Jews in other parts of the world who didn't get news of the Council of Jamnia's decisions still use those "extra" 7 books to this very day (research the canon used by Ethiopian Jewry).


Me, I will trust the version of the Old Testament that was loved by Peter and Paul.

But there is a bigger lesson in all this confusion over not only the canon but proper translation of the canon (see footnotes), especially considering that even within the Catholic Church there have been differing opinions by individual theologians about the proper place of the deuterocanonicals (not that an individual theologian's opinions count for Magisterial teaching!). The lesson, though, is this: relying on the "Bible alone" is a bad idea; we are not to rely solely on Sacred Scripture to understand Christ's message. While Scripture is "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16-17), it is not sufficient for reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. It is the Church that is the "pillar and ground of Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)! Jesus did not come to write a book; He came to redeem us, and He founded a Sacramental Church through His apostles to show us the way. It is to them, to the Church Fathers, to the Sacred Deposit of Faith, to the living Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit, and to Scripture that we must prayerfully look.....

Upon the destruction of Jerusalem, Jochanan converted his school at Jamnia into the Jewish religious centre, insisting that certain privileges, given by Jewish law uniquely to Jerusalem, should be transferred to Jamnia. His school behaved as a re-establishment of the Sanhedrin, and he soon established the Council of Jamnia (70-90 AD), so that Judaism could decide how to deal with the loss of the sacrificial altars of the temple of Jerusalem, and other pertinent questions. Referring to a passage in the Book of Hosea, which states I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, he helped persuade the council to replace animal sacrifice with prayer, a practice that continues in today's worship services; eventually Rabbinic Judaism emerged from the council's conclusions.
You first have to commit the sin before you can ask forgiveness from or repent from it.

NOT - forgive me for all my future sins I have not yet committed amen.

C. Reality check three: Read 1 John v.10.

What is the third test of
whether we are on the trail to fellowship with God? (If we claim (or think) we have never sinned.)

1. Is this a more outrageous claim than those described in 1 John v.8? (Yes. They claim not only present sinlessness,but the claim that have never sinned.)

a. Are these people just confused? (In v.8 John suggests that those who claim present sinlessness
are "self-deceived." But those who claim to have never sinned make God out to be a liar and God's
word "has no place" in them!)

2. How do these people who claim they have never sinned "make [God] out to be a liar?" (God has clearly revealed
to us the natural state of our hearts in Gen. 8:21: every
"inclination of [our] heart is evil from childhood."

(Consequences of Original Sin - lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life 1John 2:16)

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?")

In Adam ALL have sinned.

Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12

"All our righteousness is like filthy rags",

Isaiah 64:4-9 (King James Version)

4For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

8But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

9Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

In Yeshua, we have the righteousness of Messiah. This is not to say we don't sin, but it is to say that being born again restores us to the position of being "in Him" which is actually where we were planted in the beginning. Better translation of Gen 1 is.

God planted a garden in delight from before the first.

If it was planted in delight before the first, it means that it was in Him. What Yeshua restores is just that. We are in Him and He is in us. We have the righteousness of Yeshua. WE are seated in the heavenlies.

Just as we were planted in delight, we are restored to our original position as we await the restoration of all things. Right now we are still living in a fallen world, but walking in the spiritual reality of what has been accomplished for us through the death and resurrection of Yeshua.

This does not mean that we always obey God. Missing the mark, the definition of sin does not change who we are or where we are seated. The process of sanctification is done from a position of security where we come into agreement with what God says in His Word. The gospel is preached in Genesis.

If we have to "do something" to be justified then Yeshua's work is in vain. He said "it is finished" meaning that He reversed the effects of the fall when He was here on planet Earth gave His life so that He would take the penalty of death that we deserved.

Because we are the righteousness of Yeshua, of course we want to agree with what the Scriptures say.

Rom. 12:2 And do not abe conformed to bthis world, but be transformed by the crenewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

2Cor. 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every alofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,

It is critical to know that we already are the righteousness of Messiah in our new identity.

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, 1he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

I died and was buried with Yeshua and am raised up in newness of life, His life.

Gal. 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who dloved me and egave Himself up for me.

If we don't understand that we died and are now new creations, we will not understand what happened when Yeshua died and we accepted His substitutionary atonement for our sins.

Should we sin now that we have be bought with the price of Yeshua's blood? Heavens no!

1Cor. 6:20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

We were slaves to sin, just like Ancient Israel were slaves in Egypt, but when Messiah, our Passover Lamb was slain ( which He already was from the foundation of the world since God is outside of time) we were set free from the wages of our sin, which are death..

We are now seated in the heavenly realms, while being here on earth at the same time, but since we are already in the throne room our behavior should match the righteousness we already are. This process takes place by the renewing of our mind as we read the Word and God puts it on our heart.

Teshuvah, the hebrew word for repentance means coming into agreement with what God says sin is and turning away from our previous sins. Confessing is nothing more than agreeing with God's Word about what He already says. We do not lose our salvation and have to earn it back when we sin, but we might not be walking in communion, hearing from our Father because we are not lining up with His Word. Our minds need to be circumcised.. i.e. the layer of flesh must be removed. Our mind must be washed with the Living Water of the Word.

correction.. meant to say Gen 2 Joyce
i'm gonna let God work on this one, whew!
Constance has not authorized this request for donations to Micro Effect towards her radio program; My Perspective. We want to help Constance stay on the air. MAKE YOUR DONATIONS TO MICRO EFFECT, JOE MCNEIL AT P.O. BOX 164, KAMIAH, ID 83536 Let Joe know in a note either by email at the station or by snail mail with your donation, you are donating to My Perspective Radio program with Constance. Any donation would be appreciated.

Also you can donate through the CHIP IN box on the main page of Micro Effect Radio. It's a paypal donation. Just let Joe McNeil know you are putting this toward Constance's show only.

Some have already donated. Thanks! Margie
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