Thursday, February 05, 2009

Barack Obama at the National Prayer Breakfast

My husband's surgery this morning was successful, his doctors tell me. He was awake and alert within minutes after the surgery was complete to my amazement. He has to be very still for the next two weeks, not lift his left hand above his shoulder for the next several weeks. We are praying that the surgery will result in a stregthened heart muscle.

While in surgery, the doctors banished me to the hospital's dining room. CNN was just coming on with the National Prayer Breakfast speech by Tony Blair to be followed by President Barack Obama. I am hoping to find Blair's speech somewhere on the internet.

President Obama's speech I found disturbing on a few levels. He recounted something of the history of the Prayer Breakfast network and its start in Seattle in the 1930s. Being a former political speechwriter myself, that part was expected. Knowing, however, of the interrelationship between that network and the eternally New Age Institute of Noetic Sciences, does not cause me to sleep any easier at night.

Barack Obama told of his family's religious history. His faer was a Muslim who turned atheist. His maternal grandparents were lapsed Methodist and Baptist respectively. His mother, he said, had no use for organized religion but was one of the kindest, most senistive persons he had ever known. He did not become a Christian himself, until he moved to Chicago and met people there who introduced him to the Faith.

His perspective seemed normal for a person with the background he had . But I heard overtones of what I had heard before, specifically, Javier Solana's pronouncements on the "misuse of religion."

Bluntly, the speech had both New World Religion and Alliance of Civilizations similarities.

There is an excellent book written from an Afro-Centric perspective about the New Age Movement and New World Order: THE MILLENNIUM: A NEW AGE EXPOSE. Its author, Demond Wilson, is a devout Christian. He is probably better known to the world as the famed actor who played Lamont in Sanford and Sons, comedy television series.

I'm hoping Demond Wilson may one day very soon have the opportunity to meet with our new president and share his perspective. The New Age Movement and its related developments such as the alliance of Civilizations are perhaps a temporarily advantageous place to be for one who is NOT blue-eyed, blonde haired pagan. Anybody else in that "New World Order" where its "root teachings" of Theosophy are looking for the new eventual superman to come from the Aryan root race is in deep potential trouble. Sound familiar? It should. Those were root teachings of Nazism!

Everybody deserves one kind warning and that includes our current President! For excellent reasons well known to me and my readers, I suspect he will not get it from the Prayer Breakfast network crowd of Doug Coe, Paul N. Temple and associates.


In case you have not found Tony Blair's speech
Comet Lulin will make it’s closest approach to earth on Feb. 24th, 2009. At magnitude 4, it will be barely visible to the naked eye by that date. Astronomers are watching Lulin closely, wondering if the newly discovered comet will repeat the extraordinary performance of comet Holmes, which on Oct. 24, 2007, suddenly burst into a light display a million times brighter than expected.

On the 24th of February, Lulin will appear as a greenish blue pinpoint of light in the constellation of Leo a few degrees from Saturn. If Lulin has any surprises in store, it could be most timely.
Obama expected to announce "a new dawn" on February 24, 2009 in an address to joint session of Congress.
Thanks, Mary, for the Tony Blair speech link. It was CLEARLY "New World Religion". Tony and Cheri Blair underwent a New Age initiation several years ago in Mexico -- bowing to the 4 elements, etc., etc., at the site of the Mexican pyramids!

This strange email just appeared in my inbox?

Greetings ,

I want to pass on some info about 2012 NEXUS EVENT, a global meditation project that began on the Project Avalon Forum. The 2012 NEXUS EVENT thread has elicited much interest, over 150,000 reads and climbing, which shows the growing support for such action. Project Camelot has supported this event from the beginning and offer their continuing support in the blog updates on their site. James Gilliland and Michael Knight also offered their support by speaking on the Karen Conley show

I would like to ask for your participation in whatever way you would like for this project. we are aware that our planetary consciousness is in a wonderful state of transmutation at this time. this is why NEXUS 2012 is such a pivotal potential.

The full manifestation of the project is envisioned to assist Gaia, our Great Mother, in this transmutation by offering our collective energy in the healing process. our focus will be on the ancient sites which encompass our world, showing us where her life sustaining energy points are located.

being that you have a very large audience that covers the world, with hosts that have been leaders in this march and guests that are revealing more truth, we thought it would be a perfect opportunity to open an invitation to this continuing event.

if you have access to distribute this link to those you know, we would certainly appreciate it. here is the link to the NEXUS 2012 site and to the thread on the Project Avalon forum

You and your audience may also find this Global Harmony study completed by Bryan J. Williams University of New Mexico from 1998 – 2007 that would suggest the positive benefits of collective intention

(possible? we have videos that you could share in your community networks and we would also add your website or organization to a growing network page of like minded people)

nexus 2012 crew member
Good to hear that Barry came through it in good shape. That should take one worry away from you, and for that we are glad for the both of you.
Dear Constance,

I thank the Lord that your husband Barry came safely through his surgery.

I have been thinking about you and praying for you all day.

God is good!
Anonymous 5:55 PM

That message appears to be chock full of "New Age-isms."

Are you aware that "Namaste" is a term which, in Yoga, means "the light in me honors the light in you" as spoken by both the yoga instructor and yoga students?

Here are some links on "Namaste."


links do not seem to work -
"Citizens Solutions" For the New Era - Barbara Marx Hubbard (Video)

It was taken from where these stories on Obama's words at the Prayer Breakfast appeared.
Constance, maybe we better keep a closer eye than we were expecting on what transpires following the election of our new President.
I don't recall ANY former President of the United States, or ANY other world leader for that matter, receiving this level of exhilaration from key leaders who promote the Ancient Wisdom teachings. -Rudi

Aquarius Rising


by Nancy Seifer and Martin Vieweg

"On the morning before Election Day, two conservative pundits on cable TV were discussing what they already sensed would be a political tsunami. Bewildered by the Obama phenomenon, they were trying to make sense of it. One said off-handedly, in a tone slightly tinged with cynicism, “If you look at the newspapers from around the world, you’d think that if Obama wins it’s going to be the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.”

The following night, as news of Obama’s election instantly encircled the globe, it seemed that if any single event could mark the start of a new age, this was possibly it.
Something monumental had occurred for humanity as a whole. Tears of joy streamed down the faces of young and old, rich and poor, black and white, Latino and Asian, known and unknown. A palpable spirit of universal brotherhood and goodwill poured forth as spontaneous celebrations erupted around the world—from Athens to Sydney, Nairobi to Tokyo; from Times Square to Lafayette Square outside the White House.

In the eyes of people who spoke with reporters that night, there was a light reminiscent of the light shining from the faces of people who had caught the Aquarian spirit years earlier, starting at Findhorn—the community in northern Scotland where that spirit took root in the 1960s. That same light appeared among the throngs of celebrants at Grant Park, and at gatherings across the country and around the world—the light of the soul alive to goodness and truth, animated by hope for a new future. For such souls, something new had entered the world that night...

Zbigniew Brzezinski, a former National Security Advisor and well-known global strategist, saw the implications of Obama's election on a world scale. Speaking on cable TV a few days later, he said that he saw America as "the prototype of the universal society" and "a global pioneer." His words had an oddly familiar ring to students of the ageless wisdom teachings, which portray the Aquarian age as exactly that--a universal society in which millions of souls will become awakened to their higher nature, aware of the oneness of humanity, and concerned with the greater good." Read Full Article at:

For more about Barack Obama at this site see:
"Symbol-One Humanity"
'A Symbol of One Humanity in a Global Age'

"The Spiritual Dimensions of Obama's Leadership" is another most distubing article written by
Gordon Davidson and Corinne McLaughlin. They even include a section on "The Significance of Obama's Name"
Gordon Davidson and Corinne McLaughlin are the co-founders of The Center for Visionary Leadership.
Corrinne was the coordinator of a national task force for President Clinton’s Council on Sustainable Development They are both Fellows of The World Business Academy and The Findhorn Foundation.

The Center For Visionary Leadership:
"We will also reach out to leaders and scholars around the world to foster a more productive and peaceful dialogue on faith."
-Obama, National Prayer Breakfast

Alliance of Civilizations?

Hi Rudi,

Good post.

Sometimes it is interesting to do a little review of New Age organizations to see the latest things they are up to.

Findhorn is one such organization. It has been called "the Vatican of the New Age."

Peter Caddy who was the founder of the Findhorn Foundation along with his wife Eileen, was a member of the Rosicrucian Order Crotona Fellowship.

Sabina Magliocco, in her examination of the influences of the study of folklore on the development of Wicca, considers it possible that by the late 1930s some members of the Crotona Fellowship were performing Wicca-like rituals based on Co-Masonry, and that this was the group referred to by Gerald Gardner as the 'New Forest Coven'.

The numbers attending Rosicrucian Order Crotona Fellowship events always were small, and the group is best known today for its association with Gerald Gardner and Peter Caddy. Following the death of George Alexander Sullivan in 1942, the group’s activities and membership diminished. By the early 1950s their focus had moved to Southampton.

A significant minority among students of Alice Bailey's Arcane School were members of the Crotona Fellowship

Gerald Gardner, who was also influenced by Aleister Crowley, was a so-called "high priest" of what came to be known as "Gardnerian Wicca."



Findhorn Ecovillage is based at The Park, in Moray, Scotland near the village of Findhorn. The project's main aim is to demonstrate a sustainable development in environmental, social, and economic terms. Work began in the early 1980s under the auspices of the Findhorn Foundation but now includes a wide diversity of organisations and activities. Numerous different ecological techniques are in use, and the project has won a variety of awards, including the UN-Habitat Best Practice Designation in 1998.

A recent independent study concludes that the residents have the lowest ecological footprint of any community measured so far in the industrialised world and is also half of the UK average. Although the project has attracted some controversy, especially regarding the spiritual origins of the community, the growing profile of environmental issues such as climate change has led to a degree of mainstream acceptance of its ecological ethos. more....


CIFAL Findhorn
The Findhorn Foundation has been running educational programmes in environmental education since the early 1980s, but a new development occurred in September 2006 with the formal launching of CIFAL Findhorn. This is a new sustainable development training facility, which is a joint initiative between The Moray Council, the Global Ecovillage Network, the Findhorn Foundation and UNITAR.


CIFAL Findhorn

Woman Messiah?

Sheena Govan (1912–1967) was an informal spiritual teacher, and the daughter of evangelist John George Govan. Later in life she became an early influence on what would become the Findhorn Foundation. Her career demonstrated some of the links between Evangelism and early New Age more...
Praise God your husband is OK, Constance!
I am more convinced than ever that Barack Obama is being hung out to dry and the Europeans are waiting impatiently for USA to collapse so that global governance -- perhaps one world under Javier -- get under way. Middle East developments are happening as well:
"EU Lambasts Israeli Curbs on Gaza Aid" --

Wonder what's going to happen in mid 2010? Hopefully nothing, but should be interesting to watch -- I suspect big things are coming down and that Barack Obama has been left a bankrupted country to deal with -- I'll bet that if he wasn't praying before, he is now!

Supreme Master television??
this some pretty intense New Age stuff, and it looks like there is a female messianic figure coming out of China... Supreme Master Ching Hai,

(Ching Hai translates into "Clear Ocean" in case anyone was wondering)

Thanks Susanna,
It's so odd, I had heard of CIFAL
but never made the Findhorn connection until the past couple days when I saw it on the link list on the 'When the Soul Awakens' site.
Interesting info also re: the Caddy/Rosicrucian Order Crotona Fellowship. There is no end to the dark corners most of these people are involved in - once you look beyond its eco/environmental surface.

Have you ever looked at Findhorn's
Isle of Erraid community? It has a very interesting pre - Findhorn history. -Rudi

Erraid Community home page:

Erraid History
Is anyone familiar with how to start a new entry on Wikipedia?

Perhaps it is about time the Recommendation 666 and Article 666 got their own page.
Mark your calendar….


April 15-28, 2009

What could be billed as the "mother of all New Age gatherings" will bring together an assortment of “wisdom teachers”, traditional and not-so-traditional religious elders and shaman wannabes from diverse corners of the globe.

The "gathering" is scheduled to take place at various locations throughout northern Arizona, including at least one event on the Hopi mesas. The stated purpose of the "gathering" is to usher in “a new dawn” of global unity and understanding. The overtly new age event organizers plan on using the gathering to create a set of nine new “guidestones” to foist on humanity.

Several interesting “invitational videos” are available at this site:

Also see:

And just by coincidence, in at least one of the "invitational videos", a new age “mystic” by the name of Drunvalo Melchizedek (like Constance says folks, you just can’t make this stuff up!) mentions the celestial “blue sphere” that appeared on Oct. 24th. We must assume he is talking about the extraordinary energy spike given off by comet Holmes on Oct. 24, 2007. The bright blue halo of the comet did in fact become the LARGEST OBJECT IN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM, if only for a brief moment in time.

And if you can't actually attend the "gathering" in person, don't worry. You can participate from anywhere. The website explains:

"Whether attending the gathering physically or through private ceremony, everyone is being called to participate in this historic and extraordinary event. Through humanity's enlightenment, once again we will live in balance and harmony with Mother Earth. All is in divine timing!"

Sure is.
I clicked on ABC news before reading your blog and had a similar reaction to Obama:

In case no one posted it yet, here it is. Haven't read all comments.. If it's a duplicate my apologies..I'll have more to say ( as I usually do).

One of the things I do is scan a number of different news sites to get an impression what mainstream media is saying, so as many of you know I've been following the pope business, but today what I found interesting is the continued focus in these articles about the "interfaith dialogue"

The Catholic church has been accused of jeopardizing this with the reinstatement of Williamson, so the pope affirms his beliefs on the Shoah and tells Williamson that he must renounce his.. One thing I can say with certainty. The INTERFAITH DIALOGUE will NOT be jeopardized.

Moving on to Jerusalem Post, we have an article on a children's program that Hamas broadcasts calling for kids to by "martyrs" for the cause of Islam ( jihad):

Then a report on the word "terrorism" discussing when is terrorism another man's "freedom fighting on Al Jezeera:

It's very interesting if you begin to analyze the dialogue on religion and the change in perspective on conflict and war in the Middle East and other places.. There is a "global shift".

Both the Al Jazeera show and this article will draw parallels between the Protestant/Catholic or British -Irish Republic conflict in Northern Ireland:

Jerusalem Post is highlighting George Mitchell.. was he or wasn't he the responsible for the end of the conflict:

This dialogue is the discussion of the Clash of Civilizations, which came out of CFR a number of years ago, out of which developed the Alliance of Civilizations.

Oh yes, I forgot, on the EU today it is pretty much a
fait accompli that the Lisbon Treaty will be signed.. You can find out about it towards the end of this article:

It seems that the Czech presidency is making some realize that they need a more "permanent presidency".
This should surprise us, but the economic crisis is probably another factor that will force change.

It looks like Iceland, with their first Lesbian Prime Minister is in deep economic trouble and will now consider joining EU, which would give EU its first openly Lesbian PM, not too, too shocking for EU..

This paradigm shift where suddenly things are accepted that previously would have been unacceptable happens very quickly in times of crisis. Out of "chaos comes order" the famous adage..What was previous unacceptable seems to be an every day happening.

There will be 25 members of the Faith Advisory Council, including the individuals named in this article.
"...They will not be employed by The White House but rather the council will work closely with the Faith Based Office. In essence, this advisory Council is one part of the overall office. The advisory council will focus on ways to contribute to the common good and come up with ideas on how to improve public policy in all sorts of areas ranging from health insurance to poverty...."
Conservative Groups Lose Battle on "Religious Discrimination" Language in Stimulus Bill


Will government money make religious organizations toe the party line in the future?

Glad to hear that your husband's surgery went well.
Thank you Abba!

p.s. we'll keep praying for good recovery and strenghtened heart..

Just a couple of quick observations on the list of people from the Faith-based group of Obama is Eboo Patel works with the Alliance of Civilizations, and

Joel Hunter is one of the signers of the letter to Obama to divide Jerusalem. Perhaps some of the others here have observations about the list.

Oh by the way, here's the letter to Obama calling for Holy Land Peace. I'll have some more to say about this too:

There's actually quite a lot to look at here, but I'll just focus your attention on this link:

Chris Sieple who is a member of the CFR is connect to World Vision through his father who was President of World Vision,and the current President of World Vision is on Obama's faith committee. World Vision is part of the One Campaign, which nominated of all people, Bono
The Man of Peace. Bono was a World Server, and anyone familiar with Alice Bailey terminology will know instantly what that is:

Just a few connections there to get some of the people who do research here thinking...

An international force to watch over Jerusalem:

Zech. 12:2-3 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a acup 1that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. “It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

This could easily happen in our day..there are some other pieces that must happen first but we might be far off.

Robert A. Seiple, former head of World Vision, and his multi-faith council:

On the board of Churches for Middle East peace is a man named Landrum Bolling. He heads up the Lilly Endowment fund which gives large grants to numerous religious organizations. This is how the global corporations influence what is going on in the "faith community"..

He also works at Georgetown, where the Prince AlWaleed bin talal funded 20million for the Islamic Studies Center under John Esposito member of HLG of the UN's Alliance of Civilizations.

Here's his film, which I haven't watched yet, soo we'll find out where he's coming from together for those who want to watch:

Here's the foundation for Middle east peace who sponsored it:

just want to point out that the film has incredible biases and many would vehemently disagree with the conclusions, and I would be among those who disagree with the proposal.

The only solution is the Prince of Peace..
At 8.06pm Rudi said -


by Nancy Seifer and Martin Vieweg

"On the morning before Election Day, two conservative pundits on cable TV were discussing what they already sensed would be a political tsunami. Bewildered by the Obama phenomenon, they were trying to make sense of it. One said off-handedly, in a tone slightly tinged with cynicism, “If you look at the newspapers from around the world, you’d think that if Obama wins it’s going to be the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.”

In the February issue of the Last trumpet Newsletter, David Meyer said -

"The inauguration takes place on a day that is of vital importance in the world of witchcraft and occultism. Astrology is the time clock of Satan and his kingdom of demons, and it is impossible to practice witchcraft without it. January 20th, the day when Obama moves into his position of power, is the very day when the sun moves into the sign of Aquarius, the 11th sign of the zodiac. The hit song called "Aquarius" by the Fifth Dimension told the entire story of the day that would come that would bring change for a thousand years. Adolph Hitler also claimed that the Third Reich would last for a thousand years. Officially, it lasted only thirteen years and ended on the eve of Beltaine, the druid witches' New Year sabat." end quote.

This fact can easily be confirmed by a search using "Sun Aquarius January 20" on google.

So that is why they have the INAUGURATION on Jan 20th.

So the commentators above who said “If you look at the newspapers from around the world, you’d think that if Obama wins it’s going to be the dawning of the Age of Aquarius” knew exactly what they were talking about.


Thanks for sharing the good news about your husband's successful surgery, Constance.

Our prayers have been answered!!!
This paragraph from Obama's speech at the prayer breakfast concerns me:

"I didn’t become a Christian until many years later, when I moved to the South Side of Chicago after college. It happened not because of indoctrination or a sudden revelation, but because I spent month after month working with church folks who simply wanted to help neighbors who were down on their luck – no matter what they looked like, or where they came from, or who they prayed to. It was on those streets, in those neighborhoods, that I first heard God’s spirit beckon me. It was there that I felt called to a higher purpose – His purpose."

You don't "become" a Christian by doing good things and somehow "absorbing" salvation into yourself by some feel-good experiences.

That is the Christianity of the New Age.

Constance, you said the Europeans are waiting for the US to collapse so that global governance can get underway. (10:19 PM)

I agree, and would add that they aren't the only ones waiting for our collapse. Russia (and the rest of the anti-West Axis - Iran, N. Korea, China, Venezuela, etc) are waiting for exactly the same thing, so they can deliver the death blow to Capitalism, and institute their own version of a New International Order of Communism.

There are many questions in my mind yet about the timing of things; about the connectivity between the Axis above (with their plans of attack on the West) and the Eurozone Utopian planners with their plans of a New Age of Enlightenment; about how it all fits with Bible Prophecy; about many things!

How's this for a scenario (chronologically listed)?

1. The US economic crisis worsens, and our country goes into full-blown panic and crisis mode. Far-right extremist groups (some of whom have been infiltrated by Spetsnaz or other Russian agents - yes, the KGB is alive and well!) try to revolt against the government, whom they see as causing the whole mess. Obama calls a state of emergency, tries to quell the panic and rioting and whatever else is happening, and by doing so only exacerbates the problems.

2. While we become progressively weaker internally with all the chaos going on, we are attacked externally by Russia & Co. - either a direct attack or by proxy (Iran maybe), taking us out of the picture. (We will be reduced to Third World status.) There will most likely be nukes involved.

3. Russia & Co. are emboldened by this to invade Europe, and also the Middle East. (Who will stop them? The US?)

4. Solana grabs the reigns of power using the emergency powers given to him by Proposition 666 of the WEU (I think that's the provision) to take the lead in forming a European Army to repel the Russian & Co. invasion.

5. God miraculously defeats Russia & Co. before they can harm Israel.

6. Solana is left in power, to take over what is left of the world at that time. It could be quite a mess by then. Proclamations of the New Age are broadcast to the world - "No more war! The Barbarians are defeated - those who would not release their old ways..." etc etc, and the New Age religion will be unleashed upon the world as well.

I just need to sit down and see how that fits in with Bible prophecy, and also how it fits in with all threats on the horizon that are taking shape.

The Russia & Co. threat must be taken into account. I believe it WILL be a part of the approaching storm. I think it will somehow be the "precipitating factor" that brings Solana and the Euroweenies into power.

I do NOT think the rapture will be that precipitating event - a view made popular by the "Left Behind" series of books and movies.

We are entering a new age of barbarianism, which is attacking on many fronts. Heh, after all Constance, that WAS the gist of the title of your first book, was it not? :^)

OK, that was long. I wish there was a discussion forum here. Maybe I'll go post this over at FP.
Revision to point #6 above:

I would add that perhaps Solana will take credit for the destruction of Russia & Co., and perhaps even back up his statement with some "signs and wonders" of his own. Think of it - a proclamtion by him that "The evolutionary path that our world is about to go down prohibits the warrior mentality such as we have seen in Russia's attempt to conquer and destroy. The World Masters taking us in this new journey have destroyed them and will do so to all who upset the balance of world peace. That you may know I am not making this up, watch and see what I will do to prove it...."

Or something like that.
Hi Rudi,

I had not heard of Findhorn's Isle of Erraid community, but from the website it looks gnostic-pagan to the core.....especially with regard to
its "Erraid: Mabon (Autumn Equinox)
Saturday 12th September, 2009"

This is a time for reconciling opposites, to bring our different aspects into balance: male and female, dark and light, old and young. Let’s honour and celebrate our ‘whole self ’ and all life.

This "doctrine of opposites" is what the "Hegelian Dialectic" is founded on.

Of course the "Hegelian Dialectic" is a key component in the teachings of Karl Marx! Moreover, people who embrace the "Hegelian Dialectic" seldom think to ask: Upon what grounds is the "doctrine of opposites" assumed to be necessarily true???

Perhaps you will recall my comments in a previous post about why the "doctrine of opposites" is necessarily FALSE!!!

Regarding the Rosicrucian connection, the focus of my research for many years has been the occult revival of 19th-century Europe in general and of 19th-century France in particular.

In the occult world,(including the new Age Movement) an illusion has been created in terms of a "right wing" and a "left wing."

What I have been studying is mainly the so-called "right wing" of the new Age Movement which may be even more dangerous than the so-called "left-wing" in so far as it tricks itself out in the already-existing organizations it seeks to replace and uses them as front organizations from which to recruit "suitable" candidates into what they secretly manipulate said candidate into thinking is the "real deal." The exoteric front organization is only for the profane "little people" while the "higher" secret "esoteric" level of the organization is for the "enlightened elite few."

If you take a New Age organization and delve into its history, you will usually find that it has "morphed" from groups such as the Rosicrucians, Martinists, so-called "irregular" Freemasonry, neo-Gnostics etc.

Here are a couple of more links you might be interested in checking out if you haven't done so already.


The Rosicrucian Order Crotona Fellowship was a supposedly- Rosicrucian group founded by George Alexander Sullivan in about 1924. It may have existed under the name Order of Twelve from 1911-1914 and again from 1920.

The following site indicates that this Rosicrucian group still exists:

The following features an archive of articles related to the Rosicrucian Order Crotona Fellowship. LOL Caveat: don't be startled by any "voices" you might hear.

See also:


Note: Idries Shah, who is mentioned in the article above, wrote a book about Sufism - the gnosticised form of Islam.


Gerald Gardner (1884-1964), the reviver of British witchcraft (“Wicca”), claimed to have been initiated into traditional witchcraft through contacts he made at the rosicrucian theatre, though there is some debate about this. Gerald Gardner’s biography by Jack Bracelin (although said by Frederic Lamond to have been written by Idries Shah) mentions the group.



One more thing: The "female messiah" business associated with
Sheena Govan probably "evolved" out of the "utopian socialist" circles of 19th-century France begun by Saint-Simon and continued in persons like Enfintin and occultist Simon Ganneau whose disciples included Eliphas Levi and Flora Tristan.

... Saint-Simon seems to have foreseen the European Union, expecting however that England would take the lead in forming a continent sharing the same laws and institutions.


Bazard and his disciples broke with Enfantin's group. The latter became sole "father", leading a chiefly religiously-oriented movement, joined by new converts (according to Enfantin's estimate, the total number of followers would have reached 40,000). He wore on his breast a badge with his title of Père, was referred to by his preachers as "the living law", declared himself to be the chosen of God, and sent out emissaries in a quest of a woman predestined to be the "female Messiah," and the mother of a new Saviour (the latter quest was very costly and altogether fruitless).


The Christianity Obama
converted" to was Black Liberation Theology - which is Marxism tricked out in Christian wraps.



The Catholic Church has been infiltrated "Liberation Theology" as well. The behavior of many of the ringleaders of this so-called "theology" is redolent of the behavior of Judas Iscariot who disguised his avarice, his lust for power, his treachery and finally his betrayal of Christ with a kiss as a hypocritical "concern for the poor."


The "liberation theology" itself has about as little to do with "liberation" as it has to do with "theology" in so far as "theology" is the "science of God."
Anonymous 10:47 P.M.

The Supreme Master Ching Ha operated a vegan restaurant near me in Phoenix. I believe it opened in the late 80s.

She is an artist, and her work was on display there, along with info on the cult.

They had a tragic shooting there of one of the employees, as two men robed the place at gun point, and he resisted to some degree. I guess they figured correctly that in "gun toting Arizona", vegans probably were not packing.

They reopened over a year later, and as the neighbor hood grew worse they closed for good.

Don't know if they operate businesses any were else?

Thank you for these comments related specifically to the New Age movement. They are well well stated and greatly needed.

Two very good posts Feb 6, over at Slice today. Ingrid, "tells it like it is"!!!
Thank you Abba, for Constance's husbands successful surgery.
Constance -- FYI:

From Infowars (February 6, 2009

Stabenow: Dems May Hold Talk Radio “Accountability” Hearings

Michigan Democrat Debbie Stabenow talks with nationally syndicated talk host Bill Press about how she will push for hearings in the Seante to hold radio broadcasters accountable.

Democrat senator Debbie Stabenow has told nationally syndicated talk host Bill Press she will push for talk radio “accountability hearings” in order to impose government-mandated “balance” in the radio marketplace. According to the Gladwin, Michigan, senator the airwaves are “dominated by one view” that “overwhelms people’s opinions — and, unfortunately, incorrectly,” and said that “right-wing conservative talk hosts” are “trying to make people angry and saying all kinds of things that aren’t true and so on,” Radio Ink reports on February 5.

In other words, according to Stabenow, the American people are unable to formulate their own opinions and the government must do this for them. In order to facilitate this process, the Michigan senator pledges to “pass a standard” based on the revoked Fairness Doctrine. She will “bring these [radio network] owners in and hold them accountable” to an undefined “community interest,” that is to say the politically motivated interests of supposed “progressive” Democrats irate over the fact so called “conservatives” have dominated the airwaves for more than two decades.

Stabenow has adopted Obama’s “accountability” rhetoric for her plan to limit the First Amendment rights of talk radio broadcasters. During the election, Obama called for accountability on the part of Wall Street and Washington in regard to the supposed financial industry bailout bill.

“You know, we had something called the Fairness Doctrine, back until the eighties when it was removed, where where you had to have balance… and I think something that requires that in a market with owners that have multiple stations that they have got to have balance – there has to be some community uh, interest – balance, you know, standard that says both sides have to be heard,” Stabenow told Press.

Before hosting a “left-leaning liberal” nationally syndicated talk radio program, Bill Press was the chair of the California Democratic Party from 1993 to 199. He is receptive to Stabenow’s proposal to subject radio broadcasters to “accountability hearings.”

In 1986, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit concluded that the FCC was not required to apply the Fairness Doctrine. In August 1987, the FCC abolished the doctrine by a 4-0 vote. The FCC stated “the intrusion by government into the content of programming occasioned by the enforcement of [the Fairness Doctrine] restricts the journalistic freedom of broadcasters … [and] actually inhibits the presentation of controversial issues of public importance to the detriment of the public and the degradation of the editorial prerogative of broadcast journalists” and deemed the ruling unconstitutional.

On January 28, 2009, FCC Commissioner Robert McDowell told the Media Institute in Washington that it is “hard to tell if current calls for its return will gain traction or not. On the one hand, recently several prominent members of Congress have called for its restoration. Still others are strongly opposed to its revival.” McDowell also said any attempt to revive the Fairness Doctrine would face an uphill battle in the courts.

The Fairness Doctrine was on the minds of at least two members of the Senate Judiciary Committee during the January 15th confirmation hearing for Attorney General-Designate Eric Holder, who was subsequently confirmed. Both Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Alabama Republican Jeff Sessions asked Holder pointed questions about reinstating the doctrine. As [4] Michael G. Franc reported for NRO on January 23, Holder was at best evasive in answering questions. “The bottom line is beware,” Franc warned, “and stay tuned to your favorite talk radio host for further details!”

“I have already had some discussions with colleagues and, you know, I feel like that’s going to happen. Yep,” Stabenow assured Press.
From Inforwars (February 6, 2009):

Kissinger Sent to Russia to Cut New World Order Deal

It is yet another glaring example there is no difference between Bush, Obama, or anybody else anointed by the global elite to serve as presidential window dressing — the Daily Telegraph reports this morning that former Reichsminister of State and Rockefeller minion Henry Kissinger was dispatched by the Obama administration to talk with Russian president Dmitry Medvedev about reducing stockpiles of nuclear warheads.

“The decision to send Mr. Kissinger to Moscow, taken by Mr Obama when he was still president-elect, is part of a plan to overcome probable Republican objections in Congress,” reports Adrian Blomfield, Moscow correspondent for the British newspaper. It is said the “secret negotiations” were conducted in December.

Obama, of course, runs nothing and the reprehensible octogenarian war criminal Kissinger was dispatched on orders of the elite, not Obama. It is said Kissinger had a sit-down with former Russian boss Vladimir Putin at his country house outside of Moscow. “While the details of the ambitious initiative are yet to be revealed, the proposal to return to the negotiating table after eight years of reluctance in Washington has been welcomed in Britain and elsewhere,” reports the Daily Telegraph.

No doubt a fly on the wall of Putin’s country house would reveal other topics of discussion, as the elite and the military-industrial complex have made trillions on the phony “Cold War” and its subsequent permutations over the decades and really has no desire to slash nuclear warheads, not unless they can make a bunch of money in the process.

“Mr Obama apparently chose Mr Kissinger for his consummate diplomatic skills and his popularity in Moscow, an affection earned by his open acknowledgment of Russia’s international resurgence.”

Kissinger’s “consummate diplomatic skills” are well-known — over the years he has micro managed the bombing of small and defense countries and is responsible for the murder of millions of people, most notably a few million Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Indonesians. It is absurd to think Obama chose Kissinger or anybody else for that matter. Obama, like all previous presidents in the modern era, is little more than a wind-up doll with notable oratory skills and a knack for reading teleprompters.

Along with Obama foreign policy guru and notorious Russia-hater Zbigniew Brzezinski, Kissinger is a Rockefeller functionary and Trilateral Commission member. He is also a prominent Bilderberg member and long time member of the Council on Foreign Relations. He worked for the Rockefeller Brothers Fund as director of its Special Studies Project.

The CFR, Trilateral Commission, and the Bilderbergers have one objective — to create world government under the guise of a New World Order.

It is safe to say the meeting with Medvedev and Putin had more to do with the New World Order than reducing the number of nukes in Russia and the United States. Last month, Kissinger went on the pages of the International Herald Tribune and called for a New World Order. During an interview with CNBC’s Mark Haines and Erin Burnett on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, Kissinger said the anointment of Barack Obama represents an “opportunity” to create a New World Order “at a moment when there is upheaval in many parts of the world simultaneously,” never mind the fact these upheavals are orchestrated by the elite and the international bankers.

Of more immediate importance than any number of nuclear warheads is Russia’s strategic relationship with China and Iran and its relations with Cuba, Venezuela and Brazil. Moreover, Putin and the Russians have vehemently opposed the Soros/Freedom House/CIA sponsored revolutions in former Soviet republics and have signaled their intention to resist these globalist sponsored so-called revolutions. “A system of permanent revolutions, rose revolutions or some others, is the most dangerous,” Putin told Interfax on December 23, 2004, well before the U.S. orchestrated provocation in South Ossetia.

It is no secret, as well, the globalists are irked by Russia’s nationalization of the Yukos oil-producing division by Rosnfet. Putin became somewhat of a hero to the anti-globalist movement when he wrestled “power from multinational corporations, multilateral institutions, and the global economic system they promote,” as Liliana N. Proskuryakova described it. In addition, the Russians have consistently resisted the loan-sharking operations of the global elite, most notably in regard to the IMF and the World Bank. Between 2000 and 2004, Putin persistently refused to borrow from these institutions.

Now that the banksters and neolibs have managed to knock Russia and other oil-producing nations down a few notches — due largely to artificially induced falling oil prices — it is time for them to strike a new deal with Russia as the New World Order scheme gains momentum.

Thus it is fair to say Kissinger’s meeting with Medvedev and Putin had less to do with nuclear stockpiles than it had to do with offering a deal the Russians may not be able to refuse.

In short, Kissinger’s trip was likely what it appears to be — a meeting between mob bosses as they set about to carve up their respective spheres of influence.

Re:From the article you posted.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, a former National Security Advisor and well-known global strategist, saw the implications of Obama's election on a world scale. Speaking on cable TV a few days later, he said that he saw America as "the prototype of the universal society" and "a global pioneer."

Have you seen this January 30, 2009article from THE AUGUST REVIEW?


By Patrick Wood, Editor
January 30, 2009

As previously noted in Pawns of the Global Elite, Barack Obama was groomed for the presidency by key members of the Trilateral Commission. Most notably, it was Zbigniew Brzezinski, co-founder of the Trilateral Commission with David Rockefeller in 1973, who was Obama's principal foreign policy advisor.

The pre-election attention is reminiscent of Brzezinski's tutoring of Jimmy Carter prior to Carter's landslide election in 1976.

For anyone who doubts the Commission's continuing influence on Obama, consider that he has already appointed no less than eleven members of the Commission to top-level and key positions in his Administration. more....

See also

By Patrick Wood, Editor
August 5, 2008

This tiny island lies off the southern coast of the Isle of Mull where I live. A close neighbouring isle to Erraid is the Isle of Iona where many Scottish Kings are buried and allegedly the Book of Kells was scribed by St Columba's monks.

Iona is a place of pilgrimage for MANY Christians. Findhorn/Erraid have infiltrated Iona Abbey (to exactly what extent I cannot say) and have/do participate in their services. Soooo soooo sad. They also have at least one cottage on the Iona that they rent out.

For a lengthy but highly informative read on Erraid with a touch of Findhorn reference you might be interested in reading the articles on Carol Riddell's website.

Hi ~K~

Thank you for the link. The link from the main site to FINDHORN SPIRITUAL BASIS containing the article Study Paper on the Basis of Spirituality at the Findhorn Community by Carol Riddell, speaks volumes in terms of the beliefs of the Findhorn Community.
The late George Trevelyan was a key player/networker and has been described as the 'Father of the New Age' in the UK. He did much through his residential weekends and adult education to bring the na into an 'acceptable' light.

You can read his account which mentions his influencers here and many of his articles/books, one book of which is 'A Vision of the Aquarian Age'.

or tiny;

Thanks Susanna - it's been a year or so since I read all of Carol's site so I kept it vague as I wasn't sure how much Findhorn she mentioned ... Oh to have Constance's amazing power of recall! :)

George Trevelyan (the link I've just put up) had connections with Caddy and many others. He's almost like a bridge between two generations. George would have been what we over here call 'middle/upper class' so his realm of influence would have been far reaching.

Falling popularity

Mr Sarkozy's intervention comes amid drooping popularity at home.

Rising unemployment and a generally worsening economic situation propelled 2.5 million people to the streets in France last week, protesting against the government's reaction to the crisis.

The French president announced he would still continue with planned reforms, but also promised to scrap a so-called "professional tax" – a local corporate tax – next year, in a bid to stop key French industries, notably the auto sector, from moving elsewhere.
Is this what it has come to in America?

Software giant IBM is offering its recently laid-off employees jobs in 'growth markets' like India and Russia through a new program and will help with moving costs as well as provide visa assistance, media reports said.
Thanks Susanna for those additional articles by Patrick Wood. Very interesting!

~K~, I'm a bit envious of you, to be so blessed to live in such a beautiful part of the world - a place I have often dreamed of visiting. It IS sad that such an awesomely beautiful place, so rich in history and heritage, has also been so tainted by the seed of new age spiritually planted by others in more recent times. Reading the history of the Isle of Erraid turned several hours of an otherwise boring afternoon into something special. Thanks for sharing the link with us. -Rudi
Babylon Is Fallen
1After these things I saw another (A)angel (B)coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was (C)illumined with his glory.
2And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "(D)Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She (E)has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every (F)unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

3"For all the nations [a]have drunk of the (G)wine of the passion of her immorality, and (H)the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the (I)merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her (J)sensuality."

4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "(K)Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

5for her sins have (L)piled up as high as heaven, and God has (M)remembered her iniquities.

6"(N)Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the (O)cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

7"(P)To the degree that she glorified herself and (Q)lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, '(R)I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.'

8"For this reason (S)in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be (T)burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her (U)is strong.

Lament for Babylon
9"And (V)the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and (W)lived sensuously with her, will (X)weep and lament over her when they (Y)see the smoke of her burning,
10(Z)standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, '(AA)Woe, woe, (AB)the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in (AC)one hour your judgment has come.'

11"And the (AD)merchants of the earth (AE)weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more--

12cargoes of (AF)gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,

13and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and (AG)human lives.

14"The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

15"The (AH)merchants of (AI)these things, who became rich from her, will (AJ)stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

16saying, '(AK)Woe, woe, (AL)the great city, she who (AM)was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

17for in (AN)one hour such great wealth has been laid (AO)waste!' And (AP)every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, (AQ)stood at a distance,

18and were (AR)crying out as they (AS)saw the smoke of her burning, saying, '(AT)What city is like (AU)the great city?'

19"And they threw (AV)dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, '(AW)Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea (AX)became rich by her wealth, for in (AY)one hour she has been laid (AZ)waste!'

20"(BA)Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and (BB)apostles and prophets, because (BC)God has pronounced judgment for you against her."

21Then a (BD)strong angel (BE)took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, (BF)the great city, be thrown down with violence, and (BG)will not be found any longer.

22"And (BH)the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the (BI)sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

23and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the (BJ)voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your (BK)merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived (BL)by your sorcery.

24"And in her was found the (BM)blood of prophets and of saints and of (BN)all who have been slain on the earth."

Revelation 18 NASB

The more I read this, the more I see what is happening in the U.S. and the world, the more I believe the U.S. is allegorically Babylon. The woman that rides the beast.

David in B.C.
More on Obama’s timing….

Not that any of us should care what wiccans or astrologers think, but it looks to me like someone in Obama’s inner circle may indeed be timing Obama’s major moves with significant astral events.

Feb. 24, 2009 is going to be a very busy day for astronomers. We already know that the highly unusual comet Lulin will be at closest approach to earth, with viewing possibilities particularly favorable thanks to the new moon, which also occurs on that same date.

In wiccan and shamanistic tradition the new moon lunar phase signifies a most favorable time to go in a new direction or begin a new enterprise.

Astrologically speaking, the morning of Feb. 24, 2009 is apparently also a MVOC (Moon Void of Course) phase, which is NOT viewed as an opportune time to begin a new project or go in a new direction. According to most astrologers, ambitious projects begun during MVOC are doomed to failure. The MVOC is however considered a good time for assessing one’s current situation, for reflection and meditation on current events as well as a good time to acknowledge past accomplishments and/or failures. I’m sure Obama’s speech will be given in prime time, which means, that as far as I’ve been able to determine, it will be initiated well after the MVOC ends. (But I could be mistaken about this detail, I’m simply unwilling to research the “astrology” aspect any further.)

The fact is that Obama’s highly anticipated speech on February 24th, 2009, before both houses of Congress, an extremely nervous American public, and an adoring world audience, will be performed in conjunction with the closest earth approach of a highly unusual comet (Lulin), a new moon lunar phase, and just after an MVOC (dead) period.

It’s probably all just a coincidence.

Or not.
I just discovered a really first rate Catholic analysis of the New Age Movement and its most important goal - promote the antichrist:

Save it and read it. Brilliantly done by its author!

A "new" bumper sticker caught my attention today.....

"Loving Kindness is my religion"
That's nice that they have a good analysis of the New Age, but I'd like to point your attention to several things from their website, and I also want to examine a little about exactly who is SSPX because if we miss that, we might miss the whole point of what she's really trying to say.

Here are some quotes from their site:
"Before answering such enormity, I would like to consider the question of the membership in the Church. One of the most important Catholic beliefs is that “out of the Church, there is no salvation.” But now, Catholics are told that members of other religions don’t have to convert, but rather that they should dialogue and be friendly with them. This new concept is called Ecumenism. As a result, many Catholics think that everybody goes to heaven, no matter what religion they belong to".

"Such truth is more or less ignored or forgotten in the mainstream Roman Catholic Church. On the contrary, Catholics are being told that they should not consider other religions (other faiths) as displeasing God and leading to hell. Now, under the name of Ecumenism, Catholics are encouraged to be friendly with other religions"

I encourage everyone to take a look at this website.. The SSPX is the group that Williamson, the Shoah denier is from, not that they are condoning his actions, but what they want the Mass to be in Latin, they object to the Vatican II move to ecumenism because they believe salvation is in the "Catholic Church" not in Yeshua. The believe the "sacraments of the Catholic Church must be fulfilled" i.e. eucharist, baptism ( sprinkling infants) confirmation, holy matrimony, extremunction ( last rites) etc...

This is the kind of church that Mel Gibson who did the Passion of Christ was affiliated with. His father was also a shoah denier if my memory serves me.

Their objection is not only to the New Age, but to anyone who is not part of the Catholic Church and the traditional Catholic Church that still says the Mass in Latin..

So while the author of this article points out a lot of truth about the NAM, we have to look to understand the context of what she is saying and why she is saying it. It is her defence of the "traditional Catholic Church" prior to Vatican II.. Now mind you, I don't believe the teachings of Catholicism either before or after Vatican II, but we must analyze in the context of who SSPX is what her intentions are for writing the article besides the obvious, to expose New Age Movement but also to prove her belief that there is no other salvation except in the Catholic Church:

A quote from her article:
"Should we ask Rome to make a public declaration about the NAM, and to denounce its errors and snares? Unfortunately for us, the Mystery of Iniquity at work in the Church for decades makes her appear as the embryo of the New World Religion. This pantheistic, naturalistic and humanistic religion wants to change man into a god, the center of the Universe. Already, forty years ago, the Conciliar Church was putting down the mask at the very end of Vatican II:"

What she's saying if I am reading her write, is Vatican II opened the door for the New Age Movement and so the article works affirms albeit indirectly that "salvation is in no other religion, but Catholicism".

I happen to agree that Vatican II which opened the door for ecumenic relations is a door into New Age Movement, but I absolutely disagree with the statements by SSPX about salvation being in the Catholic Church, so the context of this article is very important, and also the historical changes that have happened paving the way for all this ecumenic unity. When you understand it in context, it may point out some things that are true about New Age, but for the wrong reasons.

I would have to say with all the apparent truths in the article which many of us are already familiar with obscure her motivation for writing the article, which is there is only salvation in the traditional Catholic Church and their sacraments, so in the end she ends up being way off target.
For those not familiar here is one of the key documents from Vatican ruling..I'll have more to say on this later...

Obama's election had a bigger impact on 'the Global Consciousness' than 911:
Dear Constance,

Thank you for posting that link.

If this is the same as the SSPX article about the New Age Movement, I think your link to said SSPX article ran off the page and people are not being linked directly to the article.

Here is the "tiny url" version of that article.


By Patricia MacLean

July-September, 2004

For those who are interested here is the explicit doctrine of the traditional Catholic Church i.e. SSPX on matters of salvation:

If you don't want to bother reading it, it says salvation is not possible outside the Catholic Church..That is there uncompromising position. What is interesting is that now the Catholic Church which has accepted Vatican II and has liberalized, presumably their views on this, is welcoming back into the fold this group who unapologetically says, "no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church". So now we have an interesting problem..which teaching of the Catholic Church represents Catholicism.?

The reason this is interesting is because the article Constance posted earlier is blaming the philosophy of Vatican II, which SSPX comes from the French Revolution or the Freemasons for the entry of New Age doctrine into the Catholic Church.. So then we would have to suppose that "true" Catholicism or "traditional" Catholicism says there is no salvation apart from the Roman Church, thus the "orthodox" Catholic position is this..

You can read SSPX founder Archbishop Lefebvre's explanation for the split, who was the French Catholic founder of SSPX.

It looks a little bit like the classic Hegelian dialectic at work again. Follow me on this:

1.Thesis, the only true church is the Roman Catholic Church
2. Anti-thesis. Under Vatican II, we can take a more relaxed view and enter into dialogue with other faiths and accept them as "travelers along parallel routes".

3 Synthesis. We reconcile these opposing views thus bringing together under one roof the two opposing views thus creating a paradigm shift which says that the Catholic Church for the sake of unity will accept those who are traditionalists and believe in their exclusivity and those who have had this opening of allowing interfaith dialogue, sharing communion with Protestants, Charismatic Catholics, non-uniform practice, opening to other religions, ,etc, etc,..

All of the questions about the ultimate reconciliation are not finalized yet, but the excommunication has been we have the beginning of the process.

I'm not so much concerned with the internal matters of the Catholic Church as much as the process which is one we are seeing all over the place today in the Interfaith Dialogue. The differences between these two branches of Catholicism may be vast and the criticism might be deep, but for the sake of unity they will try to arrive at some amicable solution to the obvious problems in their doctrinal differences which will allow them to co-exist. At the same time the post Vatican II church which has been accused of New Age infiltration, not by me but by members of SSPX is not likely to pull away from its Interfaith activities..

What I am trying to illustrate through this example of the Catholic Church, which goes on in many other areas of society is the paradigm shift that takes place through this dialectical process.

Our society has been so transformed by this kind of
debate that we have acceptance of ideas that would never have co-existed in the past.. and then the real confusion comes because Post-Modernism comes along and says we can't know anything with certainty.. and deconstructs our traditional ways of looking at things.

I don't want to focus here on the Catholic Church so much as the process of change and how these kinds of dialogues that take place today all over nowadays which are leading to the synthesis. Change agents are very aware of the dialectical process and use it quite effectively.

When we bring controversies into the public forum the door is open for the process to begin. Controversy and dialogue in and of themselves are not bad, but if the process is deliberately designed to facilitate change then we should pay attention lest we risk getting swept into the process unaware.

Hi ~K~ ,

I have to echo Rudi in saying that I am envious (with a "holy envy" of course)of the place where you live as well.

My husband and I are still planning on visiting Ireland and Scotland. It will probably have to be done in two trips. I have a friend who lives near the border, and she has sent me many things related to my clan.

Among my most treasured Scottish clan keepsakes is a silver chieftan's badge for my clan which I usually wear on the lapel of my blazer - since I don't usually go around wearing full Scottish regalia. I hope that this is not considered too declasse in Scotland! LOL

As for Sir George Trevelyan, his confreres actually refer to him as "the GRANDFATHER of the movement for spiritual regeneration in Britain." Moreover, he DID have ties to Peter Caddy.

In 1965, Peter Caddy attended a meeting of other spiritual group leaders organized by George Trevelyan, later the founder of the Wrekin Trust.

The visit with Trevelyan became a catalyst for the formal organization of the Findhorn Community, which was to become an object of pilgrimage. Its fame was generated by the extraordinary results of the garden, which was producing growth out of season and spectacularly large vegetables, in spite of the harsh climate.

The garden became the visible focus of the paranormal and miraculous claims that grew up around the small but growing community. Caddy's channeled messages were published in a small volume, God Spoke to Me, and McLean, who had begun to channel, also published her messages.

Trevelyen founded Wrekin Trust in 1971.

As one of the articles from the site you sent indicates, Trevelyan was also a member of the Anthroposophical Society founded in 1912 by Rudolph Steiner. He reportedly joined the Anthroposophical Society in the 1940's.

Trevelyan not only helped to inspire the FINDHORN TRUST, but he also helped to inspire THE TEILHARD DE CHARDIN SOCIETY and THE ESSENE NETWORK.

Anthroposophy was the group Rudolph Steiner founded when he split from the Theosophical Society founded by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky.

Like many other occultists of his day such as Papus, Peladan and others, Steiner advocated an "occidental" (western) tradition embodied in so-called "esoteric Christianity" as opposed to the "oriental" occultism emphasized by Blavatsky and her successors.

By 1907, a split between Steiner and the mainstream Theosophical Society began to be apparent. While the Society was oriented toward an Eastern and especially Indian approach, Steiner was trying to develop a path which embraced Christianity and natural science. The split became irrevocable when Annie Besant, then president of the Theosophical Society, began to present the child Jiddu Krishnamurti as the reincarnated Christ. Steiner strongly objected and considered any comparison between Krishnamurti and Christ to be nonsense; many years later, Krishnamurti also repudiated the assertion. Steiner's continuing differences with Besant led him to separate from the Theosophical Society Adyar; he was followed by the great majority of the membership of the Theosophical Society's German Section, as well as members of other national sections.


In the following article on MODERN ROSICRUCIAN GROUPS, we read:

Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO) was originally founded by Carl Kellner [1850-1905], Heinrich Klein [-1913] & Franz Hartmann [1838-1912] around 1895. Albert Karl Theodor Reuss Willsson [1855-1923] succeeded Kellner as chief in 1902, and not until this point did it become a real operative order. While Kellner had travelled in the Orient, and brought back with him Tantric knowledge and such, Reuss was more a typical continental occultist and «fringe-Mason». Among else, he was chartered by Westcott of HOGD,(Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn) John Yarker [1833-1913] of the Memphis-Mizraim, and a co-founder of Leopold Engel [1858-1931] in the revived Illuminati Order.

Reuss energic efforts spread the OTO throughout the world. Many famous occultists of the time were in one way or the other linked to Reuss or the OTO, as for instance; Papus, Rudolph Steiner, Jack W. Parsons, Ron L. Hubbard, Gerald Gardner, George Plummer, Israel Regardie, Ben Kadosch (Carl Willhelm Hansen) [1872-1936], Heinrich Traenker, Friedrich Mellinger [1890-1970] and many many more. It was brought to the Americas by Charles Stansfeld Jones (Frater Achad) [1886-1950], an excentric character who propagated the dawn of the aeon of Maat. Jones was also invovled in Rosicrucian activities, and there are orders today claiming to derive from Jones. OTO postulated that it consisted of a large number of esoteric tradtitions, and they never really emphazised the Rosicrucian aspect above the other elements of it. It was only during the reign of Reuss, that it was considered Rosicrucian - by Reuss, Hartmann and Krumm-Heller, as well as by some other occultists outside the OTO. Representatives of the latter have referred to the OTO as «Antiquus Arcanus Ordo Rosæ Rubeæ & Aureæ Crucis». This did not stop them from organizing a seperate body within the OTO called "L'Ordre des Rose-Croix Esoteriques", which was listed among the participators of the esoteric spiritual and Masonic convention of 1908. It is interesting to notice also, that Krumm-Hellers FRA was operating as an OTO branch. In fact, Reuss explained the «Rosicrucian roots of OTO» in one of his letters (1921) to H. S. Lewis. Lewis was also admitted into the OTO by Reuss personally, but distanced himself a time after Crowley took over as head of the order.

Another influence on Steiner - and through him on Trevelyan and Findhorn - was the Marquis Alexandre Saint-Yves d’Alveydre who first introduced the underground realm of Agarttha.


Pay special attention to the term "Synarchy/ Synarchism" - a concept developed by d"Alveydre - in terms of its being defined as "rule by a secret elite."
Here are some interesting links on the intereligious dialogue:


From the Global Dialogue Institute site which has a lot on it:

In merging their respective life-long work in dialogue, Professors Leonard Swidler and Ashok Gangadean are the Founder-Directors of the Global Dialogue Institute.

For those of you who might not remember Ashok Gangadean is from Awakening Mind, which is linked to Ervin Laszlo:

So Leonard Swidler, is linked directly to the New Age Movement.
White House plans to take over census bureau
Get Ready For the U.S. Census Fight, Chicago-style

While most are concerned about the counts of various groups which would lead to redistricting, I remember there was concern about very invasive questions that were asked at the time of the last census.

Here's a sample questionnaire:
One more site.

hi everyone, this is tony in vermont. Constance i'm glad to know your husband is getting thru all the illness. I pray and believe Our Father will uphold him and give him a substantial healing. God bless you Barry. I remember meeting him and thinking what a nice guy he is. i am just commenting here now because i got this notion come across my mind of something unrelated to this particular post but most certainly related to our beloved interest in bible prophecy. The IMAGE of the beast/project bluebeam holographic imagery. God Allmighty does all of this leave me with an awesome sense of wonder!.......and JOY at the real-ization of it all coming to pass. Because of Christ in me i say "bring it on"...and because of Christ in me i stand STRONG. THANK YOU FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN...THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE. thank you Constance for your Brilliant research, so fascinating! I guess project bluebeam is the active ingredient in the armageddon script. WOW! Blessings to you all, Tony.
Regarding the change over from analog to digital Feb. 17th.

My husband has worked in the telecom industry for almost 40 years. I recently asked him about the change over and why they are doing it, since it is inconveniencing so many people and is less than optimum in terms of the signal received in certain rural areas.

I had just watched something on PBS news where they interviewed a woman from the Wall Street Journal and she explained that in some places the digital signal is indeed weaker than analog and it will force people to get cable TV, order to keep receiving certain channels. So the interviewer said , "Well with all the trouble and extra expense it will cost some people, why is the gov't doing this?"

She replied that they are doing that so that the gov't can sell bandwidth to companies that make fancy gadgets like Iphones etc. who then in turn can have more bandwidth to use so that we Americans can have more fancy little gizmos that have the capability to play more video games and download more movies, etc.

That answer bothered me, and so I asked my husband what he thought about it. He said that he didn't believe that what she had just said was true, and that he had heard through people he knows in the industry that the government wants and needs that bandwidth so they can have their own secure private network. In other words, they will use the spectrum of bandwidth to create a private network between all interlocking government agencies- state, local and national. It will be totally secure for government usage only.

What he said seems to make sense, especially if they are anticipating some sort of incident that will trigger the need for marshal law, etc. He said it would also mean the Gov't could have the capability to more easily monitor everyone on a digital frequency; that it was harder with people on separate frequencies and analog networks, etc.

With the update around the corner, I thought I'd mention this.

I believe someone from this blog left this link recently, though I can't recall who it was.

But I think this is one of the finest compilations of New Age info on the Internet right now and covers the movers and shakers that you frequently talk about. It doesn't have the problems with the site that you cited earlier, in which the writer talks about the NAM from the perspective of a Catholic that believes the Catholic church is the only way to salvation.

Thanks for pointing that out to us, Joyce. What do you think of this link instead? It's also Catholic, by the way. But I felt it had extremely valuable information put together that could be sent out to friends and families, etc.
Congress Postpones Transition To Digital TV Until June-
"Washington - Congress voted Wednesday to delay the controversial transition to digital television to June 12th, 2009. If you are confused, confounded or just not ready for the switch to digital TV, you have nearly four more months to get ready."


We've got some extra time yet...

By His Grace,
RUDI SUSANNA - Findhorn/Trevelyan

I am indeed very fortunate to live in such a ruggedly beautiful part of the world. It is a truly humbling place to be. :)

I've just come across this site for the first time;

On the About us page it claims;

"The Psychosynthesis and Education Trust is the longest established psychosynthesis centre in Britain. It was founded in 1965 by 'the father of psychosynthesis', Roberto Assagioli, together with Sir George Trevelyan, Dr Martin Israel and Geoffrey Leytham. Lady Diana Whitmore lead the Trust from 1980 and is now the President."

They are running a session at Findhorn.


I came across this connection with Trevelyan through an article at;

or tiny,

The article is disturbing and confuses me with it's overwhelming mass of information. It is about ARK "an international charity whose purpose is to transform children's lives".

Have you happened to come across either of these in your research?

Thanks 5:51 Thanks for the information. The New Age community is certainly working very hard to create the illusion of a consensus that really doesn't exist. This parallels the efforts of the Obama Democrats as they attempt to create the illusion of a consensus around the Stimulus package.

I put information on the previous thread showing how cult manipulation works, and I linked to a website where an article appeared showing how even academics can be taken in.

One common way to attack the New Age movement is to say "My belief system is right; all others are wrong. New Age is another belief system and so it's wrong. Here are New Age organizations and people, and they're wrong. They are my enemies."

Harder, but more necessary, is to prove why the New Age movement is dangerous, why it appeals to individuals who may be intelligent. You can bet that those who promote New Age have studied the necessary techniques and are using them. Don't assume that each organizational leader is working with ideas they've developed on their own.

Although it may be tedious, the serious researcher needs to understand how cult mentality works. There is a book by Gita Meta called Karma Cola. It's a pop study of the guru movement in India. I'm calling attention to the book because it mentioned that intelligence services from other countries were coming to study the methods of the cults there.

While serious study of the New Age movement may not be necessary for most readers of this blog, it is necessary to know there are many not reading here who are in the academic world and are dealing with the issue of New Age. The issue in that community presents in a more complex manner.

While attempting to learn more about the cult mentality at
where there is information about academic cult apologists, I found this article

where Peter Kratz who wrote a book on the parallels between New Age and the Nazi movement is accused of being a communist.
"radle of National-Socialism.

The alleged Nazi angle of the New Age movement is a favourite theme of Communist scholars looking for crypto-Nazis to "expose", and for ways to reduce every debate to an "anti-fascist" issue (reductio ad Hitlerum) in order to recreate forever the moral power equation of the 1940s when democratic anti-Communists like Churchill were forced to support Stalin; and of Evangelicals trying to score points against competitors on the religion market. "

Or how would serious readers here explain the criticism of Findhorn on this obvious New Age site.

Yes, there are answers, but what I am trying to point out is that the complexity of the topic makes serious study necessary for those who wish to warn others about the movement.
Leonard Swindler, ooops, SWIDLER, is most assuredly a leader in the New Age and Religious Apostasy cum "New World Religion" movements. I have tracked him for a very long time and he seems to be virtually everywhere -- a hero to apostate Australian Catholics, the Alliance of Civilizations, Club of Rome (he is exceedingly close to Jordan's Prince Hassan who either heads or recently headed the Club of Rome.

I have often written about Swidler and he and his friends sometimes about me:

My perspective -- What Constance thinks: April 2006News and views of Constance Cumbey concerning "Radical Middle", .... including but not limited to prominent New World Religion proponent Leonard Swidler. ... - 68k - Cached - Similar pages -
My perspective -- What Constance thinks: Battle for the Catholic ...News and views of Constance Cumbey concerning "Radical Middle", ... including but not limited to prominent New World Religion proponent Leonard Swidler. ... - 302k - Cached - Similar pages -
My perspective -- What Constance thinks: ARE THESE JAVIER SOLANA'S ...Constance Cumbey : 1:43 PM. Regards LEONARD SWIDLER, another one of my 'favorite' [NOT] authors, sometimes I think God gives us our names with a sense of ... - 186k - Cached - Similar pages -
My perspective -- What Constance thinks: April 2006News and views of Constance Cumbey concerning "Radical Middle", ..... including but not limited to prominent New World Religion proponent Leonard Swidler. ... - 47k - Cached - Similar pages -
My perspective -- What Constance thinks: HAVE HILLARY CLINTON'S ... - 2 visits - 7/16/08May 19, 2008 ... Constance Cumbey : 9:32 AM. The GLOBAL DIALOGUE INSTITUTE is Leonard Swidler and his academic assistant, Ingrid Shafer's operation. ... - 329k - Cached - Similar pages -
My perspective -- What Constance thinks: EARTHQUAKES IN VERY ...News and views of Constance Cumbey concerning "Radical Middle", ...... apparently has ties with Leonard Swidler was barred by Cardinal Roger Mahoney from ... - 301k - Cached - Similar pages -
Assessing the Countercult - Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, and David M ...87—92), Constance Cumbey, and Dave Hunt—major exhibits of the more irrational ... witnessing more effective—hardly the agenda [Leonard] Swidler had in mind. ... - 79k - Cached - Similar pages -
Assessing the Countercult - Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, and David M ...87—92), Constance Cumbey, and Dave Hunt—major exhibits of the more irrational ... witnessing more effective—hardly the agenda [Leonard] Swidler had in mind. ... - 78k - Cached - Similar pages -
Assessing the Countercult - Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, and David M ...87—92), Constance Cumbey, and Dave Hunt—major exhibits of the more irrational ... witnessing more effective—hardly the agenda [Leonard] Swidler had in mind. ... - 74k - Cached - Similar pages -
Assessing the Countercult - Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, and David M ...87—92), Constance Cumbey, and Dave Hunt—major exhibits of the more irrational ... witnessing more effective—hardly the agenda [Leonard] Swidler had in mind. ... - 79k - Cached - Similar pages -
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Berit Kjos has an article highlighting "Global Events 2009, A Calendar of Events on World Change". A quick perusal of the list of cities on the globe that are hosting events are: Riyadh, Saudi Arabia; Arosa, Switzerland; Santa Fe, New Mexico; Belem, Brazil; New Delhi, India; Brussels, Belgium, etc.
or here-

What I didn't expect to see, was my little suburb in Arizona listed as one, among the various cities, hosting one of these major global conferences.
I always expect to see these things coming from the lovely city of Sedona, but my city?!
Quite a "prestigious" line-up of guests at this thing as well. The prices are steep to get in. If I can afford it, it might be an interesting event to check out. I'm the kind of chick that likes to hear things "straight from the horses mouth", so to speak. ;-)

The Hilton, Mesa,AZ,
May 14-17,2009
"The Awakening Conference - A Voice for Change - series presents the most influential and inspirational voices on our planet today, Including:
Dr. Jean Houston, Marianne Williamson, Dr. Joe Vitale, Dan Millman, Dr. Patch Adams, Don Miguel Ruiz, Rhonda Britten, Sophie Uliano, Tammy Holmes, and many others including great break out speakers and musicians such as Faith Rivera, Jason and Demarco, and Bliss from London. It's a body, mind and Spirit feast: Be the change you want to see. Step past limitation into harmonic abundance. Take the most amazing ride on the planet into Wholeness!"


By His Grace,


You were right in smelling a rat, ~K~.

If you check out the following, you will see that so-called "psychosynthesis" is more a kind of esoteric "religion" tricked out in "scientific" terminology however much Assagioli insisted it was authentically "scientific."

Psychosynthesis departed from the empirical foundations of psychology in that it studied a person as a personality and a soul but Assagioli continued to insist that it was scientific. Assagioli developed therapeutic methods other than what was found in psychoanalysis.

It would appear that Assagioli had ties with Carl Jung, many of whose own teachings in psychology were believed to have been inspired by his "spirit guide" named "Philemon."

Jung was also involved with gnosticism.

The following article states that Assagioli was not only friends with Carl Jung, but also with an Italian intellectual named Giovanni Papini.

Assagioli had a broad interest in philosophy and culture and participated in groups of young liberal free thinkers in the Florence of that time. He was one of the most active editors of the cultural magazine “Leonardo” in Florence up to 1907. The magazine was the meeting place for the young intellectuals of Florence. It was founded in 1903 by one of his closest friends, self-educated author and intellectual Giovanni Papini.

Regarding his friendship with Carl Jung:

Already while working in Zürich, he was absorbed in psychological studies with a special interest in the works of William James and Henri Bergson. Here he met with Carl Gustav Jung and befriended him. According to Assagioli himself, it was Jung’s psychology which was closest to Psychosynthesis. (Read the article: Jung and Psychosynthesis)

Giovanni Papini was a rather unsavory character. The minute I saw his name in the article I recalled reading about him elsewhere in my research. Some writers have suggested that Papini may have been a Luciferian.



But here is the kicker!!!

But to establish his (Assagioli's) true spiritual affiliations, Theosophy is the stronger candidate. He was a close friend of esoterist Alice Bailey and joined her Arcane School by the beginning of the 30’s. He also wrote the foreword to the Italian edition of Alice Bailey’s commentary to Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras. (Photo: Assagioli with Alice Bailey and collaborators)

He did not want publicity about this, because he wanted to be seen as a scientist, first and foremost. When psychologist Jim Fadiman visited Assagioli in 1972, he noticed a portrait of Madame Blavatsky, the founder of Theosophy, in his waiting room. Answering the question, why it was necessary to be silent about his esoteric affiliations Assagioli said, “It is my religion, and until I die I want silence about it.” (Schuller, 1988)

It is to be noted that Carl Jung's involvement with a "spirit guide" named "Philemon" or with gnosticism was not revealed - I think until after his death - for the same reason Assagioli's Blavatsky connections were not revealed.

When all is said and done, these quacks appear to have been fraudulently promoting their occultism as valid medical science.

I will see what I can find on Dr. Martin Israel, Geoffrey Leytham and Lady Diana whitmore.


Martin Israel passed away in November, 2007. Here is an Obituary from the TIMES ONLINE:

Here is an article from THE PARANORMAL REVIEW entitled:


ENGLAND. The death, on 23 October, of the Rev Dr Martin Israel, 80, has robbed us of a man many regarded as Britain’s most influential medium. That is certainly the view of Leslie Price, founder of PsyPioneer Newsletter, who gives us the following account of the enormous contribution made by the pioneering Anglican priest.

The Rev Dr Martin Israel received a long and respectful obituary in The Daily Telegraph, as befitted a leading Anglican writer on the spiritual life. But it could only hint at his position as the most influential medium in Britain, by noting: “He was particularly sensitive to other people’s psychic needs and to the presence of evil. He also claimed to have contact with the dead.”

Martin’s spontaneous mediumship was present throughout his life in the sense that dead people visited him from time to time. Much of his literary work came by what he called “a kind of Spiritualism”, that is, he wrote it inspirationally. more...

Here, Martin Israel describes his investigation into the occult and mentions Roberto Assagioli:

Meanwhile I was studying the works of C. G. Jung in depth, and to these I added the insights of contemporary existential and humanistic psychologists. The writings of Abraham Maslow, Viktor Frankl, and Roberto Assagioli were of great importance. Of the psychoanalytic school Jung was pre-eminent in stressing the reality of the spiritual side of man's conscious life. Frankl, an Austrian Jew who had spent three years in Auschwitz, Dachau, and two other German concentration camps and had had time to meditate on the meaning of his life which seemed to be miraculously preserved in the face of the carnage around him, introduced into psychology the importance of meaning as the basis of fulfilled living. He called his system "Logotherapy." Maslow recognised the spiritual dimension as the final flowering of the full personality of man in the process he called "self-actualisation". The most important of all to me was the still little-known Italian psychiatrist Assagioli, who used meditation in psychotherapy and who understood the importance of the will as no other psychologist had previously done. He had a profound knowledge of Eastern religion, and incorporated Raja Yoga techniques into his system, which he called "Psychosynthesis" entire chapter....

See also:

The writings of both Roberto Assagioli and Martin Israel are listed as publications of the SCHOOL FOR ESOTERIC STUDIES.
I am not saying that there is a connection with Joyce who blogs here because Joyce who blogs here says she was raised as a Catholic.

If there is to be criticism of followers of various religions, it's time to look at how some individuals come to the messianic movement.

"I was born in New York, in an upper middle class Jewish community. My parents, although agnostic, attempted to instill within me a Jewish identity.
At the age of five, I began attending Sunday School at our synagogue, and was greatly impressed with the very real presence of God in the temple sanctuary. At the same time, I wondered where He was once the service ended."

So how did Joyce end up as a messianic?

Enter Elliot, her very soon to be formerly Jewish academic professional husband who wrote,
"One day I ventured into the woods just north of Helsinki, Finland. I really needed to find some answers. The undercurrents of dissatisfaction I had experienced evolved into an awareness of the emptiness of my life. I was caught up in a vicious circle; each diversion I chose to fill the vacuum of my life resulted in only temporary satisfaction and I was soon searching for the next "kick."

"When I was ready to leave the woods, I found myself hopelessly lost, both spiritually and physically. I did not have the answer to life's questions. In desperation, I cried out to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Yeshua (Jesus) revealed Himself to me."

He found his next "kick" while communing with nature.

He continues, "A new secretary named Joyce was hired to help me in my work. I was attracted to her and we soon became friends. Six months later, she too entered into a personal relationship with Messiah."

Now Joyce was an activist.
Joyce writes, "At the University of Cincinnati I met people who were members of a political organization called "Students for a Democratic Society" (SDS). This was a Communist oriented group based on Marxist-Leninist theory. When I joined their ranks, I hoped that we would help each other to become better human beings and to alleviate the injustices of society.... I felt wretched! I was sentenced to thirty days in jail. My father's desire to appeal kept me from immediate incarceration....After obtaining an interview for the position, I was subsequently hired and began to work for a young attorney named Elliot Klayman.

"Within three weeks our "working" relationship was developing into a close friendship. Elliot shared with me the experience he had the previous year in Finland, which had redirected the course of his life. I was filled with hostility at his acknowledgement of faith in Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus, the Messiah) and retorted, "I was born an atheist and will always be an atheist." ...Although I tried to reject what Elliot was saying, my curiosity was aroused and I found myself actually asking God if Yeshua really was His Son. One evening, after spending a short time in prayer in the privacy of my own room, I opened up a Bible. The page I turned to quite unintentionally contained Psalm 22 which I had never read before. When I read, "They pierced my hands and feet... " I knew who the Messiah and Saviour was and what I had to do with this truth. I surrendered my life to Yeshua.

Now this Joyce is not an intellectual. She doesn't bother to do any checking on what Judaism says even though she was raised as a Jew.

She claims to have had an "aha" moment, just as her university professor boss had, and it changed her life. She married him. A paralegal made a nice catch.

Now the above has to be taken with a bit of scepticism because they are both selling a philosophy they now have a vocational stake in.
Both are very active in the messianic movement. It seems to me that intellectual rationalization came after the emotional experience had affected their views.

Why bother to sell an religious package when the "aha" moment is necessary?

"Aha" moments are very common among cult followers. It's where an emotional viewpoint makes one accept ideas that are not rational, though an attempt to rationalize them appears later.

More later.
Anon:9:54 PM

What the ... are you hoping to accomplish by posting such a ridiculous, comment??? Never mind it's obvious. Grow up.
No Rudi, these are quotes from the link I gave. I'm analyzing the messianic movement. More later.
10:46 Anonymous
Do you know something we don't know? I wouldn't presume to say that the Joyce who posts here is the same person as the one who gave information at the link. I've assumed that the Joyce who posts here is using a false name and we know nothing about her other than she is a messianic who was raised a Catholic.
Hi Susanna,
I bring up this issue with all due respect. I do have grave concerns regarding all
of the Interreligious dialoging taking place, however my immediate concern is related to something else.
Is Maryknoll “recognized” and in good standing with Pope Benedict /Roman Catholic Church/Orthodox Roman Catholic teaching? How does one “ participate in various ways with” while at the same time “hold no responsibility for the content”of organizations it is working with and recommending. One very serious example would be The Earth Charter. The Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns,
(Representing ...
(The Maryknoll Sisters, Maryknoll Fathers & Brothers, Maryknoll Lay Missioners and the Maryknoll Affiliates ) published an absolutely horrifying paper on Global Climate Change on May 9, 2007.
What makes it horrifying to me is, they have by way of this paper, unapologetically taken the opportunity to announce their support for and shared solidarity with The Earth Charter, its principles so thereby its founders and endorsers who we all know includes Maurice Strong, Mikhail Gorbachev, Ruud Lubbers, Steven C. Rockefeller and so on… Where does the Roman Catholic Church stand on networking with this type of social environmental, pagan rooted organization?

Please see: “GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE: The most critical challenge in the 21st century -- Reflections from the Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns “

- This tiny gets you partway there should the longer link below get cut.

This is the Home Page for Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns

Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns “Ecology” page prominently links directly to Earth Charter, Earth Charter USA, and Worldwatch Institute in the left-hand column.
Maryknoll Home Page

My main concern is, even if this group is considered an element of Liberation Theology, (which according to the wiki link on the topic you shared yesterday, was “strongly opposed” by Pope Benedict when he was Cardinal, ) it is still, along with thousands of other Catholic (and Protestant) social organizations,working toward the same goals as secular new age organizations while apparently in good standing with The Vatican. I'm aware of the 2003 document on The New Age put out by the Vatican, so they are very aware of the movement and it's spiritual danger and it's outreach. Is anything further done to discourage participation and association of its membership when they are clearly working to promote new age initiatives such as The Earth Charter etc.?

I’ll carefully consider your response, and I am aware of the recent communiqué from the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith regarding Maryknoll priest Father Roy Bourgeois and his pending excommunication. This was a “good” Vatican step and has nothing to do with Maryknoll/Roman Catholic Church/Vatican and its participation with the goals of the Earth Charter as well as the UN. The ”common good” vs evil argument holds no weight in my view, when it comes to placing a seal of approval and working with an organization such as the UN, which is itself the foundation supporting nearly everything and everyone we here are sounding alarms about here. Regarding the excommunication of Father Bourgeois, there is no official communiqué that makes any logical or spiritual sense to me that can explain why a priest can be excommunicated for being a participant in a ordination ceremony of a woman, but the doors of fellowship and communication be wide open to non-Catholics of every religious persuasion for dialogue, no matter what faith they profess. The Vatican’s association with the UN will be under even closer scrutiny as the deadline draws closer for the full implementation of the Millennium Development Goals. In order to meet Goal Number 5 “Improve Maternal Health” which is behind schedule because of an “unmet need for family planning” someone is going to compromise or the goal won’t be met Progress on this aspect of #5 is being made as noted in this 2005
Brasilia Declaration:
The Millennium Development Goals
and Sexual and Reproductive Health and Rights in the 2005 World Summit

This Thursday, 25 September 2008 address by THE HOLY SEE DELEGATION AT THE 63rd SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE UNITED NATIONS ORGANIZATION ON MILLENNIUM DEVELOPMENT GOALS reveals The Vatican is very aware of the situation.
“With only seven years remaining until the end of the MDGs campaign, it is important that we focus upon the goals in the Millennium Declaration which were agreed upon by our Heads of State.
To debate and create new targets, such as those on sexual and reproductive health, risks introducing practices and policies detrimental to human dignity and sustainable development, distracting our focus from the original goals and diverting the necessary resources from the more basic and urgent needs.”

It will be interesting to watch how this all plays out. I don't think after all the efforts to implement the goals, the UN is going to concede defeat on #5. Will the Vatican compromise and do what is best for the “Common Good”,i.e. issue a “new” Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith document restating its position, or hopefully, as I pray, sever all ties with the UN for the sake of the unborn and the Right to Life?
11:04 I've really opened a hornet's nest. Analyzing the messianic movement is dangerous stuff. This should be interesting.
Leave Joyce alone.

She is a very good person.


The Terminator
My oh my....
The hornet's nest is so interesting in action when it is excited. You do assume too much.

what do Hillary and Ernest have in common?

Pork bellies


Fork jellies?

Simply delightful!
Go to bed.

You need your sleep.

Trying to torment Joyce takes up wayyyyyy too much energy.

Tomorrow's another day.

Good night.


The Sandman

Following a cue from your post regarding the Theosophy and Alice Bailey commentaries on Yoga Sutras, I went over to Amazon to check it out. Back in the day when I did yoga, the teacher would read the sutras and various commentaries. It was interesting to see that not only did Alice Bailey write some published by Lucis Publishing but also Osho wrote them too. I became interested in that since it was Osho who commented to Solana's mother that she was "pregnant with God"

To the Terminator....
You've been reading too many comic books. Which Joyce are you talking about...the one at the link or the one who posts here?

Dear observers, you are seeing the New Age in action. It is not some dry academic organization that you link to. Why else would these individuals get so excited about someone looking into the messianic movement? If nothing scares the ---- out of you, this should do it. This is not some tame academic research about the future.
Nightie Night,

Mr. Sandman will bring you good dreams. Just leave Joyce alone. She means well, even to you who have often been unkind to her. She's a good person and God loves her and YOU.

Watchman (Yawn)
Watchman, which Joyce are you referring to, the one at the link or the one who posts here? Which Joyce is being protected from criticism like Obama is? Why is analysis of the messianic movement so threatening?
Anonymous 2:35 pm,

I thought both the article Constance posted, and the article you posted have information about the New Age that is true.

The SSPX seems be accusing Vatican II of ushering in New Age to Catholicism, so even though I do agree with SSPX positions on salvation and many other things for that matter, that is an interesting problem and the article you sent would have come out of the part of the church that supports Vatican II.

What do you think about it?


I assumed you had written about Leonard Swidler in the past... however I was unable to either open the links you provided or the articles concerning him.. The goal was to highlight this idea of interfaith dialogue and see how it is being used to usher in confusion and the New Age thinking that seems to be prevalent today.

See for an excellent recap on 02-06-09 for the Vatican stand on Williamson and the SSPX. No reinstatement has occurred for Williamson. The lifting of excom has not changed the a divinis (in separation) of SSPX.

De Chardin predates Vatican II by decades. The above SSPX article is typical anti-VII and anti-pope rhetoric.
Let's cut out the personal attacks on all! They remind me of when I was in grade school and saw bad playground behavior of this type!

You are getting at what I was trying to bring out. The paradigm shift is that now the social issues become the focus and the reason to join together. We put aside our religious differences to work for the common good. The Common good, be it climate change, fighting AIDs, global poverty and hunger,etc.

It is not only the Catholic Church that is doing this. Rick Warren is a proponent of the same thing...having "faith-based" organizations, Jews, Muslims, Chrisitans work together to solve the global giants as he calls them.

Obama, same thing.. Look at his faith-based office, okay he's a politician, not a religious leader so theoretically he can't do otherwise.

Take a good look at the partners, everyone from Bnai Brith to the Methodist Church to UN to the Christian Coalition of America...I

If you listen to the news media today, all the emphasis is on working together, whether it be the global economy, peace, hunger etc. There is this idea that if we don't act together we will not succeed solving all the problems.

The large global institutions whether it's the World Council of Churches or the World Bank, IMF, UN etc will have to solve the global problems.

This "shift" that is taking place seems to line up very nicely with the New Age goals of bringing us into the Age of Aquarius..

The ones who want to hang on to the distinctives of their faith might find that they are "out of the loop" so to speak.

Just want to post a link that Bjorn Farmer put on his site about the Vatican and AoC patching up their differences:

On a slightly different note ( although always somewhat related) here's an idea for a Cyborg Buddha:

and Singularity University:

and here's a very interesting talk on a book called "Born to be Good" :

Here's the full length video...the talk takes place from some kind of church in California and the beginning the sound is a little low but it gets better a couple of seconds into the video:

It's worth listening to...towards the end he talks about Obama and talks about who he appeals to what is "good" in people...

He is editor of the "Greater Good Magazine"

Hi Joyce,
Thanks for sharing that link about Spain and Vatican. I hadn't seen it yet on Bjorn's blog. Very interesting
developments. -Rudi

Let me get this straight now. It's perfectly acceptable for Joyce to do her "research" in order to post foot-long rants attacking Orthodox Jews and traditional Catholics for their beliefs for nearly a year now (the past 10 months?) - but it is NOT acceptable for one lone poster to do his/her OWN research to investigate and expose Joyce???

Also, other anonymous posters have expressed concern that Joyce may be a disinformation agent. Usually, when an "innocent" person is accused of something serious, there is OUTRAGE. Where is Joyce's "outrage" at being called a disinformation agent?

No, Constance - this is not the stuff that usually happens in a school yard "playgound." And, Rudi - maybe you are the one who needs to "grow up."

There is a nauseating double standard on this blog regarding just who has the RIGHT to research and expose whom - and which religious beliefs!!!
Hi Rudi,

Re:What makes it horrifying to me is, they have by way of this paper, unapologetically taken the opportunity to announce their support for and shared solidarity with The Earth Charter, its principles so thereby its founders and endorsers who we all know includes Maurice Strong, Mikhail Gorbachev, Ruud Lubbers, Steven C. Rockefeller and so on… Where does the Roman Catholic Church stand on networking with this type of social environmental, pagan rooted organization?

First, I do not interpret your question as being disrespectful.

As a Catholic, I don't have ANY use for these Maryknoll shenanigans either. Moreover, I am willing to be the FIRST to drop the hammer on this or any other religious order that is officially peddling New Age teachings under the guise of "Catholic Christianity."
I don't think I can make it much plainer than that.

It would take me too long here to get into everything going on within the religious orders of Roman Catholicism. Sufficient to say that most have been infiltrated to some degree.

Regarding Maryknoll, it has been infiltrated by the New Age Movement and Liberation Theology.

Again, many of the Roman Catholic religious orders have been thus infiltrated - which makes life a living martyrdom for orthodox Catholic Christian members who choose to remain in these orders and "fight the good fight."

The only reason I can think of as to why the Pope doesn't suppress these orders is because he doesn't want to make the good suffer along with the bad. Like when Our Lord explained about not wanting to destroy the "weeds" for fear of destroying the "wheat" along eith the weeds.

In any case I haven't got time right now because I have to get ready for Mass, but when I get back, I will give you the lowdown on Maryknoll.

As it stands right now, I will NOT give them money when I receive material from them in the mail.

All I can say for now is that no religious order is indispensible to Christianity or to the Church, and if things get bad enough, the Pope can suppress them.
Thanks Susanna,
I'm looking forward to reading more of your input about Maryknoll etc.
Susanna - thank you for the info.

Hi Rudi,

First, I apologize to everyone else for the length of this comment.

Anyone who doesn't want to read it by all means just simply collapse it and move on.

This is regarding the Maryknolls, Earth Charter, etc..

But first, I think we should go back a bit in time. Have you ever heard of Bella Dodd? She was a leader of the Communist Party of America - CPUSA - in the 1930s and 1940s and claimed that Soviet strategy actually included infiltrating the Roman Catholic priesthood for the purpose of destroying the faith of Catholics from within.

Something interesting happened, however:

On Tuesday, August 5, 1952 she(Dodd) publicly announced that on April 7th of the same year, she was received back into the Roman Catholic Church. Not being able to secure her baptismal certificate from Italy after inquiry, she was therefore conditionally baptized by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen in St. Patrick's Cathedral, New York.

In her book, School of Darkness (1954) she states that that Communist Party's structure "was in reality a device to control the 'common man'".[4]

She also claimed that the communist party actively infiltrated agents into seminaries; and she told her friend Alice von Hildebrand, the theologian, that "when she was an active party member, she had dealt with no fewer than four cardinals within the Vatican 'who were working for us'."

Here is a link to Bella Dodd's book SCHOOL OF DARKNESS which can be read for free online.

While I am certainly not into Masonic and "Reds-under-the-bed" conspiracy theories, I believe that it is nevertheless true that what is often lost on people, is the fact that both Communism AND the New Age Movement were - and still are - BOTH tools of Freemasonry and their policy of Church infiltration as laid out in the infamous ALTA VENDITA and other genuine Masonic documents recognized by the Popes.

The following is from THE JESUITS by the late former Jesuit priest Father Malachi Martin. I don't necessarily agree with everything Father Martin had to say, but when it comes to the advocates of "liberation theology," he was spot on.

According to Father Martin, Miguel D'Escoto Brockman of the Maryknoll Fathers was among the CHARTER MEMBERS of the Sandanista leadership.

"... by the early seventies, at least seven years before their grab for power, the Sandinista leaders openly proclaimed their ultimate aim: to create a Marxist society in Nicaragua to serve as the womb from which Marxist revolution throughout Central America would be born. "Revolution throughout the Americas" was the slogan.
From their beginnings as a group, when they were nothing more than rag-tag guerrillas, bank robbers, and hit-and-run terrorists, the Sandinistas understood full well that they had no hope of installing a Marxist regime in 91.6 percent Roman Catholic Nicaragua unless they could enlist - in effect, inhale - the active cooperation of the Catholic clergy, together with suitably altered [Roman Catholic] Church doctrine and [Roman Catholic] Church structure.

Mere passive connivance on the part of the clergy would not be enough. If the Sandinistas wanted the very soul of the people, they knew the road: [Roman] Catholicism was inextricably bound up in the warp and woof of Nicaraguan culture, language, way of thinking, and outlook, and was integral to all the hope of the people. ...

The Nicaraguan people were the first guinea pigs on whom the theory was experimentally tried. And the priests who were charter members in the Sandinista leadership - Jesuit Fernando Cardenal Ernesto Cardenal, Miguel D'Escoto Brockman of the Maryknoll Fathers, Jesuit Alvaro Arguello, Edgar Parrales of the Managua diocese - made the experiment doubly blessed and likely to succeed.

If such men, duly ordained as priests, could successfully get this new "theological" message across - that the Sandinista revolution was really a religious matter sanctioned by legitimate Church spokesmen - they would have both the [Roman] Catholic clergy and the people as allies in a Marxist-style revolution by armed violence.

As far as I know Miguel D'Escoto Brockman is still suspended "a divinis" since 1986 on account of his refusal to quit his government post. Although I am not seeing this mentioned in many current reports, this is mentioned in a March 27, 1986 New York times article:

The most important religious events will come later in the week when the Roman Catholic Primate, Miguel Cardinal Obando y Bravo, is to celebrate several masses and lead a religious procession in Managua.
The clandestine rebel radio station has been urging Nicaraguans to join the Cardinal's procession as a sign of political defiance. The Cardinal has been a strong critic of the ruling Sandinista Front, which he says is persecuting the church, and rebel leaders consider him a hero.

The Sandinista press expresses outrage at the radio appeals. An editorial in the official Sandinista newspaper, Barricada, urged Cardinal Obando to disassociate himself from those who were ''calling on Nicaraguans to attend religious acts to show political opposition to the revolution.''

The Cardinal has not responded to Barricada's call. He did, however, reject an invitation to debate Foreign Minister Miguel d'Escoto Brockman, a Maryknoll priest under suspension for refusing to quit his Government post, on national television more....


Brockman's suspension is also mentioned in a September 16, 2008 Los Angeles times article:


Father Miguel d’Escoto, fiery foreign minister when Nicaragua’s Sandinista guerrillas held power, takes on a more diplomatic role as head of the General Assembly.

By Richard Boudreaux
September 16, 2008

Father Miguel d’Escoto stopped saying Mass 23 years ago when the Vatican suspended his priestly functions for refusing to quit Nicaragua’s revolutionary government. But he never stopped preaching.

From university lecterns, slum soup kitchens and diplomatic forums, he has voiced moral wrath over the plight of the poor and the might of wealthy nations, particularly the United States.

Today he is being promoted to a far bigger pulpit: the presidency of the United Nations General Assembly more....


Catholic Liberation Centers

Meanwhile, Liberation Theology is providing the Vatican with one of its greatest challenges ever. The undisputed proponents of Catholic Liberation Theology propaganda and activism in the United States are the Maryknoll, Paulist, and Jesuit orders.

Maryknoll, New York, is the international center of the Maryknoll Fathers and Sisters, many of whom have given their lives aiding communist terrorists in Central and Latin America.

In the United States, Maryknoll militancy is manifested in their media productions, including films glorifying the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, and books published by Maryknoll’s Orbis Books.

The older Paulist Order and its Paulist Press echo the liberation message in such leading titles as: Lea Anne Hunter’s and Magdalen Sienkiewicz’s Learning Clubs for the Poor, Gregory Pierce’s Activism That Makes Sense: Congregations and Community Organizations, and John Coleman’s An American Strategic Theology.

Most students of Liberation Theology are familiar with the Jesuits, primarily because Gustavo Gutierrez, father of modern Catholic liberationism, comes from that order.

The works of other Jesuit advocates widely read in the United States include Juan Luis Segundo’s five-volume A Theology for Artisans of a New Humanity and Arthur F. McGovern’s Marxism: an American Perspective.

McGovern, a Jesuit professor at the University of Detroit, contends that much diversity exists among liberation advocates in regard to their commitment to Marxism. He does not, however, deny that they derive their insights from overtly Marxist critiques of society.

Catholic Liberation Theology has posed such a significant threat to U.S. policy at home and abroad that the Reagan White House launched a campaign in 1984 to educate U.S. Catholic bishops against Marxist ideology. That campaign helped conservative critics of the U.S. Catholic Conference disseminate their message to the hierarchy.

The following is a history of the Maryknoll Catholic Foreign Mission Society of America

The following might give you a hint about where the church stands on the Earth Charter.


Declaration of the Global Superstate






With regard to the Church's presence at the United Nations General Assembly:

.........Human rights must include the right to religious freedom, he said, adding that the activity of the United Nations in recent years had ensured that public debate gave space to viewpoints inspired by a religious vision in all its dimensions, including ritual, worship, education, dissemination of information and the freedom to profess and choose religion. It was inconceivable then that believers should have to suppress a part of themselves –- their faith -– in order to be active citizens. It should never be necessary to deny God in order to enjoy one’s rights. The rights associated with religion were all the more in need of protection if they were considered to clash with a prevailing secular ideology or with majority religious positions of an exclusive nature.

.........The full guarantee of religious liberty could not be limited to the free exercise of worship, but had to give due consideration to the public dimension of religion, and hence to the possibility of believers playing their part in building the social order. Refusal to recognize the contribution to society that was rooted in the religious dimension and in the quest for the Absolute -– by its nature, expressing communion between persons –- would effectively privilege an individualistic approach and would fragment the unity of the person.

.........He said his presence at the Assembly “is a sign of esteem for the United Nations, and it is intended to express the hope that the Organization will increasingly serve as a sign of unity between States and an instrument of service to the entire human family”. It also demonstrated the willingness of the Catholic Church to offer her proper contribution to building international relations in a way that allowed every person and every people to feel they could make a difference. In a manner that was consistent with her contribution in the ethnical and moral sphere and the free activity of her faithful, the Church also worked for the realization of those goals through the international activity of the Holy See. Indeed, the Holy See had always had a place at the assemblies of the Nations, thereby manifesting its specific character as a subject in the international domain. As the United Nations recently confirmed, the Holy See thereby made its contribution according to the dispositions of international law, helped to define that law and made appeal to it.


The difference between Fr. Roy Bourgeois' excommunication and the Church's willingness to dialogue with persons of different faiths is that Bourgeois is guilty of willful disobedience in something that is not merely a matter of Church discipline but a matter of Catholic Christian dogma.

As a priest, Bourgeois was formally participating in a sacreligious attempt to corrupt/invalidate one of the Sacraments (Holy Orders) which Catholics believe are "outward signs instituted by Christ to give grace." ( I am respectfully aware that you don't agree with this, but this is what Catholics believe).

On the other hand, when the Church talks about "dialogue" it is intended to mean striving towards mutual understanding. (Like what we are doing right now)

I have always been taught that understanding another person's beliefs or points of view is NOT the same thing as agreeing with them. What the Church does is what St. Paul recommends "Test everything and keep whatever is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21

The so-called "women's ordination movement" in the Catholic Church goes tandem with New Age thinking. It is all about power, free sex (heterosexual and homosexual) abortion and New Age religion (i.e. Gaia worship, etc.).

Here is the bottom line about where I stand: If I were to walk into my church and saw a woman vested in preparation for "celebrating Mass" my husband and I would immediately get up and walk out!!! We would contact our bishop and if we didn't get any results we would contact an organization like the St. Joseph's Foundation, who, after an investigation, would bring our complaint directly to the Vatican. thankfully, so far, nothing like this has ever happened in my diocese.

I am including a few more articles having to do with Maryknoll Fr. Roy Bourgeois, participation in a so-called "women's ordination" ceremony in August 2008. Caveat: Several of the following reports are from the National Catholic Reporter which is among the more liberal publications that go by the name of "Catholic."






The following is from Catholic Online



See also


The following is from the more conservative NATIONAL CATHOLIC REGISTER.

Note how light the Maryknoll spokesperson makes of the excommunication which is the gravest penalty a Catholic can incur. Just for the record, excommunication is not something the Catholic Church does to a Catholic. It is something a Catholic does to himself by way of beliefs or actions that put him beyond the Catholic pale in terms of matters of faith and morals. All the church does is to formally define what the excommunicated person has already done.


See also

Father Roy Bourgeois was also a proponent of Liberation Theology


I can tell you one thing regarding the Pope's relation with the UN. He will NOT concede on issues such as abortion, "gay marriage," etc.

One more thing. Papal Infallibility is a Catholic dogma that is often misunderstood by non-Catholics. It doesn't mean that Catholics have to march in lockstep with everything the Pope says or does. We Catholics can respectfully disagree with the Pope in matters not having to do strictly with faith and morals.

Having said that, I will say that while I don't know how this business of the Pope's relations with the UN is going to play out, I am prepared to avoid knee jerk reactions to things that may appear controversial on the surface and give him the benefit of the doubt unless I have a solid take-it-to-the-bank reason not to.

I hope you have found this information helpful.

Rudi, if I were the Pope, I would sever all ties with the UN and tell them to go pound sand. Then I would suppress the Maryknolls and declare them to no longer be a "Catholic" organization......and excommunicate a few renegades that I feel have been allowed to run loose for far too long.

But that is not how the Vatican works and I am sure that I would probably create a bigger problem than the one I was trying to solve.

Good thing I am not the Pope! :-)
It looks like this is another group that likes the UN Millennium Development goals. I found it on a Muslims interfaith dialogue website, interestingly enough:

Thank-You , Susanna for taking what obviously was a great deal of time to
respond to my concerns. The information about Communist/Marxist infiltration of the RC priesthood in Nicaragua was an eye-opener for me. Everything you wrote was helpful , but this in particular added a dimension that was extremely beneficial to have as background . Father Miguel d’Escoto ‘s recent “promotion” to the presidency of the United Nations General Assembly certainly won’t leave any of us sleeping better at night.
We “wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” This earth and most of its religious leaders and peoples are engaging in dialogues, they hope will result in some kind of universal brotherhood amongst mankind, which in my opinion only serves in the long run, to dilute and compromise the Gospel. By joining ourselves to “the other” in matters of faith, we are in effect
denying the Lord before men. If after our listening to “the other”, we gain understanding of what they believe, and our response is to simply nod and smile approvingly, without distinguishing error from truth, we fail in the great commission. We shouldn’t quarrel or argue regarding the Gospel, but neither should we for the sake of peace ever by our continued presence, condone a false presumption of peace. If the purpose of the dialoging is to understand what “the other” believes, once you understand, I see no point in continuing the dialogue. Discussion may be helpful at times between Christians of differing denominations, to help us understand each others prospective, but in my view inter religious discussions are pointless for lasting peace when God has said, apart from Him there will be no peace - when these dialogues are efforts to merge all religions into one peaceful harmonic group, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim or pagan. No one should walk away in anger, neither is it from my perspective, relevant to stay and discuss their differences further. We all know very well which “peaceful” religion we’re all trying to pacify…and the world leaders know also. In the end, the only purpose for these gatherings is to influence, the minds of the already peaceful
religious and non-religious masses who have for hundreds of years managed to practice their religion or non-religion without hostile attacks from “the other”. The “lukewarm” mess that inevitably will result
from these dialogues, will be a “one world religion” that is offensive to no-one. A faith no-one will ever become a martyr for in order to defend. This will never deter the Islamic jihadist “martyr” who kill
“the other” in the name of Allah. Nor will it silence those who will not flinch in the face of
martyrdom at the hand of “others” rather than by their silence deny their Lord.

To myself, it is like when you said , “If I were to walk into my church and saw a woman vested in preparation for "celebrating Mass" my husband and I would immediately get up and walk out!!!”
You would take all measures necessary to show publically what you believe in your heart.
To spend years on end dialoging, or for the sake of peace, remain neutral on the issue, would for yourself, not be an option consistent with your beliefs. It would leave the impression to others in
the congregation, that it wasn’t worth standing up for.

How much more should we as believers, not compromise the Truth when it comes to the affairs of men, and the world, if we really believe Jesus when He said, “ there is no way to the Father but through me?"
I really appreciate your response and regarding your “P.S.” very encouraged! -Rudi
Hi Rudi,

Re: If the purpose of the dialoging is to understand what “the other” believes, once you understand, I see no point in continuing the dialogue.

You are right. You can probably only go so far with dialogue. But the other purpose dialogue serves is to enable various religious groups to understand what they AGREE on in hopes that they might be willing to work together to promote the common good for the sake of those rock bottom religious truths they DO agree on - while honestly acknowledging differences of course.

No honest person should be willing to tolerate "unity" at the expense of the truth......which, at the end of the day, would be no true unity at all.

When I say "work together" I mean "work together" for a common goal that is beneficial to everyone regardless of the religious differences. I do not mean compromising with the truth. Nor do I mean "merging all religions into one peaceful harmonic group, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim or pagan."

Neither did the Second Vatican Council promote this kind of "merging" in its decree on ecumenism.

Merging all religions into one peaceful harmonic group where everyone pretends to agree on everything, sit around the campfire and sing Cumbaya is precisely the false kind of ecumenism that we must AVOID.

It is the kind of "ecumenism" (actually "indifferentism" or syncretism ) that is promoted by Freemasonry.

As a Catholic, I have been taught that the error of "indifferentism" is the false notion that "one religion is as good as another."

Maybe certain liberal elements within Catholicism are willing to embrace indifferentism, but if they do they are going against the official teachings of the Church.

From what you have written, I think I am safe in assuming that as an orthodox Protestant you would likewise condemn "indifferentism".....and that is as it should be.

If I didn't believe that my religion was the "one true religion," I would have no business being or remaining in it any more than you would have any business being or remaining in yours if you did not honestly believe that yours was the "one true religion."

But that doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't charitably join together for the sake of the authentic Christology we believe in common in order to defend it against those New Age/gnostic errors that sever Christ and represent the "spirit of Antichrist."
Why are so many people "worshipping" Barack Obama and won't hear anything bad about him?

They've been hypnotized!

A search for "Obama using hynosis" came up with a 67 page PDF doc written by an anonymous professional exposing him!
Hi nice Blog.A hypnotic procedure is used to encourage and evaluate responses to suggestions. self hypnosis scripts When using hypnosis, one person is guided by another to respond to suggestions for changes in subjective experience.
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